531: Got Your Back - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #531 | July 25, 2014 531: Got Your Back Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 531 集 | 2014 年 7 月 25 日 531：得到你的支持 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass For years, David liked playing this not so well-known board game, called Diplomacy, where he would get to do things and act in ways that he would never do in his regular life.
序言 Ira Glass 多年来，David 喜欢玩这款不太出名的棋盘游戏，名为“外交”，在游戏中他可以做一些他在日常生活中永远不会做的事情和行为。
He describes the game as a cross between Risk, poker, and the television show, Survivor.
他将这款游戏描述为“风险”、扑克和电视节目“幸存者”的结合体。
Basically, there's a map of Europe, you're assigned a country, and you're trying to take over the world.
基本上，有一张欧洲地图，你被分配了一个国家，而你正试图占领世界。
There's no dice.
没有骰子。
There's no element of chance.
不存在任何偶然的因素。
And so is it about, like, bluffing and alliances, and stuff?
那么它是关于虚张声势和联盟之类的吗？
Yeah.
是的。
There's a lot.
有很多。
Alliances are key to the game, because you play with seven players.
联盟是游戏的关键，因为你与七名玩家一起玩。
The only way for anybody to sort of overtake anyone else is for two people to team up against one.
任何人想要超越任何人的唯一方法就是两个人联手对抗一个人。
Team up and attack, that is.
组队进攻，就是这样。
Before each turn, there's 15 minutes where everybody negotiates with everybody else about who's going to work with whom.
在每次轮流之前，每个人都会有 15 分钟的时间与其他人协商谁将与谁合作。
And then everybody goes off and writes down on pieces of paper who it is that they're going to attack.
然后每个人都开始在纸上写下他们要攻击的人。
And then all the papers are read out loud, and everybody finds out who is aligned with who and who double-crossed whom.
然后所有的报纸都会被大声朗读出来，每个人都会发现谁与谁结盟，谁出卖了谁。
People stab each other in the back so much in this game, they don't even take the time to say the full phrase-- "stabbed in the back." Everybody just calls it "stabbing."
在这个游戏中，人们互相背后捅刀子的次数太多了，他们甚至没有花时间说出完整的短语——“背后捅刀子”。大家都管它叫“刺伤”。
David played with a group of guys, his buddies, always by email.
大卫总是通过电子邮件与一群人（他的好友）一起玩。
Once a week, they would email each other the next moves, which meant that the game would take months.
每周一次，他们会通过电子邮件互相发送下一步行动，这意味着游戏需要几个月的时间。
David thought he knew what he was doing, but his friends wondered about him sometimes.
大卫认为他知道自己在做什么，但他的朋友有时对他感到好奇。
You know, there was a time when I made, like, a pornographic Photoshop of this one player with his phone number and his social security number on it, and I told him that I was going to post it on the internet if he didn't cooperate with me.
你知道，有一段时间，我给这个球员做了一张色情 Photoshop，上面有他的电话号码和社会安全号码，我告诉他，如果他不与我合作，我会把它发布到互联网上。
And you know, I think that some of the people in the game felt like that was-- that had crossed the line, like, that was out of bounds.
你知道，我认为游戏中的一些人感觉那是——那已经越界了，那是出界了。
Wait.
等待。
You took Photoshop, and you basically took his head, or face, and put it into a porno image with his social security number and--
你用Photoshop，基本上拍下了他的头或脸，然后将其与他的社会安全号码一起放入色情图片中，然后--
--his phone number, and I think I put where he worked.
——他的电话号码，我想我记下了他工作的地方。
And you threatened to put that online.
你威胁要把它放到网上。
And you were serious?
你是认真的吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I figured it would work, so I didn't know if I was bluffing or not.
我认为这会起作用，所以我不知道我是否在虚张声势。
Wait, and so the people who you were playing with thought that that crossed the line.
等等，所以和你一起玩的人认为这越界了。
Why doesn't that cross the line?
为什么不越界呢？
It's definitely crossing the line.
这绝对是越界了。
But the thing about diplomacy, I think, is kind of sick is that people will tell you nothing is out of bounds.
但我认为，外交的一个问题是，人们会告诉你没有什么是越界的。
Well, maybe not nothing.
好吧，也许并不是什么都没有。
But it's a game with a certain amount of yelling and bullying and psychological manipulation.
但这是一个带有一定程度的叫喊、欺凌和心理操纵的游戏。
And the boundary line is not always so clear on what you should be doing.
而且你应该做什么的界限并不总是那么清晰。
Another time that it seemed like David might not be perceiving where that line is the same way that his opponents did.
另一次，大卫似乎没有像他的对手那样察觉到这条线的位置。
It came at the very first game that he played with other people, in person-- like not on email.
这是他亲自与其他人一起玩的第一场游戏，而不是通过电子邮件。
He had wanted to play, in person, for years, but his buddies weren't into that.
多年来，他一直想亲自参加比赛，但他的伙伴们并不热衷于此。
And so finally he got his chance when a friend invited him to an informal tournament in Connecticut.
当一位朋友邀请他参加康涅狄格州的一场非正式锦标赛时，他终于得到了机会。
And I was sure that I would love it.
我确信我会喜欢它。
And I rode out there with him.
我和他一起骑车出去。
It was in this weird mansion on the coast of Connecticut.
那是在康涅狄格州海岸的一座奇怪的豪宅里。
And I don't know, there might have been--
我不知道，可能有——
Of course it was.
当然是。
David Hill There might have been like 50 people there, and the people were like camped out in the yard.
David Hill 那里可能有大约 50 个人，人们就像在院子里露营一样。
Mhm.
嗯。
It was at midnight, and the wind was howling, and the lightning was striking.
时值半夜，狂风呼啸，电闪雷鸣。
And--
还有——
It was, like, on a cliff overlooking-- it was like--
它就像在悬崖上俯瞰——就像——
Is this true?
这是真的吗？
David Hill This is true.
大卫·希尔 这是事实。
It was just some sort of rich family that loved Diplomacy.
那只是一些热爱外交的富裕家庭。
And so they would host people at their home.
所以他们会在家里接待人们。
It was definitely a weird scene.
这绝对是一个奇怪的场景。
It was like-- it was this really fancy house, and people all, sort of-- there were boards all over the house and out in the yard.
就好像——这是一座非常漂亮的房子，所有人，有点——房子里和院子里到处都是木板。
People were all, sort of, playing Diplomacy.
人们都在玩外交游戏。
And the first game that I played, I was really digging it.
我玩的第一款游戏，我真的很喜欢它。
You know, I thought, this feels good, and I feel like I can hang with these guys, and I was playing well and totally didn't feel out of my element.
你知道，我想，这感觉很好，我觉得我可以和这些家伙一起相处，而且我打得很好，完全没有感觉不适合我。
Did you win?
你赢了吗？
David Hill I did not win.
大卫希尔我没有赢。
In fact, I stabbed a guy.
事实上，我刺伤了一个人。
Stabbed a guy-- he double-crossed him.
刺伤了一个人——他出卖了他。
They were allies, but then David saw a way to take some of his territories, and he teamed up with a different guy against him.
他们是盟友，但后来大卫发现了一种夺取他的一些领土的方法，他与另一个人联手对抗他。
And after the move was over, the guy that I stabbed wanted to talk to me.
搬家结束后，被我刺伤的那个人想跟我说话。
And he pulled me aside, and he says, why did you do that?
他把我拉到一边，说，你为什么这么做？
And I was, like, I'm sorry, man.
我当时就想，对不起，伙计。
I didn't really think that I could work with you.
我真的没想到我能和你一起工作。
I wanted to work with this other guy.
我想和另一个人一起工作。
And he goes, you can go fuck yourself.
他说，你可以去他妈的了。
And he puts his finger in my face.
他把手指放在我脸上。
And I said, what?
我说，什么？
And he storms over to the board and, like, knocks his stuff over and says, I quit.
然后他冲向董事会，把他的东西打翻了，然后说，我辞职了。
I'm done with this asshole.
我和这个混蛋受够了。
Fuck this guy.
操这个家伙。
And he is storming around the house, making this big scene.
他在房子里冲来冲去，制造了这么大的场面。
Everybody in the tournament is, like, watching us.
锦标赛中的每个人都在看着我们。
And I'm freaking out.
我吓坏了。
I'm like, is this serious?
我想，这件事严重吗？
Is he serious about this?
他是认真的吗？
And he's like, this fucking guy, and he's pointing at me and yelling.
他就像，这个该死的家伙，他指着我大喊大叫。
And then I watch him go around the house to every board, and like, tell the story of what just happened to his friends.
然后我看着他在房子里走遍每块木板，然后讲述刚刚发生在他朋友身上的故事。
And like, I can see him pointing at me.
就像，我可以看到他指着我。
I asked the people on the board-- I said, I, don't understand what's going on, you know?
我问董事会里的人——我说，我不明白发生了什么，你知道吗？
Why is he doing this?
他为什么要这么做？
I don't get what this is about.
我不明白这是在说什么。
Like, all I did was stab him.
就像，我所做的只是刺伤了他。
And they're like, uh, you know, you were a little bit out of line.
他们就像，呃，你知道，你有点不合规矩。
You were a little bit rude.
你有点粗鲁。
Or maybe he had not been rude.
或者也许他并没有粗鲁。
Maybe he did nothing wrong.
或许他并没有做错什么。
Maybe this guy was just pretending to be mad to mess with David's head, pretending to be a hothead, because that image could be useful with all of the other opponents in the coming rounds of the tournament.
也许这家伙只是假装生气，想搞乱大卫的头脑，假装是一个性急的人，因为这个形象在接下来的比赛中对所有其他对手可能都有用。
David had no idea.
大卫不知道。
So I'm like looking around the room, and I'm realizing, I don't know anybody here.
所以我环顾房间，然后我意识到，这里我一个人都不认识。
Like, I really felt at that point like I couldn't trust anybody.
就像，我当时真的觉得我不能相信任何人。
Then the people in my game who were throwing their arm around me, and be like-- he's just messing with your head, don't worry, come over here and talk to me.
然后我的游戏中那些用手臂搂着我的人就像——他只是在搞乱你的头脑，别担心，过来和我说话。
You know, I was like-- I don't know how to process this.
