519: Dead Men Tell No Tales - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #519 | March 7, 2014 519: Dead Men Tell No Tales Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 519 集 | 2014 年 3 月 7 日 519：死无对证 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass In May of last year, about a month after the bombings at the Boston Marathon, there was this weird news story-- maybe you saw this-- about a guy in Florida who was shot by an FBI agent.
序言 Ira Glass 去年 5 月，波士顿马拉松爆炸案发生大约一个月后，出现了这样一个奇怪的新闻故事——也许你看过这个——关于佛罗里达州一名男子被联邦调查局特工枪杀的故事。
We're getting word this morning about a shooting in Orlando, Florida.
今天早上我们收到有关佛罗里达州奥兰多发生枪击事件的消息。
It involves the FBI and a man who may have had ties to the Boston bombing suspects.
案件涉及联邦调查局和一名可能与波士顿爆炸案嫌疑人有联系的男子。
Our senior correspondent--
本台资深记者——
The shooting victim was a Chechen guy named Ibragim Todashev, and he'd known one of the guys accused in the Boston bombing.
枪击受害者是车臣人，名叫易卜拉吉姆·托达舍夫（Ibragim Todashev），他认识波士顿爆炸案中被指控的其中一名男子。
Ibragim Todashev was a friend of the older brother in that case, Tamerlan Tsarnaev.
易卜拉欣·托达舍夫（Ibragim Todashev）是哥哥塔梅尔兰·察纳耶夫（Tamerlan Tsarnaev）的朋友。
He was in contact with Tamerlan Tsarnaev.
他与塔梅尔兰·察尔纳耶夫保持着联系。
He had been to Boston to visit him, and he was planning a trip--
他去波士顿看望他，并且他正在计划一次旅行——
Remember that Tamerlan Tsarnaev was the older brother in the Boston Marathon case.
请记住，塔梅尔兰·察尔纳耶夫是波士顿马拉松案中的哥哥。
He's the one killed in a shootout in Watertown after that crazy car chase.
他是在那次疯狂的汽车追逐之后在沃特敦的枪战中丧生的人。
He's usually portrayed as the more radical brother in news reports.
在新闻报道中，他通常被描绘成更激进的兄弟。
That's who the Florida guy was buddies with.
这就是那个佛罗里达人的好朋友。
And the Florida guy was shot in his own apartment by the FBI seven times during an interview they were doing with him.
联邦调查局在对这名佛罗里达州男子进行采访时，在自己的公寓里连开七枪。
The FBI said almost nothing about this.
联邦调查局对此几乎只字不提。
But of course, there were leaks.
但当然，也有泄漏。
And officials tell us that the man attacked the FBI agent, who then shot and killed him.
官员们告诉我们，该男子袭击了联邦调查局特工，然后联邦调查局特工开枪打死了他。
Some reports said that he came at the agent with a knife.
有报道称，他持刀冲向特工。
Others said it was a pole.
也有人说是一根柱子。
Others said a broomstick, maybe a sword.
其他人说是扫帚，也可能是剑。
And the story was leaked to the press by law enforcement was that before the FBI shot this guy, Ibrahim Todashev, he confessed to something.
执法部门向媒体泄露的故事是，在联邦调查局枪杀这个名叫易卜拉欣·托达舍夫的家伙之前，他承认了一些事情。
He implicated himself and the alleged Boston bomber in a crime, a gruesome crime, a triple murder of three drug dealers who were killed gangland style in a Boston suburb two years earlier, long before the marathon bombings.
他将自己和所谓的波士顿爆炸案嫌疑人卷入了一起犯罪事件，这是一起可怕的犯罪事件，是对三名毒贩的三重谋杀，这三名毒贩两年前在波士顿郊区以黑帮方式被杀害，远在马拉松爆炸案发生之前。
According to the leaks, this guy in Florida was just about to write out a confession when he freaked out, attacked a federal agent, and they had to shoot him to death.
据爆料称，佛罗里达州的这名男子正要写一份认罪书，突然惊慌失措，袭击了一名联邦特工，他们不得不开枪打死他。
Weird, right?
很奇怪，对吧？
The FBI kills somebody in his own home and then says, sure, we killed him.
联邦调查局在他自己家里杀了一个人，然后说，当然，我们杀了他。
But, you know, he was a murderer.
但是，你知道，他是一个杀人犯。
He confessed to it.
他承认了这一点。
OK, well, we don't have a recording or a signed confession, but believe us, he really did it.
好吧，我们没有录音或签名的认罪书，但请相信我们，他确实做到了。
As one editorial put it in a suburban Massachusetts paper, quote, "When a key witness to a serious crime is killed during questioning, people deserve to know why." When prosecutors say he revealed a critical fact before he was killed, people expect proof.
正如马萨诸塞州郊区报纸上的一篇社论所言，“当严重犯罪的关键证人在审问期间被杀时，人们应该知道原因。”当检察官称他在被杀前透露了一个关键事实时，人们期待证据。
The father of Ibragim Todashev-- the guy the FBI killed in Florida-- held a press conference calling for answers, and he pointed out it was hard to understand why federal agents would need to actually kill his son.
联邦调查局在佛罗里达州杀害的易卜拉吉姆·托达舍夫的父亲召开了一场新闻发布会，要求答案，他指出很难理解为什么联邦特工需要真正杀死他的儿子。
He spoke in Russian.
他用俄语说话。
Even if he lost his temper and became violent, they could have restrained him or wounded him, shoot him in the leg or the arm or the shoulder.
即使他发脾气并变得暴力，他们也可以限制他或打伤他，向他的腿、手臂或肩膀开枪。
But what happened was murder.
但所发生的却是谋杀。
Maybe my son knew something the police didn't want to come out, and they killed him to keep him silent.
也许我儿子知道一些警察不想公开的事情，他们杀了他以让他保持沉默。
Theories sprang up.
各种理论纷纷涌现。
On the more conspiracy-ish side of things, there had already been persistent rumors that the alleged Boston bomber, Tamerlan Tsarnaev, had been an FBI informant.
从更具阴谋性的一面来看，一直有传言称波士顿爆炸案嫌疑人塔梅尔兰·察尔纳耶夫(Tamerlan Tsarnaev)是联邦调查局(FBI)的线人。
Maybe this guy in Florida knew something about that and they wanted to shut him up.
也许佛罗里达州的这个人知道一些事情，他们想让他闭嘴。
These theories were especially rife in Boston, where the FBI has colluded with its criminal informants in the past.
这些理论在波士顿尤其盛行，联邦调查局过去曾与那里的犯罪线人勾结。
At the very least, people wondered if the FBI was being so silent about the incident because it didn't want to admit its own blunders during the interrogation, blunders that led them to shoot a man seven times.
至少，人们怀疑联邦调查局对这一事件如此沉默是因为它不想承认自己在审讯过程中犯下的错误，这些错误导致他们向一名男子开枪七次。
The Boston Globe, Boston Herald, and dozens of other newspapers have called for an explanation of how and why this happened.
《波士顿环球报》、《波士顿先驱报》和其他数十家报纸呼吁对此事发生的方式和原因做出解释。
The Washington Post declared, "The last thing the US government needs is to fuel wild conspiracy theories.
《华盛顿邮报》宣称：“美国政府最不需要的就是助长疯狂的阴谋论。
The Obama administration must move heaven and earth to get to the bottom of what happened and make it public, quickly."
奥巴马政府必须竭尽全力查明到底发生了什么，并迅速将其公之于众。”
And the FBI promised to clear the air.
联邦调查局也承诺澄清此事。
They promised an investigation into the shooting.
他们承诺对枪击事件进行调查。
That was last May.
那是去年五月的事了。
Since then, officials keep saying, essentially, it's coming, it's coming.
从那时起，官员们一直说，本质上，它即将到来，它即将到来。
Now it has been nine months, and still, nothing.
现在已经九个月了，仍然没有任何进展。
Nine months.
九个月。
At this point, the mother of one of the men killed in that triple murder now agrees with the dad you heard-- the dad whose son supposedly committed the murder, murdered her son-- that things don't seem to add up.
在这一点上，在那起三重谋杀案中被杀的一名男子的母亲现在同意你听到的父亲的观点——据称儿子犯下谋杀罪的父亲谋杀了她的儿子——事情似乎不合逻辑。
This mom, Bellie Hacker, wonders why would the FBI kill the one person who could shed light on who murdered her kid?
这位名叫贝莉·哈克（Bellie Hacker）的妈妈想知道为什么联邦调查局要杀死一个能够查出谋杀她孩子的凶手的人？
I know there's some sort of a cover up somewhere.
我知道某处有某种掩盖。
I don't know what it is, and I don't have any theories about it.
我不知道它是什么，也没有任何理论。
But it's too strange.
但这也太奇怪了。
A full and swift release of information would clear the air about that.
全面而迅速地发布信息将澄清这一点。
Massachusetts congressman Bill Keating sits on the Homeland Security committee, and he says that in general, when it comes to anything related to the Boston bombing, the FBI is peculiarly unforthcoming, much worse than any other law enforcement agencies when giving out information.
马萨诸塞州国会议员比尔·基廷是国土安全委员会的成员，他表示，总的来说，当涉及到与波士顿爆炸案有关的任何事情时，联邦调查局特别不坦率，比任何其他执法机构提供信息时都要糟糕得多。
And he says investigations into police shootings just do not have to take this long.
他说，对警察枪击事件的调查不需要花这么长时间。
He knows this because he's been involved with them himself back when he was a district attorney.
他知道这一点，因为当他还是地方检察官时，他自己就参与过这些活动。
I think the longest one we were involved in was maybe two months.
我认为我们参与的最长的一次可能是两个月。
Versus this case.
对比这个案例。
Bill Keating In this instance, there was a crime scene that amounted to a room and just a few individuals, so it's something that should have taken short order.
比尔·基廷（Bill Keating） 在这个例子中，犯罪现场只有一个房间，只有几个人，所以这应该是短期内完成的事情。
And even though there's an extensive report making vetting that goes on, that delay now continues eight or nine months later.
尽管有一份广泛的报告正在进行审查，但这种延迟现在仍在八九个月后继续。
And that is puzzling.
这令人费解。
From the outside, it just makes it look so suspicious.
从外表上看，这只是让它看起来很可疑。
Do you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
Well, that's what happens when, you know, delays occur.
嗯，这就是发生延误时发生的情况。
Today on our program, we dive into this mystery.
今天在我们的节目中，我们将深入探讨这个谜团。
There's a triple murder in Massachusetts linked to the alleged Boston bomber and this other guy in Florida.
马萨诸塞州发生了三起谋杀案，与波士顿爆炸案嫌疑人和佛罗里达州的另一名男子有关。
Both of those men are dead-- the one in Florida in circumstances that are still very unclear.
这两个人都死了——死者死在佛罗里达州，目前情况还很不明朗。
And as you'll hear, the deeper that we dug into these questions, the weirder the story got.
正如您将听到的，我们对这些问题的探究越深入，故事就越奇怪。
The police and FBI were doing all kinds of things that just did not seem to make much sense.
警察和联邦调查局正在做各种似乎没有多大意义的事情。
We're going to bring you the facts that we've been able to find.
我们将为您带来我们已经找到的事实。
We're going to tell you the ones that we could not find, and then at the end of the hour, our best guess as to what we think might have happened.
我们将告诉您我们找不到的那些，然后在一个小时结束时，我们对我们认为可能发生的情况进行最佳猜测。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.
这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Well, Susan Zalkind is a reporter who lives in Boston, and she has spent the last six months looking into all this for Boston magazine and for us, and also for herself.
苏珊·扎尔金德是一位住在波士顿的记者，她在过去的六个月里为《波士顿》杂志、为我们、也为她自己调查了这一切。
She has a personal connection to what happened, this triple murder, the one that the guy in Florida supposedly is connected to.
