516: Stuck In The Middle - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #516 | January 17, 2014 516: Stuck In The Middle Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 516 集 | 2014 年 1 月 17 日 516：卡在中间 注：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Elias stopped eating meat when he was three or four.
序言 艾拉·格拉斯·埃利亚斯三四岁时就不再吃肉了。
His mom can't remember-- it's been so long.
他妈妈不记得了——已经过去太久了。
He's seven now.
他现在七岁了。
And he doesn't think that anybody else should eat meat either, and he freaks out.
他认为其他人也不应该吃肉，他吓坏了。
He cried and pleaded at his grandmother's at New Year's when he heard that she might cook brisket, until she offered not to.
新年时，当他听说祖母可以做牛胸肉时，他哭着恳求她，直到她提出不这样做。
There was the time that he got so upset in a restaurant smelling the meat cooking in the kitchen and seeing all the people around them eat their meals that he had to go sit up front by the door.
有一次，他在一家餐馆里闻到厨房里煮肉的味道，看到周围的人都在吃饭，他感到非常不安，他不得不走到门口坐在前面。
And it kills him especially to think that his little brother might still be eating animals.
尤其是一想到他的弟弟可能还在吃动物，他就感到很伤心。
His brother, Theo, just turned five and emphatically is not a vegetarian.
他的弟弟西奥刚刚五岁，显然他不是素食主义者。
What a surprise, two brothers.
两兄弟真是太惊喜了。
Their mom, Rachel, says that Theo is not asking to eat meat in front of Elias.
他们的妈妈雷切尔说西奥并没有要求在埃利亚斯面前吃肉。
He's not asking to eat it all that often.
他并不要求经常吃这些东西。
He wants to eat meat sometimes.
他有时想吃肉。
And I think he feels it's not fair that Elias-- he calls him the god of food-- and that Elias doesn't have the right to be the god of food and tell Theo what to do.
我认为他觉得埃利亚斯——他称他为食物之神——是不公平的，而且埃利亚斯没有权利成为食物之神并告诉西奥该做什么。
It causes a lot of conflict, and I think there are conversations almost every single day around this.
它引起了很多冲突，我认为几乎每天都有围绕这个问题的对话。
She recorded one of those conversations for us when she was taking Theo, the meat eater, to a party.
当她带着肉食者西奥去参加一个聚会时，她为我们录下了其中一段对话。
There was going to be food at the party, and his brother was going to be there, the god of food.
聚会上要有食物，他的哥哥，食神也会在场。
What would Theo eat?
西奥会吃什么？
So Theo, we're going to this potluck.
西奥，我们要去参加聚餐了。
What do you think's going to be there?
你认为那里会有什么？
Well, I hope there's meat.
嗯，希望有肉。
And if you give me meat, just let me eat it.
如果你给我肉，就让我吃吧。
So what do you think would happen if you ate meat at the potluck?
那么，如果你在聚餐时吃肉，你认为会发生什么？
You and Elias would fight?
你和埃利亚斯会打架吗？
Theo Yeah.
西奥 是的。
Well, that would be bad.
嗯，那会很糟糕。
But I don't know what's going to happen.
但我不知道会发生什么。
Tonight is a night for Elias' class.
今晚是埃利亚斯的课之夜。
Do you think you could not eat meat tonight so he doesn't have to have a freak out in front of all of his friends?
你认为你今晚不能吃肉，这样他就不必在他所有的朋友面前发疯吗？
What do you think?
你怎么认为？
No. I want to eat some because he always says don't eat any meat for the rest of your life.
不，我想吃一些，因为他总是说你的余生不要吃任何肉。
I know.
我知道。
I think things will change when he gets older.
我认为当他长大后，情况会有所改变。
But I just want you to think about whether or not you think it's worth it for him to scream and yell at school tonight with all of his friends, OK?
但我只是想让你想想，你认为他今晚和他所有的朋友在学校尖叫和大喊是否值得，好吗？
Think about that.
想想看。
OK?
好的？
Deal?
交易？
Well, when he's not looking, I'll eat some.
好吧，趁他不注意的时候，我就吃点。
Hmm.
唔。
Ira Glass Do you think this gives Elias too much power over Theo?
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 你是否认为这让埃利亚斯（Elias）对西奥（Theo）拥有过多的权力？
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, it's definitely a concern.
我的意思是，这绝对是一个问题。
And at some point, probably a year into his vegetarianism, he asked that we wouldn't be eating meat either and that the house wouldn't have any meat.
在某个时候，大概是他吃素一年后，他要求我们也不要吃肉，家里也不要有任何肉。
And that was something that my husband and I had to take a step back and think about.
这是我和我丈夫必须退一步思考的事情。
And people would say to us, how can you have your seven-year-old making decisions about how you're going to be running your family?
人们会对我们说，你怎么能让你七岁的孩子决定你将如何管理你的家庭？
And I guess our response has always been, you have to hear how our child talks about meat and how it feels to him when he sees us eat meat and other people around him and his close family eating meat.
我想我们的反应一直是，你必须听听我们的孩子如何谈论肉，以及当他看到我们吃肉以及他周围的其他人和他的亲密家人吃肉时他的感受如何。
It's such a painful experience for him.
这对他来说是一次非常痛苦的经历。
OK, I just want to say before we go any further, if you are hearing all this and you're feeling judgy about these parents-- and I know you are because that is a national pastime, judging other people's parenting-- I just want to say I totally felt that way until I heard Elias, just like she says.
好吧，在我们继续讨论之前，我只想说，如果你听到这一切，并且对这些父母感到评判——我知道你是因为评判别人的养育方式是一种全国性的消遣——我只想说，在我听到埃利亚斯之前，我完全有这种感觉，就像她说的那样。
And hearing Elias made me realize, oh, right.
听到埃利亚斯的话让我意识到，哦，对了。
She actually is in a really tough situation, where she has these two kids, and they both have really strong feelings about this.
事实上，她的处境非常艰难，她有两个孩子，他们对此都有着非常强烈的感受。
And she doesn't want to crush either one of them.
而且她不想压垮他们中的任何一个。
Anyway, listen.
无论如何，听着。
Here's Rachel with Elias.
这是雷切尔和埃利亚斯。
What made you decide to become a vegetarian?
是什么让你决定成为素食主义者？
Do you remember?
你是否记得？
Yep.
是的。
And so basically, I just always thought that how they got meat was finding dead animals, like on the side of the road or something.
所以基本上，我一直认为他们获取肉的方式是寻找死去的动物，比如在路边或其他地方。
But then I figured out they're actually killing them, and I thought it wasn't that nice.
但后来我发现他们实际上是在杀死他们，我觉得这不太好。
So I stopped eating it.
所以我不再吃它了。
What do you think about other people eating meat?
对于别人吃肉你怎么看？
I really don't like it.
我真的不喜欢它。
Rachel And what do you say about what you want to do with your life?
瑞秋 那么你觉得你一生想做什么？
Like, what's your goal in life?
比如，你的人生目标是什么？
One of your goals.
你的目标之一。
I know you have lots of them.
我知道你有很多。
To get everybody vegetarian.
让每个人都吃素。
Rachel And what do you feel about animals?
瑞秋 你对动物有什么看法？
I feel like, well-- Rachel Do you like them?
我觉得，嗯——雷切尔，你喜欢它们吗？
Yeah.
是的。
I love animals.
我喜欢动物。
And I know that there are only like 1,000 giant pandas left in the world.
我知道世界上只剩下大约1000只大熊猫了。
And also 30 Amur leopards, so they're pretty endangered.
还有 30 只阿穆尔豹，所以它们非常濒临灭绝。
What do you think about the way people treat animals in general?
您如何看待人们对待动物的一般方式？
Well, most of them not very nice.
嗯，他们中的大多数人都不是很好。
Like, think about lambs.
就像，想想羔羊。
They get killed for nothing.
他们无缘无故地被杀。
Every time you talk about that, you start to cry, huh?
每次说起这件事，你都会哭，是吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Rachel Lambs in particular are hard for you, huh?
雷切尔羔羊对你来说尤其困难，是吧？
The family did stop eating meat at home after Elias asked.
在埃利亚斯要求后，一家人确实不再在家吃肉了。
Though Rachel says that they actually didn't eat much meat before that either.
尽管雷切尔说他们实际上在那之前也没有吃多少肉。
Maybe once a week, they'd have fish or turkey.
也许每周一次，他们会吃鱼或火鸡。
And for now, she and her husband's strategy with their two boys is that they try to get them to talk to each other and see each other's point of view, crossing their fingers that in the long run that's going to be best for both of them.
目前，她和她丈夫对待两个儿子的策略是，尝试让他们互相交谈，了解彼此的观点，祈祷从长远来看这对他们俩都是最好的。
In the short run, though, it is complicated.
但从短期来看，情况很复杂。
You know, for any parent, there are always the things that you let go in the short run because you cannot fight every fight.
你知道，对于任何父母来说，总有一些事情是你在短期内放弃的，因为你不可能每场战斗都打。
And for a while, Theo, the one who eats meat, was secretly going out and getting turkey sandwiches with his dad after soccer.
有一段时间，吃肉的西奥在踢完足球后偷偷地出去和他爸爸一起吃火鸡三明治。
They would even dance this little turkey dance when they did it.
当他们这样做时，他们甚至会跳这种小火鸡舞。
Or here's Rachel with Theo, the meat eater, on a Thursday.
或者这是星期四，瑞秋和肉食者西奥。
Fridays, the boys' school serves pizza, and you can get plain or pepperoni.
周五，男子学校供应披萨，您可以选择原味披萨或意大利辣香肠。
And of course, Elias does not like it if Theo eats the pepperoni.
当然，埃利亚斯不喜欢西奥吃意大利辣香肠。
What do you think's going to happen tomorrow about the pepperoni pizza?
你认为明天意大利辣香肠披萨会发生什么？
Well, since we don't have lunch at the same time, he will ask me, and then I'll just lie to say, I got peanut butter and jelly or any other snacks.
好吧，因为我们不同时吃午饭，他会问我，然后我就撒谎说，我有花生酱和果冻或任何其他零食。
OK.
好的。
Think it's going to work?
你认为它会起作用吗？
Theo I don't know.
西奥我不知道。
It will be a hard choice to do peanut butter and jelly or cheese.
做花生酱和果冻或奶酪将是一个艰难的选择。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
But what are you really going to do?
但你到底要做什么？
So is it OK for your five-year-old to tell you they're going to deal with the situation just by lying to their siblings?
那么，您五岁的孩子可以告诉您他们将通过对兄弟姐妹撒谎来应对这种情况吗？
[SIGH] Well, I will say that we have come some way since that was taped, and we don't lie about it anymore.
[叹息]好吧，我会说自从录制以来我们已经取得了一些进展，我们不再对此撒谎了。
And that was sort of, I think, an interim fix.
我认为，这算是一种临时解决方案。
What made him stop lying?
是什么让他不再撒谎？
Rachel I think probably the more we are talking about it, the more I realized it didn't feel great.
雷切尔，我想我们谈论得越多，我就越意识到这感觉不太好。
And so I was sort of being more open with Elias and saying, you have to realize that this is the reality of who Theo is and who he has the right to be.
所以我对埃利亚斯更加开放，说，你必须意识到，这就是西奥是谁以及他有权成为谁的现实。
And Theo has his own choices, and he has the right to those choices, even though for you this doesn't make any sense right now.
