485: Surrogates - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #485 | February 21, 2014 485: Surrogates Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 485 集 | 2014 年 2 月 21 日 485：代理 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Reggie Richardson and his identical twin brother Ronnie went to grade school and high school together.
序言 艾拉·格拉斯 雷吉·理查森和他的同卵双胞胎兄弟罗尼一起上小学和高中。
They were roommates in college and track stars together.
他们是大学时的室友，也是田径明星。
They trained as educators together, taught fourth grade classes side by side, were assistant principals together, and finally, this fall, achieved something they'd dreamed of together since they were teenagers-- they became co-principals of a school, Claremont Middle School in Oakland, California.
他们一起接受教育工作者培训，并肩教授四年级课程，一起担任校长助理，最后，今年秋天，他们实现了青少年时期共同梦想的事情——成为加利福尼亚州奥克兰克莱蒙特中学的联合校长。
And what's that like?
那是什么样子的？
Well, one recent morning, I was talking to Reggie in his office when Ms. Champion, the administrative assistant, called on the walkie-talkie.
最近的一天早上，我正在雷吉的办公室里与他交谈，这时行政助理钱皮恩女士用对讲机打来电话。
This is Mr. Richardson.
这是理查森先生。
Ms. Champion I have Orion's mom on the phone, and she says it's urgent.
钱皮恩女士 我接到猎户座妈妈的电话，她说事情很紧急。
Is she on the line now?
她现在在线吗？
Ms. Champion Yes.
冠军女士 是的。
Do you want to transfer me?
你想转移我吗？
Ms. Champion OK, which Mr. Richardson is this?
Champion 女士 好的，请问这是哪位 Richardson 先生？
Reggie Richardson.
雷吉·理查德森。
Ms. Champion OK, thanks.
冠军女士 好的，谢谢。
Copy that.
复制那个。
Ira Glass Turns out to be an incredibly handy thing, having your identical twin as your co-principal.
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 原来是一件非常方便的事情，让你的同卵双胞胎作为你的副校长。
They handle things the same.
他们处理事情的方式是一样的。
They know how each other thinks.
他们知道彼此的想法。
They look the same.
他们看起来一样。
When kids arrive in the morning or leave in the afternoon, they both wander around the grounds.
当孩子们早上到达或下午离开时，他们都会在庭院里闲逛。
And there's this feeling of omnipresence.
还有一种无所不在的感觉。
Here's Reggie's brother, Ronnie.
这是雷吉的弟弟罗尼。
What's powerful about having two of us is that even the teachers and the students are like, wow, he's everywhere.
我们两个人的强大之处在于，即使是老师和学生也会说，哇，他无处不在。
I turn this corner, he's there.
我转过这个拐角，他就在那里。
I turn this corner, he's there.
我转过这个拐角，他就在那里。
When I first came, I didn't know they were twins, and I needed help finding my classes.
当我第一次来的时候，我不知道他们是双胞胎，我需要帮助找到我的课程。
So I seen one by the stairs, and then I walked down the hallway and I seen another one.
所以我在楼梯上看到了一个，然后我沿着走廊走，又看到了另一个。
Like, they were at too places at the same time, and I thought it was one person.
就像，他们同时出现在太多地方，我以为是一个人。
And I was like, what?
我当时想，什么？
To afford two principals, the school has no assistant principal.
为了负担两名校长的费用，学校没有副校长。
And mostly, the two brothers just pass things off, perfect surrogates for each other.
大多数情况下，两兄弟只是把东西传递出去，成为彼此的完美代理人。
Ever wish you had a second you to help you with your kids or your job at work?
您是否曾经希望有第二个自己来帮助您照顾孩子或工作？
That is every day for these guys.
这就是这些家伙的每一天。
Something comes up for Ronnie and he can't meet with a parent, he just tells Reggie to do it.
罗尼出了点事，无法见家长，他只是告诉雷吉去见。
The morning I was there, a group of parents and kids who'd be coming to Claremont next year was getting a tour.
我在那里的那天早上，一群明年要来克莱蒙特的父母和孩子正在参观。
Ronnie was the one who was supposed to lead it.
罗尼是应该领导它的人。
Which he did, at first.
一开始他就是这么做的。
Good morning.
早上好。
Ira Glass His brother Reggie stopped into the library where the tour was starting, said a few words.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 他的兄弟雷吉（Reggie）在巡演开始的图书馆停下来说了几句话。
The plan was that his participation was going to be brief.
计划中他的参与时间将会很短。
But then when the bell rang, Ronnie, the one who's supposed to be leading the tour, stepped into the hallway to monitor the change of classes, which these guys do all day long.
但当铃声响起时，本应带领参观的罗尼走进走廊，监视班级的变化，这些人整天都在这样做。
James?
詹姆斯？
James.
詹姆斯.
James.
詹姆斯.
Can you please take your beanie off, son?
儿子，你能把你的帽子摘下来吗？
Thank you.
谢谢。
And he stayed out there.
他就呆在那里。
Back in the library, stuck with the tour group now, his brother Reggie vamped.
回到图书馆，他的弟弟雷吉跟旅行团在一起，精神抖擞。
Um, however in the interim, I-- Mr. Richardson stepped out.
嗯，但在此期间，我——理查森先生走了出来。
You know, we get real busy, so he should be back.
你知道，我们真的很忙，所以他应该回来。
But I'm going to split you in groups.
但我要把你们分成几组。
If we have to do a large group, we will do so.
如果我们必须做一个大团体，我们就会这样做。
But he should be back momentarily.
但他应该很快就会回来。
When Ronnie returned, the two continued the tour together for a while, and then Reggie ditched out, leaving Ronnie.
当罗尼回来后，两人一起继续巡演了一段时间，然后雷吉退出，留下了罗尼。
This swapping tasks back and forth happens all day long between them.
这种来回交换任务的情况整天都在他们之间发生。
And since they arrived at Claremont at the beginning of this school year, everybody-- kids, parents, teachers-- all say they have made a huge difference.
自从他们在本学年开始来到克莱蒙特以来，每个人——孩子、家长、老师——都说他们做出了巨大的改变。
Claremont went through several principals last year, and it was chaotic.
克莱蒙特大学去年更换了几位校长，情况很混乱。
Kids were roaming the halls when they were supposed to be in class.
孩子们本该上课的时候却在大厅里闲逛。
It was such a mess, teachers say, that it drove the kids' standardized test scores down.
老师们说，这太混乱了，导致孩子们的标准化考试成绩下降。
Now it's orderly, thanks to the Richardsons.
现在一切都井然有序了，多亏了理查森一家。
And among the students who they've taken a special interest in are a pair of twins from the seventh grade, Faith and Hope, who've been to the principal's office many, many times since Hope transferred into the school this fall.
他们特别感兴趣的学生中有一对来自七年级的双胞胎，费思和霍普，自从霍普今年秋天转学到学校以来，他们已经去过校长办公室很多很多次了。
Faith had attended here last year.
菲斯去年曾在这里参加过。
Here is how Hope sees things.
这就是希望的看法。
She's new in school, and the person she knows best doesn't want her nearby.
她是新来的学校，她最熟悉的人不希望她在附近。
Well, we use to share classes, but she got hers switched, so we don't share no classes now.
嗯，我们以前共用课程，但她换了课程，所以我们现在不共用课程了。
She got hers switched so you guys wouldn't be in all your classes together?
她换了位置，所以你们就不会一起上所有的课了？
She doesn't like to, like, really hang out with me.
她不喜欢和我一起出去玩。
But yeah, she got them switched to her best friend's classes.
但是，是的，她让他们转到了她最好朋友的班级。
What'd you think of that?
你对此有何看法？
Hope Uh, I'm used to it.
希望呃，我已经习惯了。
They got along when they were little, she says, but now they're teenagers, and it's different.
她说，他们小时候相处得很好，但现在他们都是青少年了，情况就不一样了。
So how did she start to act?
那么她是如何开始行动的呢？
Hope Like more-- meaner.
希望喜欢更多——更卑鄙。
And, like, teenager-y, selfish.
而且，就像青少年一样，自私。
That's why-- OK, we get along at home, but not at school.
这就是为什么——好吧，我们在家里相处得很好，但在学校却不好。
She likes to keep her space.
她喜欢保留自己的空间。
Treated like that, a person can act up, try to get the other person's attention.
受到这样的对待，一个人可能会表现得很好，试图引起对方的注意。
Which Hope does.
希望做到了。
It's not so effective.
它不是那么有效。
I'm always mad at her.
我总是生她的气。
Ira Glass Here's Faith, her sister.
艾拉·格拉斯 这是她的妹妹费丝。
She steal my clothes.
她偷了我的衣服。
She's like an instigator.
她就像一个煽动者。
When somebody's about to fight, she runs back and forth saying stuff.
当有人要打架时，她会跑来跑去说一些话。
And she takes jokes too far.
她开的玩笑开得太过分了。
And then she acts the fool everywhere she goes.
然后她无论走到哪里都表现得像个傻瓜。
Like she always bring attention to herself.
就像她总是让别人关注自己一样。
I don't like that much attention, so.
我不喜欢那么多的关注，所以。
And everybody thinks of us as one.
每个人都认为我们是一体的。
Like everything she do, they say, why y'all do that?
就像她所做的一切一样，他们说，你们为什么这么做？
They even think that it's me.
他们甚至认为是我。
And she's evil.
而且她很邪恶。
Like I said, she has anger issues.
就像我说的，她有愤怒的问题。
She's the meaner one.
她是最卑鄙的那个。
Everybody says it.
每个人都这么说。
The troubles between these 13-year-old twins definitely got the attention of the 36-year-old twins over in the principal's office.
这对13岁双胞胎之间的麻烦肯定引起了校长办公室里36岁双胞胎的注意。
Because we kind of get offended.
因为我们有点被冒犯了。
We got a little offended when they were-- we took it personal.
当他们这样做时，我们有点生气——我们认为这是针对个人的。
It's something about twins that really, because we are twins, when we see siblings having issues and disrespecting each other in public, we take it a little bit more personal.
这确实是关于双胞胎的事情，因为我们是双胞胎，当我们看到兄弟姐妹有问题并且在公共场合互相不尊重时，我们会认为这是针对个人的。
Reggie says that for a while, the twin girls were in their office constantly with both brothers.
雷吉说，有一段时间，这对双胞胎女孩经常和两兄弟一起呆在办公室里。
And we were really talking to them about it.
我们确实在和他们谈论这件事。
And Ronnie started it.
罗尼开始了它。
Twin code.
双码。
How to respect each other as sisters.
怎样才能像姐妹一样互相尊重呢？
Because when we hear, like, shut up.
因为当我们听到时，就像，闭嘴。
No, you shut up.
不，你闭嘴。
No, you're ugly.
不，你很丑。
No, you're ugly.
不，你很丑。
We're like, whoa, no. That's totally against twin code.
