507: Confessions - This American Life
You are using an outdated browser.
您正在使用过时的浏览器。
Please upgrade your browser or activate Google Chrome Frame to improve your experience.
请升级您的浏览器或激活 Google Chrome 浏览器内嵌框架以改善您的体验。
Sign up for a free Life Partners trial, and you can watch the video “A Night of Stories and Improv.”
注册免费试用《Life Partners》，您可以观看视频“故事与即兴表演之夜”。
00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #507 | October 11, 2013 507: Confessions Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 507 集 | 2013 年 10 月 11 日 507：忏悔 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass OK, here's a question that I wasn't sure if it was appropriate to ask a priest.
序言 Ira Glass 好的，这是一个我不确定问牧师是否合适的问题。
But I had a priest in the studio, and I asked the question.
但工作室里有一位牧师，我就问了这个问题。
And the priest, Father Tom Santa from St. Michael's Church in Old Town in Chicago, was kind enough to humor me.
芝加哥老城区圣迈克尔教堂的牧师汤姆·圣诞老人神父很友善地迁就了我。
My question was, in confession, do people ever confess things to you that it's hard not to roll your eyes at?
我的问题是，在坦白时，人们是否曾向你坦白一些让你很难不翻白眼的事情？
[LAUGHS] In front of them, no. But yes.
[笑]在他们面前，不。但是是的。
I had one person-- and I won't tell you what city, because he might be listening-- who would come in and every single confession would confess that he laughed in church.
我有一个人——我不会告诉你是哪个城市，因为他可能正在听——他一进来，每一个忏悔都会承认他在教堂里笑了。
And I asked him, why do you laugh in church?
我问他，你为什么在教堂里笑？
He said, because Father tells jokes.
他说，因为父亲讲笑话。
[LAUGHS] Fr.
[笑]神父。
Tom Santa And I said, Father wants you to laugh in church.
汤姆·圣诞老人 我说，父亲希望你在教堂里笑。
Well, you're not allowed to laugh in church.
嗯，你不可以在教堂里笑。
If you're not allowed to laugh in church, then Father wouldn't be telling you jokes.
如果你不被允许在教堂里笑，那么父亲就不会给你讲笑话。
I know.
我知道。
That's his problem, not mine.
那是他的问题，不是我的问题。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
Ira Glass Well, today we have a whole program about confessions.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 嗯，今天我们有一整套关于忏悔的节目。
We have a story about somebody who does confess and a story about somebody who refuses to confess.
我们有一个关于某人坦白的故事和一个关于某人拒绝坦白的故事。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life , by the way, distributed by Public Radio International.
顺便说一下，这是芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
And we called Father Santa to start the show because Father Santa is an expert in something called scrupulosity, which takes a number of different kinds of forms.
我们打电话给圣诞老人来开始表演，因为圣诞老人是一位谨慎的专家，这种谨慎有多种不同的形式。
But among Catholics, it results in people confessing to things they do not need to confess.
但在天主教徒中，这会导致人们承认他们不需要承认的事情。
Scrupulosity is when somebody obsesses over whether he is doing things that are sinful.
谨慎是指某人沉迷于自己是否在做有罪的事情。
It causes anxiety.
它会引起焦虑。
The person can't stop thinking about it.
这个人无法停止思考它。
It's something that the Catholic church has been noting and dealing with for hundreds of years.
这是天主教会数百年来一直在关注和处理的问题。
A number of saints suffered from this.
许多圣徒都因此受苦。
Father Santa says that it can be paralyzing for people.
圣诞老人父亲说这可能会让人们瘫痪。
It can make the smallest decisions impossible.
它可以使最小的决定变得不可能。
He remembers one woman that he spoke to when he was just starting out as a priest.
他记得当他刚开始担任牧师时曾与一位女士交谈过。
She called the rectory.
她给教区长打电话。
I answered the phone, and she identified who she was.
我接了电话，她认出了她是谁。
And she says, Father, I'm trying to decide if I should make tomato soup or chicken noodle soup for my husband for dinner.
她说，爸爸，我正在考虑是否应该为我丈夫做晚餐番茄汤或鸡肉面汤。
Which one is not a sin?
哪一个不是罪呢？
It's because she felt that if she prepared the wrong soup, she would disappoint her husband or her children or her guest.
因为她觉得如果她煮错了汤，她会让她的丈夫、她的孩子或她的客人失望。
And that's what's displeasing to God.
这就是神所不喜悦的。
Because God would be displeased if her family were upset.
因为如果她的家人不高兴，上帝会不高兴。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Right.
正确的。
Yeah.
是的。
There must, therefore, be a sin.
因此，一定有罪。
How did you respond?
你怎么回应的？
Fr.
神父。
Tom Santa I responded by I think I told her to pick the tomato soup.
汤姆圣诞老人我回答说我想我告诉她选择番茄汤。
[LAUGHS].
[笑]。
I just made the decision.
我刚刚做了决定。
And I was young.
而且我还年轻。
I was newly ordained.
我是新受任命的。
I didn't realize anything.
我什么也没意识到。
I didn't realize anything more than that she seemingly was asking me a question.
我没有意识到她似乎在问我一个问题。
It wasn't until later, when I was talking to other priests, that I realized that I had encountered my first scrupulous person and that my answer was, in fact, not very pastoral, but pretty flippant.
直到后来，当我和其他神父交谈时，我才意识到我遇到了第一个严谨的人，而我的回答其实并不十分田园牧歌，而是相当轻率。
So I've tried to outgrow being flippant.
所以我努力摆脱轻率的态度。
It's funny.
很有趣。
You're saying it's a bad answer.
你说这是一个糟糕的答案。
But at another level, it's a perfectly helpful and good answer, because it took her out of her pain.
但从另一个层面来看，这是一个非常有帮助且很好的答案，因为它让她摆脱了痛苦。
Until the next time she opened the cabinet, yes.
直到她下次打开柜子时，是的。
Oh, good.
哦，很好。
You see, that's why you're a priest.
你看，这就是你成为牧师的原因。
Father Santa has written a book for sufferers.
圣诞老人父亲为受害者写了一本书。
He leads retreats.
他带领撤退。
He edits a newsletter, which people send questions to.
他编辑一份时事通讯，人们可以向其发送问题。
Like for instance, you're supposed to fast for an hour before taking Communion, which Father Santa says is pretty easy.
举例来说，你应该在吃圣餐之前禁食一个小时，圣诞老人说这很容易。
Anybody who goes to church, it's about an hour before you receive communion.
任何去教堂的人，大约需要一个小时才能领圣餐。
But anyways, if they have scrupulosity, they'll be concerned that for instance, as they're sitting there in church, they discovered that they had a seed left in their mouth and they swallowed it.
但无论如何，如果他们有谨慎的话，他们会担心，例如，当他们坐在教堂里时，他们发现嘴里留着一颗种子，然后把它吞下去了。
Does that break their fast?
这会破坏他们的斋戒吗？
Or does lipstick break your fast?
或者口红会破坏你的斋戒吗？
Or things like that.
或者类似的事情。
Yeah.
是的。
Fr.
神父。
Tom Santa Another one I get commonly is, we're going to go on a cruise and there's no guarantee that we'll have Sunday Mass.
汤姆·圣诞老人 我经常听到的另一个问题是，我们要去游轮旅行，但不能保证我们会有周日弥撒。
So am I committing a mortal sin by skipping Sunday Mass?
那么我不参加主日弥撒是否犯了大罪呢？
I said no, you're on a boat, and that's what you do.
我说不，你在船上，那就是你所做的。
Enjoy your trip.
祝您旅途愉快。
Have a great time.
玩得很开心。
Don't worry about it.
别担心。
Somebody wrote your newsletter, I sometimes get frustrated with my dog.
有人写了你的时事通讯，我有时对我的狗感到沮丧。
Is this a serious sin?
这是严重的罪过吗？
Right.
正确的。
See, and what that is is what they're really saying, it's not the dog.
看，这就是他们真正所说的，不是狗。
What they're really saying is, I felt an emotion.
他们真正想说的是，我感受到了一种情感。
And is that emotion acceptable or unacceptable?
这种情绪是可以接受的还是不可接受的？
Somebody wrote your newsletter, is it a sin to exaggerate a little when telling a story to friends?
有人写了你的时事通讯，向朋友讲故事时夸张一点是罪过吗？
I only mean to add a little color.
我只是想添加一点颜色。
Right.
正确的。
It's called a skill.
这就是所谓的技能。
Ira Glass [LAUGHS]
艾拉·格拉斯[笑]
There's a lot of people who make lots of money with that ability.
有很多人凭借这种能力赚了很多钱。
Father Santa says that there are two different kinds of scrupulosity.
圣诞老人父亲说，有两种不同的谨慎。
There are the people who are just not sure what is a sin and what is not a sin, and they're getting very stressed out about that.
有些人不确定什么是罪，什么不是罪，他们对此感到非常紧张。
That is pretty straightforward to deal with, he says.
他说，这很容易处理。
A priest just needs to patiently talk these people through what counts as a sin.
牧师只需要耐心地告诉这些人什么才是罪孽。
And usually over the course of months, the anxieties fade.
通常在几个月的时间里，焦虑就会消失。
Much more difficult are the people who have an actual psychological disorder, whose scrupulosity is tied up with what priests have come to understand in the last three or four decades is obsessive compulsive disorder.
更困难的是那些患有实际心理障碍的人，他们的谨慎与神父在过去三、四十年中逐渐理解的强迫症密切相关。
Like for instance, a man who felt that he could not get out of bed in the morning until he believed that he was doing it in a pure way that would not offend God.
举例来说，一个人觉得自己早上起不了床，直到他相信自己的做法是纯洁的，不会冒犯上帝。
Or people who believe that they are constantly blaspheming God.
或者那些相信自己不断亵渎上帝的人。
Or a woman who thought that if she left her house unlocked, it would put her whole family in danger, which she believed was a sin.
或者一个女人认为，如果她不锁房子，就会让她的整个家庭陷入危险，她认为这是一种罪过。
So she would check the lock over and over and over and over.
所以她会一遍又一遍地检查锁。
Father Santa says that in confession, these people describe their sins without feeling.
圣诞老人父亲说，在忏悔中，这些人毫无感情地描述他们的罪过。
They do it almost mechanically.
他们几乎是机械地做这件事。
They ask the same questions over and over, not accepting the answers that they're given.
他们一遍又一遍地问同样的问题，却不接受给出的答案。
He calls this the scrupulous ritual.
他称之为严谨的仪式。
He says that the only thing that can help these people is therapy, behavior modification, drugs.
他说，唯一能帮助这些人的就是治疗、行为矫正和药物。
And Father Santa says that unfortunately, these are not people who usually go for that.
圣诞老人父亲说，不幸的是，这些人通常不会这样做。
On a retreat with 20 people, he'll maybe be able to convince one or two of them to seek that kind of professional help.
在一次 20 人的静修中，他也许能够说服其中一两个人寻求此类专业帮助。
The ones who refuse sometimes tell him that he's just trying to let them off too easy for their sins.
那些拒绝的人有时会告诉他，他只是想轻易地放过他们，因为他们犯了罪。
They are convinced that it is God's will for them that they suffer this way.
他们坚信，让他们遭受这样的苦难是上帝的旨意。
Accept it as their personal cross.
接受它作为他们个人的十字架。
And somehow they have to live like this.
无论如何，他们必须这样生活。
Now, you have an example in your book about you got a letter in a box, and it was 150 pages.
