530: Mind Your Own Business - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #530 | July 18, 2014 530: Mind Your Own Business Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 530 集 | 2014 年 7 月 18 日 530：管好自己的事 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Your know who Studs Terkel is?
序言 Ira Glass 你知道 Studs Terkel 是谁吗？
I think a lot of people, especially if you're younger, you read him in school-- his books, Division Street and Working and The Good War .
我想很多人，尤其是年轻的人，都在学校读过他的书——《分区街与工作》和《正义之战》。
He was an oral historian.
他是一位口述历史学家。
But from 1952 to 1997, he also did a radio show on WMFT in Chicago, where he would broadcast the interviews that ended up in his books, and also lots of interviews with famous musicians and actors and artists.
但从 1952 年到 1997 年，他还在芝加哥的 WMFT 上做了一个广播节目，在那里他会播放他书中的采访内容，以及对著名音乐家、演员和艺术家的大量采访。
Anyway, I was going through some old tapes of his radio show recently for this event they had celebrating his life.
不管怎样，我最近正在翻阅他广播节目的一些旧磁带，以纪念他们庆祝他一生的活动。
And I stumbled across this utterly ordinary, nothing-special-going-on Friday on his radio program.
我在他的广播节目中偶然发现了这个完全平常、没什么特别的星期五。
Anyway, here's Studs.
无论如何，这里是螺柱。
I think it's pretty obvious to readers that Mike Royko's column is not only witty, but I think it's journalism in the true sense, in digging into--
我认为对读者来说很明显，迈克·罗伊科的专栏不仅诙谐，而且我认为这是真正意义上的新闻，深入挖掘——
It's a Friday in July nearly 50 years ago.
这是近 50 年前七月的一个星期五。
It's July 29, 1966.
这是 1966 年 7 月 29 日。
And his guest that day is a good friend of his, newspaper columnist Mike Royko, another iconic Chicago figure.
那天他的客人是他的好朋友、报纸专栏作家迈克·罗伊科（Mike Royko），他是芝加哥的另一位标志性人物。
Anyway, on this particular day, they kill two hours very interestingly, I have to say, chatting about stories in the news.
不管怎样，在这个特殊的日子里，我不得不说，他们聊了新闻里的故事，度过了非常有趣的两个小时。
The medical director of Cook County hospital, for example, had made headlines when he said that he did not need to air condition the operating rooms in the facility.
例如，库克县医院的医疗主任说他不需要为该医院的手术室安装空调，因此登上了头条新闻。
Surgeons, he said, should instead eat salted crackers, which would replace the salt that doctors lose when they sweat.
他说，外科医生应该吃咸饼干，这样可以补充医生出汗时流失的盐分。
There was some news that week about the prize fighter they still called Cassius Clay.
那周有一些关于这位仍被称为卡修斯·克莱的职业拳击手的消息。
There was a story that was national news at the time that I would be very surprised if you heard of.
有一个故事当时是全国新闻，如果你听说的话我会感到非常惊讶。
I had not heard of this.
我没听说过这个。
Basically, a justice on the Supreme Court, William O.
基本上，最高法院的法官 William O.
Douglas, a liberal appointed by FDR who'd been on the bench almost three decades at that point-- the news was he had gotten married.
道格拉斯是罗斯福任命的一名自由主义者，当时他已经在替补席上待了近三十年——有消息称他已经结婚了。
Here's Studs talking to Mike Royko about that.
以下为 Studs 与 Mike Royko 的对话。
And you did a column, I understand, received quite a response.
据我所知，你写了一篇专栏，收到了相当大的反响。
What happened in Congress, the objections of many-- Pat, I think this is worth reading.
国会发生的事情，许多人的反对——帕特，我认为这值得一读。
Mhm.
嗯。
Studs Terkel May I read this one?
Studs Terkel 我可以读一下这一篇吗？
Because this leads, I know, to all sorts of discussion.
因为我知道这会引发各种各样的讨论。
OK, I'm just going to stop the tape right there.
好的，我要把磁带停在那里。
For whatever reason, Royko seems to prefer that Studs read his columns on this show, rather than read them out loud himself.
无论出于何种原因，罗伊科似乎更喜欢斯塔兹在这个节目中阅读他的专栏，而不是自己大声朗读。
And if it's OK with you, I enjoyed this next bit, and I know that you tuned in just now to hear a radio show made, you know, today, but let's just do a little time travel, OK?
如果您同意的话，我很喜欢接下来的内容，而且我知道您刚才收听了今天制作的广播节目，但是让我们进行一点时间旅行，好吗？
So your radio or your computer or your smartphone or whatever picks up instead a radio show from 1966 for just a couple minutes.
因此，您的收音机、电脑、智能手机或其他任何设备都会播放 1966 年的广播节目，持续几分钟。
And let's enjoy this together.
让我们一起享受这个。
Here's Studs.
这里是螺柱。
And Mike writes, "a ringing dissent to criticism of Justice Douglas.
迈克写道，“对道格拉斯大法官的批评提出了强烈的异议。
When Associate Justice William O.
当副法官 William O.
Douglas returns from his honeymoon, it would be perfectly proper for him to do the following-- walk with great dignity to his seat on the Supreme Court bench, sit down, draw his black robes about him, slowly raise is right hand, touch the tip of his thumb to the tip of his nose, wiggle his fingers."
道格拉斯蜜月归来，他做以下事情是完全正确的——带着极大的尊严走到最高法院法官席上的座位上，坐下来，把黑色长袍裹在身上，慢慢举起右手，用拇指尖触碰鼻尖，摆动手指。”
OK, just pausing that again.
好吧，只是再次暂停。
Have you got what he's describing there?
你明白他在那里描述的内容吗？
OK, good.
好的，很好。
"Now, this would provide a fitting message and ensure an explanation for the busybodies of America, who currently are wallowing in indignation, their favorite puddle.
“现在，这将提供一个合适的信息，并确保为美国那些爱管闲事的人提供一个解释，他们目前正沉浸在他们最喜欢的愤怒之中。
The busybodies are upset because Douglas, 67, married Cathleen Heffernan, 23.
67 岁的道格拉斯 (Douglas) 与 23 岁的凯瑟琳·赫弗南 (Cathleen Heffernan) 结婚，让爱管闲事的人感到不安。
It was his fourth marriage, and she is his youngest bride."
这是他的第四次婚姻，她是他最小的新娘。”
The issue here, in Royko's opinion, is whether this is really anybody's business at all-- which is, incidentally, the subject of today's radio show, our radio show, when to mind your own business.
罗伊科认为，这里的问题是，这是否真的与任何人无关——顺便说一句，这也是今天广播节目、我们广播节目的主题，即何时该管好自己的事。
"The fact that a man they don't know married a girl they don't know, for reasons that are none of anyone else's business, has a terrible effect on the tempers of many people.
“一个他们不认识的男人娶了一个他们不认识的女孩，其原因与其他人无关，这一事实对许多人的脾气产生了可怕的影响。
Why this is, I don't know."
这是为什么，我不知道。”
Royko's column then quotes some things that he heard somebody say about the marriage on a Chicago call-in show.
罗伊科的专栏随后引用了他在芝加哥电话节目中听到有人谈论这桩婚姻的一些事情。
And then Royko turns to Congress, where a Democrat from Alabama called for a congressional investigation into Douglas's character because of this marriage, and said that he had heard that Douglas had been cruel to his previous wives.
然后罗伊科转向国会，一位来自阿拉巴马州的民主党人呼吁国会因这桩婚姻对道格拉斯的性格进行调查，并表示他听说道格拉斯对他的前任妻子很残忍。
A congressman from Mississippi said that of all the courts troublesome decisions recently, this decision, to head down the quote, "highway of matrimony," has raised the most eyebrows.
密西西比州的一位国会议员表示，在最近法院做出的所有麻烦裁决中，这一引用“婚姻高速公路”的裁决最引起人们的关注。
"And Representative Paul Finley, Republican of Illinois, said there should be a way to remove a justice from the bench without a trial for crimes or misdemeanors."
“伊利诺伊州共和党众议员保罗·芬利表示，应该有一种方法可以在不因犯罪或轻罪进行审判的情况下将一名法官撤职。”
OK, seriously, hearing this today, with the distance of a half century, this controversy feels so utterly about nothing-- so inconsequential.
好吧，说实话，在半个世纪之后的今天听到这个消息，这场争论感觉完全无关紧要——如此无关紧要。
It makes you wonder, is this what the Anthony Weiner story is going to sound like, a half century from now?
这让你想知道，半个世纪后安东尼·韦纳的故事听起来会是这样吗？
And yeah, OK, maybe it's a little icky for a 67-year-old to marry a 23-year-old, but these, you know, are consenting adults.
是的，好吧，对于一个 67 岁的人来说，嫁给一个 23 岁的人也许有点令人讨厌，但你知道，这些都是成年人。
These are people who are doing nothing against the laws of the United States of America, nothing that seems to merit congressional action.
这些人没有做任何违反美利坚合众国法律的事情，也没有做任何似乎值得国会采取行动的事情。
Anyway, Royko's column ends with several questions, he says, remain unanswered.
不管怎样，罗伊科的专栏最后提出了几个问题，他说这些问题仍然没有得到解答。
"How many marriages will a justice be allowed before he gets kicked off the bench?
“一名法官在被踢下替补席之前会允许多少次婚姻？
What will be an acceptable age difference in the marriage of a justice to a younger woman?
法官与年轻女子结婚时可接受的年龄差异是多少？
Will a justice be permitted to marry an older woman?
法官会被允许与年长的女性结婚吗？
What does the Alabama congressman consider cruelty to a wife?
阿拉巴马州国会议员如何看待对妻子的残忍行为？
Are tear gas, billy clubs, police dogs, and shotguns acceptable on the highway of matrimony, or only on the highway back home?"
催泪瓦斯、警棍、警犬和霰弹枪在婚姻的高速公路上可以接受吗，还是只在回家的高速公路上可以接受？”
[COUGHS] Studs Terkel Well, naturally, something happened here--
[咳嗽] Studs Terkel 嗯，当然，这里发生了一些事情——
[COUGHS] Yeah.
[咳嗽]是的。
Studs Terkel --when you wrote this.
Studs Terkel——当你写这篇文章的时候。
Yeah.
是的。
People got mad.
人们很生气。
The response was almost unanimously against my position.
反应几乎一致反对我的立场。
Now, what sort of madness?
现在，什么样的疯狂？
Mike Royko I wasn't surprised.
迈克·罗伊科 我并不感到惊讶。
Oh, well, there were some very funny letters.
哦，好吧，有一些非常有趣的信件。
I found out that apparently more people are concerned about the Supreme Court justice's marriage than they are about what he does the rest of the time that he's on the bench.
我发现显然更多的人关心最高法院法官的婚姻，而不是他在法官其余时间所做的事情。
One woman wrote me a letter and said that she surely wouldn't vote for him the next time he ran for election.
一位女士给我写了一封信，说她下次他竞选时肯定不会投票给他。
[LAUGHS] Mike Royko [LAUGHS] I don't think she'd heard of him before.
[笑] Mike Royko [笑] 我想她以前没听说过他。
And--
还有——
This next part of the recording I really just love.
我真的很喜欢录音的下一部分。
They haul in staffers at the radio station-- basically just grab them from down the hall-- to read some of the letters that Royko got after he wrote this column.
