48: Justice - This American Life
You are using an outdated browser.
您正在使用过时的浏览器。
Please upgrade your browser or activate Google Chrome Frame to improve your experience.
请升级您的浏览器或激活 Google Chrome 浏览器内嵌框架以改善您的体验。
Sign up for a free Life Partners trial, and you can watch the video “A Night of Stories and Improv.”
注册免费试用《Life Partners》，您可以观看视频“故事与即兴表演之夜”。
00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #48 | January 3, 1997 48: Justice Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 48 集 | 1997 年 1 月 3 日 48：正义注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Act One: International Justice Ira Glass What's it take to put the past behind us?
第一幕：国际正义 Ira Glass 如何才能将过去抛在脑后？
What's it take for a whole country to do it?
整个国家需要做什么才能做到这一点？
Consider this story.
考虑一下这个故事。
After World War II, the Nuremberg trials documented German war crime atrocities and the Holocaust.
第二次世界大战后，纽伦堡审判记录了德国的战争罪行暴行和大屠杀。
But Germans didn't accept it.
但德国人不接受。
Historians have noted that, as far as the Germans were concerned, Nuremberg wasn't real justice.
历史学家指出，对于德国人来说，纽伦堡并不是真正的正义。
It was just a bunch of outsiders coming in after the war, imposing victor's justice.
那只是一群战后进来的外来者，强加胜利者的正义。
It wasn't until the 1960s, when the Germans held their own homegrown war crimes trials, that the Germans were forced to face what they'd done as a nation during the war.
直到 20 世纪 60 年代，德国人自行进行了战争罪审判，德国人才被迫面对他们作为一个国家在战争期间所做的一切。
And even that wasn't enough.
即便如此还不够。
As one writer put it, it took an accumulation of a million school visits to concentration camps, 1,000 books, the Hollywood television series, Holocaust, a vast molecular reckoning between generations that's still going on.
正如一位作家所说，这需要一百万次学校参观集中营、一千本书籍、好莱坞电视剧《大屠杀》、代际之间仍在进行的大规模分子清算的积累。
Well, from WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
嗯，来自 WBEZ 芝加哥，这是《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today on our program, how to come to peace with the past, stories of people running toward and running from the truth and shame.
今天在我们的节目中，我们将讲述如何与过去和平相处，以及人们奔向和逃离真相和耻辱的故事。
Act One, International Justice, an entire nation coming to grips with the past--or actually, not coming to grips with the past.
第一幕，国际正义，整个国家正视过去——或者实际上，没有正视过去。
Act Two, Juvenile Justice, criminals face their past-- juvenile criminals.
第二幕，少年司法，罪犯面对他们的过去——少年罪犯。
We have a report from Scott Carrier.
我们收到了斯科特·卡里尔的报告。
Act Three, Everyday Justice, ordinary New Yorkers confessing their sins, quietly, in public.
第三幕，日常正义，普通纽约人在公共场合悄悄地承认自己的罪行。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One.
第一幕。
Well, ever since the end of World War II, there's been this idealistic notion kicking around that when nations do horrible things, the best way to deal with it, to put those things to rest, would be to have a court somewhere, a court for war crimes, for crimes against humanity.
嗯，自第二次世界大战结束以来，一直存在着一种理想主义的观念，即当国家做出可怕的事情时，处理它、让这些事情停止的最好方法就是在某个地方设立一个法庭，一个审判战争罪、反人类罪的法庭。
And now, for the first time since the Nuremberg and Tokyo trials at the end of World War II, a court like this is actually in session.
现在，自二战结束时的纽伦堡审判和东京审判以来，这样的法庭第一次真正开庭。
This is the war crimes tribunal for the former Yugoslavia.
这是前南斯拉夫战争罪法庭。
Just like the Nuremberg trials, this is justice administered by outsiders.
就像纽伦堡审判一样，这是由局外人主持的正义。
These trials are happening far from the Balkans.
这些试验是在远离巴尔干地区的地方进行的。
They're in the Hague, in the Netherlands.
他们在荷兰海牙。
There are lawyers and judges from Egypt, and France, and Sri Lanka, and Canada, and lots of Americans there.
那里有来自埃及、法国、斯里兰卡和加拿大的律师和法官，还有很多美国人。
Kitty Felde is a familiar voice to public radio listeners for her coverage of the O.
基蒂·费尔德 (Kitty Felde) 因其对 O 的报道而成为公共广播听众熟悉的声音。
J.
J。
Simpson trial and the Rodney King beating trial, but over the course of the last year, she spent several weeks in the Hague, watching this new form of justice take place.
辛普森案审判和罗德尼·金殴打审判，但在去年的过程中，她在海牙呆了几个星期，观看这种新形式的正义的发生。
Gabrielle Kirk McDonald is arguably the most powerful African-American woman in the world, but you've probably never heard of her.
加布里埃尔·柯克·麦克唐纳可以说是世界上最有权势的非裔美国女性，但您可能从未听说过她。
McDonald is the presiding judge for the first international war crimes trial in half a century.
麦克唐纳担任半个世纪以来首次国际战争罪审判的主审法官。
As she sits in her judicial robes week after week inside the courtroom, it becomes clear that Judge McDonald is like most Americans when it comes to things foreign.
当麦克唐纳法官一周又一周穿着法官袍坐在法庭上时，很明显，在涉及外国事物时，麦克唐纳法官和大多数美国人一样。
We can't read the maps.
我们看不懂地图。
Mr. [?
先生。 [？
Doko ?] was from [?
Doko ?] 来自 [?
Boski-- ?] [?
博斯基——？] [？
Boskisamic, ?] maybe, was he?
博斯基萨米克，？]也许，是吗？
Somewhere up there, as I recall.
我记得在上面的某个地方。
We don't know the history, and we have the devil of a time pronouncing the names.
我们不了解历史，而且我们有一个时代的恶魔来发音这些名字。
The witness, Mr. Gros-- Grovs-- Grovesdenat--
证人，格罗斯先生——格罗夫斯——格罗夫斯德纳特——
Anyway, he testified.
无论如何，他作证了。
Kitty Felde But Judge McDonald also brings to the tribunal another American attribute-- her idealism.
基蒂·费尔德 但麦克唐纳法官还给法庭带来了另一个美国特质——她的理想主义。
I love the law.
我热爱法律。
I like solving problems, and I think, for, certainly, a racial minority, I think that the use of our laws in the United States is the way that we bring about equality and inclusion.
我喜欢解决问题，而且我认为，对于少数族裔来说，我认为在美国使用我们的法律是我们实现平等和包容的方式。
And McDonald isn't the only American working at the tribunal.
麦克唐纳并不是在该法庭工作的唯一美国人。
By the time you left [UNINTELLIGIBLE], about 90% of the Muslim community had been killed, forced out.
当你离开[无法辨认]时，大约 90% 的穆斯林社区已被杀害、被迫离开。
Prosecutor Alan Tieger is on loan to the tribunal from the Department of Justice.
检察官艾伦·蒂格是从司法部借调到法庭的。
About two dozen American lawyers, investigators, and other experts have been seconded-- or loaned out-- to the tribunal, their salaries paid by the US government.
大约有两打美国律师、调查人员和其他专家被借调或借调到法庭，他们的工资由美国政府支付。
Americans make up the largest legal community at the tribunal.
美国人是该法庭最大的法律群体。
The contingent is so large, some complain that through sheer numbers, they're turning what's supposed to be a brand-new legal system into something that looks a lot like US Constitutional law.
队伍规模如此之大，一些人抱怨说，仅凭人数，他们就将本应是全新的法律体系变成了看起来很像美国宪法的体系。
Most of the Americans are here out of a sense of moral conviction.
大多数美国人来到这里是出于道德信念。
Alan Tieger, like Judge McDonald, was a civil rights lawyer.
艾伦·蒂格和麦克唐纳法官一样，都是一名民权律师。
He was one of the prosecutors at the federal Rodney King beating trial.
他是联邦罗德尼·金殴打案审判的检察官之一。
His parents were Holocaust survivors.
他的父母是大屠杀幸存者。
The prosecution's chief investigator, Terree Bowers, says he came to the Hague to do work of significance to humankind.
