521: Bad Baby - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #521 | March 28, 2014 521: Bad Baby Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 521 集 | 2014 年 3 月 28 日 521：坏宝贝 注：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Cheryl says that when her first son was born, he was everything to her, the center of her world, and he seemed happy.
序言艾拉·格拉斯·谢丽尔说，当她的第一个儿子出生时，他就是她的一切，她世界的中心，而且他看起来很高兴。
He was affectionate, seemed to be very attached to me.
他很热情，看起来对我很依恋。
He seemed to be a normal child.
他看上去就是一个正常的孩子。
I don't remember seeing a lot of aggression in him when he was littler.
我不记得在他小的时候在他身上看到过太多的攻击性。
That changed with the aggression when he was two when his little brother was born.
当他两岁的时候，他的弟弟出生了，这种攻击性改变了。
Of course, lots of kids act out when younger kids arrive in the family.
当然，当年幼的孩子来到家里时，很多孩子都会表现得很乖。
But he was extreme.
但他很极端。
He'd pinch him.
他会掐他。
He'd squish him.
他会压扁他。
He'd try to hurt his little brother.
他会试图伤害他的弟弟。
Cheryl says very quickly it got the point that she and her husband could never leave the two of them alone to play.
谢丽尔很快就说，她和她的丈夫永远不能让他们两个单独玩耍。
But they just thought, you know, he's hyper.
但他们只是认为，你知道，他太亢奋了。
Some kids are hyper.
有些孩子很亢奋。
They could handle it, no big deal.
他们可以应付，没什么大不了的。
AS he got older, there was other stuff like that.
随着年龄的增长，还有其他类似的事情。
At three and four, he would come out of preschool and scream and yell at her, no matter what happened at school that day.
三四岁的时候，他会从幼儿园出来，对她尖叫、大喊大叫，不管那天学校发生了什么。
And there was never any reason for his behavior.
他的行为从来没有任何理由。
He just showed significant aggression towards me and towards his brother.
他只是对我和他的兄弟表现出明显的攻击性。
And it was every day.
每天都是如此。
When I look back, I realize that we've been walking on eggshells with this child since he was very little.
当我回首往事时，我发现我们从这个孩子很小的时候起就一直如履薄冰。
How old was he when he first tried to kill his brother?
当他第一次试图杀死他的兄弟时他多大了？
That happened this summer, so he was seven.
那件事发生在今年夏天，当时他七岁。
He decided to hold his brother under water in our backyard swimming pool.
他决定把他的兄弟放在我们后院游泳池的水下。
I was standing there about five feet away and felt some kind of commotion and turned around.
我站在大约五英尺远的地方，感觉到某种骚动，然后转过身来。
And my son popped up out of the water, hysterical.
我的儿子从水里跳了出来，歇斯底里。
My younger son popped up hysterical.
我的小儿子突然变得歇斯底里。
He'd been clawing and scratching at his older brother feet, trying to get his older brother to release him.
他一直抓着哥哥的脚，试图让哥哥放开他。
Cheryl separated the two boys, and the older brother started yelling at her, about his feet.
谢丽尔将两个男孩分开，哥哥开始对她大喊大叫，指责他的脚。
And he was screaming at me and telling me that I was a bad mother for not attending to his bleeding feet, because I was taking care of my younger son and his hysterical screaming and crying, and like he was trying to catch his breath.
他对我尖叫，告诉我我是一个坏母亲，因为我没有照顾他流血的脚，因为我正在照顾我的小儿子和他歇斯底里的尖叫和哭泣，就像他试图喘口气一样。
The older boy had been attacking the younger one for years.
大男孩多年来一直攻击小男孩。
But this seemed different.
但这似乎有所不同。
This was new, to take things so far that his little brother thought he might die-- no kidding.
这是新鲜事，事情发展到他弟弟认为他可能会死的地步——不是开玩笑。
And just as disturbing was the older brother's attitude afterwards.
同样令人不安的是哥哥事后的态度。
He did it and never acknowledged the danger of what he did.
他这样做了，却从未承认他所做的事情的危险性。
It never hits him that he could have killed his brother.
他从来没有想到他可能会杀了他的兄弟。
It never seems to bother him that that was a possibility.
他似乎从未对这种可能性感到困扰。
Later did he show remorse?
后来他有悔过吗？
Cheryl No, he never has.
谢丽尔 不，他从来没有。
When we would talk about it with therapists, he would just sit silent and not really participate in the conversation.
当我们与治疗师谈论这个问题时，他只是静静地坐着，并没有真正参与谈话。
He didn't defend himself, and they didn't deny it.
他没有为自己辩护，他们也没有否认。
He just sits silent.
他只是静静地坐着。
Since then, there have been other incidents.
此后，又发生了其他事件。
Twice he's pinned his little brother to the bed with a pillow over his little brother's face, suffocating him.
他两次将弟弟按在床上，用枕头盖住弟弟的脸，让他窒息而死。
Each time he kept going when Cheryl yelled at him to stop.
每次他继续前行时，谢丽尔都喊他停下来。
She had to shove him off.
她不得不推开他。
He also has a two-year-old sister.
他还有一个两岁的妹妹。
He's thrown her across the room.
他把她扔到了房间的另一边。
And there are creepy moments, like Cheryl would wake up sometimes during the night, and he would just be standing by her bed, watching.
还有一些令人毛骨悚然的时刻，比如谢丽尔有时会在半夜醒来，而他只是站在她的床边看着。
One night after he had done that, she found a pole near the bed.
他这样做后的一天晚上，她在床边发现了一根柱子。
So he had been in my room for a while, while we were sleeping.
所以当我们睡觉时，他已经在我的房间里呆了一段时间。
And I found this pole on the floor and realized that he had been at some point holding it in his hand while standing next to my bed while I was sound asleep and my husband was sound asleep.
我在地板上发现了这根杆子，意识到他在某个时候站在我的床边，手里拿着它，当时我睡得很熟，我的丈夫也睡得很熟。
And it's an incredibly unnerving feeling to know how vulnerable I was at that moment and what could have happened, what choices he could have made at that moment.
知道那一刻我是多么脆弱，可能会发生什么，他当时可能会做出什么选择，这是一种令人难以置信的令人不安的感觉。
And I don't know what was going through his mind.
而且我不知道他心里在想什么。
He told me the next morning that he wanted to wake me up.
第二天早上他告诉我他想叫醒我。
And I said, well, why would you have the pole?
我说，好吧，你为什么要拿着杆子？
Well, I was going to use the pole to wake you up.
好吧，我本来打算用杆子叫醒你。
After that, she and her husband installed alarms around the house, one on his bedroom door, one on his sister's bedroom door, one on their bedroom door, one that goes off if he tries to go downstairs, plus security cameras 24 hours.
之后，她和丈夫在房子周围安装了警报器，一个在他的卧室门上，一个在他姐姐的卧室门上，一个在他们的卧室门上，一个如果他试图下楼就会响起，再加上24小时监控摄像头。
And my younger son sleeps on my bedroom floor.
我的小儿子睡在我卧室的地板上。
And when you say an alarm goes off, I don't know whether to picture a car alarm, like a big, loud like woo, woo, woo sound, or just like a buzzer goes off next to your bed so you know something's happened.
当你说警报响起时，我不知道是否会想象汽车警报器，就像一个大而响亮的“呜、呜、呜”的声音，或者就像你床边的蜂鸣器响起一样，这样你就知道发生了什么事。
It's the woo-woo sound.
是呜呜的声音。
Yeah, it's loud enough that you can hear it from down the hallway.
是的，声音很大，你在走廊里都能听到。
His bedroom's on the opposite side of the house.
他的卧室在房子的对面。
So when it goes off in the middle of the night, we hear it.
因此，当它在半夜响起时，我们会听到它。
It's a sound that I hear in the shower.
这是我在淋浴时听到的声音。
It's a sound that I hear in my dreams sometimes.
这是我有时在梦中听到的声音。
But yes, we all know when that sound goes off that it's time to be prepared.
但是，是的，我们都知道，当声音响起时，就该做好准备了。
Have you thought to yourself, oh no. Am I raising a psychopath?
你有没有想过，哦，不。我养的是一个精神病患者吗？
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Ira Glass Cheryl and her husband have taken him to specialists, psychiatrists, psychologists, a neurologist, a neuropsychiatrist.
艾拉·格拉斯·谢丽尔和她的丈夫带他去看专家、精神科医生、心理学家、神经科医生、神经精神病学家。
At five, her son was diagnosed ADHD.
五岁时，她的儿子被诊断出多动症。
He's been diagnosed with conduct disorder, oppositional defiance disorder, mood dysregulation disorder.
他被诊断患有品行障碍、对立违抗障碍、情绪失调障碍。
He's on the autism spectrum.
他属于自闭症谱系。
He's been on meds since kindergarten.
他从幼儿园就开始吃药了。
They've tried removing privileges, removing toys, punishing him with an earlier bedtime, taking objects out of his room.
他们尝试过取消他的特权，拿走玩具，惩罚他早点睡觉，把物品从他的房间里拿走。
They're going to keep an even tone of voice with him when he acts up.
当他表现不佳时，他们会与他保持平稳的语气。
They've tried a system of rewards, where we get stars and presents for doing what he's supposed to.
他们尝试了一种奖励制度，我们会因为做了他应该做的事情而获得星星和礼物。
He's now eight years old.
他现在八岁了。
Cheryl's been keeping a blog about all this.
谢丽尔一直在写关于这一切的博客。
Cheryl is not her real name, by the way.
顺便说一句，谢丽尔不是她的真名。
And she doesn't give her kids' names out either.
她也没有透露孩子们的名字。
And reading about her family's daily life on the blog, it really struck me how her older son takes real pleasure in the chaos that he creates, like in the morning, when they'll all getting ready to go to school, making loud noises, throwing food.
在博客上读到她家人的日常生活，让我印象深刻的是，她的大儿子如何从他制造的混乱中获得真正的乐趣，就像在早上，当他们都准备去学校时，大声喧哗，扔食物。
Don't roll your eyes!
别翻白眼！
Ira Glass What you're hearing is from the security cam in the kitchen.
Ira Glass：你听到的是厨房里的安全摄像头发出的声音。
Just on Tuesday, there was multiple threats to kill his brother.
就在周二，多次威胁要杀死他的兄弟。
And he was throwing glasses of water across the room.
他正在把水杯扔到房间的另一边。
And his little sister was yelling, mean, mean and stop it.
他的妹妹正在大喊，卑鄙，卑鄙，别这样。
You're mean.
你很卑鄙。
You're mean.
你很卑鄙。
Cheryl And he'll go from one sibling to the other.
谢丽尔 他会从一个兄弟姐妹转到另一个兄弟姐妹。
And I'm protecting one sibling, and he goes after the other.
我保护一个兄弟姐妹，而他却去追捕另一个。
And the more tense and stressful it gets, the more giddy and happy, and he finds humor in all of it.
越是紧张和压力，他就越感到头晕和快乐，他在这一切中找到了幽默。
How much of it is he likes the attention, and how much of it is-- and it's weird to use this word for a little kid-- but just pure sadism?
他有多少喜欢受到关注，有多少——用这个词来形容一个小孩子很奇怪——但只是纯粹的施虐狂？
Like he likes tormenting you all?
