483: Self-Improvement Kick - This American Life

483：自强不息

483 · This American Life · 原文

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #483 | January 4, 2013 483: Self-Improvement Kick Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录分享此美国生活生活伙伴如何收听剧集推荐关于概述员工公告奖学金工作音乐在路上制作电台常见问题解答提交商品联系我们我们的其他节目商品关注我们生活伙伴订阅我们的时事通讯整集切换音频和文字记录同步文字记录 | 内容第 483 集 | January 4, 2013 483: Self-Improvement Kick Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue Ira Glass I spoke with Julia Lurie the day that she tried something new with her students.

She teaches English at an all-girls high school in South Korea, in the city of Gwangju.

她在韩国光州市的一所女子高中教英语。

I reached her on Skype.

我通过 Skype 联系到了她。

And she told me that ever since she arrived in South Korea, she'd been really surprised by a bunch of things at her school.

There's a full-length mirror and a scale on every single floor of the school in the main hallway.

学校每层楼的主走廊上都有一面全身镜和体重秤。

And do girls use them?

女孩们会使用它们吗？

Julia Lurie Yeah, they use them all the time.

朱莉娅·卢里是的，他们一直在使用它们。

A lot of them don't really think twice about it.

他们中的很多人并没有真正考虑过这一点。

And then I asked some of the girls about it, and they said, yeah, our principal wants them there because it's an all-girls high school, and he wants us to be skinny.

然后我问了一些女孩这个问题，她们说，是的，我们的校长希望她们在那里，因为这是一所女子高中，他希望我们变瘦。

And he made a joke that if we lose a certain amount of weight, then we can get a cafe.

他开玩笑说，如果我们减掉一定的体重，那么我们就可以去咖啡馆。

And my first response was like, OK, that's really messed up.

My second response was just, that's really mixed messages.

我的第二个回应是，这真是令人困惑的信息。

Plastic surgery is super, super common.

整容手术非常非常普遍。

Like, one in five women in Seoul have it.

比如，首尔五分之一的女性患有这种疾病。

A lot of my students want to get it after they finish their college entrance exams, as like a rewards of sorts.

我的很多学生都想在高考结束后得到它，就像某种奖励一样。

Is this plastic surgery to look more Western?

整容是为了看起来更西化吗？

Yeah, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

So the most common is the-- it's called double eyelid surgery.

所以最常见的是——它被称为双眼皮手术。

But it's basically to put a crease in your eyelids so it looks like more Western eyelids.

但它基本上是在你的眼睑上加一条折痕，这样它看起来更像西方眼睑。

Other common ones are cutting down your jaw bones so that you have more a V-shaped face as opposed to a circular face.

其他常见的方法是切除下颌骨，这样你就可以拥有 V 形脸而不是圆形脸。

In class and on the bus, young women carry these hand mirrors, Julia says, big hand mirrors, like the size of a small dinner plate.

And they're always pulling them out and checking themselves.

他们总是把它们拉出来并检查自己。

Julia says the pressure on them to look a certain way is worse than in the United States.

朱莉娅说，他们面临的压力比在美国更严重。

When you are applying for university or you're applying for a job here, you put a picture of yourself on your resume or your application.

当您申请大学或在这里申请工作时，您会将自己的照片放在简历或申请表中。

And it is sort of taken for granted that how you look will often go into the decision of if you get into that university or if you get that job.

人们理所当然地认为，你的外表往往会决定你是否能进入那所大学或是否能找到那份工作。

Really?

真的吗？

If you get into university, they'll decide based on how pretty you are?

如果你上了大学，他们会根据你的漂亮程度来决定？

Well, so I've had it explained to me as, if they have two equal candidates, like otherwise equal candidates, then the prettier person will get the job.

好吧，所以我已经向我解释过，如果他们有两个平等的候选人，就像其他平等的候选人一样，那么更漂亮的人会得到这份工作。

And her students just see this is as normal, like there's nothing weird or disturbing about that at all.

她的学生们认为这很正常，好像没有什么奇怪或令人不安的。

And so she wanted to talk to them about it, though she wanted to be careful how she did this.

所以她想和他们谈谈这件事，尽管她想小心自己的做法。

It would be easy to come off as condescending or preachy, or like, oh, this is so terrible.

这很容易给人一种居高临下或说教的感觉，或者就像，哦，这太可怕了。

And she didn't want to do that.

她不想那样做。

She just wanted them to know it's not like this everywhere.

她只是想让他们知道并非所有地方都是这样。

You could see all this differently.

你可能会以不同的方式看待这一切。

She recorded the class on her iPhone for us.

她用 iPhone 为我们录制了课程。

She started with the basics.

她从基础开始。

Not ugly.

不难看。

OK, so raise your hand.

好的，请举手。

Tell me, how does a beautiful woman look?

告诉我，美丽的女人是什么样子的？

I don't know if you could hear it, one of the girls said "me" when asked what a beautiful woman looks like.

不知道你有没有听到，当被问及美女是什么样子时，其中一个女孩说“我”。

So I got "thin," "tall," "V-shaped face." We had this funny moment where they didn't know the word for "breasts," so I was teaching them the word for "breast."

所以我变得“瘦”、“高”、“V形脸”。我们有一个有趣的时刻，他们不知道“乳房”这个词，所以我教他们“乳房”这个词。

[INAUDIBLE].

[听不清]。

No, breast.

不，乳房。

Students A breast.

学生A乳房。

OK, so-- Julia Lurie So I'm drawing one on the board.

好的，所以—— Julia Lurie 所以我在黑板上画了一个。

They talked about how these ideas of beauty are subjective, which definitely was not news to these students.

他们谈到这些关于美的想法是多么主观，这对这些学生来说绝对不是什么新闻。

And then Julia explained some of the things that just surprised her as an American living in South Korea.

然后朱莉娅解释了一些让她作为一个生活在韩国的美国人感到惊讶的事情。

That's how she put it.

她是这么说的。

She wanted to sound as neutral as possible.

她希望听起来尽可能中立。

This is just different than what she'd seen in America.

这与她在美国看到的完全不同。

We usually don't have scales and mirrors in high school hallways.

我们高中的走廊里通常没有秤和镜子。

We don't use photos on university and job applications the way Koreans do.

我们不像韩国人那样在大学和工作申请中使用照片。

Photo, OK.

照片，好吧。

In the USA, it is illegal, against the law--

在美国，这是非法的、违法的——

The law.

法律。

Julia Lurie --to discriminate, to say no to a person because of how they look.

朱莉娅·卢里（Julia Lurie）——歧视，因为一个人的外表而对其说不。

[INTERPOSING VOICES] Julia Lurie So I cannot say, [INAUDIBLE], you cannot work for me because you are ugly.

[插话] Julia Lurie 所以我不能说，[听不清]，你不能为我工作，因为你很丑。

[LAUGHTER] Ira Glass Technically, actually, this isn't true.

[笑声] Ira Glass 从技术上讲，实际上，这不是真的。

Ugly people are not a protected group under United States law.

根据美国法律，丑陋的人不属于受保护群体。

But you get her point.

但你明白她的意思。

Ugliness is not going to keep you out of Harvard.

丑陋不会阻止你进入哈佛。

Julia showed them a graph so they could see how much plastic surgery women in South Korea get compared to women in other countries.

朱莉娅向他们展示了一张图表，以便他们可以看到韩国女性与其他国家的女性相比接受了多少整形手术。

They are number one, more per capita than anywhere.

他们排名第一，人均人数比任何地方都多。

And they discussed all this.

他们讨论了这一切。

One girl said that that statistic made her feel ashamed as a South Korean.

一名女孩表示，这一统计数据让她作为韩国人感到羞耻。

And toward the end of the class, Julia asked them to write a couple sentences about self-improvement through plastic surgery, or scales in school hallways, or pictures on resumes, about why they were good or why they were bad.

课程快结束时，朱莉娅要求他们写几句话，关于通过整形手术、学校走廊里的体重秤或简历上的照片来自我完善，说明他们为什么优秀或为什么糟糕。

And about half of them thought good and half thought bad.

大约一半人认为好，一半人认为坏。

Two of Julia's students surprised her by saying that they'd already had plastic surgery themselves.

朱莉娅的两个学生让她惊讶的是，他们自己已经做过整形手术。

One of them wrote that it was good for her because it gave her confidence.

其中一位写道，这对她有好处，因为这给了她信心。

And the thing is, this is coming from my smartest class.

问题是，这是来自我最聪明的班级。

And it was kind of hard to hear-- like, for scales, for example.

而且有点难以听清——例如，音阶。

Now that they're in high school, they're basically like, I like being able to check my weight and seeing if I should eat less or not.

现在他们已经上高中了，他们基本上就像是，我喜欢检查我的体重，看看我是否应该少吃一点。

And they made the point-- and it's a really valid one-- that they want to make sure they're on track and not be stressing about it.

他们提出了这一点——这是一个非常有效的观点——他们希望确保自己走上正轨，而不是为此感到压力。

It's interesting how much of their argument is, I want to be a success, and this is the way to success.

有趣的是，他们的论点有多少是：我想成功，这就是成功之道。

Mm-hm.

嗯嗯。

It's very utilitarian.

这是非常实用的。

It just makes a lot of sense.

这很有意义。

I can imagine being here, growing up here, and just if this was one of the things that you had to do to succeed and do well, I'm sure I would consider it, too.

我可以想象在这里，在这里长大，如果这是你要成功并做得好的事情之一，我相信我也会考虑它。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I was just gonna say, I think I went into this lesson being like, OK, just really, really try to be objective, or seem objective, and walked out of it being like, OK, they have very legit reasons for doing these things.

我只是想说，我想我在上这堂课时会说，好吧，真的，真的努力做到客观，或者看起来客观，然后走出去时，我会说，好吧，他们做这些事情有非常合法的理由。

Did you learn anything today?

今天你学到什么了吗？

Students Yes.

学生是的。

What did you learn?

你学到了什么？

Student We are beautiful girls.

学生我们是美丽的女孩。

I think you are beautiful girls.

我认为你们是美丽的女孩。

I agree.

我同意。

Well, today on our radio show, it's the start of a new year.

好吧，今天在我们的广播节目中，这是新的一年的开始。

People are making resolutions.

人们正在做出决定。

We have stories of people's self-improvement schemes-- yes, starting with the defense of teenage girls getting plastic surgery.

我们有关于人们自我完善计划的故事——是的，从保护十几岁女孩接受整容手术开始。

I know, typical public radio political correctness, a defense of Asian teenagers getting plastic surgery to look white.

我知道，典型的公共广播政治正确性，是为亚洲青少年接受整容手术让自己看起来变白的辩护。

Some of these schemes on today's show you may agree with, some you may not agree with.

