491: Tribes - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #491 | April 4, 2014 491: Tribes Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 491 集 | 2014 年 4 月 4 日 491：部落 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass This guy I know, David Rudis, was talking to me on the phone last week.
序言 Ira Glass 我认识的这个人，David Rudis，上周和我通了电话。
He wanted me to help out with this Jewish organization that he's part of.
他希望我为他所属的这个犹太组织提供帮助。
David is concerned about the fact that fewer and fewer Jews are joining Jewish organizations and identifying as Jews.
大卫担心加入犹太组织并自认是犹太人的犹太人越来越少。
He thinks those organizations need to make themselves more relevant to modern Jews.
他认为这些组织需要让自己与现代犹太人更加相关。
And I was telling him, that's fine for him, but that is just not my thing.
我告诉他，这对他来说很好，但这不是我的事。
Yes, I'm Jewish, but I don't believe in God.
是的，我是犹太人，但我不相信上帝。
I married a non-Jew.
我嫁给了一个非犹太人。
I've been eating bread all this week during Passover.
逾越节期间我整个星期都在吃面包。
I have plenty of interesting Jews in my life and feel no need to meet any more.
我的生活中有很多有趣的犹太人，我觉得没有必要再见面了。
Why would I ever join a Jewish organization?
我为什么要加入犹太组织？
This, of course, led to the brief obligatory discussion of the Holocaust, which is what we Jews always talk about at a point like this in a conversation like this.
当然，这导致了对大屠杀的简短强制性讨论，这也是我们犹太人在这样的对话中总是在这样的时刻谈论的内容。
And David was very insistent that it doesn't matter if I think of myself as a Jew.
大卫非常坚持认为我是否认为自己是犹太人并不重要。
I just am a Jew.
我只是一个犹太人。
I think, Ira, you don't even begin to realize how much this identity has affected your life.
我想，艾拉，你甚至没有开始意识到这个身份对你的生活有多大的影响。
As an avid listener to your show, there is something profoundly Jewish in the contents of what you're producing, whether you know it or not.
作为您节目的热心听众，无论您是否知道，您制作的内容中都存在着深刻的犹太色彩。
I'm so surprised to hear you say that you think of the show as a Jewish kind of cultural product, because I don't think of it that way at all.
我很惊讶地听到你说你认为这个节目是一种犹太文化产品，因为我根本不这么认为。
See, I actually think it is.
你看，我确实这么认为。
If you're playing morality plays to get into the hearts and heads of people on a weekly basis, what is more Jewish than that, than telling and interpreting a story?
如果你每周都在演道德剧来深入人们的内心和头脑，那么还有什么比讲述和解释一个故事更符合犹太教的呢？
It's in your DNA.
它存在于你的 DNA 中。
I suggested to him that telling stories is kind of something that every culture does, not just the Jews.
我向他建议，讲故事是每种文化都会做的事情，而不仅仅是犹太人。
David says sure, but so what?
大卫说当然可以，但那又怎样呢？
Literally what you're doing really is profoundly Jewish.
从字面上看，你所做的事情确实是非常犹太化的。
It was a weird conversation.
这是一次奇怪的谈话。
David thinks that in our big, multicultural world, of course it is just old-fashioned for people to identify strictly with their own ethnic tribe.
大卫认为，在我们这个多元文化的大世界里，人们严格认同自己的民族部落当然已经过时了。
He told me that he remembered when he first moved to Chicago decades ago, it was standard back then for people to just meet you and ask what are you?
他告诉我，他记得几十年前他第一次搬到芝加哥时，当时人们见面时通常会问你是谁？
Meaning, what neighborhood are you from?
意思是，你来自哪个街区？
What parish?
什么教区？
What religion?
什么宗教？
It seemed really weird to him at the time.
当时他觉得这真的很奇怪。
But at that same time as he was saying this he says-- no contradiction here-- he just likes having his own tribe and would like me to come join the herd.
但在他说这句话的同时，他说——这里并不矛盾——他只是喜欢拥有自己的部落，并希望我加入这个群体。
There's a scientist at UCLA named Jared Diamond, who came out recently with this book called The World Until Yesterday that's about how humans lived on this planet until about 10,000 years ago.
加州大学洛杉矶分校有一位名叫贾里德·戴蒙德 (Jared Diamond) 的科学家，他最近出版了一本名为《昨天的世界》(The World Until Yesterday) 的书，讲述了大约一万年前人类如何在这个星球上生活。
When everybody lived, literally, in a tribe of a few hundred people, or a small band of a few dozen people.
当每个人都生活在一个几百人的部落或几十人的小团体中时。
And Jared Diamond writes this thing about life then, about what it means to actually live in a tribe, that I had never heard before that really just stuck with me.
贾里德·戴蒙德（Jared Diamond）写了这篇关于生活的文章，关于生活在一个部落中的真正意义，这是我以前从未听说过的，这让我印象深刻。
He says that in these societies, because they were so small, you knew everybody.
他说，在这些社会中，因为它们很小，所以你认识每个人。
You never encountered strangers.
你从来没有遇到过陌生人。
You never ran into them.
你从来没有遇到过他们。
The idea that you could just wander around and meet someone is utterly impossible in New Guinea.
在新几内亚，你可以随意闲逛并遇到某人的想法是完全不可能的。
If you ran across a strange person on your land, that could only mean that they were there for some bad reason.
如果你在自己的土地上遇到一个陌生人，那只能意味着他们在那里是出于某种不好的原因。
They were there to scout out your land for a raid, or to steal a woman, or to steal a pig.
他们在那里侦察你的土地以进行袭击，或者偷一个女人，或者偷一头猪。
And so if you ran into a strange person in the forest and you couldn't run away from him, you came around a corner and there he was, then the two of you would sit down.
所以，如果你在森林里遇到一个陌生人，而你又无法逃离他，你走到一个拐角处，他就在那里，然后你们两个就会坐下来。
And you'd have a long conversation in which each of you names all your relatives, trying to find some relative in common which gives you a reason not to kill each other.
你们会进行一次很长的谈话，其中每个人都说出自己所有亲戚的名字，试图找到一些共同的亲戚，这给了你们一个不互相残杀的理由。
And if after two hours you haven't found any relative in common, then one of you starts running or you try to kill the other person.
如果两个小时后你们还没有找到任何共同的亲戚，那么你们中的一个人就会开始逃跑，或者你会试图杀死另一个人。
Diamond talked to me on the phone from Jakarta.
戴蒙德在雅加达通过电话与我交谈。
He had just gotten there.
他刚到那里。
Back to electricity and showers after three weeks off the grid in Papua, New Guinea.
新几内亚巴布亚断电三周后恢复供电和淋浴。
I wanted to speak with him, because I wondered what he thought this story meant.
我想和他谈谈，因为我想知道他认为这个故事意味着什么。
Was he saying, OK, this is who we are?
他是在说，好吧，这就是我们吗？
This is just built into us to be suspicious and fearful of outsiders?
这只是我们生来对外人的怀疑和恐惧吗？
To want to stick to our own tribe?
想坚持我们自己的部落吗？
It's going too far to do that.
这样做太过分了。
People can be more or less suspicious of strangers, and it depends upon the circumstance.
人们或多或少会对陌生人产生怀疑，这取决于具体情况。
And so he says, for instance, the circumstances when humans lived in small traditional societies, there was good reason to fear strangers.
所以他说，例如，当人类生活在小型传统社会中时，有充分的理由害怕陌生人。
As soon as human societies grew bigger, into groups of thousands of people, you'd run into strangers all the time.
一旦人类社会变得更大，变成了数千人的群体，你就会随时遇到陌生人。
It was normal.
这很正常。
You wouldn't have these same reasons to fear strangers, and so we stopped in lots of places.
你不会有同样的理由害怕陌生人，所以我们在很多地方停下来。
Though apropos of my conversation with David Rudis, Jared Diamond said that one of the things that does seem to have been true of traditional small societies 10,000 years ago that is still true today is an obsession with who's in and who's out, and seeing that people stick with the rules.
贾里德·戴蒙德在谈到我与大卫·鲁迪斯的谈话时表示，一万年前的传统小社会似乎确实存在这样的情况，今天仍然如此，那就是对谁进谁出局的痴迷，并看到人们遵守规则。
It's whenever there's a group, you have the problem of figuring out who really is a member of your group.
每当有一个团体时，你就会遇到弄清楚谁真正是你的团体成员的问题。
And who is just pretending to be a member of the group for advantages.
而谁只是冒充团体成员来获取利益。
That may be part of the reason why humans have these very complicated cultures, including languages and body mutilation.
这可能是人类拥有这些非常复杂的文化（包括语言和身体残害）的部分原因。
If I come into a group and I say, I'm really a long-lost member of your group but I can't speak your language and I haven't tattooed myself.
如果我进入一个团体，我说，我确实是你们团体中失散已久的成员，但我不会说你们的语言，而且我自己也没有纹身。
Then it'll immediately be obvious that I'm not a member of your group.
那么很快就会明显看出我不是你们小组的成员。
So all groups have what are called "expensive" ways of identifying themselves honestly so that you can't just fake it.
因此，所有群体都有所谓“昂贵”的方式来诚实地表明自己的身份，这样你就不能伪造它。
Right.
正确的。
And the reason why it's so universal, is it just because if somebody can sneak in and be part of your group then they're getting access to stuff that's really yours?
它之所以如此普遍，是否只是因为如果有人可以潜入并成为您的团队的一部分，那么他们就可以获得真正属于您的东西？
[INAUDIBLE] he says that that is the actual scientific term.
[听不清]他说那是真正的科学术语。
That's the one that anthropologists use-- "freeloader."
这就是人类学家所说的——“贪图便宜”。
Well today on our radio show, we hear very different kinds of groups struggle with this question, who's in and who's out.
今天，在我们的广播节目中，我们听到不同类型的群体都在为这个问题而苦苦挣扎，谁在，谁在外。
It's the question which, of course, over history has led to purges, witch hunts, factionalism, the assassination of Trotsky, the Spanish Inquisition.
当然，这个问题在历史上导致了清洗、政治迫害、派系斗争、暗杀托洛茨基和西班牙宗教裁判所。
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition, right?
没人会想到西班牙宗教裁判所，对吧？
Well, we probably should.
好吧，我们也许应该这样做。
It happens all the time.
这种事经常发生。
Today on our program we have three stories of three groups, including one whose defining characteristic is that they talk very evenly and softly.
今天在我们的节目中，我们有三组的三个故事，其中一个的典型特征是他们说话非常平稳和轻柔。
From WBEZ, Chicago, it's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.
这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One: I Know I Am, But What Are You?
第一幕：我知道我是，但你是什么？
Ira Glass Act One, I Know I Am, But What Are You?
艾拉·格拉斯 第一幕，我知道我是，但你是谁？
This story is about a group arguing over that most basic thing that any group can fight over-- who should be a member.
这个故事是关于一个团体争论任何团体都可以争论的最基本的事情——谁应该成为成员。
The group is an Indian tribe in California, the Chukchansi, in the middle of the state.
该群体是加利福尼亚州中部的一个印第安部落楚克坎西 (Chukchansi)。
Currently about 900 members.
目前会员约900人。
One of many small tribes in California, and the dispute has gotten pretty bitter.
