503: I Was Just Trying To Help - This American Life

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #503 | August 16, 2013 503: I Was Just Trying To Help Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 503 集 | 2013 年 8 月 16 日 503：我只是想帮忙 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue Ira Glass Sharon Snyder was a clerk for a circuit court judge in Missouri.

序言 艾拉·格拉斯 莎朗·斯奈德是密苏里州巡回法院法官的一名办事员。

And she remembers when she first heard of a man named Robert Nelson.

她还记得当她第一次听说一个名叫罗伯特·尼尔森的人时。

He was in prison, and his brother and sister came in looking for a document that he needed.

他在监狱里，他的兄弟姐妹进来寻找他需要的文件。

And this happened all the time-- she had been working there as a clerk for over 30 years.

这种事一直在发生——她在那里当文员已经有三十多年了。

So I talked to them at length, and they kind of told me the story.

所以我和他们进行了详细的交谈，他们告诉了我这个故事。

You know, that he wasn't guilty.

你知道，他没有罪。

And everybody who comes to see you tells you they weren't guilty, right?

And everybody who comes to see you tells you they weren't guilty, right?

[LAUGHS] That's right.

[笑]没错。

Ira Glass That was not a novel thing at all.

艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 这根本不是什么新鲜事。

No, no. Ira Glass But Sharon believed him in this case for a simple reason-- Robert Wilson was imprisoned for rape, and he had decided to file a motion asking for a DNA test.

不，不。艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 但莎伦在这件事上相信了他，原因很简单——罗伯特·威尔逊 (Robert Wilson) 因强奸罪入狱，他决定提出一项动议，要求进行 DNA 测试。

His trial was so long ago-- he was convicted in 1984-- no DNA test had ever been done.

对他的审判已经是很久以前的事了——他于 1984 年被定罪——当时还没有进行过 DNA 测试。

To file one of those, you have to know that it's going to come back, you know, that you're not guilty.

要提交其中一份文件，您必须知道它会回来，您知道，您无罪。

Why would anybody file it if they know they're not innocent, because it's just going to come back that they're not innocent?

如果有人知道自己不无辜，为什么还要提起诉讼，因为结果只会证明他们不无辜？

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah, so he won you over right there.

是的，所以他就在那里赢得了你的支持。

Robert Nelson didn't have a lawyer.

罗伯特·纳尔逊没有律师。

He was writing up his legal paperwork himself from prison, and his motion asking for a DNA test was turned down.

他在监狱里亲自撰写法律文件，他要求进行 DNA 测试的动议被拒绝了。

Apparently, he didn't do it the right way.

显然，他没有采取正确的方式。

Sharon said his sister asked her for advice and she suggested that he resubmit, which he did, and was turned down again.

Sharon said his sister asked her for advice and she suggested that he resubmit, which he did, and was turned down again.

Now she was just beside herself.

现在她简直要发疯了。

She didn't know where to go from there.

她不知道从那里该去哪里。

And I didn't know what to tell her either or offer any suggestions.

我也不知道该告诉她什么或提供任何建议。

Then Sharon remembered another case that was being tried where somebody filed a motion for DNA testing and it was granted.

Then Sharon remembered another case that was being tried where somebody filed a motion for DNA testing and it was granted.

And I thought, well, I have the file right here in my file cabinet.

我想，好吧，我的文件就在我的文件柜里。

And I thought, I will just go ahead and maybe if I just give her a copy of that motion, she'd send it to her brother.

And I thought, I will just go ahead and maybe if I just give her a copy of that motion, she'd send it to her brother.

Oh, I see.

我懂了。

You thought that Robert Nelson could just imitate whatever this guy did.

你以为罗伯特·尼尔森可以模仿这个家伙所做的一切。

Right.

正确的。

Exactly, exactly.

完全正确。

And of course, I'm not an attorney.

当然，我不是律师。

I have no idea what the difference was that made the judge grant it.

我不知道有什么区别让法官批准了它。

Evidently, there was something in there.

显然，里面有东西。

This is a public document that anybody could have requested and gotten a copy of.

这是一份公开文件，任何人都可以索取并获得一份副本。

If Robert Nelson or his sister had known enough to research it or ask for it, they could have gotten it themselves.

如果罗伯特·尼尔森或他的妹妹知道足够多的信息来研究或索取它，他们自己就可以得到它。

And it worked.

它奏效了。

The judge granted the motion, the DNA test proved Robert Nelson's innocence, and four years after his first request for a DNA test, he was set free.

法官批准了这项动议，DNA 测试证明了罗伯特·尼尔森的清白，在他第一次要求进行 DNA 测试四年后，他被释放了。

Justice had been delayed, but a mistake was corrected, an innocent man was out of prison.

Justice had been delayed, but a mistake was corrected, an innocent man was out of prison.

And then, five days after his release-- it was the end of the work day, 4:30, Sharon says-- the court administrator and Judge David Byrn, who she worked for, called her in.

然后，在他被释放五天后——莎伦说，那是工作日下午 4 点 30 分——法庭管理人员和她工作的大卫·伯恩法官把她叫了进来。

--and gave me a letter stating that I was going to be suspended without pay for my involvement and that there would be an investigation.

--and gave me a letter stating that I was going to be suspended without pay for my involvement and that there would be an investigation.

And I was blown away.

我被震撼了。

Blown away, totally caught off guard.

惊呆了，完全措手不及。

Two weeks later, she was fired.

两周后，她被解雇了。

She was 70 years old, had worked there for 34 years.

She was 70 years old, had worked there for 34 years.

She was nine months away from retirement.

她距离退休还有九个月。

She was told she violated Canon 7 of the county code of ethics for court employees, which says that they cannot give legal advice or give their opinions when people ask them questions like, how should I fight this case?

她被告知，她违反了县法院雇员道德准则第 7 条，该准则规定，当人们问他们诸如“我应该如何应对此案”之类的问题时，他们不能提供法律建议或发表意见。

Though, as a lawyer named Joe Patrice pointed out in a column on the legal news website Above The Law this week, after Sharon's firing became a news story, quote, "Handing out a public document as a model is not really legal advice, especially when the inmate has already demonstrated what legal action he means to take."

不过，正如一位名叫乔·帕特里斯（Joe Patrice）的律师本周在法律新闻网站“法律之上”（Above The Law）的专栏中指出的那样，在沙龙被解雇成为新闻报道后，“分发一份公共文件作为范本并不是真正的法律建议，尤其是当犯人已经表明他打算采取什么法律行动时。”

You can see how Sharon could be confused about where to draw the line in this case.

You can see how Sharon could be confused about where to draw the line in this case.

I mean, do you think it was even wrong what you did?

我的意思是，你认为你所做的事情是错误的吗？

Not really.

并不真地。

Not really.

并不真地。

I did, maybe, at first.

也许一开始我是这么做的。

I was willing to chastise myself and say, you've been a very bad girl.

我愿意责备自己说，你是一个很坏的女孩。

But in thinking it over, being it's a fact that it is a public record, she could've obtained that, then I made it just a little easier on her.

但仔细想想，既然这是公开记录，她本来可以得到的，然后我就让她轻松一点。

So can I ask you-- and I hope you feel you can be honest about this-- do you feel mad?

So can I ask you-- and I hope you feel you can be honest about this-- do you feel mad?

Well, no. I feel hurt, which has always been a problem of mine.

嗯，不。我感到受伤，这一直是我的一个问题。

I never get mad, but I certainly get hurt.

我从不生气，但我肯定会受伤。

A spokesman for the Jackson County Circuit Court, where Sharon worked, declined to be interviewed, saying only, quote, "Because of legal and ethical considerations, we cannot comment on a personnel matter." Sharon still gets her pension, but she got a much smaller severance payment than they would have paid her if she hadn't been fired.

沙龙所在的杰克逊县巡回法院的发言人拒绝接受采访，仅表示，“出于法律和道德考虑，我们无法对人事问题发表评论。” Sharon still gets her pension, but she got a much smaller severance payment than they would have paid her if she hadn't been fired.

And I asked her if anything good had come out of this.

我问她这是否有什么好处。

And I don't know, I suppose I was thinking that maybe she would say she's enjoying her slightly-early retirement, seeing her grandkids more, doing interviews on TV and radio.

我不知道，我想我在想也许她会说她很享受稍微提前退休的生活，更多地见到她的孙子们，接受电视和广播的采访。

And I guess her answer shouldn't have surprised me, but it was nice to hear.

我想她的回答不应该让我感到惊讶，但很高兴听到她的回答。

The only positive thing is that Robert Nelson is free, and I'm so happy for him.

唯一积极的事情是罗伯特·尼尔森自由了，我为他感到高兴。

And I'm glad I did it.

我很高兴我做到了。

I believe that this was a worthy cause.

我相信这是一个有价值的事业。

And even though I lost my job and, financially, it put me in a bind, I think it was worth it.

尽管我失去了工作，并且在经济上使我陷入困境，但我认为这是值得的。

So I would do it again.

所以我会再做一次。

Well, today on our radio program, people who were just trying to help, doing the best they can think of.

好吧，今天在我们的广播节目中，人们只是想提供帮助，尽他们所能。

But as in Sharon's case, it is not always so clear what the best way is to help somebody without unintended consequences, either for the people being helped or the people doing the helping.

但正如莎伦的情况一样，无论是对受帮助的人还是对提供帮助的人来说，帮助某人而不产生意想不到的后果的最佳方法并不总是那么清楚。

We have two stories today, including a sheriff who is trying to do right by marijuana growers.

今天我们有两个故事，其中包括一位试图为大麻种植者做正确事的警长。

From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.

这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

Act One: Money for Nothing and Your Cows for Free Ira Glass Act One, Money for Nothing and Your Cows for Free.

第一幕：一无所获的金钱和免费的奶牛 艾拉·格拉斯 第一幕，一无所获的金钱和免费的奶牛。

So there are charities that try to help poor people around the world in just about every way that you can possibly imagine.

因此，有些慈善机构试图以您能想象到的各种方式帮助世界各地的穷人。

They give computers, they dig wells, they'll build schools, they send teachers or solar lamps.

They give computers, they dig wells, they'll build schools, they send teachers or solar lamps.

But a few years ago, four young guys-- they were grad students at the time-- decided they were going to try something simpler.

But a few years ago, four young guys-- they were grad students at the time-- decided they were going to try something simpler.

They wanted to try just giving money to poor people.

他们想尝试只给穷人钱。

After all, they figured, that's their problem-- they don't have money.

After all, they figured, that's their problem-- they don't have money.

That's what makes them poor.

这就是他们贫穷的原因。

That's the definition of poor, they don't have money.

这就是穷人的定义，他们没有钱。

Why not just give them money?

为什么不直接给他们钱呢？

No strings attached, they don't have to pay it back.

No strings attached, they don't have to pay it back.

Let people do whatever they want with it.

让人们用它做任何他们想做的事。

The idea being, like everybody else, they will know what they need better than anybody else could.

这个想法是，像其他人一样，他们会比其他人更清楚自己需要什么。

Give them money and they can buy what they need.

给他们钱，他们就可以买他们需要的东西。

Michael Faye, one of the guys who had this idea, decided he was going to test it out himself.

Michael Faye, one of the guys who had this idea, decided he was going to test it out himself.

During a break from school, he flew to Kenya and tried giving away some of his own money, and it didn't go exactly as planned.

放学期间，他飞往肯尼亚并尝试捐出一些自己的钱，但事情并没有完全按计划进行。

Some people said no to the money.

有些人对钱说不。

And I'll be honest, that first trip, we had one village that said, thanks, but no thanks.

老实说，第一次旅行时，我们有一个村庄说，谢谢，但不，谢谢。

We don't believe you.

我们不相信你。

We think you're going to ask for something in return or need me to spend the money in a certain way.

我们认为你会要求一些回报或者需要我以某种方式花钱。

And I don't want the money.

而且我不想要钱。

Faye did his best to convince them.

菲伊竭尽全力说服他们。

Really, he said, I don't need the money back.

他说，真的，我不需要退钱。

I tried.

