515: Good Guys - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #515 | January 10, 2014 515: Good Guys Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 515 集 | 2014 年 1 月 10 日 515：好人注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass OK, here's what intrigued Ben.
序言 艾拉·格拉斯 好吧，这就是本感兴趣的地方。
His friend Sonari told him that he'd come up with this thing.
他的朋友索纳里告诉他，他想出了这个东西。
And there's no way to say this without sounding like an infomercial.
说这句话听起来就像是电视广告。
But Sonari was doing this thing that was saving him lots of money.
但索纳里所做的这件事为他节省了很多钱。
And Sonari is exactly the kind of person who would know about this kind of thing.
而索纳里正是那种会知道这种事情的人。
He's a business reporter.
他是一名商业记者。
He's one of our colleagues at NPR news.
他是我们在 NPR 新闻部的同事之一。
Anyway, here's Ben.
无论如何，这是本。
He told me he was just saving on everything.
他告诉我他只是在节省一切。
He used it for shoes, for clothes, big stuff like new tires.
他用它来制作鞋子、衣服、新轮胎等大东西。
Ben, by the way, is This America Life producer Ben Calhoun.
顺便说一句，本是《美国生活》的制片人本·卡尔霍恩。
He and Sonari are buddies.
他和索纳里是好友。
And Ben says that Sonari came up with this new financial strategy one day when Sonari was shopping for shoes.
本说，索纳里有一天在购买鞋子时想出了这一新的财务策略。
And he realized that all the shoes that he wanted were the super-expensive shoes.
他意识到他想要的都是超级昂贵的鞋子。
Oh.
哦。
Ben Calhoun Yeah, yeah.
本·卡尔霍恩 是的，是的。
And he keeps coming back to this pair that's way too expensive.
他不断地回到这双太贵的鞋子上。
And he stays there for hours stressing about this decision.
他在那里呆了几个小时，对这个决定感到压力。
Until finally, he caved.
直到最后，他屈服了。
So he's like, I'm just going to do it.
所以他说，我就这么做。
I'm going to do it.
我会去做的。
I'm going to do it.
我会去做的。
So he got up to the counter.
于是他起身来到柜台前。
And this is what he says happened.
这就是他所说的发生的事情。
I remembered this thing a guy that I had interviewed had talked about about the good guy discount.
我记得我采访过的一个人谈到了好人折扣。
The good guy discount?
好人折扣？
Ben Calhoun The good guy discount.
本·卡尔霍恩《好人》折扣。
This is the thing.
就是这样。
Sonari, he'd interviewed this negotiations expert from Columbia University Business School.
索纳里，他采访了这位来自哥伦比亚大学商学院的谈判专家。
And the guy told him about this technique where you say, can I get a good guy discount on that?
那个人告诉了他这个技巧，你说，我可以得到一个好人折扣吗？
You're a good guy, I'm a good guy-- come on, just, you know, a good guy discount.
你是个好人，我也是个好人——来吧，只是，你知道，好人折扣。
Wow.
哇。
Ben Calhoun So Sonari remembered this when he was about to buy these shoes.
Ben Calhoun So Sonari 在准备购买这双鞋时想起了这一点。
And honestly, he didn't think it was going to work.
老实说，他认为这不会起作用。
And I go, hey, is there a good guy discount?
我就问，嘿，好人有折扣吗？
And he goes, what?
他走了，什么？
You've seen me here all day.
你已经在这里看到我一整天了。
You know I want these shoes.
你知道我想要这双鞋。
It's tough for me, blah, blah, blah.
对我来说太难了，哈哈哈哈哈哈
And he looks at me, and he goes, I'll tell you what, brother.
他看着我，然后说道，我来告诉你吧，兄弟。
And he swiped the card.
然后他就刷了卡。
Yeah.
是的。
And he goes, I'll give you 25% off.
他说，我给你 25% 的折扣。
It was the most positive reinforcement you could ever get.
这是你能得到的最积极的强化。
I was so happy.
我很高兴。
So Sonari told Ben all this, because Sonari had started doing this all the time, asking for the good guy discount.
所以索纳里把这一切都告诉了本，因为索纳里一直开始这样做，要求好人折扣。
And he thought that Ben should try it too.
他认为本也应该尝试一下。
And Ben suggested this might be a good radio story for our show.
本建议这对于我们的节目来说可能是一个很好的广播故事。
And all of us here at the radio show, we all said great.
我们所有人都在广播节目中，我们都说太棒了。
And we all told him, of course, as part of the story, you're going to have to go out and try to get the discount yourself.
当然，我们都告诉他，作为故事的一部分，你必须自己出去尝试获得折扣。
And Ben turned red and started to squirm.
本的脸涨得通红，开始蠕动。
But he said, sure.
但他说，当然。
And we put it onto our story list.
我们把它列入我们的故事清单。
This was last February.
这是去年二月的事。
11 months have gone by.
11个月过去了。
And now and then, one of us would remember this at a story meeting and say, whatever to happened to that good guy discount thing?
有时，我们中的一个人会在故事会议上想起这一点，并说，那个好人打折的事情到底发生了什么？
And Ben would get all embarrassed.
本会感到很尴尬。
And it was clear he was just hating the idea that he was going to actually have to go out in the world and do this thing.
很明显，他只是讨厌这样的想法：他实际上必须走出去，做这件事。
He could not bring himself to.
他无法让自己清醒过来。
I just could not get over the pitch itself.
我就是无法克服球场本身。
It's so cheesy.
太俗气了。
To say, like, I'm a good guy, you're a good guy.
比如说，我是一个好人，你也是一个好人。
Yeah.
是的。
I think it's kind of smarmy.
我觉得这有点狡猾。
I love Sonari.
我爱索纳里。
I love Sonari.
我爱索纳里。
I think that Sonari is a wonderful person.
我认为索纳里是一个很棒的人。
But it traffics in this term of good guy when it's nonsense.
但当它是胡说八道时，它就会以“好人”这个词来传播。
It's me saying, I'm a good guy, which I feel like it's the kind of thing of saying, I'm so humble.
我是在说，我是个好人，我觉得这就是在说，我很谦虚。
The second part of it is, you're saying, and the thing I'm going to do as a good guy is I'm going to ask you to do me a favor and cost yourself money.
你说，第二部分是，作为一个好人，我要做的就是请你帮我一个忙，并让你自己花钱。
That's what a good guy I am.
这就是我是一个好人。
And I don't know.
我不知道。
I find it to be not the behavior of a good guy.
我觉得这不是一个好人的行为。
A good guy, Ben said, would not make somebody else uncomfortable on purpose.
本说，一个好人不会故意让别人感到不舒服。
And he was convinced that asking for a good guy discount, it puts the sales person on the spot.
他确信，要求好人折扣可以让销售人员处于困境。
You're asking them to break the rules for you for absolutely no reason.
你毫无理由地要求他们为你违反规则。
And I hate making other people feel uncomfortable.
我讨厌让别人感到不舒服。
I have a different take on it than you do.
我对此的看法与你不同。
I think it shows moxie.
我认为这显示了勇气。
And the good guy discount is part of what makes this country great, even if Sonari is the only one who's doing it, that impulse of just-- I'm just going to go for it.
好人折扣是让这个国家变得伟大的一部分，即使索纳里是唯一一个这样做的人，那种冲动——我只是要去追求它。
I'm going to say something that's ridiculous and corny and just see if it works.
我要说一些可笑又老套的话，看看它是否有效。
I mean, in the movies, that's what gets the girl.
我的意思是，在电影中，这就是吸引女孩的原因。
In the movies, that's what makes you a hero.
在电影中，这就是让你成为英雄的原因。
If I were to try this three times, how many times do you think it would work?
如果我尝试三次，你认为多少次会有效？
One.
一。
Ben Calhoun So here's one question before I go in.
本·卡尔霍恩：在我进入之前，有一个问题。
Is it important that I do the whole, I'm a good guy, you're a good guy?
我做全部，我是一个好人，你也是一个好人，这重要吗？
You've got to say something.
你必须说点什么。
What else are you going to say?
你还想说什么？
Well, today on our radio program-- good guys.
好吧，今天我们的广播节目——好家伙。
We have four stories, including I go with Ben as he tries to find out whether or not he has what it takes to get free stuff by claiming to be a good guy, even though he worries that doing that, trying the entire exercise, means that he is not a good guy at all.
我们有四个故事，包括我和本一起去，因为他试图找出他是否有能力通过声称自己是一个好人来获得免费的东西，尽管他担心这样做，尝试整个练习，意味着他根本不是一个好人。
Because, friends, it is a struggle sometimes to know what a good guy would and would not do.
因为，朋友们，有时很难知道一个好人会做什么、不会做什么。
And in each of our stories today, we have guys trying to find that line, trying to stay on one side of the line, trying to stay good guys in a world where we all know that can be very, very difficult.
在我们今天的每个故事中，我们都有人试图找到那条线，试图留在这条线的一边，试图在一个我们都知道这可能非常非常困难的世界中保持好人。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life , distributed by Public Radio International.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Takes One to Know One.
第一幕，以人相知。
So after 11 months of stalling, Ben finally headed out to get himself the good guy discount wearing a microphone hidden underneath his shirt.
因此，在拖延了 11 个月之后，本最终将麦克风藏在衬衫下面，出去享受好人折扣。
I went with him.
我和他一起去了。
First place we go, a baby store.
我们去的第一个地方，是一家母婴店。
It's a big national chain.
这是一家全国性的大型连锁企业。
I've bought stuff at this particular store before.
我以前在这家商店买过东西。
And for a test, I chose one of these baby items that's mind-blowingly expensive, so much so that it's hard to imagine anyone actually buying it.
为了进行测试，我选择了其中一种婴儿用品，其价格令人难以置信，以至于很难想象有人会真正购买它。
It's a blanket for a stroller.
这是婴儿车的毯子。
It cost $190.
花了 190 美元。
My thought in doing this is that the markup is probably so insane that it'd make it easier to give a discount.