我们就像，哇，不。这完全违背了双胞胎代码。
Let's talk about this.
我们来谈谈这个吧。
Calm down, girls.
冷静点，女孩们。
He said that we have a gift.
他说我们有一份礼物。
Ira Glass This is Faith.
艾拉·格拉斯 这就是信仰。
Because not everybody gets to be a twin.
因为不是每个人都能成为双胞胎。
And that we're breaking twin code by doing this stuff to each other.
我们通过互相做这些事情来破坏孪生代码。
Wait, what's the twin code?
等等，双胞胎代码是什么？
Faith I don't know.
信仰我不知道。
And then we talked about, you come from greatness.
然后我们谈到，你来自伟大。
You're queens and kings.
你们是女王和国王。
He would just call us kings and queens, something, something.
他只会称我们为国王和王后之类的。
I wasn't really listening.
我并没有真正在听。
I appreciate that they trying to help.
我很感激他们试图提供帮助。
But I don't like her.
但我不喜欢她。
So they said that we only have each other and all that, so we should stick together.
所以他们说我们只有彼此，所以我们应该团结在一起。
Like, I try to do that with my sister, but she doesn't really like that.
就像，我尝试对我妹妹这样做，但她不太喜欢那样。
Like, I always try to give her hugs and say hi and stuff, but she doesn't like that.
就像，我总是试着拥抱她，打个招呼之类的，但她不喜欢那样。
She just doesn't want to be my friend, so I just let it slide.
她只是不想和我做朋友，所以我就顺其自然了。
That was Hope.
那就是希望。
Here's Faith.
这里是信仰。
Faith No, I just think that it's not that easy, 'cause I gotta go to school with her and I gotta go home with her.
信仰 不，我只是觉得这没那么容易，因为我必须和她一起去学校，我必须和她一起回家。
I gotta walk home with her.
我得和她一起走回家。
I gotta see her when I wake up, when I go to sleep.
当我醒来时，当我睡觉时，我必须见到她。
And I don't like her.
而且我不喜欢她。
Oh, that's some improvement.
哦，那是一些进步。
Ira Glass Ronnie says that a few months ago, they weren't saying "I don't like her." They were saying, "I hate her." He says that whatever they told me in the interviews, whatever they might think, they're doing better.
艾拉·格拉斯·罗尼说，几个月前，他们并没有说“我不喜欢她”。他们说：“我恨她。”他说，无论他们在采访中告诉我什么，无论他们怎么想，他们都做得更好。
Because they're not in the office with us every day.
因为他们不是每天和我们一起在办公室。
They're in class.
他们正在上课。
They're making strides in their academics.
他们在学术上取得了长足的进步。
And this is coming from their teachers, saying, wow.
这是他们的老师说的，哇。
In November, the girls even wrote them a letter thanking them for all the time and help they'd given.
十一月，女孩们甚至给她们写了一封信，感谢她们一直以来的付出和帮助。
And for better or worse, the brothers have come to see themselves in these girls.
无论好坏，兄弟俩都在这些女孩身上看到了自己的影子。
They really want them to be closer someday.
他们真的希望有一天他们能更亲近。
And the only question in our interview where they disagreed was-- does it matter if these two girls ever get close?
在我们的采访中，他们唯一不同意的问题是——这两个女孩走得近有关系吗？
First, here's Ronnie.
首先，这是罗尼。
Personally, I think it doesn't matter, as long as they're happy in their individual lives.
就我个人而言，我认为这并不重要，只要他们个人生活幸福即可。
Do you think it matters?
你认为这重要吗？
Reggie Richardson I think it matters that they remain-- I think they should stay close.
雷吉·理查森（Reggie Richardson）我认为他们留下来很重要——我认为他们应该保持密切关系。
I think that-- he's breaking twin code right now.
我认为——他现在正在打破孪生密码。
[LAUGHTER] Reggie Richardson No, but I respectfully disagree.
[笑声] 雷吉·理查德森 不，但我恭敬地不同意。
Why does it's matter?
为什么这很重要？
Reggie Richardson They are each other's pulse.
雷吉·理查德森 他们是彼此的脉搏。
And whether they believe it or not yet, I see that as they get older, they're really going to need each other.
无论他们是否相信，我发现随着年龄的增长，他们真的会需要彼此。
Of course, he is the one who sees a twin in his life as his pulse.
当然，他是那个将生命中的双胞胎视为脉搏的人。
And today on our show, we have people who feel this very aggressive kind of empathy, seeing their lives in somebody else's life, seeing somebody else as their surrogate.
今天在我们的节目中，我们的人们感受到了这种非常激进的同理心，在别人的生活中看到自己的生活，将别人视为自己的代理人。
One of our stories today is about a man who did some terrible, terrible things, who, apparently, lots of people related to.
我们今天的故事之一是关于一个男人做了一些非常非常可怕的事情，显然，很多人都与他有关。
The other story involves a scandal that shook Washington for decades, a scandal involving sex, power, cabinet positions, and-- here's a word I do not get to say very often-- petticoats.
另一个故事涉及一桩震惊华盛顿数十年的丑闻，涉及性、权力、内阁职位，以及——这是一个我不常说的词——衬裙。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.
这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, "Petticoats In a Twist." So this is not the kind of Washington sex scandal that we're all used to.
第一幕，“扭曲的衬裙”。所以这不是我们所习惯的那种华盛顿性丑闻。
There's no presidential candidate, president, or congressman caught doing whatever.
没有任何总统候选人、总统或国会议员被发现做过任何事情。
There's no mopey press conference with his wife by his side, blah, blah, blah.
没有什么闷闷不乐的新闻发布会，他的妻子就在他身边，等等，等等。
The sex scandal that we're going to talk about now was one of the first sex scandals of the American presidency.
我们现在要讨论的性丑闻是美国总统任期内最早的性丑闻之一。
It was during Andrew Jackson's time, in the 1820s and '30s.
那是在安德鲁·杰克逊 (Andrew Jackson) 时代，即 1820 年代和 30 年代。
And it affected the course of the entire country in surprisingly large ways.
它对整个国家的进程产生了惊人的巨大影响。
Sarah Koenig tells what happened during what's become known as the Petticoat Affair.
莎拉·科尼格讲述了后来被称为“衬裙事件”期间发生的事情。
It all began with a pretty young innkeeper's daughter named Margaret O'Neale, or Peggy, as she was called.
这一切都始于一位年轻漂亮的旅店老板的女儿，名叫玛格丽特·奥尼尔（Margaret O'Neale），或者人们称呼她为佩吉（Peggy）。
According to accounts written at the time, Peggy O'Neale was a fox.
根据当时的记载，佩吉·奥尼尔是一只狐狸。
Cherry-lipped, perfectly proportioned, white skin, thick, dark, curly hair, a firm, round, chin.
樱桃唇，比例完美，皮肤白皙，头发浓密、深色、卷曲，下巴坚挺、圆润。
She also had very blue eyes.
她还有一双非常蓝的眼睛。
That comes from other accounts.
那来自其他帐户。
That's Nancy Tomes, who teaches American history at Stony Brook University in New York.
那是南希·汤姆斯，在纽约石溪大学教授美国历史。
She had an education.
她受过教育。
She spoke French.
她说法语。
She danced like an angel.
她跳舞得像个天使。
She played the piano.
她弹钢琴。
She performed in front of First Lady Dolley Madison, who was smitten with her.
她在第一夫人多莉·麦迪逊面前表演，第一夫人多莉·麦迪逊被她迷住了。
So clearly, she was not a yahoo.
很明显，她不是雅虎。
But she was crossing class lines, and that made her suspect among the ladies of Washington.
但她跨越了阶级界限，这让华盛顿的女士们对她产生了怀疑。
And then this unfortunate business with Justin Timberlake did not help her.
然后，与贾斯汀·汀布莱克的不幸事件并没有帮助她。
Surely his name isn't Justin Timberlake.
他的名字肯定不是贾斯汀·汀布莱克。
No. [LAUGHTER] Did I just say that?
不。[笑声]我刚刚说过吗？
Oh, that's awful.
哦，那太糟糕了。
Oh.
哦。
His name was John Timberlake, not Justin.
他的名字叫约翰·汀布莱克，而不是贾斯汀。
Sorry.
对不起。
Oh, ho, ho, I have an eye trained for opportunities like this.
哦，嗬，嗬，我的眼睛训练有素，善于发现这样的机会。
A lonely sailor, a pretty little tavern girl, moonlit night?
孤独的水手，漂亮的小酒馆女孩，月夜？
That's the first time John Timberlake lays eyes on Peggy at her father's boarding house in Washington, or at least how Hollywood imagined it in the 1936 movie called The Gorgeous Hussy .
这是约翰·汀布莱克 (John Timberlake) 第一次在佩吉 (Peggy) 位于华盛顿的父亲的寄宿处见到她，或者至少是好莱坞在 1936 年的电影《华丽的女人》 (The Gorgeous Hussy) 中所想象的那样。
Will you drink?
你会喝酒吗？
Drinking Companion Thank you.
饮酒伴侣 谢谢。
To Miss O'Neale, sir, in whom I am more interested than ever.
致奥尼尔小姐，先生，我对她比以往任何时候都更感兴趣。
Peggy marries John Timberlake very young.
佩吉很年轻就嫁给了约翰·汀布莱克。
She's only 17.
她才17岁。
He's a purser in the Navy, which means he has to go away on long trips all the time, leaving his very young, flirtatious wife back at her father's boarding house, where all kinds of important men, especially politicians, stay while Congress is in session.
他是海军的一名事务长，这意味着他必须一直长途旅行，把他非常年轻、轻浮的妻子留在她父亲的寄宿处，国会开会期间，各种重要人物，尤其是政客都会呆在那里。
She tends bar and does things women didn't usually do-- in particular, talking politics, hanging around with the guests-- while Timberlake is at sea.
当汀布莱克在海上时，她负责酒吧工作，做一些女性通常不做的事情——特别是谈论政治、与客人闲逛。
And while he was away, she came under the friendship of another older man, a senator from Tennessee named John Eaton.
当他不在的时候，她结识了另一位年长的男人，一位来自田纳西州的参议员，名叫约翰·伊顿。
Took a big interest in the young couple.
对这对年轻夫妇产生了浓厚的兴趣。
The husband had debt problems and he tried to help with them.
丈夫有债务问题，他试图帮助解决这些问题。
The old let-me-help-you-with-your-debt-problems routine evidently works.
旧的“让我帮助你解决债务问题”的惯例显然是有效的。
Gossip starts flying that Peggy and Senator Eaton are too intimate, that they are consorting.
流言蜚语开始盛行，说佩吉和伊顿参议员太亲密了，他们正在交往。
Then Timberlake dies at sea.
然后汀布莱克死在海上。
He cuts his own throat, in fact.
事实上，他割断了自己的喉咙。
Maybe because of his debts.
也许是因为他的债务。
Maybe, rumors had it at the time, because of Peggy.