我试过。

They were pretty adamant that they didn't want it.

他们非常坚决地表示他们不想要它。

They said, I just don't believe it.

他们说，我就是不相信。

I think you will come back in six months or a year and ask me for something.

I think you will come back in six months or a year and ask me for something.

And I don't know what that is, but I don't trust you.

我不知道那是什么，但我不相信你。

Which sounds totally reasonable to me.

这对我来说听起来完全合理。

If somebody walked up to me on the street and just said, "I want to give you money," I would be suspicious.

如果有人在街上走到我面前并只是说：“我想给你钱”，我会感到怀疑。

But on that trip, Faye did manage to find people who were willing to accept free money, and Faye and his buddies went on to start a charity.

但在那次旅行中，费耶确实找到了愿意接受免费金钱的人，费耶和他的伙伴们继续创办了一家慈善机构。

It's called GiveDirectly, and it just gives money to poor people.

它被称为 GiveDirectly，它只是给穷人钱。

Faye and his friends have big plans.

菲和他的朋友们有宏伟的计划。

They think that, in the future, this could be one of the major ways that we help poor people.

他们认为，未来这可能是我们帮助穷人的主要方式之一。

Jacob Goldstein and Dave Kestenbaum of Planet Money recently went to Kenya to see how this was working.

Planet Money 的 Jacob Goldstein 和 Dave Kestenbaum 最近前往肯尼亚，了解其运作情况。

There are lots of reasons charities don't usually just hand out cash.

慈善机构通常不直接发放现金的原因有很多。

Chris Blattman tells this one story.

克里斯·布拉特曼讲述了这样一个故事。

Blattman is a professor at Columbia who spends a lot of time in the international aid world.

布拉特曼是哥伦比亚大学的一名教授，他在国际援助领域花费了大量时间。

He was working with this charity that was trying to help former soldiers, some of them child soldiers, become farmers.

他正在与这个慈善机构合作，该慈善机构试图帮助前士兵（其中一些是儿童兵）成为农民。

They gave them land, they gave them training, they gave them almost everything they could need.

他们给了他们土地，给了他们培训，给了他们几乎需要的一切。

But they wouldn't give cash.

但他们不会给现金。

They said that they were very worried about what people are going to do with this money.

他们说，他们非常担心人们会用这笔钱做什么。

They thought it was going to be spent on sex workers.

他们认为这些钱会花在性工作者身上。

They thought it was going to be spent on drugs or alcohol.

他们认为这笔钱会花在毒品或酒精上。

The last thing they thought it was going to be spent on was agriculture.

他们最不认为这笔钱会花在农业上。

This, of course, is one of the risks.

当然，这也是风险之一。

If you give someone money and tell them they can spend it on whatever they want, they can spend it on whatever they want.

如果你给某人钱并告诉他们可以把钱花在他们想要的任何地方，他们就可以把它花在他们想要的任何地方。

This is Carol Bellamy.

这是卡罗尔·贝拉米。

She's a former director of UNICEF.

她是联合国儿童基金会前任主任。

--just gambling it away.

——只是赌一把而已。

All the kinds of things that you don't want to have happen with money that, just, you find in your pocket.

所有你不希望发生的事情都发生在你口袋里的钱上。

Is it fair to say you think most of your colleagues in the charity world would be skeptical of this idea?

可以公平地说，您认为慈善界的大多数同事都会对这个想法持怀疑态度吗？

I think they are.

我认为他们是。

Jacob Goldstein It seems to be true.

雅各布·戈德斯坦 这似乎是真的。

When we got to Kenya, we checked in with people at local charities, people who have grown up in Kenya, who've spent their lives doing aid work, and most of them shook their heads.

当我们到达肯尼亚时，我们采访了当地慈善机构的人们，他们在肯尼亚长大，一生都在从事援助工作，他们中的大多数人都摇头。

They had a whole list of reasons why giving money wouldn't work.

他们列出了一长串为什么捐钱不起作用的理由。

Sam Owoko, with a local group called KMET told us, giving money is a handout.

当地一个名为 KMET 的组织的萨姆·奥沃科 (Sam Owoko) 告诉我们，捐钱就是施舍。

Handouts don't work.

讲义不起作用。

What we have learned is that giving people money creates a sense of dependency.

我们了解到，给人们钱会产生一种依赖感。

People would not go out of their way to improve, to even look for other sources of money.

人们不会不遗余力地改进，甚至不会寻找其他资金来源。

They know they are going to get it, so they sit there and wait and don't care about anything else in the long run.

他们知道自己会得到它，所以他们坐在那里等待，从长远来看，不关心其他任何事情。

People told us if you give money to some people but not to others, you could create real tensions between neighbors or even within families.

人们告诉我们，如果你把钱给一些人而不给其他人，你可能会在邻居之间甚至家庭内部造成真正的紧张关系。

And, inevitably, someone brought up the "give a man a fish" thing.

而且，不可避免地，有人提出了“授人以鱼”的事情。

I would rather teach them how to fish than to fish for them.

我宁愿教他们如何钓鱼，也不愿为他们钓鱼。

This is Alfred Okeyo Adongo with a group called SANA.

我是阿尔弗雷德·奥凯约·阿东戈 (Alfred Okeyo Adongo)，他是一个名为 SANA 的组织。

He will be able to eat well for one year, but beyond that, what else?

他可以吃好一年，但除此之外，还能怎样？

Adongo did see something appealing about the idea of giving money, though.

不过，阿东戈确实看到了捐钱这个想法的一些吸引力。

You could see him wrestling with it.

你可以看到他正在与之搏斗。

And he said this thing you rarely hear anyone say.

他说了这句话，这是你很少听到别人说的。

He said, maybe I'm wrong.

他说，也许我错了。

I'm curious.

我很好奇。

I would want to see how it is working.

我想看看它是如何运作的。

And if it proves to work, we would be very, very grateful.

如果它被证明有效，我们将非常非常感激。

There is one other big reason no one had set up a charity to give money to poor people.

没有人设立慈善机构向穷人捐款还有另一个重要原因。

Until a few years ago, it was really hard to do.

直到几年前，这确实很难做到。

Poor people often don't have bank accounts, so if you wanted to give someone money, you'd have to physically hand it to them, which could mean bringing lots of cash into very remote villages.

穷人通常没有银行账户，所以如果你想给某人钱，你必须亲自交给他们，这可能意味着将大量现金带到非常偏远的村庄。

You'd need security so you didn't get robbed.

你需要安全，这样你才不会被抢劫。

You'd need some sort of ID system to make sure the people lining up are who they say they are.

你需要某种身份识别系统来确保排队的人都是他们所说的人。

All that would be expensive.

所有这些都会很昂贵。

But today in Kenya, if you want to give away money, you don't need bags of cash.

但今天在肯尼亚，如果你想捐钱，你不需要一袋袋现金。

You don't need an armored car.

你不需要装甲车。

You just need a cell phone, any crappy cell phone.

你只需要一部手机，任何蹩脚的手机。

Kenya has this amazing system where you can send money instantly from one phone to another.

肯尼亚拥有一个令人惊叹的系统，您可以立即从一部手机向另一部手机汇款。

It's called M-Pesa.

它的名字叫M-Pesa。

There are M-Pesa stores everywhere in Kenya.

肯尼亚到处都有 M-Pesa 商店。

They have these bright green signs.

他们有这些亮绿色的标志。

The one we went to, "store" isn't really the right word for it.

我们去的那家，“商店”这个词其实不太合适。

It was in an old van.

那是在一辆旧货车里。

It's an old VW bus.

这是一辆老式大众巴士。

Allan Obiero Sure, sure, VW.

艾伦·奥比罗 当然，当然，大众汽车。

My mom had one of these.

我妈妈有其中之一。

Alfred Adongo Ah.

阿尔弗雷德·阿东戈 啊。

We used to go camping in it.

我们过去常常在里面露营。

Alfred Adongo Ah.

阿尔弗雷德·阿东戈 啊。

It's like a snack shop.

这就像一家小吃店。

It's like we're under a little awning here.

就好像我们在一个小遮阳篷下一样。

Except it's a bank.

除非它是一家银行。

David Kestenbaum Inside the van/bank is a woman with a ledger book, a cell phone, and a box of cash.

大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆（David Kestenbaum） 货车/银行内有一位女士，她拿着一本账簿、一部手机和一箱现金。

I'd give her 100 Kenyan shillings-- about $1-- and right away I get a text message saying the money is now in my M-Pesa account.

我会给她 100 肯尼亚先令（约合 1 美元），然后我立即收到一条短信，说这笔钱现在已存入我的 M-Pesa 账户。

And then I'd press a few buttons and send money to the only person in Kenya who I have in my phone, our interpreter, Allan.

然后我会按几个按钮，将钱汇给我手机里唯一在肯尼亚的人，我们的口译员艾伦。

And it works.

它有效。

Sum received.

收到的金额。

Kenya shillings 90 from Jacob Goldstein.

雅各布·戈德斯坦 (Jacob Goldstein) 提供的肯尼亚先令 90。

M-Pesa makes it really easy for GiveDirectly to give away a lot of money.

M-Pesa 让 GiveDirectly 可以轻松地捐赠大量资金。

In Kenya, we met Piali Mukhopadhyay, who works for GiveDirectly.

在肯尼亚，我们遇到了为 GiveDirectly 工作的 Piali Mukhopadhyay。

With just an old laptop and a spreadsheet with people's names and numbers, she can send money to hundreds of people.

只需一台旧笔记本电脑和一个包含人们姓名和电话号码的电子表格，她就可以向数百人汇款。

Violet, Adeline, Celine, Benta, Rose, Risper.

维奥莱特、艾德琳、席琳、本塔、罗丝、里斯珀。

I don't know any of these people, but I know them in the sense that I send them money each month.

我不认识这些人，但我知道他们是因为我每个月都给他们寄钱。

[LAUGHS]

[笑]

This year, GiveDirectly is giving away $5 million.

今年，GiveDirectly 将捐赠 500 万美元。

We wanted to meet some of the people who were getting the money.

我们想见见一些拿到钱的人。

So we got in a car with Piali and we went to find them.

于是我们和 Piali 一起上了车，去找他们。

[ENGINE TURNING OVER] Jacob Goldstein And it turns out, while sending thousands of dollars to people in rural Kenya has recently gotten a lot easier, going to visit them-- still really hard.

[引擎转动]雅各布·戈德斯坦 事实证明，虽然最近向肯尼亚农村地区的人们寄送数千美元变得容易多了，但去探望他们仍然非常困难。

To get to this one village, you drive on the main road past the sign that says "Equator"-- because that's where the Equator is-- and then you turn off onto these increasingly rough dirt roads.

为了到达这个村庄，你沿着主干道行驶，经过写着“赤道”的标志——因为赤道就在那里——然后你拐进这些越来越崎岖的土路。

And of course, there aren't any street signs because, really, there aren't any streets.

当然，这里没有任何路牌，因为实际上根本就没有街道。

No one has an address.

没有人有地址。

You have to stop and ask for directions.

你必须停下来问路。

Eventually, you have to get out of the car and walk down a path.

最终，你必须下车，沿着一条小路走。

[DOG BARKING] It's very green.

[狗吠]它非常绿。

There are trees and birds, little farm plots where people are growing corn.

这里有树木和鸟类，还有人们种植玉米的小农田。

And then, finally, by the side of the path, you find the guy who got the money on his phone.

最后，在路边，你找到了用手机取钱的人。

Nokia.

诺基亚。

David Kestenbaum This is Bernard Ohmondi.

大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 我是伯纳德·奥蒙迪。

He's 25 years old and he's got two kids.

他今年25岁，有两个孩子。

He lives in a small house with mud walls, a dirt floor, and an old couch.

他住在一栋小房子里，墙壁是泥墙，地板是泥土，还有一张旧沙发。

There's no sink because there's no plumbing.

没有水槽，因为没有管道。

There's no running water.

没有自来水。

There's no electricity.

没有电了。

The way it all happened, he says, is that one day the village elder came by with some people he'd never met.