她与所发生的这起三重谋杀案有个人联系，据说佛罗里达州的那个人也与这起谋杀案有关。
Her connection is that she was friends with one of the victims in that original crime-- one of the three drug dealers who was killed, Eric Weissman.
她的联系是，她是那起最初犯罪事件的受害者之一——被杀的三名毒贩之一埃里克·韦斯曼(Eric Weissman)的朋友。
So here's Susan.
这是苏珊。
I met Eric five years before he was killed.
我在埃里克被杀前五年认识了他。
It was the summer after my freshman year in college.
那是我大学一年级后的夏天。
I was 19 and he was 26, and we hung out a few times that summer, usually driving around aimlessly in his car, listening to music, talking, and smoking pot.
那年我 19 岁，他 26 岁，那年夏天我们出去玩过几次，通常开着他的车漫无目的地闲逛，听音乐、聊天、抽大麻。
He had wire-rimmed nerd glasses and a Jewfro, and honestly, he was just really sweet.
他戴着金属丝书呆子眼镜，戴着犹太眼镜，说实话，他真的很可爱。
He sold high-end weed, flew to Amsterdam regularly for special seeds, and talked about selling pot as if it were a community service.
他出售高端大麻，定期飞往阿姆斯特丹购买特殊种子，并谈论销售大麻，就好像这是一项社区服务一样。
Over time, I stopped smoking weed.
随着时间的推移，我不再吸大麻了。
We grew apart.
我们渐行渐远。
The last time I spoke to him was eight months before he was killed.
我最后一次和他说话是在他被杀前八个月。
My dad's a criminal defense attorney, and Eric wanted his number to hire him.
我父亲是一名刑事辩护律师，埃里克想要他的电话号码来雇用他。
Police had raided his apartment.
警察突击搜查了他的公寓。
A few years earlier, he told me he only sold pot, but police also seized coke and OxyContin.
几年前，他告诉我他只卖大麻，但警方还查获了可乐和奥施康定。
He sounded scared.
他听起来很害怕。
I told him it would be OK.
我告诉他没关系。
Approximately 2:30 PM today, the Waltham police responded to this scene, a-- sorry-- very graphic crime scene.
今天下午 2:30 左右，沃尔瑟姆警方对这一场景做出了回应，抱歉，这是一个非常生动的犯罪现场。
There are three dead bodies in the apartment.
公寓内共有三具尸体。
This is a fluid, ongoing investigation.
这是一项持续不断的调查。
The day Eric's body was discovered, Middlesex County District Attorney Gerry Leone faced a scrum of reporters outside the crime scene in Waltham, a suburb of Boston.
埃里克尸体被发现的那天，米德尔塞克斯县地方检察官格里·利昂在波士顿郊区沃尔瑟姆的犯罪现场外面对着一群记者。
Leone said he couldn't release many details, not before they got in touch with the victims' families.
莱昂内表示，在他们与受害者家属取得联系之前，他无法透露太多细节。
He wouldn't even confirm the victims' genders or their approximate ages.
他甚至不愿确认受害者的性别或大致年龄。
There wasn't a lot of information, except for this, which seemed very specific.
除了这个之外，没有太多信息，看起来很具体。
It does look like the assailants and the decedents did know each other.
看来袭击者和死者确实互相认识。
We have no evidence of a break in the apartment, and we have other indicia that the decedents and the assailants were known to each other.
我们没有证据表明公寓遭到破坏，而且我们还有其他迹象表明死者和袭击者彼此认识。
You're saying assailants, plural.
你说的是袭击者，复数。
You mean you're thinking that more than one person is responsible?
你的意思是你认为不止一个人有责任？
We're not sure at this time.
目前我们还不确定。
We know there were at least two people who are not in that apartment now who were there earlier.
我们知道至少有两个人早些时候在该公寓，但现在不在该公寓里。
It was later revealed that the killers slit their throats.
后来得知凶手割断了他们的喉咙。
The three bodies lay face down, heads turned to the side, each in a neat pool of blood.
三具尸体脸朝下躺着，头转向一边，每具尸体都倒在血泊中。
Two of the bodies had about a pound and a half of marijuana dumped on them.
其中两具尸体上被倾倒了大约一磅半的大麻。
The scene didn't scan like a robbery.
现场看起来并不像抢劫。
There were eight and a half pounds of pot left in bags and glass jars and $5,000 lying next to the bodies.
袋子和玻璃罐里还剩下八磅半的大麻，尸体旁边还放着 5,000 美元。
They were killed sometime after 7:30 on the night of September 11, 2011.
他们于 2011 年 9 月 11 日晚上 7 点 30 分左右被杀害。
Weeks passed, and months.
几周过去了，几个月过去了。
My friends and I would convene nightly meetings huddled in our apartments and run through all the possibilities of who could have killed our friend.
我和我的朋友们每晚都会在我们的公寓里召开会议，讨论谁可能杀死我们的朋友的所有可能性。
But there didn't seem to be any leads, and certainly no arrests.
但似乎没有任何线索，当然也没有逮捕任何人。
I didn't hear much more about the case, really, until a year and a half later, after the Boston Marathon bombings, when news reports said police and FBI were beginning to look into the connection between the alleged bomber, Tamerlan Tsarnaev, and the Waltham murders.
事实上，直到一年半后，波士顿马拉松爆炸案发生后，我才听到更多有关此案的信息，当时新闻报道称，警方和联邦调查局开始调查涉嫌爆炸案的塔梅尔兰·察尔纳耶夫 (Tamerlan Tsarnaev) 与沃尔瑟姆谋杀案之间的联系。
Tamerlan had been close friends with one of the three murder victims, a guy named Brendan Mess.
塔梅尔兰与三名谋杀案受害者之一、名叫布伦丹·梅斯的人是亲密朋友。
But after the murders, Tamerlan had acted suspiciously, Didn't go to Brendan's funeral.
但谋杀案发生后，塔梅尔兰表现可疑，没有参加布兰登的葬礼。
I talked to one guy who said he went up to Tamerlan to offer his condolences about Brendan, and Tamerlan literally laughed it off.
我和一个人聊过，他说他去塔梅尔兰对布伦丹表示哀悼，塔梅尔兰一笑置之。
People actually told investigators to look into Tamerlan Tsarnaev back in 2011, right after the murders, but police never followed up.
事实上，人们早在 2011 年谋杀案发生后就告诉调查人员调查塔梅尔兰·察尔纳耶夫 (Tamerlan Tsarnaev)，但警方从未跟进。
After the marathon bombings, there were rumblings of a scandal about all this.
马拉松爆炸案发生后，有关这一切的丑闻传得沸沸扬扬。
If police had questioned Tamerlan back in 2011, is it possible he'd be in prison instead of placing two homemade bombs at the finish line?
如果警察早在 2011 年就审问塔梅尔兰，他是否有可能会入狱，而不是在终点线放置两枚自制炸弹？
But then pretty quickly came the same news reports you heard at the beginning of the show, that some guy in Florida named Ibragim Todashev supposedly admitted that he'd been involved in the Waltham murders, and that Tamerlan had been with him.
但很快就出现了你在节目开始时听到的同样的新闻报道，佛罗里达州一个名叫易卜拉吉姆·托达舍夫的人据称承认他参与了沃尔瑟姆谋杀案，而塔梅尔兰一直和他在一起。
There was no written confession.
没有书面认罪。
There was no reporting.
没有任何报告。
And then Todashev was shot by an FBI agent.
然后托达舍夫被联邦调查局特工枪杀。
I had no idea what to make of it.
我不知道该怎么办。
A year and a half had gone by with no news at all, and now, suddenly, they had found the killers, and both of them are dead?
一年半过去了，一点消息都没有，现在突然找到了凶手，而且两个人都死了？
Should I really believe that these two guys murdered my friend?
我真的应该相信这两个人谋杀了我的朋友吗？
So I start to look into everything I could learn about the guy in Florida, Ibragim Todashev.
所以我开始调查我能了解到的关于佛罗里达州易卜拉吉姆·托达舍夫（Ibragim Todashev）的一切信息。
I talked to anyone I could reach who knew him-- friends, family, former coworkers-- and asked them all what kind of guy Ibragim Todashev was.
我与所有认识他的人——朋友、家人、前同事——进行了交谈，并询问他们所有人易卜拉吉姆·托达舍夫是一个什么样的人。
But it seemed like he was a hard person to get a read on.
但他似乎是一个很难读懂的人。
Well, OK, the one thing I noticed about him, he never smiled in his pictures or anything like that.
好吧，我注意到他的一件事是，他在照片或类似的东西中从不微笑。
I used to see him at the mosque.
我以前在清真寺见过他。
He was a good guy, nice guy.
他是个好人，好人。
Like, you know, doing his prayers, and all that.
就像，你知道，做他的祈祷，等等。
Ibragim-- I never liked that dude.
易卜拉欣——我从来不喜欢那个家伙。
I'm gonna be honest.
我会说实话。
He was, like, a douchebag.
他就像一个混蛋。
To be honest, this guy seems like he had a temper.
说实话，这家伙看上去脾气还蛮大的。
He was-- I can't speak how he was with somebody else, but with me, he was grateful, thoughtful husband.
他是——我无法形容他对别人的态度如何，但对我来说，他是一个感恩、体贴的丈夫。
He was actually, if you get to know him, he was a pretty good guy.
事实上，如果你了解他的话，他是一个非常好的人。
I learned Ibragim was religious and prayed regularly, but he also went to clubs and hit on women.
我了解到易卜拉欣很虔诚，经常祈祷，但他也去俱乐部勾搭女人。
He liked to hang out with a close-knit group of Chechen friends, and he was a fighter.
他喜欢和一群关系密切的车臣朋友一起出去玩，而且他是一名战士。
He trained seriously in mixed martial arts, a sport where boxing, wrestling, kickboxing and jujitsu are all mixed together.
他认真接受了混合武术训练，这是一项将拳击、摔跤、跆拳道和柔术混合在一起的运动。
He wanted to go pro.
他想成为职业选手。
He'd emigrated from Chechnya to Boston in 2008, lived there for a few years, worked a few odd jobs, got married, got separated, spent some time in Atlanta, and by the end of 2011, a few months after the murders in Waltham, he had moved to Florida.
2008年，他从车臣移民到波士顿，在那里住了几年，打过几份零工，结婚，分居，在亚特兰大待了一段时间，到2011年底，沃尔瑟姆谋杀案发生几个月后，他搬到了佛罗里达州。
But one detail caught my attention.
但有一个细节引起了我的注意。
At the time of his death, Ibragim had been living with a woman named Tatiana Gruzdeva.
在他去世时，易卜拉欣一直与一位名叫塔蒂亚娜·格鲁兹德瓦的女人住在一起。
The Boston Globe wrote that Tatiana had been detained for having an expired visa, and was on her way to being deported to Moscow.
《波士顿环球报》报道称，塔蒂亚娜因签证过期而被拘留，并正在被驱逐到莫斯科的路上。
But later, they reported that Tatiana had been mysteriously released, and was still living in Florida.
但后来，他们报告说塔蒂亚娜已被神秘释放，目前仍住在佛罗里达州。
I found her the way anyone finds anybody, on Facebook.
我像其他人在 Facebook 上找到其他人一样找到了她。
A slight 19-year-old with bleach blond hair and huge green eyes, she posted a lot of selfies.
她是一个 19 岁的小姑娘，有着一头金发和一双绿色的大眼睛，她发布了很多自拍照。
Impulsively, I sent her a friend request.
一时冲动，我给她发了好友请求。
It didn't surprise me that she didn't respond.
她没有回应我并不感到惊讶。
Months went by.
几个月过去了。
Then, one night in September, while I was working on my computer in my living room, a little alert appeared on my screen.