检方首席调查员泰里·鲍尔斯 (Terree Bowers) 表示，他来到海牙是为了从事对人类具有重要意义的工作。
But from the start, his new job presented challenges he never faced in his old position as head of the US Attorney's Office in Los Angeles.
但从一开始，他的新工作就给他带来了他在担任洛杉矶美国检察官办公室主任的旧职位上从未遇到过的挑战。
I mean, when we went into Tuzla, we flew into the airport, and the next morning, the Serbs started shelling the airport.
我的意思是，当我们进入图兹拉时，我们飞进机场，第二天早上，塞尔维亚人开始炮击机场。
So we weren't even able to get out.
所以我们根本没能出去。
Where you have to dodge artillery, and some areas you just can't get into, immediately, we knew that we were up against an enormous challenge to put these cases together.
在你必须躲避炮火的地方，以及一些你无法进入的区域，我们立刻就知道，将这些案例放在一起将面临着巨大的挑战。
There were all sorts of challenges.
遇到了各种各样的挑战。
And one thing in particular that Americans, and other non-Yugoslavs at the tribunal found so very difficult to understand-- the now familiar stories of neighbor turning against neighbor, almost overnight.
尤其是美国人和法庭上的其他非南斯拉夫人发现非常难以理解的一件事——邻里反目成仇的故事现在已经耳熟能详，几乎在一夜之间。
Judge McDonald asked witness after witness about this, over and over again.
麦克唐纳法官一遍又一遍地向证人询问此事。
I guess my question, and perhaps it's not a fair question, I don't know that you could give a complete answer, but perhaps you can help me to understand since I am not from that area, how could you explain that some of the atrocities that we've heard have been committed?
我猜我的问题，也许这不是一个公平的问题，我不知道你能否给出完整的答案，但也许你可以帮助我理解，因为我不是来自那个地区，你如何解释我们所听到的一些暴行已经发生？
How can you explain that something like that would happen, given your background, given your experience, knowing that Serbs and Muslims lived together, went to school together, intermarried?
考虑到你的背景和经历，你知道塞尔维亚人和穆斯林生活在一起，一起上学，通婚，你如何解释会发生这样的事情？
How did it happen?
它是怎么发生的？
She never found an answer that satisfied her.
她始终没有找到令她满意的答案。
And as the trial wore on, she and other judges found themselves searching for something in their own experiences to explain it.
随着审判的进行，她和其他法官发现自己在自己的经历中寻找一些东西来解释这一点。
And that raises this question, what does it mean when people with one sort of history are trying and judging people with a very different sort?
这就提出了一个问题，当具有一种历史的人尝试和评判具有截然不同历史的人时，这意味着什么？
The International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia is now in session.
前南斯拉夫问题国际刑事法庭目前正在开庭。
[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Please be seated.
[讲外语] 请入座。
It was back in May of 1993 that the United Nations Security Council set up the tribunal at the urging of the US and Western Europe.
早在1993年5月，联合国安理会就在美国和西欧的敦促下设立了该法庭。
At the time, NATO was resisting pleas from the Bosnians to come to their aid in the war, and cynics suggested that the West set up the tribunal simply because it was easier to commit lawyers than troops.
当时，北约拒绝了波斯尼亚人在战争中提供援助的请求，愤世嫉俗者认为西方设立法庭只是因为派遣律师比派遣军队更容易。
Some people feel that the tribunal was created as kind of an apology because the world community wasn't doing anything.
有些人认为，设立该法庭是为了道歉，因为国际社会没有采取任何行动。
Again, Judge McDonald.
再次，麦克唐纳法官。
Gabrielle Kirk Mcdonald I don't care.
加布里埃尔·柯克·麦克唐纳 我不在乎。
I don't care what their reason was.
我不在乎他们的理由是什么。
The point is that we have been established.
关键是我们已经成立了。
And I think that we're making a contribution.
我认为我们正在做出贡献。
But to see just how difficult it is to make a contribution, consider the case of Witness L.
但想知道做出贡献有多么困难，请考虑一下 L 号见证人的例子。
The tribunal allows witnesses who fear for their lives to testify behind closed doors, their identities secret.
法庭允许那些担心自己生命安全的证人闭门作证，他们的身份是保密的。
Witness L explained to the tribunal that he was a guard at one of the Serb-run prison camps, where he witnessed the tribunal's first defendant, a Bosnian Serb karate teacher named Dusan Tadic, commit more crimes.
证人 L 向法庭解释说，他是塞族管理的一个战俘营的看守，在那里他亲眼目睹了法庭第一名被告、一位名叫杜桑·塔迪奇的波斯尼亚塞族空手道教师犯下更多罪行。
The prosecution had other witnesses who told of Tadic delivering brutal beatings, but L was the only credible witness who saw Tadic rape and kill people.
检方还有其他证人讲述了塔迪奇实施残酷殴打的情况，但 L 是唯一目睹塔迪奇强奸和杀人的可信证人。
L testified about one incident where 10 elderly men were taken into the infamous white house, the scene of most tortures at the Omarska prison camp.
L 就一起事件作证，当时 10 名老人被带进臭名昭著的白宫，奥马尔斯卡战俘营中酷刑最多的地方就是这里。
According to L, Tadic pointed to him and said, "Come here and perform the killing of these 10 prisoners." L answered, "Why me?
据L称，塔迪奇指着他说：“过来，执行对这10名囚犯的杀戮。” L回答：“为什么是我？
Why do I have to do it?" Tadic apparently grew impatient.
为什么我必须这么做？”塔迪奇显然变得不耐烦了。
L said Tadic approached the prisoners and shot two of them in the head, point blank.
L说，塔迪奇走近囚犯，近距离向其中两人的头部开枪。
It was dramatic, damning testimony, the strongest brought forward by the prosecution.
这是一个戏剧性的、具有毁灭性的证词，是检方提出的最有力的证词。
Unfortunately, it wasn't true.
不幸的是，事实并非如此。
Two months after L's initial court appearance, prosecutors had to stand before the court and admit that L had lied on the stand.
L 首次出庭两个月后，检察官不得不出庭承认 L 在证人席上撒谎。
He had never been a camp guard.
他从来没有当过集中营看守。
He'd never witnessed the alleged atrocities.
他从未目睹过所谓的暴行。
He'd never even seen Dusan Tadic in person until he walked into the courtroom.
在走进法庭之前，他从未见过杜桑·塔迪奇本人。
Prosecution investigator Robert Reid told the court L was a Bosnian Serb soldier.
检方调查员罗伯特·里德告诉法庭，L 是一名波斯尼亚塞族士兵。
He said he'd been caught by the Bosnian Muslim army, and then was coerced into testifying.
他说他被波斯尼亚穆斯林军队抓获，然后被迫作证。
He said that after his initial interview by the military, he was transferred to Sarajevo, where he spoke with police interrogators for seven hours a day, for about one month.
他说，在接受军方初次审讯后，他被转移到萨拉热窝，在那里他每天与警方审讯人员交谈七个小时，持续了大约一个月。
The purpose of these conversations was to train Witness L to give evidence against [UNINTELLIGIBLE] Tadic.
这些对话的目的是训练证人 L 提供针对[无法理解]塔迪奇的证据。
I then asked him why he'd pleaded guilty to something that he had never done, and he stated that he'd been threatened that if he did not cooperate with the Bosnian authorities, that he'd be executed.
然后我问他为什么要承认自己从未做过的事情，他说他受到威胁，如果他不与波斯尼亚当局合作，他就会被处决。
In the weeks since then, the prosecution says it's uncovered new evidence that shows the Bosnian Serb government didn't coach Witness L.
此后的几周内，检方表示，他们发现了新的证据，表明波斯尼亚塞族政府并没有指导证人 L.
At this point, it's unclear what to believe of his testimony, and the whole episode raises disturbing questions for the Americans and Western Europeans who first pushed for the establishment of the international criminal tribunal.
目前还不清楚他的证词该相信什么，整个事件给最初推动建立国际刑事法庭的美国人和西欧人提出了令人不安的问题。
If these trials were designed to get at the truth, they were being tainted by a witness who lied.
如果这些审判的目的是为了查明真相，那么它们就被撒谎的证人玷污了。
If they were trying to bring justice to the victims, it was those victims-- the Muslims, in this case-- who were fabricating evidence, trying to swing the verdict their way.
