484: Doppelgängers - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #484 | June 6, 2025 484: Doppelgängers Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 484 集 | 2025 年 6 月 6 日 484：分身 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass 1, 2, 3.
序言：序言艾拉·格拉斯 1、2、3。
1, 2, 3.
1、2、3。
Fred Armisen (IMITATING IRA GLASS) 1, 2, 3.
Fred Armisen（模仿 IRA 玻璃）1、2、3。
1 2, 3.
1 2, 3.
Sometimes, things aren't what you think they are, and people aren't who you think they are.
有时候，事情并不是你想象的那样，人也不是你想象的那样。
That's what we're talking about today.
这就是我们今天要讨论的内容。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
That is really weird, to hear you do that.
听到你这么做真的很奇怪。
[LAUGHTER] I'm here.
[笑声]我在这儿。
This is actually Ira Glass.
这实际上是艾拉·格拉斯。
I'm sitting here with Fred Armisen.
我和弗雷德·阿米森一起坐在这里。
Hi.
你好。
Ira Glass Hi-- who's probably best known for Saturday Night Live, but also Portlandia.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass Hi）——她最出名的作品可能是《周六夜现场》，还有《波特兰迪亚》。
And I knew that you had worked up an imitation of me because we just happened to meet once.
我知道你在模仿我，因为我们只是碰巧见过一次。
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass And then you said something like, but you're not famous enough, so I have no use for this on television.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：然后你说了类似的话，但你还不够出名，所以我在电视上没用这个。
[LAUGHS] Fred Armisen I might have said that exactly.
[笑] Fred Armisen 我可能确实这么说过。
Yeah, and-- yeah.
是的，还有——是的。
Fred Armisen Well, after that, this writer at SNL, Christine Nangle and I, we figured out a way to turn it into a sketch that we could put on Weekend Update, the news segment on Saturday Night Live.
Fred Armisen 嗯，在那之后，SNL 的作家 Christine Nangle 和我，我们找到了一种方法，将其变成一个草图，我们可以将其放在周末更新，周六夜现场的新闻片段上。
By chance, NPR came up in the news.
一次偶然的机会，NPR 出现在新闻中。
I think this was around the time that they were talking about cutting some of the funding.
我认为这大约是他们在谈论削减部分资金的时候。
Here to comment on NPR'S troubles, the host of This American Life, Ira Glass.
在这里评论一下 NPR 的麻烦，《美国生活》的主持人艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass)。
[LAUGHTER, APPLAUSE] Fred Armisen So I came out, and I'm wearing your glasses and a wig to look like you.
[笑声，掌声] Fred Armisen 所以我出来了，我戴着你的眼镜和假发，看起来像你。
[LAUGHTER] I'm Ira Glass.
[笑声] 我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Act 1.
第 1 幕。
I was thinking the other day--
那天我在想——
And the joke being that you were interviewing people at "Weekend Update."
笑话是你在“周末更新”采访人们。
Ira, look, you can't bring other people on as your guests.
艾拉，听着，你不能邀请其他人来做你的客人。
You're my guest.
你是我的客人。
It's just, your CEO just resigned.
只是，你们的首席执行官刚刚辞职了。
And now the Republican budget proposes cutting your funding completely.
现在共和党预算提议完全削减你的资金。
I mean, aren't you afraid that NPR might start laying people off?
我的意思是，你不担心 NPR 可能会开始裁员吗？
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) Act 2.
（模仿 IRA 玻璃）第 2 条。
Seth Meyers Oh, boy.
塞思·迈耶斯 噢，孩子。
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) Laid off?
（模仿 IRA GLASS） 被解雇？
No guts?
没有胆量吗？
So this never made it to air.
所以这从未播出。
This is just the recording from the dress rehearsal.
这只是彩排的录音。
Why didn't it make it to air?
为什么没有播出？
Who knows?
谁知道？
It might have been a little unwieldy.
它可能有点笨拙。
So if people want to watch that, the entire video, we have a link at our website.
因此，如果人们想观看整个视频，我们的网站上有一个链接。
Anyway, so we invited you here today because the theme of this week's show is doppelgangers.
无论如何，所以我们今天邀请您来到这里，因为本周节目的主题是分身。
The show is about doppelgangers, about people who are doubles or lookalikes.
该节目是关于分身的，关于替身或相似的人。
And I realized that because you had worked up this imitation, you could co-host as my doppelganger in this room, in this studio, during this broadcast.
我意识到，因为你已经完成了这个模仿，所以你可以在这个房间、这个演播室、在这个广播期间作为我的分身共同主持。
This is an audience who will actually know who you're playing.
这是一群真正知道你在扮演谁的观众。
So if you're ready, that's what we'll do.
所以，如果您准备好了，那就是我们要做的。
Sure.
当然。
And another way to look at it is, you're co-hosting with me, that this is my show.
另一种看待它的方式是，你和我共同主持，这是我的节目。
Exactly.
确切地。
Fred Armisen (IMITATING IRA GLASS) And that's what we're talking about today.
Fred Armisen（模仿 IRA GLASS）这就是我们今天讨论的内容。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
[LAUGHTER] Ira Glass All right, so let's go to this copy.
[笑声] Ira Glass 好吧，让我们来看这个副本。
So we have some copy for today.
所以我们今天有一些副本。
OK.
好的。
That's this one.
就是这个。
And let's go to there.
让我们去那里吧。
And let's just-- why don't you start?
让我们——为什么不开始呢？
OK.
好的。
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) Today on our show-- today on our show.
（模仿 IRA 玻璃）今天在我们的节目中——今天在我们的节目中。
Let me think.
让我想想。
I'm just thinking about how I would do it.
我只是在想我该怎么做。
I would go, today on our show--
今天在我们的节目中我会去——
Oh, yes.
哦，是的。
That's better.
这样更好。
OK.
好的。
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) Today on our show--
（模仿 IRA 玻璃）今天在我们的节目中——
We have two stories of supposed doppelgangers.
我们有两个关于所谓的二重身的故事。
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) --we have two stories of supposed doppelgangers.
（模仿 IRA GLASS）——我们有两个关于所谓的分身的故事。
And we try to figure out the truth of them.
我们试图找出它们的真相。
Do I sound that nasal?
我听起来有那么鼻音吗？
Fred Armisen Maybe.
弗莱德·阿米森 也许吧。
And we try to figure out the truth of them.
我们试图找出它们的真相。
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) And we try to figure out the truth of them.
（模仿 IRA GLASS）我们试图找出它们的真相。
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) The other, two animals who never meet.
（模仿 IRA GLASS） 另一种是两只从未见过面的动物。
I think you should do the next part because it's so-- do you want to hear me do it first?
我认为你应该做下一部分，因为它是如此——你想先听我做吗？
Or do you just want to do it?
或者你只是想这样做？
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.
这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) Distributed by Public Radio International.
（模仿 IRA 玻璃）由国际公共广播电台发行。
[LAUGHTER] Ira Glass I feel like a Muppet.
[笑声] Ira Glass 我感觉自己像个布偶。
Why does it make me feel like a Muppet, Fred?
为什么这让我感觉自己像个布偶，弗雷德？
[LAUGHTER] Seriously, why--
[笑声]说真的，为什么——
I think you could be a Muppet.
我认为你可能是一个布偶。
I don't know why they don't have a Muppet of you.
我不知道为什么他们没有你的布偶。
From WBEZ Chicago, It's This American Life--
来自 WBEZ 芝加哥，这就是美国生活——
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life--
（模仿 IRA GLASS）来自 WBEZ 芝加哥，这就是美国生活——
--distributed by Public Radio International.
——由国际公共广播电台发行。
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) --distributed by Public Radio International.
（模仿 IRA GLASS）——由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
And I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Fred Armisen (IMITATING IRA GLASS) And I'm Ira Glass.
Fred Armisen（模仿 IRA GLASS） 我是 Ira Glass。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) OK, Act 1, Dead Ringer.
（模仿 IRA GLASS）好的，第一幕，Dead Ringer。
We start today with a story of physical resemblance, not of a person, but of a food.
今天我们从一个关于外表相似的故事开始，不是一个人，而是一种食物。
A quick warning that if you're squeamish or averse to graphic images of food, there's going to be some of that in this report.
快速警告您，如果您对食物的图形图像感到厌恶或厌恶，本报告中将会包含其中的一些内容。
Here's Ben Calhoun.
这是本·卡尔霍恩。
I first heard about this whole thing in an email.
我第一次听说这整件事是在一封电子邮件中。
It came from a listener, a woman named Emily Rancer.
它来自一位听众，一位名叫艾米丽·兰瑟的女士。
She works in the food industry.
她在食品行业工作。
And the letter Emily wrote was about a story she'd heard from a farmer.
艾米丽写的信是关于她从一个农民那里听到的一个故事。
The farmer who told her this is apparently a person of some standing in the pork industry.
告诉她这件事的养殖户显然是猪肉行业里有一定地位的人。
And admittedly, I don't know the first thing about the pork industry, but he's in charge of a pork-producing operation that spans several states.
诚然，我对猪肉行业一无所知，但他负责一个横跨几个州的猪肉生产企业。
The story he told Emily went something like this, a while ago, he was visiting a pork processing plant in Oklahoma.
他给艾米丽讲的故事是这样的，不久前，他正在参观俄克拉荷马州的一家猪肉加工厂。
He's walking through it with a friend, a guy who managed the plant, actually.
他正在和一个朋友一起走过，实际上是一个管理工厂的人。
And at some point, he saw boxes stacked on the floor, labeled "artificial calamari."
在某个时候，他看到地板上堆放着盒子，上面贴着“人造鱿鱼”的标签。
He stood there, wondering for a second.
他站在那里，疑惑了一会儿。
And then he asked his friend, what's artificial calamari?
然后他问他的朋友，什么是人造鱿鱼？
Bung, his friend replied.
邦，他的朋友回答道。
It's hog rectum, rectum that would be sliced into rings, deep fried, and boom, there you have it.
这是猪直肠，直肠会被切成圈，油炸，然后繁荣，就是这样。
OK, if I can, let me just narrate for you what this would mean.
好吧，如果可以的话，让我为您讲述一下这意味着什么。
It would mean that in restaurants everywhere, right this second, people are squeezing lemon wedges over crispy, golden rings, and dipping the rings into marinara sauce, and they're eating hog rectum.
这意味着在世界各地的餐馆里，就在此时此刻，人们正在把柠檬片挤在脆皮的金环上，然后将环浸入番茄酱中，然后他们就吃着猪直肠。
Now, they're chewing, satisfied, and deeply clueless.
现在，他们正在咀嚼，满足，却一无所知。
It's payback.
这是回报。
It's payback for our blissful ignorance about where our food comes from and how it gets to us.
这是对我们对食物从何而来以及如何到达我们的幸福无知的回报。
It's amazing.
