538: Is This Working? - This American Life

You are using an outdated browser.

您正在使用过时的浏览器。

Please upgrade your browser or activate Google Chrome Frame to improve your experience.

请升级您的浏览器或激活 Google Chrome 浏览器内嵌框架以改善您的体验。

Sign up for a free Life Partners trial, and you can watch the video “A Night of Stories and Improv.”

注册免费试用《Life Partners》，您可以观看视频“故事与即兴表演之夜”。

00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #538 | October 17, 2014 538: Is This Working?

00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 538 集 | 2014 年 10 月 17 日 538：这有效吗？

Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue Ira Glass OK, you're a middle school teacher.

序言 Ira Glass 好吧，你是一名中学老师。

Here's a situation that apparently happens all the time.

这种情况显然一直在发生。

A kid walks into your classroom wearing a hat.

一个孩子戴着帽子走进你的教室。

There's a rule-- hats are not allowed in school.

有一条规定——学校里不准戴帽子。

You tell him to take it off.

你告诉他把它脱掉。

He does.

他做到了。

Ten minutes later, you're teaching, you look at the kid, he's wearing the hat again.

十分钟后，你在教学，你看看那个孩子，他又戴上了帽子。

Again, you tell him to take it off.

你再次告诉他把它脱掉。

This time, he doesn't.

这一次，他没有。

And then he escalates the situation.

然后他让局势升级。

He curses to himself.

他暗骂自己。

What do you do?

你做什么工作？

Right then and there, I'd say, "That response was not acceptable, and I won't tolerate that.

就在那时，我会说：“这种反应是不可接受的，我不会容忍这种情况。

Take off your hat, and put it into your bookbag."

把帽子摘下来，放进书包里。”

Serena Nickle in Connecticut says that usually works.

康涅狄格州的瑟琳娜·尼克尔表示，这通常是有效的。

You demand compliance.

你要求遵守。

Though one of our producers, Chana Joffe-Walt, asked over a dozen middle school teachers.

尽管我们的制作人查纳·乔夫-沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt) 询问了十几位中学老师。

Jose Vilson in New York would have a very different response.

纽约的何塞·维尔森 (Jose Vilson) 会有截然不同的反应。

"Let's have a conversation." Chana Joffe-Walt So like, you're in the middle of teaching, and you would say, "John, let's have a conversation about your hat?"

“我们谈谈吧。” Chana Joffe-Walt 就像，你在教学中，你会说，“约翰，让我们来谈谈你的帽子吧？”

Yeah.

是的。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

Ira Glass Jeff Reamer says that the key is no conversation, no stopping instruction at all, as he gives the kid a demerit on the kid's weekly behavior report.

艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）杰夫·雷默（Jeff Reamer）说，关键是不要交谈，根本不要停止指导，因为他在孩子的每周行为报告中给孩子扣了分。

If I'm saying, "Ladies and gentlemen, today, we are going to talk about three different styles of argumentation-- John, right now, you're choosing to earn a major deduction, because you put the hat back on.

如果我说，“女士们先生们，今天，我们将讨论三种不同风格的论证——约翰，现在，你选择获得重大扣分，因为你把帽子戴回去了。

Please take it off.

请把它摘下来。

We're choosing to learn about the three different types of argumentative styles-- ethos, logos, and pathos." It'd be like that.

我们选择学习三种不同类型的辩论风格——精神、标志和悲情。”就这样吧。

Smooth, right?

光滑，对吧？

Jamien Jacobs in Maine would not use any words at all.

缅因州的杰米安·雅各布斯 (Jamien Jacobs) 根本不会使用任何词语。

She'd give the kid a look.

她会给这孩子看一下。

She'd do the whole thing in a look.

她一眼就能完成所有事情。

If he doesn't take off the hat, one of my techniques is I take my shoe off, and I chuck it.

如果他不脱掉帽子，我的技巧之一就是脱掉鞋子，然后把它扔掉。

You take your-- wait.

你带上你的——等等。

You take your shoe off?

你脱鞋了吗？

Yeah.

是的。

Like if I'm wearing clogs, I'd take off my shoe, and I'd put it in my hand, and I'd say, "OK, take off the hat, or I'm going to chuck it."

就像我穿着木鞋一样，我会脱掉鞋子，把它放在手里，然后我会说，“好吧，脱掉帽子，否则我就把它扔掉。”

Well, they never know.

好吧，他们永远不知道。

But I've thrown plenty of shoes, and kids love that, too.

但我扔了很多鞋子，孩子们也很喜欢。

All across the country, across different schools in different states, when it comes to disciplining young people, teachers are winging it.

全国各地，不同州的不同学校，在管教年轻人方面，老师们都在即兴发挥。

In 19 states, you're still allowed to hit kids if they think that'll work.

在 19 个州，如果孩子认为有效，你仍然可以打孩子。

And lots do.

很多人都这样做。

Chana asked the teachers what they learned about controlling their classrooms in their teacher training programs.

查纳询问老师们，他们在教师培训计划中学到了如何控制课堂。

Most of them said, not much.

大多数人都说，不多。

There's this great book that's out now by a reporter named Elizabeth Green, about teacher training.

一位名叫伊丽莎白·格林的记者现在出版了一本关于教师培训的好书。

It says, "Incredibly, at some education schools, disciplining kids, managing your class, it's not even a subject on the curriculum." When you ask teachers, OK, so really, how did you learn to do that thing that you do with your voice, your face, your shoe, they often answer with a name, a kid's name-- that kid taught me so much.

上面写道：“令人难以置信的是，在一些教育学校，管教孩子、管理班级，这甚至都不是课程中的主题。”当你问老师，好吧，说真的，你是如何学会用你的声音、你的脸、你的鞋子做那些事情时，他们经常用一个名字来回答，一个孩子的名字——那个孩子教会了我很多东西。

I had this one student, Alex, who-- I'd tried everything.

我有一个学生，亚历克斯，我已经尝试了一切。

His name was Jeff.

他的名字叫杰夫。

Male Teacher 2 I'll call her Z.

男老师2 我就叫她Z吧。

We'll call him Johnny.

我们就叫他约翰尼吧。

We'll call him Johnny.

我们就叫他约翰尼吧。

Johnny and Z and Jeff and Alex are our nation's education school.

约翰尼和 Z 以及杰夫和亚历克斯是我们国家的教育学校。

These are the kids who were so hard to discipline that teachers just had to figure out what to do.

这些孩子很难管教，老师们只能想办法该怎么做。

So each teacher finds an approach that works for them.

因此，每位老师都会找到适合自己的方法。

Does it work for the kids?

对孩子有用吗？

Who knows?

谁知道？

There's no clear answer.

没有明确的答案。

There's no best practice that educators agree on.

没有教育工作者一致同意的最佳实践。

Which is weird, since this is where kids should be learning to control themselves and how to live with others in the world.

这很奇怪，因为这是孩子们应该学习控制自己以及如何与世界上的其他人生活在一起的地方。

It's so essential.

这是非常重要的。

This is so basic.

这是非常基本的。

And there are lots of educators out there who are convinced that the way that we do discipline isn't just ineffective.

有很多教育工作者相信，我们的管教方式不仅是无效的。

They think it's actively messing kids up.

他们认为这正在把孩子们搞得一团糟。

So today, we're going to talk about schools, but not about curriculum or testing or standards or any of the other stuff that people usually talk about on the radio and in the media when they talk about schools.

因此，今天，我们将讨论学校，但不讨论课程、测试、标准或人们在谈论学校时通常在广播和媒体上谈论的任何其他内容。

Today, we're going to talk about discipline, because, you know, you kind of have to nail discipline before you can do anything else in a classroom.

今天，我们要讨论纪律，因为，你知道，在课堂上做任何其他事情之前，你必须先遵守纪律。

Chana Joffe-Walt has been looking into this for months.

查纳·乔夫-沃尔特几个月来一直在研究这个问题。

She has learned things are not going so great with discipline.

她了解到，如果遵守纪律，事情的进展就不那么顺利了。

And lots of educators and parents are asking, is this working?

许多教育工作者和家长都在问，这有效吗？

Is this the best we can do?

这是我们能做的最好的事情吗？

From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.

来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

Act One, "Time Out." OK, so let's start this show about discipline in schools at the very beginning of a kid's school experience, in preschool, with kids so young that you would think it would be pretty straightforward how to handle behavioral problems when they act up.

第一幕，“超时”。好吧，让我们从孩子刚开始上学的时候开始这个关于学校纪律的节目，在学前班，孩子们还那么小，你会认为当他们行为问题时如何处理他们的行为问题是非常简单的。

Like, how bad can these kids be?

就像，这些孩子能有多糟糕？

And at this young age, this is where the question first emerges of whether the wrong kind of discipline in school will screw up a kid, maybe for years to come.

在这么小的年纪，这就是首先出现的问题：学校里错误的纪律是否会毁掉一个孩子，也许在未来的几年里。

Here's Chana.

这是查娜。

JJ's conversational style is to tell you things he knows for sure.

JJ 的谈话风格是告诉你他确定知道的事情。

He's no fan of ambiguity, sticks with the facts.

他不喜欢模棱两可，坚持事实。

He's five.

他五岁了。

He does not like salad.

他不喜欢沙拉。

His new house is OK, but it does not have a pantry.

他的新房子还可以，但是没有储藏室。

He can spell the word "loss." His mom has a belly, because there's a baby in there.

他能拼出“损失”这个词。他妈妈有一个肚子，因为里面有一个婴儿。

The baby will have brown skin.

宝宝的皮肤将会是棕色的。

And he knows this because his mom said it is for sure, for sure.

他知道这一点，因为他妈妈说这是肯定的，肯定的。

He does not like salad.

他不喜欢沙拉。

I do like the onions in it.

我很喜欢里面的洋葱。

I eat them a lot.

我经常吃它们。

But I do not eat the salad.

但我不吃沙拉。

I just eat the chicken, 'cause the chicken goes with the salad.

我只吃鸡肉，因为鸡肉和沙拉很配。

And I don't eat the salad.

而且我不吃沙拉。

JJ just started kindergarten.

JJ刚上幼儿园。

I ask him what preschool was like before kindergarten.

我问他上幼儿园之前学前班是什么样的。

He tells me, "I was in green room with Miss Bethany and I-don't-remember-her-name lady.

他告诉我，“我和贝瑟尼小姐以及一位我不记得她名字的女士一起在休息室里。

There were three racecars." More blocks than a number he knows.

一共有三辆赛车。”比他知道的数字还要多。

Later, I talk to JJ's mom, Tunette Powell.

后来，我和 JJ 的妈妈 Tunette Powell 交谈。

And she told me a very different story about JJ's time in preschool.

她给我讲了一个关于 JJ 在学前班的故事。

She says, last January, she was in the car on the way to a meeting.

她说，去年一月，她在车里去参加一个会议。

They called my husband, and my husband called me.

他们给我丈夫打电话，我丈夫也给我打电话。

And my husband said, "We need to pick up JJ." And I said, "Pick him up?" And he said, "Yeah.

我丈夫说：“我们需要去接 JJ。”我说：“去接他吗？”他说：“是的。

They said he threw a chair and he needs to go home."

他们说他扔了一把椅子，他需要回家。”

And I'm like, are you kidding?

我说，你在开玩笑吗？

That he threw a chair?

他扔了一把椅子？

I'm not saying that he can't do anything, but he is the little guy who I worry about, because, even if him and his brother, who's two years younger than him, if his brother hits him, he will cry.

我不是说他什么都做不了，但他是我担心的小家伙，因为，即使他和他比他小两岁的弟弟，如果他哥哥打了他，他也会哭。

Very, very sensitive and not very aggressive at all.

非常非常敏感，而且一点也不具有攻击性。

Still, as she exited the highway, she did a special form of mental gymnastics I believe is familiar to parents everywhere.

尽管如此，当她驶出高速公路时，她还是做了一种特殊的心理体操，我相信世界各地的父母都熟悉这种体操。

You know, automatically, then you're thinking, wow, I failed as a parent.

你知道，然后你会自然而然地想，哇，我作为父母很失败。

It was difficult.

这很困难。

You went right there?

你就去那儿了？

You went to, I failed as a parent?

你去了，我作为家长很失败吗？

When Tunette got to the school, the woman at the front desk gave her a form that said JJ threw a chair.

当Tunette到达学校时，前台的女士给了她一张表格，上面写着JJ扔了一把椅子。

She asked Tunette to sign it.

她请图内特签字。

So she did.

所以她做到了。

We're not people who just say, oh, blame the school or blame the teacher or, oh, it's somebody else's problem.