他们拉来广播电台的工作人员——基本上只是从大厅里抓起他们——来阅读罗伊科写完这篇专栏后收到的一些信件。
So now we got-- here are letters in response to Mike Royko's column, if we may start.
现在我们收到了——如果可以开始的话，这里是回复迈克·罗伊科专栏的信件。
And then Mike, perhaps, you could read your comment.
然后迈克，也许你可以阅读你的评论。
You have a little comment at the end of each one.
在每一篇文章的末尾你都会有一个小小的评论。
No, you read it.
不，你读过。
Studs Terkel No, you do-- no, the comment.
Studs Terkel 不，你知道——不，是评论。
I-- I can't read it.
我——我读不懂。
Studs Terkel All right.
螺柱特克尔 好吧。
So I will be Mike Royko.
所以我将是迈克·罗伊科。
This is Jimmy Jake, an older man.
这是吉米·杰克，一个年长的男人。
However, you read.
然而，你读了。
This is Jake, here.
这是杰克，在这里。
"It is hard to believe that you were serious in your column about Justice Douglas.
“很难相信你在关于道格拉斯法官的专栏中是认真的。
I'm 62.
我62岁了。
And ever since I read about this bit, I've been trying to figure out how I could tactfully and with justification approach some or even one of the cute young things that populate the building I'm in.
自从我读到这篇文章以来，我一直在努力弄清楚如何巧妙地、有理由地接近我所在大楼里的一些甚至一个可爱的年轻事物。
No matter how I phrase my approach, I seem to hear the same words.
无论我如何表达我的方法，我似乎听到的是同样的话。
'Why, you dirty old man.' Now then, this makes me wonder, how does a 67-year-old man make the approach?"
“哎呀，你这个肮脏的老家伙。”那么，这让我想知道，一个67岁的男人是如何做到这一点的呢？”
"Oh, well, I assume he said something like, will you marry me?
“哦，好吧，我猜他说了类似这样的话，你愿意嫁给我吗？
What have you been thinking of saying?"
你刚才想说什么？”
And then a girl named Jane was indignant.
然后一个叫简的女孩很愤怒。
Kathy?
凯西？
"You have an obligation to the reading public as well as to yourself to stick with the truth.
“你对读者公众和你自己都有义务坚持真理。
And truth comes from God.
真理来自上帝。
And what has Justice Douglas done with God's commandments?
道格拉斯法官对上帝的诫命做了什么？
People disgustingly, and rightly so, talk about Liz Taylor.
人们令人厌恶地谈论莉兹·泰勒，这也是理所当然的。
Douglas is just one step behind her, making a mockery of marriage.
道格拉斯只落后她一步，嘲讽婚姻。
Do you advocate what Liz Taylor has done?
你支持莉兹·泰勒所做的事情吗？
This country's laws are based on Christian doctrine and morality.
这个国家的法律以基督教教义和道德为基础。
And if a Supreme Court judge openly and continually disregards those laws, what is the common man to think about regarding the sanctity of marriage?"
如果最高法院法官公开并持续无视这些法律，那么普通人对婚姻的神圣性有何看法？”
All right, I'm going to stop the tape there.
好吧，我要把磁带停在那里。
I assume that they're laughing mostly because of the sheer moxie that their colleague is bringing to her performance of that letter.
我猜他们之所以笑，主要是因为他们的同事在写那封信时表现出了十足的勇气。
Studs is usually very tolerant of people's religious beliefs.
种马通常对人们的宗教信仰非常宽容。
Her letter does get to the heart of controversy, though.
不过，她的信确实触及了争议的核心。
Douglas was a very liberal voice on the liberal Warren Court.
道格拉斯在自由派沃伦法院中是一个非常自由派的声音。
And lots of conservatives saw this marriage as just another indication of permissive liberal values and what was wrong with the whole direction of the country in 1966.
许多保守派人士认为，这场婚姻只是放纵自由主义价值观的又一表现，也是 1966 年国家整体发展方向出了问题的表现。
Anyway, here's one more letter.
无论如何，还有一封信。
And finally, Marty Robinson was busy announcing.
最后，马蒂·罗宾逊忙着宣布。
Now, Marty, you're a doctor in Oak Park.
现在，马蒂，你是奥克帕克的一名医生。
"Now, your thinking in your Douglas column is the kind of fuzzy mindedness that is seized upon by many to do anything they wish in the name of freedom."
“现在，你在道格拉斯专栏中的想法是一种模糊的思想，许多人利用这种思想以自由的名义做任何他们想做的事情。”
[CHUCKLING] Studs Terkel Spoken like an authoritative doctor.
[咯咯笑] Studs Terkel 说话像一位权威医生。
And Mike replies, "Getting married four times isn't exactly my idea of having freedom." That's a good one.
迈克回答说：“结婚四次并不完全是我所认为的自由。”这是一件好事。
Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.
谢谢你们，女士们、先生们。
Now, Mike, did you receive any letters praising you for the column?
现在，迈克，您收到任何赞扬您专栏的信件吗？
Can I just say-- OK, it's annoying, the self-righteousness that people have in condemning this marriage, right?
我可以说——好吧，人们谴责这段婚姻的自以为是很烦人，对吧？
But it's also kind of harsh, the self-righteousness that Royko has in criticizing them.
但罗伊科批评他们时也有些严厉和自以为是。
After all, like, sure, what happens in this marriage is nobody's business but their own.
毕竟，当然，这段婚姻中发生的事情不关别人的事，只关他们自己的事。
But who among us, I would ask you, who among us hears about a 67-year-old man marrying somebody a third his age without feeling like a little twinge of judginess, right?
但我想问你，我们当中有谁在听说一名 67 岁的男人与年龄只有他三分之一的人结婚时，没有感到一点点评判的刺痛，对吧？
Like, who doesn't have feelings about that?
试问谁没有这样的感受呢？
Who is above that?
谁在上面？
Which is to say, it's hard minding your own business.
也就是说，你很难管好自己的事。
We're human beings.
我们是人类。
We're programmed to make judgments about every situation that we walk into and hear about.
我们生来就会对我们遇到和听到的每一种情况做出判断。
It is hard not to be nosy.
不爱管闲事是很难的。
It is hard not to want to know more.
很难不想了解更多。
That is being alive.
这就是活着。
And today on our program, we have stories of people not minding their own business.
今天在我们的节目中，我们讲述了人们不关心自己的事情的故事。
Well, actually, in these stories, it's big institutions not minding their business and busybodying their way into all kinds of stuff, into what kind of underwear is being worn by cheerleaders, into what is happening in jail hallways in cell blocks.
嗯，实际上，在这些故事中，大机构不关心自己的事情，忙着介入各种各样的事情，介入啦啦队员穿什么样的内衣，介入监狱牢房走廊里发生的事情。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Jill House Rules.
第一幕，吉尔之家规则。
In January of this year, a woman who went by the name of Lacy T filed a lawsuit against the Oakland raiders for failing to pay her minimum wage.
今年一月，一位名叫莱西·T (Lacy T) 的女士对奥克兰袭击者队提起诉讼，指控其未能支付她的最低工资。
Lacy was a cheerleader for the team, a rookie.
莱西是球队的拉拉队队长，是一名新秀。
NFL cheerleaders generally make about $1,500 for the entire season, although some make as little as $850 for the entire season.
NFL 啦啦队整个赛季的收入一般约为 1,500 美元，尽管有些拉拉队整个赛季的收入只有 850 美元。
Just a few weeks after Lacy, another cheerleader filed a suit, this one against the Cincinnati Bengals.
就在莱西事件发生几周后，另一位拉拉队长提起诉讼，这次诉讼的对手是辛辛那提猛虎队。
Then, cheerleaders with the Buffalo Bills, New York Jets, Tampa Bay Buccaneers, women from five NFL cheerleaders teams were suing for higher pay.
随后，布法罗比尔队、纽约喷射机队、坦帕湾海盗队的拉拉队员以及来自 NFL 五个拉拉队的女队员们起诉要求提高工资。
What's interesting is that the way the cheerleaders are trying to win is to argue that the teams exert so much control over their lives, they are so up in their business, that the cheerleaders deserve to be considered employees.
有趣的是，啦啦队试图获胜的方式是争辩说，团队对他们的生活施加了如此大的控制，他们在自己的业务中如此出色，以至于啦啦队应该被视为员工。
If they are considered employees, then they have to be paid minimum wage.
如果他们被视为雇员，那么他们必须支付最低工资。
So the lawsuits also include a bunch of internal documents that describe how much up in their business the franchises are.
因此，诉讼还包括一堆内部文件，描述特许经营权在其业务中的地位。
Here's Chana Joffe-Walt.
请听查娜·乔夫-沃尔特的报道。
It was Page 18 that really got me, the Buffalo Jills lawsuit.
真正让我着迷的是第 18 页，即 Buffalo Jills 诉讼。
The team is the Buffalo Bills, so the cheerleaders are the Jills.
球队是布法罗比尔队，所以啦啦队是吉尔队。
And on Page 18 of these legal documents, they're describing a Jills rulebook the team gives out to each squad member.
在这些法律文件的第 18 页上，他们描述了球队向每个队员分发的吉尔斯规则手册。
It says, quote, "The extensive rulebook set forth by defendants includes rules on how much bread to eat at a formal dinner, how to properly eat soup, how much to tip restaurant waiters, wedding etiquette, how to properly wash intimate areas, and how often to change tampons." And then, right here as evidence, they include the actual handbook-- the "glamour requirement section," two pages on conversation starters, 17 rules for what they call "general hygiene and lady body maintenance."
它引用说，“被告提出的广泛规则手册包括关于正式晚餐吃多少面包、如何正确喝汤、给餐厅服务员多少小费、婚礼礼仪、如何正确清洗私密区域以及多久更换卫生棉条的规则。”然后，作为证据，他们包括了实际的手册——“魅力要求部分”、两页的谈话开头，以及他们所谓的“一般卫生和女性身体保养”的 17 条规则。
I think what's so bizarre about reading these rules as an outsider, someone who works in an office every day, is it's really hard to imagine your boss talking to you about this stuff.
我认为，作为一个每天在办公室工作的局外人，阅读这些规则的奇怪之处在于，很难想象你的老板会和你谈论这些东西。
Let me show you what I mean with my boss.
让我告诉你我对老板的意思。
I asked my boss, Ira, to read some of these rules.
我请我的老板艾拉阅读其中一些规则。
Hey, Ira.
嘿，艾拉。
Hey there, Chana.
嘿，查娜。
Chana Joffe- Walt OK.
查纳·乔夫-沃尔特 好的。
So imagine your boss walking into your cubicle and saying--
想象一下你的老板走进你的小隔间说——
All right, here we go.
好吧，我们开始吧。
"Stay away from frosted lipsticks and eye shadows.
“远离磨砂唇膏和眼影。
Management will determine your proper color analysis.
管理层将确定您正确的颜色分析。
No slouching breasts-- support as needed."
乳房不要下垂——根据需要提供支撑。”
Yeah, that's weird.
是的，这很奇怪。
Ira Glass That's weird.
艾拉·格拉斯 这很奇怪。
Keep going, though.
不过，继续吧。
Keep going.
继续前进。
So here are some more actual rules from actual cheerleader handbooks.
因此，这里有一些来自实际啦啦队手册的更多实际规则。
"Never apply makeup or fuss with hair front of people.