太棒了。
And it's perfect.
而且它是完美的。
But it also seems like it couldn't possibly be true.
但这似乎也不可能是真的。
So I called up the farmer to talk to him personally.
于是我打电话给那位农民，亲自与他交谈。
I wanted to hear it firsthand.
我想亲耳听到。
And the farmer confirmed the story-- the entire thing, the boxes, the bung.
农夫证实了这个故事——整个事情，盒子，塞子。
But when I asked him to go on the record, to tape an interview, and gave his name here, on the radio, he very politely declined, which seems suspicious, right?
但当我要求他记录下来，录制一次采访，并在广播中说出他的名字时，他非常礼貌地拒绝了，这似乎很可疑，对吧？
When I asked him why, he said he'd spoken with his girlfriend about it, and she suggested that he should think about the words that he wanted to come up when somebody Googled his name.
当我问他为什么时，他说他已经和他的女朋友谈过这件事了，她建议他应该想想当有人用谷歌搜索他的名字时他想说什么。
This was all fine, though, because he referred me to the real expert, the guy who gave him the tour of the hog processing plant.
不过，这一切都很好，因为他向我推荐了真正的专家，那个带他参观生猪加工厂的人。
And that guy, he agreed to talk.
而那个家伙，他同意谈话。
Yeah, this is Ron Meek, meat processing plant manager, presently residing in Mountain View, Missouri, where he runs an organic beef processing plant there called Beyond Organic.
是的，我是罗恩·米克 (Ron Meek)，肉类加工厂经理，目前居住在密苏里州山景城，在那里经营一家名为 Beyond Organic 的有机牛肉加工厂。
If the story really were true, Ron would have been the guy who explained to the farmer what was in those boxes.
如果这个故事属实，罗恩就会向农夫解释那些盒子里装的是什么。
The boxes are 10-pound boxes, and they were all-- they cut off so much of it, maybe a 10- or 12-inch piece of the bung.
这些盒子都是 10 磅重的盒子，而且它们都被切掉了很多，也许是 10 或 12 英寸的塞子。
And you know what it looks like?
你知道它是什么样子吗？
This looks like, after they're cleaned and washed and everything, they just look like a bunch of big noodles in a box, is all it looks like.
看起来，在它们被清理、清洗和所有东西之后，它们看起来就像盒子里的一堆大面条，就是它的样子。
But specifically, the labels that said "imitation calamari," where did you personally see the "imitation calamari?"
但具体来说，标签上写着“仿鱿鱼”，您个人在哪里看到过“仿鱿鱼”？
Oh, I've seen a label say that.
哦，我看到一个标签是这么说的。
That's all I was told by the people that told me that.
这就是那些告诉我这些的人告诉我的。
The people I work for, they told me that.
我为之工作的人是这样告诉我的。
Oh, the people that you worked for told you that it was used for imitation calamari?
哦，你工作的人告诉你它是用来仿制鱿鱼的？
Right.
正确的。
Ben Calhoun And is there any possibility that you think that when they were explaining this to you, that they were kind of having you on a little bit?
本·卡尔霍恩（Ben Calhoun）：你有没有可能认为，当他们向你解释这一点时，他们是在欺骗你？
Well, I wouldn't think that.
嗯，我不这么认为。
But it could be 5%.
但也可能是5%。
It could have been that.
可能就是这样。
But I seriously doubt it.
但我严重怀疑这一点。
OK, just to give a little better picture, a pork bung-- and "bung" is the actual industry term for it-- is long and floppy and ugly.
好吧，为了让大家看得更清楚，猪肉塞子——“塞子”是它的实际行业术语——又长又软又丑。
At one end, it widens out into this more bulbous shape, like a pink, wrinkly pear.
在一端，它变宽成球状的形状，就像一个粉红色的、有皱纹的梨子。
That's the rectum.
那是直肠。
At the other end, it narrows into a soft, pinkish-white tube.
在另一端，它变窄成一个柔软的粉白色管子。
I know, it sounds gross.
我知道，这听起来很恶心。
But also, consider, we are a nation that eats more than a billion pounds of sausage every year, billion with a B.
但也要考虑一下，我们是一个每年消耗超过 10 亿磅香肠的国家，其中 10 亿是 B 香肠。
Maybe you like liverwurst or capicola or summer sausage with a natural casing.
也许您喜欢肝香肠或卡皮科拉香肠或带有天然肠衣的夏季香肠。
Then you, like me, have eaten bung-- stuffed, dried bung.
然后你，像我一样，吃了塞子——塞满的干塞子。
A lot of brats and Italian sausages are stuffed in intestine.
肠子里塞满了很多臭小子和意大利香肠。
So if you eat those regularly, you pretty much live up the street from bung.
因此，如果你经常吃这些东西，你几乎就住在街上。
So why does the idea of a fried ring of bung just feel grosser?
那么，为什么炸一圈塞子的想法感觉更恶心呢？
Well, partly, it's the visual, right?
嗯，部分原因是视觉，对吧？
When you see that little ring of calamari, you don't want to picture it in the context of a pig's behind.
当你看到那一小圈鱿鱼时，你不会想把它想象成猪的屁股。
Then there are all the people who don't eat pork, period.
然后还有所有不吃猪肉的人。
Ron said there's also another reason.
罗恩说还有一个原因。
Just because of the word "bung," probably.
可能只是因为“bung”这个词。
I mean, people don't just want to jump up and say, man, I'm going to eat me some bung tonight.
我的意思是，人们不只是想跳起来说，伙计，今晚我要吃点东西。
I mean, that's just the way it is.
我的意思是，事情就是这样。
But the big question, the question you've been thinking about since we got on this topic, have you or I eaten imitation calamari, bung dressed up as seafood?
但最大的问题，自从我们讨论这个话题以来，你一直在思考的问题是，你或我吃过仿鱿鱼吗？
Well, Ron didn't know.
嗯，罗恩不知道。
He said his plant exported a lot of their bung to Asia.
他说他的工厂将大量的瓶盖出口到亚洲。
But he just didn't know much about whatever happened after it left the door.
但他只是不太清楚它走出门后发生的事情。
So he could only speculate.
所以他只能猜测。
Anything, he said, would be a wild guess.
他说，任何事情都只是疯狂的猜测。
So I turned to people who would know.
所以我求助于那些知道的人。
Is pork bung being falsely peddled as calamari?
猪内脏是否被冒充鱿鱼兜售？
I called the USDA.
我打电话给美国农业部。
The USDA's Food Inspection Service issued the following statement to me.
美国农业部食品检验局向我发表了以下声明。
"Products we inspect, including those derived from pork, must be accurately labeled and cannot purport to be a product of another species."
“我们检查的产品，包括来自猪肉的产品，必须准确贴上标签，并且不能声称是其他物种的产品。”
So it's against the rules.
所以这是违反规则的。
But people break the rules.
但人们违反规则。
A recent study of seafood by a group called Oceana used DNA testing, and found that all across the country, fish is regularly being labeled as other species in restaurants and in grocery stores, escolar sold as white tuna, Pacific rockfish being fraudulently sold as snapper.
最近，Oceana 组织对海鲜进行了 DNA 检测，结果发现，在全国范围内，餐馆和杂货店里的鱼经常被贴上其他物种的标签，埃斯科拉鱼被贴上白金枪鱼的标签，太平洋石斑鱼被冒充为鲷鱼出售。
In Miami, more than 30% of fish was being sold as something it wasn't.
在迈阿密，超过 30% 的鱼被当作假货出售。
In New York, the number was 39%, Boston, 48%, Los Angeles-- are you ready?
在纽约，这个数字是 39%，波士顿，48%，洛杉矶——你准备好了吗？
55%, 55.
55%, 55.
That means if you order fish in LA, you are most likely eating a species you did not order.
这意味着如果您在洛杉矶点鱼，您很可能吃的是您没有点的鱼。
In other words, seafood substitution is rampant in this country.
换句话说，海鲜替代品在这个国家很猖獗。
And depending on where you live, from what I can tell, you can get cleaned hog bung for about half the price of clean squid.
据我所知，根据你住的地方，你可以花大约一半的干净鱿鱼价格买到干净的猪粪。
So there would be money in it if you could pull off the switch.
所以如果你能拉开开关，里面就会有钱。
And as best as I can tell, were you to do this, you would not be caught.
据我所知，如果你这样做，你就不会被抓住。
A lawyer who's familiar with this area of law and regulation told me, once bung leaves the plant, there's a variety of agencies and entities that would be in play-- USDA, FDA, state, and local government.
一位熟悉这一领域法律和法规的律师告诉我，一旦邦克离开工厂，各种机构和实体都会发挥作用——美国农业部、美国食品药品监督管理局、州和地方政府。
But ultimately, he said, the regulation we have is not designed to catch an offense like this.
但他说，归根结底，我们的法规并不是为了抓获此类违法行为而设计的。
It's aimed mostly at sanitation and food safety.
它主要针对卫生和食品安全。
So bottom line, the lawyer said, if somebody wanted to do it, chances are, they'd get away with it.
律师说，最重要的是，如果有人想这么做，他们很可能会侥幸逃脱。
So is someone out there doing this?
那么有人在这样做吗？
Well, for weeks, I looked for an answer.
好吧，几个星期以来，我一直在寻找答案。
The USDA says they've never heard of anyone trying to pass pork bung as squid or any other species.
美国农业部表示，他们从未听说过有人试图将猪肉内脏冒充鱿鱼或任何其他物种。
[PHONE RINGING] I contacted the National Restaurant Association, the National Pork Producers Council, the National Pork Board--
[电话铃声]我联系了国家餐馆协会、国家猪肉生产者委员会、国家猪肉委员会——
Hello?
你好？
Ben Calhoun --a squid fisherman's association--
本·卡尔霍恩——鱿鱼渔民协会——
Good afternoon.
下午好。
Ben Calhoun --Cisco and other big food and restaurant supply companies.
Ben Calhoun——思科和其他大型食品和餐厅供应公司。
It's hog what?
这是猪什么？
Ben Calhoun Bung, hog rectum.
本·卡尔霍恩·邦（Ben Calhoun Bung），猪直肠。
Oh, my gosh.
哦，天哪。
Ben Calhoun That's the executive director of the California Wet Fish Producers Association.
本·卡尔霍恩 这是加州湿鱼生产者协会的执行董事。
But the answer was pretty much always the same, nobody had heard of it.
但答案几乎总是一样，没有人听说过。
But almost to a person, they added that that doesn't mean it's not happening somewhere.
但几乎对一个人来说，他们补充说，这并不意味着它不会在某个地方发生。
Ron Meeks said a lot of the bung from his plant got exported.
罗恩·米克斯说，他工厂的很多瓶盖都出口了。
So my next call was to the US Meat Export Federation, which confirmed that, quote, "the main destinations for pork bungs are China, Hong Kong, Japan, Taiwan, Korea, and the Philippines.