我们不是那些只会说，哦，责怪学校或责怪老师，或者，哦，这是别人的问题的人。

I mean, we immediately looked at what do we need to do to right the ship.

我的意思是，我们立即研究了需要采取哪些措施来纠正这艘船。

This is not OK.

这是不行的。

I mean, we told him, you're going to go to your room.

我的意思是，我们告诉他，你要去你的房间。

And I talked to him about everything.

我和他谈论了一切。

And we thought, OK, he seems like he understood.

我们想，好吧，他看起来好像明白了。

And so I thought, OK, this is a one-time thing, never happen again.

所以我想，好吧，这是一次性的事情，永远不会再发生了。

And then, in the same week, JJ was at school for about 30 minutes.

然后，在同一周，JJ 在学校呆了大约 30 分钟。

And they called me.

他们打电话给我。

They said that he had been crying at the breakfast table.

他们说他在早餐桌上哭了。

And they didn't know why he was crying.

他们不知道他为什么哭。

That they kept asking him why he was crying, and he would not tell them why he was crying.

他们一直问他为什么哭，他不告诉他们为什么哭。

And then he pushed a chair again.

然后他又推了一把椅子。

And neither of the times, he didn't hit anybody.

而且这两次他都没有打到任何人。

But of course, he could have.

但当然，他可以。

JJ was sent to his room again.

JJ又被送回了自己的房间。

No cartoons, no fruit snacks.

没有动画片，没有水果零食。

A couple weeks after that, JJ spit on another kid.

几周后，JJ 向另一个孩子吐口水。

He got sent home again.

他又被送回家了。

Tunette asked for more information this time.

Tunette 这次要求提供更多信息。

And there was a long back-and-forth about the definition of "spit on." It was not projectile; more like dribble.

关于“随地吐痰”的定义，人们争论了很长时间。它不是射弹；而是射弹。更像是运球。

And at home, they did the same routine-- you're going to go to your room, no treats.

在家里，他们也做了同样的事情——你要回到自己的房间，没有请客。

But Tunette worried JJ didn't seem to understand that, when he was bad at school, being sent home was a punishment.

但 Tunette 担心 JJ 似乎不明白，当他在学校表现不好时，被送回家是一种惩罚。

Tunette didn't think he got that connection.

图内特认为他没有这种联系。

I don't.

我不知道。

I think he almost saw it as a good thing, where, yes, it was sad, because Mommy wasn't happy with me.

我想他几乎认为这是一件好事，但，是的，这很悲伤，因为妈妈对我不满意。

But at the same time, when I pick them up at school, they're not running away from me; they're running to me.

但与此同时，当我去学校接他们时，他们并没有逃离我；而是在我的身边。他们向我跑来。

I don't know.

我不知道。

Chana Joffe-Walt Have you heard that word before?

Chana Joffe-Walt 你以前听过这个词吗？

Yes.

是的。

Chana Joffe-Walt And what does it mean?

Chana Joffe-Walt 这是什么意思？

I forgot.

我忘了。

But I do have Captain Damerica.

但我确实有达美利卡队长。

He's the guy with the shield.

他就是那个拿着盾牌的人。

So yeah, I don't think he got it.

所以是的，我认为他没有明白。

And of course he didn't.

当然他没有。

He was four years old at the time.

当时他四岁。

To me, it sounds crazy to suspend a four-year-old.

对我来说，让一个四岁的孩子停学听起来很疯狂。

Like, there has got to be a better way to get your message across.

就像，必须有更好的方式来传达您的信息。

It didn't seem like it was messing him up or anything.

看起来这并没有给他带来什么麻烦。

JJ didn't seem traumatized.

JJ看上去并没有受到什么创伤。

It just didn't look like it was working.

它只是看起来不起作用。

Then, after the third time he was suspended, Tunette started to feel like there was only one explanation for why it wasn't working.

然后，在第三次被停职后，图内特开始觉得只有一种解释为什么它不起作用。

And it wasn't her parenting or the school.

这不是她的父母或学校。

It wasn't JJ.

这不是JJ。

It was her.

是她。

She was a problem student when she was a kid.

她小时候是个问题学生。

And she felt like, somehow, she passed that on to her son.

她觉得，不知何故，她把这种感觉遗传给了她的儿子。

She disrupted class a lot, got in fights.

她经常扰乱课堂秩序，打架斗殴。

I got in trouble all the time as a kid.

我小时候总是遇到麻烦。

I was suspended frequently.

我经常被停职。

So when my kids started getting suspended, it's like--

所以当我的孩子们开始被停学时，就像——

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

I was suspended and expelled from preschool.

我被停学并被幼儿园开除。

Mm-hm.

嗯嗯。

Like three, four years old?

好像三四岁？

Tunette Powell Yes.

调谐鲍威尔 是的。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

And so when I see my own kids getting suspended from school, you know, my kids are me.

因此，当我看到自己的孩子被停学时，你知道，我的孩子就是我。

So I got in trouble a lot when I was little.

所以我小时候遇到了很多麻烦。

My kids are me.

我的孩子就是我。

Doesn't matter if the situation's different.

如果情况不同也没关系。

It doesn't even matter.

这根本不重要。

They're just me.

他们只是我。

It had mattered greatly to Tunette that the situation would be different for her kids.

对图内特来说，重要的是她的孩子们的情况会有所不同。

She spent the last decade taking one enormous step after another away from her childhood.

在过去的十年里，她一步步远离童年。

Her dad was in prison when she was a kid.

当她还是个孩子的时候，她的父亲在监狱里。

Her children have a father.

她的孩子们有一个父亲。

Her mom never had enough money.

她妈妈的钱从来都不够。

She and her husband moved to Omaha so Tunette's husband could be in the Air Force.

她和她的丈夫搬到了奥马哈，这样图内特的丈夫就可以加入空军。

They have a steady income, four bedrooms, and a lawn.

他们有稳定的收入、四间卧室和一片草坪。

Tunette went into kindergarten knowing she was a bad kid.

图内特进入幼儿园时知道自己是个坏孩子。

And she lived up to that reputation all the way through school.

她在整个学校期间都没有辜负这个声誉。

But my kids seem so different.

但我的孩子们看起来很不一样。

They seem like-- my kids are so good.

他们看起来——我的孩子们太棒了。

They're so happy.

他们很高兴。

They're so full of life.

他们是如此充满生机。

They just seemed a lot different than I did at three or four.

他们看起来和我三四岁的时候有很大不同。

And they're so well-behaved at home and in public, when we go to restaurants and any of these places like that.

当我们去餐馆或类似的地方时，他们在家里和公共场合都表现得很好。

Anywhere we take them, to the mall, anywhere, people are just always stopping us and saying, how are your kids so well behaved?

无论我们带他们去哪里，无论是去商场还是任何地方，人们总是拦住我们说，你的孩子怎么表现得这么好？

So the fact that that was not very consistent at school just broke my heart.

所以，学校里的情况并不一致，这一事实让我心碎。

A few weeks after JJ was first suspended, Tunette took him to a birthday party.

JJ 第一次被停职几周后，Tunette 带他去参加了一个生日聚会。

And this is where, at this point, remember, I'm feeling really low on myself, I guess my parenting skills.

这就是在这一点上，请记住，我对自己感到非常低落，我猜我的养育技巧。

And so I go to this birthday party.

所以我去参加这个生日聚会。

And it's for his friend, one of his little friends.

这是给他的朋友，他的小朋友之一。

And all the parents are kind of talking, all the women parents.

所有的父母都在说话，所有的女父母。

And we're talking about the preschool.

我们正在谈论幼儿园。

And some of them are saying things that they like and don't like and all these different things.

他们中的一些人正在说他们喜欢和不喜欢的事情以及所有这些不同的事情。

And then I said, well, JJ's been suspended.

然后我说，好吧，JJ 被停职了。

And they were like, suspended?

他们就像，被停职了？

And I'm like, yeah.

我想，是的。

And they said, they suspend kids?

他们说，他们让孩子停学？

They were shocked.

他们很震惊。

And I said, absolutely.

我说，绝对。

I said, he's been suspended, and I started telling them all the things that he had done.

我说，他被停职了，我开始告诉他们他所做的所有事情。

And then one parent's like, I wonder why my kid hasn't been suspended.

然后一位家长说，我想知道为什么我的孩子没有被停学。

And I'm like, hm?

我想，嗯？

What?

什么？

So then she says, well, my son, he hit this kid on purpose, and they had to rush that kid to the hospital, and all I got was a phone call.

然后她说，好吧，我的儿子，他是故意打这个孩子的，他们不得不赶紧把那个孩子送到医院，而我只接到一个电话。

And I was like, hm.

我当时想，嗯。

And one after another, they kept telling me different stuff-- my kid did this, my kid did that, my kid bit somebody, my kid-- all these things.

他们一个接一个地告诉我不同​​的事情——我的孩子做了这个，我的孩子做了那个，我的孩子咬了某人，我的孩子——所有这些事情。

And my kids, they're all the same age, all the same class.

我的孩子们，他们都是同龄人，都在同一个班级。

And only JJ had been sent home.

只有JJ被送回家了。

So I was like, what is going on?

所以我就想，这是怎么回事？

That's when I thought to myself, something is not right.

那时我心里想，有些事情不太对劲。

The other parents were white at this birthday party?

这次生日聚会上其他父母都是白人？

The other parents were white.

其他父母都是白人。

It was three other parents and myself.

是另外三位家长和我自己。

And they were white.

他们是白人。

And where we live, the majority of the kids are white.

在我们住的地方，大多数孩子都是白人。

And I'm not a person who does that, oh, everything's against black people, or I don't wake up and look for situations where there's discrimination or racism or any of that.

我不是一个这样做的人，哦，一切都是针对黑人的，或者我不会醒来并寻找存在歧视或种族主义或任何此类情况的情况。

So I wasn't-- oh, they're just doing this because my kids are black.

所以我不是——哦，他们这样做只是因为我的孩子是黑人。

I had no reason to believe that.

我没有理由相信这一点。

After that birthday party, it forced me to consider it.

那次生日聚会之后，我不得不考虑这个问题。

After the birthday party, Tunette's younger son, Joah, got suspended.

生日聚会结束后，图内特的小儿子乔亚被停职。

Joah was three, though just barely three.

乔亚三岁，虽然还不到三岁。

He'd just had his birthday that week.

那周他刚刚过生日。

Tunette writes for a local Omaha parenting blog called Momaha.

Tunette 为奥马哈当地一家名为 Momaha 的育儿博客撰稿。

She wrote a post with the headline, "Is My Black Preschooler Just Another Statistic?"

她写了一篇标题为“我的黑人学龄前儿童只是另一个统计数据吗？”的帖子。

I reached out to the preschool.

我联系了幼儿园。

And they did not want to comment or even allow me to talk to the director of the school.

他们不想发表评论，甚至不允许我与学校校长交谈。

But Tunette's post got picked up by the Washington Post .

但图内特的帖子被《华盛顿邮报》转载了。

And she started getting dozens of messages, especially from black parents, all over the country.

她开始收到数十条消息，尤其是来自全国各地的黑人父母。

In every part, every little sector, just saying that this has happened to me, and I thought I was by myself.

每个部分，每个小部门，只是说这发生在我身上，我以为是我一个人。

Tunette was very much not by herself.

图内特并不孤单。

This is not a new conversation for lots of black and Latino parents noticing that their kids seem to be punished more harshly than white kids.

对于许多黑人和拉丁裔父母来说，这并不是什么新鲜事，他们注意到他们的孩子似乎比白人孩子受到更严厉的惩罚。

That's not new.

这并不新鲜。

What is new is that some academics and activists have been taking these stories and attaching them to a new, provocative term-- "the school-to-prison pipeline." The idea is that what's happening to Tunette's son is happening to lots of kids of color all over the country.

新鲜的是，一些学者和活动人士一直在将这些故事附加到一个新的、具有挑衅性的术语上——“学校到监狱的管道”。这个想法是，发生在图内特儿子身上的事情也发生在全国各地许多有色人种的孩子身上。

And once those kids are old enough, the excessive punishment in school really messes them up and makes them much more likely to wind up in prison.

一旦这些孩子长大了，学校里的过度惩罚确实会让他们陷入困境，并使他们更有可能入狱。

Yeah, you'd hear stories from advocates who would talk about a school-to-prison pipeline.

是的，你会听到倡导者谈论学校到监狱的管道的故事。

Michael Thompson is the director of the Council of State Governments Justice Center.