他说，这一切发生的方式是，有一天，村里的老人带着一些他从未见过的人过来。

They explained that they wanted to give him $1,000, which, to him, seemed like a very strange idea.

他们解释说他们想给他 1,000 美元，这对他来说似乎是一个非常奇怪的想法。

[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Allan Obiero I had to be suspicious because in African setup we believe somebody cannot give you such kind of huge money without working for it.

[说外语] 艾伦·奥比罗 (Allan Obiero) 我不得不持怀疑态度，因为在非洲的环境中，我们相信有人不努力工作就无法给你这么大的钱。

Even our own president cannot give you, so I had to be suspicious.

连我们自己的总统都不能给你，所以我不得不怀疑。

But Ohmondi said, fine.

但奥蒙迪说，好吧。

I'm a poor man-- you want to give me money, I'm not going to say no. The visitors gave him a cheap cell phone and then, a while later, he got the text message.

我是一个穷人——你想给我钱，我不会拒绝。访客给了他一部廉价手机，过了一会儿，他收到了短信。

[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Allan Obiero It was sent very early in the morning.

[说外语] 艾伦·奥比罗 (Allan Obiero) 早上很早就发送了。

[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Allan Obiero (LAUGHING) I was still in my bed.

[说外语] Allan Obiero（笑）我还在床上。

I jumped up.

我跳了起来。

[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Allan Obiero My wife asked me, Bernard, what is it?

[说外语] 艾伦·奥比罗 我妻子问我，伯纳德，这是什么？

Then I told her, the guys of GiveDirectly have sent us the money.

然后我告诉她，GiveDirectly 的人已经把钱寄给我们了。

It's here.

就在这里。

"Confirmed you have received 41,000." [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]

“确认您已收到41,000。” [外语]

All over the village that morning, people were getting their first payment from GiveDirectly and having that jump-out-of-bed experience.

那天早上，整个村庄的人们都从 GiveDirectly 收到了第一笔付款，并体验了从床上跳起来的体验。

[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Jacob Goldstein This is one of Bernard's neighbors, Daniel Otieno Ombock.

[说外语] 雅各布·戈德斯坦 这是伯纳德的邻居之一，丹尼尔·奥蒂诺·奥姆博克。

[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Allan Obiero And I told my wife, hey, you also read this message.

[说外语] 艾伦·奥比罗 (Allan Obiero) 我告诉我的妻子，嘿，你也读了这条消息。

[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Allan Obiero Immediately she saw it and read, she burst into laughter.

[说外语] 艾伦·奥比罗 (Allan Obiero) 当她看到并读到它时，她突然笑了起来。

She laughed and told me, now, my husband, what do we do?

她笑着告诉我，现在，我的丈夫，我们该怎么办？

It's worth pointing out just how much money $1,000 is in this village.

值得指出的是，1000 美元在这个村子里值多少钱。

$1,000 is about what one of these families spends in an entire year, so you could think of it as someone coming up and offering to double your salary.

1,000 美元大约是其中一个家庭一整年的花费，因此您可以将其视为有人主动提出将您的工资加倍。

But really, it's a much bigger deal than that.

但实际上，这比这更重要。

Most of the people in this village have no savings at all, so $1,000 is just this unimaginable sum.

这个村子里的大多数人都没有积蓄，1000美元只是一个难以想象的数字。

Daniel had never had this much money at once, nothing close to it.

丹尼尔从来没有一次性拥有过这么多钱，远非如此。

So what do you do when more money than you've ever had in your life suddenly drops onto your cell phone?

那么，当你的手机上突然出现比你一生中拥有的更多的钱时，你会怎么做？

If you're Bernard Ohmondi, you buy one of these.

如果你是伯纳德·奥蒙迪，你就会买其中一件。

[MOTORCYCLE ENGINE] Allan Obiero This motorcycle is called Bajaj Boxer.

[摩托车发动机] Allan Obiero 这辆摩托车被称为 Bajaj Boxer。

[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Allan Obiero It consumes low fuel.

[说外语] Allan Obiero 油耗低。

The motorcycle cost him about $600, and this is not the kind of motorcycle you ride around so everyone will think you're cool.

这辆摩托车花了他大约 600 美元，而且这不是那种你骑着走的摩托车，所以每个人都会觉得你很酷。

Around here, where most people live on dirt paths too narrow for cars, motorcycles are basically used as taxis, and Bernard bought his so he could become a taxi driver.

在这里，大多数人居住在土路上，汽车太窄，摩托车基本上被用作出租车，伯纳德买了他的摩托车，这样他就可以成为一名出租车司机。

It beat his old job.

这击败了他原来的工作。

He used to work as a laborer.

他曾经当过工人。

Often, he would spend all day carrying heavy stones from one place to another.

通常，他会花一整天的时间将沉重的石头从一个地方搬到另一个地方。

That's when he could find work.

到时候他就能找到工作了。

A lot of days, there was no work at all.

很多天，根本没有工作。

Now that he has his motorcycle, he says, his work is much steadier.

他说，现在有了摩托车，他的工作就稳定多了。

His kids used to go hungry and they don't anymore.

他的孩子们过去常挨饿，现在不再挨饿了。

People bought all kinds of things with the money.

人们用钱买了各种各样的东西。

One family bought a little mill to grind corn for people in the village, another started selling soap and cooking oil.

一个家庭买了一个小磨坊，为村里的人磨玉米，另一个家庭开始卖肥皂和食用油。

Daniel Otieno Ombock, the other guy who jumped out of bed when he got the message, bought something he'd always wanted.

丹尼尔·奥蒂诺·奥姆博克（Daniel Otieno Ombock）是另一个收到消息后从床上跳起来的人，他买了一些他一直想要的东西。

[FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Mattress high-density beds.

[外语] 床垫高密度床。

"Mattress high-density bed," it turns out, is basically just a mattress.

事实证明，“床垫高密度床”基本上只是一张床垫。

He used to sleep on a mat on the ground.

他过去常常睡在地上的垫子上。

[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Allan Obiero Now I look like a human being.

[说外语] 艾伦·奥比罗 (Allan Obiero) 现在我看起来像一个人了。

I'm now human being.

我现在是人类了。

What were you before?

你以前是什么？

Allan Obiero (LAUGHING) [SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE]

艾伦·奥比罗（笑）[说外语]

[FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Before, I was an image of a human being, but in real sense, I wasn't a human being.

【外语】以前，我是一个人的形象，但真正意义上，我不是一个人。

[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] David Kestenbaum The thing that really changed his life, he says, was the new roof.

[说外语] 大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 (David Kestenbaum) 他说，真正改变他生活的是新屋顶。

Daniel bought a metal roof to replace his old one, which was made of grass.

丹尼尔买了一个金属屋顶来代替他原来的草屋顶。

He showed it to us.

他向我们展示了它。

And if buying a new roof sounds like something that's nice to have but isn't really going to help Daniel in the long run, you've probably never owned a grass roof.

如果购买新屋顶听起来很不错，但从长远来看并不能真正帮助丹尼尔，那么你可能从未拥有过草屋顶。

Just about everyone we talked to had replaced their grass roofs with metal ones.

几乎我们采访过的每个人都用金属屋顶取代了草屋顶。

I was, yes, very happy.

是的，我非常高兴。

I was very happy about the money.

我对这笔钱感到非常高兴。

This is Caroline Odhiambo, who also bought a metal roof, and who explained why everyone was doing it.

这是 Caroline Odhiambo，她也买了金属屋顶，并解释了为什么每个人都这样做。

First of all, grass roofs are terrible roofs.

首先，草屋顶是很糟糕的屋顶。

They leak, failing to perform what is arguably the single most important job of any roof.

它们漏水，无法完成可以说是任何屋顶中最重要的一项工作。

When it rains, everything you own gets wet, it's hard to sleep, you have to keep moving around to find a dry spot.

下雨的时候，所有的东西都会被淋湿，很难入睡，必须四处走动才能找到干燥的地方。

But also, grass roofs need to be constantly maintained.

而且，草屋顶需要不断维护。

You have to keep replacing the grass and, apparently, you can't just cut any grass from the field.

你必须不断更换草，显然，你不能直接从田里割掉任何草。

You need a special kind of grass, and often you have to pay for it.

你需要一种特殊的草，而且通常你必须付费。

The grass is very expensive.

草很贵。

Because you have to buy grass every year, even three times a year, and it costs a lot.

因为每年都要买草，甚至一年买三次草，而且花费很大。

A metal roof costs more up front-- $200 or $300-- but it can last for more than 10 years, and in the long run, it's way cheaper than a grass roof.

金属屋顶的前期成本更高——200 或 300 美元——但它可以持续 10 年以上，而且从长远来看，它比草屋顶便宜得多。

So buying that metal roof means that, every year, Caroline and the others won't have to spend money buying new grass.

因此，购买金属屋顶意味着卡罗琳和其他人每年都不必花钱购买新草。

It's like they just boosted their income for the next decade.

就好像他们刚刚增加了未来十年的收入。

They'll have more money in their pockets-- money to pay for school fees or food or to buy a cow.

他们的口袋里会有更多的钱——用来支付学费、食物或购买一头牛的钱。

And buying a cow, that was also really common.

买一头牛，这也很常见。

Oh, there.

哦，在那里。

That's your cow.

那是你的牛。

Daniel Otieno Ombock [SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE]

丹尼尔·奥蒂诺·奥姆博克 [外语]

I named her Apala.

我给她起名叫阿帕拉。

Daniel Otieno Ombock [SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE]

丹尼尔·奥蒂诺·奥姆博克 [外语]

It's a female cow.

这是一头母牛。

A very good one, because it produces milk.

非常好的一种，因为它可以产奶。

[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Allan Obiero A lot of milk.

[说外语] 艾伦·奥比罗 (Allan Obiero) 很多牛奶。

[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] David Kestenbaum Daniel told us his cow cost about $400.

[说外语] David Kestenbaum Daniel 告诉我们他的牛价值约 400 美元。

He says it produces 2 liters of milk a day.

他说它每天生产 2 升牛奶。

His family drinks 1 liter and sells 1 liter for about $0.50.

他的家人喝 1 升，1 升的售价约为 0.5 美元。

Caroline also bought a cow, but she says don't think of it as a cow.

卡罗琳还买了一头牛，但她说不要把它当作一头牛。

Think of hers as a bank.

把她想象成一家银行。

The cows are just like bank.

奶牛就像银行一样。

When we put there, it's just as if we have saved it in the cow.

当我们把它放在那里时，就好像我们把它保存在牛身上一样。

And why buy a cow instead of putting the money in the bank?

为什么要买一头牛而不是把钱存入银行呢？

In the bank?

在银行？

You know, money in the bank, sometimes you can just go and take it, small, small, small, small, until it got finished.

你知道，银行里的钱，有时你可以直接去取，小，小，小，小，直到用完为止。

A cow, on the other hand, you can't fritter away a few shillings at a time.

另一方面，一头牛，你不能一次浪费几个先令。

If you want to get your money out of a cow, you have to take your cow to market and sell it.

如果你想从一头牛身上赚到钱，你就必须把你的牛带到市场上卖掉。

All these things people spent money on-- cows, roofs, a motorcycle-- they seem like reasonable choices.

人们花钱买的所有这些东西——奶牛、屋顶、摩托车——看起来都是合理的选择。

In fact, they seemed so reasonable, we started to worry that people were just telling us the good news stories.

事实上，它们看起来很合理，我们开始担心人们只是在告诉我们好消息。

So we asked a different question-- not what did you do with the money, but what did your neighbors do?

所以我们问了一个不同的问题——不是你用这些钱做了什么，而是你的邻居做了什么？

And then we started to hear different stories.

然后我们开始听到不同的故事。

Bernard told us, sure, I spent the money well, but not everybody did.

伯纳德告诉我们，当然，我花了很多钱，但并不是每个人都这样。

[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Allan Obiero There's so many guys who are very careless, and I know as you are going to walk around in some homes, you're going to see guys who misuse their money.

[说外语] 艾伦·奥比罗 (Allan Obiero) 有很多人非常粗心，我知道当您在一些家庭中走动时，您会看到滥用金钱的人。

You'll get that some of them didn't even put up a house.