因此，我的下一个电话是给美国肉类出口联合会，该联合会证实，“猪肉内脏的主要目的地是中国、香港、日本、台湾、韩国和菲律宾。
They are mainly used for processing.
它们主要用于加工。
But we are aware of some uses in soups and certain entrees.
但我们知道它在汤和某些主菜中的一些用途。
We are not aware of them being used as a substitute for calamari, but it's not impossible," unquote.
我们不知道它们被用作鱿鱼的替代品，但这并非不可能，”引述道。
So over the past few weeks, I've called Asian food suppliers, people who live in, work in, and eat in those countries.
因此，在过去的几周里，我给亚洲食品供应商、在这些国家生活、工作和饮食的人们打电话。
I talked to a woman named Corinne Trang, who's written an overarching compendium of Asian cuisines.
我和一位名叫 Corinne Trang 的女士交谈过，她写了一本亚洲美食的总体纲要。
I've talked to academics at NYU and Haverford and USC and Harvard.
我曾与纽约大学、哈弗福德分校、南加州大学和哈佛大学的学者进行过交谈。
I've reached out to chefs who know Asian food.
我已经联系了了解亚洲美食的厨师。
The answer, again, always similar-- never heard of it, but it's possible, partly because bung doesn't have such a complicated reputation in Asia, where it has to be some kind of secret ingredient, like it does here.
答案总是相似的——从未听说过，但有可能，部分原因是桶塞在亚洲没有如此复杂的声誉，在那里它必须是某种秘密成分，就像在这里一样。
On the other hand, though, people pointed out that in Korea and Japan, you can't get more than a few hours from the ocean.
但另一方面，人们指出，在韩国和日本，离开海洋的时间最多只能几个小时。
Squid is cheap and it's readily available.
鱿鱼价格便宜，而且很容易买到。
You'd only eat a substitute if you wanted the substitute.
如果你想要替代品，你只会吃替代品。
Generally, people said, if the switch was happening somewhere, they'd guess China.
一般来说，人们说，如果这种转变发生在某个地方，他们会猜测是中国。
Eventually, I found my way to this guy, who I was really excited about, someone who I thought might have my answer.
最终，我找到了这个让我非常兴奋的人，我认为他可能会给我答案。
He was, get this, an anthropologist who lived and worked in China for 40 years, where he studied food, and specifically, meat.
他是一位人类学家，在中国生活和工作了 40 年，研究食物，特别是肉类。
When I talked to him, though, he made two points.
不过，当我与他交谈时，他提出了两点。
Point one, my question about this happening in Asia was racist.
第一，我对亚洲发生的这种情况的疑问是种族主义的。
Even just asking the question was racist because it plays on ignorant stereotypes about other cultures eating things that we perceive as weird.
即使只是问这个问题也是种族主义，因为它利用了人们对其他文化吃我们认为奇怪的东西的无知刻板印象。
Point two was that Ron Meek, my guy from the pig plant, Ron was pulling my leg.
第二点是罗恩·米克，我养猪厂的人，罗恩在开我的玩笑。
And he was getting away with it because I was a dumbass.
他却侥幸逃脱了惩罚，因为我是个笨蛋。
He told me more than once that I should, quote, "find something worthwhile to do with myself." When we ended our conversation, he told me that he was refusing to even dignify what I was doing by appearing on the radio or by letting me use his name.
他不止一次告诉我，我应该“为自己找到一些值得做的事情”。当我们结束谈话时，他告诉我，他甚至拒绝出现在广播中或让我使用他的名字来维护我所做的事情。
OK, so to respond to his points one by one, first, am I racist against Asians?
好的，那么一一回应他的观点，第一，我对亚洲人有种族歧视吗？
Well, I'm half Chinese.
嗯，我是半个中国人。
My mom's Chinese.
我妈妈是中国人。
Like anyone, I've had the occasional issue with my mother.
和其他人一样，我偶尔也会与母亲发生争执。
But this has not been one of them.
但这不是其中之一。
We grew up eating chicken feet and fish eyes.
我们是吃鸡爪和鱼眼长大的。
And I think it's possible to raise the question of who eats what without being racist.
我认为可以在不带有种族主义的情况下提出谁吃什么的问题。
His second point, though, that Ron Meek was pulling my leg, I mean, the guy was still an expert on meat in China.
不过，他的第二点是罗恩·米克在开玩笑，我的意思是，这家伙仍然是中国的肉类专家。
So I called Ron back.
所以我给罗恩回了电话。
All right, shoot me some questions, dude.
好吧，请问我一些问题，伙计。
I told him the whole thing, about the anthropologist, about what he said.
我告诉了他整个事情，关于人类学家，关于他所说的话。
I guess, I mean, the only thing I want to ask you is, are you messing with me?
我想，我的意思是，我唯一想问你的是，你在惹我吗？
No. I mean, that was what my boss told me.
不，我的意思是，那是我老板告诉我的。
I was like, what the hell do we save these hog bungs for?
我当时想，我们到底要留这些猪屁股做什么？
He says they use them for imitation squids and stuff like that.
他说他们用它们来模仿鱿鱼之类的东西。
So in your heart of hearts, you believe it?
那么在你的内心深处，你相信吗？
Yeah, man, I mean, I ain't going to sit here and tell you things that, they're just bull-[BLEEP], and play with you, when I'm just going off of my knowledge of saving hog bungs.
是的，伙计，我的意思是，我不会坐在这里告诉你这些事情，他们只是胡说八道——[哔]，然后和你一起玩，当我刚刚摆脱我拯救猪塞的知识时。
I mean, you got to think about how far advanced slaughterhouses are, especially big ones, that want to make every penny count.
我的意思是，你必须考虑先进的屠宰场有多先进，尤其是大型屠宰场，它们希望让每一分钱都发挥作用。
The one I worked at, you bring the pigs in, you stun them, then you stick them, and the blood goes off into a trough, and it goes down.
我工作过的那家，你把猪带进来，打晕它们，然后把它们刺死，血就会流进一个槽里，然后就下降了。
And it's vacuum sucked out of there with a vacuum, into centrifuges.
它被真空吸出，进入离心机。
And they separate the blood from the blood plasma.
他们将血液与血浆分离。
And they save that.
他们保存了它。
I mean, they save the lungs.
我的意思是，它们可以拯救肺部。
They save the pancreas.
他们拯救了胰腺。
They save the spleens.
他们拯救脾脏。
They save the hearts.
他们拯救人心。
The only thing left, by the time it's all said and done, is a skull and jawbones.
当这一切都说完了之后，剩下的唯一的东西就是头骨和颌骨。
I mean, you can be an anthropologist all you want.
我的意思是，你可以随心所欲地成为一名人类学家。
And if you don't work in a processing plant, you don't know [BLEEP].
如果您不在加工厂工作，您就不知道[BLEEP]。
I contacted the plant Ron worked at, where this happened.
我联系了罗恩工作的工厂，发生了这件事。
And for what it's worth, they backed him up.
不管怎样，他们都支持他。
They said their sales team had heard of people eating pork bung as imitation calamari, though they hadn't witnessed it firsthand or heard it directly from a customer.
他们说，他们的销售团队听说过人们把猪内脏当作仿鱿鱼吃，尽管他们没有亲眼目睹或直接从顾客那里听到过。
It was all hearsay.
这都是道听途说。
So at the end of all this, I still had no proof that anyone was passing off bung as squid.
所以到最后，我仍然没有证据表明有人冒充鱿鱼。
And then I realized I hadn't asked the more basic question here.
然后我意识到我没有在这里问更基本的问题。
Could bung do it?
邦格能做到吗？
Could it pass as calamari?
它能被当作鱿鱼吗？
And that question led me to a guy named Eddie Lin.
这个问题让我找到了一个叫艾迪·林的人。
Eddie Lin has eaten a lot of bung, at least a hundred times, he said, probably more.
林艾迪已经吃过很多次了，至少一百次，他说，可能更多。
Eddie has an extreme food blog called "Deep-End Dining" and an online TV show called Kamikaze Kitchen.
艾迪有一个名为“Deep-End Dining”的极限美食博客和一个名为“Kamikaze Kitchen”的在线电视节目。
I can definitely see a resemblance, texture-wise.
我绝对可以看到纹理方面的相似之处。
Oh, really?
哦真的吗？
Eddie Lin Yeah, yeah, definitely.
林艾迪 是的，是的，绝对是。
There's a rubbery texture, sort of like a calamari.
有一种橡胶质感，有点像鱿鱼。
Huh.
呵呵。
Eddie Lin But you would really have to get rid of that, needless to say, foul flavor and odor from the bung.
埃迪·林（Eddie Lin）但是，不用说，你真的必须除去桶塞中的恶臭和气味。
Somehow, I hadn't figured that the bung, once it was scrubbed and rinsed and cleaned with steam, that it would still taste like, you know.
不知何故，我没有想到，一旦用蒸汽擦洗、冲洗和清洁了塞子，它的味道仍然会像，你知道的。
So yeah, you would definitely have to do some major, major blanching-- or brining.
所以，是的，你肯定需要做一些非常非常大的漂白——或者盐水腌制。
I meant brining.
我的意思是腌制。
Uh-huh, to just to try and leach those flavors out of there?
呃，只是为了尝试把那些味道从那里滤出来？
Yeah, I mean, those flavors have been marinating in that pig for quite a while.
是的，我的意思是，那些味道已经在那头猪身上腌制了很长一段时间了。
So--
所以——
[LAUGHS] Ben Calhoun He thought it wouldn't be easy, but he thought it could be done.
[笑] Ben Calhoun 他认为这并不容易，但他认为这是可以做到的。
And there was only one way to tell if he was right, to cook up some bung and eat it.
只有一种方法可以判断他的说法是否正确，那就是煮一些木塞然后吃掉。
And if the taste was overwhelming and the texture was all wrong, well, then I'd have my answer.
如果味道太强烈并且质地完全错误，那么我就会得到我的答案。
And at this point, I'll be frank, I started to root for the bung.
坦率地说，在这一点上，我开始支持这个塞子。
I realized that this is not a story about fraud.
我意识到这不是一个关于欺诈的故事。
It's not a bait-and-switch story.
这不是一个诱饵和开关的故事。
It's a story about possibility.
这是一个关于可能性的故事。
It's classic rags to riches.
这是典型的白手起家。
It's about whether a cut of meat, perhaps the lowliest, most malignable cut of meat in America, might somehow, in at least one place on the planet, be dipped in the redemptive oils of the great culinary equalizer that is the deep fryer.
这是关于一块肉，也许是美国最低级、最可恶的一块肉，是否可以以某种方式，在地球上至少一个地方，浸入伟大的烹饪均衡器——油炸锅的救赎油中。
And it might emerge transformed, no longer an outcast, but instead, hair combed, clean-shaven, in a suit and tie.
