493: Picture Show - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #493 | April 19, 2013 493: Picture Show Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 493 集 | 2013 年 4 月 19 日 493：图片展示 注：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass It's been a week for looking at pictures, of the bombings in Boston, of course, the aftermath, the FBI suspects, everything that's happened since.
序言 艾拉·格拉斯 这周一直在看照片，波士顿爆炸案，当然，还有后果，联邦调查局怀疑，以及此后发生的一切。
By Wednesday, a few people in our office were going onto Reddit, the online discussion board, to read the conversation where amateurs were scouring through those crowd photos of hundreds of faces, searching for anybody who might be a bomber.
到周三，我们办公室的一些人开始在在线讨论版 Reddit 上阅读对话，业余爱好者在数百张面孔的人群照片中搜寻，寻找任何可能是炸弹袭击者的人。
Zach Barnett was one of those amateurs.
扎克·巴尼特 (Zach Barnett) 就是其中一位业余爱好者。
And he was a skeptic.
他是一个怀疑论者。
He started Tuesday morning.
他周二早上开始工作。
When posters started chattering about a guy in the crowd that they nicknamed Music Man, a guy who was wearing headphones, a black jacket with a huge black backpack-- it was the huge backpack that made him suspicious-- Zach was the person who alerted everyone.
当海报开始谈论人群中一个被他们昵称为“音乐人”的人时，这个人戴着耳机，穿着黑色夹克，背着巨大的黑色背包——正是这个巨大的背包让他产生了怀疑——扎克就是那个让所有人警觉的人。
There was an image after the bombing had taken place with tons of ambulances on the scene.
爆炸发生后有一张图片，现场有大量救护车。
And there was what seemed to be Music Man with his backpack.
还有一个似乎是音乐人，背着背包。
And so this seemed to suggest that he was not responsible.
所以这似乎表明他没有责任。
Because if he has the backpack after the blast, obviously, it's not his backpack that caused the blast.
因为如果他在爆炸后有背包，那么显然不是他的背包造成了爆炸。
Right.
正确的。
Right.
正确的。
Ira Glass After this display of level headedness, Zach, who is a college student, was asked to be one of the moderators of the discussion on Reddit.
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 在表现出冷静之后，大学生扎克被邀请担任 Reddit 讨论的主持人之一。
There's been some criticism of Reddit for going through Boston Marathon photos looking for suspects.
Reddit 因通过波士顿马拉松照片寻找嫌疑人而受到一些批评。
The Atlantic called it vigilantism and made it seem like these were crazed nerds on a delusional CSI witch hunt.
《大西洋月刊》称其为自卫行为，并让这些人看起来像是一群疯狂的书呆子，正在进行一场妄想性的 CSI 政治迫害。
And you definitely can find quotes that make it seem that way.
你肯定可以找到让它看起来如此的引言。
But if you read the full discussions, you'll see how careful people are trying to be, very aware of the dangers of accusing an innocent person of being a bomber.
但如果你阅读完整的讨论，你就会发现人们是多么小心，他们非常清楚指责无辜者是炸弹袭击者的危险。
It's a big part of the discussion.
这是讨论的一个重要部分。
When somebody posts the Facebook page of one potential suspect, people declared, this has gone too far.
当有人发布一名潜在嫌疑人的 Facebook 页面时，人们宣称，这太过分了。
The post is deleted.
该帖子已被删除。
The poster's banned.
该海报已被禁止。
And Zach was far from the only skeptic.
扎克并不是唯一的怀疑论者。
Take, for example, the discussion of a pair of guys they called the Backpack Brothers because one of them had a big, heavy looking black backpack.
以一对被称为“背包兄弟”的人为例，因为其中一个人有一个又大又重的黑色背包。
And he was wearing a white hat with some glasses on top of the hat.
而且他戴着一顶白色的帽子，帽子上还戴着一副眼镜。
And then there was another man in blue track suit and running shoes, which isn't exactly out of place at a marathon.
然后还有另一个穿着蓝色运动服和跑鞋的男子，这在马拉松比赛中并不完全不合适。
Yeah.
是的。
He had a duffel bag over his shoulder.
他肩上挎着一个行李袋。
There were a couple things about the Backpack Brothers photos that made Zach feel like of all the pictures, these had the greatest likelihood to be real suspects.
关于背包兄弟的照片，有几件事让扎克觉得在所有照片中，这些照片最有可能是真正的嫌疑人。
Somebody linked to this ingenious photo which superimposed the shot of the Backpack Brothers on the sidewalk before the explosion with a picture of the same stretch of sidewalk after the bombs went off, with a big red circle drawn at the spot where the bombs supposedly had blown up.
有人链接到这张巧妙的照片，该照片将爆炸前背包兄弟在人行道上的照片与炸弹爆炸后同一段人行道的照片叠加在一起，并在据称炸弹爆炸的地方画了一个红色的大圆圈。
And damned if it wasn't exactly next to where those two guys had been standing.
如果它不是正好位于那两个家伙刚才站的地方的话，该死的。
And even more damning were other photos taken still before the blast.
更令人震惊的是爆炸前拍摄的其他照片。
Where one of them definitely didn't have his bag.
其中一人肯定没有带包。
The person with the white hat did not have his bag with him.
戴白帽子的人没有带包。
And the other one, you couldn't really tell if he did or didn't.
而另一件事，你真的无法判断他是否做了。
And so the speculation is they had bags before the blast.
因此推测他们在爆炸前有袋子。
And then later, still before the blast, they had left their bags somewhere.
后来，就在爆炸发生之前，他们把包留在了某个地方。
Exactly.
确切地。
And based on the time of when the images were taken, which you could see the marathon clock in the photo, it did line up with roughly when people thought that the bags had been dropped.
根据拍摄图像的时间（你可以在照片中看到马拉松时钟），它确实与人们认为袋子已掉落的时间大致一致。
And so this led people to really be suspicious of these two.
所以这导致人们对这两个人产生了真正的怀疑。
But by Wednesday, people at Reddit were discussing the details that would make you less suspicious of these two.
但到了周三，Reddit 上的人们正在讨论一些细节，这些细节可以让你减少对这两个人的怀疑。
Like, for example, the duffel bag was blue.
例如，行李袋是蓝色的。
Authorities never mentioned a bomb in a blue bag.
当局从未提及蓝色袋子里有炸弹。
Or, most important, except for the white cap, these two guys did not match the description of the suspects that authorities started to circulate by Wednesday afternoon.
或者，最重要的是，除了白帽子之外，这两个人与周三下午当局开始散发的嫌疑人描述不符。
So by the end of the day Wednesday, most posters on Reddit, including Zach, seemed to be moving away from the Backpack Brothers as possible bombers.
因此，到周三结束时，Reddit 上的大多数发帖者（包括扎克）似乎不再将背包兄弟视为可能的轰炸机。
Of course, this wasn't true everywhere.
当然，并非所有地方都是如此。
On Thursday morning, the New York Post blasted a photo of the Backpack Brothers across its front page-- it's the entire front page-- with a screaming headline, "Bag Men.
周四早上，《纽约邮报》在头版刊登了一张背包兄弟的照片——整个头版——标题令人尖叫：“背包人。”
Feds seek these two pictured at Boston Marathon." Somehow, the Post didn't notice that these two men do not match the description of the suspects that was circulating by then.
联邦政府正在寻找这两个人在波士顿马拉松比赛中的照片。”不知何故，《华盛顿邮报》没有注意到这两个人与当时流传的嫌疑人描述不符。
By Thursday afternoon, authorities had publicly declared that these two men were not suspects.
到周四下午，当局公开宣布这两人不是嫌疑人。
Photos of the real suspects were released.
真正嫌疑人的照片被公布。
The Backpack Brothers turned out to be a high school sophomore, who was very surprised at all this attention, and his friend.
背包兄弟原来是一名高中二年级学生，他对如此多的关注感到非常惊讶，还有他的朋友。
And on Thursday when I talked to Zach about all the various photos, he was super careful not to jump to any conclusions, which, of course, is difficult.
周四，当我与扎克谈论所有不同的照片时，他非常小心，不要仓促下任何结论，这当然很困难。
It just is so hard to look at these pictures without imposing a story on it.
观看这些照片时很难不将故事强加在其上。
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
You just can't help but read the photograph, not just see it for what it is but to read a story on to it.
你会情不自禁地阅读这张照片，不仅仅是看它的本质，而是读它上面的故事。
Like here at our office this week, it was hard for all of us to not feel like, oh, look, look, it's him.
就像本周在我们的办公室一样，我们所有人都很难不觉得，哦，看，看，是他。
It must be him.
一定是他。
This must be the guy.
这一定是那个家伙。
And were you having feelings like that, too?
而你也有这样的感受吗？
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
You can't help it.
你无能为力。
When people are posting all these images, and there's this person circled, and there's an arrow drawn from this person to this person saying, oh, these two are working together.
当人们发布所有这些图像时，这个人被圈起来，并且从这个人到这个人画了一个箭头，说，哦，这两个人正在一起工作。
And the danger is not even just that people are going to speculate and jump to conclusions that are unwarranted, but really what's going to happen when you jump to unwarranted conclusions.
危险不仅在于人们会猜测并得出毫无根据的结论，还在于当你得出无根据的结论时会发生什么。
Who's going to be affected?
谁会受到影响？
A picture is what you think it means.
一张图片就是你所认为的意思。
It is not self-evident.
这不是不言而喻的。
And today on our radio show, we have two stories where there are pictures.
今天在我们的广播节目中，我们有两个有图片的故事。
And in each of them, whether you think the pictures are worrisome and troubling depends on what you believe about the story of how they were made.
在每张照片中，你是否认为这些照片令人担忧和不安取决于你对它们的制作故事的看法。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.
这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Two mysteries will unfold.
两个谜团即将揭开。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Photo Op.
第一幕，摄影作品。
It's no surprise that people disagree about how to interpret the photos and videos in this first story, because the photos and videos were shot in a part of the world where people disagree about how to interpret so, so many things.
毫不奇怪，人们对如何解释第一个故事中的照片和视频存在分歧，因为这些照片和视频是在世界的某个地方拍摄的，人们对如何解释如此多的事情存在分歧。
Nancy Updike tells the story.
南希·厄普代克讲述了这个故事。
I saw a video a while back that caught my attention.
前段时间看到一个视频，引起了我的注意。
It's short, a shaky handheld video.
它很短，是一个不稳定的手持视频。
And it shows an interaction between Israeli soldiers and a Palestinian family where there is no violence, no yelling, no confrontation.
它展示了以色列士兵和巴勒斯坦家庭之间的互动，没有暴力，没有喊叫，没有对抗。
In the video, five Israeli soldiers show up at the house of a Palestinian family in a village named Nabi Saleh.
视频中，五名以色列士兵出现在一个名叫纳比·萨利赫的村庄的一个巴勒斯坦家庭的家中。
It's around 1:00 in the morning.
现在是凌晨 1:00 左右。
The father answers the door, and he starts to film what's happening.
父亲开了门，他开始拍摄发生的事情。
And the soldiers let him film.
士兵们让他拍摄。
The soldier in charge asks the man in Hebrew if there are any children in the house and how many.
负责的士兵用希伯来语询问男子家里是否有孩子以及有多少。
[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Man [SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
[说外语] 男人[说外语]
[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Nancy Updike The man's got four children, three of whom are here at the house now.
[说外语] 南希·厄普代克 这个男人有四个孩子，其中三个现在在家里。
The little girl is at her grandfather's.
小女孩在她祖父家。
How many sons, the soldier asks.
