539: The Leap - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #539 | June 25, 2021 539: The Leap Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 539 集 | 2021 年 6 月 25 日 539：飞跃 注：《This American Life》是为耳朵而生，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Now, a man who took a leap into the unknown, back in 1947.
序言 Ira Glass Now，一个跃入未知世界的人，时间回到 1947 年。
He was a New York City bus driver named William Cimillo.
他是纽约市的一名公交车司机，名叫威廉·西米洛 (William Cimillo)。
For a while, he became the most famous bus driver in the country.
一时间，他成为了全国最著名的公交车司机。
Though, I think what that really means is that he was the only famous bus driver in the country.
不过，我认为这真正意味着他是这个国家唯一著名的公交车司机。
He told his story on television.
他在电视上讲述了他的故事。
Hello again.
又好。
Do you ever think of getting away from it all?
你有没有想过摆脱这一切？
A bus driver had that same feeling.
一位公交车司机也有同样的感觉。
And he made every headline in the country.
他成为了该国的每一个头条新闻。
So I asked him to come up here and tell us all about it.
所以我请他到这里来告诉我们一切。
Hello, Bill.
你好，比尔。
Pleasure to meet you.
很高兴认识你。
Faye Emerson Thank you.
费伊·爱默生 谢谢。
Come on.
快点。
Sit down, and let's talk.
坐下来，我们谈谈。
Hey, Charlie, you got a couple of Pepsis here for us?
嘿，查理，你给我们准备了几瓶百事可乐吗？
Pepsis right here.
百事可乐就在这里。
Faye Emerson Thanks, Charlie.
费伊·爱默生 谢谢，查理。
Yes, ma'am.
是的，女士。
Ira Glass OK.
艾拉·格拉斯 好的。
So I just want to describe what's happening here.
所以我只想描述一下这里发生的事情。
It's black and white.
它是黑白的。
The set of this TV show is a living room, but like a complete living room with everything.
这部电视剧的场景是一个客厅，但是却是一个完整的客厅，什么都有。
Window blinds, paintings on the walls, there's a credenza.
百叶窗、墙上的画、还有一个书柜。
This was back before TV figured out that the only part of the living room that they actually need for a talk show is the couch.
那是在电视发现脱口秀真正需要的客厅唯一部分是沙发之前。
So OK.
那么好吧。
A butler-- yes, a butler-- hands the host, Faye Emerson, a silver tray with a bottle of Pepsi and two glasses.
一名管家——是的，是一名管家——递给主人费耶·爱默生一个银托盘，托盘上有一瓶百事可乐和两个玻璃杯。
Faye pours her guest a soda and--
菲给她的客人倒了一杯苏打水，然后——
Wonderful.
太棒了。
William Cimillo Well, it's one of those things.
William Cimillo 嗯，这是其中之一。
I was on the job for about 20 years, and I really got tired of it all, you know.
我从事这份工作大约有 20 年，你知道，我真的厌倦了这一切。
Up and down, every day, the same people, the same stops, nickels, dimes, transfers, and-- well, this morning, I thought I'd try something different.
每天起起落落，同样的人，同样的车站，五分钱，一毛钱，换乘，还有——好吧，今天早上，我想我应该尝试一些不同的东西。
So I come out of my garage.
所以我从车库里出来。
Instead of making a right turn to go off to my route, I thought I'd make a left turn.
我没有右转走我的路线，而是左转。
And that was the first thought you'd really given to it.
这是你真正想到的第一个想法。
Just, you did it on impulse.
只是，你一时冲动而已。
That's right.
这是正确的。
So I made this left turn, and I went west towards George Washington Bridge.
所以我左转，向西驶向乔治华盛顿大桥。
It was a beautiful morning.
这是一个美丽的早晨。
The sun was shining.
阳光明媚。
So I got on the other side of the Washington Bridge-- I was in Jersey then-- and I stopped for breakfast.
所以我到了华盛顿桥的另一边——当时我在泽西岛——然后停下来吃早餐。
After breakfast, Cimillo got back in his bus, and he didn't drive to the Bronx to pick up his passengers on his usual route.
早餐后，西米洛回到了他的公共汽车上，他没有按照平常的路线开车去布朗克斯接乘客。
He headed south on US Route 1.
他沿着美国一号公路向南行驶。
Cimillo had been a bus driver with what was then called the Surface Transportation System of New York for 17 years, without any problems.
西米洛在当时的纽约地面交通系统担任公交车司机已有 17 年，没有遇到任何问题。
Went to work every day, never complained, people said.
人们说，每天都去上班，从不抱怨。
As he drove further and further away from New York City, and from his job, and from his, you know, life, he switched the destination sign from Subway to Special.
当他开车离纽约市越来越远，远离他的工作，远离他的，你知道的，生活时，他把目的地标志从地铁变成了特别。
Hours passed.
几个小时过去了。
I kept riding.
我继续骑行。
Before I knew it, I was in Washington.
不知不觉中，我已经到了华盛顿。
And I was right in front of the White House.
我就在白宫前面。
Never been there.
从来没有去过那里。
Never.
绝不。
So I decided to look around.
所以我决定四处看看。
I looked around for 15, 20 minutes.
我环顾四周15、20分钟。
When I come back, there's a policeman standing by the bus.
当我回来时，公共汽车旁站着一名警察。
And he asked me, he says, what are you doing here with this great big bus in a restricted parking area?
他问我，他说，你把这辆大巴士停在限制停车区做什么？
Right in front of the White House, wasn't it?
就在白宫前面，不是吗？
Right in front of the place.
就在这个地方的前面。
I said, I'm waiting for a delegation of union officials.
我说，我在等工会官员代表团。
They're up there on business.
他们在那里出差。
And--
还有——
Pretty fast thinking.
思维速度相当快。
Ira Glass Cimillo got back in his bus, kept driving south.
艾拉·格拉斯·西米洛回到巴士上，继续向南行驶。
He said he even picked up a hitchhiker, a sailor, who rode with him for two days.
他说他甚至搭了一个搭便车的水手，和他一起搭了两天。
Then, on the third day, Cimillo and his bus arrived in Hollywood, Florida, just north of Miami.
然后，第三天，西米洛和他的巴士抵达迈阿密北部的佛罗里达州好莱坞。
It was late.
已经很晚了。
He said he went for a swim.
他说他去游泳了。
--moonlight bathing.
——月光沐浴。
I enjoyed that very much.
我非常喜欢这样。
Oh, what a thrill.
哦，多么激动啊。
William Cimillo It was.
威廉·西米洛 是的。
William Cimillo was 1,300 miles from the Bronx.
威廉·西米洛 (William Cimillo) 距布朗克斯 1,300 英里。
1,300 miles from New York traffic, from the daily grind.
距离纽约 1,300 英里，远离日常的交通堵塞。
And he was almost out of money.
而他的钱也快没了。
He went to the Gulfstream Park Race Track.
他去了湾流公园赛马场。
He liked to gamble.
他喜欢赌博。
We do not know how much money he put down, but he left the track with $2.60.
我们不知道他投入了多少钱，但他带着 2.60 美元离开了赛道。
Same day, he also went to the closest Western Union and sent this telegram to his boss.
当天，他还去了最近的西联汇款，给他的老板发了这封电报。
Quote, "With disabled bus number 1310, stop.
引用：“1310 路公交车有故障，请停车。
In need of $50, stop.
需要 50 美元，停下来。
Send money to Hollywood, Florida, stop.
寄钱到佛罗里达州好莱坞，停下来。
Cimillo."
西米洛。”
So I'm waiting at the telegraph office for the money, and two policemen come over.
于是我在电报局等钱，两个警察走了过来。
They says, you're wanted.
他们说，你被通缉了。
I said, what for?
我说那是为了什么？
They says, for stealing a bus.
他们说，因为偷了一辆公共汽车。
I said, oh no. I didn't steal that bus.
我说，哦不。我没有偷那辆公共汽车。
I said, they gave it to me.
我说，他们给我了。
Well, one word led to the other.
嗯，一言以蔽之。
They said, you're still arrested.
他们说，你仍然被捕。
Well, today on our radio program, what happens when you take a crazy leap into the unknown, having no idea if it's going to work out, or what's going to happen next.
好吧，今天在我们的广播节目中，当你疯狂地跃入未知世界，不知道它是否会成功，或者接下来会发生什么时，会发生什么。
Will you end up on a beach in Florida, happy and carefree?
您最终会在佛罗里达州的海滩上快乐而无忧无虑吗？
Will you end up in handcuffs?
你最终会被戴上手铐吗？
We have three stories of people risking everything in their lives, including the surprising thing that happened next to this bus driver, William Cimillo.
我们有三个关于人们冒着生命危险的故事，其中包括发生在公交车司机威廉·西米洛 (William Cimillo) 身边的令人惊讶的事情。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
You did what everybody always wanted to do.
你做了大家一直想做的事。
Just get away from everything.
远离一切。
That's what I wanted to do.
这就是我想做的。
Talking about getting away from it all.
谈论摆脱这一切。
Well, if you are planning to get away from it all, you may like to know that no matter where you go, you're almost sure to find friendly, sparkling, Pepsi-Cola waiting for you.
好吧，如果您打算远离这一切，您可能想知道，无论您走到哪里，您几乎肯定会找到友好的、起泡的百事可乐在等着您。
And of course, feel free to pop open a delicious Pepsi as you listen to this next act, Act One.
当然，当您聆听下一幕“第一幕”时，请随意打开美味的百事可乐。
By the way, we are not getting paid for that at all.
顺便说一句，我们根本没有为此获得报酬。
Act One, Busman's Holiday.
第一幕，巴士曼的假期。
OK.
好的。
So you remember where we left off.
所以你记得我们离开的地方。
Cimillo had just been arrested in Hollywood, Florida, by two police officers.
西米洛刚刚在佛罗里达州好莱坞被两名警察逮捕。
Joe Richman is the one who dug up this old TV interview, and he picks up the story from there.
乔·里奇曼 (Joe Richman) 挖出了这段旧电视采访，并从那里继承了这个故事。
After the arrest, two New York detectives and a mechanic were sent down to Florida to bring Cimillo back, along with his bus.
被捕后，两名纽约侦探和一名机械师被派往佛罗里达州，将西米洛和他的巴士带回来。
The mechanic drove the bus, but Cimillo told people later, the mechanic couldn't really handle it.
机械师负责驾驶巴士，但西米洛后来告诉人们，机械师实在无法应付。
His driving made the detectives nervous.
他的驾驶让侦探们感到紧张。
So the cops actually put Cimillo back behind the wheel.
所以警察实际上让西米洛重新开车。
And then right before they arrived in York City, they switched drivers again.
然后就在他们到达约克市之前，他们再次更换了司机。
They put the mechanic back at the wheel of the bus, and Cimillo dutifully got into his handcuffs.
他们把机械师放回公交车的方向盘上，西米洛尽职尽责地给他戴上手铐。
So here's what happened next.
接下来发生的事情如下。
As the bus pulled up to the steps of the Beach Street Police Station in Manhattan, hundreds of people had gathered, and they were cheering.
当巴士停在曼哈顿海滩街警察局的台阶上时，数百人聚集在一起欢呼。
In photographs, you see Cimillo being led through the crowd by the cops, and he has a huge smile.
在照片中，你可以看到西米洛被警察领着穿过人群，他脸上挂着灿烂的笑容。
He's beaming.