迈克尔·汤普森 (Michael Thompson) 是州政府委员会司法中心主任。

It's a nonpartisan think-tanky type place.

这是一个无党派智库类型的地方。

And Thompson kept hearing that term, "school-to-prison pipeline."

汤普森不断听到“学校到监狱的管道”这个词。

His job is to advise lawmakers on crime policy.

他的工作是就犯罪政策向立法者提供建议。

So he was getting asked a lot, is this a real thing?

所以很多人问他，这是真的吗？

Are black and Latino kids really punished more in school and ending up in prison because of it?

黑人和拉丁裔孩子真的在学校受到更多惩罚并因此入狱吗？

It seemed a little far-fetched to Michael Thompson.

对于迈克尔·汤普森来说，这似乎有点牵强。

Um, you know, I think everything's more complicated than that.

嗯，你知道，我认为一切都比这更复杂。

Thompson likes numbers.

汤普森喜欢数字。

He enjoys being in close proximity to Microsoft Excel.

他喜欢近距离接触 Microsoft Excel。

And this is exactly the kind of assignment he does not like, because there are not consistent numbers on discipline in schools.

而这正是他不喜欢的作业，因为学校里关于纪律的数字并不一致。

Every school is different, every district, every state.

每所学校、每个地区、每个州都是不同的。

And then, Michael Thompson learned about Texas.

然后，迈克尔·汤普森了解了德克萨斯州。

Texas, somewhat miraculously, had followed every single public school student from seventh grade through graduation-- the seventh graders of 2000, 2001, 2002.

德克萨斯州奇迹般地跟踪了每一位公立学校学生从七年级到毕业的过程——2000年、2001年和2002年的七年级学生。

And they had documented everything-- report cards, if the kid was poor, Asian, switched schools, gotten in trouble, followed them all the way through graduation.

他们记录了一切——成绩单，孩子是否贫穷，亚洲人，转学，遇到麻烦，一直跟踪他们直到毕业。

So Thomson could ask the researchers in College Station at Texas A&M, how many white kids were suspended?

因此，汤姆森可以询问德克萨斯农工大学大学城的研究人员，有多少白人孩子被停学？

For what?

为了什么？

How many times?

多少次？

Which schools?

哪些学校？

I was just-- all these numbers.

我只是——所有这些数字。

The image I have is these guys in Texas A&M with white lab coats.

我的形象是德克萨斯农工大学的这些穿着白色实验室外套的人。

We would joke that all the lights would dim in College Station each time they would run an analysis of this thing, because it was such a massive data set.

我们开玩笑说，每次他们对这个东西进行分析时，大学站的所有灯光都会变暗，因为这是一个如此庞大的数据集。

The lab coats peered down at a million students' lives-- the schools they attended, how they did, when they got in trouble.

实验服俯视着一百万学生的生活——他们就读的学校、他们的表现、他们何时遇到麻烦。

And they determined that African American and Hispanic students were twice as likely to receive an out-of-school suspension than their white peers for their first offense.

他们还发现，非裔美国学生和西班牙裔学生首次违规而被校外停学的可能性是白人学生的两倍。

When they looked at African American boys in Texas, 83% were suspended at least once.

当他们观察德克萨斯州的非裔美国男孩时，发现 83% 的男孩至少被停学一次。

And usually, they were suspended a lot more than once.

通常，他们会不止一次地被停职。

That includes anything a school calls suspension.

这包括学校所谓的停课。

But still, take 10 black boys, two of them made it through middle and high school without being suspended.

但是，以 10 个黑人男孩为例，其中两个在没有被停学的情况下读完了初中和高中。

And what kind of infractions were they getting suspended for?

他们因什么样的违规行为而被停职？

Most of the time, these were not for big things, like hitting a teacher or bringing a weapon to school.

大多数时候，这些并不是为了大事，比如打老师或携带武器到学校。

They were for things like disrespect, insubordination, willful defiance, the kind of incident that often begins when an angry kid won't take his hat off.

它们是针对诸如不尊重、不服从、故意反抗之类的行为，这种事件通常始于愤怒的孩子不肯脱下帽子的情况。

OK, and one more striking thing you can see in the Texas numbers-- kids who were suspended were much more likely to be arrested outside of school, three times as likely to come into contact with the juvenile justice system.

好吧，你可以在德克萨斯州的数据中看到更引人注目的一件事——被停学的孩子在校外被捕的可能性要高得多，接触少年司法系统的可能性是其三倍。

To be honest, it was a little bit of a spine-tingling moment, because I kept thinking about how city advocates had been saying this is such a common event.

说实话，那是一个有点令人脊背发酸的时刻，因为我一直在思考城市倡导者如何说这是一个如此常见的事件。

And my instant reaction was, this is going to give a whole lot more credibility to this conversation than we've ever had before.

我的第一反应是，这将使这次对话比我们以前的对话更加可信。

They're right.

他们是对的。

I mean, what you're saying is you've just found that they're right.

我的意思是，你的意思是你刚刚发现他们是对的。

The idea of suspending a young person for bad behavior-- what is that?

因青少年行为不良而将其停学的想法——那是什么？

A kid who's disrespectful or insubordinate does not want to be in class.

一个不尊重或不服从命令的孩子不想上课。

So you suspend them?

所以你暂停他们？

Just saying that out loud, that sounds weird, right?

只是大声说出来，听起来很奇怪，对吧？

A couple years ago, the state of Maryland wrote a law-- state legislator sat down and wrote this law-- that says you cannot suspend students for being truant.

几年前，马里兰州制定了一项法律——州立法者坐下来制定了这项法律——规定不能因学生逃学而停课。

If a kid skips school, you can't punish him by telling him, you can't come to school.

如果一个孩子逃学，你不能通过告诉他你不能来学校来惩罚他。

They needed a law to make that clear.

他们需要一部法律来明确这一点。

I talked to a sociologist named Pedro Noguera who told me that, over the last few decades, suspensions have become the go-to move in response to disruptive behavior, for everyone, actually, but especially black and Hispanic kids.

我与一位名叫佩德罗·诺格拉的社会学家交谈过，他告诉我，在过去的几十年里，停学已经成为应对破坏性行为的首选举措，实际上对每个人来说，尤其是黑人和西班牙裔孩子。

Denying them learning time, which is, I think, the most ridiculous part of it.

剥夺他们的学习时间，我认为这是最可笑的部分。

And because of the Texas numbers, we now know that those same kids are at a much higher risk of being arrested.

由于德克萨斯州的数字，我们现在知道这些孩子被逮捕的风险要高得多。

So is there a connection here?

那么这里面有联系吗？

One way to look at this is just that our society gives tougher punishments to black and Hispanic kids when they are JJ's age, when they're in preschool, and when they're in high school, and when they're old enough to go to prison.

看待这个问题的一种方式是，我们的社会对黑人和西班牙裔孩子在JJ这个年纪、上学前班、上高中、以及到了入狱的年龄时给予更严厉的惩罚。

The issue is not school.

问题不在于学校。

It's just racism.

这只是种族主义。

But Noguera says school is an important part of this picture.

但诺格拉表示，学校是这幅图景的重要组成部分。

And here's the theory he laid out for me.

这是他为我提出的理论。

You suspend a kid, he misses school, he finds it hard to catch up, he feels frustrated, falls behind.

如果你让一个孩子停学，他就会缺课，他会发现很难赶上，他会感到沮丧，落后。

And maybe just as important, he learns he is bad.

也许同样重要的是，他知道自己很糟糕。

Because he feels bad when he's in school, he acts bad.

因为他在学校的时候心情不好，所以行为也不好。

There's this assumption that, if we get rid of the bad people, that the good people will be able to learn, the good people will be safe.

有这样一种假设：如果我们除掉坏人，好人就能学习，好人就会安全。

What we continue to ignore is that we are producing the bad people.

我们一直忽视的是，我们正在制造坏人。

We're producing in school the bad behavior.

我们在学校里制造了不良行为。

Producing it through the system of punishment that convinces some kids that they're bad.

通过惩罚制度来产生它，让一些孩子相信他们是坏的。

In May, 2011, Michael Thompson got a meeting with the Attorney General of the United States.

2011年5月，迈克尔·汤普森会见了美国司法部长。

And he showed him the Texas numbers.

他向他展示了德克萨斯州的数字。

And two months later, the Attorney General and the Secretary of Education were standing together at a press conference about discipline in schools.

两个月后，司法部长和教育部长一起出席关于学校纪律的新闻发布会。

They started gathering their own numbers from schools, all over the country this time.

这次他们开始从全国各地的学校收集自己的数据。

And those numbers were worse, even in preschool.

即使在学前班，这些数字也更糟。

In March this year, the Department of Education issued a report that said black children make up 18% of preschoolers, but they make up 48% of preschool children suspended more than once.

今年3月，教育部发布报告称，黑人儿童占学前儿童的18%，但在不止一次停课的学前儿童中，黑人儿童占48%。

When I found that, it was the same month as the birthday party.

当我发现时，正是生日聚会的同一个月。

And I saw the story and the way it just said that black children are suspended at much higher rates.

我看到了这个故事，以及它刚才所说的黑人儿童被停学的比例要高得多的方式。

So I'm thinking to myself, in the same few months that my kids were being suspended, I go to this birthday party, and then I see this report.

所以我心里想，在我的孩子被停职的几个月里，我参加了这个生日聚会，然后我看到了这份报告。

I asked Tunette what the report meant to her.

我问图内特这份报告对她意味着什么。

And she found it hard to summarize so many things.

她发现这么多事情很难概括。

First, when I saw the report, it made me feel like my kids were a target.

首先，当我看到这份报告时，我觉得我的孩子成为了目标。

It just felt like they were a target.

感觉就像他们是一个目标。

I felt like my kids-- is this something that I have to worry about forever?

我觉得我的孩子们——这是我必须永远担心的事情吗？

Is this not something that I could just say was this one-time little thing?

这不是只能说是一次性的小事吗？

It's like something that I'll always have to be aware of and always have to think about and always have to be more involved than the next parent in my kids' lives at school because of these studies.

由于这些研究，这就像我必须始终意识到、始终必须思考、始终必须比下一位家长更多地参与孩子在学校的生活。

And then, second, the report just kind of made me feel like maybe I wasn't as bad.

其次，这份报告让我感觉自己也许没那么糟糕。

She's talking about herself there, as a kid.

她在那里谈论自己小时候的事。

Remember, Tunette was a problem student herself, preschool through high school graduation.

请记住，图内特本人就是一个问题学生，从学前班到高中毕业。

Maybe I could have been-- maybe, since there's such this overwhelming number, maybe that meant that the teachers weren't always doing the right thing.

也许我本可以——也许，因为人数如此之多，也许这意味着老师们并不总是在做正确的事情。

Even as she's saying that, Tunette isn't quite sure she believes it.

即使她这么说，图内特也不确定自己是否相信。

She remembers being bad.

她记得自己很糟糕。

She flipped over a desk in class one time.

有一次她在课堂上掀翻了一张桌子。

That happened.

那件事发生了。

But she also remembers that, after getting suspended in preschool, she walked into kindergarten fully convinced the teacher was the enemy.

但她也记得，在幼儿园被停学后，她走进幼儿园时深信老师是敌人。

And that never went away.

这从未消失。

All those times she was suspended, she didn't come back less angry, ready to obediently follow directions.

在她被停职的所有这些时间里，她回来后的愤怒并没有减轻，准备乖乖听从指示。

It was the opposite.

事实恰恰相反。

Tunette says, "I went into kindergarten knowing I was bad.

图内特说：“我进幼儿园时就知道自己很糟糕。

I went into first grade knowing I was terrible.

我进入一年级时知道自己很糟糕。

And it just went up from there."

然后它就从那里开始上涨。”

Chana Joffe-Walt.

查纳·乔夫-沃尔特。

Coming up, two ambitious, totally interesting, and completely opposite attempts to do discipline differently in schools.

接下来，将有两项雄心勃勃、完全有趣且完全相反的尝试，试图在学校中以不同的方式进行纪律。

That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.

芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。

It's This American Life.

这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Today's program, discipline in schools-- is it working?

今天的计划，学校的纪律——有效吗？

Is it messing kids up?

是不是给孩子添乱了？

One of our producers, Chana Joffe-Walt, has been looking into that for months.

我们的制作人之一查纳·乔夫-沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt) 几个月来一直在研究这个问题。

And in this half of our program, we look at two approaches to discipline that teachers are trying in schools in poor, urban neighborhoods.

