522: Tarred and Feathered - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #522 | April 11, 2014 522: Tarred and Feathered Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 522 集 | 2014 年 4 月 11 日 522：焦油和羽毛 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Hey, everybody, Ira Glass here.
序言 Ira Glass 大家好，我是 Ira Glass。
So we've been working on today's episode of the radio show for a while, and the theme of the episode is "Tarred and Feathered." And initially, we just assumed we'd be using the phrase "tarred and feathered" as a metaphor for when somebody is shamed publicly.
我们已经为今天的广播节目制作了一段时间，这一集的主题是“焦油和羽毛”。最初，我们只是假设我们会使用“焦油和羽毛”这个短语来比喻某人被公开羞辱。
But then we read a news report about a guy named Jock Nelson, who actually was tarred and feathered.
但后来我们读到了一篇关于一个名叫乔克·尼尔森的人的新闻报道，他实际上涂满了柏油，身上长满了羽毛。
Somebody poured tar on him and then stuck feathers to the tar, and not in the year 1850 or something.
有人把焦油倒在他身上，然后把羽毛粘在焦油上，而且不是在 1850 年之类的。
This was in 2007, seven years ago, in Belfast in Northern Ireland.
那是七年前的 2007 年，地点是北爱尔兰的贝尔法斯特。
Where did it happen?
在哪发生的？
Was it just around that corner?
就在那个拐角处吗？
OK, so I'm looking over to where you're pointing.
好的，我正在看你指的地方。
And there's a day nursery, the Scribbles Day Nursery.
还有一个日间托儿所，即涂鸦日间托儿所。
Jon Ronson, who appears on our show from time to time, happened to be going to Belfast this week and happens to be writing a book about public shaming.
乔恩·罗森（Jon Ronson）时不时地出现在我们的节目中，他这周碰巧要去贝尔法斯特，并且碰巧正在写一本关于公开羞辱的书。
So we asked him to go check out where this happened, which, yes, was right in front of a daycare center.
所以我们让他去看看事情发生的地方，是的，就在日托中心前面。
He was tied to a post.
他被绑在一根柱子上。
Was it that post right there that he was tied to, that lamp post?
他被绑在那个柱子上，那个灯柱吗？
Yup.
是的。
The woman actually wanted to beat him.
这个女人其实是想打他。
And people were saying, well, you can't very well beat him.
人们说，好吧，你不可能打败他。
He's tied to a lamp post, and he's tarred and feathered.
他被绑在一根灯柱上，身上涂满了柏油，身上长满了羽毛。
We can't really add insult to injury.
我们真的不能雪上加霜。
Or injury to the insult, maybe I should say.
也许我应该说，或者是侮辱中的伤害。
Jon is talking here to Jackie McDonald, who is one of the leaders of the UDA, the Ulster Defense Association, which is a paramilitary group.
乔恩正在与杰基·麦克唐纳交谈，杰基·麦克唐纳是 UDA（阿尔斯特防卫协会）的领导人之一，该协会是一个准军事组织。
During all the years of troubles in Northern Ireland, the paramilitary groups were the ones who would beat people up.
在北爱尔兰这些年的动乱中，准军事组织就是殴打人民的人。
They'd shoot people on both sides of the conflict.
他们会射杀冲突双方的人。
And even though most of the violence ended with a ceasefire in the 1990s, those groups are still around.
尽管大部分暴力事件在 20 世纪 90 年代以停火告终，但这些团体仍然存在。
They still exist.
它们仍然存在。
Jon says that Jackie McDonald looks and dresses a lot like Pauly from The Sopranos .
乔恩说杰基·麦克唐纳的外表和穿着很像《黑道家族》中的保利。
Yeah, he had a big gold chain.
是的，他有一条大金链子。
He had thick, kind of Pauly hair.
他有一头浓密的保利头发。
He had his shirt open, so you could see his chest hair.
他把衬衫敞开着，所以你可以看到他的胸毛。
He had one of those leather jackets that tough guys wear.
他有一件硬汉穿的皮夹克。
Did his organization do the tarring and feathering?
他的组织负责涂柏油和羽毛吗？
Well, he kept on saying the community did it.
好吧，他一直说是社区做到了。
But then when I pressed him, he said, well, we are the community leaders, the UDA, so yeah.
但当我向他施压时，他说，好吧，我们是社区领袖，UDA，所以是的。
By the way, were you here the day that they--
顺便说一下，他们那天你在这儿吗——
Now when he said that, the woman who was standing with him--
现在，当他这么说的时候，与他站在一起的那个女人——
A local.
一个当地人。
Jon Ronson A local lady-- burst into silent laughter, which I found quite telling.
乔恩·罗森（Jon Ronson）一位当地女士——突然爆发出无声的笑声，我觉得这很能说明问题。
Now, people do all kinds of things in this world that might tick off a paramilitary group.
现在，人们在这个世界上做各种各样的事情，可能会激怒准军事组织。
So what does it take to get tarred and feathered?
那么，怎样才能涂上柏油和羽毛呢？
Like what exactly did this guy do?
比如说这个人到底做了什么？
OK, well, according to the Daily Mail article that came out at the time, he'd been a bouncer in a city center bar.
好吧，根据当时发表的《每日邮报》文章，他曾在市中心一家酒吧担任保镖。
And he lost his job, and he was having marital difficulties.
他失去了工作，婚姻也出现了困难。
And so he started dealing drugs to children, according to the Daily Mail.
据《每日邮报》报道，因此他开始向儿童贩卖毒品。
And he was repeatedly told to stop, but he didn't stop.
他多次被告知停止，但他没有停止。
And then one day, word got around a local pub that he was dealing drugs to children in a park.
然后有一天，当地一家酒吧传出他在公园里向儿童贩卖毒品的消息。
And then he was caught, literally, with bags of coke in his pocket.
然后他被抓了，毫不夸张地说，他的口袋里装着几袋可乐。
Well, why not just go to the police, if they caught the guy with the cocaine?
好吧，如果警察抓住了携带可卡因的人，为什么不直接去找警察呢？
The police need evidence, and the police need-- there's technicalities out there.
警察需要证据，警察需要——那里有技术细节。
And too many times in the past when drug dealers have been reported, they go to court, and they're back doing the same thing the same night.
过去很多次，当毒贩被举报后，他们就上法庭，然后当晚又回来做同样的事情。
So the community just thought it was more serious than that.
所以社区只是认为事情比这更严重。
It had to be dealt with in a different way.
必须以不同的方式处理它。
Right.
正确的。
Jackie Mcdonald We actually talked about having somewhere in the park where we could put-- what do you call it?
杰基·麦克唐纳 我们实际上讨论过在公园里找个地方可以放——你叫它什么？
Like the stocks?
喜欢股票吗？
Jackie Mcdonald Exactly.
杰基·麦克唐纳 没错。
The stocks.
股票。
We were going to have them there as a deterrent.
我们打算让他们在那里作为威慑。
Wait, wait, wait.
等等，等等，等等。
I'm just going to stop the tape.
我只是要停止播放磁带。
He's saying stocks, like in colonial America, like where people would have their hands sticking through wood things, and they would just bring in stocks?
他说的是股票，就像在殖民地的美国一样，人们把手伸进木头的东西里，然后他们就会引进股票？
Yep.
是的。
They were seriously considering bringing in stocks.
他们正在认真考虑引进库存。
I'm going to talk this over with the police.
我要和警察谈谈这件事。
When they say but if somebody was put in the stocks, and there was people throwing eggs or tomatoes at them, the police would have to intervene.
当他们说但是如果有人被放入库存中，并且有人向他们扔鸡蛋或西红柿时，警察就必须进行干预。
And I says, well, if the police intervene, then the eggs and the tomatoes would be thrown at the police.
我说，好吧，如果警察介入，那么鸡蛋和西红柿就会扔给警察。
So we didn't want to create that sort of situation.
所以我们不想造成这种情况。
And in the end, they decided, OK, well, we'll tar and feather him.
最后，他们决定，好吧，好吧，我们给他涂焦油和羽毛。
So what exactly happens when you're tarred and feathered?
那么当你涂上柏油和羽毛时到底会发生什么呢？
Like, how does it go?
比如，进展如何？
OK.
好的。
So he was told to turn up at a certain hour.
所以他被告知要在某个时间出现。
I think something like 11 o'clock in the morning on a Sunday morning.
我想大概是周日上午 11 点左右。
Wait, wait.
等等，等等。
They told him we're going to tar and feather you.
他们告诉他我们要给你涂焦油和羽毛。
Like you got to show up on time?
就像你必须准时出现一样？
They didn't mention the words "tarring and feathering." They just said, you have to show up.
他们没有提到“涂焦油和羽化”这个词。他们只是说，你必须出现。
You have to show up on Sunday morning at 11 o'clock.
你必须在周日早上 11 点出现。
And so he did.
他也这么做了。
Yeah, I know.
是的，我知道。
He would have been pretty certain that something bad was going to happen to him.
他非常确定有什么不好的事情会发生在他身上。
Nonetheless, he turned up on the dot of 11, because if you turn up late, something worse would happen to you.
尽管如此，他还是在十一点点出现了，因为如果你迟到，就会发生更糟糕的事情。
Back, during the troubles, this would happen all the time.
以前，有困难的时候，这种事经常发生。
People would be asked to show up like this, and then they would get beaten with iron bars or baseball bats.
人们会被要求这样出现，然后用铁棍或棒球棒殴打他们。
Or they would get shot through the knees or ankles or hands.
或者他们的膝盖、脚踝或手会被击中。
The paramilitary groups administered all kinds of punishments.
准军事团体实施了各种惩罚。
So the guy shows up, as requested.
所以那个人按照要求出现了。
And then what happened?
然后发生了什么？
Jackie Mcdonald He was tied up, and a placard put on him.
杰基·麦克唐纳（Jackie Mcdonald） 他被绑起来，并在他身上贴了一张标语牌。
And he was tarred and feathered.
他身上涂满了柏油，身上长满了羽毛。
I asked them where they got the tar from.
我问他们从哪里得到焦油。
And they said, B and Q, which is the local DIY superstore.
他们说，B and Q，这是当地的DIY超市。
What's the American version of--
美国版是什么——
That's like Home Depot.
这就像家得宝。
Jon Ronson Yeah, Home Depot.
乔恩·罗森 是的，家得宝。
Yeah, our Home Depot.
是的，我们的家得宝。
Were the feathers brought over in like a big bag?
羽毛是像大袋子一样拎进来的吗？
Or was it pillows?
或者是枕头？
I think it was a pillow.
我认为那是一个枕头。
Jon Ronson And would the pillow just have come from these houses just around here?
乔恩·罗森（Jon Ronson） 那么枕头是不是来自这附近的这些房子呢？
Well, if they had asked for pillows, they would get 100.
好吧，如果他们要枕头，他们会得到 100 个。
I don't know if you can tell what he just said.