他笑容满面。
Over the time it took to drive back from Florida to New York, news had spread about the busnapping.
在从佛罗里达开车返回纽约的路上，有关公交车被撞的消息已经传开。
William Cimillo had become a folk hero.
威廉·西米洛已成为民间英雄。
William Cimillo.
威廉·西米洛.
The busman who took a holiday.
休假的公交车司机。
And brother, what a holiday.
兄弟，真是一个假期啊。
Just wanted to drive, feel the tang of spring in the air.
只想开车，感受空气中春天的气息。
Busmen in the Bronx greeted their passengers today with a cry, all aboard for Florida!
今天，布朗克斯区的公交车司机们高喊着迎接乘客，他们都上车前往佛罗里达了！
Ah, spring.
啊，春天。
But now, here is Don Elda.
但现在，唐·埃尔达来了。
That was NBC.
那是全国广播公司。
The Daily News wrote, "It must've been a wonderful trip, and we hope Bill's boss will try to understand." From the New York World-Telegram , "We know just how he felt.
《每日新闻》写道：“这一定是一次美妙的旅行，我们希望比尔的老板能够理解。” 《纽约世界电讯报》写道：“我们知道他的感受。
Who hasn't yearned for escape, for change, for fairer scenes?"
谁不曾渴望逃离、渴望改变、渴望更公平的场景？”
From as far away as Michigan, The Traverse City Eagle wrote, "Across the nation today, thousands of office workers and laborers went to their humdrum jobs with hearts a little lighter, because of what William L.
远在密歇根州的《特拉弗斯城之鹰》写道：“今天，在全国范围内，成千上万的办公室职员和体力劳动者心情轻松了一些，开始了他们单调的工作，因为威廉·L·肯尼迪（William L.
Cimillo did to escape the same kind of boredom that fills their ordered lives." Cimillo was indicted on charges of grand larceny.
西米洛这样做是为了逃避他们井然有序的生活中同样的无聊。”西米洛被指控犯有重大盗窃罪。
He was facing up to 10 years in prison.
他面临最高 10 年的监禁。
Cimillo's fellow New York City bus drivers-- who you'd think would be the least sympathetic people in the country to his whole joyride-- they organized a fundraiser to pay his legal fees.
西米洛的纽约市公交车司机同事——你可能认为他们是这个国家对他整个快乐旅程最没有同情心的人——他们组织了一场筹款活动来支付他的律师费。
Letters and telegrams of support came in from around the country.
全国各地纷纷寄来支持的信件和电报。
The court of public opinion was delivering its verdict, and soon, the Surface Transportation System of New York decided to drop the charges.
舆论法庭正在做出裁决，很快，纽约地面交通系统决定撤销指控。
Not only that, they gave him his job back.
不仅如此，他们还给了他工作。
On his first day back on the route, a line of people waited to ride Cimillo's bus.
回到路线的第一天，人们排队等候乘坐西米洛的巴士。
One article reported that after school let out, 350 screaming high school girls tried to get onto his 44-seat bus, ignoring three other buses.
一篇文章报道称，放学后，350 名尖叫的高中女生试图登上他的 44 座巴士，无视其他三辆巴士。
They wanted his autograph.
他们想要他的亲笔签名。
In the end, William Cimillo was incredibly lucky.
最后，威廉·西米洛非常幸运。
He took a huge leap, fled home, cut out on his job, committed a crime, and he got away with it, because people loved the story.
他迈出了一大步，逃回家，辞去了工作，犯了罪，但他逃脱了惩罚，因为人们喜欢这个故事。
For the rest of his life, he was that guy who took a city bus to Florida.
在他的余生中，他就是那个乘坐城市公交车去佛罗里达的人。
He had his day in the sun.
他在阳光下度过了一天。
Joe Richman This is Richard Cimillo, the bus driver's son.
乔·里奇曼（Joe Richman） 这是理查德·西米洛（Richard Cimillo），公交车司机的儿子。
His dad died in 1975.
他的父亲于 1975 年去世。
He just felt like a star, I guess.
我猜他只是感觉自己像个明星。
He was recognized wherever he went.
无论他走到哪里，都会被认出来。
He wasn't just another the bus driver, you know?
他不仅仅是另一个公交车司机，你知道吗？
He was somebody.
他是某人。
I guess that's what he felt.
我想这就是他的感受。
You say it so begrudgingly, about him being a star.
你这么不情愿地说他是明星。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
Because, you know, every time we went out, every place we went, there was always-- you know, it was like a movie star.
因为，你知道，每次我们出去，我们去的每个地方，总是有——你知道，就像电影明星一样。
Let me put it to you that way.
让我这样告诉你吧。
And after a while, I think my mother got tired of it.
过了一段时间，我想我妈妈已经厌倦了。
And I got tired of it.
我厌倦了它。
You know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
But he never got tired of it.
但他从来没有厌倦过。
Richard and his family never found the story as charming as most New Yorkers did, starting with the day their dad stole bus number 1310.
从他们的父亲偷了 1310 路公交车的那一天开始，理查德和他的家人从未像大多数纽约人那样觉得这个故事如此迷人。
Let me explain something to you.
让我向你解释一下。
I was 12 years old at the time.
当时我12岁。
And after I come home from school, my mother was crying.
当我放学回家后，我妈妈哭了。
And I was, well, Ma, why are you crying?
我当时就想，妈，你为什么哭？
And she said, well, he didn't come home.
她说，好吧，他没有回家。
I wonder where he is.
我想知道他在哪里。
Why wouldn't he come home for supper, and all that.
他为什么不回家吃晚饭等等。
And next day, the same thing.
第二天，同样的事情。
He didn't come home.
他没有回家。
Not a phone call.
不是一个电话。
So she called the garage.
于是她给车库打了电话。
They didn't know where he is.
他们不知道他在哪里。
The bus never come back to the garage.
公共汽车永远不会回到车库。
It just disappeared.
它就这样消失了。
And so we used to gather together at my grandmother's house.
所以我们常常在我祖母家聚会。
My mother crying, my grandmother crying, it was like a wake.
我的母亲在哭泣，我的祖母也在哭泣，就像一场惊醒。
I mean, you're 12 years old at the time.
我的意思是，你当时12岁。
What did you think might have happened?
你认为可能发生了什么？
Either the bus ran off the road someplace, maybe went into a lake.
公共汽车要么在某个地方冲出了道路，要么掉进了湖里。
This is me thinking, you know.
这就是我的想法，你知道。
Maybe it was a big accident that nobody knew about.
也许这是一场无人知晓的大事故。
So I really thought, deep down, that he must have died.
所以我内心深处真的认为他一定已经死了。
It wasn't until his dad was arrested in Hollywood, Florida, that the family finally knew what had happened.
直到他的父亲在佛罗里达州好莱坞被捕，家人才终于知道发生了什么事。
Richard says he never sat down with his dad and really talked about why he did what he did, even as an adult.
理查德说，即使作为成年人，他也从未与父亲坐下来真正谈论过他为什么要做他所做的事情。
Was it true his dad just got the idea one morning to spontaneously drive to Florida, like he'd said?
他父亲是不是真的像他说的那样，一天早上突然想到要开车去佛罗里达？
He didn't plan that at all?
他根本就没有这个打算？
Did he really think he'd get away with it?
他真以为自己能逃脱惩罚吗？
And the biggest question--
最大的问题是——
I don't know if my mother ever asked, why didn't you call.
我不知道妈妈有没有问过，你为什么不打电话。
I never asked.
我从来没有问过。
He never called.
他从来没有打过电话。
Not a word.
一言不发。
You know, I looked up to him, he was my father.
你知道，我很尊敬他，他是我的父亲。
But after the Florida incident, I had problems.
但佛罗里达事件发生后，我遇到了问题。
I had problems looking up.
我抬头时遇到问题。
That was a tough time for me.
那对我来说是一段艰难的时期。
Even now, the word he uses when he talks about his dad's bus trip is "embarrassing." But there's someone else in the family who has a completely different take on this.
即使现在，他在谈论父亲的巴士旅行时使用的词仍然是“尴尬”。但家里还有一个人对此有完全不同的看法。
Richard's younger brother, Dennis.
理查德的弟弟丹尼斯。
Quick heads up, their voices are remarkably similar.
快速抬头，他们的声音非常相似。
It's a good thing to me.
这对我来说是一件好事。
To me, he's still my hero, you know?
对我来说，他仍然是我的英雄，你知道吗？
There's one simple reason the two brothers see this so differently.
两兄弟对这一问题的看法如此不同，原因很简单。
Dennis was just a baby when their father disappeared.
当他们的父亲失踪时，丹尼斯还是个婴儿。
He doesn't remember any of it.
他什么都不记得了。
He doesn't remember his mother and grandmother crying.
他不记得他的母亲和祖母哭过。
He didn't think his dad had driven into a lake.
他不认为他的父亲把车开进了湖里。
He didn't picture him dead in an accident.
他没有想到自己会死于一场事故。
Dennis' vision of the whole thing is closer to Easy Rider, if Easy Rider took place on a municipal bus.
丹尼斯对整个事情的看法更接近《轻松骑士》，如果《轻松骑士》发生在一辆市政巴士上。
I could just see my father [CLAP] putting the pedal to the metal and just go and keep on going.
我可以看到我的父亲[鼓掌]踩下踏板，然后继续前进。
In the drive, just looking out the window and driving.
开车的时候，只是看着窗外，开车。
The way my father was, being carefree and saying, you know what?
就像我父亲那样，无忧无虑地说，你知道吗？
I'm just driving.
我只是在开车。
I have nothing on my head.
我头上什么都没有。
I have no pressure today.
我今天没有压力。
I have nothing going on.
我没什么事发生。
Let me keep on going.
让我继续前进。
Dennis has a collection of memorabilia about the bus trip.
丹尼斯收集了一系列有关巴士旅行的纪念品。
He pulls out a large manila folder.
他拿出一个大马尼拉文件夹。
On the front it says, Dad's Event.
正面写着“爸爸的活动”。
There are dozens of old photographs and articles, and a videotape with footage from 1947.
有数十张旧照片和文章，以及一盘 1947 年的录像带。
We go down to the basement to watch it.
我们去地下室观看。
This is from an old newsreel that was taken at the time.
这是当时拍摄的一部旧新闻短片。
It's really short.
真的很短。
That's the bus coming in.
就是公交车进来了。
It's his dad, arriving back in New York.
是他的父亲，回到了纽约。
And right now he's being escorted into the courthouse, going in front of the judge, and being arraigned right now.
现在他正被护送到法院，在法官面前接受传讯。
That's it.
就是这样。
Now, Richard, the older brother, he had told me about the same newsreel.
现在，理查德，哥哥，他告诉我同一部新闻片的事。
He had seen it the week it was actual news, in a movie theater, when he was 12.
当他 12 岁的时候，他在真正新闻发布的那一周在电影院里看过这部电影。
I'm sitting there, and all of a sudden, boom.
我坐在那里，突然间，轰隆隆。
My father's picture is up on the screen.
屏幕上显示着我父亲的照片。
And I'm looking there, I was stunned.
我看着那里，我惊呆了。
You see your father, as a kid, handcuffed, detectives on both sides of him, bringing him into the courthouse.
你看到你的父亲，小时候，戴着手铐，两侧都是侦探，把他带进法院。
I don't know anybody that would feel proud of something like that.