西奥有他自己的选择，他有权做出这些选择，尽管对你来说这现在没有任何意义。
One of the things you recorded was a conversation where you're talking to him about whether Theo has the right to do this.
您录制的其中一件事是您与他讨论西奥是否有权这样做的对话。
Can you tell me a little bit about what happens with you and Theo, like when he wants to eat meat and you don't want him to and the pepperoni whole thing that happens every Friday?
你能告诉我一些你和西奥之间发生的事情吗，比如当他想吃肉而你不想让他吃的时候，以及每周五发生的意大利辣香肠的整个事情？
I normally kick him in the butt and yell at him a lot.
我通常会踢他的屁股并对他大喊大叫。
Yeah.
是的。
Rachel Hmm.
雷切尔 嗯。
Do you think that makes him want to eat meat less?
你认为这会让他想少吃肉吗？
No. Rachel Or do you think maybe the opposite?
不，雷切尔，或者你认为情况可能恰恰相反？
Opposite, probably.
可能是相反。
Rachel Hmm.
雷切尔 嗯。
And what do you think about when we talk about that you can't control other people and what they eat?
当我们谈论你无法控制其他人和他们吃什么时，你会怎么想？
What do you mean by that?
你这是什么意思？
Rachel That it's not your job to tell other people what to do about what they get to eat, right?
雷切尔：你的工作不是告诉别人如何处理他们吃的东西，对吗？
We've talked about that.
我们已经讨论过了。
Right.
正确的。
Rachel Do you think it's true that you don't have a right to tell other people what to do?
雷切尔：你认为你真的没有权利告诉别人该做什么吗？
Yeah, I guess.
是的，我想。
Rachel You guess.
雷切尔 你猜。
But it's hard?
但这很难吗？
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ira Glass I feel like when he says that, he's not totally sure he believes it yet.
Ira Glass 我觉得当他这么说时，他还不确定自己是否相信。
I know.
我知道。
[LAUGHS] I agree.
[笑]我同意。
Ira Glass You can hear in his voice, like, I know that this is the right thing to say--
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）你可以从他的声音中听出，就像，我知道这是正确的说法——
Exactly.
正是如此。
Ira Glass --but this can't be the truth, can it?
艾拉·格拉斯——但这不可能是事实，不是吗？
Exactly.
确切地。
(SIGHING) Yeah.
（叹气）是啊。
Ira Glass OK, an important fact-- Theo is not being crushed by Elias' demands.
艾拉·格拉斯 好吧，一个重要的事实是——西奥并没有被埃利亚斯的要求压垮。
If anything, between the two of them, Theo is the dominant brother in most situations.
如果说有什么不同的话，那就是在大多数情况下，在他们两人之间，西奥是占主导地位的兄弟。
He's outgoing, he's funny, he's a big personality in whatever room he walks into, and he gets his way with Elias all the time.
他很外向，很有趣，无论走进哪个房间，他都是一个很有个性的人，而且他总是按照自己的方式与埃利亚斯相处。
Like, for instance, when the family took this day trip to visit Rachel's mom and coincidentally it happened to be the day of a herring run, which comes once a year.
举个例子，当一家人去拜访雷切尔的妈妈的一日游时，碰巧那天恰巧是每年一次的鲱鱼奔跑日。
And so they stopped at this herring ladder, whatever that is.
所以他们在这个鲱鱼梯子前停了下来，不管那是什么。
We are cheering for the herring, and they're doing their final leap into the water to go back to their spawning grounds.
我们为鲱鱼欢呼，它们正在做最后一次跳入水中返回产卵场的动作。
And we finally leave, we go back to my mother's house, and Theo runs to the refrigerator, opens the door, pulls out the jar of herring, goes, mmm, I can't wait to eat that herring.
我们终于离开了，回到了我母亲的房子，西奥跑到冰箱前，打开门，拿出一罐鲱鱼，说，嗯，我迫不及待地想吃那条鲱鱼。
[LAUGHS] Rachel And it was just like, wow.
[笑] 雷切尔 这就像，哇。
And of course, there then became Elias pleading and crying and hoping and hoping that Theo wasn't going to eat those herring, that we just saw all of his cousins.
当然，随后埃利亚斯恳求、哭泣、希望西奥不要吃那些鲱鱼，我们只是看到了他所有的表兄弟。
Did he eat the herring?
他吃了鲱鱼吗？
Rachel Oh yes.
雷切尔 哦，是的。
So he ate the herring out on the porch.
于是他在门廊上吃了鲱鱼。
Elias, I think, cried in the living room.
我想，埃利亚斯在客厅里哭了。
Elias, however, is always coming up with new tactics.
然而，埃利亚斯总是想出新的策略。
Like in the car recently, he made this proposal to Theo involving matchbox cars, and Rachel flipped on the recorder.
就像最近在车里一样，他向西奥提出了这个涉及火柴盒汽车的提议，雷切尔打开了录音机。
So tell me what you were just saying, that, Elias, you had a plan.
告诉我你刚才说什么，埃利亚斯，你有一个计划。
What was the plan?
计划是什么？
You said, Theo, if you, what?
你说，西奥，如果你，怎么办？
Be a vegetarian for two weeks, I'll get you three new cars.
吃素两周，我给你买三辆新车。
Yay.
耶。
Rachel And what do you have to say?
雷切尔 你有什么要说的？
Thank ooo.
谢谢哦。
Rachel No, but does that seem like a fair deal?
雷切尔 不，但这看起来公平吗？
If you're a vegetarian for three weeks, you'd get three cars?
如果你吃素三周，你会得到三辆车？
Two.
二。
Rachel Two weeks.
雷切尔 两周。
Is it worth it to you?
对你来说值得吗？
Is that true, Momma?
妈妈，这是真的吗？
Will he really give me?
他真的会给我吗？
Yes.
是的。
Rachel This is not my negotiations.
雷切尔 这不是我的谈判。
Yes, I will.
是的，我会。
If you do it for three weeks, I'll give you eight.
如果你坚持三周，我就给你八周。
What will you give me if I do it one week?
如果我一周做完你会给我什么？
So this is where they are now.
所以这就是他们现在的处境。
Rachel and her husband insert themselves in the middle of these negotiations, or they get dragged into the middle between the two boys.
雷切尔和她的丈夫介入这些谈判，或者他们被拖到两个男孩之间。
As parents, they have to ad hoc their way through each new thing the boys come up with on this.
作为父母，他们必须临时解决男孩们在这方面提出的每一个新想法。
Like here with this matchbox deal, the boys could not agree on what is a critical part of any negotiation, of any contract, and that is the start date of the deal.
就像这个火柴盒交易一样，男孩们无法就任何谈判、任何合同的关键部分达成一致，那就是交易的开始日期。
Would their deal begin before or after Friday's pepperoni pizza day at school?
他们的交易是在周五学校的意大利辣香肠披萨日之前还是之后开始？
I'm getting pepperoni.
我要买意大利辣香肠。
Rachel So you want it to start after F--
Rachel 所以你希望它在 F 之后开始--
I'm starting on Saturday.
我周六开始。
Elias But being a vegetarian starts on Friday.
埃利亚斯 但是素食从周五开始。
Fine.
美好的。
It starts on Saturday.
从星期六开始。
Rachel All right, good.
雷切尔 好吧，很好。
But can you guys shake on it?
但你们能动摇吗？
I think this is--
我认为这是——
Well, today on our program, people stuck in the middle.
好吧，今天在我们的节目中，人们被困在中间。
You know the saying "necessity is the mother of invention?" Being stuck in the middle of some situation is just like that because that is when ingenuity has to kick in.
你知道“需要是发明之母”这句话吗？陷入困境就是这样，因为这时就需要发挥聪明才智。
That is when you see people trying to MacGyver their way out, trying stuff that it is surprising to see anyone try.
那时你就会看到人们试图用 MacGyver 来摆脱困境，尝试一些令人惊讶的东西。
We have three stories today of three radically different sorts of situations and their outcomes.
今天我们要讲的三个故事涉及三种截然不同的情况及其结果。
From WBEZ Chicago, it is This American Life , distributed by Public Radio International.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的节目是《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Do You Hear What I Hear?
第一幕，你听到我听到的吗？
So there's certain locations that we all find ourselves in sometimes where we're just supposed to sit and wait, stuck in the middle of not exactly nowhere, but nowhere interesting.
因此，我们有时会发现自己身处某些地方，我们只能坐下来等待，被困在一个不完全是无处可去的地方，但也没有什么有趣的地方。
I'm talking about the rows of chairs in airports that you sit in by the door for your flight, or doctor's office waiting rooms, and finally, the mundane spot that one man found himself in over and over.
我说的是机场里的一排排椅子，你在登机时坐在门口，或者是医生办公室的候诊室，最后是一个男人一次又一次发现自己身处的平凡地方。
Sara Corbett has this story about her father-in-law.
萨拉·科贝特有一个关于她岳父的故事。
I showed up for the first time at my father-in-law's house in 1992.
1992年，我第一次出现在岳父家。
He sat me down at the kitchen table, and we had a nice get-to-know-you sort of conversation.
他让我坐在厨房的桌子旁，我们进行了一次愉快的交谈。
I was 24.
那年我24岁。
Dick was about 60.
迪克当时大约 60 岁。
And he pulled out a pen and took notes on what I was saying.
他拿出一支笔，记下了我所说的话。
At the time, I had no idea why he was doing this.
当时，我不知道他为什么要这样做。
But Dick is like this about everything that interests him.
但迪克对所有他感兴趣的事情都是这样。
He spent his entire career working for IBM, going back to the '50s and '60s, when working at IBM was like working at NASA.
他的整个职业生涯都在 IBM 工作，可以追溯到 50 年代和 60 年代，当时在 IBM 工作就像在 NASA 工作一样。
The kind of problems he worked on took weeks or months to solve, and he loved it.
他所研究的这类问题需要数周或数月才能解决，他喜欢这样。
He's thorough, a process man.
他很彻底，是一个注重流程的人。
As Dick sees it, if something catches his attention, it's clearly worth gathering data on.
在迪克看来，如果有什么东西引起了他的注意，那么它显然值得收集数据。
And if it's worth gathering data on, it's worth getting to the bottom of, including, recently, a certain piece of music.
如果值得收集数据，那么就值得深入了解，包括最近的某首音乐。
Hello.
你好。
Could you do me a great favor?
你能帮我一个大忙吗？
This is a very unusual call, but you know the music you have, the holding music?
这是一个非常不寻常的电话，但你知道你的音乐，等待音乐吗？
When you put me on hold, it plays it.
当你让我等待时，它就会播放它。
Could you do that for me for a minute?
你能为我做一分钟吗？
That's Dick.
那是迪克。
And for the last two years, he's been very, very interested in a piece of hold music.
在过去的两年里，他对一段音乐非常非常感兴趣。
The first time I heard it, when I was talking to Stamford Hospital, that's the call that started the whole thing.
我第一次听到这个消息是在我与斯坦福医院交谈时，整个事情就是从这个电话开始的。
And I love the song.
我喜欢这首歌。
Just very unusual.
只是很不寻常。
It was bells and synthesizer, and I just-- clapping.
那是铃声和合成器，我只是——鼓掌。
It was an unusual piece.
这是一件不寻常的作品。
It's very hard to describe.
这很难描述。
He heard the hold music again when he called a medical billing center in Atlanta and again with his cardiologist.
