524: I Was So High - This American Life
You are using an outdated browser.
您正在使用过时的浏览器。
Please upgrade your browser or activate Google Chrome Frame to improve your experience.
请升级您的浏览器或激活 Google Chrome 浏览器内嵌框架以改善您的体验。
Sign up for a free Life Partners trial, and you can watch the video “A Night of Stories and Improv.”
注册免费试用《Life Partners》，您可以观看视频“故事与即兴表演之夜”。
00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #524 | May 2, 2014 524: I Was So High Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 524 集 | 2014 年 5 月 2 日 524：我太兴奋了 注：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass One of the producers of our radio program, Sean Cole, used to live in Toronto.
序言 Ira Glass 我们广播节目的制作人之一肖恩·科尔 (Sean Cole) 曾经住在多伦多。
And he went out to bars a lot when he was there.
当他在那里的时候，他经常去酒吧。
And at one point, he heard this rumor about the places that he was hanging out.
有一次，他听到了关于他常去的地方的谣言。
A friend of mine basically said, the thing about these bars-- he actually said, the gasoline that allows them to function was cocaine.
我的一个朋友基本上说，这些酒吧的事情 - 他实际上说，让它们发挥作用的汽油是可卡因。
The bartenders were on coke.
调酒师正在喝可乐。
And I was like, how did I not notice?
我当时想，我怎么没注意到？
You know?
你知道？
Yeah.
是的。
Sean Cole And I wondered how true that was.
肖恩·科尔 我想知道这是否属实。
Did you do any coke tonight?
今晚你喝可乐了吗？
Bartender 1 Yeah.
调酒师 1 是的。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
So that's like, what is that.
就像，那是什么。
Bartender 1 That's like the tip of a key.
调酒师 1 这就像钥匙的尖端。
So this is one of about a dozen bartenders that I interviewed, all anonymously.
这是我匿名采访的十几位调酒师之一。
Like a house key.
就像一把房子钥匙。
You sniff it off of that.
你从中嗅出它的味道。
But I have done it while I'm working.
但我在工作的时候就做到了。
But I don't do it until later, like past 1:00.
但我要等到晚些时候才这样做，比如 1:00 以后。
Umm, like, every weekend.
嗯，就像每个周末。
Ira Glass I had this experience years ago.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）我几年前就有过这样的经历。
A friend sat me down and told me that she'd just started going to AA.
一位朋友让我坐下来，告诉我她刚刚开始参加 AA。
And she wanted me to know that she knew how annoying it must have been for me and all of our friends at the time that she was always on coke back when we first were getting to know each other.
她想让我知道，她知道当我们第一次认识彼此时，她总是吸可卡因，这对我和我们所有的朋友来说一定是多么烦人。
She was running to the bathroom all the time.
她一直跑到卫生间。
She was really hyper.
她真的很亢奋。
And I told her, I had no idea.
我告诉她，我不知道。
I told her, I just assumed that's your personality.
我告诉她，我只是假设这就是你的性格。
You're a little manic, small bladder.
你有点狂躁，小膀胱。
And of course, right?
当然，对吧？
I think, if you're not a daily drug user, you're not a big drug user, it doesn't occur to you that the people around you might be high.
我想，如果你不是一个日常吸毒者，你也不是一个大吸毒者，你不会想到你周围的人可能是吸毒者。
And Sean found that this bar scene he thought he knew so well did, actually, seem to be run on cocaine.
肖恩发现，这个他以为自己很熟悉的酒吧场景实际上似乎是靠可卡因进行的。
So lots of bars in certain areas of town, definitely, coke is like fuel for the staff.
所以在城镇的某些地区有很多酒吧，毫无疑问，可乐就像员工的燃料。
Partly because, you know, these bars, it's like drinking on the job is kind of expected.
部分原因是，你知道，在这些酒吧，工作中喝酒似乎是理所当然的。
People are buying me shots.
人们正在给我买镜头。
And I see people I know, and I'm buying them shots.
我看到我认识的人，我就给他们买酒。
And then, just, you start to get the spins.
然后，你就开始旋转。
It's like, after you do four or five shots, I'm like, OK.
就像，在你做了四五次射击之后，我就想，好吧。
I don't want to be too drunk.
我不想喝得太醉。
I need something to straighten me up.
我需要一些东西来让我振作起来。
Jeez, I really want a line right now to straighten this up.
天哪，我现在真的想要一条线来解决这个问题。
Everyone uses it so loosely.
每个人都这么宽松地使用它。
It's straightening out.
它正在变直。
You need to straighten out.
你需要理顺。
Yeah, you just take a quick little jump down to the bathroom, straighten yourself up.
是的，你只要快速跳到浴室，站直身体即可。
Come upstairs.
上楼来吧。
[LAUGHS] Yeah.
[笑]是的。
Ira Glass So their bosses have to know, right?
Ira Glass 所以他们的老板必须知道，对吧？
For the first little while, the bar I worked at, the managers were doing lines of cocaine in order to sober up enough so they could cash out the bartenders, who were completely inebriated.
在我工作的最初一段时间里，经理们在喝可卡因，以便足够清醒，这样他们就可以向完全喝醉的调酒师兑现。
Oh!
哦！
I also knew policemen who were partaking.
我也认识参与其中的警察。
In cocaine?
可卡因？
Bartender 3 In the bathroom, with the manager, in uniform.
调酒师 3 在浴室里，和经理一起，穿着制服。
It blew me away!
它让我大吃一惊！
I was so naive.
我太天真了。
I was like, what?
我当时想，什么？
It would be like finding out Superman is-- you know--
这就像发现超人是——你知道的——
Doing cocaine.
吸食可卡因。
Bartender 3 --doing cocaine!
调酒师3——吸食可卡因！
Exactly.
确切地。
Of course, to put it in perspective, this is a cop doing cocaine in a city whose mayor was caught on video smoking crack and stayed in his job.
当然，从正确的角度来看，这是一名警察在一个城市中吸食可卡因，而该城市的市长因吸食可卡因的视频而被抓获，并继续留任。
He's finally going to rehab now.
现在他终于可以康复了。
And all of this got us thinking here at the radio show, how many people around us are high right now?
所有这一切让我们在广播节目中思考，我们周围有多少人现在处于兴奋状态？
Like, right this second?
就像，就在这一秒？
OK, if you're out in the world right now as you're hearing me say these words, look around at the people around you.
好吧，如果你现在在外面的世界听到我说这些话，请环顾一下你周围的人。
Look at their faces.
看看他们的脸。
Could one of them be high?
其中之一可能很高吗？
And I mean, everywhere you go, right?
我的意思是，无论你走到哪里，对吧？
It's like, for example, we found this book that came out a couple of years ago by a guy named Ethan Bryson.
举例来说，我们发现这本书是几年前由一个名叫伊森·布赖森 (Ethan Bryson) 的人出版的。
So the title of the book is Addicted Healers.
所以这本书的标题是《上瘾的治疗者》。
And the subtitle is "5 Key Signs Your Healthcare Professional May Be Drug Impaired."
副标题是“您的医疗保健专业人员可能因药物受损的 5 个关键迹象”。
And right here on page xviii, it says, "Rates of illicit drug use by health care professionals within the past year ranged from 8% to 20%, depending on the type of personnel within the health care industry." And then, it says, "At any given time, roughly 3% to 5% of this population is using illicit drugs while they are caring for patients."
第 xviii 页上写着：“过去一年中，医疗保健专业人员的非法药物使用率在 8% 到 20% 之间，具体取决于医疗保健行业人员的类型。”然后，它说，“在任何特定时间，大约有 3% 到 5% 的人口在照顾病人时使用非法药物。”
3% to 5%, you mean of all health care professionals?
您是指所有医疗保健专业人员中的 3% 到 5%？
All across the profession.
各个职业都有。
Ira Glass Wow, which drugs?
Ira Glass 哇，哪种药物？
They all have their drug of choice.
他们都有自己选择的药物。
And we actually played this kind of word association game.
我们实际上也玩过这种单词联想游戏。
Physicians?
医生？
Dr. Ethan Bryson Pills, Oxycontin, oxycodone.
Ethan Bryson 博士药丸、奥施康定、羟考酮。
Nurses.
护士们。
Dr. Ethan Bryson Intravenous opioid-based drugs.
Ethan Bryson 博士静脉注射阿片类药物。
Psychiatrists.
精神科医生。
Dr. Ethan Bryson Benzodiazepines.
伊森·布赖森博士苯二氮卓类药物。
Anesthesiologists.
麻醉师。
Dr. Ethan Bryson Fentanyl.
伊森·布赖森博士芬太尼。
You said that so fast!
你说得这么快！
Dr. Ethan Bryson That is the biggest drug.
伊森·布赖森博士 这是最大的药物。
I should point out here that Dr. Bryson is himself an anesthesiologist.
我应该在这里指出，布赖森博士本人就是一名麻醉师。
Say it again, fentanyl?
你再说一遍，芬太尼？
Dr. Ethan Bryson Fentanyl.
伊森·布赖森博士芬太尼。
It's a highly potent derivative of morphine.
它是吗啡的高效衍生物。
It's actually like 80 times more potent than morphine and can significantly mess with your judgment.
它的效力实际上比吗啡强 80 倍，并且会严重干扰您的判断。
It's extremely addictive.
它非常容易上瘾。
And Dr. Bryson pointed out that most medical professionals don't have to take drug tests.
布赖森博士指出，大多数医疗专业人员不必接受药物测试。
Military personnel, on the other hand, do.
另一方面，军事人员则这样做。
Now, many of you reported last week on the investigation involving some of our airmen and illegal drug possession.
现在，你们中的许多人上周报道了涉及我们一些飞行员和非法持有毒品的调查。
This is the Secretary of the Air Force, Deborah Lee James, giving a press conference a few months ago.
这是空军部长黛博拉·李·詹姆斯几个月前举行的新闻发布会。
Basically, two lieutenants were busted for allegedly dealing amphetamines and ecstasy.
基本上，两名中尉因涉嫌贩卖安非他明和摇头丸而被捕。
And they were found out, because they were sending text messages to other airmen about drugs.
他们被发现是因为他们向其他飞行员发送有关毒品的短信。
Well, it turns out that three of the 10 who were implicated in this drug investigation were from our Air Force Global Strike Command, which is the command where our ICBM missile forces reside.
那么事实证明，这次毒品调查涉及的10人中，有3人来自我们空军全球打击司令部，这是我们洲际弹道导弹部队驻扎的司令部。
ICBM, that is-- Sean Cole The nuclear warheads.
洲际弹道导弹，即——肖恩·科尔 核弹头。
Well, that doesn't seem like somebody we want high.
嗯，这看起来不像是我们想要的高调人物。
Not someone we want high.
不是我们想要高的人。
Ira Glass Sean, are there surveys measuring how many of us are high all the time?
艾拉·格拉斯·肖恩（Ira Glass Sean），是否有调查衡量我们中有多少人一直处于兴奋状态？
I mean-- [SIGH] There's not a lot of data.
我的意思是——[叹息]没有太多数据。
There's workplace drug tests that show 3 and 1/2% of workers test positive for drugs.
工作场所药物测试显示 3% 又 1/2% 的工人药物测试呈阳性。
But obviously, that's only in workplaces that test for drugs in the first place.