你会发现他们中的一些人甚至没有盖房子。

[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Allan Obiero They didn't even buy a motorcycle.

[说外语] Allan Obiero 他们甚至没有买摩托车。

[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Allan Obiero Some of them are still staying in their grass thatched houses.

[说外语] 艾伦·奥比罗 (Allan Obiero) 他们中的一些人仍然住在他们的草茅屋里。

[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Allan Obiero You'll just see there's nothing, there's no change in his life, and they misused the money.

[说外语] 艾伦·奥比罗 (Allan Obiero) 你会看到什么也没有，他的生活没有任何改变，他们滥用了这笔钱。

[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Allan Obiero So some of them are drunkards, so they probably used it to buy alcohol.

[说外语] Allan Obiero 所以他们中的一些人是酒鬼，所以他们可能用它来买酒。

Others just spent the whole amount on food.

其他人只是把全部钱花在食物上。

They just ate and became fat and there's nothing to see, nothing has remained of it.

他们只是吃了东西就变胖了，没有什么可看的，什么也没有留下。

Bernard didn't name anyone in particular, but another guy in the village, a guy named Julius, said, my neighbor right over here.

伯纳德没有具体指名道姓，但村里另一个叫朱利叶斯的人说，我的邻居就在这儿。

Look, he still has a thatch roof on his house.

你看，他的房子还有茅草屋顶。

He wasted his money.

他浪费了他的钱。

He was so embarrassed, he didn't even want to talk to you.

他很尴尬，甚至不想和你说话。

He saw your vehicle and he knew that you were around.

他看到了你的车，他知道你就在附近。

He decided to run away.

他决定逃跑。

They're not here now.

他们现在不在这里。

So we went to the neighbor's house and, just like Julius said, he wasn't home.

于是我们去了邻居家，正如朱利叶斯所说，他不在家。

There were two little kids there who told us that their parents had gone into town.

那里有两个小孩告诉我们他们的父母进城了。

It seemed like Julius might be right, so we asked GiveDirectly about the neighbor and a woman named Lydia Tala, who works for GiveDirectly and is from the region, managed to reach him on the phone the next day.

看来朱利叶斯可能是对的，所以我们向 GiveDirectly 询问了邻居的情况，一位名叫莉迪亚·塔拉 (Lydia Tala) 的女士来自该地区，为 GiveDirectly 工作，第二天设法通过电话联系到了他。

He told her he wasn't hiding and he wasn't embarrassed.

他告诉她他没有隐藏，也没有感到尴尬。

He said his first wife had died.

他说他的第一任妻子已经去世了。

He wanted to get remarried, but in this part of Kenya, the groom traditionally has to pay the bride's family.

他想再婚，但在肯尼亚这个地区，传统上新郎必须向新娘的家人支付费用。

So that's what he spent the money on.

所以他的钱就是这么花的。

He spent it on a dowry so he could get remarried, and that's why he still had a thatched roof.

他把这笔钱花在了嫁妆上，这样他就可以再婚，这就是他仍然拥有茅草屋顶的原因。

There was one problem we did see in the village-- the money sometimes created tensions between people who got it and people who did not.

我们在村子里确实看到了一个问题——这笔钱有时会在得到钱的人和没有得到钱的人之间造成紧张关系。

Bernard told us he lost some friends over it.

伯纳德告诉我们，他因此失去了一些朋友。

They'd come by and say, hey, I heard you got a bunch of free money.

他们会过来说，嘿，我听说你有一大笔免费的钱。

Share the wealth.

分享财富。

He told them, sorry, I can't.

他告诉他们，对不起，我不能。

Daniel told us he started staying late on his farm plot to avoid people.

丹尼尔告诉我们，他开始在自己的农场待到很晚，以避开人群。

And if you think it's tough getting free money when your neighbors don't, try being the guy who doesn't get money.

如果你认为很难得到免费的钱，而你的邻居却不能，那就尝试做一个拿不到钱的人。

[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Allan Obiero I was feeling pretty bad.

[说外语] Allan Obiero 我感觉很糟糕。

This is a man named Charles Odhiambo.

这是一个名叫查尔斯·奥迪安博的人。

We ran into him one afternoon while we were walking along a dirt path.

一天下午，我们沿着一条土路行走时遇到了他。

He was herding cattle.

他正在放牛。

He said his neighbors got $1,000, he got nothing.

他说他的邻居得到了 1,000 美元，而他什么也没得到。

[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Allan Obiero Those who benefit from the project are laughing at us, saying that us who are-- we are sort of becoming a bother to them.

[说外语] 艾伦·奥比罗 (Allan Obiero) 那些从该项目中受益的人正在嘲笑我们，说我们正在成为他们的麻烦。

[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Allan Obiero It's been bothering me all the time, because I always ask myself, why did myself not benefit from the project?

[说外语] Allan Obiero 这一直困扰着我，因为我总是问自己，为什么自己没有从这个项目中受益？

The issue came up again when we were talking to a village elder.

当我们与一位村长交谈时，这个问题又出现了。

We were asking him lots of questions and, as we were leaving, he said, can I ask a question?

我们问了他很多问题，当我们离开时，他说，我可以问一个问题吗？

We said sure.

我们说当然可以。

It was a question for Piali from GiveDirectly, who was traveling with us that day, and it was about the people who didn't get the money.

这是那天和我们一起旅行的 GiveDirectly 的 Piali 提出的问题，是关于那些没有拿到钱的人。

He's saying those who are not enrolled in the program, are there plans that they could be enrolled in the future?

他说那些没有参加这个项目的人，将来有计划参加吗？

So, unfortunately at this time, the enrollment is closed for this area.

因此，不幸的是，目前该地区的报名已关闭。

So we typically come to a village, enroll as many people as we can who are eligible, and then we move on.

因此，我们通常会来到一个村庄，招募尽可能多的符合条件的人，然后我们继续前进。

So we wish we could help everyone here, but we're moving on to other places at this point.

因此，我们希望能够帮助这里的每个人，但目前我们正在转向其他地方。

Here's how GiveDirectly decides who gets money.

以下是 GiveDirectly 如何决定谁能获得资金。

They pick a poor village and then they go to the village and find everyone with a grass roof, because people with grass roofs tend to be the very poorest.

他们选择一个贫穷的村庄，然后他们去村子里找到每个人都有草屋顶，因为有草屋顶的人往往是最贫穷的。

Those people get money.

那些人有钱。

Piali says GiveDirectly is aware that handing money to some people in the village and not others is an issue, that it's creating tensions between the super poor and the slightly less poor.

皮亚里说，GiveDirectly 意识到，把钱交给村里的一些人而不是其他人是一个问题，这会造成超级贫困人口和稍微贫困人口之间的紧张关系。

In fact, GiveDirectly is now testing out a new approach where they just pick a poor village and give money to everyone, no matter what kind of roof they have.

事实上，GiveDirectly 现在正在测试一种新方法，他们只选择一个贫困村庄，向每个人提供资金，无论他们拥有什么样的屋顶。

[COW LOWING] Jacob Goldstein We wanted to compare what GiveDirectly is doing with what other, more traditional charities are doing, so we went to another village nearby.

[COW LOWING] Jacob Goldstein 我们想将 GiveDirectly 所做的事情与其他更传统的慈善机构所做的事情进行比较，所以我们去了附近的另一个村庄。

It looked a lot like the GiveDirectly villages, except for one thing-- the cows.

它看起来很像 GiveDirectly 的村庄，除了一件事——奶牛。

The cows we saw in this village were much, much bigger.

我们在这个村子里看到的牛要大得多。

The cows were given to the people in this village by a charity called Heifer International, working with another charity called Send a Cow.

这些奶牛是由一家名为国际小母牛的慈善机构与另一家名为“送一头奶牛”的慈善机构合作送给这个村庄的人们的。

And let's just say right off, these were some very impressive cows.

让我们直接说，这些都是一些非常令人印象深刻的奶牛。

They looked strong and healthy.

他们看起来强壮又健康。

They looked like they could eat the other cows we saw in Kenya.

它们看起来可以吃掉我们在肯尼亚看到的其他牛。

In fact, there was a minute where I thought one of them was going to eat me.

事实上，有一分钟我以为其中一个要吃掉我。

[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] [CORRAL RATTLING]

[说外语] [畜栏嘎嘎声]

[COW LOWING] David Kestenbaum Maybe it's not a good idea.

[COW LOWING] David Kestenbaum 也许这不是一个好主意。

Yeah, maybe it's not a good idea.

是的，也许这不是一个好主意。

We should just step out of the corral and ask her to tell us.

我们应该走出畜栏并请她告诉我们。

Why don't we step back?

我们为什么不退后一步？

The people got these cows told us not only did they get an impressive cow, they also got a lot of really useful training.

获得这些奶牛的人告诉我们，他们不仅得到了一头令人印象深刻的奶牛，而且还接受了很多真正有用的培训。

They were taught how to make sure the cow is getting the right nutrition.

他们被教导如何确保奶牛获得正确的营养。

They were taught how to keep detailed logs to track milk production.

他们被教导如何保存详细的日志来跟踪牛奶产量。

They got visits from someone from Heifer to make sure everything was going well.

小母牛的人来拜访他们，以确保一切顺利。

And people told us all that made a huge difference.

人们告诉我们这一切产生了巨大的变化。

One woman, Grace Ochang, told us her cow produces an enormous amount of milk.

一位名叫格蕾丝·奥昌 (Grace Ochang) 的女士告诉我们，她的奶牛产大量牛奶。

It used to be--?

以前是——？

Grace Ochang One.

格蕾丝奥昌一号。

The local cows.

当地的牛。

1 liter, compared to 14 or 15?

1 升，与 14 升或 15 升相比？

So it's 14 or 15 times better?

那么它是 14 倍还是 15 倍呢？

[LAUGHS] Yes.

[笑]是的。

David Kestenbaum This cow makes her a lot of money.

大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 这头牛让她赚了很多钱。

She sells most of the milk, and there's this other nice thing about cows-- they have babies, and a calf you can sell for hundreds of dollars.

大部分牛奶都是她卖的，而且奶牛还有另外一个好处——它们生孩子，而且一头小牛可以卖几百美元。

As part of the Heifer Send a Cow program, Grace is supposed to give away the first female calf to another family.

作为小母牛送牛计划的一部分，格蕾丝应该将第一头母牛犊送给另一个家庭。

That family will also get training and then pass on their firstborn calf to another family, and so on.

该家庭也会接受训练，然后将他们的头生小牛传给另一个家庭，依此类推。

Which is a nice idea.

这是个好主意。

If you're a donor, you give one cow and you imagine it turning into lots of cows, helping lots of people.

如果你是一名捐赠者，你捐赠了一头牛，你想象它会变成很多头牛，帮助很多人。

And all that training-- you could argue this is one of the most valuable things the developed world has to share.

所有这些培训——你可以说这是发达国家必须分享的最有价值的东西之一。

All that knowledge about how to get the most milk out of a cow and keep it healthy.

所有关于如何从奶牛中获取最多牛奶并保持其健康的知识。

If you just give people money, you're not passing on that knowledge.

如果你只是给人们钱，你就没有传递知识。

So if you want to help poor people in Western Kenya, what's better?

那么，如果你想帮助肯尼亚西部的穷人，什么更好呢？

Should you give them training and a giant, impressive, somewhat-frightening cow, or should you just give them the money instead?

你应该给他们训练和一头巨大的、令人印象深刻的、有点可怕的牛，还是应该给他们钱？

The guys who started GiveDirectly think that question can be answered.

创办 GiveDirectly 的人认为这个问题可以得到解答。

They're great believers in data.

他们非常相信数据。

In fact, Michael Faye, one of the founders, told us that's part of the reason they started GiveDirectly.

事实上，创始人之一迈克尔·费耶 (Michael Faye) 告诉我们，这也是他们创办 GiveDirectly 的部分原因。

We literally just wanted to give away our own money.

我们实际上只是想捐出我们自己的钱。

We don't have a very exotic story of founding the organization.