当他给亚特兰大的一个医疗计费中心打电话时，他再次听到了等待音乐，并再次给他的心脏病专家打电话。
And he had a hernia, then a kidney stone.
他患有疝气，然后是肾结石。
This one song, it turns out, is the hold music for Dick's entire health care network.
事实证明，这首歌是迪克整个医疗保健网络的主打音乐。
He's 81, in great health, but 81 is 81, and he's the one who deals with all the appointments, the follow-ups, the billing, both for him and his wife, Marianne.
他已经 81 岁了，身体健康，但 81 岁就是 81 岁，他负责处理他和妻子玛丽安的所有预约、后续工作和账单。
So if I called any number of doctors in the area, I would hear that music.
因此，如果我给该地区的任意数量的医生打电话，我都会听到那种音乐。
And every time I heard it, it would just again remind me of what in the devil is that tune.
每次我听到它，它都会再次提醒我这首歌到底是什么。
He couldn't find the name of it.
他找不到它的名字。
He couldn't find it, period, anywhere except on hold.
除了搁置之外，他在任何地方都找不到它。
And of course, he took notes on the phone calls where he was hearing it because Dick takes notes on every phone call.
当然，他会在他听到的电话上做笔记，因为迪克在每个电话上都会做笔记。
The song's not in the databases of music apps like Shazam and SoundHound, by the way, Dick tried it.
这首歌不在 Shazam 和 SoundHound 等音乐应用程序的数据库中，顺便说一句，迪克尝试过。
To identify the song, he needed human help, and a surprising number of people in medical offices, strangers he met over the phone, were willing to take this on.
为了识别这首歌，他需要人的帮助，而医疗办公室里有数量惊人的人，他通过电话认识的陌生人，愿意接受这个工作。
These were exactly the kind of people Dick is always looking for when he's on a quest.
这些人正是迪克在执行任务时一直在寻找的人。
The kind of person that would get into it.
是那种会陷入其中的人。
A few people called their communications departments to see if they could turn anything up.
一些人打电话给他们的通讯部门，看看他们是否可以提供任何信息。
No luck.
运气不好。
A woman seven states away spent a whole weekend looking up songs online to try and find a match.
一位相距七个州的女士花了整个周末在网上查找歌曲，试图找到匹配的歌曲。
Dead end.
死胡同。
But you know who was the least helpful?
但你知道谁最没有帮助吗？
Dick's family.
迪克的家人。
We did not get into it.
我们没有深入其中。
Dick called us, his sons and daughters-in-law, and tried to hum the music over the phone.
迪克给我们，他的儿子和儿媳打电话，并试图在电话里哼着音乐。
We blew it off.
我们把它吹掉了。
Dick described the hold song as haunting, but it was like a ghost none of us saw or even believed in, and he could tell.
迪克形容这首歌令人难以忘怀，但它就像一个我们没有人见过、甚至不相信的鬼魂，他看得出来。
I think when you get older, you get more of that in your life, where people are questioning whether you're really seeing it right or you remember it right or whatever.
我认为当你变老时，你会在生活中遇到更多这样的事情，人们会质疑你是否真的看到了它，或者你是否记得正确，或者其他什么。
And that does get you to feel a little isolated, a little-- you know.
这确实会让你感到有点孤立，一点——你知道的。
Yes, you do.
是的，你知道。
I did feel a little bit that way.
我确实有一点这样的感觉。
And like I can't go on keep asking people what's this music all about, and I can't describe it, and you sort of find that you better just let it go.
就像我不能继续问人们这音乐是关于什么的，我无法描述它，你会发现你最好就放手吧。
And you don't want to, but it sort of fades after a while.
你不想这样做，但过了一段时间它就会消失。
Until you hear it again when you call another doctor's office, and then it's back.
直到你给另一位医生的办公室打电话时再次听到它，然后它又回来了。
So I'll put those in here.
所以我会把它们放在这里。
Sara Corbett This is Dick going through some of the overstuffed cabinets at my house in Maine.
莎拉·科贝特 这是迪克在我缅因州家里翻阅一些塞满东西的柜子。
He does this almost every time he comes to visit.
他几乎每次来拜访时都会这样做。
He'll spend entire weekends in our basement sorting out the tools we rarely use, collapsing all the empty cardboard boxes that accumulate down there.
他会花整个周末在我们的地下室整理我们很少使用的工具，并折叠那里堆积的所有空纸箱。
He'll sift through old papers, double check our tax returns.
他会仔细检查旧文件，仔细检查我们的纳税申报表。
He sees in my cabinets a bonanza of things that need sorting and labeling.
他在我的橱柜里看到了大量需要分类和贴标签的东西。
I think I'll get a box for all your goodies like this, one of those cardboard boxes, before we throw them out.
我想在我们把它们扔掉之前，我会拿一个盒子来装你所有的好东西，其中一个是纸板箱。
And I'll label it and put those together.
我会给它贴上标签并将它们放在一起。
This is the advantage of having a process man in the family.
这就是家里有一个流程男人的好处。
Dick stays with your problem until it's been solved, the cabinets or whatever.
迪克会一直处理你的问题，直到问题得到解决，无论是橱柜还是其他什么。
A couple of years ago, my husband and I were about to buy a new house when Dick swooped in and spent three days doing a copious market analysis, which made it clear that we were about to make a bad investment.
几年前，我和丈夫正准备买一套新房子，这时迪克突然介入，花了三天时间进行了大量的市场分析，这清楚地表明我们将做出一项糟糕的投资。
He doesn't let himself off the hook for anything, big or small, because things don't let him off the hook.
他不会为任何事情，无论大小，而让自己摆脱困境，因为事情不会让他摆脱困境。
This is his wife, Marianne.
这是他的妻子玛丽安。
Marianne With life or feelings or getting things right or doing it complete, there is nothing in his life that is inconsequential.
玛丽安 无论是生活、感情还是把事情做好或完成，他的生活中没有什么是无关紧要的。
Everything matters.
一切都很重要。
Can you think of anything that you've done that you did sloppily or hastily?
你能想到你做过的任何事情是你草率或仓促做的吗？
Not really.
并不真地。
Sara Corbett Nothing?
莎拉·科贝特 没什么？
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
I don't think so.
我不这么认为。
It would be just not in my vocabulary to do something and say, OK, that's good enough.
我的字典里没有这样的说法：做某事然后说，好吧，这就够了。
Let's go.
我们走吧。
And yet I don't say that's right.
但我并不认为这是正确的。
I really don't say that's right.
我真的不说这是对的。
And a lot of times I think that it's wrong, and I should be on to something else.
很多时候我认为这是错误的，我应该做点别的事情。
I can hear the music in my head now.
我现在可以听到脑海中的音乐。
[HUMMING]
[嗡嗡声]
This woman, Denise Carter Stanley, was Dick's jackpot.
这个女人，丹妮丝·卡特·斯坦利，是迪克的头彩。
She's the registrar at the medical imaging center where he went one day to get a CAT scan.
她是医学影像中心的登记员，有一天他去那里进行了 CAT 扫描。
Great gal.
很棒的女孩。
She was a single mom, and she had been going to school at night, and we talked about a lot of things.
她是一位单亲妈妈，晚上去学校，我们谈论了很多事情。
And she was the kind of person that would get into it.
而她就是那种愿意投入其中的人。
Denise is on hold a lot inside the larger hospital network.
丹尼斯在更大的医院网络中经常处于搁置状态。
She says she's been hearing the hold music every day for what she estimates is about an hour and a half a day for the last seven years.
她说，在过去的七年里，她每天都会听到等待音乐，她估计每天大约有一个半小时。
She likes the music.
她喜欢音乐。
The first time Dick walked into her office, there was Denise playing the hold music, his hold music, on speakerphone at her desk.
迪克第一次走进她的办公室时，丹尼斯在她办公桌上的免提电话上播放着等待音乐，他的等待音乐。
In seven years, have other people asked you about the hold music?
七年来，其他人有问过你关于hold音乐的问题吗？
Actually, they have.
事实上，他们有。
They have.
他们有。
But I just never got into it with them the way that he and I did.
但我从来没有像他和我那样与他们相处。
They were just like casually, yeah, that hold music, do you know who it's by?
他们就像是随意地，是的，放着音乐，你知道是谁唱的吗？
Like, no. But when he came in, it was really different.
就像，不。但当他进来的时候，情况真的不一样了。
It was like he was really interested and really wanted to know.
就好像他真的很感兴趣并且很想知道一样。
She called the IT department at her hospital.
她给医院的 IT 部门打电话。
They thought she was crazy.
他们认为她疯了。
She made more calls.
她又打了更多电话。
Let me see if I even still have all my information.
让我看看我是否还保留着所有信息。
Are you like Dick that you keep notes on all this stuff?
你像迪克一样对所有这些事情都做笔记吗？
Yeah, I do.
是的，我愿意。
[LAUGHS] Because sometimes you just get fixated on something, and you just have to know.
[笑]因为有时你只是专注于某件事，而你只需要知道。
And you can't rest until you know.
在你知道之前你不能休息。
Yes, very.
是的，非常。
Sara Corbett When you recognize somebody else who's persistent, do you have a special bond with them?
萨拉·科贝特（Sara Corbett） 当您认识到某个坚持不懈的人时，您是否与他们有特殊的联系？
Yes.
是的。
Because I know then they get me.
因为我知道他们会抓住我。
I get them, and they get me.
我理解他们，他们也理解我。
So is that how you feel about Dick, that he--
这就是你对迪克的感觉，他——
Yes.
是的。
Sara Corbett He's one of your tribe?
萨拉·科贝特 他是你们部落的一员？
Yes.
是的。
Sara Corbett Denise, digging around, finally turned up the key fact.
莎拉·科贝特·丹尼斯四处搜寻，终于发现了关键事实。
The music came from Cisco, the company that provides the hospital's phone system.
音乐来自提供医院电话系统的思科公司。
Cisco's the number one supplier of corporate phones like this in the world.
思科是全球此类企业电话的第一大供应商。
Dick went to his local library, and a woman there-- I want to say her name on the radio because she cracked the case.
迪克去了当地的图书馆，那里有一个女人——我想在广播中说出她的名字，因为她破获了这个案子。
Her name is Abby Sesselberg.
她的名字叫艾比·塞塞尔伯格。
She went to YouTube and found an audio recording.
她访问 YouTube 并找到了一段录音。
It's called simply "One Hour of Cisco Call Manager Default Hold Music."
它简称为“一小时的 Cisco Call Manager 默认保留音乐”。
OK.
好的。
[MUSIC - "OPUS NO. 1" BY TIM CARLETON AND DARRICK DEEL]
[音乐 - 蒂姆·卡尔顿和达里克·迪尔的“OPUS NO.1”]
There are hundreds of comments posted about this song, pages and pages.
关于这首歌、页面和页面有数百条评论。
And sure, some people can't stand it, but most of the comments are like this-- "Best hold music ever made.
当然，有些人无法忍受，但大多数评论都是这样的——“有史以来最好的音乐。
I love this song." "So addictively pleasant.
我喜欢这首歌。” “如此令人上瘾的愉快。
Please, put me back on hold so I can listen to it some more." "I work in a call center, and this music is the best to listen to after dealing with rude customers." "I thought I was the only person who loved this." "I've been looking for this song for almost three years." Dick read these comments with relief.
拜托，让我再等一下，这样我就可以再听一会儿。” “我在呼叫中心工作，在与粗鲁的客户打交道后，这首音乐是最好听的。” “我以为我是唯一喜欢这首歌的人。” “我找这首歌已经快三年了。” 迪克读着这些评论，松了口气。
"I just can't seem to help myself.