但显然，这只是在首先进行药物测试的工作场所。
One of the experts on this data, who's wonderfully named, Dr. Barry Sample from Quest Diagnostics told me drug use is a couple percentage points higher in places that don't test for drugs.
Quest Diagnostics 的 Barry Sample 博士是研究该数据的专家之一，他的名字很出名，他告诉我，在不进行药物检测的地方，药物使用率要高出几个百分点。
So, the Department of Health and Human Services actually has numbers on that.
因此，卫生与公众服务部实际上有这方面的数据。
The latest ones that I found said-- so this is people who say, yes, I've done illicit drugs in the past month.
我发现的最新消息说——所以这些人说，是的，我在过去一个月里吸毒了。
People who work in real estate is about 7%.
从事房地产工作的人大约占7%。
Same for mining.
采矿也一样。
Mining?
矿业？
7%.
7%。
Sean Cole Mining.
肖恩·科尔矿业公司。
Retail is 9 and 1/2%.
零售为 9 又 1/2%。
Construction workers is about 14%.
建筑工人约为14%。
So that means roughly one in seven construction workers.
这意味着大约七分之一的建筑工人。
The highest is accommodation and food services.
最高的是住宿和餐饮服务。
That would include, dare I say, bartenders?
我敢说，这其中包括调酒师吗？
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
Yes.
是的。
Accommodation and food services, roughly one in six admit on the survey to using drugs.
调查中，大约六分之一的住宿和餐饮服务机构承认使用过毒品。
It could be higher than one of six actually do drugs.
它可能比实际吸毒的六分之一还要高。
Oh, it could be higher-- Ira Glass Right, one out of six--
哦，可能会更高——艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 对，六分之一——
--meaning one out of six admit on the survey--
——意思是六分之一的人在调查中承认——
--admit on the survey to drug use.
——在调查中承认吸毒。
Some more of them, actually, might be doing it.
事实上，他们中的一些人可能正在这样做。
Yeah, maybe.
是的，也许吧。
Ira Glass They should try the survey in Toronto.
Ira Glass 他们应该在多伦多尝试一下这项调查。
[LAUGHS] Ira Glass Well, today on our radio program, the secret world of getting high, which is, OK, maybe not such a well-kept secret.
[笑] Ira Glass 嗯，今天在我们的广播节目中，关于嗑药的秘密世界，好吧，也许不是一个保守得很好的秘密。
It is all around us all the time.
它无时无刻不在我们身边。
High people mingling with us, working, passing, laughing extra hard at our jokes.
高级人士与我们混在一起，工作，路过，对我们的笑话笑得很厉害。
We don't even know why.
我们甚至不知道为什么。
We have stories today of great drug experiences, and awful drug experiences, and funny drug experiences; tales of miscalculation, bad judgment, and dumb-assery.
今天我们有关于伟大的吸毒经历、可怕的吸毒经历和有趣的吸毒经历的故事；错误计算、错误判断和愚蠢言论的故事。
We have comedians Marc Maron and Wyatt Cenac.
我们有喜剧演员马克·马龙和怀亚特·塞纳克。
From WBEZ Chicago, It's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《这就是美国生活》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, High on the Corporate Ladder.
第一幕，登上企业阶梯的高位。
So there's this secret society, many million strong, people who are going through life high.
所以就有了这个秘密社团，有数百万人，他们的生活都在巅峰。
Maybe you are part of this society.
也许你就是这个社会的一部分。
If not, you're probably dealing regularly with people who are, cashiers, baristas, and stockbrokers, and cab drivers, maybe the cop writing that parking ticket.
如果没有，你可能经常与这样的人打交道：收银员、咖啡师、股票经纪人、出租车司机，也许是开停车罚单的警察。
Alex Blumberg has this story about just how hard it is to tell who is in that society and who isn't.
亚历克斯·布隆伯格（Alex Blumberg）有一个故事，讲述了区分谁属于那个社会、谁不属于这个社会是多么困难。
Richard, for many years, was a member of that society, the society of people who get high at work.
多年来，理查德一直是这个社会的成员，这个社会是由那些在工作中获得快乐的人组成的。
I would roll a thin joint and start smoking in the morning.
我会卷一根细烟，早上就开始抽烟。
I'd usually duck down at one of the back stairways and take a few more tokes during the day.
白天，我通常会躲在后面的一个楼梯上，再吸几口烟。
I'd smoke at lunch.
我午餐时会抽烟。
I'd smoke a little bit in the afternoon.
下午我会抽一点烟。
I would basically stay high all day long.
我基本上会整天保持兴奋状态。
I was chief operating [LAUGHS] officer of the second largest ad agency in town.
我是镇上第二大广告公司的首席运营官[笑]。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
[LAUGHS] How many people at your company knew that you were doing this?
[笑]你们公司有多少人知道你在这样做？
Um, somewhere between three and all of them.
嗯，介于三个和全部之间。
[LAUGHTER] Alex Blumberg Richard says that, at the time, he thought he was hiding his habit.
[笑声] 亚历克斯·布隆伯格·理查德说，当时他认为自己在隐藏自己的习惯。
But in retrospect, who knows?
但回想起来，谁知道呢？
One of the head executives toking up in the stairwell every day, how could he hide that?
一位高管每天都在楼梯间上班，他怎么能隐瞒呢？
On the other hand, there's this.
另一方面，还有这个。
I had no idea that this was going on.
我不知道这是怎么回事。
And I'm Richard's son.
我是理查德的儿子。
I only found out that my dad was getting high at work every day long after the fact, when I was in my 30s.
直到我三十多岁的时候，我才发现我爸爸每天都在工作中变得很兴奋。
And I found out because my dad got cancer.
我发现是因为我父亲得了癌症。
It was a horrible week.
这是可怕的一周。
It started with the discovery that the pain in my dad's back wasn't just a pinched nerve.
一切始于我发现我父亲背部的疼痛不仅仅是神经受压。
And it ended with a diagnosis of lymphoma, a particular form of lymphoma that we had learned that week to root for, because it's actually curable.
最后诊断为淋巴瘤，这是一种特殊形式的淋巴瘤，我们在那一周了解到要支持它，因为它实际上是可以治愈的。
That's the word they used.
这是他们用的词。
Back then, I didn't even know you could say that about cancer.
那时，我什至不知道你可以这样说癌症。
But that whole week, my dad was convinced he had a different diagnosis, lung cancer.
但整整一周，我父亲确信他有不同的诊断结果：肺癌。
Even towards the end, when the doctors were pretty convinced the news was good, he insisted on it, which didn't make any sense.
即使到了最后，当医生们非常确信这个消息是好消息时，他仍然坚持这样做，这没有任何意义。
My father had quit smoking cigarettes way back in the '80s.
我父亲早在八十年代就戒烟了。
When we pressed him about it, that's when he told us about the pot.
当我们向他追问此事时，他就告诉了我们关于锅的事情。
My dad's cancer and recovery was a pivotal time for our family.
我父亲的癌症和康复对我们家庭来说是一个关键时刻。
Painful secrets came out.
痛苦的秘密浮出水面。
Much was said that needed to be said.
需要说的已经说了很多了。
My dad got into a 12-step program.
我父亲参加了 12 步计划。
And he's been clean for almost 15 years.
而且他已经干净了近15年了。
But then, here at the radio show, someone suggested doing a show called "I was so high," and I realized something.
但后来，在广播节目中，有人建议做一个名为“我太嗨了”的节目，我意识到了一些事情。
I really wanted us to do that show.
我真的很想让我们做那个节目。
I had a lot of questions for people who got high all day, questions about what they thought of themselves, what they thought of their families, what they were getting out of being high.
我对那些整天嗑药的人提出了很多问题，比如他们对自己的看法，对家人的看法，以及他们从嗑药中得到了什么。
I realized, in other words, I had a lot of questions for my dad.
换句话说，我意识到我有很多问题要问父亲。
When did you use marijuana for the first time?
您第一次吸食大麻是什么时候？
Uh, I don't know.
呃，我不知道。
You were about a year and a half old.
当时你大约一岁半。
First, of course, I wanted the details.
首先，当然，我想要细节。
When did it start?
什么时候开始的？
When did it get serious?
什么时候严重了？
And for my dad, it started in the '60s.
对于我父亲来说，这一切始于 20 世纪 60 年代。
A friend rolled a joint at a party.
一位朋友在聚会上抽了一根大麻烟。
It was fun.
很有趣。
It became something he did socially, getting high with friends, listening to Jefferson Airplane on the brand new FM station in town.
这成了他的社交活动，与朋友一起狂欢，听镇上全新的调频电台播放的杰斐逊飞机节目。
And this part I knew.
这部分我知道。
I remember joints passed around when my parents' friends came over, rolling papers on the end table next to the couch.
我记得当我父母的朋友过来时，他们在沙发旁边的茶几上卷着纸，互相传递着关节。
One afternoon, I answered the door and found a friend of my dad's, turtleneck, sunglasses, what I remember as a Burt Reynolds mustache.
一天下午，我去开门，发现我爸爸的一位朋友穿着高领毛衣，戴着墨镜，我记得那是伯特·雷诺兹的小胡子。
He handed me a dime-bag and said, this is for your father.
他递给我一个一毛钱的袋子，说，这是给你父亲的。
My dad doesn't remember the first time he smoked weed at work.
我爸爸不记得他第一次在工作时吸大麻是什么时候了。
But it was probably around the time I was leaving middle school and entering high school.
但那可能是在我离开初中进入高中的时候。
By the time I left for college, it had gone far beyond a thing he did at nights with friends to a thing he did routinely, during the day, while he'd walk the several blocks to a meeting with one of his firm's largest clients.
当我去上大学时，这已经远远超出了他晚上与朋友一起做的事情，而是他白天例行公事地做的事情，而他会步行几个街区去与他公司最大的客户之一会面。
I knew where every alleyway between our office on Seventh Street and Procter, on the other corner of downtown.
我知道我们位于第七街的办公室和市中心另一个角落的普罗克特之间的每条小巷在哪里。
And you're talking about a meeting with Procter & Gamble--
你正在谈论与宝洁公司的会面——
Yeah.
是的。
Alex Blumberg --one of the largest companies in the world.
Alex Blumberg——世界上最大的公司之一。
That was one of clients.
那是一位客户。
If there's any company less associated with habitual work-time pot use, it has to Procter & Gamble.
如果说有哪家公司与工作时间使用大麻的习惯不太相关，那一定是宝洁公司。
Right.
正确的。
Alex Blumberg So, when you were making these presentations, you don't think that they knew that you were high at the time?
Alex Blumberg 那么，当你做这些演讲时，你不认为他们知道你当时很兴奋吗？
That you'd stopped in at an alley on the way over and smoked a joint?
你在来的路上停在一条小巷里抽了根烟？
No. I was putting something over on the straight world.
不，我是在异性恋世界中添加了一些东西。
Like, I'm not really part of your world.
就像，我并不是你世界的一部分。
I'm just visiting here for a little bit.
我只是来这里短暂停留。
I think that was something that was very, very much a part of being stoned.
我认为这就是被石头砸死的一部分。
Here I was, this guy in a business suit, tucking down a back alley and smoking a joint.
我就在这里，这个穿着西装的家伙，在后巷里抽着大麻。
Another question I had for my dad, were there people for whom his drug use was not a secret?