我这样做的想法是，加价可能太疯狂了，以至于更容易给予折扣。
Anyway, so I grab one, and I get in line.
无论如何，所以我拿了一个，然后排队。
Now I feel nervous.
现在我感到紧张。
The whole pitch still makes me queasy.
整个球场仍然让我感到恶心。
But I'm committed to selling it as best I can.
但我致力于尽我所能出售它。
There's one cashier working.
有一名收银员在工作。
Hey, how are you doing today?
嘿，你今天过得怎么样？
Cashier 1 I'm good.
收银员 1 我很好。
$206.85.
206.85 美元。
Ben Calhoun Is there any way I could get, like, a good guy discount on that?
本·卡尔霍恩（Ben Calhoun） 我有什么办法可以得到好人折扣吗？
Good guy discount?
好人折扣？
I don't think we don't do those.
我不认为我们不这样做。
[LAUGHING] It's hard to hear.
[笑]很难听清。
But when I ask for the discount, she cracks a smile and kind of laughs and says, good guy discount?
但当我要求折扣时，她笑了，笑着说，好人折扣？
We don't do those.
我们不做那些。
Are there any promotions coming up, or is this going to go on sale anytime soon or anything?
是否有任何促销活动即将到来，或者是否会很快开始销售或其他什么？
No, nothing?
没有，什么也没有？
I leave the thing on the counter.
我把东西留在柜台上。
So first attempt-- we're 0 for 1.
所以第一次尝试——我们以 0 换 1。
Ira felt like I should have tried harder, and for the next one, I should keep the thing going longer, lean harder on the shtick-- I'm a good guy, you're a good guy, what do you say?
艾拉觉得我应该更加努力，对于下一个，我应该让事情持续更长的时间，更加努力地坚持下去——我是一个好人，你也是一个好人，你怎么说？
I am not so sure.
我不太确定。
So next stop.
那么下一站。
Yeah, I guess I'll try the nine first.
是的，我想我会先尝试九个。
Do they run a little big?
他们跑得有点大吗？
This item-- winter boots.
这个单品——冬靴。
We go to a big, big sporting goods store, though not a chain just in case some strict corporate policy had been the problem at the baby store.
我们去了一家很大很大的体育用品商店，虽然不是连锁店，以防婴儿商店出现一些严格的公司政策问题。
At the registers, I get called up.
在收银台，我被叫到了。
There's a woman, maybe late 20s.
有一个女人，大概20多岁。
She's got a lot of makeup.
她化了很多妆。
She looks fed up with something.
她看起来厌倦了某件事。
My thought is, I'll smile a little more, be a little more friendly.
我的想法是，我会多微笑一点，更加友善一点。
I know this is going to sound silly.
我知道这听起来很愚蠢。
Is there any kind of good guy discount I can get on those?
我可以在这些产品上获得任何好人折扣吗？
No, we don't offer-- it's just whatever the vendor sells it for.
不，我们不提供——这只是供应商出售的价格。
So there's no promotions that I'm missing out on or--
所以我不会错过任何促销活动，或者——
No. Ben Calhoun 0 for 2.
本·卡尔霍恩 0 换 2。
She sends me on my way.
她送我上路。
Here you go.
干得好。
Have a good one.
祝你过得愉快。
Ben Calhoun Have a good one.
本·卡尔霍恩祝你玩得开心。
It's like, have a nice day, with all the friendly burned off.
就像，祝你有美好的一天，所有的友好都被烧毁了。
So Ira and I head outside.
于是我和艾拉就出去了。
You didn't push it very far.
你没有把它推得太远。
You still just kept it to one sentence before you caved.
你还是只说了一句话就屈服了。
No, but I came back with the-- so there's not any sales or promotions that I'm missing out on?
不，但我回来时带着——所以我没有错过任何促销或促销活动？
That's different than selling her the good guy discount.
这与以好人折扣卖给她不同。
You mean being like, come on, I'm a good guy.
你的意思是说，拜托，我是个好人。
Uh huh.
嗯嗯。
Yeah, you still haven't said that.
是啊，你还没说呢。
Oh, that feels-- but you know what?
哦，那种感觉——但你知道吗？
I feel like I could tell that she was going to say no.
我觉得我可以看出她会拒绝。
No. No, I couldn't tell.
不，不，我不知道。
Ben Calhoun At that point, all you're doing is humiliating yourself.
本·卡尔霍恩：到那时，你所做的就是羞辱自己。
We go around and around.
我们绕来绕去。
Until we remember, oh right, we can just find out.
直到我们记起来，哦，对了，我们就能找到答案。
Ira goes back in.
艾拉回去了。
My friend was just in here, and he tried to get a discount from you.
我的朋友刚刚在这里，他想从你那里得到折扣。
He asked you for a good guy discount.
他向你要了一个好人折扣。
Like, five minutes ago.
就像，五分钟前。
Yes.
是的。
Yes, I recall.
是的，我记得。
Ira Glass If he had pushed harder, could he have gotten a discount?
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）如果他更努力的话，他能得到折扣吗？
No. Ira Glass If he had been more charming?
不。艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）如果他更有魅力一点呢？
Do you get an employee discount that you could have swiped a card and given him?
你能得到员工折扣吗？你可以刷卡给他吗？
Do you have any kind of discount at all that you have any kind of power to give him?
您有任何权力给予他任何折扣吗？
No. It's just a store policy.
不，这只是商店政策。
Ira Glass If your sister came in here or something, could you give her a discount?
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 如果你姐姐来这里或者什么的，你能给她折扣吗？
No. Ira Glass But you get a discount, right?
不，艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）但是你可以享受折扣，对吧？
Right, which I'm rung up by another fellow manager or associate.
是的，另一位经理或同事给我打电话。
See?
看？
All of this brings us to attempt number three, record store.
所有这些让我们进行了第三次尝试，即唱片店。
Yeah, they do still exist.
是的，它们确实仍然存在。
I grab what should amount to $70 worth of records.
我拿走了价值 70 美元的唱片。
I go to the counter.
我去柜台。
Behind it, there's a serious record store guy-- black hoodie, black wool hat, hair sticking out of the front.
在它后面，有一个严肃的唱片店家伙——黑色连帽衫，黑色羊毛帽子，头发从前面伸出。
How are you doing?
你好吗？
Ben Calhoun Hey, is there any way I could get, like, a good guy discount on those?
本·卡尔霍恩（Ben Calhoun）嘿，有什么办法可以让我得到这些东西的好人折扣吗？
No, not for new stuff.
不，不是为了新东西。
No. Because we barely make a profit on that stuff.
不。因为我们在这些东西上几乎没有利润。
Yeah, so I'm afraid not.
是的，所以恐怕不是。
I mean, so many nos in such a tiny, tiny answer.
我的意思是，在如此微小的答案中，有这么多的“不”。
I counted them-- five nos in 8.7 seconds.
我数了数——8.7 秒内有 5 个。
It's like a Russian nesting doll of no. And really, I would argue it's hard to say no that thoroughly unless you actually want to say no, unless you think you're being asked for something stupid by someone stupid.
它就像一个俄罗斯套娃。事实上，我认为很难彻底拒绝，除非你真的想拒绝，除非你认为某个愚蠢的人向你提出了一些愚蠢的要求。
This is what I believed would happen.
这就是我相信会发生的事情。
And this one, it makes me 0 for 3.
而这个，让我3分0分。
And I've got to say, it felt bad.
我不得不说，感觉很糟糕。
And it raised the obvious question, what does Sonari have that I don't?
这提出了一个显而易见的问题，索纳里有什么是我没有的？
As we headed back to the office, Ira said, maybe he's just more charming and better looking.
当我们回到办公室时，艾拉说，也许他只是更迷人、更帅了。
So I called Sonari, and I asked him something that I probably should have asked him before, which is, exactly how often does this work for him?
所以我打电话给索纳里，我问了他一些我之前可能应该问他的问题，那就是，这对他来说到底有多有效？
20%-- that's actually a lot of nos.
20%——这实际上是很多数字。
He only gets one out of five.
他只得到五分之一。
I tried three times.
我试了三次。
So I needed two more tries.
所以我还需要两次尝试。
Fine.
美好的。
So here we are, number four.
所以我们在这里，第四。
The item is a clock.
该物品是一个时钟。
And here we go.
我们开始吧。
Is there any way that you guys would give like a good guy discount on that?
你们有什么办法可以像好人一样给予折扣吗？
No, I'm sorry.
不，对不起。
Ben Calhoun No, not at all?
本·卡尔霍恩 不，一点也不？
0 for 4.
0 为 4。
I head to a small cookware shop.
我前往一家小炊具店。
And if Sonari's stats are one in five, this is the big game, do or die time.
如果索纳里的统计数据是五分之一，那么这就是一场重要的比赛，生死攸关。
If the good guy discount is real for me, then this is it.
如果好人折扣对我来说是真实的，那么就是这样。
Could I ask you, this All-Clad pot up here, would you guys ever give like a good guy discount on this?
我能问一下，这里的这个 All-Clad 锅，你们会像好人一样给予折扣吗？
You know, it's hard.
你知道，这很难。
I could probably do about 5%.
我大概可以做到5%左右。
Like the sword from the stone, my friend.
就像石头里的剑一样，我的朋友。
Behold-- the good guy discount.
看哪——好人折扣。
Apparently, it can work for anybody.
显然，它对任何人都适用。
It'll work for you.
它会对你有用。
But can we can just stop for a second?
但我们可以停下来一会儿吗？
Just stop.
停下来吧。
And I know that this is going to sound super earnest.
我知道这听起来非常认真。
And I'm real sorry about that.
我对此感到非常抱歉。
But I believe it, so I've got to say it.
但我相信，所以我必须说出来。
I don't think that you should try it.
我认为你不应该尝试。
I'm not going to try it again.
我不会再尝试了。
Sorry, Sonari.
对不起，索纳里。
I just don't think that we should go throwing around the term "good guy," like it's some kind of coupon.