加利福尼亚州众多小部落之一，争议已经变得相当激烈。
David Ferry explains just how far they've gone.
大卫·费里 (David Ferry) 解释了他们已经走了多远。
Here's how bad things have gotten with the Chukchansi.
以下是 Chukchansi 的情况变得多么糟糕。
About a year ago they had an election for their tribal government-- it's called the tribal council.
大约一年前，他们举行了部落政府选举——称为部落理事会。
Four people won majorities, but the old counsel refused to step down.
四人赢得多数，但老律师拒绝下台。
They disqualified the winners and changed the locks on the tribe's equivalent of City Hall, which is actually a trailer like you'd see on a construction site, but a little bigger.
他们取消了获胜者的资格，并更换了部落相当于市政厅的锁，这实际上是一辆拖车，就像你在建筑工地上看到的那样，但更大一点。
So two dozen tribal members who wanted the candidates they voted in to actually take office decided to go to City Hall, the trailer, early one morning and occupy the building.
因此，希望自己投票的候选人真正就职的两打部落成员决定在一天一早前往市政厅（拖车）并占领该建筑。
Here we go.
开始了。
Here we go.
开始了。
Here we go.
开始了。
Here we go.
开始了。
Here we go.
开始了。
This is from video taken by one of the occupiers of the building.
这是该建筑的一名占用者拍摄的视频。
It was meant to be a peaceful takeover, although they did break a window to get inside.
这本来是一次和平的接管，尽管他们确实打破了窗户进入。
They made coffee, ordered pizza and walked around the trailer with homemade signs.
他们煮了咖啡，点了披萨，举着自制的标语在拖车周围走来走去。
But loyalists of the incumbents, the counsel that refused to step down, started showing up.
但现任者的忠实拥护者、拒绝下台的律师开始出现。
They were angry.
他们很生气。
[INTERPOSING VOICES] Man 2 Get back in there.
[插话] Man 2 回到那里。
Calm down, you guys.
冷静点，你们。
[BLEEP] David Ferry One of the winning candidates who wasn't allowed to take her seat is Dixie Jackson.
[BLEEP] David Ferry 未被允许就座的获胜候选人之一是迪克西·杰克逊 (Dixie Jackson)。
She was inside the trailer for the occupation.
她在占领的拖车内。
She thought she heard a gunshot at one point.
她认为她曾一度听到一声枪响。
I said hit it, and I went down and hit the floor.
我说打吧，然后我就倒在地板上。
Well then, I couldn't get up because, of course, I got a bad hip and bad knees.
那么，我无法站起来，当然，因为我的臀部和膝盖都不好。
Dixie's in her 70s.
迪克西已经 70 多岁了。
Here's Morris Read, another winner, also in his 70s.
这是另一位获奖者莫里斯·里德 (Morris Read)，他也已经 70 多岁了。
Once they broke the windows, they started spraying in that pepper spray.
一旦他们打破了窗户，他们就开始喷胡椒喷雾。
And we started to have a hard time breathing.
我们开始呼吸困难。
And then all of a sudden they're throwing in burning logs.
然后突然他们扔进燃烧的木头。
I think there was two of them that they threw through the window.
我想他们有两个是从窗户扔出去的。
And our people get wet rags and papers where we could put over our mouths so we could breathe.
我们的人民会拿湿布和纸来捂住嘴，这样我们就可以呼吸。
We're not walking out!
我们不出去！
You were voted out by 150!
你被 150 票选掉了！
Walk away!
走开！
You walk away!
你走开！
By nighttime, the occupation had turned into a siege.
到了晚上，占领变成了围攻。
A crowd of 50 people outside cut off the power to the building, and then the water.
外面的 50 人切断了大楼的电源，然后又切断了水。
They shot more pepper spray down into the ventilation system.
他们向通风系统喷射了更多胡椒喷雾。
Dixie and Morris and the other elders crowded into a tiny bathroom in the middle of the trailer for safety.
为了安全起见，迪克西、莫里斯和其他长辈挤在拖车中间的一间小浴室里。
Someone called the cops and they showed up-- sheriffs from Fresno and Madera County, and the California Highway Patrol.
有人报了警，警察也出现了——弗雷斯诺县和马德拉县的治安官，以及加州高速公路巡逻队。
But they couldn't intervene, because this was an internal tribal matter.
但他们也不能插手，因为这是部落内部的事情。
By morning, 40 people were fist fighting in the parking lot outside the trailer.
到早上，40人在拖车外的停车场打架。
Local TV crews captured the tail end of it.
当地电视台工作人员捕捉到了这一幕的尾声。
In the midst of the madness, one teenager was stabbed and two people were injured.
疯狂之中，一名青少年被刺伤，两人受伤。
All your people are going to [BLEEP] prison for this, too.
你们所有的人也会因此而[哔]进监狱。
Two people were taken into custody.
两人被拘留。
As for what caused the fighting--
至于打斗的原因——
This failed occupation, the election fiasco, it's all about one thing-- something called "disenrollment." That's the word Indians use for kicking someone out of the tribe.
这次失败的占领，这次选举的惨败，都与一件事有关——叫做“退出”。这是印第安人用来将某人踢出部落的词。
They get disenrolled.
他们被开除。
For years now, the Chukchansi tribe has been disenrolling its own members-- dozens, sometimes hundreds of people at a time.
多年来，Chukchansi 部落一直在取消自己的成员资格——一次有数十人，有时甚至数百人。
The tribal members who occupy the trailer, the winners of the election, they wanted to stop the disenrollments-- the people outside didn't.
占据拖车的部落成员，选举的获胜者，他们想要阻止退出——外面的人却没有。
Lots of tribes in California are disenrolling people, but the Chukchansi are sort of a poster tribe for it.
加利福尼亚州的许多部落都在取消人们的登记，但楚克坎西人是这方面的典型部落。
Best estimates have the tribe shrinking from about 1,800 people, down to about 900.
最乐观的估计是，该部落的人数从约 1,800 人减少到约 900 人。
So the tribe has cut itself in half, and almost all this has happened since they opened a casino.
于是部落就将自己切成了两半，而这一切几乎都是从他们开赌场以来就发生过的。
A big, shiny Casino with a spa, and a hotel, and a high roller club, 10 years ago in 2003.
10 年前的 2003 年，一家闪亮的大型赌场，设有水疗中心、一家酒店和一家豪赌客俱乐部。
At the foot of beautiful Yosemite Valley, there's a sound.
美丽的约塞米蒂山谷脚下，有声音。
Cha-ching!
查清！
David Ferry This is one of their ads.
大卫·费里 这是他们的广告之一。
Let me hear that cha-ching!
让我听听那个恰清！
Male Announcer Oh yeah, Chukchansi Gold Resort and Casino.
男播音员哦，是的，Chukchansi 黄金度假村和赌场。
The sweet sound of cha-ching!
清脆悦耳的声音！
David Ferry The math is simple.
大卫·费里 数学很简单。
If they have fewer people in the tribe, each person gets more of the sweet sound of cha-ching-- more profit from the casino.
如果部落中的人数较少，每个人都能听到更多的查琴声，即从赌场获得更多利润。
Right now each Chukchansi only gets a few hundred dollars a month in casino profits.
现在每个Chukchansi每个月只能从赌场获得几百美元的利润。
A tribal member named Nicki Livingston told me that when her friend Nancy was kicked out a few months ago, she could see it in her payout check.
一位名叫妮基·利文斯顿 (Nicki Livingston) 的部落成员告诉我，几个月前，当她的朋友南希 (Nancy) 被赶出家门时，她可以在付款支票上看到这一点。
We got a raise on our per capita check after she got disenrolled.
她退学后，我们的人均支票得到了提高。
You got more money per month after your close friend was disenrolled from the tribe?
当你的好朋友被部落除名后，你每个月得到的钱更多了吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Me and my sisters, my two older sisters and myself, we were together when we heard that news.
当我们听到这个消息时，我和我的姐妹们、我的两个姐姐和我自己都在一起。
And we saw it [INAUDIBLE] saw it on our bank statements, and all three of us cried.
我们在银行对账单上看到了它[听不清]，我们三个人都哭了。
It's done off the skin of someone's back.
它是从某人背部的皮肤上剥下来的。
She says the checks were around $280 per month before Nancy and several dozen other people were kicked out.
她说，在南希和其他几十个人被赶出去之前，每月的支票约为 280 美元。
She says it jumped about $380 a month after.
她说一个月后价格上涨了约 380 美元。
There's another tribe just down the road from the Chukchansi, and its paid tens of thousands of dollars a month to each member.
距离 Chukchansi 不远的地方还有另一个部落，每月向每个成员支付数万美元。
And that's because their tribe only has around 75 people.
那是因为他们的部落只有大约 75 人。
Chukchansi officials usually deny that disenrollment has anything to do with casino money.
Chukchansi 官员通常否认退出与赌场资金有任何关系。
They say all they're doing is correcting the membership rolls.
他们说他们所做的只是纠正会员名册。
Getting rid of the people who don't belong in the tribe.
赶走不属于部落的人。
But Reggie Lewis, the tribal chairman who refused to step down when he was voted out of office, said to me, sure money has something to do with disenrollments, but why shouldn't it?
但是，被选下台后拒绝下台的部落主席雷吉·刘易斯对我说，钱肯定与退出登记有关，但为什么不应该呢？
We don't have that much to share.
我们没有那么多可以分享的。
We've got tribal members who are living in gutted out trailers with no sanitary facilities, without power.
我们的部落成员住在破旧的拖车里，没有卫生设施，也没有电力。
And then we have people who are trying to take advantage of being a tribal member when they're not entitled to be in.
然后，我们有些人在无权加入部落时试图利用自己的部落成员身份。
[MUFFLED SOUNDS] David Ferry This is the sound of my producer putting the microphone away as we're talking to a Chukchansi woman who'd agreed to be interviewed, but was so worried about repercussions that she kept going off the record or going silent.
[低沉的声音]大卫·费里 这是我的制片人收起麦克风的声音，当时我们正在与一位同意接受采访的 Chukchansi 女士交谈，但她非常担心后果，因此一直不说话或保持沉默。
By the time I got to her, I was used to this.
当我接触到她的时候，我已经习惯了。
So many Chukchansi refused to talk, or agreed but then backed out saying that they were too scared.
很多楚克坎西人拒绝说话，或者同意但后来又退出说他们太害怕了。
I asked this woman, who didn't want her name used, what people are scared of.
我问这位不愿透露姓名的女士，人们害怕什么。
In my opinion, most of them are afraid because they either have members, loved ones or themselves that are employed.
在我看来，他们中的大多数人都感到害怕，因为他们要么有成员，要么有亲人，要么自己有工作。
How many people do you think you know who've been fired from the casino?
您认为您认识有多少人被赌场解雇了？
What's happening in the silence after my question is she's pointing at the microphone and shaking her head no. This woman had already been disenrolled, and she still didn't want to talk.
在我问完之后，在一片寂静中发生的事情是，她指着麦克风摇头说“不”。这女人已经被注销了，她还不想说话。
She has family members who work at the casino.
她有家人在赌场工作。
And like everyone else we met like that, she took it as a given, rightly or wrongly, that they might be fired if she spoke out.
和我们遇到的其他人一样，无论对错，她都认为如果她说出来，他们可能会被解雇。
The tribal council appoints the people who oversee the casino.