我们没有什么关于创建该组织的非常奇特的故事。

We were in graduate school, we were studying development economics, we had a little bit extra money to give, and we wanted to know the best place to give it.

我们当时正在读研究生，正在学习发展经济学，我们有一点额外的钱可以捐赠，我们想知道最好的捐赠地点。

Surprisingly, we had no idea.

令人惊讶的是，我们不知道。

Faye and his friends were in grad school and they wanted to give away a little money to help people in the developing world.

费耶和他的朋友们正在读研究生，他们想捐出一点钱来帮助发展中国家的人们。

And despite the fact that they were all studying the economics of the developing world, Michael Faye says they could not figure out which charity to give money to.

尽管他们都在研究发展中国家的经济，但迈克尔·费伊表示，他们无法弄清楚该向哪个慈善机构捐款。

There are two questions that we wanted to answer about charities that we found hard.

我们想回答两个关于慈善事业的问题，但发现很难回答。

One is, where does my dollar go exactly?

一是，我的美元到底去哪儿了？

If I want to trace it, where does it go?

如果我想追踪它，它会去哪里？

And two is, what's the evidence of impact?

第二个问题是，影响的证据是什么？

Not the anecdote, not the story, but real, scientific evidence that would convince a bunch of geeks at Harvard.

不是轶事，不是故事，而是真实的科学证据，可以说服哈佛大学的一群极客。

As geeks, there was one thing that did stand out to them, one place where there was lots of data-- giving money.

作为极客，有一件事对他们来说确实很突出，那就是有大量数据的地方——捐钱。

In the past decade or so, dozens of governments have started giving money directly to millions of their poorest citizens, and the results are pretty remarkable.

在过去十年左右的时间里，数十个政府开始直接向数百万最贫困的公民提供资金，结果非常显着。

In Mexico, families' incomes went up for years after they got the money.

在墨西哥，家庭拿到钱后收入连续多年增加。

In Malawi, HIV rates dropped.

在马拉维，艾滋病毒感染率有所下降。

In South Africa, one study found children ate better and actually grew taller.

在南非，一项研究发现孩子们吃得更好，而且实际上长得更高。

Giving money made kids taller.

给钱让孩子长高。

Faye and his grad student friends read the evidence on giving money and thought, wow.

费耶和他的研究生朋友们读到了捐钱的证据，心想，哇。

This is incredible.

这太不可思议了。

Cash is one of the most researched interventions in development, and there's no one doing it.

现金是发展中研究最多的干预措施之一，但没有人这样做。

There's no charity doing it.

没有慈善机构这样做。

Michael Faye There's no charity doing this exclusively.

Michael Faye 没有一家慈善机构专门做这件事。

And then you started to get this idea that, wow, this could be something quite big.

然后你开始意识到，哇，这可能是一件相当大的事情。

Michael Faye says the whole idea just made sense to him.

迈克尔·费耶 (Michael Faye) 表示，整个想法对他来说很有意义。

Poor people know what they need, so give them money and let them decide how to spend it.

穷人知道他们需要什么，所以给他们钱，让他们决定如何花钱。

Now, in a lot of the programs with those impressive results, people did not just get money with no strings attached.

现在，在许多取得了令人瞩目的成果的项目中，人们不仅仅获得了没有任何附加条件的金钱。

Parents had to do things like take their kids to school or get them vaccinated, and the money usually kept coming for as long as families qualified.

父母必须做一些事情，比如送孩子去学校或让他们接种疫苗，而且只要家庭符合条件，钱通常就会源源不断地到来。

But the GiveDirectly guys thought, let's keep our charity as simple as possible.

但 GiveDirectly 的人认为，让我们的慈善事业尽可能简单。

Just give cash to poor families for about a year, no strings attached.

只需向贫困家庭提供大约一年的现金，不附加任何条件。

To figure out whether giving money with no strings attached is working, GiveDirectly is doing something that's very rare in the charity world-- they're doing an actual experiment.

为了弄清楚不附加任何条件的捐款是否有效，GiveDirectly 正在做一些在慈善界非常罕见的事情——他们正在进行一项实际的实验。

The fancy term for it is a "randomized controlled trial." Basically, you take a bunch of people who are all similar-- in this case, they're all really poor, they all live in thatch roof huts in villages in Western Kenya-- and you randomly put them into one of two groups.

它的奇特术语是“随机对照试验”。基本上，你找了一群都很相似的人——在这种情况下，他们都很穷，他们都住在肯尼亚西部村庄的茅草屋顶小屋里——然后你随机把他们分成两组。

Group one gets money, group two doesn't.

第一组有钱，第二组没有。

Then you follow everybody and you see what happens.

然后你跟随每个人，你就会看到会发生什么。

You compare the two groups so you can tell what difference getting money makes.

你可以比较这两个群体，这样你就可以知道赚钱有什么不同。

The experiment is being done by independent researchers who go out to the villages.

该实验是由前往村庄的独立研究人员进行的。

And they do this incredibly detailed survey with people.

他们对人们进行了这项极其详细的调查。

It takes about six hours per family.

每个家庭大约需要六个小时。

Michael Faye says there are hundreds of questions.

迈克尔·费伊说有数百个问题。

Have health outcomes improved?

健康状况有改善吗？

Has your income improved?

你的收入有改善吗？

Have you been able to feed yourself and have basic nutrition?

您能自己吃饭并获得基本营养吗？

How have family dynamics evolved?

家庭动态是如何演变的？

Do you feel like you have more respect in the family?

你觉得你在家庭中得到了更多的尊重吗？

School attendance, all these sorts of things.

学校出勤率，所有这些事情。

You do those in both cases and you compare.

你在这两种情况下都做了这些，然后进行比较。

They also measure kids' height and weight to see how they're doing.

他们还测量孩子的身高和体重，看看他们的表现如何。

The results from the study are due out later this year and will be made public.

该研究的结果将于今年晚些时候公布并将公布。

This study is not just about figuring out how well giving money works.

这项研究不仅仅是为了弄清楚捐钱的效果如何。

It's also a challenge to other charities.

这对其他慈善机构来说也是一个挑战。

Michael Faye's co-founder, Paul Niehaus, was pretty blunt about it.

迈克尔·费耶 (Michael Faye) 的联合创始人保罗·尼豪斯 (Paul Niehaus) 对此非常直言不讳。

Providing training, flying in experts, paying staff-- all that costs money.

提供培训、聘请专家、支付员工工资——所有这些都需要花钱。

If you think what you're doing is better than just giving that money to people, prove it.

如果你认为你所做的比仅仅把钱捐给人们更好，请证明这一点。

We would like to see organizations make the case that they think they can do more good for the poor with a dollar than the poor could do for themselves.

我们希望看到组织证明他们认为用一美元可以为穷人做更多的事，而不是穷人为自己做的事。

That would be fantastic.

那太棒了。

And I think some may be able to make a convincing case.

我认为有些人也许能够提出令人信服的理由。

But if you go to the websites today, I don't think you're going to see that argument being made.

但如果你今天访问这些网站，我认为你不会看到这样的争论。

Nobody even bothers.

甚至没人打扰。

So for example, if you're trying to figure out which is better, giving cows or cash, you could do an experiment.

例如，如果你想找出给奶牛和现金哪个更好，你可以做一个实验。

Take one village, give the people cows and training, and the next village over, take the money you would have spent on cows and training and just give it to the people.

拿一个村庄，给人们提供奶牛和培训，下一个村庄，把你本来花在奶牛和培训上的钱交给人们。

Paul, not surprisingly, loves this idea.

毫不奇怪，保罗喜欢这个想法。

It'd be great, wouldn't it?

那就太好了，不是吗？

It would be fantastic.

那就太棒了。

That's exactly what the sector needs.

这正是该行业所需要的。

We called up Heifer International to see what they thought of the idea.

我们致电小母牛国际组织，询问他们对这个想法的看法。

We talked to Elizabeth Bintliff, vice president of Heifer's Africa programs.

我们采访了小母牛非洲项目副总裁伊丽莎白·宾利夫(Elizabeth Bintliff)。

How would you feel about a head-to-head trial where one village gets cash, the other village gets the same amount of money spent on cows and training, and we see which does better?

如果进行一场面对面的试验，一个村庄获得现金，另一个村庄获得相同数量的资金用于奶牛和培训，我们看看哪个做得更好，您有何感想？

[LAUGHS] Well, let me say this-- I mean, as an African woman, that sounds to me like a terrible idea.

[笑]好吧，让我这么说——我的意思是，作为一名非洲女性，这对我来说听起来是一个糟糕的主意。

[LAUGHS] Elizabeth Bintliff I mean, it sounds like an experiment, and we're not about experiments.

[笑] Elizabeth Bintliff 我的意思是，这听起来像是一个实验，而我们不是为了实验。

These are lives of real people and we have to do what we believe is correct.

这些都是真实的人的生活，我们必须做我们认为正确的事情。

We can't make experiments with people's lives.

我们不能拿人的生命做实验。

They're just-- they're people.

他们只是——他们是人。

It's too important.

这太重要了。

I think the GiveDirectly response to that would be, we have to do experiments, because that's how we can figure out the very best way to help people.

我认为 GiveDirectly 对此的回应是，我们必须做实验，因为这样我们才能找出帮助人们的最佳方法。

It's just not that linear.

它只是不是那么线性。

It's not an equation.

这不是一个等式。

It's an ecosystem-- that's the only way I can describe it.

这是一个生态系统——这是我描述它的唯一方式。

Is part of what you're saying that you feel like there's a limit to data?

您所说的部分内容是否表明您认为数据存在限制？

Well, data has its value but it cannot capture everything.

嗯，数据有其价值，但它不能捕获一切。

There is a limit to it.

它是有一个限制的。

If you're someone who got into the aid world to help people, the idea of dividing them off into two groups and tossing a coin to see who gets this and who gets that could just feel cold, especially if you've done this work for years and you've seen that you're helping people.

如果你是一个进入援助领域来帮助人们的人，那么将他们分成两组并抛硬币看看谁得到这个、谁得到那个的想法可能会让人感到寒冷，尤其是如果你已经做了这项工作多年并且你已经看到你正在帮助人们。

I was in Zambia in September of last year, and, I was with a woman whose name is Flora, who I will forever remember.

去年九月我在赞比亚，和一位名叫弗洛拉的女士在一起，我将永远记住她。

And she had received a couple of draft animals from Heifer.

她还收到了小母牛送来的几头役畜。

And within two years-- and she had really good records-- within two years, she had more than tripled what she was getting out of that farm.

两年之内——她的记录非常好——两年之内，她从农场获得的收入增加了两倍多。

And for her, it wasn't just about the money.

对她来说，这不仅仅是钱的问题。

I talked to her about what the real value is and she said, I am a proud woman and I can stand up and I can talk and people listen to me and I have a voice.

我和她谈论真正的价值是什么，她说，我是一个自豪的女人，我可以站起来，我可以说话，人们听我的，我有发言权。

And you can't measure that stuff.

你无法测量那些东西。

Sorry, I'm getting emotional.

抱歉，我情绪激动了。

You just can't measure that stuff.

你就是无法测量那些东西。

Elizabeth Bintliff told us Heifer does try to measure certain things about their programs.

伊丽莎白·宾利夫告诉我们，小母牛确实试图衡量他们计划的某些事情。

She said Heifer's worked with independent researchers who study Heifer projects.

她说小母牛与研究小母牛项目的独立研究人员合作。

The University of Western Michigan evaluates Heifer's projects and has found that there is a very positive return to families in terms of income, nutrition, and other indicators-- gender relations, children's welfare, education, and so on.

西密歇根大学对小母牛的项目进行了评估，发现该项目在收入、营养和其他指标——性别关系、儿童福利、教育等方面给家庭带来了非常积极的回报。

Do you know what any of the numbers are from that study?

您知道该研究中的数字是多少吗？

I can send those to you, yes.

我可以把那些寄给你，是的。

Jacob Goldstein But after we talked to Elizabeth, we got an email from Heifer.