我只是认为我们不应该乱用“好人”这个词，就像它是某种优惠券一样。
I think that "good guy" means something.
我认为“好人”是有一定意义的。
Just the other day, I was with my son and my dad.
就在前几天，我和我的儿子和爸爸在一起。
And my kid is eating cake.
我的孩子正在吃蛋糕。
He's two.
他两岁了。
He loves cake.
他喜欢蛋糕。
And he's got one bite left.
他还剩下一口。
And I say, can I have a bite?
我说，我可以吃一口吗？
And he looks up at me.
他抬头看着我。
And he holds out his hand, offers me his last bite.
他伸出手，给我最后一口。
And my dad says, what a good guy.
我爸爸说，真是个好人。
When I was a kid, he used to say that to me too.
当我还是个孩子的时候，他也经常对我这么说。
I like the way the world looks during those moments.
我喜欢那些时刻世界的样子。
I think I'd rather have whatever that is than a discount.
我想我宁愿拥有任何东西，也不愿享受折扣。
Ben Calhoun is one of the producers of our program.
本·卡尔霍恩是我们节目的制作人之一。
Act Two, The Heels on the Bus.
第二幕，公交车上的高跟鞋。
So a test of whether or not you are a good guy, it can happen anywhere, as Mike Birbiglia well knows.
因此，迈克·比尔比利亚（Mike Birbiglia）深知，对你是否是好人的考验，在任何地方都可能发生。
He's a comedian and told this story onstage in New York.
他是一位喜剧演员，在纽约的舞台上讲述了这个故事。
Last week, I was meeting my wife in the city for dinner.
上周，我在城里与妻子共进晚餐。
And I went down to take the subway.
然后我就下楼去坐地铁了。
And one of the unfortunate things about living in New York with the subway-- and you guys probably know this-- is sometimes on the weekends, the subway is just off.
住在纽约有地铁的不幸的事情之一——你们可能知道这一点——有时在周末，地铁就停了。
And there'll just be a sign that's just like, there isn't the subway, you know?
只会有一个标志，就像，没有地铁，你知道吗？
And it'll say, you could take the bus, you know?
它会说，你可以乘坐公共汽车，知道吗？
It's written in pencil.
这是用铅笔写的。
And there's an ellipses, you know?
还有一个省略号，你知道吗？
So last weekend, that happened.
所以上周末，事情就发生了。
And so I walked up to the bus.
于是我走向公共汽车。
And I said to the bus driver, hey, the subway is off, but it said that I could take the bus to the subway.
我对公交车司机说，嘿，地铁停了，但是它说我可以坐公交车去地铁。
Do you know where I can get off?
你知道我在哪里下车吗？
And the bus driver said to me, and I quote, he goes, "I don't know anything about the subway."
公交车司机对我说，我引用他的话，“我对地铁一无所知。”
I was like, you don't know anything about the subway?
我当时就想，你对地铁一无所知吗？
You're wearing the same outfit as the man running the subway.
你和地铁里的那个人穿着同样的衣服。
If someone said to me, you see that guy walking down the street with the khaki shorts and the Kings of Leon T-shirt?
如果有人对我说，你看到那个穿着卡其色短裤和莱昂国王 T 恤走在街上的人了吗？
You know anything about that guy?
你知道那个人的事吗？
I'd be like, yeah, I'll tell you a few things about that guy.
我会说，是的，我会告诉你一些关于那个人的事情。
I know that he could use somebody.
我知道他可以利用某人。
There's only one other person on the bus.
公交车上只有一个人。
And it's this guy.
就是这个人。
And he looked up at me, and he goes, I'm taking the subway.
他抬头看着我，然后说道，我要坐地铁。
You can follow me.
你可以跟着我。
So now I'm in an action film.
所以现在我正在拍动作片。
I'm like, got it.
我想，明白了。
I sit down, and I'm following this guy.
我坐下来，跟着这个人。
And then we go a few stops.
然后我们就走了几站。
And this lady walks onto the bus.
这位女士走上公共汽车。
And she was a pretty lady.
她是一位漂亮的女士。
And she wasn't just bus pretty.
她不仅仅是公交车上的美女。
Like, she was pretty for the world.
就像，她对这个世界来说很漂亮。
And I did this thing that I sometimes do when I see a pretty lady, which is I looked at her long enough to realize that she was pretty.
当我看到一位漂亮女士时，我有时会做这件事，那就是我看着她足够长的时间，意识到她很漂亮。
And then I looked at the floor.
然后我看着地板。
And then I never looked up again.
然后我就再也没有抬头看过。
That's my move.
这就是我的举动。
And so I'm looking at the floor.
所以我看着地板。
And then I'm looking up at this guy I'm about to follow, because he's, like, my ride.
然后我抬头看着我即将跟随的那个人，因为他就像是我的座驾。
But then he was staring at the lady.
但随后他就盯着那位女士。
And I know we're all guilty of staring at some point or another.
我知道我们都会因为盯着某个时刻而感到内疚。
I think we've all done it.
我想我们都已经做到了。
But I think that there's an etiquette to staring.
但我认为凝视是有礼仪的。
I think that you can use your peripheral vision if you want to look at somebody.
我认为如果你想看某人，你可以使用你的余光。
You can stare at someone like you're inside of a spooky painting in Scooby-Doo where your face doesn't move, but then your eyes pan side to side, like you're living in the walls of a mansion.
你可以盯着某人，就像你在《史酷比》中的一幅怪异画作中，你的脸一动不动，但你的眼睛从一边扫到另一边，就像你住在豪宅的墙壁里一样。
But this guy was not doing the spooky painting.
但这家伙并不是在画怪异的画。
He was just full-on staring at this lady like a gargoyle.
他只是像石像鬼一样全神贯注地盯着这位女士。
And I was so mad.
我很生气。
I was just like, we all want to stare at the lady.
我当时想，我们都想盯着那位女士看。
But we don't.
但我们不这样做。
Because we are decent people.
因为我们是正派的人。
And we have decided as a group that we are not going to stare at the pretty lady.
我们集体决定不再盯着那位漂亮女士看。
But that's the difference between decent people and creepy people.
但这就是正派人和令人毛骨悚然的人之间的区别。
Creepy people do the things that decent people want to do but have decided are probably not a great idea.
令人毛骨悚然的人做正派人想做但认为可能不是一个好主意的事情。
Decent people are like, I would like to stare at that pretty lady, but it will make her feel uncomfortable.
正派的人会说，我愿意盯着那位漂亮女士看，但这会让她感到不舒服。
Creepy people are like, look, I'm going for it.
令人毛骨悚然的人会说，看，我会努力的。
We go a few more stops, and the creepy guy stands up, looks at me, and says, let's go.
我们又走了几站，那个令人毛骨悚然的家伙站起来，看着我，说，我们走吧。
I was like, oh great.
我当时想，哦，太棒了。
Now she thinks I'm with you.
现在她认为我和你在一起。
This pretty lady and I have built up a rapport where we have an understanding that she is pretty and I am decent.
这位漂亮的女士和我建立了融洽的关系，我们都知道她很漂亮，而我很正派。
And when I am in her presence, I stare at the floor.
当我在她面前时，我盯着地板。
And now she thinks I am with you, a creepy man.
现在她认为我和你在一起，一个令人毛骨悚然的男人。
And so as I walk by this woman, I try to convey all of this with my eyes.
所以当我走过这个女人时，我试图用我的眼睛传达这一切。
Like, I am not with this guy.
就像，我不和这个人在一起。
And that look takes so long to convey that the look itself becomes creepy.
而且这种表情需要很长时间才能传达出来，以至于这种表情本身就变得令人毛骨悚然。
And I know it.
我知道。
And so I say, sorry, which were the first words uttered in a conversation we were not having.
所以我说，对不起，这是我们没有进行的谈话中说的第一句话。
As this woman understands her bus ride, she walked onto a bus, a creepy man stared at her for 10 minutes and then left the bus, and then another man, who she did not know was on the bus, approached her and apologized, which means what he did is worse.
当这名女子了解自己乘坐公交车的情况后，她走上了公交车，一名令人毛骨悚然的男子盯着她看了10分钟，然后离开了公交车，然后另一名她不认识的男子走近她并向她道歉，这意味着他所做的事情更糟糕。
And I'm so frustrated about the unfairness of the situation that when I get to the dinner with my wife, I'm explaining this whole thing in detail.
我对这种不公平的情况感到非常沮丧，以至于当我和妻子共进晚餐时，我正在详细解释整件事。
And I'm like, it's not fair, because I am not creepy.
我想，这不公平，因为我并不令人毛骨悚然。
I am decent.
我很正派。
And my wife says, wait, is the moral of the story that you want credit for just not being creepy?
我的妻子说，等等，你只是因为不令人毛骨悚然而想要赞扬这个故事的寓意吗？
And I was like, exactly.
我当时想，正是如此。
Because I think that decent people are undervalued.
因为我认为正派的人被低估了。
And my wife says, but you do get credit.
我妻子说，但你确实得到了荣誉。
I married you.
我嫁给了你。
And I said, I want more than that.
我说，我想要的不止这些。
Mike Birbiglia.
迈克·比尔比利亚。
He's heading out next week on a 100-city tour from Milwaukee to Melbourne, or should I say "Melbin," called Thank God for Jokes.
下周他将开始一次从密尔沃基到墨尔本（或者我应该说“墨尔本”）的 100 个城市巡演，名为“感谢上帝的笑话”。
Details about when he is visiting your town at birbigs.com.
有关他何时访问您所在城镇的详细信息，请访问 birbigs.com。
Coming up, proving that you're a good guy to somebody who will never, ever know what you did.
即将到来，向那些永远不会知道你做了什么的人证明你是一个好人。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.
一分钟后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today on our program-- good guys, stories of people trying to be good guys and not always sure if they're succeeding.
今天在我们的节目中——好人，人们试图成为好人但并不总是确定他们是否成功的故事。
We have arrived at Act Three of our program.