我不知道你是否能听懂他刚才说的话。
He said, if they asked for pillows, they would've gotten 100.
他说，如果他们要枕头，他们会得到 100 个。
You know, the local people were very annoyed at what this fellow had done.
要知道，当地人对这个家伙的所作所为非常恼火。
There are pictures of what this guy looked like, once he was tarred and feathered.
有一些照片显示了这个家伙涂上柏油和羽毛后的样子。
And they are shocking.
他们令人震惊。
We put one on our website, if you're curious.
如果您好奇的话，我们在我们的网站上放了一个。
He barely looks like a person, like he's just this blob of black tar and white feathers.
他看起来几乎不像一个人，就像他只是一团黑色焦油和白色羽毛一样。
You can't see his face at all.
你根本看不到他的脸。
It's like his whole head is covered.
就好像整个头都被遮住了。
He looks like the Abominable Snowman or something, with a placard hanging around his neck that says, I'm a drug-dealing scumbag.
他看起来就像可恶的雪人什么的，脖子上挂着一张标语牌，上面写着，我是一个贩毒的渣男。
So in the Daily Mail article that came out, that said that Jock Nelson screamed for mercy, as he was being tarred and feathered, that it was boiling tar, and that his shirt was pulled down over his shoulders so that it would burn.
所以在《每日邮报》发表的文章中，说乔克·尼尔森在被涂上焦油和羽毛时尖叫着求饶，那是沸腾的焦油，他的衬衫被拉到肩膀上，这样它就会燃烧。
But Jackie says, it didn't happen quite that way and that Jock Nelson was fully clothed.
但杰基说，事情并非如此，乔克·尼尔森穿着衣服。
Was he making any kind of noise, as the tar went over him?
当焦油覆盖在他身上时，他有发出什么声音吗？
No. No. Not that I could hear from a distance.
不，不，我从远处听不到。
Right.
正确的。
OK.
好的。
So he wasn't screaming or anything.
所以他没有尖叫什么的。
No, no. I think he was happy enough that that's all that was happening to him.
不，不。我想他已经足够幸福了，这就是发生在他身上的一切。
But he must have some kind of-- it must have been terrible.
但他一定有某种——那一定很可怕。
Well, certainly, and it was meant to be.
嗯，当然，而且本来就是这样。
You have to remember, 10 years ago, this fellow would have been found, shot dead, [INAUDIBLE].
你必须记住，十年前，这个家伙会被发现并被枪杀，[听不清]。
But because of the peace process and people moving on, things have been dealt with differently.
但由于和平进程和人们的前进，事情的处理方式有所不同。
And at the end of the day, tarring and feathering wasn't the worst thing could have happened.
归根结底，涂焦油和羽毛并不是最糟糕的事情。
It could have been a lot worse.
情况可能会更糟。
Although the original story that we saw about this in the Daily Mail said that the guy who was tarred and feathered had been selling drugs to children, Jon came out of his visit to Belfast not sure that's true at all, or anyway, if it's the whole truth.
尽管我们在《每日邮报》上看到的有关此事的最初报道称，那个涂满柏油和羽毛的人一直在向儿童出售毒品，但乔恩在贝尔法斯特访问结束后不确定这是否属实，或者无论如何，这是否是全部真相。
A former BBC reporter named Brian Rowan, who's reported on Northern Ireland for over 20 years, pointed out to Jon that a guy like this one who was allegedly selling drugs might have been seen by the paramilitary groups as competition for their own drug operations.
一位名叫布莱恩·罗文 (Brian Rowan) 的前 BBC 记者对北爱尔兰进行了 20 多年的报道，他向乔恩指出，像这样涉嫌贩卖毒品的人可能会被准军事组织视为他们自己毒品业务的竞争对手。
And while it is presented in this kind of Robin Hood fashion of defender of the community and helper of the community, these are paramilitary organizations who themselves are involved in drugs, are involved in crime.
虽然它以社区捍卫者和社区帮助者的罗宾汉风格呈现，但这些准军事组织本身也参与毒品、参与犯罪。
This is their way of presenting themselves in the light that they would like to present themselves in, that they're defenders of the community.
这是他们展示自己的方式，表明他们是社区的捍卫者。
Keep in mind, also, that the allegation that Jock Nelson sold drugs is coming only from the paramilitary groups, that he never got due process.
另请记住，乔克·尼尔森出售毒品的指控仅来自准军事团体，他从未获得正当程序。
He got no day in court.
他没有出庭的机会。
We did reach out to him, to Jock Nelson, the guy who got tarred and feathered to get his side of the story.
我们确实联系了他，联系了乔克·尼尔森（Jock Nelson），这个人为了得到他的故事而涂满了柏油和羽毛。
We tried.
我们尝试过。
We contacted him on Twitter.
我们通过 Twitter 联系了他。
And he just sent us a message saying he didn't want to talk to us.
他刚刚给我们发了一条消息说他不想和我们说话。
But good luck with our story.
但祝我们的故事好运。
How's he doing?
他怎么样？
Jon Ronson He's left Belfast for a while, went to Scotland.
乔恩·罗森（Jon Ronson）他离开贝尔法斯特一段时间，去了苏格兰。
And now he's back working as a traffic warden.
现在他又回到了交通协管员的岗位。
A traffic warden gives out parking tickets.
交通协管员发出停车罚单。
And I said to Jackie McDonald, is he back selling drugs?
我对杰基·麦克唐纳说，他又回来贩毒了吗？
And Jackie McDonald said, look, if he was back selling drugs, he wouldn't be a traffic warden right now.
杰基·麦克唐纳说，看，如果他回来贩毒，他现在就不会成为交通督导员了。
He'd be dead.
他会死的。
You've been in prison yourself.
你自己也进过监狱。
So you know from both sides.
所以你从两方面都知道。
What is the best deterrent?
最好的威慑是什么？
Is it going to prison or is it being tarred and feathered?
它会被送进监狱还是会被涂上柏油和羽毛？
Oh, tarred and feathering, without a doubt.
哦，毫无疑问，涂了柏油和羽毛。
I think, with ordinary decent criminals, [INAUDIBLE], drug dealers, thieves, hoods, whatever, there's something like 47%, 48%, 49% re-offend.
我认为，对于普通的正派罪犯，[听不清]、毒贩、小偷、黑帮等等，重新犯罪的比例分别为 47%、48%、49%。
With tarring and feathering, it's only had to happen once.
通过涂焦油和羽化，只需进行一次。
There's been no re-offending since.
此后就没有再犯过。
Well, today on our radio show, "Tarred and Feathered." Apparently, humiliating somebody in public is something lots of people enjoy.
好吧，今天我们的广播节目“焦油和羽毛”。显然，在公共场合羞辱某人是很多人喜欢的事情。
And it's also really effective.
而且它也确实有效。
It gets results.
它得到结果。
People leave town.
人们离开城镇。
People change.
人们会改变。
We have stories today of people who very much do not want public shaming.
今天我们看到一些非常不想公开羞辱的人的故事。
And they take action, dramatic action.
他们采取行动，戏剧性的行动。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.
这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One.
第一幕。
The Hounds of Blairsville.
布莱尔斯维尔的猎犬。
There are all kinds of ways that you could be tarred and feathered, but the effects are pretty much the same, I think.
涂柏油和羽毛的方法有很多种，但我认为效果几乎是一样的。
People stop talking to you.
人们不再和你说话了。
You're a pariah.
你是一个贱民。
Stephanie Foo has this story from a small town in Georgia called Blairsville.
斯蒂芬妮·福（Stephanie Foo）讲述了一个来自佐治亚州布莱尔斯维尔小镇的故事。
Gene Cooley was planning his wedding.
吉恩·库利正在筹划他的婚礼。
A second marriage for him and his fiancee Paulette.
他和未婚妻保莱特的第二次婚姻。
And one day he was at work cutting hair-- he's a hairstylist-- when he got a call from the police.
有一天，他正在剪头发——他是一名发型师——这时他接到了警察的电话。
And starts asking me about a shooting, of course, I knew nothing about.
然后开始问我有关枪击事件的事，当然，我对此一无所知。
And all of a sudden, then they mention about Paulette.
突然，他们提到了保莱特。
And I just totally freaked out at that time.
当时我完全吓坏了。
So, give me a minute?
那么，请给我一分钟时间？
Yeah, yeah, of course.
是的，是的，当然。
Paulette's ex-husband had murdered Paulette and then killed himself.
波莱特的前夫谋杀了波莱特，然后自杀了。
He'd been unhappy about her remarrying.
他对她再婚感到不满。
She'd filed a restraining order against him.
她已经向他申请了限制令。
He'd been violent before.
他以前很暴力。
Police called it an open-and-shut case.
警方称这是一起公开的案件。
Gene, of course, was completely wrecked.
当然，吉恩彻底崩溃了。
He flew to her parents' house for the funeral.
他飞往她父母家参加葬礼。
Her family welcomed him into their home, cooked for him, comforted him.
她的家人欢迎他来到家里，为他做饭，安慰他。
Until Gene's second day there, when Paulette's dad started acting strangely.
直到吉恩到达那里的第二天，宝莱特的父亲开始表现得很奇怪。
I'd kind of slept in a little bit or I stayed in the room a little bit.
我会睡一会儿或者在房间里呆一会儿。
I think it was probably about 9:00.
我想大概是 9:00 左右。
He made a comment about oh, you always sleep this late?
他评论说哦，你总是睡这么晚？
And I said, no, sir.
我说，不，先生。
He was a little on the cold side.
他的性格有点冷淡。
And we started to have a little bit of breakfast.
我们开始吃一点早餐。
And he started asking me about rehab.
他开始问我有关康复的问题。
And I said whose rehab?
我说谁的康复中心？
And he said your rehab.
他说你的康复。
And I told him I've never been in a rehab.
我告诉他我从未进过康复中心。
What are you talking about?
你在说什么？
And he said, well, what about drug addictions?
他说，那么，吸毒成瘾怎么办？
And I said, I don't have a drug addiction.
我说，我没有毒瘾。
I don't know what you're talking about.
我不知道你在说什么。
Of course, that's exactly what you'd say if you were a drug addict.
当然，如果你是一个吸毒者，你就会这么说。
So Paulette's dad didn't find that very persuasive.
所以波莱特的父亲觉得这没什么说服力。
And that's when they informed me that they wanted me out.
就在那时他们告诉我他们希望我离开。
Gene had no idea where this was coming from, and didn't know how to prove that he'd never been an addict.
吉恩不知道这是从哪里来的，也不知道如何证明他从来没有上瘾。
Finally, out of desperation, he offered to go to the police, ask them to run a background check, print it out, and bring it back to prove he had never been in trouble with the law for drugs.
最后，出于绝望，他提出去警察局，要求他们进行背景调查，打印出来，然后带回来，以证明他从未因毒品而触犯过法律。
Paulette's father said, great.