就像他喜欢折磨你们一样？
It's a really hard one to judge.
这真的很难判断。
I do believe that he enjoys going after his brother purely for the sadistic nature of making his brother feel unsafe.
我确实相信他喜欢追捕他的兄弟纯粹是为了让他的兄弟感到不安全的虐待狂性质。
Do you think that he does things to you because he likes seeing you suffer?
你认为他对你做事是因为他喜欢看到你受苦吗？
Yes, I do.
是的，我愿意。
Ira Glass Of course, nobody ever wants to say a kid is just bad.
艾拉·格拉斯 当然，没有人愿意说孩子只是坏人。
And the traits that we have in childhood don't necessarily last into adulthood.
而且我们童年时拥有的特征并不一定会持续到成年。
There's a study that looked at teenage boys with psychopathic traits.
有一项研究针对具有精神病特征的十几岁男孩。
They found that only one fifth of highly psychopathic teenagers continued to be highly psychopathic once they grew into adulthood.
他们发现，只有五分之一的高度精神病态青少年在成年后仍然处于高度精神病态。
Among people who study and treat kids like this, there's a relatively new classification for children who don't have remorse and don't feel empathy for others.
在这样研究和对待孩子的人中，有一个相对较新的分类，即对那些没有悔恨和对他人没有同理心的孩子进行分类。
It's CU, short for callous unemotional traits.
它是 CU，冷酷无情特征的缩写。
Dan Waschbusch is a psychologist and researches these kind of kids.
丹·沃斯布施 (Dan Waschbusch) 是一位心理学家，研究这类孩子。
And he says that, at this point, we do have techniques to get these kids to follow rules better, by giving them rewards.
他说，在这一点上，我们确实有办法通过给予这些孩子奖励来让他们更好地遵守规则。
But getting them to learn empathy, that's a whole other thing.
但让他们学会同理心，那就是另一回事了。
I think that's a very difficult thing to treat.
我认为这是一件很难治疗的事情。
It's hard to see how you even directly address that.
很难看出你是如何直接解决这个问题的。
I don't think there's been a lot of progress in that.
我认为这方面并没有取得很大进展。
Which leaves Cheryl and her husband in a very tough situation.
这让谢丽尔和她的丈夫陷入了非常艰难的境地。
And as her son has gotten older and bigger, things have gotten worse.
随着儿子越来越大，事情变得越来越糟。
He's gotten harder to manage.
他变得越来越难管理了。
A few weeks ago, Cheryl was trying to hug him on the bed.
几周前，谢丽尔试图在床上拥抱他。
And he took his knee and he jammed it up and broke my nose.
他用膝盖卡住了我的鼻子。
Do you think it was accidental or intentional?
你认为这是意外还是故意的？
It was intentional.
这是故意的。
I don't know if he planned on breaking my nose, but I know he planned on hurting me.
我不知道他是否打算打断我的鼻子，但我知道他打算伤害我。
He laughed.
他笑了。
So since your oldest son broke your nose while you were hugging him, what's it been like to hug him?
那么，既然你在拥抱你的大儿子时打断了你的鼻子，那么拥抱他是什么感觉呢？
It's very difficult.
这是非常困难的。
He has since tried to come into my bed, and he'll say I want to snuggle.
从那以后他就试图上我的床，他会说我想依偎着。
I want to snuggle.
我想依偎。
And it's something that I have to choose to do, because it's not a natural reaction any longer.
这是我必须选择做的事情，因为它不再是一种自然反应。
I have to actually make the conscious decision to hug and love the child.
我必须真正做出有意识的决定去拥抱和爱孩子。
I've read articles about children like him that their best chance at life is to continue to get that unconditional love, and so my husband and I make a concerted effort to grab him and hug him and love him, despite everything that we've been through.
我读过关于像他这样的孩子的文章，他们一生中最好的机会就是继续获得无条件的爱，因此我和我的丈夫齐心协力抓住他，拥抱他并爱他，尽管我们经历了一切。
But I can tell you, as a parent, I had never expected to have to force myself to hug my child in the morning.
但我可以告诉你，作为一名家长，我从来没想过要强迫自己在早上拥抱我的孩子。
Of course, lots of parents experience less extreme versions of what she's going through.
当然，很多父母都经历过与她所经历的不那么极端的版本。
Most parents have moments when they think, oh my kid is a monster.
大多数父母都会有这样的想法：哦，我的孩子是个怪物。
But usually that goes hand in hand with, it's a phase.
但通常情况下，这是一个阶段。
It's a bad day.
今天真是糟糕的一天。
People have faith that their kids are going to change.
人们相信他们的孩子会改变。
Well, today on our program, we have stories of children who make it very difficult for their parents to believe that, and parents who really wonder, can my kid change?
好吧，今天在我们的节目中，我们有一些孩子的故事，这些孩子让他们的父母很难相信这一点，而父母则真正想知道，我的孩子能改变吗？
And we ask, are there kids you can't do anything for?
我们问，是否有一些孩子是你无能为力的？
Today on our program, "Bad Babies," and the bad children they grow into-- sometimes, anyway.
今天在我们的节目中，“坏婴儿”，以及他们成长为坏孩子——有时，无论如何。
Very important.
非常重要。
It is not all doom and gloom on our program today.
今天我们的计划并不全是厄运和悲观。
We have stories of children who do not stay so bad as they get older, who end up, in fact, super close to their parents.
我们有这样的故事：随着年龄的增长，孩子们的表现并没有那么糟糕，事实上，他们最终与父母非常亲近。
Today's program I promise you will end with a hug.
我保证今天的节目将以拥抱结束。
That's not a spoiler.
这不是剧透。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.
这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
ACT 1:
行动 1：
Act One, Baby Not On Board.
第一幕，婴儿不在船上。
So talking with the mom who you just heard, Cheryl, this week, I found myself thinking about this interview that I did years ago.
因此，本周与你刚刚听到的妈妈谢丽尔交谈时，我发现自己想起了几年前的这次采访。
The writer Doris Lessing had just publish this novel called The Fifth Child.
作家多丽丝·莱辛刚刚出版了小说《第五个孩子》。
And I got a chance to talk to her.
我有机会和她交谈。
And this, by the way, is how I sounded on the radio back then, when I was 29.
顺便说一句，这就是我 29 岁时在广播中听到的声音。
In the legend of the changeling, an unlovable child is left by the fairies in place of a real human child.
在换生灵的传说中，仙女们留下了一个不可爱的孩子来代替一个真正的人类孩子。
Doris Lessing has updated the changeling story in her latest book called The Fifth Child.
多丽丝·莱辛在她的最新著作《第五个孩子》中更新了换生灵的故事。
OK, I'm going to stop the tape right there.
好的，我要停止录像了。
Yes, I was not so good.
是的，我没那么好。
Anyway, The Fifth Child is about what happens in a family when a baby is born into it who is not fully human.
不管怎样，《第五个孩子》讲述了一个家庭中当一个不完全人类的婴儿出生时所发生的事情。
That's the story.
这就是故事。
He's born this goblin-ish sort of human and is a malevolent force from the beginning.
他生来就是一个妖精般的人类，从一开始就是一股邪恶的力量。
He kills the family pets with his bare hands.
他徒手杀死了家里的宠物。
From inside his crib, he injures his older brother by grabbing him and spraining his arm.
他在婴儿床上抓住了哥哥并扭伤了他的手臂，把他打伤了。
And what I found myself remembering this week is how the mom in that book is treated.
这周我发现自己记得的是那本书中的妈妈是如何被对待的。
Everybody blames the mom for how the kid turned out-- to her face and sometimes more subtly.
每个人都因为孩子的表现而责怪妈妈——当着她的面，有时甚至更微妙地责备她。
They act like it is her fault that this goblin is a goblin.
他们表现得好像这个妖精是妖精都是她的错。
And Lessing told me in the interview that this part of the story actually came from real life.
而莱辛在采访中告诉我，这部分故事其实来自于现实生活。
And in fact, I've seen it in more than one family.
事实上，我在不止一个家庭中见过这种情况。
One of my friends had a couple of children, perfectly normal children, and the third child was-- no one ever found out what was wrong.
我的一个朋友有几个孩子，完全正常的孩子，第三个孩子是——没有人发现出了什么问题。
But it wasn't a normal child.
但这不是一个正常的孩子。
And she went around the usual round of experts and psychiatrists and God knows what.
她又像往常一样拜访了专家和精神科医生，天知道会发生什么。
And she said to me it suddenly occurred to her that all this time, it was taken absolutely for granted in some way it was her fault.
她对我说，她突然想到，一直以来，这一切都被认为是理所当然的，在某种程度上，这是她的错。
It was her psychological attitude, and so on.
是她的心理态度等等。
And she said to one of them in a moment of revelation, how is it that no one has ever one said to me, how clever you are to have given birth to two marvellous, normal children.
她在一个恍然大悟的时刻对其中一个人说，怎么从来没有人对我说过，你多么聪明，竟然生下了两个了不起的、正常的孩子。
All you've ever said to me-- or suggested-- is that I'm a criminal.
你对我说过的——或者建议的——就是我是个罪犯。
There is this is set, psychological set, an emotional set, that women get blamed for things like this.
这是一种心理、情感上的设定，女性会因为这样的事情而受到指责。
Again, here's Cheryl, the mother from the top of the show.
谢丽尔再次登场，她是节目中的佼佼者。
I don't think there's a day that goes by that I don't feel that judgment.
我想我每一天都会感受到这种判断。
I feel judgment from family, from friends, from strangers, from school administrators, from teachers.
我感受到来自家人、朋友、陌生人、学校管理人员、老师的评判。
I live in this constant state of guilt and judgment that I feel that if I did something different or did something better that perhaps I wouldn't have this problem.
我生活在这种持续的内疚和评判状态中，我觉得如果我做了一些不同的事情或者做得更好，也许我就不会遇到这个问题了。
And then I have to remind myself that I have two other beautiful children that don't behave the same way.
然后我必须提醒自己，我还有另外两个漂亮的孩子，但他们的行为方式却不同。
So I must be doing something right.
所以我一定在做正确的事情。
A couple weeks ago, you wrote on your blog, "I feel like I have failed my child.
几周前，您在博客上写道：“我觉得我辜负了我的孩子。
I can't shake that.
我无法动摇这一点。
I want to kick and scream and fight and find the next thing to try to make it better.
我想踢腿、尖叫、战斗，并找到下一件事情来让它变得更好。
But I know in my heart he is who he is." And reading your blog, in a couple of different spots, it seems like you go back and forth between those two feelings-- on the one hand, blaming yourself for not doing a better job at getting him to change, and on the other hand, feeling like you're doing everything you know how to do.
但我心里知道他就是他。”在几个不同的地方阅读你的博客，你似乎在这两种感觉之间来回徘徊——一方面，责怪自己没有更好地让他改变，另一方面，感觉你正在做你知道如何做的一切。
And I'm wondering lately, which of those two feelings are you feeling more?
我最近想知道，您对这两种感觉中哪一种感觉更强烈？
Today I feel like a failure.
今天我感觉自己很失败。
Ira Glass Why?
艾拉·格拉斯 为什么？
What happened today?
今天发生什么事了？
Oh, well, today was a very rough day.
哦，好吧，今天是非常艰难的一天。
He's mean.
