509: It Says So Right Here - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #509 | October 24, 2014 509: It Says So Right Here Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 509 集 | 2014 年 10 月 24 日 509：这里就是这么说的 注意：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass A couple years ago, a guy named Lanail Hudson-- Lanail Thaddeus Hudson, actually-- goes to a government office in Jacksonville, Florida to get a new Florida state ID, and they ask him to wait.
序言 Ira Glass 几年前，一个名叫拉尼尔·哈德森（Lanail Hudson）的人——实际上是拉尼尔·撒迪厄斯·哈德森（Lanail Thaddeus Hudson）——去佛罗里达州杰克逊维尔的一家政府办公室领取新的佛罗里达州身份证，他们要求他稍等。
And then they call out a state trooper, because a man in Miami with the exact same name, Lanail Thaddeus Hudson, had gone to the authorities and flagged the name.
然后他们呼叫了一名州警，因为迈阿密的一名同名男子拉尼尔·撒迪厄斯·哈德森 (Lanail Thaddeus Hudson) 已经向当局举报了这个名字。
Said there had been identity theft.
说存在身份盗窃。
Said, somebody's got a fake driver's license under this name.
说，有人用这个名字拿到了假驾驶执照。
So the trooper shows up, and he's got to figure out what's going on.
所以警察出现了，他必须弄清楚发生了什么事。
And the guy walks up to him in the lobby and says, well, maybe we can straighten this out now.
那个人在大厅走到他面前说，好吧，也许我们现在可以解决这个问题。
Great.
伟大的。
So the trooper asks the guy for any proof of who he is.
因此，警察要求该男子提供任何证明他是谁的证据。
Here's the trooper, Richard Blanco.
这是士兵理查德·布兰科。
And he opens the backpack, and he starts pulling out all these identifications.
他打开背包，开始取出所有这些身份证明。
Just numerous IDs.
只是无数个ID。
The passport, social security card, 20 to 30 pieces of identification on him.
身上有护照、社保卡、20到30张身份证件。
There's a government-issued ID that lets him walk around the port in Jacksonville unescorted.
有一张政府颁发的身份证，可以让他在无人陪同的情况下在杰克逊维尔的港口散步。
There are two naval IDs that allow him onto Navy vessels.
有两个海军身份证允许他登上海军舰艇。
There's a birth certificate.
有出生证明。
You know, he's slinging all these identifications on the desk.
你知道，他把所有这些身份证明都扔在桌子上。
This is me.
这就是我。
This is who I am.
这就是我。
These documents, these IDs depicted his photograph.
这些文件、这些身份证上描绘了他的照片。
So then I had a little doubt in my mind.
于是我心里就产生了一点疑问。
Your doubt meaning what?
你的疑问意味着什么？
Richard Blanco This could be the true Lanail Hudson.
理查德·布兰科 这可能是真正的拉尼尔·哈德森。
He could be the victim.
他可能是受害者。
So he fingerprints the guy and runs it through the system, and sure enough, the fingerprints match the fingerprints on file for Lanail Hudson.
于是，他对这个人进行了指纹识别，并通过系统运行，果然，指纹与拉尼尔·哈德森档案中的指纹相符。
Whoever this is standing in front of them has been arrested all the way back in 1989 as Lanail Hudson.
无论站在他们面前的是谁，早在 1989 年就以拉尼尔·哈德森 (Lanail Hudson) 的身份被捕。
He's actually served in prison as Lanail Hudson.
他实际上以拉尼尔·哈德森的身份在监狱服刑。
But then Trooper Blanco gets the other Lanail Hudson on the phone-- the guy in Miami.
但随后布兰科警官给另一个拉尼尔·哈德森打电话——迈阿密的那个人。
That Lanail Hudson turns out to be a corrections officer down in Dade County, and that Lanail Hudson said that ever since his wallet was stolen back in 1989 with his driver's license and his social security card inside, he'd had problems.
拉尼尔·哈德森 (Lanail Hudson) 原来是戴德县 (Dade County) 的一名惩教官，拉尼尔·哈德森 (Lanail Hudson) 说，自从 1989 年他的钱包被偷，里面有他的驾照和社会保障卡后，他就遇到了问题。
He tells them--
他告诉他们——
This guy's taken my identity.
这家伙盗用了我的身份。
He's lived in my identity for 23 years, since 1989.
自 1989 年以来，他以我的身份生活了 23 年。
He's caused me all kind of grief.
他给我带来了各种悲伤。
My driver's license is suspended.
我的驾驶执照被吊销了。
He's cashed checks in my name.
他以我的名义兑现了支票。
He has children in my name.
他以我的名义有孩子。
On and on.
不断地。
At this point, Trooper Blanco strongly suspected the guy standing in front of him in Jacksonville was probably a fake, living under a stolen name.
此时，布兰科警官强烈怀疑杰克逊维尔站在他面前的那个人可能是个冒牌货，用盗用的名字生活。
But vexingly, the guy would not admit this, even after he was arrested.
但令人烦恼的是，即使他被捕后，该男子也不承认这一点。
At his job, with his wife and kids-- he had an 8-year-old and a 15-year-old at the time-- everybody knew him as Lanail Hudson.
在他的工作中，他带着妻子和孩子——当时他有一个 8 岁的孩子和一个 15 岁的孩子——每个人都知道他是拉尼尔·哈德森 (Lanail Hudson)。
In fact, when this went to trial, the guy from Jacksonville still insisted he was Lanail Hudson.
事实上，当这件事进入审判时，来自杰克逊维尔的那个人仍然坚称他是拉尼尔·哈德森。
His version was that he was Lanail Hudson, and that's all he's ever known himself to be is Lanail Hudson.
他的版本是，他是拉尼尔·哈德森，而他所知道的自己就是拉尼尔·哈德森。
And in his version of the story, the other guy is the criminal.
在他的故事版本中，另一个人是罪犯。
No, no. He didn't accuse the other guy of being a criminal.
不，不。他没有指控另一个人是罪犯。
He just insisted that he was the real Lanail Hudson.
他只是坚称自己是真正的拉尼尔·哈德森。
Today, we still don't know who he is, and he's been incarcerated since September 30, 2011.
今天，我们仍然不知道他是谁，他自 2011 年 9 月 30 日起就被监禁。
Well, today on our radio show, It Says So Right Here.
好吧，今天在我们的广播节目中，它就是这样说的。
We have stories where what is written on official papers in black and white can determine the rest of your life.
我们有一些故事，官方文件上白纸黑字写的内容可以决定你的余生。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.
这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
And this case right here is a good case in point about that.
这里的这个案例就是一个很好的例子。
After his trial, the man from Jacksonville-- he could no longer be Lanail Hudson, right?
经过审判后，这个来自杰克逊维尔的人——他不可能再是拉尼尔·哈德森了，对吧？
All of his IDs, his birth certificate-- all of that stuff was seized by the government.
他所有的身份证、出生证明——所有这些东西都被政府没收了。
He became basically a man with no paper trail at all.
他基本上变成了一个没有任何书面记录的人。
No documentation.
没有文档。
He's like a man without a country.
他就像一个没有祖国的人。
He had no identity.
他没有身份。
So, who was he?
那么，他是谁？
Well, we found his wife Rosemary, and she told us that she believes him when he says that Lanail Hudson is the only name he's ever known.
好吧，我们找到了他的妻子罗斯玛丽，她告诉我们，当他说拉尼尔·哈德森是他所知道的唯一名字时，她相信他。
She's always known him that way, since 1996.
自 1996 年以来，她一直都是这样认识他的。
Has never met his family, says he rarely talks about his past.
从未见过他的家人，他说他很少谈论他的过去。
When they had kids, she said, she suggested that he might take the kids down from Jacksonville to Miami, where he used to live, to meet his people, and he told her, no. It's too much heartache down there.
她说，当他们有了孩子时，她建议他可以带孩子们从杰克逊维尔到他曾经住过的迈阿密去见见他的人民，但他告诉她，不。那里有太多的心痛。
But she didn't know the details.
但具体细节她并不知道。
Trooper Blanco, meanwhile, says there is one clue about what could be his real name.
与此同时，布兰科警官表示，有一条线索可以证明他的真名。
There's a good possibility that it was Leroy Mayer or Meyer.
很有可能是勒罗伊·梅耶 (Leroy Mayer) 或迈耶 (Meyer)。
Those names show up on police paperwork on September 29, 1989, when he was arrested for four charges, including attempted murder and aggravated battery.
这些名字出现在 1989 年 9 月 29 日的警方文件上，当时他因四项指控被捕，包括谋杀未遂和严重殴打。
He's identified as Lanail Hudson in those police reports, but the paperwork also says that he sometimes goes by the name of Leroy Meyers or Leroy Mayers, and his nickname today is Leroy.
在这些警方报告中，他被确认为拉尼尔·哈德森 (Lanail Hudson)，但文件还显示，他有时会使用勒罗伊·迈耶斯 (Leroy Meyers) 或勒罗伊·梅耶斯 (Leroy Mayers) 的名字，而他今天的昵称是勒罗伊 (Leroy)。
That's the name his wife calls him.
他的妻子就是这么称呼他的。
During his trial, he explained that this way.
在审判期间，他是这样解释的。
He says, well, when I was a young man, I got involved in a fight, and I licked the guy pretty good.
他说，好吧，当我还是个年轻人的时候，我卷入了一场战斗，我把那家伙舔得很好。
I whipped him.
我鞭打了他。
And when I got done, all my friends call me Bad, Bad Leroy.
当我完成后，我所有的朋友都叫我坏人，坏勒罗伊。
Like the Jim Croce song?
喜欢吉姆·克罗斯的歌曲吗？
"Bad, Bad Leroy Brown"?
“坏，坏勒罗伊·布朗”？
[LAUGHING] Yeah.
[笑]是的。
Ira Glass And what's your read on this?
Ira Glass 您对此有何看法？
Like, what do you think is his real story?
比如，你认为他的真实故事是什么？
You know, I don't have proof, but I think he's a foreign national.
你知道，我没有证据，但我认为他是外国人。
He could be wanted for a crime, could be a fugitive from his country.
他可能因犯罪而被通缉，也可能成为逃亡者。
Even his wife thought he was from another country, but I couldn't prove that he was from another country, so he can't be deported unless you have proof.
连他的妻子都认为他来自另一个国家，但我无法证明他来自另一个国家，所以除非你有证据，否则不能将他驱逐出境。
And when you run Leroy Meyer or Leroy Mayer-- when you run down who that might be, do you see someone of his age with a criminal record or anything like that?
当你管理 Leroy Meyer 或 Leroy Mayer 时——当你查明可能是谁时，你是否看到与他同龄的人有犯罪记录或类似的情况？
Nothing came back to Leroy Meyer or Mayer.
Leroy Meyer 或 Mayer 没有得到任何反馈。
We could find nothing.
我们什么也没找到。
He went to prison as John Doe, so he never told us who he was.
他以无名氏的身份入狱，所以他从未告诉我们他是谁。
And the real trick is once he's released from his 10-year sentence, who's he going to be when he gets out of jail or out of prison?
真正的难题是，一旦他刑满释放10年，出狱或出狱后他会是谁？
That was a concern of the judge.
这是法官关心的问题。
Who will you be when you're released from prison?
当你出狱后你会成为谁？
What will be your identity?
你的身份是什么？
You think if I ran him down now and asked him, he would still insist that he's Lanail?