我向我父亲提出的另一个问题是，对于有些人来说，他的吸毒行为不是秘密吗？
Other members of the Society of Secret Pot Smokers that he'd duck into that alley with?
他会和他一起躲进那条巷子的秘密大麻吸烟者协会的其他成员吗？
Was he regularly sharing joints with-- I don't know-- the Kinko's guy while they both waited on a large print order?
他是否经常在等待大笔印刷订单时与——我不知道——Kinko's 的伙计共享关节？
I could see a camaraderie developing between secret pot smokers, just like cigarette smokers at an office will go out and take smoke breaks together.
我可以看到秘密吸食大麻的人之间产生了一种友情，就像办公室里的吸烟者会一起出去抽烟休息一样。
But my dad says that, for him at least, it wasn't like that.
但我父亲说，至少对他来说，情况并非如此。
Sure, he knew of other people at the agency who smoked pot.
当然，他知道该机构还有其他人吸食大麻。
And yes, if you must know, they were mostly in the art department.
是的，如果你一定要知道的话，他们大多在艺术部门。
But he mainly kept to himself.
但他主要还是独来独往。
You increasing live in a secret world that you can't reveal to the people who don't share that world.
你越来越生活在一个秘密的世界里，你不能向那些不分享这个世界的人透露这个世界。
And there are an increasingly limited number of people who share the world-- the more you use, the deeper you get into it, to the point where you're all alone in it.
而共享这个世界的人越来越少——你使用的越多，你就陷得越深，直到你孤身一人。
And you have to keep it a secret from everybody else.
而且你必须对其他人保守秘密。
And you do really stupid things to keep it a secret, really stupid.
为了保守秘密，你做了非常愚蠢的事情，非常愚蠢。
What are you thinking of when you said "really stupid"?
当你说“真蠢”的时候你在想什么？
Well, I remember one time, I went down, I'd stopped in Eton Park on the way back to the office.
嗯，我记得有一次，我下楼，在回办公室的路上在伊顿公学停了下来。
And I got out of the car.
我下了车。
And I got stoned.
我被石头砸死了。
I smoked a joint.
我抽了一根烟。
And I came back, and I realized that I'd locked my keys in the car.
当我回来时，我意识到我把钥匙锁在车里了。
And I couldn't-- you know, I was stoned.
但我不能——你知道，我被迷住了。
My judgment was shot.
我的判断被击中了。
I didn't know what to do.
我不知道该怎么办。
So I went around.
于是我就四处走走。
And I found a big rock.
我发现了一块大石头。
And I broke the little window in the rear.
我打破了后面的小窗户。
And I reached in and unlocked the door.
我伸手进去打开门。
And then, the back of the seat was full of glass.
然后，座位后面全是玻璃。
And I had to go down to Ace Auto Glass and had the glass replaced.
我不得不去 Ace Auto Glass 更换玻璃。
And then, finally, I got to the office an hour and a half late for the meeting.
最后，我到办公室开会晚了一个半小时。
And I made up some excuse.
我还编了一些借口。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
This image of my dad in his suit, early morning, rooting around in the underbrush for a rock to throw through his own car window, I found it so shocking.
这张照片是我父亲一大早穿着西装，在灌木丛中翻找一块石头，想把石头扔进他自己的车窗，我觉得这太令人震惊了。
It is one solution to the problem at hand.
这是解决当前问题的一种方法。
But it's hard to imagine a person who wasn't high, weighing all the options and deciding, you know the think I need to do right now at 8:00 AM on a work day?
但很难想象一个不兴奋的人会权衡所有选项并决定，你知道我现在在工作日上午 8:00 需要做什么吗？
Smash in my own car window.
砸碎我自己的车窗。
And I know, as rock bottom stories go, this is nothing special.
我知道，随着底层故事的发展，这没什么特别的。
In general, my dad's addiction story barely registers on the family dysfunction scale.
总的来说，我父亲的毒瘾故事几乎没有在家庭功能失调的规模上得到体现。
But his marijuana use was starting to fray the edges of his life.
但他吸食大麻开始侵蚀他生活的边缘。
He and his business partner, Dale, were having regular fights over my dad's inability to show up to meetings on time, or fill out his time sheets, or just get things done when he said he would.
他和他的商业伙伴戴尔经常因为我父亲无法按时出席会议、填写时间表或按时完成任务而发生争执。
At a certain point, my dad sold his stake in the business for a nice chunk of money.
在某个时候，我父亲卖掉了他在公司的股份，赚了一大笔钱。
But then, he lost most of it on a string of failed business ventures.
但后来，他因一系列失败的商业冒险而失去了大部分财产。
I remember my dad trying to explain a couple of them to me at the time.
我记得当时我父亲试图向我解释其中的一些。
I was just out of college at this point.
此时我刚刚大学毕业。
And I never really understood what the products actually were or how they were going to make any money.
我从来没有真正理解这些产品到底是什么或者它们将如何赚钱。
Only in retrospect did I realize, after the cancer and the secret came out, those business ideas, they made a lot more sense if you were stoned.
只有回想起来，我才意识到，在癌症和秘密曝光之后，如果你喝醉了，那些商业想法就会变得更有意义。
All told, in today's dollars, my dad probably lost somewhere north of half a million.
总而言之，以今天的美元计算，我父亲的损失可能超过五十万。
And this brings me to the most basic question I had for my dad, the question that lay underneath all the other ones.
这让我想到了我向父亲提出的最基本的问题，这个问题是所有其他问题的基础。
Why do you think you were getting high every day at work?
为什么你认为你每天工作时都会兴奋？
Uh, I think that I was getting high because I didn't really feel that marketing was a worthwhile thing to do.
呃，我觉得我很兴奋，因为我真的觉得营销不是一件值得做的事情。
This is part of it for sure.
这肯定是其中的一部分。
Getting high allowed my dad to retreat from this reality that he didn't want to face, that he wasn't a hippie anymore but, in fact, a guy in a suit with a job in advertising.
吸毒让我父亲摆脱了他不想面对的现实，他不再是嬉皮士，而是一个穿着西装、从事广告工作的人。
But that answer, it didn't feel like the full truth to me.
但这个答案对我来说并不完全是事实。
Because he wasn't just running from reality at work.
因为他不仅仅是在工作中逃避现实。
He was running from it at home as well.
他在家里也在逃避它。
The one time in particular I remember was we were on vacation out in California.
我特别记得的一次是我们在加利福尼亚州度假。
It was one of the times we went to California.
这是我们去加利福尼亚的一次。
We did a big road trip across the country.
我们进行了一次穿越全国的长途公路旅行。
It was sort of crazy.
这有点疯狂。
And we'd found some unbelievably beautiful little swimming hole in northern California.
我们在北加州发现了一些令人难以置信的美丽小游泳洞。
And we'd set up a tent.
我们还搭了一个帐篷。
And the weather was perfect.
天气非常好。
And we were all getting out.
我们都出去了。
We'd put on our swimsuits.
我们穿上泳衣。
And we were all getting ready to get in.
我们都准备进去了。
And we'd just been visiting your friends Gene and Jan in San Francisco.
我们刚刚去旧金山拜访了你的朋友吉恩和简。
And they'd given you some--
他们给了你一些——
[LAUGHS] Alex Blumberg They'd given you some Berkeley gold, as they called it.
[笑] Alex Blumberg 他们给了你一些伯克利金奖，正如他们所说的那样。
Yeah.
是的。
Alex Blumberg And I remember you rolling a joint and saying something like, but first, it's time for little Berkeley gold, or something like that.
亚历克斯·布隆伯格（Alex Blumberg） 我记得你卷了一根大麻烟，说了类似的话，但首先，是时候获得伯克利金币了，或者类似的话。
And I remember being really upset.
我记得我真的很沮丧。
And part of, I think, the reason that I was so upset is I remember thinking, what in the world?
我想，我如此心烦意乱的部分原因是我记得当时在想，到底是怎么回事？
What more could you want?
你还想要什么？
And there's sort of a feeling of, are we not enough?
有一种感觉，我们还不够吗？
It seemed like, almost even at that time in your life, you were almost sort of running from something even in that moment or wanting to change the reality a little bit in that moment.
似乎，几乎在你生命中的那个时候，你几乎在那一刻就在逃避某些事情，或者在那一刻想要稍微改变现实。
Is it--
难道是——
I think I probably was.
我想我可能是。
Alex Blumberg What were you--?
亚历克斯·布隆伯格 你是什么——？
What didn't you have?
你没有什么？
I don't know what it was.
我不知道那是什么。
I had a perfect life.
我过着完美的生活。
I guess that's where I feel like I go back to it was feeling.
我想这就是我感觉回到过去的感觉。
Like, I find when I've used pot, the thing that it takes away is it takes away feeling.
就像，我发现当我使用大麻时，它带走的就是它带走的感觉。
Yep.
是的。
Alex Blumberg Feelings become less intense.
亚历克斯·布隆伯格 情绪变得不那么强烈了。
And I feel like, for whatever reason, the feelings of oh my god, this is so perfect.
不管出于什么原因，我觉得天哪，这太完美了。
I love my family so much.
我非常爱我的家人。
Or, oh my god, this should be so perfect, but I'm pissed off at my wife.
或者，天哪，这本该如此完美，但我对我的妻子很生气。
Or, I'm let down by my children, or whatever it is that you were feeling.
或者，我对我的孩子们感到失望，或者无论你有什么感受。
I sort of feel like that's the thing that links all of the pot use.
我觉得这就是所有锅的使用联系在一起的东西。
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
Or is that just my theory?
或者这只是我的理论？
Yeah, I think it's true.
是的，我认为这是真的。
It's part of what you're running away from.
这是你正在逃避的事情的一部分。
The most important thing is that you're running away from something.
最重要的是你正在逃避某些事情。
You're running away from looking at the world as it really is.
你正在逃避看世界的本来面目。
You push all of that direct experience of reality away.
你把所有对现实的直接体验都推开了。
It's not a good way to live.
这不是一个好的生活方式。
It's just not a good way to live.
这不是一个好的生活方式。
Oddly, for my dad, it wasn't just the happy moments he regretted checking out for, but the sad ones as well.
奇怪的是，对于我父亲来说，他后悔的不仅仅是那些快乐的时刻，还有悲伤的时刻。
For example, when his mother died of cancer.
例如，当他的母亲死于癌症时。
My aunt had been telling my dad that their mother's condition was getting worse, worse than their mother was letting on.
我姨妈一直告诉我爸爸，他们母亲的病情越来越严重，比他们母亲表现出来的还要糟糕。
If my dad hadn't been high, he says, he wouldn't have ignored what my aunt was telling him.
他说，如果我爸爸没有吸毒，他就不会忽视我姨妈告诉他的话。
He would have spent more time with his mother, engaged more with her doctors.
他会花更多的时间陪伴母亲，更多地与她的医生接触。
I probably would have been in Cleveland with her when she had the operation that ended in her death.
当她接受导致她死亡的手术时，我可能会和她一起在克利夫兰。
Oh, I didn't know that she died during operation.
哦，我不知道她在手术中去世了。
Yes.
是的。
She had bone cancer.
她患有骨癌。
And they were trying to break a connection to the pituitary gland or something like that that would reduce the pain.