“永远不要在别人面前化妆或乱搞头发。
If it's absolutely necessary you reapply, freshen up, go to the ladies' room.
如果绝对有必要，您可以重新涂抹、梳洗一番，然后去女洗手间。
And do not hang out and talk while there.
并且不要在那里闲逛和交谈。
Beware, other women will judge you in there, too.
请注意，其他女性也会在那里评判你。
Always say excuse me when you burp, sneeze, or cough, even if you think there isn't anyone around.
当你打嗝、打喷嚏或咳嗽时，即使你认为周围没有人，也要说对不起。
Napkins-- when you leave the table at the end of the meal, place your napkin loosely next to your plate.
餐巾——用餐结束后离开餐桌时，将餐巾松松地放在盘子旁边。
It should not be crumpled or twisted, which would reveal untidiness or nervousness, respectively."
它不应该被弄皱或扭曲，这分别会暴露出不整洁或紧张。”
There's a lot of rules about the cheerleaders' bodies, which I get.
我明白，关于啦啦队的身体有很多规则。
It's a job that depends on your body.
这是一项取决于你的身体的工作。
But these rules get deep into your mind, like these ones.
但这些规则会像这些规则一样深入你的脑海。
Read these, Ira.
读这些，艾拉。
OK.
好的。
"Please, think before you speak and always pay attention and listen.
“请在说话之前三思，始终集中注意力并倾听。
Ask yourself, 'Is it likely that this person will be interested in what I'm about to bring up?' Do not be overly opinionated about anything.
问问自己，“这个人是否有可能对我将要提出的内容感兴趣？”不要对任何事情过于固执己见。
Do not complain about anything.
不要抱怨任何事。
Ever hang out with a whiner?
曾经和一个爱发牢骚的人一起出去玩吗？
It's exhausting and boring.
真是又累又无聊。
Watch other poor manners or nervous habits, such as nail biting, knuckle-slash-neck cracking, excessive sniffling, and too many arm movements."
注意其他不良举止或紧张习惯，例如咬指甲、扭指关节、扭颈、过度抽鼻子和过多的手臂动作。”
I like imagining what the author was picturing with that last one.
我喜欢想象作者在最后一幅作品中描绘的情景。
"Too many arm movements."
“手臂动作太多了。”
Yeah.
是的。
Chana Joffe-Walt OK.
查纳·乔夫-沃尔特 好的。
So I didn't really know what to make of these.
所以我真的不知道该怎么做这些。
It's hard to imagine the NFL players have handbooks that outline how to eat bread politely and wash their genitals.
很难想象 NFL 球员有手册概述如何礼貌地吃面包和清洗生殖器。
But I don't know.
但我不知道。
Maybe no cheerleaders actually talk about these rules, or no one enforces them.
也许没有啦啦队队员真正谈论这些规则，或者没有人执行这些规则。
Maybe cheerleading manuals are essentially employee handbooks that nobody ever reads.
也许啦啦队手册本质上是没有人读过的员工手册。
So I ran a bunch of them by a couple current and former cheerleaders, who told me, yeah, we had lots of rules like that.
所以我由几个现任和前任拉拉队队员管理了一堆，他们告诉我，是的，我们有很多这样的规则。
And we knew those rules.
我们知道这些规则。
But most of them also added, the rules were not a big deal.
但他们中的大多数人也补充说，这些规则没什么大不了的。
Carly Walko cheered for the Redskins and the Eagles.
卡莉·沃科为红皮队和老鹰队加油。
I mean, of course some of them were frustrating, like your nails a certain length or whatever.
我的意思是，当然有些是令人沮丧的，比如你的指甲有一定的长度或其他什么。
And, I mean, you just have to believe that every rule's there because there's been a circumstance in the past that has had to put it there.
而且，我的意思是，你只需要相信每条规则都在那里，因为过去的情况不得不把它放在那里。
So you would think, nail length, who cares?
所以你会想，指甲的长度，谁在乎呢？
Everyone keeps their nails relatively reasonably long.
每个人的指甲都保持相对相当长的长度。
There must have been some girl along the way who had like 8-inch nails and probably stabbed some girl in the back doing a lift or something.
一路上肯定有某个女孩的指甲有八英寸左右，可能在某个搭电梯或做其他事情的女孩背后刺伤了她。
And so now they have to say you can't have your nails be past a certain point.
所以现在他们不得不说你的指甲不能超过某个点。
Which seems silly, but someone 10 years ago got hurt on the field because a girl's nails were too long.
这看起来很愚蠢，但十年前有人因为女孩的指甲太长而在球场上受伤。
Do you know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
Other cheerleaders I talked to said the same thing.
我采访过的其他啦啦队员也说了同样的话。
The rules may seem weird from the outside, but really, they're not.
这些规则从外面看起来可能很奇怪，但实际上并非如此。
And they didn't have a problem with them.
他们对此没有任何问题。
But I wasn't confident that was a completely honest take.
但我不确信这是完全诚实的看法。
Cheerleaders, after all, are hired to promote their teams.
毕竟，啦啦队是被雇佣来宣传他们的球队的。
That's their job.
那是他们的工作。
So even if they did find the rules stupid or way up in their business, why would they talk to some stranger about that on the radio?
因此，即使他们确实发现这些规则很愚蠢或者对他们的业务来说很重要，他们为什么要在广播中与一些陌生人谈论这些呢？
But I realized I do have someone to ask about these documents who knows this world and could speak with me honestly about it-- my colleague, This American Life producer Robyn Semien.
但我意识到我确实有一个人可以询问这些文件，他了解这个世界，并且可以诚实地与我谈论它——我的同事，《美国生活》制片人罗宾·塞米恩(Robyn Semien)。
Robyn was an NBA cheerleader.
罗宾是一名 NBA 啦啦队长。
I had a great time on the Lakers.
我在湖人队度过了一段美好的时光。
I really did.
我真的做到了。
It was fun.
很有趣。
It was fun.
很有趣。
Robyn was a Laker Girl in college.
罗宾在大学时是湖人队的女孩。
After 20 years of dance classes and cheer camps, she made it to the Lakers, which is a big deal.
经过 20 年的舞蹈课程和啦啦队训练营后，她进入了湖人队，这是一件大事。
I feel like I need to say that, because Robyn will not.
我觉得我有必要这么说，因为罗宾不会。
She made me ask three times before she told me she beat out hundreds of other women for her spot.
她让我问了三遍才告诉我她击败了数百名其他女性获得了这个职位。
In the end, it's 16 of us were chosen-- three brunettes and three blonds and two redheads, maybe.
最后，我们 16 个人被选中——也许是三个黑发女郎、三个金发女郎和两个红发女郎。
And so I was one of two black girls that were hired.
所以我是被雇用的两个黑人女孩之一。
So, like, I knew that this was just kind of-- that there were roles, that I was auditioning for a part.
所以，就像，我知道这只是——有一些角色，我正在试镜一个角色。
And that was fine.
那很好。
When I read the guidelines and handbooks to Robyn, she just kind of shrugged.
当我向罗宾读指南和手册时，她只是耸了耸肩。
We were there representing an enormous franchise, she told me.
她告诉我，我们在那里代表着一个巨大的特许经营权。
Of course there were rules about everything.
当然，凡事都有规则。
Yeah, there were tons of rules.
是的，有很多规则。
A main one was you can't date the players, which meant-- like, you can't date the players, which really meant you can't sleep with the players.
主要的一个是你不能和球员约会，这意味着——就像，你不能和球员约会，这实际上意味着你不能和球员一起睡觉。
But also you can't date them.
但你也不能和他们约会。
But also you can't be seen anywhere alone with them.
但在任何地方都看不到你和他们单独在一起。
Like, you cannot-- there's just no crossover between what we are doing as the Laker Girls and what the Laker team was doing.
就像，你不能——我们作为湖人女孩所做的事情和湖人队所做的事情之间没有交叉。
So you didn't have any relationships with any of the players.
所以你和任何球员都没有任何关系。
None.
没有任何。
I mean, none.
我的意思是，没有。
Chana Joffe-Walt Robyn says everyone knew that rule.
查纳·乔夫-沃尔特·罗宾 (Chana Joffe-Walt Robyn) 说每个人都知道这条规则。
And they didn't need to read it in a handbook, because they had Lisa.
他们不需要阅读手册，因为他们有丽莎。
Lisa Estrada was and still is the director of the Laker Girls.
丽莎·埃斯特拉达（Lisa Estrada）过去是，现在仍然是湖人女孩队的总监。
It was Lisa who told the squad which kind of lipstick to wear, how much, which mascara, how long their nails should be.
是丽莎告诉队员们要涂哪种口红、涂多少、用哪种睫毛膏、指甲应该有多长。
It was Lisa who did weigh-ins before games.
比赛前称体重的是丽莎。
It was Lisa who told Robyn to straighten her hair so it'd look like Suzanne Somers from Three's Company .
是丽莎让罗宾把头发拉直，这样看起来就像《三人公司》中的苏珊娜·萨默斯。
Lisa was a boss you remember.
丽莎是你记得的老板。
She was-- I mean, she's a spitfire.
她是——我的意思是，她是个脾气暴躁的人。
And she was really funny, and also kind of really kind of scary.
她真的很有趣，也有点可怕。
In my mind she was, like, spending all day every day like in some meeting with, like, Jerry Buss like the owner of the Lakers.
在我看来，她每天一整天都在与湖人队老板杰里·巴斯（Jerry Buss）会面。
Just she was always seeming to come from some important meeting or something important about our dances or our image or what the Lakers organization needed from us meant.
只是她似乎总是来自一些重要的会议或一些关于我们的舞蹈或我们的形象或湖人队需要我们的意思的重要事情。
When they went out on appearances-- say a Staples office supply store would want four Laker girls for their grand opening-- they would offer good money.
当她们外出露面时——比如说一家斯台普斯办公用品店想要四名湖人女孩来参加他们的盛大开业——她们会开出很多钱。
And Lisa would say, you can go but--
丽莎会说，你可以走了，但是——
I expect that you all conduct yourselves appropriately.
我希望你们大家都能举止得体。
And don't ever forget what you're representing.
并且永远不要忘记你所代表的是什么。
What were you representing?
你代表什么？
Robyn Semien I don't-- um, class.
Robyn Semien 我不——嗯，同学们。
You were classy.
你很优雅。
Robyn Semien Yes.
罗宾·塞米恩 是的。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Kind of.
有点儿。
It just meant that we weren't slutty.
这只是意味着我们不放荡。
There was a line.
有一条线。
Lisa wanted the line to be blindingly bright.
丽莎希望这条线亮得令人眼花缭乱。
And that's what the rules were about.
这就是规则的意义所在。
One side of the line was classy.
该线的一侧很优雅。
The other side was slutty.
另一边却很放荡。
Lisa wanted you to be on the right side of the line.
丽莎希望你站在队伍的右侧。
And that made sense to Robyn.
这对罗宾来说很有意义。
I feel like in general, as a dancer, if you're, like, trying to make it as a professional dancer in Los Angeles, you're coming across a lot of questionable opportunities.
我觉得总的来说，作为一名舞者，如果你想成为洛杉矶的一名职业舞者，你会遇到很多可疑的机会。
You're like, do I or don't I want to put on stilettos and a bikini and be in that music video, because I could totally do it, but-- so it felt a little bit like a Disney version of-- yeah, classy but, like, sexy classy.