我不知道有谁会为这样的事情感到自豪。
So that's the older brother, Richard.
这就是哥哥理查德。
But here in the basement with Dennis, his take on this--
但在丹尼斯的地下室里，他对此的看法——
I enjoy every minute of it.
我享受其中的每一分钟。
Just makes me idolize him.
简直让我崇拜他。
I wish I could do things like that sometimes.
我希望有时我也能做这样的事情。
In a way, a small way, Dennis has done that.
在某种程度上，在很小的方面，丹尼斯做到了这一点。
He sees himself as a free spirit.
他认为自己是一个自由的人。
He says he got that from his dad.
他说他是从他父亲那里得到的。
He doesn't worry about things too much.
他并不担心太多的事情。
He likes to gamble.
他喜欢赌博。
He started his own businesses distributing beer and soda.
他开始了自己的生意，销售啤酒和苏打水。
He was his own boss, which meant no pension, no paid vacation, no security, no guarantees.
他是自己的老板，这意味着没有养老金、没有带薪假期、没有保障、没有保障。
He says it's different from the life his brother chose.
他说这与他哥哥选择的生活不同。
And Richard, the older brother, would agree with that.
哥哥理查德也会同意这一点。
The lesson Richard took from his father's story was to be a responsible person, to think about the consequences of his actions.
理查德从他父亲的故事中学到的教训是，要做一个负责任的人，思考自己行为的后果。
Richard worked all his life as a fireman, which oddly, he calls a safe job.
理查德一生都是一名消防员，奇怪的是，他称这是一份安全的工作。
He's retired now.
他现在已经退休了。
But as it turned out, when I interviewed Richard, he and his wife were getting ready to drive to Florida, as he said, the legit way.
但事实证明，当我采访理查德时，他和他的妻子正准备开车去佛罗里达，正如他所说，以合法的方式。
Did you ever want to do something like what your dad did?
你有没有想过像你父亲那样做一些事情？
Did you ever want to--
你有没有想过——
No, no, no. No. No. I knew I didn't want to do something as drastic as that.
不，不，不。不，不，我知道我不想做那么激烈的事情。
So that's the biggest difference between my father and me.
所以这就是我和父亲最大的区别。
My father never worried.
我父亲从来不担心。
Don't worry, the rent will be paid.
不用担心，房租会付的。
Don't worry, we've got this food on the table.
别担心，我们的餐桌上已经准备好了这些食物。
Don't worry about it.
别担心。
I worry about everything.
我担心一切。
I worry about my kids.
我担心我的孩子。
They had to go to school.
他们必须去上学。
They had to go to college.
他们必须上大学。
I worry about the snow.
我担心下雪。
[LAUGHS] My father never worried about nothing.
[笑]我父亲从不担心任何事。
My father never worried about nothing.
我父亲从不担心任何事情。
He worried-- you know, I worry.
他担心——你知道，我也担心。
I don't sleep nights.
我晚上不睡觉。
I toss and turn, I'm still worrying.
我翻来覆去，心里还是很担心。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
I wish I could've lived that-- yeah.
我希望我能这样生活——是的。
I wish I could not worry.
我希望我不用担心。
After Richard's dad, William Cimillo, got his job back in 1947, he went on to drive a bus in the Bronx for the next 16 years, with no detours.
理查德的父亲威廉·西米洛 (William Cimillo) 1947 年重新找到工作后，在接下来的 16 年里，他继续在布朗克斯区开公交车，没有走任何弯路。
Once, a reporter asked him, do you still think about hitting the open road?
有一次，有记者问他，你还想上路吗？
Turning left and heading across the bridge again?
左转再过桥？
Cimillo said, yes, he thought about it.
西米洛说，是的，他考虑过。
But when you tell somebody a joke, he said, it's never as funny the second time.
但他说，当你给别人讲一个笑话时，第二次就不会那么好笑了。
Joe Richmond.
乔·里士满。
Sarah Kate Kramer produced that story with him.
莎拉·凯特·克莱默 (Sarah Kate Kramer) 与他一起制作了这个故事。
That's part of their podcast series, Radio Diaries, which you can find and subscribe to at radiodiaries.org.
这是他们的播客系列 Radio Diaries 的一部分，您可以在 radiodiaries.org 上找到并订阅该系列。
Act Two, Where We're Going, We Don't Need Roads.
第二幕，我们要去的地方，我们不需要道路。
So now a story about people who want to take a different kind of leap, a kind of quantum leap, you could say.
所以现在的故事是关于人们想要实现不同类型的飞跃，你可以说是一种巨大的飞跃。
There was this study done by the Pew Research Center and Smithsonian Magazine back in February, published in April.
皮尤研究中心和史密森杂志早在二月份就进行了这项研究，并于四月份发表。
The study was about future technologies.
这项研究是关于未来技术的。
And basically, they called up 1,001 Americans.
基本上，他们给 1,001 名美国人打电话。
I do not understand why it's 1,001 and not just 1,000.
我不明白为什么是 1,001 而不仅仅是 1,000。
Maybe 1,001 just seemed sexier or something.
也许 1,001 只是看起来更性感什么的。
Anyway, they called up 1,001 people.
不管怎样，他们给1001人打了电话。
They asked them what new technological advances they expected to see in the future, and what technological advances they wanted to see.
他们询问他们预计未来会看到哪些新的技术进步，以及他们希望看到哪些技术进步。
So there were questions like, would you eat meat that was grown in a lab?
所以有人问，你会吃实验室培育的肉吗？
Would you get a brain implant to improve your mental capacity?
你会接受大脑植入来提高你的智力吗？
The answer is yes and yes to those, of course.
答案当然是肯定的。
And if you read through the whole thing, there's this kind of bizarre finding at the end, something small, something that caught the interest of producers Sean Cole and Jonathan Goldstein.
如果你通读整个故事，你会发现最后有一种奇怪的发现，一些很小的东西，引起了制片人肖恩·科尔和乔纳森·戈德斯坦的兴趣。
So the very last question in the survey about future technologies, question 14-- it was a short survey-- was this.
关于未来技术的调查中的最后一个问题，即问题 14——这是一个简短的调查——是这样的。
If there was one futuristic invention that you could own, what would it be?
如果您可以拥有一项未来发明，它会是什么？
There was no multiple choice.
没有多项选择。
This was an open-ended question.
这是一个开放式问题。
And off the tops of their heads, 9% of respondents, so roughly 1 out of 10 people, said they wanted some way to travel through time.
9% 的受访者（大约十分之一）不假思索地表示，他们想要某种穿越时空的方式。
One out of 10 came up with that on their own.
十分之一的人是自己想出来的。
That'd be roughly 30 million Americans.
那将是大约3000万美国人。
That's like the entire nation of Canada sitting around, wishing for a time machine.
这就好像加拿大全国人民都围坐在一起，期盼着有一台时光机。
Which, speaking as a Canadian, I can say we secretly do.
作为一个加拿大人，我可以说我们秘密地这样做。
First stop, moments before making our national mascot a beaver and not an American woodcock.
第一站，即将我们的国家吉祥物变成海狸而不是美国山鹬。
The desire for time travel, at 9%, ranked highest on the list, tied only with cures for diseases.
对时间旅行的渴望以 9% 的比例位列榜首，仅与治疗疾病并列。
People wanted time travel more than they wanted robot servants, which was 4%.
人们对时间旅行的渴望超过了对机器人仆人的渴望，后者为 4%。
More than they wanted world peace, a whopping 2%.
超过了他们对世界和平的渴望，这一比例高达 2%。
Time travel was three times more popular than hover cars, holodecks, and jet packs combined.
时间旅行比悬停汽车、全息甲板和喷气背包加起来受欢迎三倍。
But the Pew study is just a study.
但皮尤研究只是一项研究。
It's just numbers.
这只是数字。
It doesn't explain why so many people want to travel in time.
它并不能解释为什么这么多人想要进行时间旅行。
Is it our curiosity about the future?
是我们对未来的好奇吗？
I wonder what new kinds of cutlets the world of tomorrow will hold?
我想知道明天的世界将会有哪些新的炸肉排？
Regrets over the past?
对过去的事后悔吗？
Jonathan Goldstein Boy, do I wish I hadn't eaten all those cutlets.
乔纳森·戈德斯坦男孩，我真希望我没有吃掉所有这些炸肉排。
And so we struck out into the world to try to answer that question.
因此，我们走进这个世界，试图回答这个问题。
Why do you want to time travel?
你为什么想要时间旅行？
Oh, well, I've done a lot of thinking about this.
哦，好吧，我已经思考了很多这个问题。
Oh, there's a lot of things I'd like to accomplish.
哦，我想要完成的事情还有很多。
And even though they've been mulling this over for so long, many still reach for the most well-trodden sci-fi comic book staple.
尽管他们已经考虑了这么久，但许多人仍然选择了最常见的科幻漫画书主食。
My first impulse about time travel is the same one that I would guess that everybody has.
我对时间旅行的第一冲动和我猜每个人都有的一样。
You know, thinking that I'm going to go back and I'm going to kill Hitler.
你知道，我想我要回去杀死希特勒。
What's funny is that they know it's kind of lame.
有趣的是他们知道这有点蹩脚。
You can hear it in their voices.
你可以从他们的声音中听到这一点。
Or kill Hitler when he's a baby, or kill his mother or something.
或者在希特勒还是个婴儿的时候杀掉他，或者杀掉他的母亲什么的。
It's the thing everyone always says is--
大家常说的一句话就是——
And then they say it anyway.
然后他们还是这么说。
Woman 1 If there hadn't been a Hitler--
女人1 如果没有希特勒——
Put a bullet in Adolf Hitler's head when he was still a student, I guess.
我猜，当阿道夫·希特勒还是个学生时，他就被子弹射中了他的脑袋。
We spoke to about 50 people, both friends and strangers we walked up to on the street.
我们采访了大约 50 个人，其中有我们在街上遇到的朋友和陌生人。
Most of them had more thoughts about traveling to the past, rather than the future.
他们中的大多数人更多地想到的是回到过去，而不是未来。
After all, you never know with the future.
毕竟，你永远不知道未来。
Teleport yourself hundreds of years from now, and you could land on an Earth devoid of people, where the only remaining structure is a monument to President Donald Trump, made out of eternium.
将自己传送到数百年后，你可能会降落在一个没有人类的地球上，那里唯一剩下的建筑是唐纳德·特朗普总统的纪念碑，由永恒合金制成。
Whereas with the past, at least you know the basic plot points.
而对于过去，至少你知道基本的情节点。
And there's a vast encyclopedia of calamities you could still fix.
还有一本巨大的灾难百科全书你仍然可以解决。
If you could go back in time and do anything you want, what would it be?
如果你可以回到过去，做任何你想做的事，你会做什么？
I have no idea.
我不知道。
Warn people of disasters, I guess?
警告人们灾难，我猜？
Warn people of disasters?
警告人们灾难发生？
Man On Street 1 Yeah.
1号街的男人 是的。
Like, September 11, or something.
比如，9 月 11 日，或者什么的。
And how would you go about it, do you think?
你觉得你会怎么做？
And of course, no one imagines that they'll end up with an iron collar around their neck, working in a quarry.
当然，没有人想到他们最终会被套上铁项圈，在采石场工作。
Instead, they have a starring role in the historical docu-drama.
相反，他们在历史纪录片中扮演主角。
Like this guy, who'd set the controls for the Revolutionary War.