他们试图断开与脑下垂体或类似的东西的连接，以减轻疼痛。
And she wound up hemorrhaging and died.
她最终因失血过多而死。
Mm.
毫米。
And you thought about going with her when she did that and you decided not to?
当她这样做时，你想过和她一起走，但你决定不这样做？
If it were to happen today, there's no question that I would have driven her up to Cleveland.
如果发生在今天，毫无疑问我会开车送她去克利夫兰。
That would've been the most natural thing in the world to do.
这将是世界上最自然的事情。
Instead, he says, he got high, pushed the feelings aside, and avoided the whole thing, which makes this last story I'll tell all the more amazing.
相反，他说，他变得兴奋起来，把感情抛在一边，避免了整件事，这使得我要讲的最后一个故事更加令人惊奇。
Just last month, my 80-year-old Uncle Paul, my mom's brother, fell ill suddenly and ended up in the hospital, near death, with a breathing tube down his throat.
就在上个月，我80岁的叔叔保罗，我妈妈的兄弟，突然病倒了，最后住进了医院，喉咙里插着一根呼吸管，濒临死亡。
My parents got the call and were on a plane down to Florida where he lived the very next day.
我的父母接到电话，第二天就乘飞机飞往他住的佛罗里达州。
My uncle was a recluse.
我的叔叔是一位隐士。
Except for occasional phone calls to his brothers and sisters, he interacted with almost no one.
除了偶尔给兄弟姐妹打个电话外，他几乎不与任何人交流。
It was my parents and a neighbor that Paul barely knew confronting the sad end to his lonely life, Medicaid applications, power of attorney, hospice, finally, cremation.
是我的父母和保罗几乎不认识的邻居面对他孤独生活的悲惨结局，医疗补助申请，授权书，临终关怀，最后火葬。
And while my parents were down there going about all that, my dad did something that was, on the one hand, utterly ordinary, but that I found remarkable.
当我的父母在那里做这一切时，我父亲做了一些事情，一方面，这是非常普通的，但我发现了非凡的。
He emailed us with regular, almost daily, updates, giving the details on Paul's changing condition, going through next steps.
他定期（几乎每天）给我们发电子邮件，提供最新情况，详细介绍保罗病情变化的情况，并进行后续步骤。
The emails were direct and honest, filled with love for Paul and sadness about his decline.
这些电子邮件直接而诚实，充满了对保罗的爱和对他衰落的悲伤。
And I would sit there and read them.
我会坐在那里阅读它们。
And they felt miraculous.
他们感觉很神奇。
A daily email on a tough, hard-to-face topic from my dad, something he never could have done organizationally or emotionally when he was high.
我父亲每天都会发一封电子邮件，讨论一个棘手的、难以面对的话题，这是他在兴奋的时候在组织上和情感上永远不可能做到的事情。
Like I said, as these stories go, ours wasn't that bad.
就像我说的，随着这些故事的发展，我们的故事并没有那么糟糕。
My dad was a good dad.
我的爸爸是一个好爸爸。
He read to us every night, took us on long hikes in search of snakes and salamanders to keep as pets.
他每天晚上都给我们读书，带我们长途跋涉寻找蛇和蝾螈作为宠物。
But his drug use did leave at least one lasting effect on me.
但他的吸毒确实给我留下了至少一种持久的影响。
I can't hear any story about a seemingly functional pot-head with anything but a skeptical ear.
我听不到任何关于一个看似功能正常、但耳朵却充满怀疑的疯子的故事。
From magazine features about rappers who are constantly high but still put out platinum records to casual asides about this friend I know who smokes weed all day but is a great husband and father, some part of me just can't buy it, can't help but think, there's more to that story.
从杂志上关于说唱歌手的专题报道，他们一直很嗨，但仍然发行白金唱片，到关于这个朋友的休闲旁白，我知道他整天吸大麻，但他是一个伟大的丈夫和父亲，我的某些部分就是不能相信它，情不自禁地想，这个故事还有更多。
There's always something being run from.
总有一些东西在逃避。
And there's always at least one person wondering, is that something me?
总是至少有人想知道，这是我的事吗？
Alex Blumberg is one of the producers of our show.
亚历克斯·布隆伯格是我们节目的制片人之一。
Coming up, Marc Maron, Wyatt Cenac and what do you say to Drew Carey when you are a contestant on The Price is Right and you're also high on mushrooms?
接下来，马克·马龙 (Marc Maron)、怀亚特·塞纳克 (Wyatt Cenac) 以及德鲁·凯里 (Drew Carey) 当你是 The Price is Right 的参赛者并且你也对蘑菇很感兴趣时，你会对德鲁·凯里 (Drew Carey) 说些什么？
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.
一分钟后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life from Ira Glass.
这就是艾拉·格拉斯的《美国生活》。
Each weekend our program, of course.
当然，每个周末都有我们的节目。
We choose a theme, bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
我们选择一个主题，为您带来该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's program, "I Was So High," stories about doing drugs, the people who do lots of drugs, and the rest of us who maybe do not do as many drugs.
今天的节目“我太嗨了”讲述了关于吸毒、吸毒很多的人以及我们其他可能吸毒不多的人的故事。
We have arrived at Act Two of our program-- Act Two, You Were So High.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕——第二幕，你太嗨了。
So there are people who are not getting high every single day and organizing their whole lives around drugs.
所以有些人并不是每天都在吸毒，他们的整个生活都围绕着毒品。
There are people in this world who get high, and have fun, and giggle with their friends.
这个世界上有些人会嗨起来，享受乐趣，并与朋友一起咯咯地笑。
Among other things, drugs can be enjoyable.
除其他外，毒品可以令人愉快。
And we asked you to send in your drug stories on our blog and Facebook and Twitter.
我们要求您在我们的博客、Facebook 和 Twitter 上发送您的毒品故事。
You sent in 2,600.
您寄了 2,600 个。
Elna Baker was one of three staffers here at This American Life who went through those emails.
埃尔娜·贝克 (Elna Baker) 是《This American Life》中查看这些电子邮件的三名员工之一。
And she joins me in the studio now.
她现在和我一起来到工作室。
Elna, what were most of those emails like?
艾尔娜，大多数电子邮件是什么样的？
I would say about half of them are people just doing really dumb stuff while they're high, like this.
我想说，其中大约一半的人只是在兴奋的时候做了一些非常愚蠢的事情，就像这样。
I called my friend Shane.
我打电话给我的朋友谢恩。
And when I got him, I was like, well, I think I might have done some mushrooms.
当我得到他时，我想，好吧，我想我可能做了一些蘑菇。
He's like, where are you?
他就像，你在哪里？
I was like, I'm at the intersections of One Way and Do Not Enter.
我当时想，我正处于“单向”和“请勿进入”的十字路口。
He's like, look at other signs.
他就像，看看其他标志。
I thought I picked up the bud.
我以为我捡到了花蕾。
And instead, I picked up goose poop and took a nice big hit of it.
相反，我捡起了鹅粪，狠狠地吃了一顿。
I would stop and write little poems.
我会停下来写一些小诗。
One just said, what if you were a cat and all you could say was meow?
有人说，如果你是一只猫，你只能说“喵”怎么办？
All you would have to talk about is meow.
你所要谈论的就是喵。
So one of the reasons why we asked listeners for their drug stories is because we thought we'd get a lot of funny stories.
因此，我们向听众询问他们的毒品故事的原因之一是因为我们认为我们会得到很多有趣的故事。
Were they funny?
他们有趣吗？
They were OK.
他们都还好。
They weren't that funny.
他们没那么有趣。
And I feel mean saying that because so many people actually put the effort to write us stories in.
我这么说感觉很刻薄，因为很多人实际上都在努力为我们写故事。
And we read 2,600 of these emails.
我们阅读了其中 2,600 封电子邮件。
But they don't stand up unless you either know the person or were there, or if you were on drugs at the time, it was funny to you.
但他们不会站起来，除非你认识这个人或在场，或者如果你当时吸毒，这对你来说很有趣。
Yep.
是的。
Ira Glass So it's like 2,600 emails, but they're not so funny.
Ira Glass：大概有 2,600 封电子邮件，但它们并不那么有趣。
Mm-mm.
嗯嗯。
There was a few or one liners that I remember, inside jokes.
我记得有几句或一句台词，是内部笑话。
Like?
喜欢？
Elna Baker I'm loving that bunny.
埃尔娜·贝克（Elna Baker）我很喜欢那只兔子。
That was somebody--
那是一个人——
Exactly, people had their drug catch phrases that I kind of liked, that I want to use now.
确切地说，人们有我喜欢的毒品流行语，我现在想使用它们。
[LAUGHS] OK.
[笑]好的。
Elna Baker But one was some little boy was on anesthesia.
埃尔娜·贝克（Elna Baker）但其中一个是某个小男孩正在接受麻醉。
And he had this horrible surgery.
他做了这个可怕的手术。
And his parents were very worried.
而他的父母也非常担心。
And they looked up at the TV screen.
他们抬头看着电视屏幕。
And there was Animal Planet.
还有动物星球。
And he just looked up and was like, I'm loving that bunny.
他只是抬起头说，我喜欢那只兔子。
Any surprises?
有什么惊喜吗？
Elna Baker Yes.
埃尔娜·贝克 是的。
A lot of people, especially teenagers, will hit on their anesthesiologists while they're under the influence.
很多人，尤其是青少年，会在喝醉的时候向麻醉师求助。
So that's like a thing you know if you're an anesthesiologist?
如果您是麻醉师，这就像您知道的事情吗？
And if you're hot, yeah.
如果你很热，是的。
And then, oh, several people doing shrooms had a vision of a Native American guide appearing to them on the path in the distance--
然后，哦，几个正在做蘑菇的人看到了一位美洲原住民向导出现在远处小路上的景象——
Oh my god.
天哪。
Elna Baker --and just gesturing for them to follow, which just seemed racist, right?
埃尔娜·贝克（Elna Baker）——只是示意他们跟随，这似乎是种族主义，对吧？
It's like a message from your unconscious.
这就像来自你无意识的信息。
Hi, I've been meaning to tell you, by the way, you're a racist.
嗨，顺便说一句，我一直想告诉你，你是一个种族主义者。
[LAUGHS] Ira Glass OK, good.
[笑] Ira Glass 好的，很好。
Now you know it.
现在你知道了。
But you did get one email that turns out to be a really funny story.
但你确实收到了一封电子邮件，结果证明这是一个非常有趣的故事。
Who is this?
这是谁？
Josh Androsky.
乔什·安德罗斯基。
So Josh, one day, goes out with his friends.
有一天，乔什和他的朋友们出去了。
They're drinking.
他们正在喝酒。
They end up doing mushrooms.
他们最终做了蘑菇。
And then they go to be part of the studio audience of The Price is Right.
然后他们就成为《价格合适》演播室观众的一部分。
Already without mushrooms it would have been crazy.
如果没有蘑菇那就太疯狂了。
[CHEERING CROWD] George Gray Here it comes!
[欢呼的人群] 乔治·格雷 它来了！
Because, literally, old people are dancing with children in the aisles.
因为，从字面上看，老人正在和孩子们在过道里跳舞。
This one old lady starts booty dancing on Drew Carey.
这位老太太开始在德鲁·凯里身上跳舞。
There were just dollar signs and flashing lights.
只有美元符号和闪烁的灯光。
I mean, everybody's going crazy.