也许，当时有谣言，因为佩吉。
And rather than mourning her husband for the customary year or two, Peggy, the Widow Mrs. John Timberlake, becomes Mrs. John Eaton just eight months later.
寡妇约翰·汀布莱克夫人佩吉并没有按照惯例哀悼她的丈夫一两年，而是在八个月后成为约翰·伊顿夫人。
This is not done.
这还没有完成。
It's outrageous.
太离谱了。
There's even talk that prior to the marriage, Peggy had become pregnant and had a miscarriage, or even an abortion.
甚至有传言说，在结婚之前，佩吉已经怀孕并流产，甚至堕胎。
The society ladies of Washington are thoroughly scandalized.
华盛顿的上流社会名媛们对此深感震惊。
Remember, women can't vote yet.
请记住，女性还不能投票。
They're not in politics.
他们不参与政治。
They're not even allowed to make public speeches.
他们甚至不被允许发表公开演讲。
But that doesn't mean they're silent, especially these Washington wives, who are exposed to the workings of government.
但这并不意味着她们保持沉默，尤其是这些接触政府运作的华盛顿妻子。
These ladies, in Jackson's time, they controlled social life, judged who was moral and who was not.
这些女士，在杰克逊时代，她们控制着社会生活，判断谁是道德的，谁是不道德的。
That's how they influenced their powerful husbands.
这就是她们影响她们有权势的丈夫的方式。
One of Peggy Eaton's biggest critics was Floride Calhoun, the wife of John C.
佩吉·伊顿最大的批评者之一是约翰·C·伊顿的妻子弗洛里德·卡尔霍恩。
Calhoun, the vice president-- so she was the vice president's wife-- from a very aristocratic South Carolina plantation aristocracy.
副总统卡尔霍恩——所以她是副总统的妻子——来自南卡罗来纳州一个非常贵族化的种植园贵族。
And she was the one who first made it clear Peggy Eaton was beyond the pale.
她是第一个明确表示佩吉·伊顿不道德的人。
She was not going to return her call.
她不打算回电话。
That was the way you conducted war among the petticoats, is someone came to pay a call on you, and then you did not return it.
这就是你们在衬裙之间进行战争的方式，就是有人来拜访你，然后你没有回应。
And that, in the etiquette that was evolving in this era, was tantamount to a full rejection.
而这，在这个时代正在演变的礼仪中，就等于是全面拒绝。
To a full cut.
到全切。
And what Floride Calhoun did, the other ladies fell in line, and also cut Peggy Eaton.
弗洛里德·卡尔霍恩（Floride Calhoun）所做的，其他女士也纷纷效仿，并且也削减了佩吉·伊顿（Peggy Eaton）。
Refused to acknowledge her socially.
拒绝在社交场合承认她。
The job of good Christian women at this time was to improve the United States by making sure their husbands and children were model citizens, rational and virtuous.
此时，优秀的基督教女性的工作是通过确保她们的丈夫和孩子成为理性和道德的模范公民来改善美国。
So it's not just that people disapproved of Peggy Eaton or were jealous of her, as that she was seen as a danger to the Republic.
因此，人们不仅不赞成佩吉·伊顿或嫉妒她，还因为她被视为对共和国的威胁。
She might lead their leaders astray.
她可能会让他们的领导人误入歧途。
We have been forced to take this stand for the salvation of the morals of our homes.
为了拯救我们家庭的道德，我们被迫采取这一立场。
Again, Hollywood.
再说好莱坞。
Angry Washington Matron We realize that her sphere of influence is great.
愤怒的华盛顿女护士长 我们意识到她的势力范围很大。
But we demand that she be removed from that sphere and expelled from our community.
但我们要求将她从这个领域中除名并驱逐出我们的社区。
All this was, of course, painful for Peggy Eaton.
当然，这一切对佩吉·伊顿来说都是痛苦的。
Or at least it sounded really painful for Joan Crawford, who played Peggy Eaton in The Gorgeous Hussy .
或者至少这对在《华丽女仆》中扮演佩吉·伊顿的琼·克劳馥来说听起来真的很痛苦。
I've humiliated myself.
我已经羞辱了自己。
I've called, knowing they were at home, to be told they were not.
我打电话时知道他们在家，却被告知他们不在家。
I've ignored insults, lies, gossip.
我忽视了侮辱、谎言和流言蜚语。
Their blue blood curdles in their veins at the very mention of the hussy.
一提到那个女人，他们的蓝色血液就在他们的血管里凝结。
Oh, they don't know anything about you, Peg.
哦，他们对你一无所知，佩格。
Enter Andrew Jackson, freshly elected President of the United States.
新当选的美国总统安德鲁·杰克逊登场。
Peggy Eaton's personal life will soon envelope his administration.
佩吉·伊顿的个人生活很快就会笼罩他的政府。
Jackson was a proud, emotional frontier politician with a famous temper.
杰克逊是一位骄傲、情绪化的边疆政治家，脾气暴躁。
He'd been orphaned by 14 or 15.
他14、15岁时就成了孤儿。
Both his parents and his two older brothers had died.
他的父母和两个哥哥都去世了。
But he makes his way to Tennessee, becomes a successful lawyer and landowner and slaveholder-- not to mention, a military hero.
但他来到了田纳西州，成为一名成功的律师、地主和奴隶主——更不用说，还是一名军事英雄。
And he manages all this without family connections.
而这一切都是他在没有家庭关系的情况下完成的。
So he's fiercely loyal to his close friends and political allies, including John Eaton.
因此，他对他的亲密朋友和政治盟友非常忠诚，包括约翰·伊顿。
So Eaton's trouble with the petticoats become Jackson's troubles with the petticoats.
因此，伊顿的衬裙问题变成了杰克逊的衬裙问题。
Having a virtuous wife was considered part of a test of a man's character.
拥有一个贤惠的妻子被认为是检验一个男人品格的一部分。
And by that test, Eaton had failed.
通过这次测试，伊顿失败了。
Now, here's where it gets interesting.
现在，事情变得有趣了。
By supporting Eaton, Andrew Jackson gave his enemies the ammunition to question his morality.
通过支持伊顿，安德鲁·杰克逊给了他的敌人质疑他道德的弹药。
Jackson wasn't going to stand for it.
杰克逊不会容忍这种行为。
He'd just been through a similar battle involving his own beloved wife, Rachel.
他刚刚经历了一场涉及他深爱的妻子雷切尔的类似战斗。
The presidential campaign of 1828 had savaged Andrew and Rachel Jackson.
1828 年的总统竞选给安德鲁·杰克逊 (Andrew Jackson) 和雷切尔·杰克逊 (Rachel Jackson) 带来了沉重打击。
Anti-Jackson campaigners, supporters of John Quincy Adams, portrayed her as a backwoods pipe-smoking hayseed, with low morals to boot.
反杰克逊活动人士、约翰·昆西·亚当斯的支持者将她描绘成一个在边远地区抽烟斗的草籽，道德低下。
Rachel had been in an unhappy marriage prior to her marrying Andrew Jackson.
雷切尔在嫁给安德鲁·杰克逊之前曾有过一段不幸福的婚姻。
But it turned out that the second marriage happened before her first one was technically dissolved, unbeknownst to the Jacksons.
但事实证明，第二次婚姻发生在她的第一次婚姻在技术上解除之前，杰克逊夫妇并不知道。
When they figured it out, they actually remarried.
当他们想通后，他们真的再婚了。
Nevertheless, the anti-Jackson party launched a smear campaign.
尽管如此，反杰克逊政党还是发起了抹黑运动。
There were lengthy pamphlets, newspaper articles, saying Rachel was a bigamist.
有长篇小册子和报纸文章说雷切尔是重婚者。
[RAUCOUS LAUGHTER] Angry Man Your Rachel ain't fit for the White House.
[喧闹的笑声] 愤怒的人，你的瑞秋不适合入主白宫。
So Jackson was accused of being unfit for the presidency because of his relationship, this unfortunate legal muddle with Rachel Jackson.
因此，杰克逊因与雷切尔·杰克逊的不幸法律纠纷而被指控不适合担任总统。
She was so distraught over the charges that she withdrew from private life.
她对这些指控感到心烦意乱，以至于退出了私人生活。
Get me my pipe, Peg.
佩格，把我的烟斗给我拿来。
One little puff can't do no harm.
吸一小口烟不会造成任何伤害。
The doctor says no, Aunt Rachel.
医生说不行，雷切尔阿姨。
No more pipe-smoking.
不再抽烟斗了。
This is an ailing Rachel Jackson, hunched in a rocker, wrapped in a dowdy shawl, confiding in Peggy.
这是生病的雷切尔·杰克逊，弓着背坐在摇椅上，裹着一条破旧的围巾，向佩吉吐露心声。
We don't know whether Peggy really called the soon-to-be President and First Lady "Aunt Rachel and Uncle Andy," as she does in the movie.
我们不知道佩吉是否真的像电影中那样称呼即将成为总统和第一夫人的“雷切尔阿姨和安迪叔叔”。
But apparently, the Jacksons had met her at her father's boarding house and had liked her.
但显然，杰克逊一家在她父亲的寄宿处遇见了她，并且喜欢她。
Peg, these womenfolks around here are going to make it awful unpleasant for you, just like they did for me.
佩格，这里的这些女人会让你感到非常不愉快，就像她们对我所做的那样。
Watch out for 'em, honey.
小心他们，亲爱的。
She eventually had a heart attack and died soon after his election.
她最终因心脏病发作在他当选后不久去世。
And he always blamed the gossip for having killed his Rachel.
他总是指责流言蜚语杀死了他的雷切尔。
At her funeral, he said, "May God forgive her murderers, as I know she forgave them.
在她的葬礼上，他说：“愿上帝原谅杀害她的凶手，据我所知，她原谅了他们。
I never can."
我永远不能。”
Their gossip killed my Rachel, Peg.
他们的流言蜚语杀死了我的雷切尔，佩格。
Their lying, scummy tongues killed her, just as sure as if they'd stabbed her with a knife.
他们的谎言、肮脏的舌头杀死了她，就像他们用刀刺伤她一样。
That's Lionel Barrymore, playing Andrew Jackson.
那是莱昂内尔·巴里摩尔，饰演安德鲁·杰克逊。
And I swear now, by her memory, they'll never do it again to anyone I love.
现在我以她的记忆发誓，他们再也不会对我爱的人这样做了。
Not so long as I've got one breath left in my body to stop 'em with.
只要我的身体还剩一口气就可以阻止他们。
So here's a man, he's in deep mourning.
这是一个人，他正处于深深的哀悼之中。
All the descriptions of him, he arrives as president in 1829 just broken-hearted.
根据对他的所有描述，他在 1829 年就任总统时心碎了。
He wants to make Eaton, who's a very close friend of his, part of his cabinet.
他想让伊顿这个他非常亲密的朋友成为他的内阁成员。
And he's told by the Washington insiders, don't do that.