今天节目中的一些方案您可能会同意，有些您可能不同意。

We have one that is about an entire nation going on a self-improvement kick.

我们有一个关于整个国家自我完善的故事。

From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.

这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。

Get off that treadmill, put down that celery stick, stop reorganizing your budget for the year, and stay with us.

离开跑步机，放下芹菜杆，停止重新调整今年的预算，并留在我们身边。

Act One, Is that a Compass, a Map, a Toothbrush and a Bottle of Purell in Your Pocket, or Are You Just Happy To See Me?

第一幕，你口袋里的是指南针、地图、牙刷和一瓶 Purell，还是你只是很高兴见到我？

Elna Baker has this story of somebody taking the reins and daring to start over, to change his own life.

埃尔娜·贝克（Elna Baker）有这样一个故事，讲述的是一个人勇于重新开始，改变自己的生活。

I went to NYU with a guy named Daryl Watson.

我和一个名叫达里尔·沃森的人一起去了纽约大学。

Unlike a lot of the other students, Daryl didn't come from money.

与许多其他学生不同，达里尔并非出身于金钱。

He was there on a scholarship.

他是靠奖学金来的。

And instead of partying or doing drugs, he spent his time writing plays, good plays.

他没有参加派对或吸毒，而是把时间花在写戏剧上，写好戏剧。

We kept in touch after college, but I hadn't heard from him in a little while, when in August 2009, I got the kind of email that's generally a cause for concern.

大学毕业后我们一直保持联系，但我已经有一段时间没有收到他的消息了，2009 年 8 月，我收到了一封通常令人担忧的电子邮件。

It said, "Hello, everyone, I'm writing to let you know that tomorrow I will be undertaking a pilgrimage for peace, walking across the country from Cape Henlopen State Park in Delaware to San Francisco, California.

信中写道：“大家好，我写信是想让你们知道，明天我将踏上和平朝圣之旅，从特拉华州的亨洛彭角州立公园步行穿越整个国家，到达加利福尼亚州的旧金山。

I'll no longer be using this email address or the name 'Daryl Watson.' For the duration of this pilgrimage, I will carry the title carried by my predecessor, 'Peace Pilgrim.' My peace and love go out to you all."

我将不再使用此电子邮件地址或“Daryl Watson”这个名字。在这次朝圣期间，我将继承我的前任“和平朝圣者”的头衔。我的平安与爱属于你们所有人。”

Daryl's walk for peace across the entire country was supposed to take at least six months.

达里尔在全国范围内的和平步行预计需要至少六个月的时间。

Three days later, he posted an update on his blog.

三天后，他在博客上发布了更新。

All it said was, "Peace Pilgrim down.

它只说：“和平朝圣者下来。

Repeat, Peace Pilgrim down." I remember thinking, three days?

重复一遍，和平朝圣者下来。”我记得我当时在想，三天？

That's it?

就是这样？

What happened?

发生了什么？

I'd never gotten the story, so a month ago I called him and we met up.

我从来不知道这个故事，所以一个月前我打电话给他，我们见面了。

Oh, I haven't seen you in years.

哦，我已经好几年没见到你了。

And now all of a sudden we're in a radio station.

现在突然我们就到了一个广播电台。

I know.

我知道。

It's like the most official way to see someone.

这就像见某人最正式的方式。

He told me the back story.

他给我讲了背后的故事。

In 2007, Daryl was living in New York City and working at a children's TV show.

2007 年，达里尔住在纽约市，在一个儿童电视节目中工作。

That part I knew.

那部分我知道。

His career was going well.

他的职业生涯进展顺利。

What I didn't know is that he was also sort of falling apart.

我不知道的是，他也有点崩溃了。

He'd been a devout Christian as a teenager.

他十几岁时就是一名虔诚的基督徒。

He'd even considered becoming a minister.

他甚至考虑过当一名部长。

But he'd left the church, and now, five years later, every night he was having these vivid dreams where people would talk to him about who we was, what his purpose was on earth, the meaning of life.

但他离开了教堂，五年后的现在，每天晚上他都会做这些生动的梦，人们会和他谈论我们是谁，他在地球上的目的是什么，生命的意义。

He'd wake up confused and upset and exhausted.

他醒来时会感到困惑、心烦意乱、疲惫不堪。

The dreams started to preoccupy him during the day.

白天，梦开始让他全神贯注。

They seemed more important than his waking life, to the point where he almost couldn't function.

它们似乎比他清醒时的生活更重要，以至于他几乎无法正常工作。

Because I was wrestling with so much fear and so much doubt, I'd wanted an end to the ambiguity.

因为我一直在与如此多的恐惧和怀疑作斗争，所以我希望结束这种模糊性。

I wanted my mission statement.

我想要我的使命宣言。

You know how every business has a mission statement?

您知道每个企业都有自己的使命宣言吗？

You know what I mean?

你知道我的意思？

That's what I wanted.

这就是我想要的。

Like, you are Daryl Watson, you were born on this day, this is your purpose, this is how you're going to do it.

就像，你是达里尔·沃森，你在这一天出生，这就是你的目的，这就是你要做的事情。

All the dreams made him wonder if he had a spiritual calling that he was avoiding.

所有的梦境都让他怀疑自己是否有某种正在逃避的精神召唤。

Daryl wanted to feel a connection to God, a clear, unshakable answer.

达里尔想要感受到与上帝的联系，一个清晰、不可动摇的答案。

So he threw his career aside, left New York, and tried all the classics-- silent meditation and fasting for 40 days, a trip to Peru to study under a shaman, a holy trip to Jerusalem.

于是他抛开了自己的事业，离开了纽约，尝试了所有的经典——40天的静坐和禁食、前往秘鲁跟随萨满学习、前往耶路撒冷进行神圣之旅。

He did this for a year.

他这样做了一年。

Nothing helped.

没有任何帮助。

Finally, when he was just about to give up, he came across the story of Peace Pilgrim.

终于，在他快要放弃的时候，他看到了《和平朝圣者》的故事。

Peace Pilgrim was a woman named Mildred Norman, who became famous in the 1960s in certain circles for walking across the United States and Canada and Mexico with no money or possessions, just a shirt that said "Peace Pilgrim." She followed Jesus' advice, to be like the lilies of the field, to trust that God would provide.

和平朝圣者是一位名叫米尔德里德·诺曼的女性，她在 20 世纪 60 年代在某些圈子里出名，因为她身无分文，身无分文，只穿了一件写着“和平朝圣者”的衬衫，步行穿越了美国、加拿大和墨西哥。她听从耶稣的建议，像田野里的百合花一样，相信上帝会供应。

She walked for 28 years.

她步行了28年。

Here she is being interviewed in Pensacola in 1977.

图为 1977 年她在彭萨科拉接受采访。

I haven't got any money, and I don't even accept any money, and I don't belong to any organization, and I don't own anything except what you see.

我没有钱，我什至不接受任何钱，我不属于任何组织，除了你所看到的之外，我不拥有任何东西。

This is me and my only earthly possessions sitting in this chair.

这是坐在这张椅子上的我和我唯一的尘世财产。

I walk until given shelter, fast until given food.

我步行直到得到庇护，禁食直到得到食物。

I don't even ask.

我什至不问。

It's given without asking.

它是不需询问就给予的。

I didn't know why other people weren't doing it.

我不知道为什么其他人不这样做。

Peace Pilgrim's story had all the answers Daryl was looking for.

和平朝圣者的故事提供了达里尔正在寻找的所有答案。

She trusted God and it worked.

她相信上帝，而这成功了。

God did provide for her, for almost 30 years.

上帝确实供应了她近30年。

She had the unambiguous connection to God that Daryl desperately wanted.

她与上帝有着明确的联系，这是达里尔迫切想要的。

She had no doubt or fear, and her fearlessness inspired others.

她没有怀疑或恐惧，她的无畏精神激励了其他人。

I thought, why aren't more people giving away everything that they own and walking across the country?

我想，为什么没有更多的人放弃他们拥有的一切并步行穿越整个国家呢？

Of course, this is what you do.

当然，这就是你所做的。

When you live in this world, as crazy as it is, this is what you do.

当你生活在这个世界上时，无论多么疯狂，这就是你所做的。

So in August of 2009, Daryl decided to become today's Peace Pilgrim.

因此，2009 年 8 月，达里尔决定成为今天的和平朝圣者。

He bought a blue t-shirt and spray-painted "Peace Pilgrim" across the front and "Walking Coast to Coast for Peace" on the back.

他买了一件蓝色T恤，正面喷漆“和平朝圣者”，背面喷漆“为了和平从东海岸走到西海岸”。

Then he shaved his hair and his beard.

然后他剃掉了头发和胡子。

After that, he cleared out his bank accounts and credit cards, putting all the money into an envelope he planned to give to charity.

之后，他清理了自己的银行账户和信用卡，把所有的钱放进一个信封里，打算捐给慈善机构。

Lastly, he tore up his driver's license.

最后，他撕毁了自己的驾驶执照。

Just 10 days after first getting the idea, Daryl caught a bus to Delaware.

第一次产生这个想法仅仅十天后，达里尔就乘公共汽车前往特拉华州。

That night, from a motel in Cape Henlopen, he sent the infamous mass email and then wiped his computer clean of files, including, shockingly, all the plays he'd written over the last eight years.

那天晚上，他从亨洛彭角的一家汽车旅馆发送了这封臭名昭著的群发电子邮件，然后清除了电脑上的文件，令人震惊的是，其中包括他在过去八年里写的所有剧本。

He left his computer, phone, and iPod in the motel room, with a note for the cleaning staff to keep them.

他把电脑、手机和 iPod 留在了汽车旅馆房间里，并留了一张纸条让清洁人员保管。

The next morning, August 30, Daryl began his walk.

8 月 30 日，第二天早上，达里尔开始步行。

He'd do what the original Peace Pilgrim did, trust that people would be moved by his faith in God and provide for him.

他会做最初的和平朝圣者所做的事情，相信人们会被他对上帝的信仰所感动并为他提供食物。

So the only things in his pockets were a compass, a map, a toothbrush, and a bottle of Purell.

所以他口袋里只有一个指南针、一张地图、一把牙刷和一瓶普瑞尔（Purell）。

No food, no sleeping bag, not even a coat.

没有食物，没有睡袋，甚至没有一件外套。

The first thing he wanted to do was give away the envelope with all his money, roughly $2,000.

他想做的第一件事就是把装着他所有钱的信封（大约 2,000 美元）送给别人。

That first night, I walked by a church and I thought, well, maybe I can give the money to whoever's at this church.