现在，你的书中有一个例子，你在一个盒子里收到一封信，它有 150 页。
Is that what it was?
原来是这样吗？
Yes it was.
是的，确实如此。
It was the most incredible--
最不可思议的是——
At the time, I was publisher of our publishing house, Liguori Publications in St. Louis.
当时，我是圣路易斯 Liguori Publications 出版社的出版人。
And I thought it was a manuscript that had appeared on my desk for publication, so I started reading it.
我以为这是我桌上待出版的手稿，所以我开始阅读它。
And it was the most unbelievable 150 pages describing this person's struggle with sin, with sexuality, everything that you could possibly imagine.
这是最令人难以置信的 150 页，描述了这个人与罪恶、性行为以及你能想象到的一切的斗争。
150 pages in the most unbelievable amount of details, all summarized by chapters with questions that would go with it.
150 页的详细信息之多令人难以置信，全部按章节进行总结，并附有相关问题。
And the closing paragraph said, I have two questions for you.
最后一段说，我有两个问题要问你。
One, would you be willing to hear my confession?
一、你愿意听我的告白吗？
And the second one is, do you think I'm scrupulous?
第二个是，你觉得我谨慎吗？
Was it surprising to you that this person was even asking the question?
你对这个人问这个问题感到惊讶吗？
No. It wasn't surprising to me.
不，这对我来说并不奇怪。
What was surprising to me was the level of commitment, first of all, that was required in order to write that and the level of suffering that it expressed.
让我惊讶的是，首先，为了写下这篇文章所需要的承诺程度，以及它所表达的痛苦程度。
Every page was filled with suffering.
每一页都充满了痛苦。
And that's what hit me more than anything else.
这就是最让我震惊的事情。
And it certainly isn't God's will for us.
这当然不是上帝对我们的旨意。
There's no way that's God's will.
不可能这是上帝的旨意。
Confession, Father Santa says, can be such a satisfying part of a priest's job.
圣诞老人神父说，忏悔是牧师工作中非常令人满意的一部分。
To help somebody heal and cope and get closer to God, it's at the heart of why some people become priests in the first place.
为了帮助某人治愈、应对并接近上帝，这是一些人成为牧师的首要原因。
It can be very intense.
它可能非常激烈。
And I can't remember many weddings and baptisms clearly.
很多婚礼和洗礼我都记不清了。
But there are confessions over the years that I can remember very, very clearly as if they happened yesterday.
但这些年来，有些忏悔我记得非常非常清楚，就像发生在昨天一样。
Yeah.
是的。
Fr.
神父。
Tom Santa It's also frustrating when you can't do it.
汤姆圣诞老人 当你做不到时也会感到沮丧。
When you just can't do it.
当你就是做不到的时候。
There's no word that you can say that will bring healing.
没有任何一句话可以带来治愈。
There's nothing that you can say that will bring people to a sense of peace.
没有什么话可以让人们有平静的感觉。
That's frustrating, because you want it so bad for them.
这很令人沮丧，因为你非常希望他们这么做。
And that's what can be so hard with a scrupulous confession.
这就是谨慎认罪的难度所在。
That's the hard part about it.
这是最困难的部分。
Especially if you're sitting in the confessional and you've already been in the confessional for an hour, an hour and a half.
特别是如果你坐在忏悔室里，而且你已经在忏悔室里待了一个小时、一个半小时。
And you're extremely vulnerable when you're in the confessional.
当你在忏悔室时，你非常脆弱。
You never know what the person is that's going to come in, what they're going to talk about.
你永远不知道进来的人是谁，他们会谈论什么。
You never know if it's something that's relatively unimportant or it's the deepest, darkest secret.
你永远不知道这是否是相对不重要的事情，或者是最深、最黑暗的秘密。
You never know.
你永远不知道。
And it's very draining to give individual energy to each person that comes in, to listen to them with a patient, loving heart.
为每个进来的人提供个人能量，以耐心、充满爱心的心倾听他们的声音，这是非常消耗精力的。
And so after an hour and a half, for instance, and you end up with a scrupulous person that comes in, and all they're doing is engaging in this scrupulous ritual, that has got to be one of the most difficult things I've ever done as a priest, to sit there and be patient and loving.
举例来说，一个半小时后，你最终会遇到一个一丝不苟的人进来，他们所做的就是进行这种一丝不苟的仪式，这一定是我作为牧师做过的最困难的事情之一，坐在那里保持耐心和爱心。
Because all I really want to do is just slam the door and forget it.
因为我真正想做的就是关上门然后忘记它。
But you can't.
但你不能。
You can't.
你不能。
You have to wait and be patient and give them the love that they really, really desire and need.
你必须等待并保持耐心，给予他们真正渴望和需要的爱。
Yes.
是的。
Our own saint Alphonsus Liguori, who was scrupulous, said he exhausted the confessors in Naples, the city he was from.
我们的圣人阿方索斯·利古里（Alphonsus Liguori）非常谨慎，他说他让他来自那不勒斯的忏悔神父筋疲力尽。
Because whenever they saw Alphonsus enter into the city, they would all run because he would exhaust them.
因为每当他们看到阿方索斯进城时，他们都会逃跑，因为他会让他们筋疲力尽。
[LAUGHTER] Fr.
[笑声]神父。
Tom Santa And he even admitted that he would do that.
汤姆圣诞老人他甚至承认他会这么做。
Father Tom Santa.
汤姆圣诞老人父亲。
His book is Understanding Scrupulosity, Questions, Helps, and Encouragement.
他的书是《理解谨慎、问题、帮助和鼓励》。
His newsletter you can find online is "Scrupulous Anonymous."
您可以在网上找到他的时事通讯，名为“Scrupulous Anonymous”。
Act One, "Kim Possible." So this is the story of a criminal investigation that hinges entirely on a confession.
第一幕，“金可能”。所以这是一个完全取决于口供的刑事调查的故事。
And I am not going to pretend that this goes well.
我不会假装一切进展顺利。
The case falls apart for some really interesting reasons.
这个案子由于一些非常有趣的原因而分崩离析。
Here's Saul Elbein with the story.
请听索尔·埃尔宾的故事。
OK, I'm going to walk you through the evidence of this case, see if you can tell where it goes wrong.
好的，我将向您介绍此案的证据，看看您是否能看出问题出在哪里。
Here's the crime.
这就是犯罪。
It was 1994.
那是 1994 年。
A man was found dead by the Anacostia River in Washington, DC.
一名男子被发现死在华盛顿特区的阿纳科斯蒂亚河边。
He'd been tied up and savagely beaten.
他被捆绑并遭到野蛮殴打。
Someone had taken his wallet and used his credit card at a liquor store, a drug store, and a Chinese restaurant.
有人拿走了他的钱包，并在一家酒品店、一家药店和一家中餐馆使用了他的信用卡。
Police also had a surveillance photo from an ATM that looked like this woman named Kim.
警方还从自动取款机上获得了一张监控照片，照片看起来很像这名名叫金的女子。
From public documents, they saw that her handwriting matched the signatures on the credit card slips.
从公开文件中，他们看到她的笔迹与信用卡单上的签名相符。
Jim Trainum was the lead detective on this case.
吉姆·特雷纳姆（Jim Trainum）是此案的首席侦探。
It was one of his first major homicide investigations.
这是他首次进行的重大凶杀案调查之一。
And when he started interrogating Kim, she just denied everything.
当他开始审问金时，她否认了一切。
She told him she didn't know the dead man.
她告诉他她不认识死者。
She'd never signed any credit card slips.
她从未签署过任何信用卡单据。
So they sat there for hours going back and forth.
于是他们坐在那里来回坐了好几个小时。
Then early that afternoon, Kim started to crack.
那天下午早些时候，金开始崩溃。
She tells us that you're right, I signed the credit card slips.
她告诉我们你是对的，我在信用卡单上签了字。
But I found the credit cards.
但我找到了信用卡。
And I didn't steal them.
而且我没有偷它们。
I found them and I went out and used them.
我找到了它们，然后出去使用它们。
Bingo.
宾果游戏。
She admitted she was involved somehow.
她承认她以某种方式参与其中。
Now Jim figured it was only a matter of time until she told him everything.
现在吉姆认为她告诉他一切只是时间问题。
Oh my god!
我的天啊！
Here we are.
我们到了。
We're doing good.
我们做得很好。
We got to this stage.
我们到了这个阶段。
So we decided at that point that we would take what we got and put that on videotape.
所以我们当时决定把我们得到的东西录下来。
So Jim turned on a video recorder to catch Kim confessing about the credit cards.
于是吉姆打开录像机捕捉金承认信用卡的事。
[INAUDIBLE].
[听不清]。
Jim Trainum OK.
吉姆·特雷纳姆 好的。
Let's see if we can refresh your memory here.
让我们看看能否在这里唤起您的记忆。
In the video, Jim is showing her credit card receipts.
在视频中，吉姆展示了她的信用卡收据。
And even though she admitted signing them, she's suspiciously vague about the actual items she bought.
尽管她承认自己签了字，但她对自己实际购买的物品却含糊其辞，令人怀疑。
And that made Jim think she was hiding something or covering for someone.
这让吉姆认为她在隐瞒什么或为某人掩护。
She was petite, 19 years old.
她身材娇小，今年19岁。
Not the sort of person who could beat a man to death by herself.
不是那种一个人就能把人打死的人。
Jim figured she must have had accomplices.
吉姆认为她一定有同伙。
So he pressed her for details.
于是他向她追问细节。
And finally they got to a credit card charge made at the Chinese restaurant.
最后他们在中餐馆刷了信用卡。
He asked about her order, and she told them, I don't eat that much seafood, but I did have some shrimp.
他问她点的菜，她告诉他们，我不吃那么多海鲜，但我确实吃了一些虾。
I don't eat that much seafood, but I did have some shrimp.
我吃的海鲜不多，但也吃过一些虾。
There was a shrimp dish within the Chinese food.
中餐里有一道虾菜。
And so at the time, I am right there watching it through two-way glass.
所以当时，我就在那里通过双向玻璃观看它。
And when she says a shrimp dish, I'm jumping up and down.
当她说一道虾菜时，我就跳了起来。
Because how would she know about the shrimp dish?
因为她怎么会知道虾菜呢？
Over the next several hours, she gave other details.
在接下来的几个小时里，她提供了其他细节。
The names of other stores that the credit card was used at.
使用该信用卡的其他商店的名称。
People's Drugstore, Golden Star Restaurant and Chat's Liquor.
人民药妆店、金星酒家、聊天酒。
She knew what streets they were on and how much was spent there.
她知道他们在哪条街上，也知道在那里花了多少钱。
Eventually, Kim also admitted to knowing the dead man.
最终，金也承认认识死者。
She told them that he had been sexually harassing her and she'd wanted him to stop.
她告诉他们，他一直在性骚扰她，她希望他停止。
And then at about one o'clock in the morning, 17 hours into the interrogation, she caved.
然后在凌晨 1 点左右，即审讯 17 个小时后，她屈服了。
Spilled the whole thing.
整个东西都洒了。
Kim said she and two friends waited for the man to get out of work and pulled him into their truck.
金说，她和两个朋友等着这名男子下班，然后把他拉进了卡车。
They tried talking to him, but he wouldn't listen.
他们试图与他交谈，但他不听。
He started to yell.
他开始大喊大叫。
So they decided to teach him a lesson.
于是他们决定给他一个教训。
On the confession tape, Kim fidgeted idly in her seat as she described beating him.