就像这个人一样，他为独立战争设定了控制权。
I don't think I'd be like, a general in the field or anything like that.
我不认为我会成为战场上的将军或类似的人。
But I'd probably be more of like an adviser to Washington.
但我可能更像是华盛顿的顾问。
Like Alexander Hamilton was, right?
就像亚历山大·汉密尔顿一样，对吧？
And a few other folks.
还有其他一些人。
So yeah.
所以是的。
I love how you're already an officer in this.
我喜欢你已经是这方面的军官了。
Exactly.
确切地。
Yeah.
是的。
Jonathan Goldstein But these ambitious, world-saving time travelers are just a small subset of the people we interviewed.
乔纳森·戈德斯坦 但这些雄心勃勃、拯救世界的时间旅行者只是我们采访的人中的一小部分。
I have a probably much more selfish kind of answer.
我的答案可能更加自私。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
Most of the people we talked to didn't want to change history.
我们采访的大多数人都不想改变历史。
They wanted to go back in time to fix something personal, something in their own lives.
他们想回到过去，修复一些个人的、自己生活中的事情。
Probably wouldn't have asked my ex-wife out that first time.
第一次可能不会约我前妻出去。
And how do you think you would be different now in that case?
如果那样的话，你认为你现在会有什么不同？
There were some people that I wish I could have punched.
有些人我希望我能打他们。
One of them is deceased.
其中一人已去世。
If I could time travel, I'd go back and fix all the awful, awful mistakes I'd done.
如果我可以进行时间旅行，我会回去纠正我犯下的所有可怕的错误。
Because there's so many stuff that you just think of, like when you're lying in bed, you're like, oh my God, that's so embarrassing.
因为你会想到很多事情，比如当你躺在床上时，你会想，天哪，这太尴尬了。
Well, wait.
好吧，等等。
Hang on a second though.
不过请稍等一下。
You're only 11.
你才11岁。
Yeah.
是的。
I've got a lot of things I want to change.
我有很多事情想要改变。
She told me, number one on the list, the night she told a room full of adults a joke that began, a Canadian, an Italian and two Chinese people were standing on a roof.
她告诉我，名单上的第一件事是，那天晚上，她给一屋子成年人讲了一个笑话，开头是一个加拿大人、一个意大利人和两个中国人站在屋顶上。
More than one person said they wanted to go back in time just to advise their younger selves, knowing what they know now.
不止一个人表示，他们想回到过去，只是为了给年轻的自己提供建议，了解他们现在所知道的事情。
Like my friend Jimmy.
就像我的朋友吉米一样。
I think I would meet myself at whatever coffee shop I used to go to.
我想我会在我曾经去过的任何一家咖啡店遇见我自己。
It was like the Derne Street Deli on the back end of Beacon Hill.
它就像灯塔山后端的德恩街熟食店。
I'd be like, look, kid, come here for a minute.
我会说，听着，孩子，过来一下。
Come here.
过来吧。
These are the five things you need to know that's going to help you in the next 25 years of your life.
以下是您需要了解的五件事，它们将在您未来 25 年的人生中为您提供帮助。
These are the five things you need to know.
这是您需要了解的五件事。
Bet on these sports games.
投注这些体育比赛。
Never ride this roller coaster.
永远不要乘坐这个过山车。
And sex moves.
还有性爱动作。
Two other things?
另外两件事？
Jimmy Oh, the sex moves was three things.
吉米哦，性爱动作分为三件事。
And listening to both of these groups, the ones who want to save the world, and the ones who'd use the time machine to excel in the boudoir--
听听这两个群体的声音，那些想要拯救世界的人，以及那些想利用时间机器在闺房里出类拔萃的人——
Or to do anything else in their private life.
或者在他们的私人生活中做任何其他事情。
--you can't help wondering, are the people who want to save the world just better people?
——你不禁会想，那些想要拯救世界的人都是更好的人吗？
We posed this question to everyone we talked to.
我们向所有与我们交谈过的人提出了这个问题。
I mean, do I think they're better people?
我的意思是，我认为他们是更好的人吗？
I think it's just-- those people are less self-involved.
我认为这只是——那些人不太自私。
That doesn't make them better or worse.
这并不会让它们变得更好或更糟。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I think that that sort of grand delusion that you could ultimately change a big event, a big life-changing event, and that you'd be doing everybody a favor by doing this, is a little-- I mean, that's pretty crazy.
我认为那种你最终可以改变一个大事件、一个改变生活的大事件，并且你这样做会给每个人带来好处的巨大幻想有点——我的意思是，这非常疯狂。
As opposed to thinking, oh yeah.
与思考相反，哦，是的。
I could make myself not ride the J train that night when that dude threw up on me.
那天晚上，当那个家伙向我呕吐时，我可以让自己不乘坐 J 火车。
When you talk to a large number of people about time travel, you tend to hear a lot about the butterfly effect.
当你与很多人谈论时间旅行时，你往往会听到很多关于蝴蝶效应的内容。
That idea that a little change can have massive repercussions as it echoes through history.
这种想法在历史中回响，一点点的改变就会产生巨大的影响。
You've heard of this.
你听说过这个。
But with these small, little personal wishes, it almost feels like you can get away with it somehow.
但有了这些小小的个人愿望，你几乎感觉你可以以某种方式逃脱惩罚。
It's just you, after all, and maybe one other person.
毕竟只有你，也许还有另一个人。
I'd probably go back in time to before my husband died.
我可能会回到我丈夫去世之前。
Maybe even the day or two before.
甚至可能是前一两天。
Yeah.
是的。
I wouldn't do anything necessarily different, but I might just enjoy that time a bit more than I actually did.
我不会做任何不同的事情，但我可能会比实际更享受那段时间。
Yeah.
是的。
Um, no, I don't think so.
嗯，不，我不这么认为。
Except the last conversation, I might not have made about a stupid Tupperware order.
除了上次谈话之外，我可能不会谈论特百惠的愚蠢订单。
[LAUGHS] I might make it about something a bit more about how I felt about him.
[笑]我可能会更多地谈论我对他的感觉。
What was the disagreement?
分歧是什么？
I have to ask.
我得问一下。
It was-- the last conversation was, he was berating me for not putting the order in.
最后一次谈话是，他责备我没有下订单。
And I said it was difficult to put the order in when the Tupperware catalog's on the dashboard of your truck.
我说过，当特百惠目录位于您卡车的仪表板上时，很难下订单。
He was driving the truck at the time.
当时他正在驾驶卡车。
And he said, no it's not, no it's not.
他说，不，不是，不是。
And I said, yes it is.
我说，是的。
And then he obviously looked on the dashboard, and seen the Tupperware catalog, and gone, oh.
然后他显然看了看仪表板，看到了特百惠目录，然后就消失了，哦。
You're right.
你说得对。
It is on the-- it's just stupid, isn't it?
这是——这太愚蠢了，不是吗？
The stupid things that we realize afterwards, and we remember.
我们事后意识到并记住了那些愚蠢的事情。
But yeah.
但是是的。
I probably would have made that last conversation-- and we laughed, but I probably would have made that conversation about something else.
我可能会进行最后一次谈话——我们笑了，但我可能会谈论其他事情。
So yeah.
所以是的。
At least we laughed about it.
至少我们对此一笑置之。
This phone call happened when he was on his way to play cricket.
这个电话是在他去打板球的路上打来的。
This was in Australia.
这是在澳大利亚。
At the end of the game, he had a cardiac arrest.
比赛结束后，他心脏骤停。
Other folks we talked to said they wanted to go back in time and study harder in school or pick a different career path entirely.
我们采访过的其他人表示，他们想回到过去，在学校更加努力地学习，或者选择完全不同的职业道路。
One said he wished he had picked a better roommate.
有人说他希望自己选了一个更好的室友。
Some people just wanted to go back and relive parts of their lives that they enjoyed.
有些人只是想回去重温他们喜欢的生活。
A few people said they didn't want to time travel.
有几个人说他们不想进行时间旅行。
They already have too much they want to do in the present.
他们现在想做的事情已经太多了。
And maybe everything would just end up worse if they changed anything, anyway.
无论如何，如果他们改变任何事情，也许一切都会变得更糟。
And about that, these people who just didn't want to go back, it turns out there was another finding in the Pew study.
关于这一点，这些只是不想回去的人，事实证明皮尤研究中还有另一个发现。
Older people, people over 50, are less inclined to want to time travel.
50 岁以上的老年人不太愿意进行时间旅行。
And people over 65 are way less inclined to want to time travel.
65 岁以上的人不太愿意进行时间旅行。
But why?
但为什么？
Does one achieve a greater sense of peace in old age?
人在年老时是否会获得更大的平静感？
Self-acceptance?
自我接纳？
Or maybe it comes down to an older person's concerns about the time machine itself.
或者这可能归结为老年人对时间机器本身的担忧。
Will it have legroom?
会有腿部空间吗？
Clean bathrooms?
浴室干净吗？
Jonathan Goldstein Will meals be served?
乔纳森·戈尔茨坦 提供餐点吗？
And if so, is there a low-sodium option?
如果是这样，有低钠的选择吗？
Clearly, we needed to talk to some seniors.
显然，我们需要与一些前辈交谈。
And so, like Al Pacino in a geriatric version of cruising, we set out at night, to a park, looking for old people.
因此，就像阿尔·帕西诺在老年版巡航中一样，我们在晚上出发，前往公园，寻找老年人。
Oh, which guys?
哦，是哪些人？
Jonathan Goldstein These guys, right here.
乔纳森·戈德斯坦 这些家伙，就在这里。
We found this Mutt and Jeff type pair of elderly guys sitting on a bench.
我们发现这对穆特和杰夫式的老人坐在长凳上。
We make them answer for their elderly brethren and sisteren.
我们让他们为年老的弟兄姐妹负责。
Is it true what the survey says?
调查结果是否属实？
Are they not interested in time travel?
他们对时间旅行不感兴趣吗？
No. I've divested myself from all fantasy.
不，我已经放弃了所有的幻想。
The only thing I believe up there is the UFOs.
我唯一相信的就是UFO。
Seems consistent with the research.
看起来与研究一致。
Sort of.
有点像。
Why would I believe in a fantasy like that?
我为什么会相信这样的幻想？
Why are you even interviewing me and putting that supposition to me?
你为什么还要采访我并向我提出这样的假设？
It's a waste of your time.
这是浪费你的时间。
It's a waste of valuable time--
这是浪费宝贵的时间——
Because it's-- Elderly Man 1 --on the radio.
因为收音机里正在播放《老人 1》。
This is all fantasy.
这都是幻想。
Why are you even bringing that question?
你为什么还要提出这个问题？
The world is coming to and end.
世界即将来临并终结。
Why are you wasting my time?
你为什么要浪费我的时间？
I mean, but don't you like to indulge in--
我的意思是，但你难道不喜欢沉迷于——
But after a mere 8 and 1/2 minutes of cross examination, it turned out these two were just as ready to climb into a time machine as a person half their age.
但经过仅仅 8 又 1/2 分钟的盘问，结果证明这两个人就像年龄只有他们一半的人一样准备好爬上时间机器。
You don't just want to go back in time to like--
你不只是想回到过去去喜欢——
What reason would-- the only way would--
什么理由会——唯一的办法会——
I would like it.
我想要它。
Elderly Man 1 The only reason I would want to go back in time is to be young, so I could have orgasm.