士兵问，有多少个儿子。
Three.
三。
[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Man [SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
[说外语] 男人[说外语]
[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Nancy Updike The soldier asks to see the two oldest boys, 15 years old and almost 12 years old.
[说外语] 南希·厄普代克 士兵要求见见两个最大的男孩，一个 15 岁，一个快 12 岁。
The man says they're asleep.
男人说他们睡着了。
And the soldier asks him to wake them up, please.
士兵请他叫醒他们。
[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Soldier [SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
[说外语] 士兵[说外语]
The man goes into the next room and calls his kids' names a couple of times.
该男子走进隔壁房间，喊了几遍孩子们的名字。
Again, it's around 1:00 in the morning.
又是凌晨 1:00 左右。
The kids lift up their heads, blink in the light, and slowly get out of bed.
孩子们抬起头，在灯光下眨眼睛，然后慢慢下床。
They stand next to each other in the doorway of their room looking at the soldiers, who are in full gear, helmets, guns.
他们并排站在房间门口，看着士兵们，他们全副武装，戴着头盔，拿着枪。
The younger boy has dark blond hair, and his face is a little puffy with sleep.
小男孩有一头深金色的头发，他的脸因为睡得有点浮肿。
When the soldier in command says hello, he says his name, Muhammad.
当指挥官打招呼时，他会说出自己的名字，穆罕默德。
[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] (SUBJECT) MUHAMMAD TAMIMI Muhammad.
[说外语]（主题）穆罕默德·塔米米·穆罕默德。
The soldiers write down the boys' names and ID numbers.
士兵们记下男孩们的名字和身份证号码。
And then they take a photo of each kid.
然后他们给每个孩子拍一张照片。
They've already taken a photo of the father.
他们已经给父亲拍了一张照片。
During the whole process, no one offers or asks for a warrant, a charge, an explanation.
在整个过程中，没有人提出或要求搜查令、指控或解释。
As the soldiers leave, the one in command glances at another door in the building and says, any more children?
当士兵们离开时，指挥官看了一眼大楼的另一扇门，说，还有孩子吗？
The father says no.
父亲说不。
The only question the father asks is, can he go with the soldiers and keep filming while they go to the next house?
父亲问的唯一问题是，他可以和士兵们一起去隔壁房子继续拍摄吗？
They say no at first.
他们一开始说不。
And he says, why not?
他说，为什么不呢？
So they let him.
所以他们就让他了。
I watch the unedited video he made that night, and I counted 12 more houses that the soldiers went to, waking up kids and photographing them.
我看了他那天晚上制作的未经编辑的视频，我数了数士兵们还去了 12 所房子，叫醒了孩子们并给他们拍照。
The undrama of this video is mesmerizing, the routineness, like watching a series of traffic stops.
这段视频的平淡无奇令人着迷，例行公事，就像观看一系列的交通堵塞。
I've been coming to the West Bank reporting on and off for 15 years.
15 年来，我一直断断续续地前往约旦河西岸进行报道。
And I've been here when the routine was suicide bombings in Israel and in the West Bank, tanks and daily shootings.
当以色列和约旦河西岸的自杀式爆炸、坦克和日常枪击事件司空见惯时，我就来到了这里。
But it hasn't been like that for a long time.
但已经很久没有这样了。
And the army taking photos of kids at night is something I'd never seen before.
军队在夜间给孩子们拍照是我以前从未见过的。
Watching the video, I felt like it was a window into this moment in the West Bank, this period of quasi-stability.
观看视频，我觉得这是了解西岸这一时刻、这段准稳定时期的一个窗口。
Israel went into the West Bank 46 years ago.
以色列46年前进入约旦河西岸。
What does it take to control so many people so effectively for so long?
怎样才能如此有效地控制这么多人这么长时间？
And I know that lots of Americans feel like they have no right to ask questions about what Israel does, because they're not there, and they don't know what it's like to live with the dangers Israelis live with.
我知道很多美国人觉得他们没有权利询问以色列的所作所为，因为他们不在那里，他们不知道以色列人生活在危险之中是什么感觉。
But what Americans never seem to realize is how much Israelis ask questions, including about this video of soldiers photographing kids.
但美国人似乎从未意识到以色列人提出了多少问题，包括关于士兵拍摄儿童的视频。
The video aired on Israel's Channel 10 and also made the rounds on Israeli Twitter feeds and Facebook pages.
该视频在以色列第 10 频道播出，并在以色列 Twitter 和 Facebook 页面上流传。
And plenty of people who saw the video said, well, the army's got to do what the army's got to do.
很多看过视频的人都说，好吧，军队必须做军队必须做的事情。
But others were disturbed.
但其他人却感到不安。
They had questions.
他们有疑问。
And why shouldn't they?
他们为什么不应该呢？
It's their sons and daughters who are in the West Bank or wherever else right after high school for years of mandatory military service.
他们的儿子和女儿高中毕业后就在约旦河西岸或其他地方服义务兵役多年。
So I've got a question.
所以我有一个问题。
What are these nighttime photos?
这些夜间照片是什么？
The photos at night aren't new.
晚上的照片并不新鲜。
It's a tactic that comes and goes, part of something the Israeli military calls mapping.
这是一种反复出现的战术，是以色列军方所谓的测绘的一部分。
This is mapping.
这就是映射。
In the middle of the night, the guy is in his pajamas.
半夜，那家伙还穿着睡衣。
Yehuda Shaul did his army service during the Second Intifada years ago.
耶胡达·沙乌尔（Yehuda Shaul）在几年前的第二次起义期间服过兵役。
But he did a lot of mapping.
但他做了很多测绘工作。
And he's talked to a lot of other soldiers about it.
他和很多其他士兵谈论过这件事。
He's showing me a snapshot taken by a soldier in 2008 in the West Bank city of Nablus.
他给我看了一张 2008 年一名士兵在约旦河西岸城市纳布卢斯拍摄的快照。
And the photo shows an older Palestinian man, who seems to be in his pajamas, sitting at a table in his house across from an Israeli soldier who's writing something down on a piece of paper.
照片中，一名年长的巴勒斯坦男子似乎穿着睡衣，坐在自家的一张桌子旁，对面是一名以色列士兵，后者正在纸上写下一些东西。
Yeah, basically, the ID numbers of the people who live, the names, drawing who works where, cell phones, all the kind of stuff that you collect in mapping.
是的，基本上，就是居住者的身份证号码、姓名、绘图、工作地点、手机，以及您在地图中收集的所有信息。
Mapping is actually a general term that can mean a lot of different things-- photographs, diagrams of the layout of a house, where the windows and balconies are, what doors lead to which streets.
地图实际上是一个通用术语，可以表示很多不同的东西——照片、房屋布局图、窗户和阳台在哪里、哪些门通向哪些街道。
Mapping's not violent, and months can go by without any mapping.
绘制地图并不暴力，几个月都没有绘制地图。
So it's not something that usually makes the news.
所以这通常不会成为新闻。
It's just one more part of the overall routine in the West Bank these days.
这只是目前约旦河西岸整体例行公事的一部分。
The mapping and nighttime photos started in Nabi Saleh, the village from the video you heard, a few months after the villagers began doing a weekly protest march, according to residents.
据居民称，测绘和夜间照片是在纳比萨利赫村开始的，几个月前，村民们开始每周举行一次抗议游行。纳比萨利赫村是视频中的村庄。
These protests are also part of the routine in the West Bank.
这些抗议活动也是西岸例行公事的一部分。
They happen every Friday.
它们每周五发生。
They happen in lots of villages.
它们发生在很多村庄。
They've been happening in different villages for years.
这些事多年来一直在不同的村庄发生。
And there's practically a script.
实际上有一个脚本。
In Nabi Saleh, the day I was there, there was a march, chanting.
在纳比萨利赫，我在那里的那天，那里举行了游行，高呼口号。
The villagers faced off against some soldiers.
村民们与一些士兵对峙。
And after an hour or so of this, a lot of the adults left.
大约一个小时后，很多成年人都离开了。
But the bulk of what happens every Friday is what comes next, kids throwing stones.
但每个周五发生的大部分事情都是接下来发生的事情，孩子们扔石头。
It goes on for hours.
它持续了几个小时。
It's become the Friday afternoon activity for a lot of kids and teenagers in Nabi Saleh.
这已成为纳比萨利赫许多儿童和青少年的周五下午活动。
Teens sit with friends by the side of the road talking and rough housing and then occasionally picking up a stone throwing it or launching it with a slingshot.
青少年和朋友坐在路边聊天和粗暴的住房，然后偶尔捡起一块石头扔出去或用弹弓发射它。
The soldiers, on their side, respond with tear gas, rubber coated metal bullets.
士兵们则用催泪瓦斯和涂有橡胶的金属子弹回应。
[SHOT SOUND] Two men have died from injuries they received at protests in Nabi Saleh in the last year and a half.
[枪声] 两名男子在过去一年半的纳比萨利赫抗议活动中受伤死亡。
But today, there's a lot of pretending to be fearless.
但今天，有很多人假装无所畏惧。
One kid made a joke of acting like he'd been hit.
一个孩子开玩笑说他被打了。
[YELLS].
[喊叫]。
Nancy Updike At this point, throwing stones is one of the most common charges against Palestinian kids who are arrested in the West Bank.
南希·厄普代克 目前，投掷石块是针对在西岸被捕的巴勒斯坦儿童最常见的指控之一。
There are Palestinians throwing stones just about every day, not only at protests and not only at soldiers.
巴勒斯坦人几乎每天都会向抗议者和士兵投掷石块。
A few weeks ago, a Palestinian was convicted of throwing stones that killed an Israeli father and his baby when they were driving in the West Bank.
几周前，一名巴勒斯坦人因向以色列父亲和婴儿在约旦河西岸开车时投掷石块而被定罪。
A stone hit the father in the head, and he lost control of the car.
一块石头击中了父亲的头部，他失去了对汽车的控制。
The army takes stone throwing seriously, whether the stones are being thrown at armored jeeps or unarmed civilians.
军队严肃对待投掷石块的行为，无论是向装甲吉普车还是手无寸铁的平民投掷石块。
Soldiers videotape the weekly protests.
士兵们对每周的抗议活动进行录像。
And in Nabi Saleh, the villagers told me the army does that so that it can take those images and compare them to the nighttime photos.
在纳比萨利赫，村民告诉我，军队这样做是为了拍摄这些图像并将其与夜间照片进行比较。
That way, the army can arrest people who throw stones and go to demonstrations.
这样，军队就可以逮捕那些投掷石块和参加示威的人。
It's safer and easier for the army to arrest people at night rather than at the demonstration itself, though arrests actually might not be the point of the nighttime photos.
对于军队来说，在夜间逮捕人比在示威现场更安全、更容易，尽管逮捕实际上可能不是夜间照片的重点。
My officer tells me-- he told me before we left, bring your camera.
我的军官告诉我——他在我们离开之前告诉我，带上你的相机。
This is Nadav Bigelman.
这是纳达夫·比格曼。
He was an Israeli soldier who took photos in mapping operations similar to ones in Nabi Saleh, He's 24 years old, and his army service ended in 2010.
他是一名以色列士兵，在与纳比萨利赫类似的测绘作业中拍摄了照片，他今年 24 岁，于 2010 年结束兵役。
But his unit operated in villages that were also holding protests.
但他的部队在同样举行抗议活动的村庄开展活动。
Nadav said he'd just started his army service, and his commander told him to bring along his little Fujifilm camera one night to do some mapping.
纳达夫说，他刚刚开始服兵役，他的指挥官告诉他有一天晚上带上他的小型富士相机来绘制地图。
You know, it was like my first few duty line after basic training and all that.
