529: Human Spectacle - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #529 | June 27, 2014 529: Human Spectacle Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 529 集 | 2014 年 6 月 27 日 529：人类奇观 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass In October, 2003, a guy was brought into the psychiatric emergency room at Bellevue Hospital in New York City.
序言 Ira Glass 2003 年 10 月，一名男子被送进纽约市贝尔维尤医院的精神科急诊室。
Dr. Joel Gold was the chief attending psychiatrist that day and saw him.
乔尔·戈尔德医生是那天的主治精神科医生，也见了他。
He felt that his life was essentially a reality show, that he's been recorded for years, that everyone in his life was an actor reading from a script.
他觉得他的生活本质上就是一场真人秀，他已经被录制了很多年，他生活中的每个人都是一个念剧本的演员。
And he came to New York essentially to test this hypothesis.
他来到纽约主要是为了检验这个假设。
He thought that maybe 9/11 was faked just to get a reaction out of him on reality TV.
他认为 9/11 事件可能是为了让他在真人秀节目中做出反应而伪造的。
And if he came to New York and if the World Trade Centers were still standing, he would know that that was in fact the case.
如果他来到纽约，如果世贸中心仍然矗立，他就会知道事实确实如此。
If in fact they had been destroyed, then he would admit that perhaps he was delusional.
如果它们确实被摧毁了，那么他就会承认自己可能是产生了妄想。
But once he got to New York, instead of visiting the Twin Towers, he walked into the United Nations and asked for asylum-- asylum from a TV show that was filming him without his consent 24 hours a day, which, you know, is how he ended up in Bellevue.
但一到纽约，他没有去参观双子塔，而是走进联合国，请求庇护——一个未经他同意就每天24小时拍摄他的电视节目的庇护，你知道，这就是他最终来到贝尔维尤的原因。
Dr. Gold didn't think much of this.
戈尔德博士对此并没有多想。
People show up at Bellevue with lots of weird delusions all the time.
人们总是带着许多奇怪的错觉出现在贝尔维尤。
And then a few months later, another guy walks in with the same idea-- that he was being filmed 24/7 and broadcast around the world.
几个月后，另一个人带着同样的想法走进来——他正在被 24/7 拍摄并在世界各地播出。
And the second guy, like the first one, mentioned a film-- the 1998 movie, The Truman Show .
第二个人和第一个人一样，提到了一部电影——1998 年的电影《杜鲁门的世界》。
Both of them named The Truman Show by name.
他们俩都以《杜鲁门的世界》的名字命名。
They said my life is like The Truman Show .
他们说我的生活就像《杜鲁门的世界》。
Truman is played by Jim Carrey.
杜鲁门由金·凯瑞饰演。
He's filmed all day every day on a program that is broadcast to billions of people around the globe.
他每天都在向全球数十亿人播放的节目中进行拍摄。
His wife, his best friend-- everybody around him is an actor.
他的妻子，他最好的朋友——他周围的每个人都是演员。
Everybody knows this is a TV show but him, until one day he starts to seek clues that make him suspicious.
每个人都知道这是一部电视节目，但他除外，直到有一天他开始寻找令他怀疑的线索。
And just to be clear, you're not saying that The Truman Show necessarily triggered this.
需要澄清的是，您并不是说《杜鲁门的世界》必然引发了这一点。
Like, people watch The Truman Show , and suddenly something in their brain snaps.
就像人们在观看《杜鲁门的世界》时，突然大脑中的某些东西崩溃了。
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
On the contrary, I think it's just-- when people are becoming psychotic, things feel a little bit unusual, a bit odd.
相反，我认为这只是——当人们变得精神病时，事情感觉有点不寻常，有点奇怪。
But what would explain all of this weirdness?
但如何解释所有这些奇怪的现象呢？
And perhaps if you've seen the movie and that's kicking around in your head, you might say, yes, this is it.
如果您看过这部电影并且脑海中浮现出这部电影，您可能会说，是的，就是这样。
This is what's happening to me.
这就是发生在我身上的事情。
If your psychosis includes both paranoia and a sense that you are very, very important-- what psychiatrists call grandiosity-- 30 years ago, you might think that the CIA or the KGB is watching you all the time.
如果你的精神病既包括偏执狂，又包括感觉自己非常非常重要——精神病学家称之为自大——30年前，你可能会认为中央情报局或克格勃一直在监视你。
These days you have another possible explanation-- reality TV.
如今，你有了另一种可能的解释——电视真人秀。
A few months later, a third patient showed up with the same delusion, and a few months after that a fourth.
几个月后，第三位患者也出现了同样的错觉，几个月后又出现了第四位患者。
Dr. Gold started calling it "The Truman Show Delusion." He's just written a book about it with his brother Ian called Suspicious Minds .
戈尔德博士开始称其为“杜鲁门秀错觉”。他刚刚和他的兄弟伊恩（Ian）写了一本关于这个问题的书，名为《可疑的思想》（Suspicious Minds）。
In one case in the book, a patient-- super-smart guy, an academic, very altruistic-- believed that he was part of an elaborate game show, and the world was watching him and betting on everything that he did.
在书中的一个案例中，一个病人——超级聪明的人，一个学者，非常无私——相信他是一个精心设计的游戏节目的一部分，全世界都在看着他，并为他所做的一切下注。
And this was a really fun thing that everyone would be doing online.
这是每个人都会在网上做的一件非常有趣的事情。
And the monies collected would go to charities all over the world.
收集到的善款将捐献给世界各地的慈善机构。
And then every single human being on Earth would be given some amount of money, and the world would be bettered for it.
然后地球上的每个人都会得到一定数量的钱，世界也会因此而变得更好。
One of the things that he included in his delusion, you write in your book, is that he has the thought that he actually was the mastermind who created this game show that he was on, and that he controlled it and he knew the rules when he had originally created the show.
你在书中写道，他在他的妄想中包含的一件事是，他认为他实际上是创建他所在的这个游戏节目的策划者，并且他控制了它并且他在最初创建该节目时知道规则。
But somehow he had forgotten that and all the rules-- which is so interesting, because of course it's true.
但不知何故，他忘记了这一点和所有规则——这很有趣，因为这当然是真的。
Like, he did invent the game show, and the only fact that he's missing is that it's not real.
就像，他确实发明了游戏节目，而他唯一错过的事实是它不是真实的。
It's all in his own head.
一切都在他自己的脑子里。
That's an interesting way of putting it.
这是一种有趣的表达方式。
It is kind of fantastical.
这有点奇幻。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Ira Glass But he can't grasp the whole reality--
艾拉·格拉斯但他无法掌握整个现实——
He does not remember-- like, at one point he suggests that he told his best friends, this is what I'm going to do.
他不记得了——就像，有一次他建议他告诉他最好的朋友，这就是我要做的事情。
You're going to run the show, but you will now hypnotize me, and I will forget what we're talking about now so we can do this really good deed for humanity.
你将主持大局，但你现在会催眠我，我会忘记我们现在正在谈论的内容，这样我们就可以为人类做这件真正的善事。
Some of these patients respond to treatment, some don't-- same as with other delusions and psychoses.
其中一些患者对治疗有反应，有些则没有——就像其他妄想症和精神病一样。
But Dr. Gold says that if they do come back to reality--
但戈尔德博士说，如果他们真的回到现实——
Some feel great relief if they've been persecuted.
有些人如果受到迫害就会感到极大的解脱。
It's quite embarrassing if you think about it.
想想就觉得很尴尬。
Every moment of your life-- I mean, when you're in the shower, literally everything is filmed.
你生命中的每一刻——我的意思是，当你洗澡的时候，几乎所有的事情都会被拍摄下来。
So they feel quite good about it.
所以他们对此感觉很好。
At the same time, there's a certain sadness that they're not particularly important.
同时，也有一种悲伤是它们并不是特别重要。
Do they miss being the most famous person in the world?
他们怀念成为世界上最著名的人的日子吗？
No question, there are some who feel that that's a huge loss.
毫无疑问，有些人认为这是一个巨大的损失。
At the same time, I think they return to the notion that they're mentally ill, which in and of itself is an unfortunate and sad thing.
与此同时，我认为他们又回到了自己患有精神疾病的观念，这本身就是一件不幸和悲伤的事情。
Psychosis aside, I think this illustrates so clearly, there's a downside and an upside to being onstage for the whole world to see, a human spectacle against your will.
撇开精神病不谈，我认为这清楚地说明了，在舞台上让全世界都看到一个违背你意愿的人类奇观，有一个缺点，也有一个优点。
And today on our program, we have people who became just that.
今天在我们的节目中，我们有这样的人。
They have an experience so few of us have that we all get to see from afar.
他们拥有我们很少有人拥有的经历，但我们都能从远处看到。
They are on display for everybody, and not because they chose it.
它们向所有人展示，而不是因为他们选择了它。
What that feels like, the positive parts and the negative side, and the real life reality of the whole thing-- from WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life , distributed by Public Radio International.
那感觉如何，积极的一面和消极的一面，以及整个事情的现实生活现实——来自 WBEZ 芝加哥，这是《美国生活》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, "I Am the Eggplant, Goo Goo Goo Joob ." In the TV genre that's devoted to pure human spectacle, reality TV, you know, people fight drunkenly in hot tubs, they eat live spiders for money.
第一幕，“我是茄子，咕咕咕乔布”。在致力于纯粹人类奇观的电视类型中，真人秀，你知道，人们在热水浴缸里醉酒打斗，他们为了钱而吃活蜘蛛。
But none of that can hold a candle to this show-- a show that aired in Japan all the way back in 1998.
但这些都无法与这部 1998 年在日本播出的节目相提并论。
It was called Susunu!
它叫Susunu！
Denpa Shonen.
电波少年.
And one of its segments in particular got the attention of one of our producers, Stephanie Foo.
它的其中一个部分特别引起了我们的制作人之一斯蒂芬妮·符（Stephanie Foo）的注意。
The segment is called "Sweepstakes Life." It starts the way a lot of these shows do-- with a bunch of people at an audition.
该部分称为“抽奖生活”。它的开始方式与许多此类节目的方式相同——一群人参加试镜。
One guy beats out everyone else.
一个人打败了其他人。
He's 22 years old, a comedian just starting out in his career.
他今年 22 岁，是一位刚刚开始职业生涯的喜剧演员。
His name is Nasubi.
他的名字叫那须比。
Nasubi!
纳须比！
Stephanie Foo Nasubi means eggplant in Japanese-- a nickname he got because he has a long face.
Stephanie Foo Nasubi 在日语中的意思是茄子，这是他因长脸而得的绰号。
The producers tell him they have a unique idea for a show, something they've never tried before.
制片人告诉他，他们对节目有一个独特的想法，这是他们以前从未尝试过的。
It may or may not air, but if it does, he'll be the star.