他很刻薄。
He's called me a jerk.
他骂我是混蛋。
He called me many names, tried to hurt his brother, the same things that happen on a daily basis.
他辱骂我，试图伤害他的兄弟，这些事情每天都在发生。
Just today was-- it gets old.
就在今天——它变旧了。
Do your little kids have the feeling that you can't protect them?
您的孩子是否觉得您无法保护他们？
I believe that they still feel like I can protect them.
我相信他们仍然觉得我可以保护他们。
I believe my younger son feels like he can protect me.
我相信我的小儿子觉得他可以保护我。
He didn't want to leave this morning, because he's afraid that my older son will get me.
今天早上他不想离开，因为他担心我的大儿子会抓住我。
Her younger son is six.
她的小儿子六岁了。
Cheryl There are oftentimes when I tell him-- we have this code word where I tell him to take his baby sister to what we call the playhouse.
谢丽尔：我经常告诉他——我们有一个暗号，我告诉他带他的小妹妹去我们所谓的剧场。
And what that means is he has to take them to her bedroom, and then he blocks the door because my eldest son is out of control.
这意味着他必须带他们去她的卧室，然后他堵住门，因为我的大儿子失控了。
And until I can get someone there to help me or get him under control, his job is to protect his little sister and kind of play with her.
在我找到人来帮助我或控制住他之前，他的工作就是保护他的妹妹并和她一起玩。
And then sometimes in those moments, he doesn't want to leave me, because he feels like he needs to protect me too.
有时在那些时刻，他不想离开我，因为他觉得他也需要保护我。
And he feels this need to be the protector.
他觉得有必要成为保护者。
That does not seem good.
这似乎不太好。
Cheryl No. It's a terrible situation for him to be in.
谢丽尔 不。对他来说，现在的处境很糟糕。
She says that all this takes a toll on the two younger kids.
她说这一切都对两个年幼的孩子造成了影响。
Her two-year-old daughter can tell when the eight-year-old's voice changes, and he's about to do something mean or destructive and will start yelling at him to stop.
她两岁的女儿可以辨别出八岁孩子的声音何时发生变化，以及他即将做出什么卑鄙或破坏性的事情，并会开始大喊大叫让他停止。
Both children were noticeably more relaxed and happy, she says, when the eight-year-old was recently in a hospital for 10 days.
她说，当这个 8 岁的孩子最近在医院住了 10 天时，两个孩子都明显更加放松和快乐。
His meds were being adjusted.
他的药物正在调整。
And Cheryl and her husband feared that if their oldest son gets to the point where he's bigger and they cannot control him, how can they keep him at home?
谢丽尔和她的丈夫担心，如果他们的大儿子长大了，他们无法控制他，他们怎么能把他留在家里呢？
You know, it's a miserable way to live.
你知道，这是一种悲惨的生活方式。
And it's very difficult to have to choose.
而且必须做出选择是非常困难的。
Do you choose your eight-year-old and keep him home because it's hard to send him away?
你是否因为很难送走你八岁的孩子而选择把他留在家里？
Or do you choose to protect your other two children and send him away so that they can live a normal life?
还是选择保护另外两个孩子，把他送走，让他们过上正常的生活？
How do you make that decision as a mom?
作为妈妈，你如何做出这个决定？
And I feel like if I don't find a way to save him that I will lose him to the demon that is within him.
我觉得如果我找不到办法拯救他，我就会因为他内心的恶魔而失去他。
And hopefully I don't lose one of my other children or myself in that process.
希望我在这个过程中不会失去我的其他孩子或我自己。
If you want to read her blog, it is very well written.
如果你想读她的博客，它写得很好。
It's at myfamilymyvillage.com.
位于 myfamilymyvillage.com。
There's also a link from our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org 上还有一个链接。
ACT 2:
第二幕：
Act Two, The Road to Badness.
第二幕，通往邪恶之路。
So when does somebody turn bad?
那么人什么时候会变坏呢？
When does it happen?
什么时候发生？
Can you truly be said to be bad when you're, you know, 10 or six or-- OK, here the answer's going to get more obvious-- when you're two or six months old?
当你十岁或六岁的时候，或者——好吧，答案会变得更加明显——当你两到六个月大的时候，你真的可以被说是坏人吗？
Well, I don't think a baby can be bad in a sense of being malevolent, getting delight from the pain and suffering of others.
嗯，我不认为婴儿会因为怀有恶意、从他人的痛苦和磨难中获得快乐而变得邪恶。
We just don't see that.
我们只是没有看到这一点。
Paul Bloom is a professor at Yale who does experiments with babies to try to understand their sense of right and wrong, good and bad.
保罗·布鲁姆是耶鲁大学的一名教授，他对婴儿进行实验，试图了解他们是非善恶的感觉。
He wrote a book about it.
他写了一本关于它的书。
It's not that there's a desire to cause pain and suffering.
这并不是说有引起痛苦和痛苦的欲望。
It's not like what he said about the Joker in The Dark Knight, that some people just want the world to burn.
这并不像他在《黑暗骑士》中对小丑所说的那样，有些人只是希望世界被烧毁。
You don't see that in babies.
你在婴儿身上看不到这一点。
But what you see is selfish desires.
但你看到的都是自私的欲望。
They want food.
他们想要食物。
They want attention.
他们想要关注。
They want comfort.
他们想要安慰。
And they do not care what anybody else wants.
他们不关心别人想要什么。
Also, research shows they're nicer to people they know.
此外，研究表明他们对认识的人更加友善。
They don't give a damn about strangers.
他们根本不关心陌生人。
And they're racist.
他们是种族主义者。
Babies are racist.
婴儿是种族主义者。
OK, not exactly racist.
好吧，不完全是种族主义。
But they prefer whatever race of people they are used to seeing and being around.
但他们更喜欢他们习惯见到和周围的任何种族的人。
If they're raised in a multiracial setting, they're fine with all the different races that they're used to.
如果他们在多种族环境中长大，他们就能适应他们习惯的所有不同种族。
Thinking about this as much as you do, when do you think people turn bad?
和你一样思考这个问题，你认为人什么时候会变坏？
I don't really think of that as the right question.
我真的不认为这是正确的问题。
I think that to a large extent, we start off bad.
我认为在很大程度上，我们一开始就很糟糕。
We start off with these powerful selfish impulses.
我们从这些强大的自私冲动开始。
And what happens mostly through acculturation and development is we become good.
通过文化适应和发展，我们会变得更好。
We become more generous.
我们变得更加慷慨。
And a lot of the evil in the world is caused by people who, for whatever reason, missed out on us.
世界上许多邪恶都是由那些出于某种原因错过了我们的人造成的。
They missed out on getting their morality expanded to care about other races.
他们错过了将道德扩展到关心其他种族的机会。
They missed out on the capacity to exercise their self-control.
他们错过了锻炼自我控制的能力。
So to some extent, and this is an exaggeration, but to some extent, the most evil adult in the world is a two-year-old who never grew up, is a two-year-old who never managed to get control over his impulses.
所以在某种程度上，这是一种夸张，但在某种程度上，世界上最邪恶的成年人是一个从未长大的两岁孩子，是一个从未设法控制自己冲动的两岁孩子。
There's some studies that suggest that the peak of human violence is at age two.
有一些研究表明，人类暴力的高峰期是两岁。
We are most violent of all at that age.
我们在那个年纪是最暴力的。
There's a really nice passage in your book where you write, quote, "Families survive the terrible twos because toddlers aren't strong enough to kill with their hands and aren't capable of using lethal weapons."
你的书中有一段非常好的段落，你在其中写道：“家庭之所以能熬过可怕的两岁，是因为幼儿的力量不足以用手杀人，也没有能力使用致命武器。”
Having had two-year-olds, I truly believe that.
我已经有两岁的孩子了，我确实相信这一点。
Paul Bloom.
保罗·布鲁姆.
His book about all this is called Just Babies-- The Origins of Good and Evil.
他关于这一切的书名叫《正义的婴儿——善恶的起源》。
ACT 3:
第三幕：
Act Three, The Devil Went Down to Jersey.
第三幕，魔鬼降临泽西。
Now the story of a bad baby who stopped being bad as he aged.
现在是一个坏孩子随着年龄的增长不再坏的故事。
And the best possible thing happened-- all those disturbing incidents, they turned into stories that people tell.
最好的事情发生了——所有这些令人不安的事件，都变成了人们讲述的故事。
Jonathan Menjivar got them on tape.
乔纳森·门吉瓦 (Jonathan Menjivar) 将它们录成磁带。
The bad baby in this story, he's now a grown man in his '30s.
这个故事中的坏孩子，现在已经是 30 多岁的成年人了。
His name is Chris Gethard.
他的名字叫克里斯·格哈德。
And all his life, there's been this lore in Chris's family about what a monster he was as a kid, stories so crazy they sound mythical.
在克里斯的一生中，他的家人一直流传着这样的传说：他小时候是个怪物，这些故事如此疯狂，听起来像是神话。
People even use the word evil.
人们甚至使用“邪恶”这个词。
All this happened when Chris was around two and three, growing up in West Orange, New Jersey.
这一切都发生在克里斯两三岁左右的时候，他在新泽西州的西奥兰治长大。
And he remembers it, at least the feeling of it.
他还记得，至少记得那种感觉。
I do very vividly remember having this joy that I could create chaos is how I would phrase it as an adult.
我确实清楚地记得，作为一个成年人，我会用这种我可以制造混乱的快乐来表达它。
Being bad was fun to me-- getting people angry and crying.
对我来说，做坏事很有趣——让人们生气、哭泣。
And I'll go so far as to say I do also remember, in a way that is like sociopathic, I remember feeling like I ran the show.
我什至可以说，我也记得，以一种类似反社会的方式，我记得感觉就像我在主持这场演出。
Like, I'm in charge.
就像，我负责。
I'm in charge here.
我是这里的负责人。
I get to cause things.
我要引起事情。
That means I'm in charge.
这意味着我负责。
That's fun.
这很有趣。
The person little Chris had the most fun with was his mother, Sally Gethard.
小克里斯玩得最开心的人是他的母亲莎莉·格哈德。
Chris really made Sally suffer.
克里斯确实让莎莉很痛苦。
There was a level of wisdom and aggression towards my mom that it kind of keeps me out.
我妈妈有一定程度的智慧和攻击性，这让我被拒之门外。
Take this story.
就拿这个故事来说吧。
One day Sally took Chris to the local A&P in West Orange to do some grocery shopping.
有一天，莎莉带克里斯去西奥兰治当地的 A&P 去买杂货。
You have to know my neighborhood.
你必须了解我的邻居。
This was not just a supermarket.
这不仅仅是一家超市。
This is a supermarket where her father had been the produce manager for decades.
这是一家超市，她的父亲几十年来一直在那里担任产品经理。
It was a supermarket my own father worked at while putting himself through college.
这是我父亲在读大学时工作的一家超市。
So we went there one day.
所以有一天我们去了那里。
And she put me in the top part of the carriage, up in the part where the baby sticks his legs through, and you wheel him around.
她把我放在马车的顶部，婴儿伸腿的地方，然后你推着他转。
And we had two cats.
我们有两只猫。
So the first thing she bought was a whole bunch of cat food.
所以她买的第一件事就是一大堆猫粮。
She just loaded up the cart with cat food.