在我们项目的这一部分中，我们研究了教师在贫困城市社区的学校中尝试的两种纪律方法。

There's a pattern that teachers see in a lot of these schools.

在许多这样的学校里，老师们都看到了一种模式。

The pattern is this-- the kids walk in on day one, they're already stressed out by the environments they come from, and they act out.

模式是这样的——孩子们进来的第一天，他们就已经因为来自的环境而感到压力，然后他们就会表现出来。

So they get punished.

所以他们受到惩罚。

They get the message that they're bad.

他们得到的信息是他们很糟糕。

They come to hate school.

他们开始讨厌学校。

They act out some more.

他们表演得更多。

I had a kid throw a bathroom stall door out the window from the third floor.

我让一个孩子从三楼把浴室隔间的门扔出窗外。

And I got in trouble, because I let him go to the bathroom.

我遇到了麻烦，因为我让他去了洗手间。

Katie Furr first taught at a middle school in New York City in Washington Heights with tons of kids who acted out.

凯蒂·福尔 (Katie Furr) 最初在纽约市华盛顿高地的一所中学任教，那里有很多表现不佳的孩子。

There were fights.

有人打架。

It didn't really feel like anybody was in charge, except this one eighth grader.

除了这个八年级学生之外，我并没有真正感觉到有人在负责。

He actually yelled down the hall one day, "I run this mother." And I realized he did.

有一天，他实际上在大厅里大喊：“我管理着这位母亲。”我意识到他做到了。

Often, she would just lose control of her class because of this kid named Christopher, a curly-haired 14-year-old with braces who gave her more trouble than anybody else in the class.

通常，她会因为这个名叫克里斯托弗的孩子而失去对班级的控制，这个14岁的卷发男孩戴着牙套，给她带来的麻烦比班上任何人都多。

Like one day, Christopher left class to go to the bathroom.

就像有一天，克里斯托弗下课去洗手间。

And Ms. Furr took his coat.

弗尔女士接过他的外套。

And she locked it in a closet with all the other kids' coats.

她把它和其他孩子的外套一起锁在壁橱里。

There was a school policy in that school to lock up coats like that to make it harder for the kids to leave school in the middle of the day.

那所学校有一项学校政策，要求把这样的外套锁起来，这样孩子们就很难在中午离开学校。

He came back in, and he was like, where's my coat?

他回来了，他问，我的外套呢？

And one of the other kids was like, Ms. Furr locked it in the closet.

其他一个孩子说，福尔女士把它锁在壁橱里了。

And he was like, you steal my stuff, I'm going to steal your stuff.

他说，你偷了我的东西，我也会偷你的东西。

He walked over to my desk.

他走到我的办公桌前。

He's taking staplers, he's throwing papers.

他拿订书机，扔文件。

He's like, throwing stuff around the room.

他就像在房间里乱扔东西。

He's putting stuff in his backpack, in his pockets.

他把东西放进背包里、口袋里。

And the security guard came in, and he didn't really know what to do.

保安进来了，他真的不知道该怎么办。

And I mean, Christopher's running circles around the security guard, my Post-Its falling out of his pants pocket.

我的意思是，克里斯托弗围着保安跑来跑去，我的便利贴从他的裤子口袋里掉了出来。

It was just ridiculous.

这太荒谬了。

In reaction to the kind of chaotic public school where learning is interrupted a lot and so kids fall further behind, two decades ago, some teachers launched one of the biggest recent experiments in American education, a whole movement of charter schools designed for poor minority kids.

为了应对那种混乱的公立学校，学习经常被打断，孩子们进一步落后，二十年前，一些老师发起了美国教育界最近最大的实验之一，即为贫困少数族裔孩子设计的特许学校运动。

The idea is that the classrooms are rigorous, high standards, long school days.

我们的想法是课堂严谨、标准高、上课时间长。

When it comes to discipline, they are strict, they're orderly, they are hyper-vigilant.

在纪律方面，他们是严格的、有秩序的、高度警惕的。

There's a slogan they use-- they sweat the small stuff, so things never get to the point they did in Ms. Furr's class.

他们有一句口号——他们在小事上精益求精，所以事情永远不会达到他们在弗尔女士课堂上所做的那样。

These kinds of charter schools have now been around long enough that the first generation of students who went through them are grown.

这类特许学校已经存在了足够长的时间，经过这些特许学校的第一代学生已经成长起来。

And some of those students now look back on their time in those schools.

其中一些学生现在回顾他们在这些学校的时光。

And they think about, did it work?

他们会想，这有效吗？

What worked?

什么有效？

What didn't work?

什么不起作用？

In this act, Act Two-- we're calling this act "The Guinea Pig Becomes the Scientist"-- Chana talked with one of those students who grew up and decided to become a teacher himself.

在第二幕中——我们称之为“豚鼠成为科学家”——查纳与其中一名长大后决定自己成为一名教师的学生进行了交谈。

Being a human subject is a thing that ranks pretty high on Rousseau Mieze's "who I am" list.

作为一个人类主体，在卢梭·米泽的“我是谁”清单上排名相当靠前。

He grew up in Roxbury, Mass.

他在马萨诸塞州罗克斯伯里长大。

His parents are Haitian immigrants.

他的父母是海地移民。

And at age 10 years old, Rousseau became a human test subject when his mom signed him up to be part of the first sixth-grade class at the Academy of the Pacific Rim.

10 岁时，卢梭的妈妈为他报名参加环太平洋学院第一届六年级班，卢梭成为了人体试验对象。

I like to think of it as first generation charter school.

我喜欢将其视为第一代特许学校。

Students are silent.

学生们沉默了。

Students are sitting up straight.

学生们都坐直了。

There's just no room in a classroom for students not following directions or following the rules or doing what they are asked to do.

教室里没有空间容纳不听从指示、不遵守规则或不按要求做的学生。

And version 1.0 of that was, like, my second day of school, I got suspended, sent home, because I celebrated-- because I got 100 on a math quiz, one of those Math Minutes.

1.0 版本就像是，我上学的第二天，我被停学，送回家，因为我庆祝了——因为我在数学测验中得到了 100 分，这是数学分钟之一。

You got suspended for celebrating a math--

你因为庆祝数学而被停职——

Wait.

等等。

What'd you say?

你说什么？

Rousseau Mieze "Yes!

卢梭·米泽“是的！

Yes!

是的！

I got 100 on my Math Minutes." But I said it out loud.

我的数学分钟得了 100 分。”但我大声说出来了。

Rousseau's teachers had spent years coming up with the theories that created that first week of school.

卢梭的老师花了数年时间提出了创造开学第一周的理论。

They wanted to close the achievement gap with long school days and high expectations.

他们希望通过漫长的学习时间和高期望来缩小成绩差距。

They have lots of slogans-- no excuses, zero tolerance for misbehavior.

他们有很多口号——没有借口，对不当行为零容忍。

And Rousseau's teachers believed this approach would motivate the kids to behave.

卢梭的老师相信这种方法会激励孩子们遵守规矩。

Which it did, for some kids.

对于一些孩子来说，确实如此。

And for some kids, it did not.

对于一些孩子来说，情况并非如此。

I was definitely one of the-- how to put this?

我绝对是其中之一——怎么说呢？

I got in trouble a lot, like, a lot.

我遇到了很多麻烦，很多。

And so--

所以——

Impulse control.

冲动控制。

Talking.

说。

Talking, talking, talking, talking, talking.

说话，说话，说话，说话，说话。

Yeah, that was most of it.

是的，这就是大部分。

A few of Rousseau's childhood teachers went on to start their own schools, went on to scale up their vision of rigorous, no-excuses schools for America's poor and minority students.

卢梭童年时代的一些老师继续创办了自己的学校，继续扩大他们为美国贫困和少数族裔学生建立严格、无借口学校的愿景。

Rousseau's former teachers now write books and talk about the mistakes they made early on and all the important lessons they took from those mistakes, things like, don't shame students by making them stand with their nose to the chalkboard for the rest of the class.

卢梭以前的老师现在写书，谈论他们早期犯下的错误，以及他们从这些错误中吸取的所有重要教训，比如，不要让学生在课堂上的其余时间里用鼻子贴着黑板站立，从而让他们感到羞耻。

Don't make them bark like a dog.

别让他们像狗一样狂吠。

It is not best practice to throw chairs in order to get kids to see you're serious.

为了让孩子们看到你是认真的而扔椅子并不是最佳做法。

And when a kid is late, do not do what a teacher did to Rousseau.

当孩子迟到时，不要做老师对卢梭所做的事情。

He's like, where were you?

他说，你在哪儿？

[MIMICKING YELLING] And I'm like, sorry.

[模仿大喊]我想，抱歉。

I didn't realize-- and then he's like, get out He yells at me and screams at me to leave the classroom.

我没有意识到——然后他就说，滚出去，他对我大喊大叫，让我离开教室。

And then I get up, and I'm walking.

然后我站起来，走路。

And he goes, walk faster!

他走了，走得更快！

And screams at me to walk faster.

还尖叫着让我走快点。

I was so distraught, breathing heavy, crying, just uncontrollable anger and rage at that time.

我当时心烦意乱，呼吸粗重，哭泣，只是无法控制的愤怒和愤怒。

It felt like that.

感觉就是这样。

You're still mad about it.

你还在为此生气。

Rousseau Mieze I'm really angry about it, like really angry about it.

Rousseau Mieze 我对此非常生气，真的非常生气。

To this day, I can't say this guy's name.

直到今天，我还不能说出这个人的名字。

I can't even-- yeah.

我什至不能——是的。

It's really bad.

真的很糟糕。

For Rousseau, there was a big upside to his charter school experience.

对于卢梭来说，他的特许学校经历有很大的好处。

He got into college.

他考上了大学。

He doesn't think that would have happened otherwise.

他认为如果不是这样的话就不会发生这种事。

And it gave him the life he has today.

这给了他今天的生活。

But there were downsides, too.

但也有缺点。

For one, lots of kids couldn't hack it, left the school.

其一，很多孩子无法破解它，因此离开了学校。

Less than half of Rousseau's sixth grade class stayed till graduation.

卢梭六年级的学生只有不到一半能坚持到毕业。

And some of the charter movement's leaders say too many of those who did make it to college ended up dropping out.

一些特许运动的领导人表示，太多进入大学的人最终都辍学了。

One reason for that-- after all the strict control in high school, they floundered when they had no structure in college.

原因之一是，高中时受到了严格的控制，但到了大学却没有结构，他们就陷入了困境。

When Rousseau aged out of being a human test subject, he pretty much immediately moved over to the other side and became a teacher.

当卢梭不再是人类实验对象时，他几乎立即转到了另一边并成为了一名教师。

He got his first gig when he was still in college, a sort of teaching internship at a charter school in Rochester.

当他还在上大学时，他就得到了第一份工作，在罗切斯特的一所特许学校进行教学实习。

He was 21 years old.

那年他21岁。

And he finally had the distance to see things from the outside.

他终于有距离从外面看事物了。

He chaperoned his first field trip to DC, and it kind of freaked him out.

他陪同他第一次去华盛顿实地考察，这让他有点害怕。

And it was just so intense.

而且它是如此激烈。

Kids were single-file lines out of buses, single-file lines lined up in front of a bathroom at a rest stop.

孩子们在公交车外排成一队，在休息站的卫生间前排成一队。

Monitors had to go into the bathrooms.

监控员必须进入浴室。

Kids had to silently use the bathrooms, wash their hands.

孩子们必须安静地使用浴室、洗手。

And Rousseau noticed that the kids were getting noticed.

卢梭注意到孩子们受到了关注。

Grownups around them were smiling, pointing them out.

周围的大人都微笑着指点他们。

I think that there's some of it that's just like, kids and teenagers?

我认为其中有些就像孩子和青少年？

Wow, I've never seen a group of teenagers silently walk into a bathroom, because who sees that?

哇，我从来没有见过一群青少年默默地走进浴室，因为谁看到了？

But also, I think there's a race thing that plays in there, too, where you're like, wow, look at a group of minority children in a rest stop, sort of, like, behaving.

而且，我认为那里也有种族因素，你会觉得，哇，看看一群少数民族儿童在休息站，有点像，行为举止。

Rousseau was good with kids, especially the problem kids.

卢梭对孩子很好，尤其是问题孩子。

When he graduated from college, he got a job through his charter connections.

大学毕业后，他通过特许人脉找到了一份工作。

And Rousseau proceeded to be maybe the only rookie teacher in America who did not struggle with classroom management.

卢梭可能是美国唯一一位没有在课堂管理方面遇到困难的新教师。

Seriously, he was a genius at controlling the kids.