它可能会或可能不会播出，但如果播出，他将成为明星。
He'll be famous.
他会出名的。
[SPEAKING JAPANESE] Stephanie Foo The producers blindfold him, put him in a car, and take him to a small apartment.
[日语] Stephanie Foo 制片人蒙住他的眼睛，把他放进车里，然后带他到一间小公寓。
Then they tell him to take his clothes off.
然后他们叫他脱掉衣服。
[SPEAKING JAPANESE] Stephanie Foo That wipes the grin off his face.
[说日语] Stephanie Foo 这抹去了他脸上的笑容。
[SPEAKING JAPANESE] Translator It wasn't just my personal sort of shame or sort of issues about nudity, per se.
[说日语] 翻译这不仅仅是我个人的耻辱或有关裸体的问题本身。
My dad is a cop.
我爸爸是一名警察。
And when I first announced that for my career choice, it was going to be comedy, he was not thrilled.
当我第一次宣布我的职业选择将是喜剧时，他并不兴奋。
And we had to go through some things to get him around to the idea.
我们必须经历一些事情才能让他接受这个想法。
And he said, the one thing that I must never do in public is strip.
他说，我绝对不能在公共场合做的一件事就是脱衣。
Oh, no. Translator So there I was.
哦，不。译者所以我就在那里。
And then this guilt towards-- I was breaking the promise to my father as publicly as possible.
然后这种愧疚感——我尽可能公开地违背了对父亲的承诺。
But he strips.
但他脱光了。
He grabs a pillow, holds it over his groin, and looks around the room.
他抓起一个枕头，放在腹股沟上，环视房间。
There's no chair in the room, no bed-- just a coffee table and magazines, tons of magazines.
房间里没有椅子，没有床——只有一张咖啡桌和杂志，大量的杂志。
The producers tell him that from now on, if he wants food, clothes, he will have to win them by entering sweepstakes in those magazines.
制片人告诉他，从现在开始，如果他想要食物、衣服，他就必须通过参加那些杂志的抽奖活动来赢得它们。
They give him postcards to send in for prize drawings.
他们给了他明信片，让他寄去领取奖品。
He'll be freed from the apartment after he wins 1 million yen, or $10,000 worth of prizes.
当他赢得 100 万日元（即价值 10,000 美元）的奖金后，他将被释放出公寓。
Until then, he isn't allowed any outside contact with the world.
在那之前，他不被允许与外界有任何接触。
He can't call his family.
他无法给家人打电话。
He can't talk to friends.
他不能和朋友说话。
And oh, they tell him, don't forget to put tapes in this little camera here every two hours and record yourself.
哦，他们告诉他，别忘了每两个小时将磁带放入这个小摄像机中并记录自己。
We'll come pick up the tapes once a day.
我们每天都会来取一次磁带。
Then they say, all right, later.
然后他们说，好吧，稍后再说。
Nasubi screams, are you for real?
纳苏比尖叫道，你是认真的吗？
Nasubi says he'd signed no contract.
纳苏比说他没有签署任何合同。
But he didn't have anything better to do, so he sat down and wrote and soon was entering 200 to 300 contests a day.
但他没有更好的事情可做，所以他坐下来写作，很快就每天参加 200 到 300 场比赛。
And while he waited for prizes to arrive, he had no food.
当他等待奖品到达时，他没有食物。
Nasubi got frighteningly thin very quickly.
纳苏比很快就瘦得可怕。
You could see the sharp angles of his collarbones.
你可以看到他锁骨的锐角。
[SPEAKING JAPANESE] Translator Well, starvation is a good word for it.
[说日语] 翻译 嗯，饥饿这个词形容得很好。
The staff got together and would give me basically a very simple little bread each day, so I had bread and water essentially for the first two weeks.
工作人员聚在一起，每天基本上会给我一个非常简单的小面包，所以前两周我基本上吃的是面包和水。
But then as soon as the results started to come in, then that stopped and everything shifted over entirely to things that I could win through sweepstakes.
但一旦结果开始出来，一切就停止了，一切都完全转移到我可以通过抽奖赢得的东西上。
After two weeks, he finally won some sugary drinks.
两周后，他终于赢得了一些含糖饮料。
A few days after that, he won a bag of rice.
几天后，他赢得了一袋大米。
When the postman dropped it off, it was like Christmas.
当邮递员把它寄来的时候，就像圣诞节一样。
Nasubi danced like a madman.
奈须像疯子一样跳舞。
Were you trying to be a good performer and be funny when you were doing that?
当你这样做的时候，你是否想成为一名优秀的表演者并且变得有趣？
Or was it just really genuine joy?
或者这只是真正的快乐？
[SPEAKING JAPANESE] Translator Well, initially, of course, I was there as a performer, and I wanted to be a comedian.
[说日语] 翻译 嗯，当然，最初我是作为一名表演者在那里的，我想成为一名喜剧演员。
But somewhere in the middle, the whole business of staying alive became my full-time occupation.
但在这中间的某个时候，维持生命的整个事情变成了我的全职工作。
So I think what you saw if you saw me dancing, it was really just a human being expressing great joy.
所以我想，如果你看到我跳舞，你所看到的，实际上只是一个人在表达巨大的喜悦。
So he danced for this package of rice.
于是他为这包米跳舞。
But then he stopped short.
但他突然停了下来。
He realized he didn't own a pot to cook the rice in.
他意识到他没有煮饭的锅。
But after a couple days of failed attempts, he figured out that if he put some race in an empty drink container and left it near his single gas burner, it eventually turned into a kind of porridge.
但经过几天的失败尝试后，他发现，如果他将一些赛跑放入一个空饮料容器中，并将其放在他的单个燃气灶附近，它最终会变成一种粥。
[SPEAKING JAPANESE] Translator And I could eat delicious rice every day.
[说日语] 翻译 我每天都能吃到美味的米饭。
I remember how good that felt.
我记得那感觉有多好。
And then there was this slow trepidation as it started to vanish.
然后，当它开始消失时，这种恐惧感慢慢地消失了。
And then it ran out.
然后它就跑完了。
And the only food substitute that I had been able to win in a sweepstakes was dog food.
我在抽奖中赢得的唯一食物替代品是狗粮。
After, let's say, six weeks of eating dog food, when I was able to get more rice and it arrived, I really felt a special kind of joy at being able to sort of return to humanity in a sense and taste delicious rice again every day.
比如说，吃了六个星期的狗粮之后，当我能够得到更多的米饭并且它到达时，我真的感到一种特殊的喜悦，因为能够在某种意义上回归人性，每天再次品尝美味的米饭。
Back then, there was a kind of sweepstakes mania in Japan.
当时，日本有一种抽奖热潮。
The country was in the middle of a terrible recession, and some wondered whether one could subsist entirely on their winnings.
该国正处于严重的经济衰退之中，一些人想知道是否可以完全依靠他们的奖金维持生计。
And so when "Sweepstakes Life" debuted, almost immediately after Nasubi was first shut in the room, it was an instant hit.
因此，当“抽奖人生”首次亮相时，几乎是在Nasubi第一次被关在房间里之后，它立即引起了轰动。
Nasubi had no idea.
纳苏比不知道。
He didn't even know he was on TV.
他甚至不知道自己在电视上。
He believed what the producers had told them, that he'd record some videotapes and maybe someday it would end up on the air.
他相信制片人告诉他们的话，他会录制一些录像带，也许有一天它会播出。
On television, Nasubi's groin was hidden by a purple cartoon eggplant that floated around as he moved.
在电视上，纳苏比的腹股沟被一个紫色的卡通茄子遮住了，茄子随着他的移动而漂浮在周围。
Everything he did was accentuated with ridiculous boing-boing sound effects and puffy rainbow letters floated above his head.
他所做的一切都伴随着可笑的轰鸣声效果，浮肿的彩虹字母漂浮在他的头顶上。
[SOUND EFFECTS AND RANDOM JAPANESE SPEECH]
[音效和随机日语语音]
But these effects popped up just as often when Nasubi was despondent.
但当那须比沮丧时，这些影响也经常出现。
The show took every chance to poke fun at him, whether he was muttering to himself, dancing around, or doing terrible headstands-- you know, the dumb stuff you do when you think no one's watching.
节目抓住一切机会取笑他，无论他是在自言自语、跳舞还是做可怕的倒立——你知道，当你认为没有人在看时你会做的愚蠢的事情。
Except, people were.
只不过，人们是。
For context, in the US, Game of Thrones usually has around 9 million viewers.
就背景而言，在美国，《权力的游戏》通常有大约 900 万观众。
Nasubi had 16 million in a country less than half the size of ours.
纳苏比在一个面积还不到我们一半的国家里拥有 1600 万人口。
People thought Nasubi was the funniest comedy act they'd ever seen.
人们认为那须比是他们见过的最有趣的喜剧表演。
And I have to admit, as a viewer, once in a while when Nasubi got something really awesome in the mail, I couldn't help it, I laughed too.
我必须承认，作为一名观众，偶尔当 Nasubi 在邮件中收到一些非常棒的东西时，我忍不住，我也笑了。
Even though I knew how much he was suffering, I couldn't help it.
尽管我知道他承受着多大的痛苦，但我却无能为力。
His unfiltered joy is contagious.
他未经过滤的快乐是有感染力的。
Though, as a foreigner watching "Sweepstakes Life," most of the time when the studio audience cracked up, I felt sick.
不过，作为一个观看《抽奖人生》的外国人，大多数时候当演播室观众爆笑时，我都会感到恶心。
I thought, what could possibly be funny about this?
我想，这有什么好笑的呢？
[SPEAKING JAPANESE] Translator I mean, that was maybe a time when Japan was going through some things, and they need to sort of do that.
[说日语] 翻译 我的意思是，那可能是日本正在经历一些事情的时候，他们需要这样做。
Roughly 50 years of prosperity has finally come to a close, and people were really uncertain about their futures.
大约50年的繁荣终于结束了，人们对自己的未来感到非常不确定。
I think people just tended to watch the show and say, I got it bad, but look at poor Nasubi.
我认为人们只是倾向于观看演出并说，我做得很糟糕，但看看可怜的纳苏比。
He's got it worse.
他的情况更糟。
Now there's a lot more awareness of the weak and of people who need extra support.
现在，人们对弱者和需要额外支持的人有了更多的认识。
And I don't think the average Japanese, they would think it was funny that there was a guy naked in a room somewhere.
我不认为普通日本人会认为某个房间里有一个赤身裸体的人很有趣。
Nasubi won hundreds of prizes, but many of them were useless to him-- Spice Girls tickets, for example, or a TV with no cable, or a bicycle.
纳苏比赢得了数百个奖品，但其中许多对他来说毫无用处——例如辣妹乐队的门票，或者一台没有有线电视的电视，或者一辆自行车。
He sent away for clothes but never won anything he could wear.