她刚刚把猫粮装到了推车上。
That's the only thing in the cart.
这是购物车里唯一的东西。
Now we're going down this aisle.
现在我们正沿着这条过道走。
And there's these two old Irish ladies in my very Irish neighborhood where, again, everybody knows everybody.
在我的爱尔兰社区里有两位爱尔兰老太太，在那里，每个人都认识每个人。
And I had been totally fine.
我一直都很好。
I'd been having a pleasant day with my mom.
我和妈妈度过了愉快的一天。
And I just started screaming, just crazy, over-the-top screaming, to the point where my mom was shocked.
我开始尖叫，疯狂的、过度的尖叫，让我妈妈感到震惊。
And she's going, what's the matter?
她要走了，有什么事吗？
What's wrong?
怎么了？
And these old women, I have their total focus on me because I'm causing this scene, and I just bust out screaming with, "I don't want to have cat food for dinner again!
这些老妇人，我把她们的全部注意力都集中在我身上，因为我造成了这一幕，我只是大声尖叫，“我不想再吃猫粮当晚餐了！
Please, don't make me have to have cat food for dinner again!"
拜托，别再让我晚饭吃猫粮了！”
This is, of course, Chris's mom, Sally Gethard.
这当然是克里斯的妈妈莎莉·格哈德。
Like, "I don't want cat food for supper again." And you know, you can't explain to people.
就像，“我晚餐不想再吃猫粮了。”你知道，你无法向人们解释。
You start dabbling, trying to explain that, no, I don't feed him cat food, you know?
你开始涉足，试图解释说，不，我不给他喂猫粮，你知道吗？
And they're looking at this little, innocent child.
他们看着这个天真的小孩子。
Of course they're going to think it's true.
他们当然会认为这是真的。
It was almost like he was out to sabotage me.
就好像他是想破坏我一样。
And that's what I mean.
这就是我的意思。
He was 2 and 1/2.
他当时 2 又 1/2。
How do you think of these things?
您如何看待这些事情？
However it came to Chris's tiny, conniving brain, this wasn't an isolated incident.
然而，对于克里斯那小而狡猾的大脑来说，这并不是一个孤立的事件。
One day, Sally's mother was coming over, and she says this thing happened that made it seem like Chris wanted her, his mother, to get in trouble with her mother.
有一天，莎莉的母亲过来，她说发生的这件事让克里斯看起来像是想让她，他的母亲，与她的母亲发生麻烦。
Chris had played nice all day.
克里斯一整天都表现得很好。
He seemed excited to see his grandma.
见到奶奶他似乎很兴奋。
She came in the front door.
她从前门进来。
We had a staircase up to the second floor.
我们有一个楼梯到二楼。
And he was sitting up at the top of the staircase.
他正坐在楼梯顶上。
The minute my mother walked in, he started yelling in that little whiny voice again, "me not a 'somamma' bitch." [LAUGHTER]
我妈妈一进来，他就又开始用那种微弱的、发牢骚的声音大喊大叫，“我不是‘sommm’婊子。” [笑声]
What did he say?
他说什么？
Sally Gethard "Me not a 'somamma' bitch." He couldn't even say it right, but he knew.
莎莉·格哈德“我不是‘sommma’婊子。”他甚至无法说清楚，但他知道。
I mean, had I ever called him that?
我是说，我曾经这样称呼过他吗？
Oh, maybe.
哦，也许吧。
But I hadn't just then.
但我当时还没有。
Then my mother would tell me, that's why he's the way he is, because you yell at him and you say things like that to him.
然后我妈妈会告诉我，这就是为什么他是这样的，因为你对他大喊大叫，你对他说这样的话。
Oh my god.
我的天啊。
Sally Gethard It was like he set me up.
莎莉·格哈德 就好像他陷害了我一样。
Chris was destructive too, to himself and everything around him.
克里斯对自己和周围的一切也具有破坏性。
He'd shove things up his nose.
他会把东西塞进鼻子里。
He'd eat dirt.
他会吃泥土。
He once covered all his stuffed animals with Vaseline.
他曾经把凡士林涂在所有的毛绒玩具上。
He broke pair after pair of Sally's glasses.
他打碎了莎莉的一副又一副眼镜。
He'd snap them in half and throw them across the room with real intention and anger.
他会把它们撕成两半，然后带着真正的意图和愤怒把它们扔到房间的另一边。
He was like the Hulk in a diaper.
他就像穿着尿布的绿巨人。
This is Chris's dad, Ken.
这是克里斯的父亲肯。
Chris, when he was real little like that, he had a bit of a temper.
克里斯，当他真的有点像那样的时候，他有一点脾气。
I'm sure you heard the story about his devil mark.
我相信你听说过关于他的恶魔印记的故事。
Yeah, you heard that right.
是的，你没听错。
Several people told me Chris was born with this V or triangle-shaped birthmark, his devil mark.
有几个人告诉我克里斯出生时就有这个 V 形或三角形胎记，这是他的魔鬼印记。
It sat right in the middle of his forehead.
它正好位于他额头的正中央。
Apparently the birthmark was not very prominent unless I was angry, at which point it turned bright red.
显然，除非我生气，否则胎记不是很明显，此时它会变成鲜红色。
And my mother has actually said that it glowed.
我妈妈实际上说过它会发光。
When Chris got angry and the devil mark was glowing, he would bite, too.
当克里斯生气并且恶魔印记发光时，他也会咬人。
Sally says Chris's older brother Greg was often the victim.
莎莉说克里斯的哥哥格雷格经常是受害者。
When he would bite Greg's fingers, he would just clamp down, clamp down.
当他咬格雷格的手指时，他会紧紧地钳住，钳住。
And I mean, I hate to even say this, but I'd smack his face to try to get him to release.
我的意思是，我什至不愿意这么说，但我会打他的脸，试图让他释放。
I mean, Greg would be screaming.
我的意思是，格雷格会尖叫。
I'd be screaming.
我会尖叫。
And then when he was ready, he'd let go and just walk away like he didn't do anything.
然后当他准备好时，他就会放手走开，就像什么也没做一样。
All these stories about Chris, they've become these little jokes in the family.
所有这些关于克里斯的故事，都成了家里的小笑话。
But Chris's behavior really weighed on his mom, Sally, in a way I think any parent who's dealt with a difficult childhood would understand.
但克里斯的行为确实给他的妈妈莎莉带来了压力，我认为任何经历过艰难童年的父母都会理解。
It's just the piling up, day after day of dealing with a little monster, doing it full time.
这只是日复一日地与小怪物打交道的堆积，全职做这件事。
It breaks you.
它让你心碎。
I feel so bad because I was always yelling.
我感觉很糟糕，因为我总是大喊大叫。
And my husband would come home.
我丈夫会回家。
I would just sit at the table and cry, because I really-- he loves when I tell these stories.
我会坐在桌边哭泣，因为我真的——他喜欢我讲这些故事。
He being Chris.
他就是克里斯。
Sally Gethard He thinks that they're hysterical.
莎莉·格哈德（Sally Gethard） 他认为他们歇斯底里。
But sometimes I felt like such a failure.
但有时我觉得自己很失败。
You know, why does my own kid hate me?
你知道为什么我自己的孩子讨厌我吗？
And just torment-- it broke my heart.
只是折磨——它伤透了我的心。
Sally had had it.
莎莉已经受够了。
She was crying every single day, not sure when or if Chris would ever stop being such a pain in the ass.
她每天都在哭泣，不知道克里斯什么时候或者是否会不再那么令人讨厌。
And then finally, one day Chris's dad Ken decided that he'd had it too.
最后，有一天克里斯的父亲肯决定他也受了这种病。
He came home, and my mom was crying.
他回到家，我妈妈在哭。
And I was walking around being all cocky about it.
我到处走来走去，对此感到非常自大。
And it was just like, enough's enough.
就好像，够了。
And he called Chris over, and he said to him--
他把克里斯叫过来，对他说——
All right, you.
好吧，你。
I've been telling you I'm going to take you down to the bad boys' home unless you straighten out.
我已经告诉过你，除非你改正过来，否则我会带你去坏男孩之家。
Now I'm taking you down.
现在我要把你拿下。
I made him get in the car with me.
我让他和我一起上车。
The bad boys' home.
坏孩子们的家。
It wasn't a real place, of course.
当然，那不是一个真实的地方。
But just about a mile away from Sally and Ken's house, right on Main Street in West Orange, were these old factories where Thomas Edison used to have a complex.
但距离莎莉和肯的家大约一英里，就在西奥兰治的大街上，有这些旧工厂，托马斯·爱迪生曾经在那里拥有一座综合大楼。
It's a national historic park now where you can see Edison's old lab.
现在它是一个国家历史公园，在那里你可以看到爱迪生的旧实验室。
There are phonographs and movie cameras and all sorts of stuff he made there.
那里有留声机、电影摄影机以及他制作的各种东西。
But right next to the Edison complex is a bunch of blooming, degrading, totally abandoned warehouse buildings that Edison left behind.
但就在爱迪生综合大楼旁边，有一堆爱迪生留下的蓬勃发展、破败不堪、完全废弃的仓库建筑。
Those buildings, they were where Ken was taking Chris.
那些建筑物就是肯带克里斯去的地方。
And I drove up to the back of them.
我把车开到他们后面。
All right, you want to be a bad boy.
好吧，你想做个坏孩子。
This is where you have to live now.
这就是你现在必须居住的地方。
And I opened the door.
我打开了门。
He was like get out!
他就像滚出去！
Get out!
出去！
Get out of the car!
下车吧！
And I was like, I don't want to!
我当时想，我不想！
And he was yelling at me to get out.
他还对我大喊大叫，让我滚出去。
And apparently at one point I went, I want to go home!
显然有一次我去了，我想回家！
And he yelled, this is your own home now!
他大喊，这里现在是你自己的家了！
This is the bad boys' home.
这是坏孩子们的家。
This is where the bad boys live.
这就是坏孩子们住的地方。
You're a bad boy.
你是个坏孩子。
This is your home now.
现在这里就是你的家了。
You live here now!
你现在住在这里！
And I always remember the story being that he put me out of the car and started to drive away.
我一直记得这个故事，他把我从车里拿出来，然后开始开车离开。
That's not true.
那不是真的。
Jonathan Menjivar That part's not true, OK.
乔纳森·门吉瓦（Jonathan Menjivar）：那部分不是真的，好吧。
No, that part's not true.
不，那部分不是真的。
Chris Gethard I mean, he very clearly made me think he was going to leave me inside this abandoned warehouse.
克里斯·格哈德（Chris Gethard），我的意思是，他非常明显地让我认为他要把我留在这个废弃的仓库里。
I'm not real proud that I did this.
我并不为自己做了这件事感到自豪。
But when you're dealing with a three-year-old, logic doesn't always apply.
但当你面对一个三岁的孩子时，逻辑并不总是适用。
Whoa, dude.
哇，伙计。
Whoa.
哇哦。
Jonathan Menjivar I wanted to see the bad boys' home, so I asked Chris to take me out to West Orange, back behind the old warehouses.
乔纳森·门吉瓦（Jonathan Menjivar） 我想参观坏男孩的家，所以我请克里斯带我去西奥兰治，回到旧仓库后面。
They're five stories tall, lots of broken windows.