第一个晚上，我走过一座教堂，我想，好吧，也许我可以把钱捐给这座教堂里的任何人。

And so there's a pastor there.

所以那里有一位牧师。

And he and I start talking.

他和我开始交谈。

And I try to give him this envelope full of money, and he gets a really suspicious look on his face.

我试着给他这个装满钱的信封，他脸上露出了非常怀疑的表情。

And he doesn't come right out and say it, but I think he probably thought that I stole it, because it's a good deal of money in an envelope.

他没有直接说出来，但我想他可能认为我偷了它，因为这是装在信封里的一大笔钱。

And he looked at it.

他看着它。

I kind of laughed.

我有点笑了。

I was like, oh, no, I didn't steal this.

我当时想，哦，不，我没有偷这个。

I withdrew it.

我撤回了。

Like, I withdrew all the money from my bank account.

就像，我从银行帐户中提取了所有的钱。

That's where I got the money.

我就是从那里得到钱的。

Do you want it?

你想要吗？

Something to know, the original Peace Pilgrim was a sweet-faced older white lady who started walking in the 1950s.

需要知道的是，最初的和平朝圣者是一位面容甜美的老年白人女士，她在 20 世纪 50 年代开始行走。

Daryl is a tall, athletic 30-year-old black man walking in 2009.

2009 年，达里尔 (Daryl) 是一位身材高大、运动健壮的 30 岁黑人男子。

The pastor's reaction surprised him, but didn't shock him.

牧师的反应让他感到惊讶，但并没有让他感到震惊。

I wasn't like, oh my goodness, why would he think that I stole this?

我当时想，天哪，为什么他会认为我偷了这个？

I think it was a reasonable suspicion regardless of what color I was, but I don't think being black helped.

我认为无论我是什么肤色，这都是一个合理的怀疑，但我不认为黑人有帮助。

I was annoyed.

我很生气。

But then I was like, well, maybe this is a chance for me to spread the message.

但后来我想，好吧，也许这是我传播信息的机会。

You know what I mean?

你知道我的意思？

So then he and I started talking.

然后我和他开始交谈。

And I told him why I was doing what I was doing.

我告诉他我为什么要做我正在做的事情。

And he said, well, you know the only way to peace is really through Jesus.

他说，好吧，你知道通往和平的唯一途径确实是通过耶稣。

And I was like, I understand what you're saying.

我当时想，我明白你在说什么。

I used to believe that myself.

我自己曾经也这么相信过。

I disagree.

我不同意。

And he was like, you're wrong.

他说，你错了。

And I got into a sort of heated theological debate.

我陷入了一场激烈的神学辩论。

And then, finally, I was like, well, maybe I should just be on my way.

最后，我想，好吧，也许我应该上路了。

And he's like, you know what, I'm not gonna take your money.

他就像，你知道吗，我不会拿你的钱。

I think he was going to take the money.

我认为他会拿走这笔钱。

He actually was holding the envelope as he was debating with me.

当他和我辩论时，他实际上拿着信封。

And then at a certain point, he was like, you know what, I'm not gonna take this money, because I feel like to take it from you, who's not a believer, would be sending the wrong message.

然后在某个时刻，他说，你知道吗，我不会拿这笔钱，因为我觉得从你那里拿钱，因为你不是信徒，会发出错误的信息。

And then he said, Jesus said to the disciples, if you go into a town and you try to spread the gospel and they don't hear you, leave that town and then wipe the dirt off your feet.

然后他说，耶稣对门徒说，如果你进一个城镇，试图传播福音，但他们不听你的话，就离开那个城镇，然后擦掉脚上的泥土。

And let that be a testimony to that place.

让它成为那个地方的见证。

And he said, so I wipe my feet off at you.

他说，所以我给你擦脚。

And that really bothered me.

这真的让我很困扰。

But Daryl couldn't dwell on it.

但达里尔无法多想。

He still had to get rid of the money and find a place to sleep.

他还得把钱处理掉，找个地方睡觉。

So he wrote "for charity" on the envelope and dropped it in the first mailbox he saw.

于是他在信封上写下了“为了慈善事业”，然后把它投进了他看到的第一个邮箱。

Without any offers to stay inside, Daryl slept on the steps of the Catholic Church that night.

那天晚上，达里尔在没有任何留在里面的提议的情况下睡在天主教堂的台阶上。

You know, it was just starting to get cold out.

你知道，天气刚刚开始变冷。

I didn't have a coat.

我没有外套。

I didn't have a sleeping bag.

我没有睡袋。

I didn't have really anything.

我其实什么都没有。

And it was just concrete.

它只是具体的。

And concrete is really cold.

混凝土真的很冷。

So that first night, I barely slept at all.

所以第一个晚上我几乎没怎么睡。

And the second day, I walked into this college town.

而第二天，我就走进了这座大学城。

And I made it to some sort of fast food restaurant place.

我去了一家快餐店。

I stopped a lot at fast food places, because they let you have water for free.

我经常在快餐店停下来，因为他们免费提供水。

And then I would just sit there and just try to recover.

然后我就坐在那里，努力恢复。

And this college kid saw my Peace Pilgrim shirt, and so he came over and started talking to me.

这个大学生看到了我的和平朝圣者衬衫，所以他走过来开始和我说话。

And he's like, that's really crazy that you're doing this.

他说，你这样做真是太疯狂了。

Have you done anything like this before?

你以前做过类似的事情吗？

And I was like, no. He's like, have you ever hiked long distance or walked long distance like this?

我当时想，不。他说，你有没有像这样长途跋涉或步行过？

I was like, no. He was like, hmm.

我当时想，不。他就像，嗯。

He's like, you don't have any supplies or any food, anything like that?

And I said, I'm not worried about it.

我说，我并不担心。

I think I'm just sort of trusting in God's providence to get me through.

我想我只是相信上帝的旨意会帮助我渡过难关。

And he's like, well, you're definitely going to freeze.

他说，好吧，你肯定会冻僵的。

And he's like, I don't know what God's gonna help you do in the cold, because it's starting to drop.

他说，我不知道上帝会帮助你在寒冷中做什么，因为天气开始下降。

He's like, and once you hit the Midwest, there's gonna be snow.

他就像，一旦你到达中西部，就会下雪。

He's like, and you don't have anything.

他就像，而你什么都没有。

And he was wearing a sweatshirt, this red sweatshirt.

他穿着一件运动衫，这件红色的运动衫。

And he took it off and he gave it to me.

他把它脱下来给了我。

Wow.

哇。

Daryl Watson And he was like, here.

达里尔·沃森（Daryl Watson）他就像在这里。

He's like, you're going to need this more than I am.

And he was right, because that night, I think it was even colder than the night before.

And there was a definite wind.

而且确实有风。

By the end of day two, in a college town of all places, Daryl still hadn't been offered a crash pad.

So he found a baseball field on campus with a dugout, and rolled himself like a burrito into a slab of AstroTurf.

It was still cold, but he managed to get some rest.

虽然天气还很冷，但他还是设法休息了一会儿。

On day three, approximately 40 miles in, Daryl crossed his first state line into Maryland.

第三天，在大约 40 英里处，达里尔穿过他的第一条州线进入马里兰州。

It was a triumph.

这是一次胜利。

He'd walked across an entire state.

他走过了整个州。

Granted, it was Delaware, but still.

当然，那是特拉华州，但仍然如此。

Now his route took him into a rural area, which meant fewer cars and fewer people to stop and talk with.

Feeling incredibly alone, he tried to keep his mind on God, like Peace Pilgrim had, and to give up his fear.

But oddly, things were working the other way around for him.

He'd entered the journey fearlessly, and only along the way was he beginning to understand how many things there were to fear.

I finally got to a point where I just couldn't walk anymore.

And there was still daylight out.

而且天还亮着。

And I'd wanted to walk all day, but I just didn't have the strength.

Too tired to go any further, Daryl found another church, but it was locked.

So he laid down in a covered concrete area behind it.

And I drift off to sleep for, like, a moment, and then suddenly I feel this warmth enter my body.

我迷迷糊糊地睡了一会儿，然后突然我感觉到一股温暖进入我的身体。

And all of a sudden, I have all this energy.

突然间，我拥有了所有的能量。

And I hear a voice inside of me say, you gotta get up and you need to start walking right now or you are going to freeze to death.

And I got up and I started walking.

我站起来开始走路。

And after I got that second wind and I got to a playground, there was a slide that had a little house at the top.

So I was like, ah, shelter.

所以我就像，啊，庇护所。

And I climbed in, and it was metal and wet inside.

我爬了进去，里面是金属的，而且湿漉漉的。

But I still tried anyway, just because it was at least protecting me from the wind.

但我还是尝试了，因为它至少可以保护我免受风吹。

And it looked like a tiny house.

它看起来像一座小房子。

And I start to drift off a little bit, and I felt that same voice kind of kick in and say, you got to get out of here.

Leave.

离开。

And sure, I had a moment where I was like, oh, is this God?

当然，有一瞬间我就想，哦，这是上帝吗？

Is this an angel?

这是天使吗？

In the moment, I was like, whatever it is, it might have a point.

I may need to get up and start walking.

我可能需要站起来开始走路。

And maybe I can work out the psychological, theological questions later.

也许稍后我可以解决心理、神学问题。

So I got up, and I was just walking and walking and walking, trying to make it to the next town.

于是我站了起来，一直走啊走啊，试图到达下一个城镇。

And at one point, a police car pulled up behind me and started flashing his lights.

有一次，一辆警车停在我身后并开始闪烁警灯。

And I got so happy, because I thought, maybe he'll take me to jail and I'll get to sleep inside of a warm place.

我很高兴，因为我想，也许他会把我带进监狱，我会睡在一个温暖的地方。

And the cop got out, because I was walking on the highway.

警察下了车，因为我正在高速公路上行走。

And he was like, what are you doing?

他说，你在做什么？

He's like, it's kind of late to be out for a walk, isn't it?

他说，现在出去散步有点晚了，不是吗？

It was, like, 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning.

大概是凌晨 1:00 或 2:00。

I told him what I was doing, that I was on a pilgrimage for peace.

And he was like, OK, do you mind if I take a look inside your bag?

I had a bag that a woman had given me, and I was using it to carry what little food I had.

So I gave it to him.

所以我把它给了他。

He looked through it.

他看了一遍。

He gave it back to me.

他把它还给了我。

And he was like, OK, you're free to go.

他说，好吧，你可以走了。

And I said, do you mind if I sit in the back of your car and just get warm for a little bit?

我说，你介意我坐在你车后座上取暖一下吗？

Because man, when he opened the car door, I could feel the warmth inside of the car, and I wanted to be in there so badly.