宝莱特的父亲说，太好了。
Here are directions.
以下是方向。
Go do it now.
现在就去做吧。
On the way, he called his sister in Blairsville to tell her Paulette's parents were acting really weird.
在路上，他给布莱尔斯维尔的妹妹打电话，告诉她波莱特的父母表现得很奇怪。
And she said, something crazy is happening over here.
她说，这里正在发生一些疯狂的事情。
Things are being said about you, bad things, all over the internet on something called Topix.
互联网上一个名为 Topix 的网站上到处都在说你的坏话。
Topix is a website.
Topix 是一个网站。
If you live in a big city, chances are you've never even heard of it.
如果您住在大城市，很可能您从未听说过它。
But if you live in a small town, you probably know exactly what I'm talking about.
但如果你住在一个小镇，你可能确切地知道我在说什么。
Topix was originally supposed to be a local news site.
Topix 最初应该是一个本地新闻网站。
But in practice, it's just a big message board where anybody can create an account and post a news item.
但实际上，它只是一个大留言板，任何人都可以在其中创建帐户并发布新闻。
And so more often than not, in places like Blairsville, it's mostly gossip.
因此，在布莱尔斯维尔这样的地方，大多数时候都是八卦。
Blairsville's roughly a mile square.
布莱尔斯维尔大约有一英里见方。
It's got a population of about 650.
人口约650人。
And that day, dozens of people were commenting on Gene's fiancee's murder.
那天，有数十人在评论吉恩未婚妻的谋杀案。
At first, the comments were sympathetic, people saying they felt sorry for Paulette and her children.
起初，评论是同情的，人们说他们为保莱特和她的孩子们感到难过。
And then the comments got ugly.
然后评论就变得丑陋了。
There was like five or seven, I believe, user names being real hateful, real derogative, real just nasty on there.
我相信大约有五七个用户名是真正可恨的、真正贬义的、真正令人讨厌的。
Calling me a pervert, making me out like I was a child molester, making me out like I was some kind of big drug user.
称我为变态，让我看起来像一个儿童猥亵者，让我看起来像是某种吸毒者。
You know, just total filth.
你知道，完全是肮脏的。
Someone with the user name Calvin asked, does anyone know the last name of Gene, the boyfriend hairstylist?
有用户名为Calvin的人问，有谁知道男友发型师Gene的姓氏吗？
I'm worried, because Gene is making his way down to Florida to meet with Paulette's side of the family.
我很担心，因为吉恩正前往佛罗里达州与宝莱特的家人会面。
I'm truly fearful that this is not the end of this tragedy.
我真的很担心这场悲剧还没有结束。
Someone named Mouth then said, keep that creep away from the children.
一个名叫嘴的人接着说，让那个怪物远离孩子们。
He is trouble.
他就是个麻烦。
What would you do if the perv was chasing your grandchildren?
如果变态追你的孙子，你会怎么做？
Calvin thanked Mouth for the warning.
卡尔文感谢莫斯的警告。
And then someone who called himself Bugs added, Gene is not a nice guy.
然后一个自称巴克斯的人补充道，吉恩不是一个好人。
He cheated on his first wife.
他欺骗了他的第一任妻子。
I know Paulette and Gene well, and they were both sickening out in public, kissing all over one another.
我很了解波莱特和吉恩，他们都在公共场合生病了，互相亲吻。
It continued on like this.
就这样继续下去。
People accused him of every kind of character flaw you could imagine, of getting fired from every job he had, of being a liar, a drunk.
人们指责他有各种你能想象到的性格缺陷，指责他被解雇，指责他是一个骗子，一个酒鬼。
And I mean, to make accusations like that?
我的意思是，做出这样的指控？
I was wondering who the hell it was.
我想知道这到底是谁。
Did you have any guesses?
你有什么猜测吗？
Gene Cooley I had no idea who it could be.
吉恩·库利 我不知道他是谁。
I've never been on a website like that.
我从来没有上过这样的网站。
I don't really use a computer that much.
我其实不太用电脑。
That's a huge understatement.
这是一个非常轻描淡写的说法。
Gene didn't know what YouTube was, until I explained it to him.
吉恩不知道 YouTube 是什么，直到我向他解释。
It might not seem like a big deal that a couple of idiots are gossiping about you on the internet.
几个白痴在互联网上八卦你，这似乎没什么大不了的。
But in a small town, it's different.
但在小镇里，情况就不一样了。
You almost definitely know the people who wrote these things about you.
你几乎肯定认识那些写下这些关于你的事情的人。
And you know, the moment you walk outside your house, everyone you see has read it and is talking about it.
你知道，当你走出家门的那一刻，你看到的每个人都读过它并正在谈论它。
Because in Blairsville, news travels fast.
因为在布莱尔斯维尔，新闻传播得很快。
As a matter of fact, you being here for just a couple of hours before we met, I could almost tell you where you've been and what you even had for lunch.
事实上，在我们见面之前你只在这里呆了几个小时，我几乎可以告诉你你去过哪里，甚至午餐吃了什么。
What do you mean?
你是什么意思？
Like, just by asking other people?
就像，只是问别人？
You remember when you called me and said that you were about to have lunch?
你还记得你打电话给我说你要吃午饭吗？
I'd already had two people call, and say, hey, did you know that there's a reporter over here in town?
已经有两个人打电话给我，说，嘿，你知道镇上有一个记者吗？
I didn't talk to anybody.
我没有和任何人说话。
Stephanie Foo Maybe somebody who was eating at the restaurant?
Stephanie Foo 也许有人在餐厅吃饭？
That's a big possibility.
这是一个很大的可能性。
Stephanie Foo When I walked into the restaurant Gene was talking about, I had noticed that everyone turned and gave me the side eye.
Stephanie Foo 当我走进吉恩所说的那家餐厅时，我注意到每个人都转过头来看着我。
The big guys in hunting gear in the back, the tiny neat woman in the front.
后面是穿着狩猎装备的大个子，前面是身材娇小、整洁的女人。
I sat there awkwardly, wondering whether it was because I was the only Chinese person in town.
我尴尬地坐在那里，想知道是否因为我是镇上唯一的中国人。
When the waitress came up and asked me for my order, the restaurant went silent to hear what it was.
当女服务员走过来问我要点什么时，餐厅鸦雀无声，想听听点什么。
And this sort of talk, it's mostly harmless.
这种谈话大多是无害的。
But when Topix came onto the scene, it took gossip between friends, gossip that people would ordinarily recognize as just gossip, and made it into something more serious.
但当 Topix 出现时，它把朋友之间的八卦，人们通常认为只是八卦的八卦，变成了更严肃的事情。
This is Mark Cox.
这是马克·考克斯。
He's a friend of Gene's.
他是吉恩的朋友。
He owns the hole-in-the-wall diner in town.
他在镇上拥有一家简陋的餐馆。
You could tell somebody something and they'll kind of believe you.
你可以告诉别人一些事情，他们会相信你。
But if they see it in writing, they're going to believe it.
但如果他们看到书面内容，他们就会相信。
Once you write it down, it's not gossip anymore.
一旦写下来，就不再是闲话了。
You know, that becomes truth for what people are concerned with.
你知道，这成为人们关心的事情的真相。
Other people told me the same thing.
其他人也告诉我同样的事情。
Like this woman I met in town.
就像我在城里遇到的这个女人一样。
She'd heard a friend gossiping about Gene, saying that he was a pervert, a child molester.
她听到一个朋友在八卦吉恩，说他是个变态，是一个儿童猥亵者。
She thought, yeah, right.
她想，是啊，没错。
I remember.
我记得。
I mean, I can remember back things being said and I just brush it off and go on.
我的意思是，我记得说过的话，然后我就把它抛在脑后，继续说下去。
But when it's written there, and for anybody, I mean, and if it's on the web, then you kind of like, oh my gosh, is this true?
但当它写在那里，对于任何人，我的意思是，如果它在网络上，那么你会有点像，哦，天哪，这是真的吗？
Could this happen, you know?
这会发生吗，你知道吗？
It puts that seed of doubt in your head.
它会在你的脑海中播下怀疑的种子。
Of course.
当然。
Gene did manage to calm his fiancee's parents down.
吉恩确实设法让未婚妻的父母平静下来。
But he was happy to go back home to Blairsville.
但他很高兴回到布莱尔斯维尔的家。
He'd lived there for 16 years at that point, knew everybody.
那时他已经在那里住了16年，认识所有人。
So when he got back, he was floored by the way people were suddenly treating him.
因此，当他回来时，人们突然对待他的方式让他感到震惊。
Like, as if everything online was true.
就像，好像网上的一切都是真的。
OK, there was a gentleman that he and I used to pal around a little bit.
好吧，有一位绅士，他和我曾经是朋友。
Our children used to play together.
我们的孩子曾经一起玩耍。
I walked into a local convenience store and acknowledged him, told him hi.
我走进当地一家便利店，向他打招呼，并向他打招呼。
And he looked down at that point in time and just walked on out of the convenience store, got in his car and left.
那时他低下头，径直走出便利店，上车离开。
Or there was a guy he'd known for a while, who he ran into at a park.
或者他在公园里遇到了一个他已经认识了一段时间的人。
I just tried to have a little conversation with him.
我只是想和他聊聊。
And he just told me pretty much get the F-word out of here.
他只是告诉我别再骂脏话了。
Get your perverted ass away from the kids.
让你变态的屁股远离孩子们。
So I didn't know what to do at that point in time.
所以我当时不知道该怎么办。
I just left the-- I just had to go.
我刚刚离开——我必须离开。
I mean, the feeling was atrocious.
我的意思是，这种感觉很糟糕。
I felt like I was a ghost.
我感觉自己就像是一个幽灵。
When your friends aren't talking to you, when people aren't even looking at you, I mean, it's at your bottom's end, right there.
当你的朋友不跟你说话时，当人们甚至不看你时，我的意思是，它就在你的最底端，就在那里。
I mean, you feel worse than the manure laying on the damn ground.
我的意思是，你的感觉比该死的地上的粪便还要糟糕。
Because people at least step in manure, but they want to walk around you like crazy.
因为人至少踩粪，却想疯狂地在你身边走来走去。
Gene tried to get back to work at his hair salon, but all his clients canceled their appointments.
吉恩试图回到他的美发沙龙工作，但他所有的客户都取消了预约。
Here's Gene's boss, Tony Smelt.
这是吉恩的老板托尼·斯梅尔特。
There were rumors going around that Gene may have done some drugs in his past, and that we were supplying him, and that my wife and I were drug-dealing pagans.
有传言说吉恩过去可能吸过一些毒品，我们向他提供毒品，而我和我的妻子是贩毒的异教徒。
I don't know where the information came from.
我不知道这些信息是从哪里来的。
I mean, we just certainly don't do drugs, and we're not pagans.