说实话，他在控制孩子方面是个天才。

The thing Rousseau struggled with was letting go of control.

卢梭所挣扎的事情是失去控制。

By this point, the strict charters had pulled back some on the extreme discipline model.

至此，严格的章程已经取消了一些极端纪律模式。

The slogans were still "zero tolerance," "no excuses." But Rousseau also heard a new one-- "power versus purpose." Make sure, when you are exerting your power, there's a reason for it.

口号仍然是“零容忍”、“没有借口”。但卢梭还听到了一个新词——“权力与目的”。确保当你发挥你的力量时，有一个理由。

Is there a reason kids need to walk quietly into a rest stop on a field trip?

孩子们在实地考察时需要安静地走进休息站是否有原因？

Is there a reason you need that kid to unpack his bookbag silently?

你有什么理由需要那个孩子默默地打开他的书包吗？

There might be.

可能有。

But you know, ask the question.

但你知道，问这个问题。

Rousseau said school felt so different than he remembered.

卢梭说学校的感觉与他记忆中的很不一样。

I saw kids laugh and have fun in school.

我看到孩子们在学校里欢声笑语，玩得很开心。

I saw kids learn about commas through-- like one of my coworkers, Angar, he came in as Barack O-comma.

我看到孩子们通过——就像我的一位同事安加尔（Angar）一样来学习逗号，他以巴拉克·奥逗号（Barack O-comma）的名字出现。

And I saw that.

我看到了。

I experienced students learn and did really well on the Rhode Island state test, killed the state.

我经验丰富的学生在罗德岛州测试中学习并取得了很好的成绩，杀死了该州。

But they were having such a good time.

但他们玩得很开心。

And was that the first time that you had seen that?

那是你第一次看到这种情况吗？

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah, it was.

是的，确实如此。

Chana Joffe-Walt And you were like, oh, my god, school can be this way.

Chana Joffe-Walt 你当时想，哦，天啊，学校可以是这样的。

Rousseau and I talked in a small workroom at a school.

卢梭和我在一所学校的小工作室里交谈。

And he had to interrupt our interview, because he said he needed to help with a transition.

他不得不打断我们的采访，因为他说他需要帮助过渡。

I didn't know what that meant, but I followed him into the hallway.

我不知道这意味着什么，但我跟着他走进了走廊。

And about 30 kids walked single-file line, completely silently, out of their classroom, down the hall, down three flights of stairs, to lunch.

大约 30 个孩子排成一队，完全安静地走出教室，穿过大厅，走下三层楼梯，去吃午饭。

This is what that sounds like.

听起来就是这样。

[CLAP] 30 or so 11- and 12-year-old children are streaming past me, down the stairs, single-file.

[鼓掌] 大约 30 个 11 岁和 12 岁的孩子从我身边走过，排成一列走下楼梯。

No arms are flapping, no mouths are open, no one is tripping or falling, all the way to the cafeteria.

一路到自助餐厅，没有人拍打手臂，没有人张开嘴，没有人绊倒或跌倒。

Yeah, well, somebody earned a demerit for talking in that line.

是的，好吧，有人因为在这句话中讲话而被记过。

From me, yeah.

来自我，是的。

For talking.

为了说话。

Chana Joffe-Walt I did not hear any talking.

查纳·乔夫-沃尔特 我没有听到任何说话。

I listened back to try to find the infraction.

我回过头去听，试图找出违规之处。

And I think it must be this.

我想一定是这个。

Yeah.

是的。

That creepy feeling Rousseau had watching the kids at the rest stop, I had that feeling.

卢梭在休息站看着孩子们时那种令人毛骨悚然的感觉，我也有这种感觉。

And it was super confusing, because Rousseau had just spent an hour telling me about these eye-opening experiences he'd had seeing kids laugh and Barack O-comma and how he could never stay quiet as a kid.

这真是令人困惑，因为卢梭刚刚花了一个小时告诉我这些令人大开眼界的经历，他看到孩子们大笑和巴拉克·奥逗号，以及他小时候如何永远无法保持安静。

So we talked about this for a while.

所以我们讨论了一会儿这个问题。

And he says he's ambivalent about how controlling his school was, about all the ways his school today is a lot like the school he attended as a kid.

他说，他对学校的控制程度感到矛盾，对他今天的学校与他小时候就读的学校非常相似。

But the longer he teaches, he says, the better he understands a thing that he did not get as a kid about why his teachers were so harsh.

但他说，他教书的时间越长，他就越能理解他小时候没有明白的事情，即为什么他的老师如此严厉。

And that is that they were scared.

那就是他们害怕了。

They were scared of losing control of the class.

他们害怕失去对班级的控制。

He knew that.

他知道这一点。

That part was obvious to him even when he was a teenager.

即使在他十几岁的时候，这部分对他来说也是显而易见的。

But what he didn't realize at the time was they were also scared for him.

但他当时没有意识到，他们也为他感到害怕。

He knows this now, because he is a teacher of mostly poor, mostly black students, like he was.

他现在知道了这一点，因为他的老师大部分都是贫困学生，大部分是黑人，就像他以前一样。

And he feels this for his students.

他对他的学生也有这种感觉。

He's afraid for their well-being.

他担心他们的福祉。

He's afraid of the odds they will not graduate.

他担心他们无法毕业。

He's afraid they won't get to college, afraid they'll get suspended or arrested for horsing around or being rowdy at the wrong place at the wrong time.

他担心他们考不上大学，担心他们会因为在错误的时间、错误的地点胡闹或吵闹而被停学或逮捕。

So Rousseau finds himself saying things teachers said to him.

所以卢梭发现自己在说老师对他说过的话。

And it's like when you're a parent and you hear your mother's voice coming out of your mouth, and you know what you are saying is such a worthless thing to say to a child, but you say it anyway.

这就像当你为人父母时，你听到母亲的声音从你嘴里发出来，你知道你对孩子说的话毫无价值，但你还是说出来了。

Do you not get why I'm on this level?

你不明白我为什么会达到这个水平吗？

Let me get you on the level that I'm on.

让我告诉你我的水平。

This is why I'm freaking out right now.

这就是为什么我现在很害怕。

I'm so worried, because I look at them, and I see myself, or I see my friends.

我很担心，因为我看着他们，我看到了我自己，或者我看到了我的朋友。

You know, some of those people are in prison right now.

你知道，其中一些人现在正在监狱里。

Rousseau wants to be able to loosen his grip some as a teacher, allow kids more freedom.

卢梭希望能够放松一些作为老师的束缚，给孩子更多的自由。

He's trying to do that.

他正在尝试这样做。

He takes tiny steps.

他迈着小步。

But he says his fear gets in the way.

但他说他的恐惧阻碍了他。

Act Three, "The Talking Cure." So after the Texas numbers came out, and then more studies and punishments in schools, lots of educators and policymakers became convinced that a lot of the discipline that schools administer is not working, especially suspensions.

第三幕，“谈话疗法”。因此，在德克萨斯州的数据公布后，学校进行了更多的研究和惩罚，许多教育工作者和政策制定者开始相信，学校实施的许多纪律并没有发挥作用，尤其是停学。

So if you don't want to suspend kids, what do you do instead?

那么，如果你不想让孩子停学，你会做什么呢？

Well, one alternative that's talked about a lot, that the Obama administration and others are pushing for schools, is something called restorative justice.

嗯，奥巴马政府和其他人正在推动学校的一种被广泛讨论的替代方案是所谓的恢复性司法。

Now, the model for this comes from the criminal justice system, where offenders and victims will sit down in a mediation, and they basically try to talk it out and find a way to restore the harm done by the crime.

现在，这种模式来自刑事司法系统，犯罪者和受害者将坐下来进行调解，他们基本上试图讨论并找到一种方法来恢复犯罪造成的伤害。

That's why it's restorative.

这就是为什么它具有恢复性。

So if this is the answer for schools, we wanted to see what it looks like when you try that in a school setting.

因此，如果这是学校的答案，我们想看看当您在学校环境中尝试时会是什么样子。

Chana spent last spring semester at a public school called Lyons Community School in Brooklyn.

查纳去年春季学期在布鲁克林一所名为里昂社区学校的公立学校度过。

It's a small middle and high school founded nearly eight years ago to attempt this approach with kids.

这是一所小型初中和高中，成立于近八年前，旨在对孩子们尝试这种方法。

Just a quick note, the kids in this story are minors, and some of the names have been changed.

请注意，这个故事中的孩子都是未成年人，其中一些名字已被更改。

Also, if you're listening to this on the internet or on podcast, there is cursing that we have not beeped in what you're about to hear.

另外，如果您在互联网或播客上收听此内容，则会有人咒骂我们没有在您将要听到的内容中发出提示音。

If you prefer a beeped version of our program, you can get it at our website, thisamericanlife.org.

如果您喜欢我们程序的嘟嘟声版本，您可以在我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org 上获取。

OK, here's Chana.

好的，这是查娜。

I was popular at Lyons.

我在里昂很受欢迎。

It was a problem.

这是一个问题。

Kids would see me walking around with my microphone, international symbol that someone is about to be made famous.

孩子们会看到我带着麦克风走来走去，这是某人即将出名的国际象征。

And there'd be a scramble.

而且会有一场争夺。

Is this an interview?

这是采访吗？

Chana Joffe-Walt Some very quick process of natural selection would take place, a dozen kids would get pushed aside, and I'd be left standing with the champions.

Chana Joffe-Walt 将会发生一些非常快速的自然选择过程，十几个孩子会被推到一边，而我会和冠军站在一起。

So you guys are both what grade at Lyons?

那么你们都是里昂大学几年级？

Ninth.

第九。

Chana Joffe-Walt How do you like it?

查娜·乔夫-沃尔特 你觉得怎么样？

It's good.

很好。

Chana Joffe-Walt Are you going to say everything at the same time?

Chana Joffe-Walt 您要同时说出所有内容吗？

No. Stop!

不，停下来！

Chana Joffe-Walt You guys both started this year?

Chana Joffe-Walt 你们都是今年开始的吗？

Yeah.

是的。

Chana Joffe-Walt Having to move a conversation like this into an interview about restorative justice was a little bit of a bummer.

查纳·乔夫-沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt) 不得不将这样的对话转移到有关恢复性司法的采访中，这有点令人沮丧。

Kids at Lyons don't necessarily know that term, nor do they want to talk about it.

里昂的孩子们不一定知道这个词，他们也不想谈论它。

But when you ask them what their school is like, they have a lot to say about that, mostly what it feels like here.

但当你问他们的学校是什么样时，他们有很多话要说，主要是这里的感觉。

The teachers listen to you.

老师们听你的。

And we have a voice.

我们有发言权。

In my old middle school, they would just suspend us and whatever, call it a day.

在我以前的中学，他们只会让我们停学，不管怎样，就到此为止了。

But at Lyons, we talk about the problem and stuff like that.

但在里昂，我们会讨论问题之类的事情。

I had one little altercation, but me and the girl are friends now.

我发生了一点争吵，但我和那个女孩现在是朋友了。

Because we all talked about the situation.

因为我们都讨论了情况。

It was stupid.

这太愚蠢了。

After the fight, we all got in a circle, and we just talked about the situation.

打完后，我们大家围成一圈，只是聊了一下情况。

Circles.

界。

That's a big thing here.

这是一件大事。

They sit in circles after a fight.

打架后，他们坐成一圈。

Circles are where conflict is resolved, consequences are discussed, feelings are shared.

圈子是解决冲突、讨论后果、分享感受的地方。

The kids at Lyons get the message that talking is how you are successful.

里昂的孩子们得到的信息是，说话是成功之道。

A beefy ninth grader named Alex, with an Afro and dimples, walked me through, in detail, how he calms himself down when he gets frustrated in class.

一位名叫亚历克斯（Alex）的九年级学生，身材健壮，留着爆炸头，有酒窝，他向我详细介绍了他在课堂上感到沮丧时如何让自己平静下来。

And then he told me, "Lyons is what made me." I ask him what he means by that.

然后他告诉我，“里昂造就了我。”我问他这是什么意思。

I wouldn't think I would talk to you now how I'm talking to you.

我想我现在不会像现在这样和你说话。

What do you mean, the way that you're talking to me now?

你现在跟我说话的方式是什么意思？

Like so friendly, like I could keep on talking and talking.

就像如此友好，就像我可以一直说个不停。

If I would have never been at Lyons, I probably would have never been comfortable talking to you.

如果我从未去过里昂，我可能永远不会舒服地与你交谈。

You wouldn't even be sitting here with me.