你知道，我当时想——我不知道如何处理这个问题。
And I also felt like-- this is too intense.
我也觉得——这太激烈了。
I can't handle this, and I feel so uncomfortable.
我受不了这个，我感觉很不舒服。
So I just got up and left and left the tournament.
所以我就起身离开并离开了比赛。
You left?
你走了吗？
David Hill Yeah.
大卫·希尔 是的。
And I never played Diplomacy again after that.
从那以后我就再也没玩过《外交》了。
Years passed.
几年过去了。
And then he saw that the world Diplomacy championship was going to be in the United States this year.
然后他看到今年的世界外交锦标赛将在美国举行。
And he thought, maybe he would try to play it one more time and record it for our program.
他想，也许他会尝试再播放一次并为我们的节目录制它。
David's a reporter.
大卫是一名记者。
His full name is David Hill.
他的全名是大卫·希尔。
He usually writes about sports for the website Grantland.
他通常为 Grantland 网站撰写有关体育的文章。
And he vowed that this time, playing Diplomacy was going to be different.
他发誓，这一次，玩《外交》将会有所不同。
He knew that he needed a new approach to the game, right, because he couldn't even figure out why other players were reacting to his moves the way that they were.
他知道他需要一种新的游戏方法，对吧，因为他甚至无法弄清楚为什么其他玩家会对他的举动做出这样的反应。
Like, this was a game where you're supposed to stab people in the back, but the way that he was doing it, people were just freaking out.
就像，这是一款你应该在背后捅人的游戏，但他这样做的方式，人们只是吓坏了。
He lacked diplomacy.
他缺乏外交手腕。
Well, this time, I figured what I really needed was somebody who could teach me tactics, like diplomatic tactics-- you know, the tactics of diplomacy-- so that I could go into the game confident that I was playing correctly, that I wasn't making any mistakes.
好吧，这一次，我想我真正需要的是有人可以教我战术，比如外交战术——你知道，外交战术——这样我就可以在比赛中自信地相信自己玩得正确，没有犯任何错误。
So I found somebody who could sort of be my coach.
所以我找到了一个可以当我教练的人。
And that person was not a gamer.
而且那个人并不是游戏玩家。
That person was a diplomat, an actual real life diplomat-- in fact, one that you may have heard of, Dennis Ross, probably best known as President Clinton's Middle East envoy.
那个人是一位外交官，一位现实生活中的外交官——事实上，你可能听说过丹尼斯·罗斯，他最出名的身份可能是克林顿总统的中东特使。
Dennis Ross brokered the Oslo II Accord.
丹尼斯·罗斯促成了奥斯陆二世协议。
He also helped the George H.W.
他还帮助乔治·H·W·布什 (George H.W.
Bush administration on German reunification back when the wall came down.
柏林墙倒塌时布什政府对德国统一的看法。
He's been an advisor to President Obama.
他曾担任奥巴马总统的顾问。
And in case you're wondering how this man, who's not just brokered international deals, but done it in some of the most contentious conflicts in the world, responded when he was asked to use his expertise and give advice to somebody at the world championship for the board game Diplomacy, well, once it was explained to him what the board game is, his answer was-- sure, sounds like fun.
如果你想知道这个人，他不仅促成了国际交易，而且在世界上一些最具争议性的冲突中做到了这一点，当他被要求利用自己的专业知识，为棋盘游戏外交世界锦标赛上的某人提供建议时，他是如何回应的，那么，一旦向他解释了棋盘游戏是什么，他的答案是——当然，听起来很有趣。
Nice to meet you.
很高兴见到你。
David Hill.
大卫·希尔.
Dennis Ross Hi, David.
丹尼斯·罗斯 你好，大卫。
Dennis Ross, nice to see you.
丹尼斯·罗斯，很高兴见到你。
So did that feel amazing to have him with you?
那么他和你在一起感觉很棒吗？
Yeah.
是的。
It definitely felt amazing.
这绝对感觉棒极了。
You know, I felt like I'm back, and this time, I'm going to win, you know, because this time I got the big guns.
你知道，我感觉我回来了，这一次，我会赢，你知道，因为这一次我拿到了大枪。
Ambassador Ross apparently took to the game immediately.
罗斯大使显然立即就加入了这场游戏。
And we have the story of what happened when David brought his ringer to the fight, when he brought a professional to an amateur match-up.
我们有一个故事，讲述了当大卫带着他的铃声参加战斗时，当他带着一位职业选手参加一场业余比赛时所发生的事情。
Today, on our program, stories of trying to figure out who has your back and who's looking to stab you in the back and trying to sort out one from the other.
今天，在我们的节目中，我们讲述了一些故事，讲述了试图弄清楚谁在支持你，谁在背后捅你一刀，并试图找出其中一个的故事。
Also, you know, there all the people who want to have your back, who try to have your back, but you are probably making a mistake to depend on them.
而且，你知道，有很多人想要支持你，他们试图支持你，但你可能会犯一个错误，依赖他们。
We talk about that, too.
我们也谈论这个。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Absolutely Stabulous.
绝对稳定。
All right.
好的。
So you have this set up, right.
所以你已经设置好了，对吧。
David Hill takes Ambassador Dennis Ross to help him win at a board game tournament.
大卫·希尔 (David Hill) 邀请大使丹尼斯·罗斯 (Dennis Ross) 帮助他在棋盘游戏锦标赛中获胜。
Here is David.
这是大卫。
The world championship of Diplomacy brought together almost 90 top Diplomacy players from eight different countries.
本届外交世界锦标赛汇聚了来自8个不同国家的近90名顶尖外交选手。
Most of them were middle aged men.
其中大部分是中年男子。
All of them were nerds-- and not the Chris Hardwick, Olivia Munn, kind of nerd, homespun nerds-- the real deal-- nerds from all over the world, in a prototypical nerd setting, a basement-- in this case, the dim basement of a dorm at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill.
他们都是书呆子——不是克里斯·哈德威克、奥立薇娅·穆恩那样的书呆子，朴素的书呆子——真正的书呆子——来自世界各地的书呆子，在典型的书呆子环境中，地下室——在这个例子中，是北卡罗来纳大学教堂山分校宿舍的昏暗地下室。
I strutted into that dorm with diplomat Dennis Ross by my side.
我大步走进宿舍，外交官丹尼斯·罗斯在我身边。
I was worried about intimidating the other players.
我担心会吓到其他玩家。
I didn't need to worry.
我不需要担心。
Nobody was scared-- amused maybe.
没有人害怕——也许还觉得好笑。
Only one person in this room had counseled four presidents, and everyone's reaction was-- meh.
这个房间里只有一个人给四位总统提供过咨询，而每个人的反应都是——嗯。
In fact, the tournament director felt he had to rig the game in our favor by assigning me Russia, the strongest of the seven countries on the board.
事实上，赛事总监觉得他必须让比赛对我们有利，让我指派俄罗斯，这是七个国家中最强的。
When they announced the assignments, people actually laughed.
当他们宣布任务时，人们真的笑了。
[LAUGHTER] Man Diplomacy Announcer So what I want you to do--
[笑声] 男士外交播音员 那么我想让你做什么——
I quickly lost my confidence.
我很快就失去了信心。
Who was I kidding?
我开谁玩笑了？
I was up against the best in the world, and I would only had an ambassador in my corner for the first game on the first day of a three day tournament.
我面对的是世界上最好的选手，在为期三天的锦标赛的第一天，我只会有一位大使在我的角落里进行第一场比赛。
So I decided all I wanted to do was to survive to the end of this game, to know that I could do this.
所以我决定我想做的就是活到游戏结束，知道我能做到这一点。
I was freaked out.
我吓坏了。
But Dennis Ross was unfazed.
但丹尼斯·罗斯并不担心。
If you play with such anxiety, everybody is going to know it.
如果你带着这样的焦虑打球，每个人都会知道的。
Yeah.
是的。
Dennis Ross They're going to read it.
丹尼斯·罗斯 他们会读的。
You know, when I was negotiating, I could read the body language.
你知道，当我谈判时，我可以读懂肢体语言。
I could tell if someone was really nervous.
我可以看出有人是否真的紧张。
I once had, in one negotiation, I explained to somebody what it is we needed.
我曾经在一次谈判中向某人解释过我们需要什么。
And it was clearly way beyond what they thought we were going to go for.
这显然远远超出了他们认为我们要追求的目标。
And my first impulse was looking at this person-- this [INAUDIBLE] should never play poker.
我的第一个冲动就是看着这个人——这个[听不清]永远不应该玩扑克。
I mean, he literally blanched.
我的意思是，他真的脸色变白了。
So you know, the other thing is you've got to be cool.
所以你知道，另一件事是你必须保持冷静。
Got it.
知道了。
Got to have a poker face, convey confidence, even if I don't feel it.
必须摆出一副扑克脸，表现出自信，即使我感觉不到。
Right.
正确的。
David Hill Seven of us gathered around the board.
大卫·希尔 我们七个人聚集在董事会周围。
We nodded brief hellos, put 15 minutes on the clock, and bam-- time to negotiate.
我们点了点头，简短地打了个招呼，把时钟上的时间定为 15 分钟，然后，谈判时间到了。
Since I was big bad Russia, I was instantly the most popular person in the room.
由于我是俄罗斯大佬，我立即成为房间里最受欢迎的人。
All the other players started, well, flirting with me.
所有其他玩家都开始跟我调情。
Are you figuring out the swing [INAUDIBLE].
您正在弄清楚挥杆吗[听不清]。
A little bit, little bit.
一点点，一点点。
David Hill That was Austria.
大卫·希尔 那是奥地利。
Next was Germany.
接下来是德国。
So if you wanted to work with me against England next year, I'd be very happy to help you by cutting them off, say, from Denmark, or whatever else it is that you need.
因此，如果你明年想和我一起对抗英格兰队，我会很乐意帮助你，切断他们的联系，比如说，与丹麦的联系，或者你需要的任何其他东西。
Italy.
意大利。
Italy What I want to do is get into a three on one fight.
意大利 我想做的是进行三对一的战斗。
Right?
正确的？
I want to, you and me, and either Turkey or Austria.
我想要，你和我，还有土耳其或奥地利。
OK.
好的。
And Turkey.
还有土耳其。
Russia and Turkey often ally with each other in this game.