“我似乎无法控制自己。
I have been calling and asking another department on campus to put me on hold." See?
我一直在打电话要求校园的另一个部门让我暂停。”看到了吗？
She's calling and asking people to put her on hold because I love that hold music.
她打电话要求人们让她等待，因为我喜欢等待音乐。
You see there are other crazies, huh?
你看还有其他疯子吧？
Well, I must say from being compulsive about it in the early times when I was trying to find them, saying, why are you so compulsive about this?
好吧，我必须说，在我早期试图找到他们的时候，我对这件事有强迫症，我说，你为什么这么强迫症？
You crazy?
你疯了吗？
And then I started to read this, and I must say it did a lot for my mental health.
然后我开始读这篇文章，我必须说它对我的心理健康有很大帮助。
Yeah, you're feeling better about yourself now?
是啊，你现在自我感觉好点了吗？
[INAUDIBLE] Sara Corbett You're not alone.
[听不清] Sara Corbett 你并不孤单。
My mental condition, yeah.
我的精神状况，是的。
Sara Corbett The librarian also helped Dick find a title for the song.
萨拉·科贝特 图书管理员还帮助迪克找到了这首歌的标题。
It's called "Opus No. 1." And that's when I finally got into it.
它被称为“作品一号”。就在那时我终于开始参与其中。
Dick, this is for you.
迪克，这是给你的。
My name is Tim Carleton, and I am the composer of "Opus No. 1."
我叫蒂姆·卡尔顿，是《Opus No. 1》的作曲家。
[LAUGHS] Sara Corbett Do you know that about yourself?
[笑] Sara Corbett 你了解你自己吗？
Yeah, I don't really have much of a web presence.
是的，我确实没有太多的网络存在。
Tim was 16 years old when he wrote "Opus No. 1." It was recorded in 1989 on a four track tape by one of his high school buddies, Darrick Deel.
蒂姆创作《Opus No. 1》时年仅 16 岁。 1989 年，他的一位高中好友达里克·迪尔 (Darrick Deel) 将这首歌录制成四轨磁带。
Tim was a Yanni-loving computer nerd, messing around with a drum machine and a synthesizer in his parents' garage in California.
蒂姆是一位热爱雅尼的电脑迷，他在加州父母的车库里摆弄鼓机和合成器。
That five minutes of tape is now on 65 million Cisco phone sets worldwide as the default hold music.
现在，全球 6500 万部 Cisco 电话机上已将这五分钟的磁带作为默认等待音乐。
It's what everyone hears unless someone inside the system makes an effort to change it.
这是每个人都会听到的，除非系统内部有人努力改变它。
Tim was in his 20s when he got a call from Darrick about "Opus No. 1." Darrick had taken a job at Cisco designing phone systems.
当蒂姆 20 多岁的时候，他接到达里克打来的关于“Opus No. 1”的电话。达里克（Darrick）在思科（Cisco）找到了一份设计电话系统的工作。
And he's like, dude, if you send this over and give us permission to do this, we can make this the default.
他说，伙计，如果你把这个发送过来并允许我们这样做，我们就可以将其设为默认值。
I think I can get this in.
我想我可以把这个放进去。
And it was like putting an Easter egg in a DVD or software.
这就像将复活节彩蛋放入 DVD 或软件中一样。
Just like a little hidden gem that, oh yeah, the next time you're on hold, it might be my music.
就像一颗隐藏的小宝石，哦，是的，下次您等待时，它可能是我的音乐。
I just thought it would be a cool piece of trivia.
我只是觉得这会是一件很酷的琐事。
So and then technically, what happened?
那么从技术上来说，发生了什么？
So they license the music from you?
所以他们授权了你的音乐？
I mean, do they renew their license every few years?
我的意思是，他们每隔几年更新一次执照吗？
Like, are you making any money off of it?
比如，你从中赚钱吗？
Not a penny.
一分钱也没有。
So I think that's probably my most legit claim as a music artist.
所以我认为这可能是我作为音乐艺术家最合理的主张。
I didn't make any money from my music.
我没有从我的音乐中赚到任何钱。
Tim's not a musician anymore.
蒂姆不再是音乐家了。
He's an IT guy now.
他现在是一名 IT 人。
He manages the server at a bank in California.
他管理加利福尼亚州一家银行的服务器。
What is it like to be put on hold and hear your own music?
被搁置并听到自己的音乐是什么感觉？
It's really embarrassing when you're not expecting to hear that and then, all of a sudden, you have that memory pop up.
当你没想到会听到这样的话，然后突然，你的记忆突然出现时，这真的很尴尬。
I just start blushing immediately.
我立刻就开始脸红。
It's just a different time.
只是时间不同而已。
It's not the same person I am today.
今天的我和我不是同一个人。
So is it sort of like looking back at a picture of yourself from 1987 and saying, oh, why was I wearing that outfit?
这是否有点像回顾自己 1987 年的照片并说，哦，我为什么穿那套衣服？
So has it ever yielded anything good for you?
那么它有给你带来过什么好处吗？
I mean, if it hasn't made you money, has anybody ever bought you a drink in a bar, have you picked up women with it, or is there any--
我的意思是，如果它没有给你带来钱，有没有人在酒吧给你请过一杯饮料，你有没有用它泡过女人，或者有没有——
No. Sara Corbett --rock star application here?
不，Sara Corbett——摇滚明星申请在这里？
No, I don't think I've ever actually tried to use the, you know, I wrote the default hold music for a lot of companies.
不，我认为我从未真正尝试过使用我为很多公司编写的默认等待音乐。
[MUSIC - "OPUS NO. 1" BY TIM CARLETON AND DARRICK DEEL]
[音乐-“作品编号。 1" 作者：蒂姆·卡尔顿和达里克·迪尔]
Tim and Darrick are still friends, and Darrick's the only one after all these years making any sort of music.
蒂姆和达里克仍然是朋友，而达里克是这些年来唯一一个制作任何类型音乐的人。
He creates new ring tones for phones, which Tim admits he's a little jealous of.
他为手机创造了新的铃声，蒂姆承认他有点嫉妒。
It's something that people are choosing to put on their phone, as opposed to this music being forced on them.
人们选择将其安装在手机上，而不是强行将音乐强加给他们。
I think that would have been more entertaining to me.
我认为这对我来说会更有趣。
I see.
我明白了。
So yeah, so you feel like your music has been forced on millions of people.
所以是的，所以你会觉得你的音乐被强加给了数百万人。
[LAUGHS] Yes.
[笑]是的。
Sara Corbett So it's not exactly something to brag about.
Sara Corbett 所以这不是什么值得吹嘘的事情。
That's, I think, the source of my embarrassment, yeah.
我想这就是我尴尬的根源，是的。
I told Tim my father-in-law wanted a copy of the song to put on his iPod because he wants to play it around the house as he does chores and pays bills.
我告诉蒂姆，我的岳父想要将这首歌的副本放在他的 iPod 上，因为他想在家里做家务和支付账单时播放这首歌。
In the comments on YouTube, lots of people said they wanted a copy.
在 YouTube 的评论中，很多人表示想要一份。
Tim found this almost impossible to fathom.
蒂姆发现这几乎无法理解。
But he and Darrick sent it anyway, full fidelity, in stereo.
但他和达里克无论如何还是以完全保真度、立体声发送了它。
[MUSIC - "OPUS NO. 1" BY TIM CARLETON AND DARRICK DEEL]
[音乐-“作品编号。 1" 作者：蒂姆·卡尔顿和达里克·迪尔]
Sara Corbett is the co-author most recently of A House in the Sky .
萨拉·科贝特 (Sara Corbett) 最近与人合着了《天空之屋》(A House in the Sky)。
If you have not had enough of this song, "Opus 1" is available at better hospital phone systems and for a limited time at our website, thisamericanlife.org, in full fidelity stereo for your downloading needs.
如果您还没有听够这首歌，可以通过更好的医院电话系统以及我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org 限时下载“Opus 1”，以全保真立体声满足您的下载需求。
[MUSIC - "NOWHERE TO GO" BY THE FOUR FRESHMAN]
[音乐 - 四位新生的“无处可去”]
Coming up, the karate yid.
空手道即将登场。
That's not anti-Semitic, right, to say "yid"?
说“yid”并不是反犹太主义，对吧？
And if it is anti-Semitic, is it one of those anti-Semitic things that I'm allowed to say because I am a Jew?
如果它是反犹太主义的，那么这是我因为是犹太人而被允许说的反犹太主义事物之一吗？
Is even asking that question anti-Semitic?
甚至问这个问题也是反犹太主义吗？
Anyway, Orthodox Jews skilled in karate-- you'll see what I'm talking about in a minute-- from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
不管怎样，当我们的节目继续时，来自芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台的擅长空手道的正统犹太人——你很快就会明白我在说什么。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on the program, of course, we choose a theme, bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，每周的节目我们都会选择一个主题，为您带来关于该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's program, "Stuck in the Middle." Stories of people who cannot get out of some situation, some limbo they are caught in, and so they use ingenuity and guile or, anyway, unconventional means to get themselves unstuck.
今天的节目是《夹在中间》。讲述人们无法摆脱某种处境、陷入困境的故事，因此他们使用聪明才智和诡计，或者无论如何，非常规手段来摆脱困境。
We have arrived at Act Two of our show.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two, Sunrise, Sun-Get.
第二幕，日出，日出。
This past October, there was a kind of wacky news story that was news for a day or so in New York City.
去年十月，有一则古怪的新闻报道在纽约市新闻了一天左右。
It was on the cover of the tabloids.
它登上了小报的封面。
It was on all the local news channels in the tri-state area.
这件事出现在三州地区所有的当地新闻频道上。
And at its heart were people stuck in a kind of limbo.
从本质上讲，人们陷入了一种困境。
Mark Oppenheimer has more.
马克·奥本海默还有更多。
The news was pretty startling.
这个消息相当令人震惊。
A group of men, including a Brooklyn rabbi named Mendel Epstein, had been arrested for conspiring to kidnap a husband and torture him until he gave his wife a get.
一群男子，其中包括布鲁克林一位名叫孟德尔·爱泼斯坦的拉比，因密谋绑架一名丈夫并折磨他直到他放过他的妻子而被捕。
The get is simply a piece of paper a husband hands his wife saying, essentially, it's over.
得到的只是丈夫递给妻子的一张纸，说，本质上，一切都结束了。
We're divorced.
我们离婚了。
Jews can get civil divorces like anyone else.
犹太人可以像其他人一样进行民事离婚。
But if you're an Orthodox Jew, strictly following Jewish law, the get is the only real way to end a marriage.
但如果你是正统犹太人，严格遵守犹太法律，那么得到是结束婚姻的唯一真正方法。
Usually this goes off without a hitch.
通常这一切都会顺利进行。
But sometimes a woman wants to get divorced and the husband refuses to give a get.
但有时女人想离婚，丈夫却不肯。
That's where Rabbi Epstein came in.
这就是拉比·爱泼斯坦进来的地方。
According to the complaint, Epstein talked about forcing compliance through the use of tough guys who utilize electric cattle prods, karate, handcuffs, and place plastic bags over the heads of the husbands.