如果他们试图为受害者伸张正义，那么正是这些受害者——在本案中是穆斯林——捏造了证据，试图改变判决。
The accused, would you rise, please, and state your identity, Mr. Erdemovic.
被告，请起立并表明你的身份，埃尔德莫维奇先生。
Drazen Erdemovic.
德拉赞·埃尔德莫维奇。
I was born in Tuzla in 1971.
我 1971 年出生在图兹拉。
I'm a Croat by nationality.
我的国籍是克罗地亚人。
Thus far, the tribunal has only handed down one sentence.
到目前为止，法庭只做出了一项判决。
It's a case where no one disputes the basic facts of the crime.
这是一个没有人对犯罪的基本事实提出异议的案件。
This was the case of Drazen Erdemovic.
德拉赞·埃尔德莫维奇就是这样的例子。
It's a story of a man who risked his life and his freedom to tell the world the truth about what he'd done.
这是一个男人冒着生命和自由的危险向世界讲述他所做的事情的真相的故事。
Erdemovic is 25, a baby-faced kid with acne scars.
埃尔德莫维奇今年 25 岁，长着一张娃娃脸，脸上有痤疮疤痕。
He's Croatian.
他是克罗地亚人。
His wife is a Serb.
他的妻子是塞尔维亚人。
They have a young son.
他们有一个年幼的儿子。
Erdemovic was trained as a tool and dye maker.
埃尔德莫维奇接受了工具和染料制造师的培训。
But by the time he had learned his trade, the war had broken out, so he became a career soldier, and served with all three armies during the war.
但当他学会这门手艺时，战争爆发了，所以他成为了一名职业军人，并在战争期间在所有三支军队服役。
But he says he chose combat units that conducted reconnaissance missions and manned border checkpoints, jobs where he didn't have to kill anyone.
但他说，他选择了执行侦察任务和驻守边境检查站的作战部队，这些工作他不需要杀死任何人。
Until July of 1995, that's when his special battalion of the Bosnian Serb army, the 10th sabotage unit, was ordered to a farm field near Pilica.
直到1995年7月，他所在的波斯尼亚塞族军队第10破坏部队特种营奉命前往皮利察附近的一个农田。
It was shortly after the fall of Srebrenica.
那是斯雷布雷尼察陷落后不久。
The UN had set up a safe area there, where 25,000 Bosnian Muslims had fled for protection.
联合国在那里设立了一个安全区，25,000 名波斯尼亚穆斯林逃到那里寻求保护。
But when the Bosnian Serb army attacked, the tiny UN force didn't offer much resistance.
但当波斯尼亚塞族军队发起进攻时，这支小规模的联合国部队并没有做出太多抵抗。
In fact, UN peacekeepers helped load Muslim men onto buses that took them away, never to be seen again.
事实上，联合国维和人员帮助穆斯林男子登上巴士，然后将他们带走，从此再也没有出现过。
Erdemovic and his unit had been given instructions on how to kill large numbers of people in a short period of time.
埃尔德莫维奇和他的部队接到了如何在短时间内杀死大量人员的指示。
And then the buses started arriving.
然后公共汽车开始到达。
The first group of 10 wore blindfolds, their hands tied behind their backs.
第一组10人都戴着眼罩，双手反绑在背后。
Erdemovic and his comrades were then ordered to shoot the prisoners in the back.
随后，埃尔德莫维奇和他的战友奉命从囚犯背后射击。
I was sorry for those people, simply.
我为那些人感到抱歉，简单地说。
I had no reason to shoot at those people.
我没有理由向那些人开枪。
They had done nothing to me.
他们没有对我做什么。
But Erdemovic emptied his rifle again and again, killing as many as 100 of the 1,200 killed that day.
但埃尔德莫维奇一次又一次打空步枪，导致当天阵亡的 1200 人中多达 100 人死亡。
Your honor, I had to do this.
法官大人，我不得不这么做。
If I had refused, I would've been killed together with the victims.
如果我拒绝，我就会和受害者一起被杀。
When I refused, they told me, if you're sorry for them, stand up, line up with them, and we will kill you, too.
当我拒绝时，他们告诉我，如果你对不起他们，就站起来，和他们站在一起，我们也会杀了你。
Erdemovic's unit was then ordered to a nearby town where, perhaps, 500 other Bosnian Muslims were being held inside a meeting hall.
随后，埃尔德莫维奇的部队被命令前往附近的一个城镇，那里的会议厅内可能还关押着另外 500 名波斯尼亚穆斯林。
He and his unit were ordered to kill them as well.
他和他的部队也被命令杀死他们。
Erdemovic says, this time, he did refuse, saying, wasn't there enough blood?
埃尔德莫维奇说，这一次，他确实拒绝了，他说，血还不够吗？
Weren't there enough dead people?
死的人还不够多吗？
Erdemovic says he didn't care what happened to himself anymore.
埃尔德莫维奇说他不再关心自己发生了什么。
He told American prosecutor Mark Harmon, "I didn't want to become a robot for extermination."
他告诉美国检察官马克·哈蒙，“我不想成为一个被灭绝的机器人。”
Are you able to estimate how many people you killed?
你能估计一下你杀了多少人吗？
I don't know exactly.
我不太清楚。
I can't estimate.
我无法估计。
But to be quite frank, I'd rather not know how many people I killed.
但坦白说，我宁愿不知道我杀了多少人。
Erdemovic's refusal to kill again did not go unnoticed by his comrades.
埃尔德莫维奇拒绝再次杀人的行为并没有被他的战友们忽视。
A few days later, in a bar fight, one of them shot him four times.
几天后，在一场酒吧斗殴中，其中一人向他开了四枪。
Erdemovic says it was because they knew he couldn't keep his mouth shut.
埃尔德莫维奇说，这是因为他们知道他无法闭嘴。
And he couldn't.
但他不能。
Erdemovic says after the massacre, he couldn't sleep.
埃尔德莫维奇说，大屠杀发生后，他无法入睡。
He stayed away from home and drank.
他远离家乡，酗酒。
After he had partially recovered from the gunshot wounds, he says he finally decided to tell his story to the war crimes tribunal.
他说，在枪伤部分恢复后，他最终决定向战争罪法庭讲述自己的故事。
But there was no tribunal representative anywhere nearby.
但附近没有任何法庭代表。
So he went to the American embassy in Belgrade.
于是他去了美国驻贝尔格莱德大使馆。
They gave him a list of news agencies.
他们给了他一份通讯社名单。
He called the first one on the list and told his story to a stringer for ABC News.
他给名单上的第一个打电话，并向美国广播公司新闻的特约记者讲述了他的故事。
Unfortunately, the phones were tapped, and the reporter's tapes were confiscated at the airport.
不幸的是，电话被窃听，记者的录音带在机场被没收。
Erdemovic was quickly arrested, but not before he had talked to another reporter with the Paris daily paper, Le Figaro.
埃尔德莫维奇很快被捕，但在此之前他与巴黎日报《费加罗报》的另一位记者交谈。
His story of the Pilica massacre was translated and retold all over the world.
他关于皮利卡大屠杀的故事被翻译并传遍了世界各地。
Erdemovic eventually made his way to the tribunal, where he told his story again.
埃尔德莫维奇最终来到法庭，再次讲述了自己的故事。
I just wanted the truth to be known, and for someone to understand that this actually happened, and how these people had lost their lives.
我只是想让人们知道真相，让人们了解这件事确实发生过，以及这些人是如何丧生的。
Because as we heard today, nobody knew about the place of Pilica, that a crime had happened there, and what kind of crime.
因为正如我们今天所听到的，没有人知道皮利卡这个地方，也没有人知道那里发生了一起犯罪事件，以及是什么样的犯罪事件。
Perhaps that's where most people were killed.
也许那是大多数人被杀的地方。
And to have someone believe me, that I really had to do it, that I didn't want to do it, that's why.
让有人相信我，我真的必须这样做，我不想这样做，这就是原因。
Judges deciding his case had a difficult time understanding how Erdemovic got himself into such a no-win situation.
审理此案的法官很难理解埃尔德莫维奇是如何陷入如此双赢的境地的。
Why didn't he just flee the country?