华盛顿内部人士告诉他，不要这样做。
This Peggy Eaton affair, it will cause you all kinds of problems with the ladies of Washington, and their husbands as well.
佩吉·伊顿的这件事，会给你和华盛顿的女士们以及她们的丈夫带来各种各样的问题。
And Jackson is incensed.
杰克逊很生气。
This really strikes chords of what had happened to his own wife.
这确实引起了他妻子的遭遇的共鸣。
He was going to defend Peggy Eaton as he had defended his wife, as he expected any Christian gentleman to defend the honor of the woman he loves.
他将捍卫佩吉·伊顿，就像他捍卫他的妻子一样，正如他期望任何基督徒绅士捍卫他所爱的女人的荣誉一样。
And that, among the members of the cabinet, created a division.
这在内阁成员中造成了分歧。
Did you side with the Calhouns in rejecting Peggy?
你是否支持卡尔霍恩一家拒绝佩吉？
Or did you side with Andrew Jackson?
或者你支持安德鲁·杰克逊吗？
The surrogacies of this thing are dizzying.
这件事的代孕令人眼花缭乱。
Peggy is a surrogate for Rachel.
佩吉是雷切尔的代理人。
Jackson is Peggy's surrogate, fighting this fight on her behalf.
杰克逊是佩吉的代理人，代表她进行这场战斗。
And the scandal itself?
那么丑闻本身呢？
Jackson sees it as a proxy for his struggles with hoity-toity enemies who are trying to beat back the progress of our country-- our young, perky, outspoken immigrant country that's a lot like Miss Peggy O'Neale.
杰克逊将其视为他与那些妄自尊大的敌人斗争的代表，这些敌人试图阻止我们国家的进步——我们这个年轻、活泼、直言不讳的移民国家，很像佩吉·奥尼尔小姐。
Jackson, of course, does appoint Eaton his Secretary of War.
当然，杰克逊确实任命伊顿为战争部长。
And as the power couples of Washington publicly snub Peggy Eaton, now a cabinet wife, at the inauguration and at administration parties, Jackson proceeds to try to clear her reputation.
当华盛顿的权力夫妇在就职典礼和政府派对上公开冷落现在已成为内阁妻子的佩吉·伊顿时，杰克逊开始试图为她洗清声誉。
He gathers testimony about her behavior, collects affidavits, argues with church leaders about it, berates his cabinet members, who won't accept her innocence.
他收集有关她行为的证词，收集宣誓书，与教会领袖争论，斥责他的内阁成员，但他们不会接受她的清白。
He's president of the United States, and he becomes Peggy Eaton's de facto defense counsel.
他是美国总统，并成为佩吉·伊顿事实上的辩护律师。
He becomes obsessed.
他变得着迷。
But he cannot convince his administration.
但他无法说服他的政府。
Except for Secretary of State Martin Van Buren, almost no one sticks up for Peggy.
除了国务卿马丁·范布伦之外，几乎没有人支持佩吉。
By all accounts, he spent an extraordinary amount of time during his first term collecting information and haranguing people about Peggy Eaton.
据大家所说，他在第一个任期内花费了大量时间收集信息并向人们谈论佩吉·伊顿。
Eventually, the cabinet becomes dysfunctional.
最终，内阁变得功能失调。
This led to the resignation-- in some cases, voluntary, in some cases, forced-- of almost the entire cabinet.
这导致几乎整个内阁辞职——有时是自愿的，有时是被迫的。
They could not resolve this issue.
他们无法解决这个问题。
Eaton resigned.
伊顿辞职了。
Van Buren resigned.
范布伦辞职。
I hereby ask of you and accept your resignations.
我特此请求您并接受您的辞职。
But-- but this is without precedent in the history of our country.
但是——但是这在我国历史上是没有先例的。
Our country is without precedent, Mr. Calhoun.
卡尔霍恩先生，我们的国家是没有先例的。
But by the eternal, I'm going to have justice!
但到了永恒，我一定会伸张正义！
Do you understand the word?
你明白这个词吗？
Justice!
正义！
Now, git.
现在，吉特。
Essentially, Jackson started over again.
本质上，杰克逊又重新开始了。
He did eventually replace the cabinet.
他最终确实更换了内阁。
Was there any talk at the time that Jackson's obsession with this, that he was a little off-kilter, or he was just crazy?
当时有没有人谈论杰克逊对此的痴迷，他有点不正常，或者他只是疯了？
Why is he jeopardizing his entire government over defense of this woman?
为什么他会因为保护这个女人而危及整个政府？
Or did they see it as, well, we've got to get our loyalties straight or we can't function as a government anyway, so this is sort of part of the purging?
或者他们是否认为，我们必须明确我们的忠诚，否则我们无论如何都无法作为政府运作，所以这是清洗的一部分？
It seems crazy.
看起来很疯狂。
Yes.
是的。
I don't think there was the same level of awareness.
我认为人们的意识水平不高。
It's the historians who've gone back and looked at the amount of time, the number of letters that he wrote, that in retrospect, it's clear how obsessional he became about this.
历史学家回顾了他所花费的时间和写的信的数量，回想起来，很明显他对此有多么痴迷。
At the time, I think it was seen more as, this is partisan politics, and that it was viewed as a faction war.
当时，我认为这更多地被视为是党派政治，并且被视为派系战争。
American politics was in transition, Nancy says, from a party system that was more elite-dominated to a party system where the vast majority of white men could vote, whether or not they owned property or were well-educated.
南希说，美国政治正在转型，从精英主导的政党制度转向绝大多数白人都可以投票的政党制度，无论他们是否拥有财产或是否受过良好教育。
Politicians who want to get elected need to do this new thing-- engage the masses.
想要当选的政客需要做这件新事——吸引群众。
Engage their base.
吸引他们的基础。
And they found-- then, as now-- that these kinds of moral issues engaged the base.
他们发现——无论是当时还是现在——这些道德问题都引起了基层民众的关注。
In fact, at the time, it was seen as an issue of the elite Eastern seaboard against the up-and-coming West.
事实上，当时这被视为东部沿海精英与新兴西方的问题。
It was the common man against the aristocrats.
这是普通人对抗贵族。
Peggy was a woman of the people.
佩吉是一位人民的女性。
Andrew Jackson was a man of the people.
安德鲁·杰克逊是一个人民的人。
To focus on this kind of trivia, this gossip, to allow the gossip of these Washington matrons to trouble the president was a sign of this elite aristocracy creeping in.
关注这种琐事、这种八卦，让这些华盛顿贵妇们的八卦给总统添麻烦，是精英贵族悄然介入的迹象。
And that was completely unacceptable in the new republic.
这在新共和国中是完全不可接受的。
It had to be rooted out.
它必须被根除。
Jackson himself, he saw this as a conspiracy on the part of the Adams party to destroy him.
杰克逊本人认为这是亚当斯党企图摧毁他的阴谋。
And thus, by defending Peggy Eaton, he's really defending himself.
因此，通过捍卫佩吉·伊顿，他实际上是在捍卫自己。
The person he's largely defending himself against is his own vice president, John Calhoun.
他主要为自己辩护的人是他自己的副总统约翰·卡尔霍恩。
Remember, it's Calhoun's wife, Floride, who led the society women against Peggy.
请记住，是卡尔霍恩的妻子弗洛莱德领导了社会妇女反对佩吉。
John Calhoun and Jackson were fighting about other things, too, not just Peggy.
约翰·卡尔霍恩和杰克逊也在其他事情上发生争执，而不仅仅是佩吉。
A hugely controversial tariff, for instance, in 1828.
例如，1828 年的一项备受争议的关税。
It's a tariff on imported goods that Southerners like Calhoun see as putting the South, and especially his home state of South Carolina, at a disadvantage to the benefit of Northern manufacturers.
像卡尔霍恩这样的南方人认为，对进口商品征收关税会让南方，特别是他的家乡南卡罗来纳州，对北方制造商的利益处于不利地位。
And as their personal fight over Peggy Eaton spirals out of control, as Calhoun gets increasingly angry at Jackson, he starts agitating for the right of South Carolina to protect its own interests, even to secede, if necessary.
随着他们对佩吉·伊顿的个人争斗逐渐失控，卡尔霍恩对杰克逊越来越生气，他开始鼓动南卡罗来纳州有权保护自己的利益，甚至在必要时脱离联邦。
Then South Carolina tries to openly defy federal law.
然后南卡罗来纳州试图公开藐视联邦法律。
In 1832, it declares that federal tariffs will be null and void within its borders.
1832 年，它宣布联邦关税在其境内无效。
It's the Nullification Crisis.
这就是废止危机。
It's one of the biggest challenges of Jackson's presidency.
这是杰克逊总统任期内面临的最大挑战之一。
That same year, Vice President John Calhoun quits.
同年，副总统约翰·卡尔霍恩辞职。
Calhoun, once he resigns, he goes back to South Carolina.
卡尔霍恩，一旦辞职，他就会回到南卡罗来纳州。
He's elected to the Senate, and as a senator, becomes the architect of the states' rights philosophy in the South.
他当选为参议院议员，并作为参议员成为南方各州权利哲学的建筑师。
Jackson, as a Southerner, is sympathetic to states' rights.
杰克逊作为南方人，同情各州的权利。
But when push comes to shove, he sees the Union as the top priority and faces down Calhoun in the Nullification Controversy.
但到了紧要关头，他将联盟视为重中之重，并在废止争议中对抗卡尔霍恩。
It's a major, major rehearsal for the Civil War.
这是内战的一次重大排练。
They eventually reach a compromise, so South Carolina does not secede.
他们最终达成妥协，因此南卡罗来纳州没有脱离。
But Abraham Lincoln took a great deal of inspiration from Andrew Jackson's position.
但亚伯拉罕·林肯从安德鲁·杰克逊的立场中得到了很多启发。
The Union-above-all position that Lincoln would eventually have to adopt, as well.
林肯最终也必须采取联盟至上的立场。
[LAUGHTER] Nancy Tomes Yes, Peggy really gave us the red, white and blue, and--
[笑声] Nancy Tomes 是的，Peggy 确实给了我们红色、白色和蓝色，而且——
That's why you and I are sitting here today.
这就是你和我今天坐在这里的原因。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Sarah Koenig The big winner in all this-- besides the Union, of course, and Joan Crawford-- was a man whose name has undoubtedly been on the tip of your tongue-- Martin Van Buren.
莎拉·柯尼格 这一切的最大赢家——当然，除了联盟和琼·克劳馥——是一个名字无疑已经挂在嘴边的人——马丁·范布伦。
He became the next vice president, and after that, the next president.
他成为下一任副总统，之后又成为下一任总统。
Not John Calhoun, who'd been widely expected to take over.
约翰·卡尔霍恩(John Calhoun)则不然，人们普遍预计他会接任。
Once he resigned as vice president, Calhoun's aspirations were finished.