部落理事会任命监督赌场的人。
There aren't a lot of jobs in this part of California.
加州这个地区的工作岗位并不多。
And the tribal council's very powerful-- in the community, and in the casino.
部落委员会在社区和赌场中非常强大。
Disenrollment could mean serious financial hardship.
退学可能意味着严重的经济困难。
When you're part of the tribe, you get a bunch of services.
当你成为部落的一员时，你会得到很多服务。
So on top of losing the monthly casino payout, people who are disenrolled also lose subsidies for child care and housing.
因此，除了失去每月的赌场支出外，被注销的人还失去了儿童保育和住房补贴。
Older members lose more-- a $300 monthly food stipend and extra cash to cover utilities.
年长的会员损失更多——每月 300 美元的食品津贴和支付水电费的额外现金。
So no surprise there's now this culture of paranoia in the tribe.
因此，部落中现在存在这种偏执文化也就不足为奇了。
The anti-disenrollment folks are sure that some people who seem to be on their side are really spies for the other side.
反退党人士确信，一些看似站在他们一边的人实际上是另一方的间谍。
I was talking to Morris Reed and Dixie Jackson, the ones who were elected to the tribal council but never seated.
我正在与莫里斯·里德和迪克西·杰克逊交谈，他们被选为部落理事会成员，但从未就座。
They're the ones who hid in the trailer choking on pepper spray.
他们就是那些躲在拖车里被胡椒喷雾窒息的人。
And Dixie said that at one point they tried to get tribal members to sign a petition supporting them, calling for an end to disenrollment.
迪克西说，他们一度试图让部落成员签署一份支持他们的请愿书，呼吁结束退学。
She said it went nowhere.
她说没有任何进展。
Even our own family says that they don't want to sign.
连我们自己的家人都说不想签字。
Because then their names will be on the list that we support you, and therefore we will be subject to retaliation.
因为那样他们的名字就会出现在我们支持你的名单上，因此我们会受到报复。
Dixie said one of her daughters had been fired from the casino two weeks earlier.
迪克西说，两周前她的一个女儿已被赌场解雇。
She suspected it was retaliation against her family for occupying the trailer and opposing the tribal council.
她怀疑这是对她的家人占领拖车并反对部落理事会的报复。
A casino spokesman told me the firing was not political.
赌场发言人告诉我，解雇并非政治原因。
As Dixie was telling me about all this, the phone rang.
当迪克西告诉我这一切时，电话响了。
We were sitting around Morris's kitchen table.
我们坐在莫里斯厨房的桌子旁。
Morris answered it, and it was actually for Dixie.
莫里斯接了电话，实际上是给迪克西的。
Yes, she is.
是的，她是。
Do you want to talk to her?
你想和她说话吗？
Somebody wants to talk to you.
有人想和你说话。
Yes?
是的？
Yes.
是的。
David Ferry Dixie didn't talk long.
大卫·费里·迪克西没有说太多话。
It was about another daughter who still worked at the casino.
这是关于仍在赌场工作的另一个女儿的故事。
They walked my daughter, the other daughter that was director of floor games.
他们带走了我的女儿，另一个女儿是场地游戏总监。
OK, yes.
好的，是的。
Dixie Jackson They walked her out just now.
迪克西·杰克逊 他们刚才送她出去了。
Uh huh.
嗯嗯。
David Ferry The casino said this firing was also unrelated to the family's politics.
大卫·费里赌场表示，此次解雇也与家族政治无关。
Bryan Galt saw how the disenrollments got started, and he's one of the few who saw it from the inside.
布莱恩·高尔特（Bryan Galt）目睹了退学是如何开始的，他是少数从内部看到这一情况的人之一。
He worked in the Chukchansi Enrollment Office, the office that decides who's a member and who's not.
他在 Chukchansi 招生办公室工作，该办公室决定谁是会员，谁不是会员。
Back in 2003, when the casino first opened, the enrollment office was really just a room, he says, with six file cabinets and a computer.
他说，早在 2003 年，赌场刚开业时，招生办公室实际上只是一个房间，有六个文件柜和一台电脑。
But it was where the tribe stored all of its documents on everybody's ancestry.
但这是部落存储所有关于每个人祖先的文件的地方。
Before the casino was built, you just needed a birth certificate and some proof that you're a lineal descendant of a Chukchansi.
在赌场建成之前，您只需要出生证明和一些证明您是楚克查西人的直系后裔的证明即可。
I don't think you can imagine a more messed up filing system.
我想你无法想象还有比这更混乱的归档系统了。
Because it had been years of just people just shoving stuff in the files.
因为多年来人们只是把东西塞进文件里。
You were there though.
但你当时就在那里。
Was the enrollment committee about letting people in, or was it about kicking people out?
招生委员会是为了让人进来，还是为了把人赶出去？
Well initially it was to help straighten out the records because they in such disarray.
最初是为了帮助理顺记录，因为它们非常混乱。
And then the casino opened, and then it started to become a head hunting expedition.
然后赌场开业了，然后开始变成猎头探险。
Find out how people can be disenrolled.
了解如何注销人员。
Bryan says that mandate came from the top, the tribal council, but he didn't agree with it.
布莱恩说，这项命令来自部落理事会的最高层，但他不同意。
My committee, we refused to take action against anyone who was already enrolled because we didn't think it was fair.
我的委员会，我们拒绝对任何已经注册的人采取行动，因为我们认为这不公平。
You're going to what-- tell 80-year-old ladies that they're going to have to go to the National Archive and find information that no one had ever told them they needed for the last 15 years?
你要告诉 80 岁的女士，她们必须去国家档案馆找到过去 15 年来从未有人告诉过她们需要的信息？
They're enrolled-- just leave it at that.
他们已经注册了——就这样吧。
So we argued for the next two years about this.
所以我们为此争论了两年。
Have you ever seen a Jerry Springer episode?
你看过杰瑞·斯普林格的剧集吗？
You'd go to monthly meetings, and that's how it was.
你每月都会去参加会议，事情就是这样。
There was no Dances With Wolves type mentality.
没有与狼共舞的心态。
I hate that movie for that reason.
由于这个原因我讨厌那部电影。
They show the wise old tribal chief, you know, that's all I have to say, and everyone's polite to each other through the whole meeting.
他们向我们展示了睿智的老部落酋长，你知道，这就是我要说的，整个会议期间每个人都互相礼貌。
And I'm like, I don't know what meeting those guys are at, but I've never been to one of those.
我想，我不知道那些人在参加什么会议，但我从来没有参加过其中之一。
This is a small tribe, remember.
请记住，这是一个小部落。
Everyone knows everybody else.
每个人都认识其他人。
And everyone thinks they know who's pushing to disenroll people.
每个人都认为他们知道是谁在推动人们退学。
There's a family called the Wyatts, and there's another called the Ramirezes.
有一个家族叫怀亚特家族，还有一个家族叫拉米雷兹家族。
The Ramirezes actually filed a lawsuit last year, arguing that they are the only legitimate members of the tribe-- just their family.
拉米雷兹一家实际上去年提起了诉讼，称他们是部落唯一的合法成员——只是他们的家人。
The case was thrown out.
案件被驳回。
I reached out to members of both families, but no one agreed to speak on tape.
我联系了两个家庭的成员，但没有人同意在录音中发言。
One person who's supported disenrollment for years is Reggie Lewis.
雷吉·刘易斯（Reggie Lewis）是多年来支持退学的人之一。
He's the tribal leader you heard from earlier who refused to step down after the election.
他是您之前听说过的部落领袖，他在选举后拒绝下台。
He says the disenrollments are necessary because of the weird history of the tribe.
他说，由于该部落的怪异历史，退出是必要的。
The Federal government disbanded them in 1958, along with lots of other California tribes.
1958 年，联邦政府解散了他们以及许多其他加州部落。
And when they started up again in the 1980s, he says they were in a rush.
他说，当他们在 20 世纪 80 年代再次开业时，他们很匆忙。
That they didn't really know what they were doing.
他们并不真正知道自己在做什么。
For a long time, our tribe was looked that as kind of a joke as far as membership.
很长一段时间，我们部落的成员资格被视为一个笑话。
Because they were saying oh yeah, the Chukchansi tribe, that's a country club.
因为他们说，哦，是的，Chukchansi 部落，那是一个乡村俱乐部。
You can go up and join.
你可以上去加入。
They just knew that they could get in.
他们只知道他们可以进去。
And so he says they had to make a lot of hard choices.
所以他说他们必须做出很多艰难的选择。
He told me he even voted to disenroll his own cousins-- he had to.
他告诉我，他甚至投票决定取消自己的表兄弟的入学资格——他必须这么做。
They are my cousins, but they didn't have any Chukchansi in them.
他们是我的表兄弟，但他们身上没有楚克坎西。
For years they thought that they were Chukchansi.
多年来，他们一直以为自己是 Chukchansi。
We thought they were Chukchansi.
我们以为他们是 Chukchansi。
When the research was done, we find out that no, they were not even Indians.
当研究完成后，我们发现不，他们甚至不是印第安人。
They were white people.
他们是白人。
The fact is, even tribes that aren't disenrolling people have a hard time figuring out how to decide who's in the tribe.
事实是，即使是不取消成员资格的部落也很难弄清楚如何决定谁在部落中。
What's important-- blood line?
重要的是——血统？
DNA?
脱氧核糖核酸？
Language?
语言？
Land ownership?
土地所有权？
In California, tribes were hunted down and forced to disband.
在加利福尼亚州，部落遭到追捕并被迫解散。
To abandon their land and their language.
放弃他们的土地和语言。
There was lots of intermarriage.
有很多异族通婚。
Records were lost.
记录丢失了。
It's a mess.
真是一团糟。
So the Chukchansi settled on a set of arcane rules based on land ownership and ancestry to determine who could stay in their tribe.
因此，楚克坎西人制定了一套基于土地所有权和血统的神秘规则，以确定谁可以留在他们的部落。
If your family had Chukchansi ancestry but no one got a land grant from the Federal government long ago, you were given a one-year deadline to get in your paperwork.
如果你的家族有楚克钱西血统，但很久以前没有人从联邦政府获得土地拨款，你就会有一年的期限来提交文书。
If you didn't make the deadline or the extension, you were disenrolled.
如果您没有在截止日期或延期之前完成，您将被取消注册。
If you're one of the luckier families that was deeded land, for you there's no deadline.
如果您是拥有土地的幸运家庭之一，那么对您来说没有最后期限。
But your ancestry gets combed over and scrutinized for any hint of non-Chukchansiness.
但你的血统会被仔细梳理和审查，看是否有任何非楚克恰斯血统的迹象。
This is Irene Cordero.
这是艾琳·科尔德罗。
She got a letter recently from the tribe telling her she was disenrolled because her grandfather Jack Roan had in some official documents said he was Chukchansi and in some others said he was Pohonichi.
她最近收到部落的一封信，告诉她她被除名了，因为她的祖父杰克·罗恩在一些官方文件中说他是楚克坎西，而在其他一些文件中说他是波洪尼奇。
Irene says what's the problem?
艾琳说有什么问题吗？
He was both.
他两者都是。
But the tribe kicked her out along with about 70 members of her family, including her mother Ruby.