俄罗斯和土耳其在这场比赛中经常结盟。
The shorthand for their alliance is RT.
他们联盟的简写是RT。
Here's Turkey.
这里是土耳其。
RT is probably my favorite alliance on the board.
RT 可能是棋盘上我最喜欢的联盟。
OK.
好的。
Turkey I mean, no matter what happens, you know, when I start with the two way, I'm sticking with you.
土耳其，我的意思是，无论发生什么，你知道，当我从两条路开始时，我都会坚持你。
Right.
正确的。
But then I am vulnerable if you cooperate with Austria, then, right?
但如果你和奥地利合作的话我就会很脆弱，对吗？
Then you could push me out of Russia-- that's the thing that I--
然后你就可以把我赶出俄罗斯——这就是我——
That is not going to happen.
那是不会发生的。
David Hill Oh, sure.
大卫·希尔 哦，当然。
I understand.
我明白。
No. I mean, that is not going to happen.
不，我的意思是，这不会发生。
I am sticking with you.
我和你在一起。
OK, cool.
好吧，酷。
Everyone was pretty convincing, I have to say.
我不得不说，每个人都非常有说服力。
I didn't know who to believe or who to trust.
我不知道该相信谁，也不知道该相信谁。
But Dennis didn't hesitate.
但丹尼斯并没有犹豫。
For him, it was just another day at the office.
对他来说，这只是办公室的又一天。
He took me into the hallway to confer.
他带我到走廊商量。
I think Germany is playing a long game.
我认为德国正在打一场持久战。
And is just asking you-- he's doing it in a very clever way.
只是在问你——他正在以一种非常聪明的方式做到这一点。
Right.
正确的。
Dennis Ross The same with Italy.
丹尼斯·罗斯 意大利也是如此。
He's doing it in a way where it doesn't look like he's trying to ask you to do things, when he actually is asking you to do something.
他这样做的方式看起来不像是在要求你做某事，但实际上他是在要求你做某事。
And the Turkish player, I think, is the one guy who is committed to you in a way that, I think, is most convincing.
我认为土耳其球员是一个以一种我认为最令人信服的方式对你做出承诺的人。
Dennis said that Turkey reminded him of someone, someone named Sergey Tereshchenko.
丹尼斯说，土耳其让他想起了一个人，一个叫谢尔盖·捷列先科的人。
Tereshchenko was the Soviet Foreign Minister's Chief Assistant.
捷列先科是苏联外交部长的首席助理。
When Dennis first met Tereshchenko, he knew he was going to have to work with him on the issue of German reunification, but he wasn't sure if he could trust him.
当丹尼斯第一次见到捷列先科时，他知道自己必须在德国统一问题上与他合作，但他不确定是否可以信任他。
Early on, he said to me-- at a certain point, he said, look the future of my country depends upon a different kind of relationship with the United States.
早些时候，他对我说，在某种程度上，他说，我国的未来取决于与美国的不同类型的关系。
And the way he said it to me made me feel like it wasn't a manipulation.
他对我说的话让我觉得这不是一种操纵。
The way he said it was almost exactly the way the person who is playing Turkey conveyed-- I'm going to be there.
他说的方式几乎和土耳其队的球员所传达的意思一样——我会去那里。
Even the inflection was the same.
连语调变化都一样。
I mean, for me, it's like I had this memory, sort of, flash before me, as I listened to him say it and the way he said it.
我的意思是，对我来说，当我听他说话以及他说话的方式时，就像我有这样的记忆，有点闪现在我面前。
Sold.
卖。
I allied with Turkey.
我与土耳其结盟。
This turned out to be smart.
事实证明这很聪明。
Later in the game, there were plenty of moments where I simply had no idea what the hell was going on.
在比赛的后期，有很多时刻我根本不知道到底发生了什么。
But Turkey knew what he was doing, and he had an interest in keeping me alive.
但土耳其知道他在做什么，而且他有兴趣让我活下去。
Since you're my number one ally, I'll just tell you, if you go down, I go down.
既然你是我的第一盟友，我就告诉你，如果你倒下，我就会倒下。
I mean, you are critical to me.
我的意思是，你对我很重要。
I mean, you have to be able to defend yourself.
我的意思是，你必须能够保护自己。
Can you give me the supply side of this so that I can make it a build?
你能给我提供这个的供应方面，以便我可以将其构建吗？
Oh.
哦。
David Hill In the fall-- not now, but in the fall.
大卫·希尔 秋天——不是现在，而是秋天。
I'm not ruling it out, actually, because I need for you not to collapse up here.
事实上，我并不排除这种可能性，因为我需要你不要倒在这儿。
As the game unfolded, everyone was going after Italy, everyone but me.
随着比赛的进行，每个人都在追赶意大利，除了我。
So Italy came over for a chat.
于是意大利过来聊天。
What do you want to have happen over the course of the next two years?
您希望在未来两年内发生什么？
My long term plan would be for you and I and Turkey to kill Austria, and then, you and I to kill Turkey.
我的长期计划是让你和我和土耳其杀死奥地利，然后你和我杀死土耳其。
It was a tempting offer, and I was flattered.
这是一个很诱人的提议，我很受宠若惊。
Italy was one of the best players on the board, a former world champion, named Chris Martin.
意大利是董事会中最好的球员之一，前世界冠军克里斯·马丁。
But saying yes to Italy meant turning against Turkey, and Turkey had been a loyal ally.
但对意大利说“是”就意味着反对土耳其，而土耳其一直是忠实的盟友。
So Dennis said no. It's like they say.
所以丹尼斯说不。就像他们说的那样。
You've got to dance with the one that brung you.
你必须与带你来的人一起跳舞。
I still think that, even though Italy is clearly the stronger player, Turkey is a more reliable player.
我仍然认为，尽管意大利显然是更强的球员，但土耳其是更可靠的球员。
I was still so nervous, I kept out of the fighting for as long as I could.
我仍然很紧张，我尽可能长时间地远离战斗。
I watched Germany and England turn on France and eliminate him from the game.
我看到德国和英格兰对阵法国并将他淘汰出局。
I couldn't stall forever.
我不能永远停滞不前。
I knew that eventually I'd have to go to war.
我知道我最终将不得不参战。
I just didn't know who I should fight.
我只是不知道该和谁战斗。
But Dennis watched me talking to Germany, who bears a more than passing resemblance to Jason Statham.
但丹尼斯看到我和德国交谈，他与杰森·斯坦森非常相似。
I was so anxious, you could hear me tapping my lapel mic with a pen.
我太焦虑了，你都能听到我用笔敲击领夹麦克风的声音。
All right.
好的。
I promise you I'm won't go after any of those four regions.
我向你保证我不会去追求这四个地区中的任何一个。
This turn.
这一转。
Germany Absolutely.
德国 绝对。
I can't promise what's going to happen in two or three turns' time, at this time.
我现在无法保证两三个回合后会发生什么。
I understand that.
我明白这一点。
Germany But it's at least a promise of a commitment that I can make, this turn.
德国 但这至少是我这次可以做出的承诺。
OK.
好的。
Germany I can't say further than that.
德国 我不能再说更多了。
Look, what he told you is he's not doing anything this time.
听着，他告诉你的是，这次他什么也没做。
But what he also told you, basically--
但他还告诉你，基本上——
Well, what he is telling you is he is going to do it later.
好吧，他告诉你的是他稍后会这样做。
That's what that meant.
就是这个意思。
Yeah.
是的。
So I declared war on Germany and advanced on Munich.
于是我向德国宣战并进军慕尼黑。
Cheeky.
厚脸皮。
David Hill Later, Germany told me this was a great move.
大卫·希尔 后来，德国告诉我这是一个伟大的举动。
Maybe that explains why he was so ticked off about it when I did it.
也许这可以解释为什么当我这样做时他会如此生气。
I've never lied to you.
我从来没有骗过你。
From now on, you can't rely on that.
从现在开始，你不能再依赖它了。
What you're doing is you're encouraging me to attack you.
你所做的就是鼓励我攻击你。
I understand that.
我明白这一点。
But I would like to say that I haven't lied to you either.
但我想说我也没有骗你。
Lying is something Dennis had very strong feelings about, and his feeling was never do it, ever.
丹尼斯对说谎有着非常强烈的感觉，但他的感觉是永远不要这样做。
You don't lie in real diplomacy, because it always comes back to haunt you.
在真正的外交中你不会撒谎，因为它总会回来困扰你。
Anyone you're dealing with now, you know, they're not going to go away.
你知道，现在与你打交道的任何人，他们都不会消失。
And so once you lie, that's always there.
所以一旦你撒谎，它就永远存在。
You don't lie.
你没有说谎。
He also told me that overall, I should keep my attitude in check-- no bullying, no badgering.
他还告诉我，总的来说，我应该控制自己的态度——不欺凌，不纠缠。
This is just what I wanted to hear.
这正是我想听到的。
My experience with playing cutthroat, like, when I blackmailed my friend or got cussed out in that creepy mansion, always ended badly.
我玩残酷的经历，比如当我勒索我的朋友或者在那座令人毛骨悚然的豪宅里被咒骂时，总是以糟糕的结局告终。
I was relieved to hear there was a way to be good at diplomacy without making everyone hate me in the process.
听到有一种方法既可以擅长外交又不会让每个人都讨厌我，我感到很欣慰。
Piedmont holds.
皮埃蒙特持有。
[INAUDIBLE] supports Munich.
[听不清] 支持慕尼黑。
Vienna supports Bohemia.
维也纳支持波西米亚。
Budapest to Romania--
布达佩斯飞往罗马尼亚——
After five or six hours, it got to the point where there were two major alliances, each one taking up about half the board.
五六个小时后，就出现了两大联盟，各自占据了一半左右的棋盘。
What that meant was a stalemate-- a six way draw, and we'd all have to split the points for the game.
这意味着一场僵局——六路平局，我们都必须平分比赛。
I was fine with that.
我对此很满意。
So were the other people in my alliance.
我联盟中的其他人也是如此。
But the other side wanted more points.
但对方想要更多的分数。
More points would give them a better shot at winning the world championship.
更多的积分将使他们更有机会赢得世界冠军。
So they pulled each person from my side into the hall, one by one.
于是他们把我这边的人一一拉进大厅。
And they offered each of us a deal to stab our friends.