你会想，我是否想穿上高跟鞋和比基尼出现在音乐录影带中，因为我完全可以做到，但是——所以感觉有点像迪士尼版本——是的，优雅，但是，性感优雅。
Sure.
当然。
[LAUGHS] Robyn Semien Yes.
[笑] 罗宾·塞米恩 是的。
Sequins and hot pink all over your face.
脸上满是亮片和亮粉色。
Whatever you want.
任何你想要的。
Right.
正确的。
But don't sleep with any of the players.
但不要和任何球员睡觉。
But do not fornicate with the players, yeah.
但不要与球员通奸，是的。
It made sense to Robyn that they shouldn't sleep with the players.
罗宾觉得他们不应该和球员们一起睡觉是有道理的。
It made sense that Lisa told her what kind of push-up bra to wear and to get it specifically from Frederick's of Hollywood.
丽莎告诉她要穿什么样的俯卧撑胸罩，并专门从好莱坞的弗雷德里克那里购买，这是有道理的。
It made sense that Lisa wanted her to be careful while dancing that she was doing her girl-next-door face and not a diva sex face.
丽莎希望她在跳舞时要小心，因为她在做邻家女孩的脸，而不是天后的性感脸，这是有道理的。
That all seemed reasonable.
这一切看起来都很合理。
But Lisa had a lot of rules.
但丽莎有很多规则。
They didn't all make sense.
它们都没有道理。
One of the rules that we had was that we weren't allowed to drink water out of water bottles.
我们的规则之一是不允许我们喝水瓶里的水。
Why?
为什么？
Robyn Semien This was like a rule.
Robyn Semien 这就像一条规则。
Every single rule came from Lisa.
每一条规则都来自丽莎。
Totally, like, normal-but-a-little-intimidating Lisa would come to us and say, all right, no. OK, but no drinking water at these appearances.
完全就像，正常但有点吓人的丽莎会来找我们说，好吧，不。好的，但是这些地方没有饮用水。
And then she explained that it was like because it was too provocative to drink out of a water bottle.
然后她解释说，因为用水瓶喝水太刺激了。
Like, it just could connote something that would be--
就像，它可能意味着一些东西——
What's provocative about it?
这有什么好挑衅的？
Robyn Semien Yeah, I don't know.
罗宾·塞米恩：是的，我不知道。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't think anyone was like, what do you mean?
我想没有人会这样说，你什么意思？
We were all just like, yeah, OK.
我们都说，是的，好吧。
Immediately, like, I'm trying to imagine what she's imagining.
我立即尝试想象她在想象什么。
And it just suddenly seems like a everything gets slow motion and we're like, drinking water in this way that is just inappropriate.
突然间，一切似乎都变得慢动作，我们就像这样喝水，这是不合适的。
It's like suddenly, like, rated R water drinking.
就像突然间，喝了R级水一样。
The word Robyn remembers Lisa using was "porny."
罗宾记得丽莎使用的词是“色情”。
Yeah, it's porny.
是的，这很色情。
Yeah.
是的。
Or at least to Lisa it is, or someone in the greater organization at one of her many afternoon meetings has told her, like, whoa, slow down on all the water drinking.
或者至少对丽莎来说是这样，或者在她的许多下午会议之一上，更大组织中的某个人告诉她，哇，放慢喝水的速度。
Let's keep it wholesome.
让我们保持它的健康。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我不知道。
If there is a line between classy and porny, cheerleading more than any other job I can think of is pushing right up against that line.
如果说优雅和色情之间有一条界限的话，那么啦啦队比我能想到的任何其他工作都更能打破这条界限。
It is dancing with pom-poms all over the line.
整条线上都在舞动着绒球。
So Robyn says the rules were there to keep things from accidentally crossing over.
所以罗宾说，规则的存在是为了防止事情意外发生。
They're there to provide context.
他们的作用是提供背景信息。
This thing we are doing is professional and classy.
我们正在做的事情是专业和优雅的。
So even when Lisa's rules seemed a little crazy, Robyn went with it.
因此，即使丽莎的规则看起来有点疯狂，罗宾也同意了。
She was trying to keep us safe-- appropriate and protected.
她试图保护我们的安全——适当的和受到保护的。
Dd you feel that?
你有这样的感觉吗？
Did you appreciate, like, she's looking out for us.
你是否感激她在照顾我们？
Yeah, for sure.
是的，当然。
Yeah.
是的。
She was kind of feminist protective of us.
她是一种保护我们的女权主义者。
Everything that could have been, like, severely oversexed or really kind of disgusting, there was some kind of safety in place.
一切可能发生的事情，比如严重的性欲过剩或者真的有点恶心，都有某种安全措施。
And that was Lisa.
那就是丽莎。
Robyn Semien Oh, and that was Lisa.
罗宾·塞米恩（Robyn Semien）哦，那是丽莎。
Yeah.
是的。
Oh my God, how are you?
天哪，你好吗？
Lisa Estrada Fine.
丽莎·埃斯特拉达 很好。
How are you?
你好吗？
I'm great, thanks.
我很棒，谢谢。
Lisa Estrada Good.
丽莎·埃斯特拉达 好。
I know, I saw--
我知道，我看到——
20 years after she left the team, Robyn called her old coach to say, I'm talking about you on the radio as my protector.
离开球队 20 年后，罗宾打电话给她的老教练说，我在广播中谈论你，你是我的保护者。
Do you think about yourself that way?
你也这样看待自己吗？
Yeah, I mean, if people need to say that I'm, you know, mama hen, or I act like a mom, then I'm totally fine with that.
是的，我的意思是，如果人们需要说我是母鸡妈妈，或者我表现得像个妈妈，那么我完全同意。
And I think that I should be here to protect them.
我认为我应该在这里保护他们。
Sometimes it's a bit hard coming into a sports world with them.
有时和他们一起进入体育世界有点困难。
Sports world is a man's world, kind of.
体育世界是男人的世界。
And there's definitely the stigma of they're just eye candy.
而且肯定有一种耻辱，那就是它们只是养眼的东西。
And they go out, and they shake their pom-poms.
他们出去，摇晃他们的绒球。
Or they go out, and they dance, or whatever it is.
或者他们出去跳舞，或者别的什么。
But I wanted everyone in Los Angeles to understand they're not only dancing girls, they are so much more than that.
但我希望洛杉矶的每个人都明白，她们不仅仅是舞女，她们的意义远不止于此。
And they should be looked at as professional women.
她们应该被视为职业女性。
Lisa says she doesn't remember calling water bottles porny.
丽莎说她不记得称水瓶为色情。
But she's sure if she did, it was only because she wanted the women to be seen as professional.
但她确信，如果她这样做了，那只是因为她希望这些女性被视为专业人士。
And Robyn says it worked.
罗宾说这很有效。
Yes, having a rule to tell you how often to change your tampon is ridiculous.
是的，制定一条规则来告诉您多久更换一次卫生棉条是荒谬的。
But taken as a group, these rules made the whole thing into a job.
但作为一个整体，这些规则使整个事情变成了一项工作。
They did make everything feel professional.
他们确实让一切都感觉很专业。
There is something wholesome about going to an NBA basketball game.
观看 NBA 篮球比赛是有好处的。
There's families and kids.
有家人和孩子。
And it's bright.
而且很明亮。
And it's familiar.
而且很熟悉。
And yes, and we were like the dance team that was wearing the logo that was printed on the outside of this massive stadium.
是的，我们就像舞蹈队一样，戴着印在这个巨大体育场外面的标志。
It just felt like, OK, we're all in it.
只是感觉，好吧，我们都在其中。
Like we all kind of know what it is.
就像我们都知道它是什么一样。
And maybe we're like the sexualized talent entertainment component to all this, but it feels very rated G.
也许我们就像这一切中性感的人才娱乐成分，但感觉非常受好评。
It felt like that almost all the time.
几乎一直都有这样的感觉。
Almost.
几乎。
The job was complicated at times.
有时工作很复杂。
Like you'd see little-- you'd see it at the games sometimes.
就像你很少看到一样——有时你会在比赛中看到它。
Like, you would be with Lakers fans who were just grown men with, like, their young sons, who would say, like, will you pose with my son?
就像，你会和湖人队球迷在一起，他们都是成年人，带着年幼的儿子，他们会说，比如，你愿意和我儿子合影吗？
And you're like, yeah, sure.
你会说，是的，当然。
And then you'd, like, get in a little huddle for the picture.
然后你们就会围成一团拍照。
And then the guy would say, OK, say sexy.
然后那个人会说，好吧，说性感。
And you're like, uh, that seems inappropriate.
你就像，呃，这似乎不合适。
The guy would say that to his kid, would say--
那家伙会对他的孩子这么说，会说——
He would just say it to us like that.
他只会这样对我们说。
And you're like, why don't you just say "say cheese"?
你会想，为什么不直接说“说奶酪”呢？
And then you kind of remember.
然后你就记得了。
You're like, but actually, I'm standing here, like, in my push-up bra, like, wearing clothes close to what I would wear on the beach in a stadium with tons of other people wearing a lot more clothes than I am.
你就像，但实际上，我站在这里，就像穿着俯卧撑胸罩，穿着接近我在体育场海滩上穿的衣服，还有很多其他人穿着比我多得多的衣服。
Like, you'd have these moments of being like, oh.
就像，你会有这样的时刻，哦。
And there was the time they did the event at a bar called Pinky's.
有一次他们在一家名为 Pinky's 的酒吧举办了这次活动。
It was a pool hall where all the tables were covered in pink felt.
那是一个台球厅，所有的桌子都铺着粉红色的毛毡。
The Laker Girls did their routines, but it was late and the men were drunk.
湖人队女孩们完成了她们的例行公事，但已经很晚了，男人们都喝醉了。
Suddenly, you're, like, doing dance routines in like a smoky pool hall packed with kind of screaming men.
突然间，你就像在一个烟雾缭绕的台球厅里跳着舞蹈，里面挤满了尖叫的男人。
And I feel like I had a-- like, something switched for me.
我觉得我好像有某种东西为我改变了。
Like, I saw what I was doing in a different way.
就像，我以不同的方式看待我正在做的事情。
It was just like one of those times where I thought, this feels like stripping right now.
就像有一次我想，这感觉就像现在脱衣一样。
But then the event at Pinky's was over.
但随后 Pinky's 的活动就结束了。
And Robyn says those awkward moments usually faded quickly, because she loved the job.
罗宾说，那些尴尬的时刻通常很快就会消失，因为她热爱这份工作。
She loved what she was doing.
她热爱她所做的事情。
And that, I guess, is what was still confusing to me.
我想，这就是我仍然感到困惑的地方。
What is to love?
什么是爱？
You've got a coach who's up in your business, all of your business.
你有一位教练，他负责你的事情，你所有的事情。
You don't make a lot of money-- although in Robyn's case, the NBA pays a lot better than the NFL.
你赚不了很多钱——尽管就罗宾而言，NBA 的薪水比 NFL 高很多。
But still, it's not player money.
但这仍然不是玩家的钱。
You can't gain three pounds.
你不可能增重三磅。
You can't even talk to the attractive famous young men right next to you.
你甚至不能和你旁边那些有魅力的著名年轻人交谈。
You can't drink bottled water.