他为什么不直接逃离这个国家呢？
Erdemovic explained, you couldn't get a passport until you'd completed your military service.
埃尔德莫维奇解释说，服完兵役后才能获得护照。
And by then, the war had broken out.
那时，战争已经爆发了。
Egyptian judge Fouad Riad questioned why he kept enlisting in the army.
埃及法官福阿德·里亚德质疑他为何继续参军。
You pleaded very much the cause of peace.
您极力主张和平事业。
At the same time, you happened to join all the fighting groups during this war.
与此同时，你恰好加入了这场战争中的所有战斗团体。
Wasn't there any other way to express your belief in coexistence?
难道就没有其他方式来表达你对共存的信念吗？
How shall I put it?
我该怎么说呢？
We were forced to join the army.
我们被迫参军。
I had received those call-up papers.
我已经收到了那些征召令。
I had no one to turn to.
我没有人可以求助。
Who was I?
我是谁？
I was just a simple Drazen Erdemovic with nobody who would listen to me.
我只是一个简单的德拉赞·埃尔德莫维奇（Drazen Erdemovic），没有人愿意听我的。
Erdemovic grew increasingly frustrated at the judges' questioning.
埃尔德莫维奇对法官的提问越来越沮丧。
He cried several times on the stand.
他在看台上哭了好几次。
At one point, he and the French judge Claude Jorda began shouting at each other in their native languages, neither one waiting for translation.
有一次，他和法国法官克洛德·若尔达开始用母语互相大喊大叫，两人都没有等待翻译。
[SPEAKING FRENCH].
[说法语]。
Drazen Erdemovic I was against the war.
德拉赞·埃尔德莫维奇一世反对战争。
I didn't want the war.
我不想要战争。
I had no motives.
我没有动机。
I had no motivation to go to war.
我没有动力去参战。
Is there anyone here who can understand me?
这里有人能理解我吗？
My wife is a Serb.
我的妻子是塞尔维亚人。
Was I supposed to hate her because she is a Serbian?
我应该因为她是塞尔维亚人而恨她吗？
I apologize, but let me explain this to you.
我很抱歉，但让我向你解释一下。
I do understand this, but this is the 12th time that I'm repeating my story, the story of how my life has been destroyed.
我确实理解这一点，但这是我第12次重复我的故事，我的生活如何被毁的故事。
Please try to understand me.
请尝试理解我。
This is the 12th time I'm doing this.
这是我第 12 次这样做。
Erdemovic even pulled up his shirt to show the two-foot scar on his belly, the result of several operations to repair damage done by his comrade's bullets.
埃尔德莫维奇甚至拉起衬衫，露出腹部两英尺长的伤疤，这是他为修复战友子弹造成的损伤而进行的多次手术的结果。
Judge Jorda was unmoved.
乔达法官不为所动。
I understand that it is painful for you.
我理解这对你来说是痛苦的。
We understand that you were caught in a storm, but that is not a reason for us, just like that, to say that these many, many people who were killed simply will be written off.
我们知道你们陷入了一场风暴，但这并不是我们这样说这么多很多遇难者将被注销的理由。
Prosecutors say they never would have known what had happened to those 1,200 victims if Erdemovic had not come forward.
检察官表示，如果埃尔德莫维奇没有挺身而出，他们永远不会知道这 1,200 名受害者发生了什么。
Yet the tribunal judges sentenced him to 10 years behind bars for his role in the killings, dismissing his claims that he had no choice but to shoot.
然而，法庭法官因他在杀戮中所扮演的角色而判处他 10 年监禁，驳回了他关于他别无选择只能开枪的说法。
The judges said they only had his word on it.
评委们表示，他们只听过他的话。
So here, the tribunal has sentenced its first war criminal, a kid they have in custody only because he chose to come forward and tell his story.
因此，法庭在这里对第一个战犯进行了宣判，他是一个被他们拘留的孩子，只是因为他选择站出来讲述他的故事。
And yet, the colonel who gave the orders to shoot hasn't even been charged with a crime.
然而，下令开枪的上校甚至没有被指控犯罪。
And while General Ratko Mladic, the military men at the top, has been indicted, he, like dozens of other indicted war criminals, remains a free man.
尽管军事高层拉特科·姆拉迪奇将军已被起诉，但他和其他数十名被起诉的战犯一样，仍然是自由人。
Is this justice, punishing only the small fish?
只惩罚小鱼，这就是正义吗？
Louise Arbour, the Canadian chief prosecutor at the tribunal, gets angry when Erdemovic is described as a little fish.
当埃尔德莫维奇被描述为一条小鱼时，该法庭的加拿大首席检察官路易丝·阿布尔 (Louise Arbour) 感到愤怒。
How small a fish can you be when you're prepared to admit to the killing of 100 people?
当你准备承认杀害了 100 个人时，你能成为一条多么小的鱼呢？
By any national standard, this would be the biggest crime in the history of that country.
按照任何国家标准，这都将是该国历史上最大的犯罪行为。
And so I find that level of cynicism a bit disconcerting, that people are saying, well, don't waste my time with mere killers of hundreds, I'd like to see killers of thousands.
所以我发现这种程度的愤世嫉俗有点令人不安，人们说，好吧，别把我的时间浪费在杀死数百人的杀手上，我想看到杀死数千人的杀手。
Which brings us to the biggest problem facing the tribunal.
这给我们带来了法庭面临的最大问题。
Unlike most criminal justice systems, the tribunal has no police force of its own.
与大多数刑事司法系统不同，该法庭没有自己的警察部队。
And so it has no way of bringing fugitives to justice.
因此它无法将逃犯绳之以法。
The Yugoslav tribunal has indicted 75 people so far.
南斯拉夫法庭迄今已起诉75人。
One has died, seven are in custody, and the rest are working and living free in the former Yugoslavia.
一人死亡，七人被拘留，其余人在前南斯拉夫自由工作和生活。
Under the Dayton Accord, the Bosnian, Serbian, and Croatian governments are supposed to hand over indicted war criminals living in their territories.
根据《代顿协议》，波斯尼亚、塞尔维亚和克罗地亚政府应移交居住在其领土上的被起诉的战犯。
With rare exceptions, this hasn't happened.
除了极少数例外，这种情况还没有发生。
Under Dayton, NATO troops are also authorized to make arrests of any indicted war criminals they encounter.
根据代顿协议，北约部队还有权逮捕他们遇到的任何被起诉的战犯。
The joke at the tribunal is that NATO troops have to cross the street not to run into them.
法庭上的一个笑话是，北约部队必须过马路才能不撞到他们。
If the international community doesn't follow through with its commitment to the tribunal, if indicted war criminals are allowed to remain free, it sends exactly the opposite message from the one Americans at the tribunal were hoping to send.
如果国际社会不履行对法庭的承诺，如果允许被起诉的战犯继续逍遥法外，那么它就会发出与法庭上美国人希望发出的完全相反的信息。
It says, essentially, that future Karadzics and Mladics can commit any atrocities they want, and the world won't bother to bring them to justice.
从本质上讲，它说未来的卡拉季奇和姆拉迪奇可以犯下任何他们想要的暴行，而世界不会费心将他们绳之以法。
The Dutch, like most Europeans, are not a particularly church-going people.
和大多数欧洲人一样，荷兰人并不是一个特别去教堂的民族。
Every small town boasts of a beautiful cathedral, but it's usually empty.
每个小镇都拥有一座美丽的大教堂，但它通常是空的。
When a holiday called [?
当假期称为[?
Tweede ?] Pinksteren rolled around one Monday, none of the locals in the court knew it was, and we foreigners had to consultant a liturgical calendar to find out it was the second day of Pentecost.
Tweede？] Pinksteren 在一个星期一左右滚动，法庭上的当地人都不知道这一天，我们外国人必须查阅礼拜日历才能发现这是五旬节的第二天。
So here in the midst of this rather secular society is a trial about another society, where religious divisions became a matter of life and death.
因此，在这个相当世俗的社会中，存在着对另一个社会的考验，在另一个社会中，宗教分歧成为生死攸关的问题。
And in this setting, those who come to work every day at the tribunal are the truly faithful.