你知道，这就像我在基础训练之后的第一个任务。
I thought I'd have, like, the most important intelligence material.
我以为我会拥有最重要的情报材料。
Yes, I thought someone would come and ask for these pictures.
是的，我以为有人会来索要这些照片。
I think, in my mind, this is the most logical thing to do, that someone, I don't know, intelligence, will ask for these pictures.
我认为，在我看来，这是最合乎逻辑的事情，有人，我不知道，情报，会要求这些照片。
But no one ever did ask for the pictures.
但从来没有人索要过这些照片。
Not only that, but Nadav says he later learned that all of the information they'd gathered, the ID numbers, the drawings of the layouts of the houses.
不仅如此，纳达夫说他后来了解到他们收集的所有信息，身份证号码，房屋布局图。
all of it had gone in the trash.
所有的东西都被扔进了垃圾桶。
Nadav was a young soldier-- 19 years old.
纳达夫是一名年轻的士兵——19 岁。
He didn't question why.
他没有问为什么。
He just deleted the photos.
他刚刚删除了照片。
Another soldier in Nadav's unit, Sagi Tal, confirmed that this happened.
纳达夫部队的另一名士兵萨吉·塔尔证实了此事的发生。
And Sagi said that over the course of his three-year army service, he saw the same thing happen again and again with mapping operations.
萨吉说，在他三年的兵役生涯中，他在测绘作业中一次又一次地看到同样的事情发生。
[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Translator One of the ways that I came to understand that this was just an exercise in futility was that every time a new battalion would come in and be in charge of a certain area, they would order this mapping procedure all over again.
[说外语]翻译 我逐渐明白这只是徒劳的做法的一个原因是，每次有新的营进来并负责某个地区时，他们都会重新执行此测绘程序。
And so it became clear to me that these photos weren't being used and didn't go into some kind of database the way we were lead to understand they would be.
因此我很清楚，这些照片没有被使用，也没有按照我们理解的方式进入某种数据库。
In my unit, we called that kind of operations "Condoleezza Rice operations."
在我的单位，我们将这种行动称为“康多莉扎·赖斯行动”。
This is another soldier also named Nadav, Nadav Weiman.
这是另一位士兵，也叫纳达夫，纳达夫·韦曼。
He was serving in 2008 when Condoleezza Rice was Secretary of State.
2008 年，康多莉扎·赖斯 (Condoleezza Rice) 担任国务卿时，他就在任职。
Because every time Condoleezza Rice came to Israel, we did that.
因为每次康多莉扎·赖斯来到以色列，我们都会这样做。
You did a mapping operation?
你做了映射操作吗？
Nadav Weiman Yeah.
纳达夫·韦曼 是的。
I thought Nadav Weiman might have had a different experience with mapping than other soldiers because he was in a special forces unit, and he was in charge of intelligence for his team, a sniper team.
我认为纳达夫·韦曼在测绘方面可能与其他士兵有不同的经验，因为他在特种部队中，负责他的团队（一支狙击小组）的情报工作。
And he did have a different experience.
而他也确实有不同的经历。
The army sent him to a photo course and gave him a camera, a Nikon D200 with seven lenses.
军队送他去参加摄影课程，并给了他一台相机，一台带有七个镜头的尼康 D200。
But when it came to mapping, it was the same with him as with other soldiers.
但说到测绘，他和其他士兵都是一样的。
He got back with all the photos and the information and the diagrams, went to his superior--
他带着所有照片、信息和图表回来，去找他的上级——
And I said, OK.
我说，好吧。
There's all the maps and the photos and everything.
这里有所有的地图、照片和一切。
And he said, Nadav, erase the photos and just throw the papers to the trash can.
他说，纳达夫，擦掉照片，然后把文件扔到垃圾桶里。
And don't ever come to me again with all the papers, because you don't need to do that.
永远不要再带着所有文件来找我，因为你不需要这样做。
Were you surprised?
你感到惊讶吗？
Nadav Weiman Yeah, I was very surprised, because the first time we did that, we did it really seriously.
Nadav Weiman 是的，我非常惊讶，因为我们第一次这样做时，我们做得非常认真。
You know, we asked, and we drew really accurate and everything.
你知道，我们问过，我们画得非常准确，一切都画得很好。
And then we understood that it doesn't really matter.
然后我们明白这并不重要。
He says after the first time he did mapping, he just threw everything away automatically.
他说，第一次绘制地图后，他就自动扔掉了所有东西。
I heard this, and I didn't understand.
我听到了这句话，我不明白。
Why get all that information and photos and then throw it away?
为什么要获取所有这些信息和照片然后扔掉呢？
And why keep doing that over and over?
为什么还要一遍又一遍地这样做？
I went back to Yehuda Shaul, the guy who first explained mapping to me and showed me the photo of the man in his pajamas.
我回到耶胡达·沙乌尔（Yehuda Shaul）那里，他首先向我解释了地图绘制，并向我展示了那个穿着睡衣的男人的照片。
Again, Yehuda did his army service years ago during the Second Intifada.
耶胡达多年前在第二次起义期间再次服兵役。
But he's been in touch with hundreds of soldiers since then, because after he finished his required army service, he and some others started an organization called Breaking The Silence that interviews Israeli soldiers about their experiences.
但从那时起，他一直与数百名士兵保持联系，因为在他完成所需的兵役后，他和其他一些人成立了一个名为“打破沉默”的组织，采访以色列士兵有关他们的经历。
Besides doing mapping himself, Yehuda's heard mapping stories from dozens of IDF soldiers-- Israel Defense Forces soldiers-- including ones who are serving now.
除了自己绘制地图之外，耶胡达还从数十名以色列国防军士兵（以色列国防军士兵）那里听到了绘制地图的故事，其中包括现在服役的士兵。
And he wasn't surprised by what Sagi and Nadav and the other Nadav told me.
他对萨吉、纳达夫和另一个纳达夫告诉我的事情并不感到惊讶。
He said it was the same for his unit in Hebron.
他说他在希伯伦的部队也是如此。
They mapped the old city of Hebron twice, then destroyed all the data on the orders of their commander without ever passing it on or doing anything with it.
他们两次绘制了希伯伦旧城的地图，然后按照指挥官的命令销毁了所有数据，但从未将其传递或对其进行任何处理。
Look, very quick you understand that mapping is just another form of making your presence felt, right?
看，很快您就会明白映射只是让您感受到存在感的另一种形式，对吧？
Making your presence felt.
让人们感受到您的存在。
That's a phrase.
这是一个短语。
It's a--
这是一个——
Yeah.
是的。
[FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
[外语]。
Demonstrating your presence.
展示你的存在。
The idea is very simple.
这个想法很简单。
Every Palestinian feels that the IDF is always right here, you know?
每个巴勒斯坦人都觉得以色列国防军永远就在这里，你知道吗？
You're pointing right to the back of your head behind your left ear.
您正指向左耳后面的后脑勺。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
We're breathing behind you.
我们在你身后呼吸。
We're always there.
我们一直都在那里。
We're always watching.
我们一直在关注。
You never know where we're going to be, when we're going to show up, how it's going to look like, what we're going to do, when it's going to start, when it's going to end, right?
你永远不知道我们会在哪里，我们什么时候出现，会是什么样子，我们要做什么，什么时候开始，什么时候结束，对吧？
So what do you do to make them feel this way?
那么你要做什么才能让他们有这种感觉呢？
You make your presence felt.
你让人感觉到你的存在。
But this is not a tactic.
但这不是一种策略。
This is not a strategy that distinguishes between good guys and bad guys, right?
这不是区分好人和坏人的策略吧？
[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
[说外语]。
Nancy Updike I spent an afternoon talking to seven boys who were photographed in Nabi Saleh, the village where I saw the weekly protest.
南希·厄普代克 (Nancy Updike) 我花了一个下午的时间与在纳比萨利赫 (Nabi Saleh) 拍摄照片的七个男孩交谈，我就是在那里看到每周一次的抗议活动的。
Most had been photographed more than once.
大多数人都被拍过不止一次。
Some had later been arrested.
有些人后来被捕。
Some hadn't.
有些没有。
One of the kids I talked to was the younger boy from Bilal Tamimi's video, his son, Muhammad.
我交谈过的孩子之一是比拉尔·塔米米视频中的小男孩，他的儿子穆罕默德。
Muhammad was almost 12 when the soldiers took his picture.
士兵们给穆罕默德拍照时，他已经快 12 岁了。
He's just turned 14.
他刚刚满14岁。
But he seems young for his age.
但就他的年龄而言，他看起来很年轻。
He didn't act tough or indifferent when I asked him about soldiers taking his picture.
当我问起士兵给他拍照的事时，他并没有表现得强硬或冷漠。
[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
[说外语]。
Translator I was surprised that they were there.
翻译 我很惊讶他们在那里。
This is the first time that they entered our house.
这是他们第一次进我们家。
I had thought about it a lot before but never expected it to happen.
我之前想过很多次，但没想到会发生这样的事。
Muhammad's mother told me that he and his older brother worried in the weeks afterward that soldiers would come back.
穆罕默德的母亲告诉我，他和他的哥哥在几周后担心士兵会回来。
His older brother started sleeping in jeans and keeping his shoes next to the bed in case he was arrested in the middle of the night.
他的哥哥开始穿着牛仔裤睡觉，并将鞋子放在床边，以防半夜被捕。
Muhammad didn't like to sleep at all.
穆罕默德根本不喜欢睡觉。
[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
[说外语]。
Translator I started staying up late, watching for the coming of the soldiers.
我开始熬夜，等待士兵的到来。
His mother told me that for months she would wake up at 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning to the sound of the TV.
他的母亲告诉我，连续几个月她都会在凌晨 4:00 或 5:00 被电视的声音吵醒。
And she would find Muhammad awake, half watching TV and half watching out the window to see if anyone was coming.
她会发现穆罕默德醒着，一半看电视，一半看着窗外是否有人过来。
Muhammad never was arrested, and neither was his older brother.
穆罕默德从未被捕，他的哥哥也没有被捕。
But soldiers did come again to the house.
但士兵们确实再次来到了这所房子。
Like before, it was around 1:30 in the morning.
和之前一样，时间是凌晨1点30分左右。
And just like before, his father, Bilal, videotaped it.
就像以前一样，他的父亲比拉尔将这一切录了下来。
Bilal's had video cameras since he was a teenager.
比拉尔从十几岁起就拥有摄像机。
But a few years ago, he got a better one from an Israeli human rights organization called B'Tselem.
但几年前，他从以色列人权组织 B'Tselem 那里得到了更好的建议。
Now he's got a video archive organized by date of the times the Israeli military has come into the village over the last couple of years.
现在，他有了一个视频档案，按过去几年以色列军队进入该村庄的时间排列。
Sit please.
请坐。
Bilal Tamimi [SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE].
Bilal Tamimi [说外语]。
In this video, everyone has been woken up and is sitting in the kitchen.
在这段视频中，每个人都已经被吵醒，坐在厨房里。
And one soldier is walking around with Bilal doing a search, asking him, in English this time, whether he has anything illegal or forbidden in the house.
一名士兵带着比拉尔四处走动，进行搜查，这次用英语询问他家里是否有任何非法或禁止的物品。
Do you have something who is unforbidden?
你有什么不被禁止的事吗？
Unforbidden?
不受禁止？
Like what?
比如什么？
Soldier 2 Yes.
士兵2 是的。
Like knives.
就像刀子一样。
Like weapons.