在认罪录音带上，金在描述殴打他时在座位上坐立不安。
She said, we started hitting him, punching him in the face at first.
她说，我们开始打他，一开始是打他的脸。
I got in a lick or two, probably more.
我舔了一两下，也许更多。
Starting hitting him, punching him in the face at first.
开始打他，一开始是打他的脸。
I got a lick in or two.
我舔了一两下。
Probably more.
可能更多。
Kim said her friends kept hitting and punching him.
金说她的朋友们不断地殴打他。
She told them to stop, that it wasn't necessary, but they wouldn't listen.
她告诉他们停下来，没有必要，但他们不听。
So she sat in the car and cried while they beat him to death.
于是，她坐在车里哭着，看着他们把他打死。
Started hitting him and hitting him and hitting him and punching him and kicking him.
开始打他、打他、打他、拳打他、踢他。
And I kept telling them, just stop.
我一直告诉他们，停下来。
Just stop.
停下来吧。
It's not necessary.
没必要。
It's not really necessary.
这其实没有必要。
The damage was already done in the first place.
损害一开始就已经造成了。
So I just turned back in the truck and just started crying.
所以我就回到卡车上，开始哭泣。
In her confession, Kim came across as cold and unrepentant.
在她的忏悔中，金给人的印象是冷酷无情、死不悔改。
At the end, one of the interrogators asked her if she's sorry for what happened.
最后，一名审讯者问她是否对所发生的事情感到抱歉。
I mean, are you sorry what happened to the guy?
我的意思是，你对那家伙的遭遇感到遗憾吗？
She said, yeah, I am.
她说，是的，我是。
But he shouldn't have done what he did to me.
但他不应该对我做那样的事。
He should have left me alone.
他应该让我一个人呆着。
Yeah, I am.
是的，我是。
But he shouldn't have did what he did to me.
但他不应该对我做那些事。
He should have left me alone.
他应该让我一个人呆着。
The next day, Jim brought Kim to an arraignment hearing, where she was charged with felony murder and held without bond.
第二天，吉姆带金出席提审听证会，她被指控犯有重罪谋杀罪，并不得保释。
So, great.
那么，太好了。
Full confession.
完全的坦白。
Perfect cop show ending.
警匪剧完美结局。
Roll credits.
滚动学分。
But then after a few months in jail, Kim recanted the whole thing.
但入狱几个月后，金收回了整件事。
She said Jim and the other interrogators had told her what to say.
她说吉姆和其他审讯者已经告诉她该说什么。
Again, here's Jim.
再说一次，这是吉姆。
She said, look, I don't want to cooperate anymore.
她说，你看，我不想再合作了。
I wasn't there.
我当时不在场。
I had nothing to do with it.
我与此无关。
So we told her attorney, well look, if she's saying this, let her come in and have a full-blown polygraph test.
所以我们告诉她的律师，好吧，如果她这么说，就让她进来进行全面的测谎仪测试。
And she did.
她做到了。
She came in, she had a full-blown polygraph test, and she failed miserably.
她进来后，接受了全面的测谎仪测试，结果惨遭失败。
Kim decided to cooperate again.
金决定再次合作。
But the cops felt they needed to strengthen their case against her, just in case she flaked on them again.
但警方认为他们需要加强对她的指控，以防她再次背叛他们。
And so what I needed to do was I needed to come up with possible things that we could show that she was out there that night.
所以我需要做的是我需要想出一些可能的事情来证明她那天晚上就在那里。
Anything whatsoever.
任何事都行。
And one of the things that we knew about was at the homeless shelter where she was living at the time, there was this log where you could sign and in sign out.
我们知道的一件事是，在她当时居住的无家可归者收容所，有一个日志，您可以在其中签名和签出。
And so I got a subpoena, went to the homeless shelter, and got the log.
于是我收到了一张传票，去了无家可归者收容所，拿到了日志。
And I was bringing it back to the office, and I flipped to the pages that had the entries for the night of the murder.
我把它带回办公室，翻到了谋杀当晚的条目。
And I looked down, and I about wrecked the car.
我低头一看，差点把车毁了。
She wasn't out during the critical times that we needed her out.
在我们需要她出去的关键时刻她没有出去。
And in fact, according to that book, there was no way that she could have participated in the murder.
事实上，根据那本书，她不可能参与谋杀。
Yeah.
是的。
We were trying to figure out, OK, well first off, it can't be her handwriting, right?
我们试图弄清楚，好吧，首先，这不可能是她的笔迹，对吧？
Because she's confessed.
因为她已经承认了。
We know that she was out.
我们知道她出去了。
So this log cannot be right.
所以这个日志不可能是正确的。
Somebody else had to sign it.
必须由其他人签字。
By now, Kim had been in jail for a few months.
此时，金已经入狱几个月了。
Ideally, Jim should have checked the shelter's logs when they first picked her up.
理想情况下，吉姆应该在他们第一次接她时检查避难所的日志。
But Kim had confessed, so he didn't think it was necessary.
但金已经承认了，所以他认为没有必要。
Jim, though, was getting uncomfortable.
然而吉姆却感到越来越不舒服。
So he decided to recheck the basis of the case, the handwriting evidence.
于是他决定重新核对案件的依据，即笔迹证据。
He went to a handwriting expert from the Secret Service to compare Kim's signature to the credit card slips.
他去找特勤局的笔迹专家，将金的签名与信用卡单进行比较。
They sat me down and they said, Jim, absolutely positively in no way did she sign these credit card slips.
他们让我坐下，然后说，吉姆，她绝对没有在这些信用卡单上签名。
And I'm just going, holy!
我就要走了，天啊！
I feel bad, but I feel confused.
我感觉很糟糕，但我感到很困惑。
And all, why would she have confessed?
还有，她为什么要坦白呢？
How did she know all these details?
她是怎么知道所有这些细节的？
And yet how could our forensic ev-- the very foundation of our case, be so wrong?
然而，我们的法医证据——我们案件的基础——怎么会如此错误呢？
An expert trained by the FBI checked it out too and said nope, no way it was her.
联邦调查局训练有素的专家也检查过，说不是，不可能是她。
The handwriting expert Jim had first used had just gotten it wrong.
吉姆最初使用的笔迹专家刚刚写错了。
So Jim took this new evidence back to the prosecutor.
于是吉姆把这个新证据带回给检察官。
At this point, nine months had passed since her arrest and the court had to either indict Kim or let her go.
此时，距她被捕已经过去九个月了，法院必须要么起诉金，要么释放她。
Without any hard proof to take her to trial, the court dismissed Kim's case and she was released from jail.
由于没有任何确凿证据将她送审，法院驳回了金的案件，并将她释放出狱。
The police never found another suspect.
警方再也没有找到其他嫌疑人。
The murder remains unsolved.
谋杀案仍未侦破。
Jim was still sure Kim had been involved somehow.
吉姆仍然确信金以某种方式参与其中。
Even if she hadn't signed the credit card slips, she confessed.
即使她没有在信用卡单上签名，她也承认了。
She knew all these details that only someone who had been there would know.
这些细节她都知道，只有去过那里的人才会知道。
It wasn't just the stores and what was bought there.
不仅仅是商店和在那里买的东西。
Kim knew how the dead man's hands had been tied up.
金知道死者的双手是如何被绑起来的。
She pointed out the ATM machine that his card had been used at.
她指出了他的卡被使用过的ATM机。
And then of course, she knew about the shrimp.
当然，她也知道虾的事。
Jim felt that she had just gotten away with murder.
吉姆觉得她刚刚逃脱了谋杀罪。
I mean, I would play this through my mind over and over again, trying to figure out how she could have known these things without having been there or having been told these things by somebody who was.
我的意思是，我会一遍又一遍地在脑海中思考这个问题，试图弄清楚她如何在没有在场或没有被现场的人告诉过这些事情的情况下知道这些事情。
So quick break here.
所以在这里快速休息一下。
Did you catch it, the humongous mistake that derailed Jim's entire investigation?
你发现了吗，这个导致吉姆整个调查脱轨的巨大错误？
Jim, for his part, had no idea.
吉姆则不知道。
He knew he'd missed something, but he just could not figure out what.
他知道自己错过了什么，但他就是想不起来到底错过了什么。
For years, he turned it over and over in his mind.
多年来，他一直在心里翻来覆去。
And then around 2002, he got assigned to review cold cases for his department.
2002 年左右，他被指派为他的部门审查悬案。
And one of the cases he pulled?
他查获的其中一个案件是？
That murder by the Anacostia River.
阿纳科斯蒂亚河边的谋杀案。
So Jim got the videotapes of Kim's confession.
于是吉姆拿到了金认罪的录像带。
He thought maybe time and distance would reveal something in those tapes, something that would give him a reason to reopen the case.
他认为也许时间和距离会揭示这些录音带中的一些东西，这些东西会给他重新审理此案的理由。
I'm just sitting back with my feet up on the table.
我只是坐在后面，把脚放在桌子上。
The TV's up there, the tape's running.
电视在那儿，磁带在放。
And I just had an "oh, my god" moment.
我刚刚有一个“哦，天哪”的时刻。
Oh my god, look!
天哪，快看！
Look at what I've done!
看看我做了什么！
What is this point?
这一点是什么？
Jim Trainum Best my memory is the point where I'm telling her, let me refresh your memory.
Jim Trainum：我的记忆力最好的就是我告诉她的那一刻，让我来刷新你的记忆。
That your signature there?
那里有你的签名吗？
Kim [INAUDIBLE].
金 [听不清]。
OK.
好的。
Let's see if we can refresh your memory here.
让我们看看能否在这里唤起您的记忆。
At the exact moment when Jim heard "let me refresh your memory," he watched himself pushing copies of the credit card slips in front of Kim.
就在吉姆听到“让我帮你回忆一下”的那一刻，他看到自己把信用卡单的副本推到金面前。
It was this sinking feeling.
就是这种沉沦的感觉。
My heart's not stopping, but it's definitely not acting right.
我的心没有停止，但它的表现绝对不对劲。
Watching the tape, he suddenly understood how she seemed to know so much.
看着录像，他突然明白了，她怎么好像懂得这么多。
She's looking at the credit card slips.
她正在看信用卡单据。
She's sitting there staring at them.
她坐在那里盯着他们。
Think about what you can get off a credit card slip.
想想你可以从信用卡单中得到什么。
You can get the name of the store, the location of the store.
您可以获取商店的名称、商店的位置。
And it's like, how did we not see that?
就像，我们怎么没看到这一点？
It just started all to become so obvious to me.
一切对我来说才刚刚开始变得如此明显。
And the more I looked at it, the more instances I could pick up.
我看得越多，我能找到的实例就越多。
And I realized fairly quickly that what we had here was a false confession, and that she was totally innocent.
我很快意识到我们这里的供词是虚假的，而她是完全无辜的。
What are we working on right now?
我们现在正在做什么？
A murder, right?
谋杀吧？
All those details Jim had been fixated on all those years?
这些年来吉姆一直关注的所有细节？
He was the one who gave them to her.
是他把它们给了她。
Do you remember any of the items that you bought at People's?
您还记得在 People's 购买过的任何商品吗？
No. Saul Elbein Like most of us, Jim had an image of the sort of cops who force false confessions.
索尔·埃尔本 和我们大多数人一样，吉姆对强迫认罪的警察有一种印象。
Bad apples.
坏苹果。
Cops who knowingly railroad some innocent to get the DA off their backs, or because they just don't care enough to do their jobs right.