我们已经到了我们计划的第三幕了。
Act Three, No Man Left Behind.
第三幕，没有人掉队。
We now turn to a kind of classic story of a buddy who's trying to do a solid for another guy from Julia DeWitt.
现在我们来看一个经典故事，讲的是一个朋友试图为朱莉娅·德威特的另一个人做点实事。
Out in the desert scrublands of northern South Africa in a place called The Karoo, there's nothing-- no trees, no water-- for as far as you can see.
在南非北部的沙漠灌木丛中，有一个叫卡鲁的地方，放眼望去，什么也没有——没有树木，没有水。
This is Don Shirley.
这是唐·雪莉。
Why he knows this place so well will become clear in a minute.
为什么他对这个地方这么了解，一会儿就会明白。
You see a little rise.
你会看到一点点上升。
And when you get to the little hill, there's actually a big hollow there where the ground has collapsed.
当你到达小山时，那里实际上有一个大坑，地面塌陷了。
At the bottom of a very steep slope, you actually have a sheer face in front of you.
在一个非常陡峭的斜坡底部，你面前实际上有一张纯粹的脸。
And at the bottom of this sheer face is a puddle.
在这张纯粹的脸的底部是一个水坑。
So you think, oh, this is just a little puddle that doesn't go anywhere.
所以你会想，哦，这只是一个小水坑，不会去任何地方。
But when you take the duck weed off the top, it's actually clear water.
但当你把上面的鸭草去掉时，它实际上是清澈的水。
Which means that this isn't just standing water.
这意味着这不仅仅是死水。
This water is filtering down to somewhere.
这些水正在过滤到某个地方。
Now, if you go into this puddle, there's a small slot that goes through, which is just wide enough for a man's body to go through.
现在，如果你进入这个水坑，就会有一个小槽穿过，它的宽度刚好足以让一个人的身体通过。
After 20 foot, you're now starting to enter the cave, and gradually the cave gets wider.
20英尺后，你开始进入洞穴，洞穴逐渐变宽。
Down below you is 900 feet of water.
您下方是 900 英尺深的水。
This is Bushman's Cave.
这就是布须曼人的洞穴。
It's a huge cave.
这是一个巨大的洞穴。
Now, if you take the Eiffel Tower and stand it on the floor of Bushman's Cave, the top of the tower would be just about coming out of the water.
现在，如果你把埃菲尔铁塔立在布须曼洞的地板上，塔顶就快要露出水面了。
The cave is almost 1,000 feet deep and 2 and 1/2 football fields wide.
该洞穴深约 1,000 英尺，宽 2又1/2 足球场。
The main thing that lives in the pitch darkness is a species of strange little blind white cave shrimp.
生活在漆黑之中的主要生物是一种奇怪的小盲白洞虾。
Otherwise, the cave is dark, deep, and dead.
否则的话，这个山洞又黑又深，死气沉沉。
This cave is a dangerous place for humans.
这个洞穴对人类来说是一个危险的地方。
And it's basically totally inaccessible to almost all of us.
而且我们几乎所有人基本上都无法接触到它。
But for deep water divers, this is heaven.
但对于深水潜水员来说，这里就是天堂。
There are only a very few divers on the planet that have ever been anywhere near the bottom of this cave.
地球上只有极少数潜水员曾经到过这个洞穴底部附近的任何地方。
And only about a dozen recreational divers ever dive to these kinds of depths, period.
只有大约十几名休闲潜水员曾潜入过这种深度。
Don is one of these extreme divers.
唐就是这些极限潜水员之一。
He met another of these deep water divers, a guy named Dave Shaw, back in 2002.
2002 年，他遇到了另一位深水潜水员，名叫戴夫·肖 (Dave Shaw)。
They were immediately friends.
他们立刻成为了朋友。
And a couple of years later, Don took Dave to dive Bushman's.
几年后，唐带着戴夫去布须曼潜水。
On dive day, they got to the puddle, and Dave went in first.
潜水那天，他们到达了水坑，戴夫第一个进去。
Dave swam down through the slot, and the cave opened up below him.
戴夫游过狭缝，洞穴在他下面打开了。
While he was going down, he was doing something called laying a shot line.
当他下降时，他正在做一种叫做铺设投篮线的事情。
Basically, he was leaving a trail of rope in the total darkness.
基本上，他在完全的黑暗中留下了一条绳子的痕迹。
This is the only way he knew how to get out of the cave.
这是他知道如何离开山洞的唯一方法。
You're in pitch black, absolute pitch black.
你身处一片漆黑，绝对的漆黑。
So if you shined a light in any direction, it would disappear.
因此，如果你向任何方向照射光，它就会消失。
The darkness will eat the light.
黑暗将会吞噬光明。
Basically, being 900 foot in a cave, you might as well be on the Moon.
基本上，在 900 英尺高的洞穴里，你就像在月球上一样。
In fact, I think more people have walked on the Moon than have actually been to those sorts of depths in caves.
事实上，我认为在月球上行走的人比真正去过洞穴深处的人还要多。
This sounds unbelievable, but it's true.
这听起来令人难以置信，但却是事实。
More people have been on the Moon than have been to the depths that these guys have.
登上月球的人比深入月球深处的人还多。
Now, Dave was exploring on the bare floor of the cavern.
现在，戴夫正在洞穴的光秃秃的地板上探索。
There's nothing to see but his light in the black and the white rope that he dragged with him.
除了他在黑色中的光芒和他随身拖着的白色绳子之外，什么也看不见。
Then suddenly--
然后突然——
His torch caught the remains of Deon Dreyer.
他的火炬照亮了德翁·德雷尔的遗体。
No one knows exactly what happened to Deon Dreyer.
没有人确切知道德翁·德雷尔发生了什么事。
But a decade earlier, Deon was diving with a team in Bushman's.
但十年前，德翁正在布须曼的一个团队中潜水。
When they stopped to take a headcount, Deon was gone.
当他们停下来清点人数时，德恩已经走了。
People had been looking for his body ever since.
从那时起人们就一直在寻找他的尸体。
He was still in his wetsuit, still wearing his cylinders-- a collection of bones inside a wetsuit.
他还穿着潜水服，还戴着气瓶——潜水服里藏着一堆骨头。
And at the time, he tried to move the body.
而此时，他正试图移动身体。
But the body was stuck in the silt.
但尸体却陷在淤泥里。
He was panting, and he said, I shouldn't work hard at this depth.
他气喘吁吁，他说，我不应该在这么深的地方努力。
It wasn't in the plan.
这不在计划之内。
So I needed to leave the body there.
所以我需要把尸体留在那里。
Deon was 20 when he was lost in Bushman's.
Deon 在布须曼人家迷路时才 20 岁。
Dave didn't take finding Deon lightly.
戴夫并没有掉以轻心地寻找迪恩。
He thought of it more of a mission to actually-- his task to bring this body back.
他认为这更像是一个使命——他的任务是把这具身体带回来。
So when Dave came up, he told Don he was going to come back and get Deon's body.
因此，当戴夫出现时，他告诉唐他要回来取走迪恩的尸体。
He phoned up Deon's parents and said, I'm going to retrieve your son's body.
他打电话给迪恩的父母说，我要去取回你儿子的尸体。
The thing is that a dive like this is a major operation.
问题是，像这样的潜水是一项重大手术。
It took them months to plan.
他们花了几个月的时间来计划。
You're at 900 foot under the water.
您位于水下 900 英尺处。
There's a lot of risk involved in that.
这其中存在很大的风险。
Every 33 foot that you go down effectively doubles the risk.
每下降 33 英尺，风险就会增加一倍。
When you're down at those depths, anything that goes wrong is an issue.
当你陷入这样的深度时，任何出错的事情都会成为问题。
Combining extreme depths with the hard work that Dave had to do to get Deon's body into a body bag came with a lot of risk.
将迪恩的尸体放入裹尸袋的极端深度与戴夫必须做的艰苦工作相结合，带来了很大的风险。
At depth, too much nitrogen is kind of like a narcotic.
在深处，过多的氮气有点像麻醉剂。
Basically, it feels suddenly like you drank five martinis in a row.
基本上，感觉就像你突然连续喝了五杯马提尼酒。
Too much helium can give you twitching fits.
太多的氦气会让你抽搐。
If you breathe too heavily, like Dave might have to while he's moving around Deon's body, you pass out.
如果你呼吸太重，就像戴夫在迪恩的身体周围移动时可能需要的那样，你就会昏倒。
And then, of course, there's the bends.
当然，还有弯道。
If you come too quickly, it's like opening a Coke bottle once you've shook it up.
如果你来得太快，就像摇匀后打开可乐瓶一样。
And it fizzes.
它发出嘶嘶声。
And then, you would have problems with bubbles in your blood.
然后，你的血液中就会出现气泡的问题。
To prevent the bends, Dave would take several hours to come up to the surface.
为了防止弯曲，戴夫需要几个小时才能浮出水面。
So they recruited a team of support divers that would go into the water intervals to check on Dave at various depths while he came up.
因此，他们招募了一支支持潜水员团队，当戴夫上来时，他们会进入水中不同深度的地方检查他的情况。
And the rule was, no one will go deeper than the depth where we actually plan for them to be.
规则是，没有人会比我们实际计划的深度更深。
Don would go the deepest.
唐会走得最深。
Don Shirley But as far as Dave and I were concerned, basically what we said is if Dave has a problem, he would signal me.
Don Shirley 但就 Dave 和我而言，基本上我们所说的是，如果 Dave 有问题，他会向我发出信号。
And in caving, when you flash a light, you wave a light around, that's a distress signal.
在洞穴探险中，当你闪光时，你会向四周挥动灯光，这是求救信号。
We got to the day that we're actually planning to do the main dive.
我们到了真正计划进行主要潜水的那一天。
And we went down early in the morning.
我们一早就下山了。
It was still dark.
天还黑着。
The sun was not quite up yet.
太阳还没有完全升起。
And at 6:15, Dave went under the water.