辞去副总统职务后，卡尔霍恩的愿望就结束了。
No, it was Van Buren, the only member of Jackson's cabinet who'd carefully, strategically supported Peggy Eaton during the Petticoat Affair, who understood that it was in his own interest to break Washington social protocol and pay a visit to Mrs. Eaton.
不，是范布伦，杰克逊内阁中唯一在衬裙事件中小心翼翼地、战略性地支持佩吉·伊顿的成员，他明白打破华盛顿的社交礼仪去拜访伊顿夫人符合他自己的利益。
To knock on her door.
去敲她的门。
30 years after the Petticoat Affair, in 1860, a journalist named James Parton published a biography of Jackson.
衬裙事件 30 年后的 1860 年，一位名叫詹姆斯·帕顿的记者出版了杰克逊的传记。
Chapter 23 was titled "Mr. Van Buren Calls On Mrs. Eaton." Parton wrote, quote, "The political history of the United States for the last 30 years dates from the moment when the soft hand of Mr. Van Buren touched Mrs. Eaton's knocker."
第23章的标题是“范布伦先生拜访伊顿夫人”。帕顿写道，“美国过去30年的政治历史可以追溯到范布伦先生柔软的手触碰伊顿夫人门环的那一刻。”
Sarah Koenig.
莎拉·科尼格.
I don't know what you just think you heard right there, but she is one of the producers of our show.
我不知道你认为你听到了什么，但她是我们节目的制片人之一。
[MUSIC - "PEGGY O'NEIL" BY TONY WILLIAMS]
[音乐 - 托尼·威廉姆斯的《佩吉·奥尼尔》]
Coming up, a teenager tries to understand why her dad wants to adopt a 27-year-old ex-con into the family.
接下来，一名青少年试图理解为什么她的父亲想要收养一名 27 岁的有犯罪前科的女孩。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
一分钟后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme, bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，我们每周的节目都会选择一个主题，为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's program, "Surrogates." People standing in for other people, substituting in all kinds of situations.
今天的节目是《代理人》。人们在各种情况下代替他人。
We have arrived at Act Two of our program.
我们已经进入了计划的第二幕。
Act Two, "Maul in the Family."
第二幕，“家庭中的摩尔”。
This is a story where a bunch of people, including the father of the person who's going to be telling the story, see themselves in somebody who did some truly, truly awful things.
在这个故事中，一群人，包括讲述这个故事的人的父亲，在一个做了一些真正非常可怕的事情的人身上看到了自己。
A warning-- if you're listening with kids or have sensitivity to such things, this story has some violence in it.
警告——如果你和孩子们一起听或者对这些事情很敏感，这个故事里有一些暴力。
On the positive side, there's also a brief appearance by Neil Patrick Harris.
从积极的一面来看，尼尔·帕特里克·哈里斯也短暂露面。
Amity Bitzel tells the story.
阿米蒂·比泽尔讲述了这个故事。
When I was 16, my parents adopted a 27-year-old man.
当我16岁的时候，我的父母收养了一个27岁的男人。
Not long after he moved in, NBC broadcast a made-for-TV movie based on his life called Sudden Fury-- A Family Torn Apart.
他搬进来后不久，美国全国广播公司 (NBC) 播放了一部根据他的生活制作的电视电影，名为《骤然的愤怒——一个支离破碎的家庭》。
It was about his life before we adopted him.
这是关于我们收养他之前他的生活。
My entire family gathered in our living room to watch.
我全家人都聚集在客厅观看。
Neil Patrick Harris played the character based on my new brother.
尼尔·帕特里克·哈里斯根据我的新兄弟扮演了这个角色。
It opens with him, a teenager in a big suburban house, making a phone call.
故事开头是他，一个在郊区一栋大房子里的少年，打电话。
[PHONE BEING DIALED] Police Operator Annapolis Police.
[正在拨打电话]安纳波利斯警察局接线员。
Hello?
你好？
I'm sorry, I can't hear you.
抱歉，我听不到你说话。
I think my parents are dead.
我想我的父母已经死了。
Amity Bitzel When the police arrive at the house, it's a gruesome scene.
阿米蒂·比泽尔（Amity Bitzel） 当警察到达这所房子时，场面十分可怕。
His father is in the basement, covered with blood, stabbed to death.
他的父亲在地下室里被刺死，浑身是血。
His mother's outside in her pajamas, lying face-down in the yard.
他的母亲穿着睡衣，脸朝下躺在院子里。
She's been both stabbed and bludgeoned.
她被刺伤和殴打。
In the movie, they call my adopted brother Brian, though his name was really Larry Swartz.
在电影中，他们称我的养弟为布莱恩，尽管他的名字实际上是拉里·斯沃茨。
And in the film, as he becomes the main suspect, his lawyers confront him.
在影片中，当他成为主要嫌疑人时，他的律师与他对峙。
Listen, Brian, we have a little problem.
听着，布莱恩，我们有一个小问题。
The police don't believe your story.
警察不相信你的故事。
They think you're lying.
他们认为你在撒谎。
Like how you got blood on your shoes, and why you didn't hear anything on the night of the murder.
比如你的鞋子上有血迹，以及为什么你在谋杀当晚没有听到任何声音。
How do you explain that?
你怎么解释？
I can't.
我不能。
Attorney Yes you can.
律师 是的，你可以。
Yes, you can.
是的，你可以。
I can't.
我不能。
Attorney Tell me what happened.
律师告诉我发生了什么事。
[SCREAMS WITH RAGE] He wouldn't stop hurting me.
[愤怒尖叫]他不会停止伤害我。
He wouldn't stop hurting me.
他不会停止伤害我。
He wouldn't stop.
他不会停下来。
My sister and I sat on the floor as the film played.
电影播放时，我和姐姐坐在地板上。
Larry, the real person, my new brother, who killed his parents, sat next to my mom and dad, his new mom and dad, on the couch.
拉里，真正的人，我的新兄弟，杀死了他的父母，坐在我的父母，他的新父母旁边，坐在沙发上。
Everyone acted calm.
大家都表现得很平静。
[WEEPING] Amity Bitzel The movie did a pretty good job of portraying what actually happened.
[哭泣]阿米蒂·比泽尔这部电影很好地描绘了实际发生的事情。
A warning-- this next half-minute or so of my story gets graphic.
警告——接下来的半分钟左右我的故事变得生动起来。
He'd repeatedly stabbed his father and his mother with a kitchen knife and bludgeoned his mother with a maul, one of those big wood-chopping things that looks like an axe.
他曾多次用菜刀刺伤他的父亲和母亲，并用大锤殴打他的母亲，大锤是一种看起来像斧头的大型砍柴工具。
The movie doesn't include this, but when the police found Larry's mother's body, she was naked.
电影中没有包括这一点，但当警察发现拉里母亲的尸体时，她赤身裸体。
Larry's lawyer told a reporter that Larry admitted to sexually violating her.
拉里的律师告诉记者，拉里承认对她进行了性侵犯。
When the end credits rolled, we agreed the movie seemed over the top, almost corny, in that prime-time TV way.
当片尾字幕滚动时，我们一致认为这部电影看起来有点过头了，几乎是老生常谈，就像黄金时段的电视方式一样。
I remember somebody-- either Larry or my dad-- joking about how melodramatic it all was.
我记得有人——要么是拉里，要么是我爸爸——开玩笑说这一切是多么的戏剧化。
It was a hallucinatory experience, but also it was somehow utterly banal.
这是一种幻觉的经历，但也不知何故完全平庸。
Let's watch a movie about our adopted killer brother, joke about it, and then get ready for bed.
我们看一部关于我们收养的杀手兄弟的电影，开个玩笑，然后准备睡觉。
Larry ended up in our family because about four years earlier, my mother read the book the film was based on, Sudden Fury , by a reporter named Leslie Walker, and gave it to my dad, who read it also.
拉里之所以来到我们家，是因为大约四年前，我母亲读了一位名叫莱斯利·沃克（Leslie Walker）的记者所著的这部电影的原著《骤怒》，并将其交给了我父亲，我父亲也读了这本书。
Which was weird, because he rarely read anything.
这很奇怪，因为他很少读任何东西。
He was never enthusiastic about a book.
他对一本书从来没有热情。
But he seemed to really connect with the story.
但他似乎真的很喜欢这个故事。
And when my parents talked about the case and Larry, they didn't say, oh, who could do such a violent and horrible thing?
当我的父母谈论这个案子和拉里时，他们并没有说，哦，谁能做出如此暴力和可怕的事情？
They said how sorry they felt for him, how he was a victim of abuse.
他们说他们为他感到多么难过，他是多么的虐待受害者。
Which he was.
他就是这样。
The book details Larry's troubled childhood, starting with how his mother abandoned him as a toddler, and follows him as he's shuttled through an uncaring foster system, six families in all.
这本书详细描述了拉里坎坷的童年，从他的母亲如何在他蹒跚学步时抛弃他开始，并跟随他穿越一个冷漠的寄养系统，总共有六个家庭。
One foster mother broke his arm.
一位养母折断了手臂。
In several homes, Larry showed signs of an eating disorder, even sneaking food out of garbage cans.
在一些家庭中，拉里表现出饮食失调的迹象，甚至从垃圾桶里偷吃食物。
Larry's adoption by the well-meaning Swartzes was meant to give him the family he had longed for.
拉里被好心的斯沃茨夫妇收养，是为了给他一个他渴望已久的家庭。
But as time went on, the Swartzes became controlling and emotionally abusive.
但随着时间的推移，斯沃茨夫妇变得控制欲强、情绪虐待。
After he read Sudden Fury , my dad wrote a letter to Larry in prison.
读完《暴怒》后，我爸爸给监狱里的拉里写了一封信。
And for whatever reason, Larry wrote back to my dad.
不管出于什么原因，拉里给我爸爸回了信。
Letters graduated to phone calls, and eventually, my father began driving several hours away to visit with Larry.
信件逐渐变成了电话，最终，我父亲开始开车几个小时去拜访拉里。
The next thing I knew, my dad told us that we were going to visit Larry together in prison as a family.
接下来我知道的事情是，我父亲告诉我们，我们将全家一起去监狱探望拉里。
He wants to meet you guys, my dad told us.
我爸爸告诉我们，他想见见你们。
We were let into the visiting room.
我们被带进了探视室。
I noticed the other people sitting there and wondered if they were seeing murderers, too.
我注意到坐在那里的其他人，想知道他们是否也看到了凶手。
And then, suddenly, there was Larry.
然后，突然间，拉里出现了。
He and my dad hugged, and then my dad pushed me to hug him as well.
他和我爸爸拥抱了，然后我爸爸也推我拥抱他。
I didn't want to, but with my dad, you did what you were told.
我不想，但对我爸爸来说，你就照他说的做了。
I knew what Larry looked like from pictures in the book.
我从书中的图片中知道拉里长什么样。
Here, he looked normal, unassuming.