雅各布·戈尔茨坦但在我们与伊丽莎白交谈后，我们收到了来自小母牛的电子邮件。

It said, thanks for your interest in those Western Michigan evaluations but, quote, "as the sources cited are unpublished, we're not able to provide further information publicly at this time."

它说，感谢您对西密歇根评估的兴趣，但引用，“由于引用的来源尚未公开，我们目前无法公开提供进一步的信息。”

So we asked Heifer for whatever they could show us about what their projects cost and what they achieve.

因此，我们向 Heifer 询问他们可以向我们展示他们的项目成本和成果。

They told us that, according to a progress report for the project we visited, families make about $950 a year off their cows.

他们告诉我们，根据我们参观的项目的进度报告，家庭每年从奶牛身上赚取约 950 美元。

But they said that number, quote, "is not meant to be considered an analysis of the project.

但他们表示，引述的数字“并不意味着被视为对该项目的分析。

It is information collected at the project level by field staff." And they wouldn't show us the report.

这是现场工作人员在项目层面收集的信息。”他们不会向我们展示报告。

We also asked how much it cost to provide a family with a cow and training.

我们还询问为一个家庭提供一头牛和培训需要花费多少钱。

Heifer told us it varies from family to family, and they couldn't provide a number.

小母牛告诉我们，每个家庭的情况各不相同，但他们无法提供具体数字。

Giving cash with no strings attached clearly has limits.

不附加任何条件的现金捐赠显然是有局限性的。

Even if it works in rural Kenya, it may not work so well in Asia or in urban areas.

即使它在肯尼亚农村地区有效，但在亚洲或城市地区可能效果不佳。

It won't magically fix all the other things that keep people poor.

它不会神奇地解决所有其他导致人们贫穷的问题。

It won't end civil wars or fix corrupt governments or create new vaccines.

它不会结束内战或修复腐败的政府或创造新的疫苗。

But even if it just helps poor people climb up a couple rungs, that would be a huge accomplishment.

但即使它只是帮助穷人攀上几级台阶，那也将是一项巨大的成就。

And here's something else-- until pretty recently, the charity world has been about doing stuff that helps without really thinking, well, how much does it help exactly, and how much does it cost?

还有一件事——直到最近，慈善界一直在做一些有帮助的事情，但没有真正思考，它到底有多大帮助，以及它的成本是多少？

And there does seem to be this shift that's happening, a shift away from glossy brochures and smiling children and happy anecdotes, a shift toward data.

似乎确实正在发生这种转变，从光鲜亮丽的小册子、微笑的孩子和快乐的轶事的转变，转向数据。

Philanthropy is getting nerdier.

慈善事业变得越来越书呆子气。

Last year, the GiveDirectly guys gave a presentation at the corporate charity office of Google, a place where data counts for a lot.

去年，GiveDirectly 团队在 Google 的企业慈善办公室进行了一场演讲，这里的数据非常重要。

In the presentation, they didn't show any pictures of people.

在演示中，他们没有展示任何人物照片。

What they did show were charts and studies and lots of numbers, and the people at Google were impressed.

他们展示的只是图表、研究和大量数据，谷歌的员工对此印象深刻。

In fact, they gave GiveDirectly $2.4 million and told Paul and Michael, you're thinking too small.

事实上，他们给了 GiveDirectly 240 万美元，并告诉保罗和迈克尔，你们想得太小了。

Go figure out how to give money to lots more poor people.

去想办法如何把钱捐给更多的穷人。

Jacob Goldstein and David Kestenbaum for Planet Money, which is a co-production of our program and NPR News.

雅各布·戈德斯坦 (Jacob Goldstein) 和大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 (David Kestenbaum) 为《金钱星球》制作的节目，是我们的节目和 NPR 新闻的联合制作。

Their blog and twice-weekly podcast about economics, but for the rest of us who don't necessarily give a damn about economics, is at npr.org/money.

他们的博客和每周两次关于经济学的播客（但对于我们其他不一定关心经济学的人来说）位于 npr.org/money。

Coming up, a sheriff tries to keep lots of deputies on the street, tries to make their jobs more efficient, tries to bust big illegal drug operations, all by making peace with marijuana growers.

接下来，一名警长试图让大量警员留在街上，试图提高他们的工作效率，试图打击大型非法毒品行动，所有这些都是通过与大麻种植者和解来实现的。

That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.

一分钟后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。

Act Two: Nipped in the Bud Ira Glass This American Life, I'm Ira Glass.

第二幕： 萌芽中的艾拉·格拉斯 在美国生活中，我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Each week on the program, of course, we choose a theme, bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.

当然，每周的节目我们都会选择一个主题，为您带来关于该主题的不同类型的故事。

Today's show, "I Was Just Trying to Help"-- stories of people, you know, doing exactly that.

今天的节目“我只是想帮忙”——人们的故事，你知道，正是这样做的。

We've arrived at Act Two of our program.

我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。

Act Two, Nipped in the Bud.

第二幕，消灭在萌芽状态。

So here's a problem that somebody's gotta step in and help with-- what are we going to do about marijuana, you know?

所以这是一个必须有人介入并提供帮助的问题——我们要对大麻做什么，你知道吗？

Lots of states have made moves to legalize it in various ways in recent years.

近年来，许多州采取了各种措施使其合法化。

It has just made it more complicated.

它只是让事情变得更加复杂。

It's really kind of a mess.

确实有点乱。

Case in point, it's been over a decade since California allowed medical marijuana and they still have not figured out exactly how to handle it.

举个例子，加州允许医用大麻已经十多年了，但他们仍然没有弄清楚如何处理它。

Lots of people with no actual medical need are getting lots of marijuana.

许多没有实际医疗需求的人正在获取大量大麻。

How much you're allowed to grow or buy or possess varies from county to county.

允许种植、购买或拥有的数量因县而异。

State law says that you can possess up to 8 ounces of processed marijuana, but it also says that if your doctor decides you need more, it's OK to have more.

州法律规定，您最多可以持有 8 盎司加工大麻，但也规定，如果您的医生决定您需要更多，那么可以持有更多。

At one point, in Mendocino County, in the northern part of the state, where most of the pot is grown, it was legal to have up to 2 pounds of the stuff.

在该州北部的门多西诺县（大部分大麻种植地），曾经一度允许种植最多 2 磅的大麻。

But if you went to Lake County just right next door with that amount of pot, you were breaking the law.

但如果你带着那么多大麻去隔壁的莱克县，你就违法了。

It's confusing even for cops.

即使对于警察来说，这也令人困惑。

There are situations for cops without any clear path about what you're supposed to do.

在某些情况下，警察对于你应该做什么没有任何明确的指导方针。

This next story is a story about one of those situations and a cop who was trying to do the right thing, trying to help his community as best he can figure out to, in Mendocino County.

下一个故事是关于其中一种情况的故事，一名警察试图做正确的事，试图尽其所能帮助门多西诺县的社区。

Mary Cuddehe tells what happened.

玛丽·卡德赫讲述了发生的事情。

When I sat down with Tom Allman, the elected sheriff of Mendocino County, I asked him what I thought was a pretty straightforward question about marijuana.

当我与门多西诺县当选警长汤姆·奥尔曼坐下来时，我问了他一个关于大麻的非常简单的问题。

Do you have any estimates of how many people are actually growing in Mendocino County?

您是否估计门多西诺县实际有多少人口？

That is the funniest question I have heard in a year.

这是我一年来听到的最有趣的问题。

Do I have any estimate of the percentage or the number of people who are growing in Mendocino County?

我对门多西诺县人口增长的百分比或人数有任何估计吗？

I know I have never thought of that question.

我知道我从来没有想过这个问题。

I've never thought of the answer.

我从来没有想过答案。

When California legalized medical marijuana in 1996, growers started flocking to Mendocino looking to cash in.

1996 年，加州将医用大麻合法化后，种植者开始涌向门多西诺寻求盈利。

Mendocino's a couple of hours north of San Francisco, and picture it for a second-- it's huge, mostly rural, there's lots of dense forest.

门多西诺位于旧金山以北几个小时车程处，想象一下它——它很大，大部分是乡村，有很多茂密的森林。

It's basically the perfect place to hide a pot garden.

它基本上是隐藏盆栽花园的完美场所。

And now there's so much pot growing, it's not even worth guessing how much is there.

现在盆栽太多了，甚至不值得猜测有多少。

All kinds of people are growing, from old hippies tending a few plants in their backyard to-- and this was the big problem-- criminals running massive industrial size pot farms in the forest on both public and private land.

各种各样的人都在成长，从在后院照料一些植物的老嬉皮士，到在公共和私人土地上的森林中经营大规模工业规模盆栽农场的犯罪分子（这是一个大问题）。

Sheriff Allman knew these illegal growers were wreaking havoc in the forest.

奥尔曼警长知道这些非法种植者正在对森林造成严重破坏。

They'd lay miles of pipe to divert water from rivers where salmon run, spray pesticides, and then just leave their trash behind after harvest.

他们铺设数英里长的管道，从鲑鱼出没的河流引水，喷洒杀虫剂，然后在收获后留下垃圾。

And they posed an even bigger threat-- they were armed.

他们构成了更大的威胁——他们携带武器。

At a meeting with the County Board of Supervisors in 2010, residents gave Sheriff Allman an earful.

2010 年，在县监事会的一次会议上，居民们对奥尔曼治安官大骂了一顿。

I believe 11 citizens spoke that morning.

我相信那天早上有 11 位公民发表了讲话。

And of the 11, 8 said something similar to, "In the National Forest this year, I was shot at." Or, "In National Forest this year, I was out grazing my cattle or I was out recreating and someone started shooting at me."

在 11 人中，有 8 人说了类似的话，“今年在国家森林里，我被枪击了。”或者，“今年在国家森林里，我出去放牛，或者出去休闲，有人开始向我开枪。”

And every time a citizen got up and said that, there were five members of the board-- and I was sitting there in uniform, just like this.

每次有公民站起来说这句话时，董事会就有五名成员——而我就穿着制服坐在那里，就像这样。

And every time someone would say, yeah, I was up there, you know, driving around and I got shot at, there were five sets of eyes who all turned and looked at me like, Sheriff, what are you going to do about this?

每当有人说，是的，我在上面，你知道，开车四处走动，我被枪击中时，就有五双眼睛都转过身来看着我，就像，警长，你打算怎么做？

Sheriff Allman actually had an idea, an idea that would free up his staff to go after the bad guys.

奥尔曼警长实际上有一个想法，一个可以让他的工作人员腾出时间去追捕坏人的想法。

His idea was, to get those guys, first bring order to the world of small-time legal growers.

他的想法是，要吸引这些人，首先要给小型合法种植者的世界带来秩序。

He couldn't just ignore the small fry, because no matter how small they were, his office kept getting calls about them.

他不能忽视这些小人物，因为无论他们多么小，他的办公室都会不断接到有关他们的电话。

At the start of each growing season, Allman says the number one 911 call was about the smell of blooming pot gardens.

奥尔曼说，在每个生长季节开始时，第一通 911 电话都是关于开花的盆栽花园的气味。

It can be pretty bad-- it smells like skunk.

它可能非常糟糕——闻起来像臭鼬。

And each time, the Sheriff's Department had to respond, even though county law said it was legal for residents to have up to 25 plants with a doctor's recommendation.

每次，治安部门都必须做出回应，尽管县法律规定，居民在医生的建议下种植最多 25 种植物是合法的。

So people would call the cops, the Sheriff's Office would have to send someone out, check if the grower had a doctor's note, check that the note was legit, count the plants, fill out paperwork.

因此人们会打电话给警察，治安官办公室必须派人出去，检查种植者是否有医生证明，检查该证明是否合法，清点植物数量，填写文件。

Best case scenario, the deputy has spent an hour verifying that everything is perfectly fine.

最好的情况是，副手花了一个小时来确认一切都很好。

It was a waste of Allman's resources and he thought, there has to be a better way.

这浪费了奥尔曼的资源，他认为，必须有更好的方法。

So I came up with the idea of zip ties.

所以我想出了拉链领带的想法。

You know what a zip tie is?