然后，九月的一个晚上，当我在客厅的电脑上工作时，屏幕上出现了一个小警报。
Tatiana accepted my Facebook request.
塔蒂亚娜接受了我的 Facebook 请求。
We started messaging.
我们开始发消息。
Soon we switched to the phone.
很快我们就改用电话了。
The first time I talked to Tatiana, I didn't know it was going to be doing a radio story.
我第一次和塔蒂亚娜交谈时，我不知道会做一个广播故事。
I don't have an audio recording, but I took notes, and I tried to get down as much of her rapid fire, Russian accented voice as possible.
我没有录音，但我做了笔记，并试图尽可能多地记下她急促的、带有俄罗斯口音的声音。
She told me she'd only known Ibragim for six months.
她告诉我她只认识易卜拉欣六个月。
They began as roommates.
他们一开始是室友。
First it was just friends, she told me, and after, "we started having relationship, and we were sleeping together like boyfriend and girlfriend."
她告诉我，一开始只是朋友，然后“我们开始建立关系，我们像男女朋友一样睡在一起。”
Tatiana told me the night Ibragim was shot was not the first time he talked to the FBI.
塔蒂亚娜告诉我，易卜拉欣被枪杀的那天晚上并不是他第一次与联邦调查局交谈。
I think most people had the impression that the FBI showed up, started asking Ibragim about a murder, he freaked out, and they shot him.
我想大多数人的印象是联邦调查局出现了，开始向易卜拉欣询问一桩谋杀案，他吓坏了，然后他们开枪打死了他。
In fact, though, both Tatiana and Ibragim had been cooperating with them for more than a month.
但事实上，塔蒂亚娜和易卜拉欣都已经与他们合作了一个多月了。
The relationship with the FBI had become almost cordial, businesslike.
与联邦调查局的关系变得近乎亲切、务实。
Agents contacted the couple regularly on the phone, visited their home, and called them into the FBI offices for more questioning.
特工定期通过电话联系这对夫妇，拜访他们的家，并将他们叫到联邦调查局办公室进行更多询问。
I wanted to know what they were asking about.
我想知道他们在问什么。
Did it seem like the FBI had connected Ibragim to the Waltham murders?
联邦调查局是否已将易卜拉欣与沃尔瑟姆谋杀案联系起来？
Were they asking about them?
他们有问过他们的事吗？
Tatiana said no. Waltham didn't come up, as far as she knew.
塔蒂亚娜说不。据她所知，沃尔瑟姆没有出现。
She said their questions for Ibragim were mostly about terrorism, the Boston bombing, and his relationship with Tamerlan Tsarnaev.
她说，他们向易卜拉欣提出的问题主要是关于恐怖主义、波士顿爆炸案以及他与塔梅尔兰·察尔纳耶夫的关系。
Ibragim admitted he was friends with Tamerlan back when he lived in Boston.
易卜拉欣承认，当塔梅尔兰住在波士顿时，他就是朋友。
She said the agents asked about a phone call Tamerlan made to Ibragim about a month before the marathon bombing.
她说，特工询问了塔梅尔兰在马拉松爆炸案发生前大约一个月给易卜拉欣打的电话。
Ibragim told them the call was nothing important, that Tamerlan was just checking up on Ibragim after he had surgery on his knee.
易卜拉欣告诉他们，这个电话并不重要，塔梅尔兰只是在易卜拉欣膝盖手术后检查他的情况。
But later, Ibragim deleted the call from his phone history.
但后来，易卜拉欣从他的电话记录中删除了这个电话。
When agents asked him why, Ibragim told them he was scared.
当特工问他为什么时，易卜拉欣告诉他们他很害怕。
Then, three weeks into the interviews, Tatiana was in the lobby of the FBI office, waiting for Ibragim to be done with another round of questioning, and an agent asked her to come with him.
然后，采访进行了三周后，塔蒂亚娜在联邦调查局办公室的大厅里，等待易卜拉欣完成另一轮审问，一名特工要求她和他一起去。
It's fine, she says they told her.
没关系，她说他们告诉她的。
Ibragim knows about it.
易卜拉欣知道这件事。
She went to a room with them.
她和他们一起去了一个房间。
They asked her a bunch of familiar questions about the marathon bombing.
他们问了她一系列有关马拉松爆炸事件的熟悉问题。
And then they brought up something new.
然后他们提出了一些新的东西。
We think he did something else before, in Boston, 2011, with a knife, Tatiana says they told her.
塔蒂亚娜说，他们告诉她，我们认为他之前曾在 2011 年在波士顿用刀做过其他事情。
It was the first time Tatiana had ever heard about the Waltham triple murder.
这是塔蒂亚娜第一次听说沃尔瑟姆三重谋杀案。
She told the agents she didn't believe that Ibragim had anything to do with it.
她告诉特工，她不相信易卜拉欣与这件事有任何关系。
She said the agents then asked her if she'd be willing to let them know if Ibragim started doing anything suspicious, basically to inform on him.
她说，特工们随后问她是否愿意让他们知道易卜拉欣是否开始做任何可疑的事情，主要是为了举报他。
She says she said no, because he wasn't doing anything, and she didn't know anything.
她说她拒绝了，因为他什么也没做，而她什么也不知道。
So the agents called immigration, and they locked her up.
于是特工打电话给移民局，他们把她关了起来。
She was in the States on an expired student visa.
她在美国持过期的学生签证。
Tatiana was held in an immigration detention facility for a week.
塔蒂亚娜被关押在移民拘留所一周。
The day after Ibragim was shot, she was transferred to the Glades County Detention Center and placed in a medical unit.
易卜拉欣被枪杀的第二天，她被转移到格莱兹县拘留中心，并被安置在医疗室。
She asked officers why she was being moved, and they told her they'd tell her in the morning.
她询问警察为什么要转移她，警察告诉她，他们会在早上告诉她。
The next day, she learned the truth.
第二天，她得知了真相。
Her boyfriend was dead.
她的男朋友死了。
She didn't return home for another 11 weeks, to the apartment she'd once shared with Ibragim.
接下来的 11 周里，她没有回到家，回到她曾经与易卜拉欣合住的公寓。
I'm just gonna leave the recorder running.
我会让录音机继续运转。
All right.
好的。
Susan Zalkind Three days after I talked to Tatiana on the phone, I flew down to Orlando to meet with her in person.
苏珊·扎尔金德 (Susan Zalkind) 在我与塔蒂亚娜通电话三天后，我飞往奥兰多亲自与她会面。
And this time, I brought a tape recorder.
这次我还带了录音机。
But sitting in the tiny living room of her apartment, the room where Ibragim had been killed, she was much more reluctant to talk about Ibragim or the FBI or, really, much of anything.
但坐在她公寓的小客厅里，也就是易卜拉吉姆被杀的房间里，她更不愿意谈论易卜拉欣或联邦调查局，或者，实际上，谈论任何事情。
What first made you fall in love with Ibragim?
是什么首先让您爱上易卜拉欣？
One reason Tatiana was scared, why she responded to my Facebook request at all weeks after I sent it, was because earlier that same day, she and her friend had been driving when they got pulled over by six or seven unmarked police cars and her friend was taken away.
塔蒂亚娜感到害怕的原因之一是，她在我发送 Facebook 请求后的几周内都回复了我的请求，因为当天早些时候，她和她的朋友正在开车，突然被六七辆没有标记的警车拦住，她的朋友被带走了。
She didn't know who had taken him or why, but she was afraid she might be next.
她不知道是谁带走了他，也不知道为什么，但她担心自己可能就是下一个。
I know, but I'm really scared, you know, about just--
我知道，但我真的很害怕，你知道，只是——
I understand that you're just scared, like, in general.
我知道你一般来说只是害怕。
Because after this jail, and right after, I'm really scared.
因为自从进了监狱之后，我真的很害怕。
It was also weird being in that apartment with a 19-year-old girl whose bed was covered with stuffed animals.
和一个 19 岁的女孩一起住在那间公寓里也很奇怪，她的床上铺满了毛绒玩具。
She showed me a video she'd taken with her phone of her and Ibragim in a Hallmark type store on Valentine's Day.
她给我看了一段她和易卜拉欣在情人节用手机拍摄的视频。
She's giggling and trying to get him to put on a silly hat.
她咯咯地笑着，试图让他戴上一顶愚蠢的帽子。
She seemed to be like any other teenage girl with a standoffish boyfriend.
她似乎和其他有一个冷漠男友的十几岁女孩一样。
[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Susan Zalkind She knew about my connection to the Waltham murders.
[说外语] 苏珊·扎尔金德 她知道我与沃尔瑟姆谋杀案的关系。
She knew that her boyfriend is thought to be the person who killed my friend.
她知道她的男朋友被认为是杀死我朋友的人。
But she didn't think it was even slightly possible he did it.
但她认为他根本不可能做到这一点。
I tried not to push her on that point, but it was practically all I could think about.
我尽量不去逼迫她，但这几乎是我所能想到的。
Did her dead boyfriend slit my friend's throat?
她死去的男朋友割断了我朋友的喉咙吗？
Instead, I told her I thought it was wrong of the FBI to kill Ibragim, even if he was a murderer.
相反，我告诉她，我认为联邦调查局杀死易卜拉欣是错误的，即使他是杀人犯。
After a few hours of talking, I decided to leave Tatiana alone.
经过几个小时的交谈，我决定让塔蒂亚娜一个人呆着。
Well, keep in touch with me.
嗯，与我保持联系。
If something happens, you know, and you-- keep in touch with me.
如果发生什么事情，你知道的，请与我保持联系。
Let me know what's going on.
让我知道发生了什么事。
All right.
好的。
I hope nothing.
我希望什么都没有。
Susan Zalkind Hopefully nothing, but-- nothing bad's going to ever happen to you, but--
苏珊·扎尔金德 希望没有什么事情发生，但是——你不会发生任何不好的事情，但是——
I hope.
我希望。
I hope not, because it's already a lot.
我希望不会，因为已经很多了。
OK, OK, Tatiana, who-- who-- who is the immigration officer who told you that you're here because of an interview you gave to me?
好吧，好吧，塔蒂亚娜，谁——谁——谁是那位移民官，他告诉你你来这里是因为你接受了我的采访？
[INAUDIBLE].
[听不清]。
Susan Zalkind Give me the--
苏珊·扎尔金德 给我——
A week after I left Orlando, Tatiana called me from an immigration detention facility.
我离开奥兰多一周后，塔蒂亚娜从移民拘留所给我打电话。
She told me because she did that interview with me, and I wrote a story about it for Boston magazine's website, she was now being deported.
她告诉我，因为她接受了我的采访，而且我为《波士顿》杂志的网站写了一篇有关此事的报道，所以她现在被驱逐出境。
I can't believe that that's happened, though.
但我不敢相信这种事竟然发生了。
And if that's the only reason, it's really concerning.
如果这是唯一的原因，那确实令人担忧。
Right?
正确的？
It's stupid, right?
这很愚蠢，对吧？
It's crazy!
太疯狂了！
I can't believe it's true, but-- because of this interview.
我不敢相信这是真的，但是——因为这次采访。
After Tatiana had been released from detention the first time, she was given a special permission to stay in the US-- something called deferred action.
塔蒂亚娜第一次被释放后，她获得了留在美国的特别许可——这就是所谓的“延期行动”。
Now she was telling me that permission had been revoked.
现在她告诉我许可已被撤销。
Because now they're still overstating that.
因为现在他们仍然夸大了这一点。
Have you been speaking to the FBI since you've been detained?
自从你被拘留以来，你有没有和联邦调查局谈过话？
No, no. Oh my god.
不，不。我的天啊。
Thank god, no. I don't want to talk to them.
感谢上帝，没有。我不想和他们说话。
Maybe I will have more problems now.
也许我现在会遇到更多问题。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Tatiana Gruzdeva I wanted to [INAUDIBLE].