他们向我们每个人提出了一项协议，让我们刺伤我们的朋友。
When Italy returned from his meeting in the hallway, they followed him back in the room, still hassling him.
当意大利从走廊里开会回来时，他们跟着他回到房间，仍然骚扰他。
They went up one side of him and down the other, until he snapped.
他们从他的一侧爬上来，又从另一侧爬下，直到他突然崩溃。
You're going to hold us hostage to a possible point where you knock us down to here.
你会把我们当作人质，到了一个可能的地步，你会把我们击倒到这里。
[INTERPOSING VOICES] No, no. Look they cut me out.
[插话] 不，不。瞧，他们把我排除在外了。
I don't care.
我不在乎。
No, shut up.
不，闭嘴。
I'm going to talk.
我要谈谈。
OK?
好的？
You're going to hold us hostage for five hours while you grind down, and you still can't cut us out, right?
你要把我们当作人质，让你苦苦挣扎五个小时，但你仍然无法将我们排除在外，对吗？
Because there's a 13th center standing line that all of us can get behind.
因为我们所有人都可以站在第 13 条中线站立线后面。
[INTERPOSING VOICES] David Hill Everyone in the room took a step back.
[插话] David Hill 房间里的每个人都后退了一步。
This was the first time tonight any of us had seen Italy show any kind of anger.
这是今晚我们第一次看到意大利表现出任何形式的愤怒。
And it occurred to me, is he faking this as a tactic?
我突然想到，他是在假装这是一种策略吗？
Dennis had said anger was a good tool, but only if you use it sparingly.
丹尼斯说过，愤怒是一个很好的工具，但前提是你要谨慎使用它。
If you use it all the time, it has no effect.
如果一直用的话是没有效果的。
And if you want it to have an effect, it has to, in a sense, have drama to it.
如果你想让它产生效果，从某种意义上说，它必须具有戏剧性。
Italy was down to a single army.
意大利只剩下一支军队。
He was a dead man walking if the game didn't end soon.
如果比赛不尽快结束，他就等于行尸走肉。
This was a smart time to get mad, and it was working.
这是一个明智的发怒时机，而且它正在发挥作用。
Well, I have now finished my sentence, so of course you may.
好吧，我现在已经把话说完了，所以你当然可以。
OK.
好的。
It's one turn.
这是一回合。
I want to see the fall played out.
我想看到秋天结束。
Our opponents agreed to only go one more turn before conceding to a draw.
我们的对手同意在承认平局之前只再进行一回合。
Nobody broke.
没有人打破。
Just like Dennis advised, Turkey and I stuck together to the very end with our new allies, Italy and Austria, and the game was over.
正如丹尼斯建议的那样，土耳其和我与我们的新盟友意大利和奥地利一起坚持到了最后，比赛就结束了。
It's over?
结束了？
Good game.
好游戏。
It was just like I'd hoped.
这正如我所希望的那样。
I survived.
我活了下来。
I got through the first game, a draw, with the best players in the world.
我与世界上最好的球员打平了第一场比赛。
Before he left, Dennis Ross said farewell to our opponents.
离开之前，丹尼斯·罗斯向我们的对手告别。
I want to tell you how much I was impressed by this.
我想告诉你这件事给我留下了多么深刻的印象。
It's not every day that a diplomat sees people who have a kind of instinct for what real diplomacy is.
外交官并不是每天都能见到对什么是真正的外交具有直觉的人。
You guys do it as if you're breathing.
你们这样做就像在呼吸一样。
It's like breathing oxygen for you.
这就像你呼吸氧气一样。
And notwithstanding some obvious differences between the real world and this, I still think that all of you would be good in the reality of diplomacy, not just in the game of it.
尽管现实世界与现实世界之间存在一些明显的差异，但我仍然认为你们所有人都会在外交现实中表现出色，而不仅仅是在外交游戏中。
I have a card.
我有一张卡。
Germany Thank you so much for your comments.
德国 非常感谢您的评论。
The good vibes died there.
美好的氛围在那里消失了。
Day two, Dennis was gone.
第二天，丹尼斯走了。
And without him, everything went to hell.
没有他，一切都陷入地狱。
My opponents weren't polite or patient anymore.
我的对手不再有礼貌或耐心了。
People admitted they'd been nicer when Dennis was around.
人们承认，当丹尼斯在身边时，他们会变得更好。
I think they might have wanted to show the diplomat just how diplomatic they could be.
我认为他们可能想向外交官展示他们的外交能力。
There were fewer attacks and stabs than usually happen-- but that was yesterday.
袭击和刺伤事件比平常少——但那是昨天的事了。
You fucked it up, right?
你搞砸了，对吧？
I mean, Austria really boned the game of Russia.
我的意思是，奥地利确实打败了俄罗斯。
He boned my game.
他破坏了我的比赛。
Day two was Lord of the Flies .
第二天是蝇王。
I stuck with the principles Dennis gave me-- pick an ally and stick with him, don't lie.
我坚持丹尼斯给我的原则——选择一个盟友并坚持他，不要撒谎。
But it was just like in that weird mansion.
但这就像在那座奇怪的宅邸里一样。
I felt like everyone was mad at me.
我感觉每个人都生我的气。
And this time, they all told me I wasn't vicious enough.
而这一次，他们都告诉我，我还不够恶毒。
This time they all wanted me to stab my ally.
这次他们都想让我刺伤我的盟友。
They laughed in my face and told me I was a fool.
他们当着我的面嘲笑我，说我是个傻瓜。
Everybody stabs, they said.
他们说，每个人都会刺伤。
That's part of the game.
这是游戏的一部分。
I refused, and the gloves came off.
我拒绝了，手套就掉了。
Are you going to be paid for writing this story, a burly Scottish player asked me?
一位魁梧的苏格兰球员问我，你写这个故事会得到报酬吗？
Because I'm losing three day's wages to be here so that I can get screwed by you.
因为我在这里损失了三天的工资，这样我就可以被你搞砸了。
He told me I wasn't just playing badly, I was ruining the game for everyone.
他告诉我，我不仅打得不好，而且还毁了所有人的比赛。
I got mad, and not in the smart, strategic, kind of way.
我生气了，而且不是以一种聪明的、战略性的方式生气。
Let me submit this to you.
让我把这个提交给你。
Perhaps, maybe your failure in this game was that you didn't do very good diplomacy with me or with Germany.
也许，也许你在这场比赛中的失败是因为你没有与我或与德国进行很好的外交。
That's your failure, not mine.
那是你的失败，不是我的。
So maybe that's why I'm tired of people telling me that I fucked the game up or that I should play differently, when maybe, you should play differently, and you should diplome better.
所以也许这就是为什么我厌倦了人们告诉我，我把游戏搞砸了，或者我应该以不同的方式玩，也许，你应该以不同的方式玩，你应该做得更好。
Eventually my ally, a high school math teacher named Brian, ended up stabbing me.
最终，我的盟友，一位名叫布莱恩的高中数学老师，最终刺伤了我。
He watched me go to the mat with the other players to defend him, then he chopped me out of the game for a few extra points.
他看着我和其他球员一起上场防守他，然后他把我从比赛中砍下来以获得一些额外的分数。
I was incredulous.
我简直不敢相信。
I pulled him aside and asked him why he sold me out.
我把他拉到一边，问他为什么出卖我。
He said, I guess I'm just a hard motherfucker like that, and turned and walked away.
他说，我想我就是个这样的混蛋，然后转身走开了。
I am not a hard motherfucker, not even in a game.
我不是一个硬汉，即使在游戏中也是如此。
I really wanted to play the game of diplomacy using actual diplomacy, being respectful and truthful, and it didn't work.
我真的很想用实际的外交手段来玩外交游戏，保持尊重和诚实，但没成功。
I felt frustrated and angry.
我感到沮丧和愤怒。
And my only consolation was-- at least Dennis Ross thought I'd make a good diplomat.
我唯一的安慰是——至少丹尼斯·罗斯认为我会成为一名优秀的外交官。
I mean, that's what he told me, so who cares what these nerds think.
我的意思是，这就是他告诉我的，所以谁在乎这些书呆子怎么想呢。
Hi.
你好。
David Hill I didn't win the tournament, Ambassador Ross.
大卫·希尔 我没有赢得比赛，罗斯大使。
You know, I didn't bet the house on you doing that.
你知道，我并没有把赌注押在你身上。
After I got back home, I called Dennis Ross.
回到家后，我给丹尼斯·罗斯打了电话。
I told him what I'd been thinking since the tournament-- that the game seemed to require players to be cutthroat, and it wasn't for me.
我告诉他自锦标赛以来我一直在想的事情——这项比赛似乎要求球员们必须残酷，但它不适合我。
I do think that you were probably wrong about me, at the end of the day.
归根结底，我确实认为你对我的看法可能是错误的。
I think that I'm probably not cut out for the US Foreign Service.
我认为我可能不适合美国外交部。
Well, I didn't say you were cut out for the US Foreign Service.
嗯，我并没有说你适合加入美国外交部。
Well, that's what I took away.
嗯，这就是我拿走的东西。
That was my take-away.
这就是我的收获。
That's how good he is.
他就是这么好。
He never lied to me.
他从来没有对我撒过谎。
He never told me I was cut out to be a diplomat.
他从未告诉我我适合成为一名外交官。
And somehow, I came away from our conversation believing exactly what I wanted to believe.
不知怎的，在我们谈话结束后，我完全相信了我想相信的事情。
David Hill.
大卫·希尔.
He wrote more about the world diplomacy championships for Grantland.
他为格兰特兰撰写了更多有关世界外交锦标赛的文章。
You can find that at Grantland.com.
您可以在 Grantland.com 上找到它。
Or there's also a link to that article at our website, thisamericanlife.org.
或者我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org 上也有该文章的链接。
Coming up, a do-gooder who does not have the back of most of the people who want his help.
即将到来的是，一位行善者却没有得到大多数需要他帮助的人的支持。
That's in a minute, from Chicago public radio when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
This American Life -- I'm Ira Glass.
这美国生活——我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, "Got Your Back"-- stories of trusting people to protect and guide you, even in situations where it is not so certain that that is a good idea.