因为伙计，当他打开车门时，我能感觉到车内的温暖，我非常想进去。

And I asked him.

我问他。

And he had a police dog in the back that was looking at me.

他后面有一只警犬正在看着我。

And he said, I don't mind, but I think he would.

他说，我不介意，但我想他会的。

And he pointed to the dog.

他指着那只狗。

So the cop drives off, and I walk for probably another 30 minutes.

于是警察开车走了，我大概又走了 30 分钟。

And I'm tired, I'm hungry, my feet are killing me, I'm really thirsty, I'm freezing.

我累了，我饿了，我的脚快要冻死了，我真的很渴，我冻僵了。

And I saw this billboard.

我看到了这个广告牌。

And it said, it's OK to make mistakes as long as they're new ones.

它说，只要是新的错误，犯错误就可以。

And I was like, hmm, I wonder if I made a mistake.

我当时想，嗯，我想知道我是否犯了一个错误。

And it didn't quite sink in yet, which is funny because maybe I like to think that, for someone who'd been wanting messages about what to do and what not to do, that God was like, let me give him a billboard.

但它还没有完全被理解，这很有趣，因为也许我喜欢认为，对于那些一直想要关于该做什么和不该做什么的信息的人来说，上帝就像，让我给他一个广告牌。

It makes me wonder now if that billboard even existed and it wasn't just a hallucination.

现在我想知道那个广告牌是否存在，而这不仅仅是一个幻觉。

I'm pretty sure that it existed.

我很确定它存在。

But who knows.

但谁知道呢。

Who knows, man.

谁知道呢，伙计。

From the highway, Daryl could see the lights of a Best Western.

从高速公路上，达里尔可以看到贝斯特韦斯特酒店的灯光。

He took the next exit and walked to the hotel.

他从下一个出口走去酒店。

He got lucky.

他很幸运。

The woman working in the night shift was nice and let him sit in the lobby and warm up for a few hours.

夜班的那位女士人很好，让他坐在大厅里热身了几个小时。

But then her manager showed up.

但随后她的经理出现了。

He's looking at me, and he doesn't know who I am.

他看着我，但他不知道我是谁。

He knows I'm not a guest.

他知道我不是客人。

He knows that I've eaten food, that I've used the bathroom.

他知道我吃过饭，上过厕所。

He's got his eye on me.

他的目光注视着我。

Daryl didn't want any trouble from the manager, so he left and went across the street to a fast food place, where he sat with his usual cup of water.

达里尔不想让经理找麻烦，所以他离开了，穿过马路来到一家快餐店，坐在那里，端着他平常喝的那杯水。

He thought about the original Peace Pilgrim and felt embarrassed.

他想起当初的和平朝圣者，就觉得不好意思。

She'd walked 25 miles a day in three different countries for 28 years.

28 年来，她每天在三个不同的国家步行 25 英里。

He'd made it to Denton, Maryland, and was done in after three days.

他已抵达马里兰州丹顿，三天后就结束了。

Daryl saw that he hadn't had anywhere near enough respect for what she'd accomplished.

达里尔发现他对她所取得的成就还没有给予足够的尊重。

He couldn't walk anymore, and he knew it.

他已经无法行走了，他知道这一点。

And with no money, no phone, no ID, he realized that he had only one option in the vicinity for getting rescued.

由于没有钱、没有电话、没有身份证，他意识到他在附近只有一个获救的选择。

So he went back to the Best Western and the suspicious manager.

于是他又回到了最佳西方酒店，遇到了那个可疑的经理。

I opened with, I have made a huge mistake.

我打开了，我犯了一个巨大的错误。

And then I just started telling him everything that had happened.

然后我就开始告诉他发生的一切。

I was crying.

我哭了。

I told him, I was like, this is my shirt that I've made.

我告诉他，我想，这是我做的衬衫。

It says "Peace Pilgrim" on it.

上面写着“和平朝圣者”。

And I showed him the back, which had "Walking Coast to Coast for Peace." I started in Delaware, I made it here, and I'm completely exhausted and hungry.

我给他看了背面，上面写着“为了和平而从东海岸走到西海岸”。我从特拉华州出发，到了这里，我已经筋疲力尽，而且很饿。

And I don't think I can walk another step.

而且我想我已经无法再迈出一步了。

And he was like, well, do you need me to call Social Services or something like that?

他说，好吧，你需要我打电话给社会服务中心或类似的电话吗？

And I was like, no, I think I need to-- if I could just-- can I make a phone call?

我当时想，不，我想我需要——如果可以的话——我可以打个电话吗？

Daryl called his mother, who got him a room for the night.

达里尔打电话给他的母亲，母亲为他安排了一个房间过夜。

Over the phone, she told him, I'm glad you're safe, get some rest, take a nice hot bath.

她在电话里告诉他，我很高兴你安全了，好好休息，洗个热水澡。

Then he called a friend, who rented a car and started driving down from New York to come get him.

然后他打电话给一个朋友，朋友租了一辆车，从纽约开车过来接他。

Upstairs in his room, Daryl noticed that all the urgency, all the questioning that had driven him for the last couple of years, it was gone.

在楼上他的房间里，达里尔注意到过去几年里驱使他前进的所有紧迫感和所有疑问都消失了。

Probably the culminating moment in all of this was probably sitting in that bathtub and just being so exhausted that I just didn't care anymore if I had the answer.

也许这一切的高潮时刻可能是坐在浴缸里，我太累了，以至于我不再关心我是否有答案。

It just wasn't important.

这并不重要。

He'd left New York more than a year ago.

他一年多前就离开了纽约。

He'd been on this journey, most of it alone and suffering, and trying to figure out the meaning of life.

他一直在这段旅程中，大部分时间都是孤独和痛苦的，并试图找出生命的意义。

He'd been obsessing over his dreams a year before that.

一年前，他一直沉迷于自己的梦想。

And three days in the cold made him realize he was doing this to himself.

在寒冷的三天里，他意识到自己正在对自己做这样的事。

He was making himself suffer.

他让自己受苦。

And he could stop.

他可以停下来。

Which landed him in the same messy place so many of us are in, not having any answers.

这让他陷入了和我们很多人一样的混乱境地，没有任何答案。

So we just ignore the questions and get on with our lives.

所以我们只是忽略这些问题并继续我们的生活。

Daryl's back to writing plays now.

达里尔现在又开始写戏剧了。

It took him a year and a half of heavy lifting to rebuild the life he'd given up.

他花了一年半的时间才重新开始了他放弃的生活。

And of all the writing that he worked so hard on and then erased, the one thing that remained was that email.

在他辛辛苦苦写下的所有文字中，最后都被删除了，剩下的就是那封电子邮件。

An email, as we all know, lives forever.

众所周知，电子邮件是永远存在的。

It may have gone to some executives at Disney.

它可能已经落入迪士尼的一些高管手中。

I think it went to my agent at the time.

我想它当时已经交给了我的经纪人。

I think it went to a publishing company that had published some of my plays.

我认为它去了一家出版公司，该公司出版了我的一些戏剧。

It went to everybody.

它传给了每个人。

And so it's been one of those things that helps remind me that I never want to do that ever again.

因此，这是帮助我提醒我再也不想这样做的事情之一。

So if things ever get tough, I never think to myself, well, I could always just give everything away and try to walk across the country.

所以，如果事情变得艰难，我从来不会对自己想，好吧，我总是可以放弃一切，尝试步行穿越整个国家。

I know not to have that thought, because I've done that, and it didn't work for me.

我知道不要有这个想法，因为我已经这么做了，但它对我不起作用。

Yeah.

是的。

Someone once said, it's OK to make mistakes as long as they're new ones.

有人曾经说过，犯错误没关系，只要是新的错误。

[LAUGHS].

[笑]。

That should be on a billboard.

这应该是在广告牌上。

It should be.

应该是的。

Daryl Watson I think.

我想是达里尔·沃森。

It's that good.

就这么好。

That story by Elna Baker.

埃尔娜·贝克的故事。

She's the author of a book, The New York Regional Mormon Singles Halloween Dance .

她是《纽约地区摩门教单身万圣节舞蹈》一书的作者。

A theater company in Los Angeles is doing a reading of Daryl Watson's latest play, Unbound , in February.

洛杉矶的一家戏剧公司正在二月份朗读达里尔·沃森的最新戏剧《Unbound》。

Coming up, Tempest in a TED Talk.

接下来是 Tempest 的 TED 演讲。

That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.

稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。

It's This American Life .

这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

The very first time that I ever met my wife-- ever, our first conversation-- she told me that at the time, she'd just started doing yoga, and she had just signed up for an adult education French class.

我第一次见到我的妻子——也是我们的第一次谈话——她告诉我，当时她刚刚开始做瑜伽，而且刚刚报名参加成人教育法语课程。

And so I said, so you're on a real self-improvement kick, which I thought was just me listening to what she was saying and making conversation.

所以我说，所以你真的在自我完善，我以为这只是我在听她说的话并进行对话。

She thought it was the most condescending possible thing I could have said at that moment.

她认为这是我当时能说的最居高临下的话。

She actually went to her best friend, Debbie, afterwards and they had a whole conversation, apparently, about what an ass I was to have said that.

后来她实际上去找了她最好的朋友黛比，他们进行了一次完整的谈话，显然，我说的是多么蠢的事。

So I have learned that when you add the word "kick" to the phrase "self-improvement," you just make it sound ridiculous.

所以我了解到，当你在“自我完善”这个短语中添加“踢”这个词时，你只会让它听起来很荒谬。

Though truthfully, the phrase "self-improvement" is always on the verge of sounding ridiculous.

说实话，“自我完善”这个词听起来总是处于荒谬的边缘。

Any plan to change your look or to start a new career or reinvent yourself in a new place, the clumsy first steps that you take toward any big goal are inherently awkward and stumbly.

任何改变你的外表、开始新的职业或在新的地方重塑自己的计划，你为实现任何大目标而采取的笨拙的第一步本质上都是尴尬和绊倒的。

Today on our show, for the new year, with people everywhere making resolutions, it's all about people bravely heading out on one self-improvement kick or another.

今天在我们的节目中，在新的一年里，世界各地的人们都做出了决心，这一切都是关于人们勇敢地踏上自我提升的道路。

We've arrived at act two of our show.

我们已经到了演出的第二幕了。

Act Two, Some Like it Dot.

第二幕，有些人喜欢它。

In this act, we head to a country that tried for a while to build a perfect world, to solve all of their national problems in one swoop.

在这一幕中，我们前往一个曾一度试图建立一个完美世界、一举解决所有国家问题的国家。

The country is Honduras.

这个国家就是洪都拉斯。

Jacob Goldstein and Chana Joffe-Walt tell more.