老人1 我想回到过去的唯一原因是年轻，这样我就可以达到高潮。
Have you ever heard of the PTO movement?
您听说过 PTO 运动吗？
No. Elderly Man 1 The Peace Through Orgasm movement.
No. 老人 1 高潮带来的和平运动。
I have not heard of that.
我没听说过。
Elderly Man 1 Well, now you've heard of it.
老人 1 嗯，现在你已经听说了。
So wait, you were saying that you would like to go back?
等等，你是说你想回去吗？
Oh, sure I would.
哦，我当然愿意。
I would like to go into the future.
我想进入未来。
Now let's talk about the UFOs.
现在我们来谈谈UFO。
This is documented in the library.
这在图书馆中有记录。
In 1947--
1947年——
But going back to time travel though, do you ever dream about going back in time?
但是回到时间旅行，你是否梦想过回到过去？
Do you wish you could?
你希望可以吗？
I don't dream it, but I would like to.
我不做梦，但我愿意。
Maybe see the dinosaurs.
也许能看到恐龙。
It'd be nice.
那就太好了。
Well, just to see how they are.
好吧，只是想看看他们怎么样。
I'd have to be equipped with some sort of a laser something.
我必须配备某种激光之类的东西。
You never know.
你永远不知道。
It was beginning to seem as though when you scratched the surface, even those opposed to time travel might soften their position and find some reason to go back.
似乎当你触及表面时，即使是那些反对时间旅行的人也可能会软化他们的立场并找到一些理由回去。
Perhaps this is the limitation of a cold, by-the-numbers survey.
也许这就是冷酷的、按数字进行的调查的局限性。
Scratching surfaces is exactly what Pew cannot do.
刮擦表面正是皮尤无法做到的。
Thank you very much.
非常感谢。
It's good to meet you.
很高兴认识你。
And that's another form of insanity.
这是另一种形式的疯狂。
You're a rube.
你是个乡巴佬。
So we went looking for senior citizens who truly have zero interest in time travel, like the Pew study found, so we could ask them why.
因此，我们去寻找真正对时间旅行零兴趣的老年人，就像皮尤研究中心发现的那样，这样我们就可以问他们为什么。
Which is how we ended up at a senior center in Brooklyn.
这就是我们最终来到布鲁克林的一个老年中心的原因。
There was maybe a couple dozen people sitting around in the cafeteria after breakfast, watching Let's Make a Deal on a big-screen TV.
早餐后，大约有几十个人坐在自助餐厅里，观看大屏幕电视上的《让我们做个交易》。
The director of the Center turned the sound down and told Sean to introduce himself.
中心主任把声音关小，让纪擎轩做自我介绍。
Hi, sorry to bother you guys.
你好，很抱歉打扰你们。
My name's Sean Cole, and I'm a radio producer--
我叫肖恩·科尔，我是一名广播制作人——
Not so much the radio professional when you're being stared at by a room full of silent seniors who hate you for getting their game show muted.
当你被一屋子沉默的老年人盯着看时，广播专业人士就不再那么重要了，他们讨厌你把他们的游戏节目静音。
Meanwhile, Johnny just stood there, helping not at all.
与此同时，约翰尼只是站在那里，根本没有帮忙。
And because you weren't making any sense at all, the director, Rosemary Bland, had to step in.
因为你根本没有任何意义，导演罗斯玛丽·布兰德不得不介入。
OK.
好的。
So he's just going to be talking to you all about time travel, whether you enjoy time travel, or whether you do time travel, or whether you don't do time travel.
所以他只是要和你们谈论时间旅行，无论你是否喜欢时间旅行，或者你是否进行时间旅行，或者你是否不进行时间旅行。
OK?
好的？
Of course, those were not our questions, nor anything like them.
当然，这些不是我们的问题，也不是类似的问题。
Nevertheless, we made our way from table to table.
尽管如此，我们还是从一张桌子走到了另一张桌子。
Well, I'm not interested in time travel.
好吧，我对时间旅行不感兴趣。
No, I'm not interested in that.
不，我对此不感兴趣。
I think going backwards is not helping us.
我认为倒退对我们没有帮助。
If it's going to cost them money, that's another no-no. [LAUGHS] You've gotta remember, you've got retirees.
如果这会让他们花钱，那就是另一个禁忌。 [笑]你必须记住，你有退休人员。
You know?
你知道？
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
People that have Alzheimer's, they go back in time.
患有阿尔茨海默氏症的人，他们会回到过去。
People that have Alzheimer's?
患有阿尔茨海默氏症的人？
Elderly Woman 6 Yeah.
老妇人6 是啊。
They go back in time.
他们回到过去。
We don't have that yet.
我们还没有那个。
Going up there to the moon, you know, exploring.
去月球，你知道，探索。
They're probably already up there with time travel.
他们可能已经进行了时间旅行。
Fun fact-- when talking with seniors about time travel, they sometimes throw the question into a big, science-fiction food processor with space travel.
有趣的是——当与老年人谈论时间旅行时，他们有时会把问题扔到一个带有太空旅行的大型科幻食品加工机中。
But the Pew finding did bear out.
但皮尤研究中心的调查结果确实得到了证实。
Most people at the senior center were pretty dismissive of the idea, some more emphatically than others.
老年人中心的大多数人对这个想法都非常不屑一顾，有些人的态度比其他人更强烈。
Hell, no. [LAUGHS] Jonathan Goldstein Why not?
天啊，不。 [笑]乔纳森·戈德斯坦为什么不呢？
Why?
为什么？
Sean Cole This is Wallace Nottage, a stately 86-year-old-- it was his birthday actually-- with a cane, and he was wearing a colorful fez on his head.
肖恩·科尔 这是华莱士·诺塔奇，一位庄严的 86 岁老人——实际上这是他的生日——拄着拐杖，头上戴着彩色毡帽。
We were called over to talk to him by two women who said, he'd probably have a lot to say to you.
两个女人叫我们去和他谈话，她们说，他可能有很多话要对你说。
And he did.
他做到了。
We sat with him for about 20 minutes, until finally, he gave us what felt like the most plausible reason why old people wouldn't want to go back in time.
我们和他一起坐了大约 20 分钟，直到最后，他给了我们一个感觉像是老年人不想回到过去的最合理的理由。
It's not so much that you're at peace with the way things are.
并不是说你对现状感到平静。
It's that you've come to the realization that ain't much going to change.
而是你已经意识到不会有太大改变。
Maybe the thing that much older people understand isn't that time travel is frivolous.
也许很多年长的人都明白，时间旅行并不无聊。
It's that it's pointless.
就是这样毫无意义。
When you have half a century of past behind you or more, and you look at those decades in one swath, you realize that even if you fix one thing, something else will go wrong.
当你已经过去了半个世纪或更长时间，当你回顾这几十年时，你会意识到，即使你解决了一件事，其他事情也会出错。
Even some of the younger people we talked with felt that way about changing the past.
甚至我们采访过的一些年轻人也对改变过去抱有同样的想法。
I mean, I'd love to do it.
我的意思是，我很乐意这样做。
And I'm sure everyone would love to go back in time and change some things.
我相信每个人都希望回到过去并改变一些事情。
But it'd ruin things a bit too.
但它也会毁掉一些事情。
How do you mean?
你是什么意思？
Girl Well, experiences that people might not call experiences, people might call mistakes.
女孩 嗯，人们可能不会称之为经历的经历，人们可能会称之为错误。
Even though at that time, they make you sad, if you go back and change everything like that, then you don't learn.
即使当时，它们让你伤心，但如果你回去改变一切，那么你就学不会。
So you're sad more often.
所以你更常感到悲伤。
Yeah.
是的。
So you're saying there's no getting around it.
所以你是说没有办法绕过它。
No. There really isn't.
不，确实没有。
Sean Cole Inevitably, in between things, when Johnny and I were interviewing folks together, we got to talking about whether either of us would want to go back in time for any reason.
肖恩·科尔 不可避免地，在约翰尼和我一起采访人们的间隙，我们不可避免地讨论了我们中的任何一个人是否愿意出于某种原因回到过去。
In Johnny's case, the answer would be--
就约翰尼而言，答案是——
Not for me.
不适合我。
Sean Cole Whereas I'm one of those people who's thought about this a lot.
肖恩·科尔 (Sean Cole) 而我是经常思考这个问题的人之一。
Like, a lot a lot.
就像，很多很多。
There was this point when I obsessively wanted to go back in time to a very particular moment in time, to fix the past.
有那么一刻，我痴迷地想要回到过去的一个非常特定的时刻，修复过去。
The facts are pretty standard.
事实是相当标准的。
I was with a woman, and we needed to decide about our future.
我和一个女人在一起，我们需要决定我们的未来。
So I flew to Alaska for the weekend to visit her.
所以我周末飞往阿拉斯加看望她。
And after talking for two days, I finally said that I wasn't ready to be with her.
聊了两天后，我终于说我还没有准备好和她在一起。
And for a long time after that, I wished I had made the opposite decision, that I had told her yes instead of no. I would sit and pray that I could have that weekend to do over again.
在那之后的很长一段时间里，我希望我做出了相反的决定，我告诉她“是”而不是“不”。我会坐下来祈祷我能重新度过那个周末。
I'd picture it all the time.
我一直会想象它。
And then, just little by little, there wasn't any big epiphany or anything, I came to see that things were never really right between us and that they never would have been.
然后，一点一点地，没有任何大的顿悟或任何事情，我开始发现我们之间的事情从来都不是真正正确的，而且也永远不会正确。
It took about two years, maybe longer, to understand that.
我花了大约两年，甚至更长的时间才明白这一点。
And now she's married and I'm not, but I'm really happy we're not together.
现在她结婚了，而我没有，但我真的很高兴我们没有在一起。
And it makes me realize that I have been time traveling.
这让我意识到我一直在时间旅行。
It's just that I've been traveling into the future at 60 minutes per hour.
只是我一直以每小时 60 分钟的速度旅行到未来。
And maybe that's how we fix the past.
也许这就是我们修复过去的方式。
Sean Cole this one of the producers of our radio show.
肖恩·科尔（Sean Cole）是我们广播节目的制作人之一。
Jonathan Goldstein is the host of Public Radio Program and podcast Wiretap, which is distributed in the United States by PRI, Public Radio International, and also available on iTunes.
乔纳森·戈尔茨坦 (Jonathan Goldstein) 是公共广播节目和播客 Wiretap 的主持人，该节目由 PRI、国际公共广播电台在美国发行，也可在 iTunes 上收听。
Coming up, the glass of wine that could change everything.
即将到来，一杯可以改变一切的酒。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme, bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，我们每周的节目都会选择一个主题，为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's show, The Leap-- stories of people taking a huge jump into the unknown.
今天的节目《飞跃》讲述了人们大跃进未知世界的故事。
We've arrived at Act Three of our program.
我们已经到了节目的第三幕了。
Act Three, The Wisdom to Know the Difference.
第三幕，了解差异的智慧。
So Nancy Updike has this story about somebody considering a very big leap she might try in her own life.
南希·厄普代克（Nancy Updike）有一个故事，讲述的是一个人考虑在自己的生活中尝试一次巨大的飞跃。
Tina Dupuy has a story she's told dozens of times, in front of thousands of people.
蒂娜·杜普伊 (Tina Dupuy) 有一个故事，她在数千人面前讲过几十次。
It's about herself at 13 years old, when she was being told by people around her, you have a problem.