你甚至不会和我一起坐在这里。

No. Chana Joffe-Walt You just would have walked away when I asked to talk to you.

不。Chana Joffe-Walt 当我要求和你说话时你就会走开。

I probably would have, yeah.

我可能会的，是的。

Chana Joffe-Walt Later, Alex told me, "I wouldn't have walked away nicely, either." His teachers confirmed this.

Chana Joffe-Walt 后来，亚历克斯告诉我，“我也不会很好地走开。”他的老师证实了这一点。

All this talking at Lyons can just look like total chaos.

里昂的所有这些谈话看起来完全是一片混乱。

There are kids in the hallway at Lyons all the time, there are fights, there's random screaming in between classes.

里昂的走廊里总是有孩子，有打架，课间有随机的尖叫声。

Rousseau's charter school had zero tolerance.

卢梭的特许学校零容忍。

Lyons has a tolerance for disruption that rivals a paintball arena.

里昂对破坏的容忍度堪比彩弹射击场。

One day, I found a teacher and dean trying to game out how to approach a student who told a female teacher to suck his dick.

有一天，我发现一位老师和院长正在想办法如何接近一名让女老师吸吮他的鸡巴的学生。

The kid said this in class and then walked out.

孩子在课堂上说了这句话，然后就走了出去。

I just feel so bad for him, that he can't control himself.

我只是为他感到难过，他无法控制自己。

Why is he yelling at me?

他为什么对我大喊大叫？

I've only ever been on his side.

我从来都只站在他一边。

What is up with that?

这是怎么回事？

It just makes me so sad.

这让我很伤心。

I don't really have it in me to get mad at him about it.

我真的没有勇气因为这件事对他生气。

Even though he's telling you, "Suck my dick?"

即使他告诉你：“吸我的鸡鸡？”

Well, that was just like a performance.

嗯，这就像一场表演。

I really didn't take it personally.

我真的没有把它当成是针对我个人的。

I mean, it was really just kind of like--

我的意思是，这真的有点像——

Like out of the probably about 100 times somebody's told me to suck their dick, I don't think they ever meant it personally toward me.

就像有人告诉我吸吮他们的鸡巴大概有 100 次一样，我不认为他们是针对我个人的。

Probably.

大概。

Chana Joffe-Walt These two teachers talk about what it means that the student said those words for an hour.

Chana Joffe-Walt 这两位老师花了一个小时谈论学生说这些话的含义。

They then speak with the student for another hour, the student and his mom, the student and other students, the student one-on-one again.

然后他们又与学生交谈一个小时，学生和他的妈妈，学生和其他学生，学生再次一对一。

It is a thorough investigation into the meaning and effect of the words "Suck my dick" on the kid, on the teacher, and on the class.

这是对“Suck my dick”这句话对孩子、对老师、对班级的意义和影响的彻底调查。

But that's kind of the idea, that kids are a long-term project, and over time, angry, hard kids become people who can explain themselves.

但这就是这样的想法，孩子是一个长期的项目，随着时间的推移，愤怒、顽固的孩子会成为能够解释自己的人。

At Lyons, they call this transformation "being Lyonized." The assistant principal was telling me about this, about how kids get Lyonized.

在里昂，他们将这种转变称为“被里昂化”。副校长正在告诉我这件事，关于孩子们是如何被里昂化的。

And a ninth grader named Nelson happened to be just sitting with us.

一位名叫尼尔森的九年级学生恰好和我们坐在一起。

So she said, "Like Nelson.

所以她说：“就像纳尔逊一样。

In sixth grade--"

六年级时——”

He was constantly talking, constantly throwing things, constantly getting kicked out of class, constantly.

他不断地说话，不断地扔东西，不断地被赶出课堂，不断地。

Nelson is not squirming or grimacing listening to this.

纳尔逊听着这句话，并没有扭动或做鬼脸。

The feeling is more of a loving parent teasing a grown child about what an awful teenager he was.

这种感觉更像是一位慈爱的父母嘲笑一个成年孩子，说他是一个多么糟糕的青少年。

But of course, what's so remarkable is Nelson is still a teenager.

但当然，值得注意的是尼尔森仍然是一个青少年。

And this is not his parent.

而且这不是他的父母。

It's his principal.

这是他的校长。

You didn't make it through a class, rarely, even when I had you in small group in sixth grade.

即使六年级时我把你分在小组里，你也很少能读完一堂课。

It was rough.

很艰难。

You remember.

你记得。

It's not like you don't remember.

你又不是不记得。

Not in that small group.

不在那个小团体里。

The small group, I wasn't bad.

小团体里，我还不错。

That's not true.

那不是真的。

That's not true.

那不是真的。

You have selective memory.

你有选择性记忆。

It's not true.

这不是真的。

Nelson tells me, "Just ask Espy what I was like in sixth grade." Espy is Dan Espinoza, a dean at the school.

尼尔森告诉我，“问问埃斯皮我六年级时是什么样子。”埃斯皮是丹·埃斯皮诺萨，该校院长。

Oh, god.

哦，上帝。

As a sixth grader, he was a very, very angry kid.

作为六年级学生，他是一个非常非常愤怒的孩子。

And even through most of his middle school, he'd be a kid that would just wander the halls for hours on end.

即使在中学的大部分时间里，他也是一个会连续几个小时在大厅里闲逛的孩子。

No one could talk to him.

没有人能和他说话。

No one could stop him-- don't touch me, get off me.

没有人能阻止他——别碰我，从我身上下来。

He would be like, "These f-in' deans.

他会说，“这些该死的院长。

He would always say that.

他总是会这么说。

One day, a girl said something nasty to Nelson, and he started screaming at her and then chasing her out of the classroom.

有一天，一个女孩对尼尔森说了一些难听的话，尼尔森开始对她尖叫，然后把她赶出了教室。

Espy stood by the door so Nelson couldn't run after her.

埃斯皮站在门口，这样尼尔森就无法追赶她。

And he looked at me, and he was like, "Dan, I swear to god, I'm about to punch you in the groin right now"-- he said that to me-- "if you don't let go of the door." So I put my foot in the door so that he couldn't open it.

他看着我，说道，“丹，我向上帝发誓，我现在就要打你的腹股沟”——他对我这么说——“如果你不放开门。”于是我把脚放在门上，不让他开门。

And he knew it, and he stopped it at my foot, and then he just pulled harder.

他知道这一点，他把它停在我脚边，然后他用力拉。

And I was--

而我当时——

What happened?

发生了什么事？

Dan Espinoza It hit me right in the face.

丹·埃斯皮诺萨 这正中我的脸。

When I asked him how hard, Espy said, "It didn't break my jaw or anything." So that was sixth grade.

当我问他有多难时，埃斯皮说：“它没有打破我的下巴或任何东西。”那是六年级。

Nelson is in ninth grade now, Lyonized.

尼尔森现在上九年级，里昂化。

I mean, I could tell Nelson, "Nelson, I love you." He'll be like, "I love you, too." And it's just a very good--

我的意思是，我可以告诉尼尔森，“尼尔森，我爱你。”他会说：“我也爱你。”这只是一个非常好的——

Oh, really?

哦，真的吗？

Dan Espinoza Yeah.

丹·埃斯皮诺萨 是的。

It's a very positive relationship at this point.

目前这是一种非常积极的关系。

I really don't worry about Nelson.

我真的不担心纳尔逊。

I don't worry.

我不担心。

I think he's going to be OK.

我想他会没事的。

Schools, like any institution, I guess, tend to attract believers, some more fervent than others.

我想，像任何机构一样，学校往往会吸引信徒，其中一些人比其他人更狂热。

But Lyons is a building of believers.

但里昂是一座信徒的建筑。

This is the way to do things, and it's the right way.

这就是做事的方法，也是正确的方法。

Which is why I want to tell you about what happened on May 7 last spring, something that threatened to reverse years of progress with Nelson and had lots of teachers in the school questioning what they're doing here.

这就是为什么我想告诉你们去年春天 5 月 7 日发生的事情，这件事有可能扭转尼尔森多年来取得的进步，并且学校里的很多老师都质疑他们在这里所做的事情。

On May 7, two teachers named Chelsea and Jesse took a group of ninth graders on a field trip.

5月7日，两位名叫切尔西和杰西的老师带着一群九年级学生进行了实地考察。

It was an art class.

那是一堂美术课。

They were going to Manhattan to look at public art.

他们要去曼哈顿参观公共艺术。

And even on the walk to the train, kids were noticing public artwork.

即使在步行去火车站的路上，孩子们也会注意到公共艺术品。

It was a beautiful day.

这是美好的一天。

We got on the train.

我们上了火车。

Everything was pleasant and calm.

一切都是愉快而平静的。

Chelsea's at one door.

切尔西就在门口。

I'm at the other.

我在另一个。

Kids are standing in the aisle.

孩子们站在过道上。

Most of the seats were taken when we got on.

我们上车后大部分座位都被占了。

I remember standing with a group of kids around me.

我记得周围有一群孩子站着。

And we were all just kind of chatting, who they're dating or just talking about life.

我们只是聊天，他们在约会谁，或者只是谈论生活。

Everything seemed so calm.

一切都显得那么平静。

I think we're on the train for two stops, and the train doors open.

我想我们已经坐了两站火车了，车门打开了。

And someone comes from behind Nelson.

有人从纳尔逊后面过来。

So Nelson is standing at the middle pole of the train.

所以纳尔逊站在火车的中间杆上。

And someone pushes past him, kind of shoulders him out of the way, and steps off the train.

有人推开他，用肩膀把他推开，然后下了火车。

And Nelson responds by saying, "Say excuse me." And the man now, who's outside of the train, turns around and starts cursing at Nelson.

尼尔森回应道：“请原谅。”现在，在火车外面的那个人转过身来，开始咒骂纳尔逊。

I don't remember exactly what he said, something like, who the fuck are you, or, shut the fuck up, or something very aggressive, very unnecessary.

我不记得他具体说了什么，比如，你他妈的是谁，或者，他妈的闭嘴，或者非常咄咄逼人、非常不必要的话。

Nelson didn't say it in a nice way.

尼尔森说得不太好听。

He was just like, "Say excuse me." Definitely not within his place to be speaking to an older man that way, but still, not horrible.

他只是说，“对不起。”他绝对不适合以这种方式与年长的男人说话，但仍然不可怕。

Chelsea says the man was big, big enough that she wouldn't have messed with him and big enough that, Nelson says, when he bumped into him, it was a real shove.

切尔西说这个男人很大，足够大，她不会惹恼他，尼尔森说，当他撞到他时，那是一个真正的推力。

It's rude people on the train.

火车上的人很粗鲁。

They'll just bump into you without saying excuse me or sorry.

他们只会撞到你，不会说对不起或抱歉。

I told him, "Say excuse me.

我告诉他：“请原谅。

You could have said excuse me."

你可以说对不起。”

Said, "Fuck you." I said, "Fuck you, too."

说：“去你妈的。”我说：“也去你妈的。”

There are a lot of versions of what happened next.

接下来发生的事情有很多版本。

Some students say the guy reached to grab Nelson, to hit him.

一些学生说，那家伙伸手抓住尼尔森，想打他。

Some of them say the guy just stepped forward.

他们中的一些人说那家伙只是向前迈出了一步。

Teachers and students, everyone, says, at that point, the kids, a large group of them, moved in on the man.

老师和学生们都说，就在那时，一大群孩子们搬到了这个男人身边。

It was kind of like slow motion.

这有点像慢动作。

And I could see a volcano erupting.

我可以看到一座火山正在喷发。

And I just immediately put my arms across the door, because he was outside, and they were inside.

我立即将双臂放在门上，因为他在外面，而他们在里面。

And I wanted to keep them inside, and I wanted to keep him outside.

我想让他们留在里面，我想把他留在外面。

The doors were going to close soon.

门很快就要关上了。

They're just yelling.

他们只是大喊大叫。

They can yell, and then we'll move on.

他们可以大喊大叫，然后我们就继续前进。

And Chelsea put her arms across the doors to keep the kids behind her inside the train.

切尔西用双臂隔在车门上，让孩子们留在她身后的火车里。

But for some reason, the doors did not close.

但由于某种原因，门没有关上。

The train did not move.

火车没有动。

It definitely escalated very quickly.

它确实升级得非常快。

They were trying to hit him over me.

他们试图从我身上打他。

They threw a bottle.

他们扔了一个瓶子。

Somebody spit.

有人吐口水。

I mean, it was really gross.

我的意思是，这真的很糟糕。

Jesse, meanwhile, the other teacher, was at the other end of the train car.