它可能会脱胎换骨，不再是一个被遗弃的人，而是头发梳得整整齐齐，胡子刮得干干净净，穿着西装，打着领带。
It might walk reborn onto a table.
它可能会重生到桌子上。
Through sheer force of resemblance, it might be loved, its history, years of drudgery and hardship, doing the body's least glamorous job, all washed away.
纯粹通过相似的力量，它可能会被爱，它的历史、多年的苦差事、做着身体最不光彩的工作，都被冲走了。
No, this is not the story of a con man like Bernie Madoff.
不，这不是伯尼·麦道夫这样的骗子的故事。
It's Pretty Woman.
原来是《漂亮女人》
This is whether Good Will Hunting finds his way out of Southie.
这就是善意狩猎能否从南西找到出路。
It's whether Charlie, on that very last chocolate bar, really can get a golden ticket.
问题是查理在最后一块巧克力上是否真的能得到一张金券。
To do all this, to try it, I called my little sister, Lauren.
为了做到这一切，为了尝试，我打电话给我的妹妹劳伦。
She's a chef, trained abroad at The Cordon Bleu, worked at Michelin-star restaurants.
她是一名厨师，曾在蓝带国际学院接受过国外培训，曾在米其林星级餐厅工作过。
She's that kind of chef.
她就是这样的厨师。
Soon, we were standing in front of a deli case.
很快，我们就站在了一个熟食柜前。
And I don't know why I feel hesitant about saying this because I don't think it's racist.
我不知道为什么我对这么说感到犹豫，因为我不认为这是种族主义。
It was in Chinatown.
那是在唐人街。
Pork bung, there it is.
猪肉塞，就在那里。
Look at it, it looks like a sphincter.
你看，它看起来像一个括约肌。
Wait, what do you mean, it looks like a--
等等，你什么意思，它看起来像——
This one up here, that's cut up, it looks like a butt hole.
这里的这个，被切开了，看起来像屁股上的洞。
And Lauren had theories about pulling it off-- brining, soaking, maybe braising.
劳伦有一些关于如何做到这一点的理论——腌制、浸泡，也许还有炖。
But once we got to the store, once she'd seen the meat up close, her doubts got worse.
但当我们到达商店后，当她近距离看到肉时，她的疑虑变得更加严重。
I think, after looking at it, I don't think it's going to--
我想，看完之后，我不认为它会——
No. It's too thick.
不行，太厚了。
There's too much muscle tissue.
肌肉组织太多了。
It's too thick.
太厚了。
You'd have to use a ring cutter to make it the right thickness.
您必须使用环刀才能使其达到合适的厚度。
What do you think those bits are, in there?
你觉得里面那些东西是什么？
Oh, you know, poo.
哦，你知道，便便。
Ben Calhoun My sister said Eddie Lin was definitely right.
本·卡尔霍恩 我姐姐说艾迪·林绝对是对的。
The giveaway would be the stubborn flavor of poo.
赠品是粪便的顽固味道。
That flavor, she said, it's tough to get rid of.
她说，那种味道很难摆脱。
The Earth revolves around the sun.
地球绕着太阳转。
And bung will always taste like [BLEEP].
而且塞子的味道总是像[BLEEP]。
But there was no backing out now.
但现在已经没有退路了。
We would eat.
我们会吃饭。
We would eat our way to the truth.
我们会通过吃东西来找到真相。
And so what if it didn't look good?
如果看起来不好看怎么办？
So what if bung was destined to taste like bung?
那么，如果塞子注定尝起来像塞子又怎么样呢？
You know who it didn't look good for, and he still put up a fight?
你知道谁看起来不好看，但他仍然坚持战斗吗？
Rocky Balboa, that's who.
洛基·巴尔博亚，就是这样的人。
This was it, the bung versus calamari, squid versus tail, The Rumble in the Bunghole.
就是这样，桶盖与鱿鱼，鱿鱼与尾巴，桶盖里的隆隆声。
We set up the tasting at a restaurant, in the lull between lunch and dinner.
我们在午餐和晚餐之间的间歇时间在一家餐厅安排了品尝活动。
In the dining room, there was just a few tables eating.
餐厅里，只有几张桌子在吃饭。
And all around the restaurant, the morning shift was wrapping up as we walked in with a red cooler filled with squid and hog bung.
当我们带着装满鱿鱼和猪粪的红色冷藏箱走进餐厅时，早班已经结束了。
So originally, I'd recruited some half a dozen people from our office at This American Life as tasters.
所以最初，我从《This American Life》的办公室招募了六名左右的人作为品酒师。
The final group the day of the tasting included, from the office, Seth Lind and Brian Reed.
品酒会当天的最后一组成员包括来自办公室的 Seth Lind 和 Brian Reed。
So when's the last time that you guys had calamari?
那么你们最后一次吃鱿鱼是什么时候？
And what about you, Brian?
那么你呢，布莱恩？
Brian Reed I haven't had it since we got this tip about the possible--
布莱恩·里德 (Brian Reed) 自从我们收到有关可能的消息以来，我还没有收到过它——
Yeah, no, totally.
是的，不，完全如此。
And to be honest, I ate calamari pretty regular.
说实话，我很经常吃鱿鱼。
I'm a regular eater of calamari-- not all the time, but it's something I'll routinely order if it's on an appetizer menu.
我经常吃鱿鱼——不是一直吃，但如果开胃菜菜单上有鱿鱼，我会经常点。
Yeah.
是的。
Brian Reed I mean, I grew up in an Italian-American family, where my grandparents were also born here.
布莱恩·里德（Brian Reed） 我的意思是，我在一个意大利裔美国人家庭长大，我的祖父母也出生在这里。
I feel like calamari is just big among that sector of people, at Olive Garden and stuff like that.
我觉得鱿鱼在橄榄园之类的人群中很重要。
So I just grew up eating it.
所以我就是吃着它长大的。
I hadn't realized this.
我没有意识到这一点。
For weeks, Brian had been avoiding calamari.
几周来，布莱恩一直在避免吃鱿鱼。
He'd been living in fear.
他一直生活在恐惧之中。
Brian, if you find out that they're indiscernible from each other, will you ever eat calamari again?
布莱恩，如果你发现他们彼此难以辨认，你还会再吃鱿鱼吗？
No, I don't think so.
不，我不这么认为。
That's why I want to do this, just to know, going forward.
这就是为什么我想做这件事，只是为了知道，继续前进。
Back in the kitchen, things were looking bad.
回到厨房，事情看起来很糟糕。
I'd given up on the idea that bung would taste the same as calamari.
我已经放弃了桶塞尝起来和鱿鱼一样的想法。
Now I'd hung my hopes on the idea that at least visually, it would look the same.
现在我寄希望于至少在视觉上看起来是一样的。
But as my sister dropped the flowered rings of hog bung into the fryer, they had turned into this kind of big, ugly, tangled wad, nothing like the jiggly squid rings.
但当我姐姐把花环的猪塞扔进油炸锅时，它们变成了这种又大又丑、纠结的一团，一点也不像摇摇晃晃的鱿鱼圈。
But then, as if by a miracle, they changed.
但后来，奇迹般地，他们发生了变化。
My sister gave a shake to the fry basket, and as they sizzled, the bung just seemed to gracefully snap into rings.
我姐姐摇了摇炸篮，当炸篮发出嘶嘶声时，塞子似乎优雅地卡入环中。
Oh, look at that, though.
哦，看看那个。
It's like magic.
这就像魔法一样。
They're turning into circles.
他们正在变成圆圈。
Yeah.
是的。
So I'm going to pull these first ones.
所以我要先拉这些。
Soon, we were face to face with the plate.
很快，我们就和盘子面对面了。
On it, there were two piles of rings, similar in size, similar in shape.
上面，有两堆戒指，大小相似，形状相似。
The bung had more of a frizzly edge to it, kind of like a fancy onion ring.
瓶塞的边缘更多的是卷曲的，有点像一个漂亮的洋葱圈。
The calamari was smoother.
鱿鱼更光滑。
OK, so-- I asked Seth and Brian to just give a first impression.
好的，那么——我请 Seth 和 Brian 留下第一印象。
I have a guess.
我有一个猜测。
But it's one of those things where you're pretty sure, but you could totally be wrong.
但这是你非常确定的事情之一，但你可能完全错了。
God, I thought I would be more sure.
天哪，我以为我会更加确定。
I don't-- I'm waffling now.
我不——我现在胡言乱语。
My gut reaction is that this was calamari and this was not.
我的直觉反应是，这是鱿鱼，而这不是。
OK, before you eat it, see, I totally thought this was calamari, the other one.
好吧，在你吃之前，看，我完全以为这是另一个鱿鱼。
OK.
好的。
Brian Reed So I'm going to do it at the same time.
Brian Reed 所以我会同时做这件事。
Ben Calhoun OK, so just to be clear what's going on here, Seth has chosen one pile of rings which he thinks is calamari.
本·卡尔霍恩：好吧，为了弄清楚这里发生了什么，塞斯选择了一堆他认为是鱿鱼的戒指。
Brian has done the same thing, only Brian is choosing the other stack of fried rings.
布莱恩也做了同样的事情，只是布莱恩选择了另一堆炸环。
OK, so we're about to bite into these simultaneously, which we both think this is calamari.
好的，所以我们要同时咬这些，我们都认为这是鱿鱼。
Ben Calhoun So in actuality, Seth is right.
本·卡尔霍恩 所以事实上，赛斯是对的。
Seth is eating calamari.
赛斯正在吃鱿鱼。
The chewing you hear from Brian's mic, that is the sound of a calamari lover eating fried pig rectum.
你从布莱恩的麦克风中听到的咀嚼声，是鱿鱼爱好者吃炸猪直肠的声音。
I should also add there were actually two varieties of bung on the plate that day, one bung that my sister had blanched over and over to mellow any organ-y, fecal flavor, and then untreated, straight-up bung, unfiltered, unchained, uncut, 100% pure bung.
我还应该补充一点，那天盘子里实际上有两种塞子，一种是我姐姐一遍又一遍地焯过的塞子，以软化任何有机的、粪便的味道，然后是未经处理的、直立的塞子，未过滤的、未束缚的、未切割的、100%纯的塞子。
That one, the latter one, bung at its purest, at the height of its bunginess, this is what Brian was eating.
那个，后一个，最纯粹的，最松软的，这就是布莱恩正在吃的东西。
As they ate, Seth still looked confident.
他们吃饭时，赛斯看上去仍然充满自信。
I think I was right.
我想我是对的。
Brian Reed (LAUGHING) I think I was right.
布莱恩·里德（笑）：我想我是对的。
Really?
真的吗？
Brian Reed Yeah.