他派人去买衣服，但从未赢得过任何他能穿的东西。
He was naked the entire time he was in that room, for the entire show.
整个演出期间，他在那个房间里的整个过程中都是赤身裸体的。
And as the weeks went by, then months, Nasubi started to look less and less sane.
几周过去了，几个月过去了，纳苏比开始看起来越来越不理智。
He grew a beard.
他留起了胡子。
His hair was wild.
他的头发很乱。
And he started talking differently, slower.
他开始以不同的方式说话，放慢速度。
[SPEAKING JAPANESE] Stephanie Foo He'd make really creepy faces into the camera.
[说日语] Stephanie Foo 他会对着镜头做出非常令人毛骨悚然的鬼脸。
At one point, he won some toys, and he started talking to them.
有一次，他赢得了一些玩具，并开始与它们交谈。
He took a stuffed seal for a walk around the apartment.
他带着一只海豹标本在公寓里散步。
An action figure became his sensei, and he got life advice from it.
一个可动人偶成为了他的老师，他从中得到了人生建议。
And if right now you are sitting there thinking, how in God's good name is this possible?
如果你现在坐在那里思考，看在上帝的份上，这怎么可能呢？
Why was this allowed-- imprisonment, solitary confinement, starvation.
为什么这是允许的——监禁、单独监禁、饥饿。
Watching I thought, this isn't a reality TV show.
看完后我想，这不是真人秀。
It's a psychological experiment made public.
这是一项公开的心理实验。
Plus, boing-boings, of course.
当然，还有嘘声。
[SPEAKING JAPANESE] Stephanie Foo Was there anything preventing you from backing out at that point?
[日语] Stephanie Foo 当时有什么事情阻止你退出吗？
Like, was the door locked?
比如，门锁了吗？
[SPEAKING JAPANESE] Translator No, there was no lock on the door.
[说日语] 翻译 不，门上没有锁。
And producers later asked me, so why didn't you escape?
后来制片人问我，那你为什么不逃呢？
And I was naked, so I would have had to go outside naked and seek help.
而且我是赤身裸体的，所以我不得不赤身裸体地出去寻求帮助。
But I don't think that that's what kept me in there.
但我不认为这就是让我留在那里的原因。
The only thing I really have to say is that I said I'd do it, and I do what I say.
我唯一真正要说的是，我说过我会这么做，并且我会按照我所说的去做。
That was it?
就是这样吗？
The only reason?
唯一的原因是什么？
I kept asking him, but wait, really, why?
我一直问他，但是等等，真的，为什么？
[SPEAKING JAPANESE] Translator There's a phrase, [SPEAKING JAPANESE], the Japanese spirit, which is just that you sort of stick through.
[说日语]翻译有一句话，[说日语]，日本精神，就是你要坚持到底。
You endure things.
你忍受一些事情。
When you're given something, whether it's easier or whether it's hard, you just really do-- you're obliged to follow it through.
当你得到某件事时，无论它是容易还是困难，你都必须真正做到——你有义务坚持到底。
Nasubi did finally win $10,000 worth of prizes.
Nasubi 最终赢得了价值 10,000 美元的奖金。
It took him almost an entire year, but at last, he completed the challenge.
他花了将近一年的时间，终于完成了挑战。
When he reached his goal, producers didn't tell him anything about it.
当他实现目标时，制片人没有告诉他任何事情。
Instead, they snuck into his apartment in the middle of the night, put a blindfold on him, took him out to a car, gave him clothes.
相反，他们在半夜溜进他的公寓，蒙住他的眼睛，带他出去上车，给他衣服。
Nasubi seemed to think this was a good thing.
奈须比似乎觉得这是一件好事。
He was laughing, giggling.
他在笑，咯咯笑。
[SPEAKING JAPANESE] Stephanie Foo But when he took the blindfold off, he found out, he'd been taken to Korea.
[说日语] Stephanie Foo 但当他摘下眼罩时，他发现自己被带到了韩国。
[SPEAKING JAPANESE] Translator When I got off on the other side in Korea, I took off the mask.
[说日语] 翻译 当我在韩国的另一边下车时，我摘下了口罩。
And they said, congratulations.
他们说，恭喜。
You've achieved your $10,000.
您已获得 10,000 美元。
This is your reward.
这是你的奖励。
You get to have a trip in Korea.
你可以去韩国旅行。
So I got to do a little sightseeing that day.
所以那天我必须去参观一下。
And I thought, wow, that was a long thing, boy, what I've been through.
我想，哇，这真是一件漫长的事情，孩子，我经历过的事情。
But then at the end of the day, they took me back to my room, and there was the exact same room set up in the exact same way.
但当一天结束时，他们带我回到我的房间，那里的房间布置得一模一样。
They had recreated his little apartment, complete with the magazines, the stuffed seal, the postcards, exactly how he'd left it, except in Korea.
他们重建了他的小公寓，里面有杂志、封条、明信片，一模一样，除了在韩国的时候。
And they told him, great, now all you have to do is start over and win your airfare back home.
他们告诉他，太好了，现在你所要做的就是重新开始并赢得回家的机票。
[SPEAKING JAPANESE] Translator This was just like somebody just had pulled the floor out from under me, and I just fell.
[说日语] 翻译 这就像有人刚刚把我身下的地板拉开，我就摔倒了。
I didn't know that humans could be that cruel.
我不知道人类可以如此残忍。
Did you feel like you were going insane?
你有没有感觉自己快要疯了？
[SPEAKING JAPANESE] Translator If anything, the opposite of insane.
[说日语] 翻译 如果有的话，那就是疯狂的反义词。
I lost all energy.
我失去了所有的能量。
It's like somebody had just sucked the life out of me.
就好像有人刚刚吸走了我的生命。
I didn't want to talk.
我不想说话。
I didn't want to breathe.
我不想呼吸。
I didn't want to move a muscle.
我不想动一动肌肉。
I had reached the end.
我已经走到了尽头。
I was just-- I was finished.
我只是——我完了。
I told the producer that I wouldn't do it.
我告诉制片人我不会这样做。
I refused.
我拒绝了。
And we went back and forth for quite a while, actually.
事实上，我们来来回回了很长一段时间。
But in the end-- kudos to his skill as a negotiator-- I did give in and do the last section of it.
但最终——对他作为谈判者的技巧表示敬意——我确实屈服了，完成了最后一部分。
Why did you do it?
你为什么这么做？
What did he say that actually convinced you to do it?
他说了什么真正说服你这么做的？
[SPEAKING JAPANESE] Translator Well, it was just I got exhausted, if anything.
[说日语] 翻译 好吧，如果有的话，只是我累坏了。
I mean, he wasn't leaving.
我的意思是，他没有离开。
I couldn't just sort of get up and storm out.
我不能起身就冲出去。
I had made no preparations for being in Korea.
我没有为去韩国做任何准备。
And so at the end, I just said, yeah, whatever.
所以最后我只是说，是的，无论如何。
And so I continued.
所以我继续说。
After all, he was naked with no money in another country.
毕竟他在异国赤身裸体，身无分文。
If you watch the clip, the producers just tell him he's trapped, show him looking shocked, and cut away.
如果你看这个片段，制片人只是告诉他他被困住了，让他看起来很震惊，然后就剪掉了。
The studio audience laughs.
演播室的观众哈哈大笑。
Nasubi continued his writing routine for four more months.
纳苏比又继续他的写作四个月。
And then the final episode aired.
然后最后一集播出了。
Picture it-- the producers sneak into Nasubi's room and blindfold him again, dress him, drive him to another location.
想象一下——制片人潜入纳苏比的房间，再次蒙住他的眼睛，给他穿好衣服，开车送他去另一个地方。
They release him in yet another bare room.
他们把他释放到另一个空荡荡的房间里。
And he sighs and instinctively takes off all his clothes.
他叹了口气，本能地脱掉了所有的衣服。
Then suddenly, all four of the walls around him fall down.
突然间，他周围的四堵墙全部倒塌。
[SCREAMING] Stephanie Foo That's him screaming.
[尖叫] Stephanie Foo 那是他在尖叫。
Turns out, he's onstage in a huge studio in Japan in front of an enormous audience.
事实证明，他在日本一个巨大的录音室的舞台上，面对着众多观众。
[SPEAKING JAPANESE] Stephanie Foo Nasubi, congratulations on your goal.
[日语] Stephanie Foo Nasubi，祝贺你的进球。
Nasubi looks horrified.
奈须比看起来很惊恐。
Two television hosts cautiously approach him and talk to him like a baby, telling him, congratulations.
两位电视主持人小心翼翼地走近他，像个婴儿一样跟他说话，告诉他，恭喜你。
[SPEAKING JAPANESE] Nasubi [SPEAKING JAPANESE]
[说日语] Nasubi [说日语]
[SPEAKING JAPANESE] Stephanie Foo Nasubi says, frightened, my house fell down, and there's all these people here.
[日语] Stephanie Foo Nasubi 说，很害怕，我的房子倒塌了，还有这么多人在这里。
It's finally over, presses the host.
终于结束了，主持人催促道。
You're finished.
你已经完成了。
Nasubi should be happy, but he looks thoroughly weirded out.
那须比应该很高兴，但他看起来很奇怪。
Remember, Nasubi didn't even know he was being broadcast.
请记住，纳苏比甚至不知道他正在被广播。
The producers told him that it was an experiment, that they didn't know if he'd ever make it on air.
制片人告诉他，这是一个实验，他们不知道他是否会在电视上播出。
So he's blown away when they tell him about the TV show, that a secret camera in his apartment once even broadcast at 24-hour live stream of his actions.
因此，当他们告诉他有关电视节目的事情时，他大吃一惊，他公寓里的一个秘密摄像机甚至曾经 24 小时直播他的行为。
They tell him his diaries were published and are best sellers.
他们告诉他，他的日记已经出版并且是畅销书。
Clips from him enjoying a specific brand of ramen turned into commercial and endorsement deals.
他享用特定品牌拉面的视频变成了商业和代言交易。
He was on the cover of magazines.
他出现在杂志封面上。
Then they play a bunch of clips from the show.
然后他们播放了节目中的一堆片段。
Nasubi blinks.
纳须比眨眨眼。
He says, did I do that?
他说，是我干的吗？
That was me?
那是我吗？
[SPEAKING JAPANESE] Translator And so I sat there realizing that this new sort of life was-- you know, I was no longer just a nobody.
[说日语] 翻译 所以我坐在那里意识到这种新的生活是——你知道，我不再只是一个无名小卒。
The entire nation had been watching me for 15 months.
15 个月来，全国人民都在关注我。
And you know, to be honest, I thought, well, what the hell's-- what is my country coming to?
你知道，说实话，我想，我的国家到底会变成什么样子？
And I was, you know, very happy that my journey was not for nothing.