与此同时，另一位老师杰西则在火车车厢的另一端。

So he couldn't see what was going on.

所以他看不到发生了什么。

But he stepped out onto the platform, and he sees this man there, screaming.

但他走到站台上，看到这个男人在那里尖叫。

And Chelsea is between him and the students.

而切尔西则处于他和学生之间。

It appeared that he was reaching over, trying to grab a student.

看来他正伸手去抓一名学生。

And he's saying something like, I want this fucking kid, or, give me this fucking kid, something like that.

他说的是，我想要这个该死的孩子，或者，给我这个该死的孩子，类似的话。

So I was really concerned that he was mentally unstable.

所以我真的很担心他精神不稳定。

And so I ran.

于是我就跑了。

I actually sort of-- so I slipped myself between him and Chelsea.

事实上，我有点——所以我把自己塞到了他和切尔西之间。

I was facing him.

我正对着他。

And so I actually saw him reach into his pocket.

所以我实际上看到他把手伸进口袋。

And I got really-- I was like, oh, my god.

我真的——我当时想，哦，天啊。

Does this guy have some sort of weapon?

这家伙有什么武器吗？

I actually put my hands on his chest to push him away.

我实际上把手放在他的胸口上，想把他推开。

And right when I did that, we locked eyes, and he said, "I'm a cop.

就在我这么做的时候，我们四目相对，他说：“我是一名警察。

I'm a cop.

我是一名警察。

I'm a cop."

我是一名警察。”

When I asked the kids about this moment later, a bunch of them told me the whole thing was so confusing until right then.

当我后来向孩子们询问这一刻时，他们中的一些人告诉我，直到那时整件事都非常令人困惑。

The whole time, they were wondering, what's this random guy doing starting with us?

一直以来，他们都在想，这个随机的家伙和我们一起在做什么？

And then, when they found out he's a cop, it was like, oh, that's why he's acting like that.

然后，当他们发现他是一名警察时，就好像，哦，这就是他这么做的原因。

But Jesse and Chelsea both said this is where they got confused.

但杰西和切尔西都表示，这就是他们感到困惑的地方。

The man made more sense to them as a crazy guy than as an officer, a plainclothes officer, who was now standing on a subway platform with his badge saying he got hit, and he wanted everyone off the train.

对他们来说，这个男人是一个疯子，而不是一个警察，一个便衣警察，他现在站在地铁站台上，他的徽章上写着他被击中了，他希望每个人都下车。

Yeah, he's like, give me this kid, I want that one, give me the tall one, the short one, who were huddled on the platform.

是的，他就像，给我这个孩子，我想要那个，给我高的，矮的，他们挤在站台上。

He's picking-- he had one student and was asking for more.

他正在挑选——他有一名学生，并且要求更多。

He was very, very, very angry.

他非常非常非常生气。

You know when someone's so angry that spit is coming out of their mouth?

你知道当一个人生气到口吐白沫的时候吗？

Yeah.

是的。

When he was talking to us and talking to the kids, he was filled with fury.

当他和我们说话，和孩子们说话时，他充满了愤怒。

Jesse says the cop pulled aside Nelson, Alex-- that kid who told me Lyons made him capable of talking to me-- and a boy named Kamani.

杰西说，警察把纳尔逊、亚历克斯——那个告诉我莱昂斯让他能够和我说话的孩子——和一个名叫卡马尼的男孩拉到了一边。

Jesse tried to stay close to the group.

杰西试图与这群人保持密切联系。

I'm saying, "Wait, why do you want them?" And at some point in there, I made it clear.

我说：“等等，你为什么想要它们？”在某个时刻，我说得很清楚。

I said, "I'm their teacher.

我说：“我是他们的老师。

They're with me on a class trip.

他们和我一起参加班级旅行。

We need to talk about this."

我们需要谈谈这个。”

And he's saying, "I'm going to get six more officers here in a second." And he really did.

他说：“我马上就会再派六名警官过来。”他确实做到了。

He called, and there were a bunch more plainclothes officers there really quickly.

他打电话过去，很快又来了一群便衣警察。

Jesse pressed on.

杰西继续追问。

And the more he recounted this to me, I realized, oh, he's trying to do restorative justice with the guy.

他向我讲述的越多，我意识到，哦，他正试图对这个人实行恢复性正义。

He was in teacher mode.

他处于教师模式。

He's got 25 of his students standing before him.

他面前站着 25 名学生。

So without thinking, he does what he knows how to do.

所以他不假思索，就做他知道该怎么做的事。

You know, let's talk about this.

你知道吗，我们来谈谈这个吧。

There must be a way we can work this out.

我们一定有办法解决这个问题。

You don't have to arrest them.

你不必逮捕他们。

I have a whole class here.

我这里有一整堂课。

And you thought, I just need to explain to him what's going on.

你想，我只需要向他解释发生了什么事。

Yeah, if I could explain to him, we're on a class trip, and whatever happened must have been some big misunderstanding.

是的，如果我能向他解释的话，我们正在班级旅行，发生的一切一定是一些天大的误会。

Maybe he didn't know you were a cop.

也许他不知道你是警察。

Maybe you shouldn't have cursed at him right away.

也许你不应该立刻咒骂他。

Maybe he shouldn't have said, "Say excuse me," with that particular tone.

也许他不应该用那种特殊的语气说“对不起”。

And if I can help you two see that right now, then everything can be OK.

如果我现在能帮助你们两个明白这一点，那么一切都会好起来的。

And he wasn't trying to hear any of that.

他并不想听这些。

What was he saying?

他说什么？

Jesse He actually then threatened me and said that, if I don't get away, that he was going to arrest me.

何杰西随后威胁我说，如果我不逃脱，他就会逮捕我。

Restorative justice, meet plain old criminal justice.

恢复性司法，满足普通的老式刑事司法。

The cop was not about to sit in a circle.

警察不打算围坐成一圈。

He was going to make some arrests.

他打算逮捕一些人。

And the kids geared into action.

孩子们也做好了行动的准备。

They shot video, started calling mothers and aunts and girlfriends.

他们拍摄视频，开始给母亲、阿姨和女朋友打电话。

Someone made sure to get their backpacks.

有人确保拿到他们的背包。

Nelson's classmate Brianna got Nelson's phone out of his pocket while he was handcuffed.

纳尔逊被戴上手铐时，他的同学布丽安娜从口袋里掏出了他的手机。

I asked Brianna how she knew to do that when someone was arrested.

我问布丽安娜，当有人被捕时，她怎么知道要这么做。

She was quiet for a couple seconds, like she was trying to figure out what exactly I meant by that question.

她沉默了几秒钟，好像在试图弄清楚我这个问题到底是什么意思。

And then her face cleared up, and she said, oh, I live here.

然后她的脸色晴朗起来，她说，哦，我住在这里。

I live in Brooklyn.

我住在布鲁克林。

I immediately got the sense that seeing their friends in handcuffs was nothing new to them at all.

我立即意识到，看到朋友戴着手铐对他们来说一点也不新鲜。

And that's a really scary thought.

这是一个非常可怕的想法。

And it's something that I know, but to see it in that moment where it's so clear no one is shocked.

这是我知道的事情，但在如此清晰的那一刻看到它，没有人感到震惊。

Yeah.

是的。

People are angry, but no one is surprised.

人们很愤怒，但没有人感到惊讶。

And seeing how normal it is for some kids is, yeah, that's scary.

看到这对一些孩子来说是多么正常，是的，这很可怕。

The cop arrested Nelson and Kamani.

警察逮捕了纳尔逊和卡马尼。

The rest of the kids watched.

其余的孩子都在旁边看着。

Nelson was charged with disorderly conduct.

尼尔森被指控行为不检。

Kamani was charged with a felony for assaulting an officer.

卡马尼因袭警而被指控犯有重罪。

The NYPD declined multiple requests for an interview or any kind of response.

纽约警察局多次拒绝采访或任何形式的回应请求。

And the officer-- his name is Guillermo Lozano-- would not talk to me.

那位军官——他的名字叫吉列尔莫·洛萨诺——不肯跟我说话。

He also didn't show up for Nelson's court dates.

他也没有出席尼尔森的法庭约会。

He did provide the courts with a written statement that says, after a heated verbal exchange with Nelson, the officer identified himself.

他确实向法庭提供了一份书面声明，称在与尼尔森激烈的口头交流后，该警官表明了自己的身份。

Kamani, the statement says, then punched him in the right eye and yelled, "Fuck that."

声明称，卡马尼随后一拳打在他的右眼上，并大喊：“操他妈的。”

Kamani denies this.

卡马尼否认这一点。

But in court, he took a plea deal.

但在法庭上，他接受了认罪协议。

All of the witnesses I spoke with say the cop did not identify himself until after the scuffle.

我采访过的所有目击者都表示，警察直到扭打之后才表明自己的身份。

Two people said, at that point, he did appear to have a mark on his face.

有两个人说，当时他的脸上确实出现了一个记号。

Nelson and Kamani were booked and spent the night in jail.

纳尔逊和卡马尼被登记并在监狱里过夜。

They were both 16.

他们当时都是 16 岁。

Everybody's in there for different stuff.

每个人都在那里做不同的事情。

So at that point, you just feel like you've just got to watch over yourself, because there's dangerous people in there.

所以在那一点上，你只是觉得你必须小心自己，因为那里有危险的人。

You've just got to be cool.

你必须保持冷静。

Grownups.

大人。

To me, they was a little crazy, because they're just doing random shit and crazy stuff.

对我来说，他们有点疯狂，因为他们只是做一些随机的事情和疯狂的事情。

Like what?

比如什么？

Nelson Crazy stuff, like grown people getting caught with guns and stuff.

纳尔逊 疯狂的事情，比如成年人因持有枪支之类的东西而被抓。

It's just weird, because you're just looking at them like, damn.

这很奇怪，因为你只是看着他们，该死的。

I didn't sleep.

我没有睡觉。

Yeah, it seems like it'd be hard to sleep.

是啊，看来是很难入睡了。

I was up the whole night.

我整个晚上都没睡。

Chana Joffe-Walt Did you just sit up the whole night?

Chana Joffe-Walt 你整晚都没睡吗？

I had my hoodie over my head, just thinking.

我把连帽衫罩在头上，只是在思考。

Were you scared?

你害怕吗？

Nelson Not really.

纳尔逊 事实并非如此。

I kind of was, but I wasn't.

我有点是，但我不是。

I asked Nelson what he was thinking about all night.

我问纳尔逊他整晚都在想什么。

If he was a cop, why'd he tell me fuck you?

如果他是警察，他为什么要告诉我操你？

Because he could have said something else if he's that smart enough to be a cop.

因为如果他足够聪明，可以当警察的话，他本可以说点别的。

Like what?

比如什么？

Nelson I don't know.

纳尔逊我不知道。

Like, sorry, my fault.

就像，对不起，我的错。

It just made no sense.

这毫无意义。

He's a grown-ass man, and I'm a little kid.

他是个大人了，而我还是个小孩子。

He should have just kept going.

他应该继续前进。

When Nelson got out the next morning, he came straight to school.

第二天早上，尼尔森一出来就直接来到了学校。

He said he wanted to let his teachers know he was OK.

他说他想让老师知道他没事。

The principal of Lyons, Taeko Onishi, sends out a weekly email to staff.

里昂校长大西妙子 (Taeko Onishi) 每周向员工发送一封电子邮件。

And that week, it described the arrests and said, "There's an impending court case, so I won't get into too much detail.

那周，它描述了逮捕情况，并表示：“法庭案件即将审理，所以我不会透露太多细节。

But it was one of those cases of a cop undercover, responding completely inappropriately to our students, our students then responding inappropriately back.

但这是警察卧底的案例之一，他对我们的学生做出了完全不恰当的反应，然后我们的学生也做出了不恰当的回应。

Clearly, the cop was in the wrong.

显然，警察的做法是错误的。

But equally clearly, many of our students really struggle to make the best of choices when faced with an emotionally charged situation."

但同样明显的是，我们的许多学生在面对情绪激动的情况时确实很难做出最好的选择。”

Of course, Lyons staff discussed the incident exhaustively.

当然，里昂的工作人员详尽地讨论了这一事件。

I was sick.

我病了。

It's like your worst nightmare.

这就像你最糟糕的噩梦。

Assaulting an officer sounds so bad.

袭击军官听起来很糟糕。

Espy, the dean who tells Nelson he loves him, could not stop imagining Nelson in jail.