就像武器一样。
I have a lot of knives and the spoons in the kitchen.
我厨房里有很多刀和勺子。
The kitchen is OK-- Nancy Updike In case you didn't hear it, Bilal is saying, I have a lot of knives and spoons in the kitchen.
厨房还好——南希·厄普代克（Nancy Updike） 如果你没有听到，比拉尔在说，我厨房里有很多刀和勺子。
The soldier says, the kitchen is OK.
士兵说，厨房还可以。
I've got knives in my kitchen, too.
我的厨房里也有刀。
The soldier keeps walking around with Bilal, questioning him.
这名士兵一直带着比拉尔走来走去，询问他。
Do you carry a weapon?
你携带武器吗？
Bilal Tamimi Weapon?
比拉尔·塔米米 武器？
This is my weapon.
这是我的武器。
Bilal points to his camera as he says this.
比拉尔一边说着，一边指着他的相机。
OK.
好的。
It's a good weapon.
这是一把好武器。
Bilal Tamimi Yes.
比拉尔·塔米米 是的。
Again, no one in the house is under arrest.
同样，房子里没有人被捕。
The soldiers are just looking around, asking to see the older son's backpack, looking in cabinets and on shelves, asking more questions, and finally leaving.
士兵们只是四处张望，要求看看大儿子的背包，在柜子和架子上寻找，问更多问题，最后离开。
For sure, there are people in the West Bank who want to kill Israelis.
当然，约旦河西岸有人想要杀害以色列人。
Nadav Weiman, the special forces guy, showed me a photo he took after his team raided the house of a Palestinian man who had a workshop inside to build bombs.
特种部队成员纳达夫·韦曼（Nadav Weiman）向我展示了一张他的团队突袭一名巴勒斯坦男子的房屋后拍摄的照片，该男子的房屋内有一个制造炸弹的作坊。
And we found a lot of ammunition and things inside his house and bombs and everything.
我们在他的房子里发现了很多弹药和东西，还有炸弹和所有东西。
Nadav says the raid on that house was based on intelligence.
纳达夫说，对那所房子的突袭是基于情报。
And Israel has an incredible amount of information about who and what are in the West Bank.
以色列拥有大量关于西岸的人物和事物的信息。
They've got cameras, informants, listening devices, drones, undercover units.
他们有摄像机、线人、监听设备、无人机、卧底单位。
And Nadav says that over the course of his three-year army service, the conclusion he came to, based on his own experiences and conversations with other soldiers, including his two older brothers who are also special forces, was that some operations really were about gathering and using intel.
纳达夫说，在他三年的兵役过程中，根据自己的经验以及与其他士兵（包括他的两个也是特种部队的哥哥）的交谈，他得出的结论是，有些行动实际上是为了收集和使用情报。
He would go out and take reconnaissance photos, and they would be used.
他会出去拍摄侦察照片，然后使用它们。
But he says those operations, even for his elite team, were the exception.
但他表示，即使对于他的精英团队来说，这些行动也是例外。
He believes that a lot of what they did, including most mapping operations, fell into a different category, the "demonstrating our presence" category.
他认为，他们所做的很多事情，包括大多数测绘操作，都属于不同的类别，即“展示我们的存在”类别。
And in that category was a whole range of things from mapping to something else he says his team did called mock arrests.
在这个类别中，有各种各样的事情，从绘制地图到他说他的团队确实称之为模拟逮捕的其他事情。
Other soldiers also talked about this.
其他士兵也议论着此事。
And a mock arrest is exactly what it sounds like, arresting someone who's not really under arrest.
模拟逮捕顾名思义，逮捕一个没有真正被捕的人。
Even more than that, Nadav said before his team went out to do a mock arrest, they would call the Shabak, Israel's internal intelligence agency.
更重要的是，纳达夫表示，在他的团队出去进行模拟逮捕之前，他们会致电以色列内部情报机构沙巴克。
And we'd say to them, we want to go to do mock arrest in that house.
我们会对他们说，我们想去那所房子里进行模拟逮捕。
And we give the number of the house, because there's maps and all the houses are numbered.
我们给出了房子的号码，因为有地图，所有的房子都有编号。
And they check.
他们会检查。
And they have information about all of the Palestinians in West Bank.
他们掌握了西岸所有巴勒斯坦人的信息。
And they give us the OK, because if everybody in the house is innocent and not connected to terror, they say, OK, you can go.
他们同意我们，因为如果房子里的每个人都是无辜的并且与恐怖分子无关，他们就会说，好吧，你可以走了。
Let me underscore what he's saying here.
让我强调他在这里所说的话。
He said his team could only do a mock arrest after Israel's intelligence service told them that no one in the house is suspected of wrongdoing.
他说，在以色列情报部门告诉他们房子里没有人涉嫌有不当行为后，他的团队只能进行模拟逮捕。
And we'd go in the middle of the night, and we surround the house.
我们会在半夜去，把房子围起来。
And we shout, come out with your hands in the air.
我们喊道，出来，双手举在空中。
And we throw stun grenades, or we fire bullets at the walls of the house.
我们投掷眩晕手榴弹，或者向房子的墙壁发射子弹。
Or we throw smoke grenades.
或者我们投掷烟雾弹。
And then somebody comes out and is afraid, and he doesn't know what is happening.
然后有人出来感到害怕，他不知道发生了什么。
And we arrest him.
我们逮捕了他。
And we shout a lot in Hebrew and Arabic.
我们经常用希伯来语和阿拉伯语喊叫。
We arrest him.
我们逮捕他。
We put him inside a Jeep.
我们把他放进一辆吉普车里。
And then we do like two or three rounds--
然后我们确实喜欢两到三轮——
Driving around the village.
开车绕村子转了一圈。
Nadav Weiman Driving around the village.
纳达夫·韦曼 (Nadav Weiman) 在村庄里开车。
And then after, like, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, maybe the whole night, we put him back inside his house and drove away from there.
然后，大约 20 分钟、30 分钟，也许整个晚上，我们把他放回自己的房子里，然后开车离开那里。
And the goal in that operation, the goal is creating the feeling of being chased in the Palestinian population.
该行动的目标是在巴勒斯坦人民中制造一种被追赶的感觉。
To create the feeling of being chased in the Palestinian population was an explicit goal that Nadav says he saw many times typed out in the PowerPoint presentation his team would be shown before a mission, right there along with all the other official information.
纳达夫说，他多次在 PowerPoint 演示文稿中看到他在执行任务前向他的团队展示的 PowerPoint 演示文稿中，以及所有其他官方信息，让巴勒斯坦人产生一种被追赶的感觉。
Our team, our names, who is the officer, and what is the goal of the operation, and how we're going to do it, it's all written.
我们的团队，我们的名字，谁是官员，行动的目标是什么，以及我们将如何去做，都写在上面了。
And it's written to create the feeling of being chased in the Palestinian population just like that.
它的写作目的就是为了让巴勒斯坦人产生一种被追赶的感觉。
That's the mission that I was sent.
这就是我被派去的使命。
And you see that a lot of things I do in the West Bank as a soldier, I'm not here to protect Israel.
你看，我作为一名士兵在约旦河西岸做了很多事情，我来这里并不是为了保护以色列。
I'm here to control Palestinians.
我来这里是为了控制巴勒斯坦人。
I ran all this by Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner, spokesman for the Israeli military, the Israel Defense Forces.
这一切都是由以色列军方、以色列国防军发言人彼得·勒纳中校负责的。
I quoted to him the objective Nadav Weiman said he saw typed out before some missions.
我向他引用了纳达夫·韦曼所说的他在执行某些任务之前看到的目标。
"To create the feeling of being chased in the Palestinian population."
“为了让巴勒斯坦人产生被追赶的感觉。”
I would not consider that a military objective at all.
我根本不认为这是一个军事目标。
And when we do carry out military operations, a specific target would be to arrest an individual to gather intelligence for a specific mission.
当我们执行军事行动时，具体目标是逮捕某人，为特定任务收集情报。
It would not be just to intimidate anybody.
这不仅仅是为了恐吓任何人。
I would rule that out to begin with.
我一开始就排除了这一点。
Again, if there was a low-level commander making such a statement or event putting it in writing, it could be a mistake.
同样，如果有一个低级别指挥官发表这样的声明或事件并将其书面化，那可能是一个错误。
I told Colonel Lerner about the mock arrests Nadav Weiman and other soldiers said they'd done.
我向勒纳上校讲述了纳达夫·韦曼和其他士兵所说的模拟逮捕事件。
I asked him what's the purpose of a mock arrest.
我问他模拟逮捕的目的是什么。
I can't even comprehend that type of term.
我什至无法理解这种术语。
When we carry out an arrest, we carry it out.
当我们执行逮捕时，我们就执行。
We take the person.
我们带走这个人。
We take them for questioning.
我们带他们去询问。
It could be a short questioning.
这可能是一个简短的提问。
You ask them a few questions.
你问他们几个问题。
You see if there's any basis for further investigation.
你看看有没有进一步调查的依据。
And he could be released.
他可以被释放。
It wouldn't be a mock.
这不会是一个嘲笑。
I would say that that definitely not be how we operate.
我想说这绝对不是我们的运作方式。
You've never heard that term?
你从来没有听说过这个词吗？
Peter Lerner No.
彼得·勒纳 没有。
About mapping, he said-- Peter Lerner In the past, we did military operations to map out populated areas to find out who's living where and who's doing what.
关于测绘，他说——彼得·勒纳（Peter Lerner）过去，我们进行军事行动来绘制人口稠密地区的地图，以查明谁住在哪里以及谁在做什么。
I'm not aware of throwing data out or throwing intelligence out.
我不知道丢弃数据或丢弃情报。
No. I doubt that would be the situation.
不，我怀疑情况会是这样。
It would defeat the object.
它会打败这个物体。
We don't just send troops out just to go out.
我们派兵不只是为了出去。
We safeguard our own safety.
我们维护自己的安全。
We don't send people and put them at risk.
我们不会派遣人员并将他们置于危险之中。
And we would look at every mission in a professional manner.
我们将以专业的方式看待每一项任务。
The years since the Second Intifada ended, around 2006, have been the quietest in a long time for Israelis, with some brutal exceptions.
自 2006 年左右第二次起义结束以来，对于以色列人来说，这是很长一段时间以来最平静的几年，除了一些残酷的例外。
People don't worry about getting on buses the way they used to or try to find tables in cafes far away from the door in case a suicide bomber gets in.
人们不再像以前那样担心上公交车，也不再试图在离门口很远的咖啡馆里找到桌子，以防自杀式炸弹袭击者进来。
So you could argue that creating the feeling of being chased in the Palestinian population has worked, that mapping is important to Israel's security.
因此，你可能会说，在巴勒斯坦人民中营造一种被追赶的感觉是有效的，绘制地图对以色列的安全很重要。
And it doesn't matter whether data is kept or not.
数据是否保留并不重要。
But mapping and mock arrests are just a small part of things in the West Bank.
但测绘和模拟逮捕只是西岸事情的一小部分。
For the last few years, there's been this intense cooperation between Palestinian Authority security forces and Israeli security forces.
过去几年，巴勒斯坦权力机构安全部队和以色列安全部队之间一直密切合作。
And Israel's built a barrier, a series of fences and walls, in much of the West Bank.
以色列在西岸大部分地区建造了一道屏障，一系列栅栏和围墙。
Those things probably have a lot more impact on Israeli security than sporadic mapping operations.
这些事情对以色列安全的影响可能比零星的测绘行动大得多。
But then what's hard to calculate is the downside of mapping or mock arrests.