你知道，我很高兴我的旅程没有白费。
But it's still weird.
但还是很奇怪。
Unsurprisingly, Nasubi left the show with some scars.
不出所料，纳苏比带着一些伤疤离开了演出。
He had a lot of trouble holding a conversation for six months.
在六个月的时间里，他很难保持对话。
And he felt sweaty and uncomfortable in clothes for a year.
而且一年来他都感觉衣服出汗、不舒服。
And his role didn't help his comedy career like he'd hoped.
他的角色并没有像他希望的那样对他的喜剧事业有所帮助。
He was mostly offered roles that required him to be goofy and naked.
他接到的大部分角色都要求他表现得傻乎乎、赤裸裸。
He's a D-list celebrity now and has the dwindling bank account to match.
他现在是一名二流名人，但银行账户却在不断减少。
In talking to him, it felt like he's really worked hard to turn that traumatic experience into a positive story he tells himself.
在与他交谈时，感觉他真的很努力地将这段痛苦的经历变成他告诉自己的积极故事。
He even says he's thankful for the experience.
他甚至说他很感谢这次经历。
[SPEAKING JAPANESE] Translator It was-- I don't want to overstate it, but it was kind of meditative in a way.
[说日语] 翻译 这是——我不想夸大它，但在某种程度上它是一种冥想。
I had a lot of time to think about my life and a lot of time to think about a lot of stuff.
我有很多时间思考我的人生，也有很多时间思考很多事情。
That certainly is a very zen way to look at it.
这当然是一种非常禅宗的看待它的方式。
Well, I mean, it's 10-some years since I finished, since I did that project.
嗯，我的意思是，自从我完成那个项目以来，已经有十多年了。
And after that, everything has been much easier and much better.
在那之后，一切都变得更加容易和更好。
I mean, obviously I'm able to deal with things.
我的意思是，显然我有能力处理事情。
I see things happening, or I see situations around myself.
我看到事情正在发生，或者我看到自己周围的情况。
And I think, that's nothing like what I went through in that room.
我想，这与我在那个房间里经历的完全不同。
And people still remember him.
人们仍然记得他。
That's more than one could say for most of the other Denpa Shonen characters.
对于《电波少年》中的大多数其他角色来说，这不仅仅是一个人能说的。
None of them lasted as long as Nasubi or became as famous.
他们中没有一个人像那须比一样存在得那么久，也没有那么出名。
The show ended in 2002, after its ratings began to drop.
该剧于 2002 年结束，收视率开始下降。
[SPEAKING JAPANESE] Translator I came out of the whole thing, in a sense, with the very best of possible results.
[说日语] 翻译 从某种意义上说，我从整个事情中走出来，获得了最好的结果。
A lot of people were not so fortunate.
很多人就没那么幸运了。
There were terrible things that happened related to the show.
与演出相关的可怕的事情发生了。
One contestant on Denpa Shonen almost died of dehydration while trying to hitchhike across Africa.
《电波少年》的一名参赛者在试图搭便车穿越非洲时险些脱水身亡。
Some people were starved until they completed various challenges.
有些人一直挨饿，直到完成各种挑战。
Another man was forced to go into a gay club in Australia and offer condoms to men until he was assaulted.
另一名男子被迫进入澳大利亚的一家同性恋俱乐部，向男子提供安全套，直到遭到袭击。
The video cuts out, but you can hear him scream.
视频被切断，但你可以听到他的尖叫声。
And the mastermind behind all this, the producer of the show, the guy who convinced Nasubi to keep going in Korea-- his name was Toshio Tsuchiya.
而这一切的幕后策划者、该剧的制作人、说服那须比继续在韩国前进的人——他的名字叫土屋敏夫。
Back in the '90s, he was considered the king of Japanese reality TV.
早在90年代，他就被认为是日本真人秀电视之王。
Last year, 14 years after "Sweepstakes Life" ended, Tsuchiya called Nasubi, who wasn't thrilled to hear from him at first.
去年，即《抽奖人生》结束 14 年后，土屋给那须美打了电话，而那须美一开始听到他的消息并不高兴。
[SPEAKING JAPANESE] Translator I had some, let's say, mixed feelings about him, a little resentment maybe.
[说日语] 翻译 我对他有一些，比如说，复杂的感觉，也许还有一点怨恨。
Yeah.
是的。
I kept my distance for a very long time.
我保持距离很长一段时间。
And then actually just last year, he got in touch with me.
事实上就在去年，他联系了我。
And apparently it sort of came to his attention that maybe he had put people through maybe more than they deserved.
显然，他注意到，也许他让人们经历的事情可能超出了他们应得的程度。
And so he invited me to dinner.
于是他邀请我共进晚餐。
And he spent the evening sort of explaining why he did what he did and apologizing.
他整个晚上都在解释他为什么这么做并道歉。
I think we-- yeah, I think we pretty much came to terms, and I welcome the opportunity to work with him again, certainly.
我想我们——是的，我想我们基本上达成了共识，当然，我很高兴有机会再次与他合作。
Wow.
哇。
You would work with him again?
你愿意再和他合作吗？
That's really-- that's shocking.
这真是——太令人震惊了。
And what was his reason for putting you through what he did?
他让你经历他所做的事情的原因是什么？
He wanted something that would move people, and you don't get that out of just sort of somebody playing around.
他想要一些能够感动人们的东西，而你无法从只是玩玩的人那里得到这一点。
He wanted to see something real.
他想看到一些真实的东西。
He wanted to pull miracles out of people.
他想为人们创造奇迹。
And he wanted to-- it was done for the purpose of getting a miracle on film.
他想——这样做是为了在电影中创造奇迹。
And that seemed to me like-- well, I'll be honest, it sounds like something an evil puppet master would say.
在我看来，这就像——好吧，老实说，这听起来像是一个邪恶的傀儡大师会说的话。
So I had to.
所以我不得不这么做。
I talked to Toshio Tsuchiya on the phone.
我和土屋敏夫通了电话。
He's a round, middle-aged guy, bleached platinum blond hair.
他是一个身材圆润的中年男人，有着漂白的白金金色头发。
He confirmed that he reached out to Nasubi and that when they met, Nasubi told him very honestly how painful his experience on the show was.
他证实他联系了纳苏比，当他们见面时，纳苏比非常诚实地告诉他他在节目中的经历是多么痛苦。
Tsuchiya says he listened and was moved.
土屋说他听了并很感动。
But, he says, he wasn't sorry-- about Nasubi, about any of the segments he produced for Denpa Shonen , about any of the contestants.
但是，他说，他并不后悔——关于 Nasubi，关于他为《电波少年》制作的任何片段，关于任何参赛者。
Not in the slightest.
一点也不。
I use the same interpreter for our interview that I use for Nasubi's.
我在采访中使用的翻译与在 Nasubi 的采访中使用的翻译相同。
Here's Tsuchiya.
这里是土屋。
[SPEAKING JAPANESE] Translator I was enthralled by their struggle.
[说日语] 翻译 我被他们的斗争迷住了。
I was thrilled by their personal struggle.
他们的个人奋斗让我感到兴奋。
So I was watching them succeed.
所以我看着他们成功。
I have no regrets about anything I did on that show.
我对我在那个节目中所做的一切都不后悔。
Nasubi said that you apologized to him when you guys talked.
奈须比说你们谈话时你向他道歉了。
Is that correct, or no?
这是正确的还是错误的？
[SPEAKING JAPANESE] Translator Well, I put him through a lot.
[说日语] 翻译 嗯，我让他经历了很多。
I'm not-- if you say that you have a sports team and you have a coach who runs his players through very difficult maneuvers, at the end of the day, he may pat him on the back and say, sorry for putting you through such a rough struggle.
我不是——如果你说你有一支运动队，并且有一位教练带领他的球员完成非常困难的训练，那么在一天结束时，他可能会拍拍他的背说，很抱歉让你经历了如此艰难的挣扎。
It wasn't me expressing that I shouldn't have done the project.
我并不是在表达我不应该做这个项目。
Tsuchiya has a lot of lofty ideas of what the show was trying to accomplish.
土屋对于这部剧想要实现的目标有很多崇高的想法。
And when he talks about them, you do get the sense that it was in fact intended to be a sort of psychological experiment.
当他谈论它们时，你确实会感觉到这实际上是一种心理实验。
[SPEAKING JAPANESE] Translator The whole project was trying to reach at some very elemental simple humanity.
[说日语] 翻译整个项目试图达到一些非常基本的简单人性。
You see, Nasubi had been sort of brought to a state where he was in such an elemental part of his existence that he danced without realizing he had ever danced.
你看，纳苏比已经进入了一种状态，他成为了他存在的一个基本部分，以至于他跳舞时没有意识到自己曾经跳舞过。
And he danced on a regular basis.
他定期跳舞。
The modern individual is sort of shackled by convention and expectation and all these other things that we wear from day to day.
现代人有点受到惯例和期望以及我们每天穿着的所有其他东西的束缚。
And I wanted to see them drop some of that to see this simple humanity and then to see actual gratefulness.
我希望看到他们放弃一些，看到这种简单的人性，然后看到真正的感激之情。
It's weird to think about.
想想就觉得奇怪。
But the fact that the matter is what Tsuchiya's saying is true.
但事实证明，土屋所说的事情是真的。
Denpa Shonen did really capture humanity in a rare way, a way you don't ever really see, even on the craziest of American reality TV shows.
电波少年确实以一种罕见的方式真正捕捉到了人性，一种你从未真正见过的方式，即使在最疯狂的美国真人秀节目中也是如此。
Hungry, starving, alone, unaware that he was being watched, Nasubi was totally innocent and totally animal.
饥饿、饥饿、孤独，没有意识到自己正在被监视，纳苏比完全是天真的，完全是动物。
Of course, it's cruel to bring a human being to that point, and it takes a special kind of cruelty to take someone at their most vulnerable and add wacky sound effects to their suffering.
当然，将一个人带到这个地步是残酷的，而在一个人最脆弱的时候为他们添加古怪的声音效果并在他们的痛苦中添加古怪的声音效果需要一种特殊的残忍。
A couple weeks into Nasubi's challenge, before he won any solid food, when he was hungriest, a delivery men came to the door bearing ramen and stir fry vegetables.
纳苏比挑战几周后，在他赢得任何固体食物之前，当他最饿的时候，一名送货员送上拉面和炒蔬菜上门。
It's 1700 yen altogether, the man said.
一共1700日元，男子说。
I don't have any money, Nasubi replied.
我没有钱，纳苏比回答道。
Sorry, my mistake, the delivery man said, and left.
对不起，我的错，送货员说完就离开了。
Nasubi sat there, his head hung, a contestant in a real-life hunger game, the smell of ramen lingering in the air.