在这种情况下，那些每天来法庭工作的人都是真正的忠实者。
The world community won't arrest the criminals they indict, those who fought the war don't seem particularly interested in the truth about it, the international media ignores what they're doing, but still, the lawyers and the judges come in and examine evidence, they work on their cases, true believers in the idea that the rule of law is the only way to create a lasting peace.
国际社会不会逮捕他们起诉的罪犯，那些参加战争的人似乎对战争的真相并不特别感兴趣，国际媒体忽视他们正在做的事情，但律师和法官仍然介入并审查证据，他们致力于案件，真正相信法治是创造持久和平的唯一途径。
Sitting there day after day, I remembered an old Islamic proverb that says one hour of doing justice is worth 100 in prayer.
日复一日地坐在那里，我想起了一句古老的伊斯兰谚语：一小时的伸张正义胜过一百小时的祈祷。
They come to this brick temple of a courthouse every day to do their praying by working for justice, even if no one hears their prayer.
他们每天都会来到这座法院的砖砌寺庙，通过为正义而努力来祈祷，即使没有人听到他们的祈祷。
[PRAYING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Ira Glass That story by Kitty Felde.
[用外语祈祷] 艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 基蒂·费尔德 (Kitty Felde) 的故事。
There's this remarkable essay about war crimes trials and national truth commissions by Michael Ignatieff, in the current issue of Index on Censorship.
迈克尔·伊格纳季耶夫 (Michael Ignatieff) 在最新一期的《审查索引》中发表了一篇关于战争罪审判和国家真相委员会的精彩文章。
Ignatieff is writing a book on truth and national reconciliation, and he's examining the war crimes trial in the Hague, and the one in Rwanda, and the truth commissions in Argentina, and Chile, and South Africa, the situation in Ireland.
伊格纳季耶夫正在写一本关于真相与民族和解的书，他正在研究海牙的战争罪审判、卢旺达的审判、阿根廷、智利和南非的真相委员会以及爱尔兰的局势。
And in this essay, he writes, "It's open to question whether justice or truth actually heals.
在这篇文章中，他写道：“正义或真理是否真的能治愈疾病，这是一个值得商榷的问题。
For one thing," he says, "what you see as the truth depends on who you are."
一方面，”他说，“你所看到的真相取决于你是谁。”
He tells this story.
他讲述了这个故事。
In June of 1996, he was asked to chair a discussion of historians from Serbia, Croatia, and Bosnia.
1996年6月，他受邀主持塞尔维亚、克罗地亚和波斯尼亚历史学家的讨论会。
And all of these had been people who had opposed the war.
而这些人都是反对战争的人。
Most of them, in fact, had been close friends before the war.
事实上，他们中的大多数人在战前都是亲密的朋友。
And they hadn't given in to the national hatreds inflamed by the war.
他们并没有向战争所激起的民族仇恨屈服。
They'd remained friends.
他们仍然是朋友。
It was about 30 people.
大约有30人。
And I got them around a table, and I asked them, at one point, don't you think it would be possible for you all to get together and produce a history of the war that is a simple narrative of how this catastrophe happened to your three societies?
我让他们围坐在一张桌子旁，我问他们，有一次，你们不认为你们有可能聚在一起写出一部战争史，简单地叙述这场灾难是如何发生在你们三个社会的吗？
There was a kind of deafening silence after I made this liberal, well-meaning proposal.
在我提出这个自由、善意的建议后，大家陷入了一种震耳欲聋的沉默。
And people then just said, a common history is impossible.
然后人们就说，共同的历史是不可能的。
We couldn't do it.
我们做不到。
We couldn't even agree what events should be included.
我们甚至无法就应该包括哪些活动达成一致。
We couldn't even agree on when the war began.
我们甚至无法就战争何时开始达成一致。
I mean, some people think the war began in June 1991 when the JNA tanks marched into Slovenia.
我的意思是，有些人认为战争始于 1991 年 6 月，当时 JNA 坦克开进斯洛文尼亚。
Other people think the war began in '85 and '86 when Serbian nationalism began to take off.
其他人认为战争始于 85 年和 86 年，当时塞尔维亚民族主义开始兴起。
Even simple factual questions become, in other words, questions of attribution of responsibility and questions of guilt.
换句话说，即使是简单的事实问题也变成了责任归属问题和罪责问题。
I mean, it'll take generations, and I'm not sure that outsiders can do it.
我的意思是，这需要几代人的时间，而且我不确定外人能否做到。
It's like a family trauma.
这就像家庭创伤。
And as a family, they will have to talk it out.
作为一个家庭，他们必须把这件事说出来。
But it will take 30, 40, 50 years.
但这需要30年、40年、50年。
So what do you make of this notion of the Americans and the other foreigners who are holding the tribunal that, OK, we're going to get at the truth?
那么，您如何看待主持法庭的美国人和其他外国人认为，好吧，我们将了解真相？
Well, I don't want to be cynical about that, because I think juridical truth is terribly important.
嗯，我不想对此愤世嫉俗，因为我认为司法真相非常重要。
And here, I think, outsiders can play a limited role, because an outsider can say, here are the forensic facts about certain war crimes, and we can establish them.
我认为，在这里，局外人可以发挥有限的作用，因为局外人可以说，这是关于某些战争罪的法医事实，我们可以确定它们。
An international tribunal can establish what war crimes happened, where, by whom, and to whom.
国际法庭可以确定战争罪发生的地点、实施者以及对象。
There's no guarantee that that truth will then reach out through the society at large, but at least it constitutes one kind of place, somewhere, where honest men can find what actually happened.
无法保证真相会在整个社会中传播开来，但至少它构成了一种地方，诚实的人可以在其中找到实际发生的事情。
Absolutely a first step.
绝对是第一步。
And it would be naive to think that when the tribunal winds up its work in so many years' time, and all the volumes of evidence are published, that this is of itself going to make much difference.
如果认为法庭在多年后完成工作、所有证据都已公布，这本身就会产生很大的影响，那就太天真了。
I mean, the really scary thing is the sense in which in a lot of Serbian society and Croatian society, the conclusions and even the evidence of the Hague are discounted before it's even heard, as being, you know, this kind of alien enemy, nobody understands this but ourselves, that kind of line.
我的意思是，真正可怕的是，在很多塞尔维亚社会和克罗地亚社会中，海牙的结论甚至证据甚至在被听到之前就被打折扣了，因为你知道，这种外来的敌人，除了我们自己之外，没有人理解这一点。
You know, no one understands the Serbs but the Serbs, no one understands the Croats but the Croats, no one understands the Muslims but the Muslims, and therefore, anything that an international tribunal says to them has to be wrong.
你知道，除了塞尔维亚人，没有人了解塞尔维亚人；除了克罗地亚人，没有人了解克罗地亚人；除了穆斯林，没有人了解穆斯林，因此，国际法庭对他们说的任何话都一定是错误的。
It's such an interesting contrast to a place like South Africa where, as you point out in your essay, you have former adversaries actually sitting down trying to create a government, trying to create a nation where all sides are represented.
这与像南非这样的地方形成了有趣的对比，正如你在文章中指出的那样，你的前对手实际上坐下来试图建立一个政府，试图建立一个各方都有代表的国家。
And so when they sit down and hold a truth commission themselves, not outsiders but they, themselves, because they are ready to reconcile and have been part of a process of reconciliation, there's a place for that truth to go.
因此，当他们坐下来，亲自召开真相委员会时，不是外人，而是他们自己，因为他们已经准备好和解，并且已经成为和解进程的一部分，那么真相就有了一个地方。
It can actually have an effect.
其实是可以起到一定效果的。
There's a readiness for it.
我们已经做好了准备。
Yes.
是的。
The tragedy in the Balkans is that, at the moment, there's no place for the truth to go, because the regimes that are in power, all of them-- and I include the Muslim side-- are not regimes which really allow, and welcome, and let the truth circulate freely.
巴尔干地区的悲剧在于，目前真相无处可去，因为所有当权的政权——包括穆斯林方面——都不是真正允许、欢迎、让真相自由传播的政权。
And until they are, the Hague tribunal will be crying in the wilderness.
在此之前，海牙法庭将在荒野中哭泣。
In his essay, Michael Ignatieff raises this question.
迈克尔·伊格纳季耶夫 (Michael Ignatieff) 在他的文章中提出了这个问题。
To come to terms with the past, do entire nations have to go through the same psychological processes that a person goes through when they face the past?