警察故意坑害一些无辜者，以摆脱地方检察官的追捕，或者只是因为他们不够关心做好自己的工作。
But now suddenly Jim realized he was a bad apple.
但现在吉姆突然意识到自己是个坏苹果。
And he wondered, how many other cases had he messed up?
他想知道，他还搞砸了多少案子？
How many more confessions had he unknowingly coerced?
他不知不觉中又逼迫了多少人供认？
Kim's interrogation was the only one he'd ever recorded.
金的审讯是他唯一记录下来的一次。
I just felt bad.
我只是感觉很糟糕。
I mean, I thought I was a very conscientious, very methodical, very detail-oriented detective.
我的意思是，我认为我是一个非常认真、非常有条理、非常注重细节的侦探。
And I would never, ever want to feed information or contaminate a suspect.
我永远不会想要提供信息或污染嫌疑人。
And here I am doing it plain as day.
我在这里做得很简单。
Over the years, Jim has watched these tapes dozens of times and has catalogued all the different ways that he and the other interrogators inadvertently led her into a false confession.
多年来，吉姆已经看了这些录像数十次，并记录了他和其他审讯者无意中引导她做出虚假供述的所有不同方式。
At some point, Kim had heard, as she was facing 30 years in prison, how she might never get her kids back, and decided to give them what they wanted.
在某个时刻，金在面临 30 年监禁时听说她可能永远无法让孩子们回来，并决定给他们他们想要的东西。
So she stitched together the little pieces Jim and the other interrogators slipped her to make up a story they'd believe.
于是她把吉姆和其他审讯者塞给她的小片段拼凑起来，编造了一个他们相信的故事。
Now when I say slipped, we're not talking about a little bit of information.
现在，当我说“滑倒”时，我们谈论的并不是一点点信息。
We're talking about a lot.
我们谈论了很多。
Kim's interrogation started around 8:00 AM and went until 1:00 AM the next day.
对 Kim 的审讯从上午 8:00 左右开始，一直持续到第二天凌晨 1:00。
And as the day wore on, the interrogators started to get tired and sloppy.
随着时间的推移，审讯者开始变得疲倦和马虎。
Sometimes they just came out and told her actual details.
有时他们只是出来告诉她真实的细节。
At one point, one of the interrogators got so frustrated trying to convince Kim that they knew what she did, that he told her.
有一次，一名审讯者试图让金相信他们知道她做了什么，但他非常沮丧，于是他告诉了她。
He said to her, we know what you ate.
他对她说，我们知道你吃了什么。
Kim responded, huh?
金回应道，嗯？
What did I eat?
我吃了什么？
The interrogator said, Chinese food.
审讯者说，中国菜。
We know what you ate!
我们知道你吃了什么！
Kim What?
金 什么？
What did I eat?
我吃了什么？
Chinese food!
中国菜！
Saul Elbein And later on, Kim parroted that back to them.
Saul Elbein 后来，Kim 鹦鹉学舌地向他们复述了这句话。
But most of what Jim saw was more subtle than that.
但吉姆看到的大部分内容都比这更微妙。
Watching the interrogation, he saw that it had gone down like a long game of 20 Questions.
看着审讯过程，他发现整个过程就像一场20个问题的漫长游戏。
She'd tell him something that didn't fit his theory and he'd say, no, that isn't right.
她会告诉他一些不符合他理论的事情，他会说，不，那是不对的。
What really happened?
究竟发生了什么？
And she'd offer something else.
她还会提供其他东西。
And if that worked, Jim would be really approving, and then that's the detail that he'd write down.
如果这有效，吉姆会非常赞同，然后这就是他会写下的细节。
And they'd move on until she'd given him a confession that totally fit his pre-existing theory of the crime.
他们会继续前进，直到她向他供述，完全符合他先前存在的犯罪理论。
That's how Kim got the name of the drugstore called People's, where the credit card was also used.
这就是 Kim 的药店名称“People's”的由来，该药店也使用信用卡。
Jim asked her if she'd been there, and Kim said she didn't remember.
吉姆问她是否去过那里，金说她不记得了。
He then said, you don't remember?
然后他说，你不记得了？
And if you listen, just for an instant, you hear his tone turn disapproving.
如果你仔细听，哪怕只是一瞬间，你就会听到他的语气变得不赞成。
Did you go a People's?
你去过人民吗？
Kim I don't remember.
金我不记得了。
You don't remember?
你不记得了？
Saul Elbein Kim picked up on that and changed her answer.
索尔·埃尔本·金 (Saul Elbein Kim) 注意到了这一点并改变了她的答案。
She said, oh yeah.
她说，哦，是的。
Yes, I did.
是的，我做到了。
I had to get something.
我必须得到一些东西。
Oh yeah.
哦，是的。
Yes, I did.
是的，我做到了。
Jim Trainum What'd you buy from--
Jim Trainum 你从哪里买的——
I had to get something.
我必须得到一些东西。
Saul Elbein There's only one piece they didn't give Kim.
索尔·埃尔本 他们只有一件作品没有给金。
The bit about the shrimp dish.
关于虾菜的一点。
That seems to have been just an extremely unlucky guess.
这似乎只是一个极其不幸的猜测。
Jim and the other interrogators messed up in other ways, too.
吉姆和其他审讯者在其他方面也搞砸了。
In addition to feeding her information, they ignored some really important information she was giving them.
除了向她提供信息之外，他们还忽略了她向他们提供的一些非常重要的信息。
There are a few places on the tape where Kim said things that should have raised sudden, immediate doubts as to her guilt.
录音带中的一些地方，金所说的话本应立即引起人们对她是否有罪的怀疑。
Like this one scene in the video.
就像视频中的这一幕。
An interrogator had crime scene pictures of the victim's hands.
审讯员有受害人双手的犯罪现场照片。
He let Kim take the photos from him and hold them up to her face.
他让金从他手中接过照片，并将它们举到她面前。
Her reaction wasn't quite what you'd expect from someone who was there.
她的反应与你所期望的在场的人的反应不太一样。
She immediately said, they tied him up!
她立刻说，他们把他绑起来了！
They tied him up!
他们把他绑起来了！
Now that's a pretty significant statement.
这是一个非常重要的声明。
I mean, because she's surprised about the bindings and all of that.
我的意思是，因为她对绑定和所有这些感到惊讶。
But I mean, we never picked up on that, that she was surprised at that.
但我的意思是，我们从来没有注意到这一点，她对此感到惊讶。
And later on when she's talking to us about what happened, she talks about how he was tied up with this wire-like thing, about how they didn't take his wedding ring.
后来当她向我们讲述发生的事情时，她谈到了他是如何被这个像铁丝一样的东西绑起来的，以及他们如何没有拿走他的结婚戒指。
All things that she could've picked up from the pictures.
所有她能从照片中找到的东西。
But the most outrageous thing Jim missed when she told him, I was pregnant.
但当她告诉吉姆我怀孕时，吉姆错过了最令人震惊的事情。
I was seven months pregnant the night of the murder.
谋杀案发生当晚我已经怀孕七个月了。
This was important because the woman they were looking for, who had showed up in the ATM photo and had been seen by liquor store clerks, was clearly not pregnant.
这一点很重要，因为他们要找的女人出现在自动取款机照片中，并且被酒类商店店员看到，她显然没有怀孕。
I was pregnant.
我怀孕了。
[CRYING] I was seven months pregnant then.
[哭泣] 那时我已经怀孕七个月了。
Where that went was right over top of my head.
那件事的去向就在我的脑海中。
I mean, that was an alibi.
我的意思是，那是不在场证据。
And we just didn't pick up on it.
我们只是没有注意到它。
Why?
为什么？
Because we weren't looking for it.
因为我们不是在寻找它。
We were only looking for confirmation of what we thought was true, rather than seeking out what the truth really is.
我们只是在寻找对我们所认为的事实的证实，而不是寻找真相到底是什么。
There was no record of the pregnancy anywhere in Jim's notes.
吉姆的笔记中没有任何关于怀孕的记录。
This was in spite of the fact that when he arrested her, she had been holding a three-week-old baby, meaning she was definitely very pregnant at the time of the murder.
尽管事实上，当他逮捕她时，她正抱着一个三周大的婴儿，这意味着她在谋杀时肯定已经怀孕了。
But no one at the DC police did the math.
但华盛顿警方没有人计算过。
They didn't feel like they had to.
他们不觉得自己必须这样做。
Kim had confessed.
金已经承认了。
Here's what's really troubling.
这才是真正令人不安的地方。
Jim learned all this stuff by accident.
吉姆偶然学到了所有这些东西。
At the time, the overwhelming majority of interrogations in this country were not videotaped.
当时，该国绝大多数审讯都没有录像。
Usually, the police only turned on a recorder when they were ready to tape the final confession.
通常，警察只有在准备录制最后的供词时才会打开录音机。
But luckily, in Kim's interrogation, Jim and his partners messed up.
但幸运的是，在金的审讯中，吉姆和他的伙伴搞砸了。
After they took her confession for credit card fraud, Jim forgot to turn the recorder off.
在他们接受了她信用卡诈骗罪的供述后，吉姆忘记关掉录音机。
He just kept interviewing her while the video ran, which later gave him a very rare look at the way his interrogation had actually happened.
在视频播放期间，他一直在采访她，这让他难得地了解了审讯的实际情况。
And by the end of it, Jim saw why Kim's confession had sounded so completely convincing.
到最后，吉姆明白了为什么金的坦白听起来如此令人信服。
They had inadvertently rehearsed for almost 17 hours.
一不留神他们就排练了近17个小时。
Kim appeared so cold blooded and unrepentant because she was just exhausted.
金显得如此冷血和不悔改，因为她只是筋疲力尽。
If the case hadn't fallen apart and had gone to trial, her final confession is all a jury would have seen, not the interrogation videos from much earlier where she was denying everything and getting help on the facts from the police.
如果案件没有分崩离析并进入审判阶段，陪审团只会看到她最后的供词，而不是早先的审讯视频，在审讯视频中，她否认一切，并从警方那里寻求事实帮助。
Jim is convinced she would have been convicted.
吉姆确信她会被定罪。
Once he figured all this out, Jim didn't go around telling everyone he knew that he'd gotten a false confession.
一旦弄清楚这一切，吉姆并没有到处告诉他认识的每个人他得到了一份虚假的供述。
At least, not at first.
至少一开始不是。
I mean, I'll be honest with you.
我的意思是，我会诚实地告诉你。
Who would I have told?
我会告诉谁？
My bosses were old school.
我的老板都是老派。
I mean, they were the dinosaur's dinosaurs.
我的意思是，它们是恐龙中的恐龙。
And they would have a problem believing me if I told them that I thought it was a false confession.
如果我告诉他们我认为这是一个虚假的坦白，他们就会很难相信我。
They would have thought, what's wrong with you?
他们会想，你怎么了？
You're crazy.
你疯了。
Instead, he quietly pulled up her case file on the police's computer system and typed in that Kim's confession was false.
相反，他悄悄地在警方的计算机系统上调出她的案件档案，并输入金的供词是假的。
If anybody who came behind me-- let's say that I retired, I dropped dead or whatever and somebody came behind me-- I didn't want them bothering Kimberly at all.
如果有人支持我——比如说我退休了，我死了或者其他什么，有人支持我——我根本不想让他们打扰金伯利。
But later on, her name came up with another detective who came to me and said, look, I pulled up Kim's name in the computer and she was a murder suspect?