但部落将她和大约 70 名家人赶出了家门，其中包括她的母亲鲁比。
She's the oldest Chukchansi there is now.
她是现在最年长的 Chukchansi。
Last one passed away last week, I think.
我想最后一个人上周去世了。
We couldn't confirm that Irene's mother was the oldest Chukchansi.
我们无法确认艾琳的母亲是最年长的楚克坎西。
We also couldn't find a Chukchansi that was older.
我们也找不到更老的 Chukchansi。
She'll be 90 in January.
一月份她就90岁了。
David Ferry And she's a native speaker of the language?
大卫·费里 她的母语是这种语言？
Uh huh.
嗯嗯。
David Ferry How many native speakers are there around?
大卫·费里 周围有多少母语人士？
About two.
大约两个。
David Ferry There are actually more like six.
大卫·费里 (David Ferry) 实际上有六个左右。
Disenrollment letters all end with a line saying the tribal council's decisions are final and not appeal-able to any state or federal court.
退出信函都以这样一句话结尾：部落委员会的决定是最终的，不能向任何州或联邦法院上诉。
There's nowhere to go to say but wait, this woman speaks Chukchansi.
无处可说，只能等一下，这个女人说楚克坎西语。
Doesn't that count somehow?
这不也算数吗？
Irene can't take this to the US courts or the Bureau of Indian Affairs and expect any help, because each tribe operates like it's own separate country.
艾琳不能将此事告到美国法院或印第安事务局并指望得到任何帮助，因为每个部落都像自己独立的国家一样运作。
And for the Chukchansi, the tribal council's the final authority.
对于 Chukchansi 来说，部落理事会是最终权力机构。
A few months after the tribe disenrolled Irene's mother Ruby, one of the last remaining native speakers, they gave a million dollars to a local university for the study and revitalization of the Chukchansi language.
部落取消了艾琳的母亲鲁比（最后剩下的母语人士之一）的资格几个月后，他们向当地一所大学捐赠了一百万美元，用于研究和振兴楚克坎西语。
Honorable tribal council, the enrollment committee's prepared to present evidence as to why the respondents are not eligible for membership.
尊敬的部落理事会，招生委员会已准备好提供证据，说明为什么受访者没有资格成为会员。
This is a recording of a disenrollment hearing.
这是退学听证会的录音。
It's actually Bryan Galt's disenrollment hearing.
这实际上是布莱恩·高尔特的退学听证会。
He's the guy who worked in the enrollment office and fought against the new mandate to kick people out.
他是那个在招生办公室工作并反对将人们赶出去的新规定的人。
He ended up defending his own membership in the tribe in 2006, three years after the casino opened.
2006 年，即赌场开业三年后，他最终捍卫了自己在部落中的成员资格。
These hearings are closed to the public, and to the rest of the tribe, too.
这些听证会不向公众开放，也不向部落其他成员开放。
Bryan recorded this secretly and then posted it online.
布莱恩偷偷记录了这一切，然后发布到网上。
What's most striking is how much time is devoted to asserting and reasserting that this whole process is legal, and it's being done according to the tribe's constitution and its ordinances.
最引人注目的是花费了多少时间来断言和重申整个过程是合法的，并且是根据部落的宪法和条例进行的。
Everyone's just following the rules.
大家只是遵守规则而已。
But anyone who is sitting there about to be disenrolled knows that the tribe, as its own sovereign nation of about 900 people, can change those rules at any time.
但任何坐在那里准备被除名的人都知道，这个部落作为拥有约 900 人的主权国家，可以随时改变这些规则。
So that there wouldn't be hearings to disenroll someone like Bryan, who in fact has Chukchansi ancestry.
这样就不会举行听证会来取消像布莱恩这样的人的注册资格，因为他实际上有楚克钱西血统。
Which the tribe acknowledges during the hearing to kick him out.
部落在听证会上承认将他驱逐出去。
For his great great grandmother Mary Galt.
献给他的曾曾祖母玛丽·高尔特。
From the committee I'd like to indicate that Mary Galt is of Chukchansi Indian blood, four quarters.
我想向委员会指出，玛丽·高尔特 (Mary Galt) 拥有楚克坎西印第安人血统，有四分之四的血统。
So not only does he have a full-blooded Chukchansi relative, Bryan's family actually got land from the Federal government more than a century ago.
因此，布莱恩不仅有一个纯正的楚克钱西亲戚，而且他的家人实际上在一个多世纪前就从联邦政府获得了土地。
But the problem is, the council decides it's the wrong kind of land.
但问题是，议会认为这是错误的土地类型。
So in the end, the thing that does him in is the he just didn't get his paperwork in by the deadline.
所以最终，让他陷入困境的是他没有在截止日期前提交文件。
October 22, 1988, through April 3, 1990.
1988年10月22日至1990年4月3日。
Therefore, the enrollment committee requests that James Bryan Galt is not eligible for membership pursuant to the tribe's constitution, and therefore requests that he be disenrolled.
因此，根据部落章程，招生委员会要求詹姆斯·布莱恩·高尔特没有资格成为会员，因此要求取消他的会员资格。
The same day Bryan found out he'd been disenrolled, he lost his job as a beverage manager and web director for the casino.
布莱恩发现自己被开除的同一天，他失去了赌场饮料经理和网络总监的工作。
The casino spokesman told me the firing had nothing to do with his disenrollment.
赌场发言人告诉我，解雇与他的退会无关。
Tribes across the country are watching these mass disenrollments by the Chukchansi and others, and they're just flabbergasted.
全国各地的部落都目睹了楚克坎西人和其他部落大规模的退伍，他们都惊呆了。
Here's David Wilkins.
请听大卫·威尔金斯的报道。
He's a Lumbee Indian, and a professor of American Indian studies at the University of Minnesota.
他是伦比印第安人，也是明尼苏达大学美洲印第安人研究教授。
I get shocked every time I read any Country Today and see that another tribe, usually it's out of California, that has decided that they're going to disenroll another 22 families.
每当我读到《今日国家》杂志，看到另一个部落（通常来自加利福尼亚州）决定取消另外 22 个家庭的注册资格时，我都会感到震惊。
Wilkins is one of the few people who studies disenrollment.
威尔金斯是少数研究退学的人之一。
Disenrollment is occurring now in some 17 states.
目前约有 17 个州正在发生退学现象。
It's occurring in at least 30 tribes in California.
加利福尼亚州至少有 30 个部落存在这种情况。
I can't find a definitive number on how many native individuals have formally been disenrolled.
我无法找到有多少原住民被正式注销的确切数字。
I see figures ranging 4,000 to 6,000.
我看到的数字在 4,000 到 6,000 之间。
But it's difficult to find accurate data because, like I say, tribal governments are not going to be forthcoming with this information.
但很难找到准确的数据，因为正如我所说，部落政府不会提供这些信息。
The Bureau of Indian Affairs refuses to share this information because they say that it's a tribal internal matter.
印第安事务局拒绝分享这一信息，因为他们说这是部落内部事务。
And so as a scholar, as a researcher, I'm frustrated and embittered because I can't find the accurate data to get the word out about what we're doing to ourselves.
因此，作为一名学者、一名研究人员，我感到沮丧和痛苦，因为我找不到准确的数据来说明我们对自己所做的事情。
Wilkins told me other tribes are watching the Chukchansi and others disenroll their members with no consequences and so they're trying it, too.
威尔金斯告诉我，其他部落正在看着楚克坎西人和其他部落取消其成员的注册资格，而不会产生任何后果，因此他们也在尝试这样做。
And he said something that I'd heard from a lot of Indians.
他说了一些我从很多印度人那里听到的话。
We were almost wiped out by other people.
我们几乎被其他人消灭了。
And why are we now whittling ourselves away through disenrollments?
为什么我们现在要通过退学来削弱自己？
And this is what I find most frustrating when I have to say that we really are involved in depopulating ourselves.
当我不得不说我们确实在参与人口减少时，这就是我感到最沮丧的地方。
And at this point we can't blame the Federal government, we can't blame the state that we're in.
在这一点上，我们不能责怪联邦政府，我们不能责怪我们所在的州。
We have to look at ourselves in the mirror and try and explain this to ourselves.
我们必须照照镜子，尝试向自己解释这一点。
With the Chukchansi, a lot of the tribe's members thought disenrollment was OK as long as it was happening to other people.
对于楚克坎西人来说，许多部落成员认为只要这种情况发生在其他人身上，退出部落就可以了。
They never thought it would happen to them, so they didn't stand up against it.
他们从来没有想到这种事会发生在自己身上，所以他们没有站起来反对。
Even the current opponents of disenrollment, the four people elected to the tribal council who never got a chance to take their seat, they used to sit on the council years ago.
即使是目前反对退出的人，被选入部落理事会的四位从未有机会就座的人，他们几年前也曾担任过理事会成员。
And when they did, they presided over hundreds of disenrollments themselves.
当他们这样做时，他们自己主持了数百次退学。
At this point, no one feels safe.
此时此刻，没有人感到安全。
Even Reggie Lewis, the tribal chairman who refused to give up his seat in the election.
就连部落主席雷吉·刘易斯(Reggie Lewis)也拒绝在选举中放弃自己的席位。
Even he can imagine a future council trying to kick him out.
就连他也能想象未来的议会会试图把他赶出去。
The reason will be whatever they want to say, because they will be the ultimate say so.
原因将是他们想说什么，因为他们最终会这么说。
It doesn't matter what is right or what is wrong.
什么是对或错并不重要。
I have the documentation to show that I am from this area.
我有文件证明我来自这个地区。
I have established a special relationship with people that are in the Wyatt and Ramirez family.
我与怀亚特和拉米雷斯家族的人建立了特殊的关系。
He's talking about the two families in the tribe that folks say are staunch supporters of disenrollment-- the Wyatts and the Ramirezes.
他谈论的是部落中的两个家族——怀亚特家族和拉米雷兹家族，人们称这两个家族是退伍军人的坚定支持者。
I cut timber for 40 years and I got Mike Ramirez jobs.
我从事木材砍伐工作 40 年，并找到了迈克·拉米雷斯 (Mike Ramirez) 的工作。
I worked with Mike.
我和迈克一起工作。
His father used to come up and get drunk with my father.
他父亲常常过来和我父亲一起喝醉。
I went over and had beers with his father and my father.
我过去和他父亲还有我父亲一起喝了啤酒。
His sister was married to one of my cousins.
他的姐姐嫁给了我的一位表兄弟。
And they lived right next door to me on my allotment on top of the hill here in Coarsegold.
他们就住在我隔壁，位于科斯戈尔德山顶上我的土地上。
And so I know that I have established close ties with these guys over the years.
所以我知道多年来我已经与这些人建立了密切的联系。
And if they want to say that I'm not a member and they want to kick me out, that's on them.
如果他们想说我不是会员并且想把我踢出去，那是他们的事。
Meanwhile at the casino, things aren't looking too good.
与此同时，赌场里的情况看起来不太好。
Another tribe is planning to build a competing casino just 30 miles down the road.
另一个部落正计划在距路仅 30 英里的地方建造一座与之竞争的赌场。
And Reggie Lewis told me the Chukchansi casino is still $250 million in debt from its construction.
雷吉·刘易斯 (Reggie Lewis) 告诉我，Chukchansi 赌场的建设仍欠下 2.5 亿美元的债务。
About a year and a half ago, it missed a payment on that debt.