6点15分，戴夫沉入水下。
I followed 14 minutes later.
14分钟后我跟了上去。
Don followed the shot line down through the slot and into the cave.
唐沿着射击线穿过狭缝进入洞穴。
So as I was going down, falling through this black space, I was expecting to see some rising bubbles as I was going down.
因此，当我下降，穿过这个黑色空间时，我期望在下降时看到一些上升的气泡。
Also I would see Dave's light where he was coming back.
我也会在戴夫回来的地方看到他的光。
When I was going down, I didn't actually see any bubbles coming back.
当我下降时，我实际上没有看到任何气泡回来。
What I did see-- in the area where I thought he would actually be, I did see a light.
我确实看到了——在我认为他实际上会在的地方，我确实看到了一盏灯。
It was one light, a solid light just shining.
那是一盏灯，一盏闪亮的固体灯。
But the light wasn't moving.
但光没有移动。
Don Shirley Something is not quite right.
唐·雪莉 事情不太对劲。
And he's spending longer doing something.
他花更长的时间做某事。
And then I knew that I would probably be going down to the bottom.
然后我就知道我可能会跌入谷底。
Don dove past 800 feet, deeper than he had ever been before.
唐潜入了 800 英尺，比以前更深。
Now, I went past my target depth.
现在，我超出了目标深度。
But the problem was, as I got to 833 foot, I actually had my own personal problems go on then.
但问题是，当我到达 833 英尺时，我实际上遇到了自己的个人问题。
He heard a sharp crack.
他听到一声尖锐的破裂声。
Don Shirley My rebreather controller actually imploded.
唐·雪莉 我的循环呼吸器控制器实际上爆炸了。
This just means a piece of his breathing apparatus broke.
这只是意味着他的呼吸器有一块坏了。
Don trained constantly for moments like this.
唐为了这样的时刻不断训练。
So he knew exactly what to do.
所以他清楚地知道该怎么做。
He would just add oxygen to his gas mixture manually.
他只需手动向气体混合物中添加氧气即可。
But at that sort of depth, any oxygen that you add makes a hell of a difference.
但在那样的深度，你添加的任何氧气都会产生巨大的变化。
And I pushed my oxygen pressure much too high inadvertently.
我无意中将氧气压力推得太高了。
Now, that's very unhealthy at that depth-- very unhealthy.
现在，在这个深度上这是非常不健康的——非常不健康。
So now, I was liable to actually pass out very quickly.
所以现在我很可能很快就昏倒了。
Don knew then that this was it.
唐当时就知道就是这样了。
It was the end of the line.
已经到了终点。
He had to turn around and go back.
他只得转身回去。
The surface is not somewhere that you can actually go to solve a problem.
表面并不是你可以真正去解决问题的地方。
When you have a problem, you have to solve that problem there where you are.
当你遇到问题时，你必须在你所在的地方解决该问题。
And if you don't solve that problem, you don't come back.
如果你不解决这个问题，你就不会回来。
You have to put the brakes on, as it were, at that point.
在那一点上，你必须踩刹车。
And I was thinking, OK, Dave might come back.
我在想，好吧，戴夫可能会回来。
He's either dead, or he's working his way back.
他要么死了，要么正在努力回来。
But all I could deal with was what was in front of me.
但我能处理的只是眼前的事情。
Don knew that he now had over 10 hours in the water ahead of him.
唐知道他现在还有 10 多个小时待在水里。
Don slowly ascended up to the roof of the cave.
唐慢慢地登上了洞顶。
At this point, he started to pass out.
此时，他开始昏倒。
And then, he got a helium bubble in his ear.
然后，他的耳朵里进了一个氦气泡。
And that made me lose balance completely.
这让我完全失去了平衡。
I'm over this extreme depth of water.
我已经越过这么深的水了。
You then have no-- absolutely no-- sense of up, down, sideways, or anything.
然后你就没有——绝对没有——上、下、侧向或任何东西的感觉。
And I didn't really have any sense of really where I was.
我真的不知道自己到底在哪里。
Don lost grip on the shot line.
唐失去了对投篮线的控制。
And as he was passing out, reviving again, and passing out, he started swimming in these little circles, spinning around looking for the line.
当他昏倒、再次苏醒、再昏倒时，他开始在这些小圆圈里游泳，旋转着寻找线。
Remember, this line is the only way Don knows how to get out of the cave.
请记住，这条线是唐知道如何离开洞穴的唯一方法。
And I'm in this void, the black.
而我就在这虚空之中，黑色之中。
I had an extremely bright light in my hand.
我手里拿着一盏极其明亮的灯。
And where the light was going into the black, I was seeing black.
当光线进入黑色时，我看到的是黑色。
And where the light was hitting the roof, I was seeing light, white.
在光线照射到屋顶的地方，我看到了白色的光。
And then, I'd keep spinning around like that.
然后我就这样一直转下去。
So I was seeing black, white, black, white, black, white.
所以我看到的是黑，白，黑，白，黑，白。
And then, I caught the line, the white line, in my torch.
然后，我用手电筒抓住了那条线，那条白线。
And the next time I spun around, I grabbed hold of the line.
当我再次转身时，我抓住了绳子。
The trouble was, now I had vertigo.
问题是，现在我感到眩晕。
And that makes you vomit, right?
这会让你呕吐，对吧？
So now, I was vomiting underwater as well, vomiting in between breaths, effectively.
所以现在，我也在水下呕吐，有效地在呼吸之间呕吐。
As time went on, I couldn't breathe anymore.
随着时间的流逝，我已经无法呼吸了。
Don eventually stabilized himself.
唐最终稳定了自己的情绪。
And he started his ascent again towards the surface.
然后他又开始向地面上升。
He met a support diver.
他遇到了一名支援潜水员。
And using a waterproof pencil and one of these slates the divers use to communicate underwater, Don wrote him a message.
唐用一支防水铅笔和潜水员用来在水下交流的石板给他写了一条信息。
I said, I'm OK, and Dave's not coming back.
我说，我很好，戴夫不会回来了。
But still, in my mind, I had a hope that he would.
但在我心里，我仍然希望他会这么做。
From that point on, the guys had a task, which was to support me.
从那时起，这些人就有了一个任务，那就是支持我。
For hours, the team up above waited to see if he would make it out alive.
上面的团队等待了几个小时，看看他是否能活着出来。
His only job was to breathe.
他唯一的工作就是呼吸。
Dave's light down below had disappeared.
下面戴夫的光已经消失了。
If you see the videos of me coming up, you would think, this guy's half-dead.
如果你看到我的视频，你会想，这家伙已经半死不活了。
It had been just over 12 hours in the water.
已经在水里呆了12个多小时了。
I couldn't actually really do much for myself other than breathe.
除了呼吸之外，我实际上不能为自己做太多事情。
My head was like a marshmallow.
我的头就像棉花糖一样。
Don was put into a decompression chamber and then taken in the morning for more treatment at a hospital in Johannesburg.
唐被送入减压室，并于早上被送往约翰内斯堡的一家医院接受进一步治疗。
Dave did not come up that night.
那天晚上戴夫没有出现。
Dave was dead.
戴夫死了。
And then, a week later, Don got some news.
一周后，唐得到了一些消息。
I actually was told that Dave's body had come up.
事实上我被告知戴夫的尸体已经出现了。
During that week, there'd been lots of speculation as to what had happened.
那一周，人们对发生的事情有很多猜测。
Dave was carrying a camera on his head.
戴夫头上顶着一台相机。
In retrieving the camera, then we could piece together really what happened.
在取回相机后，我们就可以拼凑出到底发生了什么。
As the camera rolls, you see Dave trying to get Deon's body into a body bag.
随着镜头的转动，你看到戴夫试图把迪恩的尸体装进裹尸袋。
One of his lights had actually got tangled up in the line and smashed.
他的一盏灯实际上被电线缠住并被砸碎了。
So now, bearing in mind you're in the pitch black, his main light had actually been broken.
所以现在，考虑到你身处一片漆黑，他的主灯实际上已经坏了。
So he couldn't really see so well.
所以他真的看不太清楚。
Then Dave also gets tangled.
然后戴夫也陷入了困境。
He pulls away.
他退开。
But now he's tied to Deon's body.
但现在他被绑在了Deon的身体上。
And you could see that he was working trying to get himself out of this line.
你可以看到他正在努力让自己摆脱困境。
He was cutting with the scissors.
他正在用剪刀剪东西。
But his scissors weren't even getting anywhere near the line.
但他的剪刀根本没有靠近那条线。
Listening to the video, you can hear Dave's breathing start to get shallower and shallower as he starts working harder and harder.
听视频，你可以听到戴夫的呼吸开始变得越来越浅，因为他开始越来越努力地工作。
Dave passed out from too much carbon dioxide.
戴夫因吸入过多二氧化碳而昏倒。
He worked right up-- right up-- to the very last breath that he ever took trying to get out.
他一直努力——一直努力——直到他试图逃脱的最后一口气。
And then the camera just carries on recording until the batteries run out.
然后相机继续录制，直到电池耗尽。
There's barely a day goes by where I don't think of Dave.
我几乎每天都会想起戴夫。
And really, there are a lot of times I turn around-- I do a fantastic dive, and I just want to say, did you see that?
真的，有很多次我转身——我做了一次很棒的潜水，我只想说，你看到了吗？
And Dave very much did die nobly doing what he did.
戴夫确实以他所做的事情而光荣地死去。
He did everything that he should do.
他做了他应该做的一切。
And he died, as they'd say in the military, with his boots on.
正如他们在军队中所说的那样，他死时还穿着靴子。
When Dave's body had come up, hanging underneath Dave's body, cocooned in the line that Dave originally had laid, was Deon Dreyer's body.
当戴夫的尸体浮上来时，悬挂在戴夫身体下方、包裹在戴夫最初布下的线中的，就是德昂·德雷尔的尸体。
So Dave actually achieved what he wanted to do.
所以戴夫实际上实现了他想做的事情。
That story came from Julia DeWitt.