为了接受过去，整个国家是否都必须经历与一个人面对过去时所经历的相同的心理过程？
In other words, does there have to be a moment of admitting the truth, of admitting guilt, of feeling shame?
换句话说，是否必须有一个承认真相、认罪、感到羞耻的时刻？
We look at a few of those moments, in a very different setting, in a minute, when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续进行时，我们会在一个非常不同的环境中观察其中的一些时刻。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme, bring you radio monologues, miniature documentaries, found tape, anything we can think of on that theme.
当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一个主题，为您带来广播独白、微型纪录片、找到的磁带以及我们能想到的有关该主题的任何内容。
Today's program, what puts the past to rest?
今天的节目，是什么让过去尘埃落定？
We are at Act Two, kids.
孩子们，我们现在处于第二幕。
There's a program in Tucson, Arizona that says, basically, the reason teenagers do so badly in the juvenile justice system is that they're tried and convicted not by their peers-- that is, by other teenagers-- but by adults, outsiders.
亚利桑那州图森市有一个项目称，青少年在少年司法系统中表现如此糟糕的原因基本上是因为他们不是由同龄人（即其他青少年）审判和定罪，而是由成年人、局外人审判和定罪。
Scott Carrier visited a Tucson courtroom set up with the premise that teenagers would be tried and convicted by other teenagers.
斯科特·卡里尔参观了图森的一个法庭，该法庭的设立前提是青少年将受到其他青少年的审判和定罪。
I'm guilty.
我有罪。
One minute into the first trial the prosecuting attorney stands up to examine the witness.
第一次审判一分钟后，检察官站起来询问证人。
She's beautiful, a knockout blond in a tight black cashmere sweater.
她很漂亮，金发碧眼，穿着紧身黑色羊绒毛衣。
She's maybe 17, but in teen court, everyone has a role to play, and she plays the prosecutor very well.
她大概 17 岁，但在青少年法庭上，每个人都有自己的角色要扮演，而她扮演的检察官非常出色。
Why didn't you go to your room, was the question that your attorney asked you, and you can't answer that?
你为什么不去你的房间，这是你的律师问你的问题，而你却无法回答？
Why didn't you go to your room?
你为什么不去你的房间？
You have no idea why you wouldn't go to your room?
你不知道为什么你不去你的房间吗？
No. Scott Carrier The boy on the stand is 12, still with baby fat, hair slicked back to look cool.
不，斯科特·卡里尔（Scott Carrier） 看台上的男孩 12 岁，仍然有婴儿肥，头发向后梳，看起来很酷。
His crime was to file a false report to 911, said his mom was hitting him.
他的罪行是向 911 提交虚假报告，称他的妈妈正在打他。
Umm, sort of.
嗯，有点。
Teen Prosecutor What is it used for?
青少年检察官 它有什么用？
To help people.
帮助人们。
Teen Prosecutor It's an emergency-only type of phone call, like if there's an intruder in your house, or someone really is abusing you to the point of where you're scared for your life.
青少年检察官 这是一种仅限紧急情况的电话，例如您的房子里有入侵者，或者有人真的虐待您，以至于您担心自己的生命安全。
Do you think this fits into an emergency?
您认为这适合紧急情况吗？
I mean, now that you can think about it, do you think that you should have called them?
我的意思是，现在你可以考虑一下，你认为你应该给他们打电话吗？
No. Scott Carrier The mother tells me her son is a Tohono O'odham Indian, that she adopted him when he was five, and that he's always been angry-- angry at her, angry at a lot of things.
不。 斯科特·卡里尔 这位母亲告诉我，她的儿子是托霍诺·奥德汉姆印第安人，她在他五岁时收养了他，他一直很生气——对她生气，对很多事情生气。
They got into an argument.
他们发生了争执。
The boy said, "Why don't you just hit me?
男孩说：“你为什么不打我？
Go ahead, hit me." And she did.
来吧，打我。”她做到了。
She slugged him in the arm, and the boy called 911.
她猛击了他的手臂，男孩拨打了 911。
There are about 250 teen courts in 30 states around the country, and their number is increasing rapidly, because they seem to work.
全国 30 个州大约有 250 个青少年法庭，而且数量正在迅速增加，因为它们看起来很有效。
In Tucson, the recidivism rate for kids who go through teen court is only 8%, compared with 37% for kids who go through regular juvenile court for similar minor offenses.
在图森，通过青少年法庭审理的孩子的累犯率仅为 8%，而因类似轻微犯罪而通过普通少年法庭审理的孩子的累犯率为 37%。
The social workers, judges, lawyers, and the policemen who work and volunteer for teen court are convinced that it's a good program.
在青少年法庭工作和志愿服务的社会工作者、法官、律师和警察都相信这是一个很好的计划。
They surround the kids with attention, try to show them that they care, that there's a whole community that cares.
他们关注孩子们，试图向他们表明他们关心他们，整个社区都在关心他们。
But if you ask them why it works, they usually say it's the jury process of having the kids explain themselves and their actions to a jury of their peers, other teenagers, and then hearing their response, that this has an unusual, even amazing, rehabilitative effect.
但如果你问他们为什么会起作用，他们通常会说这是一个陪审团过程，让孩子们向同龄人、其他青少年组成的陪审团解释自己和他们的行为，然后听到他们的反应，这有一个不寻常的、甚至是惊人的康复效果。
In this case, however, this part of the process seems to be more about shame.
然而，在这种情况下，这部分过程似乎更多的是关于羞耻。
Are you aware that you provoked your mother to hit you?
你知道是你惹你妈妈打你的吗？
It sounds to me like you provoked her, didn't you?
我觉得你好像激怒了她，不是吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Teen Prosecutor Why would you want your mother to hit you?
少年检察官 你为什么要让你妈妈打你？
To see what she would do.
看看她会做什么。
Teen Prosecutor Why?
少年检察官 为什么？
I don't know.
我不知道。
Teen Prosecutor So it was like an experimentation.
青少年检察官 所以这就像一个实验。
You were testing your mother to see if she'd actually hit you?
你是在测试你妈妈是否真的打了你？
Yeah.
是的。
Teen Prosecutor Why would you do that to somebody, especially your mother?
青少年检察官 你为什么要这样对别人，尤其是你的母亲？
In theory, if things were to go as planned, the boy as offender, as breaker of the law, should tell the jury that he recognizes his responsibility for the offense and its consequences, and apologize, and say he'll try not to do it again.
理论上，如果事情按计划进行，男孩作为罪犯、违法者应该告诉陪审团，他承认自己对罪行及其后果负有责任，并道歉，并表示他会尽量不再这样做。
But instead, up on the stand, he decides that maybe he wasn't so wrong in calling 911, that this wasn't the first time his mother hit him, and she hits his little brother, too.
但相反，在证人席上，他决定也许他拨打 911 并没有错，这不是他母亲第一次打他，而且她也打了他的弟弟。
This is a mistake, and in her closing argument, the prosecutor asks the jury to remember that the boy is not sorry, that he isn't admitting his responsibility.
这是一个错误，在结案陈词中，检察官要求陪审团记住，男孩并不后悔，他没有承认自己的责任。
Would the bailiff please take the jury to the jury room?
请法警带陪审团到陪审室好吗？
All rise.
全部崛起。
Scott Carrier The jury is comprised of eight teenagers.
斯科特·卡里尔 (Scott Carrier) 陪审团由八名青少年组成。
Seven of them have been in teen court before as defendants, and they're serving jury duty as part of their sentences.
其中七人曾作为被告在青少年法庭上出庭，作为判决的一部分，他们将担任陪审员。
The eighth juror is a girl who's doing this for credit at her private school.
第八位陪审员是一位女孩，她这样做是为了在私立学校获得学分。
She's eager to be the foreman of the jury.
她渴望成为陪审团主席。
She speaks right up and asks if there are any objections to her being the foreperson, and no one objects, of course, so she gets right down to it.
她直接问有没有人反对她担任领班，当然没有人反对，所以她就直接开始了。
I think he should get the self-esteem workshop, because it really seems like he needs that.
