535: Origin Story - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #535 | March 7, 2025 535: Origin Story Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 535 集 | 2025 年 3 月 7 日 535：起源故事 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass Pino Audia teaches in the business school at Dartmouth, and he researches something that we took up in an episode of our show a couple weeks ago.
序言：序言 Ira Glass Pino Audia 在达特茅斯商学院任教，他研究了我们几周前在节目的一集中讨论的一些内容。
He researches the question, how do entrepreneurs get created?
他研究的问题是，企业家是如何诞生的？
And at some point, he noticed that his students and many of his colleagues actually have an opinion about this.
在某个时候，他注意到他的学生和许多同事实际上对此有看法。
They believe entrepreneurs make themselves.
他们相信企业家创造自己。
You know, you head off on your own, you write a business plan, you start in your own garage.
你知道，你自己出发，写一份商业计划，从你自己的车库开始。
And the garage, by the way, is not a metaphorical garage.
顺便说一下，车库并不是一个隐喻的车库。
It is a garage-- a literal garage.
这是一个车库——真正的车库。
Hewlett-Packard started in a garage.
惠普公司是从一个车库起步的。
Apple Computer had a garage.
苹果电脑有一个车库。
Disney, the Mattel toy company, the Wham-O toy company.
迪士尼、美泰玩具公司、Wham-O 玩具公司。
It is about big dreams and humble beginnings, and success in the face of adversity and doubters.
它讲述的是远大的梦想和卑微的开始，以及面对逆境和怀疑者时的成功。
And also the idea that, regardless of who you are, regardless of how humble your beginnings are, you can turn something into an immense success story if you work hard.
还有一个想法是，无论你是谁，无论你的出身多么卑微，如果你努力工作，你都可以将某些事情变成一个巨大的成功故事。
And that was the point in time in which I got interested in the story of the garage as a myth.
就在那时，我对车库这个神话故事产生了兴趣。
A garage is a place of possibilities.
车库是一个充满可能性的地方。
It's a place where things can get inventive, and a place where entrepreneurs begin.
这是一个可以发挥创造力的地方，也是一个企业家开始创业的地方。
This is from a promotional video that Hewlett Packard put together after it spent millions to buy and restore the original garage where its two founders started what is now the largest technology firm in the world.
这是惠普花费数百万美元购买并修复原来的车库后制作的宣传视频，惠普的两位创始人在那里创办了现在世界上最大的科技公司。
In 1938, in a garage in Palo Alto, California, Bill Hewlett and Dave Packard set to work to start a new company.
1938 年，在加利福尼亚州帕洛阿尔托的一个车库里，比尔·休利特 (Bill Hewlett) 和戴夫·帕卡德 (Dave Packard) 开始着手创办一家新公司。
They had a few hand-operated punches, a used Sears Roebuck drill press that had just made the trip west in the back of one of their cars, and they had a rented flat with a garage.
他们有一些手动冲床，一台二手西尔斯罗巴克钻床，刚刚在他们的一辆车后面向西行驶，他们还租了一套带车库的公寓。
Professor Audia doesn't argue with any of this, but he says that when you ask actual entrepreneurs-- and this is true in survey after survey-- you find that most of them began not by going off into their garage, but by working for somebody else, making contacts, learning the business.
奥迪亚教授并不反对这些观点，但他说，当你询问真正的企业家时——在一次又一次的调查中确实如此——你会发现他们中的大多数人并不是从进入车库开始的，而是通过为别人工作、建立联系、学习业务开始的。
So this is a very robust finding, which tells us that, actually, if you want to become an entrepreneur, the obvious thing to do is to first go get a job in an industry you're interested in and learn.
所以这是一个非常有力的发现，它告诉我们，实际上，如果你想成为一名企业家，显而易见的事情就是首先去你感兴趣的行业找到一份工作并学习。
And then eventually, later, try to create a company.
然后最终，后来，尝试创建一家公司。
Even Bill Hewlett and Dave Packard weren't exactly outsiders.
就连比尔·休利特 (Bill Hewlett) 和戴夫·帕卡德 (Dave Packard) 也不完全是局外人。
They studied electrical engineering at MIT and at Stanford.
他们在麻省理工学院和斯坦福大学学习电气工程。
Packard had worked at General Electric.
帕卡德曾在通用电气工作。
A former professor of theirs from Stanford gave them leads and hooked them up, for example, with a firm called Litton Engineering, who let them use equipment that they didn't own themselves yet.
他们的一位斯坦福大学前教授为他们提供了线索，并将他们与一家名为 Litton Engineering 的公司联系起来，该公司让他们使用他们还不拥有的设备。
Just as, decades later, the founders of Apple Computer, 21-year-old Steve Jobs was already working at Atari, and 25-year-old Steve Wozniak was at Hewlett Packard when they started Apple in Jobs' garage.
正如几十年后，苹果电脑的创始人们在乔布斯的车库里创办苹果公司时，21 岁的史蒂夫·乔布斯 (Steve Jobs) 已经在雅达利 (Atari) 工作，25 岁的史蒂夫·沃兹尼亚克 (Steve Wozniak) 在惠普 (Hewlett Packard) 工作。
And, for example, in the case of Steve Jobs, he benefited greatly from the support that he got from the Atari people, because they introduced him to investors.
例如，就史蒂夫·乔布斯而言，他从雅达利员工的支持中受益匪浅，因为他们将他介绍给了投资者。
Pino Audia has tried to find mentions of garage entrepreneurs or anything like it in other countries, and didn't come up with much.
皮诺·奥迪亚（Pino Audia）试图在其他国家寻找车库企业家或类似事物的提及，但没有找到太多线索。
He says it seems to be a very American idea, very close to other American ideas about opportunity for everybody.
他说，这似乎是一个非常美国化的想法，与其他美国关于为每个人提供机会的想法非常接近。
The Apple and Hewlett Packard garages have now become such a part of Silicon Valley myth that it's made other tech companies want their own stories like it.
苹果和惠普的车库现在已经成为硅谷神话的一部分，以至于其他科技公司也想拥有自己的类似故事。
Google, for example.
以谷歌为例。
They did not start in a garage.
他们并不是从车库开始的。
The founders began working on the search engine in 1996 when they were at Stanford.
创始人于 1996 年在斯坦福大学就读时开始研究搜索引擎。
They didn't actually move into a garage until 1998.
直到 1998 年，他们才真正搬进车库。
They already had investors, and they were just in the garage for five months.
他们已经有了投资者，而他们才在车库里呆了五个月。
But in 2006, Google bought the garage as a company landmark.
但在 2006 年，谷歌买下了这个车库作为公司的地标。
It's like no one wants to hear the story of the rich, well-connected guys who meet up at the Marriott conference room to hatch a business plan.
好像没有人想听那些富有、人脉广泛的人在万豪会议室聚会制定商业计划的故事。
There's no romance in that.
这里面没有什么浪漫可言。
Dan Heath has written about these origin stories in Fast Company Magazine.
丹·希思 (Dan Heath) 在《快公司》杂志上撰写了有关这些起源故事的文章。
He says that one way to measure just how appealing these stories are is to count all the ones that get quoted widely, even though they aren't remotely true.
他说，衡量这些故事的吸引力的一种方法是统计所有被广泛引用的故事，即使它们远非真实。
For instance, when eBay began, a story circulated that its founder created the company so his fiancee could buy and collect Pez dispensers more easily.
例如，当 eBay 成立时，有一个故事流传说，其创始人创建该公司是为了让他的未婚妻可以更轻松地购买和收集 Pez 分配器。
Not true.
不正确。
One of the creators of YouTube used to claim that the idea for the business came after a dinner party in 2005, where two of the company's masterminds, Chad Hurley and Steve Chen, shot some video and then tried to post it online and found out just how hard that was back then.
YouTube 的一位创始人曾声称，这项业务的想法是在 2005 年的一次晚宴后产生的，当时公司的两位策划者查德·赫尔利 (Chad Hurley) 和史蒂夫·陈 (Steve Chen) 拍摄了一些视频，然后试图将其发布到网上，结果发现当时这有多困难。
Now, that is, at a minimum, an exaggerated tale.
现在看来，这至少是一个夸张的故事。
In fact, there's a third founder of YouTube who claims the dinner party never happened.
事实上，YouTube 的第三位创始人声称晚宴从未发生过。
And Steve Chen later admitted in TIME Magazine that the dinner party was embellished to provide a better founding myth.
陈士骏后来在《时代》杂志上承认，晚宴经过修饰，是为了提供更好的建国神话。
And I do want to say that while it feels like a little bit of a let down to realize that this dinner party story is not, you know, the whole truth, I feel like it's a little bit unfair for us to expect more of them than the creation of YouTube.
我确实想说，虽然意识到这个晚宴故事并不是全部真相让人有点失望，但我觉得对我们来说，对他们的期望比 YouTube 的创建更多是有点不公平的。
I mean, here's this incredible site, and in some sense, that's not enough for us.
我的意思是，这是一个令人难以置信的网站，但从某种意义上说，这对我们来说还不够。
Like, we want YouTube to have emerged from some kind of everyday experience.
比如，我们希望 YouTube 能够从某种日常体验中脱颖而出。
It's like it's not enough to have the value of their work.
就好像仅仅拥有他们的工作价值还不够。
We also want there to be a really compelling story that started it.
我们还希望有一个真正引人入胜的故事来开始它。
Now, in the article that you wrote for Fast Company, you point out that our attachment to these kinds of mythic creation stories is so strong that we have even exaggerated the Christopher Columbus story.
现在，您在为《快公司》撰写的文章中指出，我们对这类神话创世故事的执着如此强烈，以至于我们甚至夸大了克里斯托弗·哥伦布的故事。
Well, Christopher Columbus, as we all know, wanted to prove that he could reach India by sailing west.
众所周知，克里斯托弗·哥伦布想证明他可以向西航行到达印度。
But no one believed his crazy theory that the Earth was round.
但没有人相信他的地球是圆的疯狂理论。
And, in fact, his own sailors en route were terrified that they were about to fall over the edge of the Earth, and they almost mutinied.
事实上，他自己的水手在途中都害怕自己即将坠落到地球边缘，他们几乎要叛变。
So there's a guy named James Loewen, a professor at University of Vermont, who has pointed out that virtually every element of this story is false.
佛蒙特大学教授詹姆斯·洛文 (James Loewen) 指出，这个故事中几乎所有元素都是错误的。
That, in fact, we still don't really know where Christopher Columbus was going.
事实上，我们仍然不知道克里斯托弗·哥伦布要去哪里。
There's a lot of disagreement among historians, and even Columbus's best known biographer is totally sure where he was headed.
历史学家之间存在很多分歧，即使是哥伦布最著名的传记作家也完全确定他的前进方向。
And furthermore, there was no element of "is the Earth round or flat" here.
而且，这里不存在“地球是圆的还是平的”的因素。
Most people at that time already knew that the Earth was round.
当时大多数人已经知道地球是圆的。
The evidence was there for them to see.
证据就在那里让他们看到。
They noticed that if another ship is receding into the horizon, their hull disappears first, and then the mast later, which implies that there's some kind of curvature in play.
他们注意到，如果另一艘船正在退入地平线，它们的船体首先消失，然后桅杆消失，这意味着存在某种曲率。
And again, you know, here's a guy who crossed an ocean and became one of the first Europeans to set foot on a new continent, and yet we want more from this guy.
再说一遍，你知道，这个人跨越了大洋，成为了第一批踏上新大陆的欧洲人之一，但我们还想从这个人身上得到更多。
We want him to be having hand-to-hand combat with his crew en route.
我们希望他在途中与他的船员进行肉搏战。
We just crave the drama.
我们只是渴望戏剧。
We crave the obstacles.
我们渴望障碍。
Well, today on our show, origin stories.