我的意思是，每个人都疯了。
We were, demonstrably, the least high-looking people there.
显然，我们是那里最不高调的人。
Now it is the most exciting hour of fantastic prizes, the fabulous 60-minute Price is Right!
现在是最激动人心的大奖时刻，60分钟的超值价格正合适！
[CHEERING CROWD] Josh Androsky It was so, just, awe-inspiring, seeing all the colored lights that I didn't actually hear, "Come on down."
[欢呼的人群]乔什·安德罗斯基（Josh Androsky）看到所有我实际上没有听到的彩色灯光，真是非常、公正、令人敬畏，“下来吧。”
All of a sudden, I looked on the stage.
突然，我看向台上。
And there was this PA who was holding up a sign with my full name on it, which was really, really scary.
有个 PA 举着一个写着我全名的牌子，这真的非常非常可怕。
Because, in my head, it wasn't like, "Joshua Androsky, come on down."
因为，在我的脑海里，这并不是“约书亚·安德罗斯基，下来吧。”
In my head, that sign was, "Joshua Androsky, we know that you're here." There was that light bulb that went off in my brain that was like, oh my god.
在我脑海中，那个标志是：“约书亚·安德罗斯基，我们知道你在这里。”我脑子里突然亮起了一个灯泡，我的天哪。
I'm going to play The Price is Right now.
我现在要玩《价格就是现在》。
[CHEERING CROWD] Drew Carey Let's get the show started with the first prize up for bid today on The Price is Right.
[欢呼的人群] Drew Carey 让我们开始吧，今天在 The Price is Right 上竞标一等奖。
Excellent idea, Drew.
好主意，德鲁。
We're going to start off with a new home theater system!
我们将从新的家庭影院系统开始！
I was the first person to bid on the first prize on contestants' row.
我是参赛者排中第一个竞标一等奖的人。
It goes to whoever bids closest to the actual retail price without going over.
谁的出价最接近实际零售价，谁的出价就不会超过实际零售价。
Big papa, we're going to start with you.
大爸爸，我们就从你开始吧。
And I'm an idiot.
我是个白痴。
And I bid $1 every time.
我每次出价1美元。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
$1!
1 美元！
All right, big papa bids $1.
好吧，大爸爸出价 1 美元。
Big papa hat, Dolly Parton shirt, bid $1.
大爸爸帽，多莉·帕顿衬衫，出价 1 美元。
[LAUGHTER] Josh Androsky I'm a mystery, dude.
[笑声] 乔什·安德罗斯基 我是个谜，伙计。
That's-- Josh Androsky That's an enigma.
那是——乔什·安德罗斯基（Josh Androsky） 这是一个谜。
Get used to it.
习惯它。
[LAUGHS] Josh Androsky Miraculously, one of the $1 bids worked.
[笑] Josh Androsky 奇迹般的是，其中一个 1 美元的出价成功了。
And I got up.
我站了起来。
And then, Drew Carey was like, hey!
然后，德鲁·凯里说，嘿！
OK, cool.
好吧，酷。
What do you do?
你做什么工作？
But that's when all the mushrooms hit me at once.
但就在那时，所有的蘑菇同时袭击了我。
And I just looked at him and I said, I'm a skateboard rabbi.
我只是看着他，然后说，我是一名滑板拉比。
[LAUGHTER] Drew Carey A skateboard rabbi.
[笑声] Drew Carey 滑板拉比。
Uh--
呃——
Drew Carey turns to me and goes, how do you incorporate skateboards into Judaism?
德鲁·凯里转向我问道，你如何将滑板融入犹太教？
I was like, well, Drew Carey, we go to local high schools and attempt to turn religious extremism into religious "X-tremism!"
我当时想，好吧，德鲁·凯里，我们去当地的高中，试图将宗教极端主义变成宗教“X极端主义！”
Unfortunately, they cut it out of the show.
不幸的是，他们把它从节目中删除了。
I get it.
我得到它。
[LAUGHS] I did!
[笑]我做到了！
But if you watch the video, the studio audience is going crazy.
但如果你看视频，演播室的观众就会发疯。
And Drew Carey looks right at the camera and goes--
德鲁·凯里（Drew Carey）直视镜头然后说道——
Josh Androsky, he went home from The Price is Right with a diamond ring.
乔什·安德罗斯基 (Josh Androsky) 带着一枚钻戒从 The Price is Right 回家。
Act Three, Bottom of the Eighth.
第三幕，第八幕底部。
We now turn to this story from Wyatt Cenac, recorded live on stage at Seth Herzog's SWEET at the Slipper Room in New York City.
现在我们来看看 Wyatt Cenac 的故事，该故事是在纽约市 Slipper Room 举办的 Seth Herzog 的 SWEET 舞台上现场录制的。
A lot of people, they assume I smoke a lot of pot--
很多人认为我抽了很多大麻——
[LAUGHTER] --because I talk kind of slow and I look like in high school jazz teacher.
[笑声]——因为我说话有点慢，而且我看起来就像高中的爵士乐老师。
[LAUGHTER] I don't really smoke weed.
[笑声]我真的不吸大麻。
I don't smoke it that much, because I don't get high smoking weed.
我抽得不多，因为我吸大麻的瘾不大。
It doesn't affect me.
这对我没有影响。
It doesn't affect me.
这对我没有影响。
I've only once gotten high from pot.
我只喝过一次大麻。
And that was one time I ate a pot brownie.
那是有一次我吃了一锅布朗尼。
Ooh.
哦。
Wyatt Cenac Yeah, that's right.
怀亚特·塞纳克：是的，没错。
That's the right response.
这是正确的回应。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
[LAUGHTER] I ate a pot brownie.
[笑声]我吃了一锅布朗尼。
I was about eight years ago.
我大约是八年前。
I was living in California at the time.
当时我住在加利福尼亚州。
And it was Memorial Day weekend.
那是阵亡将士纪念日周末。
And I was with three of my friends.
我和我的三个朋友在一起。
And we decided to go to a Dodgers game.
我们决定去看道奇队的比赛。
And so, it was me, my friend Ben, my friend Steve, and Steve's brother, Sweet Dave.
所以，是我、我的朋友本、我的朋友史蒂夫和史蒂夫的兄弟斯威特戴夫。
[LAUGHTER] You could try to call him Dave if you want to.
[笑声] 如果你愿意的话，你可以试着叫他戴夫。
But he won't answer to anything but Sweet Dave.
但除了甜蜜的戴夫之外，他不会回答任何事情。
Like, if a tiger was about to attack and you were like, Dave, look out!
就像，如果一只老虎即将攻击，而你会说，戴夫，小心！
Sweet Dave would die.
可爱的戴夫会死的。
[LAUGHTER] And so it's the four of us.
[笑声] 所以就我们四个人了。
We're in the parking lot at Dodger Stadium.
我们在道奇体育场的停车场。
We're tailgating.
我们正在追尾。
And one of my friends is like, hey, I got some pot brownies.
我的一个朋友说，嘿，我买了一些布朗尼蛋糕。
And I'm going to let you guess which friend of mine said that.
我会让你猜猜我的哪个朋友说过这句话。
Sweet Dave?
亲爱的戴夫？
Wyatt Cenac Wrong.
怀亚特·塞纳克错了。
It was Ben.
是本。
[LAUGHTER] But Sweet Dave was like, sweet!
[笑声]但是甜蜜戴夫就像，甜蜜！
[LAUGHTER] And so, Ben had four pieces of pot brownies for the four of us.
[笑声] 所以，本为我们四个人准备了四块布朗尼蛋糕。
And it seems like, oh yeah, four and four.
看起来，哦，是的，四四。
Here's a little twist.
这里有一个小转折。
At this point in my life, at 30 years old, I had never had pot before.
在我人生的这个阶段，我已经 30 岁了，以前从未吸过大麻。
And also at that point in my life, I had no job.
而且在我生命的那个阶段，我没有工作。
I was living off my credit cards, which my credit cards didn't really appreciate.
我靠信用卡生活，但我的信用卡并不真正增值。
[LAUGHTER] I was about to get evicted.
[笑声]我快要被驱逐了。
And I was five months behind on my car note.
我的汽车票据晚了五个月。
And so I looked at my friends.
于是我看着我的朋友们。
And I was like, eh, I don't really have anything to live for.
我当时想，呃，我真的没有什么可以活下去的。
Let's go.
我们走吧。
And I ate the brownie.
我吃了布朗尼。
And then, we went into the game.
然后，我们就进入了游戏。
And we sat down.
我们坐下来。
And we're all sitting in Dodger Stadium.
我们都坐在道奇体育场。
And I can see that it's starting to hit my friends.
我可以看到它开始影响我的朋友们。
Like, they're all starting to look around and get a little giggly.
就像，他们都开始环顾四周并咯咯地笑。
And it's hitting them.
这正在打击他们。
And my friend Ben looks at me.
我的朋友本看着我。
And he's like, you feel it yet?
他说，你感觉到了吗？
And I was like, nah.
我当时想，不。
But I do got to take a piss.
但我确实得小便一下。
So I get up and I go to the bathroom.
于是我起身去洗手间。
And I come back.
我回来了。
And Steve is in it hard.
史蒂夫也很努力。
I can see.
我可以看到。
He's just sitting straight up.
他只是坐直了。
And his arms are crossed.
他双臂交叉。
And he's just watching the field, not the game, the field.
而且他只是在看球场，而不是比赛、球场。
[LAUGHTER] And Ben looks at me.
[笑声] 本看着我。
He's like, you feel it yet?
他说，你感觉到了吗？
And I was like, nah.
我当时想，不。
But I really got to take a piss.
但我真的要撒尿。
[LAUGHTER] And I did that eight more times.
[笑声] 我又这样做了八次。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
[LAUGHTER] And my phone rang.
[笑声] 然后我的电话响了。
I answered the phone.
我接了电话。
But no words would come out.
但什么话也说不出来。
I couldn't say anything.
我什么也说不出来。
And I could hear my friend Laura on the other end.
我可以听到电话那头的朋友劳拉的声音。
And she's saying hello.
她在打招呼。
Then, I'm trying so hard.
然后我就很努力了
I'm just like, say something.
我只是想，说点什么。
Just talk.
只是说话。
Talk damn it!
说他妈的！
And finally, I am like, (UNUSUAL ACCENT) I am so [BLEEP] high.
最后，我想，（不寻常的口音）我太[BLEEP]高了。
This is terrible.
这太可怕了。
[LAUGHTER] And I did it in that voice.
[笑声]我用那种声音做到了。
And I have never done that voice before in my life.
我这辈子从来没有发出过这样的声音。
I don't know where that voice came from.
我不知道那个声音是从哪里来的。
But I heard myself use that voice.
但我听到自己用那个声音。
And in my mind, I went, oh [BLEEP].
在我的脑海里，我去了，哦[BLEEP]。
I just gave myself Down Syndrome.
我刚刚患上了唐氏综合症。
[LAUGHTER] (NORMAL VOICE) Now let me just say, I know what Down Syndrome is.
[笑声]（正常声音）现在我想说，我知道什么是唐氏综合症。
I know that Down Syndrome is something that you're born with when you are born with an extra chromosome.
我知道唐氏综合症是当你出生时有一条额外的染色体时与生俱来的。
I know all that information.