今天的节目“支持你”——讲述相信人们会保护和引导你的故事，即使在不确定这是否是一个好主意的情况下。
We've arrived at Act 2 of our program.
我们已经到了计划的第二幕。
Act 2, "By the Waters of Haggle-On." You may have heard this audio on the internet.
第二幕，“讨价还价水域”。您可能在互联网上听过此音频。
A guy named Ryan Block called Comcast to cancel his internet service.
一个名叫瑞安·布洛克（Ryan Block）的人打电话给康卡斯特（Comcast）取消他的互联网服务。
He wanted to change to a different provider.
他想换一家不同的提供商。
And 10 minutes into the call, he started recording.
通话 10 分钟后，他开始录音。
OK.
好的。
We'd like to disconnect.
我们想断绝关系。
We'd like to disconnect, please.
我们想断开连接，拜托。
OK.
好的。
So why is it that you don't want this faster speed?
那么为什么你不想要这么快的速度呢？
Help me understand why you don't want faster internet?
帮助我理解为什么您不想要更快的互联网？
Help me understand why you can't just disconnect us.
帮助我理解为什么你不能直接断开我们的联系。
Because my job is to have a conversation with you about-- I mean, keeping your service, about finding out why it is that you're looking to cancel the service.
因为我的工作是与您交谈——我的意思是，保留您的服务，找出您想要取消服务的原因。
Can you disconnect us by phone?
你能通过电话断开我们的联系吗？
Can you disconnect our service?
您可以断开我们的服务吗？
Yes or no?
是还是不是？
But what I'm trying to find out is why don't you want--
但我想知道的是你为什么不想要——
Yes or no, can you disconnect our service?
是或否，您可以断开我们的服务吗？
--the same offer a brand new customer is going to get, faster internet than anyone can provide you?
--全新客户将获得同样的优惠，比任何人都能为您提供的更快的互联网？
Why don't you want those services?
您为什么不想要这些服务？
Because I'm not interested in your services any longer.
因为我对你们的服务不再感兴趣了。
OK.
好的。
So you're not interested in the fastest internet in the country?
那么您对国内最快的互联网不感兴趣吗？
Nope, not interested.
不，不感兴趣。
Comcast Representative OK.
康卡斯特代表好的。
Why is that?
这是为什么？
Can you disconnect us by phone?
你能通过电话断开我们的联系吗？
Are you capable, in your system, of disconnecting our service, yes or no?
您是否能够在您的系统中断开我们的服务，是或否？
This recording goes on and on for eight minutes.
这段录音持续了八分钟。
OK.
好的。
So you don't want to get service?
那么您不想获得服务吗？
You don't want something that works?
你不想要有用的东西吗？
No. I guess I don't want something that works.
不，我想我不想要有用的东西。
So why don't you want something that's good service and something that works?
那么，您为什么不想要一些服务良好且有效的东西呢？
I mean, is this like a joke?
我的意思是，这像个笑话吗？
Did we, like, call-- are you punking us right now?
我们有没有打电话——你现在在玩弄我们吗？
After this call went viral, someone from Comcast called Ryan block to apologize.
此电话被疯传后，康卡斯特的某人打电话给瑞安·布洛克道歉。
At this point, 5 million people have listened to this online.
至此，已有500万人在网上收听了这首歌曲。
And I think that it is so popular because so many of us have been in some situation like this, where against some company, we feel totally powerless.
我认为它如此受欢迎是因为我们很多人都经历过这样的情况，面对某些公司，我们感到完全无能为力。
Well, every other week in The Haggler column in The New York Times , people write in with their unsolvable consumer problems.
好吧，每隔一周，人们就会在《纽约时报》的讨价还价专栏中写下他们无法解决的消费者问题。
And then reporter David Segal steps in and takes their side.
然后记者大卫·西格尔介入并站在他们一边。
He has their back.
他支持他们。
He publicly approaches the company and tries to get them to do the right thing.
他公开与公司接触并试图让他们做正确的事情。
I work on behalf of people who have been driven insane by indifference, insane by the experience of knocking on a door, knowing that someone is on the other side of that door, and they will not respond.
我为那些因为冷漠而疯狂的人们而工作，因为敲门时知道有人在门的另一边而他们不会回应而疯狂。
If you can get those people behind the door to respond, it's like a magic trick.
如果你能让门后的人做出反应，那就像是魔术一样。
It feels like a magic trick to the reader.
对于读者来说，这感觉就像是一个魔术。
A while back, David Segal stepped in for a guy-- he said that he had signed up for a free trial of e-greeting cards from a company called Blue Mountain Greeting Cards.
不久前，大卫·西格尔 (David Segal) 介入了一个人的工作，他说他已经报名参加了一家名为 Blue Mountain Greeting Cards 的公司的电子贺卡免费试用。
The company required his credit card info to give him the free trial, and so he did that, and then he clicked some buttons.
该公司需要他的信用卡信息才能为他提供免费试用，所以他这样做了，然后他点击了一些按钮。
And then the next thing he knew, they told him that he was a monthly subscriber.
然后他知道的下一件事是，他们告诉他他是包月订阅者。
So he tried to cancel, right?
所以他试图取消，对吧？
This is from his email to David Segal.
这是他给大卫·西格尔的电子邮件。
I went back to the Cancel page.
我回到取消页面。
But it just said-- we are sorry, but we are unable to process your cancellation request, right now-- end quote.
但它只是说——我们很抱歉，我们现在无法处理您的取消请求——结束报价。
Funny, isn't it, that once you've paid, you can't cancel.
有趣的是，一旦付款，就无法取消，不是吗？
I'm out $19.99.
我已经花完了 19.99 美元。
Can you get it back?
你能把它拿回来吗？
William Potash, Brookline, Mass.
威廉·波塔什，布鲁克莱恩，马萨诸塞州
So I got in touch with Blue Mountain, and they fixed this problem really quickly.
所以我联系了蓝山，他们很快就解决了这个问题。
So good news, right?
好消息，对吧？
David tried to reach the consumer, which he always does for the column.
大卫试图接触消费者，他在专栏中总是这样做。
And suddenly, this guy who had been emailing him back and forth for days stopped returning his emails.
突然间，这个连续几天来回给他发电子邮件的人不再回复他的电子邮件了。
His column deadline approached.
他的专栏截止日期临近了。
David got a little more frantic.
大卫变得更加疯狂了。
And so I just went all out.
所以我就全力以赴。
I was like-- I got research to find his mother in New Jersey.
我当时想——我进行了研究，找到了他在新泽西州的母亲。
I tried to find out where he worked, just to like, get this information.
我试图找出他在哪里工作，只是为了获得这些信息。
I need to speak to you.
我需要和你谈谈。
Finally, like late on Thursday night, I get a call from a guy named Phil Potash.
最后，就像周四深夜，我接到一个名叫 Phil Potash 的人打来的电话。
And he's like, hey, I understand you're trying to get in touch with me.
他说，嘿，我知道你想联系我。
And I said, yeah, you wrote to me-- William Potash?
我说，是的，你写信给我——威廉·波塔什？
He said, oh no, I'm not William Potash, I'm Phil Potash.
他说，哦不，我不是威廉·波塔什，我是菲尔·波塔什。
I'm like, who's William Potash?
我想，威廉·波塔什是谁？
He said, that's my 10-year-old son.
他说，那是我10岁的儿子。
Oh.
哦。
David Segal It was a boy who had written me, completely convincingly as an adult.
大卫·西格尔（David Segal） 这是一个男孩给我写的信，完全令人信服地像个成年人一样。
It was this completely-- you know, credit card-- it was written, like, just deadpan as an adult.
这完全是——你知道的，信用卡——它是作为一个成年人面无表情地写的。
And I think the kid decided-- I don't want to get on the phone with this guy, because he's going to hear that I'm a 10-year-old boy.
我想那个孩子决定了——我不想和这个家伙打电话，因为他会听说我是一个 10 岁的男孩。
I remember sitting with friends saying, like, what could explain why William Potash won't call me back?
我记得和朋友坐在一起说，比如，什么可以解释为什么威廉·波塔什不给我回电话？
Let's rack our brains.
让我们绞尽脑汁吧。
What could explain this?
有什么可以解释这一点呢？
Please, like--
拜托，就像——
And what was your theory?
你的理论是什么？
David Segal I had no idea.
大卫·西格尔 我不知道。
I remember being completely stunned.
我记得我完全惊呆了。
And it turned out, he's 10 years old.
事实证明，他已经10岁了。
He doesn't want to talk to me, because he hasn't hit puberty.
他不想跟我说话，因为他还没有到青春期。
When you write a column like this, of course, tons of people get in touch, wanting you to take their side and get their backs.
当你写这样的专栏时，当然会有很多人联系你，希望你站在他们一边并支持他们。
And the overwhelming majority, David Segal says, he simply cannot help.
大卫·西格尔说，绝大多数人他根本无法提供帮助。
Like 95 out of 100, he cannot help, because he says these customers, they're not in their right.
就像百分之九十五的人一样，他无能为力，因为他说这些顾客没有权利。
They are--
他们是——
People who don't have a legitimate beef.
没有合法牛肉的人。
And this is most common with warranties.
这在保修中最为常见。
So they bought something five years ago.
所以他们五年前买了一些东西。
It had a three year warranty, The Haggler should step in and get a refund.
它有三年保修期，讨价还价者应该介入并获得退款。
Wait, and they understand that?
等等，他们明白吗？
They understand that the warranty ran out two years ago?
他们知道保修期已在两年前到期吗？
Yeah.
是的。
There's a fair amount of that.
其中有相当多的。
Here's someone who wanted something from a camera store.
有人想从相机商店购买一些东西。
And they said, we don't have it.
他们说，我们没有。
We don't have it in stock anymore.
我们已经没有库存了。
So let's refund your money.
那么我们就退还你的钱吧。
And he's like, I don't want a refund, I want the thing that I ordered.
他说，我不想退款，我想要我订购的东西。
And they're like, well, we don't have the thing you ordered, so let us send you your money back.
他们说，好吧，我们没有你订购的东西，所以让我们把钱退给你。
And he writes to me, and is like, can you make them send me the thing that I want?
他写信给我，问我，你能让他们寄给我我想要的东西吗？
And I'm like, no, they don't have it.
我想，不，他们没有。
Like, what am I supposed to do?