在这里，他看起来很平常，不张扬。
Slight build, big, dark eyes with almost girlish lashes, soft-spoken.
身材苗条，黑色的大眼睛，有着少女般的睫毛，说话轻声细语。
We'd brought Big Macs and fries, and we sat there picking at food awkwardly.
我们带来了巨无霸和薯条，然后尴尬地坐在那里挑选食物。
I don't think it could've been any more awkward.
我不认为这会更尴尬。
My little sister asked Larry if he had seen the movie Mermaids , with Cher.
我妹妹问拉里是否看过雪儿主演的电影《美人鱼》。
We talked about what the weather was going to do.
我们讨论了天气状况。
How do you girls like school?
你们女孩子喜欢上学吗？
The thought that was running through my head during this prison visit, that had been running through my head ever since I'd first heard my parents talk about Larry, was this.
在这次监狱探访期间，自从我第一次听到父母谈论拉里以来，我脑海中一直萦绕着这样的想法。
How could my parents feel so sorry for Larry and his terrible circumstances?
我的父母怎么会对拉里和他的糟糕处境感到如此难过呢？
Why didn't they feel sorry for me?
为什么他们不为我感到难过？
Because life with my father was miserable.
因为我和父亲的生活很痛苦。
In my house, we lived by his rules, rules that were fluid and shifting and terrifying.
在我家里，我们按照他的规则生活，这些规则是流动的、变化的、令人恐惧的。
Something small and accidental could set him off in a rage.
一些小事和偶然的事情可能会让他勃然大怒。
Maybe my sister or I broke a cup or slammed the car door too hard.
也许我或姐姐打碎了一个杯子，或者把车门摔得太用力了。
Or maybe we hadn't even done anything at all.
或者也许我们根本什么都没做。
We would still be on the receiving end of my father's wrath.
我们仍然会受到父亲的愤怒。
And once he started drinking, we knew we were in for it.
一旦他开始喝酒，我们就知道我们会陷入困境。
These episodes usually began the same way.
这些情节通常以相同的方式开始。
First, he would drink.
首先，他会喝酒。
Not even hard alcohol, just beer.
连烈性酒都没有，只有啤酒。
And he would blast music and sing loudly, always Jackson Browne and John Cougar Mellencamp.
他会放音乐并大声唱歌，总是杰克逊·布朗和约翰·库格·梅伦坎普。
To this day, I have a visceral Pavlovian response to songs like "Running on Empty."
直到今天，我对“Running on Empty”这样的歌曲仍有一种发自内心的巴甫洛夫式反应。
Then after his low-grade anger progressed into full-blown fury, he might force us all into the family van and drive us around drunk for hours, screaming and swerving the whole time.
然后，当他的低级愤怒发展为全面的愤怒后，他可能会强迫我们所有人进入家庭货车，并带着醉酒的我们几个小时到处乱跑，一路上尖叫和转弯。
Or he might go into my sister's room and smash up every piece of furniture in it.
或者他可能会进入我姐姐的房间并砸碎里面的每一件家具。
He might brandish a rifle and threaten to shoot all of us.
他可能会挥舞着步枪并威胁要射杀我们所有人。
He might hit me or my sister with a belt.
他可能会用皮带打我或我妹妹。
Worst of all, he might wrap his hands around my mother's throat and strangle her as my sister and I tried to pull him away.
最糟糕的是，当我和姐姐试图把他拉开时，他可能会用手掐住我母亲的喉咙并勒死她。
I don't know why it never occurred to me to call the police during any of this, but I never did.
我不知道为什么在这期间我从来没有想过要报警，但我从来没有这样做过。
No one did.
没有人这么做。
And things weren't at this level all the time, of course.
当然，事情并非一直处于这个水平。
Even on a good day, though, it felt like living in a child's version of war, just waiting to see if the bombs would start falling and wishing you had shelter.
然而，即使在美好的一天，感觉就像生活在儿童版的战争中，只是等着看炸弹是否会开始落下，并希望自己有庇护所。
By 1993, Larry was set to be released.
1993 年，拉里即将获释。
He'd originally had a 12-year sentence, but three years of that were knocked off for good behavior.
他最初被判处 12 年徒刑，但因表现良好而被减刑三年。
The judge could have given him two 20-year sentences for both of the murders, but knocked it down to 12 years total, which shows how seriously the judicial system viewed Larry's troubled upbringing.
法官本来可以就这两起谋杀案判处他两次 20 年有期徒刑，但最终将其总共判处 12 年，这表明司法系统对拉里坎坷的成长经历有多么重视。
In the end, he served nine years.
最终，他服刑九年。
For a while, my parents had been talking about how Larry would have no place to live and nowhere to go.
有一段时间，我的父母一直在谈论拉里将没有地方住，也无处可去。
He would be on probation, and he would need a job.
他将处于缓刑期，并且需要一份工作。
My dad was worried that Larry would be eaten up on the outside, that he needed guidance.
我爸爸担心拉里会被外面的人吃掉，他需要指导。
How would he be able to forge a life for himself, especially bearing that notorious name that had been on the news?
尤其是背着新闻里那个臭名昭著的名字，他该如何为自己打造自己的生活呢？
The name of a convicted murderer?
被定罪的杀人犯的名字？
And so the decision was made that Larry would be formally adopted into our family.
因此我们决定正式收养拉里。
He would take our last name, and he would live with us in our home.
他会继承我们的姓氏，并与我们一起住在我们家里。
There was never a big discussion about any of this.
从来没有对这一切进行过大的讨论。
As with everything else, we were informed of the new plan by my dad after it had already been decided.
和其他事情一样，新计划是在决定后才由我父亲通知我们的。
I don't remember my mom saying much about it.
我不记得我妈妈说过太多这件事。
That was how she was about almost everything, a silent bystander.
她几乎对所有事情都是这样，一个沉默的旁观者。
It's the right thing to do, Dad said, and so that was that.
这是正确的做法，爸爸说，所以就是这样。
But it didn't mean I was OK with it.
但这并不意味着我对此感到满意。
I'd gotten used to meeting with Larry in prison, but the idea of him sleeping in the bedroom next to mine?
我已经习惯了在监狱里与拉里见面，但他睡在我隔壁的卧室的想法吗？
That was a whole different proposition.
这是一个完全不同的提议。
I had fantasies where some responsible adult would find out and say, oh my God, we have to stop this.
我幻想一些负责任的成年人会发现并说，天哪，我们必须阻止这一切。
I remember telling one of my girlfriends the entire story.
我记得我把整个故事告诉了我的一位女朋友。
She was shocked, of course, though she knew what my dad was like.
当然，她很震惊，尽管她知道我父亲是什么样的人。
But when she told her mother what my family was doing, her mother said, well, that's a very Christian thing to do.
但当她告诉她母亲我家人在做什么时，她母亲说，好吧，这是一件非常基督教的事情。
The outside world was never coming to intervene, to save any of us.
外部世界永远不会来干预，来拯救我们任何人。
On Larry's first night in our home, we had dinner.
拉里来到我们家的第一个晚上，我们共进晚餐。
There was a celebratory cake.
有一个庆祝蛋糕。
The only way to get through this, really, was to disassociate, a skill I all too familiar with.
事实上，解决这个问题的唯一方法就是脱离联系，这是我非常熟悉的技能。
I tried not to think at all.
我试着完全不去想。
Chew, swallow, smile.
咀嚼、吞咽、微笑。
And Larry was not scary or menacing.
拉里并不可怕或具有威胁性。
Not at all.
一点也不。
He was nice and funny.
他很好而且很有趣。
I never had any fear that he would hurt me, or any of us.
我从不担心他会伤害我或我们任何人。
It wasn't hard to forget what he had done, because he didn't seem to be thinking about it, ever.
忘记他所做的事情并不难，因为他似乎从来没有想过它。
He actually took me to the mall that first week.
第一周他就带我去了商场。
Neither one of us had a license, and we got lost on the way.
我们俩都没有驾照，结果在路上迷路了。
But contrary to what my dad would have done, which is freak out and start screaming and berating me, Larry just laughed and got us going in the right direction.
但与我父亲的做法相反，他会吓坏了，开始尖叫和斥责我，拉里只是笑了，让我们朝着正确的方向前进。
We didn't have a lot to talk about, just chatted about movies and music.
我们没什么可聊的，只是聊电影和音乐。
When we got there, he bought me my first pair of Doc Martens.
当我们到达那里时，他给我买了我的第一双 Doc Martens 鞋。
Looking back, what's most striking to me is that Larry, the man who had stabbed and bludgeoned his parents to death, wasn't nearly as scary to me as my own father.
回想起来，最让我震惊的是，拉里，那个刺伤和殴打他父母的人，对我来说并不像我自己的父亲那么可怕。
Larry settled in, made friends, went out drinking.
拉里安顿下来，交了朋友，出去喝酒。
Mind-blowingly to me, he even started to date.
令我惊讶的是，他甚至开始约会。
And Larry's presence brought us a truly unexpected benefit.
而Larry的出现给我们带来了真正意想不到的好处。
As he settled into his new life in our house, things actually seemed to get calmer in our family.
当他在我们家适应新生活时，我们家里的事情实际上似乎变得更加平静。
Incredibly, my father stopped much of his old behavior.
令人难以置信的是，我父亲停止了他以前的大部分行为。
You could spill a drink at the dinner table and not have to cringe in fearful anticipation.
你可以在餐桌上洒出一杯饮料，而不必因恐惧的期待而畏缩。
It was like the outside-world father, the one that smiled and was kind and funny in public, had somehow become the inside-world father.
就像外面的父亲，那个在公共场合微笑、友善、风趣的父亲，不知何故变成了内心世界的父亲。
My dad was good to Larry.
我爸爸对拉里很好。
He got him a job.
他给他找到了一份工作。
They went out together a lot, saying they were going fishing, going to a bar.
他们经常一起出去，说要去钓鱼，去酒吧。
They grocery shopped together sometimes.
他们有时一起去杂货店买东西。
There was rough-housing and laughter.
那里充满了粗暴的住房和笑声。
My dad even had an addition built onto our house for Larry so that everyone would have more room.
我爸爸甚至为拉里在我们的房子上加建了一座，这样每个人都有更多的空间。
Eventually, though, my dad decided that our house still wasn't big enough and that we would have to get a bigger, nicer house.
但最终，我父亲认为我们的房子仍然不够大，我们必须买一栋更大、更好的房子。
So we moved.
所以我们搬家了。
That year, even though we had never been on a true family vacation together pre-Larry, my parents took everyone to Disney World, although I said I had too much schoolwork and didn't go with them.
那一年，尽管我们在拉里之前从未一起度过过真正的家庭假期，但我的父母还是带大家去了迪士尼世界，尽管我说我功课太多，没有和他们一起去。
I'm not sure if Larry ever knew the father I knew, if he suspected the loving family that took him in echoed in any way the abusive homes he had lived in growing up.