根据起诉书，爱泼斯坦谈到了通过使用强硬的手段来迫使丈夫遵守规定，这些人使用电牛棒、空手道、手铐，并将塑料袋套在丈夫的头上。
The criminal complaint against Epstein and a fellow rabbi named Martin Wolmark alleged that the rabbis agreed to arrange a beat down of a reluctant husband, and they were asking for more than $50,000 to do it.
针对爱泼斯坦和一位名叫马丁·沃尔马克（Martin Wolmark）的拉比同事的刑事起诉称，拉比们同意安排殴打一位不情愿的丈夫，并为此索要超过 5 万美元。
Here's the US attorney for New Jersey, Paul Fishman, laying this all out to the press.
新泽西州美国检察官保罗·菲什曼 (Paul Fishman) 向媒体讲述了这一切。
The charges are kidnapping and extortion, violent crime, to get Jewish men to give divorces that they wouldn't otherwise give.
这些指控包括绑架、勒索、暴力犯罪、迫使犹太男子离婚，而他们原本不会离婚。
And it's not really an exercise of religion, it's really about money and violent crime.
这并不是真正的宗教活动，它实际上是关于金钱和暴力犯罪的。
When the story first broke, what kind of got lost is that it's not just about cash, karate, and cattle prods, it's also about women who were stuck, essentially trapped in failed marriages.
当这个故事第一次曝光时，迷失的是，这不仅仅是关于现金、空手道和牛棒，它还涉及陷入困境的女性，本质上是陷入失败婚姻的女性。
For the past couple years, as a religion reporter, I've been interviewing Jewish women in just this situation.
在过去的几年里，作为一名宗教记者，我一直在这种情况下采访犹太妇女。
And it can be pretty horrible.
这可能非常可怕。
Some men refuse to give a get because they still love their wives and hope to reconcile.
有些男人拒绝付出，因为他们仍然爱他们的妻子并希望复合。
But others just want leverage so they can demand, for example, lots of money.
但其他人只是想要杠杆，这样他们就可以要求很多钱。
Anywhere between half a million and $2 million, depending on the day and, I guess, the position of the sun in the sky.
五十万到两百万美元之间，具体取决于日期，以及我猜太阳在天空中的位置。
This is Gital Dodelson.
我是吉塔尔·多德尔森。
She's an Orthodox Jewish woman, and she's what's known as an agunah.
她是一位东正教犹太妇女，她就是所谓的阿古纳。
That's the word in Hebrew for a woman whose husband refuses to give her a divorce.
这个词在希伯来语中是指丈夫拒绝与她离婚的女人。
Literally it means a chained wife.
从字面上看，它的意思是被锁链锁住的妻子。
Besides money, lots of money, Gital says her husband has a long list of demands for her to meet if she wants her get.
吉塔尔说，除了钱，很多钱之外，如果她想要得到她的丈夫，她的丈夫还有一长串要求她必须满足。
I have a four-year-old son.
我有一个四岁的儿子。
He wants 50-50 custody, where my son would be a week with me and a week with him.
他想要 50-50 的监护权，我儿子和我在一起一周，和他在一起一周。
But Gital lives in New Jersey.
但吉塔尔住在新泽西州。
Her husband's on Staten Island.
她丈夫在斯塔滕岛。
The boy would have to enroll in two schools and alternate weeks.
这个男孩必须轮流在两所学校注册。
Keep in mind, Gital already has a civil divorce, and the custody and financial arrangements have been settled by a judge.
请记住，Gital 已经办理民事离婚，监护权和财务安排已由法官解决。
Gital says that her husband, who, by the way, didn't return my calls, is always changing what he's asking for.
吉塔尔说，她的丈夫一直在改变他的要求，顺便说一句，他没有回我的电话。
At one point, she says, he demanded they get rid of the coordinator who's overseeing the custody of their son.
她说，有一次，他要求他们解雇负责监督儿子监护权的协调员。
Another time, he insisted that she promise to tell the boy someday that the divorce was all his mother's fault.
还有一次，他坚持要她答应有一天告诉男孩，离婚都是他母亲的错。
Gital says she should have seen it coming.
吉塔尔说她应该预见到这一点。
I was young and dumb.
我年轻又愚蠢。
And there were a lot of things that maybe should have been red flags that I wasn't paying attention to.
还有很多事情可能应该是我没有注意到的危险信号。
While we were dating, he told me once that he's always right.
当我们约会时，他有一次告诉我他总是对的。
Now, I laughed because I don't know who says that when-- no one says that seriously, so I assumed he was joking.
现在，我笑了，因为我不知道是谁这么说的——没有人认真地这么说，所以我以为他是在开玩笑。
And he wasn't joking.
他不是在开玩笑。
A week into my marriage, I was looking back and kicking myself because, I mean, I should have stopped dating him right there.
结婚一周后，我回首过去并责备自己，因为我的意思是，我当时就应该停止和他约会。
But I didn't realize.
但我没有意识到。
And by the time I realized, it was too late.
当我意识到时，已经太晚了。
I actually find it easier to explain now that he hasn't given a get for four years because the way he's trying to control me now through the get, that's what he tried to do throughout the whole marriage.
事实上，我发现现在更容易解释他已经四年没有给予任何回报了，因为他现在试图通过获取来控制我的方式，这就是他在整个婚姻中试图做的事情。
Everything was subject to his control and subject to his demands.
一切都听从他的掌控，听从他的要求。
He had to have a final say in everything, even in what we were having for supper, or the brand of laundry detergent that I used, or anything.
他必须对所有事情有最终决定权，甚至是我们晚饭吃什么，或者我使用的洗衣粉品牌，或者任何事情。
And nothing was too small for him to care about.
没有什么是小到他不能关心的。
Of course, there are always two sides to every divorce, and I tried to get her husband's side.
当然，每次离婚总是有两面性，我试图站在她丈夫一边。
When he didn't call back, I tried his parents, his uncle, even his grandmother-- his bubbe-- and none of them would talk to me.
当他没有回电话时，我尝试了他的父母、他的叔叔，甚至他的祖母——他的宝贝——但他们都不愿意跟我说话。
I finally spoke with her husband's lawyer, who disputed nearly every one of Gital's assertions.
我最终与她丈夫的律师进行了交谈，他对吉塔尔的几乎每一项主张都提出了异议。
He said the sticking points for his client are tiny, reasonable things like what hour on Friday he can pick up his son so he doesn't have to drive after Sabbath begins at sundown.
他说，他的客户面临的症结是一些微小而合理的事情，比如周五什么时间他可以接他的儿子，这样他就不必在安息日日落之后开车。
But Gital's side of the story has been backed up by a rabbinic court called a beis din.
但吉塔尔的说法得到了一个名为 beis din 的拉比法庭的支持。
A beis din is a group of three rabbis Orthodox Jews sometimes turn to to settle disputes outside the civil courts.
beis din 是由三名正统犹太人拉比组成的团体，有时会求助于民事法庭之外的解决争端。
When her husband wouldn't give a get, Gital tried to bring him before the beis din.
当她的丈夫不肯答应时，吉塔尔试图把他带到餐桌前。
But he refused to show up.
但他拒绝露面。
So the rabbis issued something called a seruv.
因此，拉比们发布了一种叫做“servv”的东西。
It's basically a contempt of court.
这基本上是藐视法庭。
It's supposed to ostracize him in the community.
这应该会在社区中排斥他。
Gital's brother Aryeh is a full time scholar of Jewish law, and he says the seruv is usually an effective tool.
吉塔尔的兄弟阿耶是一名全职犹太法律学者，他说服务通常是一种有效的工具。
A seruv is, if followed properly by the community, an incredibly powerful thing.
如果社区正确遵循，服务将是一件非常强大的事情。
It sort of cuts them off from every aspect of Jewish life.
这有点切断了他们与犹太人生活的各个方面的联系。
I mean, you can't stand within 6 feet of him, 6 square feet, 8 square feet, whatever it is of him.
我的意思是，你不能站在他的 6 英尺、6 平方英尺、8 平方英尺之内，无论他是什么。
You can't count him for a minyan.
你不能把他算作一个民彦。
The minyan is the quorum of 10 men needed for an Orthodox prayer service.
Minyan 是东正教祈祷仪式所需的 10 人的法定人数。
It's sort of like telling a devout Catholic that he can't receive communion.
这有点像告诉一个虔诚的天主教徒他不能接受圣餐。
You can't give him an aliyah.
你不能给他回国。
He can't be called up to the Torah in shul, which is a big honor, and he doesn't get that anymore.
他不能被征召参加舒尔托拉，这是一个很大的荣誉，但他不再得到这个了。
He can't serve as a hazzan there in the shul.
他不能在舒尔担任哈赞。
Chanting prayer.
念诵祈祷文。
He can't do that.
他不能那样做。
You're supposed to boycott his business, I think.
我认为你应该抵制他的生意。
Well, you can't be near him, right?
嗯，你不能靠近他，对吧？
You can't be near him.
你不能靠近他。
And so theoretically, if followed properly, it should be enough to both shame them as well as, on a practical level, they're losing all their contacts.
因此，从理论上讲，如果遵循得当，应该足以让他们感到羞耻，而且在实践层面上，他们会失去所有的联系方式。
You're not supposed to talk to him.
你不应该和他说话。
You can't give him a ride, can't do him a favor.
你不能搭他一程，不能帮他一个忙。
This sort of ostracism would have worked back in the old country, where you spent your whole life around the same couple thousand people.
这种排斥在你的祖国会产生作用，在那里你的一生都是围绕着同样的几千人度过的。
If you were the village cobbler and all of a sudden you had no customers, you probably figured that it made sense to give your wife a get.
如果你是村里的鞋匠，突然间没有顾客了，你可能会认为给你妻子一个机会是有意义的。
But in the modern world, a seruv doesn't always work so well.
但在现代世界，服务并不总是那么有效。
Aryeh believes that the Orthodox Jews on Staten Island, where his brother-in-law lives, are still treating him like one of their own.
阿耶认为，他姐夫居住的史泰登岛的东正教犹太人仍然把他当作自己的同胞一样对待。
So the shaming and community pressure isn't working.
所以羞辱和社区压力不起作用。
Gital, of course, could just walk away.
当然，吉塔尔也可以走开。
She's already got her civil divorce.
她已经民事离婚了。
The finances are all settled, so is the child custody, but she can't get remarried.
经济都解决了，孩子的抚养权也解决了，但她却不能再婚。
She's a 25-year-old woman.
她是一名 25 岁的女性。
She'd like to have more kids.
她想要更多的孩子。
And I should point out most Jews wouldn't care.
我应该指出大多数犹太人不会关心。
Plenty of less religious Jews would be happy to marry Gital.
许多不那么虔诚的犹太人会很乐意嫁给吉塔尔。
But in the Orthodox world, where she was raised, where her whole family is, where she wants to stay, she can't make a new life for herself.
但在她长大的东正教世界里，在她的整个家庭所在的地方，在她想留下的地方，她无法为自己创造新的生活。
Her ex-husband can cast about for a new wife and then give Gital a get if he finds somebody, but for Gital it's different.
她的前夫可以四处寻找新妻子，如果找到了，就给吉塔尔一个机会，但对吉塔尔来说，情况不同。
What would it be like-- I mean, could you date?
会是什么样子——我是说，你能约会吗？
Well, I mean, in my community, you don't date unless you're actively looking to get married.
嗯，我的意思是，在我的社区，除非你积极寻求结婚，否则你不会约会。
And since I'm already married, that would pose a little bit of a problem.