好吧，今天我们的节目是起源故事。
We love them so much that sometimes it is hard not to make them up.
我们非常爱他们，有时很难不去弥补。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
Act One of our show today, Madman.
我们今天的节目第一幕，《狂人》。
Act Two, Silent Partner.
第二幕，沉默的伙伴。
Act Three, Wait, Wait, Don't Film Me.
第三幕，等等，等等，别拍我。
Act Four, Bill Clinton's Seven-Year-Old Brother.
第四幕，比尔·克林顿七岁的弟弟。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One.
第一幕。
Well, this first story is about a fight over the origin of certain ideas-- a fight over who really came up with those ideas.
好吧，第一个故事是关于某些想法的起源之争——一场关于谁真正提出了这些想法的争斗。
Sarah Koenig tells a story about her dad, Julian.
莎拉·柯尼格讲述了一个关于她父亲朱利安的故事。
All my life, I've heard the hallmarks of my father's achievements.
在我的一生中，我一直听到父亲的成就的标志。
I invented thumb wrestling.
我发明了拇指摔跤。
Sarah Koenig That was in 1936, when he was a counselor at Camp Greylock for Boys.
莎拉·科尼格 (Sarah Koenig) 那是在 1936 年，当时他是格雷洛克男孩营的辅导员。
They already had arm wrestling for the boys, and leg wrestling.
他们已经为男孩们安排了扳手腕和摔腿比赛。
But we needed another wrestling, and I invented thumb wrestling, with the same rules as a hockey puck face-off.
但我们需要另一种摔跤，我发明了拇指摔跤，其规则与冰球对抗相同。
One, two, three, go.
一、二、三，走。
It just came to you?
它刚刚来找你吗？
Like, just a stroke?
比如，只是中风？
Oh, we should use our thumbs?
哦，我们应该用拇指吗？
It was a-- yeah.
这是——是的。
It was just a devastating moment.
这只是一个毁灭性的时刻。
The discoveries kept coming.
不断有新的发现。
Shrimp, for instance.
以虾为例。
In 1941, my father, a shrimp lover, was discouraged that there were only two places on Broadway in New York where you could get shrimp.
1941年，我的父亲是一位虾爱好者，他对纽约百老汇只有两个地方可以买到虾感到沮丧。
So then in Biloxi, Mississippi-- and bear with me here, because this story barely makes any sense-- so he's in Biloxi on his way to Mexico with some buddies.
然后在密西西比州的比洛克西——请耐心听我说，因为这个故事几乎没有任何意义——所以他在比洛克西和一些朋友一起去墨西哥。
And he sees this government boat about to go out to track the migratory path of shrimp.
他看到这艘政府船即将出海追踪虾的迁徙路线。
And he talks his way onto the boat by explaining that he loves shrimp, apparently.
显然，他在上船时解释说他喜欢虾。
And he goes out on this boat, and they find the shrimp breeding grounds or some such.
他乘船出去，他们找到了虾的繁殖地或类似的地方。
The rest, of course, is history.
当然，其余的都是历史了。
Then, back in New York, I patrolled Broadway and [INAUDIBLE] asking for shrimp, shrimp, shrimp.
然后，回到纽约，我在百老汇巡逻，[听不清]要虾，虾，虾。
More.
更多的。
And in this way, talking it up, I popularized shrimp.
就这样，说起来，我普及了虾。
No question about it.
毫无疑问。
That seems like really, really thin evidence that you popularized shrimp in New York.
这似乎非常非常薄弱的证据表明你在纽约普及了虾。
Well, I'm not making any claim on the industry.
好吧，我并不是对这个行业提出任何要求。
My dad does make a claim on the word "character," that he came up with the idea to use it to mean a person of unusual or eccentric qualities.
我父亲确实对“性格”这个词提出了主张，他想出了用它来指代具有不寻常或古怪品质的人的想法。
You have a character in a play, of course, but it wasn't in common usage as "he's a character."
当然，戏剧中有一个角色，但它并不常见，因为“他是一个角色”。
And what made you-- do you remember why you started using it?
是什么让你——你还记得为什么开始使用它吗？
I just shifted it, adapted it.
我只是改变了它，调整了它。
But Norman Mailer thinks that he developed it.
但诺曼·梅勒认为是他开发的。
I take precedence.
我优先。
According to my father, Norman Mailer also said he invented thumb wrestling.
据我父亲说，诺曼·梅勒还说他发明了拇指摔跤。
Mailer, who died in 2007, was a famous thumb wrestler, but not its inventor, because as we now know, my dad invented it at Camp Greylock for Boys.
梅勒于 2007 年去世，他是一位著名的拇指摔跤运动员，但不是它的发明者，因为我们现在知道，它是我父亲在格雷洛克男孩营发明的。
And that's the rub.
这就是问题所在。
You can't prove the origin of any of this stuff.
你无法证明这些东西的来源。
And it's annoying when people like Norman Mailer take credit.
当诺曼·梅勒这样的人居功自傲时，这很烦人。
My dad would like people to recognize him for his contributions to shrimp and character and thumb wrestling, but he's not going to make a stink if they don't.
我父亲希望人们认可他对虾、性格和拇指摔跤的贡献，但如果他们不这样做，他就不会发出臭味。
His real legacy, though, in advertising, that's another story.
不过，他在广告领域留下的真正遗产则是另一回事了。
That he's willing to fight for, and he has been fighting for it for decades.
他愿意为之奋斗，而且他已经为此奋斗了几十年。
My father was a legendary copy writer.
我的父亲是一位传奇的文案作家。
He wrote "Timex Takes a Licking and Keeps on Ticking." He named Earth Day "Earth Day." It falls on his birthday, April 22nd.
他写道：“Timex 舔了舔，继续滴答作响。”他将地球日命名为“地球日”。 4月22日是他的生日。
Earth Day, birthday, so the idea came easily.
地球日，生日，所以这个想法很容易产生。
The magazine Advertising Age made a list of the top 100 advertising campaigns of the 20th century.
《广告时代》杂志列出了 20 世纪 100 项最佳广告活动。
The Marlboro Man is on it, and the Energizer Bunny.
上面是万宝路男人和劲量兔子。
"Good to the Last Drop" from Maxwell House, and the "Keep America Beautiful" crying Indian.
麦克斯韦之家的“Good to the Last Drop”，以及哭泣的“让美国美丽”的印第安人。
But the number one ad-- the top of the 100 list-- "Think Small." That was Volkswagen's American campaign to sell the Beetle in 1959, and my father wrote it.
但排名第一的广告——100 条广告中的榜首——“Think Small”。那是大众汽车 1959 年在美国销售甲壳虫汽车的活动，是我父亲写的。
A picture of a tiny car on a big white page and some amused self-deprecating copy.
大白页上有一辆小汽车的照片，还有一些有趣的自嘲文案。
That ad was followed by Lemon, another VW ad so iconic it made it onto the TV show Mad Men, the show set in 1960 about an ad agency that's slightly behind the times.
紧随该广告之后的是“Lemon”，这是另一幅具有标志性的大众汽车广告，它出现在电视节目《广告狂人》中，该节目以 1960 年为背景，讲述了一家稍微落后于时代的广告公司的故事。
In this scene, the agency's creative team contemplates the Lemon ad.
在这个场景中，该机构的创意团队正在考虑柠檬广告。
I don't know what I hate about it the most-- the ad or the car.
我不知道我最讨厌什么——广告还是汽车。
Yeah, they did one last year, same kind of smirk.
是的，他们去年就做过一次，同样的傻笑。
Remember "Think Small"?
还记得“小处思考”吗？
It was a half-page ad at a full-page buy.
这是全版购买时的半版广告。
You could barely see the product.
你几乎看不到产品。
I don't get it.
我不明白。
Sarah Koenig At the time, these ads were revolutionary.
Sarah Koenig 在当时，这些广告是革命性的。
"In the beginning, there was Volkswagen," another famous New York ad man wrote.
“一开始，有大众汽车，”另一位著名的纽约广告人写道。
"That was the day when the new advertising agency was really born."
“那一天，新的广告公司真正诞生了。”
Here's another scene from Mad Men when Don Draper, the agency's creative director, interviews some new talent.
这是《广告狂人》中的另一个场景，当时该机构的创意总监唐·德雷珀 (Don Draper) 采访了一些新人。
After he looks at their portfolio, he hands it back to them with this line.
当他查看完他们的作品集后，他用这句话将其交还给他们。
Looks good.
看起来不错。
By the way, it has Julian "Konig's" fingerprints all over it.
顺便说一句，它上面到处都是朱利安“Konig”的指纹。
It's Julian "Kaynig," actually.
实际上是朱利安·“凯尼格”。
My father.
我的父亲。
And what has irritated him for so long is not that he's not recognized for his talent.
长期以来让他恼火的并不是他的才华没有得到认可。
I mean, the people who write Mad Men clearly know who he is.
我的意思是，写《广告狂人》的人清楚地知道他是谁。
It's that some of his best work has been claimed by someone else.
而是他的一些最好的作品被其他人声称了。
In my instance, the greatest predator on my work was my one-time partner, George Lois, who is the most heralded and talented art director, designer.
就我而言，我作品中最大的掠夺者是我曾经的合作伙伴乔治·路易斯（George Lois），他是最受推崇、最有才华的艺术总监、设计师。
And his talent is only exceeded by his omnivorous ego.
他的才华只能被他杂食性的自我超越。
So where it once would have been accepted that the word would be "we" did it, regardless of who originated the work, the word "we" did it evaporated in George's vocabulary, and it became "I."
因此，曾经人们认为这个词是“我们”做到了，无论是谁创作了这部作品，“我们”这个词在乔治的词汇中消失了，变成了“我”。
If you've heard of anyone in the advertising industry, it might be George Lois.
如果您听说过广告行业的某个人，那可能就是乔治·路易斯。
He's well known for a lot of things, but maybe especially for his provocative and funny Esquire magazine covers from the 1960s, like the one of Muhammad Ali posing as Saint Sebastian.
他因很多事情而闻名，但尤其是 20 世纪 60 年代《Esquire》杂志的挑衅性和有趣的封面，比如穆罕默德·阿里 (Muhammad Ali) 扮演圣塞巴斯蒂安 (Saint Sebastian) 的封面。
But before that, George Lois worked at Doyle Dane Bernbach, and so did my father.
但在此之前，乔治·路易斯 (George Lois) 在 Doyle Dane Bernbach 工作，我父亲也是如此。
In 1960, they both left DDB and joined up with another guy, Fred Papert, to form their own upstart agency called PKL-- Papert, Koenig, and Lois.
1960 年，他们双双离开了 DDB，并与另一个人 Fred Papert 一起组建了自己的新贵经纪公司 PKL——Papert、Koenig 和 Lois。
George Lois wouldn't talk to me for this story.
乔治·路易斯不会跟我谈论这个故事。
"I'm not going to get into a sophomoric [BLEEP] fight with a disgruntled ex-partner," he wrote in an email.
“我不会与心怀不满的前伴侣进行一场二年级的[BLEEP]争吵，”他在一封电子邮件中写道。
I can't say I blame him.
我不能说我责怪他。
I've had mixed feelings about this fight.
我对这场战斗的感受很复杂。
Of course I want to stick up for my father, take his side.
我当然想支持我的父亲，站在他一边。
But I've also thought there's something inherently undignified about the whole thing.
但我也认为整件事本质上有失尊严的地方。
Like it's beneath my father to care whether or not George Lois is taking credit for this or that slogan from 1962.
就像我父亲不关心乔治·路易斯是否因 1962 年的这个或那个口号而受到赞扬一样。
So I never really paid attention to the details-- until now.
所以我从来没有真正关注过细节——直到现在。
Lately, it's been coming up more, or at least more publicly, so I started asking questions.