我知道所有这些信息。
I knew that information then.
我当时就知道这个信息了。
But something about eating this brownie made me think that somehow I had grown an extra chromosome and I now had adult-onset Down Syndrome.
但吃这个布朗尼让我觉得不知何故我长出了一条额外的染色体，我现在患有成人唐氏综合症。
[LAUGHTER] And for people who have Down Syndrome, it's something they grow up with.
[笑声] 对于患有唐氏综合症的人来说，这是他们成长的过程。
And they grow up and they have healthy and happy lives.
他们长大了，过上了健康快乐的生活。
I just got it.
我刚拿到。
[LAUGHTER] And I start freaking out.
[笑声]我开始害怕了。
I'm just like, I'm going to have to explain this to people.
我只是想，我必须向人们解释这一点。
And I start panicking.
我开始惊慌。
And I just start freaking out, freaking out to the point where I start weeping in the middle of Dodger Stadium.
我开始惊慌失措，吓得我在道奇体育场中央哭泣。
And then, I start laughing.
然后，我开始笑。
And then, I start weeping again.
然后，我又开始哭泣。
And then, a bunch of cops start walking towards me.
然后，一群警察开始向我走来。
And something in my brain just clicks on.
我脑子里的某些东西突然响起。
It's like, Wyatt, you have to keep it together right now.
就像怀亚特，你现在必须保持团结。
I was like, (UNUSUAL ACCENT) yes.
我当时想，（不寻常的口音）是的。
Keep it together.
保持在一起。
(NORMAL VOICE) Yeah, Wyatt, there are cops right there.
（正常声音）是的，怀亚特，那里有警察。
They cannot know you are high.
他们不可能知道你很高。
(UNUSUAL ACCENT) No, they cannot know I am high.
（不寻常的口音）不，他们不可能知道我吸毒了。
(NORMAL VOICE) And now, my internal monologue has become my external monologue.
（正常声音）现在，我的内心独白变成了我的外在独白。
And I start pointing at the cops.
我开始指着警察。
[LAUGHTER] And I'm like, (UNUSUAL ACCENT) you cannot know I am high.
[笑声] 我就像，（不寻常的口音）你不可能知道我很兴奋。
I have to fool you.
我得骗你。
I am fooling you.
我在骗你。
[LAUGHTER] (NORMAL VOICE) We thought maybe it's time we should leave Dodger Stadium.
[笑声]（正常声音）我们想也许是时候离开道奇体育场了。
I'm not sure exactly how far into the game we were.
我不确定我们的游戏到底进行到什么程度了。
I know it was past the first inning.
我知道第一局已经过去了。
We might not have made it to the third inning.
我们可能无法进入第三局。
[LAUGHTER] But we leave.
[笑声]但是我们离开了。
And we get back to Steve's place.
我们回到史蒂夫的住处。
Ben immediately leaves, goes home, sees his roommate who's like, hey, what's up?
本立即离开，回家，看到他的室友，他说，嘿，怎么了？
And he goes, I think I killed Wyatt.
他说，我想我杀了怀亚特。
[LAUGHTER] Steve decides to park himself on the couch and watch TV, not TV shows, just a blank TV.
[笑声] 史蒂夫决定把自己放在沙发上看电视，不是电视节目，只是一台空白电视。
[LAUGHTER] Sweet Dave went to a cookout.
[笑声] 可爱的戴夫去参加野餐了。
[LAUGHTER] Ira Glass Wyatt Cenac.
[笑声]艾拉·格拉斯·怀亚特·塞纳克。
You can catch him every Monday night hosting a show called Night Train at Little Field in Brooklyn, New York.
你可以在每周一晚上看到他在纽约布鲁克林的 Little Field 主持一档名为《夜间列车》的节目。
Act Four, Straight Man.
第四幕，直男。
So, Marc Maron is a comedian who, for a long time, very aggressively did smoke pot, every day.
所以，马克·马龙是一位喜剧演员，在很长一段时间里，他每天都非常积极地吸大麻。
He also did coke, and LSD, and mushrooms.
他还吸可乐、迷幻药和蘑菇。
He says that, for a while, he did so many drugs that he was hearing voices.
他说，有一段时间，他吸了太多毒，以至于他听到了声音。
He first tried to get sober in 1988.
1988年，他第一次尝试戒酒。
He has now been continuously sober for over 15 years.
至今，他已经连续15年保持清醒。
He's best known these days for his podcast, WTF, which is basically the New York Times of comedy podcasts.
如今，他最出名的是他的播客 WTF，这基本上就是喜剧播客中的《纽约时报》。
It's like the comedy podcast of record.
这就像记录的喜剧播客。
Every comedian goes on to talk to Marc.
每个喜剧演员都继续与马克交谈。
He also has a TV series on IFC.
他还在 IFC 上制作了一部电视连续剧。
We reached out to him because he's been on both sides of the line, right?
我们联系他是因为他一直在这条线的两边，对吗？
He's been a daily drug user.
他每天都吸毒。
And he has been sober.
而且他一直很清醒。
And we thought that he would just have some perspective on what each side thinks of the other.
我们认为他只是对双方对对方的看法有一些看法。
So we're doing this episode of our show this week with a lot of drug stories.
因此，我们本周将在这一集节目中讲述很多毒品故事。
And you seemed like the perfect person to ask this question of, because I know that you're someone who loves a funny story when you hear it.
你似乎是问这个问题的最佳人选，因为我知道你是一个喜欢听有趣故事的人。
But you're also somebody who has seen what addiction can do to people.
但你也见证了成瘾对人们造成的影响。
So, one of the questions I wanted to ask you is, given how drugs kill people and how dangerous they are, is it OK to laugh at these stories?
所以，我想问你的问题之一是，考虑到毒品如何杀人以及它们有多么危险，嘲笑这些故事可以吗？
Because they're funny.
因为他们很有趣。
Most drug stories are stories about people who are out of control in some way and get into horrendously risky or embarrassing situations.
大多数毒品故事都是关于人们在某种程度上失控并陷入可怕的危险或尴尬境地的故事。
And--
还有——
I know.
我知道。
But isn't it glorifying a thing that shouldn't be glorified?
但这不是在颂扬不该颂扬的东西吗？
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
Have people told you stories that you enjoyed-- like even on your podcast-- have people told you stories that are funny stories, but there's a little part of you that's in recovery that cringes a little bit?
有人给你讲过你喜欢的故事吗——就像在你的播客上一样——有人给你讲过有趣的故事，但你在康复过程中的某个部分却有点畏缩？
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
But I think that the other side of glorification is-- I would say that it's as much of a red flag or a warning sign as it is a glorification.
但我认为赞美的另一面是——我想说，它既是赞美，也是危险信号或警告信号。
You're going to laugh on either side of that.
无论是哪一边你都会笑。
It's like, oh my god!
这就像，天啊！
That guy almost died.
那家伙差点就死了。
I am so glad that I do not live that life.
我很高兴我没有过那样的生活。
But you can also see that as, like, there is a strange courage to it.
但你也可以看到，这有一种奇怪的勇气。
And I think that mythology is wearing away.
我认为神话正在消失。
That mythology being?
那个神话存在？
Marc Maron That there is a courage to the drug adventurer.
马克·马龙 毒品冒险家有勇气。
Right.
正确的。
Marc Maron I think that was something that the '60s was sort of built on.
马克·马龙（Marc Maron） 我认为 60 年代就是以此为基础的。
And I think that it was something that creativity and art was sort of built on, that there was struggle, and torment, and alcohol, and drugs, that people wrestled this amazing--
我认为这是创造力和艺术的基础，有斗争、折磨、酒精和毒品，人们进行了如此惊人的摔跤——
And that there was something to learn from drugs.
从毒品中可以学到一些东西。
You do?
你做？
Marc Maron Well, yeah, I did that big story on my '95 HBO half hour about going to a Jerry Garcia concert and being on mushrooms by myself.
马克·马龙（Marc Maron）：嗯，是的，我在 95 年的 HBO 半小时节目中报道了一个关于去听杰里·加西亚音乐会并独自吃蘑菇的大故事。
And I will stand by that story as being the primary thing that you learn on drugs.
我坚信这个故事是你从毒品中学到的首要内容。
Wait, I don't know this story, I'm sorry to say.
等等，我很抱歉地说，我不知道这个故事。
What happens?
会发生什么？
Not to make you do an entire bit here but, essentially, what happens?
并不是让你在这里做全部事情，但本质上，会发生什么？
Well, what happens is I'm going to see Jerry Garcia with my roommates.
好吧，接下来的事情是我要去见杰里·加西亚和我的室友。
It was at the Orpheum, I believe, in Boston.
我相信是在波士顿的奥菲姆剧院。
And I'm in college.
我已经上大学了。
And I'd gotten my tickets from these two girls I didn't know that well.
我的票是从这两个我不太熟悉的女孩那里拿到的。
One of them was in my class.
其中一位是我班上的。
And my roommates had their tickets.
我的室友也有票。
And we're going to the concert.
我们要去听音乐会。
And we just eat a big bag of mushrooms.
我们就吃了一大袋蘑菇。
And we get to the concert.
我们去听音乐会。
And they're going to sit somewhere else.
他们会坐在其他地方。
So I'm all alone with these strange girls.
所以我独自一人和这些奇怪的女孩在一起。
And I'm beginning to trip on mushrooms.
我开始被蘑菇绊倒了。
And it's not good.
这并不好。
You just feel that weird kind of amp.
你只是感觉到那种奇怪的放大器。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Marc Maron You start getting that surge where you begin to trip on hallucinogens.
马克·马龙（Marc Maron）：当你开始迷失致幻剂时，你就会开始感到激增。
And your head feels like it's about to pop off.
你的头感觉快要掉下来了。
And your perception is starting to change.
你的看法开始改变。
And I'm starting to freak out a little bit.
我开始有点害怕了。
Because I don't know who I'm with.
因为我不知道我和谁在一起。
My roommates are down somewhere else, sitting there.
我的室友们坐在下面的其他地方。
And I'm looking at these girls.
我正在看着这些女孩。
And their faces are a little too large now.
而且他们的脸现在有点太大了。
And everything's getting a little sweaty.
一切都变得有点出汗。
And I'm starting to panic.
我开始恐慌。
And I'm thinking, like, OK.
我想，好吧。
I could always go to the emergency room if I freak out.
如果我吓坏了，我随时可以去急诊室。
I could just go to the emergency room.
我可以去急诊室。
And I think that the women I'm sitting with, who don't really know me, are sensing that I'm starting to panic.
我认为和我坐在一起的那些并不真正了解我的女士们已经感觉到我开始恐慌了。
And they're like, do you want some gum?
他们就像，你想要一些口香糖吗？
And I'm like, oh god, that would be so good.
我想，天哪，那太好了。
Gum would just be the right thing right now, like everything is when you're tripping.
口香糖现在就是正确的选择，就像你绊倒时的一切一样。
Oh, of course, gum!
哦，当然是口香糖！
And they give me a piece of gum.
他们给了我一块口香糖。
And it's Freshen-Up.
这是清新的。
And I didn't really register it until I put it in my mouth.
直到我把它放进嘴里，我才真正注意到它。
So this gum explodes.
所以这个口香糖会爆炸。
And I think--
我认为——
[LAUGHS] The gum with the squirty inside, right?