你知道什么是拉链领带吗？

A piece of plastic that has a serial number on it that is about 18 inches long.

一块长约 18 英寸的塑料片，上面有序列号。

And we said, all right, here's what the plan is-- if you have a legitimate recommendation from a doctor and you bring that into the Sheriff's Office, we will give you zip ties, no cost.

我们说，好吧，计划是这样的——如果你有医生的合法推荐，并将其带到治安官办公室，我们将为你免费提供拉链。

And what you're supposed to do is take these zip ties to your house and go to the base of the mature, flowering, female marijuana plant.

你应该做的就是把这些扎带带回家，然后走到成熟、开花、雌性大麻植物的根部。

And that way, when our law enforcement officers come to your house, we could actually look at that serial number and we could track it back to you and say, all right, you were growing these with legitimacy.

这样，当我们的执法人员来到您家时，我们实际上可以查看该序列号，并且可以将其追溯到您并说，好吧，您正在合法种植这些。

Around the same time Allman was looking into zip ties, the County Board of Supervisors was also trying to find a fix.

大约在奥尔曼研究扎带的同时，县监事会也在试图找到解决办法。

They proposed new rules saying that marijuana could only be grown a certain number of feet from schools and churches.

他们提出了新规定，规定大麻只能在距离学校和教堂一定英尺的地方种植。

It couldn't be visible from the road.

从路上看不到它。

You could already grow 25 plants, but the board knew people were growing much more, saying they were running co-ops, growing for other people.

你已经可以种植 25 种植物，但董事会知道人们种植的植物要多得多，并表示他们正在经营合作社，为其他人种植。

So after a big debate, the board decided that co-ops could have up to 99 plants, but there was a catch-- if you wanted to grow that much pot, you were required to sign up for Allman's zip tie program.

因此，经过一番激烈的辩论，董事会决定合作社最多可以种植 99 株植物，但有一个问题——如果你想种那么多盆栽，你就需要报名参加奥尔曼的扎带计划。

And you'd have to pay-- $1,500 to register as a cooperative, $50 per zip tie.

你必须支付 1,500 美元才能注册成为合作社，每条拉链领带 50 美元。

You'd be subject to inspections-- those cost $500.

你将接受检查——检查费用为 500 美元。

And all of that money went straight back to the Sheriff's Department.

所有这些钱都直接回到了治安部门。

So if you've got 99 plants, you're paying around $8,000 a year for the cops to keep tabs on your weed.

因此，如果你有 99 株植物，你每年要支付大约 8,000 美元让警察监视你的大麻。

All these new rules would be rolled into Mendocino County Ordinance 9.31, and that's what everyone called the 99 Plant Program, 9.31.

所有这些新规则都将纳入门多西诺县条例 9.31，这就是大家所说的 99 工厂计划 9.31。

As with any new rule to regulate pot in Mendocino, it attracted a ton of debate and critics.

与门多西诺监管大麻的任何新规则一样，它引起了大量争论和批评。

Even Sheriff Allman's own staff wasn't 100% behind him.

即使是奥尔曼警长自己的工作人员也不是百分百支持他。

What did your deputies think?

你们的代表怎么想？

Tom Allman The sheriff is off his rocker.

汤姆·奥尔曼 警长疯了。

The sheriff is nuts.

警长疯了。

The sheriff is in on this.

治安官正在介入此事。

The sheriff supports marijuana.

治安官支持大麻。

Well, no, I don't.

嗯，不，我不。

You know, I'm sure that if you put a survey out to the deputy sheriffs, "Do you like the zip ties idea?" I surely wouldn't win a majority of the popularity contest.

你知道，我确信如果你向副警长进行一项调查，“你喜欢拉链领带的想法吗？”我肯定不会赢得大部分人气竞赛。

Actually, there was a survey done-- an audit commissioned by the Board of Supervisors.

其实有一个调查，监事会委托的审计。

And in it, some deputies said they supported the program, but others said it was, quote, "potentially criminal friendly, reduces morale, and is poised to bring more crime to the county and potential corruption to the department."

在其中，一些代表表示他们支持该计划，但其他人则表示，该计划“可能对犯罪有利，降低士气，并准备给该县带来更多犯罪，并给该部门带来潜在的腐败。”

The board passed the new rule by a vote of three to two, and once 9.31 got up and running, it worked.

董事会以三比二的投票通过了新规则，9.31 启动并运行后，它就发挥了作用。

The first year, 18 people signed up.

第一年，有 18 人报名。

By the second year, 94 people had stepped forward to register with the Sheriff's Office.

到第二年，已有 94 人主动向治安官办公室登记。

It meant that those people were out in the open, paying fees and-- this was new-- inviting cops into their homes to count their pot.

这意味着这些人公开地支付费用，并且——这是新的——邀请警察到他们家中数钱。

I was very excited to have clear regulations.

我很高兴能有明确的规定。

I feel that overall it was a very healing time for the community.

我觉得总的来说，这对社区来说是一段非常治愈的时期。

Matt Cohen was one of the first farmers to sign up.

马特·科恩是第一批报名的农民之一。

He's known around Mendocino as the poster boy of 9.31.

他在门多西诺周围被称为 9.31 的海报男孩。

He's the guy who would talk to TV reporters and give them tours of his garden.

他是那个会与电视记者交谈并带他们参观他的花园的人。

Matt's operation was called Northstone Organics.

马特的公司名为 Northstone Organics。

His customers could get fresh vegetables, pasture-raised eggs, goat cheese, and 40 varieties of premium buds delivered straight to their door.

他的顾客可以直接将新鲜蔬菜、牧场饲养的鸡蛋、山羊奶酪和 40 种优质花蕾直接送货上门。

Matt ran the operation on a 10-acre property where he and his wife also lived.

马特 (Matt) 在一块 10 英亩的土地上经营该业务，他和他的妻子也住在那里。

They invested a lot of money and took the business seriously.

他们投入了大量资金并认真对待这项业务。

We had 15-plus full time employees and a half dozen seasonal employees.

我们有超过 15 名全职员工和六名季节性员工。

There was a field out back that had the medicine growing that was in a very, very secure security system.

后面有一块种植药物的田地，有一个非常非常安全的安全系统。

We'd even had false alarms go off and the sheriff show up in less than 10 minutes.

我们甚至遇到过误报，警长不到 10 分钟就出现的情况。

Northstone employees made between $19 and $28 an hour.

Northstone 员工的时薪在 19 至 28 美元之间。

They had health insurance and workman's comp.

他们有健康保险和工人补偿。

The county authorities saw Matt's co-op as a model for what regulated pot could be, because, remember, Matt Cohen wasn't just paying his employees, he was paying the county.

县当局将马特的合作社视为大麻管制的典范，因为请记住，马特·科恩不仅向员工支付工资，还向县政府支付工资。

At the time, Mendocino, like counties and states all across the country, was facing huge budget cuts.

当时，门多西诺与全国各地的县和州一样，面临着巨额预算削减。

Allman had already been told that he needed to lay off five deputies.

奥尔曼已经被告知他需要解雇五名副手。

But 9.31 brought in almost a million dollars in the first two years, enough to keep those jobs.

但 9.31 在头两年带来了近 100 万美元的收入，足以保住这些工作。

Allman felt like he had the resources to do what he wanted to do all along-- go after the big guys.

奥尔曼觉得他有资源去做他一直想做的事情——追赶大人物。

We continue our coverage tonight on Operation Full Court Press in the Mendocino National Forest.

今晚我们继续报道门多西诺国家森林的全场新闻行动。

[HELICOPTER FLYING] Mary Cuddehe Allman orchestrated a huge bust in the summer of 2011.

[直升机飞行] Mary Cuddehe Allman 在 2011 年夏天精心策划了一场巨大的半身像。

He called it Operation Full Court Press.

他称之为“全场新闻行动”。

It targeted illegal marijuana farms in the Mendocino National Forest.

它的目标是门多西诺国家森林的非法大麻农场。

It was massive.

它是巨大的。

Allman's forces were there, along with hundreds of agents from five other counties, the state, as well as the DEA and FBI.

奥尔曼的部队以及来自其他五个县、该州以及缉毒局和联邦调查局的数百名特工都在那里。

Over the past two weeks, Operation Full Court Press has seized over 460,000 marijuana plants, raided 56 grow sites, and made a total of 102 arrests.

过去两周，Operation Full Court Press 查获了超过 460,000 株大麻植物，突击搜查了 56 个种植地点，并总共逮捕了 102 人。

Pesticides and dozens of weapons were seized.

警方缴获了杀虫剂和数十件武器。

The raid uncovered miles of irrigation piping, man-made dams, and 46,000 pounds of trash.

这次突袭发现了长达数英里的灌溉管道、人造水坝和 46,000 磅的垃圾。

Even the White House's drug czar commended the raid.

就连白宫的缉毒沙皇也对这次突袭表示赞赏。

Allman was succeeding on two fronts-- he was cracking down on the big, destructive growers and, with 9.31, he could keep an eye on some small time farmers.

奥尔曼在两个方面取得了成功——他打击了具有破坏性的大型种植者，并且通过 9.31，他可以关注一些小型农民。

But the problem, of course, is that even though the state of California has legalized pot in all sorts of ways, the federal government says it's illegal, no matter what.

但问题当然是，尽管加利福尼亚州以各种方式使大麻合法化，但联邦政府无论如何都表示大麻是非法的。

Every year, the DEA raids small farms in Mendocino and other counties that under California law are perfectly legal.

每年，缉毒局都会突击搜查门多西诺和其他根据加州法律完全合法的县的小农场。

Medical marijuana dispensaries across the state have been shut down by the feds.

联邦政府已关闭全州的医用大麻药房。

Allman knew that his program was a violation of federal law, but he's the county sheriff, so he's supposed to enforce state law.

奥尔曼知道他的计划违反了联邦法律，但他是县治安官，所以他应该执行州法律。

So really, in the scheme of things, Allman thought his program was safe because, again, his zip ties were just a way to streamline things, save his deputies some time, and get some money back for all the effort he was putting into marijuana.

所以，实际上，在计划中，奥尔曼认为他的计划是安全的，因为他的拉链只是简化事情的一种方式，节省了他的副手一些时间，并为他在大麻上投入的所有努力获得了一些钱。

Plus, he'd been upfront with the federal government.

另外，他一直与联邦政府坦诚相待。

On August 24, 2011, I spent an hour and a half briefing the US Attorney for Northern California, the FBI supervisor of Northern California, four other sheriffs, and four district attorneys about 9.31.

2011 年 8 月 24 日，我花了一个半小时向美国北加州检察官、联邦调查局北加州主管、其他四名警长和四名地区检察官通报了 9.31 事件的情况。

I told them all the aspects of it.

我告诉了他们事情的方方面面。

This is what we're doing, this is how we're doing it, these are the problems we expect, this is how we're going to take care of the problems.

这就是我们正在做的事情，这就是我们做事的方式，这些是我们预期的问题，这就是我们解决这些问题的方式。

And on that date, I didn't have anybody, especially from the federal government, stand up and say, you can't do that.

在那一天，没有任何人，特别是来自联邦政府的人，站出来说，你不能这样做。

They all said the same thing-- oh, this is interesting.

他们都说了同样的话——哦，这很有趣。

The Department of Justice wouldn't agree to an interview for this story, but a spokesman for Melinda Haag, the US Attorney for the Northern District, says she didn't take the news quietly, that she stood up during that meeting and said, what he's describing is not consistent with federal law.

司法部不会同意就此事接受采访，但美国北区检察官梅琳达·哈格(Melinda Haag)的发言人表示，她并没有平静地接受这一消息，她在那次会议上站起来表示，他所描述的内容不符合联邦法律。

I talked to a couple of other people who were there and their accounts differed slightly.

我和在场的其他几个人交谈过，他们的说法略有不同。

They said that Melinda Haag simply reiterated the federal position, saying marijuana is a violation of federal law.

他们表示，梅琳达·哈格只是重申了联邦立场，称大麻违反了联邦法律。

And the Mendocino County district attorney told me she added, "But I'm not passing judgement at this time on the Mendocino model."