最近，它越来越多地出现，或者至少更加公开，所以我开始提出问题。
According to my father, it all started with the Harvey Probber account.
据我父亲说，这一切都始于哈维·普罗伯的账户。
Harvey Probber made elegant modern furniture, and my dad says he came up with the ad-- a beautiful chair with a matchbook under one leg and the line, "if your Harvey Probber chair wobbles, straighten your floor," and a piece of copy that went with it that he thought was very good.
哈维·普罗伯制造了优雅的现代家具，我爸爸说他想出了这则广告——一把漂亮的椅子，一条腿下放着一根火柴盒，上面写着“如果你的哈维·普罗伯椅子摇摇晃晃，把你的地板弄直”，还有一张他认为非常好的与之配套的文案。
And a year or so later, or a couple of years later, Ron Holland, a friend of mine, came running into my office to say, George is upstairs with a Japanese editorial writer.
大约一年后，或者几年后，我的朋友罗恩·霍兰德跑进我的办公室说，乔治在楼上和一位日本社论作家在一起。
They're doing an interview with him, and he's claiming your Harvey Probber chair ad-- that he wrote it.
他们正在对他进行采访，他声称你的 Harvey Probber 椅子广告是他写的。
So I called George down to my office and remonstrated-- that's what men do frequently-- with him.
于是我把乔治叫到我的办公室，向他提出抗议——这是男人经常做的事。
And he says, I never said that.
他说，我从来没有这么说过。
I would never say that.
我永远不会这么说。
And he went back to his office.
然后他回到了自己的办公室。
And a little while later, Ron comes bursting into my office saying, George said, I told that son of a gun where to get off!
过了一会儿，罗恩冲进我的办公室说，乔治说，我告诉那个混蛋在哪里下车！
Told me where to get off.
告诉我在哪里下车。
So that was really the start of it.
这才是真正的开始。
In 1972, George Lois published a book, the first of many, about his career, called George, Be Careful.
1972 年，乔治·路易斯 (George Lois) 出版了一本关于他的职业生涯的书，名为《乔治，小心》，这是第一本。
In it, he describes going to the Harvey Probber furniture factory in Massachusetts with my dad.
在其中，他描述了和我父亲一起去马萨诸塞州哈维·普罗伯家具厂的情况。
"Each chair was placed on an electronic test platform to be sure it was absolutely level," Lois wrote.
“每把椅子都被放置在电子测试平台上，以确保其绝对水平，”路易斯写道。
"'Got a book of matches?' I asked Julian, a heavy smoker.
“‘有火柴盒吗？’我问朱利安，他是个烟鬼。
He handed me a matchbook, and I slid it under one leg of the chair on the test platform.
他递给我一本火柴盒，我把它滑到测试台上椅子的一条腿下面。
'I've got the ad,' I said.
“我收到了广告，”我说。
If your Harvey Probber chair is crooked, straighten your floor.' Julian scowled and shot back, 'Ass [BLEEP], If your Harvey Probber chair wobbles, straighten your floor.' That was the way the ad ran, and that was the way we built the first red-hot creative agency."
如果您的 Harvey Probber 椅子歪了，请将地板弄直。朱利安皱起眉头，反驳道，“混蛋[哔]，如果你的哈维·普罗伯椅子摇晃，把你的地板弄直。”这就是广告的投放方式，这就是我们建立第一个炙手可热的创意机构的方式。”
And none of that ever happened as described by George.
但正如乔治所描述的那样，这一切都没有发生。
He didn't ask me for a matchbook.
他没有向我要火柴盒。
He didn't slide it under the leg of a chair.
他没有把它滑到椅子腿下面。
He didn't say, I've got the ad.
他没有说，我已经收到广告了。
None of it is true.
这些都不是真的。
But his makes a better story.
但他的故事更精彩。
Julian Koenig His is a marvelous story.
朱利安·柯尼格（Julian Koenig）的故事非常精彩。
George is a talented storyteller with a vivid imagination.
乔治是一位才华横溢的讲故事者，想象力丰富。
The only thing that could exceed it would be the truth.
唯一能超越它的就是真相。
There are other instances, also regarding ads that were groundbreaking for their time.
还有其他例子，也涉及当时具有开创性的广告。
A campaign for the New York Herald Tribune, "Who says a good newspaper has to be dull?" Some famous Xerox commercials showing a little girl operating a copy machine, and later, a chimpanzee doing it.
《纽约先驱论坛报》的一项活动，“谁说好报纸就一定是乏味的？”一些著名的施乐广告展示了一个小女孩操作复印机，后来又展示了一只黑猩猩在操作。
[?
[？
An ad ?] several people who worked on the account have complained that George literally had nothing to do with.
广告？] 几个负责该帐户的人抱怨说，乔治实际上与此无关。
Then there's the ad for Coldene cough medicine.
然后是 Coldene 止咳药的广告。
The page is entirely black with just two quotes at different heights, meant to show a couple talking in bed.
该页面完全是黑色的，只有两个不同高度的引号，旨在显示一对夫妇在床上交谈。
"John, is that Billy coughing?" says the wife.
“约翰，比利在咳嗽吗？”妻子说。
"Get up and give him some Coldene," the husband replies.
“站起来，给他喝点感冒药，”丈夫回答道。
In an interview 20 years later, George Lois said, "The idea for the ad hit me like a brainstorm.
20 年后的一次采访中，乔治·路易斯 (George Lois) 说道：“这则广告的想法让我产生了头脑风暴。
This was the first time there would be no copy, no package design, no trademark," he said.
这是第一次没有副本、没有包装设计、没有商标，”他说。
"It was really the beginning of a new creative revolution.
“这确实是一场新的创意革命的开始。
It was one of those ads that made history, effectively." Again, my dad is adamant that the whole ad, copy and design, were his.
这是那些有效地创造历史的广告之一。”我父亲再次坚称整个广告、文案和设计都是他的。
There are many possibilities here of what's going on.
这里发生的事情有很多可能性。
George Lois could be lying.
乔治·路易斯可能在撒谎。
Or George Lois could have convinced himself in some way that what he's saying about all this stuff is true.
或者乔治·路易斯可以以某种方式说服自己，他所说的所有这些事情都是真实的。
Or my dad could be doing the same thing-- remembering stuff that happened when it didn't happen.
或者我的父亲可能也在做同样的事情——记住那些没有发生的事情。
Or, I suppose, my dad could be lying.
或者，我想，我父亲可能在撒谎。
I'd worry about those latter options more if my father was the only one disputing George Lois's version of history, but he's not.
如果我父亲是唯一一个对乔治·路易斯的历史版本提出异议的人，我会更担心后一种选择，但他不是。
There's the photographer Carl Fisher, who worked with George Lois for more than 30 years, and shot many of the most famous Esquire covers.
摄影师卡尔·费舍尔 (Carl Fisher) 与乔治·路易斯 (George Lois) 合作了 30 多年，拍摄了许多最著名的《时尚先生》封面。
Carl Fisher says George has taken credit for cover ideas and photographs that were Carl's, and talked in detail about certain photoshoots.
卡尔·费舍尔说乔治将卡尔的封面创意和照片归功于乔治，并详细讨论了某些照片的拍摄。
Like about flying to Las Vegas to shoot the boxer Sonny Liston as Santa, and even placing the Santa cap on Liston's head.
比如飞往拉斯维加斯将拳击手桑尼·利斯顿拍摄成圣诞老人，甚至将圣诞老人帽子戴在利斯顿的头上。
Or rushing Italian actress Virna Lisi into a photoshoot in New York for this famous cover where she's pretending to shave her face.
或者催促意大利女演员维尔娜·丽西 (Virna Lisi) 前往纽约拍摄这张著名封面的照片，其中她假装刮胡子。
But Fisher says George wasn't there for either shoot.
但费舍尔说乔治没有参加两次拍摄。
In fact, the Lisi shoot happened in Rome, and he still has the receipts to prove it.
事实上，李斯的拍摄是在罗马发生的，他还有收据可以证明这一点。
And then there's Shelley Zalaznick, the first editor of New York Magazine.
还有雪莱·扎拉兹尼克（Shelley Zalaznick），《纽约杂志》的第一任编辑。
George once told a reporter, quote, "My hand on the Bible, I, George Lois, created New York Magazine." Mr. Zalaznick says that's simply not true.
乔治曾经对记者说：“我，乔治·路易斯，是我手上的《圣经》，创立了《纽约杂志》。”扎拉兹尼克先生说这根本不是真的。
He himself remembers making the first dummy front page one hot August night in 1963.
他本人还记得 1963 年八月一个炎热的夜晚制作了第一个虚拟头版。
Not only that-- he's never met George Lois.
不仅如此——他从未见过乔治·路易斯。
"As for George's version," he told me, "I'm at a loss.
“至于乔治的版本，”他告诉我，“我不知所措。
I don't know why grownups do things like this."
我不明白为什么大人会做这样的事情。”
But the story my father objects to the most isn't about ad copy at all.
但我父亲最反对的故事根本不是关于广告文案的。
It's personal.
这是个人的。
Papert, Koenig, and Lois had gotten the Dutch Master Cigar account, and their TV spokesman at the time was this famous comedian, Ernie Kovacs.
帕普特、科尼格和路易斯获得了荷兰雪茄大师的账号，当时他们的电视发言人是著名喜剧演员厄尼·科瓦奇。
So my dad flew out to LA to meet him, and they hit it off.
于是我爸爸飞到洛杉矶去见他，他们一拍即合。
And Ernie and I spent the day together, driving around, and lunched together.
厄尼和我一起度过了一天，开车到处转，一起吃午饭。
End of the afternoon, in the lobby of the hotel I was saying in, the Beverly Hilton, he was not allowed past the lobby, because he had short pants on.
下午结束时，在我所说的贝弗利希尔顿酒店的大堂，他不被允许通过大堂，因为他穿着短裤。
And then he went off to go to a party that night.
然后那天晚上他就去参加一个聚会了。
And on his way home, there being a rain, his car skidded and went into a pole, and Ernie killed himself.
在回家的路上，下着雨，他的车打滑撞到了一根柱子上，厄尼自杀了。
I was on a plane back to New York and learned about it the next morning.
第二天早上我在返回纽约的飞机上得知了这件事。
So, unfortunate incident, but certainly memorable to me.
所以，不幸的事件，但对我来说肯定是难忘的。
And lo and behold.
你瞧。
Lo and behold, in his 2005 book, $elebrities which is spelled with a dollar sign instead of a C at the beginning, George tells the story of his lovely lunch with Ernie, his car ride to the airport with Ernie, his red eye flight back to New York, and his learning the following morning from a stack of still-bound newspapers that Ernie had been killed in a car crash.
你瞧，在他 2005 年出版的书《$elebrities》中，乔治在开头用美元符号而不是 C 拼写，讲述了他与厄尼共进午餐的故事，他与厄尼一起乘车去机场，他红眼航班返回纽约，以及第二天早上他从一堆仍然装订的报纸中得知厄尼在车祸中丧生的故事。
My father has tried to fight back, aggressively at times.
我父亲曾试图反击，有时甚至是咄咄逼人。
For instance, after the Ernie Kovacs story appeared in $elebrities , my dad retaliated in the medium he knows best.
例如，在厄尼·科瓦奇的故事出现在《名人》杂志上之后，我父亲在他最熟悉的媒体上进行了报复。
He wrote an ad.
他写了一个广告。
That's Lois, L-O-I-S.
那是路易斯，L-O-I-S。
Julian Koenig And I wanted to print it in the New York Times as a book review.
朱利安·科尼格（Julian Koenig） 我想将其作为书评发表在《纽约时报》上。
A public service book review.
公共服务书评。
The Times didn't run it, but it did run in Adweek, though toward the back of the magazine, and it got no response.