[笑]里面有喷射物的口香糖，对吧？
Yeah, right.
是的，对。
And I think I'm bleeding.
我想我正在流血。
And I spit the gum out.
我把口香糖吐了出来。
And I'm just panicking.
我只是惊慌失措。
It's just awful.
太糟糕了。
And then, the lights go down.
然后，灯灭了。
And then, Jerry comes out.
然后，杰瑞出来了。
And he looks fat.
而且他看起来很胖。
And I'm hyper-sensitive on the mushrooms.
我对蘑菇非常敏感。
And I think I'm reading things.
我想我正在阅读一些东西。
And I'm feeling things.
我感觉到了一些事情。
I'm an empath.
我是一个有同理心的人。
And I realize Jerry's in trouble.
我意识到杰瑞有麻烦了。
He's overweight.
他超重了。
[LAUGHS] Marc Maron His voice doesn't sound good.
[笑]马克·马龙 他的声音听起来不太好。
So now, I'm freaking out on Jerry, who is really supposed to be the ultimate guide through this experience, you know?
所以现在，我对杰瑞感到害怕，他真的应该成为这次经历的终极向导，你知道吗？
Right, like calmest calm-inducing person.
是的，就像最冷静的人一样。
Right.
正确的。
He's the mythological Drug Buddha.
他就是传说中的药佛。
And if I'm getting a bad vibe from Jerry, I got nowhere to go.
如果杰瑞给我带来不好的感觉，我就无处可去。
And then, I notice there's one of those guys sitting in front of me who has clearly been to too many Dead shows and done so much acid that he operates at a different frequency than other people.
然后，我注意到坐在我前面的一个人显然参加了太多的《死亡》演出，并且做了太多的酸事，以至于他的工作频率与其他人不同。
He's kind of jerky.
他有点生涩。
And he's got a very graceful but odd way of just holding his body.
他以一种非常优雅但奇怪的方式保持自己的身体。
You see them at these type of events.
您会在此类活动中看到他们。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
And I'm thinking to myself, he'll help me out.
我心里想，他会帮助我的。
This guy will throw me a line.
这家伙会给我一条线。
So I'm trying to socialize with this guy.
所以我正在尝试与这个人交往。
And I tap him on the shoulder.
我拍拍他的肩膀。
And I go, hey, you know, pretty soon one day, Jerry's going to come out and him and his guitar are just going to be fused.
我说，嘿，你知道，很快有一天，杰瑞就会出来，他和他的吉他就会融合在一起。
They're going to be, like, one thing.
他们将成为一件事。
And this guy just cocks around with such precise hallucinogenic focus.
而这个家伙就以如此精确的致幻焦点四处晃动。
And he looks me right in the eye.
他直视着我的眼睛。
And he goes, (UNUSUAL ACCENT) just hang on, man!
然后他说，（不寻常的口音）坚持住，伙计！
Just hang on.
坚持住。
[LAUGHTER] And he turns around.
[笑声] 然后他转过身来。
And I'm like, that's it.
我想，就是这样。
I will do that.
我会这么做的。
I will hang on.
我会坚持下去。
Wait, and is that the insight one can have on drugs?
等等，这就是对毒品的洞察力吗？
Is just hang on?
难道只是坚持下去吗？
Yeah, a lot of times, if you just hang on, it'll pass.
是的，很多时候，只要你坚持下去，一切都会过去。
When you were smoking every day, did you feel superior to people who weren't doing drugs?
当你每天吸烟时，你是否比那些不吸毒的人感觉优越？
I felt like I had a secret.
我觉得我有一个秘密。
I don't know of that's superior.
我不知道这有什么优越性。
But I felt like, oh man, I'm so glad I'm seeing this like I'm seeing it.
但我感觉，天啊，我很高兴我能看到这个，就像我亲眼所见一样。
So I guess there is a slight superiority in that, that I'm not on this hamster wheel, man.
所以我想这有一点优势，我不在这个仓鼠轮子上，伙计。
You know, I'm just walking down the street.
你知道，我只是走在街上。
And I'm really seeing what the sunlight is doing.
我真的看到了阳光的作用。
It's sort of double-edged though.
但这有点双刃剑。
Because the squares are the people that try to function in the world-- like, weird moment back when I was doing a lot of coke.
因为方块是那些试图在世界上发挥作用的人——就像我喝很多可乐时的奇怪时刻。
And I think it speaks to your point.
我认为这符合你的观点。
I had this woman that I dated in college.
我有一个在大学约会过的女人。
She came out to visit me in LA.
她来洛杉矶来看我。
And I was living at this creepy old mansion behind The Comedy Store that Mitzi Shore owned.
我住在米兹海岸拥有的喜剧商店后面的这座令人毛骨悚然的老宅邸里。
And we were just up there at all hours, doing drugs, and staying up all night, and playing guitar, and talking about whatever for hours.
我们整天都在那里，吸毒，熬夜，弹吉他，聊上几个小时的任何事情。
So this woman comes to visit me.
所以这个女人来看我。
And it's like 3:00 in the morning.
时间大约是凌晨 3:00。
And she's just a regular girl who works for-- now, she works in health administration.
她只是一个普通女孩，现在在卫生管理部门工作。
But so, she comes out to visit me.
但就这样，她出来来看我了。
And we're up in the middle of the night.
而且我们半夜就起来了。
And I'm just reveling in it, like, this is amazing, man!
我只是陶醉其中，就像，这太棒了，伙计！
Nobody lives like this!
没有人这样生活！
We're living!
我们还活着！
And then, she leaves completely discombobulated and visibly upset for things I couldn't quite understand.
然后，她就彻底心烦意乱地离开了，而且显然对我不太理解的事情感到不安。
And she sends me a handwritten letter, because that's what we did then, basically explaining to me-- she's like, you know when you stood up and just celebrated the fact that nobody lives like we do?
她给我发了一封手写的信，因为这就是我们当时所做的，基本上向我解释——她就像，你知道当你站起来庆祝没有人像我们一样生活的事实吗？
And she wrote, I don't know if you know this, but nobody would really want to live like that.
她写道，我不知道你是否知道这一点，但没有人真的愿意那样生活。
[LAUGHTER] Like, what do you think you're doing over there staying up all night, doing blow, playing guitar, and talking about nothing for hours to the point where none of you can function in the real world at all?
[笑声] 就像，你认为你在那里整晚不睡觉，吹奏，弹吉他，几个小时无所事事地谈论什么，以至于你们中的任何一个人都无法在现实世界中工作？
It's like, no!
就像，不！
We're the ones who are winning!
我们才是胜利者！
So that superiority is very shortsighted.
所以这种优越感是非常短视的。
And each side feels superior to the other.
而且双方都感觉自己比对方优越。
But no, I do think that their side sort of wins.
但不，我确实认为他们的一方会获胜。
Well, being the people that can function in this society that we're supposed to sort of function in.
好吧，成为能够在这个我们应该发挥作用的社会中发挥作用的人。
Well, I feel like you get so quickly, in this kind of discussion, to there are just two different ways to drink or do drugs.
嗯，我觉得你在这种讨论中很快就明白了喝酒或吸毒只有两种不同的方式。
And there's all the people who can't control it.
还有所有无法控制它的人。
And they end up alcoholics and addicts.
他们最终成为酗酒者和瘾君子。
And then, there's all the people who can control it.
然后，还有所有可以控制它的人。
They can do it occasionally, and they're fine.
他们偶尔可以这样做，而且很好。
And it's just--
这只是——
Those horrible people that can have a couple of drinks.
那些可怕的人可以喝几杯。
Or even worse, the people like, yeah, I smoke a couple of cigarettes, maybe, on the weekend.
或者更糟糕的是，人们喜欢，是的，我可能在周末抽几支烟。
You horrible person!
你这个可怕的人！
Where's your sense of commitment?
你的承诺感在哪里？
[LAUGHS] Marc Maron I mean, don't you want to invest your life in this project?
[笑] Marc Maron 我的意思是，你不想把你的一生投入到这个项目中吗？
OK.
好的。
I want to play you a clip of you.
我想给你播放一段你的片段。
This is you performing in 1998.
这是你在1998年的表演。
I think you're just off drugs at this point.
我想你现在已经戒毒了。
But maybe not.
但也许不是。
In all honesty, I feel bad for people who have never been addicted to anything.
老实说，我为那些从未对任何东西上瘾的人感到难过。
Because they're the real losers.
因为他们才是真正的失败者。
[LAUGHTER] You want to know why?
[笑声]你想知道为什么吗？
Because they just don't know what it's like to really want something-- and get it again, and again, and again--
因为他们只是不知道真正想要某样东西是什么感觉——并且一次又一次地得到它——
Do you still feel that way?
你仍然有这样的感觉吗？
Marc Maron Yeah.
马克·马龙 是的。
[LAUGHS] I feel that way as a survivor.
[笑]作为幸存者我有这种感觉。
And it's very hard for me to say-- like, I don't regret the times I did drugs.
我很难说——我并不后悔我吸毒的时光。
I don't regret the times that I almost died or was in horrible situations.
我并不后悔那些差点死去或处于可怕境地的时光。
I don't regret wasting, possibly, years of my life.
我并不后悔浪费了我生命中的岁月。
Because I can't live like that.
因为我不能那样生活。
I can't live in those regrets.
我不能活在这些遗憾中。
But some of those times were great times.
但其中一些时光是美好的时光。
Some of those times were hilarious times.
其中一些时候是搞笑的时候。
I don't regret all those times.
那些次我并不后悔。
I mean, am I happy that it didn't drag me down the hole?
我的意思是，我很高兴它没有把我拖入深渊吗？
And hurt a lot of other people?
还伤害了很多人？
And make me sick in a way that I could not get better or even die?
让我病得无法好转甚至死亡？
I'm happy about that.
我对此很高兴。
But I am also thrilled that I had some of the experiences I did.
但我也很高兴我有一些经历。
And that's the two sides of it.
这就是它的两个方面。
Marc Maron.
马克·马龙.
The second season of his TV show on IFC starts May 8.
他在 IFC 上的电视节目第二季将于 5 月 8 日开播。
Act Five, "DEA Agent Takes a Hit." So this is a moment when everything seems in flux in how our country sees and deals with drugs, particularly marijuana.
第五幕，“缉毒局探员受到打击”。因此，在这个时刻，我们国家看待和处理毒品（尤其是大麻）的方式似乎都在变化。
Case in point, the past few months in Congress, the House Government Oversight Committee has been holding a series of hearings called "Mixed Signals, the Administration's Stance on Marijuana."
典型的例子是，过去几个月，众议院政府监督委员会在国会举行了一系列名为“混合信号，政府对大麻的立场”的听证会。
These are the Committee's first hearings on pot in a decade.
这是委员会十年来首次就大麻问题举行听证会。
And they're holding them now, in large part, because so many states-- 20 states plus Washington, DC-- now allow some form of legal marijuana, which of course is in direct conflict with federal drug law.
他们现在持有这些大麻，很大程度上是因为很多州——20个州加上华盛顿特区——现在允许某种形式的合法大麻，这当然与联邦禁毒法直接冲突。
And one of the interesting things about these hearings is that two congressmen who think that our marijuana policies are totally out of whack, they think that pot should not be illegal under federal law-- have been using these hearings as an opportunity to, basically, lay into narcs, just to chew them out.