那须比坐在那里，低着头，就像是现实生活中饥饿游戏的参赛者，空气中弥漫着拉面的香味。
Stephanie Foo is one of the producers of our program.
Stephanie Foo 是我们节目的制作人之一。
Coming up, we go to a land where highway [INAUDIBLE] are sunk in a vast meadow, where one man tries to document how things really are.
接下来，我们来到了一片土地，那里的高速公路[听不清]被淹没在一片广阔的草地上，在那里，一个人试图记录事物的真实情况。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.
一分钟后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme, bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，我们每周的节目都会选择一个主题，为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's show, human spectacle.
今天的表演，人间奇观。
We have stories of people who go on display in front of others-- lots and lots of others-- even though they are not so crazy about doing that.
我们有这样的故事：人们在很多很多人面前展示自己，尽管他们并不那么热衷于这样做。
We have arrived at act two of our program.
我们已经进入了计划的第二幕。
Act Two, "I Always Feel Like Somebody's Watching Me." We've talked a lot in today's program so far about reality TV.
第二幕，“我总感觉有人在看着我。”到目前为止，我们在今天的节目中已经谈论了很多有关真人秀的内容。
And of course, what makes reality TV entertaining is very, very simple.
当然，真人秀节目的娱乐性非常非常简单。
And that is editing.
这就是编辑。
Editing-- if they just set up cameras and showed you all 24 hours in anybody's day, how interesting could that possibly be?
编辑——如果他们只是架起摄像机向你展示任何人一天中的 24 小时，那会有多有趣呢？
Well, here is a story of somebody trying just that, a story of everyday people being treated as human spectacle and being treated that way precisely because of their everyday-ness.
嗯，这是一个有人尝试这样做的故事，一个普通人被视为人类奇观的故事，并且正是因为他们的日常性而被这样对待。
Ariel Sabar explains.
阿里尔·萨巴尔解释道。
Here's how it worked.
这是它的工作原理。
On a Tuesday morning in the spring of 1949, a seven-year-old boy named Raymond Birch was fast asleep in his bed.
1949 年春天的一个星期二早晨，一个名叫雷蒙德·伯奇 (Raymond Birch) 的七岁男孩正在床上熟睡。
His mother walked into his bedroom and said, Raymond, time to get up for school.
他的母亲走进他的卧室说，雷蒙德，该起床去上学了。
When the boy opened his eyes, he saw a scientist with a clipboard and timer standing in the corner of his room.
当男孩睁开眼睛时，他看到一位科学家拿着剪贴板和计时器站在他房间的角落里。
The scientist, a stranger to the boy, just stared-- didn't say a word.
这位科学家对男孩来说是个陌生人，只是盯着看——没有说一句话。
The boy squirmed out of bed and reached for his clothes.
男孩从床上爬起来，伸手去拿衣服。
The scientist wrote, 7:01 AM, Raymond picked up a sock.
这位科学家写道，早上 7 点 01 分，雷蒙德拿起了一只袜子。
In the late 1940s and early '50s, scientists followed kids in houses, schoolyards, and streets across the town of Oskaloosa, Kansas, taking pages of notes on the littlest things they did or said.
在 20 世纪 40 年代末和 50 年代初，科学家们在堪萨斯州奥斯卡卢萨镇的房屋、校园和街道上跟踪孩子们，记录下他们所做或所说的最微小的事情。
6:33 PM, Bradley walked deliberately to where his sister sat playing with a puppy and hit her on the head twice, just as hard as he could hit.
下午6点33分，布拉德利故意走到他姐姐正在和一只小狗玩耍的地方，用尽全力打了她的头两下。
The sister looked very surprised and annoyed.
妹妹显得非常惊讶和恼怒。
11:06 AM, Fred skidded on the floor so that he fell with his body partially under the swing.
上午 11 点 06 分，弗雷德在地板上打滑，导致他摔倒，身体的一部分在秋千下。
He yelled whoops, and then lay still since he saw the swing coming back over him.
他大叫一声，然后一动不动地躺着，因为他看到秋千又回到了他身上。
11:37 AM, Margaret's mother asked, why can't you play with your dolls and let that go?
上午 11:37，玛格丽特的妈妈问，为什么你不能玩你的洋娃娃并放开它？
Margaret kept on painting the pillars before, neither looking at her mother nor answering her.
玛格丽特继续画着之前的柱子，没有看母亲，也没有回答她。
All of this was happening under the watch of a University of Kansas psychologist named Roger Barker, who was bent on taking his field in a radically new direction.
所有这一切都是在堪萨斯大学心理学家罗杰·巴克（Roger Barker）的监督下发生的，他决心将自己的领域推向一个全新的方向。
Because psychology was still struggling in those days to be taken seriously as a science, most of Barker's colleagues imitated other kinds of scientists, doing lots of experiments in labs.
由于当时心理学仍在努力被认真对待为一门科学，巴克的大多数同事模仿其他类型的科学家，在实验室里做了很多实验。
But none of this made sense to Barker.
但这些对巴克来说毫无意义。
Humans didn't live in laboratories.
人类并不生活在实验室里。
They live in the real world.
他们生活在现实世界中。
And that's where Barker wanted to study them-- in the wild, the way a botanist looked at flowers in the field or a primatologist tracked apes through a forest.
这就是巴克想要在野外研究它们的地方，就像植物学家观察田野里的花朵或灵长类动物学家在森林中追踪猿类一样。
So when the University of Kansas called in 1947 and asked Barker if he wanted to chair its psychology department, Barker said, I'll take the job, but on one condition.
因此，当 1947 年堪萨斯大学打电话询问巴克是否愿意担任心理学系主任时，巴克说，我会接受这份工作，但有一个条件。
You find me a small town.
你给我找一个小镇。
A dean at the school said he knew just the place, Oskaloosa, population 725.
学校的一位院长说他只知道奥斯卡卢萨这个地方，人口 725 人。
When Roger Barker first drove up into the hills of Northeastern Kansas to see Oskaloosa, he must have been beside himself.
当罗杰·巴克第一次开车到堪萨斯州东北部的山上去看奥斯卡卢萨时，他一定是欣喜若狂。
The place was a Norman Rockwell painting-- not too rich, not too poor, sturdy families in modest houses.
这个地方就像诺曼·洛克威尔的画作——不太富裕，也不太贫穷，坚固的家庭住在简陋的房子里。
It was the picture of Middle America.
这是美国中部的景象。
Barker wanted to study what he called "the naturally occurring behavior of free-ranging persons." And to do that, he told his field workers to become part of the scenery-- visible and friendly but not obtrusive.
巴克想研究他所谓的“自由放养的人自然发生的行为”。为此，他告诉现场工作人员要成为风景的一部分——引人注目、友好但不引人注目。
The last thing we want to do, he said, is give people the Guinea pig feeling.
他说，我们最不想做的就是给人一种豚鼠的感觉。
Barker took his own advice and moved his entire family to Oskaloosa.
巴克采纳了自己的建议，全家搬到了奥斯卡卢萨。
They settled in a beat-up house near the town square, joined the Presbyterian church, and became active in the town's social and civic organizations.
他们在城镇广场附近的一所破旧的房子里定居下来，加入了长老会，并积极参与城镇的社会和公民组织。
And that left Barker just as exposed as the Oskaloosans he planned to put under his microscope.
这使得巴克和他计划将奥斯卡卢桑人放在显微镜下一样暴露在外。
You'll be watching us, a local mother told the researchers one day.
有一天，一位当地母亲告诉研究人员，你们会看着我们。
But don't forget, we'll be watching you.
但别忘了，我们会看着你。
One of the first things Barker wanted to do in Oskaloosa was to document a day in the life of an ordinary boy.
巴克在奥斯卡卢萨想做的第一件事就是记录一个普通男孩一天的生活。
Barker didn't have a hypothesis about the boy or about seven-year-olds.
巴克没有关于这个男孩或七岁孩子的假设。
He wasn't testing for anything in particular.
他没有测试任何特别的东西。
He wanted only to show the world that following a kid for a day could produce a ton of interesting data.
他只想向世界展示，跟踪一个孩子一天可以产生大量有趣的数据。
Scientists could later break down that data in an infinite number of ways, depending on their interests and the goals of their research, which was how little Raymond Birch work up that morning to find a scientist standing over him.
科学家们随后可以根据他们的兴趣和研究目标，以无数种方式分解这些数据，这就是雷蒙德·伯奇那天早上几乎没有找到一位科学家站在他身边的原因。
On that Tuesday, April 26, 1949, eight researchers taking turns, like runners in a relay race, followed Raymond for 13 hours straight.
1949 年 4 月 26 日那个星期二，八名研究人员轮流跟踪雷蒙德，连续 13 个小时，就像接力赛跑者一样。
The book that came out of it, One Boy's Day was 435 pages long.
由此出版的一本书《男孩节》长达 435 页。
It had an entry for nearly every minute of Raymond's day.
雷蒙德一天中几乎每一分钟都有一个条目。
The researchers tried to record not just Raymond's words and movements, but also his perceptions, motives, and feelings.
研究人员不仅试图记录雷蒙德的言语和动作，还试图记录他的看法、动机和感受。
They noted that Raymond mumbled with a mouthful of toast at breakfast.
他们注意到，雷蒙德在吃早餐时嘴里含着烤面包，咕哝着。
They followed him as he walked with his mom to her job at the county clerk's office and looked on as he drew a picture of a cowboy with a long beard.
他们跟着他，他和他的妈妈一起走向她在县书记员办公室的工作地点，并看着他画了一张留着长胡子的牛仔的照片。
They watched Raymond find a baseball bat in the grass and pick it up.
他们看着雷蒙德在草地上找到一根棒球棒并捡了起来。
Oh, boy, he said, according to their notes.
哦，天哪，根据他们的笔记，他说。
He tossed a stone in the air and swung but accidentally clipped a flagpole, 8:24 AM.
上午 8 点 24 分，他向空中扔了一块石头并挥舞，但不小心撞到了旗杆。
This made a wonderful, hollow ringing noise.
这发出了美妙而空洞的铃声。
So he proceeded to hit the flagpole again.
于是他又继续撞旗杆。
8:25 AM, he went around and around and around the pole, hitting it with the bat as he did so, until he became so busy that he fell down, bat and all.
上午 8 点 25 分，他绕着杆子转了一圈又一圈，一边用球棒击打它，直到他忙得连球棒都摔倒了。
Even before the book about Raymond's day was published, Barker felt it was destined for greatness.
甚至在关于雷蒙德的一天的书出版之前，巴克就觉得它注定会取得伟大的成就。
It would find its way onto campuses as a staple of psychology courses, he thought, and into the hands of artists, novelists, and laymen interested in the cultural scene.