这是关于她自己13岁时，周围的人告诉她，你有问题。
The problem landed her in AA and started early.
这个问题使她进入了 AA 并很早就开始了。
She remembers drinking sake when she was five years old at a family reunion.
她记得五岁时在一次家庭聚会上喝了清酒。
At age 12, pouring herself a big glass of tequila at 3:00 in the morning to drink by herself and watch TV.
12岁时，凌晨3:00给自己倒了一大杯龙舌兰酒，一个人喝酒看电视。
The kinds of things that can seem cool or no big deal when you're in it, until suddenly they're ruining your life.
当你身处其中时，这些事情可能看起来很酷或者没什么大不了的，直到突然它们毁了你的生活。
At a very young age, Tina became what she calls "AA famous" for telling her story at meetings and AA conferences like this one.
蒂娜在很小的时候就因为在像这样的会议和 AA 大会上讲述自己的故事而成为她所谓的“AA 名人”。
I got sober when I was 13.
我13岁时就清醒了。
And for a really long time, I thought that was my part.
在很长一段时间里，我认为那是我的职责。
That was my identity and that was my thing that was going to make me different from absolutely everybody.
这就是我的身份，这就是我的东西，这将使我与所有人不同。
Even in young people's meetings, I was like, oh yeah, you're 16, whatever.
即使在年轻人的会议上，我也会说，哦，是的，你才 16 岁，无论如何。
I got sober when I was 13, you know.
我13岁时就开始戒酒了，你知道的。
And last year at ACYPAA--
去年在 ACYPAA 上——
ACYPAA stands for All California Young People in Alcoholics Anonymous.
ACYPAA 代表所有加州戒酒互诫协会的年轻人。
I was in the room I was staying in.
我在我住的房间里。
There was this kid there, and he looked really young.
那里有一个孩子，他看起来很年轻。
And I was like, wow, how old are you?
我当时想，哇，你多大了？
And he said he was 13.
他还说他13岁了。
And I was like, wow, how long do you have sober?
我当时想，哇，你清醒多久了？
And he says he has 90 days.
他说他有 90 天的时间。
And I was like, wow.
我当时想，哇。
You know, I got sober when I was 13.
你知道，我13岁时就开始清醒了。
I'm cool.
我很酷。
And he says, pfft.
他说，噗。
I got sober when I was 12.
我12岁时就清醒了。
So Tina got AA famous as Tina D, the girl who got sober when she was 13, and could tell the hell out of her story.
因此，蒂娜（Tina）以蒂娜·D（Tina D）的名字闻名，这个女孩在13岁时就清醒了，并且可以讲述自己的故事。
And if you're wondering, yes, teenagers can be alcoholics.
如果你想知道，是的，青少年可能是酗酒者。
Almost 700,000 teenage alcoholics in the US, according to most recent government statistics.
根据最新的政府统计数据，美国有近 70 万青少年酗酒者。
AA saved Tina's life by the grace of God, or whatever higher power you choose.
AA 靠着上帝的恩典，或者你选择的任何更高的力量，拯救了蒂娜的生命。
She quoted The Big Book-- that's the official AA book, so much, that people in AA called her a Big Book thumper.
她引用了《大书》——那是 AA 的官方书籍，以至于 AA 的人称她为“大书重击者”。
It's like a Bible thumper, except with The Big Book.
它就像一本圣经重击器，除了《大书》。
And any teenager who shows up at AA today could be handed a Young People in AA pamphlet that starts with Tina's story.
今天出现在 AA 的任何青少年都可以收到一本以蒂娜的故事开头的 AA 中的年轻人小册子。
That's part one of this-- Tina from age 13 up to 33.
这是其中的一部分——蒂娜从 13 岁到 33 岁。
Two decades sober.
清醒二十年。
At 33, she'd been married for several years, she'd become a columnist and a political commentator, a long way from the miserable, angry girl she'd been who dropped out of school and spent her time drinking and smoking pot with the older kids, running away from home.
33岁的她已经结婚好几年了，成为了一名专栏作家和政治评论员，这与她当年辍学、和大孩子一起喝酒、吸大麻、离家出走的悲惨、愤怒的女孩相去甚远。
AA and sobriety felt so thoroughly part of her by her 30s that she only went to meetings once a month or so to listen and to tell people who were struggling the things other people had told her.
到了 30 多岁时，AA 和清醒已经彻底成为她的一部分，以至于她大约每月只参加一次会议，倾听并告诉那些正在苦苦挣扎的人别人告诉她的事情。
Keep coming back.
继续回来。
Trust your higher power.
相信你更高的力量。
Everything happens for a reason.
一切发生的原因。
After so much turbulence, her life was finally calm.
经历了这么多的波折，她的生活终于平静了。
And then an unwelcome and not at all expected thought.
然后是一个不受欢迎的、完全出乎意料的想法。
One day it occurred to me that everything doesn't happen for a reason.
有一天，我突然意识到，并不是所有事情的发生都是有原因的。
What it is is that everything happens, and then we assign a reason to it.
事情的本质就是一切发生，然后我们给它分配一个原因。
For someone else, maybe it wouldn't be big deal.
对于其他人来说，也许这没什么大不了的。
For Tina, this was the start of a great slow unraveling.
对于蒂娜来说，这是一个缓慢瓦解的开始。
Next to go was belief in a higher power.
接下来是对更高力量的信仰。
And then she became fixated on a dangerous question.
然后她开始关注一个危险的问题。
I would wonder what if.
我想知道如果。
What if I drank?
如果我喝了怎么办？
Really, what would happen?
真的，会发生什么？
But I mean, in the Alcoholics Anonymous book, it says if you don't think you're an alcoholic, go drink.
但我的意思是，在戒酒互诫协会的书中，它说如果你不认为自己是酒鬼，那就去喝酒。
And if you can drink normally, awesome.
如果你能正常喝酒，那就太好了。
I'm paraphrasing.
我正在转述。
But it says that.
但它是这么说的。
It says, this is how you can find out if you're an alcoholic.
上面说，这就是你可以确定自己是否酗酒的方法。
Go drink.
去喝酒吧。
Let's take a minute and consider the scale of what Tina was proposing.
让我们花一点时间考虑一下蒂娜提议的规模。
Tina had been a full-blown drunk at 13 years old.
蒂娜 13 岁时就已经是个十足的酒鬼了。
She found AA.
她找到了AA。
And in every AA meeting, the first thing you say out loud to get started is, I'm an alcoholic.
在每次 AA 会议上，你开始时大声说的第一句话就是：我是个酒鬼。
Tina had been saying that her entire adult life and all of her adolescence.
蒂娜一直在说她的整个成年生活和整个青春期。
Asking herself, should I take a drink, was basically asking, should I turn my back on what I believed about myself for 20 years?
问自己，我应该喝一杯吗？基本上就是在问，我是否应该背弃 20 年来对自己的信念？
There's only one reason to entertain a question that immense, which is, you can't help it.
考虑如此重大的问题只有一个原因，那就是，你无法控制它。
Tina had doubted and questioned her way into a process that she could not stop.
蒂娜的怀疑和质疑进入了一个她无法阻止的过程。
It was like she'd started restoring a painting and then realized, I think there's another painting underneath.
就像她开始修复一幅画，然后意识到，我认为下面还有另一幅画。
I want to say one thing.
我想说一件事。
Which is that, when I interviewed Tina, I saw that a lot of what she's talking about, her rethinking of her story, she's still in the middle of figuring it out right now, today.
也就是说，当我采访蒂娜时，我看到她谈论的很多内容，她对自己故事的重新思考，她现在仍然在弄清楚这一点。
Tina has a few key anecdotes she's told over the years at AA conferences.
蒂娜有一些她多年来在 AA 会议上讲述的重要轶事。
I've heard a bunch of recordings of her speaking.
我听过很多她演讲的录音。
One story is about a moment when she was 12, with her mom laying down the law.
其中一个故事讲述了她 12 岁时的某个时刻，她的妈妈制定了法律。
Here's the recording.
这是录音。
You know, she said, I need you in before 6:00 AM.
你知道，她说，我需要你在早上 6:00 之前到达。
So when I go to work, I can know that you're OK.
所以当我去上班时，我可以知道你一切都好。
And I was like, look lady, I don't need to deal with your rules.
我当时想，女士，我不需要遵守你的规则。
I'm out of here.
我要离开这里了
Notice in this anecdote, Tina is the problem.
请注意，在这个轶事中，蒂娜就是问题所在。
That's how it is in all the recordings.
所有的录音都是这样。
She's rude to her mom.
她对她妈妈很粗鲁。
She's self-destructive.
她是自我毁灭的。
It's a classic AA story about admitting bad behavior, taking responsibility for it.
这是一个关于承认不良行为并承担责任的经典 AA 故事。
Anything else is just excuses.
其他的一切都只是借口。
But the questions Tina was having had stirred up the anything else.
但蒂娜提出的问题激起了其他事情。
It made her go back and look at things she hadn't looked at since she was a kid, especially her relationship with her mom.
这让她回想起从小到大都没看过的事情，尤其是她和妈妈的关系。
This is so awkward for me to talk about, because I've spent the last 25 years convincing myself that it had nothing to do with that my mommy didn't hug me enough.
谈论这件事对我来说太尴尬了，因为过去 25 年里我一直在说服自己，这与我妈妈没有给我足够的拥抱无关。
I don't want anyone to think that I'm blaming my mommy.
我不想让任何人认为我在责怪我的妈妈。
And I also don't want to feel like I'm ripping on her.
我也不想感觉自己在欺负她。
Does that make sense?
这有道理吗？
Yeah, it does.
是的，确实如此。
A central tenet of AA is taking responsibility, not going on and on about how other people are always the problem.
AA 的核心原则是承担责任，而不是喋喋不休地说别人总是问题所在。
So let me lay out some things.
那么让我列出一些事情。
Tina's parents had been part of a new religious movement, which is the current term for what most of us would still call a cult.
蒂娜的父母曾是一个新宗教运动的成员，这是我们大多数人仍然称之为邪教的当前术语。
They moved around a lot when Tina was little-- four different countries before she was three years old.
蒂娜小时候，他们经常搬家——在她三岁之前，他们就搬过四个不同的国家。
Then her parents left the cult, and her dad was almost entirely out of the picture after that.
然后她的父母离开了邪教，此后她的父亲几乎完全消失了。
Home was a constant battle of wills between Tina and her mother, and she was a defiant kid.
家是蒂娜和她母亲之间不断的意志斗争，而她是一个叛逆的孩子。
She talked back.
她回嘴了。
She swore.
她发誓。
She cut school.
她逃学了。
She'd harass her younger brother.
她会骚扰她的弟弟。
The way her mom responded to the bad behavior, as Tina remembers it, was to tell her she was evil.
蒂娜记得，她妈妈对这种不良行为的反应是告诉她，她是邪恶的。
She was rotten.
她已经烂了。
And when Tina was 11-- 11-- her mother had her committed to hospital under psychiatric care, sort of a kiddie mental ward.
当蒂娜 11 岁——11 岁——她的母亲把她送进医院接受精神病治疗，有点像儿童精神病房。
Locked up.
锁起来了。
A tough-love intervention to curb her rebelliousness.
为了遏制她的叛逆而进行严厉的爱干预。
I kind of knew that she was trying to scare the crap out of me, because then I would do what she said.