布莱恩·里德 是的。
I totally think I was right.
我完全认为我是对的。
Game, set, match, bung.
比赛、比赛、比赛、比赛。
And it wasn't just Brian.
不仅仅是布莱恩。
I thought so.
我是这么想的。
Damien, who manages the restaurant, he also thought it was passable.
餐厅的经营者达米恩（Damien）也认为还过得去。
A few of us picked up a faint flavor of pork rind, but if you weren't really looking for it, you wouldn't notice it was there.
我们中的一些人闻到了淡淡的猪皮味，但如果你不是认真寻找它，你不会注意到它的存在。
One of the restaurant staff, a guy named Ethan Vanburen, had the simplest, clearest explanation.
餐厅的一位工作人员，名叫伊桑·范布伦（Ethan Vanburen），给出了最简单、最清晰的解释。
I think that when you slice something up really thin and deep fry it, it's going to taste like something that's been deep fried.
我认为当你把东西切成薄片然后油炸时，它的味道就会像油炸过的东西。
If a plate full of the bung came out, how many people do you think would even-- do you think you'd notice if you were in that setting?
如果一盘装满瓶塞的东西出来，你认为有多少人会——你认为如果你处于那种环境中，你会注意到吗？
I'd say top scenario is somebody says, this calamari tastes funny, and keeps eating it.
我想说最常见的情况是有人说，这个鱿鱼味道很奇怪，并且一直在吃它。
And as for Brian-- oh, Brian-- Brian was reeling a bit, trying to figure out just what this was going to mean for him.
至于布莱恩——哦，布莱恩——布莱恩有点晕眩，试图弄清楚这对他意味着什么。
I'm sure I've been fooled in the past.
我确信我过去被愚弄过。
I'm just, like, sure of it.
我只是确信这一点。
Wait, oh, you're thinking that you've been places in the past, and you've had bung?
等等，哦，你认为你过去去过那些地方，而且你经历过麻烦？
I just imagined seeing a plate with this food, that looks like this on it, sitting with my family, growing up.
我只是想象看到一个盘子里有这种食物，看起来像这样，和我的家人坐在一起长大。
We definitely have eaten something that tasted like this, and just thought it was calamari, for sure.
我们肯定吃过这样的东西，并且只是认为它是鱿鱼，当然。
Not only wasn't he sure if he'd ever eat calamari again, he didn't want to eat the calamari on the plate in front of him, calamari I guaranteed him, was real.
他不仅不确定自己是否还会再吃鱿鱼，而且他也不想吃面前盘子里的鱿鱼，我向他保证，鱿鱼是真的。
Just to repeat one last time, I have no proof that anyone, anywhere, has ever tried to pass off pork bung as calamari in a restaurant.
最后重复一遍，我没有证据表明任何地方的任何人曾经试图在餐馆里将猪肉桶冒充成鱿鱼。
All I know is, if you wanted to do it, it would be easy.
我只知道，如果你想做的话，那会很容易。
And I'm choosing to believe that it's happening somewhere, because at some point in working on this story, I stopped identifying with Brian and anyone who might feel ripped off or grossed out by getting imitation instead of the real thing.
我选择相信它发生在某个地方，因为在写这个故事的某个时刻，我不再认同布莱恩和任何可能因为得到模仿而不是真实的东西而感到被欺骗或恶心的人。
Now, I identify with the bung.
现在，我认同这个塞子。
I'd like to think that somewhere out there, right now, under a heat lamp, a platter is sitting.
我想现在就在外面的某个地方，在一盏热灯下，放着一个盘子。
It's warm, and it's full of promise and transformation and redemption.
它很温暖，充满希望、转变和救赎。
That's the world that I'll choose to live in for me, for you, for the bung.
这就是我选择为我、为你、为塞子而生活的世界。
For the bung in all of us.
对于我们所有人来说。
Ben Calhoun, he's one of the producers of our program.
本·卡尔霍恩，他是我们节目的制作人之一。
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) Ben Calhoun, he's one of the producers of our program.
（模仿 IRA GLASS）Ben Calhoun，他是我们节目的制作人之一。
Thanks to the restaurant Aurora, in Brooklyn, for letting us use their kitchen for our taste test.
感谢布鲁克林的 Aurora 餐厅让我们使用他们的厨房进行口味测试。
OK.
好的。
Fred Armisen (IMITATING IRA GLASS) OK, who is this?
Fred Armisen（模仿 IRA GLASS）好的，这是谁？
Wait, who am I?
等等，我是谁？
Well, coming up, Philadelphia and Afghanistan, doppelgangers?
好吧，接下来，费城和阿富汗，二重身？
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) That's in a minute.
（模仿 IRA GLASS） 一会儿就到了。
From Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续进行时，来自芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台。
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) So we're going to start act 2?
（模仿 IRA GLASS）所以我们要开始第二幕？
Start here.
从这里开始。
So we're coming back from the ID break.
所以我们从 ID 中断中回来了。
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) It's This American Life.
（模仿 IRA 玻璃）这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our show, of course, we choose a theme.
当然，我们的节目每周都会选择一个主题。
We bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
我们为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's show, doppelgangers, stories of things that have a double, an evil twin, or a not-so-evil twin.
今天的节目，分身，关于有一个替身、一个邪恶的双胞胎或一个不太邪恶的双胞胎的故事。
Oh, wait, I should just explain.
哦，等等，我应该解释一下。
Oh, right, so--
哦，对了，所以——
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) What?
（模仿 IRA 玻璃）什么？
Ira Glass That was just a note to myself.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 这只是给我自己的一个便条。
I should explain.
我应该解释一下。
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) No, that was a note to me.
（模仿 IRA GLASS）不，这是给我的一张纸条。
So this is why Fred is here.
这就是弗雷德来这里的原因。
Fred Armisen is co-hosting the show as me because it's a show about doubles and lookalikes.
弗雷德·阿米森（Fred Armisen）与我共同主持这个节目，因为这是一个关于双打和相似者的节目。
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) Right, but we're both creating the same person, in a sense.
（模仿 IRA GLASS）是的，但从某种意义上说，我们都在创造同一个人。
And that's what the fun is of--
这就是乐趣所在——
Oh, that was really good, the way you just did that.
哦，那真是太好了，你刚才这样做的方式。
I didn't have an end to that thought.
我的这个想法一直没有结束。
I just--
我只是——
You just knew that-- Fred Armisen I like when you do the little self-- the little discovery.
你只是知道——弗雷德·阿米森（Fred Armisen）我喜欢当你做小自我——小发现。
All right, well, we have arrived at Act 2 of our program, Act 2, In Country and City.
好吧，我们已经到了节目的第二幕，第二幕，《乡村与城市》。
So for decades now, the writer Alex Kotlowitz has been writing about the inner cities, and especially the toll of violence on young people.
因此，几十年来，作家亚历克斯·科特洛维茨（Alex Kotlowitz）一直在写有关内城的文章，尤其是暴力对年轻人造成的伤害。
He's probably best known for his book, There Are No Children Here.
他最出名的可能是他的书《这里没有孩子》。
He appears on our show from time to time.
他时不时出现在我们的节目中。
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) Recently, he heard about an unusual program at Drexel University in Philadelphia, where they're giving guys from inner city neighborhoods counseling for symptoms of PTSD.
（模仿 IRA GLASS）最近，他听说费城德雷塞尔大学有一个不寻常的项目，他们为来自内城区的人们提供有关 PTSD 症状的咨询。
And this interested Alex, because for a long time, he has wondered whether the violence that he was reporting on in Chicago and its effect on kids and adults was comparable to the effects of trauma that a person experiences at war.
这让亚历克斯很感兴趣，因为很长一段时间以来，他一直想知道他所报道的芝加哥暴力事件及其对儿童和成人的影响是否可以与一个人在战争中经历的创伤的影响相媲美。
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) So he knew, and we know, how strange that sounds, to compare being in Afghanistan or Iraq to working a street corner in Chicago or some other city.
（模仿 IRA GLASS）所以他知道，我们也知道，将在阿富汗或伊拉克与在芝加哥或其他城市的街角工作进行比较听起来是多么奇怪。
So Alex tried to see if it was really comparable by doing a pair of interviews.
因此，亚历克斯试图通过两次采访来看看它是否真的具有可比性。
He talked to this vet from Afghanistan and also a guy from Philadelphia, who's lived in some pretty bad neighborhoods his whole life.
他与一位来自阿富汗的兽医以及一位来自费城的人进行了交谈，后者一生都住在一些非常糟糕的社区。
Alex wanted to see if they were doubles of some kind for each other.
亚历克斯想看看他们是否是某种类型的替身。
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) One of these guys is 28, one is 30, and both of them are trying to make sense of what they experienced.
（模仿 IRA GLASS） 其中一位 28 岁，一位 30 岁，他们都在试图理解他们所经历的事情。
Here's Alex.
这是亚历克斯。
Here's the first of these two guys, Brandon Caro.
这是这两个人中的第一个，布兰登·卡罗。
Brandon spent a year in Afghanistan.
布兰登在阿富汗呆了一年。
His roughest time was the six months he spent in the eastern part of the country, near the Pakistani border.
他最艰难的时光是在该国东部靠近巴基斯坦边境的地方度过的六个月。
He was a Navy corpsman, a medic who worked with the Marines.
他是一名海军医护兵，一名与海军陆战队一起工作的军医。
As a teenager, yeah, I certainly lacked discipline.
是的，作为一个青少年，我确实缺乏纪律。
I had been thrown out of my house more times than I can remember.
我被赶出家门的次数多得我记不清了。
And I was 21 when I enlisted.
我入伍时才21岁。
And really, I enlisted because I had, up to that point, not finished college.
事实上，我参军是因为到目前为止我还没有完成大学学业。
And it didn't seem as though I was going to finish college any time soon.
而且我似乎不会很快完成大学学业。
Then there's Curtis Jefferson.
然后是柯蒂斯·杰斐逊。
He grew up in a rough neighborhood in North Philly, where he oversaw a small group of guys who sold drugs.
他在费城北部的一个贫困社区长大，在那里他监管着一小群贩毒者。
He made his first drug sale when he was still in high school.
当他还在读高中时，他就进行了第一次毒品销售。
I was 16.
那年我16岁。
My aunt gave me some money for school.
我姨妈给了我一些上学的钱。
And that point, I purchased some weed and some crack with that, never bought my clothes.
那时，我买了一些大麻和一些大麻，从来没有买过我的衣服。
After that, I sold all the drugs.
后来我把所有的药都卖掉了。
And I guess from there, that's where it started.
我想从那时起，这就是一切的开始。
I seen that money come in, and I wasn't asking nobody for no money.
我看到钱进来了，我不会向任何人要钱。
Especially with my aunt, I wasn't begging for from her pockets and all that.