大约一年半前，它未能偿还该债务。
He says they might miss another this month.
他说他们可能会错过这个月的另一个。
He told me that if they do miss that payment, members of the tribe might not get their payouts or benefits.
他告诉我，如果他们确实错过了这笔付款，部落成员可能无法获得付款或福利。
The tribe has gone through all this heartache.
部落经历了这一切心痛。
It's on track to disenroll the majority of its members.
它有望取消其大多数成员的注册资格。
If the point was to generate a higher payout for everyone who remained, that might not be panning out.
如果目的是为留下来的每个人带来更高的支出，那可能不会成功。
David Ferry in Oakland.
大卫·费里在奥克兰。
Coming up-- whispering, it's not just for libraries anymore.
即将到来——窃窃私语，它不再只是图书馆的专利了。
That's in a minute.
就在一分钟之内。
From Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续进行时，来自芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台。
This American Life, I'm Ira Glass.
这个美国生活，我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme.
当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一个主题。
Bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
为您带来该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's program, Tribes.
今天的节目是《部落》。
Stories of people who believe they are part of these big groups that may or may not necessarily want them.
故事讲述的是人们相信自己是这些大群体的一部分，这些群体可能想要也可能不一定想要他们。
We've arrived at Act 2 of our program.
我们已经到了计划的第二幕。
Act Two: A Tribe Called Rest Ira Glass Act Two, A Tribe Called Rest.
第二幕：一个叫休息的部落 艾拉·格拉斯 第二幕，一个叫休息的部落。
You know, sometimes it can be easy to believe that you are in a tribe of one-- alone there by yourself.
你知道，有时很容易相信你是在一个部落中——独自一人在那里。
Andrea Seigel tells this story about finding out that she is undeniably not alone.
安德里亚·西格尔 (Andrea Seigel) 讲述了这个故事，讲述了她发现自己无疑并不孤单。
In the fourth grade, I had this one friend Mindy.
四年级时，我有一位朋友明迪。
She was OK to hang out with and all.
她很乐意和她一起出去玩。
But what was really great about her was that she would always want to see whatever stuff I had in my room.
但她真正伟大的是，她总是想看看我房间里的任何东西。
If I sat her down in front of my shell collection, she would delicately go through it one shell at a time.
如果我让她坐在我收藏的贝壳前，她会小心翼翼地一次一颗地浏览贝壳。
She'd murmur to herself what she liked about each shell, and I'd get this tingling throughout my skull.
她会自言自语地说她喜欢每个贝壳的什么，而我的头骨会感到一阵刺痛。
I know how weird that sounds.
我知道这听起来有多奇怪。
But it was like starbursts in my head.
但这就像我脑海中的星爆。
Starbursts that open on the crown and then sparkle down at the nape like this warm, glittering water rushing under your scalp.
星芒在头顶绽放，然后在颈背处闪闪发光，就像温暖、闪闪发光的水流在你的头皮下流淌一样。
I'd seek this feeling out, starting when I was seven.
从我七岁开始，我就开始寻找这种感觉。
I'd go to the library so I could sit in a big, quiet room, and listen to pages being turned.
我会去图书馆，这样我就可以坐在一个又大又安静的房间里，听书页翻动。
There was a boring librarian who everyone in fifth grade hated.
有一个无聊的图书管理员，五年级的每个人都讨厌他。
But I loved her, because when she would read us stories in her soft voice, she'd turn my head into a snow globe.
但我爱她，因为当她用柔和的声音给我们读故事时，她会把我的头变成一个雪球。
I was an anxious kid.
我是一个焦虑的孩子。
I worried about getting homework finished, even back when homework didn't count for anything.
我担心作业能否完成，即使是在作业已经没有任何意义的时候。
But while I was getting this tingling in my head, my anxiety just magically fell away.
但当我的头脑感到刺痛时，我的焦虑就神奇地消失了。
And afterward, I'd actually feel kind of good for a half hour.
之后的半个小时里我实际上感觉很好。
Then I found this public access lady on TV who used to show you how to stencil flowers on a wall.
然后我在电视上找到了一位公共访问女士，她曾经向您展示如何在墙上画花。
She gave me the tingling.
她让我感到刺痛。
I'd also get it watching the late, great Bob Ross teach how to paint mountains on PBS.
我还喜欢观看已故伟大的鲍勃·罗斯 (Bob Ross) 在 PBS 上教如何画山。
So we have black, blue, crimson, little bit of brown.
所以我们有黑色、蓝色、深红色、一点棕色。
Now then, barely touch the canvas.
现在，几乎不碰画布。
So there's Bob Ross.
鲍勃·罗斯就是其中之一。
And I'm eight and sitting on the carpet in the den, watching him delicately mix paint colors in close up.
我八岁了，坐在书房的地毯上，近距离观察他巧妙地混合油漆颜色。
And I am going into a trance.
我正进入恍惚状态。
My jaw kind of goes slack.
我的下巴有点松弛。
My eyes are probably a little glassy.
我的眼睛可能有点呆滞。
And my head is a globe.
我的头是一个地球仪。
Take a little blue and white here-- just mix it together.
这里取一点蓝色和白色——将它们混合在一起。
And once again, flap our little tiny roll of paint.
再次拍动我们的小油漆卷。
So as I grew up, I never told my parents about this.
所以在我长大后，我从来没有告诉过我的父母这件事。
Never talked to anybody.
从来没有和任何人说过话。
I assumed the tingling was an almost pervy way I was miswired.
我认为这种刺痛感是我接线错误的一种近乎变态的方式。
I felt ashamed about it, and all I understood was that I didn't want anyone to know.
我对此感到羞愧，我只知道我不想让任何人知道。
It became even more extreme as an adult.
成年后，这种情况变得更加极端。
As a kid I was only allowed to watch a certain amount of television.
小时候，我只被允许看一定量的电视。
But once I was old enough to own my own TV, I would stay up until 4:00 AM watching home shopping network night after night.
但一旦我长大了，可以拥有自己的电视了，我就会夜以继日地看家庭购物频道直到凌晨 4:00。
Soft-spoken women talked about the jewelry in very detailed, intricate, precious ways, and I loved it.
说话轻声细语的女士们以非常详细、复杂、珍贵的方式谈论珠宝，我很喜欢。
People were confused about why I watched so much home shopping, because I never bought anything.
人们很困惑为什么我看那么多家居购物，因为我从来没有买过任何东西。
But the starbursts worked as well as an adult as they had as a kid.
但星爆对于成年人来说和小时候一样有效。
They calm my anxiety.
他们平息了我的焦虑。
And calming is important, because I'm still an anxious person.
平静很重要，因为我仍然是一个焦虑的人。
In fact, I'm way worse as an adult-- there's a lot more to be anxious about.
事实上，作为一个成年人，我的情况更糟——还有很多事情需要担心。
And I still never told anyone about what was going on inside my head, not even my boyfriend Brent.
我仍然没有告诉任何人我脑子里发生的事情，甚至包括我的男朋友布伦特。
We've been together for years.
我们已经在一起很多年了。
We have a kid together.
我们有一个孩子在一起。
We tell each other everything.
我们告诉彼此一切。
I've told him some really horrible, embarrassing things about myself, but I didn't tell him this.
我告诉过他一些关于我自己的非常可怕、尴尬的事情，但我没有告诉他。
Like, I would never turn to him during dinner and ask, so when the fork just delicately pinged against the knife, did you get tingles throughout your brain, too?
就像，我永远不会在晚餐时转向他询问，所以当叉子轻轻地碰触刀子时，你的大脑是否也感到刺痛？
A few years ago, I started seeking out this stuff on YouTube.
几年前，我开始在 YouTube 上寻找这些内容。
I began with makeup tutorials, because I love to hear the tapping of a brush on a Mac pigment bottle, or the clicking up of an eyeliner pencil.
我从化妆教程开始，因为我喜欢听到刷子敲击 Mac 颜料瓶的声音，或者眼线笔的咔哒声。
That's how I moved on to this woman named Senada, who does something called haul videos, that's H-A-U-L, which are just her talking about what she bought on a shopping trip.
这就是我如何转向这个名叫 Senada 的女士，她制作了一些所谓的“拖运视频”，即 H-A-U-L，这些视频只是她在谈论她在购物之旅中购买的东西。
These kind of videos are actually really popular-- there are tons of them.
这类视频实际上非常受欢迎——有很多。
Hi, everyone.
大家好。
Welcome back to my channel.
欢迎回到我的频道。
Today I wanted to show you what I got from the Versace for H&M.
今天我想向你们展示我从 Versace for H&M 得到的东西。
So as you can see I have--
正如你所看到的，我有——
So I was up to watching two or three hours a day.
所以我每天最多看两三个小时。
And I know this is all starting to sound like porn and someone's obsession with porn.
我知道这一切开始听起来像色情片以及某人对色情片的痴迷。
But it's not porn, even if it does operate a little bit like porn.
但这不是色情片，即使它的运作方式确实有点像色情片。
All the searching for videos, trying to find exactly the right moment or performer, developing very specific tastes and preferences.
所有对视频的搜索，试图找到正确的时刻或表演者，发展非常具体的品味和偏好。
I wanted someone speaking in lightly accented English.
我想要有人用轻微口音的英语说话。
And I wanted them talking to me about jewelry, slowly and deliberately.
我希望他们慢慢地、有意识地跟我谈论珠宝。
And preferably, it's tacky or cheap jewelry that isn't being treated as if it's tacky and cheap.
最好是俗气或廉价的珠宝，不被视为俗气和廉价的。
And just like porn, the effect wears off after a while.
就像色情片一样，效果会在一段时间后消失。
You have to find new videos.
你必须找到新的视频。
Finally one night over the recent holidays, I was suddenly out of videos.
终于在最近假期的一个晚上，我突然没有视频了。
I'd exhausted all my usual haul favorites.
我已经用尽了所有我平时最喜欢的东西。
Despairing, I typed jewelry collection into the search box.
绝望中，我在搜索框中输入珠宝收藏。
Nothing I hadn't seen already.
没有什么是我没见过的。
That was when I had an idea.
就在那时我有了一个想法。
I'd noticed a number of the haulers on YouTube who had accented English had trouble with the spelling of jewelry.
我注意到 YouTube 上的一些英语口音很重的搬运工在拼写“珠宝”时遇到了困难。
I typed in jewelry again, this time with two Ls.
我再次输入“jewelry”，这次是两个“L”。
YouTube returned a video at the top of the search entitled ASMR, Old Jewelry Collection, Show and Tell Whisperer.
YouTube 在搜索顶部返回了一段名为 ASMR、旧珠宝收藏、展示和讲述耳语者的视频。
It was made by YouTuber called--
它是由 YouTuber 制作的——
TheWaterwhispers Ilse.
水语伊尔丝。
Andrea Seigel That was TheWaterwhispers Ilse.
安德里亚·西格尔 那是水语伊尔瑟。
On the screen, a woman smiled and waved and then she began.
屏幕上，一位女士微笑着挥手，然后开始了。
Hey guys, today I'm at my grandpa's house and I'm going to share something personal with you guys.
大家好，今天我在爷爷家，我要和你们分享一些私人的事情。
It's kind of a show and tell video, because I'm going to show you the jewelry-- I always struggle with that word.