但后来，她的名字出现了，另一位侦探来找我说，你看，我在电脑里调出金的名字，她是谋杀嫌疑人？
And I said, oh yeah.
我说，哦，是的。
But didn't you read the last part?
但你没读最后一部分吗？
I ruled her out, whatever, and all that.
我排除了她，不管怎样，诸如此类。
He said yeah, I read that.
他说是的，我读过。
But she confessed.
但她承认了。
So I said, listen to what I'm saying.
所以我说，听我说。
It's a false confession.
这是一个虚假的坦白。
But it's like it couldn't penetrate.
但又好像无法穿透。
For a very long time, it's pretty much been gospel among law enforcement that a confession is a confession is a confession.
很长一段时间以来，认罪就是认罪就是认罪，这几乎成了执法部门的福音。
When Jim went through interrogation training, he was taught that a person would never ever confess to something they didn't do, unless they'd been physically tortured or were mentally ill.
当吉姆接受审讯训练时，他被告知一个人永远不会承认他们没有做过的事情，除非他们受到身体折磨或精神疾病。
We've been talking about false confessions for 20 years now, and some people still don't believe in them.
我们已经谈论虚假口供20年了，但有些人仍然不相信它们。
There have been cases where suspects falsely confessed, then recanted, backed up their innocence with DNA evidence, and were convicted anyway.
曾经发生过一些案件，嫌疑人先认罪，然后又翻供，用 DNA 证据证明自己无罪，最后还是被定罪。
Meanwhile, out in the police world, there's still some resistance to the one thing that most experts agree could help prevent wrongful convictions-- videotaping entire interrogations rather than just confessions.
与此同时，在警察界，大多数专家都认为可以帮助防止错误定罪的一件事仍然存在一些阻力——对整个审讯过程进行录像，而不仅仅是认罪。
Only 17 states plus the District of Columbia have statutes or court rules on recording police interrogations in cases involving serious crimes.
只有 17 个州加上哥伦比亚特区制定了在涉及严重犯罪的案件中记录警察审讯的法规或法院规则。
When Jim retired from the DC Police in 2010, he'd basically become an evangelist for "I got a false confession and here's how." He started giving presentations about Kim's case to law schools and police conferences, where he pointed out all the ways he'd coached her.
当吉姆于 2010 年从华盛顿特区警察局退休时，他基本上成为了“我得到了虚假认罪，这就是方法”的传播者。他开始向法学院和警察会议介绍金的案件，并指出他指导她的所有方法。
But what's interesting is that when he gives those talks to police, he calls the class something like, "Avoiding Investigative Pitfalls" and then only at the very end slips in a bit about false confession.
但有趣的是，当他向警方发表这些演讲时，他称全班同学为“避免调查陷阱”，然后只是在最后才插上一些关于虚假供述的内容。
He said if he led with it, people would walk out.
他说，如果他带头，人们就会走出去。
Though Jim has been talking about Kim's case for years now, to all sorts of audiences, he has no idea whatever happened to her.
尽管吉姆多年来一直在向各种观众谈论金的案件，但他不知道她发生了什么事。
I found her in another state, far away from Washington, DC.
我在另一个州找到了她，远离华盛顿特区。
The only way she would meet me was in a hotel an hour away from where she lives.
她见到我的唯一方式是在距离她住处一小时路程的一家酒店。
She was worried, she said.
她说，她很担心。
Kim lives in a small town, and people are nosy.
金住在一个小镇上，人们很爱管闲事。
She's spent a long time trying to put the past behind her.
她花了很长时间试图将过去抛在脑后。
She told me that when Jim first knocked on her door, she thought he had the wrong person.
她告诉我，当吉姆第一次敲她的门时，她以为他找错了人。
She tried telling him that, but Jim really had no interest in hearing her denials.
她试图告诉他这一点，但吉姆真的没有兴趣听到她的否认。
So I asked her what she was thinking in that interrogation room 19 years ago.
于是我问她19年前在那个审讯室里在想什么。
First thing that popped in my head was my kids.
我脑子里第一个闪现的就是我的孩子们。
I just had a newborn.
我刚刚生了一个新生儿。
And that's when I started crying.
就在那时我开始哭泣。
I was starting to get more agitated.
我开始变得更加焦躁。
It's like, I didn't do this.
就好像，这不是我做的。
I don't know what you guys are trying to do.
我不知道你们想做什么。
I just want to get the process over with.
我只是想结束这个过程。
I was tired.
我累了。
I just figured I'd give them something, and maybe they'd just let me go home.
我只是想给他们一些东西，也许他们会让我回家。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I was 20 years old.
那年我20岁。
That's what I thought was the best thing for me to do at that time.
这就是我当时认为对我来说最好的事情。
The fact that she felt that way wasn't an accident.
她有这样的感觉并非偶然。
Jim said they implied they'd let her see her kids if she talked.
吉姆说，他们暗示如果她开口，他们会让她见她的孩子。
At one point, I asked Kim if it ever surprised her that she was talked into giving a false confession.
有一次，我问金，她被说服做出虚假供述是否感到惊讶。
She looked at me like I was crazy.
她看着我，就像我疯了一样。
She told me she hadn't confessed at all.
她告诉我她根本没有坦白。
A confession, she explained, means admitting to something you did.
她解释说，坦白意味着承认你所做的事情。
But she didn't do anything.
但她什么也没做。
Basically, Jim asked her to play a game and she played it.
基本上，吉姆让她玩一个游戏，她就玩了。
It was just something that I just made up by what I saw.
这只是我根据我所看到的内容编造出来的。
I didn't really confess to anything.
我其实并没有坦白什么。
So I don't totally understand the difference.
所以我不完全理解其中的区别。
But it seems like it's an important one and I want to make sure I get it.
但这似乎很重要，我想确保我明白了。
You're saying you didn't make a confession.
你说你没有坦白。
You told them something.
你告诉他们一些事情。
I mean, if you put a bunch of pictures in front of a child and you tell them what comes first and what comes next?
我的意思是，如果你把一堆图片放在孩子面前，然后告诉他们什么是最先发生的，接下来是什么？
Nine times out of ten they're going to make up their own thing.
十分之九他们会自己编造事情。
I know I wasn't a child.
我知道我已经不是小孩子了
But things were put in front of me, and I just told a story.
但事情摆在我面前，我只是讲了一个故事。
Even Kim's court-appointed attorney had wanted her to plead guilty.
甚至金的法庭指定的律师也希望她认罪。
Some of her family thought she'd done it.
她的一些家人认为她已经做到了。
So even after she was released from jail, Kim found it impossible to get back on her feet.
因此，即使出狱后，金也发现自己不可能重新站起来。
Child Protective Services took her kids.
儿童保护服务机构带走了她的孩子。
And without her kids, she lost her spot in the family shelter.
没有了孩子，她就失去了在家庭庇护所中的位置。
Without any place to live, she says she was never stable enough to get her kids back.
她说，由于没有地方住，她的生活一直不稳定，无法让孩子们回来。
Kim says she spent almost a year and a half on the street, at one point sleeping in a tool shed in a DC Park.
金说，她在街上度过了近一年半的时间，有一次睡在华盛顿公园的工具棚里。
She never regained custody of her children.
她再也没有夺回孩子们的监护权。
Kim's case had been dismissed without prejudice, meaning if prosecutors ever found new evidence, they could bring her back in.
金的案件在没有偏见的情况下被驳回，这意味着如果检察官找到新的证据，他们可以将她带回来。
Kim believes, although I couldn't verify this, that this prevented her from getting jobs, that the charge showed up on background checks, that people judged her for it.
金相信，尽管我无法证实这一点，但这阻碍了她找到工作，这项指控出现在背景调查中，人们因此对她进行了评判。
Even though I wasn't locked up and I was released, I still felt like I was still in jail, but on the outside world.
尽管我没有被关起来并且被释放了，但我仍然感觉自己仍然在监狱里，但在外面的世界里。
I mean, I was still treated like I was a criminal.
我的意思是，我仍然被当作罪犯对待。
I lost my kids.
我失去了我的孩子。
I was homeless on the street, couldn't get a job.
我流落街头，无家可归，找不到工作。
And I really tried my best to turn my life around.
我真的尽了最大努力来扭转我的生活。
I really tried.
我真的尝试过。
And soon as they did that background check, it was a no-go.
一旦他们进行了背景调查，就发现这是不可能的。
I even tried to join the military, and it came back.
我什至尝试参军，但它又回来了。
I'm haunted.
我闹鬼了。
I don't know if anything's going to come about.
我不知道会不会发生什么事情。
Is this going to be brought back up again?
这件事又要被提起了吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
Keep in mind that Kim, by the standards of people who confess falsely, was extremely lucky.
请记住，按照那些承认错误的人的标准来看，金非常幸运。
She was innocent, and she was released.
她是无辜的，被释放了。
In her case, in a way, the system worked.
就她而言，从某种程度上来说，这个系统发挥了作用。
She doesn't feel lucky, though.
但她并不觉得自己很幸运。
She feels like her life has been ruined.
她感觉自己的人生被毁了。
While Jim has spent most of the last decade using Kim's story as a cautionary tale, Kim herself had no idea until I talked to her that he'd ever thought about it again, let alone that he thought she was innocent, or that he blamed himself.
虽然吉姆在过去十年的大部分时间里都用金的故事作为警示故事，但金本人在我和她交谈之前并不知道他曾经再次想过这个问题，更不用说他认为她是无辜的，或者他责备自己。
So when she found out about this, she stood up and walked slowly out of the room, sobbing.
当她知道这件事后，她站了起来，哭着慢慢走出了房间。
He could have really, if he really wanted to, make things right.
如果他真的愿意的话，他真的可以让事情变得正确。
He knows how to.
他知道该怎么做。
He's a former detective, or whatever he is now.
他以前是一名侦探，或者不管他现在是什么身份。
I don't know.
我不知道。
He knows how to get a hold of me, and that's the thing that bugs me the most.
他知道如何抓住我，这是最让我烦恼的事情。
[SOBBING]
[抽泣]
I can't change my past.
我无法改变我的过去。
I don't have any of my kids because of it.
因此我没有孩子。
It's still on my record.
它仍然在我的记录中。
Kim?
金？
This is Jim Trainum.
这是吉姆·特雷纳姆。
Saul Elbein When I interviewed Kim, she surprised me by asking for Jim's contact information.
索尔·埃尔本 当我采访金时，令我惊讶的是，她询问了吉姆的联系方式。
A week later, they ended up connecting by phone.
一周后，他们最终通过电话联系了。
They let me record.
他们让我录音。
I just want to first open by saying that I am very sorry for what you had gone through back then and all the pain that it caused you and problems that it's caused you.
我首先想说的是，我对你当时所经历的一切以及它给你带来的所有痛苦和问题感到非常抱歉。
In the years since he figured out his mistake, Jim had often thought about contacting Kim.
自从认识到自己的错误以来，吉姆经常考虑联系金。
But at the end, he decided not to.
但最后他决定不这么做。
He consulted with psychologists who cautioned him about the impacts on Kim if he reached out to her.
他咨询了心理学家，心理学家警告他，如果他向金伸出援手，会对她产生影响。
Plus, he told me, he was also a little scared.
另外，他告诉我，他也有点害怕。
As you might expect, it was sort of an awkward conversation.
正如你所料，这是一次有点尴尬的谈话。
Jim sounded really nervous.