它们有五层楼高，很多窗户都破了。
This is worse than I remember.
这比我记忆中的还要糟糕。
There's bullet holes.
有弹孔。
Those are bullet holes.
这些都是弹孔。
There's multiple bullet holes.
有多处弹孔。
You told me I had to live here.
你告诉我我必须住在这里。
This is insane.
这太疯狂了。
I'm really glad we came here.
我真的很高兴我们来到这里。
I'm glad this is still standing.
我很高兴这仍然存在。
I don't think I've been on this block since that night.
我想自从那天晚上以来我就没有去过这个街区了。
I don't think I've actually been behind this building.
我想我实际上并没有在这座大楼后面。
And it's just so funny, because I know my dad, and he's so nice.
这真是太有趣了，因为我认识我的爸爸，而且他非常好。
It's just so amazing to me that three decades ago, there was a night filled with such rage that we were back here, and he was screaming at me.
三十年前的一个夜晚，我们回到这里，他对我尖叫，这让我感到非常惊讶。
I must have been such a nightmare for that to have to happen.
我一定是一场噩梦才会发生这样的事。
That is terrifying.
那太可怕了。
This is not cool.
这不酷。
Parents, take note-- the bad boys' home, this entire scheme, it did not work on baby Chris.
父母们，请注意——坏男孩之家，这整个计划，对婴儿克里斯不起作用。
It scared him.
这让他害怕。
But after a couple days, he went right back to his devilish ways.
但几天后，他又回到了他的邪恶之路。
And then, when Sally sent Chris to preschool, the old Chris just disappeared.
然后，当莎莉送克里斯去幼儿园时，原来的克里斯就消失了。
He turned into a nice little boy.
他变成了一个乖巧的小男孩。
He made friends, didn't bite anyone.
他交了朋友，没有咬任何人。
He was sweet with Sally.
他对莎莉很甜蜜。
The idea that she maintained any affection for me is a miracle.
她对我保持着感情真是一个奇迹。
And I'm actually now-- I'm like a mama's boy.
事实上，我现在——我就像一个妈妈的儿子。
I once broke up with a girl because she accused me of having an oedipal complex.
我曾经和一个女孩分手，因为她指责我有恋母情结。
That's how much--
就是这样——
Really?
真的吗？
Chris Gethard --I love my mom.
克里斯·格哈德——我爱我的妈妈。
She was wrong.
她错了。
I want to be very clear.
我想说得很清楚。
I do not have an oedipal complex.
我没有恋母情结。
But my mother and I are really kind of insanely close right now and have been for most of my life.
但我和我的母亲现在真的非常亲密，而且在我一生的大部分时间里都是如此。
It was just this one to two year stretch where I really challenged her to have love for me, based on how I behaved.
正是在这一到两年的时间里，我真正挑战她根据我的行为方式来爱我。
Chris is a comic now, and he's still doing outlandish things.
克里斯现在是一名喜剧演员，但他仍然在做一些稀奇古怪的事情。
But the only person they're hurting is Chris himself.
但他们唯一伤害的人是克里斯本人。
Recently he burned his body slightly from frostbite after sitting on stage for 45 minutes, completely nude in a tub of ice cream and chocolate sauce.
最近，他全裸地坐在一桶冰淇淋和巧克力酱中，在舞台上坐了 45 分钟后，身体因冻伤而轻微烧伤。
He was supposed to be a human sundae.
他应该是一个人类圣代。
You could even take a bite if you wanted.
如果你愿意的话，你甚至可以咬一口。
It was gross and weird and maybe a little scary and funny, everything Chris Gethard has wanted to be since he was a little boy.
这很恶心、很奇怪，也许还有点害怕和有趣，这一切都是克里斯·格哈德从小就想成为的。
Jonathan Menjivar is one of the producers of our program.
乔纳森·门吉瓦尔 (Jonathan Menjivar) 是我们节目的制作人之一。
Chris Gethard's first comedy album, called "My Comedy Album," comes out next month.
克里斯·格哈德的第一张喜剧专辑《我的喜剧专辑》将于下个月发行。
Coming up, a kid runs the cost-benefit analysis of getting spanked and comes out for spanking.
接下来，一个孩子对被打屁股进行了成本效益分析，并出来接受打屁股。
More "Bad Babies" in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续时，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将播出更多“坏宝贝”。
ACT 4:
第四幕：
This American Life, I'm Ira Glass.
这个美国生活，我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, "Bad Babies," stories of people trying to figure out what to do so their kids are not so bad.
今天的节目“坏宝宝”讲述了人们试图弄清楚该怎么做才能让他们的孩子不那么坏的故事。
And the question with some kids, is there nothing you can do?
还有一些孩子的问题是，你无能为力吗？
We've arrived at act four of our show.
我们已经到了演出的第四幕了。
Act Four, This is Gonna Hurt Me a Lot More Than It's Going to Hurt You.
第四幕，这对我的伤害远大于对你的伤害。
About a year ago, there was this story in the news about a man in his early 30s who was going to be adopted by his long-lost foster mom, now that he was an adult.
大约一年前，新闻里有这样一个故事，讲述了一名三十岁出头的男子，现在已经成年，将被失散多年的养母收养。
They hadn't seen each other in a long time.
他们已经很久没有见面了。
On the CNN story about this, they met up at the airport.
在美国有线电视新闻网（CNN）对此的报道中，他们在机场见面。
It was all hugs and kisses.
全都是拥抱和亲吻。
The man is Maurice Griffin.
这个人就是莫里斯·格里芬。
The mom in the story is Lisa Godbold, though she was Lisa Harris way back when Maurice lived with her.
故事中的母亲是丽莎·戈德博德，尽管她是莫里斯和她住在一起时的丽莎·哈里斯。
The TV report said that they had been pried apart.
电视报道称他们已被撬开。
That is, Maurice had been removed from Lisa's home by the foster care system.
也就是说，莫里斯已经被寄养系统从丽莎的家中带走了。
One of our producers, Sean Cole, caught this story on CNN when it aired.
我们的制片人之一肖恩·科尔 (Sean Cole) 在 CNN 播出时看到了这个故事。
And there was something about it that stuck with him.
这件事让他印象深刻。
Something that confused me, actually.
实际上，有些事情让我感到困惑。
It was the reason Lisa and Maurice have been pride apart, which when I first heard about it, seemed to upend the very physics of both parenting and being a kid.
这就是丽莎和莫里斯感到自豪的原因，当我第一次听说这件事时，这似乎颠覆了养育子女和作为孩子的物理原理。
The short version is that Maurice, when he was eight or nine years old, asked Lisa and her husband, his foster parents, to spank him when he was bad.
简而言之，莫里斯八九岁的时候，要求丽莎和她的丈夫，也就是他的养父母，在他表现不好的时候打他屁股。
In the TV story, Lisa says he very much wanted that which, A, I found hard to believe, and B, what mother and child, foster or otherwise, have a rational discussion about the rules of engagement for when he misbehaves?
在电视故事中，丽莎说他非常希望，A，我觉得很难相信，B，什么母亲和孩子，寄养或其他方式，对他行为不端时的订婚规则进行理性的讨论？
And that was just number one on a list of a million questions I suddenly had.
这只是我突然提出的一百万个问题清单中的第一个问题。
Mom, what time do you want to be done with this?
妈妈，你想什么时候做完这件事？
So I went out to visit them in San Jose, where Lisa lives, and they told me the story starts around 1983 or '84.
于是我去丽莎居住的圣何塞拜访了他们，他们告诉我故事开始于 1983 年或 84 年左右。
Lisa says she never even considered being a foster mom or adopting until she heard about Maurice.
丽莎说，在听说莫里斯之前，她从未考虑过成为一名养母或收养孩子。
He was only three or four at that point, staying in a group home.
那时他只有三四岁，住在集体之家。
I just remember that he was a really adorable little boy-- kind of shy and a little bit skittish.
我只记得他是一个非常可爱的小男孩——有点害羞，还有点胆怯。
And I fell in love.
我坠入爱河了。
I'll be honest.
我会说实话。
I mean, my parents were taken out of the situation altogether.
我的意思是，我的父母完全摆脱了这种情况。
There was no chance of me going back to them, because of the abuse.
由于虐待，我没有机会回到他们身边。
They had abused you?
他们虐待过你吗？
Maurice Griffin I don't remember, but I'm pretty sure there was abuse.
莫里斯·格里芬 我不记得了，但我很确定有虐待行为。
Almost immediately, Lisa thought her family would be a great fit for Maurice, partly because Lisa's white and her husband, Charles Harris, who's passed away now, was black.
丽莎几乎立刻就认为她的家庭非常适合莫里斯，部分原因是丽莎是白人，而她现已去世的丈夫查尔斯·哈里斯是黑人。
So their sons were mixed race.
所以他们的儿子是混血儿。
Maurice is mixed race.
莫里斯是混血儿。
Looking at a picture of the three boys, you'd never guess which one came from a group home.
看着这三个男孩的照片，你永远猜不到哪一个来自集体之家。
The Harrises started visiting him once a month.
哈里斯夫妇开始每月拜访他一次。
Really, after about the third visit, we were just like, let's just get on with this.
真的，大约第三次访问之后，我们就想，让我们继续吧。
Let's just be a regular family.
就让我们做一个普通的家庭吧。
And maybe we were naive, but we just did not feel that he was this very troubled, very damaged kid.
也许我们很天真，但我们只是不觉得他是一个非常麻烦、非常受伤的孩子。
We just really felt like he needed very specific attention, and he needed good boundaries.
我们真的觉得他需要非常具体的关注，他需要良好的界限。
But for some bureaucratic reason, it took five years to get Maurice released into the Harrises' care.
但由于某些官僚原因，莫里斯花了五年时间才被释放并交由哈里斯夫妇照顾。
During that time, they went through the orientation and licensing process to become foster parents and started taking in other foster kids to get some experience.
在那段时间里，他们完成了成为养父母的培训和许可程序，并开始收养其他寄养孩子以获得一些经验。
In orientation, they learned that California law prohibits using corporal punishment on foster children-- no spanking.
在培训中，他们了解到加州法律禁止对寄养儿童使用体罚——禁止打屁股。
And spanking, Lisa says, was a value in the Harris household.
丽莎说，打屁股是哈里斯一家的价值观。
They were Christians and firmly believed "he that spares the rod hates his son, but he that loves him, chastens him betimes." That's from Proverbs 13.
他们都是基督徒，坚信“不打儿子的，是恨他的儿子；爱儿子的，必及时管教”。这是出自箴言 13 章。
Betimes just means early.
Betimes只是意味着早。
Moreover, Lisa says her husband, Charles, truly felt that if his sons weren't disciplined this way, they could actually be in jeopardy later on.
此外，丽莎说她的丈夫查尔斯真心觉得，如果他的儿子们不这样管教，他们以后实际上可能会陷入危险。
You know, my husband came from a place where, living in the segregated South, disobeying your parents or disobeying a teacher or disobeying the white man could cost you your life.
你知道，我丈夫来自一个生活在种族隔离的南方的地方，不服从父母、不服从老师或不服从白人可能会夺去你的生命。
My husband saw lynchings.
我丈夫亲眼目睹了私刑。
It was his core belief that sometimes, especially a boy, needs to be spanked, because the world doesn't give timeouts.