你不能喝瓶装水。
The more I learned, the more cheerleading sounds like walking through airport security over and over every day, just the feeling of being heavily policed with a bunch of unexplained arbitrary rules that are maybe there to keep you safe, but you don't really get why.
我了解得越多，听起来就越像是每天一遍又一遍地穿过机场安检，只是一种被一堆无法解释的武断规则严密监视的感觉，这些规则可能是为了保证你的安全，但你并不真正明白为什么。
And just, isn't it supposed to be fun?
只是，这不是应该很有趣吗？
Is it fun?
好玩吗？
Robyn looks at me kind of pityingly when I ask about this.
当我问起这个问题时，罗宾有点怜悯地看着我。
Is it fun?
好玩吗？
Robyn Semien I don't know that I can compare anything to being on stage in front of-- like, in a stadium under those lights in front of, like, 25,000 screaming fans.
罗宾·塞米恩（Robyn Semien） 我不知道有什么可以与在舞台上，在灯光下，在 25,000 名尖叫的球迷面前进行比较。
Even when I think about it now, it doesn't exactly feel like me.
即使我现在想起来，那感觉也不太像我。
It's a little out-of-body.
有点脱离身体了。
In like an awesome way?
以一种很棒的方式？
Robyn Semien In an amazing way, yeah.
Robyn Semien 以一种令人惊奇的方式，是的。
In an amazing way.
以一种令人惊奇的方式。
Robyn was part of the most elite professional level of cheerleading.
罗宾是最精英的专业啦啦队成员之一。
She was dancing with people who were auditioning to go on tour with Madonna.
她正在和那些正在试镜与麦当娜一起巡演的人一起跳舞。
It was Los Angeles.
那是洛杉矶。
There were celebrities everywhere.
到处都是名人。
Thousands of people came to games.
数千人前来观看比赛。
She got to sit courtside next to Denzel Washington.
她坐在场边丹泽尔·华盛顿旁边。
In other words, yes, moron, it was fun.
换句话说，是的，白痴，这很有趣。
It was really fun.
真的很有趣。
In those moments, the rules and Lisa were not on her mind.
在那些时刻，规则和丽莎不在她的脑海里。
Chana Joffe-Walt is one of the producers of our program.
查纳·乔夫-沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt) 是我们节目的制作人之一。
Coming up, the LA County Sheriff's Department loses an inmate in its own jail system on purpose.
接下来，洛杉矶县治安部门故意在自己的监狱系统中失去一名囚犯。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme, bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，我们每周的节目都会选择一个主题，为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's program, Mind Your Own Business, AKA mind your own beeswax, AKA butt out, buzz off, MYOB.
今天的节目，管好你自己的事，又名管好你自己的蜂蜡，又名屁股出去，滚开，MYOB。
This is an A and B conversation, so C, your way out.
这是A和B的对话，所以C，你的出路。
Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye when you do not notice the plank in your own?
为什么你只看到你兄弟眼中的刺，却没有注意到自己眼中的梁木呢？
Don't be dipping in the Kool-Aid when you don't even know the flavor.
当你甚至不知道它的味道时，不要沉浸在酷爱饮料中。
And a favorite in my family, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
我家人最喜欢的是，玻璃房子里的人不应该扔石头。
We've arrived at Act Two of our program.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two, Cop Versus Cop.
第二幕，警察对警察。
Well, there's been a big, messy, fascinating story unfolding in Los Angeles for a while involving two big law enforcement agencies, the LA County Sheriff's Department, which is huge, and the FBI.
好吧，一段时间以来，洛杉矶上演了一个巨大的、混乱的、引人入胜的故事，涉及两个大型执法机构：规模庞大的洛杉矶县治安部门和联邦调查局。
A secret investigation got exposed.
一项秘密调查被曝光。
There were accusations and counter-accusations, clandestine recordings.
有指控和反指控，有秘密录音。
And by the end, a bunch of people's careers were over.
到最后，很多人的职业生涯结束了。
At the heart of it was this-- nobody likes to be watched and reported on, judged by some outsider.
其核心是——没有人喜欢被局外人监视、报道和评判。
No person likes it, and no organization likes it.
没有人喜欢它，也没有组织喜欢它。
Nancy Updike has the story.
南希·厄普代克讲述了这个故事。
Employee Christmas parties are so often associated with bad behavior and just unwise choices that I believe they rival wedding toasts.
员工圣诞派对常常与不良行为和不明智的选择联系在一起，我相信它们可以与婚礼祝酒相媲美。
About three years ago, Robert Faturechi, a reporter for the LA Times , heard about a Christmas party thrown by the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department.
大约三年前，《洛杉矶时报》记者罗伯特·法图奇 (Robert Faturechi) 听说洛杉矶县治安部门举办了一场圣诞晚会。
At this beautiful banquet hall, there had been a massive fight between deputies.
在这个美丽的宴会厅里，代表们之间发生了一场大规模的争斗。
This fight was not an argument.
这场战斗不是争论。
It was a fistfight among sheriff's deputies.
这是治安官代表之间的一场斗殴。
And in Los Angeles County, sheriff's deputies are guards in the county jails, which does not mean that they're watching a few drunks sleep it off in a holding cell.
在洛杉矶县，治安官的副手是县监狱的看守，这并不意味着他们正在看着几个醉汉在拘留室里睡觉。
This is the largest jail system in the country-- over 19,000 inmates at the moment.
这是该国最大的监狱系统——目前有超过 19,000 名囚犯。
So Robert heard about the deputies' brawl at the Christmas party.
于是罗伯特听说了议员们在圣诞晚会上发生的争吵。
And he started looking into what had happened.
他开始调查发生了什么事。
What he heard was that one group of deputies had beat up two other deputies.
他听到的是一组代表殴打了另外两名代表。
And the deputies who delivered the beating all worked on the same floor in the Sheriff Department's main jail.
实施殴打的警员都在治安部门主监狱的同一层楼工作。
It's called the 3000 floor.
这就是所谓的3000层。
And I heard word that before the fight broke out, when they were exchanging words, these guys were throwing three-finger hand signs, similar to gang signs.
我听说在打斗爆发之前，当他们互相交谈时，这些家伙会扔出三指手势，类似于帮派手势。
There were rumors that they described themselves as the 3000 boys.
有传言称他们称自己为“3000男孩”。
Mhm.
嗯。
Robert Faturechi So they were representing affiliation to a specific geographical area, the third floor of their jail.
Robert Faturechi：所以他们代表了特定地理区域的隶属关系，即监狱的三楼。
So in a lot of ways, they were like a gang.
所以在很多方面，他们就像一个团伙。
Robert wondered, if they're beating up their fellow deputies, how are they treating inmates?
罗伯特想知道，如果他们殴打其他警员，他们会如何对待囚犯？
This turned out to be a very good question, and also just the beginning.
事实证明这是一个非常好的问题，也仅仅是一个开始。
Because the first thing Robert found out was yes, most likely, some of the deputies who beat up other deputies were using extraordinary amounts of force on inmates.
因为罗伯特发现的第一件事是，是的，很可能，一些殴打其他警员的警员对囚犯使用了异常大量的武力。
But it wasn't just the guys at the Christmas party.
但不仅仅是圣诞晚会上的人们。
Robert dug into public records about use of force reports in the jail, and later, internal Sheriff's Department documents-- these had never been made public-- that showed that the department knew that brutality against inmates was a real problem in the jails, that deputies were beating inmates, fabricating stories to justify beatings, that investigations after the fact were shoddy.
罗伯特深入研究了有关监狱中使用武力报告的公开记录，以及后来的治安部门内部文件（这些文件从未公开过），这些文件表明该部门知道对囚犯的暴力行为是监狱中的一个真正问题，警员们殴打囚犯，编造故事来为殴打行为辩护，事后调查是粗制滥造的。
Robert was also hearing more and more from sources inside the Sheriff's Department.
罗伯特也从警长部门内部的消息来源听到了越来越多的消息。
He published a series of stories with headlines like, "LA County Deputy Says He Was Forced to Beat Mentally Ill Inmate" and "Monitor Says She Saw Deputies Beat Inmate, quote, 'Like a Punching Bag.'"
他发表了一系列标题为“洛杉矶县警官说他被迫殴打患有精神疾病的囚犯”和“监控员说她看到警员殴打囚犯，引用“就像打沙袋一样”的故事。”
Robert talked to a former commander who said there were deputies who really did seem to have formed their own gangs in the jail.
罗伯特与一名前指挥官交谈，后者说监狱里确实有一些警员似乎已经组建了自己的帮派。
I mean, this was a high-ranking guy.
我的意思是，这是一个高级人物。
He told us that deputies were literally breaking inmates' bones.
他告诉我们，警员们简直是在打断囚犯的骨头。
In order to get membership into these gang-like groups of deputies, they had to break inmates' bones.
为了加入这些像帮派一样的代表团体，他们必须打断囚犯的骨头。
And, I mean, that's the kind of thing that if I had heard before all of this started to unfold, I would never believe it.
而且，我的意思是，如果我在这一切开始发生之前听到这种事情，我永远不会相信。
But this was a department commander telling us this.
但这是一位部门指挥官告诉我们的。
I mean, this guy was in charge of hundreds of deputies.
我的意思是，这个家伙负责数百名代表。
He's someone who came up through the system who has a lot of loyalty to the system.
他是从体制中走出来的人，对体制非常忠诚。
At the same time that Robert was digging all of this up, another organization was also looking into the jails-- not a news organization, the FBI.
在罗伯特挖掘这一切的同时，另一个组织也在调查监狱——不是新闻机构，联邦调查局。
The date is August 30, 2010 at 9:45 AM.
日期是 2010 年 8 月 30 日上午 9:45。
This is Special Agent Leah Marx.
我是特工利亚·马克思。
I will soon begin a consensual recording with target William David Courson, Junior at Lazy Daisy Cafe in Los Angeles.
我很快就会与目标威廉·大卫·库尔森（William David Courson）在洛杉矶的 Lazy Daisy Cafe 咖啡馆开始一段双方同意的录音。
Leah Marx was the lead FBI investigator looking into inmate abuse at the LA jails.
莉亚·马克思 (Leah Marx) 是调查洛杉矶监狱虐待囚犯事件的联邦调查局首席调查员。
Just to clarify, when she says "consensual recording," that's FBI speak.
只是澄清一下，当她说“双方同意的录音”时，这是联邦调查局的说法。
It means she's consenting.
这意味着她同意了。
The other guy doesn't know she's recording.
另一个人不知道她在录音。
Marx had been going out to the main jail in downtown LA for a while, investigating corruption and brutality by deputies against inmates.
马克思已经前往洛杉矶市中心的主要监狱一段时间了，调查警员对囚犯的腐败和残暴行为。
But the Sheriff's Department had no idea that's what she was looking into.
但治安部门并不知道她正在调查的是什么。
FBI agents go to jails all the time to meet with informants.
联邦调查局特工经常去监狱会见线人。
Agent Marx told one deputy at the jail she was working on a human trafficking case.
马克思探员告诉监狱的一名警员，她正在调查一起人口贩卖案件。
This particular recording at the Lazy Daisy Cafe came about because one of the deputies, Deputy William Courson, asked Agent Marx out.
这段在 Lazy Daisy 咖啡馆的特别录音之所以出现，是因为其中一位代表，副警长威廉·库尔森 (William Courson) 邀请马克思探员出去。
He had a crush on her She turned him down.