雅各布·戈德斯坦和查纳·乔夫-沃尔特讲述了更多内容。

We went to Honduras in the fall, about a month before their presidential primary.

我们秋天去了洪都拉斯，距离他们的总统初选大约一个月。

And it felt weirdly a lot like home.

感觉很奇怪，很像家。

The election was everywhere, on news stories, billboards, and of course campaign ads, which were just like the ads we were hearing in the US.

选举无处不在，新闻报道、广告牌，当然还有竞选广告，就像我们在美国听到的广告一样。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Jacob Goldstein This candidate is focused on the future, not the past.

[西班牙语] 雅各布·戈德斯坦这位候选人着眼于未来，而不是过去。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Jacob Goldstein This guy wants to put the country on the road to unity.

[西班牙语] 雅各布·戈尔茨坦这个人想让这个国家走上团结之路。

And this last candidate, he's a family man who wants you to know that he believes not only in principles, but also in values.

最后一位候选人，他是一个顾家的男人，他想让你知道他不仅相信原则，而且相信价值观。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Jacob Goldstein And like candidates all over the world, the candidates in Honduras were giving out free stuff to win votes.

[西班牙语] 雅各布·戈尔茨坦和世界各地的候选人一样，洪都拉斯的候选人也通过赠送免费物品来赢得选票。

But here's where the Honduras election started to seem very, very different.

但这就是洪都拉斯选举开始显得非常非常不同的地方。

The schwag wasn't just bumper stickers and lawn signs.

恶作剧不仅仅是保险杠贴纸和草坪标志。

Alberto Arce, a reporter with the Associated Press based in Honduras, says the presidential campaigns showed up at the morgue to give stuff away.

美联社驻洪都拉斯记者阿尔贝托·阿尔塞表示，总统竞选团队出现在太平间分发东西。

If you go to the morgue any day at 8:00 in the morning, you will see that there are three cars, like pick-ups, in the door with coffins.

如果你每天早上8:00去太平间，你会看到门口有三辆车，像皮卡一样，停着棺材。

But then if you get a closer look, you will see that these cars, these pick-ups with coffins, have banners from political candidates.

但如果你仔细观察，你会发现这些汽车，这些装有棺材的皮卡，上面挂着政治候选人的横幅。

Political candidates in Honduras are giving away coffins.

洪都拉斯的政治候选人正在赠送棺材。

Honduras has the highest murder rate in the world.

洪都拉斯是世界上谋杀率最高的国家。

And a lot of Hondurans can't afford coffins.

许多洪都拉斯人买不起棺材。

So the point is that, if you are poor, you go to the morgue and you ask one of these cars, please, can you give me a coffin for my dad or for my brother that has been killed, and they will give it.

所以关键是，如果你很穷，你去太平间，你问其中一辆车，能给我一具棺材给我父亲或我被杀的兄弟，他们会给的。

So everybody knows that they owe the favor to the politician that is giving this favor.

所以每个人都知道他们欠给予这种帮助的政治家一个人情。

That's how you win votes in the world's murder capital, give people a way to bury their loved ones.

这就是你如何在世界谋杀之都赢得选票，为人们提供埋葬亲人的方式。

It's just one weird, dark sign of how bad things are in Honduras.

这只是洪都拉斯情况有多糟糕的一个奇怪而黑暗的迹象。

And the leaders of the country know this.

国家领导人也知道这一点。

Everybody knows this.

每个人都知道这一点。

And everybody knows basically what problems need to be fixed, but it's really hard to figure out where to start.

每个人基本上都知道需要解决哪些问题，但确实很难弄清楚从哪里开始。

Say you want to start with the education system.

假设你想从教育系统开始。

The education system is terrible because teachers are always on strike.

教育系统很糟糕，因为老师总是罢工。

Teachers are always on strike because they don't get paid.

教师总是因为拿不到工资而罢工。

They don't get paid because the government does a terrible job collecting taxes.

他们没有得到报酬，因为政府在征税方面做得很糟糕。

Oh, and also because the government doesn't collect taxes, it can't hire a proper police force.

哦，而且因为政府不征税，所以它无法雇用适当的警察部队。

And there's a huge backlog in the courts.

法院积压了大量案件。

And Hondurans think their cops, and for that matter, lots of other government workers, can be bought and sold.

洪都拉斯人认为他们的警察以及许多其他政府工作人员可以被买卖。

So you have corruption and chaos and violence.

所以就有腐败、混乱和暴力。

How can you fix this?

你该如何解决这个问题？

Where do you start?

你从哪里开始？

There is this one radical idea floating around.

有一种激进的想法正在流传。

What if you could just get rid of everything and start from scratch?

如果你可以摆脱一切并从头开始怎么办？

In Honduras, there is one man who really owns this idea, Octavio Sanchez.

在洪都拉斯，有一个人真正拥有这个想法，他就是奥克塔维奥·桑切斯。

He's the chief of staff to the current Honduran president.

他是现任洪都拉斯总统的幕僚长。

He has an office in the presidential palace.

他在总统府设有办公室。

And Octavio has a habit of staring longingly out of the windows of that office.

奥克塔维奥习惯于渴望地凝视办公室的窗外。

He looks so much the part of a national dreamer, it can feel fabricated.

他看起来非常像一个民族梦想家，但又让人觉得是捏造的。

It is not.

它不是。

There is something that I don't have here, which is a book that I published when I was 16 years old.

有一样东西我这里没有，那是我16岁时出版的一本书。

Yes.

是的。

Jacob Goldstein The book is set in the year 2050.

雅各布·戈德斯坦这本书的背景设定在 2050 年。

And it's in the form of these imagined bulletins from the Honduran government about how the country solved all its problems.

它以洪都拉斯政府这些想象中的公告的形式出现，讲述该国如何解决所有问题。

It's this incredibly nerdy book full of youthful idealism.

这是一本令人难以置信的书呆子书，充满了青春的理想主义。

In his 20s, Octavio spent hours trying to actually figure out why are some countries rich and some countries poor.

20 多岁时，奥克塔维奥花了几个小时试图真正弄清楚为什么有些国家富裕而有些国家贫穷。

He showed us this giant spreadsheet he made with his friends.

他向我们展示了他和朋友一起制作的巨大电子表格。

Wow.

哇。

So you looked at hundreds of countries?

那么您查看了数百个国家吗？

Yes.

是的。

Jacob Goldstein Can you just read through a little bit of the book?

雅各布·戈德斯坦（Jacob Goldstein）你能读一下这本书吗？

Basically, it gives you an idea of what is the form of government of every country in the world, how that form of government impacts per capita income.

基本上，它让您了解世界上每个国家的政府形式是什么，这种政府形式如何影响人均收入。

Shows measures of inequality, of corruption.

显示不平等和腐败的措施。

So this is the kind of thing that you put together with your friends when you're hanging out?

这就是你和朋友出去玩时会做的事情吗？

Yes.

是的。

Basically I don't drink, so it was basically just sitting around to drink a Diet Coke and talk about what we could do.

基本上我不喝酒，所以基本上只是坐在一起喝健怡可乐，讨论我们能做什么。

What were you looking for?

你在找什么？

Octavio Sanchez Answers, basically, to how we can become a developed nation.

奥克塔维奥·桑切斯基本上回答了我们如何才能成为发达国家的问题。

There's no reason why, 50 years from now, Honduras cannot become a developed country.

50年后，洪都拉斯没有理由不能成为发达国家。

We were dreaming about this.

我们一直梦想着这个。

Octavio finally got his chance to make big changes for his country in 2002.

2002年，奥克塔维奥终于有机会为他的国家做出重大改变。

He became an adviser to the president of Honduras.

他成为洪都拉斯总统的顾问。

I thought that we could change everything.

我以为我们可以改变一切。

What was the picture that you had in mind?

你心目中的画面是什么样的？

I had a whole list of all the things that we were gonna do.

我有一份我们要做的所有事情的完整清单。

And I was part of this government that was run by really honest and competent people.

我是这个由真正诚实和有能力的人管理的政府的一部分。

And it was incredibly hard to get anything done.

想要完成任何事情都非常困难。

That list that Octavio had, it had about 20 big reforms on it that all had to happen to really change Honduras.

奥克塔维奥的清单上大约有 20 项重大改革，只有这些改革才能真正改变洪都拉斯。

But in the four-year presidential term, Octavio and his colleagues only got two of those things done.

但在四年的总统任期内，奥克塔维奥和他的同事只完成了其中两件事。

They failed at 18.

他们18岁时就失败了。

So when Octavio heard about this new big idea for huge change, to start from scratch, he thought it might be the only real solution for Honduras.

因此，当奥克塔维奥听说这个从头开始的巨大变革的新想法时，他认为这可能是洪都拉斯唯一真正的解决方案。

The idea was this.

想法是这样的。

You take one little corner of the country, and you say, right here, we're going to try an experiment-- get rid of our laws, our police force, all of it.

你占据这个国家的一个小角落，你说，就在这里，我们要尝试一项实验——废除我们的法律、我们的警察部队，所有这一切。

And in this little corner, we're going to start over.

在这个小角落里，我们要重新开始。

Octavio first heard about the idea from a colleague who sat him down and scrawled it out on a piece of paper.

奥克塔维奥首先从一位同事那里听说了这个想法，这位同事让他坐下来，并在一张纸上潦草地写下了这个想法。

He drew the map of Honduras.

他画了洪都拉斯的地图。

And he used to put a period in the middle of that map.

他曾经在那张地图的中间放了一个句号。

So that's Honduras.

这就是洪都拉斯。

Octavio Sanchez That's Honduras.

奥克塔维奥·桑切斯那是洪都拉斯。

And its a really tiny spot in the middle of the map.

这是地图中间的一个非常小的点。

So you just made a dot in the middle of this?

所以你只是在中间画了一个点？

Yes.

是的。

He kept telling her, no, it's just taking a small space, a really tiny space, and doing all the reforms there.

他一直告诉她，不，只是占用一个很小的空间，一个非常小的空间，然后在那里进行所有的改革。

Instead of fighting to do two, three, or four reforms during the life of a government, why don't you just do all of those reforms at once in a really small space?

与其在政府任期内争取进行两项、三项或四项改革，为什么不在一个非常小的空间内一次性进行所有这些改革呢？

And that's why this idea was appealing.

这就是为什么这个想法很有吸引力。

It's really the possibility of turning everything around.

这确实是扭转一切的可能性。

For Octavio, this was it.

对于奥克塔维奥来说，就是这样。

You could deal with everything right there in the dot.

您可以立即处理所有事情。

Clean slate.

干净的石板。

New laws, new schools, everything.