《泰晤士报》没有刊登它，但它确实在《广告周刊》上刊登了，尽管是在杂志的后面，但没有得到任何回应。
Over the years, he and some of his former colleagues have written to reporters at the New York Times and other places, trying to correct the record.
多年来，他和一些前同事曾写信给《纽约时报》等地的记者，试图纠正这一记录。
But their letters have mostly been ignored.
但他们的信件大多被忽视。
Just last year, a Times story about an exhibit of George Lois's Esquire covers credited him, in the very first paragraph, with "Think Small," the Xerox ads with the chimp, and a couple of other campaigns people say George either didn't originate or didn't even work on.
就在去年，《泰晤士报》一篇关于乔治·路易斯的《时尚先生》封面展览的报道在第一段就将其归功于他的“小处思考”、施乐黑猩猩广告以及其他一些活动，人们说乔治不是发起的，甚至不是他参与的。
Finally, the Times printed a short correction, giving "Think Small" back to my dad.
最后，《泰晤士报》刊登了一个简短的更正，将“细想”还给了我父亲。
But it was a small victory, three weeks after the fact.
但这只是一个小小的胜利，距离事发三周之后。
In the mid-'80s, my dad wrote a letter to George directly, threatening to sue, it seems, and received a letter back calling him a sad, tortured and tragic figure.
八十年代中期，我父亲直接给乔治写了一封信，似乎威胁要起诉，但收到了回信，称他是一个悲伤、饱受折磨的悲剧人物。
All in all, my father's efforts haven't really done the damage he's hoped, or really, any damage at all.
总而言之，我父亲的努力并没有真正造成他所希望的损害，或者说根本没有造成任何损害。
He's an indignant Basset Hound, nipping at the heels of the media's Great Dane.
他是一只愤怒的巴吉度猎犬，紧追着媒体的大丹犬。
George Lois is a good talker with an engaging personality, and he's become something of a spokesman for the advertising industry.
乔治·路易斯是一位健谈的人，性格迷人，他已经成为广告业的代言人。
There are quotes in the newspaper, and magazine profiles, exhibits, books.
报纸、杂志简介、展品、书籍中都有引述。
Errors printed once are repeated and repeated.
打印一次的错误会不断重复。
So if you look up "Think Small" on the internet, for instance, you'll find it attributed to Julian Koenig, but you're also likely to learn that George Lois wrote it.
例如，如果您在互联网上查找“Think Small”，您会发现它是朱利安·科尼格（Julian Koenig）的作品，但您也可能会发现它是乔治·路易斯（George Lois）写的。
I liked the way he took credit for accounts he never had anything to do with, because that made it almost comical.
我喜欢他把与他无关的账户归功于他的方式，因为这使得它几乎是滑稽的。
All the Xerox stuff-- Xerox was an account that I got-- was done by Sam Scali and I think Mike Chapell.
所有施乐的东西——施乐是我得到的一个账户——都是由萨姆·斯卡利和迈克·查佩尔完成的。
And George, at the end, started taking credit for that, too.
乔治最终也开始为此沾沾自喜。
That's Fred Papert, the P of PKL.
那是 Fred Papert，PKL 的 P。
He was the guy who recruited Lois and Koenig to make a new agency in 1960.
1960 年，他招募了 Lois 和 Koenig 组建了一家新机构。
Now he's one of the guys responsible for redeveloping Times Square as president of the 42nd Street Development Corporation.
现在，他是第 42 街开发公司的总裁，是负责重建时代广场的人之一。
He knows the stories all too well-- Xerox, Harvey Probber, Coldene, Ernie Kovacs, even.
他对这些故事太了解了——施乐、哈维·普罗伯、科尔登、厄尼·科瓦奇，甚至。
It's nuts.
太疯狂了。
I think he's really got a screw loose.
我觉得他真的是螺丝松了。
I think George truly doesn't know what he's doing.
我认为乔治真的不知道自己在做什么。
But it's nutty on both sides.
但两边都很疯狂。
Fred's in my dad's camp, in so far as he knows and believes my dad is telling the truth.
弗雷德站在我父亲的阵营中，因为他知道并相信我父亲说的是实话。
But his support more or less stops there.
但他的支持或多或少就到此为止了。
and he's categorical on this point-- that my dad is himself acting like a nut, wasting his time.
他在这一点上很明确——我父亲自己表现得像个疯子，浪费时间。
They've talked about this on rides to and from the racetrack.
他们在往返赛马场的路上讨论过这个问题。
The reason that Julian should not be fussing about this stuff at this stage is A, nobody gives a [BLEEP].
Julian 在这个阶段不应该对这些事情大惊小怪的原因是 A，没有人发出[BLEEP]。
B, anybody that would give a [BLEEP] knows already what it's about.
B，任何会发出[BLEEP]声的人都已经知道它是关于什么的。
This is what George does.
这就是乔治所做的。
It's George's thing.
这是乔治的事。
And they just got to put a lid on it.
他们只需盖上盖子即可。
But I've had this conversation with him 100 times, and he gets really pissed off.
但我已经和他谈过 100 次这样的话题了，他真的很生气。
So I know he's got a screw loose, too.
所以我知道他也有问题。
Your father can be a pain in the ass, you know, and even be pesty if you say to him, Julian, [BLEEP] off already.
你知道，你的父亲可能会让人讨厌，甚至如果你对他说，朱利安，[哔]走开，他甚至会变得讨厌。
We've heard this story.
我们都听过这个故事。
We know about the wobbling chair or the wobbling floor-- I've forgotten which one.
我们知道摇晃的椅子或摇晃的地板——我忘了是哪一个了。
You have no idea how many letters we wrote to the New York Times, to Advertising Age, to this and that.
你不知道我们给《纽约时报》、《广告时代》、这个那个写了多少封信。
This is a dialogue between old farts.
这是老屁之间的对话。
Julian's in another world from these kinds of things.
朱利安已经远离了这些事情，进入了另一个世界。
Julian is one of the great thinkers and creators in the advertising business.
朱利安是广告界最伟大的思想家和创造者之一。
If some nutcase claims credit, who cares?
如果某个疯子声称功劳，谁在乎呢？
And he doesn't even really like me very much.
而且他甚至不太喜欢我。
You have to understand that that's where we start.
你必须明白，这就是我们的起点。
Well, it's true.
嗯，这是真的。
I think he goes to the races with me because I have a car.
我想他和我一起去比赛是因为我有车。
My father recognizes that there are only about four people left on Earth who care about this stuff.
我父亲认识到地球上只剩下大约四个人关心这些东西。
It's just that he happens to be one of them, and he cannot let it go.
只是他恰好是其中一员，他无法释怀。
I assume if I had a different personality, I would say, I know what I've done.
我想如果我有不同的性格，我会说，我知道我做了什么。
And those dear and near to me know what I have done or not done, and let it go at that.
那些我亲爱的和亲近的人知道我做了什么或没做什么，然后就让它过去吧。
But I'm a fallible fellow, and obviously, with ego of his own, and I resent being burgled.
但我是一个容易犯错的人，而且显然，我也很自负，而且我讨厌被盗窃。
The odd thing about all this, as my older brother John points out, is that my father's never exactly been a champion of advertising.
正如我的哥哥约翰所指出的，这一切的奇怪之处在于我的父亲从来都不是广告界的拥护者。
And he never believed.
而他从不相信。
He wasn't a true believer in the business.
他并不是这个行业的真正信徒。
I mean, I remember him saying to me as a kid, you know, if you don't find something you want to do and really work at it, you're going to end up like me.
我的意思是，我记得小时候他对我说，你知道，如果你没有找到你想做的事情并真正努力去做，你最终会像我一样。
A writer of short sentences.
短句作家。
That's verbatim.
这是逐字逐句的。
And so it's a little ironic, you know?
所以这有点讽刺，你知道吗？
Because he didn't care.
因为他不在乎。
That's the thing, Sarah.
就是这样，莎拉。
All those years, he didn't care, because I think he thought it was beneath him.
这些年来，他并不在意，因为我认为他认为这有失身份。
And the business, in some ways, was not beneath him, but was not serious enough to care that much about.
从某些方面来说，这件事并不在他之下，但也没有严肃到值得他关心的程度。
And now he does.
现在他做到了。
I understand why he cares.
我明白他为什么关心。
He's 88 years old now, so his legacy, understandably, is on his mind.
他现在已经 88 岁了，所以他心里挂念着他的遗产，这是可以理解的。
And even though he did campaigns for all sorts of good causes-- gun control, nuclear proliferation, Robert Kennedy's senatorial and presidential campaigns-- my father's not quite satisfied with his life's work.
尽管他为各种美好的事业进行了竞选活动——枪支管制、核扩散、罗伯特·肯尼迪的参议员和总统竞选——但我父亲对他一生的工作并不太满意。
Advertising is built on puffery, on, at heart, deception, and I don't think anybody can go proudly into the next world with a career built on deception, even though no matter how well they do it.
广告是建立在虚张声势、内心欺骗的基础上的，我认为任何人都不能自豪地以欺骗为基础的职业进入下一个世界，即使他们做得有多好。
You're not necessarily proud that you had a career in the field of advertising and that's your legacy, but you are proud that you were the best in the business at the thing you chose to do.
你不一定会因为自己在广告领域从事职业而感到自豪，那是你的遗产，但你会为自己在自己选择做的事情上是业内最优秀的而感到自豪。
If he could go back, choose another career, my father would like to have been an environmentalist of some kind, which is why he'd really like to be remembered for something almost nobody knows he did-- naming Earth Day.
如果他可以回去，选择另一个职业，我父亲希望成为某种环保主义者，这就是为什么他真的希望因为几乎没有人知道他所做的事情而被人们记住——命名地球日。
It agitated him to look up Earth Day on Wikipedia recently and not see his name anywhere.
最近他在维基百科上查找地球日，却没有看到他的名字，这让他很兴奋。
So a few days ago, I added it.
所以几天前，我添加了它。
We first ran this story back in 2009.
我们第一次报道这个故事是在 2009 年。
Sarah's dad, Julian Koenig, just recently died in June.
莎拉的父亲朱利安·科尼格 (Julian Koenig) 最近于六月去世。
He was 93.
他93岁了。
Sarah Koenig is one of the producers of our program.
莎拉·科尼格 (Sarah Koenig) 是我们节目的制作人之一。
In two weeks, we're actually launching a brand new show, and Sarah is the host of that show.
两周后，我们实际上将推出一个全新的节目，莎拉是该节目的主持人。
Yes, This American Life is putting out a second weekly program.
是的，《美国生活》正在推出第二个每周节目。
We have a new show.
我们有一个新节目。
It's a podcast.
这是一个播客。
It's called Serial.
它被称为串行。
The idea is that instead of different stories and a different theme each week, every episode of Serial brings you back to the same story, and you hear the next chapter.
这个想法是，不再是每周都有不同的故事和不同的主题，连续剧的每一集都会带你回到同一个故事，然后你会听到下一章。
We've been working on this for a year.
我们为此已经努力了一年。
We are very excited to bring it to you.
我们非常高兴能够将其带给您。
We are giving you two episodes to start.
我们给你两集来开始。
It's in two weeks.
两周后就到了
October 3rd.
10 月 3 日。
You can sign up for free downloads and hear a sneak preview at serialpodcast.org, or on the iTunes store.
您可以在serialpodcast.org 或iTunes 商店上注册免费下载并试听。
That's serialpodcast.org, spelled not like the breakfast food.
那是serialpodcast.org，拼写不像早餐食品。
Coming up, Peter Sagal, long before Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me, his lost years in Havana.
彼得·萨格尔（Peter Sagal）即将登场，早在《等等，等等，别告诉我》之前，他在哈瓦那失去的岁月。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, we choose a theme, bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
每周我们的节目都会选择一个主题，为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's show, Origin Stories, where we go back to figure out where things came from.