Tatiana Gruzdeva 我想要[听不清]。
OK.
好的。
Tatiana Gruzdeva I want to be-- I just want to be deported.
Tatiana Gruzdeva 我想——我只是想被驱逐出境。
I just want to see my mom, my family.
我只想看看我的妈妈，我的家人。
I just want to go to Russia.
我只想去俄罗斯。
But I want to be safe in Russia.
但我想在俄罗斯安全。
I don't want to stay here anymore in the jail.
我不想再待在监狱里了。
I frantically called immigration officers to find out what was going on.
我疯狂地打电话给移民官员，想了解发生了什么事。
They wouldn't tell me anything.
他们什么也不告诉我。
Later, when I asked again, they referred me to the FBI.
后来，当我再次询问时，他们将我转介给FBI。
But the FBI wouldn't talk about it.
但联邦调查局不愿谈论此事。
After spending 10 days in jail, two immigration agents accompanied Tatiana on her flight back to Moscow.
在监狱里呆了 10 天后，两名移民官员陪同塔蒂亚娜登上了返回莫斯科的航班。
Even when she got home to her mom's house in Moldova, she told me she was too scared to do another interview.
即使当她回到摩尔多瓦妈妈家时，她也告诉我她太害怕了，不敢再接受采访。
I called around to a few immigration lawyers, because I wanted to know if it's even legal to deport someone for speaking to the press.
我打电话给几位移民律师，因为我想知道因向媒体发表言论而驱逐某人是否合法。
It turns out, because of Tatiana's status, it was.
事实证明，由于塔蒂亚娜的地位，确实如此。
Under her deferred action, Tatiana was legally allowed to stay in the US for another year.
根据她的延期诉讼，塔蒂亚娜被合法允许在美国再居留一年。
Now that she'd talked to me, her stay was mysteriously cut 10 months short.
既然她跟我谈过，她的逗留时间就神秘地缩短了 10 个月。
But why?
但为什么？
What didn't the FBI want her to say to me?
What didn't the FBI want her to say to me?
Or maybe they were trying to send a message to other people who might talk.
或者也许他们试图向其他可能说话的人发送信息。
I did notice the FBI seemed to be paying a lot of attention to anyone who was close to Ibragim.
我确实注意到联邦调查局似乎非常关注任何与易卜拉欣关系密切的人。
In these recent weeks, how much contact have you had with the FBI?
最近几周，您与 FBI 有多少接触？
Me?
我？
Susan Zalkind This is Ibragim's best friend in Florida, Khusen Taramov.
苏珊·扎尔金德 这是易卜拉欣在佛罗里达州最好的朋友库森·塔拉莫夫。
The morning after Ibragim died, he talked to TV reporters with another friend of Ibragim's who didn't want to be identified.
易卜拉欣去世后的第二天早上，他与易卜拉欣另一位不愿透露姓名的朋友接受了电视台记者的采访。
They've been following us.
They've been following us.
They're watching us.
他们在看着我们。
Every time we go somewhere, there's two, three cops undercover.
每次我们去某个地方，都会有两三个警察卧底。
We see them.
我们看到他们了。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
Like, they still watch us all the time.
就像，他们仍然一直看着我们。
They know everything about us-- where we from, what are we doing.
他们了解我们的一切——我们来自哪里，我们在做什么。
They know everything.
他们什么都知道。
Khusen Taramov Everything.
库森·塔拉莫夫一切。
Everything.
一切。
Everything.
一切。
So--
所以——
Khusen had actually been with Ibragim the night he was killed.
易卜拉欣被杀当晚，库森实际上就在他身边。
He went with Ibragim to the final interview at his apartment, but agents told them to wait outside.
他和易卜拉欣一起去他的公寓进行最后一次面试，但特工告诉他们在外面等候。
They wanted to question Ibragim alone.
他们想单独审问易卜拉欣。
Khusen waited outside for four hours before being told to leave.
库森在外面等了四个小时才被告知离开。
About an hour later, Ibragim was shot.
大约一个小时后，易卜拉欣被枪杀。
I wanted to talk to Khusen about this, but when I reached out to him, I learned something strange.
我想和库森谈谈这件事，但当我联系他时，我了解到一些奇怪的事情。
Khusen had gone to Russia on July 4th to see his family, and when he tried to come back to the US afterwards, authorities wouldn't let Khusen or his two brothers on the plane, with no explanation.
库森于7月4日前往俄罗斯探望家人，随后当他试图返回美国时，当局不让库森或他的两个兄弟登机，而且没有任何解释。
Khusen has a green card.
库森拥有绿卡。
He went to high school in the States.
他在美国上高中。
But for some reason, he's not being let back into the country now.
但出于某种原因，他现在不被允许返回该国。
When I finally did get a hold of Khusen, he said he didn't want to do an interview.
当我最终联系到库森时，他说他不想接受采访。
He just wanted to put everything behind him.
他只想把一切都抛在脑后。
Here's one more thing.
还有一件事。
The FBI stopped the medical examiner from releasing Ibragim's autopsy report.
联邦调查局阻止法医公布易卜拉欣的尸检报告。
The only reason we know how many times he was shot was because pictures were taken of Ibragim's embalmed body.
我们知道他被枪杀了多少次的唯一原因是因为拍摄了易卜拉欣经过防腐处理的尸体的照片。
Khusen is the one who took those pictures.
库森是拍这些照片的人。
So here's what I was working with.
这就是我正在做的事情。
The FBI killed Ibragim.
联邦调查局杀死了易卜拉欣。
They released no official information about exactly what happened and wouldn't say when they would release that information.
他们没有发布有关到底发生了什么的官方信息，也没有透露何时发布该信息。
And then these people close to Ibragim were whisked away.
然后这些与易卜拉欣关系密切的人就被带走了。
His girlfriend, his best friend-- both of them were kept out of the country.
他的女朋友，他最好的朋友——他们都被拒之门外。
I didn't know if it was a cover up, but it just didn't look right.
我不知道这是不是为了掩饰，但看起来不太对劲。
Susan Zalkind.
苏珊·扎尔金德。
Coming up, a third person close to Ibragim is politely ushered out of the country by federal authorities.
随后，与易卜拉欣关系密切的第三位人士被联邦当局礼貌地带出该国。
And at the end of the hour, our theory about the truth behind all this.
到最后，我们关于这一切背后真相的理论。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
All this hour, we're hearing Susan Zalkind's investigation into a few deaths-- a triple murder in Waltham, Massachusetts in 2011, where a friend of hers was one of the victims, and a killing last May where the FBI shot a man, Ibragim Todashev, in his own apartment in Florida seven times while questioning him about the triple murder.
一小时内，我们听到苏珊·扎尔金德(Susan Zalkind)对几起死亡事件的调查——2011年在马萨诸塞州沃尔瑟姆发生的三重谋杀案，她的一位朋友是受害者之一；去年五月，联邦调查局在佛罗里达州一名男子易卜拉吉姆·托达舍夫(Ibragim Todashev)自己的公寓里向他开枪七次，同时询问他有关三重谋杀案的情况。
So far, as you have heard, Susan has found that two of the people closest to Todashev, his girlfriend and his best friend, have both been more or less booted out of the United States.
到目前为止，正如你所听到的，苏珊发现与托达舍夫最亲近的两个人，他的女朋友和他最好的朋友，都或多或少被赶出了美国。
And there's a third person who was close to Ibragim whose story is even stranger, Ashur Miraliev.
还有一个与易卜拉欣关系密切的人阿舒尔·米拉利耶夫（Ashur Miraliev），他的故事更奇怪。
That's where we'll pick up.
That's where we'll pick up.
Here's Susan.
这是苏珊。
It took five months to convince Ashur to talk to me.
我花了五个月的时间才说服阿舒尔跟我说话。
When I first heard about him, he was in a maximum security prison in Florida.
当我第一次听说他时，他正在佛罗里达州一所高度戒备的监狱里。
Nine weeks later, he was deported to Tajikistan.
Nine weeks later, he was deported to Tajikistan.
During all this time, I reached out again and again, and he just kept turning me down.
在这段时间里，我一次又一次地向他伸出援手，他却一次又一次地拒绝我。
His lawyer said he didn't want to talk because he'd been traumatized, having his friend killed by the FBI and then being arrested himself.
他的律师表示，他不想说话，因为他的朋友被联邦调查局杀害，然后他自己也被捕，这让他受到了精神创伤。
But finally, a month ago--
But finally, a month ago--
Are you there?
你在吗？
Ashur Miraliev Can you hear me?
Ashur Miraliev Can you hear me?
Yeah.
是的。
Can you hear me?
你能听到我吗？
Ashur Miraliev Yes.
阿舒尔·米拉利耶夫 是的。
We talked over an internet phone line.
We talked over an internet phone line.
Ashur moved to Florida in 2011 on a student visa.
2011 年，阿舒尔 (Ashur) 持学生签证搬到了佛罗里达州。
He started hanging out with a crew of Russian speakers, and that's how he met Ibragim.
他开始和一群说俄语的人一起出去玩，这就是他认识易卜拉欣的方式。
Ashur is only 20 years old, so he was nearly eight years younger than Ibragim.
阿舒尔只有20岁，比易卜拉欣小了近八岁。
He said they had a good friendship, but because of the age difference, it wasn't super close.
他说他们的友谊很好，但因为年龄的差异，关系并不是很亲密。
Ibragim didn't confide in him.
Ibragim didn't confide in him.
He said Ibragim was more like a brother than a friend.
他说易卜拉欣更像是兄弟而不是朋友。
Ashur was questioned once by the FBI about Ibragim two days before Ibragim died.
在易卜拉吉姆去世前两天，阿舒尔曾接受联邦调查局关于易卜拉吉姆的询问。
But after an FBI agent shot Ibragim during an interview, Ashur and his friends decided they didn't want to sit down for any more interviews themselves.
但在一名联邦调查局特工在接受采访时枪杀了易卜拉欣后，阿舒尔和他的朋友们决定自己不想再坐下来接受任何采访。
They stopped cooperating.
They stopped cooperating.
Four months passed.
四个月过去了。
It seemed like the FBI had moved on, until a Wednesday afternoon in September when Ashur was driving near Universal Studios and an undercover car pulled him over.
联邦调查局似乎已经采取了行动，直到九月的一个星期三下午，阿舒尔在环球影城附近开车时，一辆便衣车把他拦了下来。
And then there was a bunch of cars, like five, six cars were right after them.
然后有一堆汽车，大约有五六辆汽车紧随其后。
Why did they say they were pulling you over?
Why did they say they were pulling you over?
Because my driver's license was expired.
Because my driver's license was expired.
That's the only reason they told you you were being pulled over by seven undercover--
这就是他们告诉你你被七名便衣警察拦下的唯一原因——
Yes.
是的。
Susan Zalkind --cops?
苏珊·扎尔金德——警察？
They said your driver's license was expired?
他们说你的驾照过期了？
Yes.
是的。
Susan Zalkind Ashur says people who identified themselves as FBI agents asked him to come to their office.
苏珊·扎尔金德·阿舒尔说，那些自称是联邦调查局特工的人要求他去他们的办公室。
They told me that, like, let's go to the office, you know, there's air conditioning, blah, blah, blah.
他们告诉我，我们去办公室吧，你知道，那里有空调，等等，等等。
We can chill and talk, you know?
We can chill and talk, you know?
Did they tell you what they wanted to talk about?
他们有告诉你他们想谈论什么吗？
So you have an expired license.
So you have an expired license.
Did they say they wanted to talk about that?
Did they say they wanted to talk about that?
Yeah.
是的。
I told them, what do you want to talk about?
I told them, what do you want to talk about?
Like, what do you want?
比如，你想要什么？
And they just kept saying, let's go to the office, you know?