新法律，新学校，一切。

And when the rest of Honduras saw how well things were going inside the dot, you'd bring those big reforms to the rest of the country.

当洪都拉斯其他地区看到内部情况进展顺利时，你就会将这些重大改革带到该国其他地区。

The only problem is, this idea is completely crazy.

唯一的问题是，这个想法完全是疯狂的。

What government of any country looks around and says, you know what the problem is here?

哪个国家的政府环顾四周并说，你知道这里的问题是什么吗？

Us.

我们。

Let's just create a new mini-government that looks nothing like us.

让我们创建一个与我们完全不同的新小政府吧。

So Octavio was stuck.

所以奥克塔维奥陷入了困境。

No one was interested in his big idea, until a famous economist from a rich country started saying, you know what would be a really good idea?

没有人对他的伟大想法感兴趣，直到一位来自富裕国家的著名经济学家开始说，你知道什么才是真正的好想法吗？

We should seriously consider building hundreds of brand-new cities, pick a totally uninhabited site and to say, we're going to create another alternative.

我们应该认真考虑建造数百个全新的城市，选择一个完全无人居住的地点，然后说，我们将创建另一个替代方案。

This is Paul Romer.

这是保罗·罗默。

He's another big thinker in a very different country, the United States.

他是另一个截然不同的国家——美国的伟大思想家。

But he basically came to the same conclusion as Octavio.

但他基本上得出了与奥克塔维奥相同的结论。

Poor countries need a clean slate.

贫穷国家需要重新开始。

Paul didn't call it a dot.

保罗没有称其为点。

He called it a charter city, kind of like a charter school, which gets to make its own rules and doesn't have to do what every other school in town is doing.

他称其为特许城市，有点像特许学校，可以制定自己的规则，而不必做镇上其他学校正在做的事情。

And in Paul's model, a poor country would actually invite a rich country-- a Canada, say, or a Norway-- to come in with new laws, new courts, and help run the charter city.

在保罗的模型中，一个贫穷的国家实际上会邀请一个富裕的国家——比如加拿大或挪威——加入新的法律、新的法院，并帮助管理特许城市。

So where Octavio's problem was that nobody took his idea seriously, Paul didn't have that problem.

因此，奥克塔维奥的问题是没有人认真对待他的想法，而保罗则没有这个问题。

He's one of the most famous economists working today.

他是当今最著名的经济学家之一。

People take him very seriously.

人们非常重视他。

And many people were seriously offended by his latest idea.

许多人对他的最新想法感到严重冒犯。

This is Angus Deaton.

这是安格斯·迪顿。

He's an economist at Princeton.

他是普林斯顿大学的经济学家。

I mean, I remember being surprised.

我的意思是，我记得我很惊讶。

I mean, he was advocating a reintroduction of colonialism.

我的意思是，他主张重新引入殖民主义。

So I don't approve of it.

所以我不赞成。

I think it's a terrible idea.

我认为这是一个糟糕的主意。

Colonialism.

殖民主义。

You have this rich country coming in and bringing its rules into a poor country, sounds like the definition of colonialism

你让这个富裕的国家进来并将其规则带入一个贫穷的国家，听起来像是殖民主义的定义

Paul insists it is not colonialism if a poor country is asking for help, if a poor country is inviting a rich country to come in and help set up a new city.

保罗坚持认为，如果一个贫穷国家寻求帮助，如果一个贫穷国家邀请一个富裕国家进来帮助建立一座新城市，那么这不是殖民主义。

But Paul was having a hard time finding a poor country to sign up for this.

但保罗很难找到一个贫穷的国家来报名参加这项活动。

Paul Romer may be known as a brilliant thinker, but he's not much of a salesman.

保罗·罗默可能被认为是一位杰出的思想家，但他并不是一个推销员。

For this to work, he needed to appeal to people's idealism and sense of hope, which is hard for Paul.

要做到这一点，他需要唤起人们的理想主义和希望感，这对保罗来说很难。

It's just not in his nature.

这不符合他的本性。

He told us, I'm a guy who has a hard time understanding these things called "emotions" people seem to experience.

他告诉我们，我是一个很难理解人们似乎经历过的“情绪”的人。

I've been accused of being like Spock in Star Trek .

有人指责我像《星际迷航》中的斯波克。

Paul Romer has devoted his life to making charter cities happen.

保罗·罗默 (Paul Romer) 毕生致力于实现特许城市。

He spent years flying around the world, talking to any finance minister or college kid who would listen.

他花了数年时间在世界各地飞行，与任何愿意倾听的财政部长或大学生交谈。

He was sure he just needed to let more people know he had a solution to global poverty.

他确信他只需要让更多的人知道他有解决全球贫困的办法。

He just needed a way to package his charter cities idea, make it sound, OK, a little out there, but also maybe brilliant.

他只是需要一种方法来包装他的特许城市想法，让它听起来不错，有点超前，但也可能很出色。

I decided that we needed to read conceptualize how we thought about economic development.

我决定我们需要阅读概念化我们对经济发展的看法。

[APPLAUSE] Chana Joffe-Walt And so Paul turned to the place our culture looks to hear world-changing ideas in easy-to-digest, Facebook-friendly 18-minute packages, TED talks.

[掌声] Chana Joffe-Walt 因此，保罗转向我们的文化所期待的地方，通过易于理解、Facebook 友好的 18 分钟套餐、TED 演讲来聆听改变世界的想法。

If you've never seen a TED talk, they're these public lectures you can watch on YouTube.

如果您从未看过 TED 演讲，您可以在 YouTube 上观看这些公开讲座。

Paul nailed it.

保罗成功了。

It is everything a TED talk aspires to-- there are emotional hooks, there are graphs, there's data bouncing across the screen, jokes, there's an African child named Nelson studying under streetlights because his inept government can't get its act together to provide electricity.

这就是 TED 演讲所渴望的一切——有情感挂钩，有图表，有屏幕上跳动的数据，笑话，一个名叫尼尔森的非洲孩子在路灯下学习，因为他无能的政府无法齐心协力提供电力。

And by the end of the talk, Paul Romer has outlined an answer to the problems of the developing world.

演讲结束时，保罗·罗默概述了发展中国家问题的答案。

With the help of the TED producers, it sounds nothing like colonialism.

在 TED 制片人的帮助下，这听起来一点也不像殖民主义。

Then we can keep moving progress forward and truly make the world a better place, so that people like Nelson and his friends don't have to study any longer under the streetlights.

然后我们才能不断前进，真正让世界变得更美好，让像纳尔逊和他的朋友们这样的人不必再在路灯下学习。

Thank you.

谢谢。

[APPLAUSE] Jacob Goldstein Paul told us he hoped this talk would be like a message in a bottle.

[掌声]雅各布·戈尔茨坦·保罗告诉我们，他希望这次演讲就像瓶子里的信息一样。

It worked.

它起作用了。

In 2010, the message washed up in the Honduran presidential palace in the office of Octavio Sanchez.

2010年，这条消息被冲进了洪都拉斯总统府奥克塔维奥·桑切斯的办公室。

The guy who wrote that nerdy novel when he was 16 years old was now chief of staff to the president.

16 岁时写出那本书呆子小说的人现在是总统的幕僚长。

And when he saw the video, he knew Paul Romer was the key to making his idea happen in Honduras, a fancy world-renowned intellectual who would say to Octavio's fellow citizens, this is a good idea.

当他看到视频时，他知道保罗·罗默是在洪都拉斯实现他的想法的关键，这位世界知名的知识分子会对奥克塔维奥的同胞们说，这是一个好主意。

And Hondurans, Octavio thought, would listen to this guy.

奥克塔维奥想，洪都拉斯人会听这个家伙的。

So just a few months after he saw the TED talk, Octavio managed to get Paul Romer and the president of Honduras together in a conference room in Miami.

因此，就在奥克塔维奥观看 TED 演讲几个月后，他就设法让保罗·罗默和洪都拉斯总统在迈阿密的一间会议室里聚在一起。

Paul made his economic case for the charter city, laid out all his graphs and data, but people in the room didn't seem that excited.

保罗阐述了他对这座特许城市的经济论证，列出了所有的图表和数据，但房间里的人似乎并不那么兴奋。

I was explaining kind of the details about how you could finance the city and the revenue stream for the government, and so forth.

我正在解释有关如何为城市提供资金以及政府的收入来源等细节。

And then somebody said to me, Paul, why don't you just show your TED talk?

然后有人对我说，保罗，你为什么不直接展示你的 TED 演讲呢？

Because you were being too much of your Spock self?

因为你太过于表现自己的 Spock 了？

Yeah.

是的。

And so I sat down in the audience and then watched the TED talk with everybody else.

于是我坐在观众席上，然后和其他人一起观看 TED 演讲。

Yeah.

是的。

And so I remember this woman who had just a little bit of a tear in her eye after she had watched this, and felt like this might actually make a difference in our country, this might work.

所以我记得这个女人在看完这个之后眼里含着一点泪水，她觉得这实际上可能会为我们的国家带来改变，这可能会起作用。

The president of Honduras told Paul that in order to do this, in order to completely erase Honduran law in one little corner of the country, we would have to change our constitution.

洪都拉斯总统告诉保罗，为了做到这一点，为了在该国的一个小角落彻底消除洪都拉斯法律，我们必须修改我们的宪法。

So let's do it.

那么让我们开始吧。

Let's do it next month.

我们下个月再做吧。

The Hondurans moved much more quickly than I expected.

洪都拉斯人的行动比我预想的要快得多。

And so it was a little bit of a challenge, just racing to keep up with them.

所以这是一个有点挑战，只是要跟上他们。

I thought it might be 10 years before some government would actually do something like pass a constitutional amendment or--

我认为可能需要十年时间，一些政府才会真正采取一些行动，比如通过宪法修正案，或者——

And here's the president of a country saying, we want to do it next month.

一个国家的总统说，我们想在下个月这样做。

Yeah.

是的。

Chana Joffe-Walt Honduras was about to create a brand-new city.

洪都拉斯查纳·乔夫·沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt) 即将创建一座全新的城市。

Remember that spot that's just a dot on a map?

还记得地图上那个只是一个点的地方吗？

A few months ago, we went there.

几个月前，我们去了那里。

It's not far from the Caribbean.

距离加勒比海并不远。

It's very pretty and lush, palm trees.

这是非常美丽和郁郁葱葱的棕榈树。

We were there with a guy named Carlos Pineda.

我们和一个叫卡洛斯·皮内达的人在一起。

He's a Honduran official who's trying to make this city happen.

他是一名洪都拉斯官员，正在努力让这座城市成为现实。

Although standing there, what we were looking at was the opposite of a city.