由于我已经结婚了，这会带来一些问题。
I don't think I could find anyone who would be willing to date me under these circumstances where I say, hey, I'm looking to get married, but you might have to wait 2 or 3 or 4 or 10 or 20 years because there's this man who's refusing to give me the get.
我认为在这种情况下我找不到任何愿意和我约会的人，我说，嘿，我想结婚，但你可能需要等待 2、3、4、10 或 20 年，因为这个男人拒绝给我结婚的机会。
And he doesn't feel any urgency because he can get out of it whenever he wants.
而且他并不觉得有什么紧迫感，因为他想什么时候就可以摆脱它。
He can give me a get and be done with the whole thing within a day as soon as he decides he wants to.
只要他愿意，他就可以给我一个机会，并在一天之内完成整个事情。
So for him, it's just a waiting game where why not wait longer.
所以对他来说，这只是一场等待的游戏，为什么不再等待更长的时间。
If his demands were something that I could give, I would have given in a long time ago.
如果他的要求是我能给予的，我早就答应了。
Because this life is agony.
因为此生是痛苦的。
I mean, to wait and wait and never know and to be tied together like this, I would give anything I could to be finished with it.
我的意思是，等啊等，永远不知道，像这样绑在一起，我愿意付出一切来完成它。
Almost anything.
几乎任何东西。
She wouldn't resort to violence or hire a rabbi like Mendel Epstein, the rabbi who was arrested in Brooklyn.
她不会诉诸暴力，也不会雇用像在布鲁克林被捕的孟德尔·爱泼斯坦那样的拉比。
Now, most of Epstein's work was above board.
现在，爱泼斯坦的大部分工作都是光明正大的。
He'd advocate for women in rabbinic court, he'd serve as a go-between with the husband's family, that's how he made his living.
他会在拉比法庭上为女性辩护，他会充当与丈夫家人的中间人，这就是他的谋生方式。
But according to the FBI, Epstein took his work on behalf of women one step too far.
但根据联邦调查局的说法，爱泼斯坦在代表女性的工作上走得太远了。
Rabbi Epstein, I should mention, is currently out on bail.
我应该提一下，拉比·爱泼斯坦目前已被保释。
But neither he nor his lawyer responded to my request for an interview.
但他和他的律师都没有回应我的采访请求。
However, about a year ago, before he was arrested, I actually met him, interviewed him at his dining room table.
然而，大约一年前，在他被捕之前，我实际上见过他，在他的餐桌上采访了他。
I recorded it on my phone.
我把它记录在手机上。
The interview started off pretty uneventful.
采访一开始很平静。
So tell me what you do.
那么告诉我你是做什么的。
Explain to me what you do.
向我解释一下你是做什么的。
Well, on the simplest level, people come to ask if they should get divorced.
嗯，在最简单的层面上，人们来问他们是否应该离婚。
At some point, the interview kind of took a turn.
在某个时刻，采访出现了转折。
Epstein told me about this case from 1992, when he got a call from a chained wife named Jennifer Klein.
爱泼斯坦在 1992 年向我讲述了这起案件，当时他接到了一位名叫詹妮弗·克莱因 (Jennifer Klein) 的被锁住的妻子的电话。
She had a civil divorce but no get, and now her ex-husband had kidnapped their young son and fled to Peru.
她办理了民事离婚，但没有成功，现在她的前夫绑架了他们年幼的儿子并逃往秘鲁。
Epstein says he told her, call the FBI.
爱泼斯坦说他告诉她，给联邦调查局打电话。
She said she'd done that, but she'd also heard that Rabbi Epstein could do things that the FBI couldn't do.
她说她已经做到了，但她也听说拉比·爱泼斯坦可以做联邦调查局做不到的事情。
Epstein told me that the woman had already found a group of ex-CIA agents who were going to help find her husband and child.
爱泼斯坦告诉我，这名妇女已经找到了一群前中央情报局特工，他们将帮助寻找她的丈夫和孩子。
How'd she find them?
她是怎么找到他们的？
Mendel Epstein I don't know.
孟德尔·爱泼斯坦 我不知道。
You didn't find them.
你没有找到他们。
Mendel Epstein She found them.
孟德尔·爱泼斯坦 她找到了它们。
Nothing to do with us.
与我们无关。
She found them.
她找到了他们。
Epstein says she found them.
爱泼斯坦说她找到了它们。
Nothing to do with us.
与我们无关。
Epstein's daughter Batsheva, a lawyer, was sitting right next to him, so he was choosing his words carefully.
爱泼斯坦的女儿巴特舍娃是一名律师，就坐在他旁边，因此他在措辞上非常谨慎。
But not super carefully.
但不是超级仔细。
As he continued with his story, he, the wife, the former secret agent man, and a Jewish scribe are all bound for Peru.
当他继续讲述他的故事时，他、妻子、前特工和一名犹太抄写员都将前往秘鲁。
They find the husband, break into the house.
他们找到了丈夫，闯入了房子。
The kid's there.
孩子就在那里。
They save him.
他们救了他。
And then they head to the bathroom, where the hired muscle had found the husband.
然后他们去了卫生间，雇来的肌肉男在那里找到了丈夫。
The husband was already down on the floor, completely naked.
丈夫已经倒在地板上，全身赤裸。
Seems he was taking a shower with the Indian maid.
看来他正在和印度女佣一起洗澡。
We put him down.
我们把他放下了。
There were pictures of that.
有那张照片。
Mendel Epstein And then we had a conversation with him.
孟德尔·爱泼斯坦 然后我们和他进行了交谈。
He said the words he had to say, you please write-- he didn't say "please--" write and give a get to my wife.
他说了他必须说的话，请你写信——他没有说“请——”写信给我妻子。
And I agreed to it and [INAUDIBLE] the messages.
我同意了它并[听不清]这些消息。
He did everything he had to do.
他做了他必须做的一切。
So they also made--
所以他们还做了——
So how did the CIA men convince him to give the get?
那么中央情报局的人是如何说服他放弃的呢？
I don't know if we want to discuss that.
我不知道我们是否想讨论这个问题。
"I don't know if we want to want to discuss that," his daughter said.
“我不知道我们是否想讨论这个问题，”他的女儿说。
Let's just say it got a little physical.
我们只是说它有点物理性。
[LAUGHS] Gotcha.
[笑]明白了。
Mendel Epstein Now the CIA has this little pill.
孟德尔·爱泼斯坦 现在中央情报局有了这个小药丸。
Just to be clear, the guy was an ex-Delta Forces commando, not CIA, but whatever.
需要澄清的是，这个人是前三角洲部队突击队员，不是中央情报局，但无论如何。
The CIA has this little pill.
中央情报局有这个小药丸。
They put it in his mouth.
他们把它放进了他的嘴里。
In a second, out cold.
下一秒，就冷了。
So the guy weighed about 200 pounds.
所以这家伙重约200磅。
We lifted the guy up, and we put him in the bathtub, locked the door.
我们把那家伙举起来，把他放进浴缸里，锁上门。
I asked the guy in the CIA, how long is he going to sleep.
我问中央情报局的那个人，他要睡多久。
When will he wake up?
他什么时候会醒来？
So he said, Rabbi, we didn't do diagnostics here.
所以他说，拉比，我们没有在这里进行诊断。
You know, no one did a blood test like you do in the hospital.
你知道，没有人像你在医院那样进行验血。
First of all, if he wakes up.
首先，他是否醒了。
I said what do you-- whoa!
我说你做什么——哇！
Now if it is, if he wakes up.
现在如果是的话，如果他醒了。
The Houston Chronicle reported on this story in 1992 and ran a photo of the woman and her son, reunited and posing with the hired gun from the Delta Forces.
《休斯敦纪事报》于 1992 年报道了这个故事，并刊登了一张这名妇女和她儿子重聚并与三角洲部队雇佣的枪手合影的照片。
There are legends that this is exactly how these matters got settled back in the Eastern European villages.
有传说称，这正是这些问题在东欧村庄得到解决的方式。
You hired a thug from the czar's army, he gave the husband a little talking to, and suddenly you had your get.
你从沙皇的军队里雇了一个暴徒，他和你的丈夫聊了一会儿，然后你突然就得到了。
Similar legends had floated around Epstein.
爱泼斯坦周围也流传着类似的传说。
The violence that he's accused of doing now I would never have dreamed that that was what he engaged in.
他现在被指控犯下的暴力行为是我做梦也想不到的。
This is Rivka Haut.
这是里夫卡·豪特。
30 years ago, Rivka and a couple friends founded an organization to help free agunot.
30 年前，里夫卡和几个朋友成立了一个组织来帮助释放阿古诺。
And back then, they worked with Mendel Epstein.
当时，他们与孟德尔·爱泼斯坦合作。
She says, like everyone, she heard the rumors about some of his tactics.
她说，像每个人一样，她听到了有关他的一些策略的谣言。
But she never imagined anything like what he's accused of now.
但她从未想象过他现在被指控的事情。
I was very saddened because I knew Mendel many years.
我非常难过，因为我认识孟德尔很多年了。
And I still feel very sad about it.
我仍然对此感到非常难过。
I figured the most he does is grab men and kind of threaten them.
我认为他做的最多的事情就是抓住男人并威胁他们。
He's a big man.
他是个大人物。
You've seen him-- you know that he's physically a big man.
你见过他——你知道他是个大块头。
And I-- like a little fistfight or slapping around.
而我——喜欢打架或者打耳光。
That was my assumption.
这是我的假设。
Over the last few decades, as more Orthodox women decided it was OK to get divorced, Mendel Epstein got a reputation as the rabbi women could trust.
在过去的几十年里，随着越来越多的东正教女性决定离婚是可以的，孟德尔·爱泼斯坦获得了女性拉比可以信赖的声誉。
He was willing to take the women's side.
他愿意站在女性一边。
He even published a little handbook to guide women through the divorce process.
他甚至出版了一本小手册来指导女性完成离婚程序。
And Rivka says Epstein was her guy, too.
里夫卡说爱泼斯坦也是她的男人。
She and her fellow activists were all Orthodox, but they were pretty modern.
她和她的活动人士同僚都是东正教徒，但他们又相当现代。
They had TVs in their houses, some of them wore pants, so they needed someone like Epstein to help them establish trust with the ultra-Orthodox women who needed their help.
他们家里有电视，有些人还穿着裤子，所以他们需要像爱泼斯坦这样的人来帮助他们与需要帮助的极端正统女性建立信任。
Mendel Epstein that I knew way back when was a mentor to us.
我很久以前就认识孟德尔·爱泼斯坦，他是我们的导师。
He taught us a lot about agunot, and he was a great help to agunot.
他教给我们很多关于阿古诺的知识，他对阿古诺的帮助很大。
He tried to do the right thing.
他试图做正确的事。
And he was out to get justice for women.
他致力于为女性伸张正义。
And he did.
他做到了。
He helped many, many women.
他帮助了很多很多的女性。
Then at some point, she can't remember if it was 10 years or 20 years ago, there was an incident, and her opinion of Epstein changed.
然后在某个时候，她记不清是10年前还是20年前，发生了一件事，她对爱泼斯坦的看法发生了变化。
The way it worked for me, we were working on a particular case.
它对我来说是有效的，我们正在处理一个特定的案例。
And he called me the night before, and he started saying very bad things about this woman, who was a wonderful woman, and I was shocked.
前一天晚上他打电话给我，他开始说这个女人的坏话，她是一个很棒的女人，我很震惊。
And I said, what are you talking about?