我不确定拉里是否认识我认识的父亲，他是否怀疑收留他的充满爱的家庭与他成长过程中所生活的虐待家庭有任何相似之处。
Larry is dead now.
拉里现在死了。
He eventually got married and moved to Florida, and then died of a heart attack there in his late 30s.
他最终结婚并搬到了佛罗里达州，然后在 30 多岁的时候死于心脏病。
And 20 years after Larry became my brother, I'm still wondering why.
拉里成为我兄弟 20 年后，我仍然想知道为什么。
For years, my sister and I maintained a polite facade with our parents, never bringing up the abuse and barely discussing Larry.
多年来，我和姐姐对父母都保持着礼貌的态度，从不提起虐待行为，也几乎不讨论拉里。
So much time had gone by, maybe it was best to just forgive and forget as much as possible.
时间已经过去了，也许最好的办法就是尽可能地原谅和忘记。
But in the last 12 months, my sister and I have gotten closer, and we finally started to talk honestly about the past.
但在过去的12个月里，我和姐姐的关系越来越近，我们终于开始诚实地谈论过去。
We wondered what would happen if we stopped speaking to our dad completely.
我们想知道如果我们完全停止与父亲交谈会发生什么。
Would that make us horrible people?
这会让我们成为可怕的人吗？
Evil and cruel daughters, like some reverse fairytale?
邪恶残忍的女儿们，像逆向童话吗？
Together, we decided to cut off contact.
我们一起决定断绝联系。
We each did this over email.
我们每个人都通过电子邮件完成此操作。
Mine wasn't overly dramatic or vitriolic.
我的话并不过分戏剧性或刻薄。
Just a short note explaining that I needed to stop talking to him because of all the things he had done.
只是一条简短的说明，解释说我需要停止与他交谈，因为他所做的所有事情。
He sent lots of emails after I sent mine, and I read them all without responding.
我发完邮件后，他又发了很多邮件，我都读了没有回复。
I'm not sure how I'm supposed to navigate this, how this new stage works.
我不确定我应该如何应对这个问题，这个新阶段如何运作。
And I still have so many questions for him.
我还有很多问题要问他。
There are lots of things that only he has the answer to.
很多事情只有他自己才有答案。
As I was working on this story, I was still too scared to ask him about Larry myself.
当我在写这个故事时，我仍然不敢亲自向他询问拉里的情况。
Just the thought of asking him anything about the past seemed frightening.
光是想到要问他过去的事就让人感到害怕。
So the producer from This American Life I've been working with on this story, Brian Reed, offered to do it for me.
因此，与我合作制作这个故事的《美国生活》的制片人布莱恩·里德主动提出为我做这件事。
So Brian talked to him in the studio.
所以布莱恩在工作室里和他交谈。
Hi, Brian, how you doing?
嗨，布莱恩，你好吗？
Brian Reed Hi, Glenn.
布莱恩·里德 嗨，格伦。
How are you?
你好吗？
Good, good.
好，好。
Amity Bitzel They talked for two hours-- about Larry, about how the book was the catalyst for everything my dad did for him, about the big question, why he adopted Larry.
阿米蒂·比泽尔 他们聊了两个小时——关于拉里，关于这本书如何成为我父亲为他所做的一切的催化剂，关于一个大问题，为什么他收养拉里。
He said at one point he had to explain to a judge exactly that.
他说有一次他必须向法官准确解释这一点。
The judge looked at me square in the eye, which a lot of the questions he had, I'm sure, are the same questions that everyone else had.
法官直视着我的眼睛，我确信他提出的很多问题和其他人提出的问题是一样的。
Why are you involved in this?
你为什么参与其中？
And I just looked at him and said, everybody needs a family.
我只是看着他说，每个人都需要一个家庭。
And that's really the only thing that I can comment on, as far as why.
就原因而言，这确实是我唯一可以评论的事情。
Everybody needs a family, and certainly, this is one young man, as an adult, who never really had a childhood, who needs a family.
每个人都需要一个家庭，当然，这是一个年轻人，作为一个成年人，他从未真正拥有过童年，他需要一个家庭。
Especially when he gets out.
尤其是当他出去的时候。
Now, so I need to ask you this, just because I read the book, recently, Sudden Fury .
现在，我需要问你这个问题，只是因为我最近读了这本书，《骤怒》。
And you know, you talking about Larry, you said several times, "poor old Larry." And you clearly love him and are very sympathetic towards him.
你知道，当你谈论拉里时，你多次说过“可怜的老拉里”。而且你显然很爱他并且非常同情他。
But when I read that book, I mean, I have some sympathy for him, for sure.
但当我读那本书时，我的意思是，我确实对他有一些同情。
He had a very challenging childhood that I find hard to imagine.
他的童年非常充满挑战，我很难想象。
But I also see a person who brutally stabbed his parents, hit his mother over the head with a maul and sexually violated her.
但我也看到一个人残忍地刺伤了他的父母，用大锤打了他母亲的头部，并对她进行了性侵犯。
And so I find it very hard to think of him as "poor old Larry." And I wonder, what did you identify with personally in that story?
所以我发现很难把他视为“可怜的老拉里”。我想知道，你个人在这个故事中认同什么？
I mean, to the point where you--
我的意思是，到了你——
Abuse.
滥用。
Brian Reed I mean, it's one thing to read the book--
布莱恩·里德（Brian Reed）我的意思是，读这本书是一回事——
Abuse.
滥用。
Parental abuse, obviously.
父母虐待，这是显而易见的。
I didn't want to go back into my childhood too far, but that's-- you know, it's, that's a whole--
我不想回到太远的童年，但那是——你知道，那是一个整体——
What can you say about it, to help people understand?
您能对此说些什么来帮助人们理解？
What would--
什么会——
Physical, mental-- physical, mental, emotional, you name it.
身体上的、精神上的——身体上的、精神上的、情感上的，凡是你能想到的。
I lost my mother at age eight.
我八岁时失去了母亲。
And I'm not really sure that my father ever wanted us.
我不太确定我父亲是否想要我们。
So I just identified with him mainly from my experience growing up as a child.
所以我主要是根据我小时候的成长经历来认同他的。
Just touched a nerve with me.
刚刚触动了我的神经。
When we got to talking about different things, about things that happened in certain foster homes, and I-- well, you know what?
当我们开始谈论不同的事情，谈论某些寄养家庭中发生的事情时，我——嗯，你知道吗？
That happened in my house, too.
我家也发生过这种事。
I never ended up doing the thing that Larry did, but I will say this-- it's not something that never crossed my mind.
我最终没有做拉里所做的事情，但我要说的是——这不是我从未想过的事情。
You know, I'd wondered that.
你知道，我就想知道这一点。
Do you remember what you thought or when you thought it?
你还记得你在想什么或者什么时候想的吗？
Mostly when my mom was being beaten.
主要是当我妈妈被打的时候。
You don't like to watch that day after day, especially when you're five, six years old, seven years old.
你不喜欢日复一日地观看，尤其是当你五岁、六岁、七岁的时候。
Another time that I can remember was he would go off for simple little things that made no sense, like a bag of groceries falling off a car seat and the eggs breaking.
我记得的另一次是，他会因为一些毫无意义的简单小事而发脾气，比如一袋杂货从汽车座椅上掉下来，鸡蛋碎了。
That happened one day, and we were beaten for it.
有一天，事情发生了，我们因此遭到殴打。
And my brother took off running, and ran as fast as he could through a field of plowed dirt.
我哥哥开始跑步，尽可能快地跑过一片犁过的泥土。
And he had his head and his face pushed face-down in it.
他的头和脸都面朝下埋在里面。
And that was one time when I just was so angry and so upset that I thought about it.
那一次我非常生气和沮丧，以至于我想到了这一点。
Sure.
当然。
Told Larry everything.
把一切都告诉了拉里。
Brian Reed What did he say?
布莱恩·里德 他说什么？
He understood, but he certainly was glad that, you know, that I didn't do it, because I wouldn't have been there to help him, in his kind of jokingly way.
他理解，但他当然很高兴，你知道，我没有这么做，因为我不会以他开玩笑的方式在那里帮助他。
He always kept a smile on your face.
他总是在你的脸上挂着微笑。
Apparently lots of people who had troubled relationships with their parents identified with Larry.
显然，很多与父母关系有问题的人都认同拉里。
The book my dad read about Larry names a few.
我父亲读过的关于拉里的书列举了一些例子。
Larry's lawyer, who was estranged from his own father, and defended Larry pro bono.
拉里的律师与拉里的父亲关系疏远，无偿为拉里辩护。
A 30-year-old mother who talked to Larry on the phone almost every night as he awaited trial-- she lost her mom as a kid and had come very close to shooting her abusive father.
一位 30 岁的母亲在拉里等待审判时几乎每天晚上都与他通电话——她小时候就失去了母亲，差点就开枪射杀了虐待她的父亲。
Like my dad, each of them seemed to see some version of themselves in Larry.
和我父亲一样，他们每个人似乎都在拉里身上看到了自己的影子。
My dad spoke longingly about Larry.
我父亲满怀渴望地谈到拉里。
He and my mom live in Florida now, and he told Brian a good part of the reason they moved there was to be close to where Larry died.
他和我妈妈现在住在佛罗里达州，他告诉布莱恩，他们搬到那里的很大一部分原因是靠近拉里去世的地方。
He said the Larry he knew was not the Larry described in the Sudden Fury book, that years of therapy had worked and he was a different person.
他说他认识的拉里不是《骤怒》书中描述的拉里，多年的治疗起了作用，他是一个不同的人。
He explained how honest Larry was, how generous he was, and how appreciative he was of what my parents did for him.
他解释了拉里是多么诚实，他是多么慷慨，以及他多么感激我父母为他所做的一切。
Brian also asked my dad some sensitive questions about how he behaved during my childhood to give him the chance to tell his side of the story.
布莱恩还问了我父亲一些关于他在我童年时期的行为举止的敏感问题，让他有机会讲述他的故事。
My dad categorically denied that he was abusive when I was growing up.
我父亲断然否认他在我成长过程中虐待过我。
He denied getting drunk and smashing furniture, driving us around and yelling, or strangling my mom.
他否认喝醉了酒，砸坏了家具，开车带我们到处喊叫，或者勒死了我妈妈。
He denied hitting my sister and I with a belt.
他否认用皮带打我和妹妹。
He denied waving around a rifle and threatening to shoot us all.
他否认挥舞着步枪并威胁要射杀我们所有人。
No. Those things never happened.
不，那些事情从未发生过。
I don't know why she would say those things.
我不知道她为什么会说这些话。
Amity had a wonderful childhood.
阿米蒂有一个美好的童年。
Horseback riding lessons.
骑马课程。
Amity got in fights in school, I'd go and I'd get them straightened out.
阿米蒂在学校里打架了，我会去解决他们的问题。
I mean, I was always there for her.
我的意思是，我一直在她身边。
There's different levels of abuse, but you're talking about 100% level in my case and a zero in hers.