这些听证会的一个有趣的事情是，两名国会议员认为我们的大麻政策完全不正常，他们认为根据联邦法律，大麻不应该是非法的，他们一直利用这些听证会作为一个机会，基本上是对缉毒人员进行打击，只是为了痛斥他们。
It's kind of incredible.
这有点不可思议。
You almost never hear people on two sides of this issue talk to each other this directly, this fiercely, in public.
你几乎从来没有听到这个问题的双方在公开场合如此直接、如此激烈地交谈。
One side, OK, sees pot smoking as normal, everyday, no biggie.
一方面，好吧，认为吸大麻是正常的，每天都有，没什么大不了的。
What's the fuss?
有什么大惊小怪的？
The other side sees the everyday-ness of pot as the problem, as a menace.
另一方则将大麻的日常性视为问题、威胁。
Brian Reed tells about one of these congressional face-offs.
布莱恩·里德讲述了其中一场国会对峙。
I'm going to play you my favorite tape from these hearings.
我将给你们播放我最喜欢的听证会磁带。
It's of one of the congressmen, Steve Cohen from Memphis in an Oversight Committee hearing on March 4.
这是来自孟菲斯的国会议员史蒂夫·科恩 (Steve Cohen) 3 月 4 日在监督委员会听证会上的照片。
Cohen isn't even on the Oversight Committee, by the way.
顺便说一句，科恩甚至不是监督委员会的成员。
He asked for special permission to take part in the hearing, because he had some things he wanted to say to the witness, Thomas Harrigan.
他请求获得特别许可参加听证会，因为他有一些话想对证人托马斯·哈里根说。
Harrigan is second in charge of the agency tasked with enforcing federal drug laws, the DEA.
哈里根是负责执行联邦毒品法的机构 DEA 的第二负责人。
The two men do not see eye-to-eye.
这两个人的看法并不相同。
Mr. Harrigan, you've been in this business now for close to 30 years?
Harrigan 先生，您从事这个行业已经近 30 年了？
1987, you started with the DEA.
1987 年，您开始与 DEA 合作。
How have your views changed on marijuana in those 30 years?
这 30 年来，您对大麻的看法发生了怎样的变化？
To be quite honest with you, sir, very little.
先生，老实说，很少。
I was afraid of that.
我很害怕。
Thomas Harrigan I see the devastation--
托马斯·哈里根 我看到了毁灭——
That's enough.
这就够了。
The fact that it's changed very little says a lot about--
它几乎没有改变这一事实说明了很多——
Do you want me to respond to your question, sir?
先生，您想让我回答您的问题吗？
No, sir.
不，先生。
Thomas Harrigan Because I would be happy to.
托马斯·哈里根 因为我很乐意这样做。
I know you would.
我知道你会的。
We have limited time.
我们的时间有限。
The fact that it's changed very little shows that you haven't kept up with society.
事实上，它变化很小，说明你没有跟上社会的步伐。
You haven't kept up with science.
你没有跟上科学的步伐。
And it's part of the problem--
这是问题的一部分——
All right.
好吧。
You mentioned in your statement that, quote, "It insults our common values." I want you to read me what you said.
您在声明中提到，“这侮辱了我们的共同价值观。”我想让你读给我听你说的话。
Yes, sir.
是的，先生。
I believe this is the section you're referring to.
我相信这就是您所指的部分。
"We also know that marijuana destroys lives and families, undermines our economy, and insults our common values."
“我们也知道大麻会摧毁生命和家庭，破坏我们的经济，并侮辱我们的共同价值观。”
I will tell you.
我会告诉你。
I will tell you if you let me.
如果你允许的话我会告诉你。
You said, we know.
你说，我们知道。
You're speaking as clairvoyant voice of America.
你是作为美国的千里眼之声说话的。
What are our common values?
我们共同的价值观是什么？
Well, I would venture to guess all of law enforcement, just about every single parent out there as well.
好吧，我冒昧地猜测所有执法部门，以及几乎每一位单亲家长。
Every single parent?
每个单亲父母？
Thomas Harrigan Yes, every single parent.
托马斯·哈里根 是的，每一位单亲家长。
It's based on, again, medical, sir, and scientific fact, not public opinion.
先生，这又是基于医学和科学事实，而不是公众舆论。
OK, I am not the medical expert, as I said before.
好吧，正如我之前所说，我不是医学专家。
Everything that I do is based on my 30 plus years of law enforcement.
我所做的一切都是基于我 30 多年的执法经验。
Let me stop you for a minute.
让我阻止你一分钟。
You said, it insults our common values.
你说，这侮辱了我们的共同价值观。
What is the value it insults?
它侮辱了什么价值？
What is the value it insults?
它侮辱了什么价值？
Steve Cohen Yeah, you said, this--
史蒂夫·科恩 是的，你说过，这个——
Do we have all--?
我们都有——吗？
I could easily go on and on.
我可以轻松地继续下去。
You haven't started yet.
你还没有开始。
Thomas Harrigan Well, you continue to interrupt me.
托马斯·哈里根 好吧，你继续打断我。
I would be happy to address your question.
我很乐意回答你的问题。
Answer my question, sir.
回答我的问题，先生。
Thomas Harrigan Yes, you know what?
托马斯·哈里根 是的，你知道吗？
From a bare minimum, as a parent, as a former educator, as a law enforcement official for all these years, I have seen the devastation that marijuana has caused not only on individuals, on families and communities.
这些年来，作为一名家长、一名前教育工作者、一名执法官员，我至少看到了大麻不仅对个人、家庭和社区造成的破坏。
What's our common value, though?
但我们的共同价值观是什么？
You still haven't stated the common value.
你还没有说出共同的价值观。
And the fact is 55% of Americans are in favor of decriminalization or legalization.
事实上，55%的美国人赞成非罪化或合法化。
I got to imagine that some of them are parents.
我必须想象他们中的一些人是父母。
Your statement that all parents are against this is ludicrous.
你所说的所有父母都反对这一点的说法是可笑的。
Want do you think?
你觉得想要吗？
People that are in favor of decriminalization or a change in policy--
赞成非罪化或改变政策的人——
I didn't say, all.
我没说，全部。
Steve Cohen --don't procreate?
史蒂夫·科恩——不生育吗？
I said, most parents-- Steve Cohen You said, all.
我说，大多数父母——史蒂夫·科恩 你说，所有。
--would be opposed to this.
——会反对这一点。
Steve Cohen And most is wrong too, 55% of America!
史蒂夫·科恩 (Steve Cohen) 大多数人也错了，55% 的美国人！
Are they all parents?
他们都是父母吗？
Steve Cohen I don't think that the polls went into that.
史蒂夫·科恩（Steve Cohen）：我认为民意调查没有涉及到这一点。
But I suspect a whole bunch of them were.
但我怀疑他们中的很多人都是。
It's not--
这不是——
This went on for more than five minutes.
这样的情况持续了五分多钟。
I call the DEA to see if Thomas Harrigan wanted to come on the radio and have a chance to actually respond, since Cohen barely let him get a word in edgewise.
我打电话给缉毒局，询问托马斯·哈里根是否愿意参加广播并有机会做出实际回应，因为科恩几乎不让他插话。
But the DEA spokesperson said Harrigan was busy preparing for another hearing this week, so he couldn't do it.
但缉毒局发言人表示，哈里根正忙于准备本周的另一次听证会，因此无法参加。
As for Congressman Cohen, one of his biggest beefs with the country's drug policy is the fact that marijuana is classified as a Schedule 1 drug.
至于国会议员科恩，他对国家毒品政策最大的不满之一是大麻被列为一级毒品。
That means, in the eyes of the federal government , marijuana has a high potential for abuse and no accepted medical use.
这意味着，在联邦政府看来，大麻很可能被滥用，并且不被接受的医疗用途。
Heroin, LSD, peyote, these are all Schedule 1.
海洛因、LSD、仙人掌，这些都在附表 1 中。
Cocaine and meth, on the other hand, are Schedule 2, a less serious designation.
另一方面，可卡因和冰毒属于附表 2，是一个不太严重的名称。
So under federal law, marijuana is considered the most dangerous type of drug, more dangerous than cocaine and meth.
因此，根据联邦法律，大麻被认为是最危险的毒品，比可卡因和冰毒更危险。
In Cohen's words, that's poppycock.
用科恩的话说，这是胡说八道。
He says, marijuana is the least dangerous of these drugs and most people know it including, apparently, President Obama.
他说，大麻是这些药物中危险性最小的，大多数人都知道它，显然包括奥巴马总统。
In a New Yorker profile earlier this year, Obama said, quote, "As has been well-documented, I smoked pot as a kid.
在今年早些时候的《纽约客》简介中，奥巴马说道：“正如有充分证据表明的那样，我小时候吸过大麻。
And I view it as a bad habit and a vice, not very different from the cigarettes that I smoked as a young person up through a big chunk of my adult life.
我认为这是一种坏习惯和恶习，与我年轻时在成年生活的大部分时间里吸的香烟没有太大区别。
I don't think it is more dangerous than alcohol."
我不认为它比酒精更危险。”
In fact, Obama said, quote, "In terms of its impact on the individual consumer, he believes pot is less dangerous than alcohol," which just shows how confused we are as a country right now when it comes to what we're supposed to be doing about marijuana.
事实上，奥巴马说，“就其对个人消费者的影响而言，他认为大麻比酒精危险性要小”，这恰恰表明我们作为一个国家现在在处理大麻问题上是多么困惑。
You've got the president of the United States saying something like that about pot while, at the same time, he's the boss of an entire bureaucracy with thousands of people whose job is to think the opposite.
美国总统对大麻说了类似的话，而与此同时，他是整个官僚机构的老板，拥有数千名员工，他们的工作就是持相反的看法。
Brian Reed is one of the producers of our show.
布莱恩·里德是我们节目的制片人之一。
Well, our program was produced today by Sean Cole and myself, with Alex Blumberg, Ben Calhoun, Stephanie Foo, Chana Joffe-Walt, Sarah Koenig, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Brian Reed, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike, our senior producers Julie Snyder, production help from Alison Davis.
今天我们的节目由 Sean Cole 和我本人制作，还有 Alex Blumberg、Ben Calhoun、Stephanie Foo、Chana Joffe-Walt、Sarah Koenig、Miki Meek、Jonathan Menjivar、Brian Reed、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike，我们的高级制作人 Julie Snyder 以及 Alison Davis 的制作帮助。
Seth Lind is our operations director.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的运营总监。
Emily Condon is our production manager.
艾米丽·康登 (Emily Condon) 是我们的生产经理。
Elise Bergerson's our administrative assistant.
埃莉斯·伯格森是我们的行政助理。
Adrianne Mathiowetz runs our website.
阿德琳娜·马修韦茨 (Adrianne Mathiowetz) 负责运营我们的网站。
Research help from Julie Beer and Michelle Harris.
朱莉·比尔和米歇尔·哈里斯的研究帮助。
Music help from Damien Graef and Rob Geddis.
Damien Graef 和 Rob Geddis 提供音乐帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
[致谢] 我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
And thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, whenever I get on the back of his motorcycle with him, he never lets me wear a helmet.
你知道，每当我和他一起骑上他的摩托车后座时，他从来不让我戴头盔。
And I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。