我的意思是，我们当然不吸毒，而且我们也不是异教徒。
We eat organic food, so--
我们吃有机食品，所以——
Tony is obviously not a local.
托尼显然不是当地人。
He's from England.
他来自英国。
And he was new to town at that point.
那时他刚进城。
His business had only been around a year, and he couldn't afford trouble.
他的生意才一年左右，他惹不起。
Tony said people had even called the salon, asking if Gene was there, and saying they wouldn't come in anymore if he was.
托尼说，人们甚至给沙龙打电话，询问吉恩是否在那里，并说如果他在的话，他们就不会再进来了。
One woman said she was afraid that Gene might shoot her.
一名妇女说，她担心吉恩可能会开枪射杀她。
So Tony asked Gene not to come into work anymore.
所以托尼要求吉恩不要再上班了。
Topix is like a virus.
Topix 就像一种病毒。
People are scared of that website.
人们害怕那个网站。
I am, that's for sure.
我是，这是肯定的。
Gene couldn't find another job in town.
吉恩在城里找不到其他工作。
2 and 1/2 months after his fiancee's death, he decided he'd had enough.
未婚妻去世后 2 又 1/2 个月，他觉得自己受够了。
Gene packed up to move to Augusta, 3 and 1/2 hours away.
吉恩收拾行李准备搬到距离奥古斯塔 3 又 1/2 小时的地方。
But he made one last stop on the way out of town, the office of Russell Stookey.
但他在出城的路上最后一站是拉塞尔·斯托基的办公室。
Hi, Mr. Stookey.
嗨，斯托基先生。
Russell Stookey Hi, are you Jennifer?
拉塞尔·斯托基 嗨，你是詹妮弗吗？
Stephanie.
斯蒂芬妮。
Russell Stookey Stephanie, I'm sorry.
拉塞尔·斯托基·斯蒂芬妮，对不起。
Close enough.
足够接近。
Russell Stookey Come on.
拉塞尔·斯托基 加油。
You're the first China lady I've ever met.
你是我见过的第一个中国女士。
OK.
好的。
Russell's a sweet guy.
拉塞尔是个可爱的人。
But he does say exactly what's on his mind, which actually made him the perfect man to take Gene's case, because when Russell heard Gene's story, he despised the whole idea of anonymous posters.
但他确实说出了自己的想法，这实际上使他成为接手吉恩案件的最佳人选，因为当拉塞尔听到吉恩的故事时，他鄙视匿名发帖的整个想法。
And all he wanted to do is give them hell.
他只想让他们见鬼去吧。
They have no character.
他们没有性格。
That means they have no guts.
这说明他们没有这个胆量。
They have no guts, no character.
他们没有胆量，没有性格。
They lack courage, no balls at all.
他们缺乏勇气，根本没有胆量。
(WHISPERED) Should I say balls?
（低声）我应该说球吗？
Anyway, I'm old school.
无论如何，我是老派。
If I've got something to say, I'll say it to your damn face.
如果我有什么话要说，我会当着你的面说的。
[GUFFAWS] That's just the way it is.
[咕咕] 事情就是这样。
You see these scars on my face?
你看到我脸上的这些伤疤了吗？
A lot of times, people don't like that.
很多时候，人们不喜欢这样。
And they'll punch you.
他们会打你。
But that's their opportunity.
但这是他们的机会。
And that's the way you do business in this life.
这就是你今生做生意的方式。
You say it to their face.
你当着他们的面说。
The case was tricky.
案件很棘手。
Topix isn't liable for what its users post.
Topix 对其用户发布的内容不承担任何责任。
And they wouldn't tell Russell the true identities of the posters.
他们不会告诉拉塞尔海报的真实身份。
It took a year and a half, but eventually a case in Texas went through.
花了一年半的时间，德克萨斯州的一个案件最终得以审理。
A federal judge ruled that Topix had to give up the true identities of any slanderous posters.
一名联邦法官裁定 Topix 必须放弃任何诽谤性海报的真实身份。
So Russell used that ruling to find out who the anonymous posters really were.
因此，拉塞尔利用这一裁决来查明匿名发帖者的真实身份。
And what he found shocked him.
他的发现令他震惊。
The nastiest posters were actually just one person.
最恶心的海报实际上只是一个人。
Calvin, Mouth, Bugs, who were all going back and forth on Topix, talking about Gene and thanking each other for their warnings about him-- they were all the same woman, a woman who had gone to the trouble of making multiple accounts and then having fake conversations between those accounts.
Calvin、Mouth、Bugs，他们都在 Topix 上来来回回，谈论吉恩，并感谢彼此对他的警告——他们都是同一个女人，一个不厌其烦地创建多个账户，然后在这些账户之间进行虚假对话的女人。
Her name was Sybil Denise Ballew.
她的名字叫西比尔·丹尼斯·巴卢。
And when Gene heard her name--
当吉恩听到她的名字时——
I had no idea who it was.
我不知道那是谁。
Stephanie Foo Gene was totally baffled.
斯蒂芬妮·福·吉恩 (Stephanie Foo Gene) 完全困惑不已。
It wasn't until much later that he learned that over 10 years ago, he and Sybil Ballew had both worked at a department store in town called Alexander's.
直到很久以后，他才得知，十多年前，他和西比尔·巴卢都曾在镇上一家名叫亚历山大的百货公司工作过。
Most people in town call it the Hillbilly Walmart, though it's more like a general store.
城里的大多数人都称其为“乡巴佬沃尔玛”，尽管它更像是一家杂货店。
Gene says he only worked there for three months, mostly in the warehouse.
吉恩说他只在那里工作了三个月，大部分时间是在仓库里。
He barely remembers it.
他几乎不记得了。
But Sybil says she remembers him perfectly.
但西比尔说她清楚地记得他。
I don't like the way he looked at the younger girls in staff where we worked together.
我不喜欢他看待我们一起工作的员工中年轻女孩的方式。
Looking them up and down, lusty look.
上下打量着他们，一副充满活力的样子。
You know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
There's a difference in looking, and there is a difference in (ELONGATING) "looooking."
看起来有区别，（拉长）“看”也有区别。
Sybil talked to me on the phone.
西比尔通过电话与我交谈。
She refused to see me when I was in Blairsville.
当我在布莱尔斯维尔时，她拒绝见我。
And to this day, she believes Gene had it coming.
直到今天，她相信吉恩已经实现了这一目标。
He's the reason the woman's dead.
他就是那个女人的死因。
He is the very reason that woman is dead.
他就是那个女人死去的原因。
He knew how her (EMPHASIS) "husband" was.
他知道她（强调）的“丈夫”是什么样的。
But yet, he kept doing what he was doing.
但尽管如此，他仍然继续做他正在做的事情。
He'd come in there with her on numerous times.
他和她一起来过那里很多次。
Sit in the corner, and that woman couldn't even eat for him pawing at her, being gross.
坐在角落里，那个女人连饭都吃不了，他还用爪子抓她，太恶心了。
You know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
You don't do stuff like that out in public, for God's sake.
看在上帝的份上，你不能在公共场合做这样的事情。
People went back and told the ex-husband to get the ex-husband riled up and disturbed enough about it to kill the woman.
人们回去告诉前夫，让前夫激怒、不安，杀死那个女人。
What business is it of yours, though?
不过这关你什么事呢？
I mean, it seems like you're making a lot of assumptions.
我的意思是，你似乎做了很多假设。
Did you not understand or listen to what I said?
我说的话你没听懂或者听不懂吗？
He brought it upon himself in my opinion.
在我看来，这是他自己造成的。
[SCOFFS] Am I proud of what I did?
[SCOFFS] 我为自己所做的事情感到自豪吗？
I'm proud of standing up for what I believe in, for what I know.
我为坚持我的信仰和我所知道的事情而感到自豪。
I'm proud of telling the truth.
我为说出真相而感到自豪。
Gene sued Sybil Ballew for libel and defamation of character.
吉恩以诽谤和人格诽谤罪起诉西比尔·巴卢。
Again, here's Gene's lawyer, Russell Stookey.
吉恩的律师拉塞尔·斯托基（Russell Stookey）再次发言。
So I had Mrs. Ballew on the stand.
所以我让巴卢夫人出庭作证。
And to show what kind of legal scholar she is, I said-- she kept telling us about the First Amendment protected her.
为了表明她是一位什么样的法律学者，我说——她一直告诉我们第一修正案保护她。
And I said, Ms. Ballew, you mentioned the First Amendment.
我说，巴卢女士，您提到了第一修正案。
Do you know what the First Amendment says?
你知道第一修正案说什么吗？
What is the first word in the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America?
美利坚合众国宪法第一修正案的第一个词是什么？
She didn't know that.
她不知道这一点。
Here's a flash for you, morons.
这是给你们的闪光点，白痴。
The First Amendment does not cover all speech.
第一修正案并不涵盖所有言论。
Defamation is not ever protected speech.
诽谤从来都不是受保护的言论。
Russell's right.
拉塞尔是对的。
Libel is against the law.
诽谤是违法的。
And if the lies hurt the victim financially, that person is entitled to receive payback.
如果谎言给受害者带来经济损失，那么该人有权获得回报。
The jury ruled that Sybil Denise Ballew owed Gene $404,000, with $250,000 in punitive damages.
陪审团裁定 Sybil Denise Ballew 欠 Gene 404,000 美元，其中包括 250,000 美元的惩罚性赔偿金。
It was the first successful lawsuit lodged against an anonymous Topix poster.
这是针对匿名 Topix 发帖人提起的第一起成功诉讼。
[EXHALES] God almighty.
[呼气]全能的上帝。
He went home that night, feeling like a man.
那天晚上他回家了，感觉自己像个男人了。
It wasn't a complete triumph.
这并不是一次彻底的胜利。
The case was expensive, and Gene will probably never see any sort of reimbursement for that.
这个案子很昂贵，吉恩可能永远不会得到任何形式的报销。
To this day, Sybil has not paid any of the $404,000 to Gene.
迄今为止，Sybil 尚未向 Gene 支付 404,000 美元中的任何一部分。
Russell says she just does not have that kind of money.
拉塞尔说她只是没有那么多钱。
But Gene got what was most important to him.
但吉恩得到了对他来说最重要的东西。
He moved back to Blairsville after the case, back to his family, his friends, his kids.
案件发生后，他搬回布莱尔斯维尔，回到家人、朋友和孩子身边。
And, of course, everyone had heard about the verdict by the time he got back.
当然，当他回来时，每个人都已经听说了判决结果。
And people started talking to him again like nothing had happened, like that guy in the convenience store, the guy who walked out when Gene tried to talk to him?
人们又开始和他说话，就像什么都没发生一样，就像便利店里的那个人，当吉恩试图和他说话时走出去的那个人？
I saw him the other day at a convenience store.
前几天我在一家便利店见到了他。
And he greeted me.
他向我打招呼。
Hi Gene, how are you doing?
嗨，吉恩，你好吗？
It's good seeing you.