尤其是对我姨妈来说，我不会向她的口袋里乞讨之类的。
So from there, it was all she wrote.
所以从那时起，这就是她写的全部。
OK, they're two completely different people who made very different choices in their lives.
好吧，他们是两个完全不同的人，在生活中做出了截然不同的选择。
But I spoke to each of them, looking for similarities in their experiences.
但我与他们每个人进行了交谈，寻找他们经历中的相似之处。
And honestly, there were more than I expected.
老实说，比我预期的要多。
Here's the first similarity.
这是第一个相似之处。
For Curtis on the street, and for Brandon in Afghanistan, they could never let their guard down.
对于街上的柯蒂斯和阿富汗的布兰登来说，他们永远不能放松警惕。
During his tour, Brandon was charged with training Afghan soldiers.
在访问期间，布兰登负责训练阿富汗士兵。
And in May 2007, he heard about Afghan soldiers who attacked their American trainers.
2007 年 5 月，他听说阿富汗士兵袭击了美国教练。
They had weapons around us all the time.
他们一直在我们周围携带武器。
On convoys, we would have to line him up in the morning and collect their cell phones because we couldn't trust them not to inform on us to Taliban fighters.
在车队中，我们必须在早上让他排队并收集他们的手机，因为我们不能相信他们不会向塔利班武装分子举报我们。
It was exhausting, trying to keep an eye on the Afghan soldiers and look out for IEDs or snipers.
试图监视阿富汗士兵并提防简易爆炸装置或狙击手，这让人筋疲力尽。
Because you're trying to focus on one thing, you're trying to get money, but the same thing, eventually, somebody's going to come up and test you.
因为你试图专注于一件事，你试图赚钱，但同样的事情，最终，有人会过来考验你。
Somebody's going to test you.
有人会考验你。
Somebody's going to rob you.
有人会抢劫你。
Somebody's going to send something to your boys, they're going to get robbed.
有人要寄东西给你的孩子们，他们就会被抢劫。
Somebody's going to send shots your way or something.
有人会向你发送镜头或其他什么。
It felt like a piano could fall on you at any time.
感觉就像一架钢琴随时可能掉下来砸到你身上。
That's what it felt like to be on patrol, and especially to be on patrol with the Afghans.
这就是巡逻的感觉，尤其是与阿富汗人一起巡逻的感觉。
Because when you're out there, you notice different things-- for one, people with their hands in their pockets.
因为当你在外面时，你会注意到不同的事情——其中之一是，人们把手插在口袋里。
You're looking for someone that doesn't look right, that doesn't feel right.
你正在寻找一个看起来不合适、感觉也不合适的人。
Another thing, people who've got hoodies on, especially black.
另一件事是，人们穿着连帽衫，尤其是黑色的。
There's a certain look, put the hoodie on their face, you can't even see their eyeballs.
有一种特定的神情，把连帽衫放在他们脸上，你甚至看不到他们的眼球。
Come on, it's daytime.
来吧，现在是白天。
I can't see your face.
我看不到你的脸。
Let me see your eyes or something.
让我看看你的眼睛什么的。
And I would watch the way they looked at me, If they would stare back at me, if they would smile at me.
我会观察他们看我的方式，如果他们会回看我，如果他们会对我微笑。
If a person always got to keep touching their side, you're not going in your pocket, you're touching something.
如果一个人总是要不断地触摸他的身体一侧，那么你就不是在口袋里，而是在触摸什么东西。
And I've been out there so long, I could tell if somebody's got a gun on them or not.
我已经在那里待了很长时间，我可以判断出有人是否带枪。
For some reason, it was always a white Toyota Camry that was packed with explosives and driven into a convoy, or driven into a checkpoint.
出于某种原因，总是一辆白色丰田凯美瑞装满炸药，驶入车队，或驶入检查站。
Grand Marquis, or what else?
是大侯爵还是什么？
Crown Victoria, that's a dope-boy car.
维多利亚皇冠，那是一辆很酷的车。
When I seen them cars when I was on the streets, it was either get ready, go for the straps, go to the guns, or get out of the way.
当我在街上看到这些汽车时，要么做好准备，去拿安全带，去拿枪，要么让路。
That might be the hop-out boys, come stick you up.
那可能是跳出来的男孩，来把你粘上来。
Here's something else they shared.
这是他们分享的其他内容。
They both saw people killed, and then had to figure out how to keep going.
他们都看到有人被杀，然后必须想办法继续前进。
The first fatality Brandon ever saw came when a convoy, which he was originally scheduled to be a part of, was hit.
布兰登目睹的第一起死亡事件发生在他原本计划参加的一个车队被击中时。
They brought the casualties into our base.
他们把伤员带进了我们的基地。
And when we swung open the two doors that opened up into the cab of the truck, I was looking at just a heap, a mass of flesh, and that gray, digital-pattern Army uniform.
当我们打开卡车驾驶室的两扇门时，我看到的只是一堆肉，还有那件灰色的数字图案军服。
But there was no form to what I was looking at.
但我所看到的东西并没有任何形式。
I knew that what I was looking at was human.
我知道我看到的是人类。
But I didn't know what position the body was in because it had been so badly damaged.
但我不知道尸体处于什么位置，因为它已经严重受损了。
And so we got into the cab and we started to put him into a bag.
于是我们进了出租车，开始把他装进袋子里。
And I tried not to look at his face.
我试着不看他的脸。
I remember thinking, don't look at his face, don't look at his face.
我记得我当时想，不要看他的脸，不要看他的脸。
But I had to, inevitably.
但我不得不这么做，这是不可避免的。
It was by far, the most intimate, goriest thing I've ever experienced in my life.
这是迄今为止我一生中经历过的最亲密、最血腥的事情。
My first time seeing somebody shot was my own mother.
我第一次看到有人被枪杀的是我自己的母亲。
I was five years old, going on six.
那年我五岁，马上就要六岁了。
We were living in the projects, Blumberg projects.
我们生活在布隆伯格项目中。
My mom, she just got her degree in nursing.
我妈妈，她刚刚获得护理学位。
She was a nurse, had a nice little job.
她是一名护士，有一份不错的小工作。
She was working to get us out of the projects.
她正在努力让我们退出这些项目。
Then one morning, she was going out to work, gave my mom a kiss on the lips, and she told my grandma, I'll see y'all later.
然后有一天早上，她要出去工作，在我妈妈的嘴唇上吻了一下，然后她告诉我奶奶，我一会儿见。
I'm going to work.
我要去工作了。
As soon as she went out to work, I just heard all this shooting.
她一出去工作，我就听到了枪声。
By that time, I knew what shooting was.
那个时候我就知道什么是射击了。
But there it was.
但它就在那里。
She just got caught up in a shootout.
她刚刚陷入了一场枪战。
Somebody knocked on the door.
有人敲门。
She told my grandma, she said, Barbara's laying on the ground.
她告诉我奶奶，她说，芭芭拉躺在地上。
All I know is my grandma was screaming and hollering.
我只知道我的奶奶正在尖叫、大喊大叫。
And she ran outside.
她跑了出去。
And there she was, right on the ground, just red blood, just nothing but blood.
她就在那里，就在地上，只有红色的血，除了血什么都没有。
Just looking at it her, I'm five years old, like, what's wrong with Mommy, Grandma?
只是看着她，我五岁了，就像，妈妈、奶奶怎么了？
What's wrong with her?
她怎么了？
My grandma's crying and screaming.
我奶奶一边哭一边尖叫。
She didn't even say nothing.
她甚至什么也没说。
She just keep telling me, go in the house, go in the house, go in the house.
她只是一直告诉我，进屋子，进屋子，进屋子。
I was angry a lot, every day, every day, because I thought about my mom, every day, every day, every day.
我很生气，每一天，每一天，因为我每天，每一天，每一天都在想我的妈妈。
I still think about her every day.
我仍然每天都想着她。
From that point on, it was very difficult for me to sleep, to focus.
从那时起，我就很难入睡，也很难集中注意力。
I didn't realize how much those things really had made an impact on me, but they did.
我没有意识到这些事情真正对我产生了多大的影响，但它们确实如此。
I seen a lot of people get shot.
我看到很多人被枪杀。
I seen people get shot by cops.
我见过有人被警察开枪打死。
And I seen best friends shoot each other.
我还看到最好的朋友互相开枪。
I seen all types of crazy stuff.
我见过各种疯狂的东西。
I don't know.
我不知道。
There was a convoy that went up to Naray, in which there was a sniper attack that killed my old sergeant and his sergeant.
有一个车队前往纳雷，其中发生了狙击手袭击，杀死了我的老中士和他的中士。
There was the rocket-propelled grenade attack on a tent, inside our FOB, followed up by machine-gun fire.
我们的FOB内的一个帐篷遭到火箭推进式手榴弹袭击，随后是机枪扫射。
[SIGHS] I could say I had seen a dozen.
[叹气]我可以说我见过十几个。
And for me to not even be like no cop or no doctor or nothing, that's a whole lot to see somebody killed and dead.
对我来说，甚至不像警察或医生或什么都没有，看到有人被杀和死亡已经是一件很了不起的事了。
That's a whole lot.
就这么多了。
This brings us to the third parallel, they buried their feelings.
这给我们带来了第三个相似之处，他们埋葬了自己的感情。
Well, after my mom got shot, I didn't get no counseling.
好吧，在我妈妈被枪杀后，我没有得到任何咨询。
I didn't get no counselor at all.
我根本没有得到任何辅导员。
And my aunt asked me, too.
我姨妈也问我。
My aunt gave me a decision.
阿姨给了我一个决定。
And she asked me one day.
有一天她问我。
I had to have been, like, 12.
我当时应该是12岁吧。
She was like, do you want to go to counseling?
她问，你想去咨询吗？
And I told her, no, for what?
我告诉她，不，为了什么？
I don't need to talk to nobody.
我不需要和任何人说话。
I was so much in denial.
我非常否认。
I think I can handle everything by myself, but I really couldn't.
我以为我一个人就能搞定一切，但我真的做不到。
I think at that point, I was probably still in denial.
我想那时我可能还在否认。
I knew that I was toting around a lot of emotional baggage.
我知道我背负着很多情感包袱。
As much as I wanted to talk to people about how I really felt, I also didn't want to talk about it at all.
尽管我很想与人们谈论我的真实感受，但我也根本不想谈论它。
The more I'd give it air, the more real it would be.
我给它的空气越多，它就越真实。
And I didn't want it to be real.
我不希望它是真的。
I just wanted it to be over.
我只是想让一切结束。
I can't show no weakness because, you know what I mean?
我不能表现出任何弱点，因为，你知道我的意思吗？
My homies need me out there.
我的兄弟们需要我出去。
And I've been doing that for years.
多年来我一直这样做。
It's to the point, I started getting adapted to it, like, [BLEEP].