今天的节目《起源故事》让我们回溯事物的起源。
We've arrived at Act Two of our program.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two, Silent Partner.
第二幕，沉默的伙伴。
One of our producers, Sean Cole, visited Chad's Trading Post, a restaurant filled with frilly knickknacks in Southampton, Massachusetts.
我们的制作人之一肖恩·科尔 (Sean Cole) 参观了查德贸易站 (Chad's Trading Post)，这是一家位于马萨诸塞州南安普敦的餐厅，里面摆满了褶边小玩意。
It's a restaurant with a very distinct origin story.
这是一家有着非常独特的起源故事的餐厅。
The first time my girlfriend Mary Ellen and I walked into Chad's Trading Post, she noticed that only boys work there, and thought it was weird.
当我和女朋友玛丽·艾伦第一次走进乍得的贸易站时，她注意到只有男孩在那里工作，并认为这很奇怪。
Normally, she said, in a place like this, a small country restaurant, you only see girls working.
她说，通常情况下，在像这样的乡村小餐馆里，你只会看到女孩在工作。
She pointed to the cover of the menu, which read, "Dedicated to and operated proudly in the memory of Chad D.
她指着菜单的封面，上面写着：“献给查德 D.
McDonald, 3/12/74 to 3/11/90."
麦当劳，74 年 3 月 12 日至 90 年 3 月 11 日。”
She leaned in to me and whispered, do you think the owner hires only boys because they remind her of her son?
她靠向我低声说道，你认为老板只雇用男孩是因为他们让她想起了她的儿子吗？
I certainly thought this was possible, and sad, in a way that makes you feel embarrassed for that person.
我当然认为这是可能的，而且令人悲伤，在某种程度上让你为那个人感到尴尬。
Then a man came over and poured us some coffee.
然后一个男人走过来给我们倒了一些咖啡。
And when he turned around, there, in huge white letters, on the back of his blue polo shirt, it said, Chad's brother.
当他转过身来时，他蓝色马球衫的背面用巨大的白色字母写着：查德的兄弟。
Do you think that's what they call all the managers here, I asked Mary Ellen.
“你认为这就是他们对这里所有经理的称呼吗？”我问玛丽·艾伦。
Do you think that's really Chad's brother?
你认为那真的是查德的兄弟吗？
Then another friendlier manager type came over and asked us how we were doing, and if we needed more coffee.
然后另一位更友好的经理过来问我们过得怎么样，是否需要更多咖啡。
And I noticed his shirt.
我注意到他的衬衫。
My shirt says "Chad's best friend." Logo over on the right hand side.
我的衬衫上写着“查德最好的朋友”。徽标位于右侧。
And it just tells the customers who we are.
它只是告诉客户我们是谁。
Yeah, Chad's best friend, yeah, Chad's brother, Chad's dad.
是的，查德最好的朋友，是的，查德的兄弟，查德的爸爸。
And we had Chad's mom, too, but she's doing other things.
我们还有查德的妈妈，但她正在做其他事情。
This is the story of Chad's Trading Post.
这是乍得贸易站的故事。
From the time he was 12, Chad and his brothers and a few friends had always talked about starting a small restaurant together when they graduated high school.
从 12 岁起，查德就一直和他的兄弟以及几个朋友谈论高中毕业后一起开一家小餐馆。
They planned out menus.
他们计划好了菜单。
Chad's father took him looking for locations.
查德的父亲带他寻找地点。
But Chad died in a shooting accident two days before his 16th birthday.
但查德在 16 岁生日前两天因枪击事故身亡。
Chad's father Glenn, his brothers Scott and Cory, and his best friend Mike tell the story.
查德的父亲格伦、他的兄弟斯科特和科里以及他最好的朋友迈克讲述了这个故事。
The boy who shot and killed my son was his younger brother's best friend.
枪杀我儿子的男孩是他弟弟最好的朋友。
It was myself and my best friend at the time and Chad.
这是我自己、我当时最好的朋友和查德。
And they were cleaning up the cellar for his birthday.
他们正在为他的生日清理地窖。
No, you were there too, yeah.
不，你也在那里，是的。
Yeah.
是的。
We were in the kitchen cooking sausage.
我们在厨房里煮香肠。
Yeah.
是的。
We were cooking dinner.
我们正在做饭。
But they were downstairs cleaning, and I was upstairs.
但他们在楼下打扫卫生，我在楼上。
My mother had just left, and me and Cory were upstairs cooking dinner.
我妈妈刚刚离开，我和科里正在楼上做饭。
And they came up for a break, went into the room, and then we heard, like, a little firecracker go off.
他们上来休息一下，走进房间，然后我们听到，就像一声小鞭炮响了。
You know?
你知道？
And then the person came out of the room and he had blood on his hands, and he was freaking out.
然后那个人从房间里出来，他的手上沾满了血，他吓坏了。
"I shot Chad, I shot Chad."
“我射杀了查德，我射杀了查德。”
The official ruling, which was that Chad picked up a gun, pointed it at this fellow, said bang.
“官方的裁决是，查德拿起枪，指向了这个家伙，”砰的一声说道。
The other fellow picked up a gun, pointed it back at Chad, pulled the trigger, and that was all.
另一个家伙拿起一把枪，将它指向查德，扣动扳机，仅此而已。
So I called 911.
于是我拨打了 911。
And then I paged my mother.
然后我给我妈妈打电话。
And then the police got there.
然后警察就到了那里。
I was charged for involuntary manslaughter, because it was my handgun that ultimately killed Chad, and that I was not aware that he had two of my handguns out of my cabinet in his bedroom at the time.
我被指控过失杀人，因为最终杀死查德的是我的手枪，而且我当时并不知道他卧室的柜子里有我的两把手枪。
And, frankly, that was something I should have been aware of.
坦率地说，这是我应该意识到的事情。
In 1993, the year Chad would have graduated from high school, the year he and Mike and his brothers and his father had planned to open a restaurant, they decided to open Chad's Trading Post.
1993 年，也就是查德高中毕业的那一年，他和迈克、他的兄弟以及他的父亲计划开一家餐馆的那一年，他们决定开设查德贸易站。
This is Chad's corner of the restaurant.
这是餐厅查德的一角。
Notice the menu board.
注意菜单板。
It tells you, welcome to Chad's Trading Post Family Restaurant.
它告诉你，欢迎来到乍得的贸易站家庭餐厅。
It says "nobody leaves hungry," and lists all the specials of the day.
上面写着“没有人饿着肚子离开”，并列出了当天的所有特色菜。
It also has a claimer on the bottom that's Named in Memory of Chad D.
它的底部还有一个以纪念 Chad D 命名的索赔者。
McDonald, and the date of his birth, which was 3/12/74.
麦克唐纳，以及他的出生日期，即 74 年 3 月 12 日。
In all of the interviews I've ever heard and seen of an emotional nature, the person answering questions doesn't begin to cry until well into the interview.
在我听过和见过的所有情绪化的采访中，回答问题的人直到采访结束后才开始哭泣。
Chad's dad began crying before I even turned on my tape recorder.
我还没打开录音机，查德的爸爸就开始哭了。
I asked him for a quick tour of the restaurant.
我请他快速参观了一下餐厅。
It's a nice place-- homey, even froofy, though all the men who created it are tattooed, muscly, working-class guys, Chad's father included.
这是一个不错的地方——温馨，甚至有些荒唐，尽管所有创造它的人都是纹身的、肌肉发达的工人阶级，包括查德的父亲。
To the left of that, it shows you the last and most recent picture of my son, which was taken about six weeks before he died.
在它的左边，它向您展示了我儿子的最后一张也是最近的照片，这是在他去世前大约六周拍摄的。
And the picture of the two boys that were named in memory of him, his younger brother's son, who is Ian Chadwick, and his best friend's son, who is named Chad Michael.
还有两个男孩的照片，这是为了纪念他而命名的，他弟弟的儿子伊恩·查德威克（Ian Chadwick）和他最好朋友的儿子查德·迈克尔（Chad Michael）。
This photo originally showed the two babies in Glenn's arms, but they had the photographer alter the photo, insert Chad's head over Glenn's.
这张照片最初显示了格伦怀里的两个婴儿，但他们让摄影师改变了照片，将查德的头放在格伦的头上。
And what they did was took the picture and replaced, by computer, Chad's picture over mine.
他们所做的就是拍下照片并通过计算机将查德的照片替换为我的照片。
It's actually my arms holding him, but the rest of it's all Chad.
实际上是我的手臂抱着他，但其余的都是查德。
Glenn showed me a painting in another corner of the restaurant.
格伦给我看了餐厅另一个角落的一幅画。
It was the comedy and tragedy masks from the cover of Motley Crue's album Theater of Pain, Chad's favorite record.
这是莫特利·克鲁 (Motley Crue) 的专辑《痛苦剧院》(Theatre of Pain) 封面上的喜剧和悲剧面具，查德最喜欢的唱片。
After he died, Chad's friends and brothers adapted the design into a memorial to him.
在他去世后，查德的朋友和兄弟将这个设计改编成他的纪念碑。
It appears on their shirts.
它出现在他们的衬衫上。
Two brass masks hang over the door, smiling and frowning.
两个黄铜面具挂在门上，微笑着皱着眉头。
A huge flag with the masks hangs in the breeze outside, too heavy to flutter.
外面微风中悬挂着一面带有面具的巨大旗帜，沉重得无法飘扬。
Chad's brother Scott calls them "the faces."
查德的兄弟斯科特称他们为“面孔”。
This was my first tattoo.
这是我的第一个纹身。
I got the comedy and tragedy faces, with the "In memory of Chad" banner, and that was my first tattoo.
我得到了喜剧和悲剧的面孔，还有“纪念乍得”的横幅，那是我的第一个纹身。
And I got that for the obvious reason.
我得到这个的原因很明显。
That's pretty much the family symbol now.
现在这几乎是家庭的象征。
It started off with my father getting it.
这一切都是从我父亲得到它开始的。
Because this was the tattoo he wanted to get, you know, without the banners.
因为这是他想要的纹身，你知道，没有横幅。
But that's what he wanted to get.
但这就是他想要得到的。
That's what he planned on getting the following year for his birthday.
这就是他计划明年生日时得到的礼物。
I mean, he already had it planned out, you know?
我的意思是，他已经计划好了，你知道吗？
And so my father came home with it one day, and he got it.
有一天，我父亲带着它回家，他得到了它。
And you and your dad, though, aren't the only ones.
然而，你和你的父亲并不是唯一的人。
No. There's me and my father, Steve [?
不，有我和我的父亲，史蒂夫[？
Prisbian, ?] Mike [?
普里斯比安，？] 迈克 [？
Richberg, ?] who still works here.
里奇伯格，？]仍然在这里工作。
My grandmother has the sad face.
我的祖母满脸悲伤。
The tattoo?
纹身？
Scott Yeah.
斯科特 是的。
She has it on her chest, too.
她胸前也有它。
And Eric [INAUDIBLE], who worked here, has it also.
在这里工作的埃里克[听不清]也有这种情况。
And it's good.
这很好。
It's nice to see people.
很高兴见到人们。
There's probably, all together, 15 people that have his name tattooed on them.
总共可能有 15 个人身上纹有他的名字。
We used to sit around the kitchen table, and take a needle and wrap thread around it, and dip it in calligraphy ink and tattoo each other with it.
我们常常坐在厨房的桌子旁，拿一根针，缠上一根线，蘸上书法墨水，互相纹身。
And there's quite a few people who we masterfully tattooed Chad's name on their arm.
我们巧妙地将查德的名字纹在了很多人的手臂上。
Whether they like it now or not, it's still there.
不管他们现在喜欢与否，它仍然在那里。
They've tried to stay as close to Chad's vision of the restaurant as possible.
他们试图尽可能接近乍得对餐厅的愿景。
He never specified decor, so they've had a free hand there.