很高兴见到你。
We shook hands, and I'll talk to you later.
我们握了握手，稍后我再和你谈谈。
I'll see you around.
我会再见的。
You must have some sort of feeling like, oh, now you want to talk to me?
你一定有某种感觉，哦，现在你想和我说话吗？
Yes.
是的。
[RUEFUL LAUGH] Yeah, that is kind of how I did feel, to be honest with you.
[苦笑] 是的，老实说，这就是我的感受。
I see everybody a lot differently now that I've been through all this.
既然我经历了这一切，我对每个人的看法都有很大不同。
I just look at different people more cautious, instead of letting them into my life, letting them into my heart.
我只是更加谨慎地看待不同的人，而不是让他们进入我的生活，让他们进入我的内心。
I never thought that people could be so cruel.
我从来没想过人可以这么残忍。
I asked around town to see if stories like Gene's were common.
我在镇上到处打听，看看像吉恩这样的故事是否常见。
And almost everyone knew someone who'd been hurt by posts on Topix.
几乎每个人都认识因 Topix 上的帖子而受到伤害的人。
One woman told me that someone wrote a post saying her coworker was having an affair.
一位女士告诉我，有人发了一篇帖子，说她的同事有外遇。
She said her co-worker's marriage fell apart because of it.
她说她同事的婚姻因此破裂。
And her kids were teased at school.
她的孩子们在学校也被嘲笑。
Another said her husband was slandered, which hurt the family business.
另一位则表示，她的丈夫受到诽谤，这损害了家族生意。
But after Gene's case, after people found out they could sue for slander, lots of people started to call up lawyers.
但在吉恩案发生后，当人们发现他们可以起诉诽谤后，很多人开始打电话给律师。
Russell Stookey says he probably gets a call every month.
拉塞尔·斯托基 (Russell Stookey) 说他可能每个月都会接到电话。
Normally, you're talking about bored housewives who are just gossip-mongers, basically.
通常，你谈论的是无聊的家庭主妇，她们基本上只是八卦者。
But it is an epidemic.
但这是一种流行病。
I have caught lawyers.
我已经抓到律师了。
I caught a judge.
我抓住了一个法官。
I've caught doctors, a dentist, a state representative.
我抓过医生、牙医、州代表。
I found out in a heartbeat who these people were.
我立刻就知道这些人是谁了。
I sued them.
我起诉了他们。
And you ought to hear them scream and cry.
你应该听到他们的尖叫和哭泣。
Let me go.
让我走吧。
Let me out of this.
让我摆脱这个。
You did it.
你做到了。
If you go on to Blairsville's Topix page today, there are only a dozen or so regular posters left.
如果你今天访问布莱尔斯维尔的 Topix 页面，就会发现只剩下十几张常规海报。
It's considered an embarrassment now.
现在想想都觉得很尴尬。
And nobody really reads the gossip anymore.
没有人再真正阅读八卦了。
Or anyway, if they do, nobody wants to admit it.
或者无论如何，如果他们这样做了，没有人愿意承认。
Stephanie Foo is one of the producers of our program.
Stephanie Foo 是我们节目的制作人之一。
Coming up, we move from a story where the internet is causing huge problems in somebody's life to a story where the internet is actually helping somebody solve a huge problem.
接下来，我们将从互联网给某人的生活带来巨大问题的故事转向互联网实际上正在帮助某人解决巨大问题的故事。
That's in a minute.
就在一分钟之内。
From Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续进行时，来自芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台。
Act Two: Help Wanted Ira Glass We've arrived at Act Two of our program.
第二幕：寻求帮助 Ira Glass 我们已经进入了计划的第二幕。
Act Two, Help Wanted.
第二幕，寻求帮助。
So this story is about a group that's pretty universally reviled.
所以这个故事是关于一个普遍受到辱骂的群体的。
I think if there ever was a group that people would want to tar and feather, this would be the group.
我想如果有一个团体是人们想要焦油和羽毛的，那就是这个团体。
And that's pedophiles.
那就是恋童癖。
Though I have to say, before we start, this is not the story you usually hear about pedophiles.
尽管我不得不说，在我们开始之前，这不是你通常听到的关于恋童癖的故事。
Reporter Luke Malone met somebody who has those feelings for young children and definitely does not want to act on them, and has to cobble together his own way to deal with the problem which raises the question is there a way to treat pedophiles.
记者卢克·马龙遇到了一个对小孩子有这种感觉的人，他绝对不想对他们采取行动，他必须自己拼凑出自己的方法来处理这个问题，这就提出了一个问题：是否有一种方法可以治疗恋童癖。
Could there be a way to treat pedophiles?
有没有办法治疗恋童癖？
A warning, before we start, this story is definitely not for kids.
在我们开始之前警告一下，这个故事绝对不适合孩子。
Most of the names have been changed and two of the people in this story have asked to have their voices altered.
大多数名字都被更改了，故事中的两个人要求改变他们的声音。
Also, though there's nothing graphic in this story at all, victims of child sexual abuse should consider this a trigger warning.
此外，尽管这个故事根本没有任何生动的内容，但儿童性虐待的受害者应该将此视为触发警告。
Everybody else, I will say, I have never heard anybody talk about these issues the way that the people in this story talk about them.
我会说，其他人，我从未听过任何人像这个故事中的人们那样谈论这些问题。
I feel like I came out of hearing this story understanding something I really did not know before.
我觉得我听了这个故事后明白了一些我以前不知道的事情。
So here's Luke Malone.
这是卢克·马龙。
My interest in pedophiles began in the wake of the Jerry Sandusky trial.
我对恋童癖的兴趣是在杰里·桑达斯基审判之后开始的。
He had just been sentenced on 45 counts related to child sex abuse.
他刚刚因 45 项与儿童性虐待有关的罪名被判刑。
It got me thinking about how all this starts and if there's a way to prevent it.
这让我思考这一切是如何开始的以及是否有办法阻止它。
I mean, Sandusky wasn't born a 68-year-old child molester.
我的意思是，68 岁的桑达斯基并不是天生的猥亵儿童者。
How old are pedophiles when they start thinking about kids this way?
恋童癖者多大年纪才会开始这样考虑孩子？
Do they ever want to do something to stop themselves?
他们是否曾经想做一些事情来阻止自己？
And if they do, who can they turn to?
如果他们这样做了，他们可以向谁求助？
I spoke to experts and dug around online.
我与专家交谈并在网上进行了调查。
I came across a site, a group of people who acknowledged their attraction, but want help dealing with it.
我发现了一个网站，一群人承认自己的吸引力，但需要帮助来处理它。
Most of the men I spoke with first noticed an interest in children when they were about 13 or 14.
与我交谈的大多数男性在 13 岁或 14 岁左右第一次注意到对孩子的兴趣。
I had no idea.
我不知道。
I asked how they reacted when they first knew something was up.
我问他们第一次知道出事时有何反应。
For most of them, this was going back 40 or 50 years.
对于他们中的大多数人来说，这已经是 40 或 50 年前的事情了。
And I realized that I needed to speak with younger guys, ones who were going through this right now.
我意识到我需要与年轻人交谈，他们现在正在经历这一切。
I asked the men if they knew anyone like that.
我问他们是否认识这样的人。
And a week or so later, I got an email.
大约一周后，我收到一封电子邮件。
My name is Adam, it read.
我的名字叫亚当，上面写着。
I'm 18, and I'm the leader of a support group for pedophiles around my age.
我今年 18 岁，是一个针对同龄恋童癖者的支持小组的领导者。
I'll be very happy to talk with you.
我会很高兴与你交谈。
Adam is now 19.
亚当现在19岁了。
Just to remind you, Adam isn't his real name.
只是提醒你一下，亚当不是他的真名。
And his voice has been altered to protect his identity.
为了保护他的身份，他的声音被改变了。
But even knowing he'd be anonymous, he was uncomfortable.
但即使知道他会匿名，他还是感到不舒服。
Just don't think I'm a very vulgar person.
只是别以为我是个很庸俗的人。
It's even weird for me to say it out loud.
连我大声说出来都觉得奇怪。
You know, it's something I type, probably 50 times a day, just chatting with some people online, but actually saying it out loud is not very easy for me.
你知道，我每天可能会输入 50 次这样的内容，只是与一些人在网上聊天，但实际上大声说出来对我来说并不容易。
Uh, yes.
呃，是的。
Luke Malone And have you ever acted on your attraction?
卢克·马龙 你有没有根据自己的吸引力采取行动？
No. Luke Malone Here's the first of many distinctions, I wasn't clear on when I first met Adam.
不。卢克·马龙 这是众多区别中的第一个，当我第一次见到亚当时我并不清楚。
And it's an important one to make.
这是一件很重要的事情。
Technically, you don't have to act on your desires to be a pedophile.
从技术上讲，你不必按照自己的愿望去做恋童癖。
Pedophilia marks the attraction, not the behavior.
恋童癖标志着吸引力，而不是行为。
Adam doesn't want to act on his attractions.
亚当不想根据他的吸引力采取行动。
Adam is self-diagnosed, as is everyone in his online support group.
亚当进行了自我诊断，他的在线支持小组中的每个人也是如此。
They go by the medical definition of pedophilia found in the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, basically the Bible of the American Psychiatric Association, which says that in order to be a pedophile, you have to harbor sexual fantasies about or engage sexually with a prepubescent child for six months or more, and you have to be 16 or above and more than five years older than the child.
他们遵循《精神疾病诊断与统计手册》（DSM）中对恋童癖的医学定义，基本上是美国精神病学协会的圣经，其中规定，要成为恋童癖者，你必须对青春期前的孩子怀有性幻想或与青春期前的孩子发生性关系六个月或更长时间，而且你必须年满 16 岁或以上，并且比孩子大 5 岁以上。
You also need to have either acted on these urges, or the fantasies must cause distress or difficulty.
你还需要要么对这些冲动采取行动，要么这些幻想一定会造成痛苦或困难。
Guys like Adam hit puberty and discover they're attracted to little kids.
像亚当这样的人进入青春期后发现他们被小孩子所吸引。
And what's remarkable is that they have to navigate that all on their own, with no frame of reference.
值得注意的是，他们必须在没有参考框架的情况下独自应对这一切。
Everything they're going through, they have to figure out for themselves at, like, 11.
他们正在经历的一切，他们必须在11点左右自己解决。
I was surprised when Adam first told me the specifics of his attraction.
当亚当第一次告诉我他的吸引力的具体细节时，我感到很惊讶。
It was hard to relate to, and so you're prepared, difficult to hear.
这很难产生共鸣，所以你要做好准备，很难听到。
He's most attracted to kids between the ages of eight and three.
他最喜欢八到三岁的孩子。
He was 14 when he started watching porn, porn involving children.
他14岁时开始观看色情片，涉及儿童的色情片。
For privacy, he found a way to connect an old computer that he had in his room.