这是一个展示和讲述视频，因为我要向你们展示珠宝——我总是很难理解这个词。
I was like, what the hell is this?
我当时想，这到底是什么？
I kept watching.
我一直在看。
I'm going to show you the jewelry of my grandma.
我要给你看我奶奶的珠宝。
She passed away in 2008.
她于 2008 年去世。
And she was actually, together with Bob Ross, one of the first people who gave me ASMR when I was a kid.
事实上，她和鲍勃·罗斯 (Bob Ross) 是我小时候第一批给我提供 ASMR 的人之一。
I was stunned.
我惊呆了。
I mean, I was loving this video.
我的意思是，我很喜欢这个视频。
But also, one, I was shocked by the Bob Ross mention.
但还有一点，我对鲍勃·罗斯的提及感到震惊。
And two, I was worried that something was wrong with this Ilsa, because I thought ASMR sounded like a medical condition.
第二，我担心这个伊尔莎出了什么问题，因为我认为 ASMR 听起来像是一种健康状况。
I instantly assumed that "M" stood for mute, and that Ilsa was some kind of partial mute who could only whisper.
我立即认为“M”代表静音，而伊尔莎是某种半哑巴，只能低声说话。
So I googled ASMR, which led me knowyourmeme.com.
于是我在谷歌上搜索了 ASMR，结果我找到了 Knowyourmeme.com。
And an entry for ASMR that reads, "Autonomous Sensory Meridian Response is a term used to describe a sensory experience characterized by a tingling sensation in the head and scalp which can be triggered by sounds like whispering or brushing, and visual stimulus like painting or drawing." It continued.
ASMR 的一个条目写道：“自主感觉经络反应是一个术语，用于描述一种感官体验，其特征是头部和头皮有刺痛感，这种感觉可以由耳语或刷牙等声音以及绘画或绘画等视觉刺激触发。”事情还在继续。
"On YouTube, the phenomenon inspired the creation of whisperer videos, in which people attempt to trigger the viewer's ASMR by speaking in a soft voice and making various sounds with inanimate objects."
“在 YouTube 上，这种现象激发了低语者视频的创作，在视频中，人们试图通过轻柔的声音说话并用无生命的物体发出各种声音来触发观看者的 ASMR。”
At this point I started saying, oh my God!
这时我开始说，天啊！
Oh my God!
我的天啊！
And Brent on the other couch grew worried and asked what?
另一张沙发上的布伦特开始担心并问什么？
What?
什么？
I clicked on a second link, which took me to an article titled ASMR, the good feeling no one can explain.
我点击了第二个链接，这将我带到了一篇名为 ASMR 的文章，这种美好的感觉无人能解释。
The author writes, from what I understand from conversations with ASMRs, it's a tingle in your brain.
作者写道，据我从与 ASMR 的对话中了解到，这是你大脑中的一种刺痛。
A kind of pleasurable headache that can creep down your spine.
一种令人愉悦的头痛会沿着脊椎蔓延。
I became about as excited as I've ever been, even flapping my hands.
我变得像以前一样兴奋，甚至拍着手。
I clicked on TheWaterwhispers Ilse's website.
我点击了 TheWaterwhispers Ilse 的网站。
At the top it said, for me, ASMR is not just a feeling, it's a lifestyle.
上面写着，对我来说，ASMR 不仅仅是一种感觉，更是一种生活方式。
And that sounds so incredibly lame, but what's hilarious is that it actually is a lifestyle-- it totally is.
这听起来非常蹩脚，但有趣的是它实际上是一种生活方式——完全就是这样。
It's my lifestyle.
这是我的生活方式。
I had no idea that I was into ASMR, but for the past decade I've been dedicating an hour of my day to this.
我不知道自己喜欢 ASMR，但在过去的十年里，我每天都花一个小时来做这件事。
And I wasn't alone.
我并不孤单。
That was incredible, learning that I wasn't alone.
这真是令人难以置信，因为我知道我并不孤单。
In an instant, I went from believing I was miswired to suddenly feeling like I was part of a special group of people with amazing sensitivities.
刹那间，我从相信自己接线错误，突然感觉自己是一群具有惊人敏感性的特殊人群的一员。
Not that science has confirmed that anything special's really going on.
科学并没有证实确实发生了任何特殊的事情。
I haven't been able to find any published studies.
我还没有找到任何已发表的研究。
There is a professor at Dartmouth who's overseeing a couple students.
达特茅斯学院有一位教授正在监督几个学生。
And they're going to put people with ASMR into an MRI tube and watch what happens in their brains while they're having head tingles.
他们会将患有 ASMR 的人放入 MRI 管中，观察他们头部刺痛时大脑中发生的情况。
They hope to have results in the next month.
他们希望在下个月能得到结果。
That night I discovered ASMR, with my official-sounding acronym in hand, I came out and explained my head tingles to Brent.
那天晚上，我发现了 ASMR，手里拿着我的官方缩写，我出来向布伦特解释了我头疼的情况。
His eyes went wide.
他的眼睛睁得大大的。
And when I played him the first few seconds of Ilse's jewelry video, he started laughing and said, you're loving that?
当我给他播放伊尔丝珠宝视频的前几秒时，他开始大笑并说，你喜欢这个吗？
Brent finds the whole thing hilarious.
布伦特觉得整件事很搞笑。
He had always just thought I was strange for watching hours of such boring stuff, but here I had an actual thing.
他一直认为我很奇怪，竟然看了好几个小时这么无聊的东西，但在这里我有一个真实的东西。
But the best part of knowing it's called ASMR, I found tons more videos.
但最棒的是，我发现了更多的视频，这就是 ASMR。
There are ASMR stars like Maria, a.k.a.
有像玛丽亚这样的 ASMR 明星，又名
GentleWhispering, with 77,000 subscribers, who does the most compelling napkin folding video I've ever seen.
GentleWhispering 拥有 77,000 名订阅者，他制作了我见过的最引人注目的折叠餐巾视频。
Then there's up and comers like Equine Cutie with close to 7,000 subscribers.
还有像 Equine Cutie 这样的后起之秀，拥有近 7,000 名订阅者。
She rehabilitates horses and her whisper voice sounds like she's always got a hard candy in her mouth-- except she doesn't.
她帮助马匹康复，她低语的声音听起来就像她嘴里总是含着一块硬糖——但她并没有。
The clicky noises that you hear, honestly, that's just what happens when I whisper.
老实说，你听到的咔哒声就是我低声说话时发生的。
Sorry if you don't really like it.
抱歉，如果您不太喜欢它。
I can't really do anything about it.
我对此无能为力。
Viewers make online requests to their favorite video-making whisperers to do the things that trigger their head tingles.
观众在网上向他们最喜欢的视频制作低语者提出一些让他们头疼的事情。
Everyone's needs are different.
每个人的需求都不同。
It's like an interactive choose your own adventure.
这就像一场互动的选择你自己的冒险。
But the whole story is about marbles clinking.
但整个故事都是关于弹珠叮当作响的。
TheWaterwhispers Ilse keeps a running public list of her fan's requests.
TheWaterwhispers Ilse 保留了一份持续公开的粉丝请求列表。
Some of the pending ones include water bottle not filled completely with beads in it and move it around.
一些待处理的问题包括未完全装满珠子的水瓶，并将其四处移动。
Pick something up with tweezers and tell facts about it.
用镊子夹起一些东西并讲述有关它的事实。
Could you do an unboxing video of a box of bon bons, and cut the bon bons in half to see what flavor they are?
你能制作一盒糖果的开箱视频，并将糖果切成两半，看看它们是什么味道吗？
Role play-- sending a viewer on a mission as a spy.
角色扮演——派观众作为间谍执行任务。
Role play-- be a doctor and diagnose a cold.
角色扮演——扮演一名医生并诊断感冒。
Almost every ASMR YouTuber makes role play videos in which they conduct fake customer service or spa or dermatology sessions.
几乎每个 ASMR YouTuber 都会制作角色扮演视频，在视频中进行虚假的客户服务、水疗或皮肤科课程。
These videos are about someone being almost comically gentle with you.
这些视频讲述的是某人对你近乎滑稽的温柔。
Hi there.
你好呀。
Welcome to our spa.
欢迎来到我们的水疗中心。
My name is Mol and I'm going to be taking care of you today, OK?
我叫摩尔，今天由我来照顾你，好吗？
I know, I know-- these videos sound sexy.
我知道，我知道——这些视频听起来很性感。
They are arguably sexy.
他们可以说是性感的。
Whispering sounds like pillow talk.
耳语听起来就像枕边谈话。
The role plays feel pretty intimate.
角色扮演感觉很亲密。
And often the whisperers will just film their torso, because they're showing you the toiletry basket they prepared for guests or doing origami.
通常，窃窃私语者只会拍摄他们的躯干，因为他们正在向您展示他们为客人准备的洗漱用品篮或正在做折纸。
And framing hands and arms also means a lot of closeups of chests.
手和手臂的构图也意味着大量的胸部特写。
You see the problem.
你看到问题所在了。
Under the videos, which are overwhelmingly done by women, the comments that go on for days are a mixed bag of blissed out ASMR supporters, and guys who see this as softcore softcore porn.
这些视频绝大多数是由女性制作的，在这些视频下，持续数天的评论中既有欣喜若狂的 ASMR 支持者，也有将其视为色情色情内容的男人。
The smutty responses are very frustrating to the whisperers.
这些下流的回应让窃窃私语者感到非常沮丧。
And take my word for it, there's nothing sexual about the feeling itself because it's actually the opposite of arousal.
相信我的话，这种感觉本身与性无关，因为它实际上与性唤起相反。
The starbursts produce a thorough calm that is almost stoner-like.
星芒产生了一种彻底的平静，几乎像吸毒者一样。
It seems worth mentioning, given where I'm speaking to you from right now, that public radio is also a trigger for lots of people.
似乎值得一提的是，鉴于我现在正在与您交谈，公共广播也是很多人的触发因素。
Recently, someone posted to a discussion group on Reddit, quote, "I almost crashed my car when I accidentally fell into an ASMR trance dream in an interview on All Things Considered the other day.
最近，有人在 Reddit 的一个讨论组中发帖称，“前几天接受 All Things Thought 采访时，我不小心陷入了 ASMR 恍惚梦境，差点撞坏了我的车。
I had to change the channel.
我不得不改变频道。
Radiolab will often trigger for me, too.
Radiolab 也经常会触发我。
I actually get tingles from the opening theme."
事实上，我从片头主题中就感到刺痛。”
Someone replied, quote, "Oh, man, I get overly excited when Garrison Keillor comes in.
有人回答说，“哦，伙计，当加里森·凯勒进来时我太兴奋了。
Prairie Home Companion is one of my favorite ASMR experiences."
Prairie Home Companion 是我最喜欢的 ASMR 体验之一。”
All this whisperer obsession has led to a lot of discussion in my home about whether I have a problem.
所有这些对窃窃私语的痴迷在我家里引起了很多关于我是否有问题的讨论。
Do you overall feel that I'm watching too many videos?
您总体上觉得我看视频太多了吗？
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, I think you should mix it up with another hobby that you enjoy.
我的意思是，我认为你应该将它与你喜欢的另一个爱好结合起来。
There have been days where I caught you watching hours of whispering about people doing role plays of their childhood and stuff.