关键是，我开始适应它，就像，[BLEEP]。
But at the same time, I was still scared.
但与此同时，我仍然感到害怕。
Don't nobody want to die like that.
没有人愿意这样死吧。
The fourth shared experience-- raw, unfiltered rage.
第四种共同经历——原始的、未经过滤的愤怒。
I was definitely looking for revenge for my mom.
我绝对是在为我妈妈报仇。
When I was about 10 years old, I told my aunt I was going to look for the people that killed my mom.
当我大约10岁的时候，我告诉姨妈我要寻找杀害我妈妈的人。
And I was going to go back down to the projects, and I was going to kill them.
我要回到项目上，我要取消它们。
I always thought like that.
我一直这么想。
I mean, the way I felt about the Afghans, I began to just hate that whole culture, entirely.
我的意思是，从我对阿富汗人的感觉来看，我开始完全讨厌整个文化。
I hated them.
我讨厌他们。
There was one time, we were driving on an extremely, extremely dangerous road.
有一次，我们行驶在一条极其非常危险的道路上。
And we had come very close to falling off the cliff, which would have killed us.
我们差一点就掉下悬崖，否则就会丧命。
And the truck to our front was a truck filled with Afghan soldiers.
我们前面的卡车是一辆满载阿富汗士兵的卡车。
And they were pointing and laughing at us for almost falling off.
他们指着我们笑我们差点摔倒。
And in that moment, more than any other moment, I wanted to open up on them and kill every one of them.
在那一刻，我比任何其他时刻都更想向他们敞开心扉，杀死他们每一个人。
I've realized how much anger and resentment I have, and how dangerous that is.
我已经意识到我有多少愤怒和怨恨，以及这是多么危险。
Man, I shot my sister's boyfriend.
老兄，我开枪打死了我姐姐的男朋友。
I mean, he-- I don't know, I think I had one of them moments.
我的意思是，他——我不知道，我想我也经历过这样的时刻之一。
It had to have been, because it just took one word, and it just set me off for no reason, just thinking about everything.
一定是这样，因为只用了一个词，就让我无缘无故地思考一切。
And I just shot him.
我刚刚开枪打死了他。
I felt some type of way.
我有某种感觉。
I made the situation deeper, and it wasn't.
我让情况变得更深了，但事实并非如此。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
It wasn't even that deep.
甚至没有那么深。
But I've been holding a lot of stuff in, because he was always trying to discipline me.
但我一直压抑着很多东西，因为他总是试图管教我。
That's what it was, I didn't like about it, how he always tried to discipline me.
事情就是这样，我不喜欢他总是试图管教我。
All my sisters are way older than me, they're 40, pushing 50.
我所有的姐妹都比我大很多，她们都40岁了，快50了。
See what I'm saying?
明白我在说什么吗？
I'm the youngest.
我是最小的。
And I'm the only boy.
而我是唯一的男孩。
So her boyfriends, they're just, oh, you need to stop getting the streets.
所以她的男朋友们只是，哦，你需要停止上街。
But it's just how he was saying it.
但他就是这么说的。
Don't raise your voice at me.
别对我提高声音。
He's talking about, yeah, I'm going to take you in the street and fight you and all this.
他说的是，是的，我要带你到街上去和你打架等等。
You're going to learn your lesson.
你会吸取教训的。
It just was the part where he was like, yeah, I'm going to knock you the [BLEEP] out.
这就是他说的那部分，是的，我要把你打晕。
And that just went in my head, like, what?
我的脑海里浮现出这样的想法：什么？
First thing I do is grab my gun and come around the corner.
我做的第一件事就是拿起枪，绕过拐角。
And he was outside, too.
他也在外面。
And I'm thinking the whole time, I hope he ain't really outside.
我一直在想，我希望他不是真的在外面。
So he thinks I'm going to fight him.
所以他认为我会和他打架。
I'm not fighting this man.
我不会和这个人战斗。
I'm going to kill him.
我要杀了他。
I didn't even give him a chance to put his hands up.
我什至没有给他举手的机会。
As soon as I got around there, he was just all in my face, and just backed up and shot him, shot him in the stomach.
我一到那里，他就冲着我的脸，然后向后退去，向他开枪，朝他的肚子开枪。
I thought I was going to kill him.
我以为我要杀了他。
I thought he was dead, though.
但我以为他已经死了。
I guess everything worked out in its ways.
我想一切都会按照它的方式进行。
He's ain't a person to tell-- he ain't tell.
他不是一个可以倾诉的人——他不会倾诉。
He still survived, so I don't know.
他还活着，所以我不知道。
Here's something I didn't expect with either of them.
这是我对他们两个都没有想到的事情。
The toughest times weren't when they were on the battlefield or in the streets.
最艰难的时刻不是在战场上或在街上的时候。
It was when things were quiet.
那是一切都安静下来的时候。
That's when they struggled the most.
那是他们最挣扎的时候。
The worst times, for me, were the times where we weren't out on patrol, because that's when I was alone with my thoughts.
对我来说，最糟糕的时候就是我们没有出去巡逻的时候，因为那时我独自思考。
And I would try to clear my head.
我会试着理清思绪。
It was impossible.
这是不可能的。
These thoughts would just appear.
这些想法就会出现。
I would worry.
我会担心。
I thought about what it would be like to be shot.
我想过被枪杀会是什么样子。
I might daydream, just look at my ceiling or something, watch TV, like, damn, just imagine bullets going, ripping through my body.
我可能会做白日梦，看看天花板什么的，看电视，就像，该死的，想象子弹穿过我的身体。
You know, mother-[BLEEP] just come out with a gun, just start shooting everything.
你知道，妈妈-[BLEEP] 拿着枪出来，开始射击一切。
And I'm getting hit.
我正在受到打击。
Everybody getting hit.
每个人都受到打击。
I would think what it would feel like to be blown up in an IED, to be pinned down, and have the vehicle set ablaze, and to burn alive, to be trapped in the truck because the doors were too heavy to cut through or to pull open.
我会想，被简易爆炸装置炸毁，被压住，车辆被点燃，然后被活活烧死，被困在卡车里，因为车门太重，无法切开或拉开，那会是什么感觉。
Seeing it like this, seeing it with my own eyes, just look, seeing blood, and me just falling to the ground, and is too late for the ambulance?
看到这样，亲眼看到，就看，看到血了，我就倒在地上了，救护车来不及了？
Would I still be alive when the ambulance come get me?
当救护车来接我时我还活着吗？
Or that crazy kind of stuff, like, when you sit and think about that stuff, that kind of stuff drives you crazy.
或者那种疯狂的东西，比如，当你坐下来思考那些东西时，那种东西会让你发疯。
For both, reality eventually caught up to their fears.
对于两人来说，现实最终赶上了他们的恐惧。
In the spring of 2006, Curtis told us he got caught in a shootout with rival drug dealers.
2006 年春天，柯蒂斯告诉我们，他在与敌对毒贩的枪战中被捕。
The first bullet, to his back, spun him around.
第一颗子弹射中他的背部，使他转了个圈。
He got hit four more times, in the stomach and in the arm.
他又被击中四次，分别击中腹部和手臂。
As a result, he walks doubled over, like an old man.
结果，他弯着腰走路，像个老人。
Because a permanent nerve damage, he falls a lot.
由于神经永久性损伤，他经常摔倒。
And when he's under stress or eats the wrong food, he has bleeding from his intestines.
当他承受压力或吃错食物时，他的肠道就会出血。
Brandon, too, was hurt in a rollover when his Humvee fell off a small cliff.
布兰登也在翻车中受伤，当时他的悍马车从小悬崖上掉了下来。
Brandon had been manning the turret, and fortunately, another soldier pulled him in just as the vehicle rolled.
布兰登一直在炮塔上操作，幸运的是，当车辆开动时，另一名士兵把他拉了进来。
He suffered three fractures of his vertebrae and two herniated disks, and the pain kept him up nights, even after he left Afghanistan.
他的三处椎骨骨折，两处椎间盘突出，疼痛让他彻夜难眠，即使在他离开阿富汗之后也是如此。
Both men were on a lot of medications after their injuries.
两人受伤后都服用了大量药物。
And our sixth similarity may not be so surprising-- they self-medicated.
我们的第六个相似之处可能并不那么令人惊讶——他们自我治疗。
I had started to drink again.
我又开始喝酒了。
And on the weekends, I would drink heavily.
周末的时候，我会喝很多酒。
It makes my body just feel a little better, like just a little basic, Mary Jane, that's all.
它让我的身体感觉好一点，就像一点基本的，玛丽珍，仅此而已。
Usually a Crown and Coke was my drink of choice.
通常我选择的饮料是皇冠可乐。
And I would probably drink at least 5, up to 8, 9, 10 in the night.
我晚上可能会喝至少 5 杯、最多 8 杯、9 杯、10 杯。
But sometimes, it do give me the opposite effect.
但有时，它确实会给我带来相反的效果。
When I was very, very drunk, I would start to cry because of how upset I was.
当我喝得很醉的时候，我会因为我的难过而开始哭泣。
Because, you know, when I smoke, it put me on a mellow.
因为，你知道，当我吸烟时，它让我变得醇厚。
Then, you know, you just start thinking.
然后，你知道，你就开始思考。
Then that's when all the thoughts just come, like, oh, what the hell they just come from?
然后所有的想法就会出现，比如，哦，它们到底来自哪里？
And I'd be like, oh, some thoughts I think sometimes, I don't want to think about.
我会说，哦，有时我想的一些想法，我不想去想。
Echo number seven, they lashed out at friends and family.
与第七点相呼应的是，他们猛烈抨击朋友和家人。
Curtis had night terrors, and would wake in the middle of the night thinking his girlfriend was someone who was trying to shoot him.
柯蒂斯有夜惊症，他会在半夜醒来，以为他的女朋友是想开枪射杀他的人。
He'd push her.
他会推她。
He'd hit her in the head.
他打了她的头。
He'd call her names.
他会直呼她的名字。
I just was like, dang, I know I'm hurting this girl.
我只是想，天哪，我知道我伤害了这个女孩。
I'm really putting my hands on her, like a man, putting marks on her arms.
我真的像个男人一样把手放在她身上，在她的手臂上留下痕迹。
And I said, I'm losing it.
我说，我正在失去它。
And I was like, shh.
我当时想，嘘。
Brandon had a difficult relationship with a girlfriend, too.
布兰登和女友的关系也很困难。
They'd get into huge arguments and she'd get scared.
他们会发生激烈的争吵，她会感到害怕。
One time, Brandon got so agitated, a friend intervened and tried to calm him down.
有一次，布兰登非常激动，一位朋友介入并试图让他平静下来。
Brandon punched him.
布兰登打了他一拳。
His girlfriend locked herself in her room and called the police.
他的女朋友把自己锁在房间里并报了警。
Police came.