为了保护隐私，他找到了一种方法来连接他房间里的一台旧电脑。
Before long, he was downloading it on a daily basis.
不久之后，他就每天都下载它。
He couldn't believe how easy it was.
他简直不敢相信这有多么容易。
It was exhilarating.
真是令人兴奋。
That's the most accurate thing I could say about it.
这是我能说的最准确的话。
I think for people who are listening to this show, when they hear that, it's going to be kind of hard for them to understand what you're feeling.
我认为对于正在听这个节目的人来说，当他们听到这个消息时，他们会很难理解你的感受。
And I really want them to.
我真的希望他们这么做。
So can you tell me, did you have any concerns for the kid in the videos at this time?
那么您能告诉我，您此时对视频中的孩子有任何担心吗？
Did it occur that someone else was abusing them by making these videos?
是否有其他人通过制作这些视频来虐待他们？
No. First off, the first child pornography I came across I don't think it even involved adults.
不。首先，我遇到的第一个儿童色情制品我认为它甚至不涉及成年人。
What I thought as, I'd like to do these types of things.
我的想法是，我想做这些类型的事情。
So it's great that I can watch other people who are closer to my age range do these types of things.
所以很高兴我能看到其他与我年龄相近的人做这些事情。
I just see two kids doing something that I fantasized about doing.
我只是看到两个孩子在做一些我想做的事情。
So, you know, I'm one of the kids.
所以，你知道，我是孩子之一。
Remember, he was 14.
请记住，他当时14岁。
Adam And it was a little while later, as I started watching this stuff more and more, when I kind of realized that I was getting older, and it wasn't some phase I was going through, but the children I was interested in weren't getting older, you know, to follow along with me, but they were actually getting younger.
亚当 过了一会儿，当我开始越来越多地观看这些东西时，我意识到我正在变老，这并不是我正在经历的某个阶段，但我感兴趣的孩子并没有跟着我变老，你知道，他们实际上正在变年轻。
Did it strike you as wrong?
你觉得这是错误的吗？
Adam At that age, no. I knew it was illegal.
亚当 在那个年纪，没有。我知道这是非法的。
I knew it was considered wrong.
我知道这被认为是错误的。
But I did not know why it was considered wrong.
但我不知道为什么它被认为是错误的。
I figured it was something that wasn't allowed.
我认为这是不允许的事情。
I'd been using it for two years, before I started to think these children are real people.
在我开始认为这些孩子是真实的人之前，我已经使用它两年了。
And they could potentially be hurt with this.
他们可能会因此受到伤害。
The way Adam figured it out was particularly brutal.
亚当的解决办法尤其残酷。
He was 16, and he came across a video he wanted to unsee.
16 岁那年，他看到了一段他不想再看的视频。
There's no easy way to say this.
没有简单的方法可以这么说。
It involved a very small child.
它涉及一个很小的孩子。
An 18-month-old.
18个月大的孩子。
I remember thinking that I wanted to reach through the computer screen and kill the person.
我记得当时我想伸手穿过电脑屏幕杀死那个人。
I was just so horrified at what I saw.
我对所看到的感到非常震惊。
At that point, I knew something was really wrong.
那时，我知道事情真的出了问题。
He began reading up on child abuse and was upset at what he learned.
他开始阅读有关虐待儿童的资料，并对所学到的内容感到不安。
He decided he wanted to stop watching child porn, and he needed help if he was going to do that.
他决定不再观看儿童色情片，如果他打算这样做，他需要帮助。
For that help, Adam turned back to the internet.
为了寻求帮助，亚当又转向互联网。
He posted on a mental health forum, explaining his situation and asking for advice.
他在心理健康论坛上发帖，解释了自己的情况并寻求建议。
Two women who were child abuse survivors befriended him.
两名虐待儿童幸存者的妇女与他成为了朋友。
With their help, Adam says he stopped watching porn.
在他们的帮助下，亚当说他不再看色情片了。
But in its place grew a deep depression.
但取而代之的是深深的抑郁。
It wasn't like he'd stopped having sexual thoughts about kids.
他并没有停止对孩子的性想法。
He says he felt like a monster for having viewed the videos, but also just for having the attractions.
他说，在观看这些视频时，他感觉自己像个怪物，但也只是因为其中的吸引力。
Some days, he thought about killing himself.
有几天，他想过自杀。
He didn't know what else to do.
他不知道还能做什么。
He was 16.
他16岁。
He wanted to talk to someone.
他想和某人谈谈。
So he started with a cautious letter to his mum.
因此，他首先给妈妈写了一封谨慎的信。
Dear Mummy, it begins, I'm writing this letter to you, as I cannot bring myself to say what I need to say to you to your face.
亲爱的妈妈，首先，我写这封信给您，是因为我无法当着您的面说出我需要对您说的话。
It would simply be too painful for me.
这对我来说太痛苦了。
I am always overshadowed with feelings of depression, guilt, and shame.
我总是被抑郁、内疚和羞耻的感觉所笼罩。
I'm really sick and tired of covering these feelings up.
我真的厌倦了掩盖这些感受。
I want you to let me see a psychologist.
我想让你让我去看心理医生。
I understand you probably have a lot to ask me.
我知道您可能有很多问题要问我。
But I need some time to get my head wrapped around things.
但我需要一些时间来理清思路。
Love, Adam.
爱，亚当。
He didn't explain the source of the problem, and his mother never asked.
他没有解释问题的根源，他的母亲也没有问过。
Instead, she made him an appointment at a local therapist for a week or so later.
相反，她为他预约了一周左右的当地治疗师。
I remember it was a Friday morning, very early in the day.
我记得那是一个星期五的早晨，天还很早。
I was her first patient.
我是她的第一个病人。
We got there, even before she got there.
我们甚至在她到达之前就到达了那里。
And I was just very nervous.
我只是非常紧张。
I knew exactly what was coming.
我清楚地知道接下来会发生什么。
I'd known for so long that I was going to walk in there and what I was going to say.
我很早就知道我会走进那里，知道我要说的话。
And I'd rehearsed it in my head.
我已经在心里排练过了。
And what was the script you'd been playing over and over in your head?
你脑子里一遍又一遍地播放的剧本是什么？
I'm a pedophile, and I'm addicted to child pornography.
我是一个恋童癖者，并且对儿童色情制品上瘾。
And I remember I walked in there, and we started talking.
我记得我走进那里，我们开始交谈。
And then she kind of said, so what are you here for?
然后她就说，那你来这里干什么？
And I said, well, I'm very anxious.
我说，好吧，我很着急。
And she said, well, why are you anxious?
她说，好吧，你为什么焦虑？
And my heart was beating.
我的心在跳动。
I'd never been so terrified in my life.
我一生中从未如此害怕过。
But I uttered the words.
但我说出了这句话。
I said, well, this is difficult to say, but I'm a pedophile, and I'm addicted to child pornography.
我说，好吧，这很难说，但我是一个恋童癖者，而且我沉迷于儿童色情内容。
And I saw kind of a look of horror on her face, and she asked me to repeat that.
我看到她脸上有一种恐惧的表情，她让我再说一遍。
She must have thought that she misheard me for something like that.
她一定以为她听错了我的话。
But I repeated it.
但我又重复了一遍。
Then, immediately, she went from being this very nice, gentle person to very harsh and critical.
然后，她立刻从一个非常友善、温柔的人变成了一个非常严厉和挑剔的人。
What did she say to you?
她对你说了什么？
Adam Well, she raised her voice, telling me this isn't OK.
亚当 好吧，她提高了声音，告诉我这不行。
And we talked about it a bit.
我们对此进行了一些讨论。
I mentioned that at that point, I'd been, I think, 11 weeks clean of child pornography.
我提到，那时我想我已经 11 周没有接触过儿童色情内容了。
But I was terrified the whole time.
但我一直很害怕。
And I remember she tried talking with me about why I have these attractions.
我记得她试图和我谈论为什么我有这些吸引力。
And she was obviously convinced that I had trouble talking with people my own age, so I felt less judged by younger kids, and that's why I was interested in them.
她显然确信我很难与同龄的人交谈，所以我觉得年幼的孩子对我的评判较少，这就是我对他们感兴趣的原因。
And that's apparently a very common thing for therapists who aren't at all trained in this area to think.
对于没有接受过该领域思考培训的治疗师来说，这显然是很常见的事情。
So she didn't even believe that you were a pedophile.
所以她根本就不相信你是恋童癖
Just that you couldn't kind of make it with kids your own age, essentially, yeah?
只是你基本上无法和同龄的孩子相处，是吗？
Is that what you're saying?
你是这么说的吗？
Yes, yes.
是的，是的。
Luke Malone And what did you say to her in response?
卢克·马龙 你对她说了什么回应？
Oh, well, I disagreed.
哦，好吧，我不同意。
I said, no, I really firmly believe that's not the case.
我说，不，我真的坚信不是这样的。
I know what I'm attracted to.
我知道我被什么吸引。
And it's not like I'm-- I had friends.
而且我也没有朋友。
It's not like I didn't have a single friend.
我又不是没有一个朋友。
I said, look, these attractions are more intense than they are towards any adult I've ever met or seen.
我说，看，这些吸引力比我见过或见过的任何成年人都更强烈。
And I'm really confident that it's not just being scared to talk to people my own age.
我非常有信心，这不仅仅是害怕与同龄人交谈。
Was it kind of weird or frustrating kind of disclosing this massive thing about yourself and then having to kind of just really drive it on home and prove it to her?
披露关于你自己的这么大的事情，然后不得不真的把它开回家并向她证明这一点，是不是有点奇怪或令人沮丧？
Yeah, it was definitely-- it was annoying.
是的，这绝对是——这很烦人。
But I'll tell you the feeling that overcame me most the whole time was that I was being judged.
但我会告诉你，一直以来，最让我难以忘怀的感觉就是我受到了评判。
That's definitely what I felt most when I left later.
这绝对是我后来离开时感受最深的。
I considered writing an email to her, apologizing for dropping such a bombshell on her.
我考虑给她写一封电子邮件，为向她发出如此重磅炸弹表示歉意。
And I saw her again.
我又见到了她。
And what happened in that second session?
第二次会议中发生了什么？
So she was a little calmer.
所以她心里稍微平静了一些。
She'd obviously had some time to think about it.
她显然有时间考虑这个问题。
She basically told me, pretty much instantly, that she couldn't help me.
她基本上立即告诉我，她帮不了我。
And she said that she'd looked around, but she couldn't really find much.
她说她环顾四周，但并没有找到太多东西。
And then within a few minutes, she asks, how I'd feel if she told my mother about what was going on.
几分钟后，她问，如果她告诉我妈妈发生了什么事，我会有什么感觉。
So first, my heart obviously started beating much faster, and I became incredibly anxious.
首先，我的心跳明显加快，我变得非常焦虑。
And I said, I really don't want to do that.