我说，你在说什么？
We're going out tomorrow.
明天我们要出去。
We're demonstrating on her behalf.
我们正在为她示威。
He said, no, you're not, because you don't have a seruv.
他说，不，你不是，因为你没有服务。
And I said, we have a seruv.
我说，我们有服务。
I'm holding it in my hand.
我把它握在手里。
It's a rabbinic court document.
这是一份拉比法庭文件。
He said, no, I got them to rescind it.
他说，不，我让他们撤销它。
I had them rescind it, and you can't go out.
我让他们取消了，你不能出去。
You don't have a seruv.
你没有服务。
Why had he had it rescinded?
为什么他要撤销它？
Rivka Haut Because he went to work for her husband.
Rivka Haut 因为他去为她丈夫工作。
Oh.
哦。
Rivka Haut You know, if an attorney would do that, they'd get disbarred.
Rivka Haut 你知道，如果律师这样做，他们就会被取消律师资格。
But these rules don't apply, so he stopped working for her.
但这些规则并不适用，所以他不再为她工作。
I guess.
我猜。
I guess.
我猜。
And that was a different face of him.
那是他的另一张面孔。
And at that point, we had to tell women don't go.
那时，我们不得不告诉女性不要去。
Don't ask him for help and don't go to him.
不要向他寻求帮助，也不要去找他。
A colleague of Rivka's remembered this, too.
里夫卡的一位同事也记得这一点。
Again, Epstein and his attorney declined to talk to me about any of this.
爱泼斯坦和他的律师再次拒绝与我谈论此事。
Right now, a lot of Orthodox Jews are pretty embarrassed by these husbands who won't free their wives.
现在，许多东正教犹太人对这些不释放妻子的丈夫感到非常尴尬。
It's cruel, and they know it looks very bad to the outside world.
这很残酷，而且他们知道这在外界看来非常糟糕。
A couple of solutions have been floated.
已经提出了几种解决方案。
One would be to grant women annulments, like in the Catholic Church.
其中之一是像天主教会那样，给予女性废除婚姻的权利。
One well-known agunah in the Orthodox world, Tamar Epstein, recently announced that she considers herself free of her marriage, and everyone assumes it's because she found a rabbi to annul it.
东正教世界一位著名的阿古纳塔玛·爱泼斯坦 (Tamar Epstein) 最近宣布，她认为自己摆脱了婚姻，每个人都认为这是因为她找到了一位拉比来废除婚姻。
But this idea is controversial.
但这个想法是有争议的。
It hasn't caught on, not yet.
它还没有流行起来，还没有。
So for now, if you're an agunah like Gital Dodelson, a desperate woman trapped in this limbo, paying some rabbi to intervene almost makes sense.
所以现在，如果你是像吉塔·多德尔森这样的阿古纳，一个陷入困境的绝望女人，那么花钱请一些拉比来干预几乎是有道理的。
You know what?
你知道吗？
The numbers that I've heard, my husband is demanding a lot more than that for the get.
从我听到的数字来看，我丈夫的要求远不止于此。
So you're telling me I'd pay a third party a small amount of money and he'll get rid of the problem for me instead of having to fight it out with my husband and give him much, much, much more?
所以你是说我付给第三方一小笔钱，他就会帮我解决这个问题，而不是和我丈夫吵架，然后给他更多、更多、更多？
If you take out the fact that he's beating people up, that sounds like a pretty good deal.
如果你除去他殴打别人的事实，这听起来很划算。
[LAUGHS] Not that she'd ever hire someone to beat up her ex.
[笑]并不是说她会雇人殴打她的前任。
She's not willing to go that far.
她不愿意走那么远。
But as it happens, there's an old Jewish teaching that recalcitrant husbands should be beaten, and it wasn't some schmuck from Brooklyn who said so.
但碰巧的是，犹太教有一条古老的教义，那就是不听话的丈夫应该被殴打，而且这并不是布鲁克林的某个笨蛋说的。
It was Maimonides, the 12th century Spanish rabbi considered the greatest Jewish sage of all time.
他就是迈蒙尼德，12 世纪的西班牙拉比，被认为是有史以来最伟大的犹太圣人。
Maimonides wrote that a man could be beaten until he gave his wife a get.
迈蒙尼德写道，一个男人可能会被殴打，除非他给了他的妻子一个机会。
Here was his reasoning.
这是他的推理。
"Deep down," he said, "all of us are torn between our good inclinations and our evil inclinations.
“在内心深处，”他说，“我们所有人都在善意和恶意之间左右为难。
And being beaten might be just what a man needs to drive out his evil side so that he can see the wisdom of releasing his wife." Maimonides doesn't say anything about karate chops and cattle prods, but the principle's the same.
而被殴打也许正是一个男人所需要的，以驱逐他邪恶的一面，这样他才能看到释放妻子的智慧。”迈蒙尼德没有提及空手道排骨和牛棒，但原理是相同的。
Mark Oppenheimer.
马克·奥本海默。
He writes the Beliefs column for the New York Times , and he's working on a book about chained wives.
他为《纽约时报》撰写信仰专栏，并且正在写一本关于被束缚的妻子的书。
Act Three, They Love a Man in a Uniform.
第三幕，他们爱一个穿制服的男人。
So Egypt is an entire country that is technically now in the middle.
因此，从技术上讲，埃及是一个处于中间位置的整个国家。
They are in the transitional phase between what they were and whatever it is that they're about to become.
他们正处于过去的状态和即将成为的状态之间的过渡阶段。
Three years ago, during the Arab Spring revolutions, hundreds of thousands of Egyptians took to the streets to protest nearly 30 years of Hosni Mubarak's authoritarian rule.
三年前，阿拉伯之春革命期间，数十万埃及人走上街头，抗议胡斯尼·穆巴拉克近30年的独裁统治。
There were three weeks of this, then the Egyptian army ousted Mubarak.
这样的情况持续了三个星期，然后埃及军队驱逐了穆巴拉克。
Next came democratic elections.
接下来是民主选举。
They elected the Muslim Brotherhood's candidate, Mohammed Morsi.
他们选举了穆斯林兄弟会的候选人穆罕默德·穆尔西。
Soon enough, you may remember, he tried to seize dictatorial powers for himself, passed something that said the judiciary could not question his decisions.
你可能还记得，很快，他试图为自己夺取独裁权力，并通过了一项规定，司法机构不能质疑他的决定。
So then, this past July, another round of massive demonstrations.
于是，今年七月又发生了一轮大规模示威活动。
The military again intervened and threw out Morsi.
军方再次介入并驱逐了穆尔西。
Which means the army's in charge at the moment.
这意味着目前由军队负责。
Yes, there is an interim president, but he has as much presence and power as a polystyrene cup.
是的，有一位临时总统，但他的存在和权力就像聚苯乙烯杯子一样。
It's the defense minister and head of the armed forces, General Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, who's generally regarded as running things for now, until a new constitution and a new round of elections.
人们普遍认为，在新宪法和新一轮选举之前，目前由国防部长兼武装部队司令阿卜杜勒·法塔赫·塞西将军负责。
A referendum on an amended constitution was held this week.
本周就修改后的宪法举行了全民投票。
Official Egyptian news agencies say it passed with 95% voting yes.
埃及官方通讯社称，该法案以 95% 的赞成票获得通过。
Sarah Carr is a reporter and a blogger living in Cairo.
莎拉·卡尔是一位住在开罗的记者和博主。
Her mother is Egyptian.
她的母亲是埃及人。
Her dad is British.
她的父亲是英国人。
She grew up between Egypt and the UK, moved to Egypt to live over 10 years ago.
她在埃及和英国之间长大，十多年前搬到埃及生活。
She reports for an English language independent news site in Egypt, and her blog, Inanities.org, is regularly cited as one of the best blogs and English language news sources coming out of the country.
她为埃及一家英语独立新闻网站进行报道，她的博客 Inanities.org 经常被认为是该国最好的博客和英语新闻来源之一。
We asked her to write what it means to live in a country that is caught in the middle.
我们请她写下生活在一个夹在中间的国家意味着什么。
Here she is.
她在这里。
I've never in my life used as much caps locks as I did over the summer on Facebook as the country teeters on the political brink and Egyptians did battle in hysterical statuses and enraged comments.
我一生中从来没有像夏天在 Facebook 上使用过那么多大写锁，因为这个国家在政治边缘摇摇欲坠，埃及人在歇斯底里的状态和愤怒的评论中进行斗争。
This battle reached its height after June 30, when Egyptians took to the streets, demanding the removal of President Mohammed Morsi.
6月30日之后，这场战斗达到了白热化，当时埃及人走上街头，要求总统穆罕默德·穆尔西下台。
Later, after Morsi's removal, triumphant smoke-spewing army jets drew hearts in the sky.
后来，穆尔西下台后，军用喷气式飞机在天空中喷出浓烟，引得人们心潮澎湃。
A friend remarked that the hearts resembled a pair of buttocks, which they did.
一位朋友说这些心形像一对臀部，他们确实这么做了。
I spent much of the time after Morsi's removal on July 3 insisting that while I don't think that Morsi and his Muslim Brotherhood members should be hung, drawn, and quartered in public squares, that does not make me a spy, or a traitor, or a secret member of the group.
7 月 3 日穆尔西被免职后，我花了很多时间坚持认为，虽然我不认为穆尔西和他的穆斯林兄弟会成员应该在公共广场被绞死、拖拽和分尸，但这并不意味着我是该组织的间谍、叛徒或秘密成员。
This proved a controversial position as Egypt succumbed to the crude "it's us or them" logic beloved of general publics everywhere at times of great stress.
事实证明，这是一个有争议的立场，因为埃及屈服于粗暴的“要么是我们，要么是他们”的逻辑，而这种逻辑在压力巨大的时候深受各地公众的喜爱。
One relative suggested that having grown up abroad, I could not possibly understand the complexities of the situation.
一位亲戚表示，我在国外长大，不可能理解情况的复杂性。
Another sent me messages containing links to lunatic websites establishing incontrovertibly that Barack Obama is a secret member of the Muslim Brotherhood and that Morsi's tenure was a US-Zionist plot against Egypt.
另一个人给我发来的信息中包含一些疯狂网站的链接，无可争议地证明巴拉克·奥巴马是穆斯林兄弟会的秘密成员，而穆尔西的任期是美国犹太复国主义针对埃及的阴谋。
An Egyptian Christian friend has it even worse and spends hours and days and months telling his Facebook friends that while he's not a member of the Muslim Brotherhood, he does not agree that Brotherhood members are animals.
一位埃及基督徒朋友的情况更糟，他花了几个小时、几天、几个月告诉他的 Facebook 朋友，虽然他不是穆斯林兄弟会的成员，但他不同意兄弟会成员是动物。
And yes, he does think that everyone, including them, deserves a fair trial.
是的，他确实认为每个人，包括他们，都应该受到公平的审判。
Transitions are supposed to be about moving forwards, but Egypt's has been a manic loop de loop of hope and disillusionment, of beginnings that start with an ending, and never really moved beyond that point.
过渡本应是向前迈进，但埃及的过渡一直是希望与幻灭的疯狂循环，从开始到结束，从未真正超越这一点。
We went from Hosni Mubarak's 30-year tenure to 17 long months of army rule.
我们从胡斯尼·穆巴拉克 (Hosni Mubarak) 的 30 年任期过渡到长达 17 个月的军队统治。
Then there was Morsi's brief one-year presidency, and now Egypt is back under military rule.