你认为如果我现在跑去问他，他还会坚持说他是拉内尔吗？
You know what?
你知道吗？
I'd like to invite you to do that.
我想邀请你这样做。
I'd like to invite you to go and interview him and see if he'd grant an interview, and see what he would say.
我想邀请你去采访他，看看他是否接受采访，看看他会说什么。
Hello?
你好？
Ira Glass Yes, hi.
艾拉·格拉斯 是的，嗨。
Is this John Doe?
这是约翰·多伊吗？
Um, yes.
嗯，是的。
I guess according to the state, I am.
我想根据国家的说法，我是。
I reached the man that I suppose I'm going to call John Doe at the Federal Correctional Institution in Jesup, Georgia.
我在佐治亚州杰瑟普的联邦惩教所找到了一个我想称之为约翰·多伊的人。
I asked him what his real name was, the one he was born to.
我问他他的真名是什么，他出生时的名字。
Lanail Hudson, and this is the only name I've ever had, the only name I've ever known.
拉尼尔·哈德森，这是我唯一的名字，也是我所知道的唯一的名字。
I'm dubbed John Doe at this point.
此时我被称为约翰·多伊。
I hate when people call me.
我讨厌别人打电话给我。
They don't have the decency to say, well, call me Mr. Doe.
他们没有礼貌地说，好吧，叫我多伊先生吧。
John Doe.
约翰·多伊.
To me, it represents a nobody, and this seems unreal.
对我来说，它代表了一个无名小卒，这似乎不真实。
Now, the other Lanail Hudson, the man in Miami, he has family members.
现在，另一个拉尼尔·哈德森，迈阿密的男人，他有家人。
He has school records from when he was a little boy.
他有他小时候的学校记录。
If this was your name, why not bring those to your trial to prove it?
如果这是你的名字，为什么不把这些带到你的审判中来证明这一点呢？
I couldn't really-- you know, I didn't have a case.
我真的不能——你知道，我没有案子。
He had a mother that came in and said, this is my son, and a dad that said that.
他有一位母亲进来说，这是我的儿子，还有一位父亲也这么说。
And I had no one to say that, and I think that was the turning point.
没有人这么说，我认为那是一个转折点。
I don't know who my parents are.
我不知道我的父母是谁。
I don't know if I have any siblings.
我不知道我是否有兄弟姐妹。
At his trial, he said he was homeschooled.
在审判中，他说他是在家接受教育的。
That's why there were no school records.
这就是为什么没有学校记录。
He said he was raised by a woman who's now deceased named Gertrude Hudson, who told him when he was 12 that she wasn't his real mom.
他说，他是由一位名叫格特鲁德·哈德森 (Gertrude Hudson) 的女士抚养长大的，这位女士现已去世，她在他 12 岁时告诉他，她不是他的亲生母亲。
And he said in court, and also on our phone call, that all the other paperwork and photos from his childhood were burned by a girlfriend in 1985 after they had a fight.
他在法庭上以及我们的电话中表示，他童年的所有其他文件和照片都被女友在 1985 年吵架后烧毁了。
And that was the last time that I really had anything really tangible to reflect of my past.
那是我最后一次真正有任何切实的东西来反映我的过去。
I still don't have any of those things.
我仍然没有这些东西。
Can you see how when the prosecution looks at that, they say, well, that looks very convenient.
你能看到当检方如何看待这一点时，他们说，嗯，这看起来很方便。
That looks very suspicious.
这看起来非常可疑。
Well, I don't know how it would.
嗯，我不知道会怎么样。
I'm telling the truth as it is, what had happened.
我说的是事实，发生了什么事。
My perception of how it looked didn't conceive in my mind.
我对它的外观的看法并没有在我的脑海中构思。
I'm just explaining what had happened in my past.
我只是在解释我过去发生的事情。
I came out of that conversation still wondering who he was.
谈话结束后，我仍然想知道他是谁。
So here at our radio show, we set out on a search.
因此，在我们的广播节目中，我们开始了搜索。
We called the church where he said he'd been baptized in Miami.
我们打电话给他说他在迈阿密受洗的教堂。
Found nothing.
什么也没找到。
Looked for the woman who he said burned his stuff in 1985.
寻找他所说的 1985 年烧毁他东西的女人。
Zilch on that one, too.
对此也一无所知。
Then we saw in his police records that the attempted murder and a bunch of other incidents in 1989 all happened at one house.
然后我们在他的警方记录中看到，1989年的谋杀未遂和其他一系列事件都发生在一所房子里。
And it named one of the people who lived there, and we found her.
它提到了住在那里的一个人的名字，我们找到了她。
He used to date my sister, but she's dead now.
他曾经和我妹妹约会过，但她现在已经死了。
Used to date my sister.
曾经和我姐姐约会。
This is Martha Rolle.
这是玛莎·罗尔。
She says she knew him for a year, year and a half.
她说她认识他一年半了。
Did you ever hear the name Lanail Hudson?
你听说过拉尼尔·哈德森这个名字吗？
Did he ever call himself Lanail Hudson?
他曾自称拉尼尔·哈德森吗？
No. I don't remember that.
不，我不记得了。
Ira Glass What name did you know him by?
艾拉·格拉斯 你认识他的名字是什么？
Leroy.
勒罗伊.
Leroy May-- Meyers.
勒罗伊·梅——迈耶斯。
I don't know which one it is, but Leroy was Mayers.
我不知道是哪一位，但勒罗伊就是梅耶斯。
I knew him by that.
我就这样认识了他。
I don't know any other name.
我不知道还有什么名字。
And where was he from?
他来自哪里？
Martha Rolle I don't know.
玛莎·罗尔 我不知道。
I think he was from some kind of island.
我认为他来自某个岛屿。
I don't know if it's Barbados, or somewhere, but he's not from here.
我不知道是巴巴多斯还是其他地方，但他不是这里人。
He's not from here.
他不是这里人。
He had an accent.
他有口音。
I have to say, 10 years later, his accent's pretty faint.
不得不说，十年过去了，他的口音已经很淡了。
He's gotten rid of his accent.
他已经改掉了他的口音。
Oh my goodness.
哦，我的天啊。
He sounded to me almost like Jamaican, but not Jamaican.
我觉得他听起来几乎像牙买加人，但又不是牙买加人。
[INAUDIBLE] Leroy, he was from Trinidad.
[听不清] Leroy，他来自特立尼达。
That's where he said he was from, Trinidad.
他说他来自那里，特立尼达。
This is Martha's brother, Jonathan Marshall.
这是玛莎的兄弟乔纳森·马歇尔。
He also never heard Leroy use the name Lanail Hudson.
他也从未听说勒罗伊使用过拉内尔·哈德森这个名字。
I used to talk to him all the time.
我以前一直和他说话。
He was staying at the church right in the back of my house.
他住在我家后面的教堂里。
He used to go with my sister, and him and my sister used to fight a lot.
他以前和我姐姐一起去，他和我姐姐经常吵架。
My sister was on drugs and everything, and we all tried to tell him not to deal with my sister, because she was HIV-positive and everything like that.
我姐姐吸毒等等，我们都试图告诉他不要和我姐姐打交道，因为她是艾滋病毒阳性等等。
He really wasn't a bad guy.
他确实不是一个坏人。
My sister hit him in the top of the head one time with a clawed hammer and busted his head open.
有一次，我姐姐用一把带爪的锤子敲击了他的头顶，把他的头撞开了。
I took him out to the hospital, and he laid his head all on my shoulder, and we were just crying and all that type of stuff, and I just was constantly telling him to leave the girl alone.
我带他去医院，他把头靠在我的肩膀上，我们只是哭，诸如此类的事情，我只是不断地告诉他别管那个女孩。
But he wouldn't do it.
但他不会这么做。
Two weeks after his sister hit Leroy with a hammer, after she told him not to come around anymore, Leroy was lurking outside the house looking in the windows, and Jonathan went outside to shoo him away, and Leroy shot him.
两周后，他的姐姐用锤子打了勒罗伊，并告诉他不要再过来了，勒罗伊正潜伏在屋外向窗户里看，乔纳森走到外面把他赶走，勒罗伊开枪射杀了他。
Four or five bullets missed.
四五颗子弹没打中。
One hit him in the back.
一个人打了他的后背。
That bullet is still inside him.
那颗子弹还在他体内。
That shooting is the attempted murder charge that Leroy racked up.
那次枪击事件是勒罗伊提出的谋杀未遂指控。
And when the police arrested him for it, this is one of the first times that they booked and processed this guy who everybody called Leroy as Lanail Hudson.
当警方因此逮捕他时，这是他们第一次对这个人进行登记和处理，每个人都称勒罗伊为拉尼尔·哈德森。
This is the moment where it seems like he's making the transition from one name to the other.
这一刻，他似乎正在从一个名字转变为另一个名字。
Jonathan said that if I wanted more information about the guy, I should call the pastor at the church near his house-- the one where Leroy lived.
乔纳森说，如果我想了解这个人的更多信息，我应该打电话给他家附近教堂的牧师——勒罗伊住的那个教堂。
Reverend Scott.
斯科特牧师。
Elder Scott.
斯科特长老。
He'll be able to give you all the information that you need.
他将为您提供您需要的所有信息。
When I reached Pastor Selwyn Scott and his wife Thomasina, they didn't want to record a conversation for the radio, but they totally remembered Leroy.
当我联系塞尔温·斯科特牧师和他的妻子托马西娜时，他们不想为收音机录制对话，但他们完全记得勒罗伊。
They said a member of their church found him living on the street when he was 19 or 20.
他们说，当他 19 岁或 20 岁的时候，他们教会的一名成员发现他住在街上。
They put him up in the trailer behind the church for maybe a year.
他们把他放在教堂后面的拖车里大概一年了。
Pastor Scott talked to Leroy a lot, and say that Leroy told him that he was from Guyana.
斯科特牧师和勒罗伊聊了很多，并说勒罗伊告诉他他来自圭亚那。
Conveniently for us, Pastor Scott has lived in Trinidad, Barbados, and Guyana, and said that Leroy's accent was definitely from Guyana.
方便我们的是，斯科特牧师曾住在特立尼达、巴巴多斯和圭亚那，他说勒罗伊的口音肯定来自圭亚那。
And in fact, though most of his arrest records do not list a country of origin or list the United States as the country of origin, one of them, from September 21, 1989, lists his country of origin as Guyana.
事实上，尽管他的大部分逮捕记录都没有列出原籍国或将美国列为原籍国，但其中一份从1989年9月21日起，将他的原籍国列为圭亚那。
Without any prompting, Mrs. Scott brought up the name Lanail Hudson.
没有任何提示，斯科特夫人就提到了拉尼尔·哈德森这个名字。
Actually, she wasn't sure if it was Lionel or Leonard or Lanail, but she said that Leroy found a wallet with the ID in it-- a name like Lanail Hudson-- and she said they told him to mail it back.
事实上，她不确定是莱昂内尔、伦纳德还是拉尼尔，但她说勒罗伊发现了一个钱包，里面有身份证——名字像拉尼尔·哈德森——她说他们让他把它寄回来。
And after Leroy left the neighborhood, she said that she heard that the young man whose ID it was was dead, and that Leroy had assumed the young man's identity.
勒罗伊离开小区后，她说她听说身份证上的那个年轻人已经死了，而勒罗伊冒用了这个年轻人的身份。
I let her know that the young man is still very much alive-- no longer perhaps so young-- and I talked to him.