门多西诺县地方检察官告诉我，她补充道，“但我目前不会对门多西诺模式做出判断。”

Then on October 13, 2011, a little over two months after that meeting with federal officials, Allman got a call.

然后，2011 年 10 月 13 日，也就是与联邦官员会面两个多月后，奥尔曼接到了电话。

Just to let you know, Sheriff, we're raiding Matt Cohen's property.

只是想让你知道，警长，我们正在突袭马特·科恩的财产。

And certainly, Matt Cohen can tell you his side of the story of what happened.

当然，马特·科恩可以告诉你他对所发生的故事的看法。

Sure.

当然。

Not my most fun memory.

这不是我最有趣的记忆。

Well, my wife and I were sleeping in our home, in our bed, and I heard the dog start barking.

好吧，我和妻子正在家里的床上睡觉，我听到狗开始吠叫。

And I jumped out of bed and looked out the window, and there was what looked to be federal vehicles driving very fast into our driveway.

我从床上跳起来，向窗外望去，看到一辆看起来是联邦车辆的车飞快地驶进了我们的车道。

I looked to my wife and I said, "We're being raided by the federal government." Because obviously, we never expected to be raided by the Sheriff's Department.

我看着我的妻子说：“我们正在遭到联邦政府的突袭。”因为显然，我们从未预料到会遭到治安部门的突击搜查。

And they showed up at the front door with machine guns drawn.

他们拿着机枪出现在前门。

There was, I think, eight of them.

我想，有八个人。

I said, "Don't shoot the dogs, they're friendly, and I'm cooperating." And I told them there was an alarm that would call the Sheriff's Department if they kicked down the door.

我说：“别开枪打狗，它们很友好，我也很配合。”我告诉他们，如果他们踢开门，就会发出警报，通知治安部门。

They did kick down the door, tripping the alarm, but the DEA told the sheriff not to come.

他们确实踢开了门，触发了警报，但缉毒局告诉警长不要来。

The agents handcuffed Matt and his wife and put them on the front porch.

特工给马特和他的妻子戴上手铐，把他们放在前廊上。

They sat there for eight hours while the agents took chainsaws to their 99 plants and tore through their house.

他们在那里坐了八个小时，而特工们则用电锯砍伐了他们的 99 家工厂，并拆毁了他们的房子。

His computers and cell phones were seized, along with any paperwork related to Allman's zip tie program.

他的电脑和手机以及与奥尔曼的拉链领带计划相关的所有文件均被没收。

I mean, I got the impression that they thought the Sheriff's Department was just as much of a crooks as they thought we were.

我的意思是，我的印象是，他们认为治安部门和我们一样都是骗子。

[LAUGHS]

[笑]

Did somebody say that?

有人这样说过吗？

Matt Cohen Yeah.

马特·科恩 是的。

Yeah, they said it was a sham and that-- I could be paraphrasing, but it seemed like they thought that those guys should be in jail.

是的，他们说这是一个骗局，而且——我可以解释一下，但他们似乎认为那些人应该进监狱。

So when they arrived and you said, look, this is a program regulated by the county, they laughed it off?

所以当他们到达时，你说，看，这是县里规定的项目，他们一笑置之？

Yeah.

是的。

I actually thought that they were at the wrong house.

我真的以为他们走错屋了​​。

I said, do you know who we are?

我说，你知道我们是谁吗？

We're Northstone Organics.

我们是北石有机物。

I mean, you can see on TV who we are, that we're legitimate, that we're licensed, that we're doing everything right.

我的意思是，你可以在电视上看到我们是谁，我们是合法的，我们获得许可，我们做的一切都是正确的。

There's 99 plants here, why are you guys here?

这里有99株植物，你们为什么在这里？

And they didn't respond.

他们没有回应。

Matt wasn't charged, but there are a lot of theories in Mendocino, or at least rumors, about why he was raided.

马特没有受到指控，但门多西诺有很多关于他为何遭到袭击的理论，或者至少是谣言。

Theory number one, almost everyone I talked to said that shutting down the poster boy of 9.31 was payback.

第一个理论，几乎所有与我交谈过的人都说，关闭 9.31 的海报男孩是一种报复。

The county program flew in the face of federal law, was an embarrassment to the US Justice Department, and so the DEA pulled the plug in the most public way possible.

该县的计划违背了联邦法律，让美国司法部感到尴尬，因此缉毒局以尽可能公开的方式终止了这项计划。

Or maybe Allman's deputies, who didn't like the zip ties, had complained to the feds.

或者也许奥尔曼的副手不喜欢束线带，向联邦调查局投诉。

The most interesting theory I heard was from John McCowen, another member of the Board of Supervisors.

我听到的最有趣的理论来自另一位监事会成员约翰·麦考恩（John McCowen）。

He had worked closely with the sheriff to develop 9.31 and he thinks that when the Feds came to Mendocino to help with Operation Full Court Press, that big bust in the forest, they didn't like what they were seeing.

他与治安官密切合作制定了 9.31，他认为当联邦调查局来到门多西诺协助开展“全场新闻行动”（Operation Full Court Press）时，即森林中的大型半身像，他们并不喜欢所看到的情况。

They felt like they'd stepped into the Wild West.

他们感觉自己仿佛走进了狂野的西部。

People were openly growing marijuana with a rubber stamp from the sheriff.

人们在治安官盖有橡皮图章的情况下公开种植大麻。

In Matt Cohen's online newsletter, for instance, he advertised his product this way-- "Pedigree medical cannabis plants growing this week on our Mendocino County Sheriff's Department permitted farm." You can imagine how that sort of thing would rankle the DEA.

例如，在马特·科恩的在线时事通讯中，他这样宣传自己的产品——“本周在我们门多西诺县治安部门允许的农场种植纯正医用大麻植物。”你可以想象这种事情会如何激怒美国缉毒局。

County Supervisor John McCowen says he thinks federal authorities wanted to make sure no other county adopted the Mendocino model, which was getting a lot of attention.

县主管约翰·麦考恩 (John McCowen) 表示，他认为联邦当局希望确保没有其他县采用门多西诺模式，这一模式引起了广泛关注。

I do have it on good authority that the federal attorney and others were actually getting calls saying, "We understand what Mendocino County is doing is working very well.

我确实有可靠消息称，联邦检察官和其他人实际上接到电话说：“我们知道门多西诺县正在做的事情非常有效。

How do we do that?"

我们该怎么做呢？”

Again, the Department of Justice wouldn't speak with us, but they did confirm that the Northern District got at least one call along these lines and that they replied that the Mendocino program was a violation of federal law.

司法部再次拒绝与我们交谈，但他们确实确认北区至少接到了一个类似的电话，并且他们回复称门多西诺计划违反了联邦法律。

Sheriff Allman told me he had also spoken to half a dozen sheriffs from other counties, both inside and outside California, who all wanted to know how the program worked.

奥尔曼警长告诉我，他还与来自加州内外其他县的六名警长进行了交谈，他们都想知道该计划是如何运作的。

Shortly after the raid on Matt's co-op, the County Board of Supervisors decided the pressure from the federal government was too much.

马特的合作社遭到突袭后不久，县监事会认为来自联邦政府的压力太大。

They amended Ordinance 9.31, shut the program down.

他们修改了第 9.31 号条例，关闭了该计划。

You couldn't grow 99 plants anymore.

你不能再种植 99 株植物了。

You could still buy zip ties, you could still grow 25 plants if you had a letter from the doctor, but the inspections, the fees, the oversight-- everything that had made the small farmers feel protected and Allman feel like he was making some progress-- all of that was gone.

你仍然可以购买扎带，如果你有医生的证明，你仍然可以种植 25 株植物，但是检查、费用、监督——所有让小农感到受到保护、让奥尔曼感觉自己正在取得一些进步的一切——所有这些都消失了。

Even so, the Department of Justice subpoenaed the county, demanding they hand over all records of the 9.31 program, including the names of everyone who participated.

即便如此，司法部还是传唤了该县，要求他们交出 9.31 计划的所有记录，包括所有参与者的姓名。

It really freaked people out.

着实把人吓坏了。

What exactly was the federal government planning to do with that information?

联邦政府究竟计划如何处理这些信息？

Eventually, last spring, the two sides struck a deal.

最终，去年春天，双方达成协议。

The county handed over some records, but withheld the names of the farmers.

该县移交了一些记录，但隐瞒了农民的姓名。

Mendocino's experiment is over, and for Allman, it means that he's right back where he started.

门多西诺的实验结束了，对于奥尔曼来说，这意味着他又回到了起点。

Think of it.

想一想吧。

Two years ago, people were paying cops $500 a month to come to their house, count the number of marijuana plants, make sure they weren't stealing water, make sure they weren't using dangerous environmental practices and they weren't spilling diesel.

两年前，人们每月付给警察 500 美元，让他们上门清点大麻植物的数量，确保他们没有偷水，确保他们没有采取危险的环保做法，也没有泄漏柴油。

I mean, what better solution is there than to have this open communication?

我的意思是，还有什么比这种开放式沟通更好的解决方案呢？

But we're not going to have that now.

但我们现在不会这样了。

In Mendocino, you can still walking into Sheriff Allman's office and buy zip ties.

在门多西诺，您仍然可以走进奥尔曼警长的办公室购买拉链领带。

When I talked to him earlier this year, he figured no one would bother, not after the raid and the federal subpoena.

当我今年早些时候与他交谈时，他认为没有人会打扰，尤其是在突袭和联邦传票之后。

He hadn't even ordered a resupply.

他甚至没有下令补给。

But surprisingly, 69 people have bought zip ties so far this year.

但令人惊讶的是，今年到目前为止已有 69 人购买了拉链领带。

He just sold some the other day.

他前几天刚卖了一些。

That's 69 people who know their pot won't get confiscated by the sheriff.

这 69 个人知道他们的大麻不会被治安官没收。

They can't be so sure about the DEA.

他们对 DEA 不太确定。

Mary Cuddehe.

玛丽·卡德赫。

[MUSIC - "MARIJUANA, THE DEVIL FLOWER" BY JOHNNY PRICE]

[音乐 - 约翰尼·普莱斯的《大麻，恶魔之花》]

Credits Ira Glass Our program was produced today by Jonathan Menjivar with Alex Blumberg, Ben Calhoun, Sarah Koenig, Miki Meek, Lisa Pollak, Brian Reed, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.

图片来源：Ira Glass 我们今天的节目由 Jonathan Menjivar 与 Alex Blumberg、Ben Calhoun、Sarah Koenig、Miki Meek、Lisa Pollak、Brian Reed、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 共同制作。

Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.

我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。

Production help from Dana Chivvis.

Dana Chivvis 提供制作帮助。

Seth Lind is our operations director, Emily Condon's our production manager, Elise Bergerson's our administrative assistant, Adrianne Mathiowetz runs our website.

Seth Lind 是我们的运营总监，Emily Condon 是我们的生产经理，Elise Bergerson 是我们的行政助理，Adrianne Mathiowetz 负责运营我们的网站。

Research help from Michelle Harris and Julie Beer.

米歇尔·哈里斯和朱莉·比尔的研究帮助。

Music help from Damien Graef, from Rob Geddis.

Damien Graef 和 Rob Geddis 提供音乐帮助。

[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, thisamericanlife.org.

[致谢] 我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。

This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.

《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。

Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Torey Malatia.

一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia。

And he called everybody on staff to find out how they all spent this year's annual bonus.

他还给所有员工打电话，询问他们今年的年度奖金是如何花掉的。

He just gave me a report--

他刚刚给了我一份报告——

--so some of them are drunkards, so they used it to buy alcohol.

——所以他们中有些人是酒鬼，所以他们用它来买酒。

Others just spent the whole amount on food and became fat.

其他人只是把所有的钱都花在了食物上，然后就变胖了。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Back next week with more stories of This American Life.

下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

[MUSIC - "MARIJUANA, THE DEVIL FLOWER" BY JOHNNY PRICE]

[音乐 - 约翰尼·普莱斯的《大麻，恶魔之花》]

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。