他们只是一直说，我们去办公室吧，你知道吗？
We're gonna talk over there.
我们要去那里谈谈。
You can stop the conversation anytime you want, you know?
你可以随时停止谈话，知道吗？
You can come back at any time you want, blah, blah, blah, you know?
你可以随时回来，等等，等等，你知道吗？
I was so shocked.
我很震惊。
I was so shocked, and I was so interested.
我很震惊，也很感兴趣。
From one side, I wanted to go with them, because I was so interested.
一方面，我想和他们一起去，因为我很感兴趣。
I wanted to know what they want for me, like, you know?
我想知道他们想要我什么，你知道吗？
So I decided to go with them, because I was so scared.
所以我决定和他们一起去，因为我很害怕。
I was so shocked.
我很震惊。
And it was so interesting, you know?
And it was so interesting, you know?
Ashur was driven to a police station where they entered this in their system as merely a traffic stop, no other information.
阿舒尔被带到警察局，他们在系统中输入的只是一个交通站点，没有其他信息。
But according to documents from the County Sheriff's department, Ashur was soon headed over to the FBI, where he says agents aggressively questioned him about his relationship with Ibragim.
但根据县治安部门的文件，阿舒尔很快就被送往联邦调查局，他说特工们对他与易卜拉欣的关系进行了积极的询问。
They were convinced that he'd been one of Ibragim's closest friends, that he had to know something.
他们确信他是易卜拉欣最亲密的朋友之一，他一定知道一些事情。
What kind of information about Ibragim were they interested in?
他们对易卜拉欣的哪些信息感兴趣？
Like, what kind of relationship he had with Tsarnaevs, when he was in the Boston.
比如，当他在波士顿时，他与察尔纳耶夫斯有什么样的关系。
Do you know his Boston friends?
你认识他的波士顿朋友吗？
Do you know who was with him at the time of triple murder, you know?
你知道三重谋杀案发生时谁和他在一起吗？
What do I know about triple murder?
我对三重谋杀案了解多少？
What did Ibragim told me about triple murder, you know?
关于三重谋杀案，易卜拉欣告诉了我什么，你知道吗？
Like, these kids of questions.
就像，这些问题的孩子。
It surprised me that they were asking Ashur about the Waltham murders four months after Ibragim had been killed, four months after Ibragim had supposedly confessed.
令我惊讶的是，他们在易卜拉吉姆被杀四个月后，也就是易卜拉欣据称认罪的四个月后，向阿舒尔询问沃尔瑟姆谋杀案。
Ashur told me he knew nothing about the triple murder.
阿舒尔告诉我他对三重谋杀案一无所知。
He'd never met the Tsarnaevs.
他从未见过察纳耶夫一家。
He's never even been to Boston.
他甚至从未去过波士顿。
Did they imply that you had anything to do with this triple murder in Waltham?
他们是否暗示你与沃尔瑟姆的这起三重谋杀案有关？
Me?
我？
Susan Zalkind Yeah.
苏珊·扎尔金德 是的。
Was that what the--
那是不是——
No, no. Susan Zalkind Was the FBI asking you about that?
不，不。苏珊·扎尔金德（Susan Zalkind）联邦调查局（FBI）问过你这件事吗？
No. But they were pointing at Ibragim, like, for sure, you know?
不。但他们指的是易卜拉欣，就像，当然，你知道吗？
Like for sure he did it?
好像肯定是他干的？
Ashur Miraliev Yeah, exactly.
阿舒尔·米拉利耶夫 是的，没错。
They wasn't interested about me.
他们对我不感兴趣。
They-- can you hear me?
他们——你能听到我说话吗？
Yeah, I hear you.
是的，我听到了。
Ashur Miraliev They knew that I didn't do nothing.
Ashur Miraliev 他们知道我什么也没做。
They wasn't interested about me.
他们对我不感兴趣。
They just wanted to get some information from me, you know?
他们只是想从我这里得到一些信息，你知道吗？
I couldn't figure out if the FBI thought Ashur actually knew something or if they were just fishing.
我不知道联邦调查局是否认为阿舒尔真的知道一些事情，或者他们只是在钓鱼。
It made me think that even if Ibragim confessed, they didn't have much evidence besides it.
这让我觉得即使易卜拉欣认罪了，他们也没有太多证据。
They needed anything they could find to close the case.
他们需要任何能找到的东西来结案。
How long did this interview go for, this first interview?
这次采访持续了多长时间，第一次采访？
Um, it was like a few hours.
嗯，就像几个小时一样。
A few hours, yeah.
几个小时，是的。
And when I told them I wanted to stop the conversation, they told me you're gonna go to the jail, you know?
当我告诉他们我想停止谈话时，他们告诉我你会进监狱，你知道吗？
That's the first time they told me about the jail.
这是他们第一次告诉我有关监狱的事情。
I really thought they were kidding, you know?
我真的以为他们在开玩笑，你知道吗？
Because I knew that I wouldn't go to the jail for my driver's license, because it was only nine days expired.
因为我知道我不会去监狱拿驾照，因为驾照只剩九天了。
I could get only a ticket, you know?
我只能拿到一张票，你知道吗？
I thought they were kidding, but they weren't.
我以为他们在开玩笑，但事实并非如此。
They just put handcuffs on me.
他们只是给我戴上手铐。
They took me to the jail.
他们把我带到了监狱。
I went to the jail, you know?
我进了监狱，你知道吗？
Ashur had no idea what he was being arrested for, and when they told him, he couldn't believe it.
阿舒尔不知道自己因什么而被捕，当他们告诉他时，他简直不敢相信。
He thought there was some mistake.
他认为有什么错误。
I just want to stop here to take a detour in Ashur's story in order to explain his arrest charge.
我只是想在这里停下来绕一下阿舒尔的故事，以解释他的逮捕指控。
It sheds light on how the FBI was operating down in Florida in this case, and the lengths they were willing to go to get to Ashur.
它揭示了联邦调查局在佛罗里达州在此案中的运作方式，以及他们愿意付出多大的努力来找到阿舒尔。
Ashur was arrested for threatening the victim of a crime.
阿舒尔因威胁犯罪受害者而被捕。
The formal charge was tampering with a victim by threat, and the story behind it starts here, at the Ali Baba Hookah Lounge just outside Orlando.
正式指控是通过威胁对受害者进行干预，其背后的故事始于奥兰多郊外的阿里巴巴水烟酒廊。
Ali Baba sits in the front of a small shopping plaza on Polynesian Isle Boulevard.
阿里巴巴坐落在波利尼西亚岛大道上一个小购物广场的前面。
Disney World is down the road, but the plaza is like this international oasis in the middle of American tourist country.
迪士尼世界就在路的尽头，但广场就像美国旅游胜地中部的国际绿洲。
There's a small grocery store owned by Egyptians, a hair salon owned by an Iraqi Turkish guy, and the hookah bar, which is owned by a Moroccan.
这里有一家埃及人开的小杂货店，一个伊拉克土耳其人开的发廊，还有一个摩洛哥人开的水烟吧。
The incident that put Ashur in jail happened here, and the person who pressed charges against Ashur was the manager of the hookah bar, this guy.
让阿舒尔入狱的事件就发生在这里，而对阿舒尔提出指控的人就是水烟吧的经理，这个家伙。
My name is Youness eit Dammou.
我的名字是 Youness eit Dammou。
I used to work at the Ali Baba Hookah Bar.
我曾经在阿里巴巴水烟吧工作。
Youness actually works at a different hookah bar now, across the street.
事实上，尤尼斯现在在街对面的另一家水烟吧工作。
When my producer, Brian Reed, and I found Youness, it was midnight.
当我的制作人布莱恩·里德和我找到 Youness 时，已经是午夜了。
He graciously sat down and told us the story of how he came to press charges against Ashur.
他慷慨地坐下来，向我们讲述了他如何对阿舒尔提出指控的故事。
It actually begins with Ibragim.
它实际上是从易卜拉欣开始的。
One day, Youness says, Ibragim was at the hookah bar, and he was hitting on a woman who worked there, making her feel uncomfortable, so Youness went over to intervene.
尤尼斯说，有一天，易卜拉欣在水烟吧，他和一名在那里工作的女士调情，让她感到不舒服，所以尤尼斯走过去干预。
Ibragim, he got a little bit frustrated and, you know, he thinks he can manage the place.
易卜拉欣，他有点沮丧，你知道，他认为他可以管理这个地方。
I told him, honestly, I'm the manager over here.
我告诉他，老实说，我是这里的经理。
You're welcome.
不客气。
You can have a good time, you know, enjoy yourself.
你可以玩得很开心，你知道，享受你自己。
But if you want to rule this place as you want, you're welcome to leave.
但如果你想随心所欲地统治这个地方，欢迎你离开。
So obviously he didn't like what I said.
很明显他不喜欢我说的话。
After this, Youness says he walked over to the grocery store in the plaza.
尤尼斯说，此后他走到了广场上的杂货店。
Ibragim followed him, telling Youness he wanted to go out back with him behind the plaza.
易卜拉欣跟着他，告诉尤尼斯他想和他一起回到广场后面。
Youness turned away, and then, all of a sudden--
尤尼斯转过头去，然后，突然——
Boom!
繁荣！
I lost consciousness.
我失去了知觉。
Susan Zalkind Ibragim knocked Youness on the side of the head with his fist.
苏珊·扎尔金德·易卜拉欣用拳头敲击了尤尼斯的头部一侧。
A few seconds later, when Youness came to--
几秒钟后，当尤尼斯醒悟过来时——
Youness says Ibragim lifted him high off the ground until Youness's knees were level with Ibragim's chest.
尤尼斯说，易卜拉欣将他高高地举离地面，直到尤尼斯的膝盖与易卜拉欣的胸部齐平。
Then Ibragim slammed him onto the sidewalk, like in a wrestling move.
然后易卜拉欣把他摔到人行道上，就像摔跤一样。
Remember, he was training to be a professional fighter.
请记住，他正在接受训练，成为一名职业拳击手。
Ibragim climbed on top of him.
易卜拉欣爬到他身上。
At this point, a crowd had gathered, and Youness yelled for someone to call 911.
这时，一群人聚集在一起，尤尼斯大声叫人拨打 911。
He heard me say, call 911.
他听到我说，拨打 911。
He ran to his car and ran.
他跑向他的车并跑了。
When police came, Youness told him everything he knew about Ibragim, which wasn't much.
当警察到来时，尤尼斯告诉了他他所知道的关于易卜拉欣的一切，但内容并不多。
He didn't even remember his last name.
他甚至不记得自己的姓氏。
After police left, Youness was trying to get more information about the guy who beat him up, so he went to a pizza shop next door where he'd seen Ibragim hanging out a lot.
警察离开后，尤尼斯试图获得有关殴打他的人的更多信息，因此他去了隔壁的一家披萨店，在那里他经常看到易卜拉欣闲逛。
That's when he ran into Ashur.
就在那时，他遇到了阿舒尔。
Ashur was a delivery guy there, and Youness says Ashur didn't like the fact that he was asking about Ibragim.
阿舒尔是那里的一名送货员，尤尼斯说阿舒尔不喜欢他询问易卜拉欣的情况。
When I asked, Ashur got pissed, and he told me, you're not a man.
当我问起时，阿舒尔很生气，他告诉我，你不是男人。
Why you call the cops?
你为什么要报警？
Why you didn't fight him like a man?
你为什么不像个男人一样跟他战斗？
He starts cursing, and he was coming toward me.
他开始咒骂，并向我走过来。
Did he threaten you?
他威胁你了吗？
Youness Eit Dammou Yeah.
Youness Eit Dammou 是的。
What did he say?
他说什么？
Youness Eit Dammou I don't remember exactly, but it's like he wanted to provoke me to get into a fight.
Youness Eit Dammou 我记不太清了，但他好像想挑衅我打架。
And did you consider calling the police?