虽然站在那里，但我们看到的却是一座城市的反面。

It's just a valley with huge expansions of land, scattered trees, and a lot of green.

这只是一个山谷，土地辽阔，树木星罗棋布，绿意盎然。

To the Hondurans, it seemed surprisingly easy.

对于洪都拉斯人来说，这似乎出奇地容易。

As soon as they connected with Paul Romer, things moved really fast.

当他们与保罗·罗默联系上时，事情进展得很快。

The Honduran Congress changed the constitution.

洪都拉斯国会修改了宪法。

And now here's an actual piece of land.

现在这是一块真正的土地。

Paul transformed what was some weird local idea into the next big thing in global development.

保罗将一些奇怪的本地想法转变为全球发展中的下一个重大事件。

It was exciting.

这很令人兴奋。

Just getting to the dot, we could see the problems these guys are trying to solve.

说到重点，我们可以看到这些人试图解决的问题。

There's so much violent crime in the area that we were told to hire private security just to drive here.

该地区暴力犯罪如此之多，以至于我们被告知要雇用私人保安才能开车到这里。

And we passed factories where people who are lucky enough to have jobs at all work at low-wage jobs, like sewing together fabric for t-shirts.

我们经过工厂，那里的人们很幸运地从事着低薪工作，比如缝制 T 恤布料。

But Carlos says this city is going to change all of that.

但卡洛斯表示，这座城市将改变这一切。

He says, just imagine.

他说，想象一下。

I'm seeing a lot of people, particularly young people with children, parks, lots of trees.

我看到很多人，特别是有孩子的年轻人、公园和很多树木。

And I see office buildings and condos and beach condos and hotels and coffee shops and restaurants.

我看到了办公楼、公寓、海滩公寓、酒店、咖啡店和餐馆。

And roads, lots of roads.

还有道路，很多条道路。

All this will happen, Carlos says, because this city is going to have totally different rules than the rest of Honduras.

卡洛斯说，这一切都会发生，因为这座城市的规则将与洪都拉斯其他地方完全不同。

It's not just going to be another free trade zone or a place with some special labor laws.

它不仅仅是另一个自由贸易区或有一些特殊劳动法的地方。

The dream is to create all the institutions of civil society-- decent schools where teachers get paid and kids learn to read, honest cops, functioning courts.

我们的梦想是建立公民社会的所有机构——体面的学校，教师获得报酬，孩子们学习阅读，诚实的警察，运作良好的法院。

They might copy laws from other places.

他们可能会复制其他地方的法律。

When we were there, we heard a lot of talk about Texas state law, which is apparently pro-business.

当我们在那里时，我们听到很多关于德克萨斯州法律的讨论，这显然是有利于商业的。

They might hire retired judges from other countries-- say, the UK.

他们可能会聘请来自其他国家（例如英国）的退休法官。

And at the beginning, the money to pay for these things would be largely from foreign companies coming in and building factories and offices in the new city.

一开始，支付这些费用的资金主要来自外国公司进入新城市并建造工厂和办公室。

But eventually, Carlos says, the city would be full of young entrepreneurs and tech startups owned by Hondurans.

但卡洛斯说，最终，这座城市将充满洪都拉斯人拥有的年轻企业家和科技初创公司。

No, I don't see a lot of suits.

不，我没看到很多西装。

In my view, it has to be a fairly cool place to live.

在我看来，它必须是一个相当酷的居住地。

I lived in Seattle for a while.

我在西雅图住过一段时间。

It sounds like you're describing Seattle.

听起来你在描述西雅图。

Yeah.

是的。

It sounds reasonable, yeah.

听起来很有道理，是的。

Hopefully is.

希望是。

Seattle and Honduras.

西雅图和洪都拉斯。

Carlos Pineda Yes.

卡洛斯·皮内达是的。

Hopefully, yes, it will be something like that.

希望是的，会是这样的。

I can see how it wouldn't be believable right now.

我现在就明白这是多么令人难以置信。

But I can tell you that it can happen.

但我可以告诉你，这有可能发生。

They started planning to build this new city.

他们开始计划建造这座新城市。

There was a flood of excitement, and then things started to get rocky.

人们兴奋不已，然后事情开始变得不稳定。

The dot needed a court system.

该点需要一个法院系统。

And after months and months, they were still debating what exactly that should look like.

几个月后，他们仍在争论到底应该是什么样子。

The dot needed foreign investors, and the investors weren't coming in as quickly as everyone had hoped.

该网络需要外国投资者，但投资者的进来速度并不像所有人希望的那么快。

And when the Hondurans and Paul sat down to actually try and iron out the details to work together, that, it turned out, was challenging.

当洪都拉斯人和保罗坐下来真正尝试解决合作细节时，事实证明这是一项挑战。

Carlos Pineda, the guy who took us to the dot, says Paul's attitude was hard to take.

卡洛斯·皮内达（Carlos Pineda）带领我们找到了这一点，他说保罗的态度令人难以接受。

He says, we invited this guy here to help us, but he wasn't acting like a helper.

他说，我们邀请这个人来帮助我们，但他表现得不像个帮手。

So he wanted to have full control of everything that happened.

所以他想要完全掌控所发生的一切。

For instance, if some foreign journalist wanted to interview me or interview Octavio, I would right away get an email saying his advice, sometimes unwanted.

例如，如果某个外国记者想采访我或采访奥克塔维奥，我会立即收到一封电子邮件，其中包含他的建议，有时我并不想要。

OK, you have to be careful.

好吧，你得小心点。

This guy comes from such magazine or so.

这家伙来自这样的杂志。

I mean, we have an idea of how things work.

我的意思是，我们知道事情是如何运作的。

Or Paul would tell the Hondurans about how they should structure the court system in some particular way.

或者保罗会告诉洪都拉斯人他们应该如何以某种特定的方式构建法院系统。

And the Hondurans weren't so interested, but Paul would go ahead and set up meetings for them anyway.

洪都拉斯人并不那么感兴趣，但保罗还是会继续为他们安排会议。

Keep in mind, this is a Honduran project.

请记住，这是一个洪都拉斯项目。

It's done by the Honduran government, and it was mostly designed by Hondurans.

它是由洪都拉斯政府完成的，并且主要是由洪都拉斯人设计的。

But journalists from all over the world loved the story of the famous academic who got the chance to try his idea in a real live country.

但来自世界各地的记者都喜欢这位著名学者的故事，他有机会在一个真实的国家尝试他的想法。

Octavio Sanchez had been dreaming about this idea long before he met Paul Romer.

奥克塔维奥·桑切斯早在遇到保罗·罗默之前就一直梦想着这个想法。

And he says the Hondurans did not expect their story to be told this way, with their country essentially reduced to serving as a Petri dish for a North American plan.

他说，洪都拉斯人没想到他们的故事会以这种方式讲述，他们的国家基本上沦为北美计划的培养皿。

The only thing that got out of Honduras was how Paul Romer had convinced the Honduran government to build the charter city.

从洪都拉斯传出的唯一消息是保罗·罗默如何说服洪都拉斯政府建造这座特许城市。

I spent hours speaking with journalists, and the only thing that comes out is Romer, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, for pages, for pages, and then the small quote in the end.

我花了几个小时与记者交谈，唯一得到的结果是罗默，废话，废话，废话，废话，废话，一页，一页，然后是最后的小引用。

And the reaction from the Honduran government is the following one.

洪都拉斯政府的反应如下。

At the beginning, Octavio brought in Paul to help sell this plan in Honduras.

一开始，奥克塔维奥请来了保罗，帮助在洪都拉斯推销这个计划。

And it worked.

它奏效了。

They sold it.

他们把它卖了。

But now it seemed to Octavio like Paul was poisoning the project.

但现在奥克塔维奥觉得保罗正在毒害这个项目。

Accomplishing even small things became very difficult.

即使是很小的事情完成也变得非常困难。

No one in the cabinet or around me wanted to help in this idea if Romer was involved.

如果罗默参与其中，内阁或我周围的人都不会愿意为这个想法提供帮助。

I had an empathy with him, and I was willing to defend him.

我同情他，并且愿意为他辩护。

And I was willing to get things done if he thought that they were useful for the project.

如果他认为这些事情对项目有用，我愿意完成。

The fact is that, what I told you, it was like I was hitting a wall.

事实是，正如我告诉你的，我就像碰壁了。

When I tried to do things with him here, at some point in time, no one was willing to help.

当我试图在这里和他一起做事时，在某些时候，没有人愿意提供帮助。

The Hondurans' complaints about Paul Romer and about the foreign press, they seem kind of petty.

洪都拉斯人对保罗·罗默和外国媒体的抱怨似乎有些微不足道。

I mean, you're talking about fixing your whole country here.

我的意思是，你正在谈论修复整个国家。

Who cares what a story in The Economist says?

谁在乎《经济学人》的故事讲了什么？

Who cares if Paul Romer is lacking in social graces?

谁在乎保罗·罗默是否缺乏社交礼仪？

Suck it up.

把它吸起来。

Save your country.

拯救你的国家。

But remember, the phrase "banana republic" was invented to describe Honduras.

但请记住，“香蕉共和国”这个词是为了描述洪都拉斯而发明的。

US-based fruit companies were hugely powerful here for a big chunk of the 20th century.

在 20 世纪的大部分时间里，美国的水果公司都非常强大。

At one point, one company even funded a coup to overthrow the government.

有一次，一家公司甚至资助了一场政变，以推翻政府。

Before that, there were hundreds of years of Spanish colonialism.

在此之前，西班牙经历了数百年的殖民统治。

All of this sent a clear message to Honduras.

所有这一切都向洪都拉斯发出了明确的信息。

North Americans, the whole rich world, they don't think you're up to running your own country.

北美，整个富裕世界，他们认为你没有能力管理自己的国家。

So all this petty stuff is just not petty in Honduras.

所以所有这些琐碎的事情在洪都拉斯并不琐碎。

It really matters when a story in The Economist says a Honduran idea is actually some brilliant plan imposed by a North American economist.

当《经济学人》的一篇报道说洪都拉斯的想法实际上是北美经济学家强加的一些绝妙计划时，这确实很重要。

Here's Octavio.

这是奥克塔维奥。

Many people all over the world don't understand that we are poor not because we are dumb.

世界上许多人不明白我们贫穷并不是因为我们愚蠢。

We are poor because of our institutional arrangement, not because we lack the capacity to imagine things.

我们之所以贫穷，是因为我们的制度安排，而不是因为我们缺乏想象的能力。

In Honduras, public opinion turned against the plan.

在洪都拉斯，公众舆论反对该计划。

And a group of lawyers challenged the project in the country's supreme court.