告诉尼尔森他爱他的院长埃斯皮无法停止想象尼尔森入狱的情景。

He imagined Nelson getting his prints taken, standing before a judge, seeing himself as a criminal.

他想象纳尔逊被拍下指纹，站在法官面前，将自己视为罪犯。

And Espy played out the alternate future he could now see for Nelson.

埃斯皮为尼尔森描绘了他现在可以看到的另一种未来。

Basically, he had the same moment Tunette had with JJ, seeing a path laid out before him, seeing him targeted by strangers who don't see him for who he is.

基本上，他和 Tunette 和 JJ 经历了同样的时刻，看到他面前铺着一条路，看到他被那些不认识他的陌生人瞄准。

It made Espy furious.

这让埃斯皮勃然大怒。

But other teachers at Lyons took the news of the arrests differently.

但里昂的其他老师对逮捕的消息有不同的看法。

Kamani's English teacher, Cindy Black, said she kept thinking about all the times Kamani acted out in her class, blew up, threw books on the floor.

卡玛尼的英语老师辛迪·布莱克(Cindy Black)说，她一直在回想起卡玛尼在课堂上的各种行为，比如发脾气、把书扔到地板上。

And she kept wondering, is what we're doing working for the kids?

她一直在想，我们所做的事情是为了孩子们吗？

And so when I first heard about what had happened, my immediate reaction was, oh, no. It's our fault.

所以当我第一次听说发生了什么事时，我的第一反应是，哦，不。这是我们的错。

We've allowed him to get away with too much.

我们已经让他逃脱了太多的惩罚。

We should have been suspending him more.

我们应该让他停赛更多。

We should have been more black and white.

我们应该更加黑白分明。

We shouldn't have turned away when he did these outrageous things.

当他做出这些令人发指的事情时，我们不应该拒绝。

We should have held him more accountable.

我们应该让他承担更多责任。

And we didn't do any of that stuff.

我们没有做任何那样的事情。

And so it's our fault he's done something now.

所以他现在做了一些事情都是我们的错。

He spent the night in jail.

他在监狱里度过了一夜。

It's because of us.

这是因为我们。

It's because of me.

这是因为我。

Here's Chelsea.

这里是切尔西。

Chelsea Because maybe if we were a different kind of school, they would not have acted that way on a trip.

切尔西 因为也许如果我们是一所不同类型的学校，他们就不会在旅行中这样做。

I don't know if kids would have felt the freedom to act that way.

我不知道孩子们是否会感受到这样做的自由。

Freedom to say "excuse me" to a stranger in a rude tone, to throw stuff, and to talk back.

可以自由地以粗鲁的语气对陌生人说“对不起”、扔东西、顶嘴。

It seemed like the cop saw them as rowdy or threatening.

警察似乎认为他们吵闹或具有威胁性。

What if they'd been more like Rousseau's students, quiet and in uniforms, doing homework?

如果他们更像卢梭的学生，安静地穿着制服做作业怎么办？

Maybe this whole thing could've been avoided.

也许这整件事本来是可以避免的。

But Espy reminded everyone, wait, the cop said, "Fuck you." Kamani only got involved when the cop started with Nelson.

但埃斯皮提醒大家，等等，警察说，“操你妈的。”当警察向尼尔森发起进攻时，卡马尼才介入。

We're going to tell them he should have held back?

我们要告诉他们他应该忍住吗？

Are you kidding me?

你在开玩笑吧？

When his friend is getting pulled by a plainclothed guy?

当他的朋友被便衣拉扯的时候？

How do you-- I just don't-- because I know, if I was there, I would be arrested, because if someone's grabbing Nelson and it's just a guy, I'm going to-- so I would have been arrested.

你怎么办——我只是不知道——因为我知道，如果我在那里，我就会被逮捕，因为如果有人抓住尼尔森，而那只是一个人，我就会——所以我就会被逮捕。

And this guy clearly had a-- everybody around said Nelson said, "You could say excuse me." That's the first thing Nelson said, when the first thing the guy says is, "Fuck you." And this is a kid who we're trying to teach, be patient, don't confront somebody.

这家伙显然有一个——周围的每个人都说纳尔逊说，“你可以说对不起。”这是尼尔森说的第一句话，而那家伙说的第一句话是“操你。”我们正在努力教导这个孩子，要有耐心，不要与人对抗。

And I thought he did a pretty good job.

我认为他做得很好。

But once you say, "Fuck you," to Nelson, the restorative justice doesn't work beyond that point.

但一旦你对尼尔森说“操你”，恢复性司法就不再起作用了。

Still, restorative justice is what the school does.

尽管如此，恢复性司法仍然是学校的职责。

So after Jesse and Chelsea got the rest of the class back to school, they set them down in a circle.

因此，在杰西和切尔西让班上的其他人回到学校后，他们让他们围成一圈。

Here's Alex.

这是亚历克斯。

Just talking about what happened at that day and what we could have did to stop it.

只是谈论那天发生的事情以及我们可以采取哪些措施来阻止它。

What could you guys have done to stop it?

你们可以做什么来阻止它？

I don't know.

我不知道。

We can't stop something like that.

我们无法阻止这样的事情。

The police officer just took them for no reason.

警察无缘无故地把他们带走了。

We can't stop-- we can't change his mind as Jesse tried to change his mind.

我们无法阻止——我们无法改变他的想法，就像杰西试图改变他的想法一样。

He didn't want to change his mind.

他不想改变主意。

So your circle was about what you could do to stop it, but you felt like there was nothing that you could do to stop it?

所以你的圈子是关于你可以做什么来阻止它，但你觉得你无能为力来阻止它？

Yeah.

是的。

I didn't really feel like telling nobody.

我真的不想告诉任何人。

So I didn't really feel like talking about it.

所以我真的不想谈论它。

In other words, nothing that we could do, nothing you teachers can do, would have stopped that.

换句话说，我们无能为力，你们老师也无能为力，无法阻止这种情况发生。

I heard this from a lot of kids, the feeling that your funky little system is cool when we're in school and all, but don't try and take it and apply it to our world.

我从很多孩子那里听到了这样的说法，感觉当我们在学校时，你的时髦小系统很酷，但不要尝试将它应用到我们的世界。

You're in over your head.

你已经不知所措了。

If talking in circles are not the way the world does things, then Lyons is failing to prepare kids for the world they live in.

如果绕圈子不是这个世界做事的方式，那么里昂就未能让孩子们为他们所生活的世界做好准备。

And if they're not preparing kids for the world they live in, they're not doing their job, right?

如果他们没有让孩子们为他们所生活的世界做好准备，他们就没有做好自己的工作，对吧？

Isn't that their job?

这不是他们的工作吗？

Is that their job?

这是他们的工作吗？

This is the question I keep coming back to, thinking about all these stories.

这是我在思考所有这些故事时不断回想起的问题。

It's the same question Rousseau, at his no-excuses charter school, is asking.

这也是卢梭在他的无借口特许学校里提出的同样的问题。

What is the point of punishment in school?

学校里的惩罚有什么意义？

Is it to teach self-control?

是为了教自控力吗？

To get kids to be quiet so learning can happen?

让孩子们安静下来以便学习？

To prepare children to function as grownups in the world?

让孩子做好在世界上像成年人一样的准备？

To teach them how to avoid being arrested?

教他们如何避免被捕？

If you want to know, is this working for the kids, you have to know what you're going for, right?

如果你想知道这对孩子们有用，你就必须知道你要做什么，对吧？

Every year, teachers have 30 or 100 students.

每年，老师有30或100名学生。

A lot of those kids will be disciplined.

很多孩子都会受到纪律处分。

And getting it wrong, even once, can be haunting.

即使犯错一次，也会令人难以忘怀。

For example, remember Christopher, the kid who ran around the classroom with his teacher's stapler and Post-It notes coming out of his pockets everywhere?

例如，还记得克里斯托弗吗？那个孩子在教室里跑来跑去，手里拿着老师的订书机，口袋里到处都是便利贴。

I tried to track Christopher down.

我试图追踪克里斯托弗。

I thought it might be interesting to hear what he remembered of the stapler, if he remembered his teacher.

我想如果他还记得他的老师的话，听听他对订书机的记忆可能会很有趣。

And I found him, just last month in a Manhattan courthouse.

就在上个月，我在曼哈顿法院找到了他。

He was being sentenced to six months at Rikers Island for burglary.

他因入室盗窃被判在赖克斯岛服刑六个月。

Christopher's seventh-grade teacher did not cause that.

这并不是克里斯托弗七年级老师造成的。

But when I told Ms. Furr, she got really quiet, ended our call kind of abruptly, and then wrote me this.

但当我告诉弗尔女士时，她变得非常安静，突然结束了我们的通话，然后给我写了这封信。

"I was so heartbroken to hear the news about Christopher's recent trouble.

“听到克里斯托弗最近遇到麻烦的消息，我非常伤心。

All the times I talked about behavior with him, I wish I would have talked about how quick that he was at math and how much I liked to hear him read out loud.

每次我和他谈论行为时，我都希望能谈论他的数学速度有多快，以及我多么喜欢听他大声朗读。

If you do speak to him, please tell him I'm glad to help in any way possible."

如果你确实和他说话，请告诉他我很乐意以任何可能的方式提供帮助。”

Katie Furr has no idea if those things would have made any difference, and I don't either.

凯蒂·福尔（Katie Furr）不知道这些事情是否会产生任何影响，我也不知道。

And I wasn't able to reach the one person who might have something to say about that, because he has been removed from the community, something he's gone through many times before, starting at least as early as seventh grade.

我无法联系到一位可能对此有话要说的人，因为他已被从社区中除名，这种事情他以前已经经历过很多次，至少从七年级就开始了。

Chana Joffe-Walt is one of the producers of our show.

查纳·乔夫·沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt) 是我们节目的制片人之一。

Our program today was produced by Nancy Updike with help from Ben Calhoun, Sean Cole, Stephanie Foo, Chana Joffe-Walt, Sarah Koenig, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Brian Reed, Robyn Semien, and Alissa Shipp.

我们今天的节目由 Nancy Updike 制作，并得到 Ben Calhoun、Sean Cole、Stephanie Foo、Chana Joffe-Walt、Sarah Koenig、Miki Meek、Jonathan Menjivar、Brian Reed、Robyn Semien 和 Alissa Shipp 的帮助。

Our senior producer's Julie Snyder.

我们的高级制片人朱莉·斯奈德。

Editing help today from Paul Tough, production help from JP Dukes.

今天，Paul Tough 提供编辑帮助，JP Dukes 提供制作帮助。

Seth Lind is our operations director.

塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的运营总监。

Emily Condon's our production manager.

艾米丽·康登是我们的生产经理。

Elise Bergerson's our office manager.

埃莉斯·伯格森是我们的办公室经理。

Adrianne Mathiowetz runs our website.

阿德琳娜·马修韦茨 (Adrianne Mathiowetz) 负责运营我们的网站。

Research help today from Christopher Swetala and Michelle Harris.

Christopher Swetala 和 Michelle Harris 今天提供了研究帮助。

Music help from Damien Graef.

达米安·格雷夫 (Damien Graef) 的音乐帮助。

Special thanks to Ta-Nehisi Coates, Joel Lovell, Rebecca Decola, Robert Murphey, Nava EtShalom, Judge Elijah Williams, Jamaal Bowman, Liz Fletcher, Judith Kafka, Ronald Butchart, Kelly King, Kathy Brody, Lamar Shambley, Kathy Cohen, James Settle, Tom Ryder, Matt Lunt, Janet Bass at the American Federation of Teachers, Amanda Pinto at the Achievement First Network, and the entire staff of Lyons Community School.

特别感谢 Ta-Nehisi Coates、Joel Lovell、Rebecca Decola、Robert Murphey、Nava EtShalom、Judge Elijah Williams、Jamaal Bowman、Liz Fletcher、Judith Kafka、Ronald Butchart、Kelly King、Kathy Brody、Lamar Shambley、Kathy Cohen、James Settle、Tom Ryder、Matt Lunt、Janet Bass（美国教师联合会）、Amanda Pinto（美国教师联合会）成就第一网络，以及里昂社区学校的全体员工。

[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.

[致谢]《This American Life》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。

Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.

一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。

You know, every day he spent as general manager of WBEZ included that very special and memorable moment when he would stand in the hallway and yell--

要知道，他担任 WBEZ 总经理的每一天，都有一个非常特别和难忘的时刻，那就是他站在走廊里大喊——

I run this mother.

我经营这个母亲。

Ira Glass I'm Ira Glass.

艾拉·格拉斯 我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Back next week with more stories of This American Life.

下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。