我让她知道这个年轻人还活着——也许不再那么年轻了——然后我和他谈了话。
Yeah.
是的。
Lanail Thaddeus Hudson It wasn't too much.
Lanail Thaddeus Hudson 这并不算太多。
I would say maybe $6,000 or $7,000, he cost me.
我想说也许是 6,000 美元或 7,000 美元，他让我付出了代价。
This is Lanail Hudson, the one that I think is the real one.
这是拉尼尔·哈德森，我认为是真正的那个。
The one who lives in Miami and works for the Department of Corrections.
他住在迈阿密，在惩教署工作。
If the price tag on 23 years of identity theft seems shockingly low-- just $6,000, after all-- you should know that that price does not count endless hours on the phone straightening out his credit.
如果 23 年身份盗窃的价格看起来低得惊人——毕竟只有 6,000 美元——你应该知道，这个价格还不包括没完没了地打电话理清信用的时间。
He says it took years to convince the IRS that he didn't owe them money.
他说花了好几年的时间才说服国税局他不欠他们钱。
They wanted to garnish his wages for a while.
他们想暂时扣留他的工资。
He says that Leroy, or John Doe, or whatever it is that we're calling him, would buy cars and not make payments, rent cars and not return them, leave hospital bills unpaid.
他说勒罗伊，或者约翰·多伊，或者不管我们怎么称呼他，会买车而不付款，租车而不归还，不支付医院账单。
The real Lanail was careful to pay his bills on time and play by the rules.
真正的拉内尔非常小心地按时支付账单并遵守规则。
But he couldn't buy a house, because his credit was ruined.
但他买不起房子，因为他的信用被毁了。
I believe the most frustrating one-- I believe-- let's see.
我相信最令人沮丧的——我相信——让我们看看。
Let me think.
让我想想。
I believe the companies like Sprint and the hospital.
我相信像斯普林特和医院这样的公司。
These are the companies that are so hard to prove, because they just want their money.
这些公司很难证明，因为他们只是想要钱。
And even though they know this person is a criminal, they know this person stole your identity, but I just want the money.
即使他们知道这个人是罪犯，他们知道这个人窃取了你的身份，但我只是想要钱。
I'm like, well, that is not me.
我想，好吧，那不是我。
I don't have a phone.
我没有电话。
I'm proving to you that.
我正在向你证明这一点。
They don't care about that.
他们不关心这个。
On top of all that, he had an attempted murder charge on his name, which was kind of a problem whenever he got pulled over by a cop or applied for a job.
最重要的是，他的名字还被指控谋杀未遂，每当他被警察拦下或申请工作时，这都是一个问题。
Here's what I think we can accurately say about Leroy/John Doe.
我认为我们可以准确地评价勒罗伊/约翰·多伊。
It seems clear he had some kind of rough childhood, lived on the streets.
显然他有过一段坎坷的童年，住在街上。
Went to prison for shooting his girlfriend's brother, and when he got out in the early '90s, he used Lanail Hudson's good name to start a new life.
因枪杀女友弟弟而入狱，90年代初出狱后，他利用拉尼尔·哈德森的好名声开始了新的生活。
Moved to Jacksonville, found a church, met his wife Rosemary there, and told her that he wanted to start over.
搬到杰克逊维尔，找到了一座教堂，在那里遇见了他的妻子罗斯玛丽，并告诉她他想重新开始。
She says she could see that he'd been broken and thrown away by other people, and fell in love with him.
她说她看到他被其他人伤害和抛弃，并爱上了他。
She said he was sweet, quiet, a good dad.
她说他很可爱、安静，是个好爸爸。
They had a house.
他们有一所房子。
Trooper Blanco saw his pay stubs.
布兰科警官看到了他的工资单。
Said he made good money.
说他赚了很多钱。
As best as we can tell from police records, his violent criminal behavior mostly stops by 1993.
据我们从警方记录中可以得知，他的暴力犯罪行为到 1993 年基本停止。
That said, it does seem that if he thought he could get away with not paying a bill, he would try.
也就是说，如果他认为自己可以不付账单，他似乎确实会尝试。
That seems to have continued as he built his new life.
当他建立新生活时，这种情况似乎仍在继续。
Talking to him, I think the way that he sees it is he didn't steal.
和他交谈时，我认为他认为他没有偷窃。
He didn't run up bills on someone else's credit card.
他没有用别人的信用卡欠下账单。
I don't think he ever considered how he might be hurting the Lanail Hudson who lived down in Miami.
我认为他从未考虑过他可能会如何伤害住在迈阿密的拉尼尔·哈德森。
I do believe that he wants to get back to his family and kids when he gets out of prison.
我确实相信，当他出狱后，他想回到家人和孩子身边。
And so he's stuck as John Doe, because admitting that he's Leroy or somebody else probably does get him deported.
所以他只能扮演约翰·多伊（John Doe），因为承认自己是勒罗伊（Leroy）或其他人可能确实会让他被驱逐出境。
Act Two.
第二幕。
What are you doing for the test of your life?
为了人生的考验，你在做什么？
The woman in this next story is waiting on a piece of paper that-- I think it's not an exaggeration to put it this way-- is going to determine how she will spend the rest of her life.
下一个故事中的女人正在等待一张纸——我认为这样说并不夸张——它将决定她将如何度过余生。
The paper that she's waiting on is a test result-- a genetic test-- for Huntington's disease.
她正在等待的文件是亨廷顿舞蹈症的测试结果——基因测试。
Huntington's disease is a progressive brain disorder.
亨廷顿舞蹈症是一种进行性脑部疾病。
There's a wide range of symptoms, but in the worst cases, people who have it can end up losing physical control of their bodies, sort of like Parkinson's disease.
症状多种多样，但在最坏的情况下，患有这种疾病的人最终可能会失去对身体的控制，有点像帕金森病。
They can also have mental symptoms that are like Alzheimer's or schizophrenia.
他们还可能出现阿尔茨海默氏症或精神分裂症等精神症状。
If you have a parent with Huntington's disease, you have a 50/50 chance of getting it yourself.
如果您的父母患有亨廷顿舞蹈症，您自己就有 50/50 的机会患上亨廷顿舞蹈病。
That's the situation in this story.
这就是这个故事中的情况。
A woman named Kelly-- her mom has Huntington's.
一位名叫凯利的女士——她的妈妈患有亨廷顿舞蹈症。
Kelly is the youngest of six sisters, and she decided to get tested.
凯利是六姐妹中最小的一个，她决定接受检查。
She kept an audio diary about what happened.
她记录了所发生的事情的音频日记。
It's 8:30 in the morning.
现在是早上 8 点 30 分。
I have an hour and a half until my results, and I'm getting ready.
距离结果还有一个半小时，我正在做好准备。
I feel nervous.
我感到紧张。
I'm nervous today.
我今天很紧张。
I was a little nervous last night.
昨晚我有点紧张。
It started to kick in about midnight, and today, I'm like-- I can't explain it.
它在午夜左右开始出现，今天，我无法解释它。
It's like butterflies.
就像蝴蝶一样。
Like Kayla said, it's like Christmas, almost, except when you open your present, it's like the [BLEEP] present you ever got.
就像凯拉说的，这几乎就像圣诞节，除了当你打开礼物时，它就像你收到的[BLEEP]礼物。
Or it could be the best.
或者它可能是最好的。
So I guess it's kind of like that ugh in your stomach.
所以我想这有点像你肚子里的呃。
I'm holding us up.
我拖着我们。
I'm holding us up.
我拖着我们。
I'm cooking breakfast, and we've got to leave.
我正在做早餐，我们得走了。
I'm 28 years old.
我今年28岁了。
I live in Levittown, PA.
我住在宾夕法尼亚州莱维敦。
I live here with my fiancee, Kyle.
我和我的未婚妻凯尔住在这里。
I'm trying to avoid this.
我正在努力避免这种情况。
Kelly My mom has Huntington's disease.
凯利 我妈妈患有亨廷顿氏舞蹈症。
Her father had Huntington's disease.
她的父亲患有亨廷顿舞蹈症。
I have five sisters.
我有五个姐妹。
I would say right now, there's at least two of them that show signs.
我现在想说的是，至少有两个有迹象。
And I've decided to get tested now.
我决定现在就接受测试。
I am here with my sister, and we're going to ask her a few questions.
我和我姐姐在这里，我们要问她一些问题。
My oldest sister, Cathy, who is 42 years old, was the one that took care of my mother when she started to get very sick.
我的大姐凯茜今年 42 岁，当我母亲病重时，她负责照顾她。
She's showing symptoms of the disease.
她出现了这种疾病的症状。
How are you feeling now?
你现在感觉怎么样？
Good.
好的。
Kelly How did you feel before?
凯莉 你之前感觉如何？
We'll say a month ago.
我们会说一个月前。
A month ago?
一个月前？
Horrible.
可怕。
It feels like your mind is going.
感觉就像你的思绪在飞翔。
It's just, you try to think, and your body doesn't allow it to think.
只是，你试图思考，但你的身体不允许它思考。
It's like, you can't remember.
就好像，你不记得了。
And you look at something, and you're like, OK, I know how to do this.
当你看到一些东西时，你会想，好吧，我知道该怎么做。
Like, I know it, I know it, I know it, I know it.
就像，我知道，我知道，我知道，我知道。
And you can't do it.
而你做不到。
Your brain is just not working.
你的大脑不工作了。
And you feel like you're dying, as someone would describe it.
正如有人会描述的那样，你感觉自己快要死了。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
And then it's kind of like, you wake up confused and try to-- you know you have to go to the bathroom, but you can't make it fast enough.
然后有点像，你醒来时感到困惑，并尝试——你知道你必须去洗手间，但你速度不够快。
So then you would pee yourself when that happened?
那么当发生这种情况时你会尿尿吗？
That happened.
那件事发生了。
Yeah.
是的。
That happened recently.
这是最近发生的事。
My biggest fear is like, what if your mind is trapped inside this body that can't move?
我最大的恐惧是，如果你的思想被困在这个无法移动的身体里怎么办？
That's why I kept telling everybody.
这就是为什么我一直告诉大家。
I was doing the one word thing, and it was kind of--
我正在做一个词的事情，有点——
What was your one word?
你的一句话是什么？
Because Mommy's was funny, funny, funny.
因为妈妈的故事很有趣，很有趣，很有趣。
Funny, yeah.
有趣的是，是的。
Mine was don't know what to do.
我的就是不知道该怎么办。
Like, don't know, don't know, I don't know.
就像，不知道，不知道，我不知道。
That's-- don't know.
那是——不知道。
Don't know.
不知道。
That's why I can't go see Mommy.
这就是为什么我不能去看妈妈。
Remember?
记住？
I just can't go, because I just get--
我就是不能去，因为我只是——
Psychologically messed up.
心理已经乱了
Cathy Yeah.
凯茜 是的。
It just kills me.
这简直要了我的命。
I mean, from what I hear, my mom was actually getting sick when she was pregnant with me.
我的意思是，据我所知，我妈妈在怀我的时候实际上生病了。
So she was pretty much sick from when I was born.
所以从我出生的时候起她就病得很厉害。
I think I was 15 when she went to the nursing home.
我记得她去疗养院的时候我才15岁。
So it's been a while.
所以已经有一段时间了。
And she's-- I can't even explain it.
而她——我什至无法解释。
It's like, she's very atrophied.
就好像，她萎缩得很厉害。
Her arms are stuck up.