比如，我该怎么办？
[LAUGHTER] I don't really understand how I can help at all.
[笑声] 我真的不明白我能提供什么帮助。
So I mean, I think that this is a big part of my life, just sorting through complaints that aren't really good complaints.
所以我的意思是，我认为这是我生活的重要组成部分，只是整理那些并不是真正好的投诉的投诉。
Here's one.
这是一个。
In January, 2013, we traveled to Myanmar and purchased two wooden statues in a shop in Yangon.
2013年1月，我们去缅甸旅游，在仰光的一家商店购买了两尊木雕雕像。
That's the least promising start--
这是最没有希望的开始——
[LAUGHTER] --to any letter I've ever read, because the idea that The Haggler has any juice in Myanmar is ludicrous.
[笑声]——写给我读过的任何一封信，因为讨价还价者在缅甸有任何果汁的想法是荒谬的。
It's also like-- Ira Glass Like some guy in Myanmar, you're going to be-- woo, The New York Times.
这也就像——艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass），就像缅甸的某个人一样，你会——《纽约时报》。
Yeah, I'm going to call them up, and they're just going to start quaking immediately, and be like-- oh, did you see The New York Times?
是的，我要给他们打电话，他们会立即开始颤抖，然后说——哦，你看到《纽约时报》了吗？
Yeah, we have a refund going, right now, to this person.
是的，我们现在已向此人退款。
Ira Glass Do you think that writing the column for five years has made you more sympathetic to companies than you were at the beginning?
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：您认为五年来撰写专栏是否让您比刚开始时更加同情公司？
Oh, I'm sympathetic to both.
哦，我对两人都很同情。
I mean, when companies misbehave-- and I see a lot of companies misbehave-- I'm absolutely sympathetic to the customers.
我的意思是，当公司行为不端时——我看到很多公司行为不端——我绝对同情客户。
But I hear from enough entitled customers to feel sympathy for companies.
但我听到足够多的有资格的客户对公司表示同情。
What you see is the worst of customers and the worst of companies.
你看到的是最糟糕的客户和最糟糕的公司。
David Segal of The Haggler column in The New York Times .
《纽约时报》讨价还价专栏的大卫·西格尔。
Act Three: One Woman Show Ira Glass One Woman Show.
第三幕：一个女人的表演 Ira Glass 一个女人的表演。
There's this woman named, Hamida Gulistani.
这个女人名叫哈米达·古丽斯塔尼。
She advocates for women's rights in Afghanistan, helping women who are being beaten by their husbands or forced into terrible arranged marriages.
她在阿富汗倡导妇女权利，帮助那些被丈夫殴打或被迫进入可怕的包办婚姻的妇女。
And doing this work in Afghanistan is just as hard a job as whatever it is that you're imagining when I say those words.
在阿富汗做这项工作就像我说这些话时你想象的那样困难。
And for a few years, when the US presence in the country was at its greatest, she did feel like somebody had her back.
有几年，当美国在该国的影响力达到顶峰时，她确实感觉有人支持她。
She felt safer.
她感觉更安全了。
She saw some progress.
她看到了一些进步。
But now with the US pulling out, her situation is changing.
但现在随着美国退出，她的处境正在发生变化。
It's gotten way more dangerous already.
已经变得更加危险了。
We do not have her back in the same way at all.
我们根本没有以同样的方式让她回来。
For two and a half years, Kevin Sieff has been the Bureau Chief for The Washington Post in Afghanistan, and he has this story about the change that she is facing.
凯文·西夫 (Kevin Sieff) 担任《华盛顿邮报》驻阿富汗分社社长两年半以来，他讲述了她所面临的变化的故事。
A quick trigger warning, for anybody who needs a trigger warning, that this story does include descriptions of incidents of violence against women.
对于任何需要触发警告的人来说，这是一个快速触发警告，这个故事确实包含对暴力侵害妇女事件的描述。
Here's Kevin Sieff.
请听凯文·西夫的报道。
Before the US was there as her ally, Hamida was pretty much on her own, doing a job she invented for herself out of nothing.
在美国成为她的盟友之前，哈米达几乎是独自一人，做着她自己白手起家发明的工作。
She had no role models.
她没有榜样。
She completely made the whole thing up.
整件事都是她编造出来的。
She started doing this in 2005.
她从 2005 年开始这样做。
At the time, she had just gotten a nursing job at a clinic in a place called Ghazni City.
当时，她刚刚在加兹尼市的一家诊所找到了一份护理工作。
It's a sprawl of mostly mud-baked buildings in eastern Afghanistan.
这是阿富汗东部一片杂乱无章的建筑，大部分都是泥土烘烤的。
At the clinic, Hamida basically had a front row seat to how brutally women were still being treated four years after the American invasion.
在诊所里，哈米达基本上坐在前排，了解美国入侵四年后妇女仍然受到多么残酷的对待。
Patients arrived all the time, in burkas with bruises and broken bones.
病人不断赶来，他们穿着罩袍，身上有瘀伤和骨折。
One day, a pregnant woman showed up at the examination room.
有一天，一名孕妇出现在检查室。
[SPEAKING DARI] Hamida convinced her to go to the press.
[说达里语]哈米达说服她去见新闻界。
Afghan media outlets have popped up in Ghazni, because of funding from the US.
由于美国的资助，阿富汗媒体机构在加兹尼如雨后春笋般涌现。
And Hamida thought, a woman speaking out against her husband would be news.
哈米达认为，一个女人公开反对她的丈夫会成为新闻。
Maybe they could use the local media to shame the woman's husband.
也许他们可以利用当地媒体来羞辱这名妇女的丈夫。
Maybe they could even get the local Prosecutor's attention.
也许他们甚至可以引起当地检察官的注意。
How many calls were you getting?
你接到了多少个电话？
I mean, after this first incident, was your phone just ringing all the time?
我的意思是，在这第一次事件之后，你的电话一直在响吗？
[SPEAKING DARI] Hamida basically became a one woman emergency response team, a de facto point of contact for women who were abused, forced into marriages, or refused divorces.
[说达里语] 哈米达基本上成为了一支女性紧急响应小组，是遭受虐待、强迫婚姻或拒绝离婚的妇女的事实上的联络点。
Her phone number got passed all over Ghazni.
她的电话号码传遍了加兹尼。
She realized she didn't have the legal system on her side, she didn't have local officials on her side, but the Americans were encouraging Afghans to recognize women's rights.
她意识到法律体系没有站在她这一边，当地官员也没有站在她这一边，但美国人正在鼓励阿富汗人承认妇女的权利。
And the one tool Hamida had with the media, which she used.
这是哈米达与媒体打交道的唯一工具，也是她所使用的。
This was something new in Afghanistan.
这在阿富汗是新鲜事。
She'd drag along the press when she'd go to see a local Imam in a remote village.
当她去偏远村庄看望当地的伊玛目时，她会拖着媒体走。
The best way to help a woman facing domestic violence was to get the local religious leader involved, so she had a strategy.
帮助面临家庭暴力的妇女的最佳方法是让当地宗教领袖参与其中，因此她有一个策略。
She'd call the Imam.
她会打电话给伊玛目。
[SPEAKING DARI] With a reporter there, the Imam usually would be helpful.
[说达里语] 有记者在场，伊玛目通常会提供帮助。
For cases where women didn't want any media attention, Hamida would just show up at the family's house and ad hoc her way to an intervention.
对于女性不想受到任何媒体关注的情况，哈米达只会出现在家里并临时进行干预。
A lot of times, there was a conflict between the woman and her own family, mostly involving arranged marriages.
很多时候，女人和自己的家人之间会发生冲突，大多涉及包办婚姻。
A woman once came to Hamida.
曾经有一个女人来到哈米达。
She said her father was about to marry her off to a drug addict.
她说她父亲要把她嫁给一个吸毒者。
[SPEAKING DARI] Kevin Sieff What happened to the girl after this case was settled by the Attorney General?
[说达里语] Kevin Sieff 总检察长解决此案后，这个女孩怎么样了？
[SPEAKING DARI] Kevin Sieff To a man that she chose to marry?
[说达里语] Kevin Sieff 嫁给她选择结婚的男人？
Nine years after she first started, Hamida still operates pretty much the same way.
哈米达刚开始工作九年后，她的运作方式仍然几乎相同。
She keeps track of all of her cases in a gruesome notebook.
她在一本可怕的笔记本上记录了所有案件。
It's full of pictures she's taken of victims with her digital camera-- handcuffed girls standing in prison, women who have almost been beaten to death.
里面满是她用数码相机拍摄的受害者的照片——戴着手铐站在监狱里的女孩，几乎被殴打致死的妇女。
Hamida carries an old black cell phone with her all the time.
哈米达一直随身携带一部旧的黑色手机。
And it's constantly ringing with calls from women who want her help.
需要她帮助的女性的电话不断响起。
[SPEAKING DARI] It didn't take long for the Americans to notice Hamida.
[说达里语] 没过多久，美国人就注意到了哈米达。
They'd hoped to find Afghan women who would take up the cause of women's rights.
她们希望找到愿意为女权事业奋斗的阿富汗妇女。
And here she was, exactly what they were looking for-- someone outspoken, aggressive, and willing to risk her life.
而她就在这里，正是他们所寻找的人——一个直言不讳、有进取心、愿意冒生命危险的人。
So they met Hamida and involved her in meetings with top Afghan leaders.
因此，他们会见了哈米达，并让她参加了与阿富汗高层领导人的会面。
She even came to Washington, DC, as part of a State Department program.
她甚至作为国务院计划的一部分来到华盛顿特区。
Now Hamida is a big deal.
现在哈米达是一件大事。
Lots of Afghans know who she is.
许多阿富汗人都知道她是谁。
See's on the Provincial Council in Ghazni.
参见加兹尼省议会。
It's their version of the State Senate.
这是他们版本的州参议院。
She's also on popular national TV shows all the time, like this one, called The People's Voice .
她还经常出现在热门的全国性电视节目中，比如这个名为《人民之声》的节目。
[SPEAKING DARI] In one segment, she's wearing eyeshadow, lipstick, and high heels.
[说达里语] 在一个片段中，她涂了眼影、涂了口红，还穿着高跟鞋。
She's in her 40s, the only woman on a big panel of men.