他暗恋她，她却拒绝了他。
But later she talked with her supervisor, and they decided that Deputy Courson could be a good source of intel.
但后来她与主管交谈，他们认为副库森可能是一个很好的情报来源。
Marx told Courson she would go out with him, but just as friends.
马克思告诉库森，她会和他一起出去，但只是作为朋友。
No dating.
没有约会。
She wasn't interested.
她不感兴趣。
So they go out to breakfast.
于是他们出去吃早餐。
She has French toast.
她有法式吐司。
He has eggs.
他有鸡蛋。
And she's asking him about his job.
她正在询问他的工作情况。
And he's telling her about violence in the jail, inmates beating up other inmates.
他告诉她监狱里的暴力事件，囚犯殴打其他囚犯。
Courson says in some cases, "They're going to get beat down by their own people, more than likely worse than what we would normally do to them.
库尔森说，在某些情况下，“他们会被自己的人打败，很可能比我们通常对他们做的更糟糕。
Which is bad, because we send them to the hospital."
这很糟糕，因为我们把他们送到医院。”
They're going to get beat down by their own people, more than likely worse than what we would normally do to them.
他们会被自己的人打败，很可能比我们通常对他们做的更糟糕。
Which is bad, because we send them to the hospital.
这很糟糕，因为我们把他们送到医院。
Like, why though?
比如，为什么呢？
William Courson Why what?
威廉·库尔森 为什么什么？
Why would you guys send them to the hospital?
为什么要送他们去医院？
Because every time they fight with us, it's like an unwritten rule.
因为他们每次和我们打架，就像是一条不成文的规定。
They go to the hospital.
他们去医院。
He's saying, "Every time they fight with us, it's like an unwritten rule.
他说：“每次他们和我们打架，这就像一条不成文的规则。
They go to the hospital." He says, "Sometimes, they don't even have to make the first move.
他们去医院。”他说：“有时，他们甚至不必迈出第一步。
If we just perceive that they want to fight, we don't have to wait for them to hit us."
如果我们只是察觉到他们想要战斗，我们就不必等待他们来攻击我们。”
Marx keeps asking, but is this how you're trained officially by the Sheriff's Department, that you're legally allowed to beat someone to the point that they go to the hospital if you even think they might do something?
马克思一直在问，但这就是警长部门对你的正式训练吗？法律允许你殴打某人，甚至如果你认为他们可能会做某事，他们就要去医院吗？
Courson says that it all depends on how the deputies write up the incident in their report.
库尔森说，这完全取决于代表们如何在报告中记录这一事件。
As long as they don't quit fighting, that's the way you write it.
只要他们不停止战斗，那就是你写的方式。
[LAUGHS] Got it.
[笑]明白了。
Nancy Updike They go back and forth like this, law enforcement officer to law enforcement officer talking shop.
南希·厄普代克 他们就这样来回走动，执法人员对执法人员谈论工作。
Courson says they've got new rules for how long to taser someone.
库尔森说，他们对电击某人的时间有新的规定。
"What they want you to do now is hold the taser, hold the trigger, until you actually get them handcuffed."
“他们现在要你做的就是握住泰瑟枪，扣动扳机，直到你真正给他们戴上手铐。”
So what they want you to do now is hold the taser, hold the trigger, until you actually get them handcuffed.
所以他们现在要你做的就是握住泰瑟枪，扣动扳机，直到你真正给他们戴上手铐。
That can be a long time.
那可能会很长一段时间。
Nancy Updike "That can be a long time," says Marx.
南希·厄普代克“这可能会很长一段时间，”马克思说。
Courson says, "Oh yeah.
库森说：“哦，是的。
Depends on how clumsy we are."
取决于我们有多笨拙。”
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Depends on how clumsy we are.
取决于我们有多笨拙。
[LAUGHS] Ah, I didn't even think about it before I saw them.
[笑]啊，在我看到他们之前我什至没有想到这一点。
But tomato?
但是番茄呢？
Would you like a tomato?
你想要一个西红柿吗？
No. No, thanks.
不，不，谢谢。
Tomatoes and French toast, not exactly a--
西红柿和法式吐司，不完全是——
Interesting.
有趣。
So, like, how do you guys get to the point, where, like you learn all the unwritten rules?
那么，你们是如何做到这一点的，就像你们学习所有不成文的规则一样？
She says, "So how do you guys get to the point where you learn all the unwritten rules?" "About sending them to the hospital?" Courson says.
她说：“那么你们如何才能学会所有不成文的规则呢？” “送他们去医院？”库森说。
"I think think just like in general," Marx says.
“我认为就像一般情况一样思考，”马克思说。
Like for us-- William Courson About sending them to the hospital?
就像我们一样——William Courson 关于送他们去医院？
They tell us.
他们告诉我们。
Nancy Updike "They tell us," he says.
南希·厄普代克“他们告诉我们，”他说。
He explains that he learned the unwritten rules while he was still at the Academy, just after graduating, during a training called jail ops-- jail operations.
他解释说，他在学院毕业时就在一次名为“监狱行动”的培训中学到了不成文的规则。
He says "After we graduate, you go through I think it's a week or two-week course of jail ops.
他说：“我们毕业后，你会经历为期一周或两周的监狱行动课程。
During that time, that's when they tell you it's an unwritten rule that any inmate that fights with deputies goes to the hospital."
在那段时间里，他们会告诉你，任何与警员打架的囚犯都要去医院，这是一条不成文的规定。”
During that time, that's when they tell you it's an unwritten rule that any inmate that fights with deputies goes to the hospital.
在那段时间里，他们会告诉你这是一条不成文的规定，任何与警员打架的囚犯都要去医院。
Got it.
知道了。
Even if it's not necessary, you do it.
即使没有必要，你也会这么做。
You just teach them a lesson, or what?
你只是给他们一个教训，还是什么？
Pretty much.
差不多了。
Nancy Updike Marx says, "Got it.
南希·厄普代克·马克思说：“明白了。
Even if it's not necessary, you do it.
即使没有必要，你也会这么做。
You just teach them a lesson.
你只是给他们一个教训。
Courson says, "Pretty much." Courson said later that he doesn't like some of what he sees going on at the jail.
库森说：“差不多了。”库尔森后来说，他不喜欢监狱里发生的一些事情。
He says about the inmates, "Some of them I like.
他谈到囚犯时说：“其中一些我喜欢。
From what I know of them, they're decent people.
据我对他们的了解，他们都是正派的人。
But kind of like what we said before, the only thing that's separating me and them is one mistake."
但就像我们之前说过的那样，唯一将我和他们分开的就是一个错误。”
Robert, the LA Times guy who reported on the Christmas party fight, eventually heard about the FBI's investigation into the jails-- not from the FBI, but as a series of rumors going around.
报道圣诞晚会斗殴事件的《洛杉矶时报》记者罗伯特最终听说了联邦调查局对监狱的调查——不是从联邦调查局那里得知的，而是通过一系列流传的谣言得知的。
We started to hear that the FBI had smuggled a cell phone to an inmate who was secretly acting as an informant.
我们开始听说联邦调查局向一名秘密充当线人的囚犯走私了一部手机。
This was the informant working with FBI agent Leah Marx, telling her about abuse in the jail.
这是与联邦调查局探员利亚·马克思合作的线人，向她讲述监狱中的虐待事件。
The phone was so that the informant could try and take pictures or video to back up inmates' stories about brutality and corruption by some of the deputies.
通过电话，线人可以尝试拍摄照片或视频来支持囚犯关于一些代表的残暴和腐败的故事。
But there was a problem with this plan, which is cell phones are illegal in jail.
但这个计划有一个问题，那就是手机在监狱里是非法的。
And pretty quickly, deputies found the informant's cellphone during a routine search.
很快，警员们在例行搜查中发现了线人的手机。
LA Times headline, "FBI Paid Deputy to Smuggle Cell Phone in Jail Sting." Deputies found the phone wrapped in a glove and hidden inside a potato chip bag.
《洛杉矶时报》的标题是“联邦调查局支付代理人在监狱里走私手机”。警员发现手机包裹着手套，藏在薯片袋里。
And wow, was the Sheriff's Department mad that the FBI had done this.
哇，联邦调查局这么做了，治安部门生气了吗？
The sheriffs and the FBI were used to being more or less on the same side.
治安官和联邦调查局已经习惯了或多或少站在同一边。
Here's Robert.
这是罗伯特.
They work with each other on a ton of task forces.
他们在大量的工作组中相互合作。
Right.
对。
Robert Faturechi They have a close relationship.
罗伯特·法图奇 他们关系密切。
And this is the kind of thing that would be seen as a huge betrayal.
这是一种会被视为巨大背叛的事情。
All right.
好吧。
Here comes the Sheriff.
警长来了。
He's right here.
他就在这里。
Sheriff Lee Baca is with us.
李·巴卡警长和我们在一起。
You're here to talk about something near-and-dear that you're involved in.
你来这里是为了谈论一些你所参与的亲密的事情。
This is the morning show on the local Fox TV affiliate in LA.
这是洛杉矶当地福克斯电视台附属机构的早间节目。
Sheriff Lee Baca, who is in charge of the entire LA County Sheriff's Department, is sitting there with the hosts.
负责整个洛杉矶县治安部门的警长李·巴卡 (Lee Baca) 与主持人坐在一起。
This is right after Robert's first story in the LA Times about the smuggled cellphone.
这是罗伯特在《洛杉矶时报》上发表的第一篇关于走私手机的报道。
Baca's tone is measured as he answers the interviewer's questions, but it's clear he's really angry.
巴卡在回答采访者的问题时语气很谨慎，但很明显他真的很生气。
And I think it's a-- Male Host Do you resent the FBI's intrusion?
我认为这是一个—— 男主持人，你对FBI的入侵感到不满吗？
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Male Host And specifically, this issue about a cell phone.
男主持人 具体来说，这个问题是关于手机的。
Right.
对。
Male Host What can you tell us about that?
男主持人对此有何评论？
Well, it's illegal.
嗯，这是非法的。
It's a misdemeanor.
这是一种轻罪。
And then there's a conspiracy law that goes along with it.
还有与之相伴的阴谋法。
The truth is, the sheriff runs the jail.
事实上，监狱是治安官管理的。
And the sheriff's responsibilities have to be respected.
治安官的职责必须得到尊重。
The sheriff was publicly saying, you know, the Feds have committed a crime.
治安官公开表示，你知道，联邦调查局犯了罪。
We police ourselves.
我们自己监管自己。
Mind your own business.
管好自己的事吧。
We've got this.
我们有这个。
And the Feds, they were absolutely infuriated that the Sheriff of LA County was publicly accusing them of a crime.
而联邦调查局，他们对洛杉矶县治安官公开指控他们犯罪感到非常愤怒。
Of course, the FBI did do something illegal.
当然，FBI确实做了一些违法的事情。
Not only did they give their informant a cell phone in jail, but they also bribed a corrupt deputy with $1,500 to smuggle in that phone.
他们不仅在监狱里给了线人一部手机，还贿赂了一名腐败官员 1,500 美元，让其走私手机。
But the FBI is not regular people.
但FBI可不是普通人。
Different rules apply to them.
他们适用不同的规则。
The smuggled phone, although illegal, was part of an authorized FBI investigation into other illegal activity-- abuse by deputies.
走私的手机虽然非法，但却是联邦调查局授权调查其他非法活动（警员滥用职权）的一部分。
And that's exactly the kind of trade off that the FBI is allowed to make in some situations.