他的核心信念是，有时，尤其是男孩，需要被打屁股，因为世界不会给予暂停。
I'm sure you have your opinions on spanking.
我相信你对打屁股有自己的看法。
I have my opinions on spanking.
对于打屁股，我有自己的看法。
To state the obvious, it's a hugely controversial issue, even though a Harris Poll last year showed 80% of American households think spanking is appropriate sometimes.
显而易见的是，这是一个极具争议性的问题，尽管去年的哈里斯民意调查显示 80% 的美国家庭认为有时打屁股是适当的。
That said, there are entire anti-spanking organizations who will point to countless studies about the negative effects of spanking on kids.
也就是说，有很多反打屁股组织会指出无数关于打屁股对孩子的负面影响的研究。
There's also an army of pro-spankers readily available to debate those folks.
还有一群支持打屁股的人随时可以与这些人辩论。
What's not up for debate, though, is that in California, spanking your own children-- be they biological or adopted-- was and is legal, as long as it's not excessive and you don't leave a mark.
不过，没有争议的是，在加利福尼亚州，打自己的孩子——无论是亲生的还是收养的——过去和现在都是合法的，只要不过度并且不留下痕迹。
And the Harrises spanked their kids, but only under certain circumstances.
哈里斯夫妇打孩子屁股，但只是在某些情况下。
It was always related to one of two things-- outright defiance.
它总是与两件事之一有关——彻底的反抗。
You were told specifically to do something and you specifically did not do it.
有人专门告诉你去做某事，但你却没有去做。
You might get a spanking.
你可能会被打屁股。
And then the second thing was safety.
第二件事是安全。
And Lord knows that young boys do lots of things that are dangerous.
天知道，小男孩会做很多危险的事情。
Just so I'm clear, when we're talking about spanking, are we talking about like Dennis the Menace, like I'll put you over my knee and whack you on the bottom?
我想清楚的是，当我们谈论打屁股时，我们是在谈论像威胁丹尼斯那样的事情，比如我会把你放在我的膝盖上，然后打你的屁股吗？
We had a little-- you know those little balls that have the--
我们有一点——你知道那些小球有——
It was a ping pong paddle.
那是一个乒乓球拍。
Lisa Godbold No, it wasn't a ping pong paddle.
丽莎·戈德博德：不，这不是乒乓球拍。
It's a--
这是一个——
It's a toy that turns out to be surprisingly hard to describe.
事实证明，这是一个难以描述的玩具。
But you've it.
但你已经做到了。
It's a paddle with a rubber ball attached to it by an elastic band.
它是一个桨，上面有一个用松紧带连接的橡胶球。
They took off the ball.
他们把球拿走了。
Three swats on the butt, and that was it.
屁股上拍三下，就这样了。
With some talking before and after to make sure you understood why it was happening.
在之前和之后进行一些交谈，以确保您理解为什么会发生这种情况。
But since they weren't allowed to spank Maurice, the Harrises came up with a bunch of alternative punishments for him.
但由于他们不被允许打莫里斯的屁股，哈里斯夫妇为他想出了一系列替代性的惩罚措施。
I had to pull weeds in their backyard.
我不得不在他们的后院拔除杂草。
So that took hours.
所以这花了几个小时。
I'll never have a garden.
我永远不会有花园。
Mom knows that.
妈妈知道这一点。
[LAUGHS] And push ups, and essays-- so they were all very time consuming.
[笑]还有俯卧撑和论文——所以它们都非常耗时。
So spanking was a no brainer for me.
所以打屁股对我来说是理所当然的。
You know, you get your spanking.
你知道，你会挨打。
You reflect for five minutes.
你思考了五分钟。
And then you go out the door and get to playing again.
然后你走出门，再次开始玩耍。
It takes a pretty shrewd little kid to do a cost-benefit analysis on spanking.
需要一个相当精明的小孩才能对打屁股进行成本效益分析。
But the minimal time commitment it requires was actually the smaller issue for Maurice.
但对于莫里斯来说，所需的最少时间投入实际上是一个较小的问题。
Not being spanked like his foster brothers set him apart.
不像他的养兄弟那样被打屁股，这让他与众不同。
It put the emphasis on foster instead of brother.
它强调寄养而不是兄弟。
And then it wasn't just the way they were punished.
而且这不仅仅是他们受到惩罚的方式。
His brothers-- Gideon and Spencer were their names-- they got to do fun things that Maurice didn't.
他的兄弟——吉迪恩和斯宾塞——他们必须做莫里斯没有做的有趣的事情。
Like they would sit in the front seat if Mom wasn't there.
就像如果妈妈不在的话他们就会坐在前座一样。
Spencer got to sit in the front seat.
斯宾塞坐在前排座位上。
At nine years old, this was a big deal.
在九岁的时候，这是一件大事。
Dad had a drop-top Mustang.
爸爸有一辆敞篷野马。
I wanted to sit in the front seat.
我想坐在前排座位上。
Spencer got to sit in the front seat because he was the oldest.
斯宾塞坐在前排，因为他是最年长的。
But Maurice was actually a little older than Spencer.
但莫里斯实际上比斯宾塞年长一点。
Spencer also got to go with his dad to the flea market at 5:00 in the morning on weekends.
周末，斯宾塞还必须在早上 5:00 和他的爸爸一起去跳蚤市场。
Maurice would wake up and watch them leave together.
莫里斯会醒来，看着他们一起离开。
It wasn't fair.
这不公平。
Now adopting Maurice had been the plan all along.
现在收养莫里斯一直是我们的计划。
And at one point, Lisa and Charles asked him how he felt about the idea, just to make sure that's what he wanted too.
有一次，丽莎和查尔斯问他对这个想法有何感想，只是为了确保这也是他想要的。
At which point Maurice basically said, OK, here are my terms.
莫里斯基本上说，好吧，这是我的条件。
And I said to them, and I think I kind of threw them off, was that I wanted to be treated like your real sons.
我对他们说，我想我想被像你们亲生儿子一样对待，这让他们感到厌烦。
And they thought that they been.
他们也这么认为。
They'd show me their love and whatnot.
他们会向我展示他们的爱等等。
And I said, well, there were certain things.
我说，好吧，有一些事情。
You know, I want to ride shotgun every once in a while.
你知道，我每隔一段时间就想骑一把霰弹枪。
And I wanted to be able to go with Dad by myself once in a while.
我希望能够偶尔和爸爸一起去。
And I don't want to have to do push ups.
我不想做俯卧撑。
If they get a spanking, I'd rather just get a spanking, not have to do push ups or pull weeds, because I don't think that's fair.
如果他们挨打，我宁愿挨打，也不必做俯卧撑或拔草，因为我认为这不公平。
It was really all about fairness.
这确实是为了公平。
That was really what the conversation was about.
这就是谈话的真正内容。
That's all I remember about the conversation.
这就是我对这次谈话的全部记忆。
Is that what you remember?
那是你记得的吗？
Maurice Griffin Absolutely.
莫里斯·格里芬 绝对的。
They both told me is our real sons do get spanked.
他们都告诉我，我们亲生的儿子确实会被打屁股。
And basically I'm saying, yes, please.
基本上我的意思是，是的，拜托。
It actually caused Lisa and Charles a lot of stress.
这实际上给丽莎和查尔斯带来了很大的压力。
They thought they should spank him sometimes.
他们认为有时应该打他屁股。
Suddenly he thought they should spank him sometimes.
突然他觉得他们有时应该打他屁股。
And yet they knew the rules.
但他们知道规则。
They finally decided to consider it as a possibility.
他们最终决定考虑这种可能性。
Spanking was a pretty rare occasion in the Harris household anyway.
无论如何，打屁股在哈里斯家里是很少见的。
But then there was this one time, Christmas.
但还有一次，圣诞节。
I can tell that story.
我可以讲那个故事。
Sean Cole Please.
肖恩·科尔请。
Yes, this is at grandma's house.
是的，这是在奶奶家。
I'm pretty sure--
我很确定——
Maurice and Spencer tried to fix a broken yo-yo string by melting tape around the two ends.
莫里斯和斯宾塞试图通过熔化两端的胶带来修复断裂的溜溜球绳。
It melted and dripped onto the carpet.
它融化并滴到地毯上。
It smouldered a spot in the carpet.
它在地毯上闷烧了一个地方。
And--
还有——
And?
还有？
And?
和？
Lisa Godbold He got a spanking.
丽莎·戈德博德 他挨了打屁股。
I got a spanking.
我挨了打屁股。
Sean Cole Did it hurt?
肖恩·科尔 受伤了吗？
Ah, it was punishment.
啊，原来是惩罚啊。
It's not supposed to feel good.
这不应该感觉很好。
But it wasn't abusive.
但这并不是虐待。
Was it better than push ups and pulling weeds?
它比俯卧撑和拔草更好吗？
Yes.
是的。
Sean Cole Which, to be clear, he still had to do sometimes.
肖恩·科尔（Sean Cole） 需要明确的是，有时他仍然必须这样做。
All of the various punishments applied to all the kids now.
现在所有的各种惩罚都适用于所有的孩子。
And they might have gone on that way if nobody had said anything.
如果没有人说什么，他们可能会继续这样下去。
But as shrewd as Maurice was, he was still nine years old, and he was still getting monthly visits from one of his social workers.
尽管莫里斯很精明，但他仍然只有九岁，而且每月仍然会有一位社会工作者来探望他。
So she came and asked how everything's going.
于是她过来询问一切进展如何。
And I said everything was going great.
我说一切都很顺利。
The conversation about adoption had come up.
关于收养的话题出现了。
And she said, oh, so what does that entail?
她说，哦，那意味着什么呢？
And I said, oh, I get to sit in the front seat.
我说，哦，我可以坐在前排座位上。
I get to go to the flea market with Dad every other weekend, and said, yeah, and they're even spanking me.
我每隔一个周末就会和爸爸一起去跳蚤市场，然后说，是的，他们甚至打我屁股。
It was nonchalant.
这是漫不经心的。
So she was very interested in that.
所以她对此非常感兴趣。
Tell me more about that.
告诉我更多相关信息。
According to Lisa, this particular social worker was very anti-corporal punishment to begin with.
据丽莎说，这位特殊的社会工作者一开始就非常反对体罚。
Lisa says the woman got angry and adamant.
丽莎说，这名女子很生气，态度也很坚决。
And we said, well, we believe that we understand what is good for Maurice.
我们说，好吧，我们相信我们了解什么对莫里斯有好处。
And if we're going to adopt him, that we can treat him the same way that we treat our own children.
如果我们要收养他，我们可以像对待自己的孩子一样对待他。
And so then she said, well, so are you saying that you use corporal punishment on your own children?
然后她说，那么你是说你对自己的孩子使用体罚吗？
And we said, yes.
我们说，是的。
You know, we've always been very clear about that.
你知道，我们对此一直非常明确。
And she said, well, I'm not really even sure that that's legal.
她说，好吧，我什至不确定这是否合法。
And if you continue to do that, I may have to call in social services and examine your own family practices.
如果你继续这样做，我可能不得不打电话给社会服务机构并检查你自己的家庭行为。
Lisa says she got scared.
丽莎说她很害怕。
She was only 24 or 25 at the time.