他认为，它将作为心理学课程的主要内容进入校园，并进入对文化场景感兴趣的艺术家、小说家和外行人的手中。
"We believe it will become a sort of classic and be in demand for a long time," he wrote in a January, 1951, letter.
他在 1951 年 1 月的一封信中写道：“我们相信它将成为一种经典，并在很长一段时间内受到人们的欢迎。”
But One Boy's Day never took off.
但“男孩节”从未真正兴起。
And by April, 1959, Barker, crestfallen, asked Harper and Row to ship him the 70 remainders languishing in its warehouse.
到了 1959 年 4 月，巴克垂头丧气地要求哈珀和罗将仓库中滞留的 70 件剩余物品运给他。
Part of the trouble was simply the book's premise.
部分问题在于这本书的前提。
In its defiant first sentence, Barker calls the book "a scientific document."
巴克在其挑衅性的第一句话中称这本书是“一份科学文献”。
But other scientists had a hard time seeing that.
但其他科学家很难看到这一点。
The book was just a tick-tock chronology of Raymond's day.
这本书只是雷蒙德那个时代的年表。
There wasn't any theory or analysis.
没有任何理论或分析。
And this annoyed many of the reviewers in serious academic journals.
这惹恼了许多严肃学术期刊的审稿人。
One reviewer wrote, "The reader is struck by the fact that he is encountering only raw data.
一位评论家写道：“读者对他只遇到原始数据这一事实感到震惊。
How can one evaluate such materials without a theoretical framework?" In other words, what does it mean?
如果没有理论框架，如何评估这些材料呢？”换句话说，这意味着什么？
Barker lived in Oskaloosa the rest of his life, but he abandoned his day-in-the-life studies after just a few years.
巴克在奥斯卡卢萨度过了余生，但几年后他就放弃了日常学习。
There were more revealing and less labor intensive ways, he discovered, to study human beings in their natural habitats.
他发现，在自然栖息地研究人类有更多的启发性和更少的劳动密集型方法。
Today, field studies of naturally occurring behavior are no more common in psychology than they were in Barker's time.
今天，对自然发生行为的实地研究在心理学中并不比巴克时代更常见。
The cost and logistics are just too staggering.
成本和物流太惊人了。
One rare but recent Barker-like effort was conducted by UCLA's Center on the Everyday Life of Families.
加州大学洛杉矶分校家庭日常生活中心最近进行了一项罕见但类似巴克的努力。
Researchers there embedded in the homes of 32 middle-class families in Los Angeles for a week and videotaped nearly every waking minute.
研究人员潜入洛杉矶 32 个中产阶级家庭的家中一周，几乎在醒着的每一分钟都进行录像。
But the ratio of cost and effort to interesting results remains as lopsided today as it was in Barker's time.
但今天，成本和努力与有趣结果的比率仍然像巴克时代一样不平衡。
The New York Times reported that, quote, "After more than $9 million and untold thousands of hours of video watching, the researchers found that, well, life in these trenches is exactly what it looks like-- a fireshower of stress, multitasking, and mutual nitpicking."
《纽约时报》报道称，“在花费了超过 900 万美元和无数小时的视频观看之后，研究人员发现，这些战壕里的生活正是它看起来的样子——一场压力、多任务处理和相互挑剔的大火。”
One guy in particular who's not a big fan of these studies-- Raymond Birch, the boy.
特别是一个不太喜欢这些研究的人——男孩雷蒙德·伯奇(Raymond Birch)。
I tracked him down a few years ago.
几年前我就找到了他。
His real name is Gary Morgan, and he's now a retired utility worker in his early 70s living in Pennsylvania.
他的真名是加里·摩根 (Gary Morgan)，现年 70 岁出头，是一名退休公用事业工人，居住在宾夕法尼亚州。
Roger Barker autographed Gary's copy of One Boy's Day and personally inscribed, calling Gary its, quote, "real author."
罗杰·巴克 (Roger Barker) 在加里 (Gary) 的《男孩节》 (One Boy's Day) 上亲笔签名，并亲自题字，称加里为“真正的作者”。
But Gary has yet to get past its first pages.
但加里还没有读完第一页。
I have to say, why is this interesting, he told me.
我不得不说，为什么这很有趣，他告诉我。
There's nothing happening in this book as far as I can tell.
据我所知，这本书里没有发生任何事情。
What is it going to tell them that I was standing there, chewing on my fingernails?
它能告诉他们我站在那里咬指甲的事实吗？
Ariel Sabar is the author of The Outsider , a biography of Roger Barker.
阿里尔·萨巴尔 (Ariel Sabar) 是罗杰·巴克 (Roger Barker) 传记《局外人》(The Outsider) 的作者。
It's available as an Amazon Kindle single.
它以 Amazon Kindle 单曲形式提供。
[MUSIC - "CENTER OF ATTENTION", BY GUSTER]
[音乐 - “注意力中心”，作者：古斯特]
Act Three, "I Am Iraq, I Am an Island." These last few awful weeks in Iraq-- as The New York Times put it, Jjihadists are entrenching positions in the north and west, the National Army seems incapable of challenging them.
第三幕，“我是伊拉克，我是一座岛屿。”正如《纽约时报》所报道的那样，在伊拉克的最后几周，圣战分子正在北部和西部巩固阵地，国民军似乎无力挑战他们。
Lots of fighting, lots of death-- the website Iraq Body Count says that over 1,700 people have died this month, the highest number of deaths of any month since 2007.
大量战斗，大量死亡——伊拉克死亡人数网站称，本月已有 1,700 多人死亡，这是自 2007 年以来死亡人数最多的一个月。
With all that happening, the people of Iraq have become a reluctant spectacle for the rest of us around the world.
随着这一切的发生，伊拉克人民已经成为我们世界各地其他人不情愿的景象。
There's been excellent coverage of the breaking news here on public radio and elsewhere too, but we wondered how it is looking to people inside the country.
这里的公共广播电台和其他地方也对突发新闻进行了精彩的报道，但我们想知道国内人们对此有何看法。
What are they saying?
他们在说什么？
And what is it like to be living there right now?
现在住在那里感觉怎么样？
So between Thursday of last week-- that's June 19-- and Tuesday of this week-- that's June 24-- Nancy Updike called around Iraq to find out.
因此，从上周四（即 6 月 19 日）到本周二（即 6 月 24 日），南希·厄普代克在伊拉克各地打电话询问情况。
I called about a dozen people in different parts of the country, and I found out that that's also what they themselves were doing-- calling friends in other parts of Iraq to try and get some sense of what is going on where.
我给这个国家不同地区的大约十几个人打了电话，我发现他们自己也在做这件事——给伊拉克其他地区的朋友打电话，试图了解那里正在发生的事情。
Because what's happening to Iraqis right now is very different depending on where they are.
因为伊拉克人现在所发生的事情根据他们所在的地方而有很大不同。
Hello?
你好？
Nancy Updike Hello, Joe Amir, it's Nancy.
南希·厄普代克 你好，乔·阿米尔，我是南希。
Yes, Nancy.
是的，南希。
You called in a very good time.
你打来的时间非常好。
I'm just about to get into my car for someone else.
我正要为别人上车。
This is Joe Amir Dzay.
我是乔·阿米尔·扎伊。
For years, he worked for an American NGO that dealt with land mines in Iraq.
多年来，他一直在一家处理伊拉克地雷问题的美国非政府组织工作。
Now it says hands free, so I can talk and drive.
现在它说免提，所以我可以说话和开车。
He lives in Erbil.
他住在埃尔比勒。
It's a city in the north, the part of Iraq that's governed by the Kurds.
这是伊拉克北部的一座城市，由库尔德人统治。
They have their own very tough security force called the Peshmerga who've been keeping Erbil safe.
他们有自己非常强大的安全部队，称为“佩什梅加”，他们一直保护埃尔比勒的安全。
If you tell your family, I am going to Erbil, It's in Iraq-- they will just cannot believe it.
如果你告诉你的家人，我要去埃尔比勒，那是在伊拉克——他们会难以置信。
Right.
正确的。
Joe Amir What?
乔·阿米尔 什么？
You are going to Iraq?
你要去伊拉克吗？
Right?
正确的？
Right.
正确的。
Right.
正确的。
Joe Amir And you can't believe how safe is Erbil and how it is growing.
乔·阿米尔（Joe Amir） 您无法相信埃尔比勒有多安全以及它的发展速度如何。
I mean, I am driving now.
我的意思是，我现在正在开车。
This is bicycle rider.
这是骑自行车的人。
It seems like it's a bicycle race.
看起来就像是一场自行车比赛。
Oh, there's a bicycle race?
哦，有自行车比赛吗？
Joe Amir Yes.
乔·阿米尔 是的。
Two, four, six, 12-- 11 bicycle drivers.
两个、四个、六个、十二——十一个自行车司机。
They are exactly in front of me now passing by.
他们现在就在我面前经过。
[HONKING] Joe Amir OK.
[鸣喇叭] 乔·阿米尔 好的。
Just say hello to them.
只要跟他们打个招呼就可以了。
OK.
好的。
No, no. Erbil is definitely safe.
不，不。埃尔比勒绝对安全。
It's not unusual for a war or conflict to have pockets like this, where life is incongruously normal.
战争或冲突中出现这样的情况并不罕见，那里的生活异常正常。
But because Erbil and other Kurdish areas are safe at this point, they're also places that Iraqis and Syrians are fleeing to.
但由于埃尔比勒和其他库尔德地区目前是安全的，因此它们也是伊拉克人和叙利亚人逃往的地方。
The UN says, there are now an estimated 300,000 displaced people in the Kurdish region of the Iraq.
联合国称，伊拉克库尔德地区目前估计有30万流离失所者。
Some are living in hotels or with families, but others are just sweltering in camps.
有些人住在酒店或与家人在一起，但其他人只是在营地里闷热。
In these camps, they don't have air coolers.
在这些营地里，他们没有空气冷却器。
They don't have cold water.
他们没有冷水。
You know, all these people are in these camps.
你知道，所有这些人都在这些营地里。
It's a disaster.
这是一场灾难。
Nancy, the temperature in Erbil-- it is 6:30 in the evening, and the temperature is 35 Celsius, I am talking about.
南希，埃尔比勒的气温——现在是晚上6点30分，我说的是35摄氏度。
Yeah, 35 is-- I'm going to see what it is in Fahrenheit.
是的，35 是——我要看看它的华氏度是多少。
Hold on.
坚持，稍等。
Yeah, it's 95 degrees Fahrenheit-- so very hot even though it's night.
是的，气温是 95 华氏度——即使是晚上也非常热。
No, no, no. Now it's very cool.
不，不，不。现在很酷。
For us, it's very cool.
对我们来说，这非常酷。
Now, now, this is the time when people come out for walking and you know, going for coffee and stuff like that.