这个故事来自朱莉娅·德威特。
That was first broadcast on the Public Radio show Snap Judgment , which has gotten so good.
这是在公共广播电台节目《快速审判》中首次播出的，效果非常好。
If you are not downloading their podcast every week already, it's at snapjudgment.org or the iTunes store.
如果您还没有每周下载他们的播客，可以在 snapjudgment.org 或 iTunes 商店下载。
They're also heard on many Public Radio stations.
许多公共广播电台也能听到他们的声音。
Act Four, The Deepest, Darkest Open Secret.
第四幕，最深、最黑暗的公开秘密。
More than four years ago, back in 2009, a US soldier got in touch with our program.
四年多前，即 2009 年，一名美国士兵联系了我们的项目。
And he was attached to a special operations combat unit.
他隶属于特种作战部队。
He was getting ready to deploy to Afghanistan.
他正准备部署到阿富汗。
And he offered to do a story for us about what it's really like to serve.
他主动提出为我们讲一个关于服务的真实感受的故事。
One of our program's producers, Sarah Koenig, started talking to him.
我们的节目制作人之一莎拉·科尼格开始与他交谈。
His one condition is that we would not use his name.
他的一个条件是我们不能使用他的名字。
So for this story that you're about to hear, we're calling him Adam, which is a pseudonym that he chose.
因此，对于您即将听到的这个故事，我们称他为亚当，这是他选择的化名。
And a disclaimer-- Adam says some disturbing things about himself, but also about his fellow soldiers.
还有一个免责声明——亚当说了一些关于他自己以及他的战友的令人不安的话。
We want to be clear that this is just his own experience.
我们想澄清这只是他自己的经历。
This is his own thoughts.
这是他自己的想法。
This is his own perspective, his own story.
这是他自己的观点，他自己的故事。
He does not speak for the military in general.
他并不代表整个军队发言。
He is speaking for himself.
他是在为自己说话。
We think also that this story about war probably is not something that children should be hearing.
我们还认为这个关于战争的故事可能不适合孩子们听到。
And a warning-- also we quote some people who use an offensive term at one point in the story.
还有一个警告——我们还引用了一些在故事中一度使用攻击性术语的人的话。
OK, here's Sarah.
好的，这是莎拉。
When he first got in touch with us, Adam said he wasn't like the other guys in the Army.
当亚当第一次与我们联系时，他说他不像陆军中的其他人。
For one thing, he was almost 30 when he joined, about a decade older than most people.
一方面，他加入时已经快30岁了，比大多数人年长大约10岁。
And he'd had a good career in the tech world as an engineer.
作为一名工程师，他在科技界有着不错的职业生涯。
But he had been unhappy doing that.
但他对此并不高兴。
He wanted to try something difficult and frightening and unknown.
他想尝试一些困难、可怕、未知的事情。
He decided he wanted to go to war, even though he thought the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were bogus and even though the other guys in his unit considered him-- and this is their language-- a "liberal fagot." So yeah, he said he'd give us an outsider's perspective.
他决定参战，尽管他认为阿富汗和伊拉克的战争是假的，尽管他所在部队的其他人认为他——这是他们的语言——“自由派基佬”。是的，他说他会给我们一个局外人的观点。
And I said, sure, let's see what happens.
我说，当然，让我们看看会发生什么。
So he started sending me recordings from Afghanistan like installments in a diary.
所以他开始向我发送来自阿富汗的录音，就像日记中的分期付款一样。
And then, not too long after he deployed, Adam sent me a recording I found jarring.
然后，就在他部署后不久，亚当给我发了一段我觉得很刺耳的录音。
In infantry school, I would be shocked of the reasons that people were there.
在步兵学校，我会对人们在那里的原因感到震惊。
People-- well, I wouldn't say "people." Men want to kill other young men.
人们——好吧，我不会说“人们”。男人想杀死其他年轻人。
That's why they were there.
这就是他们在那里的原因。
It seemed to Adam that the way they talked about it, a lot of macho bluster about wanting to kill the bad guys, was just a cover for a much more basic desire they had-- that deep down, these guys didn't want to just kill the enemy.
在亚当看来，他们谈论这件事的方式，很多关于想要杀死坏人的男子气概的咆哮，只是他们拥有一个更基本的愿望的掩护——在内心深处，这些家伙不想仅仅杀死敌人。
They wanted the opportunity to kill another human being period.
他们想要有机会杀死另一个人。
Not everyone was like this, he said, but most of them.
他说，不是每个人都是这样，但大多数人都是这样。
And at first, Adam said, this kind of disturbed him.
亚当说，一开始，这让他感到不安。
But then, after a while, it didn't.
但过了一段时间，却没有。
So I've really realized, building up to my deployment, that I'm not any different than most of these people.
所以我真的意识到，在我的部署过程中，我和这些人中的大多数没有什么不同。
Regardless of the noble aspirations I say I have for joining the army, I'm pretty sure I just want the opportunity to kill someone too.
不管我说我参军的愿望多么崇高，我很确定我也只是想要有机会杀人。
If I'm being honest with myself, it's there.
如果我对自己诚实的话，它就在那里。
Take a moment to compile all your stereotypes of a Public Radio producer.
花点时间整理一下您对公共广播电台制作人的所有刻板印象。
And now apply them to me.
现在将它们应用到我身上。
And you're right.
你是对的。
I'm exactly who you think I am.
我正是你所认为的那个人。
I'm a peaceful sort.
我是一个安静的人。
I don't come from a military family.
我不是出身于军人家庭。
I've not been in a lot of bar fights.
我没参加过很多酒吧斗殴事件。
I haven't lived in the South, playing violent video games.
我没有在南方生活过，也没有玩过暴力电子游戏。
That makes me very different from Adam, who did all those things.
这使我与做了所有这些事情的亚当非常不同。
So I recognize I'm coming to this a little more wide-eyed than a lot of other people might.
所以我认识到我对这个问题的看法比许多其他人要更宽广一些。
Still, I don't know what to make of Adam.
不过，我还是不知道亚当会怎样。
I like him.
我喜欢他。
I like talking to him.
我喜欢和他说话。
I think he's smart and weird and honest.
我认为他很聪明、奇怪而且诚实。
Here's a rational man saying he wants to kill someone just to see what that's like.
这是一个理性的人说他想杀人只是为了看看那是什么样子。
What are we supposed to make of that?
我们应该对此做些什么呢？
But this isn't a story where I'm going to get to the bottom of that question in the next 15 or 20 minutes.
但在接下来的 15 或 20 分钟内，我不会深入探讨这个问题。
This is a story where I just ask that you hear him out.
这是一个我只想请你听他说完的故事。
Some things you should know before we start-- Adam ended up doing three different tours in Afghanistan between 2009 and 2011.
在我们开始之前您应该了解一些事情 - Adam 在 2009 年至 2011 年间最终在阿富汗进行了三次不同的旅行。
And he never did kill anyone.
而且他从未杀过任何人。
Being in war messed him up in certain ways.
战争在某些方面让他陷入困境。
He's been seeing psychologists weekly for a couple of years.
几年来，他每周都会去看心理学家。
He's been diagnosed with severe PTSD.
他被诊断患有严重的创伤后应激障碍。
He has dramatic mood swings.
他的情绪波动很大。
And he barely sleeps, maybe three or four hours a night.
他几乎不睡觉，每晚可能睡三四个小时。
Adam's not on active duty anymore.
亚当不再服役了。
He's back in the US working on a Ph.D. And so recently I played him back some of the recordings he'd sent me.
他回到美国攻读博士学位。最近我给他播放了一些他发给我的录音。
I wanted to find out what he made of his 2009 self.
我想知道他对 2009 年的自己有何看法。
And he said, yeah, what I said back then about wanting to kill someone, that wasn't an exaggeration.
他说，是的，我当时说的想要杀人，这并不夸张。
And it had surprised him to realize it, he said, because he was in his late 20s when he joined.
他说，他意识到这一点让他感到惊讶，因为他加入时才 20 多岁。
He thought he knew himself pretty well.
他以为他很了解自己。
But the army and the training, it changed him.
但军队和训练改变了他。
You do learn to-- they do teach you to want that.
你确实学会了——他们确实教你想要那样。
You yearn for that in basic training, or at least infantry basic training.
你渴望在基础训练中，或者至少是步兵基础训练中做到这一点。
Just over and over again, the only success you ever have is hitting a target or winning a fight in basic training.
一次又一次，你唯一的成功就是在基础训练中击中目标或赢得一场战斗。
Everything else you do you're criticized for.
你所做的其他一切都会受到批评。
But if you do those things, you're doing good.
但如果你做了这些事情，你就做得很好。
And the interaction you have with the drill sergeant, most of it is based on killing somebody.
你与教官的互动，大部分都是基于杀人。
I want to play you another piece of tape.
我想再给你放一盘磁带。
It's when you get some prisoners that you're in charge of.
当你得到一些你负责的囚犯时。
OK.
好的。
Here, I'm going to play it.
在这里，我要玩一下。
We recently just rolled up two high-valued targets.
我们最近刚刚汇总了两个高价值目标。
And we didn't kill them.
我们没有杀死他们。
We captured them.
我们抓住了他们。
And we brought them back to base.
我们把他们带回基地。
And we have a temporary holding facility-- temporary jail, really-- where we kept them until they could be transferred to Bagram.
我们有一个临时拘留设施——实际上是临时监狱——我们把他们关在那里，直到他们被转移到巴格拉姆空军基地。
And while they were being held here, which was like three days, we had to rotate shifts just to guard them.
他们被关在这里大约三天的时间里，我们不得不轮班看守他们。
It's just a basic sit outside their cell, make sure that they don't hang themselves type of thing.
这只是他们牢房外的基本休息，确保他们不会上吊之类的事情。
And at least two other people came up to me and said it was really hard for them not to shoot them while they were in the cell.
至少还有另外两个人走过来对我说，当他们在牢房里时，他们很难不向他们开枪。
Now, don't get me wrong.