但难以计算的是绘制地图或模拟逮捕的负面影响。
What does it do when anyone, innocent or guilty, can be woken up by soldiers in the middle of the night along with their kids?
当任何人，无论是无辜的还是有罪的，在半夜被士兵和他们的孩子吵醒时，会发生什么？
The soldiers who came to Bilal Tamimi's house and photographed his kids were notably polite.
来到比拉尔·塔米米家并给他的孩子们拍照的士兵们非常有礼貌。
It's part of what makes the video compelling, the disconnect between how they're speaking and what they're doing.
这是视频引人入胜的部分原因，他们说话的方式和所做的事情之间存在脱节。
All of the soldiers I spoke with talked about feeling aversion of that disconnect.
我采访过的所有士兵都表示对这种脱节感到厌恶。
And these are all people who entered the army wanting to protect their country.
这些人都是为了保卫自己的国家而参军的。
They joined combat units and did tough service.
他们加入了战斗部队并从事艰苦的服务。
Nadav Weiman, the special forces soldier, wanted to be on the front lines.
特种部队士兵纳达夫·韦曼 (Nadav Weiman) 想去前线。
He went into Lebanon.
他去了黎巴嫩。
He was two days away from his reserve duty when we talked.
当我们谈话时，他距离预备役服役还有两天。
And yet, he and the others I talked to feel that a lot of what they've done in the army is deliberate intimidation of civilians.
然而，他和我交谈过的其他人都认为，他们在军队中所做的很多事情都是故意恐吓平民。
They don't believe it made Israel safer in the long run.
他们认为从长远来看这不会让以色列变得更安全。
And, yeah, these are a select group.
是的，这些都是经过挑选的群体。
A lot of people, inside the army and out, don't see it this way.
军队内外的很多人并不这么看。
Nadav Bigelman, the guy who had mapping photos on his camera, told me about one night when his unit was given glow sticks, like kids buy at concerts, before they went out on their patrol.
纳达夫·毕格曼（Nadav Bigelman）是一个用相机拍摄地图照片的人，他告诉我，有一天晚上，他的部队在出去巡逻之前得到了荧光棒，就像孩子们在音乐会上购买的那样。
And their commander said to throw them into people's houses.
他们的指挥官说把他们扔进人们的房子里。
Just toss them through open windows or balconies.
只需将它们扔进打开的窗户或阳台即可。
And you can say, OK, it's not violent.
你可以说，好吧，这不是暴力。
It didn't harm anyone.
它没有伤害任何人。
But the idea is, again-- of course, just random houses, of course.
但这个想法还是——当然，只是随机的房子。
The idea, again, is not the glow sticks but what the glow sticks make people think.
再说一次，这个想法不是荧光棒，而是荧光棒让人们思考的东西。
I mean, just imagine, people wake up the next morning, prepare for school, to work, university, and they see a glow stick in the middle of their living room.
我的意思是，想象一下，人们第二天早上醒来，准备上学、工作、上大学，他们会看到客厅中央有一根荧光棒。
And they understand the army was here.
他们知道军队在这里。
That's how 46 years go by, sometimes with a heavy hand, sometimes with a light touch.
46年就这样过去了，有时手重，有时手轻。
Nancy Updike is one of the producers of our program.
南希·厄普代克是我们节目的制作人之一。
[MUSIC - "I TURN MY CAMERA ON" BY SPOON]
[音乐 - 用勺子“我打开相机”]
Coming up, a kid's drawing in ballpoint pen on printer paper.
接下来，一个孩子用圆珠笔在打印纸上画画。
What could that possibly be worth?
那可能值多少钱？
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.
一分钟后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme and bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，我们的节目每周都会选择一个主题，并为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's program we're calling "Picture Show," about pictures and how the story that we tell ourselves about a picture totally determines what we see when we look at it.
今天的节目我们称之为“图片秀”，讲述图片以及我们告诉自己的关于图片的故事如何完全决定我们在观看它时看到的内容。
We've arrived at Act Two of our program.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two, A Picture is Worth $1,000.
第二幕，一幅画值 1,000 美元。
Let's head now into the world of buying and selling pictures, where every picture has a price, the price is very, very high.
现在让我们进入买卖图片的世界，每张图片都有一个价格，价格非常非常高。
This is the fine art world with collectors and galleries and, of course, artists.
这是一个拥有收藏家和画廊，当然还有艺术家的美术世界。
Scott Pinkmountain has this story about whether it is possible to get away from all that once you are deep inside it.
斯科特·平克山（Scott Pinkmountain）有一个故事，讲述的是一旦你深入其中，是否有可能摆脱这一切。
Schandra Singh is a painter, a good one.
钱德拉·辛格是一位画家，而且是一位优秀的画家。
Straight out of an MFA program, she landed a gallery in New York.
刚从艺术硕士课程毕业后，她就在纽约找到了一家画廊。
I was, like, minus $200 in my bank account.
我的银行账户里好像减去了 200 美元。
And I was driving to the city with some works on paper, because my dealer's like, well, maybe-- because I make really big paintings.
我带着一些纸上作品开车去城里，因为我的经销商喜欢，嗯，也许——因为我画了非常大的画作。
And he was like, maybe if you have something small, we can sell it, you know?
他说，也许如果你有一些小东西，我们可以卖掉它，你知道吗？
So I'm driving there and I get a phone call from him, from my dealer.
当我开车去那里时，我接到了他、我的经销商打来的电话。
And he goes, Schandra.
他走了，珊德拉。
And I said, yes?
我说，是吗？
And he goes, Saatchi just bought the "Lazy River" painting.
他说，萨奇刚刚买了《漂流河》这幅画。
And I just, like, dropped the phone and screamed.
我只是，就像，放下电话并尖叫起来。
Saatchi would be Charles Saatchi, co founder of the international advertising firm Saatchi & Saatchi and owner of the Saatchi Gallery in London.
萨奇就是查尔斯·萨奇 (Charles Saatchi)，他是国际广告公司萨奇与萨奇 (Saatchi & Saatchi) 的联合创始人，也是伦敦萨奇画廊 (Saatchi Gallery) 的所有者。
He's ranked among the wealthiest people in the UK and probably the most closely watched contemporary art collector on the planet.
他是英国最富有的人之一，也可能是地球上最受关注的当代艺术收藏家。
He ended up buying three more from the show.
他最终从展会上又买了三个。
Oh, and then when he buys it, what he does is that he automatically puts you on his website.
哦，然后当他购买时，他所做的就是自动将你放在他的网站上。
Which is a big deal in itself, because the Saatchi gallery website is hugely popular among collectors.
这本身就是一件大事，因为萨奇画廊网站在收藏家中非常受欢迎。
And then, I don't know, all these collectors come.
然后，我不知道，所有这些收藏家都来了。
And then I was offered a show right away with a really good gallery in Switzerland.
然后我马上就收到了在瑞士一家非常好的画廊举办的展览。
My gallery in New York, again, automatically wanted to book my next show.
我在纽约的画廊再次自动想要预订我的下一场展览。
Saatchi said he wanted to see everything that came out of my studio.
萨奇说他想看看我工作室里的所有作品。
Oh, my god.
我的天啊。
Soon, all the other paintings in her New York gallery shows sold out.
很快，她在纽约画廊展出的所有其他画作都售空了。
Then collectors bought every single piece in her studio, completely cleaned her out.
然后收藏家买下了她工作室里的每一件作品，彻底清理了她。
This pace continued for five years.
这样的步伐持续了五年。
This is a whole side of the art world that most of us only have a vague awareness of, where collectors buy and sell art like it's wheat futures or pork bellies.
这是艺术世界的一个整体，我们大多数人对此只有模糊的认识，收藏家在这里买卖艺术品，就像买卖小麦期货或五花肉一样。
And Schandra's work was part of that.
尚德拉的工作就是其中的一部分。
Schandra's gallery sold a couple paintings to this one guy who turned around and immediately tried to resell them for a big profit.
尚德拉的画廊向这个人卖了几幅画，后者转身立即试图转售它们以获取高额利润。
It felt weird.
感觉很奇怪。
And that's a lot of people do, particularly with Saatchi.
很多人都这么做，尤其是萨奇。
Like, they buy what he buys.
就像，他们买他买的东西。
They don't even hang it in their apartment homes.
他们甚至不把它挂在自己的公寓里。
They put it in a warehouse.
他们把它放在仓库里。
And they watch the value go up or down.
他们观察价值的上涨或下跌。
It's like stocks, you know?
这就像股票，你知道吗？
And then if it goes up, they hold onto it or they flip it.
然后，如果它上涨，他们会抓住它或翻转它。
You know, it's amazing to get all this success.
你知道，取得如此成功真是令人惊奇。
But, like, painters really paint because there's sort of like this beautiful magic moment in it, you know?
但是，就像画家真正绘画一样，因为其中有一种美丽的神奇时刻，你知道吗？
And after you're constantly making stuff all the time, and people are buying stuff, and then they're flipping paintings and it's all about money, it's like you just crave for that little magic moment again.
当你一直在不断地制作东西，人们在买东西，然后他们翻转画作并且一切都与金钱有关之后，就好像你再次渴望那个神奇的时刻。
It becomes corrupted if you let it.
如果你放任它，它就会被损坏。
So it was in the midst of all this when something happened to Schandra.
就在这一切发生的时候，珊德拉发生了一些事情。
As she tells it, she was laying in bed struggling to get up and go to the studio to work on this big solo show.
正如她所说，她躺在床上，挣扎着起床去工作室参加这场大型个展。
I look on my cell phone, and there's this email from this father in England.
我打开手机，收到了这位英国父亲发来的电子邮件。
And he says that he's a really big fan of my work, and he has a 13-year-old autistic son who really loves my work, too.
他说他非常喜欢我的作品，而且他有一个 13 岁患有自闭症的儿子，他也非常喜欢我的作品。
He's really moved by my work and that his son is an artist.
他真的被我的作品所感动，而且他的儿子是一位艺术家。
And he's making work all the time, and that he's currently doing a series called "Fire From the Eyes." And that he wanted to know if he could buy Anthony, his son, one of my drawings or something for him because it would just make Anthony so happy.
他一直在创作，目前正在制作一个名为“Fire From the Eyes”的系列。他想知道他是否可以给安东尼、他的儿子、我的一幅画或其他东西买，因为这会让安东尼非常高兴。
And then he said, you can reach us at our email.
然后他说，你可以通过我们的电子邮件联系我们。
And then he gave me his address.
然后他给了我他的地址。
And then he wrote, you know, best wishes, Benjamin and Anthony.
然后他写了，你知道，祝愿本杰明和安东尼。
And when I got that, I was like, whoa, wow.
当我得到这个的时候，我就想，哇，哇。
There's this autistic boy in England who's moved by my work and really loves my work to the point that his father had to email me and tell me.
英国有一个患有自闭症的男孩，他被我的工作所感动，并且非常热爱我的工作，以至于他的父亲不得不给我发电子邮件告诉我。
And I just-- I don't know.
我只是——我不知道。
It just, like, lifted me up.
它只是让我振作起来。
And so I just thought it was amazing.
所以我觉得这太棒了。
And I told the story to a lot of people.
我把这个故事告诉了很多人。
And I ended up writing back to him.
我最终给他回了信。
And I just said, look, I'm honored that his son loves my work so much.
我只是说，看，我很荣幸他的儿子如此热爱我的工作。
And thank you so much for the email and that I'd love to see Anthony's "Fire From the Eyes" series.
非常感谢您发来电子邮件，我很想看安东尼的“眼睛之火”系列。
And the next day, I get an email back from him saying, Anthony would love to send you some of his "Fire From the Eyes" series.