她 40 多岁，是一大群男性中唯一的女性。
She fields questions from young women in the audience.
她回答了观众中年轻女性提出的问题。
[SPEAKING DARI] This woman asks why the Afghan government talks so much about women's rights, but doesn't actually do anything.
[说达里语] 这位女士问为什么阿富汗政府谈论了这么多关于妇女权利的问题，但实际上却没有采取任何行动。
Why are women still having trouble going to school and being out in public?
为什么女性仍然难以上学和外出公共场所？
I asked my translator to tell me Hamida's response.
我请我的翻译告诉我哈米达的回应。
[SPEAKING DARI] She's one of the few women in Afghanistan willing to criticize the government so publicly on national television.
[说达里语] 她是阿富汗少数愿意在国家电视台如此公开批评政府的女性之一。
In Hamida's view, what she's doing only seems radical because Afghanistan has changed so much since she was a girl.
在哈米达看来，她所做的事情看起来很激进，因为自从她还是个女孩以来，阿富汗已经发生了很大的变化。
In the 1970s and '80s, it was a far more liberal place.
在 20 世纪 70 年代和 80 年代，这是一个更加自由的地方。
It was a society dominated by men, but her father would never insult his daughters or humiliate them or beat them.
那是一个以男人为主导的社会，但她的父亲绝不会侮辱女儿，羞辱她们，打她们。
She knew women who wore skirts and sleeveless shirts.
她认识穿裙子和无袖衬衫的女人。
But Hamida remembers when all that changed-- when the Mujahideen took over the country.
但哈米达还记得一切发生变化的时候——圣战者组织接管这个国家的时候。
A rocket hit their house.
一枚火箭击中了他们的房子。
Her cousin was injured.
她的表弟受伤了。
Everyone was going to the hospital, and her brother stopped her.
大家都要去医院，她哥哥拦住了她。
[SPEAKING DARI] Hamida had been helping women in Ghazni for four years when President Obama announced the troop surge in 2009, and many of those soldiers and Marines were dispatched to Ghazni.
[说达里语] 当奥巴马总统于 2009 年宣布增兵时，哈米达已经帮助加兹尼妇女四年了，其中许多士兵和海军陆战队员被派往加兹尼。
It's part of the Taliban's heartland.
它是塔利班核心地带的一部分。
At one point, the province had about 20 American bases and several thousand American troops.
该省一度拥有大约 20 个美军基地和数千名美军。
For the first time, Hamida had real, physical protection, international attention, and legitimacy in the eyes of her own skeptical government.
哈米达第一次获得了真正的人身保护、国际关注以及在她自己持怀疑态度的政府眼中的合法性。
The world's superpower had her back.
世界超级大国支持了她。
And it gave her a sense of invincibility.
并且给了她一种无敌的感觉。
She threw a big celebration in 2010 for Women's Day, and the US Ambassador's wife showed up.
2010年，她举办了一场盛大的妇女节庆祝活动，美国大使的夫人也出席了。
US troops came to help with security, and there was a huge turnout-- something that would have been hard to imagine before.
美军前来协助维护安全，参加人数之多，这在以前是难以想象的。
Women in Ghazni were often confined to their homes.
加兹尼的妇女常常被限制在家里。
Things weren't perfect, but they seemed to be moving in the right direction.
事情并不完美，但它们似乎正在朝着正确的方向发展。
[SPEAKING DARI] But after just a few years, in 2013, Americans were withdrawing from Ghazni, as a part of the larger plan to end the war.
[达里语] 但仅仅几年后，即 2013 年，美国人就从加兹尼撤军，作为结束战争的更大计划的一部分。
For months now, they've been tearing down bases all over Afghanistan.
几个月来，他们一直在拆除阿富汗各地的基地。
And when you drive around the country, they already look like ancient artifacts-- sort of like Pompeii, with rusty razor wire.
当你开车环游这个国家时，它们看起来就像古代文物——有点像庞贝古城，有生锈的刀片刺网。
Hamida's American contacts in the province were now suddenly gone.
哈米达在该省的美国人联系现在突然消失了。
She felt things slipping backwards.
她感觉事情正在倒退。
And then last August.
然后是去年八月。
[SPEAKING DARI] The police didn't come until after the attack had completely ended.
[达里语] 直到袭击完全结束后警察才来。
By that time, Hamida's bodyguard and driver were dead.
那时，哈米达的保镖和司机都已经死了。
She got lucky.
她很幸运。
The Taliban wanted to kill her.
塔利班想杀了她。
[SPEAKING DARI] The Taliban are now gaining more control in Ghazni.
[达里语] 塔利班现在在加兹尼获得了更多控制权。
At this point in the withdrawal, the US is mostly focused on training Afghan police and other security forces on how to defeat them.
目前，在撤军过程中，美国主要集中于培训阿富汗警察和其他安全部队如何击败他们。
Women's rights have dropped into the background, and more and more Afghan officials don't even give lip service to women's rights.
妇女权利已经被抛到了幕后，越来越多的阿富汗官员甚至不再口头上支持妇女权利。
Last year, they tried to pass a law that would have made it legal to stone a woman accused of adultery.
去年，他们试图通过一项法律，使用石头砸死被指控通奸的妇女合法化。
A few months later, Parliament tried to make it tougher to prosecute rape cases.
几个月后，议会试图加大起诉强奸案的难度。
[SPEAKING DARI] Hamida has a folder full of death threats from the Taliban.
[达里语] 哈米达有一个文件夹，里面装满了来自塔利班的死亡威胁。
She's been shot at in a shopping mall.
她在购物中心遭到枪击。
Her daughter was in a car chase on the highway.
她的女儿在高速公路上遭遇汽车追逐。
Hamida is always on edge and changes her house every six months.
哈米达总是紧张不安，每六个月就换一次房子。
[SPEAKING DARI] Just to give you a sense of what Hamida is up against, the main people left in Ghazni to protect her-- the police-- are often the same people she's trying to prosecute.
[说达里语]只是为了让您了解哈米达所面临的困境，留在加兹尼保护她的主要人员——警察——往往正是她试图起诉的人。
A United Nations report shows that 70% of Afghan female police officers have been sexually abused or harassed by male officers.
联合国报告显示，70%的阿富汗女警官曾遭受过男警官的性虐待或骚扰。
One of her most disturbing cases recently involved a police officer kidnapping a 13-year-old girl named Nuria, then he gang-raped her with some of his colleagues.
她最令人不安的案件之一最近涉及一名警察绑架了一名名叫努里亚的 13 岁女孩，然后他与一些同事轮奸了她。
Hamida said the girl's whole body was shaking uncontrollably when they met.
哈米达说，当他们见面时，女孩的整个身体都在不受控制地颤抖。
Nuria decided to talk to local media.
努里亚决定与当地媒体交谈。
She wanted these guys arrested.
她希望逮捕这些人。
So Hamida organized a press conference.
于是哈米达组织了一场新闻发布会。
She sat next to Nuria at a table set up with microphones and recorders.
她坐在努里亚旁边一张桌子旁，桌子上摆着麦克风和录音机。
[SPEAKING DARI] Nuria tells them, I regained my consciousness around midnight.
[说达里语] 努里亚告诉他们，我在午夜左右恢复了知觉。
I saw three men, and I was completely naked.
我看到三个男人，而我全身赤裸。
I tried to grab my clothes, but I fainted.
我试图抓住我的衣服，但我晕了过去。
These men violated me and kidnapped me, and I want the government to provide justice for me.
这些人侵犯了我，绑架了我，我希望政府还我一个公道。
[SPEAKING DARI] Kevin Sieff She's missing?
[说达里语] Kevin Sieff 她失踪了？
[SPEAKING DARI] Kevin Sieff You know who the police officers were, and nothing happened to them?
[说达里语] Kevin Sieff 你知道那些警察是谁，他们什么也没发生？
[SPEAKING DARI] Over the last year or so, the Taliban has ramped up its own campaign against women.
[说达里语] 在过去一年左右的时间里，塔利班加强了针对妇女的运动。
They've killed at least six female police officers and other women, as well.
他们还杀害了至少六名女警察和其他女性。
Sometimes they videotape their murders.
有时他们会录下谋杀过程。
In one video, a woman named Najiba, who was accused of adultery, was shot 13 times, while men cheered in the background.
在一段视频中，一名名叫纳吉巴的女子被指控通奸，身中13枪，而男人们则在背景中欢呼。
At the same time, Hamida says, she sees signs of progress in surprising places-- like she's getting a lot of phone calls these days from girls who've run away from home who need shelter.
哈米达说，与此同时，她在令人惊讶的地方看到了进展的迹象——比如这些天她接到了很多离家出走、需要庇护的女孩打来的电话。
What's hopeful about this, she says, is that these girls have gotten a message-- that they have a choice, they don't have to put up with violence.
她说，这件事的希望在于，这些女孩已经得到了一个信息——她们有选择，她们不必忍受暴力。
American officials are hoping Hamida can continue the mission she started even after their departure.
美国官员希望哈米达即使在他们离开后也能继续她开始的使命。
One diplomat who's worked with Hamida is Karen Decker.
凯伦·德克尔 (Karen Decker) 是一位与哈米达共事过的外交官。
She was the State Department's top official in eastern Afghanistan and used to fly over to Ghazni in a helicopter whenever she wanted to see Hamida.
她是国务院驻阿富汗东部的最高官员，每当她想见哈米达时，她都会乘坐直升机飞往加兹尼。
I will worry about Afghan women.
我会担心阿富汗妇女。
I worry about the fact that they still have a big fight ahead of them, and the bad times may last a long time.
我担心他们前面还有一场大战，糟糕的时光可能会持续很长时间。
They've got to keep fighting.
他们必须继续战斗。
But it's going to be a hard fight.
但这将是一场艰苦的战斗。
Karen left her post in Afghanistan shortly after this interview.
这次采访后不久，凯伦就离开了她在阿富汗的职位。
She'd been there for two years, going to some of the country's most dangerous districts, where some of her first questions were almost always about women-- could they vote, could they work, could they attend school?
她在那里已经两年了，去过这个国家一些最危险的地区，在那里她的第一个问题几乎总是关于女性——她们可以投票，可以工作，可以上学吗？
Regardless of the answers, she knew the US withdrawal had to continue.