我认为他应该参加自尊研讨会，因为看起来他确实需要这个。
He called 911 for really no reason, and because of kids like him, kids who--
他毫无理由地拨打了 911，因为像他这样的孩子，孩子们——
They launch into a discussion where they say all the things that adults usually say about teenagers.
他们展开讨论，说出了成年人通常对青少年说的所有话。
The way he acted in there, it's not acceptable.
他在那里的表现是不可接受的。
I think he doesn't have respect for anything, and he doesn't take this seriously.
我认为他对任何事情都不尊重，也不认真对待这件事。
I don't think his parents hit him enough, or something.
我认为他的父母对他的打击还不够，或者其他原因。
He does what he wants, and he doesn't even listen to his mom or nothing.
他想做什么就做什么，甚至不听妈妈的话。
And he has, like, a real bad attitude.
而且他的态度真的很糟糕。
And like, he don't care what anybody thinks, and I think they should hit him, just to show him.
就像，他不在乎别人怎么想，我认为他们应该打他，只是为了向他展示。
I think that he needs to respect his parents more, which he doesn't, so when his mom says to go to his room, he should do it, instead of saying, hit me, mom, hit me.
我认为他需要更尊重他的父母，但他没有，所以当他妈妈说去他的房间时，他应该这样做，而不是说，打我，妈妈，打我。
Everyone's saying he should have respect for his elders, but I mean, we don't know what happened before he started provoking her.
每个人都说他应该尊重长辈，但我的意思是，我们不知道他开始挑衅她之前发生了什么。
Like, I don't know, I mean, like if she started cussing at him or something, I mean, she should have respect for him, too.
就像，我不知道，我的意思是，如果她开始咒骂他什么的，我的意思是，她也应该尊重他。
It's both ways.
这是双向的。
This girl is 13 years old, and really petite.
这个女孩今年13岁，身材娇小。
She's been in teen court twice already, once for possession of marijuana, and again for hitting her mother-- domestic violence.
她已经两次在青少年法庭上受审，一次是因为持有大麻，另一次是因为殴打母亲——家庭暴力。
We don't really know what really goes on in that house.
我们真的不知道那所房子里到底发生了什么。
We can't say that that was the first time he was hit.
我们不能说这是他第一次被击中。
Maybe he got hit a lot of times before.
也许他之前被打过很多次了。
She's the only jurist to try to see things from the boy's point of view, most likely because she's been there.
她是唯一一个尝试从男孩的角度看问题的法学家，很可能是因为她经历过。
She really is his peer.
她确实是他的同辈。
She gets into a lot of trouble, and fights with her mother.
她惹了很多麻烦，还和妈妈吵架。
She argues for the defendant, but the others will have none of it.
她为被告辩护，但其他人不会接受。
He's guilty and he's not sorry.
他有罪，而且他并不后悔。
He needs to be taught a lesson.
他需要接受教训。
Surprisingly, it turns out that the petite girl, even though she seems to understand the boy, she's willing to punish him just as much as any of the others.
令人惊讶的是，事实证明，这个娇小的女孩，尽管她似乎理解这个男孩，但她愿意像其他人一样惩罚他。
I ask her how she would help the boy, and she says she'd put him in juvenile jail.
我问她将如何帮助这个男孩，她说她会把他关进少年监狱。
Probably send him to juvie for maybe a couple days.
可能会把他送进少年监狱几天。
Have you been to juvie?
你去过少年吗？
Teen Juror 4 Yeah, for just a couple hours, though.
青少年陪审员 4 是的，不过只有几个小时。
Why is that a good thing?
为什么这是一件好事？
Why would it be a good thing for him?
为什么这对他来说是一件好事呢？
I don't know, just keep him away from his parents for a little bit.
我不知道，只是让他远离他的父母一段时间。
And that way he could see that if it happens again, he'll know where he'll be.
这样他就可以看到，如果这种情况再次发生，他就会知道自己会在哪里。
I've been told that teenage juries are notoriously more harsh in their sentencing than regular juvenile court judges, that perhaps this is because teenagers are being asked to act as adults, and they know from experience how adults act in these situations.
有人告诉我，青少年陪审团的判决比普通少年法庭法官更加严厉，这也许是因为青少年被要求像成年人一样行事，他们从经验中知道成年人在这些情况下会如何行事。
Adults punish.
大人惩罚。
Or perhaps, the kids, from experience, know what really works is to make it hurt.
或者，孩子们根据经验，知道真正有效的方法就是让它受伤。
The organizers and administrators of teen court try to discourage the idea of punishment.
青少年法庭的组织者和管理者试图阻止惩罚的想法。
They try, instead, to encourage corrective sentencing that will help the kids, teach them, not hurt them.
相反，他们试图鼓励纠正性判决，以帮助孩子、教导他们，而不是伤害他们。
There's the minimum sentence, consisting of jury duty, letters of apology, and a basic course in responsible decision-making.
最低刑罚包括陪审团义务、道歉信和负责任决策的基础课程。
But the jury can, if it decides the defendant needs additional corrections, require that he perform manual labor, such as painting over graffiti, or making him attend and successfully complete a self-esteem workshop, five one-and-a-half-hour sessions in which they learn skills for non-violent problem solving, and increasing belief in internal versus external control-over-life events.
但是，如果陪审团认为被告需要额外的纠正，则可以要求他进行体力劳动，例如在涂鸦上绘画，或者让他参加并成功完成自尊研讨会，五次为期一个半小时的课程，在课程中他们学习非暴力解决问题的技能，并增强对内部与外部控制生活事件的信心。
Topics include identification and expression of emotions, anger, safety planning, and personal power.
主题包括情绪、愤怒、安全计划和个人力量的识别和表达。
In this case, the case of the false report, since they cannot send the boy to prison, they send him to self-esteem workshops, two for good measure, and give him a day's labor in the community garden.
在这种虚假报告的情况下，由于他们无法将男孩送进监狱，所以他们将他送到自尊研讨会，两次是为了更好的措施，并让他在社区花园工作一天。
The next trial concerns a 13-year-old who was caught with a smoking bowl, a marijuana pipe out behind the school.
下一项审判涉及一名 13 岁的青少年，他在学校后面携带烟斗（即大麻管）被发现。
He's been suspended for five weeks, and his dad tells me this is excessive punishment, not constructive at all, because his son is just missing out on his classes, just sits at home all day.
他已被停学五周，他的父亲告诉我这是过度的惩罚，根本没有建设性，因为他的儿子只是错过了课程，整天坐在家里。
He says he thinks the teen court system is a good thing, better than the juvenile court, but basically, he just doesn't like seeing his son put through the wringer by anyone other than himself.
他说他认为青少年法庭系统是一件好事，比少年法庭更好，但基本上，他只是不喜欢看到他的儿子被除了他自己以外的任何人折磨。
On the stand, his son says he's sorry, that he knows he did something wrong.
在证人席上，他的儿子说他很抱歉，他知道自己做错了事。
He gets emotional, nearly starts crying, and I look over at his dad, and he's just hating it.
他变得情绪化，几乎开始哭泣，我看着他的父亲，他只是讨厌这样。
His son is 13 years old and big for his age.
他的儿子已经 13 岁了，对于同龄人来说已经是个大个子了。
His son is 13 years old and starting to be a man, and his son has just been shamed in public.
他的儿子已经13岁了，开始做人了，他的儿子刚刚被当众羞辱。
This time, in the jury room, nearly everyone is in favor of letting the defendant off easy.
这一次，在陪审团里，几乎所有人都赞成从轻处罚被告。
The private school girl wants to send him to self-esteem classes, but no one else seems to agree.
私立学校的女生想送他去自尊班，但其他人似乎都不同意。
That doesn't have nothing to do with this.
这和这件事没有任何关系。
I mean, he doesn't have low self-esteem.
我的意思是，他并不自卑。
Obviously, he doesn't.
显然，他不这么认为。
But she said the self-esteem workshop is not just self-esteem.
但她表示，自尊研讨会不仅仅是自尊。
Oh, I know, but all that's going to be, it's five classes, all that's going to be is something where he sits there and watches the clock the whole time.
哦，我知道，但那会是五节课，他会一直坐在那儿看着时钟。
Like, if I saw him on the street, just the way he looks, it doesn't look to me like he has low esteem.