第二天，我收到他回复的一封电子邮件，内容是安东尼很乐意向您发送一些他的“Fire From the Eyes”系列作品。
And I'm thinking about this whole thing.
我正在思考整件事。
And I'm telling people this story about there's this autistic boy who's going to be sending me his drawings.
我正在告诉人们这个故事，有一个自闭症男孩将把他的画寄给我。
And so I was like, why don't I just do a trade with him?
所以我想，为什么我不和他做一笔交易呢？
It's just a sweet thing to do.
这真是一件甜蜜的事情。
If he's going to be sending me his art, I'll just send him something of mine.
如果他要把他的艺术作品寄给我，我就寄给他一些我的作品。
So then he writes back, Anthony's so excited about the trade.
然后他回信说，安东尼对这笔交易非常兴奋。
He's like, he can't wait.
他就像，他等不及了。
And he's like, we sent your package.
他说，我们已经寄出了你的包裹。
So there's a lot of communication it sounds like.
所以听起来有很多沟通。
Yeah, there was a lot of communication.
是的，有很多沟通。
And intimate communication, you know?
还有亲密的沟通，你知道吗？
He'd write things like, Anthony says hi.
他会写这样的话，安东尼打招呼。
Anthony draws all the time.
安东尼一直在画画。
And so then this package arrives of these drawings.
然后这些图纸的包裹就到了。
And they had written me a letter with it, from Anthony and Benjamin.
他们给我写了一封由安东尼和本杰明写的信。
And the drawings, I take the drawings out, and they're just, like, totally insane looking.
还有那些图画，我把图画拿出来，它们看上去简直太疯狂了。
They're just like, whoa.
他们就像，哇。
I mean, they're sort of stick figurey.
我的意思是，他们有点像简笔画。
But they're this man with his face with his mouth open.
但他们就是这个张着脸、张着嘴的男人。
And then he's got all these googly things coming out of his eyes.
然后他的眼睛里就流出了所有这些粘糊糊的东西。
And then there's random words written everywhere.
然后到处都是随意写的字。
And I was, like, transfixed.
我简直惊呆了。
All the pictures were nearly identical, drawn in ballpoint pen on pieces of plain white paper.
所有的图片几乎都是一样的，都是用圆珠笔画在白纸上的。
Schandra wrote Benjamin.
尚德拉写了本雅明。
And I said, wow.
我说，哇。
These are so amazing.
这些太神奇了。
Thank you so much.
太感谢了。
I love his drawings.
我喜欢他的画。
A few days later, she received a second package of drawings.
几天后，她收到了第二包图纸。
And in that package were more letters and then a box of chocolates.
那个包裹里有更多的信件，还有一盒巧克力。
And I was like, whoa, a box of chocolates, you know?
我当时想，哇，一盒巧克力，你知道吗？
And so then, I guess my drawing arrived.
然后我想我的画就到了。
And he said, Anthony's so excited.
他说，安东尼太兴奋了。
The drawing just came.
图纸刚来。
He wants me to frame it for him.
他要我为他镶框。
Thank you so much, Schandra.
非常感谢你，珊德拉。
So glad to hear you got the box of chocolates.
很高兴听到你收到了一盒巧克力。
Did you eat the chocolate?
你吃巧克力了吗？
Schandra Singh I did.
珊德拉·辛格 我做到了。
I did.
我做到了。
It was good chocolate.
这是很好的巧克力。
Schandra's not a fool.
珊德拉不是傻子。
She said there was a second before she bit into the chocolate where she wondered if she should eat it.
她说，在咬巧克力之前有一秒钟，她想知道是否应该吃它。
Who were these people sending her chocolates and drawings?
这些给她送巧克力和图画的人是谁？
She'd had little nagging doubts all along.
她一直以来都有一些挥之不去的疑虑。
And as things progressed, she wondered more and more about certain elements of the story.
随着事情的进展，她对故事中的某些元素越来越想知道。
Like, how did Anthony find her work in the first place?
比如，安东尼最初是如何找到工作的？
Then Schandra was on the phone with a friend retelling the story in detail.
然后珊德拉和一位朋友通电话，详细地复述了这个故事。
Her friend was Nigerian, and he recognized Benjamin's last name as also being Nigerian.
她的朋友是尼日利亚人，他认出本杰明的姓氏也是尼日利亚人。
And he says to me, he's like, I don't want to make you feel bad or anything.
他对我说，他就像，我不想让你感觉不好或其他什么。
He's like, but, you know, I don't really trust Nigerians.
他就像，但是，你知道，我不太信任尼日利亚人。
And this is coming from a Nigerian, right?
这是尼日利亚人说的，对吧？
And I'm like, what do you mean?
我想，你是什么意思？
He's like, I don't know if I trust that this is real.
他说，我不知道我是否相信这是真的。
And I remember feeling a little hurt by him even though I felt like I had no reason to be hurt by him.
我记得被他伤害了一点，尽管我觉得我没有理由被他伤害。
But I was, in my brain, like, what?
但我的脑子里想，什么？
You don't think I'm moving this autistic boy?
你不认为我会感动这个自闭症男孩吗？
And so I started asking people, like, do you think that this is real?
所以我开始问人们，比如，你认为这是真的吗？
And everyone I talked to would say, who would ever pretend to have an autistic child and then send you these drawings and write you these intimate details?
和我交谈过的每个人都会说，谁会假装自己有一个自闭症孩子，然后给你发这些图画，给你写这些私密的细节？
Nobody thought it wasn't real.
没有人认为这不是真的。
Schandra poked around online.
珊德拉在网上闲逛。
She didn't really find anything.
她确实什么也没发现。
She never heard from Benjamin again, which felt a little strange, given how friendly and personal their emails had been.
她再也没有收到本杰明的消息，考虑到他们的电子邮件是多么友好和私密，这感觉有点奇怪。
But she just let it drop.
但她只是放弃了。
Two years passed.
两年过去了。
Then, just a few months ago, Schandra was at a party in New York with a bunch of friends from grad school.
然后，就在几个月前，珊德拉和一群研究生朋友一起参加了纽约的一个聚会。
And I was hanging out with a friend of mine whose work I really love and I think is a great guy or whatever.
我和我的一个朋友一起出去玩，我真的很喜欢他的工作，我认为他是一个很棒的人或其他什么。
And we're talking.
我们正在谈论。
And he turns to me.
他转向我。
And he says, oh, my god.
他说，哦，天啊。
I have to tell you.
我必须告诉你。
The most amazing thing just happened to me.
最奇妙的事情刚刚发生在我身上。
And he goes on to tell me the same exact story.
他继续告诉我同样的故事。
Everything's the same, the dad in England, the autistic son, the names, the address, the wording of the letter, "Anthony really loves your work."
一切都一样，英国的父亲，患有自闭症的儿子，名字，地址，信的措辞，“安东尼真的很喜欢你的工作。”
And my first reaction was, oh, well, I guess he's just a fan of both of our work, and wasn't sure if we were talking about the same person.
我的第一反应是，哦，好吧，我猜他只是我们两个作品的粉丝，不确定我们是否在谈论同一个人。
This is Schandra's friend, a painter named Baker Overstreet.
这是珊德拉的朋友，一位名叫贝克·奥弗斯特里特的画家。
He's had a similar career arc to Schandra, both of them showing internationally, both collected by Saatchi right out of grad school.
他和尚德拉有着相似的职业生涯，两人都在国际上崭露头角，都在研究生毕业后被萨奇收藏。
As I was describing it to her, I could tell she was eager to interject.
当我向她描述时，我可以看出她很想插嘴。
And he's like, no, no. This couldn't have happened to you.
他说，不，不。这不可能发生在你身上。
And I remember I looked at him, and I was like, did you get a box of chocolates?
我记得我看着他，我想，你有一盒巧克力吗？
And he just stared at me, like, with this funny face, right?
他只是用这张滑稽的表情盯着我看，对吧？
Baker pulled out his phone and showed Schandra pictures he'd taken of Anthony's drawings.
贝克拿出手机，向珊德拉展示了他为安东尼的画作拍摄的照片。
Schandra told Baker, those are the same drawings I got.
珊德拉告诉贝克，这些和我得到的图画是一样的。
They weren't photocopies or replicas, just very, very similar.
它们不是复印件或复制品，只是非常非常相似。
The moment that happened, it was like my confirmation.
这件事发生的那一刻，就像是我的确认。
You know, I'd been skeptical before.
你知道，我之前一直持怀疑态度。
But then I was like, this is a scam.
但后来我想，这是一个骗局。
Because of Schandra's reaction, Baker decided to hold off sending a drawing.
由于珊德拉的反应，贝克决定推迟发送图纸。
Schandra saw an obvious link.
珊德拉看到了明显的联系。
They'd both been collected by Charles Saatchi.
它们都被查尔斯·萨奇 (Charles Saatchi) 收藏。
Maybe Benjamin was just combing the Saatchi website looking for artists to write to.
也许本杰明只是在浏览萨奇网站寻找可以写信的艺术家。
It makes sense.
这是有道理的。
It would be an easy way to find artists whose work was potentially valuable.
这将是寻找具有潜在价值的艺术家的简单方法。
After I found out about this happening to someone else, I was like, this has to stop.
当我发现这种情况发生在其他人身上后，我想，这必须停止。
This is wrong.
这是错误的。
And what this man is potentially doing, if it is the Saatchi website that he's getting the artists from, is that if he writes to, say, 500 artists, and only 100 artists respond with a drawing-- that drawing I gave him is valued somewhere between $1,000 and $2,000.
如果他从 Saatchi 网站获取艺术家，那么这个人可能会做的事情是，如果他写信给 500 位艺术家，而只有 100 位艺术家回复画作，那么我给他的那幅画的价值在 1,000 到 2,000 美元之间。
The drawing that my friend would have given him might have been valued even higher, $4,000.
我朋友送给他的那幅画的价值可能更高，达到 4,000 美元。
He's got a $100,000 art collection.
他拥有价值10万美元的艺术品收藏。
And getting the Saatchi artists to do it means that a majority of those drawings or those works are going to actually rise in price.
让萨奇艺术家这么做意味着大部分绘画或作品的价格实际上都会上涨。
So if he holds onto it for 30 years, he could have a $1 million art collection.
因此，如果他持有它30年，他就可以拥有价值100万美元的艺术品收藏。
It's, like, crazy.
这太疯狂了。
Was any of it true, Schandra wondered.
珊德拉想知道这一切是否属实。
Was there even an autistic boy out there who loved her work?
那里有一个自闭症男孩热爱她的工作吗？
I don't know what to say.
我不知道该说什么。
But it's just-- I mean, the way that this could actually be real, I feel like you'd have to find the people and say what's going on here?
但这只是——我的意思是，这实际上可能是真实的，我觉得你必须找到人并说出这里发生了什么？
And I don't think talking, either, and I don't think writing letters, and I don't think writing emails is going to find out.
我也不认为通过交谈、写信、写电子邮件能够找到答案。
I think actually physically meeting the boy.
我想实际上是和那个男孩见面了。
I don't know.
我不知道。
So I suppose that would be A right there.
所以我想那就是A。
Shall we?
我们可以？
So feeling half like Geraldo Rivera and half like I'd just conned This American Life myself, I boarded a plane to London to either catch an international art thief or meet the loving father of an autistic teenage artist.
因此，我感觉一半像杰拉尔多·里维拉，一半像我自己欺骗了《美国生活》，于是我登上了飞往伦敦的飞机，要么抓捕一名国际艺术品窃贼，要么去见一位患有自闭症青少年艺术家的慈父。
I thought requesting an interview over email or telephone would just give this guy a chance to turn me down.