当时她只有24或25岁。
It was she and her husband against this huge bureaucracy that, for all she knew, could take Gideon and Spencer, the other two boys, away from her, even though she knew spanking them was legal.
正是她和她的丈夫反对这个巨大的官僚机构，据她所知，这个官僚机构可以把吉迪恩和斯宾塞，另外两个男孩从她身边带走，尽管她知道打他们的屁股是合法的。
They considered lying.
他们考虑说谎。
OK, fine, we'll never spank Maurice.
好吧，好吧，我们永远不会打莫里斯屁股。
But that didn't seem right.
但这似乎不对。
Meanwhile, more and more voices on the social welfare side were getting involved.
与此同时，社会福利方面的声音也越来越多地参与其中。
Most of the conversation was, won't you please change your mind?
大多数谈话都是，你能改变主意吗？
Oh yeah, like just do this.
哦，是的，就像这样做。
You just need to do this.
你只需要这样做。
And we just felt like it wasn't right.
我们只是觉得这不对。
And you felt like it wasn't right because you were so hard on your convictions or because--
你觉得这不对，因为你对自己的信念如此坚定，或者因为——
It would make Maurice feel like he didn't belong.
这会让莫里斯觉得他不属于这里。
That was the most important thing.
这是最重要的事情。
So it wasn't so much based on, you know, oh we absolutely believe that God says that you should spank your children.
所以这并不是基于，你知道，哦，我们绝对相信上帝说你应该打你的孩子。
It wasn't that.
不是那样的。
It was the deeper issue of love means certain things to certain people.
这是更深层次的问题，爱对某些人来说意味着某些事情。
And you have to listen to the heart of your loved ones, whether it's your child or your spouse or your parents.
你必须倾听你所爱之人的心声，无论是你的孩子、你的配偶还是你的父母。
What love is to them, that's what it is.
爱对于他们来说就是这样。
I talked with one of the social workers who was on Maurice's case at the time-- not the one that got angry, another one.
我与当时负责莫里斯案件的一位社会工作者交谈过——不是那位生气的人，而是另一位。
She was much more pragmatic.
她更加务实。
She said she didn't understand why the Harrises didn't simply wait until the adoption went through to start spanking Maurice, not that she was recommending spanking.
她说她不明白为什么哈里斯夫妇不直接等到收养通过才开始打莫里斯的屁股，而不是她建议打屁股。
But Lisa said the adoption could have taken years.
但丽莎表示，收养可能需要数年时间。
He might have been 17 by that time.
那时他可能已经17岁了。
Both of them told me the whole situation was heartbreaking.
他们俩都告诉我整个情况令人心碎。
Maurice, of course, didn't know any of this was happening.
莫里斯当然不知道发生了这一切。
All he remembers is one of the social workers showing up again for one of their check ins.
他只记得一名社会工作者再次出现在他们的一次登记中。
I was in the living room, but my back was to where the door was, was like right here.
我在客厅，但我的背对着门的地方，就像就在这里一样。
And so she was talking with me so that I couldn't see what was going on behind me.
所以她和我说话，这样我就看不到身后发生了什么。
And at first, it was, how's everything going?
一开始，一切进展得怎么样？
I'm saying great.
我说的是太好了
Everything's awesome.
一切都很棒。
And then it was like some small talk.
然后就像是一些闲聊。
And then it was like, do you want to go to McDonald's?
然后就好像，你想去麦当劳吗？
Maurice got in the car, not knowing that all of his belongings were already in the trunk.
莫里斯上了车，并不知道他所有的东西都已经在后备箱里了。
The caseworker didn't break the news to him until they were on the freeway.
直到他们上了高速公路，社工才告诉他这个消息。
Is an eight or nine-year-old kid equipped to, in any way, help determine how he or she should be disciplined?
一个八九岁的孩子是否有能力以任何方式帮助决定他或她应该如何受到纪律处分？
You know, that's a really good question that I've thought about since knowing that we were going to do this interview.
你知道，这是一个非常好的问题，自从知道我们要进行这次采访以来我一直在思考这个问题。
Looking back now, I would probably say no, especially knowing the gravity of what would happen to him afterward.
现在回想起来，我可能会说不，尤其是知道他之后会发生的事情的严重性。
No. The flip side is, had we not and he did stay in our home but continued to feel unequal, I don't know what those consequences would have been for him emotionally either.
不。另一方面，如果我们没有留在我们家，而他确实留在我们家里，但仍然感到不平等，我也不知道这些后果会对他的情感产生什么影响。
I don't have the answer.
我没有答案。
From there, Maurice bounded around from group home, to foster home, to group home.
从那里，莫里斯从集体之家跳到寄养之家，再到集体之家。
He was basically wild, always acting out.
他基本上很狂野，总是表现得很狂野。
The Harrises were able to visit him at first and talk to him on the phone.
哈里斯夫妇最初能够拜访他并通过电话与他交谈。
And after those phone calls and visits, he'd really act out, frustrated that he couldn't stay with them.
在那些电话和拜访之后，他真的会表现得很糟糕，因为自己不能和他们呆在一起而感到沮丧。
Lisa says the house parents at one facility did a kind of backwards math, figured the Harrises were causing his outbursts somehow.
丽莎说，一个设施的寄宿家长做了一种倒算，认为哈里斯夫妇在某种程度上导致了他的爆发。
Suddenly they weren't able to bring him home for Thanksgiving or Christmas.
突然间，他们无法带他回家过感恩节或圣诞节。
And little by little, they lost touch completely.
渐渐地，他们完全失去了联系。
Maurice's main caseworker kept trying to find a solid living situation for him.
莫里斯的主要社会工作者一直在努力为他寻找稳定的生活条件。
She was never really able to.
她从来没有真正能够做到。
But they wanted to.
但他们想这么做。
They really wanted me to be happy somewhere else.
他们真的希望我在其他地方快乐。
That's why they kept putting me in a lot of foster homes.
这就是为什么他们不断把我安置在很多寄养家庭中。
But that was like I was cheating on my family.
但这就像我欺骗了我的家人。
I have a family.
我有一个家庭。
Why are you trying to give me another one?
你为什么想再给我一份？
In my young mind, I just thought that if I don't behave anywhere that I'll be back with my family.
在我年轻的头脑中，我只是想，如果我在任何地方都不表现得很好，我就会回到家人身边。
Oh, so if you were impossible to care for--
哦，所以如果你无法被照顾——
Right, impossible.
对啊，不可能。
And I was impossible.
而我是不可能的。
They'll run out of places to send me and send me home.
他们将没有地方送我并送我回家。
By the time he was about 16, Maurice was so out of control he wound up in the military-style boot camp for troubled kids in Nevada.
大约 16 岁的时候，莫里斯已经完全失控，最终被送进了内华达州为问题儿童设立的军事训练营。
He wasn't spanked there, of course, but he says their restraint tactics were brutal.
当然，他并没有在那里被打屁股，但他说他们的限制策略非常残酷。
Police have investigated reports of abuse at this place in the past.
警方过去曾调查过该地点的虐待报告。
Maurice ultimately escaped.
莫里斯最终逃脱了。
He says the juvenile hall in Reno refused to send him back because of all of his bruises.
他说，里诺的少年管教所拒绝将他送回，因为他全身都有瘀伤。
I genuinely think that the juvenile system was trying to protect Maurice when it took him away from the Harrises.
我真诚地认为，当青少年系统将莫里斯从哈里斯一家带走时，他是在试图保护他。
But given what happened, it's hard to think that they succeeded.
但考虑到所发生的事情，很难认为他们成功了。
Around the time he turned 18, Maurice started actively-- not to say doggedly-- searching for the Harrises again.
大约在 18 岁那年，莫里斯开始积极地——甚至可以说是顽强地——再次寻找哈里斯一家。
He combed through phone books, searched all of their names online-- Lisa and Charles Harris separate, together, Gideon, Spencer.
他梳理了电话簿，在网上搜索了他们所有的名字——丽莎和查尔斯·哈里斯分开，在一起，吉迪恩，斯宾塞。
He even made a pilgrimage back to their house at one point, the house he grew up in for 18 months.
他甚至有一次回到他们的房子朝圣，那是他长大了 18 个月的房子。
They didn't live there anymore.
他们不再住在那里了。
This also happened to be around the time that Charles died of a heart attack.
这也恰好发生在查尔斯因心脏病去世的时间。
Lisa eventually got remarried and changed her name, moved to a different state.
丽莎最终再婚并改了名字，搬到了另一个州。
Maurice kept looking for her through college and after.
莫里斯在大学期间及毕业后一直在寻找她。
He never stopped.
他从未停止过。
And then finally, about 20 years after he first went to live with her, he opened up his Myspace account.
最后，在他第一次和她住在一起大约 20 年后，他开设了自己的 Myspace 帐户。
And there was a message from Lisa.
丽莎发来一条消息。
I sat there.
我坐在那里。
I just remember staring at the screen, like I've been looking for so long, and there she is.
我只记得盯着屏幕，就像我已经找了很久一样，她就在那里。
And I picked up the phone and I called the number.
我拿起电话，拨通了那个号码。
And she picked up, and she said, hi, son.
她接起电话，说，嗨，儿子。
And I said, I'm going to have to call you back.
我说，我得给你回电话。
I just hung up the phone.
我刚刚挂了电话。
It's hard to carry on a coherent conversation when you're crying your eyes out.
当你哭得眼泪汪汪的时候，很难进行连贯的谈话。
I really didn't know if he would even want to have any contact with me.
我真的不知道他是否愿意和我有任何联系。
I just assumed that he would look at me as another person that abandoned him.
我只是假设他会把我视为另一个抛弃他的人。
I mean, that's the way I would feel.
我的意思是，这就是我的感受。
But I think that every person, especially kids that are trying to survive in the system, they write a script for themselves.
但我认为每个人，尤其是那些试图在体制中生存的孩子，他们都为自己写了一个剧本。
And they play that script over and over again, and that's how they survive.
他们一遍又一遍地播放这个剧本，这就是他们生存的方式。
And I'm very blessed that the script that Maurice wrote for me is that I was his mom and I loved him.
我很幸运，莫里斯为我写的剧本是我是他的妈妈，我爱他。
It's so good.
太好了。
It sounds like you blame yourself more than he blames you.
听起来你责怪自己比他责备你还要多。
I do.
我愿意。
Sean Cole Can I stop for a second?
肖恩·科尔 我可以停下来一下吗？
Ah, yeah, maybe.
啊，是的，也许吧。
Sean Cole When I was interviewing them at Lisa's house, the lawn mower guy started making all this noise outside.
肖恩·科尔：当我在丽莎家采访他们时，割草工开始在外面发出各种噪音。
So we took a break.
所以我们休息了一下。
Maurice got up, grabbed a photograph, and brought it over.
莫里斯站起来，抓起一张照片，拿了过来。
It was a family shot, present day, Lisa standing next to all of her sons-- Gideon, Spencer, and Maurice.
这是一张今天的全家福，丽莎站在她所有的儿子——吉迪恩、斯宾塞和莫里斯旁边。
And even now--
甚至现在——
You really can't tell.
你真的说不出来。
Sean Cole I really, really can't tell.
肖恩·科尔 我真的、真的说不出来。
Really, really can't tell.
真的，真的说不出来。
Sean Cole You can't tell which one of them is adopted.