现在，别误会我的意思。
One of these guys was a Taliban leader, and another guy was his little deputy.
其中一个是塔利班领导人，另一个是他的小副手。
These were bad people.
这些都是坏人。
But they were really nice.
但他们真的很好。
I mean, personal interactions with them-- I felt bad for them.
我的意思是，与他们的个人互动——我为他们感到难过。
Because they're crying.
因为他们在哭。
They miss their families.
他们想念家人。
They were very polite.
他们非常有礼貌。
But even I wanted to shoot them, even though they were unarmed, behind bars, uncombative.
但即使是我也想开枪射杀他们，尽管他们手无寸铁，关在监狱里，毫无斗志。
Something-- it's not a revenge thing.
某事——这不是报复。
It's not a hey, you killed a bunch of my buddies thing, hey, you're a threat to society thing.
这不是嘿，你杀了我一群朋友的事，嘿，你是对社会的威胁。
It's a hey, I want to shoot you, because I want to know what it's like, what it feels like to shoot you.
嘿，我想向你开枪，因为我想知道向你开枪是什么感觉，是什么感觉。
It sounds sick.
听起来很恶心。
But it's probably much more prevalent than most people care to believe.
但它可能比大多数人愿意相信的更为普遍。
Um-- do you remember that?
嗯——你还记得吗？
Adam No. It's completely accurate.
亚当 不。这是完全准确的。
I remember feeling those things.
我记得那些感觉。
I don't remember that specific situation, just because I can't remember those specific people.
我不记得具体的情况，只是因为我记不起那些具体的人。
But that's just because that situation happened so many times.
但那只是因为这种情况发生过很多次了。
Oh, really?
哦真的吗？
Adam Yeah.
亚当 是的。
More times than I can count.
次数多得我数不过来。
Half the people we rolled up were probably innocent.
我们卷起来的人有一半可能是无辜的。
But we would have killed them all if we could have got away with it.
但如果我们能逃脱惩罚的话，我们会把他们全部杀掉。
But see, that really sounds just homicidal, like straight-up homicidal.
但是你看，这听起来真的只是杀人，就像直接杀人一样。
That is straight-up homicidal.
这简直就是杀人罪。
It was simply fear of repercussions that stopped those people from being murdered.
只是因为担心后果，这些人才没有被谋杀。
Because I've been around hundreds of men that have the same mindset.
因为我周围有数百个有着相同心态的人。
This is not me.
这不是我。
I am merely a representative of the community that I was working in.
我只是我所工作的社区的代表。
And you're saying that's because these are the enemy, and they're going to kill us, and so--
你说那是因为他们是敌人，他们要杀了我们，所以——
That's-- I mean, people can say it in those terms.
那是——我的意思是，人们可以用这些术语来表达。
But it's not like that.
但事实并非如此。
It's very much-- you have the power to do it.
这非常——你有能力做到这一点。
And you're on the verge of having the permission to do it.
你即将获得这样做的许可。
So you want to do it.
所以你想这么做。
So it's just more primal than that, you're saying.
所以你说，这比那更原始。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Sarah Koenig I have to say, before you talked about this, I had never heard anybody say this, really.
莎拉·科尼格（Sarah Koenig）我不得不说，在你谈到这个之前，我从来没有听过任何人这么说过，真的。
Say?
说？
Sarah Koenig That I wanted to go kill somebody and admit it.
莎拉·科尼格（Sarah Koenig）说我想去杀一个人并承认这一点。
Yeah, I've never heard anybody say it either.
是啊，我也从来没听人这么说过。
(LAUGHING) And so I can't tell if he's just crazy, or if he's the bravest bastard out there.
（笑）所以我无法判断他是否只是疯了，或者他是否是那里最勇敢的混蛋。
And he's just willing to admit something that nobody else will admit.
他只是愿意承认别人不会承认的事情。
I would say there's probably no chance that I am on one side of that spectrum or the other.
我想说，我可能不可能属于这一范围的一侧或另一侧。
It is probably somewhere in between.
它可能介于两者之间。
I can't give you an accurate estimate of which spectrum I fall closer to.
我无法准确估计我更接近哪个频谱。
I've seen four psychologists in the last 24 months.
过去 24 个月里我见过四位心理学家。
No, I don't know if I'm crazy.
不，我不知道我是否疯了。
Some people seem to think so.
有些人似乎是这么认为的。
Was it a situation where-- at this point, you're saying you're a few months in-- where every day you were kind of thinking, I wonder if today's the day I'm going to shoot someone?
是不是这样的情况——此时，你是说你已经几个月了——每天你都在想，我想知道今天是不是我要开枪射杀某人的日子？
I wonder if today's the day.
我想知道今天是否是这一天。
Every day, yes.
每天，是的。
Every day-- every mission we went out on, I was hoping I'd get to shoot somebody.
每一天——我们执行的每一次任务，我都希望能射杀某人。
This was actively talked about.
这一点得到了积极的讨论。
Everybody wanted to get their first kill.
每个人都想获得第一次杀戮。
Not everybody-- many people already had their first kill.
不是每个人——很多人已经完成了第一次杀戮。
But if you didn't have your first kill yet, everybody was talking about, OK, is this the day you're going to get your first kill?
但如果你还没有第一次杀人，每个人都会说，好吧，今天是你第一次杀人的日子吗？
Of course they know.
他们当然知道。
But if you do have a kill, people have a greater amount of trust in you.
但如果你确实杀了人，人们就会对你更加信任。
People know you're dependable.
人们知道你是可靠的。
People know that you're willing to cross that threshold.
人们知道你愿意跨越这个门槛。
And there's just some benefits to that.
这样做有一些好处。
Yeah.
是的。
Sarah Koenig The next piece of tape I want to play you, it's about being on a mission one night and having the opportunity to shoot at someone.
莎拉·科尼格（Sarah Koenig）：我想给你播放的下一段磁带是关于有一天晚上执行任务并有机会向某人开枪的。
Do you remember how long you'd been there at this point when this happened?
你还记得发生这件事时你在那里呆了多久吗？
Do you have a memory of this?
你还记得这个吗？
I remember in detail everything about this situation.
我清楚地记得有关这种情况的一切。
OK, how long had you been in Afghanistan when this happened?
好的，发生这件事时您在阿富汗多久了？
A few months.
几个月。
Sarah Koenig A few months, OK.
莎拉·科尼格 几个月，好吧。
And up until that point, it seems like you had sort of indirectly caused the deaths of people by kind of sighting people, and those guys got killed.
直到那时，你似乎通过目击人类间接造成了人们的死亡，而那些人都被杀了。
But it was indirect, is that right?
但这是间接的，对吗？
I had shot at people.
我曾向人开枪。
And I knew those people that I shot at died.
我知道那些被我射杀的人都死了。
But everybody was shooting at them.
但每个人都在向他们开枪。
So I have no idea if I shot them.
所以我不知道我是否射杀了他们。
And I called out targets to aircraft.
我向飞机喊出目标。
It's almost 1 o'clock on Sunday, November 8.
11 月 8 日，星期日，已经快 1 点了。
It's the day after a mission.
这是执行任务后的第二天。
And if my voice sounds a little weird, it's because I'm on a lot of drugs.
如果我的声音听起来有点奇怪，那是因为我服用了很多药物。
It was night, last night, and we were coming down to land.
那是晚上，昨晚，我们正要降落。
And apparently the pilot thought the ground was actually 50 to 100 feet lower than it actually was.
显然，飞行员认为地面实际上比实际低 50 到 100 英尺。
So we came slamming into the ground pretty hard.
所以我们重重地摔在地上。
And I hurt my back pretty good-- nothing structural, just some muscle.
我的背伤得很厉害——没有什么结构性的，只是一些肌肉。
But anyway, the worst part about this mission was I was on a security element.
但无论如何，这次任务最糟糕的部分是我处于安全环境中。
So people breached the door and went in there and looked for bad guys and stuff.
于是人们破门而入，寻找坏人之类的东西。
I'm looking for bad guys out in fields and around the buildings, just trying to make sure nobody's coming to get us.
我正在田野里和建筑物周围寻找坏人，只是想确保没有人来抓我们。
But I actually saw-- it's late at this point.
但我实际上看到——此时已经晚了。
There shouldn't be anybody awake walking around.
不应该有人醒着走来走去。
And I actually saw a guy.
我确实看到了一个人。
And so this guy pops up in my sites.
所以这个人就出现在我的网站上。
And I want to shoot him, but I didn't.
我想开枪打死他，但我没有。
He didn't have a gun, and he wasn't coming towards me.
他没有枪，也没有朝我过来。
But I knew he was a bad guy.
但我知道他是个坏人。
And I still didn't shoot him.
而且我还是没有开枪打他。
I don't know what that says about me.
我不知道这对我来说意味着什么。
I don't know if it means that I'm either afraid to kill somebody or just that I want to kill somebody for the right reasons.
我不知道这是否意味着我害怕杀人，或者只是因为我想杀人是有正当理由的。
Or maybe it just means I'm a puss, and I hesitate to pull the trigger.
或者也许这只是意味着我是个胆小鬼，我犹豫着要不要扣动扳机。
Oh yeah, vividly.
哦对了，生动形象。
Sarah Koenig What do you think about it now?
莎拉·柯尼格 你现在对此有何看法？
I still would have shot that guy.
我还是会开枪打死那个人。
Well, I know a lot more about that guy now.
嗯，我现在对那个人了解更多了。
He turned out to be a very bad guy.
事实证明他是一个非常坏的人。
So I definitely would have shot him on sight.
所以我绝对会一看到他就开枪打死他。
Why do you think you didn't?
你为什么认为你没有？
Adam I think I was still worried about the repercussions of shooting somebody that was unarmed.
亚当，我想我仍然担心射杀手无寸铁的人的后果。
Repercussions meaning just sort of morally to yourself or that you could actually get in trouble with your superiors or something?