有几天我发现你在看几个小时的窃窃私语，谈论人们在扮演他们童年的角色等等。
And I think, I don't think I want to be in a position where I felt like I needed to watch these for hours.
我想，我不认为我想要处于这样的境地：我觉得我需要看这些几个小时。
Yeah, but you spend a ton of time on internet.
是的，但是你在互联网上花费了大量时间。
Just more time surfing the internet than I do watching videos.
只是上网的时间比看视频的时间还多。
So does that concern you about yourself?
那你担心你自己吗？
Yes, it does.
是的，确实如此。
I don't know why we're making this about me all of a sudden.
我不知道为什么我们突然要这样谈论我。
He thinks his rigorous internet reading is more worthwhile than my ASMR, because he's gathering information that makes him a more interesting person to talk to, like at a party.
他认为他严格的互联网阅读比我的 ASMR 更有价值，因为他收集的信息使他成为一个更有趣的交谈对象，就像在聚会上一样。
But he says my watching is just zombie-ish.
但他说我的观看方式就像僵尸一样。
So it does annoy me that hours and hours a day watching these videos.
所以每天花好几个小时看这些视频确实让我很恼火。
It seems like we could take some of that time and use it doing my stuff, you know?
看来我们可以花一些时间来做我的事情，你知道吗？
But in my defense, we do do his stuff.
但我要辩解，我们确实做了他的事。
The other night I agreed to watch The Twilight Saga: Breaking Dawn, Part 2, Brent's choice.
那天晚上，我同意观看布伦特选择的《暮光之城：破晓第二部》。
And I used it as an opportunity to try to educate Brent about the power of ASMR.
我以此为契机，尝试让布伦特了解 ASMR 的力量。
I pointed out to him when Bella becomes a vampire she suddenly notices every minuscule thing around her, every tiny sound.
我向他指出，当贝拉变成吸血鬼时，她会突然注意到周围的每一个微小的事物，每一个微小的声音。
I said that's the state-- superhuman laser, better than a normal person.
我说这就是状态——超人的激光，比正常人还要好。
I'm never going to get enough of this.
我永远不会受够这个。
We don't get tired.
我们不累。
We don't have to rest or catch our breath or eat.
我们不需要休息、喘口气或吃饭。
Brent doesn't buy this.
布伦特对此并不买账。
He doesn't understand.
他不明白。
Andrea Seigel, she's a novelist with several books, including Like the Red Panda.
安德里亚·西格尔（Andrea Seigel）是一位小说家，出版了多本书，其中包括《像小熊猫》。
Act Three: I Am Curious Yellow Ira Glass Act Three, I Am Curious Yellow.
第三幕：我好奇的黄色 艾拉·格拉斯 第三幕，我好奇的黄色。
I originally heard a version of this next story on the public radio show Snap Judgment.
我最初是在公共广播节目《快速审判》中听到下一个故事的一个版本。
It's about a guy who wants in on a group he definitely was not born into and, at the outset anyway, seems very unlikely to be accepted by.
这是关于一个人想要加入一个他绝对不是出生的团体的故事，而且从一开始，他似乎不太可能被接受。
This story is told by this filmmaker named Debbie Lum.
这个故事是由一位名叫 Debbie Lum 的电影制片人讲述的。
Here she is.
她在这里。
You know, it's hard to grow up in America as an Asian woman and not encounter some Caucasian, usually Caucasian man, who has this sort of unusual attraction for Asian women.
你知道，作为一个在美国长大的亚洲女性，很难不遇到一些白人，通常是白人男性，他们对亚洲女性有这种不同寻常的吸引力。
There's terms for it, like "rice king," or "yellow fever." In my life I've been hit on by so many men who would sort of stare a little bit too long.
有专门的术语来形容它，比如“米王”或“黄热病”。在我的一生中，我被很多男人盯上，他们盯着我看的时间有点太长了。
Then they kind of come up and try to speak to you in the Asian language that you don't speak.
然后他们会过来尝试用你不会说的亚洲语言与你交谈。
I was really tired of being objectified.
我真的厌倦了被物化。
And I thought hey, wouldn't it be a great idea to just turn the tables and point the camera in their direction?
我想，嘿，扭转局面并将相机指向他们的方向不是一个好主意吗？
I decided to make the documentary Seeking Asian Female.
我决定制作纪录片《寻找亚洲女性》。
So I went onto Craigslist, and websites like AsianFriendFinder.com, which they specialize in introducing Western men to Asian women.
所以我访问了 Craigslist 和 AsianFriendFinder.com 等网站，这些网站专门向亚洲女性介绍西方男性。
And I started asking the men who post ads there if they would talk to me for my film.
我开始询问在那里张贴广告的人是否愿意与我谈论我的电影。
I just wanted to understand why.
我只是想明白为什么。
It's their hair.
这是他们的头发。
It's the long, black hair that's really eye-catching.
那一头黑色的长发确实很引人注目。
I think they give more consideration to how the man feels than sometimes themselves.
我认为他们有时比自己更考虑男人的感受。
Yeah, they are kind of subtle and kind of quiet.
是的，他们有点微妙，有点安静。
But Steven, in particular, had this kind of unfiltered quality about him.
但史蒂文尤其具有这种未经过滤的品质。
And he'd say things like, 'You know, I was probably originally looking for a slave when I first started." And I'm quoting him.
他会说，‘你知道，当我刚开始的时候，我可能最初是在寻找一个奴隶。’我引用了他的话。
And he would kind of laugh about that.
他会对此大笑。
The idyllic servant girl who cooks these beautiful meals.
田园诗般的女仆会做这些美味的饭菜。
And you think gee, would it be like that?
你想天哪，会是这样吗？
Of course, as an individual, I felt a little bit disturbed.
当然，作为个人，我感到有些不安。
But as a filmmaker, he was quite fascinating.
但作为一名电影制片人，他非常迷人。
So then I started filming him.
然后我就开始拍摄他。
She looks so Chinese.
她看起来很中国人。
Debbie Lum What does that mean?
黛比·卢姆 这是什么意思？
What does that mean, she looks so Chinese?
她看起来这么中国，这是什么意思？
He really wasn't marriage material for any woman.
他确实不适合任何女人结婚。
He didn't have a lot of money.
他没有很多钱。
He didn't own a house.
他没有房子。
He didn't even own a car.
他甚至没有一辆车。
Yet he had such an extreme undying commitment to finding Asian women, I thought he was just sort of living in a fantasy.
然而，他对寻找亚洲女性有着如此极端而永恒的承诺，我认为他只是生活在幻想中。
He showed me all of these files that he kept-- mail order catalogs.
他向我展示了他保存的所有这些文件——邮购目录。
There were just pictures of hundreds of young Asian women.
只有数百名年轻亚洲女性的照片。
These are different girls that I've written to.
我写信给这些不同的女孩。
They're all just so beautiful.
他们都那么美丽。
I almost felt sorry for Steven.
我几乎为史蒂文感到难过。
Any woman that he became an online pen pal with, he basically asked them to marry him.
任何与他成为网上笔友的女人，他基本上都会向她们求婚。
And these women that he was dating online, they knew that he was this prey that they could take advantage of.
而他在网上约会的这些女人，她们知道他是他们可以利用的猎物。
He would just send them money.
他只会给他们寄钱。
I could see that actually the yellow fever was hurting Steven more than it was hurting the women that he was pursuing.
我可以看出，实际上黄热病对史蒂文的伤害比对他所追求的女性的伤害还要大。
I've been watching him search for many years and I thought that he was never going to find anyone.
我多年来一直看着他寻找，我以为他永远找不到任何人。
And then I got this call from him, and he said would you like to film my wedding?
然后我接到他的电话，他说你愿意拍摄我的婚礼吗？
I found somebody in China who's going to marry me.
我在中国找到了一个愿意嫁给我的人。
I couldn't believe it.
我简直不敢相信。
When he told me he was getting married to Sandy, I was really afraid she would fit that stereotype of being a gold digger, a dragon lady.
当他告诉我他要和桑迪结婚时，我真的很担心她会符合淘金者、龙女的刻板印象。
I had this really bad feeling that this was just going to get really ugly.
我有一种非常糟糕的预感，这会变得非常丑陋。
So the first time I met Sandy was when she walked off the plane at San Francisco International Airport and landed in America for the first time.
所以我第一次见到桑迪是当她在旧金山国际机场走下飞机并第一次降落在美国时。
She seemed really sweet.
她看起来真的很甜蜜。
She seemed really innocent.
她看起来真的很无辜。
I was thinking, how is this possible?
我在想，这怎么可能？
She's 30, he's 60.
她30岁，他60岁。
And then I find out, she barely knew any English and Steven didn't speak any Chinese.
然后我发现，她几乎不懂英语，而史蒂文则不会说中文。
All of a sudden I'm thinking, oh my gosh, this poor young woman.
突然我在想，天啊，这个可怜的年轻女人。
She has no idea what's happening.
她不知道发生了什么事。
And I felt this overwhelming need to protect her.
我感到迫切需要保护她。
The first thing that Sandy did was that she took over the kitchen.
桑迪做的第一件事就是接管了厨房。
And she just started scrubbing and cleaning.
她刚刚开始擦洗和清洁。
He loved it, obviously.
显然，他喜欢它。
He was in heaven.
他在天堂。
She would cook these elaborate Chinese meals for him.
她会为他做这些精致的中餐。
She told Steven, I knew you weren't rich, but I didn't know you were poor.
她告诉史蒂文，我知道你不富有，但我不知道你很穷。
People say your husband have a house?
人们说你丈夫有房子吗？
Have a car?
有车吗？
No, no house and no car, no money.
不，没有房子，没有车，没有钱。
Sandy came from Huangshan in Anhui province.
桑迪来自安徽省黄山市。
Anhui province is one of the poorest regions in China, and she grew up as a tea farmer.
安徽省是中国最贫困的地区之一，她是一名茶农长大的。
Then she migrated to Shenzhen, China.
然后她移居到中国深圳。
She found her way out of the factory floor and eventually became the executive secretary at a fashion company.
她走出了工厂车间，最终成为一家时装公司的执行秘书。
[SPEAKING CHINESE] Translator Everybody says it doesn't make sense.
[说中文] 翻译 大家都说这没有道理。
You should try to find a younger guy.
你应该尝试找一个年轻的家伙。
And why would you choose him?
而你为什么会选择他呢？
I felt like we had so many similar interests and hobbies.
我觉得我们有很多相似的兴趣和爱好。
And he's just so special, he's really not like anyone else.
他是如此特别，他真的不像其他人。
In China, it's not like I could ever marry someone rich.
在中国，我不可能嫁给有钱人。
I've never wanted to marry for money.
我从来没想过为了钱而结婚。
I think you marry the same kind of person that you are.
我认为你会嫁给和你一样的人。
It's better to be realistic, right?
现实一点比较好，对吧？
They would pull out their iPhones and use Google Translator and type in sentences to each other.
他们会拿出 iPhone，使用谷歌翻译器互相输入句子。
He would be telling jokes, and she would be laughing at them.
他会讲笑话，而她会嘲笑他们。
There was this chemistry that I hadn't really even factored into the equation.