吉姆听起来真的很紧张。
And for the first hour, he sounded like he was giving one of his academic speeches on how investigations go wrong.
在第一个小时里，他听起来像是在发表一场关于调查如何出错的学术演讲。
He used a lot of terms like "verification bias" and "contamination" to try and explain how false confessions happen, how he and his officers had messed up.
他使用了很多“核实偏差”和“污染”等术语来试图解释虚假供述是如何发生的，以及他和他的官员是如何搞砸的。
He went on and on like this.
他就这样一直说下去。
Through it all, it sounded like he wanted her to understand that they had meant well.
通过这一切，听起来他想让她明白他们的本意是好的。
They had tried their best, it just hadn't been good enough.
他们已经尽力了，只是还不够好。
To me, it sounded like he was saying, it's my mistake, but it wasn't completely my fault.
对我来说，他听起来像是在说，这是我的错，但这并不完全是我的错。
Kim listened patiently, but after a while she cut in.
金耐心地听着，过了一会儿她插嘴了。
I'm not trying to seem like I'm being rude or anything.
我并不是想让别人觉得我很粗鲁或者什么。
But you've got to understand after 20 years, 19 years, whatever years it is, you explaining the case to me, for what?
但你必须明白，20年、19年，无论是哪几年，你向我解释这个案子，是为了什么？
I'm not expecting you to forgive me, OK?
我并不指望你能原谅我，好吗？
You were doing your job.
你正在做你的工作。
If you knew all this, why didn't you try to find me?
如果你知道这一切，为什么不去找我呢？
I mean, I'll be honest with you.
我的意思是，我会诚实地告诉你。
It may have been the wrong decision.
这可能是一个错误的决定。
All I can do is do what I can from this point on.
从现在开始，我能做的就是尽我所能。
Kim didn't care about his hand wringing.
金不在乎他的手绞痛。
She'd been there.
她曾在那里。
She knew how it happened.
她知道这是怎么发生的。
She just wanted Jim to help her get her record expunged.
她只是想让吉姆帮助她删除她的记录。
Well, I do want this record thing taken care of.
嗯，我确实希望这个记录的事情得到处理。
OK.
好的。
Kim And I can't do it without any help.
金 如果没有任何帮助我就做不到。
I have a contact.
我有联系方式。
I have a person in the public defender's office who does that sort of thing.
我的公设辩护人办公室里有一个人就是做这种事的。
I will work with him.
我会和他一起工作。
And I will provide him with an affidavit, explain in the affidavit how you are innocent.
我会向他提供一份宣誓书，在宣誓书中解释你为何是无辜的。
I can tell in a way that you're sincere.
从某种意义上我可以看出你是真诚的。
But it's going to take me time to start trusting.
但我需要时间才能开始信任。
Jim also offered to help Kim find counseling, to help put her in touch with other people who had given false confessions, or who study them.
吉姆还主动提出帮助金寻求咨询，帮助她与其他做出虚假供述或研究这些供词的人取得联系。
And that's when the conversation started to change.
就在那时，谈话开始发生变化。
19 years ago, he'd tried to convince her she was guilty.
19年前，他曾试图让她相信她有罪。
Now he was trying to convince her it wasn't her fault.
现在他正试图说服她这不是她的错。
I mean, so many people ask me, but why did you even say that you did it?
我的意思是，很多人问我，但你为什么说是你做的呢？
So it kind of comes back on me as like I'm the stupid one.
所以我又觉得我是个傻瓜。
No. No, you're not the stupid one.
不，不，你不是那个傻瓜。
You were manipulated.
你被操纵了。
I mean, you were doing what, at that time, you thought was best.
我的意思是，当时你正在做你认为最好的事情。
None of this, none of this, is on you.
这一切，这一切，都与你无关。
Not one thing.
不是一件事。
I mean, people may try to say, well, I would never have said that!
我的意思是，人们可能会说，好吧，我永远不会这么说！
Well, you know what?
嗯，你知道吗？
Yes, you would've.
是的，你会的。
In the right circumstance, you would have.
在适当的情况下，你会的。
I promise you that.
我向你保证。
Yeah, I guess it just takes a little bit for it to all soak in for me not to feel the way I feel.
是的，我想我只需要一点时间就可以完全吸收它，让我不再有这种感觉。
I listened to them talk without breaking in.
我听他们说话，没有插嘴。
Years ago, in an interrogation room, each of them did something they never would've thought they'd do.
多年前，在审讯室里，他们每个人都做了一些他们从未想过会做的事情。
And now here they were again, their situations reversed.
现在他们又来了，他们的处境颠倒过来了。
Jim was confessing to her.
吉姆正在向她表白。
Coming up, talking to the police may mess up your life, even if you're innocent.
接下来，与警察交谈可能会扰乱你的生活，即使你是无辜的。
But what happens when you try not to talking to them?
但是当你尝试不与他们交谈时会发生什么？
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose some theme, bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一些主题，为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's show, "Confessions."
今天的节目是《告白》。
So in Act One of today's show, you heard about a person who's wrongly accused of murder who gives a false confession.
在今天节目的第一幕中，您听说了一个被错误指控谋杀的人做出了虚假供述。
This next story is about a person who is also wrongly accused of murder, only in this case, they do not confess.
接下来的故事是关于一个同样被错误指控谋杀的人，只是在这种情况下，他们不认罪。
This is Act Two.
这是第二幕。
Act Two, "You Don't Say."
第二幕“你别说”
The murder in this act is a particularly horrible one.
这一幕中的谋杀是特别可怕的。
In Nashville in 1975, a nine-year-old girl named Marcia Trimble went out to deliver some Girl Scout cookies, and she did not come home.
1975 年，在纳什维尔，一位名叫玛西娅·特林布尔 (Marcia Trimble) 的 9 岁女孩出去送一些女童子军饼干，但她没有回家。
She was found dead a month later-- strangled, sexually assaulted.
一个月后，她被发现死亡——被勒死、遭到性侵犯。
Nashville at the time had not seen many crimes like this.
当时的纳什维尔还没有发生过很多这样的犯罪事件。
It shook the whole city.
震动了整个城市。
Volunteer groups and Boy Scout troops searched for her.
志愿者团体和童子军正在寻找她。
It was one of those crimes that made people rethink how safe their city was.
这是让人们重新思考他们的城市有多安全的犯罪行为之一。
The case went unsolved for decades.
此案几十年来一直没有侦破。
And then in 2009, thanks to a DNA match, a convicted rapist named Jerome Barrett was found guilty in Marcia's death.
2009 年，通过 DNA 比对，一名名叫杰罗姆·巴雷特 (Jerome Barrett) 的强奸犯被判对玛西娅的死有罪。
But all that time, more than 30 years, law enforcement officials suspected that a different guy had committed the crime.
但三十多年来，执法官员一直怀疑是另一个人犯了罪。
That person was Jeffrey Womack.
那个人就是杰弗里·沃马克。
Jeffrey Womack was 15 when he became a suspect in Marcia Trimble's murder.
杰弗里·沃马克 (Jeffrey Womack) 成为玛西娅·特林布尔 (Marcia Trimble) 谋杀案的嫌疑人时年仅 15 岁。
He was 49 when Jerome Barrett was convicted.
杰罗姆·巴雷特 (Jerome Barrett) 被定罪时年仅 49 岁。
Womack didn't speak publicly about the ordeal for years, until last year, when he and his attorney co-wrote a memoir and appeared in a documentary about the case.
沃马克多年来没有公开谈论这一磨难，直到去年，他和他的律师共同撰写了一本回忆录，并出现在一部有关此案的纪录片中。
Before that, as producer Lisa Pollak explains, Jeffrey Womack was known, for better or for worse, not for what he did say, but for what he wouldn't say.
在此之前，正如制片人丽莎·波拉克（Lisa Pollak）所解释的那样，杰弗里·沃马克（Jeffrey Womack）出名，无论好坏，不是因为他说过什么，而是因为他没有说过什么。
I don't think I fully understood what it meant to be Jeffrey Womack, to be a suspect in a murder you didn't commit, until I talked to a woman named Demetria Kalodimos.
我想我并没有完全理解作为杰弗里·沃马克，作为一个你没有犯下的谋杀案的嫌疑人意味着什么，直到我和一个名叫德米特里亚·卡洛迪莫斯的女人交谈。
She's a TV news anchor and investigative reporter in Nashville.
她是纳什维尔的一名电视新闻主播和调查记者。
Demetria told me that in 1984, when she first moved to Nashville, she went to a restaurant with her coworkers, and one of her colleagues spotted Jeffrey Womack in the kitchen.
德米特里亚告诉我，1984 年，当她第一次搬到纳什维尔时，她和同事一起去了一家餐馆，她的一位同事在厨房里发现了杰弗里·沃马克。
Someone whispered over to me and said, see that guy over there cooking?
有人小声对我说，看到那边那个人在做饭吗？
He killed a nine-year-old girl.
他杀死了一名九岁的女孩。
And I looked and I thought, wow, what's he doing cooking?
我看了看，心想，哇，他在做什么菜？
Why is he here?
他为什么在这里？
And they said, well, it's a long story.
他们说，好吧，这是一个很长的故事。
They just couldn't get him, but they will.
他们只是抓不到他，但他们会的。
At this point, in 1984, it had been four years since the murder charges against him had been dropped for lack of evidence.
1984 年此时，距离对他的谋杀指控因缺乏证据而被撤销已经过去四年了。
And two years since the district attorney who'd issued those charges told the newspaper that he no longer believed Jeffrey had anything to do with the crime.
两年前，提出这些指控的地方检察官告诉该报，他不再相信杰弗里与这起犯罪有任何关系。
And yet, people still believed that Jeffrey Womack had gotten away with murder.
然而，人们仍然相信杰弗里·沃马克谋杀未遂。
Jeffrey wasn't the only suspect in Marcia Trimble's murder, but the cops had had their eyes on him from the night she went missing.
杰弗里并不是玛西娅·特林布尔谋杀案的唯一嫌疑人，但从她失踪的那天晚上起，警察就一直关注着他。
They believed that the person who killed her was a young white male, probably a teenager from Marcia's neighborhood, a quiet, middle-class area called Green Hills.
他们认为杀害她的人是一名年轻的白人男性，可能是来自玛西娅附近的一个青少年，那是一个安静的中产阶级地区，名叫格林希尔斯。
Jeffrey was all of those things.
杰弗里就是所有这些东西。
He was 15.
他15岁。
He and Marcia lived on the same street.
他和玛西娅住在同一条街上。
And on the day she disappeared, Jeffrey was one of the last people to see her.
在她失踪的那天，杰弗里是最后见到她的人之一。
She'd come to his house collecting money for Girl Scout cookies.
她来到他家为女童子军饼干筹集资金。
He told her he didn't have money to pay her, but that he'd bring it by in a while.
他告诉她他没有钱付钱给她，但他会在一段时间里把钱带来。
Later that night, when he heard Marcia was missing, he went to her house to tell the cops that he'd seen her.
那天晚上晚些时候，当他听说玛西娅失踪后，他去她家告诉警察他看到了她。
He figured it would be a quick conversation.
他认为这会是一次简短的谈话。
But the way he remembers it, three cops took a look at him, his long hair, his smart alecky attitude, and the shoes in which he'd written [BLEEP] you in ballpoint pen, and started interrogating him right there in the house about where he'd been that day, asking him to account for his time in five-minute increments.