我说，我真的不想这样做。
So she left the room for a minute, and then came back in with my mother.
于是她离开了房间一分钟，然后和我母亲一起回来了。
And I sat down.
我坐下了。
And the first thing that I recall the therapist saying is we've got a problem.
我记得治疗师说的第一句话就是我们遇到了问题。
This is Adam's mum.
这是亚当的妈妈。
Her voice has also been altered.
她的声音也被改变了。
The therapist looked at me, and I can't remember her exact words, but it was something like--
治疗师看着我，我记不清她具体说了什么，但大概是——
Adam is addicted to pornography.
亚当沉迷于色情作品。
And then she paused for a little bit, and then she said, a very specific type of pornography.
然后她停顿了一下，然后她说，一种非常特殊的色情内容。
Then she said it's child pornography.
然后她说这是儿童色情内容。
And she continued to say that she couldn't see him.
她继续说她看不到他。
We then talked a little bit, not details, about what had been going on.
然后我们就所发生的事情进行了一些讨论，而不是细节。
And Adam did not contribute at all.
而亚当根本没有做出任何贡献。
He sat there just shaking and looking at the floor.
他坐在那儿，只是发抖，看着地板。
And I do remember that she then turned to Adam and said, how do you feel?
我确实记得她然后转向亚当说，你感觉怎么样？
And he said, I feel like I'm going to throw up.
他说，我感觉我要吐了。
You know, my mother, I'm sure, reacted the best I really could have hoped for.
你知道，我确信我母亲的反应是我所希望的最好的。
She kind of put her arm on my shoulder and squeezed a little bit.
她把手臂放在我的肩膀上，轻轻挤压了一下。
She seemed to be supportive.
她似乎很支持。
I'm sure she was in shock, probably kind of horrified, but at least she was able to hide that.
我确信她很震惊，可能有点害怕，但至少她能够隐藏这一点。
And the fact that she was able to do that, it meant so much to me.
她能够做到这一点，这对我来说意义重大。
And I looked at him, although he wouldn't give me eye contact.
我看着他，尽管他没有与我进行目光接触。
I looked at him, and I said, Adam, we're going to help with this.
我看着他，说，亚当，我们会帮忙解决这个问题。
Whatever it is, we can help with it.
无论是什么，我们都可以提供帮助。
And don't worry, I'm with you.
别担心，我和你在一起。
On the car ride home, Adam told her that he wasn't just attracted to children, but also to adults.
在回家的路上，亚当告诉她，他不仅被孩子所吸引，也被成年人所吸引。
You know, and I explained that I'd never done anything to hurt someone before and that I never would do something to hurt someone.
你知道，我解释说我以前从未做过任何伤害别人的事，而且我永远不会做任何伤害别人的事。
When I had moments to be alone afterwards, I was very devastated in realizing the enormity of what we were dealing with.
当我后来有时间独处时，我意识到我们正在处理的事情的严重性，感到非常沮丧。
I was shocked.
我很震惊。
It was the last thing that I could have fathomed that was a problem for him.
我最不可能理解的是，这对他来说是个问题。
There were absolutely no signs.
完全没有任何迹象。
I have no earthly idea how Adam may have developed his attraction to children.
我不知道亚当是如何发展出对孩子的吸引力的。
She and Adam both say he wasn't abused.
她和亚当都说他没有受到虐待。
His home life was stable.
他的家庭生活很稳定。
He had good relationships with his siblings.
他和他的兄弟姐妹关系很好。
Adam's mum did find him a new therapist, one who specialized in porn addiction.
亚当的妈妈确实给他找到了一位新的治疗师，专门治疗色情成瘾。
This one didn't normally treat minors, and he was reluctant to take Adam on.
这家伙一般不会对待未成年人，他也不愿意与亚当较量。
She had to plead with him to accept her son as a client.
她不得不恳求他接受她儿子作为客户。
He eventually agreed.
他最终同意了。
She says until our interview, his two therapists are the only people she's spoken to about Adam's attractions.
她说，在我们接受采访之前，他的两位治疗师是她唯一谈论过亚当的吸引力的人。
She hasn't told a friend, not a therapist of her own, not her husband.
她没有告诉朋友，没有告诉自己的治疗师，也没有告诉她的丈夫。
Right now, if a pedophile shows up in a therapist's office wanting treatment, it puts a therapist in a difficult situation.
现在，如果恋童癖者出现在治疗师的办公室寻求治疗，就会使治疗师陷入困境。
First, there are no guidelines on how to treat pedophiles who haven't offended.
首先，没有关于如何对待未曾冒犯的恋童癖者的指导方针。
There's a lot of confusion in the field about how to handle them.
对于如何处理它们，该领域存在很多困惑。
Also, they're in a tough legal position.
此外，他们的法律地位也很艰难。
If a therapist thinks someone poses a threat to a child, they're legally obligated to turn them in, because of mandatory reporting laws.
如果治疗师认为某人对儿童构成威胁，根据强制性报告法，他们有法律义务将其举报。
They can lose their license if they don't.
如果不这样做，他们可能会失去执照。
So when it comes to counseling a pedophile, therapists have to gauge how likely that person is to act.
因此，在为恋童癖者提供咨询时，治疗师必须衡量该人采取行动的可能性有多大。
They're in a sticky situation where they have to make a judgment call about how dangerous someone is.
他们处于一个棘手的境地，必须对某人的危险程度做出判断。
Professor Elizabeth Letourneau is one of the top researchers on child sexual abuse in the world.
伊丽莎白·莱图诺教授是世界上儿童性虐待领域的顶尖研究人员之一。
She's done this work for 25 years.
她从事这项工作已有25年了。
She says the great thing about mandatory reporting laws are that they've brought to light lots of crimes against children.
她说，强制报告法的好处在于，它们揭露了许多针对儿童的犯罪行为。
But as they got more popular, she saw it affect the number of people reaching out for help.
但随着它们越来越受欢迎，她发现这影响了寻求帮助的人数。
Self-referrals for help really dried up.
自我推荐的帮助确实枯竭了。
And people watched helplines just go silent, because folks are too afraid to reach out for help.
人们看着求助热线变得沉默，因为人们太害怕而不敢寻求帮助。
The consequences are too high.
后果太严重了。
Professor Letourneau is the director of the Moore Center for the Prevention of Child Sexual Abuse at Johns Hopkins University.
莱图诺教授是约翰·霍普金斯大学摩尔预防儿童性虐待中心主任。
And it's with that mandate, the prevention of child sexual abuse, that she's pushing hard for research into people like Adam.
正是为了防止儿童性虐待，她正在大力推动对像亚当这样的人的研究。
Amazingly, there's very little research on pedophilia.
令人惊讶的是，关于恋童癖的研究很少。
We don't know much about the sexuality of adolescents, let alone what might make someone a pedophile.
我们对青少年的性行为知之甚少，更不用说是什么让一个人成为恋童癖者了。
Among things we don't know, we don't know that there's a connection between being abused and developing an attraction to kids.
在我们不知道的事情中，我们不知道被虐待和对孩子产生吸引力之间存在联系。
Crazy, right?
疯了，对吧？
We don't know what's normal, when it comes to the sexual development of children.
当谈到儿童的性发育时，我们不知道什么是正常的。
It might be normal for a 12 year old to be attracted to a six or eight year old.
12 岁的孩子被六岁或八岁的孩子吸引可能很正常。
Another thing that has not been researched in-depth is if having an attraction to kids makes it more dangerous to be around them.
另一件尚未深入研究的事情是，对孩子的吸引力是否会让他们身边变得更加危险。
On its face, it seems obvious.
从表面上看，这似乎是显而易见的。
But there is no evidence to support it.
但没有证据支持这一点。
The research that we do have, and this is from a very small sample size, suggests that pedophiles are more lucky to be shorter, left-handed, and have a lower IQ.
我们所做的研究（样本量非常小）表明，恋童癖者更幸运的是身材矮小、左撇子和智商较低。
Another study says that being knocked unconscious before the age of 13 may be a factor.
另一项研究表明，13 岁之前被打昏可能是一个因素。
It shows just how little we've scratched the surface.
这表明我们只触及了表面。
For years, Letourneau has been trying to change all this, to get money for research, and for prevention programs.
多年来，莱图诺一直在努力改变这一切，为研究和预防项目筹集资金。
But there's not much money for that.
但没有多少钱。
Funders don't want to be associated with pedophilia research.
资助者不想与恋童癖研究扯上关系。
The stigma is too great.
耻辱太大了。
Even someone like Letourneau, who wants to do this research in order to prevent children from being abused, has been called a pedophile sympathizer, simply for advocating these programs.
即使是像莱图诺这样的人，他想进行这项研究以防止儿童受到虐待，也被称为恋童癖同情者，仅仅是因为倡导这些计划。
If we can prevent this, we can prevent a lot of harm and a lot of cost.
如果我们能够防止这种情况的发生，我们就可以避免很多伤害和很多成本。
And we just don't.
而我们就是不这样做。
It's nuanced.
这是微妙的。
It's difficult to wrap your head around.
很难把你的头转过来。
It's a lot easier to say these guys are monsters.
说这些家伙是怪物要容易得多。
Let's put them in prison.
我们把他们关进监狱吧。
Let's put them on a registry.
让我们把它们放在注册表中。
Let's put them in civil commitment facilities.
让我们将它们放入民事承诺设施中。
And forget about them.
忘记他们吧。
The place that research is most solid is the numbers.
研究最扎实的地方是数字。
Studies suggest that an astonishingly large number of men are pedophiles.
研究表明，恋童癖的男性数量多得惊人。
A respected survey by Michael Seto, director of the Forensic Research Unit at the University of Ottawa, found that 3% of all men have sexually offended against a prepubescent child.
渥太华大学法医研究中心主任迈克尔·塞托 (Michael Seto) 进行的一项备受尊敬的调查发现，3% 的男性曾对青春期前的儿童进行过性侵犯。
Though not all these men would be considered pedophiles.
尽管并非所有这些人都会被视为恋童癖。
But he goes on to estimate that 1% to 3% of men would meet the diagnostic criteria for pedophilia, which equates to anywhere between 1.2 million and 3.4 million pedophiles in the US alone.
但他接着估计，1% 到 3% 的男性符合恋童癖的诊断标准，这相当于仅在美国就有 120 万到 340 万恋童癖者。
That means there are lots of people out there who presumably try not to offend, with nowhere to turn to for help.
这意味着有很多人可能试图不冒犯他人，却无处可求助。
There's almost no research to explain why they are the way they are, and no known treatment.
几乎没有研究可以解释为什么它们会变成这样，也没有已知的治疗方法。
Which is how a teenager might conclude that his best option is to invent his own way forward.
这就是青少年可能得出的结论：他最好的选择是发明自己的前进之路。
At 17, Adam started searching online for other guys like himself, young men struggling to deal with their attraction to kids.