他从未指定装饰，所以他们可以自由支配。
He and Mike actually drafted a menu for the place, and the families kept about half of it.
他和迈克实际上为这个地方起草了一份菜单，家庭保留了大约一半的菜单。
The other half was slow baking recipes that no customer would ever wait for.
另一半是慢速烘焙食谱，没有顾客会等待。
Chad was also a lot of fun, everyone says.
大家都说，查德也很有趣。
A lot of fun.
很有趣。
A comedian.
一个喜剧演员。
And they say that's why they joke around so much at Chad's Trading Post.
他们说这就是为什么他们在乍得贸易站开那么多玩笑的原因。
Scott says when he sees a heavyset customer that comes in a lot, he says, hey, tubby.
斯科特说，当他看到一个经常进来的大块头顾客时，他会说，嘿，胖子。
He builds towers of little creamer packages on the bald head of another customer.
他在另一位顾客的光头上堆起了小奶精包装塔。
Glenn throws crumpled up napkins at his employees.
格伦向他的员工扔皱巴巴的餐巾。
They have water fights.
他们打水仗。
All this levity in a place that's essentially a large roadside memorial that serves massive omelettes.
所有这些热闹的地方本质上都是一个大型路边纪念馆，供应大量煎蛋卷。
If Chad was here, we'd have the place upside down by now.
如果查德在这里的话，我们现在已经把这个地方搞得天翻地覆了。
How do you mean?
你是什么意思？
Mike Oh, it's in fun, you know?
迈克哦，这很有趣，你知道吗？
We really have fun now.
我们现在真的很开心。
But I think if he was here, we wouldn't have all that tension of his passing on our shoulder.
但我认为，如果他在这里，我们就不会因为他去世而感到紧张。
The only tension we'd have is how much trouble we're going to get into.
我们唯一的紧张是我们会遇到多少麻烦。
Because I've got to say, I mean, when I was here with Mary Ellen, we didn't know anything about the restaurant either, obviously.
因为我必须说，我的意思是，当我和玛丽·艾伦在这里时，我们显然对这家餐厅一无所知。
We just found it.
我们刚刚找到它。
And the first thing we saw was the menu, and then we saw the back of Scott's shirt.
我们首先看到的是菜单，然后我们看到了斯科特衬衫的背面。
It was a little creepy, in a way.
在某种程度上，这有点令人毛骨悚然。
I've never gotten that response before.
我以前从未收到过这样的回复。
I've never gotten the response that it was creepy.
我从未得到过这令人毛骨悚然的回应。
I always got the response that that's a very nice thing to do.
我总是得到这样的回应：这是一件非常好的事情。
It's very genuine, and it's heartwarming.
这是非常真诚的，也是非常温暖人心的。
I've never gotten creepy before.
我以前从来没有感到毛骨悚然。
Well I just mean that it's like there's somebody else here in the restaurant that's not really here.
嗯，我只是想说，餐厅里好像还有一个人，但他并不真正在这里。
But you know what I mean?
但你知道我的意思吗？
And that's exactly what it is.
事实就是如此。
He's here.
他在这里。
He's here with us, and we kind of have to yell at him once in a while, because every time something silly or stupid happens, you've got to blame somebody.
他和我们在一起，我们有时不得不对他大喊大叫，因为每次发生愚蠢或愚蠢的事情时，你都必须责怪某人。
And he's one to pull a prank on me for that, so oh, he's definitely here.
他就是一个为此对我恶作剧的人，所以哦，他肯定在这里。
But there's nothing creepy about it.
但这并没有什么令人毛骨悚然的。
I think I can safely say I have never seen any other family keep someone alive to this degree.
我想我可以有把握地说，我从未见过任何其他家庭让一个人活到这个程度。
They've gone out of their way to construct a world where they couldn't possibly forget Chad.
他们不遗余力地构建了一个他们不可能忘记查德的世界。
A jumbo-sized photo of Chad stood behind Scott and his wife at their wedding.
在斯科特和他的妻子的婚礼上，一张查德的巨型照片站在他们的身后。
They believe Chad has protected their lives in serious accidents-- that he brought Mike's son through a recent infection unscathed.
他们相信查德在严重事故中保护了他们的生命——他让迈克的儿子毫发无伤地度过了最近的一次感染。
Chad's room is the same as it was the day he was shot in it, with two exceptions.
查德的房间与他被枪击当天的房间一模一样，但有两处例外。
They took down the girlie pictures from the wall, and they replaced the carpet.
他们把墙上的少女照片拿下来，换上了地毯。
Before they did all this, right after Chad died, they all say they were lost.
在他们做这一切之前，查德死后不久，他们都说他们迷路了。
Mike said he wanted to crawl into a hole.
迈克说他想爬进洞里。
Scott and his father had to make a deal with each other-- that neither would kill himself.
斯科特和他的父亲必须达成协议——谁都不会自杀。
Scott and Cory went into counseling.
斯科特和科里开始接受咨询。
Scott says it didn't help much.
斯科特说这没有多大帮助。
But that's how it was when it happened.
但事情发生时就是这样。
I mean, I didn't know what to do.
我的意思是，我不知道该怎么办。
I had no idea what to do.
我不知道该怎么办。
I walked in the bathroom, and I look in the mirror, and I'm just staring at myself in the mirror.
我走进浴室，看着镜子，我只是盯着镜子里的自己。
And I flipped out and started punching the mirror.
我突然发疯，开始敲打镜子。
So now both my hands are cut, and I'm bleeding all over the place and sitting on the floor crying.
现在我双手都被割伤了，血流满地，坐在地上哭。
And I have no idea why.
我不知道为什么。
You know, when you're that old, and something like that happens, you don't have any idea what to do in any circumstance.
你知道，当你这么老了，发生类似的事情时，你在任何情况下都不知道该怎么做。
Walking across a bridge, looking down.
走过桥，往下看。
Yeah, maybe.
是的，也许吧。
You sit there and think about it for a few minutes.
你坐在那里想了几分钟。
It takes a lot out of you.
这需要你付出很多。
It takes a lot out of your mind, you know?
这需要你花很多心思，你知道吗？
And counseling made it worse for a while.
心理咨询一度让情况变得更糟。
What made it better-- what Glenn says saved them-- was starting the family business-- Chad's business.
是什么让事情变得更好——格伦说拯救了他们——是创办家族企业——查德的企业。
But, I guess, is it healthy?
但是，我想，它健康吗？
Glenn I think everybody grieves in a different way.
格伦 我认为每个人悲伤的方式都不同。
For me, it is, because I'm doing something constructive.
对我来说，是的，因为我正在做一些有建设性的事情。
I was semi-retired and disabled before.
我之前处于半退休状态并且残疾。
I'm still disabled, but I was just vegging.
我仍然是残疾人，但我只是在闲逛。
I was sitting at home feeling sorry for myself and doing nothing.
我坐在家里为自己感到难过，什么也没做。
When the restaurant idea came up from his brother Scott, and we started looking into it rather seriously, and we found the place, it was almost like a breath of fresh air.
当他的兄弟斯科特提出开设餐厅的想法时，我们开始相当认真地研究它，并找到了这个地方，这几乎就像呼吸新鲜空气一样。
It was something we could all do in memory of his brother and have some fun with it.
我们都可以做这样的事情来纪念他的兄弟，并从中获得一些乐趣。
And we have, for seven years.
我们已经这样做了七年了。
Healthy?
健康？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I mean, the psychiatrists say many different things.
我的意思是，精神科医生说了很多不同的话。
People who blithely say "things will get better over time" have never been here.
那些满不在乎地说“随着时间的推移事情会变得更好”的人从来没有来过这里。
Things never get better.
事情永远不会变得更好。
They get a little less immediate.
他们不太直接。
So we work this in memory of him, as a way of keeping him immediate to us.
所以我们这样做是为了纪念他，作为让他与我们保持联系的一种方式。
Nobody forgets.
没有人会忘记。
And we get along this way.
我们就这样相处着。
We get by this way.
我们就这样走过来了。
A whole bunch of us get by this way.
我们一大堆人都是这样走过来的。
In Northampton, where I used to live, there's a couple, and they own a cafe.
在我以前住过的北安普顿，有一对夫妇，他们拥有一家咖啡馆。
And at one point, they had a child who lived 19 days.
有一次，他们生了一个活了 19 天的孩子。
And after they disconnected him from life support, they built a shrine in their restaurant for him.
在他们切断他的生命维持系统后，他们在餐厅里为他建造了一座神殿。
Pictures of him connected to white tubes dotted the walls and beams.
他的照片连接着白色的管子，点缀在墙壁和横梁上。
And his father, a musician, would perform a song at the cafe-- weekly, as I remember it-- comparing his son to a salmon and to the Messiah.
他的父亲是一位音乐家，他会在咖啡馆表演一首歌——我记得每周一次——将他的儿子比作鲑鱼和弥赛亚。
And some of us, at first, though we knew it had to be hard, felt a little embarrassed for them, as though this tragedy had driven them a little crazy.
我们中的一些人，一开始虽然知道这一定很艰难，但还是为他们感到有点尴尬，好像这场悲剧让他们有点疯狂。
I think it's hard for us to know exactly what to do or say when we see public mourning like this, because we see it so rarely.
我认为，当我们看到这样的公众哀悼时，我们很难确切地知道该怎么做或说什么，因为我们很少看到这种情况。
The intensity of it is shocking.
其强度令人震惊。
It's too naked.
这也太赤裸了
And usually, we think that if you hold onto someone after their death this way, you can't live your own life.
通常，我们认为如果你在某人死后仍以这种方式抓住他们，你就无法过自己的生活。
But clearly, you can.
但显然，你可以。
Sean Cole is a producer of our program.
肖恩·科尔是我们节目的制片人。
In the years since we first broadcast this story, Chad's Trading Post closed down.
自从我们第一次广播这个故事以来的几年里，乍得的贸易站关闭了。
The family kept Chad's memory alive in a new restaurant called Chad's Good Table 10 minutes away.
一家人在距离酒店 10 分钟路程的一家名为 Chad's Good Table 的新餐厅里保留了查德的记忆。
Then they sold that restaurant off in 2011.
然后他们在 2011 年卖掉了那家餐厅。
Act Three, Wait, Wait, Don't Film Me.
第三幕，等等，等等，别拍我。
Now this origin story.
现在这个起源故事。
Our colleague at WBEZ and the host of the public radio show Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me, Mr. Peter Sagal, used to be a playwright.
我们在 WBEZ 的同事、公共广播节目《等等，等等，别告诉我》的主持人 Peter Sagal 先生曾经是一位剧作家。
And to give you a sense of the kind of work that he did as a playwright, his most successful play, he says, was about a Holocaust denier and the Jewish attorney who represented that Holocaust denier in court.
他说，为了让你了解他作为剧作家所做的工作，他最成功的戏剧是关于大屠杀否认者和在法庭上代表大屠杀否认者的犹太律师。
And so it was all intellectual arguments and drama, and it involved the Holocaust and questions of the First Amendment law.
因此，这都是知识分子的争论和戏剧，涉及大屠杀和第一修正案的问题。
And it came to the attention of this producer, Lawrence Bender, who is most well known for being Quentin Tarantino's producer.
它引起了制片人劳伦斯·本德的注意，他因担任昆汀·塔伦蒂诺的制片人而闻名。
So he produced, among many other movies, Reservoir Dogs and Pulp Fiction and so on and so forth.
因此，他制作了许多其他电影，例如《落水狗》和《低俗小说》等等。
Back in the '90s, when all this happened, Bender read Peter's play, and liked it, and called him up, and asked Peter if he wanted to write a movie.
早在上世纪 90 年代，当这一切发生时，本德读了彼得的剧本，很喜欢它，并给他打电话，问彼得是否想写一部电影。
And Peter basically had been waiting for this phone call from Hollywood forever.