这正是联邦调查局在某些情况下可以做出的权衡。
They're legally permitted to let their informants commit certain crimes, though never a violent crime.
法律允许他们让线人实施某些犯罪，但绝不是暴力犯罪。
But the Sheriff's Department was not backing down.
但治安部门并没有退缩。
On the contrary, they counter-punched, saying to the FBI essentially, you're coming after us?
相反，他们进行了反击，实质上是对联邦调查局说，你们是来追我们的？
We're coming after you.
我们正在追赶你。
On the same day that Sheriff Lee Baca went on TV, the Sheriff's Department sent two of its sergeants to FBI agent Leah Marx's home.
就在警长李·巴卡 (Lee Baca) 上电视的同一天，治安部门派了两名警官前往联邦调查局 (FBI) 探员莉亚·马克思 (Leah Marx) 的家中。
They recorded the whole encounter.
他们记录了整个遭遇。
They waited outside her apartment.
他们在她的公寓外等候。
And one of the Sheriff's officials, Sergeant Scott Craig, spots FBI agent Leah Marx and calls out to her.
警长之一的斯科特·克雷格中士发现了联邦调查局特工利亚·马克思，并向她喊话。
Hi, I'm Sergeant Craig from the Sheriff's Department.
大家好，我是治安部门的克雷格中士。
I left you a message a couple weeks ago.
几周前我给你留言了。
We're here to talk to you--
我们来这里是想和你谈谈——
I don't have anything to say.
我没什么可说的。
Scott Craig OK, so you don't wan to talk to us?
斯科特·克雷格：好的，所以你不想和我们说话吗？
No, thanks.
不，谢谢。
Scott Craig Do you want my card or anything?
斯科特·克雷格 你想要我的卡还是什么东西？
You know that you're a named suspect in a felony complaint?
您知道您是重罪投诉中的指定嫌疑人吗？
It's hard to hear this part, but Sergeant Craig is saying, "Do you know that you're a named suspect in a felony complaint?" In other words, they showed up at her home not to say, "We're arresting you," but to say, "We might be about to arrest you." No matter what FBI Agent Marx says, Sergeant Craig keeps telling her, "We might be about to arrest you."
这部分听起来很难，但克雷格警官在说：“你知道你是重罪投诉中的指定嫌疑人吗？”换句话说，他们出现在她家不是说“我们要逮捕你”，而是说“我们可能要逮捕你”。无论联邦调查局探员马克思说什么，克雷格中士都不断告诉她，“我们可能会逮捕你。”
OK.
好的。
What I'm going to do, so you know, is I'm in the process of swearing out a declaration for an arrest warrant for you.
你知道，我要做的就是宣誓对你发出逮捕令。
Would you like us to go through who?
你想让我们通过谁？
I would prefer that you would actually contact the officials who are in charge of the FBI.
我希望你能真正联系负责联邦调查局的官员。
OK.
好的。
Well, what we're going to do to arrange for your arrest when we're ready to do that is we can either do this--
好吧，当我们准备好逮捕你时，我们可以这样做——
No, I would-- you need to contact the FBI office.
不，我想——你需要联系联邦调查局办公室。
They basically say that they're going to issue a warrant for her arrest, and that they're investigating her for the crime of smuggling a cell phone into the jail.
他们基本上是说，他们将签发逮捕令，并正在调查她是否犯有将手机走私进监狱的罪名。
And she basically says, talk to my boss.
她基本上是说，跟我的老板谈谈。
And then we have a recording of this.
然后我们有一个录音。
Her boss calls these sheriff's investigators.
她的老板给这些治安官的调查员打电话。
OK, go ahead.
好的，继续吧。
Nancy Updike This is Sergeant Maricela Long from the Sheriff's Department.
南希·厄普代克 我是治安部门的马里塞拉·朗中士。
She had been with Sergeant Craig outside FBI Agent Leah Marx's house.
她当时和克雷格中士一起在联邦调查局探员利亚·马克思的家外。
Sergeant Long recorded this call with the FBI.
朗中士向联邦调查局记录了这次通话。
So you're with who, sir?
那么您和谁在一起呢，先生？
Man She indicated to me that you guys indicated to there being a warrant for her arrest?
伙计，她向我表示你们表示对她有逮捕令？
There's going to be.
会有的。
Man Does the sheriff know this?
伙计，警长知道吗？
The sheriff knows this, sir.
警长知道这一点，先生。
Man OK.
伙计，好吧。
Can I ask what the charges are going to be?
可以请问一下收费是多少吗？
OK.
好的。
You're going to have to speak to the undersheriff.
你得和副警长谈谈。
Sergeant Long gives the phone number for the undersheriff.
朗中士给出了副警长的电话号码。
And then they wrap up the call.
然后他们结束了通话。
You don't have any idea when the warrant's going to come out, do you?
你不知道逮捕令什么时候发出，是吗？
It could be tomorrow, sir.
可能是明天，先生。
You're going to have to talk to the undersheriff.
你得和副警长谈谈。
And at the end of the recording, you know, after they say goodbye to each other, they forget to stop recording, the sheriff's investigators do.
在录音结束时，你知道，在他们互相告别后，他们忘记停止录音，治安官的调查员就是这么做的。
Oh, no. Robert Faturechi And one of the investigators basically kind of jubilantly goes, "They're scared!"
哦，不。罗伯特·法图奇（Robert Faturechi） 其中一名调查员基本上是兴高采烈地说：“他们很害怕！”
They're scared!
他们害怕了！
They're like, do you know when-- is the warrant--
他们就像，你知道什么时候——是逮捕令——
You're still rolling.
你还在滚动。
Robert Faturechi And her colleague says, you're still rolling!
Robert Faturechi 她的同事说，你还在滚动！
And the tape ends.
磁带结束了。
But it spoke to their frame of mind.
但这说出了他们的心态。
They're scared, meaning we scared the FBI.
他们很害怕，这意味着我们害怕联邦调查局。
Like, yay.
就像，耶。
Yeah.
是的。
She sounded really pleased that the FBI had been spooked by them showing up at this agent's door.
她听起来真的很高兴联邦调查局被他们出现在这位特工门口吓到了。
So what started as an investigation into serious inmate abuse was now being overshadowed by an institutional-sized shoving match between the Feds and the LA Sheriff's Department.
因此，一开始对严重虐待囚犯的调查现在被联邦调查局和洛杉矶治安部门之间机构规模的推搡比赛所掩盖。
And the next big shove in that match was a pretty dramatic one-- the Feds accusing sheriff's officials of obstruction of justice, intentionally thwarting a federal investigation.
那场比赛中的下一个重大推动是相当戏剧化的——联邦调查局指责治安官官员妨碍司法公正，故意阻挠联邦调查。
And you could argue that the Feds had the beginnings of a case.
你可以说美联储已经开始着手调查案件了。
The sheriff's agents who went to see Marx-- the Feds could paint that as intimidation.
去见马克思的警长特工——联邦调查局可以将其描述为恐吓。
The Sheriff's Department gloating at the end of the phone call with the FBI-- Feds could argue it showed intent.
治安部门在与联邦调查局的电话结束时幸灾乐祸——联邦调查局可能会辩称这表明了意图。
And then there was this-- remember the informant, the guy the FBI had smuggled the cellphone to?
然后还有这个——还记得联邦调查局偷运手机给的线人吗？
Almost as soon as his cover was blown, the Feds couldn't find him.
几乎就在他的身份被揭穿后，联邦调查局就找不到他了。
They demanded that the Sheriff's Department let them meet with their informant.
他们要求治安部门允许他们会见线人。
And the Sheriff's Department-- I'll let Robert, the LA Times reporter tell it.
至于治安部门——我会让《洛杉矶时报》记者罗伯特来讲述。
I mean, I started to get calls from sources.
我的意思是，我开始接到消息来源的电话。
And they were telling me various versions of this tale, that the inmate who'd been secretly working as an informant for the FBI was being moved around the jails.
他们告诉我这个故事的各种版本，那个一直秘密为联邦调查局提供线人的囚犯正在监狱里被转移。
And all of this was done in an effort to hide him from the FBI.
而这一切都是为了让他不被联邦调查局发现。
Moved around.
四处走动。
You mean you mean physically moved?
你的意思是你的意思是身体移动？
Sure.
当然。
Yeah, so what you've got to understand is that LA County and the LA County jail system is so massive.
是的，所以你必须了解洛杉矶县和洛杉矶县监狱系统是如此庞大。
It's not just one jail downtown or two jails.
这不仅仅是市中心的一所监狱或两所监狱。
There are jails downtown.
市中心有监狱。
Then there are jails spread across the county, you know, holding cells inside of stations.
然后，全县各地都有监狱，你知道，车站内有牢房。
And so they were moving him from one floor to another, from one facility to another.
因此他们把他从一层搬到另一层，从一个设施搬到另一个设施。
And this is the largest jail system in the country.
这是该国最大的监狱系统。
So there are dozens of places you could put an inmate if you don't want him to be found.
因此，如果您不想让囚犯被发现，您可以将其安置在数十个地方。
And my initial response to hearing such wild stories is skepticism.
听到这些疯狂的故事，我的第一反应是持怀疑态度。
I mean, I just couldn't believe that you would literally hide a human being and ignore requests from the FBI.
我的意思是，我简直不敢相信你真的会隐藏一个人并无视联邦调查局的请求。
It seemed too unbelievable to me.
这对我来说太难以置信了。
So Robert started asking around, trying to find this mystery informant.
于是罗伯特开始四处打听，试图找到这位神秘线人。
But it seemed like a lost cause.
但这似乎是一个失败的事业。
He didn't even know the guy's name.
他甚至不知道那人的名字。
So one Friday evening, I was leaving.
所以一个星期五晚上，我要离开。
And I'm on my way out, I checked my mail.
我正要出去，我检查了我的邮件。
I went to my mailbox, and I grabbed the letters that had come in.
我走到邮箱前，抓起收到的信件。
And at this point, we'd been writing about inmate abuse for a while.
此时，我们已经撰写有关虐待囚犯的文章有一段时间了。
And I didn't know it before, but what happens when you write about inmate abuse and when you write about jails is you start getting letters from prisoners everywhere-- not just in LA County, across the state.
我以前并不知道，但是当你写关于虐待囚犯和监狱的文章时，你会开始收到来自各地囚犯的来信——不仅仅是洛杉矶县，还有全州。
And they're all trying to tell you about their own experience, their own experience being abused, their own experience being wrongly convicted.
他们都在试图告诉你他们自己的经历，他们自己被虐待的经历，他们自己被错误定罪的经历。
And some of them are probably true.
其中一些可能是真的。
But again, what happens in jails is really hard to prove.
但同样，监狱里发生的事情确实很难证明。
And we are so busy that-- I'm not proud of this-- but I wouldn't always read these letters closely.
我们太忙了——我并不为此感到自豪——但我不会总是仔细阅读这些信。
And so one of these letters had come in.
于是其中一封信就进来了。
And I was sort of just reading it while walking out.
我只是一边走一边读它。
And the guy was saying, I'm the FBI's informant.
那个人说，我是联邦调查局的线人。
Oh, my god.
我的天啊。
Robert Faturechi I'm the guy who was at the center of all this.
Robert Faturechi 我是这一切的中心人物。
So wait.