她的双臂高举着。
Her legs are basically stuck.
她的腿基本上被卡住了。
Like, she doesn't move at all.
就像，她根本没有动。
She does nothing.
她什么也不做。
Like, the best thing you could say is just a shell sitting there.
就像，你能说的最好的事情就是坐在那里的只是一个空壳。
No kid should ever have to see the [BLEEP] that went down in my house when we were kids.
任何孩子都不应该看到我们小时候在我家里发生的[BLEEP]。
Like, crazy stuff.
就像，疯狂的东西。
I came home one day and everything was in plastic bags.
有一天我回到家，发现所有东西都装在塑料袋里。
Everything was contaminated, and disgusting, and she was allergic to everything.
一切都被污染了，令人恶心，而且她对一切都过敏。
I'd come home and be like, what the hell?
我回到家就会想，到底怎么回事？
She's nuts again.
她又疯了。
My friends would come over and say to me, like, your mom's nuts.
我的朋友们会过来对我说，比如，你妈妈疯了。
What's going on?
这是怎么回事？
Yeah, I know.
是的，我知道。
And I was embarrassed.
我很尴尬。
I was actually mad at her.
我其实很生她的气。
I had terrible feelings towards her.
我对她有很糟糕的感觉。
Even when she went to assisted living, she'd call like 80 times a day.
即使她去接受辅助生活，她每天也会打大约 80 次电话。
Stop calling!
别再打电话了！
And I'd hang up on her.
我会挂断她的电话。
And I was so mean to her.
而且我对她太刻薄了。
But I didn't have that understanding of what it was at all.
但我根本不了解它是什么。
So now another question I want to ask.
现在我想问另一个问题。
Why haven't you ever gotten tested?
为什么你从来没有接受过测试？
Why didn't you think, even now-- what was your biggest fear?
为什么即使是现在，你也不想想——你最大的恐惧是什么？
The insurance aspect of it?
保险方面呢？
Insurance.
保险。
The denial of wasting my life.
否认浪费我的生命。
Like, you feel like you didn't do what you should have done.
就像，你觉得你没有做你应该做的事情。
Lived.
住过。
Yeah.
是的。
For me, it's I don't know if I'll be liberated if they tell me I have it, because like you said, you think about it every day.
对我来说，我不知道如果他们告诉我我有它，我是否会获得解放，因为就像你说的，你每天都在想它。
And if you know you have it, like you said, I'm going to live balls to the wall.
如果你知道你拥有它，就像你说的，我会把球射到墙上。
I'm going to do everything.
我会做一切事情。
I'm going to make a list and do everything I want to do.
我将列一个清单并做我想做的一切。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
None of us should be having kids.
我们谁都不应该生孩子。
For me it's moreso the care of the child.
对我来说，更重要的是照顾孩子。
Now, I don't want my kid to go through what I went through.
现在，我不想让我的孩子经历我所经历的事情。
I had you to raise me, thank God, but with Mommy, I saw the most terrible part of someone that was supposed to be my mother.
感谢上帝，有你抚养我长大，但在妈妈的陪伴下，我看到了本应是我母亲的人身上最可怕的一面。
That's why I didn't want Kayla taking care of me, because I did it with Mommy.
这就是为什么我不想让凯拉照顾我，因为我是和妈妈一起做的。
Yeah, it's so hard.
是啊，太难了。
Like, with Kayla-- so if Kayla has it, what would you feel?
就像凯拉一样——如果凯拉拥有它，你会有什么感觉？
Like, [BLEEP].
就像，[哔]。
Yeah, I'd feel guilty.
是的，我会感到内疚。
Kayla I don't feel like you have it, Kel.
凯拉，我不觉得你拥有它，凯尔。
I hope not.
我希望不会。
Kayla I don't.
凯拉 我不知道。
I don't think you do.
我不认为你这样做。
My niece Kayla's here with me today, because she's going to come with me to come get my results.
我的侄女凯拉今天和我在一起，因为她要和我一起去取结果。
I hope I'm right.
我希望我是对的。
Kelly It's a flattering thought.
凯利：这是一个令人愉快的想法。
My name is Kayla.
我叫凯拉。
I'm 21 years old.
我今年21岁。
My mom is Cathy.
我的妈妈是凯茜。
I recently got tested for Huntington's, and I was told that I definitely have the gene, just not displaying signs yet.
我最近接受了亨廷顿舞蹈症检测，结果告诉我，我肯定有这种基因，只是还没有表现出迹象。
Like, physical signs.
比如，身体迹象。
I decided not to tell my mom, because I don't want her to feel guilty for me having it.
我决定不告诉妈妈，因为我不想让她因为我有这件事而感到内疚。
She's already depressed and on edge, and I wouldn't want to push her over.
她已经很沮丧，很紧张，我不想把她推倒。
I literally don't have any family support besides Kelly.
除了凯利之外，我真的没有任何家人的支持。
Like, Mom or Dad's side.
比如，妈妈或爸爸的身边。
Kelly is the only person I have who understands it that is behind me on it.
凯利是我身边唯一理解并支持我的人。
I haven't told anybody, really, in my family besides Kelly.
事实上，除了凯利之外，我没有告诉过家里的任何人。
We've talked about it our whole lives, and I don't want her to have it.
我们一生都在谈论这件事，我不想让她拥有它。
But it's like, one part of me that if Kelly has it, I'm not alone.
但就好像我的一部分，如果凯利有它，我并不孤单。
So I have really mixed feelings on it.
所以我对此的感受真的很复杂。
OK, we're in the backyard just hanging out.
好吧，我们在后院闲逛。
Kayla's on her fifth cigarette.
凯拉已经吸了第五支烟了。
Clearly she's more nervous than me.
显然她比我更紧张。
Actually, since I found out my results, I feel like I smoke more.
事实上，自从我知道结果后，我感觉自己抽烟更多了。
I really do, because now I'm like, screw it.
我真的这么做，因为现在我想，管它呢。
Before, people were always like, oh, it's so unhealthy.
以前，人们总是说，哦，这太不健康了。
You'll get cancer.
你会得癌症。
And what more can happen, you know what I mean?
还会发生什么，你明白我的意思吗？
The first thing I wanted to do after I got my test results was I wanted to order food and watch stand-up.
得到测试结果后我想做的第一件事就是点餐并观看单口喜剧。
And that's what I did the whole night.
这就是我整个晚上所做的事情。
Ate pizza.
吃了披萨。
But I just treated it as another night, you know?
但我只是把它当作另一个夜晚，你知道吗？
I booked the day, because I knew that I wouldn't be sitting around.
我预订了这一天，因为我知道我不会坐着。
And I have a wedding shower Saturday at church, because now we have to start going to the church for the wedding.
周六我在教堂举行婚礼送礼会，因为现在我们必须开始去教堂参加婚礼。
And then dinner plans with his mom, so I kind of booked the entire weekend to make sure that I don't have a second by myself to cry.
然后计划和他妈妈一起吃晚饭，所以我预定了整个周末，以确保我没有时间独自哭泣。
All right, here we go.
好吧，我们开始吧。
We're getting in the car and getting ready to leave.
我们上了车，准备出发。
Do you want me to brush your hair?
要我给你梳头发吗？
That's another thing.
那是另一回事了。
If I do get sick, just make sure you do my hair.
如果我生病了，请确保你帮我做头发。
Like, brush my hair and don't cut it short.
比如，梳理我的头发，不要剪短。
I don't want short hair like my mom.
我不想像我妈妈一样留短发。
They did that to my mom.
他们对我妈妈这么做了。
I hate short hair.
我讨厌短发。
You don't have to do the makeup thing.
你不必做化妆的事情。
Unless you want to.
除非你愿意。
Like, when you take me out to dinner.
比如，当你带我出去吃饭时。
See, I'm cool.
看吧，我很酷。
Just stick me in a nursing home.
就让我待在疗养院吧。
I'll be fine.
我会没事的。
We'll put you in one of those nice homes down there.
我们会把你安置在下面那些漂亮的房子之一里。
Yeah.
是的。
Kayla We'll settle you in nicely.
凯拉 我们会很好地安置你。
We'll make--
我们会让——
I'll make friends.
我会交朋友。
I'll make friends.
我会交朋友。
My mom made friends.
我妈妈交了朋友。
She loved the assisted living place.
她喜欢辅助生活的地方。
Remember she had a boyfriend there?
还记得她在那里有过男朋友吗？
Yeah.
是的。
That's what I'm saying.
这就是我所说的。
I get to just chill out and play checkers all day.
我可以放松一下，整天玩跳棋。
Sounds good.
听起来不错。
Probably you're gonna be a little shaky.
也许你会有点动摇。
Nobody's gonna want to play with you.
没有人愿意和你一起玩。
Probably shouldn't play Jenga.
可能不应该玩 Jenga。
[LAUGHING] That's terrible.
[笑]那太可怕了。
All right.
好的。
I've got to go in there.
我得进去那里。
What time is it?
现在是几奌？
Wait.
等待。
[BLEEP] It's getting real now.
[BLEEP] 现在它变得真实了。
OK, it's 10:30, and we're about to go into Shayna's office for my results.
好的，现在是 10:30，我们要去 Shayna 的办公室查看我的结果。
Have you been nervous, or pretty chill, or--
你是否感到紧张，或者很冷，或者——
You do?
你知道吗？
OK.
好的。
Do you want me to just cut right to the chase?
你想让我直接切入正题吗？
I don't know about that.
我对此一无所知。
Shayna OK.
谢娜 好的。
Well, I'm happy to do that.
嗯，我很高兴这样做。
Unless you guys wanted to talk a little bit--
除非你们想谈谈——
No, I want to get to it.
不，我想做到这一点。
Kelly No, we just want to know.
凯莉 不，我们只是想知道。
You just want to know.
你只是想知道。
OK, I was going to say, some people want to have a conversation about what would happen.
好吧，我想说，有些人想就将会发生的事情进行对话。
OK, great.
好的，太好了。
Your results were normal.
你的结果是正常的。
You're not going to have Huntington's disease.
你不会患亨廷顿舞蹈病。
So it's not what you were expecting, I know.
所以我知道这不是你所期待的。
See, I told you.
看，我告诉过你了。
Kelly [CRYING] Oh my god.
凯莉[哭]天哪。
[CRYING] Oh my god.
[哭泣]天啊。
I'm sorry.
对不起。
It's OK.
没关系。
Kelly I can't even believe this.
凯利 我什至不敢相信这一点。
Like, are you sure?
比如，你确定吗？
I'll show you the paper.
我给你看那张纸。
I can show you the words.
我可以给你看这些话。
But yes, you inherited both normal alleles.
但是，是的，您继承了两个正常的等位基因。
Right there, the negatives.
就在那里，负面的。
So negative is normal.
所以阴性是正常的。
[CRYING] Can we have that?
[哭]我们可以要那个吗？
Shayna Absolutely.
莎娜 绝对。
I do need to make photocopies, but you can absolutely have it.
我确实需要复印，但你绝对可以拥有。
[SNIFFLE] You mind if I just step outside?
[抽鼻子]你介意我出去一下吗？
No, go ahead.
不，继续吧。
That's fine.
没关系。
Shayna If you go to the right a little bit, you can have some privacy in that space.
Shayna 如果你向右走一点，你就可以在那个空间里拥有一些隐私。
Yeah.
是的。
And a lot of people think that just normal is easy, and everything's good, but it's complicated, you know?