彼得基本上一直在等待好莱坞打来的电话。
Peter Sagal I think the year of 1992, my annual income was $10,000.
Peter Sagal 我想 1992 年，我的年收入是 10,000 美元。
Yeah.
是的。
This was the phone call that you wait for.
这是您等待的电话。
So after tossing around some different ideas for this film, Lawrence Bender introduces Peter to this woman who he works with, who, at 15, had been an American in Cuba when the Cuban Revolution happened.
因此，在对这部电影提出了一些不同的想法之后，劳伦斯·本德向彼得介绍了这位与他一起工作的女士，她 15 岁，在古巴革命发生时是古巴的美国人。
Maybe there's a film in that.
也许有一部电影。
So Peter start writing this film that's half romance growing up film, half politics, about an American teenage girl in Cuba in the '50s.
于是彼得开始写这部一半是爱情成长片，一半是政治题材的电影，讲述了 50 年代古巴的一个美国少女的故事。
And I didn't know anything about the Cuban Revolution.
我对古巴革命一无所知。
But one of the things I found out was that everybody involved with it was incredibly young.
但我发现的一件事是，参与其中的每个人都非常年轻。
Castro himself was only 29.
卡斯特罗本人年仅29岁。
They were all 17, 18, 19, 20 years old, these guys up in the mountains with him.
他们都是17岁、18岁、19岁、20岁，这些人和他一起在山上。
And one of the things that actually happened was almost as soon as they took over, the Cuban Revolution, these wonderful young Democrats-- you know, freedom-loving rebels from the mountains-- started executing people on television.
实际发生的事情之一几乎是他们一接管古巴革命，这些出色的年轻民主党人——你知道，来自山区的热爱自由的叛乱分子——就开始在电视上处决人民。
And in my original conception, there were two parallel stories.
而在我最初的构想中，有两个平行的故事。
There was Maria, who I called the central character, who had a rebellious, more typically adolescent rebellion going against her own parents.
玛丽亚，我称之为中心人物，她有一种叛逆，更典型的是青春期的叛逆，反对她自己的父母。
And then there was her romantic interest, a character named [?
然后是她的浪漫兴趣，一个名为[？
Josefo, ?] who was a Cuban, and was a sort of a third column rebel underground guy, living and working in Havana to undermine the regime, sometimes through violence.
约瑟夫，？] 是古巴人，是第三纵队地下叛乱分子，在哈瓦那生活和工作，破坏政权，有时通过暴力。
It did.
确实如此。
Ira Glass It did.
艾拉·格拉斯 确实如此。
It finally got made a bit later.
过了一会儿终于做出来了。
And I'm just going to play a clip here from it.
我将在这里播放其中的一个片段。
Did it ever occur to you that that boy might be using you?
你有没有想过那个男孩可能在利用你？
What?
什么？
What?
什么？
Woman A nice American girl--
女人 一个漂亮的美国女孩——
No. Woman --who can be used to get out of here.
不，女人——可以用来离开这里。
Please.
请。
No, that's not true.
不，那不是真的。
Woman You may love dancing with that boy, but there are more important factors here, like your family and your future!
女人 你可能喜欢和那个男孩跳舞，但这里还有更重要的因素，比如你的家庭和你的未来！
Why does it have to be either or?
为什么它必须是或者？
Just because you gave up your passion, why should I?
就因为你放弃了你的热情，我又何必呢？
So that's a clip from the film.
这是电影中的一个片段。
You want to just let people know the title of the film?
你想让人们知道电影的标题吗？
The title of the film is Dirty Dancing 2 , Colon, Havana Nights.
影片名称为《辣身舞2》、《冒号》、《哈瓦那之夜》。
I have to say, I watched the movie last night.
我不得不说，我昨晚看了这部电影。
I watched Dirty Dancing.
我看了《辣身舞》。
There is not a single line of dialogue in that movie that I wrote.
我写的那部电影里没有一句台词。
So how does a film go from political coming-of-age drama to Dirty Dancing 2-- Havana Nights ?
那么，一部电影是如何从政治成长剧变成《辣身舞2——哈瓦那之夜》的呢？
Well, of course, it's an old Hollywood story.
嗯，当然，这是一个古老的好莱坞故事。
Peter writes his film.
彼得写他的电影。
He turns it in.
他把它交了。
They ask him to make it more like-- oh, maybe could it be more like Dirty Dancing, innocent girl with a semi-dangerous guy.
他们要求他让它更像——哦，也许它可以更像辣身舞，无辜的女孩和半危险的男人。
And sometimes I think back on the experience, and I say, you know, I should have said to them, hey, if that's what you want, I'm really not the guy for it.
有时我回想起这段经历，我会说，你知道，我应该对他们说，嘿，如果那是你想要的，我真的不是那个人。
He says each draft got worse and worse.
他说每次选秀都变得越来越糟糕。
Even he didn't like it.
就连他自己也不喜欢。
Finally, it was shelved.
最后，就被搁置了。
Years later, the producer who actually owned the rights to the film Dirty Dancing teamed up with Lawrence Bender to make a sequel, and somebody thought of Peter's old script.
多年后，真正拥有电影《辣身舞》版权的制片人与劳伦斯·本德联手制作了续集，有人想到了彼得的旧剧本。
All the politics of the film got reduced to this one moment where, really, unconnected to anything else in the film, somebody attempts to shoot some unidentified political figure at the climax of the dance contest.
电影中的所有政治都被简化为这一时刻，实际上，与电影中的其他任何内容无关，有人试图在舞蹈比赛的高潮处射杀某个身份不明的政治人物。
And then later, in a moment of obligatory foreshadowing, our couple talks about whether Castro would ever kick out Americans from Cuba.
后来，在必要的铺垫时刻，我们夫妇谈论了卡斯特罗是否会将美国人赶出古巴。
I'm just saying that-- Woman What?
我只是说——女人什么？
That I might have to leave?
我可能不得不离开？
It could happen.
这可能会发生。
Woman But they wouldn't do that.
女人 但他们不会那样做。
Not if the whole idea is to give people their freedom.
如果整个想法是给予人们自由，那就不会了。
Can I ask you what it was like for you to watch the film?
我能问一下您观看这部电影的感受如何吗？
For you to sit in a theater and watch the film?
让你坐在电影院里看电影吗？
It was fine.
很好。
It was really fine, because--
真的很好，因为——
Oh, honey.
哦，亲爱的。
Peter Sagal No, no, no. I mean this.
彼得·萨格尔 不，不，不。我的意思是这个。
Let me put it this way.
让我这样说吧。
Before I got that call, this experience had been a failure.
在我接到那个电话之前，这次经历是失败的。
I mean, I remember at that time just lying in bed going, well, I had my shot and I blew it.
我的意思是，我记得当时只是躺在床上想，好吧，我有我的机会，但我失败了。
All I ever wanted was a shot, and I got my shot, and it failed.
我想要的只是一次机会，我成功了，但失败了。
I did a bad job.
我做得很糟糕。
And so then when I got the phone call, it's like, oh, it's going to be made, and it's going to be Dirty Dancing 2, that's a happy ending.
所以当我接到电话时，就好像，哦，这部电影要拍了，而且是《辣身舞 2》，这是一个幸福的结局。
That's a much better ending than the ending I thought I had, which was that it was just a disaster.
这比我想象的结局要好得多，我以为这只是一场灾难。
Act Four, Bill Clinton's Seven-Year-Old Brother.
第四幕，比尔·克林顿七岁的弟弟。
So reporter Mary Wiltenburg spent a year writing about two boys-- brothers who were born in a Tanzanian refugee camp, and then resettled in Georgia in 2006.
因此，记者玛丽·威尔滕伯格 (Mary Wiltenburg) 花了一年的时间来报道两个男孩的故事，他们是出生在坦桑尼亚难民营的兄弟，然后于 2006 年在格鲁吉亚重新定居。
Many of her stories are focused on the older brother, nine-year-old Bill Clinton Hadam.
她的许多故事都集中在九岁的哥哥比尔·克林顿·哈达姆身上。
His dad is a big fan of the former president.
他的父亲是前总统的忠实粉丝。
After a tough first year in the United States, Bill seemed to have settled in.
在美国度过了艰难的第一年之后，比尔似乎已经适应了。
But his little brother Igey was still struggling to understand his own origin story-- to get his seven-year-old brain around who he was and where he came from.
但他的弟弟伊吉仍在努力理解他自己的起源故事——让他七岁的大脑了解他是谁以及他来自哪里。
At this point, Mary has spent so much time with these two boys that she's more than a reporter.
此时，玛丽已经和这两个男孩一起度过了很多时间，她不仅仅是一名记者。
She's more like a member of the family.
她更像是这个家庭的一员。
Anyway, here's Mary.
无论如何，这是玛丽。
Igey calls me on the phone almost every day.
Igey 几乎每天都给我打电话。
Sometimes he leaves messages.
有时他会留言。
First unheard message.
第一条闻所未闻的消息。
Igey Hi!
伊吉嗨！
Hello, Mary.
你好，玛丽。
This is me, Igey, and the good news is Bill is going to summer school, and I'm not going to summer school.
这就是我，Igey，好消息是比尔要去参加暑期学校，而我不去参加暑期学校。
OK, this is me, Igey.
好吧，这就是我，伊吉。
OK, bye.
好的，再见。
In between the messages, we have long chats.
在消息之间，我们进行了长时间的交谈。
I tape most of our conversations, because I'm writing these articles about him and his family.
我录下了我们的大部分谈话，因为我正在写这些关于他和他的家人的文章。
And the conversations always seem to start with one of two questions.
谈话似乎总是以两个问题之一开始。
When can I come to your house, or when are you coming to my house?
我什么时候可以去你家，或者你什么时候来我家？
Oh, I'm going to be there soon.
哦，我很快就会到那里。
I'm in the car right now driving to you, and there's a little bit of traffic.
我现在正在开车去你那里，路上有点堵车。
You're driving now?
你现在开车吗？
Mary Wiltenburg I'm driving right now.
玛丽·威尔滕伯格 我现在正在开车。
I am, yes.
我是，是的。
So you know I'm crazy about this kid.
所以你知道我对这个孩子很着迷。
He's sweet, nosy, funny.
他很可爱、爱管闲事、很有趣。
He's been to my house a bunch since I started doing these stories.
自从我开始写这些故事以来，他经常来我家。
But the first time he came over, six months ago, he announced to me and my husband and his brother, Bill Clinton, that from now on, the first grader formerly known as Igey, would be going by his middle name, John.
但六个月前，他第一次过来时，他向我、我的丈夫和他的兄弟比尔·克林顿宣布，从现在开始，以前叫伊吉的一年级学生将使用他的中间名约翰。
I'd already known something was up, because that afternoon, my husband took Igey to the park.
我已经知道出事了，因为那天下午，我丈夫带伊吉去公园。
Igey was up on the jungle gym when a girl about the same age called over from the swingset and asked his name.
伊吉正在攀登架上，这时一个与他年龄相仿的女孩在秋千上打来电话，问他叫什么名字。
And he got all weird and wouldn't answer her.
他变得很奇怪，不回答她。
She thought he hadn't heard her, so she hopped off the swing, came over to the jungle gym, and asked him again, what's your name?
她以为他没有听到她说话，于是她跳下秋千，来到攀登架，又问他，你叫什么名字？
Igey got this kind of cornered look and said, I don't know my name.
Igey 表情一脸茫然，说道：“我不知道我的名字。”
But by later that night, he seemed to have made a decision.
但到了那天晚上，他似乎已经做出了决定。
He was now John.
他现在是约翰。
In our living room, he struggled to type his new name into a video game.
在我们的客厅里，他努力在电子游戏中输入他的新名字。
J-O-- wait, was it J or G?
J-O--等等，是 J 还是 G？
Then Bill offered to help.