警察来了。
And I was inside.
我在里面。
And the police rang the doorbell.
警察按响了门铃。
And I opened it up.
我打开了它。
And it was two cops, a guy and a girl cop.
那是两名警察，一名男警察和一名女警察。
And I asked the guy, is your weapon loaded?
我问那家伙，你的武器上膛了吗？
He said, why would you ask me something like that?
他说，你为什么要问我这样的问题？
I said, because I want you to shoot me in the head.
我说，因为我想让你朝我的头开枪。
I was just sitting in my bedroom.
我只是坐在我的卧室里。
And I had my gun under my bed, in a sneaker box.
我把枪放在床底下的运动鞋盒子里。
I had a 40 Mag, big, old cowboy gun.
我有一把 40 弹匣的又大又旧的牛仔枪。
And that's when my grandma caught the gun in my mouth.
就在那时，我奶奶把枪放在我嘴里。
Yeah, she just opened the door to make sure I was cool.
是的，她只是打开门以确保我冷静。
It just was one of them days.
这只是其中的一天。
She opened the door, and gun in my mouth, you know what I mean?
她打开门，把枪放在我嘴里，你知道我的意思吗？
She didn't know what to do.
她不知道该怎么办。
She didn't know to come closer or stay back.
她不知道该走近一点还是退后一步。
She didn't know what to do.
她不知道该怎么办。
So she looking at me, start whooping and crying.
所以她看着我，开始大喊大叫。
And she didn't want to come next to me.
而且她不想来到我身边。
And so she's just talking to me the whole time, like, come on, baby, it's all right, I love you.
所以她一直在跟我说话，就像，来吧，宝贝，没关系，我爱你。
You're my grandson.
你是我的孙子。
You know, your mom ain't leave you out here on the Earth for this.
你知道，你妈妈不会因此而把你留在地球上。
You blessed.
你有福了。
You just got shot five times.
你刚刚中了五枪。
Why are you?
为什么是你？
It's going to be all right.
一切都会好起来的。
We're going to get some help for you and everything.
我们将为您和所有事情提供帮助。
And I just took it out, decocked it, put it back in the box, and just sat there.
我只是把它拿出来，解开扳机，放回盒子里，然后就坐在那里。
And called my homie up, and bring some weed around the corner, and got high.
并打电话给我的朋友，在拐角处带了一些杂草，然后就兴奋起来了。
And that's how that went.
事情就是这样进行的。
Both Brandon and Curtis have gotten help.
布兰登和柯蒂斯都得到了帮助。
Brandon's in AA and went through a writing program for veterans at NYU.
布兰登是 AA 会员，并在纽约大学参加了退伍军人写作项目。
Curtis is receiving counseling through the program at Drexel that offers help to guys coming off the street.
柯蒂斯正在通过德雷塞尔大学的项目接受咨询，该项目为流浪汉提供帮助。
But finally, it's here where their stories diverge.
但最后，他们的故事在这里出现了分歧。
Brandon's tour ended, and he's now thousands of miles from the dangers of Afghanistan.
布兰登的旅程结束了，他现在距离阿富汗的危险还有数千英里。
Curtis still lives in his old neighborhood, where the danger's ongoing.
柯蒂斯仍然住在他原来的社区，那里的危险仍然存在。
When I get more money, I'm definitely moving.
当我赚到更多钱时，我肯定会搬家。
I'm going to move.
我要搬家了。
That's a priority I'm working on right now.
这是我现在正在努力的一个优先事项。
I'm out.
我出去了。
I'm going to live somewhere comfortable, that I know I can walk in the neighborhood, I could sit out there on my step all day, all night, if I want to.
我要住在一个舒适的地方，我知道我可以在附近散步，如果我愿意的话，我可以整天整夜坐在我的台阶上。
Not long ago, a guy was shot and killed down the block from where he lives.
不久前，一名男子在他居住的街区附近被枪杀。
And Curtis happened to see the body on the ground.
而柯蒂斯恰好看到了地上的尸体。
And I just was thinking about a lot of the-- I was paused.
我只是在想很多事情——我停了下来。
I just was like, yo, when he shot, like, damn, that boy was on the ground.
我只是想，哟，当他开枪时，就像，该死的，那个男孩倒在地上。
And that was me.
那就是我。
It's just, I'm living.
只是，我还活着。
Like, he died.
就像，他死了。
And I'm like, damn.
我就像，该死的。
And it just felt like I felt all them bullets all over again.
我感觉就像我再次感受到了所有的子弹。
Curtis worries that because of the way he walks, perpetually bent over, he looks weak and that people will target him, rob him, beat him up, shoot him, take revenge.
柯蒂斯担心，由于他走路时总是弯着腰，他看起来很虚弱，人们会瞄准他，抢劫他，殴打他，开枪射杀他，进行报复。
I wonder, for someone like Curtis, if it's really post-traumatic stress, since really, there's nothing post about it.
我想知道，对于像柯蒂斯这样的人来说，这是否真的是创伤后压力，因为实际上，没有任何关于它的帖子。
Brandon, meanwhile, says he doesn't talk to his friends or family about his anger and his nightmares, which he still has regularly.
与此同时，布兰登表示，他不会与朋友或家人谈论他的愤怒和噩梦，但他仍然经常做这些事情。
He tried counseling, but didn't like it.
他尝试过咨询，但不喜欢。
So he sought out other veterans who understand what he's been through.
因此，他寻找其他了解他经历的退伍军人。
And Curtis now attends group counseling with others who, like himself, were once running the streets.
柯蒂斯现在与其他像他一样曾经在街上奔跑的人一起参加团体咨询。
That's the final echo.
那是最后的回声。
They've both come to realize that they're not alone.
他们都意识到自己并不孤单。
Alex Kotlowitz.
亚历克斯·科特洛维茨。
Ira Glass His books and documentaries include, most recently, the film The Interrupters, which he wrote and co-produced, which is at iTunes, Netflix, Amazon, and on DVD.
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 他的书籍和纪录片包括最近由他编剧和联合制作的电影《中断者》(The Interrupters)，该片在 iTunes、Netflix、Amazon 和 DVD 上发布。
Yeah, let's do it.
是的，我们就这么做吧。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
God, you do this whole thing at the end of every show?
天哪，你在每场演出结束时都会做这件事吗？
Yeah.
是的。
OK.
好的。
Ready?
准备好？
Fred Armisen You've got to hire someone to do that.
Fred Armisen：你必须雇人来做这件事。
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) Well, our program was produced today by Miki Meek and myself--
（模仿 IRA GLASS）好吧，我们今天的节目是由 Miki Meek 和我自己制作的——
With Alex Blumberg, Ben Calhoun, Sarah Koenig, Jonathan Menjivar, Brian Reed, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
亚历克斯·布隆伯格、本·卡尔霍恩、莎拉·科尼格、乔纳森·门吉瓦、布莱恩·里德、罗宾·塞米恩、艾丽莎·希普和南希·厄普代克。
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) Our senior producer's Julie Snyder.
（模仿 IRA GLASS）我们的高级制片人朱莉·斯奈德。
Production help from Tarek Fouda and Phia Bennin.
Tarek Fouda 和 Phia Bennin 为制作提供帮助。
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) Seth Lind is our operations director.
（模仿 IRA GLASS）Seth Lind 是我们的运营总监。
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) Elise Bergerson's our administrative assistant.
（模仿 IRA GLASS）Elise Bergerson 是我们的行政助理。
Music help from Damien Graef and Rob Geddis.
Damien Graef 和 Rob Geddis 提供音乐帮助。
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) Special thanks today to Jack Chen, Marissa Gillette, Katie Conner.
（模仿 IRA GLASS）今天特别感谢 Jack Chen、Marissa Gillette、Katie Conner。
Mat Hannigan, Mike Reed, Chris Waldrup, Damien Graef, his kitchen crew, and everyone who ate the bung.
马特·汉尼根、迈克·里德、克里斯·沃尔德鲁普、达米安·格雷夫、他的厨房工作人员以及所有吃过桶塞的人。
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) Ted Corbin and Tony Thompson of the Healing Hurt People Program at Drexel University.
（模仿 IRA GLASS） 德雷塞尔大学治愈伤人项目的 Ted Corbin 和 Tony Thompson。
Nate Beaver, Amy Drozdowska.
内特·比弗，艾米·德罗兹多斯卡。
Fred Armisen (IMITATING IRA GLASS) Eleanora Monticella, Kevin Miller.
弗雷德·阿米森（模仿 IRA 玻璃）埃莉诺拉·蒙蒂塞拉、凯文·米勒。
Zachary Sussman at NYU-- (BOTH) and Michelle Harris.
纽约大学的扎卡里·萨斯曼（Zachary Sussman）（两者）和米歇尔·哈里斯（Michelle Harris）。
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) Our website, where for the first time ever, you can watch the videotape of the Saturday Night Live dress rehearsal of me doing Ira Glass.
（模仿 IRA GLASS）在我们的网站上，您第一次可以观看我在《周六夜现场》中表演 Ira Glass 的彩排录像带。
That address, thisamericanlife.org.
该地址是 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) WBEZ management oversight for our show by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia.
（模仿 IRA GLASS）我们的老板 Torey Malatia 先生对我们的演出进行 WBEZ 管理监督。
After a hard day at the radio station, he always declares on his way out the door--
在广播电台辛苦了一天之后，他总是在出门时宣布——
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Fred Armisen (IMITATING IRA GLASS) And I'm Ira Glass.
Fred Armisen（模仿 IRA GLASS） 我是 Ira Glass。
He's actually Fred Armisen, by the way.
顺便说一句，他实际上是弗莱德·阿米森。
Portlandia season 3, that's Friday nights?
波特兰迪亚第三季，那是星期五晚上？
On IFC.
关于国际金融公司。
Ira Glass IFC season 3, back next week with more stories of
Ira Glass IFC 第 3 季将于下周回归，带来更多故事
OK, I think we're done.
好吧，我想我们已经完成了。
And I think we should cut.
我认为我们应该削减。
(IMITATING IRA GLASS) I think we are, I think-- are we OK?
（模仿 IRA GLASS）我想我们，我想——我们还好吗？
I think we're OK.
我想我们还好。
Fred Armisen (IMITATING IRA GLASS) I'm not too worried about it.
Fred Armisen（模仿 IRA GLASS）我不太担心。
I think we got it.
我想我们明白了。
Fred Armisen (IMITATING IRA GLASS) I wouldn't worry about it.
Fred Armisen（模仿 IRA GLASS） 我不会担心这个。
Would you do me a favor?
你能帮我一个忙吗？
Frank What do you want now?
弗兰克 你现在想要什么？
Would you mind just taking it one more time?
你介意再去一次吗？
Wonderful.
精彩的。
Announcer PRI Public Radio International.
播音员 PRI 国际公共广播电台。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。