我知道她是想吓唬我，因为那样我就会按她说的做。
And I knew.
我知道。
I remember being in that elevator and just thinking, she wants me to cry.
我记得当时我在电梯里，心里想，她想让我哭。
She wants me to beg.
她要我乞讨。
She wants me to bargain.
她要我讨价还价。
She wants me to apologize.
她要我道歉。
And she wants me to say, I will do whatever you say.
她要我说，我会照你说的做。
I'm so sorry, just don't leave me here.
我很抱歉，请不要把我留在这里。
And I remember thinking, if I show her that, if I do that, then she wins.
我记得我当时想，如果我向她展示这一点，如果我这样做，那么她就赢了。
And so it was basically like I was calling her bluff.
所以这基本上就像我在说她是虚张声势。
Not to cry.
不要哭。
Not to cry, but also to go like, OK, see you later.
不哭，但也要走，好吧，待会儿见。
Whatever.
任何。
Not to cry.
不要哭。
Not to beg.
不是乞求。
Yeah.
是的。
This is like, you don't scare me.
这就像，你别吓唬我。
Nothing you can do can hurt me.
你所做的一切都不能伤害我。
And when I got to AA, and people said that they felt dead inside, I felt dead inside.
当我到达 AA 时，人们说他们感觉内心已经死了，我也感觉内心已经死了。
And I just didn't want her to win.
我只是不想让她赢。
When you're 11, your parents are the casino.
当你11岁时，你的父母就是赌场。
The house pretty much always wins.
房子几乎总是赢。
Your only move as a child is to screw up your own life and hope that it messes with theirs too.
作为一个孩子，你唯一的举动就是搞砸自己的生活，并希望这也能扰乱他们的生活。
Tina was in the hospital for 30 days.
蒂娜在医院住了 30 天。
It did not make her less defiant.
这并没有让她变得不那么挑衅。
Two years later, her parents decided on a long-term solution to the problem of Tina, which was to make her a ward of the state.
两年后，她的父母决定对蒂娜的问题采取长期解决方案，那就是让她成为国家的监护人。
When she was 13, they put her into the foster care system.
当她13岁时，他们将她送入寄养系统。
She was sent to a girl's group home, and that's where she stayed until she graduated from high school.
她被送到一个女子团体之家，在那里她一直待到高中毕业。
The head of the group home corroborated Tina's memory that her parents rarely visited her there.
集体之家的负责人证实了蒂娜的记忆，她的父母很少去那里探望她。
I talked to Tina's mom.
我和蒂娜的妈妈谈过。
She didn't remember calling Tina evil, but she did remember the fighting.
她不记得称蒂娜为邪恶，但她确实记得那场战斗。
And she remembered committing Tina for 30 days to the hospital.
她还记得蒂娜被送进医院 30 天。
She said she was trying to raise two kids on her own and went to a family therapist who gave her the book Tough Love and recommended hospitalizing Tina.
她说她想独自抚养两个孩子，于是去找了一位家庭治疗师，治疗师给了她《艰难的爱》一书，并建议蒂娜住院。
Foster care, the group home, is where Tina regularly started going to AA.
寄养家庭，即团体之家，是蒂娜定期开始参加 AA 的地方。
So one pattern in Tina's AA stories is she's the bad guy.
所以蒂娜的 AA 故事中的一个模式就是她是坏人。
The only bad guy, even though she was a kid.
唯一的坏人，尽管她还是个孩子。
But I noticed another pattern when I was listening through her old recordings of her speeches, which is she never gets drunk in the stories.
但当我听她的旧演讲录音时，我注意到了另一个模式，那就是她从来不会在故事中喝醉。
Here's one of the recordings.
这是其中一段录音。
Tina's talking about when she went to San Francisco to try and live with her father, briefly.
蒂娜正在谈论她去旧金山尝试与父亲住在一起的经历，简短地说。
I get on the plane and I sit next-- it's a crowded flight, and I sit next to this poor guy.
我上了飞机，坐在旁边——这是一次拥挤的航班，我坐在这个可怜的家伙旁边。
And I start telling him everything about myself.
我开始告诉他关于我自己的一切。
My entire life story, which wasn't that long, about 15 minutes.
我的整个人生故事并不长，大约15分钟。
I was 13.
那年我13岁。
And so I keep on telling him my entire life story, about how I'm going to get back in school, and I'm not going to-- whatever.
所以我继续告诉他我的整个人生故事，关于我将如何回到学校，但我不会——无论如何。
And then the flight attendant comes by about 15 minutes into the flight with the beverage cart.
飞机起飞约 15 分钟后，空乘人员会推着饮料车过来。
And so I nudged this guy, and I'm like hey, can you buy me some Jack?
所以我碰了碰这个人，我说，嘿，你能给我买一些杰克吗？
And he looks me straight in the eye, and he says, if you're going to change your life, why don't you start now?
他直视着我的眼睛，说，如果你想改变你的生活，为什么不现在就开始呢？
I was like, the audacity, for this guy to tell me what to do with my life.
我当时想，这个家伙竟然敢告诉我人生该做什么。
The way she told it in AA, this was yet another example of what an extreme case she was.
从她在 AA 中讲述的方式来看，这是她的极端情况的又一个例子。
A 13-year-old who was such a booze hound that she's bugging the guy next to her on a plane to buy her a drink.
一名 13 岁的女孩非常酗酒，以至于在飞机上骚扰邻座的男孩请她喝一杯。
But notice, she asks for a glass of Jack Daniels, but she doesn't get it.
但请注意，她要一杯杰克丹尼啤酒，但她没有得到。
She doesn't drink any Jack Daniels.
她不喝任何杰克丹尼啤酒。
This is actually one of the reasons Tina was a popular AA speaker.
这实际上是蒂娜成为受欢迎的 AA 演讲者的原因之一。
People would come up to her afterwards sometimes, and say, thank you for not just getting up and telling a bunch of boring drinking stories.
有时人们会在事后对她说，谢谢你不只是站起来讲一堆无聊的喝酒故事。
Here's another recording.
这是另一段录音。
Remember the glass of tequila?
还记得那杯龙舌兰酒吗？
I poured myself a big tumbler of tequila.
我给自己倒了一大杯龙舌兰酒。
I was drinking by myself, 3 o'clock in the morning.
凌晨三点，我一个人喝酒。
I was watching Sarah T -- Portrait of a Teenage Alcoholic , Linda Blair and Mark Hamill.
我正在看《莎拉·T——一个青少年酗酒者的肖像》、琳达·布莱尔和马克·哈米尔。
The glass of tequila makes a big entrance, and then nothing happens with it.
一杯龙舌兰酒猛地入口，然后什么也没发生。
The rest of the story is about the TV show she was watching.
故事的其余部分是关于她正在看的电视节目。
When I asked Tina about the tequila, she told me, right, when she really thought back on it, she could only remember taking a few sips, and that was it.
当我问蒂娜关于龙舌兰酒的事时，她告诉我，对，当她真正回想起来时，她只记得喝了几口，仅此而已。
It was only when Tina started having the blasphemous thought in her head, should I take a drink, that she also began to seriously question how much she had drunk as a kid, really.
直到蒂娜开始在她的脑海中产生亵渎的想法“我应该喝酒吗？”时，她也开始认真地质疑自己小时候到底喝了多少酒。
What was true?
什么是真的？
For instance, that AA pamphlet with Tina's story in it.
例如，那本AA小册子，里面有蒂娜的故事。
When Tina read it out loud during our interview, it was the first time she'd looked at the words she'd written in about 10 years.
当蒂娜在我们的采访中大声读出这句话时，这是她十年来第一次看自己写下的文字。
Have you read this?
你读过这篇文章吗？
Nancy Updike I haven't read it.
南希·厄普代克 我还没读过。
[EXHALES] OK.
[呼气]好的。
"I love how alcohol affected me.
“我喜欢酒精对我的影响。
It numbed all the torment in my brain.
它麻痹了我大脑中所有的折磨。
I had new friends, the older kids.
我有了新朋友，还有年龄较大的孩子。
I was cool, finally.
我终于冷静了。
Very quickly though, I started getting into trouble.
但很快，我就开始遇到麻烦了。
When I was 11, I was put into what I assumed was a mental hospital.
当我11岁时，我被送进了我以为是精神病院的地方。
I was relieved to find out that I was crazy.
我松了口气，发现自己疯了。
Crazy is cool.
疯狂很酷。
I realized much later that the place was a rehab." Ugh.
很久以后我才意识到这个地方是一个康复中心。”啊。
When I read it, I see where I was mistaken.
当我读到它时，我发现我错在哪里了。
What was mistaken was, first of all, the place was not a rehab for alcohol or drug abuse.
错误的是，首先，这个地方不是酗酒或吸毒的戒毒所。
It was psychiatric hospitalization to fix Tina's attitude.
为了纠正蒂娜的态度，她住院了精神病院。
And second, she didn't remember loving how alcohol affected her.
其次，她不记得酒精对她的影响。
She didn't remember it numbing the torment in her brain.
她不记得这让她大脑中的痛苦麻木了。
Maybe she was in denial or had forgotten, since it was so long ago, how alcohol made her feel.
也许她否认或忘记了，因为那是很久以前的事情了，酒精给她带来了怎样的感觉。
Which is why she now wanted to take a drink.
这就是为什么她现在想喝一杯。
She felt like she had to take a drink.
她觉得自己必须喝一杯。
This would be a referendum on her story.
这将是对她的故事的一次公投。
Was she an alcoholic or not?
她到底是不是酒鬼？
And if she wasn't an alcoholic, then what was true from the stories she'd been telling on stage all these years.
如果她不是酒鬼，那么这些年来她在舞台上讲述的故事就是真实的。
She had to know.
她必须知道。
So she and her husband talked through when and how she would take her first drink.
因此，她和丈夫讨论了她何时以及如何喝第一杯酒。
Like, what happens if I get drunk, and everything falls apart, and it's horrible and whatever, and I am an alcoholic.
就像，如果我喝醉了会发生什么，一切都会崩溃，这很可怕，无论如何，我是一个酒鬼。
And he's like, OK.
他说，好吧。
We'll figure it out then.
到时候我们会想办法的。
OK.
好的。
Then we'll deal with it.
然后我们会处理它。
And I was like, well, what if I'm not?
我当时想，好吧，如果我不是呢？
He's like, OK, then that's great.
他说，好吧，那就太好了。
[LAUGHS] And that was basically-- we had that exact same conversation, I'm embarrassed to report, for about nine months, probably every night.
[笑]基本上，我们进行了完全相同的对话，我很尴尬地报告，大约九个月了，可能每天晚上。
Good for him.
对他有好处。
Tina Dupuy I know, right?
蒂娜·杜普伊 我知道，对吧？
This is why-- [LAUGHS]
这就是为什么——[笑]
Sounds like a stand up guy.
听起来像是一个站起来的人。
Tina Dupuy Yeah, right?
蒂娜·杜普伊 是的，对吧？
He's like, it's OK.
他说，没关系。
And he's like, you don't have to do it.
他说，你不必这样做。
You don't have to drink.
你不必喝酒。
Or if you want to, great.
或者如果你愿意，那就太好了。
I mean, I feel like one of the indicators of not being an alcoholic is having a casual take-it-or-leave-it relationship.
我的意思是，我觉得不是酒鬼的标志之一就是拥有一种随意的“要么接受要么放弃”的关系。
Thank you.