你考虑过报警吗？
No, I didn't, because I'd just called him like an hour and a half ago, something like that.
不，我没有，因为我一个半小时前才给他打过电话，类似这样的事情。
There is better things for the police to do than a fight between me and someone, you know what I mean?
警察有比我和某人打架更好的事情要做，你知道我的意思吗？
This incident, this little shouting match, this is what Ashur ended up being arrested for.
这件事，这场小小的争吵，就是阿舒尔最终被捕的原因。
Because Ashur yelled at Youness for calling the police on Ibragim.
因为阿舒尔对尤尼斯大喊大叫，因为他为易卜拉欣报警。
This is the tampering with a victim charge.
这是篡改受害人罪名。
What makes this especially strange is that Ashur wasn't arrested until more than a year later, even though he worked right next door to Youness.
尤其奇怪的是，阿舒尔直到一年多后才被捕，尽管他就在尤尼斯隔壁工作。
That's because in all that time, Youness never thought this was a big enough deal to even call the police about.
那是因为在那段时间里，尤尼斯从未认为这是一件大到足以报警的事情。
Youness's only beef was with Ibragim for beating him up.
尤尼斯唯一的不满是因为易卜拉欣殴打了他。
He did want to press charges against him, but 10 months went by, and there was never an arrest.
他确实想对他提出指控，但10个月过去了，却始终没有逮捕他。
Then the Boston Marathon is bombed, and Youness says one day, out of the blue, an FBI agent met with him, along with a detective from Osceola County, who asked if he still wanted to press charges against Ibragim.
然后波士顿马拉松比赛遭到轰炸，尤尼斯说有一天，一名联邦调查局特工突然与他会面，还有一名来自奥西奥拉县的侦探，询问他是否仍想对易卜拉欣提出指控。
Did they mention the Boston Marathon bombing?
他们提到波士顿马拉松爆炸案了吗？
No. No. We didn't discuss that.
不，不，我们没有讨论这个。
The things that we discussed is the fights, and they want me to press charges.
我们讨论的事情是打架，他们希望我提出指控。
And I press charges.
我提出指控。
Now, if this were a normal case, police would take those charges and go arrest Ibragim.
现在，如果这是正常案件，警察会接受这些指控并逮捕易卜拉欣。
But for some reason, he wasn't arrested.
但由于某种原因，他没有被捕。
Just four days later, Ibragim was dead.
仅仅四天后，易卜拉欣就去世了。
Three months went by, and Youness got another visit, again from the Osceola County detective.
三个月过去了，尤尼斯再次受到奥西奥拉县侦探的拜访。
This time, he asked if Youness wanted to press charges against Ashur.
这次，他询问尤尼斯是否想对阿舒尔提出指控。
And Youness said OK.
尤尼斯说好的。
About three weeks later, Ashur was pulled over by the undercover cars and taken for the FBI interview.
大约三周后，阿舒尔被便衣车拦下并接受联邦调查局的采访。
Which brings us back to the moment FBI agents told him he was under arrest.
这让我们回到联邦调查局特工告诉他他被捕的那一刻。
I asked them, why am I here?
我问他们，我为什么在这里？
Why am I in a jail?
为什么我会在监狱里？
What are the charges, you know?
收费是多少你知道吗？
Again, Ashur Miraliev.
又是阿舒尔·米拉利耶夫。
Ashur Miraliev And they said, do you remember the incident with Youness over there in a hookah bar?
Ashur Miraliev 他们说，你还记得在水烟吧里发生的事吗？
I said, yes, so what?
我说是啊，那又怎样？
They said, that's why you're here.
他们说，这就是你来这里的原因。
Ashur thought there must be some mistake, so much so that as soon as he got booked into jail, he said he wanted to talk to the FBI again.
阿舒尔认为一定是出了什么差错，以至于他一入狱，就说他想再次与联邦调查局交谈。
He drove me back to the agents.
他开车送我回特工那里。
I told them, hey, guys, it's impossible, you know?
我告诉他们，嘿，伙计们，这是不可能的，你知道吗？
Are you guys kidding or something?
你们是在开玩笑还是什么？
I just couldn't believe.
我简直不敢相信。
They told me that they have nothing to do with that.
他们告诉我他们与此无关。
It's the state.
这是国家。
State has some charges on me, you know?
国家对我提出了一些指控，你知道吗？
That's all what they told me, that they don't know nothing about my charges.
他们只告诉我这些，他们对我的指控一无所知。
They don't know nothing.
他们什么都不知道。
It's not true that the FBI knew nothing about this charge.
联邦调查局对这项指控并非一无所知。
A spokeswoman from the Osceola County Sheriff's Office confirmed that an FBI agent named Sykes was there for some of Youness's questioning.
奥西奥拉县治安官办公室的一位女发言人证实，一名名叫赛克斯的联邦调查局特工在现场接受了尤尼斯的部分询问。
And Ashur's arrest affidavit said Agent Sykes is the one who gave them Ashur's name.
阿舒尔的逮捕证词称，赛克斯探员是告诉他们阿舒尔名字的人。
That wasn't all, though.
但这还不是全部。
On his booking papers, along with the tampering with a victim charge, Ashur was given this designation with no explanation-- "on terrorist watch list," "police protective custody," and "high risk, house alone."
在他的预订文件上，连同篡改受害者指控，阿舒尔被赋予了这样的称号，但没有任何解释——“在恐怖分子观察名单上”、“警察保护性拘留”和“高风险，单独居住”。
I should maybe be explicit here.
我也许应该在这里明确指出。
Never once was it alleged, either in a formal charge or even in informal leaks, that Ashur had anything to do with the Boston bombings.
无论是在正式指控中，还是在非正式泄密中，从未有人声称阿舒尔与波士顿爆炸案有任何关系。
The most you can say is how Ashur himself puts it.
你最多能说的是阿舒尔本人的说法。
He knew a guy who knew a guy who supposedly committed the marathon bombings.
他认识一个人，而这个人又认识一个据称制造了马拉松爆炸案的人。
For the crime of yelling at Youness, Ashur spent 33 days in a maximum security cell-- an 8' by 10' room where he spent all day alone.
由于对尤尼斯大喊大叫的罪名，阿舒尔在高度戒备的牢房里度过了 33 天——一个 8 英尺乘 10 英尺的房间，他整天独自度过。
There were no windows.
没有窗户。
Just a slit in the door looking out to the lobby.
门上只有一条缝，可以看到大厅。
The lights were always on, and he was always cold.
灯一直亮着，他总是很冷。
I talked to his attorney, a woman named Thania Diaz Clevenger, who, after trying for several days, and experiencing what she said was the most trouble she's ever had trying to locate a client, was finally able to meet with Ashur.
我和他的律师塔尼亚·迪亚兹·克莱文格 (Thania Diaz Clevenger) 进行了交谈，她经过几天的努力，并经历了她所说的她在寻找客户时遇到的最大麻烦，终于能够与阿舒尔会面。
This is how she described him in jail.
这是她在监狱里对他的描述。
He was broken.
他心碎了。
He was petrified and broken and crying.
他惊呆了，心碎了，哭了。
And they chained him, arms, legs.
他们用铁链锁住他的胳膊、腿。
He had the belly chain.
他有腹链。
Two guards walked with us down the hall to another room where they chained him to the ground, and he begged me not to go.
两名警卫和我们一起沿着大厅走到另一个房间，他们把他锁在地上，他求我不要走。
The charge that got Ashur thrown in prison, tampering with the victim of a crime, was dropped after a month.
阿舒尔因篡改犯罪受害者而被投入监狱，但一个月后被撤销。
The state attorney's office wrote, quote, "This case is not suitable for prosecution." But for Ashur, it was too late.
州检察官办公室写道，“此案不适合起诉。”但对于阿舒尔来说，为时已晚。
When he was arrested, his visa had already expired.
当他被捕时，他的签证已经过期。
He was in the process of applying for asylum, but he missed a court date while he was in jail.
他正在申请庇护，但在监狱期间错过了出庭日期。
So when he was moved out of maximum security, they transferred him to an immigration jail.
因此，当他被移出最高安全级别时，他们将他转移到移民监狱。
Nine weeks after the Orlando PD pulled him over for the traffic stop, he was deported back to Tajikistan, leaving behind his apartment, all of his belongings, his clothes, his money, and his car.
奥兰多警察局将他拦下并进行交通检查九周后，他被驱逐回塔吉克斯坦，留下了他的公寓、所有物品、衣服、钱和汽车。
Ashur's story seems so extreme.
阿舒尔的故事看起来很极端。
For a guy who just knew a guy who knew a guy, the government took pretty drastic measures against him.
对于一个只认识一个认识另一个人的人来说，政府对他采取了相当严厉的措施。
And when you add what they did to Ashur to the fact that Tatiana and Khusen are also being kept out of the country, it's hard not to ask, why is the FBI doing this?
当你将他们对阿舒尔所做的事情加上塔蒂亚娜和库森也被拒出国这一事实时，很难不问，为什么联邦调查局要这样做？
Are they cleaning up their mess?
他们正在收拾烂摊子吗？
Trying to hide something?
试图隐瞒什么？
I asked a former FBI agent named Don Borelli what he thought.
我询问了一位名叫唐·博雷利 (Don Borelli) 的前联邦调查局探员的想法。
If you think that this is some conspiracy to get these people out of the limelight where you're basically trying to suppress a story or a cover up or anything, I don't believe that that's the case at all.
如果你认为这是某种阴谋，目的是让这些人远离聚光灯，而你基本上是在试图压制一个故事或掩盖事实或其他什么，我不认为情况是这样。
What happened to Ashur, Tatiana, and Khusen doesn't make a lot of sense for a murder case, but it does for a terrorism case, which, of course, this was.
阿舒尔、塔蒂亚娜和库森身上发生的事情对于谋杀案来说没有多大意义，但对于恐怖主义案件来说却很有意义，当然，这就是恐怖主义案件。
Don worked at the FBI for 25 years and did a lot of terrorism cases.
唐在联邦调查局工作了25年，侦办了大量恐怖主义案件。
He doesn't have inside knowledge of the investigation into Ibragim, but I told him about the tactics used against Ibragim's friends-- deportations, no fly lists, arresting someone on local charges.
他并不了解易卜拉欣调查的内部情况，但我告诉了他针对易卜拉欣朋友的策略——驱逐出境、禁止飞行名单、以当地罪名逮捕某人。
He says these are all standard in a terrorism investigation for anyone who has any connections to the case.
他说，对于任何与此案有联系的人来说，这些都是恐怖主义调查的标准。
It may be third or four persons removed, but that's the nature of a terrorism investigation.
可能有三四个人被带走，但这就是恐怖主义调查的本质。
You cast a very wide net.
你撒了一张非常广泛的网。
So yeah, if you can keep people out of the country that you think could potentially do harm or aid others in doing harm or whatever, you know, even provide financing, for example, then you are obligated to do that.
所以，是的，如果你可以让人们远离你认为可能造成伤害的国家或帮助他人造成伤害或其他什么，你知道，甚至提供融资，那么你就有义务这样做。
That's your job to do that.
这就是你的工作。
Don says that even if it doesn't seem like you're going to do any harm, if you can be deported, standard procedure in terrorism cases is to deport you unless you can offer something to federal agents that makes it worth it to keep you around.
唐说，即使你看起来不会造成任何伤害，如果你可以被驱逐出境，恐怖主义案件的标准程序就是驱逐你，除非你可以向联邦特工提供一些东西，让你值得留下来。
In other words, there could be a logical explanation for keeping Ashur, Tatiana, and Khusen out of the country that doesn't involve a cover up.
换句话说，将阿舒尔、塔蒂亚娜和库森拒之门外可能有一个不涉及掩盖的合乎逻辑的解释。
But that still doesn't explain the many weird things going on in this case.