我认为通过电子邮件或电话请求采访只会给这个人一个拒绝我的机会。
This American Life producer Jonathan Menjivar joined me there.
《美国生活》制片人乔纳森·门吉瓦 (Jonathan Menjivar) 也加入了我的行列。
And on a freezing cold Sunday afternoon, we went to the address that had been included in the letters to both Schandra and Baker.
在一个寒冷的周日下午，我们去了给尚德拉和贝克的信中包含的地址。
I have to stop the tape right here.
我必须把录像带停在这里。
A woman answered the door, told us she didn't want to be recorded, asked us who we were and why we were there.
一位女士来开门，告诉我们她不想被录音，并问我们是谁以及为什么我们在那里。
She told us to go away.
她叫我们走开。
She said she smelled a rat.
她说她闻到了老鼠的味道。
We left our phone number and figured Benjamin would never call us, that we'd flown all the way to London for nothing.
我们留下了电话号码，以为本杰明永远不会给我们打电话，我们白白飞到了伦敦。
And then, in less than two hours, we were stunned when he called and even more stunned when he agreed to let us come over.
然后，不到两个小时，当他打电话时，我们都惊呆了，当他同意让我们过去时，我们更震惊了。
I'm Scott.
我是斯科特。
Scott Pinkmountain Hi, Scott.
斯科特·平克山 嗨，斯科特。
This is--
这是——
Hi.
嗨。
I'm Jonathan.
我是乔纳森。
It's nice to meet you.
很高兴认识你。
Is that recording?
那是录音吗？
Jonathan Menjivar It is recording.
乔纳森·门吉瓦尔 正在录音。
Can you turn it off for us?
你能为我们把它关掉吗？
Jonathan Menjivar Sure.
乔纳森·门吉瓦尔 当然可以。
Sure.
当然。
Come on in.
进来吧。
Come.
来吧。
Scott Pinkmountain Benjamin greeted us at the door to his home and let us in.
斯科特·平克山·本杰明在他家门口迎接我们并让我们进去。
He's a tall black man, about 40.
他是个高个子黑人，大约40岁。
He was in socks and a sweater.
他穿着袜子和毛衣。
The place was modest.
这个地方很朴素。
We entered the living room, and the woman who'd answered the door earlier, who turned out to be Benjamin's wife, was in one corner.
我们走进客厅，早先开门的那个女人，原来是本杰明的妻子，就坐在一个角落里。
A boy who was introduced to us as their younger son was on the couch playing a video game.
一个被介绍给我们的小男孩正在沙发上玩电子游戏。
There was no sign of Anthony.
没有安东尼的踪影。
But I also didn't feel comfortable asking where he was right off the bat.
但我也不太愿意立即询问他在哪里。
We thought maybe the house would be packed with drawings and paintings by artists that Benjamin had written to.
我们认为房子里可能会堆满本杰明写信给的艺术家的图画和绘画。
But there was no art on the walls.
但墙上没有任何艺术品。
Instead, there were nails and hooks where things appeared to usually hang.
相反，通常用来挂东西的地方都是钉子和钩子。
Without any prompting, Benjamin explained they were in the middle of renovation, so they took everything down.
在没有任何提示的情况下，本杰明解释说他们正在装修，所以他们把所有东西都拆掉了。
There was tape around the edge of some of the windows, and the room smelled faintly of paint.
有些窗户的边缘贴着胶带，房间里有淡淡的油漆味。
We sat down, and Benjamin asked a lot of questions, what our motivation was, who this was for.
我们坐下来，本杰明问了很多问题，我们的动机是什么，这是为了谁。
Were we going to edit and manipulate the tape?
我们要编辑和操作磁带吗？
Then he said OK, and then we started.
然后他说好的，然后我们就开始了。
I asked him to explain what's going on.
我请他解释一下发生了什么事。
Well, you know, from my perspective, Anthony is autistic.
嗯，你知道，从我的角度来看，安东尼是自闭症患者。
And he's got a gift, in my opinion, for art.
在我看来，他有艺术天赋。
Now, regarding contact with other artists, from my understanding, there's a tradition of artists exchanging works.
现在，对于与其他艺术家的接触，根据我的理解，艺术家之间有交流作品的传统。
They exchange works left, right, and center.
他们左、右、中交换作品。
Internationally, there's this constant swapping of art, you know?
在国际上，艺术不断交流，你知道吗？
So we're not doing anything different from what they're doing amongst themselves.
因此，我们所做的事情与他们之间所做的事情没有什么不同。
It's just that, probably, we're breaking into their circle in an unconventional manner.
只是，我们可能正在以一种非常规的方式闯入他们的圈子。
Now, who's this dude?
现在，这个家伙是谁？
He's written to that person and that person and that, but who is he?
他写信给那个人、那个人、那个人，但他是谁？
Is he real?
他是真的吗？
Is he some fiction?
他是小说吗？
Is he some big scam?
难道他是个大骗局？
And he's real.
他是真实的。
Yeah, I mean what would you say to that?
是的，我的意思是你对此有何评论？
Is Anthony real?
安东尼是真的吗？
Of course, Anthony's real.
当然，安东尼是真实的。
Yeah, he's real.
是的，他是真实的。
Yeah, he's absolutely real.
是的，他绝对是真实的。
Benjamin said, you'll get to see him.
本杰明说，你会见到他的。
And we realized, oh, he's actually here in the house somewhere, though Benjamin didn't seem to be in a hurry to go get him.
我们意识到，哦，他实际上就在房子里的某个地方，尽管本杰明似乎并不急于去找他。
And before we had a chance to ask, Benjamin made it clear he wasn't going to let us speak to Anthony.
在我们有机会询问之前，本杰明明确表示他不会让我们与安东尼交谈。
We wouldn't be able to talk to him directly about these art trades.
我们无法直接与他谈论这些艺术品交易。
Benjamin later explained Anthony has trouble in social situations and especially with communication.
本杰明后来解释说，安东尼在社交场合，尤其是沟通方面有困难。
He said it was best to speak on his son's behalf.
他说最好代表他儿子发言。
We asked Benjamin how many artists he'd written to the way he'd written to Schandra and Baker.
我们问本杰明，他给多少艺术家写过信，就像他给尚德拉和贝克写信一样。
He wouldn't say.
他不会说。
How many artists have you contacted or communicated with about this?
您为此接触或交流过多少位艺术家？
How many artists have spoken to you about it?
有多少艺术家和你谈过这个问题？
A couple.
一对。
Benjamin Well, off the top of my head, I don't know.
本杰明：好吧，我不知道。
But let's just leave it at that.
但我们就这样吧。
I mean, I guess-- Benjamin Specific numbers, I don't know specific numbers.
我的意思是，我猜——本杰明 具体数字，我不知道具体数字。
Well, we'll put it this way.
好吧，我们就这样说吧。
There have been quite a few.
已经有不少了。
Put it that way.
就这样说吧。
There have been quite a few.
已经有不少了。
But to give you a number off the top of my head, no. But there have been quite a few.
但我想给你一个数字，不。但已经有不少了。
Have quite a few responded by giving you drawings or paintings?
有不少人给了你图画或绘画作为回应吗？
Well, I'm guessing if you guys flew in from New York, this is not just one or two drawings we're talking about.
好吧，我猜如果你们是从纽约飞来的，我们谈论的不仅仅是一两张图画。
If you guys have come all the way from New York for this-- well, there's been quite a few.
如果你们是为了这个从纽约千里迢迢赶来的——嗯，已经有不少人了。
It's been quite a few.
已经有不少了。
Put it that way.
就这样说吧。
We were annoying.
我们很烦人。
We were persistent.
我们很执着。
At one point, Benjamin looked around the living room and answered at least a little more fully.
有一次，本杰明环视了客厅，并至少回答得更全面一些。
If you take a look behind you, unfortunately, it was a blank wall.
不幸的是，如果你回头看看，那是一堵空白的墙。
No, it's a blank wall.
不，这是一面空白的墙。
But you'll see there's some nails that we've put in.
但你会看到我们已经钉了一些钉子。
And it's because we've been painting.
这是因为我们一直在画画。
And they're right up there, basically.
基本上，他们就在那里。
Can you see?
你能看到吗？
Can you acknowledge that you do see?
你能承认你确实看到了吗？
You do see them.
你确实看到了他们。
So, basically, we hang them up on the wall.
所以，基本上，我们把它们挂在墙上。
I mean, over here, that's one work.
我的意思是，在这里，这是一项工作。
That's another work.
那是另一件作品了。
That's another work.
那是另一件作品了。
It's a blank wall because we're painting.
这是一面空白的墙，因为我们正在粉刷。
That's another work.
那是另一件作品了。
That's another work.
那是另一件作品了。
That's another one.
那是另一件事。
That's another one.
那是另一件事。
That's another one.
那是另一件事。
There were maybe a dozen blank spots on the wall.
墙上大概有十几个空白点。
Benjamin confirmed their collection was larger than that and added that they also change up what's hanging so the kids can appreciate different works.
本杰明证实他们的收藏比这个还要多，并补充说他们还改变了悬挂的东西，这样孩子们就可以欣赏不同的作品。
We asked for the names of the artists.
我们询问了艺术家的名字。
Benjamin either said he couldn't remember off the top of his head or he didn't want to violate their privacy.
本杰明要么说他记不清了，要么说他不想侵犯他们的隐私。
We asked to see Schandra's drawing.
我们要求看珊德拉的画。
We wondered if he'd sold it.
我们想知道他是否卖掉了它。
He went upstairs and was gone for a few minutes.
他上楼走了几分钟。
Then he came back with the drawing.
然后他带着画回来了。
It was unframed.
它没有装框。
Yeah, so this is it.
是的，就是这样。
We're going to have it framed and put it up eventually.
我们最终会把它装裱起来并把它放出来。
We asked lots of other questions.
我们问了很多其他问题。
Why was Benjamin's correspondence with different artists almost word for word the same?
为什么本雅明与不同艺术家的通信几乎字字都一样？
He said, it's just a formality.
他说，这只是一个形式。
Why vary it?
为什么要改变它？
We asked, how did Anthony find out about Schandra's work?
我们问，安东尼是怎么知道珊德拉的作品的？
Benjamin explained that when Anthony finds artists, well, obviously, there's some adult input.
本杰明解释说，当安东尼寻找艺术家时，很明显，会有一些成人的意见。
He said, I can't recall where we came across her wonderful work.
他说，我不记得我们在哪里看到她的精彩作品。
Did you learn about Schandra and Baker's work from the Saatchi website?
您是否从 Saatchi 网站了解了 Schandra 和 Baker 的工作？
He said he found Schandra's work online but wouldn't get more specific.
他说他在网上找到了尚德拉的作品，但不愿透露更多具体信息。
Did Anthony really have a special response to Schandra's work?
安东尼真的对珊德拉的作品有特殊的反应吗？
How do you know what he responds to?
你怎么知道他的反应是什么？
Benjamin basically said a parent can just tell.
本杰明基本上说父母可以看出来。
Have you sold any of the work you've received?
您出售了收到的作品吗？
He replied that 99.99% of the collection is intact.
他回答说，99.99%的藏品都完好无损。
After almost an hour of talking, my producer Jonathan cut in with this question.
经过近一个小时的谈话后，我的制片人乔纳森插话了这个问题。
One of the possibilities, when you look at the situation, is that you're using his autism to collect art, that it is some version of a scam.