很多人认为正常很容易，一切都很好，但其实很复杂，你知道吗？
It's really complicated.
这真的很复杂。
The good thing is, at least I'll be able to take care of her.
庆幸的是，至少我可以照顾她。
Yeah.
是的。
Kelly But I don't want her to be alone.
凯莉：但我不想让她独自一人。
It probably wasn't a good idea for her to be here, now that I think about it.
现在我想起来，她来这里可能不是一个好主意。
Like, I wanted her for her support, but then it seems like she's probably going to be upset about it.
就像，我希望得到她的支持，但似乎她可能会对此感到不安。
Yeah.
是的。
Kelly It says, result negative.
凯利说，结果呈阴性。
This patient is predicted to be unaffected by Huntington's disease caused by the expansion of the CAG repeat in the HD gene.
预计该患者不会受到 HD 基因中 CAG 重复序列扩增引起的亨廷顿氏舞蹈病的影响。
Laboratory results and submitted clinical information reviewed by Franklin Quan, Ph.D.
实验室结果和提交的临床信息由 Franklin Quan 博士审核。
Like, you have to keep looking at it to make sure that they didn't screw up somewhere.
就像，你必须继续观察以确保他们没有在某个地方搞砸。
Like, are you sure?
比如，你确定吗？
Are you sure?
你确定吗？
Kelly's audio diary was produced by Paige Cowett of WNYC.
凯利的音频日记由 WNYC 的 Paige Cowett 制作。
Coming up, how your life can change because of something that happens with your parents in the parking lot of a Kohl's department store.
接下来，你的生活会因为你父母在科尔百货公司停车场发生的事情而改变。
That's in a minute.
就在一分钟之内。
From Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续进行时，来自芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme.
当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一个主题。
Today's theme, It Says So Right Here.
今天的主题是，这里如此说。
Stories where what is written on paper in black and white has enormous power over somebody's life.
在这些故事中，白纸黑字写在纸上的内容对某人的生活具有巨大的影响力。
We've arrived at Act Three of our show.
我们已经到了节目的第三幕了。
Act Three-- There's A Signed Line Between Love and Hate.
第三幕——爱与恨之间有一条明确的界限。
Ben Calhoun has this story of politics and one very particular piece of paperwork.
本·卡尔霍恩（Ben Calhoun）有这个政治故事和一份非常特别的文件。
If you took a wholesome storybook version of the state of Wisconsin and you turned it into a person, you might get a college student named Josh Inglett.
如果你把威斯康星州的健康故事书版本变成一个人，你可能会得到一个名叫乔什·英格利特的大学生。
Josh grew up in Portage, this small city near the middle of the state.
乔什在波蒂奇长大，这座位于该州中部的小城市。
His dad, a Lutheran minister.
他的父亲是一位路德教会牧师。
His mom, a substitute kindergarten teacher.
他的妈妈是一名代课幼儿园老师。
Josh got good grades in high school, where he played quarterback for his school's mostly losing football team.
乔什在高中时取得了很好的成绩，他在学校大部分失败的橄榄球队中担任四分卫。
For college, he only looked at Wisconsin state schools.
对于大学，他只考虑了威斯康星州的州立学校。
And listen to how he's paying for it.
听听他是如何支付费用的。
Well, originally, my parents helped me out a little bit, but I kind of rejected the idea.
嗯，本来，我的父母会帮助我一点，但我有点拒绝这个想法。
I noticed some of my friends whose parents were paying for school or were assisting them in school didn't really take ownership, I guess, of their education, and they did some extracurricular activities that were not as fruitful, I guess, towards their education, and wouldn't help them, along the way, get the full learning experience at school.
我注意到我的一些朋友，他们的父母为他们支付学费或在学校为他们提供帮助，我想他们并没有真正掌握自己的教育，他们做了一些课外活动，我想这些活动对他们的教育来说并没有那么富有成效，并且不会帮助他们一路获得在学校的完整学习体验。
OK, I just want to note how he's so politely trying not to slag his friends for partying instead of studying, and that he's being so earnest and trying to live by principles.
好吧，我只是想指出他是如何如此有礼貌地试图不因为朋友聚会而不是学习而责骂他的朋友，而且他如此认真并试图按原则生活。
This is what it's like to talk to Josh.
这就是与乔什交谈的感觉。
I've actually turned away-- last year, I didn't even accept any financial aid.
我实际上已经拒绝了——去年，我什至没有接受任何经济援助。
I decided I wanted to try paying for everything and graduate from college debt-free and relatively unassisted from my parents.
我决定尝试支付所有费用，并在没有债务且相对不受父母帮助的情况下从大学毕业。
Our story with Josh actually starts right here, once Josh is at college.
我们与乔什的故事实际上就从乔什上大学时开始。
He ended up going to the University of Wisconsin at Platteville, and his sophomore year, to pay his tuition bills, he became an RA.
他最终去了威斯康星大学普拉特维尔分校，在大二那年，为了支付学费，他成为了一名 RA。
And because of that, he ended up going to the statewide convention for RAs throughout the whole UW system.
正因为如此，他最终参加了整个威斯康星大学系统的全州 RA 大会。
And this is key, because this RA conference kind of blew Josh's mind a little.
这是关键，因为这次 RA 会议让 Josh 有点震惊。
When he was there, he started hearing about students at other UW schools who were helping to make their schools better.
当他在那里时，他开始听说华盛顿大学其他学校的学生正在帮助他们的学校变得更好。
They were getting money and starting programs.
他们正在筹集资金并启动项目。
And Josh was just like, I want to do that for my school.
乔什说，我想为我的学校做这件事。
Almost on cue, he hears about a student position with the Board of Regents for the University of Wisconsin system.
几乎就在此时，他听说威斯康星大学系统董事会有一个学生职位。
Now, the Board of Regents might sound like some obscure, meaningless hunk of bureaucracy, but it's actually the governing board for Wisconsin's entire $5 billion a year university system.
现在，董事会可能听起来像一些晦涩难懂、毫无意义的官僚机构，但它实际上是威斯康星州整个每年 50 亿美元大学系统的管理委员会。
It's got two seats for students.
它有两个学生座位。
So Josh applies.
所以乔希申请了。
Soon, he gets a call from the governor's office.
很快，他接到了州长办公室的电话。
That's what a big deal the Board of Regents is.
这就是董事会的大事。
The governor actually appoints the student regents.
州长实际上任命学生董事。
So Josh goes to the state capital, Madison, to interview with Governor Scott Walker's staff.
因此，乔什前往州首府麦迪逊，采访州长斯科特·沃克的工作人员。
He's a little nervous at first, but he hits it off with the guy who's running the selection process.
一开始他有点紧张，但他和负责选拔过程的人很合得来。
Josh is telling him about playing quarterback in Portage, and as it turns out, the guy running the interview actually grew up in a nearby town called Waunakee.
乔什告诉他在波蒂奇打四分卫的事，事实证明，负责采访的人实际上是在附近一个叫沃纳基的小镇长大的。
We had shared a joke, actually, that he went to Waunakee High School, which is a big time rival of Portage in sports and things.
事实上，我们分享了一个笑话，他去了沃纳基高中，那是波蒂奇在体育和其他方面的主要竞争对手。
And they always beat us, too, so that was a good laugh.
他们也总是打败我们，所以这是一个很好的笑声。
I felt like it was probably the best interview that I had ever had.
我觉得这可能是我经历过的最好的采访。
Josh goes through weeks of interviewing and vetting, and then it happens.
乔什经历了数周的面试和审查，然后事情就发生了。
Governor Walker's office puts out a press release announcing Josh's nomination.
沃克州长办公室发布新闻稿，宣布乔什的提名。
This is what Governor Walker says about Josh in it.
这就是沃克州长在其中对乔什的评价。
"I am pleased to appoint Joshua, and I know he will serve the UW system and his fellow students well."
“我很高兴任命约书亚，我知道他将为华盛顿大学系统和他的同学提供良好的服务。”
A couple days later, Walker's staff calls Josh back to Madison for this big day of official stuff.
几天后，沃克的工作人员将乔什叫回麦迪逊，参加这个重要的官方活动。
They coach him and introduce him to lawmakers, who have to approve his nomination.
他们指导他并将他介绍给立法者，立法者必须批准他的提名。
There's meeting and greeting.
有见面和问候。
There's a big long day of that.
这是漫长的一天。
And then Josh goes home.
然后乔什回家了。
I got a call 5:30, so it must have been about an hour, probably, once I got back.
我 5 点 30 分接到电话，所以我回来后大概已经过了一个小时了。
I got a call from the governor's office-- the adviser on education to the governor.
我接到了州长办公室——州长教育顾问——的电话。
He told me that I had done a good job.
他告诉我，我做得很好。
That's kind of how he started the conversation, and then continued to ask me if I had signed the recall petition.
他就是这样开始谈话的，然后继续问我是否签署了召回请愿书。
The recall petition.
召回请愿书。
Maybe you remember this whole political bloodbath Wisconsin went through a little while ago.
也许你还记得威斯康星州不久前经历的整个政治大屠杀。
Maybe you don't.
也许你不知道。
But quick synopsis.
但快速概要。
Scott Walker, conservative Republican, gets elected in 2010.
保守派共和党人斯科特·沃克 (Scott Walker) 于 2010 年当选。
And almost immediately, he announces a ton of really controversial things-- dramatic budget cuts or, more inflammatory, eliminating collective bargaining rights for most public sector employees-- nurses, teachers, et cetera, et cetera.
几乎立即，他宣布了一大堆真正有争议的事情——大幅削减预算，或者更具煽动性的是，取消大多数公共部门雇员——护士、教师等的集体谈判权。
The state goes bananas.
国家发疯了。
A year later, people organize an attempt to recall Walker and kick him out of office.
一年后，人们组织了一次罢免沃克的行动，并将他赶下台。
And they collect about a million signatures for that.
他们为此收集了大约一百万个签名。
More than a quarter of all the registered voters in the state signed to have Walker recalled.
该州超过四分之一的登记选民签署了罢免沃克的决议。
And so they do it.
他们就这么做了。
They have a vote, and the organizers fail.
他们有投票权，但组织者失败了。
Walker wins.
沃克获胜。
Stays in office.
留在办公室。
OK, all of that happened before all this.
好吧，这一切都发生在这一切之前。
The recall petition happened when Josh Inglett was barely out of high school.
召回请愿书发生在乔什·英格利特刚刚高中毕业时。
And yet, that's what this person from the governor's office was asking Josh about on the phone.
然而，这正是州长办公室的人在电话中询问乔什的问题。
Had he signed a petition to have Walker recalled?
他是否签署了召回沃克的请愿书？
And I asked him why, I guess.
我想我问他为什么。
And he said, I just need to know.
他说，我只需要知道。
And I didn't even remember, I guess, at that point.
我想，当时我什至不记得了。
It was something, I guess, that I had kind of forgotten about-- something that was not a big point in my life.
我想，我已经忘记了这件事——这件事在我的生活中不是什么大事。
Not something that I marked on my calendar by any sense of the imagination.
我没有用任何想象力在日历上标记任何东西。
Had it been something that Josh marked on his calendar, the date on the entry would have been December 26, 2011.
如果乔什在他的日历上标记了一些内容，那么条目上的日期将是 2011 年 12 月 26 日。
Josh was home from college for the holidays, and he was out with his family after Christmas sale shopping.