然后是穆尔西短暂的一年总统任期，现在埃及又回到了军事统治之下。
The whole process is beginning again.
整个过程又重新开始。
After Morsi was removed from office, the army and the media went on a campaign to convince Egyptians that we're facing a threat that could destroy the country.
穆尔西被免职后，军队和媒体开展了一场运动，让埃及人相信我们面临着可能摧毁国家的威胁。
There were insurgents fighting in the Sinai, but that's been going on since 2011.
西奈半岛曾有叛乱分子在战斗，但这种情况自 2011 年以来一直在持续。
There was an occasional bombing, and there were continuing clashes with Muslim Brotherhood supporters who refused to leave two massive sit-ins in Cairo.
偶尔会发生爆炸事件，与穆斯林兄弟会支持者的冲突持续不断，他们拒绝离开开罗的两次大规模静坐。
Television presenters soon conflated all these things.
电视主持人很快就把所有这些事情混为一谈。
They stopped calling supporters of the Muslim Brotherhood disease-ridden lunatics and started calling them terrorists.
他们不再称穆斯林兄弟会的支持者为疾病缠身的疯子，而是开始称他们为恐怖分子。
The government blamed the Brotherhood for a bombing in the town of Mansoura that killed 16 people, then officially declared them a terrorist organization and promised jail sentences for all its members.
政府指责穆兄会制造了曼苏拉镇发生的爆炸事件，造成 16 人死亡，随后正式宣布穆兄会为恐怖组织，并承诺对所有成员判处监禁。
This despite the fact that the Brotherhood publicly condemned the bombing.
尽管兄弟会公开谴责了这次爆炸事件。
The war, if that's what it is, has finally caught up with the propaganda against it, and today you can't turn on the TV without seeing ladies in red, white, and black warbling declarations of undying love for the armed forces against a hodgepodge of library shots of military exercises and enormous rockets being launched in an unknown direction, possibly towards the Al Jazeera headquarters.
战争，如果真是这样的话，终于赶上了反对它的宣传，今天你一打开电视，就会看到身着红、白、黑衣服的女士们在库中大杂烩的军事演习照片和向未知方向发射的巨大火箭（可能是朝半岛电视台总部发射）中，叽叽喳喳地宣示着对武装部队的永恒热爱。
Al Jazeera is viewed as a Brotherhood mouthpiece and is currently enemy number one in Egypt.
半岛电视台被视为兄弟会的喉舌，目前是埃及的头号敌人。
In the most recent expression of this, four Al Jazeera English journalists were arrested at the end of December on charges of spreading lies harmful to state security and joining a terrorist organization.
最近的一次表述是，四名半岛电视台英文记者于 12 月底被捕，罪名是散布危害国家安全的谎言和加入恐怖组织。
The journalists had been interviewing members of the Muslim Brotherhood in a swanky Cairo hotel.
记者们正在开罗一家豪华酒店采访穆斯林兄弟会的成员。
The police, once reviled as corrupt, vicious thugs, have made a dazzling comeback of the Robert Downey, Jr. variety, despite the fact that absolutely nothing has changed with an institution that is crawling with corruption and abuse.
曾经被谩骂为腐败、恶毒的暴徒的警察如今以小罗伯特·唐尼的风格令人眼花缭乱地卷土重来，尽管事实上这个充满腐败和滥用职权的机构根本没有任何改变。
They're back to kidnapping activists for hours and dumping them in the desert, assaulting and torturing detainees, and essentially acting as a military regime's heavies.
他们又开始绑架活动人士几个小时，然后将他们扔到沙漠里，袭击和折磨被拘留者，实质上充当了军政权的重量级人物。
In August, their men killed hundreds of people during a dispersal of the Rabaa al-Adawiya Muslim Brotherhood protest.
八月，他们的手下在驱散拉巴·阿达维亚穆斯林兄弟会的抗议活动中杀害了数百人。
And a few weeks later, the authorities erected a statue in tribute to the police, the armed forces, and the people on the site of the deaths.
几周后，当局竖立了一座雕像，向警察、武装部队和死者现场的人民致敬。
If there was any public protest it was inaudible, what with the din of the party poppers, and people cheering, and the sound of army tribute pop song "God Bless the Hands."
即使有任何公众抗议，也听不见，因为派对上的喧闹声、人们的欢呼声，以及军队致敬流行歌曲“上帝保佑双手”的声音。
That song is now a wedding party favorite.
这首歌现在是婚礼派对上的最爱。
This cheerleading on of a massive crackdown demonstrates a real and genuine public appetite for authoritarian measures.
这种对大规模镇压的欢呼表明公众对独裁措施的真正兴趣。
And it's understandable to an extent.
这在某种程度上是可以理解的。
There is a general perception that under the Brotherhood, the country was about to sink into the abyss and that the army intervention dragged it back from the edge.
人们普遍认为，兄弟会统治下的国家即将陷入深渊，而军队的干预将其从边缘拉了回来。
A new process law now makes it illegal for 10 or more people to hold a demonstration without obtaining prior police permission.
现在，一项新的程序法规定，在未事先获得警方许可的情况下，10 人或以上举行示威活动属于违法行为。
In effect, the crackdown is undoing the revolution.
实际上，镇压正在破坏革命。
Many Egyptians are thrilled.
许多埃及人都兴奋不已。
But the media has played an instrumental part in whipping up the hysteria about the Brotherhood, stoking fear with endless unsubstantiated rumors about shady foreign elements seeking Egypt's destruction, of youth activists being American agents, and Brotherhood members taking orders from Qatar.
但媒体在煽动人们对穆兄会的歇斯底里方面发挥了重要作用，通过无休无止的未经证实的谣言煽动恐惧，这些谣言涉及外国阴暗分子寻求毁灭埃及、青年活动人士是美国特工以及穆兄会成员听从卡塔尔的命令。
This has got a bit out of hand.
这已经有点失控了。
And 2014 began with the news that the public prosecutor is opening an investigation into whether a television advert for mobile phone giant Vodafone featuring a popular glove puppet carries secret coded Brotherhood messages.
2014 年伊始，就有消息称，检察官正在对手机巨头沃达丰的一则以受欢迎的手套木偶为特色的电视广告是否带有秘密编码的兄弟会信息展开调查。
General Sisi, the head of the army, at the moment can do no wrong, and his relationship with Egyptians can only be described as a lovefest.
塞西将军作为军队的首脑，此刻是不会做错的，他与埃及人的关系只能用恩爱来形容。
A few days ago, he gave a tantalizing hint to his fans that he might consider running for president, saying, when Egyptians say something, we obey.
几天前，他向粉丝发出诱人的暗示，称他可能会考虑竞选总统，并表示，当埃及人说什么时，我们就服从。
And I will never turn my back on Egypt.
我永远不会背弃埃及。
Last month, a voice recording, allegedly an interview with Sisi, was leaked.
上个月，一份据称是对塞西的采访的录音被泄露。
In it, Sisi was asked about whether he has presidential ambitions, and he responded by talking about dreams he has had involving Omega watches, and a sword with "there is no god but God" written on it, and assassinated president Anwar Sadat talking to him.
在其中，塞西被问到是否有当总统的野心，他回答道，自己曾梦想过欧米茄手表、一把写有“除了上帝，别无他物”的剑，以及与他交谈的刺杀总统安瓦尔·萨达特。
It was all very weird and alarming but made no perceptible dent in his popularity.
这一切都非常奇怪和令人震惊，但并没有明显影响他的受欢迎程度。
Meanwhile, the loop de loop loops again.
与此同时，循环再次循环。
Just this past week, Egyptians voted in a referendum on a constitution for the third time in three years.
就在上周，埃及人三年来第三次就宪法进行了全民公投。
January 25, Tahrir Square, and the revolution and its possibilities are a distant memory now, locked up in prisons and lying flat and lifeless on downtown Cairo's walls in faded, dying graffiti.
1 月 25 日，解放广场、这场革命及其可能性现在已成为遥远的记忆，人们被关在监狱里，平躺在开罗市中心的墙上，上面画着褪色、垂死的涂鸦。
I remember on January 29, 2011, we wandered, stunned, through the streets of downtown Cairo amongst the still smoldering remains of police cars and young men writing graffiti declaring the end of Mubarak.
我记得2011年1月29日，我们震惊地漫步在开罗市中心的街道上，周围是仍在冒烟的警车残骸和写着涂鸦宣告穆巴拉克终结的年轻人。
For a very brief moment, the streets along the fiefdom of the Interior Ministry and its expansive network of police informants were ours.
在很短的时间内，内政部领地沿线的街道及其庞大的警察线人网络都是我们的。
Then this past November, I was at a demonstration that was broken up by the police.
去年十一月，我参加了一场被警察驱散的示威活动。
The police used a primitive sort of water cannon, a large hose, really, to douse protesters before going at them with truncheons.
警察使用一种原始的水枪，实际上是一根大软管，来浇灭抗议者，然后用警棍攻击他们。
In less than 10 minutes, it was all over, and there was nothing left.
不到10分钟，一切就结束了，什么都没有了。
And if it wasn't for the water on the ground, you would have never guessed anything had happened.
如果不是地上有水，你绝对猜不到会发生什么。
Sarah Carr in Cairo.
莎拉·卡尔在开罗。
She writes about Egypt on her blog, Inanities.org.
她在她的博客 Inanities.org 上撰写有关埃及的文章。
Our program was produced today by Jonathan Menjivar, with Alex Blumberg, Ben Calhoun, Sarah Koenig, Miki Meek, Brian Reed, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
我们今天的节目由 Jonathan Menjivar 与 Alex Blumberg、Ben Calhoun、Sarah Koenig、Miki Meek、Brian Reed、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 共同制作。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Production help from Dana Chivvis and Allison Davis.
达纳·奇夫维斯 (Dana Chivvis) 和艾莉森·戴维斯 (Allison Davis) 为制作提供帮助。
Our story about Rachel and her vegetarian son was co-produced with Jyllian Gunther.
我们关于雷切尔和她素食儿子的故事是与吉利安·冈瑟 (Jyllian Gunther) 联合制作的。
Seth Lind is our operations director.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的运营总监。
Emily Condon's our production manager.
艾米丽·康登是我们的生产经理。
Elise Bergerson's our administrative assistant.
埃莉斯·伯格森是我们的行政助理。
Adrianne Mathiowetz runs our website.
阿德琳娜·马修韦茨 (Adrianne Mathiowetz) 负责运营我们的网站。
Research help from Michelle Harris and Julie Beer.
米歇尔·哈里斯和朱莉·比尔的研究帮助。
Music help from Damien Graef and Rob Geddis.
Damien Graef 和 Rob Geddis 提供音乐帮助。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
Thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia。
You know, I was just thinking about this the other day, how young he and I both were.
你知道，前几天我就在想，他和我都多么年轻。
We were so young when we made the deal to start the radio show, and we had that woman lawyer helping us, and we were both so strong-headed.
当我们达成协议开始广播节目时，我们还很年轻，有那位女律师帮助我们，我们都很坚强。
I have a recording.
我有录音。
Fine.
美好的。
It starts on Saturday.
从星期六开始。
Rachel All right, good.
雷切尔 好吧，很好。
But can you guys shake on it?
但你们能动摇吗？
I think this is--
我认为这是——
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life .
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
[MUSIC - "STUCK" BY MIDDLE CLASS FASHION]
[音乐 - 被中产阶级时尚“困住”]
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。