现在，现在，这是人们出去散步的时候，你知道，去喝咖啡之类的东西。
But in the noon time, it goes up to 44.
但到了中午，它就上升到了44。
Next month in the noon time, it goes up to 50, 5-0.
下个月中午，比分升至 50，5-0。
That is 120 degrees.
那是120度。
If you've ever been in a place that hot, you know it feels like being punched in the face.
如果你曾经去过这么热的地方，你就会知道那感觉就像是脸上被打了一拳。
Joe Amir is Kurdish.
乔·阿米尔是库尔德人。
He has two young kids, six and four years old.
他有两个孩子，一个六岁，一个四岁。
And for so many years, he and his wife worried that he might be killed for working for Americans, or just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
多年来，他和他的妻子一直担心他可能会因为为美国人工作，或者只是在错误的时间出现在错误的地点而被杀。
Joe Amir says if there is no more Iraq, if it was chopped up into different countries, he really wouldn't miss it.
乔·阿米尔说，如果伊拉克不再存在，如果它被分割成不同的国家，他真的不会怀念它。
At least you have Kurdistan state.
至少你有库尔德斯坦国家。
So whether it will be divided into four part, three part, or two part, we don't care, as long as there is Kurdistan state in place.
因此，无论它会分为四部分、三部分还是两部分，我们都不在乎，只要库尔德斯坦国家存在就行。
Everybody, every Kurd will hope to have independent Kurdistan, really.
每个人，每个库尔德人都希望拥有独立的库尔德斯坦，真的。
I mean, nobody would like to stay any longer with Iraq.
我的意思是，没有人愿意再留在伊拉克。
About 60 miles west and a little north of Erbil is Mosul.
埃尔比勒以西约 60 英里，稍北一点就是摩苏尔。
That's the first city in Iraq that was invaded by ISIS, the Sunni militant group that's been fighting in Syria and now is in parts of Iraq.
这是伊拉克第一个被伊斯兰国入侵的城市，该组织是逊尼派武装组织，一直在叙利亚作战，现在已经进入伊拉克部分地区。
One of the other producers here called a man in Mosul, Ziad al-Sinjary.
这里的另一位制片人给摩苏尔的一个人打电话，叫齐亚德·辛贾里 (Ziad al-Sinjary)。
He's a stringer for different news outfits-- Reuters, the BBC.
他是不同新闻机构——路透社、英国广播公司——的特约记者。
We reached him on June 19, nine days after ISIS took over the city.
我们于 6 月 19 日联系到他，即 ISIS 占领这座城市九天后。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Translator Actually, I went out today to do some shopping.
[非英语演讲] 翻译 其实，我今天出去买东西了。
I went to the center of Mosul.
我去了摩苏尔市中心。
I bought some things from there.
我从那里买了一些东西。
And I found that life is going on.
我发现生活还要继续。
Most of the markets are open.
大多数市场都是开放的。
There's lots of food, vegetables, and the prices are against the expected.
食物、蔬菜很多，价格也超出预期。
The prices have went down.
价格已经下降了。
We were expecting that it would go up.
我们预计它会上涨。
The Iraqi security forces who used to police Mosul are now all gone.
曾经驻扎在摩苏尔的伊拉克安全部队现在已经全部消失。
They were mostly Shiite, and Ziad says plenty of the city's Sunni majority felt like, good riddance.
他们大多是什叶派，齐亚德说，该市许多占多数的逊尼派人士都觉得，摆脱了一切真是太好了。
When Ziad talks about ISIS, he calls them "the gunmen."
当齐亚德谈论伊斯兰国时，他称他们为“枪手”。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Translator Well, we know that the gunmen are supposed to be barbarians.
[非英语演讲] 翻译 嗯，我们知道枪手应该是野蛮人。
But you can go anywhere.
但你可以去任何地方。
You can park anywhere.
你可以在任何地方停车。
You can do whatever you want.
你可以做任何你想做的事。
And this is something strange.
这很奇怪。
This is something that we weren't expecting.
这是我们没有预料到的。
Life in general, most of the roads in Mosul have been opened.
生活总体来说，摩苏尔大部分道路已经开通。
The checkpoints have been removed.
检查站已被移除。
The concrete barriers that were there are removed.
那里的混凝土障碍物被拆除。
There is no violence.
没有暴力。
There is no shooting.
没有射击。
That's how Ziad sees it.
齐亚德就是这么认为的。
I reached another man in Mosul, a political science professor at the University there, who said, of course there's no violence, because it was ISIS who was doing the shooting and the bombing when they were attacking the Iraqi security forces.
我联系了摩苏尔的另一位男子，他是那里大学的政治学教授，他说，当然没有暴力，因为伊斯兰国在袭击伊拉克安全部队时进行了枪击和爆炸。
Now that they've driven the security forces out of the city, ISIS is running the place.
现在他们已经将安全部队赶出了这座城市，伊斯兰国正在控制这个地方。
The professor said he's not going to work these days.
教授说他这几天不去上班。
Higher education isn't really functioning in the city.
高等教育在这座城市并没有真正发挥作用。
He said he's afraid of ISIS and what they'll do next.
他说他害怕伊斯兰国以及他们下一步会做什么。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Translator ISIS have distributed their symbol to each and every mosque.
[非英语演讲] 译者 ISIS 已将其标志分发给每座清真寺。
There's no mosque operating in the city without their logo basically on the gate and inside where the preacher stands.
这座城市里没有一家清真寺没有他们的标志，基本上都在大门和传教士站立的地方。
Their messages are that first we are in a transitional state.
他们的信息是，首先我们处于过渡状态。
As soon as we establish the fundamentals of the Islamic state, things are going to be different.
一旦我们确立了伊斯兰国家的基础，事情就会有所不同。
We are coming to relieve the city of the forces of evil, meaning the Iraqi state forces, the Shiites.
我们来是为了清除这座城市的邪恶势力，即伊拉克国家军队、什叶派。
The city itself is in deep slumber.
这座城市本身正处于沉睡之中。
It's terrified, and fear is all around.
它很害怕，恐惧无处不在。
Currently there are no assassinations and killings, but people are still afraid because they know how ISIS operates.
目前没有发生暗杀和杀戮，但人们仍然感到害怕，因为他们知道伊斯兰国是如何运作的。
They know that it's only a matter of time and that ISIS is now being so nice only because they want to win people over.
他们知道这只是时间问题，伊斯兰国现在如此友善只是因为他们想赢得人们的支持。
For the people of Mosul, there's no other solution now other than being quiet and sitting at home and waiting for the worst thing to happen.
对于摩苏尔人民来说，除了安静地坐在家里等待最糟糕的事情发生之外，现在没有其他解决办法。
In Baghdad, I called another professor, a professor of linguistics, Mohammed.
在巴格达，我给另一位语言学教授穆罕默德打了电话。
He is going to work.
他要去工作了。
He said he was shocked when ISIS went into Mosul and worried.
他说，当“伊斯兰国”进入摩苏尔时，他感到震惊和担忧。
But he says now he's not that worried.
但他说现在他没那么担心了。
He's Shia in a city, Baghdad, that's majority Shia.
他是巴格达这座城市的什叶派，那里的大多数是什叶派。
The first time I interviewed Mohammed was four years ago, just before the US officially ended its combat mission in Iraq.
我第一次采访穆罕默德是在四年前，就在美国正式结束在伊拉克的战斗任务之前。
And he told me at the time about going to lunch with a Sunni friend.
当时他告诉我要和一位逊尼派朋友共进午餐。
Again, Mohammed is Shia.
再说一次，穆罕默德是什叶派。
And the friend told him casually over lunch, when the Americans leave, we-- the Sunni resistance-- we are going to take back the country.
午餐时，朋友漫不经心地告诉他，当美国人离开时，我们——逊尼派抵抗运动——将夺回这个国家。
And after telling that story, Mohammed talked about Shia-Sunni tensions in Iraq generally.
讲完这个故事后，穆罕默德谈到了伊拉克什叶派与逊尼派之间的紧张局势。
This was back in 2010.
这是2010年的事了。
And I called him now, because I wanted to ask him something, which is, in the United States, what we hear about Iraq and the fighting is that it's all sectarian.
我现在给他打电话，因为我想问他一件事，那就是，在美国，我们听到的有关伊拉克和战斗的信息是，这都是宗派主义的。
It's Sunni versus Shia.
这是逊尼派与什叶派的对决。
ISIS and the other groups that are fighting with them are Sunni.
伊斯兰国和其他与之作战的组织都是逊尼派。
The prime minister, Shia.
首相，什叶派。
The militias driving around Baghdad, Shia-- and so on, and so on.
民兵在巴格达、什叶派周围行驶，等等。
But when I've talked to Iraqis over the last 10 years-- and this is my experience, but other reporters have also told me they get this-- if I ask an Iraqi, are you Sunni or Shia, their answer is often an annoyed, why are you asking me that?
但当我在过去十年里与伊拉克人交谈时——这是我的经验，但其他记者也告诉我他们明白这一点——如果我问一个伊拉克人，你是逊尼派还是什叶派，他们的答案往往是恼火，你为什么问我这个？
That's not how I think about things.
我不是这么想的。
I'm Iraqi.
我是伊拉克人。
So I asked the professor, what's going on?
于是我就问教授，这是怎么回事？
And his take was, of course they say that-- in public.
当然，他们是在公开场合这么说的。
But deep inside, they are all defending their sectarian identity.
但在内心深处，他们都在捍卫自己的宗派身份。
And when they are at home, they will teach their children how to hate Shia.
当他们在家时，他们会教孩子如何憎恨什叶派。
And Shias, they teach them how to hate Sunnis.
还有什叶派，他们教他们如何憎恨逊尼派。
In fact, somebody said it, that sectarians is like adultery.
事实上，有人说过，宗派之争就像通奸。
All are denouncing publicly, but all are, you know-- let's just say--
所有人都在公开谴责，但所有人都知道——让我们这么说吧——
People denounce it in public, and then they just do it behind [INAUDIBLE]?
人们公开谴责它，然后他们就在背后这样做[听不清]？
Yes.
是的。
Everyone is doing it.
每个人都在这样做。
Everyone is sectarian, actually.
其实每个人都是有宗派的。
Now, look at the social network, the Facebook pages.
现在，看看社交网络 Facebook 页面。
Because many people have their imitation names, have their Sunni names, so they will speak it freely against the Shiites.
因为很多人都有自己的假名，有逊尼派的名字，所以他们会随意用它来反对什叶派。
And the Shiites will speak it freely against the Sunnis.
什叶派将畅所欲言地反对逊尼派。
In the morning, we'll say, no, there is no difference between Shias and Sunnis.
早上，我们会说，不，什叶派和逊尼派之间没有区别。
We are all Iraqis.
我们都是伊拉克人。
So this is why when you ask somebody, OK, are you Sunni or Shia, they say, no, please don't ask me.