但在他的记忆中，三个警察看了他一眼，看了他的长发，他聪明的态度，还有他用圆珠笔写下“哔”你的鞋子，然后开始在屋子里审问他那天去了哪里，要求他以五分钟为单位说明自己的时间。
They were very aggressive.
他们非常具有攻击性。
Lisa Pollak This is Jeffrey.
丽莎·波拉克 这是杰弗里。
I just know that when it was over, I was so confused about why all these questions like this?
我只知道当一切结束后，我很困惑为什么会有这么多这样的问题？
They'd ask them one way and they'd ask them another way.
他们会以一种方式问他们，也会以另一种方式问他们。
And I couldn't ever get the answer right.
我始终无法得到正确的答案。
I should tell you that police deny they grilled Jeffrey.
我应该告诉你，警方否认他们盘问过杰弗里。
One of the three detectives, Tommy Jacobs, told me they only questioned him for 15 minutes, and that it wasn't contentious.
三名侦探之一汤米·雅各布斯 (Tommy Jacobs) 告诉我，他们只审问了他 15 分钟，而且没有引起争议。
Then they asked me to take off my coat, told me to empty my pockets.
然后他们让我脱掉外套，让我掏空口袋。
And at the point when they had him empty his pockets--
当他们让他掏空口袋时——
Again, Demetria Kalodimos.
又是德米特里亚·卡洛季莫斯。
Last year she made a documentary about the Trimble case.
去年，她制作了一部关于特林布尔案的纪录片。
That visual never left the heart of this case.
这种视觉效果从未离开过这个案例的核心。
I had half rolls of pennies in my pocket and a five-dollar bill.
我口袋里有半卷便士和一张五美元的钞票。
Remember, he told the cops that he didn't have money to pay for Girl Scout cookies.
请记住，他告诉警察他没有钱购买女童子军饼干。
And now here he was with money.
现在他带着钱来了。
And I had a condom.
我有一个避孕套。
Demetria Kalodimos The clincher.
德米特里亚·卡洛季莫斯 (Demetria Kalodimos) 关键人物。
He's got a condom.
他有一个避孕套。
And what's a 15-year-old doing with a condom?
一个 15 岁的孩子带着安全套会做什么？
And a little girl's missing, and that just sounds too unsavory.
还有一个小女孩失踪了，这听起来太令人不快了。
The real reason why Jeffrey had a condom might also sound unsavory.
杰弗里戴安全套的真正原因可能听起来也令人不快。
Unbeknownst to his parents, he was sleeping with one of the moms in the neighborhood.
他的父母不知道的是，他正在和附近的一位妈妈睡在一起。
What happened next, at least how Jeffrey tells it, is that his mom got word that her son was being interrogated in a bedroom at the Trimbles' house, and she and their next-door neighbor, Peggy, headed over there to put an end to it.
接下来发生的事情，至少杰弗里是这么说的，是他的妈妈得到消息，她的儿子正在特林布尔斯家的一间卧室里接受审讯，她和他们的隔壁邻居佩吉前往那里结束了这一切。
Peggy just pushed the door open and just made a statement, if you want to talk to him, you can talk to his lawyer.
佩吉刚刚推开门，刚刚发表声明，如果你想和他说话，你可以和他的律师谈谈。
And that's really when things changed.
这确实是事情发生变化的时候。
Just the mention of having a lawyer automatically put even more suspicion over Jeffrey.
只要提到有律师，就会自然而然地对杰弗里产生更多的怀疑。
The thinking was, no one's accused him of anything.
我们的想法是，没有人指控他任何事情。
Why does he need an attorney?
他为什么需要律师？
The next day, Jeffrey found himself face to face with John Hollins, a well-known attorney in Nashville.
第二天，杰弗里发现自己与纳什维尔的著名律师约翰·霍林斯面对面。
He'd represented Peggy in her divorce.
他在佩吉离婚案中代表她。
He asked me to tell him, tell me exactly what happened yesterday.
他让我告诉他，告诉我昨天到底发生了什么。
And I told him.
我告诉他。
And I told him what happened at the Trimble house.
我告诉他在特林布尔家里发生的事情。
And then he gave Jeffrey an instruction that would come to define both the case and his life.
然后他给了杰弗里一个指示，这个指示决定了这个案子和他的生活。
He said, do not talk to these people anymore.
他说，不要再和这些人说话了。
Do not talk to any more detectives.
不要再与任何侦探交谈。
Tell them talk to me.
告诉他们跟我说话。
So Jeffrey didn't talk.
于是杰弗里没有说话。
And since he wasn't talking, police tried other ways to get information out of him.
由于他没有说话，警方尝试了其他方法从他那里获取信息。
When he was 17, working in a restaurant, an undercover cop joined the staff as a dishwasher, hung out with Jeffrey, went drinking with him to see if he'd say anything about the Trimble case.
当他 17 岁的时候，他在一家餐馆工作，一名卧底警察加入了工作人员的行列，担任洗碗工，和杰弗里一起出去玩，和他一起喝酒，看看他是否会透露有关特林布尔案的任何事情。
Another coworker wore a wire and asked Jeffrey point blank if he killed Marcia.
另一位同事戴着电线，直截了当地问杰弗里是否杀了玛西娅。
He said no. Once, on the anniversary of her death, they staked out the cemetery in case Jeffery went to Marcia's grave.
他说不。有一次，在她的忌日那天，他们在墓地进行了监视，以防杰弗里去玛西娅的坟墓。
He didn't.
他没有。
Finally, four a half years after the murder, investigators had enough evidence-- evidence that later fell apart-- to arrest Jeffrey.
最终，在谋杀案发生四年半后，调查人员掌握了足够的证据（后来证据不全）逮捕了杰弗里。
They brought him in in the middle of the night.
他们半夜把他带进来。
When I talked to the arresting officer, she was adamant that no one pressured Jeffrey to talk or even asked him for a statement.
当我与逮捕他的警官交谈时，她坚称没有人向杰弗里施加压力，甚至要求他发表声明。
But Jeffrey says they did, that one officer taunted him about how he supposedly strangled Marcia, how he grabbed her by the throat and wouldn't let go.
但杰弗里说他们做到了，一名警官嘲笑他如何勒死玛西娅，如何抓住她的喉咙不肯放手。
And then he was given an ultimatum.
然后他收到了最后通牒。
This is your last chance to talk to us.
这是您与我们交谈的最后机会。
If you want to talk to us, you better talk to us now.
如果您想与我们交谈，最好现在就与我们交谈。
I said, OK, I'll talk to you.
我说，好吧，我和你谈谈。
And she grabbed her pen and pad.
她抓起笔和本。
As a matter of fact, there was a couple other officers in there.
事实上，那里还有其他几个军官。
I can't remember.
我不记得了。
And I just looked at them and said, [BLEEP] you.
我只是看着他们说，[哔]你。
For years, Jeffrey says, the question followed him.
杰弗里说，这个问题多年来一直伴随着他。
If he was innocent, why wouldn't he just talk to police?
如果他是无辜的，为什么不去报警呢？
A lot of people were friends of my parents that wanted me to go down and talk to the district attorney.
很多人都是我父母的朋友，希望我下去和地方检察官谈谈。
Wanted me to go talk to the police department, straighten all this out, make it end.
要我去跟警察局谈谈，理清这一切，结束这一切。
This is killing your parents.
这是在害死你的父母。
But that wasn't the thing to do.
但那不是该做的事。
My best friend, Doug Green-- all you need to do is sit down and talk to these people.
我最好的朋友道格·格林——你所需要做的就是坐下来和这些人交谈。
No!
不！
Well, your best friend told you to talk to the cops?
嗯，你最好的朋友让你去跟警察谈谈？
Yeah.
是的。
He wanted me to sit down and talk to them.
他要我坐下来和他们谈谈。
He thought I could sit down and talk to them and straighten it all out.
他认为我可以坐下来和他们谈谈并解决一切问题。
They wanted me to sit down and talk to them and confess to it.
他们希望我坐下来和他们谈谈并承认这一点。
There was two different things.
有两件不同的事情。
They didn't want to hear from me that I had nothing to do with it.
他们不想听我说我与这件事无关。
That's not what they wanted to hear.
这不是他们想听到的。
So I really had nothing to say to them.
所以我真的无话可说。
It was useless for me to speak to them.
我跟他们说话是没有用的。
It didn't help Jeffrey's reputation that he kept his mouth shut while the cops talked to reporters.
当警察与记者交谈时，杰弗里闭嘴，这对他的声誉没有任何帮助。
But even when he was given permission to tell his side, Jeffrey didn't take it.
但即使杰弗里被允许告诉自己的一方，他也没有接受。
Today, for the first time, Jeffrey Womack talked publicly about the Trimble murder investigation and his part in it.
今天，杰弗里·沃马克首次公开谈论特林布尔谋杀案调查以及他在其中所扮演的角色。
This is an interview from right after the murder charges against Jeffrey were dropped.
这是对杰弗里的谋杀指控被撤销后不久的采访。
The perfect time, you might think, to proclaim himself an innocent victim.
你可能会认为，这是宣布自己是无辜受害者的最佳时机。
By his choice, Womack did not elaborate on most of the questions, deferring to the lawyers in some cases.
根据沃马克的选择，他没有详细说明大多数问题，在某些情况下听从了律师的意见。
Anything you would like to say that you've been wanting to get off your back for these many years now that rumors have been flying and stories have going about your situation?
既然关于你的处境的谣言满天飞，故事不断，你有什么想说的，是多年来你一直想摆脱困境的吗？
We'd heard a lot about him, but we never heard a lot from him.
我们听说过很多关于他的事，但我们却从未听到过他的消息。
Again, Demetria Kalodimos.
又是德米特里亚·卡洛季莫斯。
Lisa Pollak Do you think the silence made him look guiltier to people?
丽莎·波拉克（Lisa Pollak） 你认为沉默会让他在人们眼中显得更加内疚吗？
People will tell you that.
人们会告诉你这一点。
Well, this guy's obviously guilty.
嗯，这家伙显然是有罪的。
I mean, look at him.
我的意思是，看看他。
He doesn't say a word.
他什么也没说。
He looks straight ahead.
他直视前方。
He doesn't seem to show any emotion.
他似乎没有表现出任何情绪。
And I think that was a feeling of a lot of reporters covering the case, and it was the feeling certainly of the audience we were presenting it to.
我认为这是许多报道此案的记者的感受，当然也是我们向其介绍该案的观众的感受。
I've always thought if it were me, I'd be yelling from the rooftops.
我一直在想，如果是我，我会在屋顶上大喊大叫。
I wouldn't be listening to my lawyer and staying behind closed doors and never saying another word.
我不会听我的律师的话，关起门来，不再说一句话。
When I asked Jeffrey's attorney, John Hollins, if he worried that the silence hurt Jeffrey, made him seem unsympathetic to people, he said, I wasn't worried about him being sympathetic.
当我问杰弗里的律师约翰·霍林斯（John Hollins），他是否担心这种沉默会伤害杰弗里，让他看起来对人们缺乏同情心，他说，我并不担心他会同情别人。
I was worried about them trying to put him in the penitentiary.
我担心他们试图把他关进监狱。
It probably won't surprise you that both the detectives I talked to said they weren't out to get Jeffrey, that they were following leads, trying to eliminate suspects or build a case, if there was one to build.
你可能不会感到惊讶，我采访过的两位侦探都表示，他们并不是要抓杰弗里，而是在跟踪线索，试图消除嫌疑人或立案（如果有案件需要立案的话）。
They said if Jeffrey had talked to them, maybe they could have cleared him.