不管答案如何，她知道美国必须继续撤军。
At a certain point, we had to step back, even from women that we knew were out there on the razor edge, trying to do good for Afghan women writ large.
在某个时刻，我们必须退后一步，即使是那些我们知道处于刀锋边缘的女性，也要努力为阿富汗女性做更多的好事。
We still knew that for sustainable development, we could not continue to sit right next to them and enable their every movement, recognizing that it hurts.
我们仍然知道，为了可持续发展，我们不能继续坐在他们旁边并支持他们的每一个动作，因为我们认识到这会带来伤害。
It hurts to see that.
看到这一点很痛苦。
I think anyone would say the same thing.
我想任何人都会说同样的话。
But we sort of steeled our resolve and said, we've got to stop.
但我们坚定了决心并说，我们必须停止。
Because otherwise, we're going to have to be here forever.
因为否则的话，我们将不得不永远留在这里。
They will never stand on their own two feet.
他们永远无法靠自己的两只脚站立。
When the US does leave, or as the withdrawal continues, what's the plan to continue supporting women like Hamida?
当美国确实离开时，或者随着撤军的继续，继续支持像哈米达这样的女性的计划是什么？
Well, a year ago, I banned the word "leaving" from the vocabulary of every American who worked for me, because we're not leaving.
嗯，一年前，我禁止在为我工作的每个美国人的词汇中使用“离开”这个词，因为我们不会离开。
Our embassy is enduring.
我们的大使馆经久不衰。
Our embassy is enormous.
我们的大使馆很大。
It has one of the largest development budgets in the world.
它拥有世界上最大的发展预算之一。
I know what you mean when you ask the question-- and yes, everybody talks about us leaving-- but we're not leaving.
我知道你问这个问题的意思——是的，每个人都在谈论我们离开——但我们不会离开。
We are just not going to be physically present in villages and provincial capitals, which is exactly the way we do business in most of the world.
我们只是不会亲自出现在村庄和省会城市，而这正是我们在世界大部分地区开展业务的方式。
Here's the thing, though-- every Afghan, including Hamida, has a cell phone.
但事情是这样的——每个阿富汗人，包括哈米达，都有一部手机。
Access to the internet is growing.
互联网的普及正在不断增长。
And we will communicate with people via all kinds of computer-based technologies-- Skype, we do a lot of Skype-- and Hamida is very well connected to us through those mechanisms.
我们将通过各种基于计算机的技术与人们进行交流——Skype，我们经常使用Skype——而哈米达通过这些机制与我们建立了很好的联系。
[SPEAKING DARI] Kevin Sieff Hamida's internet connection isn't fast enough in Ghazni for Skype.
[说达里语] Kevin Sieff Hamida 在加兹尼的互联网连接速度不够快，无法使用 Skype。
She only speaks Dari.
她只会说达里语。
She says, sure, since the bases have closed in her area, American officials and soldiers still try to keep in touch.
她说，当然，由于她所在地区的基地已经关闭，美国官员和士兵仍在努力保持联系。
They send her email.
他们给她发电子邮件。
She does understand a little bit of English, but it's not good enough to read those emails.
她确实懂一点英语，但还不足以阅读那些电子邮件。
[SPEAKING DARI] For safety reasons, Hamida moved her kids out of Ghazni.
[说达里语]出于安全原因，哈米达将她的孩子们搬出了加兹尼。
She sent one to live in Pakistan and three to Kabul.
她派了一名去巴基斯坦居住，三名去了喀布尔。
Now, they act like they're the parents.
现在，他们表现得就像是父母一样。
They check in with Hamida frequently, ask how her day went, and just make sure she's OK.
他们经常与哈米达联系，询问她今天过得怎么样，并确保她一切都好。
Sometimes her son, Solar, tries to stop her from going out on cases, especially at night.
有时，她的儿子索拉（Solar）会试图阻止她出去处理案件，尤其是在晚上。
He's 13, and her youngest.
他13岁，她最小。
I used the same interpreter for our interview.
我在采访中使用了同一个翻译。
[SPEAKING DARI] It's not as clear for Hamida's daughter, Frohal.
[说达里语]哈米达的女儿弗罗哈尔不太清楚。
She admires her mom.
她很佩服她的妈妈。
She wants to be just like her, and she's as progressive as any woman I've met in Afghanistan.
她想成为像她一样的人，她和我在阿富汗遇到的任何女性一样进步。
When I met her at her house, Frohal wasn't wearing a headscarf.
当我在她家见到她时，弗罗哈尔没有戴头巾。
She's a senior in college studying art.
她是大学四年级学生，学习艺术。
She likes sculpting nudes.
她喜欢雕刻裸体。
In a few months, she'll graduate and move back to Ghazni to work with her mom.
几个月后，她将毕业并搬回加兹尼与妈妈一起工作。
Frohal told me she recently asked her mom what happens to their family when the Americans are completely gone?
弗罗哈尔告诉我，她最近问她妈妈，当美国人完全消失后，他们的家人会发生什么？
Again, I used the same translator.
我再次使用同一个翻译器。
[SPEAKING DARI] Right now, when Hamida thinks about the future, she vacillates between two extremes.
[讲达里语] 现在，当哈米达思考未来时，她在两个极端之间摇摆不定。
She can double down and run for Parliament next year.
她可以加倍努力，明年竞选议会议员。
If she won a spot, she'd finally have some real power over Afghanistan's laws.
如果她赢得一席之地，她最终将拥有对阿富汗法律的一些真正权力。
But it would also make her an even bigger target for the Taliban.
但这也将使她成为塔利班更大的目标。
Or she could openly admit to her American contacts that she needs help getting out of the country.
或者她可以向她的美国联系人公开承认她需要帮助才能离开这个国家。
Hamida keeps their business cards in a special drawer in her desk.
哈米达将他们的名片放在办公桌上的一个特殊抽屉里。
She's already thinking about asking him for visas for her kids.
她已经在考虑向他为她的孩子申请签证。
We talked for hours before she told me this.
在她告诉我这件事之前我们聊了几个小时。
She was embarrassed.
她很尴尬。
[SPEAKING DARI] Kevin Sieff Does that ever make you want to quit?
[说达里语] Kevin Sieff 这会让你想放弃吗？
[SPEAKING DARI] For now, though, in public, Hamida still plays the part of a confident Afghan woman.
[说达里语] 不过，目前在公共场合，哈米达仍然扮演着自信的阿富汗女性的角色。
She wants women to feel like they still have an advocate.
她希望女性感觉她们仍然有一个支持者。
And so every time her cell phone rings, she takes the call, and when needed, heads out the door.
因此，每当她的手机响起时，她都会接听电话，并在需要时走出家门。
Kevin Sieff is a foreign correspondent for The Washington Post .
凯文·西耶夫 (Kevin Sieff) 是《华盛顿邮报》的驻外记者。
Thanks to his interpreter, Shafi Sharifi.
感谢他的翻译沙菲·谢里菲。
[MUSIC - "GOT YOUR BACK" BY MATT THE ELECTRICIAN]
[音乐 - 电工马特的“GOT YOUR BACK”]
Our program was produced today by Chana Joffe-Walt, myself, with Alex Blumberg, Ben Calhoun, Sean Cole, Stephanie Foo, Sarah Keonig, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Brian Reed, Robin Semien, Alyssa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
今天我们的节目由查纳·乔夫-沃尔特本人、亚历克斯·布伦伯格、本·卡尔霍恩、肖恩·科尔、斯蒂芬妮·符、莎拉·科尼格、米基·米克、乔纳森·门吉瓦尔、布莱恩·里德、罗宾·塞米恩、阿丽莎·希普和南希·厄普代克共同制作。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Production help from JP Dukes.
JP Dukes 提供制作帮助。
Seth Lind is our operations director.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的运营总监。
Emily Condon's our production manager.
艾米丽·康登是我们的生产经理。
Elise Bergerson's our office manager.
埃莉斯·伯格森是我们的办公室经理。
Adrianne Mathiowetz runs our website.
阿德琳娜·马修韦茨 (Adrianne Mathiowetz) 负责运营我们的网站。
Research help from Michelle Harris and Julie Beer.
米歇尔·哈里斯和朱莉·比尔的研究帮助。
Music help from Rob Geddis.
罗布·格迪斯 (Rob Geddis) 提供音乐帮助。
Thanks, today, to Mohammad Sharif, Arash Afghahi, Sonya Ryda, Barya Schechter, David Hood, Chris Martin, Steve Cooley, Toby Harris, Andy Bartoloni, Siobhan Nolan, Mark Stegman, Aaron Duncan, Eric Monte, Greg Legoretta, and Emanuel Ruffler, of Mac Tech.
今天，感谢 Mac Tech 的 Mohammad Sharif、Arash Afghahi、Sonya Ryda、Barya Schechter、David Hood、Chris Martin、Steve Cooley、Toby Harris、Andy Bartoloni、Siobhan Nolan、Mark Stegman、Aaron Duncan、Eric Monte、Greg Legoretta 和 Emanuel Ruffler。
A water pipe burst last night in our computer room, here at the radio show.
昨晚我们广播节目的计算机房的水管爆了。
The only reason that we actually have a new program today is Emanuel swooping in after midnight to pull the audio off of water-soaked computers.
我们今天实际上有一个新节目的唯一原因是伊曼纽尔在午夜后突然出现，从被水浸透的电脑上取下音频。
He had our back.
他支持我们。
He saved the day.
他拯救了世界。
Our website-- thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站——thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia, who describes his efforts rallying everybody who pitches on air during the pledge drive this way--
一如既往地感谢我们节目的联合创始人托里·马拉蒂亚 (Torey Malatia) 先生，他描述了他在承诺推动期间团结所有在广播中发言的人所做的努力——
I work on behalf of people who have been driven insane by indifference, insane by the experience of knocking on a door, knowing that someone's on the other side of that door, and they will not respond.
我为那些因为冷漠而疯狂的人们而工作，因为敲门时知道有人在门的另一边而他们不会回应，这些经历让他们变得疯狂。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life
下周将带来更多《美国生活》的故事
[MUSIC - "GOT YOUR BACK" BY MATT THE ELECTRICIAN]
[音乐 - 电工马特的“GOT YOUR BACK”]
This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。