乔什从大学回家过节，圣诞节购物后他和家人一起外出。
Josh says he remembers they were in the parking lot of a Kohl's department store, and there was this guy collecting signatures.
乔什说，他记得他们在科尔百货公司的停车场，有一个人在收集签名。
And Josh says while he was at home, he'd been hearing what Walker's collective bargaining legislation and budget cutting-- what this was going to do in his hometown of Portage.
乔什说，当他在家时，他一直在听说沃克的集体谈判立法和预算削减——这将对他的家乡波蒂奇产生什么影响。
His parents were talking about it, and so were his old teachers.
他的父母在谈论这件事，他以前的老师也在谈论这件事。
We were preparing ourselves, I guess, for teachers in my district to be fired and to lose their jobs.
我想，我们正在为我所在地区的教师被解雇和失业做好准备。
There was going to be a downsize, I guess, of 20 or 30 teachers who were going to get fired or dismissed because of Governor Walker's policy against the unions.
我猜想，由于沃克州长针对工会的政策，将会有 20 或 30 名教师被解雇或解雇。
All of this was bad news for Josh's mom.
所有这一切对乔什的妈妈来说都是坏消息。
Again, she was a substitute teacher.
再次，她是一名代课老师。
Mostly taught kindergarten.
主要是幼儿园教的。
And around this time, with Josh off at college, she was looking for a full-time teaching job.
大约在这个时候，乔什上大学了，她正在寻找一份全职教师工作。
She hadn't been able to find one, though, and with Walker's budget cuts and union legislation, Josh knew her chances would only get worse.
然而，她一直没能找到一个，而且随着沃克的预算削减和工会立法，乔什知道她的机会只会变得更糟。
So he's there in the parking lot, standing there with his mom, and there's the guy with the clipboard who's like, sign here, kid.
所以他在停车场，和他妈妈站在那里，还有一个拿着写字板的人，他说，在这里签名，孩子。
And so I signed it.
于是我就签了字。
Ben Calhoun It sounds like it was mostly out of support for your mom, actually.
本·卡尔霍恩 实际上，听起来这主要是出于对你妈妈的支持。
Oh, very much so, yeah.
哦，非常是，是的。
I knew that she wouldn't be able to get a full-time position if Governor Walker's policies came to fruition.
我知道，如果沃克州长的政策得以实现，她将无法获得全职职位。
It seemed like a violent situation for the people who were my role models-- my parents, my teachers, my coaches.
对于我的榜样——我的父母、我的老师、我的教练——来说，这似乎是一种暴力的情况。
They all were being affected by it, and it was something that I didn't really even think about.
他们都受到了影响，而我根本没有想到这一点。
It just seemed like that was what I should do.
看起来这就是我应该做的。
That's the best thing for the people who I love in my life.
对于我生命中所爱的人来说，这是最好的事情。
OK, so back to this phone call from the governor's office.
好的，让我们回到州长办公室打来的电话。
Walker's staff had spent a couple months interviewing and vetting Josh.
沃克的工作人员花了几个月的时间采访和审查乔什。
It had just been hours since they were parading him through the capital.
距离他们带着他在首都游行才过去几个小时。
Now they were asking him if he'd ever signed the recall.
现在他们问他是否在召回上签字。
And again, at first, he couldn't even remember.
再说一次，一开始他甚至不记得了。
Josh actually had to get off the phone with the staffer and call his dad to ask him if he had, in fact, signed the petition.
乔什实际上不得不挂断与工作人员的电话，并打电话给他的父亲，询问他是否确实签署了请愿书。
It was something that I guess I had to think about, and I think that may have turned him off, and that he was kind of upset about that.
我想这是我必须考虑的事情，我认为这可能让他失去了兴趣，他对此感到有点不安。
But I ultimately told him that I had signed it, and he said, thank you.
但我最终告诉他我已经签了字，他说，谢谢。
And I asked him, is there a problem?
然后我就问他，有什么问题吗？
And he said, no, it's just something that my boss needs to know.
他说，不，这只是我老板需要知道的事情。
And so I said, OK.
所以我说，好吧。
And he said, all right, we'll call you later.
他说，好吧，我们稍后再给你打电话。
Josh was stressed out by all this.
乔希对这一切感到压力很大。
And so that night, he wakes up.
于是那天晚上，他醒了。
Middle of the night.
半夜。
4:30 in the morning.
凌晨 4:30。
He has a voice mail from Walker's chief of staff, saying, whenever you get this, call me right away.
他收到了沃克幕僚长发来的语音邮件，内容是：无论何时收到此消息，请立即给我打电话。
It's possible the chief of staff did not mean, even if it's 4:30 in the morning, go ahead and give me a ring.
可能参谋长的意思是，即使是凌晨4点30分，也给我打电话吧。
But Josh gives the man what he's asking for.
但乔什满足了这个人的要求。
And 4:30 in the morning on that Thursday, they told me that I was being rescinded.
周四凌晨 4:30，他们告诉我，我将被解除合同。
Rescinded.
已撤销。
They were withdrawing Josh's nomination.
他们正在撤回对乔什的提名。
And the tone of the conversation was very somber.
而且谈话的语气十分阴沉。
Not welcoming.
不受欢迎。
And that was by the chief of staffer, the gentleman who was very powerful in the governor's office.
那是办公室主任，一位在州长办公室非常有权势的绅士。
I really felt lost.
我真的感到失落。
I guess I felt a sense of betrayal, because I viewed these people as people I looked up to.
我想我有一种被背叛的感觉，因为我把这些人视为我尊敬的人。
Josh says the governor's staff didn't ask about his reasoning-- why he'd signed.
乔什说，州长的工作人员没有询问他的理由——为什么他要签字。
He didn't get to explain that despite his signature, Josh was, politically speaking, actually on their side.
他没有解释说，尽管有他的签名，但从政治上来说，乔什实际上是站在他们一边的。
He's a Republican.
他是一名共和党人。
Josh had grown up listening to debates between his Republican grandparents and his Democratic parents.
乔什是听着共和党祖父母和民主党父母之间的辩论长大的。
But when he signed the petition, he says, he wasn't political at all.
但他说，当他签署请愿书时，他根本不关心政治。
Remember, Josh was only 18.
请记住，乔什只有 18 岁。
He didn't even care enough to vote in the recall election.
他甚至都不在乎在罢免选举中投票。
Then, after he signed, Josh did what a lot of people do in college.
然后，在签约后，乔什做了很多人在大学时所做的事情。
That's really when I came into my own, and that's where I developed my own beliefs and my own political thoughts.
那是我真正进入自己的世界的时候，也是我发展自己的信仰和政治思想的地方。
And I like a smaller central government, and we need to balance the budget.
我喜欢较小的中央政府，我们需要平衡预算。
Those are issues I see facing my generation, and that's something that I'm really passionate about.
这些是我看到的我们这一代人面临的问题，也是我真正热衷的事情。
And Josh doesn't just support Republican policies.
乔什不仅支持共和党的政策。
Specifically, he supports Governor Walker.
具体来说，他支持沃克州长。
Oh, very much so.
噢，非常如此。
I'm a great advocate for entitlement reform, and the policies that he's putting in place there, and what he's doing for our workforce and things.
我是权利改革、他在那里制定的政策以及他为我们的劳动力和事物所做的事情的大力倡导者。
I have great admiration for the man.
我对这个人非常钦佩。
And yet, Walker's staff thought Josh was the enemy because his signature was sitting there on that petition, and there would be no convincing them otherwise.
然而，沃克的工作人员认为乔什是敌人，因为请愿书上有他的签名，否则就无法说服他们。
As for how Josh's signature even came up in the first place, the story had been broken by a couple conservative websites the same day Josh was at the capital for all the official stuff.
至于乔什的签名最初是如何出现的，就在乔什在首都处理所有官方事务的同一天，几个保守派网站就爆出了这个故事。
Those websites found out because when Wisconsin politics had gone all nuts and the recall happened, a few conservative and Tea Party groups decided to put the recall signatures online.
这些网站之所以发现这一点，是因为当威斯康星州政治陷入疯狂并发生召回事件时，一些保守派和茶党团体决定将召回签名放在网上。
Several of them went through the petitions, activists and volunteers painstakingly data entering nearly a million signatures.
其中一些人仔细阅读了请愿书，活动人士和志愿者煞费苦心地输入了近百万个签名的数据。
So a couple conservative blogs found Josh's signature and posted stories and called the governor for comment.
因此，一些保守派博客找到了乔什的签名并发布了故事，并致电州长征求意见。
Publicly, the governor's office didn't say why it was taking Josh's nomination back, only said they were withdrawing his name and choosing someone else.
在公开场合，州长办公室没有说明为什么要收回乔什的提名，只是说他们正在撤回他的名字并选择其他人。
But once the news came out and people read about the signature, they connected the dots with a very straight line of common sense.
但一旦消息传出，人们读到签名后，他们就会用一条非常直线的常识将这些点联系起来。
And just like that, the governor's office turned a non-story-- a story of an appointment that nobody would usually hear about to a government board that a lot of people don't know exists-- they turned that into a juicy news story, one of political revenge and partisan warfare.
就这样，州长办公室变成了一个非故事——一个通常没有人听说的政府委员会任命的故事，而很多人都不知道这个委员会的存在——他们把它变成了一个有趣的新闻故事，一个政治报复和党派战争的故事。
I think I heard it on the radio in the morning is how I think I got the news.
我想我早上在广播中听到的就是我得到这个消息的方式。
I was stunned.
我惊呆了。
This is Wisconsin State Senator Dale Schultz.
我是威斯康星州参议员戴尔·舒尔茨。
And to be clear, like Governor Walker, Dale Schultz is a Republican.
需要明确的是，与沃克州长一样，戴尔·舒尔茨也是共和党人。
He's not some Democrat looking to embarrass Walker.
他不是一个想让沃克难堪的民主党人。
He's been serving as a Republican in the Wisconsin state legislature since Governor Walker was a freshman in high school.
自从沃克州长还是一名高中新生以来，他就一直在威斯康星州立法机构担任共和党人。
When the governor's office had broken the bad news to Josh, they told him they had to do this, because with the recall signature, Josh would never make it through the Republican-controlled state Senate.
当州长办公室向乔什透露这个坏消息时，他们告诉他必须这样做，因为有了罢免签名，乔什将永远无法通过共和党控制的州参议院。
Senator Schultz is on the committee that was in charge of Josh's appointment.
舒尔茨参议员是负责乔什任命的委员会的成员。
So when they said that they didn't want to drag him through the process of going through the legislature, how confident are you that if the governor had pushed him, that he would have made it through?
那么，当他们说不想拖他通过立法机关的过程时，你有多大信心如果州长推动他，他就能通过呢？
100%.
100%。
I've been in the state Senate over 20 years, and the Wisconsin legislature passes on all gubernatorial appointments.
我在州参议院工作了 20 多年，所有州长任命均由威斯康星州立法机构通过。
Rarely do we say no to anyone.
我们很少对任何人说不。
And this young man was very impressive.
而这个年轻人，却是非常令人印象深刻。
Schultz says he likes the governor.
舒尔茨说他喜欢州长。
Voted for him.
投票给了他。
Supports him.
支持他。
But the Josh Inglett thing-- he says he didn't like it.
但乔什·英格利特的事——他说他不喜欢它。
The only time I've ever seen or heard of a list like this being used before was Hugo Chavez in Venezuela, when they tried to recall him down there.