肖恩·科尔：你无法分辨其中哪一个是被收养的。
Sean Cole is one of the producers of our show.
肖恩·科尔是我们节目的制片人之一。
ACT 5:
行动 5：
Act Five, We Are Fine Parents.
第五幕，我们是好父母。
We close today's program with this fictional story of a bad baby by John Jodzio, read first by actress Sarah Mollo-Christensen.
我们以约翰·乔齐奥 (John Jodzio) 创作的关于坏孩子的虚构故事结束今天的节目，首先由女演员莎拉·莫洛·克里斯滕森 (Sarah Mollo-Christensen) 朗读。
Our baby swallowed a ninja star, and then it swallowed a bakelite button.
我们的宝宝吞下了一颗忍者之星，然后又吞下了一颗胶木纽扣。
It seemed fine, breathing and everything.
看起来一切都很好，呼吸等等。
We checked.
我们检查了。
We are fine parents.
我们是好父母。
We weren't too upset about the button, but the ninja start was one of my husband's favorites, really light, and made from this tungsten polymer that was said to be space age.
我们并没有对按钮感到太不安，但忍者启动器是我丈夫的最爱之一，非常轻，并且由据说是太空时代的钨聚合物制成。
He used it in the league that he was in on Thursday night.
他在周四晚上所在的联盟中使用了它。
"I'll never ever find another one like that again," he told me privately.
“我再也找不到这样的人了，”他私下告诉我。
The same thing happened with our nail clippers.
我们的指甲刀也发生了同样的事情。
One night I found the baby standing on top of our bathroom sink, rifling through the medicine cabinet.
一天晚上，我发现婴儿站在我们浴室水槽的顶部，正在翻找药柜。
"The nail clippers are gone," my husband told me, after taking stock.
“指甲刀不见了，”我丈夫清点了一下后告诉我。
"They were right here on this shelf, and now they're not." "Maybe you left them downstairs," I offered.
“它们本来就在这个架子上，但现在却不在了。” “也许你把它们留在楼下了，”我说道。
"Maybe you're mistaken.
“也许你错了。
Maybe you left them somewhere, and you forgot.
也许你把它们留在某个地方了，然后你就忘记了。
Maybe you were there one." My husband had just gotten out of bed, and his hair was matted down.
也许你也在场。”我丈夫刚刚起床，头发乱蓬蓬的。
It looked like when a helicopter comes down suddenly in high grass, pushed out in spots, flattened down in others.
看起来就像一架直升机突然降落在高高的草丛中，有的地方被推开，有的地方被压扁。
"Whose side are you on here?" he asked me.
“你在这里是哪一边的？”他问我。
"No one's," I told him, "and everyone's." Soon my husband and the baby were eying each other in a manner I did not like.
“没有人是，”我告诉他，“但每个人都是。”很快，我的丈夫和孩子就以一种我不喜欢的方式互相注视。
One afternoon, my husband searched the baby's bassinet.
一天下午，我丈夫搜查了婴儿的摇篮。
"This is a random search," he told the baby.
“这是一次随机搜索，”他告诉婴儿。
"It could occur at any time.
“它随时可能发生。
That's what random means, OK?" The baby took its revenge for the search by swallowing my husband's wrist watch.
这就是随机的意思，好吗？”婴儿为了报复搜查，吞下了我丈夫的手表。
"It's on," my husband told me.
“它已经开始了，”我丈夫告诉我。
"That was an heirloom." More things disappeared inside the baby-- pellets of rock salt, packs of Post-It notes, a diamond solitaire necklace-- gone, finito, see ya.
“那是传家宝。”更多的东西在婴儿体内消失了——岩盐颗粒、一包便利贴、一条钻石项链——消失了，结束了，再见。
Sometimes I put my head right up to the baby stomach, my ears to its skin, listened carefully to its innards to see if I heard any of these things moving along.
有时我把头放在婴儿的肚子上，耳朵贴在它的皮肤上，仔细听它的内脏，看看是否听到这些东西在移动。
Finally, I started leaving things out for the baby to swallow-- a puzzle piece with no matching puzzle, a broken half of a letter opener, a combination lock to which we'd forgotten the combination.
最后，我开始留下一些东西让宝宝吞下去——一块没有匹配的拼图的拼图，一把坏掉的开信刀，一把我们忘记了密码的密码锁。
I put these things in plain view.
我把这些东西放在了显眼的地方。
"Here," I said.
“在这里，”我说。
I gave the baby one of those sudden, "hey hey, over here" moves you give with your hands.
我给宝宝做了一个突然的动作，“嘿嘿，在这里”，就像你用手做的那样。
No dice.
没有骰子。
"Maybe it's just a phase," I offered later that night after the baby was asleep.
“也许这只是一个阶段，”那天晚上宝宝睡着后我说道。
"Maybe we'll look back on this and laugh." "Does this feel like a phase to you?" my husband asked.
“也许我们回顾这件事会大笑。” “这对你来说是一个阶段吗？”我丈夫问。
"To me, it feels like a calculated effort to strip us of our authority while simultaneously crushing our souls." I did not want to think badly of our baby, with its sleepy hazel eyes that resembled my husband's, with its mouth that was clearly mine.
“对我来说，这感觉就像是一场精心策划的行动，目的是剥夺我们的权威，同时摧毁我们的灵魂。”我不想对我们的孩子产生不好的印象，他那双昏昏欲睡的淡褐色眼睛很像我丈夫的，而他的嘴显然是我的。
That said, I'd seen too many looks of gleeful malice pass across its face not to wonder if this was a brilliant plan to drive us slowly insane.
话虽如此，我见过太多它脸上洋溢着欢乐、恶意的表情，我不禁怀疑这是否是一个让我们慢慢疯狂的绝妙计划。
"Maybe we could swallow something the baby loves," I said.
“也许我们可以吞下宝宝喜欢的东西，”我说。
"Maybe we could get the baby to understand us better if we stoop to its level." The next morning, my husband swallowed a slice of the baby's blankie.
“如果我们降低到婴儿的水平，也许我们可以让婴儿更好地理解我们。”第二天早上，我丈夫吞下了一块婴儿的毯子。
"We'll continue down this path until we agree to a truce," he explained to the baby.
“我们将继续沿着这条路走下去，直到我们同意休战，”他向婴儿解释道。
"A truce is an agreement between two parties to stop fighting, all right?" The baby squawked incoherently.
“休战是双方停止战斗的协议，好吗？”婴儿语无伦次地叫着。
It swallowed the salt shaker in protest.
它吞下了盐瓶以示抗议。
I'd had enough.
我已经受够了。
I picked up the baby's favorite stuffed animal, this elephant called Mr. Pickles.
我拿起了宝宝最喜欢的毛绒动物，这只大象叫皮克尔斯先生。
I motioned to my husband to come with me to the bathroom.
我示意老公跟我一起去洗手间。
The baby followed.
婴儿也跟着。
My husband held down the toilet handle.
我丈夫按住马桶把手。
I held Mr. Pickles over the bowl.
我把皮克尔斯先生举到碗上。
"I'll do it," I told the baby.
“我会做的，”我告诉宝宝。
"Don't think I won't." My hand was shaking, but the baby could tell I was serious.
“别以为我不会。”我的手在颤抖，但宝宝知道我是认真的。
Soon the baby's eyes softened.
很快，婴儿的眼神就柔和了。
It held out its arms.
它伸出了双臂。
"Truce?" my husband said.
“休战？”我丈夫说。
The baby nodded.
宝宝点点头。
My husband and I smiled and nodded at each other, happy to finally have leverage, and handed back Mr. Pickles to the baby.
我和丈夫微笑着互相点点头，很高兴终于有了影响力，然后把皮克尔斯先生还给了孩子。
"We are fine parents," we said, as we watched Mr. Pickles quickly disappear down the baby's throat.
“我们是好父母，”我们一边说，一边看着皮克尔斯先生很快消失在婴儿的喉咙里。
"Let's get some fresh air," my husband said the next day.
“我们去呼吸一下新鲜空气吧，”第二天我丈夫说。
We walked to a playground a few blocks away, put the baby in the sandbox.
我们走到几个街区外的操场，把婴儿放在沙箱里。
While we stood there, a little red-haired baby reached into a woman's purse and started to swallow things left and right-- bobby pins, a take out menu, her keys.
当我们站在那里时，一个红发小婴儿把手伸进一个女人的钱包里，开始左右吞咽东西——发夹、外卖菜单、她的钥匙。
The woman noticed us looking on.
那女人注意到我们在看。
"We thought we were the only ones," my husband said.
“我们以为我们是唯一的，”我丈夫说。
"You're not special," the woman laughed.
“你并不特别。”女人笑道。
"All of them do it." My husband and I looked around at the chaos of the playground.
“他们都这么做。”我和老公环顾四周，看着操场上一片混乱。
We saw the weary faces of the parents, the babies running rampant, the adults at their mercy.
我们看到父母疲惫的脸，孩子们肆意奔跑，成年人任由他们摆布。
Soon, our baby got bored with the sandbox and walked over to us.
很快，我们的宝宝厌倦了沙箱，向我们走过来。
He reached up for a hug and, of course, we hugged him.
他伸出手来拥抱，当然，我们也拥抱了他。
Sarah Mollo-Christensen, reading a short story by John Jodzio.
莎拉·莫洛-克里斯滕森（Sarah Mollo-Christensen）正在阅读约翰·乔齐奥（John Jodzio）的短篇小说。
He's the author of two short story collections, including If You Lived Here You'd Already Home, where a version of this story appeared.
他是两本短篇小说集的作者，其中包括《如果你住在这里，你就已经回家了》，其中出现了这个故事的一个版本。
ACT 6:
第六幕：
Our program was produced today by Sean Cole, Stephanie Foo, and me with Alex Blumberg, Ben Calhoun, Sarah Koenig, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjiva, Brian Reed, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
今天我们的节目由 Sean Cole、Stephanie Foo 和我与 Alex Blumberg、Ben Calhoun、Sarah Koenig、Miki Meek、Jonathan Menjiva、Brian Reed、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 共同制作。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder, production help from Alison Davis.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德（Julie Snyder），艾莉森·戴维斯（Alison Davis）为制作提供帮助。
Seth Lind is our operations director.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的运营总监。
Emily Condon is our production manager.
艾米丽·康登 (Emily Condon) 是我们的生产经理。
Elise Bergerson's our administrative assistant.
埃莉斯·伯格森是我们的行政助理。
Adrianne Mathiowetz runs our website.
阿德琳娜·马修韦茨 (Adrianne Mathiowetz) 负责运营我们的网站。
Research help from Michelle Harris, and Julie Beer, music help from Damien Graef and Rob Geddis.
米歇尔·哈里斯 (Michelle Harris) 和朱莉·比尔 (Julie Beer) 提供研究帮助，达米安·格雷夫 (Damien Graef) 和罗布·格迪斯 (Rob Geddis) 提供音乐帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website-- thisamericanlife.org.
[致谢] 我们的网站——thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia。
You know, he's a really adventurous guy.
你知道，他是一个非常喜欢冒险的人。
But we had dinner the other the night.
但那天晚上我们共进晚餐。
He was strangely afraid of the pate.
奇怪的是，他竟然害怕这个脑袋。
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。