但这仍然无法解释本案中发生的许多奇怪的事情。
It doesn't explain why the FBI has taken so long-- nearly 10 months-- to release the report on Ibragim's shooting.
它并没有解释为什么联邦调查局花了这么长时间——近10个月——才发布关于易卜拉欣枪击事件的报告。
It doesn't tell us what to make of Ibragim's supposed confession or what brought agents to his living room in the first place, whether they have any solid proof at all linking Ibragim or Tamerlan Tsarnaev to the murders.
它没有告诉我们如何理解易卜拉吉姆的所谓供词，也没有告诉我们特工们最初来到他的客厅的原因，也没有告诉我们他们是否有任何确凿的证据将易卜拉欣或塔梅尔兰·察尔纳耶夫与谋杀案联系起来。
In the course of reporting this story, I've reached out to the Waltham Police Department, the Middlesex District Attorney's Office, the Massachusetts State Police, the Massachusetts Attorney General, the State Attorney for Osceola and Orange Counties, the Orlando Police Department, the Department of Justice, and of course, the FBI, and none of them will comment.
在报道这个故事的过程中，我联系了沃尔瑟姆警察局、米德尔塞克斯地区检察官办公室、马萨诸塞州警察局、马萨诸塞州总检察长、奥西奥拉县和奥兰治县州检察官、奥兰多警察局、司法部，当然还有联邦调查局，但他们都不会发表评论。
But I've also talked to dozens of people connected to the murders and connected to Ibragim and the Tsarnaevs, as well as to attorneys in law enforcement.
但我也与数十名与谋杀案有关、与易卜拉欣和察纳耶夫家族有关的人以及执法部门的律师进行了交谈。
And I do have a theory about what happened in Ibragim's apartment and in the months before and after.
对于易卜拉欣公寓以及前后几个月发生的事情，我确实有一个推测。
It's just a theory, but here goes.
这只是一个理论，但事实就是如此。
As best as I can tell, the FBI showed up at Ibragim's door looking for a terrorist.
据我所知，联邦调查局出现在易卜拉欣家门口寻找恐怖分子。
He'd spoken on the phone with Tamerlan Tsarnaev in the month before the bombing, and I know a guy named John Allan who tipped off investigators.
爆炸发生前一个月，他曾与塔梅尔兰·察尔纳耶夫 (Tamerlan Tsarnaev) 通电话，我认识一个名叫约翰·艾伦 (John Allan) 的人，他向调查人员通风报信。
John's the owner of a mixed martial arts gym in Boston where both Tamerlan Tsarnaev and Ibragim trained.
约翰是波士顿一家综合武术馆的老板，塔梅尔兰·萨纳耶夫和易卜拉欣都曾在那里训练。
He says he was on a trip in Thailand when the bombings happened.
他说，爆炸发生时他正在泰国旅行。
Before I even got back, you know, I had a Facebook message.
在我回来之前，你知道，我在 Facebook 上收到了一条消息。
One of my cop students-- one of my students that's a policeman-- that has Ibragim's information.
我的一名警察学生——我的一名警察学生——掌握了易卜拉欣的信息。
Give it to him.
把它给他。
You should probably check this guy out.
你也许应该检查一下这个人。
John says that several times, he saw Tamerlan and Ibragim praying at the gym, which he thought was odd.
约翰说，有好几次，他看到塔梅尔兰和易卜拉欣在健身房祈祷，他认为这很奇怪。
Plus, he says, Ibragim just seemed kind of crazy.
另外，他说，易卜拉欣看起来有点疯狂。
I mean, he was definitely out there.
我的意思是，他肯定就在那里。
He was definitely very Muslim.
他绝对是一个非常穆斯林的人。
And if you were to ask me at the time if someone was capable of doing that, I would have said Ibragim not Tamerlan, you know?
如果你当时问我是否有人有能力做到这一点，我会说易卜拉欣而不是塔梅尔兰，你知道吗？
And I'm talking about the bombing.
我正在谈论爆炸事件。
Within a few days of this tip, FBI agents were at Ibragim's apartment.
收到举报后的几天内，联邦调查局探员就来到了易卜拉欣的公寓。
John says it never occurred to him that Ibragim could have been involved in the Waltham triple murders.
约翰说，他从来没有想到易卜拉欣可能参与了沃尔瑟姆三重谋杀案。
He didn't mention anything like that to the police or FBI.
他没有向警方或联邦调查局提及类似的事情。
But by the time they locked up Tatiana, about two and a half weeks later, they'd made the connection.
但大约两周半后，当他们关押塔蒂亚娜时，他们已经建立了联系。
Where that suspicion came from exactly, that Ibragim was involved in the Waltham murders, I just don't know.
我不知道这种怀疑到底从何而来，即易卜拉欣参与了沃尔瑟姆谋杀案。
I ran down every path I could think of to try to find something linking Ibragim to the killings.
我走遍了所有我能想到的途径，试图找到易卜拉欣与这起杀戮事件之间的联系。
I looked into some established crime rings in Waltham, but couldn't connect them to Ibragim.
我调查了沃尔瑟姆的一些已建立的犯罪团伙，但无法将它们与易卜拉欣联系起来。
I tried finding evidence that he was even in the Boston area in September of 2011 when the murders happened.
我试图寻找证据，证明 2011 年 9 月谋杀案发生时他就在波士顿地区。
I pulled his driving records, talked to landlords, employers, roommates.
我调出了他的驾驶记录，与房东、雇主、室友交谈。
I can place him in Boston a month before the murders and a few months after, but not in September.
我可以把他安置在谋杀案发生前一个月和发生后几个月，但不能在九月。
His wife claims he was in Atlanta with her at the time, but she has no proof.
他的妻子声称他当时和她一起在亚特兰大，但她没有证据。
Not long after Ibragim was killed, law enforcement sources told The New York Times that they put together, quote, "a lot of circumstantial pieces" that they then used to pressure Ibragim into implicating himself and Tamerlan in the Waltham murders.
易卜拉吉姆被杀后不久，执法部门消息人士告诉《纽约时报》，他们整理了“大量间接证据”，然后用这些证据向易卜拉欣施压，要求他将自己和塔梅尔兰卷入沃尔瑟姆谋杀案。
It's possible that that's all they had, circumstantial pieces, which wouldn't go very far at trial.
很可能这就是他们所拥有的一切，一些间接证据，在审判中不会走得太远。
So again, this is my theory.
再说一遍，这是我的理论。
But because their evidence was thin, I think law enforcement and prosecutors needed a confession.
但由于他们的证据薄弱，我认为执法部门和检察官需要认罪。
They needed to put pressure on Ibragim to get him to crack.
他们需要向易卜拉欣施加压力，让他崩溃。
And in fact, a law enforcement official told The New York Times that to get Ibragim to talk about the triple murders, investigators, quote, "made him believe he's done, and the only way he could help himself is confess and lay out the details of what had happened."
事实上，一名执法官员告诉《纽约时报》，调查人员援引调查人员的话称，为了让易卜拉欣谈论三起谋杀案，“让他相信自己已经完成了，而他能帮助自己的唯一方法就是坦白并列出所发生事件的细节。”
But then the officials said that Ibragim flipped out.
但随后官员们表示易卜拉欣发怒了。
Which brings up the question, was the FBI shooting of Ibragim justified?
这就提出了一个问题，联邦调查局枪杀易卜拉欣是否合理？
If Ibragim became irate and aggressive and attacked the guy, I can understand why he unloaded his weapon.
如果易卜拉欣变得愤怒、咄咄逼人并攻击了那个人，我就能理解他为什么卸下武器。
Ibragim wasn't going to stop.
易卜拉欣不会停下来。
This is John Allan again, the owner of the MMA gym Ibragim and Tamerlan went to.
这又是约翰·艾伦，易卜拉欣和塔梅尔兰去过的MMA健身房的老板。
John trained Ibragim for his professional fights.
约翰训练易卜拉欣进行职业拳击比赛。
I mean, unless there was a mortal wound that ended his life right there, trust me, I mean, he would break every bone in his body to headbutt somebody.
我的意思是，除非有致命伤就在那里结束了他的生命，相信我，我的意思是，他会用头撞别人，打断身上的每一根骨头。
John Allan, of course, wasn't in the room when Ibragim was shot.
当然，易卜拉欣被枪杀时约翰·艾伦不在房间里。
But he says Ibragim was a very good fighter and had a short fuse, and there were other times Ibragim snapped and got violent.
但他说易卜拉吉姆是一名非常优秀的战士，但脾气暴躁，有时易卜拉吉姆会发脾气并变得暴力。
There was the incident at the hookah bar where he beat up Youness, of course.
当然，在水烟酒吧发生了他殴打尤尼斯的事件。
But Ibragim also got arrested for beating a guy unconscious over a parking space at a mall in Florida, and for a road rage incident in Boston.
但易卜拉欣还因在佛罗里达州一家购物中心的停车位上殴打一名不省人事的男子以及波士顿的路怒事件而被捕。
Certain stuff just set him off.
某些事情让他很恼火。
John Allan remembers he had a weird thing about one particular swear word.
约翰·艾伦记得他对某个特定的脏话有一种奇怪的感觉。
You know, if somebody were to say mother expletive to him, he would lose it.
你知道，如果有人对他说妈妈的脏话，他就会失去理智。
I mean, he would lose it.
我的意思是，他会失去它。
He'd be ready to fight 17 people and not care if he would win or lose, or he would just lose it.
他已经准备好与17个人战斗，并且不在乎他是赢还是输，或者他就输了。
Sometimes it wouldn't even be directed at him.
有时甚至不会针对他。
I tried to explain to him, like, listen, it's not a literal term in America.
我试图向他解释，听着，这在美国不是一个字面术语。
It's just a slang saying.
这只是一句俚语。
It doesn't mean literally, you know?
这不是字面意思，你知道吗？
But there was definitely something going on with him and anger issues.
但他肯定有什么问题和愤怒的问题。
According to the police report for Ibragim's road rage arrest, Ibragim was heard yelling at another driver, quote, "you say something about my mother, I will kill you."
根据警方关于易卜拉吉姆因路怒被捕的报告，有人听到易卜拉吉姆对另一名司机大喊大叫，“你说我母亲的坏话，我会杀了你。”
Since the FBI report hasn't come out explaining what happened that night in Ibragim's apartment, I turn to David Boeri.
由于联邦调查局的报告尚未出来解释当晚易卜拉欣公寓发生的事情，我向大卫·博埃里求助。
He's a crime and courts reporter for Boston Public Radio Station WBUR.
他是波士顿公共广播电台 WBUR 的犯罪和法庭记者。
He's covered the FBI for 30 years and has reported on the night Ibragim Todashev was shot.
他报道联邦调查局 30 年，并报道了易卜拉吉姆·托达舍夫被枪杀当晚的情况。
I wanted to know what his law enforcement sources told him about that night.
我想知道那天晚上他的执法消息来源告诉了他什么。
David says he talked to several law enforcement sources who heard or read accounts from the people in the room.
大卫说，他与几位执法人员进行了交谈，他们听到或读到了房间里的人的叙述。
Inside his apartment-- it's a very small apartment.
在他的公寓里——这是一个非常小的公寓。
You've been there.
你去过那里。
You saw how small it was.
你看到它有多小了。
There are three people from Boston.
有三个来自波士顿的人。
The three people were an FBI agent who'd come down from Boston and two Massachusetts state troopers.
这三人是一名从波士顿赶来的联邦调查局特工和两名马萨诸塞州警察。
I have been in that apartment when I visited Tatiana.
当我拜访塔蒂亚娜时，我就在那个公寓里。
It's one square room with wall to wall carpeting and a lofted bed.
这是一个方形的房间，铺着地毯，还有一张高架床。
It sits by the side of a swamp.