我之前唯一一次看到或听说过使用这样的名单是在委内瑞拉的乌戈·查韦斯（Hugo Chavez），当时他们试图召回他在那里。
It seems to me I remember reading an Economist article on that subject that it became a list of enemies, so to speak.
在我看来，我记得读过一篇关于该主题的《经济学人》文章，可以这么说，它成了一份敌人名单。
And I was just shocked.
我只是感到震惊。
Hearing the news, Senator Schultz fired off a letter to the governor that very same day, actually, which I have a copy of it here.
听到这个消息，舒尔茨参议员在同一天给州长写了一封信，事实上，我这里有一份副本。
"Dear Governor Walker, I write to respectfully ask that you reconsider rescinding the nomination of UW Platteville student Joshua Inglett to the UW Board of Regents.
“尊敬的沃克州长，我写信恭敬地请求您重新考虑撤销威斯康星大学普拉特维尔分校学生约书亚·英格利特 (Joshua Inglet) 对威斯康辛大学董事会的提名。
I'm not sure about you, but as for me, I know in my youth, and particularly during college, that I experimented and made decisions that, upon further thought and growth, I wouldn't make again.
我不确定你的看法，但就我而言，我知道在我年轻的时候，特别是在大学期间，我尝试并做出了一些决定，经过进一步的思考和成长，我不会再做出同样的决定。
I'm thankful others gave me opportunities to learn and grow as a person and professionally."
我很感激其他人给了我在个人和职业上学习和成长的机会。”
In the following paragraphs here, Schultz points out that after Scott Walker won the recall election, he said he regretted all the ugliness, and he called for bipartisanship and healing and peace.
在接下来的段落中，舒尔茨指出，斯科特·沃克赢得罢免选举后，他说他对所有丑陋感到遗憾，并呼吁两党合作、治愈与和平。
And then Schultz's letter continues.
然后舒尔茨的信继续。
"I agree with you that for our state to heal, we must look past those issues which divided us and focus on those passions we share and move our great state forward.
“我同意你的观点，为了让我们的国家痊愈，我们必须超越那些分裂我们的问题，专注于我们共同的激情，推动我们伟大的国家向前发展。
I can think of no greater way to put these feelings into action than by reconsidering Mr. Inglett's appointment."
我想不出比重新考虑英格利特先生的任命更好的方法来将这些感受付诸行动。”
I've called Governor Walker's office repeatedly.
我多次给沃克州长办公室打电话。
After weeks of calls, I have yet to hear anything.
经过几周的通话，我还没有收到任何消息。
They haven't even declined to comment.
他们甚至没有拒绝发表评论。
The only statements from the governor about Josh Inglett that I've been able to find are in newspapers and in a few TV stories, and they all seem to have come from this one question and answer session Walker did right when all this happened.
我能找到的州长关于乔什·英格利特的唯一声明是在报纸和一些电视故事中，它们似乎都来自沃克在这一切发生时所做的正确问答。
Joshua Inglett-- why did you decide to withdraw his nomination?
约书亚·英格利特——你为什么决定撤回他的提名？
We got plenty of other good candidates, and we're not going to get into specifics about it.
我们还有很多其他优秀的候选人，我们不会详细介绍。
We've made a decision in our office to withdraw the nomination, and we'll be submitting another student to be one of the regents.
我们办公室已决定撤回提名，并且我们将提交另一名学生担任董事之一。
Another reporter asks if Walker checks all candidates against the recall petition.
另一位记者询问沃克是否检查所有候选人是否反对罢免请愿书。
Walker avoids saying what people in his office do.
沃克避免透露他办公室里的人在做什么。
He just speaks specifically about himself.
他只是专门谈论他自己。
I don't do anything in that regard, but in terms of that, like I said, my comment's just going to be that we went through the nominations.
我在这方面没有做任何事情，但就这一点而言，就像我说的，我的评论只是我们已经完成了提名。
So it wasn't because he signed the petition?
所以不是因为他在请愿书上签名了？
Again, as I said before, I'm not going to comment one way or the other.
再次强调，正如我之前所说，我不会以任何一种方式发表评论。
The governor mostly repeats a vague line about how they don't want to, quote, "drag him through the details of that."
州长大多重复了一句模糊的话，说他们不想“让他了解这件事的细节”。
You keep saying you don't want to drag him through, talking about this reason, but he is saying that he hasn't done anything wrong.
你口口声声说不想拖累他，讲这个道理，他却说自己没有做错什么。
We're not saying there's anything-- all I'm saying--
我们并不是说有什么——我只是说——
That's indicating that he did something wrong.
这说明他做错了事。
No, it didn't indicate anything.
不，它没有表明任何事情。
You're putting words in my mouth.
你把话放到我嘴里。
I said we're withdrawing the nomination, and we'll be submitting another name from the wide list of students that we got.
我说过我们将撤回提名，我们将从我们收到的广泛学生名单中提交另一个名字。
Josh Inglett is not the only case of this.
乔什·英格利特并不是唯一的例子。
There are other instances where the recall petitions are being used as a political enemies list-- a blacklist.
还有其他一些例子，罢免请愿书被用作政敌名单——黑名单。
OK, Thomas Wolfgram, the judge from Ozaukee County who signed the Walker recall petition, is having now to explain why he signed that.
好吧，签署沃克召回请愿书的奥佐基县法官托马斯·沃尔夫格拉姆现在必须解释他签署该请愿书的原因。
During the spring of 2013, the same time Josh was interviewing with the governor's office, another situation was playing out in a judicial election.
2013年春天，就在乔什接受州长办公室面试的同时，司法选举中出现了另一种情况。
Wisconsin is one of the states that elects its judges.
威斯康星州是选举法官的州之一。
And at some point, a newspaper had run the names of judges through the recall database.
在某个时候，一家报纸通过召回数据库查询了法官的姓名。
It found 29 signed the recall petition.
结果发现有 29 人签署了召回请愿书。
Among the names, Thomas Wolfgram, a judge from Ozaukee County, one of the most conservative counties in the state.
其中包括托马斯·沃尔夫格拉姆 (Thomas Wolfgram)，他是奥佐基县的法官，该县是该州最保守的县之一。
That spring, Wolfgram was up for reelection.
那年春天，沃尔夫格拉姆准备竞选连任。
This has now become an issue in that campaign because a young conservative attorney who is an extremely good candidate-- an Iraq war vet, former clerk for the Wisconsin Supreme Court-- is raising the issue.
这现在已经成为竞选活动中的一个问题，因为一位年轻的保守派律师提出了这个问题，他是一位非常优秀的候选人——一名伊拉克战争老兵，威斯康星州最高法院前书记员。
What you're hearing is a talk show host in Milwaukee, Charlie Sykes.
您听到的是密尔沃基脱口秀主持人查理赛克斯的声音。
He was one of the conservatives who turned Wolfgram's signature into an issue.
他是将沃尔夫格拉姆的签名变成一个问题的保守派人士之一。
Sykes highlighted the story on air, explaining to listeners that Thomas Wolfgram had been exposed-- how he was this closeted Democrat living among the conservatives of Ozaukee County.
赛克斯在广播中强调了这个故事，向听众解释托马斯·沃尔夫格拉姆已经被曝光——他是如何成为一名隐秘的民主党人，生活在奥佐基县的保守派中。
And he explained how the judge with the signature had outed himself.
他还解释了那位签名的法官是如何暴露自己的身份的。
On the air, the judge is referred to as a, quote, "flaming liberal" and a "unionista," among many other things.
在广播中，这位法官被称为“火热的自由主义者”和“工会主义者”等。
One of these segments also showcased the judge's challenger, a Tea Party backed lawyer named Joe Voiland, who had decided to run against Wolfgram after finding out about the recall signature.
其中一个片段还展示了法官的挑战者、茶党支持的律师乔·沃兰德(Joe Voiland)，他在发现召回签名后决定与沃尔夫格拉姆竞争。
In this audio you're about to hear, the host of the show, Charlie Sykes, speaks first.
在您即将听到的这段音频中，节目主持人查理赛克斯首先讲话。
He's never actually stepped forward and said, I signed it because I wanted to throw Scott Walker out of office.
他从来没有真正站出来说过，我签了它是因为我想把斯科特·沃克赶下台。
I signed it because I'm a liberal, pro-union Democrat, and I wanted to overturn the 2000 election.
我签署它是因为我是一名自由派、支持工会的民主党人，并且我想推翻 2000 年的选举。
Well, he put his John Hancock on that piece of paper, and your signature-- your John Hancock-- is who you are and what you stand for.
好吧，他把他的约翰·汉考克写在那张纸上，而你的签名——你的约翰·汉考克——就是你是谁，你代表什么。
Now, look.
现在，看。
The judge in his private life supported lawlessness.
法官在私生活中支持违法行为。
The recalls were about lawlessness and selfishness, and lawlessness and selfishness are two things that a judge should not support.
这些召回是关于无法无天和自私的，而无法无天和自私是法官不应该支持的两件事。
In reality, Thomas Wolfgram, the guy being called lawless-- he made a career as a criminal prosecutor, first as an assistant DA, then as a deputy district attorney.
事实上，托马斯·沃尔夫格拉姆，这个被称为无法无天的人，他的职业生涯是刑事检察官，首先是助理检察官，然后是副地区检察官。
And I eventually ran for and was elected district attorney here in Ozaukee County.
我最终竞选并当选为奥佐基县地区检察官。
And what were you running as?
你以什么身份跑步？
Thomas Wolfgram I ran as a Republican.
托马斯·沃尔夫格拉姆 我作为共和党人参选。
A few things to know about the guy being lampooned as a lawless, pro-union flaming liberal, other than the fact that he's a former prosecutor and a Republican.
关于这个被讽刺为无法无天、支持工会的狂热自由主义者的人，除了他是一名前检察官和共和党人这一事实之外，还有一些事情需要了解。
Wolfgram was originally appointed to the bench by a Republican governor.
沃尔夫格拉姆最初是由一位共和党州长任命为替补席的。
And once he was on the bench, people liked him.
一旦他坐上替补席，人们就喜欢他了。
In 2008, Wolfgram was named Judge of the Year by the Wisconsin State Bar Association.
2008 年，Wolfgram 被威斯康星州律师协会评为年度法官。
Given his reputation and his record, when the signature thing hit, a lot of people rallied to the judge's defense.
考虑到他的声誉和记录，当标志性事件发生时，很多人都站起来为法官辩护。
He was endorsed by every police chief in his county, the county sheriff, the Deputy Sheriffs Association, a number of district attorneys, prominent private attorneys, other state judges, state Supreme Court justices.
他得到了该县每位警察局长、县治安官、副治安官协会、一些地区检察官、著名私人律师、其他州法官、州最高法院法官的认可。
On talk radio, these people were simply referred to as Wolfgram's, quote, "courthouse cronies."
在谈话广播中，这些人被简单地称为沃尔夫格拉姆的“法院亲信”。
So this campaign went on for months.
所以这个活动持续了几个月。
And remarkably, during that time, the challenger, Voiland-- he actually never criticized any part of Wolfgram's nearly two decades on the bench.
值得注意的是，在那段时间里，挑战者沃伊兰——他实际上从未批评过沃尔夫格拉姆近二十年来在替补席上的任何部分。
To my knowledge, no one ever questioned my criminal sentencing practices, my decision making in civil or family law cases.
据我所知，没有人质疑我的刑事判决实践、我在民事或家庭法案件中的决策。
They never quarreled with my judicial demeanor.