所以这就是为什么当你问某人，好吧，你是逊尼派还是什叶派时，他们说，不，请不要问我。
I am Iraqi.
我是伊拉克人。
I mean, all of these things that you're saying, is this what you think, you personally, when you go to University, you talk against sectarianism if anyone brings it up.
我的意思是，您所说的所有这些事情都是您个人的想法，当您上大学时，如果有人提出宗派主义，您就会反对宗派主义。
But when you get home, when you're private, you're like, this is the way it is, is that true for you, personally?
但当你回到家，当你是私人的时候，你会想，事情就是这样，对你个人来说，这是真的吗？
Yes.
是的。
Yes, actually.
是的，实际上。
It's the truth.
这是事实。
I myself do it.
我自己做。
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Frankly speaking.
坦白说。
I'm going to be frank with you.
我要对你坦白说。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, I told you, yes.
是的，我告诉过你，是的。
Nancy Updike Yes.
南希·厄普代克 是的。
Oh, hi, Nancy.
哦，嗨，南希。
Nancy Updike How are you?
南希·厄普代克 你好吗？
I'm good.
我很好。
I'm good.
我很好。
I'm good.
我很好。
Nancy Updike This is the last call I'm going to play for you.
南希·厄普代克 这是我为你打的最后一个电话。
Talal Ajeel-- he's near Basra, way in the south of Iraq, a seven-plus hour drive from Baghdad.
塔拉勒·阿吉勒（Talal Ajeel）——他位于伊拉克南部的巴士拉附近，距离巴格达有七个多小时的车程。
Talal used to work for USAID.
塔拉勒曾为美国国际开发署工作。
Now he works for an oil company in the south.
现在他在南方的一家石油公司工作。
But his family-- his wife and his five-year-old daughter-- are back in Baghdad.
但他的家人——他的妻子和五岁的女儿——已经回到巴格达。
His daughter, when this crisis started, stopped going to kindergarten.
当这场危机开始时，他的女儿不再去幼儿园了。
And his wife has taken her vacation so that she can just sit tight at home with their daughter and see how things play out in the next few weeks.
他的妻子已经休假了，这样她就可以和女儿坐在家里，看看接下来几周事情会如何发展。
Talal is Shia, but he's secular.
塔拉勒是什叶派，但他是世俗的。
And he lives in a neighborhood that used to be mixed-- Sunni, Shia, Kurd-- and then became mostly Sunni after the sectarian fighting in Baghdad during the Iraq War.
他居住的社区曾经是逊尼派、什叶派、库尔德人混居的社区，但在伊拉克战争期间巴格达发生教派冲突后，大部分地区都变成了逊尼派。
Talal and I talked a couple of times.
塔拉勒和我聊过几次。
This call was at night after he got off work.
这个电话是晚上他下班后打来的。
You know, Nancy, the common issue that you hear from all Iraqis is that we don't want to divide Iraq into three countries-- Kurd, Sunni, Shia.
你知道，南希，你从所有伊拉克人那里听到的共同问题是，我们不想将伊拉克分为三个国家——库尔德人、逊尼派、什叶派。
This is a nightmare for us.
这对我们来说是一场噩梦。
And today I heard that this might be happening.
今天我听说这可能会发生。
Where did you hear it?
你在哪里听到的？
Talal Ajeel In the company we were talking.
塔拉勒·阿吉尔 (Talal Ajeel) 我们在公司里聊天。
We were a few Iraqis, you know, talking to each other.
你知道，我们是几个伊拉克人，正在互相交谈。
And some of the Iraqis, they made this point.
一些伊拉克人也提出了这一点。
I mean, we're going to divide Iraq into Kurd, Sunni, Shia.
我的意思是，我们将把伊拉克分为库尔德人、逊尼派、什叶派。
[INAUDIBLE] they want their region.
[听不清]他们想要自己的地区。
They would be happy if it's divided, and they would just keep the south?
如果分裂的话他们会很高兴，他们会保留南方吗？
Yeah.
是的。
In Basra, yes.
在巴士拉，是的。
Nancy Updike I mean, they have all the oil.
南希·厄普代克 我的意思是，他们拥有所有的石油。
Or a lot of it.
或者很多。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Yeah, lots of people in Basra, they said, OK, [INAUDIBLE].
是的，巴士拉的很多人都说，好吧，[听不清]。
We don't need Baghdad.
我们不需要巴格达。
We don't need [INAUDIBLE].
我们不需要[听不清]。
We don't need Kurds.
我们不需要库尔德人。
Have our own region.
有我们自己的地区。
This is a nightmare.
这是一场噩梦。
I mean, is this the new Iraq?
我的意思是，这是新的伊拉克吗？
If it was divided that way, Sunnis in the north, Shia in the south, and then Kurdistan, where would you live?
如果这样划分，北部是逊尼派，南部是什叶派，然后是库尔德斯坦，你会住在哪里？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't have any other place to live.
我没有其他地方可以住。
I cannot live with Sunnis.
我不能和逊尼派一起生活。
I cannot live with Shia.
我不能和什叶派一起生活。
I cannot live with Kurds.
我不能和库尔德人一起生活。
I think we're going to be homeless or something like that.
我想我们将会无家可归或者类似的事情。
I don't know.
我不知道。
It's a nightmare.
这是一场噩梦。
In case this isn't clear, or course Talal could live with Shias.
如果这还不清楚，或者塔拉勒当然可以与什叶派一起生活。
He's Shia.
他是什叶派。
But the point is that he doesn't want to live in a sectarian, one-horse country or city.
但关键是他不想生活在一个宗派之争、一匹马的国家或城市。
He wants to live in Iraq.
他想住在伊拉克。
He wants his daughter to be Iraqi.
他希望他的女儿是伊拉克人。
He wants to live in a neighborhood like they used to live in.
他想住在他们以前住过的地方。
Talking to Talal, I kept thinking about Yugoslavia-- this country that existed for decades and then just didn't.
与塔拉勒交谈时，我一直在思考南斯拉夫——这个国家存在了几十年，然后就消失了。
Suddenly you couldn't be Yugoslavian anymore.
突然间你就不能再是南斯拉夫了。
You had to go be with your own kind, which was whatever the guys with guns decided it was.
你必须和自己的同类在一起，这就是那些持枪的人决定的。
So anyway, Nancy, it's not good.
所以无论如何，南希，这都不好。
I mean, I don't know if the United States is feeling that-- maybe you can answer this question.
我的意思是，我不知道美国是否有这种感觉——也许你可以回答这个问题。
I doubt it, but go ahead.
我对此表示怀疑，但继续吧。
Talal Ajeel [CHUCKLING] All right.
塔拉勒·阿杰尔 [咯咯笑] 好吧。
All right.
好的。
I got you.
我接到你了。
Yeah.
是的。
[INAUDIBLE].
[听不清]。
Now we're in the middle.
现在我们处于中间。
We cannot go back where we started and fix this.
我们无法回到起点并解决这个问题。
We cannot go any further.
我们不能再进一步了。
Every group is caring only about himself or his people.
每个团体只关心他自己或他的人民。
And at the end of this, we're going to divide Iraq.
最终，我们将分裂伊拉克。
I mean, I used to have a country.
我的意思是，我曾经有过一个国家。
That's how I feel right now.
这就是我现在的感受。
I used to have a country.
我曾经有一个国家。
Another checkpoint.
另一个检查站。
Police checkpoint?
警察检查站？
Talal Ajeel It's a police checkpoint.
Talal Ajeel 这是一个警察检查站。
Nancy Updike is one of the producers of our program.
南希·厄普代克是我们节目的制作人之一。
[MUSIC - "IS EVERYTHING HAPPENING UNCONTROLLABLY" BY BILL EAST]
[音乐 - 比尔·伊斯特的《一切都无法控制地发生》]
Well, our program was produced today by Stephanie Foo and myself, with Alex Blumberg, Ben Calhoun, Sean Cole, Chana Joffe-Walt, Sarah Koenig, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Brian Reed, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
今天我们的节目由 Stephanie Foo 和我本人制作，参与人员包括 Alex Blumberg、Ben Calhoun、Sean Cole、Chana Joffe-Walt、Sarah Koenig、Miki Meek、Jonathan Menjivar、Brian Reed、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Production help from Alison Davis.
艾莉森·戴维斯提供制作帮助。
Seth Lind is our operations director.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的运营总监。
Emily Condon's our production manager.
艾米丽·康登是我们的生产经理。
Elise Bergerson's our office manager.
埃莉斯·伯格森是我们的办公室经理。
Adrienne Mathiowetz runs our website.
艾德丽安·马修维茨 (Adrienne Mathiowetz) 负责运营我们的网站。
Research help from Michelle Harris and Julie Beer.
米歇尔·哈里斯和朱莉·比尔的研究帮助。
Music help from Damien Graef and Rob Geddis.
Damien Graef 和 Rob Geddis 提供音乐帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] And special thanks to Becca Heller and the Iraqi Refugee Assistance Project.
[致谢] 特别感谢 Becca Heller 和伊拉克难民援助项目。
They're helping hundreds of Iraqis try to escape the violence and get to safety in the United States.
他们正在帮助数百名伊拉克人试图逃离暴力并到达美国的安全地带。
Their website is refugeerights.org.
他们的网站是refugeerights.org。
And to Kirk Johnson and The List Project.
还有柯克·约翰逊和名单项目。
Regular listeners to our show know they help Iraqis who worked for the United States and are now in danger because of it get to safety.
经常收听我们节目的听众都知道，他们帮助那些为美国工作但现在因美国而处于危险之中的伊拉克人获得了安全。
Their website is thelistproject.org.
他们的网站是 thelistproject.org。
Both of these organizations have been flooded with emails in the last two weeks from people needing help.
过去两周，这两个组织都收到了大量来自需要帮助的人的电子邮件。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International-- this week for the last week.
《美国生活》本周由国际公共广播电台播出，也是最后一周。
They've been our partner for 17 years, and they've been a great partner, and we wish them the best.
他们已经成为我们的合作伙伴 17 年了，他们是一位出色的合作伙伴，我们祝愿他们一切顺利。
Thanks as always to Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢托里·马拉蒂亚。
You know, at the beginning of this show, when we started This American Life together, even then, he already wanted to disavow any responsibility for what happens here each week.
你知道，在这个节目开始时，当我们一起开始《美国生活》时，即使在那时，他也已经想否认对这里每周发生的事情负有任何责任。
He told me--
他告诉我——
This is what I'm going to do.
这就是我要做的。
You're going to run the show, but you will now hypnotize me, and I will forget.
你将主持大局，但你现在会催眠我，而我会忘记。
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life .
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
Announcer PRI, Public Radio International.
国际公共广播电台 PRI 播音员。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。