我什至没有真正将这种化学因素纳入方程式中。
Sometimes I'll come home and she'll be hiding behind the refrigerator.
有时我回到家，她会躲在冰箱后面。
Or one time she was hiding in the closet and she lets me look around.
或者有一次她躲在壁橱里，让我四处看看。
She'll be in there smiling, and it's funny.
她会在那里微笑，这很有趣。
It's funny.
很有趣。
The day is full of little things like that.
这一天充满了诸如此类的小事。
That's easy to share.
这很容易分享。
And then I got a call.
然后我接到一个电话。
And it was Steven saying you have to help me, we've had a major misunderstanding.
史蒂文说你必须帮助我，我们之间有一个重大误会。
And so I show up at their apartment.
于是我出现在他们的公寓。
Sandy had found all these pictures that Steven had collected of all the Asian women from before.
桑迪找到了史蒂文以前收集的所有亚洲女性的照片。
And she was really upset about the presents he had sent to his ex-girlfriends in China and she just went ballistic.
她对他送给中国前女友的礼物感到非常不安，她非常生气。
[SPEAKING CHINESE] Translator In China, if you break up with someone you can't still be friends.
[说中文] 翻译 在中国，如果你和某人分手了，你就不能再做朋友了。
She asked him to buy all these things for her.
她让他给她买所有这些东西。
Chinese people can't casually accept precious gifts from other people.
中国人不能轻易接受别人送来的贵重礼物。
It's stupid.
这很愚蠢。
Oh my gosh, these are genuine feelings that she has for him.
天哪，这是她对他的真挚感情。
Sandy was really hurt.
桑迪真的很受伤。
So I'm hearing them fight, and they're not communicating.
所以我听到他们打架，但他们没有交流。
It was really hard to watch them struggle, so I began translating.
看着他们挣扎真的很难受，所以我开始翻译。
[SPEAKING CHINESE].
[说中文]。
Debbie Lum OK, Steven, why is it that you still have pictures of Molly?
Debbie Lum 好的，Steven，为什么你还保留着 Molly 的照片？
It took a while to fade away, but I'm way over it.
花了一段时间才消失，但我已经克服了。
[SPEAKING CHINESE] Debbie Lum She said that's what you say, but how do I know that your heart feels that way for real?
[说中文] Debbie Lum 她说你是这么说的，但我怎么知道你心里是不是真的这么想呢？
At the end of the scene, I realized wait a minute, they've kind of made up.
场景结束时，我意识到等一下，他们已经和好了。
And how much of that was because I was translating?
其中有多少是因为我在翻译？
This is not what you're supposed to do as a documentary filmmaker.
这不是你作为一名纪录片制片人应该做的事情。
It was supposed to be about them.
本来应该是关于他们的。
But I was becoming a character in the story.
但我正在成为故事中的一个角色。
When Sandy arrived in America, she came in on the K-1 Fiance Visa.
当桑迪抵达美国时，她持 K-1 未婚夫签证入境。
And the way that works is you have 90 days to decide whether or not the person that you're engaged to is the person that you really want to marry.
有效的方法是，您有 90 天的时间来决定与您订婚的人是否是您真正想结婚的人。
And if you don't marry that person, you have to go home.
如果你不嫁给那个人，你就必须回家。
Eventually they asked me to translate more and more.
最终他们要求我翻译越来越多的内容。
As I was translating them, I really started not just translating, but realized that I was mediating and kind of becoming their marriage counselor.
当我翻译它们时，我真的开始不仅仅是翻译，而是意识到我正在调解并成为他们的婚姻顾问。
Help me.
帮助我。
When she gets mad, she doesn't communicate.
当她生气时，她不会沟通。
So I just have to guess what she's mad about.
所以我只能猜测她在生气什么。
It got pretty crazy.
它变得非常疯狂。
I'd get these late night phone calls from them.
我会在深夜接到他们打来的电话。
Any time they had a conflict they would call me.
每当他们发生冲突时，他们都会打电话给我。
As they really got to know each other, the reality hit.
当他们真正了解彼此时，现实却打击了他们。
Her real-life personality came out, and she was no longer this figment of his imagination, or this ideal woman.
她真实的性格显露出来，她不再是他想象中的虚构人物，不再是这个理想中的女人。
She demanded that he step up to the plate and clean the house as well.
她要求他也行动起来并打扫房子。
[SPEAKING CHINESE] Steven What?
[说中文] 史蒂文 什么？
Speak in English.
用英语说话。
We got to do that first before everything else?
我们必须先做这件事然后再做其他事情吗？
This is how I'm supposed to deal with it?
这就是我应该如何处理的事情吗？
You dump it in here?
你把它扔在这里吗？
That's how you dumped it.
你就是这样把它扔掉的。
That's how you give it to me.
这就是你给我的方式。
This is my life and the man I chose.
这就是我的生活，也是我选择的男人。
It's too late to go home now, I'll lose face.
现在回家太晚了，我会丢脸的。
If I go home, I won't-- it's impossible.
如果我回家，我就不会——这是不可能的。
You see, in China everyone will talk behind my back.
你看，在中国每个人都会在背后议论我。
I won't be able to lift my head in public.
我在公共场合抬不起头来。
So now I can only move forward, I can't look back.
所以现在我只能向前走，不能回头。
It's really clear what you're getting out of this relationship, I think.
我想，你从这段关系中得到什么真的很清楚。
What do you think she gets out of it?
你认为她从中得到了什么？
A chance at a new life, a new world?
新生活、新世界的机会？
Oh, god.
哦，上帝。
So right when Sandy was really having some doubts about getting married, Steven turned to me and he just came out and thanked me.
所以当桑迪真的对结婚有些犹豫时，史蒂文转向我，他只是出来感谢我。
And he said, if it hadn't been for you, Sandy would've gone back to China by now.
他说，如果没有你，桑迪现在就回中国了。
She told him that.
她告诉他。
I absolutely questioned whether I had done the right thing at that moment.
我绝对怀疑我当时是否做了正确的事情。
Would she not perhaps be better off if she'd stayed in China or just went home?
如果她留在中国或者干脆回国，也许不是会过得更好吗？
Shenzhen is this thriving metropolis.
深圳是一座欣欣向荣的大都市。
And she'd be living in her own culture where she could have a home, have friends, and have her life.
她会生活在自己的文化中，在那里她可以有一个家，有朋友，有自己的生活。
Marriage should not be entered into lightly, but with certainty, mutual respect, and a sense of reverence that does not preclude humor or--
婚姻不应轻率地缔结，而应以确定性、相互尊重和尊重感为基础，但不排除幽默或——
Here they are, about to get married, and there's all these unanswered questions.
他们即将结婚，但所有这些问题都没有答案。
With this ring, I thee wed and offer as a symbol of our true love.
我用这枚戒指与你结婚，并献上这枚戒指作为我们真爱的象征。
Did I do the right thing?
我做对了吗？
Many times I wanted to just tell her it doesn't matter.
很多次我都想告诉她没关系。
Just to pick her up and take her back to China.
只是为了接她，带她回中国。
But that that's also making an assumption that I know the right thing for her.
但这也假设我知道适合她的事情。
It's so easy to go to this place where Sandy was a victim, but that doesn't give her enough credit.
去桑迪是受害者的地方很容易，但这并没有给她足够的信任。
She was somebody who knew how to take care of herself, and knew exactly what was the right thing for her.
她是一个知道如何照顾自己的人，并且清楚地知道什么对她来说是正确的。
And after the wedding, I was relieved to see that Steven really progressed.
婚礼结束后，我欣慰地看到史蒂文真的取得了进步。
I watched him clean up his act slowly.
我看着他慢慢收拾自己的行为。
He worked really hard to try to win the heart of this young Chinese woman.
他非常努力地试图赢得这位年轻的中国女性的心。
He actually did the housework and cleaned the kitchen.
他实际上做家务并打扫厨房。
At first I went into this search thinking the traditional stereotype of getting someone to stay home, do the housework, clean, take care of me, that kind of thing.
起初，我进入这个搜索的想法是传统的刻板印象，即让某人呆在家里，做家务，打扫卫生，照顾我，诸如此类的事情。
But that's not very growth oriented.
但这并不是以增长为导向的。
Oh!
哦！
Oh my gosh!
天哪！
Everything looks good, clean.
一切看起来都很好，很干净。
Oh!
哦！
Thank you.
谢谢你。
The crazy thing is, I'm not bothered by Steven's yellow fever in the same way I was before.
疯狂的是，我不再像以前那样被史蒂文的黄热病困扰了。
You know, originally he was just this guy I wanted to expose.
要知道，本来他就是我要揭发的这个人。
I never imagined that I would see a couple like Steven and Sandy, and actually be rooting for them to make it.
我从未想过我会看到像史蒂文和桑迪这样的情侣，并真正支持他们成功。
Debbie Lum, talking about her film Seeking Asian Female which is available online.
黛比·林 (Debbie Lum) 谈论她的电影《寻找亚洲女性》，该电影可在线观看。
Just Google it, a companion video series about dating and race.
只需谷歌一下即可，这是一个关于约会和种族的配套视频系列。
And Yellow Fever will launch in a week at theyrealsobeautiful.com.
《黄热病》将于一周后在 theyrealsobeautiful.com 上推出。
You can hear Snap Judgment, where that story came from, on many public radio stations.
您可以在许多公共广播电台上听到该故事的来源《Snap Judgement》。
Or get their podcast for free at snapjudgment.org.
或者在 snapjudgment.org 免费获取他们的播客。
Stephanie Foo produced this story for them.
斯蒂芬妮·符（Stephanie Foo）为他们制作了这个故事。
[MUSIC - "YOU GOT WHAT YOU WANTED" BY IKE & TINA TURNER]
[音乐 - IKE 和 TINA Turner 的《YOU GOT WHAT YOU想要》]
Our program was produced today by Miki Meek and myself with Alex Blumberg, Ben Calhoun, Sarah Koenig, Jonathan Menjivar, Lisa Pollak, Brian Reed, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
今天我们的节目由 Miki Meek 和我本人以及 Alex Blumberg、Ben Calhoun、Sarah Koenig、Jonathan Menjivar、Lisa Pollak、Brian Reed、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 共同制作。
Our senior producer's Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人朱莉·斯奈德。
Production help from Phia Bennin Seth Lind is our operations director, Emily Condon's our production manager.
菲亚·本宁 (Phia Bennin) 提供生产帮助 Seth Lind 是我们的运营总监，艾米丽·康登 (Emily Condon) 是我们的生产经理。
Elise Bergerson's our administrative assistant.
埃莉斯·伯格森是我们的行政助理。
Music help today from Damien Graef from Rob Geddis.
今天来自 Rob Geddis 的 Damien Graef 的音乐帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website ThisAmericanLife.org.
[致谢] 我们的网站 ThisAmericanLife.org。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
WBEZ management oversight for our program by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia.
我们的老板 Torey Malatia 先生对我们的项目进行 WBEZ 管理监督。
He stopped by the office to show me his brand new dance moves.
他在办公室停下来向我展示他全新的舞蹈动作。
I said hit it, and I went down and hit the floor.
我说打吧，然后我就倒在地板上。
Well then, I couldn't get up because, of course, I've got a bad hip and bad knees.
那么，我无法站起来，当然，因为我的臀部和膝盖都不好。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。