他们从未对我的司法行为产生争执。
It was limited to one issue-- that I had signed a recall petition.
仅限于一个问题——我签署了一份罢免请愿书。
Joe Voiland, the lawyer who ran against him-- he told me, yeah, that's true.
乔·沃兰德（Joe Voiland），与他竞争的律师——他告诉我，是的，这是真的。
He actually never had any problems with how Wolfgram did his job.
事实上，他对 Wolfgram 的工作方式从来没有任何疑问。
But he said Wolfgram's signature permanently compromised his ability to be seen as fair and impartial.
但他表示，沃尔夫格拉姆的签名永久损害了他被视为公平和公正的能力。
Wolfgram, for his part-- he told me he'd signed the petition not as a political statement about Walker's policies, but because he thought the public wasn't given enough time to digest the policies.
沃尔夫格拉姆则告诉我，他签署请愿书并不是关于沃克政策的政治声明，而是因为他认为公众没有足够的时间来消化这些政策。
That's what made it traumatic for the state.
这就是给国家带来创伤的原因。
This is actually something Walker later said himself.
这其实是沃克后来自己说的。
But so for months, Joe Voiland sounded the alarm in speeches, on the internet, on the radio, in mail to voters.
但几个月来，乔·沃伊兰在演讲、互联网、广播和给选民的邮件中敲响了警钟。
Wolfgram's signature had tainted him.
沃尔夫格拉姆的签名玷污了他。
Wolfgram went on to lose by a landslide-- by more than 25%.
Wolfgram 随后以压倒性优势落败——跌幅超过 25%。
After Wolfgram lost, the head of the Republican Party in his county wrote an editorial for the local paper.
沃尔夫格拉姆失败后，他所在县的共和党领袖为当地报纸写了一篇社论。
The title was, "Calling a Spade a Spade." Quote, "A big thank you is in order to all the Democrats and liberals who signed the Recall Walker petition.
标题是“实话实说”。引用：“非常感谢所有签署罢免沃克请愿书的民主党人和自由主义者。
As was clearly shown in our election for judge, the signed petitions will be utilized as an effective tool to determine the most viable candidates for future elections."
正如我们的法官选举所清楚表明的那样，签署的请愿书将被用作确定未来选举中最可行的候选人的有效工具。”
He says Wolfgram's huge defeat is a warning, not just to people who signed the petition, but to people who support anyone like that.
他说，沃尔夫格拉姆的巨大失败不仅是对签署请愿书的人的警告，也是对支持此类人的人的警告。
It's a not so veiled threat to people who stood up for Wolfgram-- people like the Republican county sheriff and the Republican district attorney.
对于那些支持沃尔夫格拉姆的人——比如共和党县治安官和共和党地方检察官——来说，这是一个不那么隐蔽的威胁。
Essentially, he says, look out.
他说，本质上，要小心。
We're coming for you next.
接下来我们就来找你了
I talked to one of the bloggers who first outed Josh Inglett for having signed the recall.
我采访了一位首先揭露乔什·英格利特签署召回声明的博主。
He's a young conservative named Brian Sikma.
他是一位年轻的保守派，名叫布莱恩·西克马。
He told me, while Governor Walker's office doesn't say whether it checks who signed the recall, he said, frankly, he finds the idea that they don't check-- he called it far-fetched.
他告诉我，虽然沃克州长办公室没有透露是否检查谁在召回上签字，但坦率地说，他认为他们不检查的想法——他称其为牵强附会。
And if somehow they didn't know before Josh Inglett that bloggers and activists would look at each and every appointment they make and call people out, Brian Sikma says he hopes they learned a lesson-- that outing people like this is now just standard procedure.
布莱恩·西克马说，如果他们在乔什·英格利特之前不知道博主和活动人士会查看他们所做的每一次约会并召集人们出去，他希望他们吸取教训——像这样的外出活动现在只是标准程序。
Sure.
当然。
Well, there are district attorneys, assistant district attorneys.
嗯，有地方检察官、助理地方检察官。
We found some judges.
我们找到了一些法官。
We also found people that serve on the judicial ethics board.
我们还找到了司法道德委员会的成员。
Candidates for school board would probably be about the lowest rung that would be checked and would end up in the public debate, as far as during an election.
学校董事会的候选人可能是要接受检查的最低级别，并且最终会在选举期间进行公开辩论。
People in the past may have been left to wonder, well, whose side are they on politically?
过去的人们可能会想知道，他们在政治上站在哪一边？
But now with the recall petition database, we can go in there, enter their name, and we can get some idea, some perspective as to whether or not they would be siding with Governor Walker, or whether they may not be using their position to slow down the governor's agenda, or at least have a certain perspective on an issue being debated in the state right now.
但现在有了罢免请愿数据库，我们可以进入那里，输入他们的名字，我们可以得到一些想法，一些观点，他们是否会站在沃克州长一边，或者他们是否不会利用自己的立场来减缓州长的议程，或者至少对目前该州正在辩论的问题有一定的看法。
In terms of the environment this has created within Wisconsin politics, I had a pretty telling conversation with a Republican staffer.
就威斯康星州政治中所创造的环境而言，我与一位共和党工作人员进行了一次非常有说服力的对话。
The staffer told me Josh Inglett's story in particular made him worried, because, he said, he saw himself in it.
工作人员告诉我乔什·英格利特的故事尤其让他担心，因为他说，他在其中看到了自己。
He'd also signed the recall petition.
他还签署了召回请愿书。
Actually, he signed it the day after Josh did.
事实上，他是在乔希签署后的第二天签署的。
The staffer's mother was a teacher, just like Josh's mom, and the staffer had signed the recall as a Christmas present to her.
该工作人员的母亲是一名教师，就像乔什的母亲一样，该工作人员在召回上签名，作为送给她的圣诞礼物。
This person, who we'll keep anonymous for obvious reasons, says he was really afraid that someone would find out about his signature.
由于显而易见的原因，我们将匿名此人，他说他真的很担心有人会发现他的签名。
And he worried it wouldn't just be embarrassing for him, but it could hurt his boss and his boss's standing within the Republican Party-- make it harder for both of them to do their jobs.
他担心这不仅会让他感到尴尬，还会损害他的老板和他老板在共和党内的地位——让他们俩都更难做好自己的工作。
Describing what this time was like, he said he was seeing people, quote, "exposed and publicly shamed nearly every week." He said, quote, "I lived in fear."
在描述这一次的情况时，他说他“几乎每周都会看到人们被曝光和公开羞辱”。他说，“我生活在恐惧之中。”
What do you feel like this has taught you about politics?
您觉得这件事教会了您什么政治知识？
I guess there's always a larger game that's at play.
我想总有一场更大的游戏在上演。
For his part, Josh Inglett's reaction to all this-- to his name being withdrawn-- wasn't to get mad at all.
就乔什·英格利特而言，他对这一切——他的名字被撤回——的反应根本不是生气。
When reporters came calling, Josh says he was honest, and his honest reaction was to accept what was happening, not to retaliate or point fingers.
当记者打电话过来时，乔什说他很诚实，他的诚实反应是接受正在发生的事情，而不是报复或指责。
Not to show any hatred towards the governor, but to show compassion and love, I guess.
我想，不是为了表现出对州长的任何仇恨，而是为了表现出同情和爱。
Not to reject them, but to be supportive.
不是拒绝他们，而是支持他们。
And it was not a time to act childish or to be yelling and kicking and screaming and pouting because of what had happened.
现在不是表现得幼稚的时候，也不是因为发生的事情而大喊大叫、踢腿、尖叫、噘嘴的时候。
Was that at all hard to do?
这很难做到吗？
Were you feeling that way?
你有这样的感觉吗？
No, that was something that I've always been raised to do.
不，这是我一直被教育要做的事情。
When I played quarterback in high school, that was what I had always done.
当我在高中打四分卫时，这就是我一直在做的事情。
When you play quarterback in Portage, you don't win very many games, but you always take the blame for things.
当你在波蒂奇打四分卫时，你不会赢得很多比赛，但你总是为事情承担责任。
And when you win, it's always the line.
当你获胜时，永远都是底线。
The line is the reason that you won the game, and you are the reason that you would lose the game.
线是你赢得比赛的原因，而你则是你输掉比赛的原因。
Credit the line for your wins, and take the blame for your losses.
将你的胜利归功于自己，并为你的失败承担责任。
Josh says maybe it was advice from his dad, the Lutheran minister, or from his mother, who had always encouraged him to send personal thank you notes.
乔什说，这可能是他父亲、路德教会牧师的建议，也可能是他母亲的建议，母亲一直鼓励他寄个人感谢信。
Which that was actually something Josh did in this case, including one to the governor's office, who he told if they ever had any positions in the future, and he could be helpful, he'd still love to serve.
这实际上是乔什在本案中所做的事情，包括向州长办公室询问，如果他们将来有任何职位，他告诉州长办公室，他可以提供帮助，他仍然愿意服务。
Given this experience that you've had, if you had the chance to take that signature back, would you do it?
鉴于你的这段经历，如果你有机会收回那个签名，你会这么做吗？
No. I wouldn't.
不，我不会。
I still love my mother, and there's no reason that I should waver away from my love for my mother due to politics like that.
我仍然爱我的母亲，我没有理由因为这样的政治而放弃对母亲的爱。
That's not something that should interfere there.
那不应该干扰那里。
So for the Walker administration, if you're looking for somebody who agrees with your politics, who's a fan of yours, and who's still excited to serve, but who won't sell out his mom, for your consideration, Joshua Inglett.
因此，对于沃克政府来说，如果你正在寻找一个同意你的政治观点的人，一个你的粉丝，一个仍然热衷于服务，但不会出卖他的母亲的人，请考虑，乔舒亚·英格利特。
He says you've got his cell number.
他说你有他的手机号码。
Ben Calhoun is one of the producers of our show.
本·卡尔霍恩是我们节目的制片人之一。
[MUSIC - "PERMANENT RECORD" BY THE GOLDEN DOGS]
[音乐 - 金狗的“永久记录”]
Our program was produced today by Jonathan Menjivar with Alex Blumberg, Ben Calhoun, Sarah Koenig, Miki Meek, Brian Reed, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
今天我们的节目由 Jonathan Menjivar 与 Alex Blumberg、Ben Calhoun、Sarah Koenig、Miki Meek、Brian Reed、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 共同制作。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Production help from Dana Chivvis.
Dana Chivvis 提供制作帮助。
Seth Lind is our operations director.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的运营总监。
Emily Condon's our production manager.
艾米丽·康登是我们的生产经理。
Elise Bergerson's our administrative assistant.
埃莉斯·伯格森是我们的行政助理。
Adrianne Mathiowetz runs our website.
阿德琳娜·马修韦茨 (Adrianne Mathiowetz) 负责运营我们的网站。
Music help today from Damien Graef and Rob Geddis.
今天达米安·格雷夫 (Damien Graef) 和罗布·格迪斯 (Rob Geddis) 提供音乐帮助。
Research help by Michelle Harris and Julie Beer.
米歇尔·哈里斯和朱莉·比尔的研究帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
[致谢] 我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
Thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Torey Malatia, who explains how he got the nickname Lollipop.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人托里·马拉蒂亚 (Torey Malatia)，他解释了他如何获得“棒棒糖”这个绰号。
I got involved in a fight, and I licked the guy pretty good.
我卷入了一场战斗，我把那家伙舔得很好。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。