它坐落在沼泽旁边。
The entire back side of the house is made of shuttered glass windows.
房子的整个背面都是由百叶窗玻璃窗组成的。
There's air conditioning, but in the muggy Orlando weather, it's not enough.
有空调，但在奥兰多闷热的天气里，这还不够。
Well, we also know from one of the people in that room, according to accounts of what he said, it was hot.
嗯，我们还从那个房间里的一个人那里得知，根据他的说法，天气很热。
It was very hot.
天气非常热。
He was sweating that night.
那天晚上他满头大汗。
David says they began questioning Ibragim about the Waltham murders.
大卫说，他们开始向易卜拉欣询问沃尔瑟姆谋杀案。
The interview started at 7:30.
采访于7点30分开始。
In those rooms, if you've ever seen tapes of interrogations taking place-- and I have-- they are fraught with tension, accusation.
在那些房间里，如果你看过审讯录像——我也看过——它们充满了紧张和指控。
They're pushing him.
他们在推他。
That's what interrogators do.
这就是审讯者所做的。
Push him.
推他。
No, I don't believe that.
不，我不相信。
No, I don't believe that.
不，我不相信。
You're telling me this, that, whatever.
你告诉我这个，那个，无论如何。
It's churning up conflict and stress.
它正在激起冲突和压力。
And they are trained to deal in stress when they're doing interrogations to break down their suspect.
他们接受过训练，可以在审讯以破获嫌疑人时应对压力。
At some point close to midnight, according to the accounts of one of the people in that room, Todashev said, look, I was there, but I didn't do the murders.
据那个房间里的一个人的说法，在接近午夜的某个时刻，托达舍夫说，看，我在那里，但我没有杀人。
This, according to David's sources, was Ibragim's confession.
根据大卫的消息来源，这是易卜拉欣的供述。
If it's true, that means Ibragim was, at the very least, an accessory to murder.
如果这是真的，那就意味着易卜拉欣至少是谋杀案的同谋。
David says one of the state troopers went out of the room to make a phone call back to Massachusetts.
大卫说，一名州警走出房间，给马萨诸塞州打电话。
The other two interviewers were left in the room with Ibragim as he was about to write down his confession.
当易卜拉吉姆准备写下他的供词时，另外两名采访者和他一起留在了房间里。
According to David's sources, the trooper in the room sent a text message to the FBI agent right next to him that Ibragim looked like he was going to go off.
据大卫的消息来源称，房间里的警察给他旁边的联邦调查局特工发了一条短信，说易卜拉欣看起来要走了。
And it is at that point that Todashev is said to have flipped the table and gone after the FBI agent.
据说就在那时，托达舍夫翻转了桌子，追捕联邦调查局特工。
The trooper says he never saw a human move as fast as Todashev did.
这名士兵说，他从未见过有人像托达舍夫那样移动得那么快。
The trooper also says that Todashev picked up a pipe, that he came at the trooper, and that he would have smashed his skull with the pipe if the FBI agent hadn't shot him.
这名警官还说，托达舍夫拿起一根管子，他冲向这名警官，如果联邦调查局特工没有开枪打死他，他就会用管子砸碎他的头骨。
Todashev comes over the table.
托达舍夫走过桌子。
The FBI agent, recovering, fires three shots.
联邦调查局探员正在康复，开了三枪。
Todashev went down to his knee and then got up.
托达舍夫跪下，然后站起来。
And then the second round of four bullets was fired by the FBI agent, and he went down and stayed down.
然后FBI特工又发射了第二发四颗子弹，他就倒下了，呆了下来。
From all the stories I've heard about Ibragim's temper, it seems very possible that he could have lunged or lashed out in a frustrating situation, and that an agent could have felt threatened by it.
从我听过的所有关于易卜拉欣脾气的故事来看，他很可能在令人沮丧的情况下猛冲或猛烈攻击，而特工可能会因此感到威胁。
But I also want to point out that, from my reporting, it's perfectly possible Ibragim could have blown up at an agent in that situation even if he was completely innocent of the murders.
但我还想指出，从我的报道来看，即使易卜拉吉姆对谋杀完全无辜，他也完全有可能在那种情况下向一名特工发脾气。
His friend Khusen told TV reporters that the day of that final interview, Ibragim told him he was afraid agents were going to frame him for something.
他的朋友库森告诉电视台记者，最后一次采访的那天，易卜拉欣告诉他，他担心特工会因某些事情陷害他。
He felt.
他感觉。
He had a bad feeling, because he felt like there was going to be setup.
他有一种不好的预感，因为他感觉有什么阴谋。
He felt like there was going to be setup, bad setup against him, you know what I mean?
他觉得将会有针对他的陷害，糟糕的陷害，你明白我的意思吗？
Because he felt-- he told me, like, they're making up such a crazy stuff.
因为他觉得——他告诉我，他们正在编造如此疯狂的东西。
I don't know why they're doing it.
我不知道他们为什么要这样做。
Why are they doing it?
他们为什么这么做？
OK, I'm answering the questions, but they're still making up some connection, some crazy stuff.
好吧，我正在回答这些问题，但他们仍在建立一些联系，一些疯狂的东西。
I don't know why they're doing it.
我不知道他们为什么要这样做。
Five hours of intense accusations for a murder he knew he didn't commit?
五个小时的激烈指控是为了一场他明知自己没有犯下的谋杀案？
That could make Ibragim explode too.
这也可能让易卜拉欣爆炸。
Ibrahim's wife told me that FBI agents told her that they had DNA evidence against Ibragim.
易卜拉欣的妻子告诉我，联邦调查局特工告诉她，他们有针对易卜拉欣的 DNA 证据。
But if that was the case, why didn't they arrest him?
但如果是这样的话，他们为什么不逮捕他呢？
Did they not have enough evidence for an indictment?
他们没有足够的证据来起诉吗？
I believe that the night of that final interview, any evidence they had against Ibragim was thin.
我相信在最后一次面谈的那天晚上，他们掌握的任何针对易卜拉欣的证据都很薄弱。
I believe that because they didn't arrest him, and because many people told me that the FBI kept investigating Ibragim after he was dead.
我相信这一点，因为他们没有逮捕他，也因为很多人告诉我，联邦调查局在易卜拉欣死后一直在调查他。
And yes, the FBI might have kept interviewing people even if they had tons of evidence already, but it almost seems like they were starting an investigation into Ibragim from scratch.
是的，联邦调查局可能会继续采访人们，即使他们已经掌握了大量证据，但他们似乎是从头开始对易卜拉欣进行调查。
Employees at MMA gyms, Ibragim's former roommate, people who worked in the hookah bar plaza, people far from the murder, they all told me the FBI came around asking very basic questions about Ibragim after his death.
MMA 体育馆的员工、易卜拉吉姆的前室友、在水烟酒吧广场工作的人、远离谋杀案的人，他们都告诉我，联邦调查局在易卜拉欣死后询问了有关易卜拉吉姆的非常基本的问题。
Lawyers at CARE, the Council on American Islamic Relations, told me in the weeks after Ibragim was killed they were getting frantic calls from Ibragim's acquaintances around the country saying the FBI was trying to talk to them.
美国伊斯兰关系委员会（CARE）的律师告诉我，在易卜拉吉姆被杀后的几周内，他们接到易卜拉吉姆在全国各地的熟人打来的疯狂电话，称联邦调查局正在试图与他们交谈。
When the FBI did manage to get Ashur into an interview room four months later, this guy who'd never been to Boston, who'd only known him Ibragim for a year, they grilled him for hours about Ibragim and the Waltham murders, murders that, allegedly, Ibragim had already confessed to being involved in.
四个月后，当联邦调查局设法让阿舒尔进入审讯室时，这个从未去过波士顿、只认识易卜拉吉姆一年的家伙，他们就易卜拉吉姆和沃尔瑟姆谋杀案盘问了他几个小时，据称易卜拉欣已经承认参与了这些谋杀案。
One reasonable explanation for all these interviews, and for the FBI and Massachusetts investigators to keep the murder case open, is that they think maybe there are other accomplices out there.
对于所有这些采访以及联邦调查局和马萨诸塞州调查人员对谋杀案保持开放的一个合理解释是，他们认为也许还有其他同谋。
But I believe there's still a lot about this case they don't know.
但我相信这个案子还有很多事情他们不知道。
We may never find out who killed those three men, or why they were killed.
我们可能永远不会知道是谁杀了这三个人，或者他们为什么被杀。
If Ibragim were still alive, we may have had a better chance to get to the bottom of this.
如果易卜拉欣还活着，我们可能有更好的机会查出真相。
But instead, the FBI and the Massachusetts State Police decided to interrogate a trained fighter with a hair trigger temper in his own overheated apartment for five hours.
但联邦调查局和马萨诸塞州警察却决定在一名训练有素、脾气暴躁的战士在自己过热的公寓里审问他五个小时。
Susan Zalkind.
苏珊·扎尔金德。
She reported a version of this story for Boston magazine this month.
她本月为《波士顿》杂志报道了这个故事的一个版本。
A link to that story, which has some interesting details and people that we could not fit into an hour long program, is at our website, thisamericanlife.org, or just Google your way to Boston magazine's website.
这个故事有一些有趣的细节和人物，我们无法在一个小时的节目中找到它的链接，可以在我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org 上找到，或者通过 Google 访问《波士顿》杂志的网站。
[MUSIC - MICHAEL BRETT, "I'M TAKING ALL MY SECRETS TO THE GRAVE"]
[音乐 - 迈克尔·布雷特，“我要把我所有的秘密带进坟墓”]
Well, our program was produced today by Brian Reed and our senior producer, Julie Snyder, with Alex Blumberg, Ben Calhoun, Sean Cole, Stephanie Foo, Sarah Koenig, [INAUDIBLE], Jonathan Menjivar, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
好吧，我们的节目今天由布莱恩·里德 (Brian Reed) 和我们的高级制片人朱莉·斯奈德 (Julie Snyder) 以及亚历克斯·布伦伯格 (Alex Blumberg)、本·卡尔霍恩 (Ben Calhoun)、肖恩·科尔 (Sean Cole)、斯蒂芬妮·福 (Stephanie Foo)、莎拉·科尼格 (Sarah Koenig)、[听不清]、乔纳森·门吉瓦 (Jonathan Menjivar)、罗宾·塞米恩 (Robyn Semien)、艾丽莎·希普 (Alissa Shipp) 和南希·厄普代克 (Nancy Updike) 共同制作。
Seth Lind is our operations director.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的运营总监。
Emily Condon's our production manager.
艾米丽·康登是我们的生产经理。
Elise Bergerson's our administrative assistant.
埃莉斯·伯格森是我们的行政助理。
Adrianne Mathiowetz runs our website.
阿德琳娜·马修韦茨 (Adrianne Mathiowetz) 负责运营我们的网站。
Production help from Allison Davis.
艾莉森·戴维斯提供制作帮助。
Research help today from Michelle Harris.
米歇尔·哈里斯今天提供研究帮助。
Music help from Damien Grey, from Rob Gettis.
达米安·格雷 (Damien Grey) 和罗布·盖蒂斯 (Rob Gettis) 提供音乐帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
[致谢]《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人托里·马拉蒂亚 (Torey Malatia)。
You know, I learned this really weird thing about his mother.
你知道，我了解到他母亲的一件非常奇怪的事情。
Oh, wait, what?
哦，等等，什么？
What's that, Torey?
那是什么，托里？
You say something about my mother, I will kill you.
你敢说我妈妈的事，我就杀了你。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
[MUSIC - MICHAEL BRETT, "I'M TAKING ALL MY SECRETS TO THE GRAVE"]
[音乐 - 迈克尔·布雷特，“我要把我所有的秘密带进坟墓”]
Announcer PRI.
播音员 PRI。
Public Radio International.
国际公共广播电台。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。