谢谢。
See?
看？
That's why I was an alcoholic.
这就是为什么我是个酒鬼。
[LAUGHS] Because it was the mental obsession.
[笑]因为这是精神上的痴迷。
Right, right.
对，对。
So the fact that you're obsessively talking about, shouldn't I, should I, should I, I mean, did that-- is that the reason that you were having the conversation over and over again?
所以事实上你一直在痴迷地谈论，我不应该，我应该，我应该，我的意思是，这样做——这就是你们一遍又一遍地进行谈话的原因吗？
Because every time you had that conversation, that would reinforce the idea that you were an alcoholic, because here you are, bringing it up again.
因为每次你进行这样的谈话，都会强化你是一个酒鬼的想法，因为你在这里再次提起它。
And if you were not an alcoholic, you wouldn't need to be having this conversation as many times as you were.
如果你不是酒鬼，你就不需要像以前那样多次进行这样的谈话。
Right.
正确的。
So and then the only way to get out of that is to really like, let's do this.
因此，摆脱困境的唯一方法就是真正喜欢，让我们这样做吧。
We go to a wine store on the way home.
我们在回家的路上去了一家葡萄酒商店。
We pay for it.
我们为此付出代价。
We go home.
我们回家吧。
My husband makes a pasta dish with chicken.
我丈夫用鸡肉做了一道意大利面。
He lights two candles, pours two glasses of wine.
他点了两支蜡烛，倒了两杯酒。
And so I take a little sip--
于是我喝了一小口——
And?
还有？
Tina Dupuy --and I say, it tastes like the '70s.
Tina Dupuy——我说，它尝起来像 70 年代。
[LAUGHS] Meaning?
[笑]什么意思？
Tina Dupuy Meaning I had tasted white wine before, but I was like five.
蒂娜·杜普伊（Tina Dupuy）的意思是我以前尝过白葡萄酒，但我当时才五岁。
I was young.
我还年轻。
But I remember that taste.
但我记得那个味道。
That taste immediately came back to me.
我立刻又想起了那种味道。
And then I tried to eat my meal, and it was-- I didn't enjoy the taste.
然后我试着吃我的饭，但我不喜欢这个味道。
It was really acidic.
真的很酸。
And were you waiting to-- Tina Dupuy Oh yeah.
你在等吗—— Tina Dupuy 哦，是的。
So I was like, when am I going to want to like, go and do shots at the corner bar?
所以我就想，我什么时候才能想去街角的酒吧喝酒呢？
I mean, who knows?
我的意思是，谁知道呢？
And I went to sleep.
然后我就去睡觉了。
You know.
你知道。
Had a glass of wine, and it was completely uneventful.
喝了一杯酒，完全平安无事。
Nancy Updike I just want to make sure I'm understanding.
南希·厄普代克 我只是想确保我理解了。
You are saying you don't think you're an alcoholic.
你是说你不认为自己是个酒鬼。
I'm not an alcoholic.
我不是酒鬼。
Not by any measure.
无论如何衡量都不是。
And now you drink-- Tina Dupuy Now I drink.
现在你喝酒了——蒂娜·杜普伊现在我喝酒了。
I'm new at this, right?
我是新手，对吧？
So I've been drinking for about seven months now.
所以我现在已经喝酒了大约七个月了。
And if I drink more than two, I go to sleep.
如果我喝超过两杯，我就会睡觉。
It hasn't changed anything else in your life.
它没有改变你生活中的任何其他事情。
Not at all.
一点也不。
I've had no personality change.
我的性格没有改变。
I've had none of-- when I start to feel the effects of alcohol, I stop drinking.
我从来没有喝过——当我开始感受到酒精的影响时，我就会停止饮酒。
Now that I actually know what alcoholism is and what normal drinking is-- more importantly, I know what normal drinking is.
现在我真的知道了什么是酗酒，什么是正常饮酒——更重要的是，我知道什么是正常饮酒。
I'm average.
我很平均。
Which is probably the most jarring thing that has happened, that after all of this, I'm incredibly average when it comes to my alcohol consumption.
这可能是发生过的最令人震惊的事情，在经历了这一切之后，我的饮酒量却非常平均。
I've told a very select group of people that I'm drinking.
我告诉过一群经过精心挑选的人我正在喝酒。
Because one, I'm afraid that people who I have helped over the years in AA will be affected, and it'll make them question their alcoholism.
因为第一，我担心多年来我在 AA 中帮助过的人会受到影响，这会让他们质疑自己的酗酒行为。
And maybe if they drink again, then I'll feel responsible.
也许如果他们再喝酒，我就会感到有责任。
There's also the aspect of that I was lying.
还有一个方面是我撒谎了。
I mean, I was lying.
我的意思是，我在撒谎。
I was lying to myself.
我在对自己撒谎。
But I was lying.
但我在撒谎。
And so I am embarrassed.
所以我很尴尬。
It seems like I just took a long time to fig-- it's like, it's embarrassing that I didn't have this kind of self awareness.
好像我花了很长时间才想出来的——好像，很尴尬，我没有这种自我意识。
The postscript to drinking for Tina has been getting straight in her mind why she thought she was an alcoholic in the first place.
为蒂娜喝酒的后记一直在她的脑海中清晰地浮现，为什么她一开始就认为自己是个酒鬼。
How does a non-alcoholic child come to believe that she's a stone drunk?
一个不酗酒的孩子怎么会相信自己已经喝醉了呢？
Well, here's how she puts it together now.
好吧，这就是她现在如何将它们组合在一起的。
She went to the first AA meeting just because, nothing else to do.
她去参加第一次 AA 会议只是因为，没有别的事可做。
This was in the place she was being held before going to the group home at 13.
这是她 13 点去集体之家之前被关押的地方。
And one of the AA phrases that caught Tina's ear was, relate to the feelings.
蒂娜听到的 AA 短语之一是“与感受相关”。
Because boy, did she relate.
因为男孩，她有联系吗？
In AA, she heard other people talk, one after another, about things that were so familiar to her.
在AA里，她听到其他人一个接一个地谈论她熟悉的事情。
Feeling rejected by their families, winding up in hospital or rehab, feeling trapped and furious and desperate.
感觉被家人拒绝，被送进医院或康复中心，感觉被困、愤怒和绝望。
People said to her, I used to be exactly where you are now.
人们对她说，我曾经就是你现在的处境。
And they had all done what she had done.
他们都做了她做过的事。
They had lashed out.
他们猛烈抨击。
They had acted badly.
他们的行为很糟糕。
There was no other way of explaining at the time.
当时没有其他方法可以解释。
And it wasn't until, I mean, this is very recently, there was no way for me to figure out why I kept on getting locked up.
直到，我的意思是，就在最近，我无法弄清楚为什么我一直被关起来。
Why I kept on being sent away.
为什么我总是被送走。
Why my mother was fuming at me.
为什么我妈妈对我发脾气。
If Tina was an alcoholic, everything made sense.
如果蒂娜是个酒鬼，一切都说得通了。
She was the problem.
她就是问题所在。
She was the only problem, and if she stuck with the program, she could fix the problem.
她是唯一的问题，如果她坚持这个计划，她就能解决问题。
AA gave Tina a whole life-- goals, discipline, a belief system, people to call when things were bad, people to call when things were good.
AA 给了蒂娜完整的生活——目标、纪律、信仰体系、事情不好时可以打电话的人、事情好的时候可以打电话的人。
She graduated from high school at 17, emancipated herself from foster care, started her adult life.
17岁，她高中毕业，从寄养家庭中解放出来，开始了成年生活。
It's really liberating to find your people.
找到你的人真的是一种解放。
To find people who you relate to.
寻找与您有联系的人。
To find people that ask you to come back.
找到请你回来的人。
And that was what I experienced.
这就是我的经历。
I didn't have people asking me to come back.
没有人要求我回来。
And they said at every meeting, keep coming back.
他们在每次会议上都说，继续回来。
And I was like, OK.
我当时想，好吧。
I became a contributing member of society.
我成为了对社会有贡献的一员。
I mean, that's a phrase that they use.
我的意思是，这是他们使用的一个短语。
But I stopped feeling sorry for myself.
但我不再为自己感到难过。
I looked at other people whose lives were much more difficult, for whatever reason, and I stopped feeling sorry for the lot I was given.
我看着其他人，无论出于何种原因，他们的生活要困难得多，我不再为自己所得到的命运感到遗憾。
And being able to feel true happiness, just feeling like I was OK, and there was no crisis, that was what I learned in Alcoholics Anonymous.
能够感受到真正的幸福，感觉自己很好，没有危机，这就是我在戒酒互诫协会学到的东西。
That is the irony, right?
这就是讽刺，对吧？
I'm not an alcoholic, but my life was saved by AA.
我不是酒鬼，但 AA 救了我的命。
I asked Tina if any of her friends are worried about her now that she's drinking.
我问蒂娜，她喝酒后是否有朋友担心她。
She said, no, not anymore.
她说，不，不再了。
But she said, sometimes she still has a little voice in her head, saying, yeah you're fine now.
但她说，有时她脑子里仍然有一个小声音说，是的，你现在很好。
But what if there's some threshold you just haven't crossed, and when you do, you turn into the full-blown drunk you always thought you were?
但是，如果你还没有跨过某个门槛，当你跨过的时候，你就变成了你一直以为自己是的彻头彻尾的醉汉，该怎么办？
But the voice has zero evidence for that scenario.
但这个声音对于这种情况的证据为零。
It's just trying to keep the story going.
它只是想让故事继续下去。
Nancy Updike is one of the producers of our program.
南希·厄普代克是我们节目的制作人之一。
Our program was produced today by Stephanie Foo and myself, with Ben Calhoun, Sean Cole, Chana Joffe-Walt, Sarah Koenig, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Brian Reed, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
今天我们的节目由 Stephanie Foo 和我本人以及 Ben Calhoun、Sean Cole、Chana Joffe-Walt、Sarah Koenig、Miki Meek、Jonathan Menjivar、Brian Reed、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 共同制作。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Production help from JP Dukes.
JP Dukes 提供制作帮助。
Seth Lind is our operations director.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的运营总监。
Emily Condon's our production manager.
艾米丽·康登是我们的生产经理。
Elise Bergerson's our office manager.
埃莉斯·伯格森是我们的办公室经理。
Adrianne Mathiowetz runs our website.
阿德琳娜·马修韦茨 (Adrianne Mathiowetz) 负责运营我们的网站。
Elna Baker scouts stories for our show.
艾尔娜·贝克为我们的节目寻找故事。
Research help today from Christopher Swetala and Michelle Harris.
Christopher Swetala 和 Michelle Harris 今天提供了研究帮助。
Editing help today from Joel Lovell.
今天由乔尔·洛弗尔 (Joel Lovell) 提供编辑帮助。
Music help today from Damien Graef.
今天达米安·格雷夫 (Damien Graef) 提供音乐帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
[致谢] 我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们计划的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, the other day, I walked into his office and caught him licking-- licking an old vinyl copy of Peter Frampton's Frampton Comes Alive.
你知道，有一天，我走进他的办公室，发现他在舔——舔彼得·弗兰普顿的《弗兰普顿来了》的旧黑胶唱片。
I was like, Torey, what are you doing?
我当时想，托雷，你在做什么？
It tastes like the '70s.
尝起来像70年代的味道。
Ira Glass I'm Ira Glass.
艾拉·格拉斯 我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。