一群律师向该国最高法院对该项目提出质疑。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Jacob Goldstein This is Oscar Cruz.

[西班牙语] 雅各布·戈德斯坦这是奥斯卡·克鲁兹。

He's one of those lawyers.

他就是这些律师之一。

And he says charter cities violate the country's sovereignty.

他还表示特许城市侵犯了国家主权。

They violate the fundamental rights of all Hondurans.

他们侵犯了所有洪都拉斯人的基本权利。

And he says they're being promoted by Paul Romer and some other North Americans who think they've discovered a magic formula to raise the world out of poverty.

他说，保罗·罗默和其他一些北美人正在推动他们，他们认为自己发现了一个让世界摆脱贫困的神奇公式。

Octavio's response to this is, yes, this new city would have many of its own laws, foreigners might be appointed as judges, but it would be run by a Honduran governor, not by some foreign country.

奥克塔维奥对此的回应是，是的，这个新城市将有许多自己的法律，外国人可能被任命为法官，但它将由洪都拉斯州长管理，而不是由某个外国管理。

He says the whole supreme court challenge is really just a big misunderstanding.

他说整个最高法院的挑战实际上只是一个很大的误解。

By the middle of 2012, the project is starting to stall, and Paul is part of the problem.

到 2012 年中，该项目开始陷入停滞，而 Paul 也是问题的一部分。

But Octavio never says that to Paul directly.

但奥克塔维奥从未直接对保罗说过这样的话。

So Paul moves ahead.

所以保罗继续前进。

He thinks he's on this commission that's supposed to oversee the new Honduran city.

他认为他是这个委员会的成员，该委员会应该监督洪都拉斯新城市。

And he goes around the world trying to get powerful people to sign on.

他走遍世界各地，试图让有权势的人加入。

He even gets a Nobel Prize-winner.

他甚至获得了诺贝尔奖。

In Honduras, meanwhile, they're dragging their feet on making this commission official.

与此同时，在洪都拉斯，他们在正式启动该委员会方面却一拖再拖。

But Paul's understanding is that he should press on anyway.

但保罗的理解是他无论如何都应该坚持下去。

And then one day last summer, Paul is in Sweden talking to IKEA about building housing for a charter city, a million apartments or something.

去年夏天的一天，保罗在瑞典与宜家讨论为一座特许城市建造住房、一百万套公寓之类的事情。

And he reads in the news that Honduras has signed a deal with some group of investors.

他在新闻中读到，洪都拉斯已与一些投资者团体签署了一项协议。

Paul doesn't know anything about it.

保罗对此一无所知。

He's stunned.

他惊呆了。

There was an announcement in the newspapers, that we heard about in the newspapers, that the government had signed some kind of agreement with a private firm.

报纸上有一个公告，我们在报纸上听说，政府已与一家私营公司签署了某种协议。

I mean, I got email, press inquiries.

我的意思是，我收到了电子邮件和媒体询问。

This is wonderful.

这太棒了。

The thing is taking off.

事情正在起飞。

Your idea is taking off.

你的想法正在起飞。

And I don't know who this firm is.

而且我也不知道这家公司是谁。

I don't know who's backing it.

我不知道是谁在支持它。

I don't know what their plan is.

我不知道他们的计划是什么。

Paul thinks that, as a member of the commission-- which, by the way, is called the Transparency Commission-- his job is to review these kind of deals, to make sure nothing shady is going on.

保罗认为，作为该委员会（顺便说一句，该委员会被称为透明度委员会）的成员，他的工作就是审查此类交易，以确保没有任何可疑的情况发生。

So Paul calls Octavio, and he asks him--

所以保罗打电话给奥克塔维奥，问他——

Can I see the agreement?

我可以看一下协议吗？

Octavio Sanchez No, we can't show you that, because there is no legal grounds to show you that.

奥克塔维奥·桑切斯不，我们无法向您展示这一点，因为没有法律依据向您展示这一点。

They said that it's protected by a non-disclosure agreement and they couldn't show it to me.

他们说它受到保密协议的保护，他们无法向我展示。

But I'm a member of the Transparency Commission.

但我是透明委员会的成员。

No, you aren't.

不，你不是。

Then are you saying that I'm not?

那你是说我不是吗？

No, there's no Transparency Commission.

不，没有透明度委员会。

It was over.

一切都结束了。

They talked one more time after that.

之后他们又聊了一次。

Paul told Octavio he was resigning from the commission.

保罗告诉奥克塔维奥，他将辞去委员会职务。

Octavio told Paul there was nothing for him to resign from.

奥克塔维奥告诉保罗，他没有什么可以辞职的。

And the next month, the Honduran supreme court ruled the project unconstitutional.

下个月，洪都拉斯最高法院裁定该项目违宪。

The dot was dead.

那个点死了。

So the question is, could this big, ambitious idea actually have worked if things had been a little different in Honduras?

所以问题是，如果洪都拉斯的情况有所不同，这个雄心勃勃的宏大想法真的能奏效吗？

You could definitely imagine if Paul Romer were different, if he were better with people, was a little more sensitive to politics and who gets credit, things would have gone differently.

你绝对可以想象，如果保罗·罗默与众不同，如果他能更好地与人相处，对政治和谁得到赞扬更加敏感，事情就会有所不同。

And maybe they'd be building a brand-new city in Honduras right now, at least that's what Octavio and Carlos told us.

也许他们现在会在洪都拉斯建造一座全新的城市，至少奥克塔维奥和卡洛斯是这么告诉我们的。

We ran this by Paul.

我们是由保罗负责的。

And by the way, it's not easy to say to someone, they just didn't like you.

顺便说一句，对某人说并不容易，他们只是不喜欢你。

We told Paul it started to seem to the Hondurans like you were bossing them around and taking all the credit.

我们告诉保罗，在洪都拉斯人看来，你开始对他们发号施令，并把所有的功劳都揽在了自己身上。

Paul says if that's what this is about, that's ridiculous.

保罗说，如果这就是问题所在，那就太荒谬了。

If hurt feelings over those kind of things are what killed this whole project, that's just such an amazing tragedy.

如果对这些事情的伤害是导致整个项目失败的原因，那真是一场令人震惊的悲剧。

All this other stuff about hurt feelings and who gets credit and all that other stuff should be set aside, and all of the attention has to be focused on, what can we do that works?

所有这些关于感情受伤、谁得到荣誉以及所有其他东西的东西都应该放在一边，所有的注意力都必须集中在，我们能做些什么才有效？

And what's disappointing, and I think really tragic, is that that isn't what happened here.

令人失望的是，我认为真正悲惨的是，这并不是这里发生的事情。

Then as an outsider, all I can do is go find another country to go work with.

那么作为一个局外人，我能做的就是去找另一个国家去工作。

Paul told us that in the next country he finds, he'll pretty much handle himself the way he did in Honduras, which, I got to say, makes it hard to see how he'll get different results.

保罗告诉我们，在他找到的下一个国家，他几乎会像在洪都拉斯那样处理自己，我不得不说，这使得很难看出他将如何获得不同的结果。

But no matter who is promoting this project, no matter how politically sensitive or savvy they are, this is always going to be a long shot.

但无论谁在推动这个项目，无论他们在政治上多么敏感或精明，这永远是一个渺茫的机会。

I mean, what government anywhere doesn't care about ego and who gets credit?

我的意思是，哪个地方的政府不关心自我以及谁得到了荣誉？

What government is going to be willing to overturn its own laws and go up against entrenched interests?

哪个政府会愿意推翻自己的法律并对抗既得利益呢？

It's just hard to imagine this really working out.

很难想象这真的有效。

But Octavio, like Paul, is still optimistic.

但奥克塔维奥和保罗一样，仍然很乐观。

Despite everything, he still believes one of these cities is going to happen.

尽管如此，他仍然相信其中一个城市将会发生。

There will be a country that will adopt it.

将会有一个国家采用它。

I'm more than positive that this will happen somewhere.

我非常肯定这会在某个地方发生。

I don't know where.

我不知道在哪里。

And it will be a success.

这将会是成功的。

And when people see that happening somewhere else in the world, I think that that will be followed by many countries all over the developing world.

当人们看到世界其他地方发生这种情况时，我认为发展中国家的许多国家也会效仿。

Octavio's best hope for that right now is probably Paul Romer.

奥克塔维奥目前最大的希望可能是保罗·罗默。

Paul is back on the road.

保罗又上路了。

He says he's got a lead in North Africa.

他说他在北非处于领先地位。

Chana Joffee-Walt and Jacob Goldstein from Planet Money , which is a co-production of NPR News and our program.

《金钱星球》的查纳·乔菲-沃尔特 (Chana Joffee-Walt) 和雅各布·戈德斯坦 (Jacob Goldstein) 是 NPR 新闻和我们节目的联合制作。

To get their free-- free-- podcast and their blog, with economic reporting that actually makes sense and is listenable, go to npr.org/money.

要获取他们的免费播客和博客，以及真正有意义且易于收听的经济报告，请访问 npr.org/money。

Well, our program was produced today by Sarah Koenig and myself, with Alex Blumberg, Ben Calhoun, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Brian Reed, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.

好吧，我们今天的节目是由莎拉·柯尼格和我本人以及亚历克斯·布伦伯格、本·卡尔霍恩、米基·米克、乔纳森·门吉瓦尔、布莱恩·里德、罗宾·塞米恩、艾丽莎·希普和南希·厄普代克共同制作的。

Our senior producer's Julie Snyder.

我们的高级制片人朱莉·斯奈德。

Production help from Tarek Fouda.

Tarek Fouda 提供制作帮助。

Seth Lind is our operations director.

塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的运营总监。

Emily Condon's our production manager.

艾米丽·康登是我们的生产经理。

Elise Bergerson's our administrative assistant.

埃莉斯·伯格森是我们的行政助理。

Music help from Damien Graef, from Rob Geddis.

Damien Graef 和 Rob Geddis 提供音乐帮助。

[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, where we link to our completely redesigned Android app, thisamericanlife.org.

[致谢] 我们的网站，其中链接到我们完全重新设计的 Android 应用程序 thisamericanlife.org。

You can also get that on Google Play, and of course we have apps for iPhone and iPad.

您也可以在 Google Play 上获取该应用程序，当然我们也有适用于 iPhone 和 iPad 的应用程序。

This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.

《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。

WBEZ management oversight for our program by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia.

我们的老板 Torey Malatia 先生对我们的项目进行 WBEZ 管理监督。

You know, he guest-taught a journalism class this week and told them what you need to include in any successful radio story.

你知道，他本周客座教授了一门新闻课，并告诉他们在任何成功的广播故事中都需要包含什么。

I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life .

我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。

中文为机器翻译，仅供参考。