17 岁时，亚当开始在网上寻找其他像他一样的男人，这些年轻人正在努力应对自己对孩子的吸引力。
And some responded.
一些人做出了回应。
They got to talking online.
他们开始在网上交谈。
And soon there were a bunch of them, communicating on a daily basis.
很快他们就形成了一群人，每天都在交流。
Before long, Adam realized that he had inadvertently formed a support group for young pedophiles.
不久之后，亚当意识到自己无意中组建了一个针对年轻恋童癖者的支持小组。
There are currently nine members, ranging in age from 16 to 22, eight men and one woman.
目前有九名成员，年龄介乎16岁至22岁，其中八男一女。
They communicate in the same way that any bunch of teenagers do-- Gchat, text, email, the odd phone call, or video chat.
他们的交流方式与任何青少年都一样——Gchat、短信、电子邮件、奇怪的电话或视频聊天。
And there's usually at least a few people online each night.
通常每晚至少有几个人在线。
I've talked to five of them, and met three of those in person.
我与其中五人交谈过，并亲自会见了其中三人。
They all said they're glad to have found the group.
他们都表示很高兴找到这个团体。
And for most, it's the only outlet they have.
对于大多数人来说，这是他们唯一的出路。
Everyone I've spoken to has a story about how the group saved them.
我采访过的每个人都有一个关于该组织如何拯救他们的故事。
A 22-year-old college student told me this one.
一位22岁的大学生告诉我这件事。
There was a time when I was really running out of hope for the future.
曾经有一段时间，我真的对未来失去了希望。
I was unemployed, and I felt like no one was going to give me a shot.
我失业了，我觉得没有人会给我机会。
And I felt like I had literally no shot in life.
我觉得我的人生真的没有机会了。
And I kind of wanted to kill myself.
我有点想自杀。
I didn't do it.
我没有做。
The first thing I thought of was especially Adam, in specific, but the rest of them as well, that I couldn't let them down like that.
我首先想到的尤其是亚当，具体来说，还有其他人，我不能让他们这样失望。
The governing principle of the group is that you can only be a part of it if you agree that it's wrong to have sex with kids.
该团体的管理原则是，只有你同意与孩子发生性关系是错误的，你才能成为该团体的一部分。
There are other pedophile support groups online who feel the opposite, who advocate for the abolishment of age of consent laws.
网上还有其他恋童癖支持团体持相反的看法，他们主张废除同意年龄法。
Others suggest that molesting children is wrong because it's illegal, but stop short of taking a moral stand.
其他人则认为猥亵儿童是错误的，因为它是非法的，但他们没有采取道德立场。
Adam's group absolutely takes a moral stand.
亚当的团体绝对采取道德立场。
A few times, he's found himself trying to convince potential members of the group that having sex with children is wrong.
有几次，他发现自己试图说服该团体的潜在成员，与儿童发生性关系是错误的。
And occasionally, Adam has to turn someone away.
有时，亚当不得不拒绝某人。
There was one time someone came in, and he admitted to me pretty much right away that he'd done some sexual things with a five-year-old kid.
有一次有人进来，他几乎立刻就向我承认他和一个五岁的孩子做了一些性行为。
And right then and there, I said we can't have you.
就在那时，我说我们不能拥有你。
First off, they're a risk.
首先，它们是一种风险。
But what's more is I think, that I'll admit, I have a bias.
但更重要的是我认为，我承认，我有偏见。
I think we are better people than those who go out and hurt kids.
我认为我们比那些出去伤害孩子的人更好。
Did you tell him that?
你告诉他了吗？
Adam I explained to him, you know, to the best of my ability, that what he did was very wrong.
亚当，我尽我所能向他解释，他所做的事情是非常错误的。
And that the most noble thing he could possibly do would be to tell the kid's parents so that at least that kid could get the help he might need.
他能做的最崇高的事情就是告诉孩子的父母，这样至少那个孩子可以获得他可能需要的帮助。
And what was his response?
他的反应是什么？
Adam Something like maybe.
亚当 也许吧。
In a different world, this person would be talking to a professional, not a 19-year-old with no training at all.
在另一个世界中，这个人会与专业人士交谈，而不是与没有受过任何训练的 19 岁年轻人交谈。
Or maybe this person would just be in prison.
或者这个人可能会被关进监狱。
Here's another important distinction.
这是另一个重要的区别。
Eight out of the nine in Adam's group say they are nonexclusive pedophiles, which means they are also attracted to their peers or adults, in addition to kids.
亚当小组中的九人中有八人表示他们是非排他性的恋童癖者，这意味着除了孩子之外，他们还被同龄人或成年人所吸引。
That's important because researchers like Elizabeth Letourneau think it might be possible to push people like that to become more attracted to people their own age, if you start young.
这很重要，因为伊丽莎白·莱图诺（Elizabeth Letourneau）等研究人员认为，如果你从小就开始，可能会促使这样的人对同龄人更加感兴趣。
Yeah, so through hanging out with peers more often, engaging in fun things with peers more often, really increasing that, I really believe, at least for some kids, some portion of kids who are sexually attracted to children, it's changeable.
是的，所以通过更频繁地与同龄人一起出去玩，更频繁地与同龄人一起参与有趣的事情，真正增加这一点，我真的相信，至少对于某些孩子，对某些对孩子有性吸引力的孩子来说，这是可以改变的。
I don't want to start with the premise that it's impossible.
我不想以不可能为前提。
When I first started talking to Letourneau a year and a half ago, she told me that in her 25 years in the field, she'd talked to lots of young guys who've abused children.
一年半前，当我第一次开始与 Letourneau 交谈时，她告诉我，在她从事该领域的 25 年中，她与许多虐待儿童的年轻人交谈过。
But she'd never spoken to a pedophile who hasn't, which I found pretty incredible.
但她从来没有和一个没有说过话的恋童癖者说过话，这让我觉得很不可思议。
I told her about Adam's group, and she asked if I could put them in touch.
我告诉她亚当的小组的情况，她问我是否可以让他们联系。
She's since spoken to several of them and has been talking to Adam regularly.
此后，她与其中几位进行了交谈，并定期与亚当交谈。
And she's started to notice patterns, pattens that she can use to inform a treatment plan that she's getting off the ground.
她开始注意到一些模式，她可以用这些模式来告知她正在取得进展的治疗计划。
You know, before talking to Adam and the other young men, I didn't know when it really crystallized for them that this wasn't going away.
你知道，在与亚当和其他年轻人交谈之前，我不知道他们什么时候真正明确了这种情况不会消失。
I didn't know what the experiences were.
我不知道这些经历是什么。
I had no idea about the deep depression and the self-loathing and the fear that really characterized all of their adolescence.
我不知道他们整个青春期的真正特征是深度抑郁、自我厌恶和恐惧。
While Letourneau is just starting to learn about what causes pedophilia and develop methods for treatment, Adam doesn't agree that he can be fixed.
虽然莱图诺刚刚开始了解恋童癖的成因并开发治疗方法，但亚当并不认为他可以被治愈。
He doesn't hold out hope for the possibility of becoming something other than a pedophile.
除了恋童癖之外，他不抱任何希望。
It took him years to figure it out in the first place.
他花了很多年才弄清楚这一点。
The truth is, I know what my attractions are.
事实是，我知道我的吸引力是什么。
I know they're there.
我知道他们在那里。
By every definition of the medical term, I am one.
根据医学术语的每一个定义，我都是其中之一。
Sometimes, you really just know these things.
有时候，你真的只知道这些事情。
Adam says being a pedophile is something he'll spend the rest of his life battling.
亚当说，他将用余生与恋童癖作斗争。
But he's committed to managing it.
但他致力于管理它。
He's thought ahead to his future in a way that most 19-year-olds don't.
他对自己未来的思考是大多数 19 岁年轻人所不具备的。
You know, I'd like a partner, obviously.
你知道，显然我想要一个伴侣。
The thought of having a kid is very scary.
一想到要孩子就非常害怕。
I'm not convinced I could ever allow myself to do that, as much as I may want it.
我不相信我可以允许自己这样做，尽管我很想这么做。
I think, most people want kids at some point in their lives.
我认为，大多数人在一生中的某个阶段都想要孩子。
And that's something that while I'm not saying I never will have, it's something I don't think I will have, I guess, for both of our safeties.
虽然我并不是说我永远不会拥有这种东西，但我想，为了我们双方的安全，我认为我不会拥有这种东西。
Imagine being a teenager and being told never to act on your sexual feelings ever for the rest of your life.
想象一下，当你是一个青少年时，你被告知在你的余生中永远不要对你的性感觉采取行动。
That's what we're asking of these people.
这就是我们对这些人的要求。
At the moment, there is no clear plan for how to do that.
目前，还没有明确的计划如何做到这一点。
But maybe there should be.
但也许应该有。
Luke Malone.
卢克·马龙。
More of his reporting on this topic will appear next month on Medium.com.
他关于这个主题的更多报道将于下个月发布在 Medium.com 上。
[MUSIC - "FEEL LIKE A MONSTER" BY DEEPEST DARKEST]
[音乐 - DEEPEST DARKEST 的“FEEL LIKE A MONSTER”]
Our program is produced today by Brian Reed with Alex Blumberg, Ben Calhoun, Sean Cole, Stephanie Foo, Chana Joffee-Walt, Sarah Koenig, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
我们今天的节目由 Brian Reed 与 Alex Blumberg、Ben Calhoun、Sean Cole、Stephanie Foo、Chana Joffee-Walt、Sarah Koenig、Miki Meek、Jonathan Menjivar、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 共同制作。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Production help from Allison Davis.
艾莉森·戴维斯提供制作帮助。
Seth Lind is our operations director.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的运营总监。
Emily Condon's our production manager.
艾米丽·康登是我们的生产经理。
Elise Bergerson's our administrative assistant.
埃莉斯·伯格森是我们的行政助理。
Adrianne Mathiowetz runs our website.
阿德琳娜·马修韦茨 (Adrianne Mathiowetz) 负责运营我们的网站。
Research help from Michelle Harris and Julie Beer.
米歇尔·哈里斯和朱莉·比尔的研究帮助。
Music help from Damien Graef, Rob Geddis, and Anthony Roman.
Damien Graef、Rob Geddis 和 Anthony Roman 提供音乐帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGMENTS] Our website, ThisAmericanLife.org, where, just a reminder, we have the photo of the man who was tarred and feathered this week.
[致谢] 我们的网站 ThisAmericanLife.org，只是提醒一下，我们有一张本周涂柏油和羽毛的男人的照片。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
Thanks, as always to our program's co-founder, Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia。
He used to own an antique store, but it just didn't work out.
他曾经拥有一家古董店，但经营不善。
Because he would say things to the customers like--
因为他会对顾客说这样的话——
"There's a difference in looking, and there is a difference in 'looooking.'"
“看是有区别的，‘看’也是有区别的。”
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life .
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。