当你观察这种情况时，其中一种可能性是你正在利用他的自闭症来收藏艺术品，这是某种形式的骗局。
That's interesting you say.
你说的很有趣。
I mean, yeah, you could say that.
我的意思是，是的，你可以这么说。
That's one way of looking at it, absolutely.
这绝对是一种看待问题的方式。
I mean, it's not a scam.
我的意思是，这不是骗局。
Put it that way.
就这样说吧。
And I would understand if people thought that.
如果人们这么想我会理解。
But it isn't a scam.
但这不是骗局。
It's just a simple love of art, you know?
这只是对艺术的简单热爱，你知道吗？
That's all it is.
仅此而已。
Yeah.
是的。
At one point, Benjamin was explaining to us what Anthony's early drawings were like.
有一次，本杰明正在向我们解释安东尼早期的画作是什么样的。
He told us Anthony was obsessed with trains.
他告诉我们安东尼对火车很着迷。
And then Anthony just wandered into the room.
然后安东尼就走进了房间。
--trains to begin with.
——首先是火车。
That's Anthony by the way.
顺便说一句，他就是安东尼。
Here's one question we got a definitive answer to.
这是我们得到明确答案的一个问题。
Anthony is very real.
安东尼很真实。
He's a tall, broad shouldered teenager.
他是一个身材高大、肩膀宽阔的少年。
He's 15 now.
他现在15岁了。
He was barefoot, and I could see that a few of his toes and fingers were slightly malformed.
他赤着脚，我可以看到他的几个脚趾和手指都有些畸形。
He only kind of acknowledged us and went and sat beside his mother.
他只是承认了我们，然后走到他母亲身边坐下。
I don't personally know much about autism, but Anthony appeared to have a disorder.
我个人对自闭症了解不多，但安东尼似乎患有这种疾病。
He spoke a few times but never to us directly.
他说过几次话，但从未直接对我们说过。
His speech was slow and hard to understand.
他的讲话很慢而且难以理解。
Benjamin told us that their other son is also autistic.
本杰明告诉我们，他们的另一个儿子也患有自闭症。
Benjamin mentioned that Anthony played piano.
本杰明提到安东尼弹钢琴。
And when we finished our interview, they brought down Anthony's keyboard and set it on the table.
当我们结束采访时，他们把安东尼的键盘拿下来放在桌子上。
I'm going to play rap.
我要去玩说唱。
Benjamin You want to play rap?
本杰明 你想玩说唱吗？
[MUSIC PLAYING] Scott Pinkmountain I'm a musician myself, and I've heard hundreds of piano improvisations.
[音乐播放] Scott Pinkmountain 我自己就是一名音乐家，我听过数百首钢琴即兴创作。
Anthony's music had the kind of spaciousness, repetition, and tiny deviations of some of my favorite avant-garde music.
安东尼的音乐具有我最喜欢的一些前卫音乐的那种宽敞、重复和微小的偏差。
It was both thoughtful and intuitive, strangely confident and vulnerable at the same time.
它既深思熟虑又直观，奇怪地自信又脆弱。
I was hearing something unique.
我听到了一些独特的东西。
I was really conflicted.
我当时真的很矛盾。
I liked the family.
我喜欢这个家庭。
They'd let us into their home and offered as tea and tolerated our questions.
他们让我们进入他们的家，为我们提供茶水，并容忍我们的问题。
I believed that these were two parents who care deeply for their children.
我相信这是两位非常关心孩子的父母。
[MUSIC PLAYING] Benjamin Wow, I'm going to clap for that.
[音乐播放] 本杰明 哇，我要为此鼓掌。
What was that piece, Anthony?
那件作品是什么，安东尼？
I couldn't tell it.
我说不出来。
I'm really [INAUDIBLE] Antipop Consortium.
我真的是[听不清] Antipop 联盟。
Oh, OK.
哦，好吧。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Anthony It's from [INAUDIBLE].
安东尼 这是来自[听不清]。
OK.
好的。
I'm going to let him go.
我要让他走了。
Scott Pinkmountain Thank you so much.
斯科特·平克山 非常感谢。
Thank you very much.
非常感谢。
Scott Pinkmountain When I got home, Benjamin finally gave me the names of a few artists who've collaborate with Anthony.
斯科特·平克山 当我回到家时，本杰明终于给了我一些与安东尼合作过的艺术家的名字。
I was able to reach three of them.
我能够联系到其中三个。
They'd all gotten letters similar to Schandra's saying, I have an autistic son who's fallen in love with your art.
他们都收到了类似于珊德拉所说的信，“我有一个患有自闭症的儿子，他爱上了你的艺术。”
Two of them got chocolates.
其中两个人得到了巧克力。
The only artist I spoke to who actually met Benjamin and Anthony was Tillman Kaiser.
我采访过的唯一一位真正见过本杰明和安东尼的艺术家是蒂尔曼·凯撒。
They showed up at his gallery show in London last summer.
去年夏天，他们出现在他在伦敦举行的画廊展上。
He was also the only one who was able to address our biggest question, the thing we couldn't figure out at Benjamin's.
他也是唯一能够解决我们最大问题的人，这是我们在本杰明无法解决的问题。
Was Anthony truly engaged with the art his dad was exposing him to?
安东尼真的热衷于他父亲向他展示的艺术吗？
He was standing in front of the canvasses and sculptures and had a look.
他站在画布和雕塑前观看。
And I really had the impression that he enjoyed meeting me.
我确实觉得他很高兴见到我。
And he seemed to be quite interested in the paintings and looked at them one by one.
而且他似乎对那些画作颇为感兴趣，一幅幅的看着。
Tillman said Anthony even made up his own titles for a couple paintings.
蒂尔曼说安东尼甚至为几幅画作了自己的标题。
"Elephant Ears." And the other one, he called it "Drug Addiction." I mean, I think it's totally weired what they're doing.
“大象耳朵。”另一种，他称之为“毒瘾”。我的意思是，我认为他们所做的事情非常奇怪。
But I don't want to judge them, you know?
但我不想评判他们，你知道吗？
I don't want to say they do bad things.
我不想说他们做坏事。
Finally, I met again with Schandra and told her what I'd learned, that Anthony does exist, that he probably has some disorder, that Benjamin seems to be collecting from quite a few artists.
最后，我再次见到了珊德拉，告诉她我所了解到的，安东尼确实存在，他可能患有某种疾病，本杰明似乎从不少艺术家那里收集了这些疾病。
She was torn.
她很伤心。
It's like on the one hand, it's really wonderful.
一方面，这真的很棒。
I wish maybe it would have been-- I guess, wish that maybe it would have been proposed to me that we have this autistic child, he really responds to art, we're amassing a collection of art for him to learn from, to be inspired from, to realize his own talents.
我希望也许是——我想，希望也许有人向我提议，我们有一个自闭症孩子，他真的对艺术有反应，我们正在收集一系列艺术作品供他学习，从中获得启发，实现他自己的才能。
It would be so special if we could do a trade with you, because we know he loves your work.
如果我们能与您进行交易那就太特别了，因为我们知道他热爱您的工作。
Like, all these things maybe would have helped me kind of understand, as opposed to writing an email saying, you're the one that moves Anthony.
就像，所有这些事情也许会帮助我理解，而不是写一封电子邮件说，你是感动安东尼的人。
Well, I mean, I think it's a wonderful story then, that he's wanting to do all of this for his children.
嗯，我的意思是，我认为这是一个很棒的故事，他想为他的孩子们做这一切。
But it's just like, why did Baker and I feel so awkward when we found out that we both got asked the same thing?
但这就像，当我和贝克发现我们都被问到同样的问题时，为什么我们感到如此尴尬？
Why did we both think it was so much about us, you know?
为什么我们都认为这与我们息息相关，你知道吗？
So yes, Schandra thinks Benjamin could be more transparent with the artists he's contacting.
所以，是的，桑德拉认为本杰明可以对他接触的艺术家更加透明。
But I agree, if he's doing this for his kids, that's a wonderful story.
但我同意，如果他是为了他的孩子们这样做，那是一个很棒的故事。
It's optimistic.
很乐观。
And so many artists are optimists.
很多艺术家都是乐观主义者。
Proof?
证明？
Schandra's friend Baker, hearing what we discovered in London, still wants to send Anthony a drawing.
珊德拉的朋友贝克听到我们在伦敦的发现后，仍然想给安东尼寄一幅画。
Two of the other artists I'd spoke to, artists who'd sent Anthony their work, were totally OK with what Benjamin's doing.
我采访过的另外两位艺术家（将作品发送给安东尼的艺术家）对本杰明的做法完全满意。
And if there's one thing I've learned from this experience it's that, man, artists are an easy mark, because it's so obvious what they want.
如果说我从这次经历中学到了一件事的话，那就是，艺术家是一个容易被标记的人，因为他们想要什么是显而易见的。
They want to reach people.
他们想要接触人们。
Otherwise, why show your art?
不然为什么要展示你的艺术呢？
Why be an artist?
为什么要成为一名艺术家？
So all you have to say is, I'm moved by what you do, or my kid is moved by what you do.
所以你要说的就是，我被你所做的事情感动了，或者我的孩子被你所做的事情感动了。
So many artists are like, you want to pay me?
很多艺术家都说，你想付钱给我吗？
Great.
伟大的。
But you say you love my work?
但你说你喜欢我的工作？
Even better.
甚至更好。
Let me send you some.
让我给你寄一些。
Scott Pinkmountain is a composer and musician and writer in Pioneer Town, California.
斯科特·平克山 (Scott Pinkmountain) 是加利福尼亚州先锋镇的一位作曲家、音乐家和作家。
By the way, you can see some of Anthony's artwork at our website.
顺便说一句，您可以在我们的网站上看到安东尼的一些艺术作品。
[MUSIC PLAYING - "LET ME MOVE YOU" BY JIMI HENDRIX]
[音乐播放 - 吉米·亨德里克斯的《让我感动你》]
Our program was produced today by Robyn Semien and me with Alex Blumberg, Ben Calhoun, Sarah Koenig, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Brian Reed, Alissa Shipp and Nancy Updike.
今天我们的节目由 Robyn Semien 和我与 Alex Blumberg、Ben Calhoun、Sarah Koenig、Miki Meek、Jonathan Menjivar、Brian Reed、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 共同制作。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Production help from Phia Bennin.
菲亚·贝宁 (Phia Bennin) 提供制作帮助。
Seth Lind is our operations director.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的运营总监。
Emily Condon's our production manager.
艾米丽·康登是我们的生产经理。
Elise Bergerson is our administrative assistant.
埃莉斯·伯格森是我们的行政助理。
Music help from Damien Graef and Rob Geddes.
Damien Graef 和 Rob Geddes 提供音乐帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
[致谢] 我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
WBEZ management oversight for our program by our boss Mr. Torey Malatia.
我们的老板 Torey Malatia 先生对我们的项目进行 WBEZ 管理监督。
You know, I have asked him so many times over the years, over and over.
你知道，这些年来我问过他很多次，一遍又一遍。
And every time I get the same answer.
每次我都会得到相同的答案。
I ask him, Torey, how many women have you slept with?
我问他，托里，你睡过多少个女人？
Quite a few, of course.
当然，不少。
Put it that way.
就这样说吧。
There's been quite a few.
已经有不少了。
But, you know, to give you a number off the top of my head, no. But there have been quite a few.
但是，你知道，我想给你一个数字，不。但已经有不少了。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
[MUSIC PLAYING -"LET ME MOVE YOU" BY JIMI HENDRIX]
[音乐播放 - 吉米·亨德里克斯的《让我感动你》]
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。