然后比尔主动提出提供帮助。
Igey said, I know how to spell my own name.
Igey说，我知道怎么拼写我自己的名字。
Igey picked up English first and best of anyone in his family, but his teachers say Igey's more confused about where he's from and who he is than other seven year olds they've seen.
伊吉是家里最先学会英语的人，也是学得最好的，但他的老师说，伊吉比他们见过的其他七岁孩子更不知道自己来自哪里、自己是谁。
And the charter school Igey and Bill attend is about half refugees.
伊吉和比尔就读的特许学校约有一半是难民。
So you'd think they'd see a lot of this.
所以你会认为他们会看到很多这样的事情。
Teachers say no. Little kids usually realize pretty fast that most people who ask "where are you from," they don't want the whole story.
老师们说不。小孩子通常很快就会意识到，大多数问“你来自哪里”的人，他们并不想要整个故事。
And it doesn't really matter if you say you're from Burma, where your parents were from, or Thailand, where you lived in the camp.
如果你说你来自缅甸（你父母来自那里），或者来自泰国（你住在难民营里），这并不重要。
In first grade, you just pick one and get on with your day.
在一年级，你只需选择一个并继续你的一天。
But for Igey, where are you from has never felt that simple.
但对于 Igey 来说，你来自哪里从来没有这么简单过。
All winter, he seemed to be revising his story.
整个冬天，他似乎都在修改自己的故事。
First, he denied the camp he'd lived in his whole life.
首先，他否认了他一生都生活过的集中营。
Hated the word refugee.
讨厌难民这个词。
Then he started saying he wasn't from Congo, his nationality, or Tanzania, where he was born, or Africa at all.
然后他开始说他不是来自刚果（他的国籍），也不是他的出生地坦桑尼亚，或者根本不是非洲。
He'd say, I'm from here, or America.
他会说，我来自这里，或者来自美国。
Watching TV, he'd point to rich white kids and say, that's me.
看电视时，他会指着富有的白人孩子说，那就是我。
At home, he threw tantrums.
在家里，他就发脾气。
At school, he sometimes seemed almost catatonic.
在学校里，他有时显得近乎紧张症。
He wouldn't answer questions, wouldn't meet people's eyes.
他不回答问题，不看别人的眼睛。
His parents, his teachers, everyone felt helpless.
他的父母，他的老师，每个人都感到无助。
They didn't know what set him off or how to reach him.
他们不知道是什么让他离开，也不知道如何联系他。
And he seemed to regress.
他似乎退步了。
If he were sitting on the couch, he'd snuggle up or take my hand.
如果他坐在沙发上，他会依偎着我或握住我的手。
The slightest things made him cry.
最轻微的事情都会让他哭泣。
He seemed lost.
他似乎迷失了方向。
One night on the phone, I reminded him where he was born-- in Tanzania.
一天晚上，我在电话里提醒他他出生在哪里——坦桑尼亚。
I'm from Tanzania, he said?
我来自坦桑尼亚，他说？
I'm from Tanzania?
我来自坦桑尼亚？
Mary Wiltenburg Uh-huh.
玛丽·威尔滕伯格 嗯。
I am?
我是？
Mary Wiltenburg Well, that's where you were born.
玛丽·威尔滕伯格 嗯，那是你出生的地方。
No!
不！
But where am I from?
但我从哪里来？
Mary Wiltenburg Well, you were born in Tanzania, and you dad came from Congo.
玛丽·威尔滕伯格 好吧，你出生在坦桑尼亚，你爸爸来自刚果。
I was?
我是？
Mary Wiltenburg And your mom came from Rwanda.
玛丽·威尔滕伯格 你的妈妈来自卢旺达。
So your family has a lot of places where you're from.
所以你的家人有很多你来自的地方。
Igey's parents didn't mind calling him John.
伊吉的父母不介意叫他约翰。
They were just kind of puzzled.
他们只是有点困惑。
The idea that you could hate your name seemed like one more baffling thing about America.
对于美国来说，你可能会讨厌自己的名字，这似乎是一件更令人困惑的事情。
They just had no idea what Igey was going through, and it made Igey feel more distant from them.
他们只是不知道Igey正在经历什么，这让Igey感觉与他们更加疏远。
A while back, I was riding with Igey and his parents in their car when he said to me, I don't want to live with my mom.
不久前，我和 Igey 以及他的父母一起骑车，当时他对我说，我不想和妈妈住在一起。
I thought it was a setup for one of his jokes.
我以为这是他的一个笑话的安排。
So I said, you don't want to live with your mom?
我就说，你不想和你妈妈一起住吗？
Why?
为什么？
He said, I want to live with you.
他说，我想和你住在一起。
I said, no, you don't want to live with me.
我说，不，你不想和我住在一起。
But then Igey got all serious and said, but what if I forget my language?
但随后 Igey 严肃地说，但是如果我忘记了我的语言怎么办？
I said, what do you mean?
我说，你什么意思？
And he said, if I forget my language, I can't live with them, because they won't understand me.
他说，如果我忘记了我的语言，我就无法和他们一起生活，因为他们不会理解我。
Later, on the phone, we talked about what it's like for him talking with his mom.
后来，在电话里，我们谈论了他和他妈妈说话的感觉。
When you speak English, does she understand you?
当你说英语时，她听得懂吗？
No. Mary Wiltenburg So maybe you're learning faster, huh?
不。 Mary Wiltenburg 那么也许你学得更快了，是吧？
I just forget it right now.
我现在就忘记了。
Mary Wiltenburg Swahili?
玛丽·威尔滕伯格·斯瓦希里语？
Yes.
是的。
Mary Wiltenburg Like, what do you forget?
玛丽·威尔滕伯格 就像，你忘记了什么？
Everything.
一切。
Mary Wiltenburg And then at some point this spring, Igey just went back to being Igey.
玛丽·威尔滕伯格 然后在今年春天的某个时候，伊吉又变回了伊吉。
A lot of things happened for him at once.
他一下子发生了很多事情。
His green card arrived.
他的绿卡到了。
His reading took off.
他的阅读量开始腾飞。
It took me a while to notice that John had vanished.
过了一会儿我才注意到约翰已经消失了。
His teachers don't remember, either, exactly when he stopped correcting them.
他的老师也不记得他什么时候停止纠正他们的。
But by the last month of school, he was taking his turn in the semicircle with everyone else.
但到了学校的最后一个月，他就和其他人一起绕着半圆转了。
No drama.
没有戏剧。
Just, my name is Igey, and I'm from Congo.
只是，我叫 Igey，来自刚果。
And suddenly, he was volunteering details about his life in the camp.
突然间，他主动讲述了自己在集中营的生活细节。
Games he played, his mud brick house.
他玩的游戏，他的泥砖房。
Igey seemed to be making peace with his past and his name.
伊吉似乎正在接受他的过去和他的名字。
And he moved on to other burning seven-year-old questions.
然后他继续讨论其他七年前的紧迫问题。
What's bingo night mean?
宾果之夜是什么意思？
Mary Wiltenburg Oh!
玛丽·威尔滕伯格哦！
[LAUGHING] You know how you play bingo at school?
[笑]你知道在学校怎么玩宾果游戏吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Mary Wiltenburg It's like a night when a bunch of adults get together.
玛丽·威尔滕伯格 这就像一群成年人聚在一起的夜晚。
Maybe kids, too.
也许孩子们也是如此。
And they play a game that's like that, only with numbers instead of words.
他们玩类似的游戏，只是用数字而不是文字。
OK.
好的。
I'm waiting for you, OK?
我在等你，好吗？
Mary Wiltenburg OK.
玛丽·威尔滕伯格 好的。
I'll see you soon.
我很快就会见到你。
And just when it seemed like Igey had finally accepted his own name, the other shoe dropped.
就在伊吉似乎终于接受了自己的名字时，另一只鞋掉了下来。
The last week of school, Igey asked me, "Um, what does gay mean?" I told him gay can mean happy, or it could mean when a man loves another man.
在学校的最后一周，伊吉问我，“嗯，同性恋是什么意思？”我告诉他同性恋可以意味着快乐，也可以意味着一个男人爱另一个男人。
Igey started sobbing.
伊吉开始抽泣。
We were in his kitchen, and he just collapsed against the fridge.
我们在他的厨房里，他就倒在冰箱上。
Finally, he choked out what was wrong, and it turned out that some second graders had been taunting him.
最后他哽咽出了什么问题，原来是一些二年级的学生一直在嘲笑他。
"Igey, you're gay." And he told them, "That's not a word."
“伊吉，你是同性恋。”他告诉他们：“这不是一个词。”
It was just one more strike against that name.
这只是对这个名字的又一次打击。
But for now, John hasn't reappeared.
但现在，约翰还没有再次出现。
Igey's sticking with Igey.
Igey 和 Igey 在一起。
The other day, when we were riding in the car, I said some offhand thing about needing to call my mom.
有一天，当我们坐车时，我随口说了一些话，说需要给妈妈打电话。
Igey said, "You have a mom?" I said, "Yeah, of course." He could not believe it.
伊吉说：“你有妈妈吗？”我说：“是的，当然。”他简直不敢相信。
How had he not known about this before?
他以前怎么不知道这件事？
This year, it's been hard enough for Igey to put together his own story.
今年，伊吉要整理自己的故事已经够困难的了。
The idea that I-- wait, everybody-- comes from somewhere?
我——等等，大家——的想法来自某个地方？
It kind of blew his mind.
这有点让他大吃一惊。
Mary Wiltenburg.
玛丽·威尔滕伯格。
She wrote about Igey, Bill Clinton, and their family for the Christian Science Monitor.
她为《基督教科学箴言报》撰写了有关伊吉、比尔·克林顿及其家人的文章。
You can read more of her reporting about them at littlebillclinton.csmonitor.com.
您可以在littlebillclinton.csmonitor.com 上阅读她有关这些事件的更多报道。
Well, our program was produced today by Lisa Pollak and myself, with Alex Blumberg, Sean Cole, Jane Feltes, Sarah Koenig, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
好吧，我们今天的节目是由 Lisa Pollak 和我本人以及 Alex Blumberg、Sean Cole、Jane Feltes、Sarah Koenig、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 制作的。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Production help from JP Dukes.
JP Dukes 提供制作帮助。
Seth Lind is our operations director.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的运营总监。
Emily Condon's our production manager.
艾米丽·康登是我们的生产经理。
Elise Bergerson's our office manager.
埃莉斯·伯格森是我们的办公室经理。
Adrianne Mathiowetz runs the website.
阿德琳娜·马修韦茨 (Adrianne Mathiowetz) 负责运营该网站。
Music help from Jessica Hopper.
杰西卡·霍珀的音乐帮助。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
Thanks today to Bob [?
今天感谢鲍勃 [?
Folkenflik ?], Matt Holtzman, and Hank Rosenfeld.
福尔肯弗利克？]、马特·霍尔茨曼和汉克·罗森菲尔德。
Pino Audia's research paper about garages and entrepreneurs that I talked about at the beginning of the show was done with Christopher Rider.
我在节目开始时谈到的皮诺·奥迪亚（Pino Audia）关于车库和企业家的研究论文是与克里斯托弗·赖德（Christopher Rider）合作完成的。
Dan Heath, who I also talked to at the top of the show, is the co-author of the book Made to Stick-- Why Some Ideas Survive and Others Die.
丹·希思 (Dan Heath) 是《Made to Stick——为什么有些想法能生存而另一些想法会消亡》一书的合著者，我也在节目顶部与之交谈过。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Torey Malatia, who hears himself quoted in these credits every single week and says--
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人托里·马拉蒂亚 (Torey Malatia)，他每周都会在这些致谢词中听到自己被引用，并说——
I never said that.
我从来没有这么说过。
I would never say that.
我永远不会这么说。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。