他们说，如果杰弗里和他们谈谈，也许他们就能洗清他的罪。
But Jeffrey and his lawyer both believe that not talking is what kept him free.
但杰弗里和他的律师都相信，不说话才是让他自由的原因。
For Jeffrey, not talking had other consequences.
对于杰弗里来说，不说话还会带来其他后果。
There were people who gave him the cold shoulder or talked behind his back once they learned he was that Jeffrey Womack.
有些人一旦得知他就是那个杰弗里·沃马克，就会冷落他或在背后议论他。
He told me a story about a woman he once liked, somebody who used to come drink at the restaurant where he worked.
他给我讲了一个关于他曾经喜欢过的女人的故事，这个女人经常到他工作的餐厅喝酒。
And we just started hanging out with each other.
我们刚刚开始一起出去玩。
And she freaked out when she found out who I was.
当她发现我是谁时，她吓坏了。
I just can't hang around with you anymore, because of who you are.
我只是不能再和你在一起了，因为你是谁。
Well, how did you feel when she said that to you?
那么，当她对你说这句话时，你感觉如何？
I felt bad.
我感觉很糟糕。
Because I couldn't explain how to get out of it, how to make it where, don't worry about it.
因为我无法解释如何摆脱它，如何到达那里，所以不用担心。
It's OK.
没关系。
How can I defend myself for something I didn't do?
我该如何为我没有做过的事情辩护？
You said there is no defense.
你说没有防御。
But there is a defense.
但有一个防御。
You didn't want to say, I didn't do it.
你不想说，那不是我做的。
I'm the one who's being wronged here.
我就是这里受委屈的人。
Why not defend yourself at all to people and make your case?
为什么不向人们辩护并阐述你的观点呢？
You had a case to make.
你有一个案子要提出。
What you're saying sounds good.
你说的听起来不错。
But when you sit down and you start talking to someone about this, it's, well, how did you get in this mess?
但当你坐下来开始和某人谈论这件事时，你是怎么陷入这个困境的？
Even when I would say I had nothing to do with it, well, you must have done something because they wouldn't keep coming after if you didn't do anything wrong.
即使我会说我与这件事无关，好吧，你一定做了什么，因为如果你没有做错任何事，他们就不会继续追查。
The police department doesn't do that.
警察局不会这么做。
Well, they did do that.
嗯，他们确实这么做了。
The horrible fact of the whole thing was that they did.
整件事的可怕事实是他们确实这么做了。
So you learn to shut up about it.
所以你要学会闭嘴。
You learn to stop.
你学会停下来。
Jeffrey is 54 now.
杰弗里现在 54 岁了。
He doesn't think the Trimble case ruined his life.
他不认为特林布尔案毁了他的生活。
And when people suggest it has, he doesn't like it.
当人们建议这样做时，他不喜欢。
He doesn't want to play the victim, and he doesn't want people psychoanalyzing him.
他不想扮演受害者，也不希望人们对他进行精神分析。
Listen to how he reacted when Demetria, during one of our interviews, brought up the V word.
听听当 Demetria 在我们的一次采访中提到 V 这个词时他的反应。
Do you think of yourself as a victim sometimes?
你有时会认为自己是受害者吗？
I do.
我愿意。
Just think about what your life would have been if you even--
想想看，如果你——
That's Kathy, an old friend of Jeffrey's in the background.
那是凯西，杰弗里在后台的老朋友。
She saying, just think of what your life would have been.
她说，想想你的生活会是什么样子。
Don't know.
不知道。
Don't know what my life would have been.
不知道我的生活会是什么样子。
I just don't know.
我只是不知道。
Because what do you think your life would have been?
因为你认为你的生活会怎样？
Who knows?
谁知道？
Jeffrey's had his share of hard stuff in his life.
杰弗里的生活中也经历过一些艰难的事情。
He went through a divorce.
他经历了离婚。
He was a heavy drinker.
他是个酒鬼。
He's been to rehab.
他已经去康复中心了。
But he won't blame the murder case for any of that.
但他不会将这一切归咎于谋杀案。
In the past 30 years, Jeffrey says, there were times he'd go months without even thinking about the Trimble case.
杰弗里说，在过去的 30 年里，有时他会几个月都没有想到特林布尔案。
And then, inevitably, there'd be a news story about it, the mystery that had never been solved.
然后，不可避免地，就会出现有关它的新闻报道，这是一个从未解开的谜团。
And the same old questions would come up again.
同样的老问题又会再次出现。
And sometimes even his own mother wasn't sure what to think.
有时甚至连他自己的母亲也不知道该怎么想。
She'd be very upset, and she'd be crying.
她会很伤心，甚至会哭。
And it's hard to explain to your mother that you had nothing to do with this after they repeatedly, for 20-something years, kept saying Jeffrey Womack's got something to hide.
二十多年来，你很难向你的母亲解释你与这件事无关，因为他们一再重复说杰弗里·沃马克有事瞒着。
Jeffrey Womack knows something.
杰弗里·沃马克知道一些事情。
Jeffrey Womack's still a subject.
杰弗里·沃马克仍然是一个话题。
And then she would say, do you know anything about this?
然后她会说，你知道这件事吗？
No. You sure?
不，你确定吗？
You don't know anything about this?
你对此一无所知吗？
It was hard.
这很难。
That was the hardest part.
那是最难的部分。
I could handle what anybody else would say.
我可以处理其他人会说的话。
It was heartbreaking that telling her once I didn't have anything to do with it wasn't enough.
令人心碎的是，一旦告诉她我与这件事无关是不够的。
It wasn't until 2009, when another man was tried and convicted for killing Marcia, that Jeffrey was fully and undeniably cleared.
直到 2009 年，另一名男子因杀害玛西娅而受到审判并被定罪，杰弗里才彻底、不可否认地被洗清。
The case was solved when detectives discovered that the DNA on Marcia Trimble's shirt matched the DNA of a convicted rapist named Jerome Barrett.
当侦探们发现玛西娅·特林布尔 (Marcia Trimble) 衬衫上的 DNA 与已定罪的强奸犯杰罗姆·巴雷特 (Jerome Barrett) 的 DNA 相匹配时，此案得以侦破。
Even though Barrett had been arrested for other sexual assaults near Trimble's neighborhood near the time of her death, and was charged with murdering a student the same month she disappeared, the Nashville police had never considered Barrett a suspect.
尽管巴雷特在去世时因在特林布尔社区附近的其他性侵犯被捕，并在她失踪的同一个月被指控谋杀一名学生，但纳什维尔警方从未将巴雷特视为嫌疑人。
Remember, they'd been looking for a white teenage boy from the neighborhood.
请记住，他们一直在寻找附近的一名白人少年。
And Jerome Barrett was black, an adult, and lived nowhere near the Trimbles.
杰罗姆·巴雷特是黑人，已成年，住在特林布尔附近不远的地方。
But even a DNA match was not enough to convince everybody in Nashville that Jeffrey's innocent.
但即使是 DNA 匹配也不足以让纳什维尔的每个人相信杰弗里是无辜的。
Again, Demetria Kalodimos.
又是德米特里亚·卡洛季莫斯。
At the time when we were putting the documentary together, I thought that everyone would be convinced.
当时我们制作纪录片的时候，我想大家都会信服的。
And I was frankly amazed at some of the comments that I still got from people saying, yeah, but he worked with Jerome Barrett, and they probably knew each other.
坦率地说，我对一些人的评论感到惊讶，他们说，是的，但他和杰罗姆·巴雷特一起工作，他们可能互相认识。
And I mean, there are still people who will not let this go.
我的意思是，仍然有人不会放过这件事。
Demetria says the cops she's interviewed haven't expressed much sympathy for Jeffrey.
德米特里亚说，她采访的警察并没有对杰弗里表示太多同情。
Every single one of them said he asked for what he got.
他们每个人都说他要的是他得到的东西。
Everything he got was his fault.
他得到的一切都是他的错。
If he had just talked to us, if he had just did this, if he had just done that.
如果他刚刚和我们说话，如果他刚刚做了这个，如果他刚刚做了那个。
There's never been any sort of apology.
从来没有任何形式的道歉。
Jeffrey's not holding out hope for an apology, and he probably shouldn't.
杰弗里并不抱有道歉的希望，他可能也不应该抱有希望。
In July, the weekly Nashville Scene published its annual "You Are So Nashville If" issue, and one of the items on the list was, you are so Nashville if you still haven't apologized to Jeffrey Womack.
7月，《纳什维尔场景》周刊出版了年度“如果你就是纳什维尔”一期，其中的一项是，如果你还没有向杰弗里·沃马克道歉，你就是纳什维尔。
Lisa Pollak is one of the producers of our show.
丽莎·波拉克是我们节目的制片人之一。
Jeffrey Womack and his attorney have told their story in a book called The Suspect , A Memoir .
杰弗里·沃马克和他的律师在一本名为《嫌疑人回忆录》的书中讲述了他们的故事。
Their ghost writer, who's a Nashville journalist named E.
他们的代笔作家是一位纳什维尔记者，名叫 E.
Thomas Wood, got unprecedented access to the Marcia Trimble police file during his reporting, and we drew on his research for our story.
托马斯·伍德（Thomas Wood）在报道过程中史无前例地查阅了玛西娅·特林布尔（Marcia Trimble）警方档案，我们的故事借鉴了他的研究。
Our thanks to him.
我们对他表示感谢。
Demetria Kalodimos's documentary on the Trimble case is called Indelible , The Case Against Jeffrey Womack.
德米特里亚·卡洛迪莫斯 (Demetria Kalodimos) 拍摄的有关特林布尔案的纪录片名为《不可磨灭的杰弗里·沃马克案》(Indelible, The Case Against Jeffrey Womack)。
There's a link to it on our website.
我们的网站上有一个链接。
Our program was produced today by Robyn Semien, with Alex Blumberg, Ben Calhoun, Sarah Koenig, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Lisa Pollak, Brian Reed, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
今天我们的节目由 Robyn Semien 与 Alex Blumberg、Ben Calhoun、Sarah Koenig、Miki Meek、Jonathan Menjivar、Lisa Pollak、Brian Reed、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 共同制作。
Our senior producer's Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人朱莉·斯奈德。
Production help from Dana Chivvis.
Dana Chivvis 提供制作帮助。
Seth Lind is our operations director.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的运营总监。
Emily Condon's our production manager.
艾米丽·康登是我们的生产经理。
Elise Bergerson's our administrative assistant.
埃莉斯·伯格森是我们的行政助理。
Adrianne Mathiowetz runs our website.
阿德琳娜·马修韦茨 (Adrianne Mathiowetz) 负责运营我们的网站。
Research help from Michelle Harris and Julie Beer.
米歇尔·哈里斯和朱莉·比尔的研究帮助。
Music help from Damian Gray and from Rob Geddis.
达米安·格雷 (Damian Gray) 和罗布·格迪斯 (Rob Geddis) 提供音乐帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
[致谢] 我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
Thanks, as always, to our show's co-founder, Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们节目的联合创始人托里·马拉蒂亚 (Torey Malatia)。
Little known fact about Torey, Sudoku master.
关于数独大师托雷鲜为人知的事实。
And don't try to make fun of him for it.
并且不要试图因此取笑他。
Right.
正确的。
It's called a skill.
这就是所谓的技能。
There's a lot of people who lots of money with that ability.
有很多人有很多钱，有这种能力。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life .
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。