所以等等。
You were looking for him, and as you were looking for him, you got a letter from him?
你在找他，在你找他的同时，你收到了他的信？
Yeah.
是的。
Well, honestly, at that point, I thought the chances of me finding him, I didn't think it would be possible.
好吧，老实说，当时我以为我找到他的机会很大，我不认为这是可能的。
And then comes this letter.
然后是这封信。
And he's describing exactly the rumor that I'd been hearing, that he had been moved around, that they had changed his name.
他准确地描述了我听到的谣言，即他已被调动，他们已更改了他的名字。
The guy's name was Anthony Brown.
这个人的名字叫安东尼·布朗。
And he had been transferred to prison by this point, so he was out of the jail system.
而此时他已经被转入监狱，所以他已经脱离了监狱系统。
And Robert and his reporting partner Jack Leonard went down to see him.
罗伯特和他的报道伙伴杰克伦纳德去看他。
All I knew about him at that point was that he was this convicted bank robber facing-- I forget what his sentence was-- like 323 years in prison or something.
那时我对他的了解就是，他是一个被定罪的银行抢劫犯，面临着——我忘了他的刑罚是什么——比如 323 年监禁之类的。
And I was expecting this big, tough, scary-looking guy.
我期待着这个高大、坚韧、长相可怕的家伙。
And in walks Anthony Brown.
安东尼·布朗走了进来。
And he's this, like, pudgy, sweet guy who's got, like, these glasses and this, like, really charming New York accent.
他是个矮胖的、可爱的小伙子，戴着一副眼镜，还有一口非常迷人的纽约口音。
When you're just thinking about what a bank robber looks like, you're not imagining Anthony Brown,
当你只是想到银行劫匪的样子时，你想象不到安东尼·布朗，
Anthony Brown told him a lot.
安东尼·布朗告诉了他很多。
He confirmed that yes, the cell phone had been smuggled in by a deputy who was bribed with $1,500.
他证实，是的，手机是一名警官走私进来的，他被贿赂了 1,500 美元。
Yes, Anthony Brown was moved around the jails.
是的，安东尼·布朗被转移到监狱周围。
He was hidden inside the jail system by deputies who guarded him 24 hours a day and rebooked him under aliases that would change every 48 hours.
他被狱警隐藏在监狱系统内，他们每天 24 小时看守他，并为他重新登记化名，每 48 小时更换一次。
Brown also told Robert and Jack that he had seen a lot of abuse of inmates by deputies.
布朗还告诉罗伯特和杰克，他见过很多警员虐待囚犯的行为。
He said he'd kept notes.
他说他做了笔记。
His description of daily life in the jail was in line with what Robert and Jack had already reported out through documents and sources.
他对监狱日常生活的描述与罗伯特和杰克通过文件和消息来源报道的一致。
But Brown said a lot of other stuff that just did not seem to be true.
但布朗说了很多其他似乎不真实的话。
He told Robert and Jack that he'd been a high-level executive at Def Jam Recordings.
他告诉罗伯特和杰克，他曾是 Def Jam Recordings 的高级管理人员。
Def Jam said they'd never heard of him.
Def Jam 说他们从未听说过他。
He told Robert and Jack that he'd made a ton of money being on tour with Beyonce.
他告诉罗伯特和杰克，他和碧昂丝一起巡演赚了很多钱。
Couldn't nail that down.
无法确定这一点。
And there were other things.
还有其他的事情。
So as a witness in a case about inmate abuse, if it was just Brown testifying about what he'd seen, no evidence to back up his claims, that would be a hard sell.
因此，作为虐待囚犯案件的证人，如果只是布朗就他所看到的情况作证，没有证据支持他的说法，那就很难说服了。
But for an obstruction case, Brown told Robert and Jack one story that ended up being very important and that other people could corroborate.
但对于一起妨碍司法公正的案件，布朗向罗伯特和杰克讲述了一个非常重要且其他人可以证实的故事。
Immediately after his cover was blown, before they were able to really get the operation to move him and change his name, his FBI handler had gotten into the jail to interview him, because they had gotten word that this cover was blown.
在他的身份被揭穿之后，在他们能够真正采取行动转移他并改变他的名字之前，他的联邦调查局官员已经进入监狱采访他，因为他们得到消息说他的身份被揭穿了。
And they're in this room, and they're meeting and they're talking.
他们就在这个房间里，正在开会、正在交谈。
And a couple sheriff's officials barge in and declare, this meeting is over.
几个警长的官员闯入并宣布，这次会议结束了。
They kick him out.
他们把他赶了出去。
They kick the agent out.
他们把特工赶了出去。
And that was really interesting.
这真的很有趣。
It showed an explicit effort to get in the way of a conversation between an FBI agent and an informant.
它显示出明显的意图妨碍联邦调查局特工和线人之间的对话。
And that was one of the main arguments, that the Sheriff's Department tried to obstruct a federal investigation, which is a crime.
这是主要论点之一，即治安部门试图阻碍联邦调查，这是犯罪行为。
That incident?
那次事件？
That incident was cited as a main piece of evidence.
该事件被列为主要证据。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, that incident was cited.
是的，那次事件被引用了。
That was a federal interview, and they came in and they basically shut it down.
那是一次联邦采访，他们进来后基本上就关闭了。
And they kicked the agent out.
他们把特工赶了出去。
The Sheriff's Department said yes, they had interrupted the FBI's meeting with Brown, but to protect him according to a newly heightened security protocol.
治安部门表示，是的，他们中断了联邦调查局与布朗的会面，但为了根据新加强的安全协议保护他。
In fact, they said none of what had happened was intentional obstruction of justice.
事实上，他们表示所发生的一切都不是故意妨碍司法公正。
They said they'd moved Anthony Brown around the jails and hidden him not to keep him away from the Feds, but to keep him safe from possible retribution by the deputies he was informing on.
他们说，他们将安东尼·布朗转移到监狱周围并将他隐藏起来，不是为了让他远离联邦调查局，而是为了让他免受他所举报的代表可能的报复。
So far, jurors have not bought these arguments.
到目前为止，陪审员们还没有接受这些论点。
Toward the end of 2013, the Feds brought obstruction of justice cases against seven people in the LA County Sheriff's Department.
2013 年底，联邦调查局对洛杉矶县治安部门的 7 名人员提起了妨碍司法公正的诉讼。
Six have been convicted, including the two sergeants who went to FBI Agent Leah Marx's home.
六人已被定罪，其中包括两名前往联邦调查局探员莉亚·马克思家中的警官。
One more case ended with a hung jury.
又一案件以陪审团悬而未决而告终。
It's going to be retried.
将会重试。
But Robert, the LA Times reporter, said even before these convictions, even before anyone was charged in these obstruction cases, the Sheriff's Department was coming under more pressure than it ever had to deal with brutality against inmates by deputies.
但《洛杉矶时报》记者罗伯特表示，即使在这些定罪之前，甚至在有人因这些妨碍司法公正的案件受到指控之前，治安部门就面临着比以往任何时候都更大的压力，因为他们必须处理警员对囚犯的残暴行为。
The FBI investigation came on top of a whole pile of complaints and evidence that had been building up for years, from civilian monitors of the police, from the ACLU, from media reports.
联邦调查局的调查是在多年来积累的一大堆投诉和证据的基础上展开的，这些投诉和证据来自警察的民事监察员、美国公民自由联盟和媒体报道。
Facing all that, the sheriff implemented reforms.
面对这一切，治安官实施了改革。
And now, Robert says from everything he hears from people on the inside, though there's still problems in the jails, the inmates are treated differently.
现在，罗伯特从内部人士那里听到的一切说，尽管监狱里仍然存在问题，但囚犯受到了不同的待遇。
A few months ago, Sheriff Lee Baca, who had headed the department for 15 years, resigned.
几个月前，担任该部门领导 15 年的警长李·巴卡 (Lee Baca) 辞职。
One last fact to chew on-- the Sheriff's Department plan to hide Anthony Brown in the jail system was called Operation Pandora's Box.
最后一个值得深思的事实是，治安部门将安东尼·布朗隐藏在监狱系统中的计划被称为“潘多拉魔盒行动”。
I didn't quite do a double take when I read that, but I did think it wasn't the best myth to choose.
当我读到这篇文章时，我并没有再三考虑，但我确实认为这不是最好的选择。
The story doesn't end well for anyone who's hoping to contain something or keep it hidden.
对于那些希望包含或隐藏某些东西的人来说，这个故事的结局并不好。
Pandora opens the box, and the contents fly out for the whole world to see.
潘多拉打开了盒子，里面的东西飞出来让全世界都看到。
Nancy Updike is one of the producers of our program.
南希·厄普代克是我们节目的制作人之一。
Robert Faturechi is a reporter at the Los Angeles Times who's covered law enforcement since 2010.
罗伯特·法图奇 (Robert Faturechi) 是《洛杉矶时报》的记者，自 2010 年以来一直报道执法情况。
We contacted the LA County Sheriff's Department about the recent history of violence against inmates in the jails.
我们联系了洛杉矶县治安部门，了解监狱中最近发生的针对囚犯的暴力事件。
And they sent this statement.
他们发送了这份声明。
Quote, "Over the past few years, the department has made a multitude of changes which have transformed the custody environment.
引用：“在过去的几年里，该部门做出了许多改变，改变了监管环境。
Some of these changes include innovative ideas which have not previously been implemented in large jail systems.
其中一些变化包括以前未在大型监狱系统中实施的创新想法。
Use of force incidents have dropped significantly in comparison to 2011 and earlier."
与 2011 年及之前相比，使用武力事件大幅减少。”
Well, our program was produced today by Miki Meek with Alex Blumberg, Ben Calhoun, Sean Cole, Stephanie Foo, Chana Joffe-Walt, Sarah Koenig, Jonathan Menjivar, Brian Reed, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
今天我们的节目由 Miki Meek 与 Alex Blumberg、Ben Calhoun、Sean Cole、Stephanie Foo、Chana Joffe-Walt、Sarah Koenig、Jonathan Menjivar、Brian Reed、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 共同制作。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Production help from Alison Davis and JP Dukes.
艾莉森·戴维斯 (Alison Davis) 和 JP 杜克斯 (JP Dukes) 为制作提供帮助。
It is Alison's last program with us here as our visiting fellow, and we all wish her the best.
这是艾莉森作为客座研究员与我们一起参加的最后一个项目，我们都祝她一切顺利。
Seth Lind is our operations director.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的运营总监。
Emily Condon is our production manager.
艾米丽·康登 (Emily Condon) 是我们的生产经理。
Elise Begerson's our administrative assistant.
埃莉斯·贝格森是我们的行政助理。
Adrianne Mathiowetz runs our website.
阿德琳娜·马修韦茨 (Adrianne Mathiowetz) 负责运营我们的网站。
Research help from Michelle Harris and Julie Beer.
米歇尔·哈里斯和朱莉·比尔的研究帮助。
Music help from Damien Graef and Rob Geddis.
Damien Graef 和 Rob Geddis 提供音乐帮助。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks as always to our program's cofounder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, I got a frantic call from him today.
你知道吗，我今天接到了他打来的急切电话。
He had a big decision he needed help with.
他有一个重大决定需要帮助。
Do I or don't I want to put on stilettos and a bikini and be in that music video?
我是否想穿上高跟鞋和比基尼出现在音乐录影带中？
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。