虐待有不同的程度，但你说的是我的情况为 100%，而她的情况为 0。
And your case, you mean when you were a kid.
你的情况是指你小时候的情况。
When I was a kid.
当我还是个孩子的时候。
Brian Reed And are you just measuring against what you experienced?
Brian Reed 你只是根据你的经历来衡量吗？
Or you think, like, in an objective way--
或者你以客观的方式思考——
In an objective way, I honestly don't see where there was any abuse at all.
客观地说，我根本看不出哪里有虐待行为。
Because part of the reason I'm talking to you, and not her, is because she says she's cut off contact with you.
因为我和你而不是她说话的部分原因是因为她说她已经与你断绝了联系。
And I wonder, what do you think her reason is for that?
我想知道，你认为她这样做的原因是什么？
I just got an email yesterday from her, so that's not true.
我昨天刚收到她的一封电子邮件，所以这不是真的。
Saying that she's glad I was going to do this interview, and she wished me good luck.
她说她很高兴我能接受这次采访，并祝我好运。
She said that she sent you an email maybe six or eight months ago, saying, my sister and I, we aren't going to talk to you guys.
她说她大概六八个月前给你发了一封电子邮件，说，我和我姐姐，我们不会和你们说话。
No, I've gotten two or three emails from them.
不，我收到了他们发来的两三封电子邮件。
Talk to them every Christmas.
每年圣诞节都和他们交谈。
So she's not feeling any form of animosity or problem, so we're fine.
所以她没有感受到任何形式的敌意或问题，所以我们很好。
We're all doing fine.
我们都很好。
When you've been through so much abuse as a child, you have to think about, in the back of your mind, too, that you have these things in you that you have to keep tabs on.
当你小时候经历过如此多的虐待时，你也必须在内心深处想到，你身上有这些东西，你必须密切关注。
And you have to keep it under control.
你必须控制住它。
It's very easy for that to be transferred, I think, to your children when they become adults.
我认为，当你的孩子成年后，这种观念很容易转移到他们身上。
But Larry was the exact opposite.
但拉里却恰恰相反。
I mean, after all the abuse, he became one of the better people in the world.
我的意思是，在经历了所有的虐待之后，他成为了世界上更好的人之一。
But that was after-- I mean, he murdered his parents.
但那是在——我的意思是，他谋杀了他的父母之后。
That's right.
这是正确的。
That's right.
这是正确的。
He sure did.
他确实做到了。
So how could you say he's one of the better people in the world.
那么你怎么能说他是世界上最好的人之一呢？
OK.
好的。
Glenn One of the better people in the world.
格伦 世界上最好的人之一。
Certainly someone who goes and kills anyone is not a good person, in my book.
当然，在我看来，杀人的人不是好人。
But at the same time, everyone in that case resolved to the fact that something was wrong.
但与此同时，该案中的每个人都承认出了问题。
You get to a point, as a child, where you feel like you have nowhere to turn, and by the grace of God, I got through it.
当你还是个孩子的时候，你会觉得自己无处可去，但靠着上帝的恩典，我度过了难关。
And by the grace of God, so did Larry.
感谢上帝的恩典，拉里也做到了。
Obviously, this is really hard for me to listen to.
显然，这对我来说真的很难听。
This abuse happened.
这种虐待发生了。
To me.
大部头书。
My sister and a childhood friend who witnessed my dad's behavior both corroborate my memories of him.
我的姐姐和一位目睹了我父亲行为的儿时朋友都证实了我对他的记忆。
My sister remembers the same instances of physical abuse.
我姐姐还记得同样的身体虐待事件。
I did send my dad two brief emails to set up this interview with Brian and one right before the interview to decline a check he and my mom had sent me for Christmas.
我确实给我父亲发了两封简短的电子邮件，以安排与布莱恩的这次采访，并在采访前发送了一封邮件，拒绝了他和我妈妈为圣诞节寄给我的支票。
But we did not talk over Christmas.
但我们在圣诞节期间没有交谈。
We are not in any kind of regular contact, and we are not, in my or my sister's opinion, doing fine.
我们没有任何形式的定期联系，而且在我或我姐姐看来，我们做得并不好。
What's perhaps most horrifying is this.
最可怕的也许是这个。
So many of the comments my dad makes about what it's like to see your mother be hurt every day, or feeling you have nowhere to turn, I mean, word for word could have easily come out of my own mouth.
我父亲所说的很多关于每天看到你母亲受伤的感觉，或者感觉你无处可去的评论，我的意思是，逐字逐句地很容易出自我自己的嘴。
There's a story my father says he doesn't remember from when I was 10.
我父亲说他不记得我十岁时的一个故事。
He was beating and choking my mother in the bathroom, and I couldn't take it anymore.
他在浴室里殴打和掐死我母亲，我再也受不了了。
I grabbed a pair of barber sisters, ran up behind him, and literally stabbed him in the back between his shoulder blades.
我抓住了一对理发师姐妹，跑到他身后，在他的肩胛骨之间刺伤了他的背部。
The scissors just stuck there, embedded in the muscle.
剪刀就卡在那里，嵌入肌肉中。
He threw me off him, and at least for the time being, he left my mom alone.
他把我从他身边甩开，至少暂时，他让我妈妈一个人呆着。
It wasn't a life-threatening wound or anything.
这不是危及生命的伤口或其他什么。
I wasn't thinking that I wanted to kill him.
我没想到我想杀他。
But I do remember the intense fear I felt for my mom, and that I just wanted him to stop.
但我确实记得我对妈妈感到强烈的恐惧，我只是想让他停下来。
And I was willing to stab him to make that happen.
我愿意刺伤他以实现这一目标。
My dad's conversation with Brian did help shed light on some things for me.
我父亲与布莱恩的谈话确实帮助我了解了一些事情。
I always thought my dad's reason for adopting Larry, even if it was a subconscious one, was a misguided attempt to start over with a new family member, to right the wrongs he had done us.
我一直认为我父亲收养拉里的原因，即使是潜意识的，也是一种误导性的尝试，试图与一个新的家庭成员重新开始，以纠正他对我们所做的错误。
But after hearing the interview, I think my dad's motivation to adopt Larry was much more about his relationship to his dad than it ever was about his relationship to me, my sister, or my mother.
但听完采访后，我认为我父亲收养拉里的动机更多的是他与父亲的关系，而不是他与我、我姐姐或我母亲的关系。
A few months ago, I got an email from my father that I'm still not sure what to make of.
几个月前，我收到父亲发来的一封电子邮件，我仍然不知道该怎么理解。
Sometimes when I read it, it breaks my heart, and other times, it makes me incredibly angry.
有时当我读到它时，它让我心碎，有时，它让我非常愤怒。
It feels manipulative.
感觉很受操纵。
He sent it to both my sister and me.
他把它寄给了我和我妹妹。
"My girls," it started.
“我的女儿们，”它开始了。
"I want to tell you a story that I hope you will both think about hard and maybe take to heart." He went on to describe, in really frightening detail, the same story he mentioned to Brian about the day he and his brother broke some eggs and his father beat them for it.
“我想告诉你们一个故事，希望你们都能认真思考，并牢记在心。”他接着以非常可怕的细节描述了他向布莱恩提到的同一个故事，那天他和他的兄弟打破了一些鸡蛋，他的父亲为此殴打了他们。
Then he got to his point.
然后他就说到了他的重点。
"Even though I have not forgotten all the things he did to us, I overcame my bitterness of him and soon became to even love him.
“尽管我没有忘记他对我们所做的一切，但我克服了对他的怨恨，很快就爱上了他。
I had sworn I would never see my father again after I grew up, but was able to carry on and be decent when he was around.
我发誓长大后我再也见不到父亲了，但只要他在身边，我就能继续做人，做个正派的人。
Being able to leave the bitterness behind was my greatest accomplishment, even though I do not have many.
能够抛开痛苦是我最大的成就，尽管我拥有的不多。
I'm here to tell you that things that I did were bad to you both.
我来这里是想告诉你们，我所做的事情对你们俩都不好。
I regret and feel guilty all the time for being a bad father."
我一直为自己是一个坏父亲而感到遗憾和内疚。”
He said that at the least, we should visit with Mom.
他说至少我们应该去看望妈妈。
"Miss you both very much," he wrote.
“非常想念你们俩，”他写道。
"Love, Dad."
“爱你，爸爸。”
Amity Bitzel.
阿米蒂·比泽尔。
She's writing a memoir, for which she's looking for a publisher.
她正在写一本回忆录，正在寻找出版商。
[MUSIC - "SOMEDAY NEVER COMES" BY CREEDENCE CLEARWATER REVIVAL]
[音乐 - CREDENCE CLEARWATER REVIVAL 创作的“Someday Never Comes”]
Our program was produced today by Jonathan Menjivar, with Alex Blumberg, Ben Calhoun, Sarah Koenig, Miki Meek, Brian Reed, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
我们今天的节目由 Jonathan Menjivar 与 Alex Blumberg、Ben Calhoun、Sarah Koenig、Miki Meek、Brian Reed、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 共同制作。
Our senior producer's Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人朱莉·斯奈德。
Lauren Markham produced our story about the twin principals at the opening of the show.
劳伦·马卡姆（Lauren Markham）在节目开场时制作了关于双胞胎校长的故事。
Production help today from Phia Bennin.
今天由菲亚·贝宁 (Phia Bennin) 提供制作帮助。
Seth Lind is our operations director.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的运营总监。
Emily Condon's our production manager.
艾米丽·康登是我们的生产经理。
Elise Bergerson's our administrative assistant.
埃莉斯·伯格森是我们的行政助理。
Music help from Damien Graef and Rob Gettis.
达米安·格雷夫 (Damien Graef) 和罗布·盖蒂斯 (Rob Gettis) 提供音乐帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
[致谢] 我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
WBEZ management oversight for our program by our boss Mr. Torey Malatia, who has this coverage of the Senate hearings this week with Hillary Clinton.
我们的老板托里·马拉蒂亚 (Torey Malatia) 先生对我们的项目进行 WBEZ 管理监督，他本周与希拉里·克林顿 (Hillary Clinton) 一起报道了参议院听证会。
Shut up.
住口。
No, you shut up.
不，你闭嘴。
No, you're ugly.
不，你很丑。
No, you're ugly.
不，你很丑。
OK.
好的。
Can we do another?
我们可以再做一个吗？
WBEZ management oversight for our show by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia, who explains why he has decided that he's going to end his very, very short affair with Lady Gaga.
WBEZ 的老板 Torey Malatia 先生对我们的节目进行了管理监督，他解释了为什么他决定结束与 Lady Gaga 非常非常短暂的恋情。
I gotta walk home with her.
我得和她一起走回家。
I gotta see her when I wake up, when I go to sleep.
当我醒来时，当我睡觉时，我必须见到她。
And I don't like her.
而且我不喜欢她。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life .
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。