影响只是对你自己产生道德上的影响，或者你实际上可能会给你的上级或其他什么带来麻烦？
Yeah, there would actually-- I thought there might be some trouble with my superiors, which there would not have been.
是的，实际上——我以为我的上级可能会遇到一些麻烦，但其实不会。
Right.
正确的。
But you're saying in the tape, maybe I just want to shoot someone for the right reasons, or I don't want to shoot somebody who's unarmed.
但你在录音带中说，也许我只是想出于正确的原因射杀某人，或者我不想射杀手无寸铁的人。
Or maybe I'm just a puss.
或者也许我只是一只猫。
You seem to be questioning more than that.
看来你的疑问还不止这些。
Yeah, I was.
是的，我是。
I was wondering if those were actually the reasons.
我想知道这些是否真的是原因。
They are not.
他们不是。
I've thought about it for about three years and five months.
我想了大约三年零五个月。
No. I messed some people up, but I never killed them.
不，我惹恼了一些人，但我从未杀死他们。
Um-- yeah, I think I missed the boat on that one, missed my opportunity to do that.
嗯——是的，我想我错过了那条船，错过了这样做的机会。
I think the opportunity to kill somebody in the United States, to have the experience of taking another life, is going to be pretty slim unless I want to go to jail or a mental institution.
我认为在美国杀人、体验夺走另一条生命的机会将非常渺茫，除非我想进监狱或精神病院。
But I'm never hearing you say, it's just wrong to kill other people.
但我从来没听你说过，杀人是错误的。
You're not saying that.
你不是这么说的。
I think it is.
我认为是的。
Adam Regardless of motive?
亚当不管动机如何？
No, I guess not regardless of motive.
不，我想无论动机如何。
But it is wrong to kill someone for the experience of killing them.
但为了获得杀人的经验而杀人是错误的。
Yeah.
是的。
So yeah, I would say maybe it is a bit sociopathic.
所以是的，我想说也许这有点反社会。
I wouldn't change how I characterize it at all, though.
不过，我根本不会改变我对它的描述。
I would say that my threshold for violence is much lower now.
我想说，现在我的暴力门槛低了很多。
And I would kill people in situations much more readily or much more quickly than the normal person would.
在某些情况下，我会比正常人更容易或更快地杀人。
And I actively hope to have those situations.
我积极希望能够出现这些情况。
Am I putting myself in those situations?
我是否将自己置于这样的境地？
Yeah, like getting in bar fights or something where somebody could get killed.
是的，比如参加酒吧斗殴或者其他可能会导致人员死亡的事情。
No. I mean, I started drinking quite a bit there for a while.
不，我的意思是，有一段时间我开始在那里喝很多酒。
I have got into some confrontations with some less than polite people.
我与一些不太礼貌的人发生过一些冲突。
My temper is very short if somebody was to be impolite or rude to me.
如果有人对我不礼貌或粗鲁，我的脾气就会非常暴躁。
I don't go around looking at people and saying, I want to kill them.
我不会到处看着人们说，我想杀了他们。
But if I have a good excuse to kill somebody, I'd definitely take that opportunity.
但如果我有一个杀人的好借口，我肯定会抓住这个机会。
I would-- yeah, I think I would.
我会——是的，我想我会的。
I mean, is this what you're largely discussing with psychologists?
我的意思是，这就是您与心理学家主要讨论的内容吗？
I mean--
我的意思是——
No. Sarah Koenig Are they hearing this and having the reaction I'm having, or no?
不，莎拉·科尼格（Sarah Koenig）他们是否听到了这个并且有我的反应，或者没有？
They don't hear any of this.
他们什么也没听到。
They want to talk about my mother, for God's sakes.
看在上帝的份上，他们想谈论我的母亲。
Oh, you're not talking to them about this?
哦，你不和他们谈论这个吗？
I literally-- I tried to guide them there at first.
从字面上看，我一开始就试图引导他们到达那里。
But now, they just really want to talk about my relationship with my mother.
但现在，他们只是想谈论我和我母亲的关系。
Oh, for real-- like, you're not saying it as a cliche.
哦，说实话，你说的并不是陈词滥调。
Like, actually they're trying to talk about your mother.
就像，实际上他们想谈论你的母亲。
No, it's not a cliche.
不，这不是陈词滥调。
It's true.
这是真的。
This is absolutely true.
这是绝对正确的。
But it doesn't also sound like you're worried about this impulse in yourself.
但听起来你并不担心自己的这种冲动。
Why would I be worried?
我为什么会担心？
Sarah Koenig I don't know.
莎拉·柯尼格 我不知道。
Because what if you end up killing somebody?
因为如果你最终杀了人怎么办？
I don't know.
我不知道。
It just never crossed my mind that I wouldn't be able to justify it.
我从来没有想过我无法证明这一点。
I spoke to other men who trained with Adam and who also served in Afghanistan doing the same job as Adam's.
我采访了与亚当一起训练的其他人，他们也曾在阿富汗服役，从事与亚当相同的工作。
And I asked them if it was real, this mindset of wanting to kill just to kill.
我问他们这种为了杀人而杀人的心态是否真实存在。
And they all said, yeah.
他们都说，是的。
Maybe not to the extent Adam experienced it, but yeah.
也许没有达到亚当所经历的程度，但是是的。
They said it was common.
他们说这很常见。
They said things like, quote, "It's not pretty to talk about.
他们说过这样的话：“谈论这件事并不好听。
And nobody wants to hear that back home.
没有人想在家里听到这个。
But that's part of it." Another guy said, "I didn't join to go out and kill people.
但这是其中的一部分。”另一个人说：“我加入不是为了出去杀人。
But once you do the training, I don't know, it's almost like a job.
但一旦你接受了培训，我不知道，这几乎就像一份工作。
And your job is to kill people.
而你的工作就是杀人。
And you do want that experience."
而你确实想要那种经历。”
I talked to a psychiatric expert on war trauma and PTSD.
我与一位关于战争创伤和创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）的精神病学专家进行了交谈。
And he also agreed.
而他也同意了。
"This is true," he said.
“这是真的，”他说。
"This is a part of war that people like to ignore, the pleasure of killing.
“这是人们喜欢忽视的战争的一部分，即杀戮的乐趣。
Killing is our society's most basic prohibition.
杀戮是我们社会最基本的禁令。
So that's what military training is for," he said, "to get people to the point where they can cross that line."
这就是军事训练的目的，”他说，“让人们能够跨越那条线。”
Of course, the US military doesn't want sociopaths or would-be murderers in its ranks.
当然，美国军方不希望其队伍中出现反社会者或潜在的杀人犯。
Doctor Michael Matthews, a psychology professor at West Point who studies how soldiers react in dangerous situations, said in his experience, soldiers who truly think that way, who really just want to kill for killing's sake, those people are uncommon.
研究士兵在危险情况下如何反应的西点军校心理学教授迈克尔·马修斯博士说，根据他的经验，真正有这种想法、真正只想为杀戮而杀戮的士兵并不常见。
And if they do surface, he said, they should be screened and probably kicked out of the military, which Adam would agree with.
他说，如果他们真的出现，他们应该受到筛选，甚至可能被踢出军队，亚当会同意这一点。
But what Adam is saying is that there's a subtler thing that happens.
但亚当所说的是，发生了一件更微妙的事情。
There's some other class of people who aren't sociopaths but who go through military training, and the desire to kill is suddenly there.
还有一些其他阶层的人虽然不是反社会者，但接受过军事训练，突然就有杀人的欲望。
It seems natural to him that this happens, normal.
对他来说，发生这种事是很自然的，正常的。
But just because bloodlust is normal, that doesn't mean Adam thinks it's OK.
但仅仅因为嗜血是正常的，并不意味着亚当就认为这是可以的。
In fact, he thinks he shouldn't have been allowed to go to Afghanistan at all.
事实上，他认为他根本不应该被允许去阿富汗。
Sarah Koenig is one of the producers of our show.
莎拉·科尼格是我们节目的制片人之一。
[MUSIC - "GOOD GUYS AND BAD GUYS" BY CASPER VAN BEETHOVEN]
[音乐 - 卡斯珀·范·贝多芬的《好人与坏人》]
Our program was produced today by Brian Reed with Alex Blumberg, Ben Calhoun, Sarah Koenig, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
今天我们的节目由 Brian Reed 与 Alex Blumberg、Ben Calhoun、Sarah Koenig、Miki Meek、Jonathan Menjivar、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 共同制作。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Production help from Dana Chivvis and Allison Davis.
达纳·奇夫维斯 (Dana Chivvis) 和艾莉森·戴维斯 (Allison Davis) 为制作提供帮助。
Seth Lind is our operations director.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的运营总监。
Emily Condon is our production manager.
艾米丽·康登 (Emily Condon) 是我们的生产经理。
Elise Bergerson is our administrative assistant.
埃莉斯·伯格森是我们的行政助理。
Adrianne Mathiowetz runs our website.
阿德琳娜·马修韦茨 (Adrianne Mathiowetz) 负责运营我们的网站。
Research help from Michelle Harris.
米歇尔·哈里斯的研究帮助。
Music help from Damien Grey, from Rob Gettis.
达米安·格雷 (Damien Grey) 和罗布·盖蒂斯 (Rob Gettis) 提供音乐帮助。
Mike Birgilia was recorded at UCB East in Manhattan and Littlefield in Brooklyn.
Mike Birgilia 在曼哈顿的 UCB East 和布鲁克林的 Littlefield 录制。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website-- thisamericanlife.org.
[致谢] 我们的网站——thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
Thanks as always to our show's co-founder, Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们节目的联合创始人托里·马拉蒂亚 (Torey Malatia)。
You know, his new plastic surgery is-- I don't know.
你知道，他的新整形手术是——我不知道。
It's just at that awkward phase.
正处于那个尴尬的阶段。
Where your face doesn't move, but then your eyes pan side to side.
你的脸不动，但你的眼睛从一边扫到另一边。
I'm Ira Glass-- back next week with more stories of this American life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）——下周回来，带来更多关于美国生活的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。