就像，如果我在街上看到他，就他的样子而言，在我看来他并不自卑。
But she knows that he gets high, so now he has low esteem.
但她知道他变得很高，所以现在他的尊严很低。
I'm pretty sure that all of us, except for probably one person, have used marijuana, so we all know how it feels, and do all of us have low self esteem?
我很确定，除了一个人之外，我们所有人都吸过大麻，所以我们都知道那是什么感觉，我们所有人都自尊心低吗？
No?
不？
OK, then.
好吧，那么。
There's a jury monitor in the room, a professional social worker who's overseeing the deliberation, and it seems like things are not going in the direction she'd hoped for.
房间里有一名陪审团监督员，一名专业社会工作者正在监督审议，但事情似乎并没有朝着她希望的方向发展。
She tries to move the kids to a decision by taking a vote.
她试图通过投票来促使孩子们做出决定。
She counts four in favor of self-esteem and four against.
她数了四次赞成自尊，四次反对。
But I count four against, one in favor, and three who will not say one way or the other.
但我认为有四个人反对，一个人赞成，还有三个人不肯表态。
It turns into a discussion about who needs self-esteem, how to measure it, and that maybe they don't even know what self-esteem means.
它变成了关于谁需要自尊、如何衡量自尊的讨论，也许他们甚至不知道自尊意味着什么。
Then the little girl comes up with an idea.
这时，小女孩想出了一个主意。
She asks if the defendant has ever tried to commit suicide.
她询问被告是否曾试图自杀。
I'm wondering if he's ever tried to commit suicide.
我想知道他是否曾尝试过自杀。
I mean, people that try that probably have a low self-esteem.
我的意思是，尝试这样做的人可能自尊心很低。
So you want me to go ask him?
那你要我去问他吗？
Teen Juror 1 Yeah, because that's what you call low self-esteem.
青少年陪审员 1 是的，因为这就是你所说的低自尊。
OK, I'll be right back.
好的，我马上回来。
Scott Carrier While the social worker's out of the room, I ask the kids what they really think about marijuana.
斯科特·卡里尔（Scott Carrier） 当社会工作者离开房间时，我问孩子们对大麻的真实看法。
You know, if you had a party or something, [UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE] drinking, I think drinking messes you up more.
你知道，如果你参加聚会或其他什么活动，[难以理解的短语]喝酒，我认为喝酒会让你更加混乱。
You have more chances of dying than getting high.
你死亡的机会比吸毒的机会还多。
What do the rest of you think?
你们其他人怎么看？
You've been busted for marijuana.
你因吸食大麻而被捕。
She sells it, man.
她卖掉它，伙计。
Teen Juror 4 I don't anymore.
少年陪审员4 我不再这样了。
I mean, you can't really think bad about the people, because there's lots of different people that use it, and different reasons, and just different stuff.
我的意思是，你不能真的把人们想得不好，因为有很多不同的人在使用它，有不同的原因，而且只是不同的东西。
[UNINTELLIGIBLE] even the president got high.
[难以理解]连总统都兴奋了。
He did.
他做到了。
Teen Foreman He says he never inhaled.
青少年工头 他说他从未吸入过。
Well, he can say it all he wants, you know he did.
好吧，他想说什么就说什么，你知道他就是这么做的。
He says that if he had a chance, he would again.
他说，如果有机会，他还会再来。
Yeah, he probably would.
是的，他可能会的。
Teen Juror 2 Yeah, and that's the president.
青少年陪审员 2 是的，那就是总统。
I'd smoke a joint with him.
我会和他一起抽烟。
Scott Carrier So is this a bad person?
斯科特·卡里尔 那么这是一个坏人吗？
Is this guy a bad person for smoking?
这家伙是不是抽烟的坏人啊？
No. Teen Juror 2 I'm not judging him because he gets high, that's nothing.
不。青少年陪审员 2 我不是因为他吸毒而评判他，那没什么。
I don't even care.
我什至不在乎。
But it's not just his problem, it's society's problem.
但这不仅仅是他的问题，也是社会的问题。
We are part of society, and we're brought in here so he doesn't grow up doing it and become a bigger problem for society.
我们是社会的一部分，我们被带到这里，这样他就不会长大，成为社会的更大问题。
The one girl who's an outsider here, the one who goes to a private school, she doesn't let up, and it becomes clear that everyone else is turning against her.
那个女孩是这里的局外人，那个上私立学校的女孩，她并没有放松，很明显，其他人都在反对她。
I'm the only kid in my neighborhood who doesn't do it.
我是附近唯一不这样做的孩子。
I go to a private school, I go to a Catholic parochial school--
我上私立学校，我上天主教堂学校——
Exactly, I don't go to a private school, I go to--
确切地说，我不去私立学校，我去——
And I'm the only kid in the eighth grade who doesn't do it, because I have better stuff to do.
我是八年级唯一一个不这样做的孩子，因为我有更好的事情要做。
I want to go to college.
我想上大学。
I don't want my brain to turn into mush.
我不想让我的大脑变成糊状。
You know what, but if you get high one time--
你知道吗，但如果你有一次兴奋起来——
That's a stereotype.
这是一种刻板印象。
Teen Juror 1 It ain't going to hurt you.
青少年陪审员 1 它不会伤害你。
I don't care, I've done it, you know.
我不在乎，我已经做到了，你知道。
And I do it, but I still, I'm going to graduate this year, and it's there.
我做到了，但我仍然，我今年就要毕业，而且它就在那里。
I'm mean, it's stupid maybe that I do it, but that's your opinion, whatever [UNINTELLIGIBLE].
我的意思是，我这样做也许很愚蠢，但那是你的意见，无论如何[难以理解]。
Same here, man.
同样在这里，伙计。
I mean, I've smoked it through high school, and I'm still graduating this year.
我的意思是，我高中时一直在抽烟，今年我仍然要毕业。
Just because he smokes weed doesn't mean he's going to have a bad life like she said.
仅仅因为他吸大麻并不意味着他会像她说的那样过着糟糕的生活。
Chance of what?
机会是什么？
Teen Foreman Of him growing up smoking weed a lot.
青少年工头 他从小就吸食大麻。
Weed is the gateway drug.
杂草是入门药物。
The social worker comes back in the room and tells them that the defendant has never tried to kill himself, and because his self-esteem seems intact, because his crime is one most of the jurors have committed themselves, because they are united against the private school girl, they give him the minimum sentence.
社会工作者回到房间告诉他们，被告从未试图自杀，因为他的自尊似乎完好无损，因为他的罪行是大多数陪审员自己犯下的罪行之一，因为他们团结起来反对私立学校的女孩，所以他们给了他最低的刑期。
In the third trial, a 14-year-old girl is on the stand for physically assaulting a former friend.
在第三次审判中，一名 14 岁女孩因殴打前朋友而出庭。
The former friend had been spreading a rumor that she, the friend, had slept with the 14-year-old girl's boyfriend.
这位前朋友一直在散布谣言，称这位朋友与这名 14 岁女孩的男友睡过。
She said the boyfriend got her pregnant.
她说男朋友让她怀孕了。
The 14-year-old told her to stop, but she did it again to another boy, and another girlfriend.
这位 14 岁的女孩让她停下来，但她又对另一个男孩和另一个女朋友这样做了。
So the 14-year-old girl went over to her house, pulled her by her hair off the front steps and into the yard, and punched her in the face.
于是，这名 14 岁的女孩走到她家，抓住她的头发，将她从前台阶上拉到院子里，并打了她的脸。
Her defense attorney tries to get her to say she's sorry, that she won't do it again.
她的辩护律师试图让她道歉，不会再这样做了。
Why did you do what you did?
你为什么这么做？
14-year-old Defendant Bad temper.
14岁被告人脾气暴躁。
What are your feelings now about what you did?
您现在对自己所做的事情有何感受？
It really doesn't bother me, because I did it, and can't take it back, so.
这真的不困扰我，因为我已经做到了，而且无法收回，所以。
Thank you, no further questions, Your Honor.
谢谢您，没有其他问题了，法官大人。
Cross-examination.
交叉询问。
Teen Prosecutor Thank you, Your Honor.
青少年检察官 谢谢您，法官大人。
You lost your temper and got into a fight, right?
你发脾气然后打架了，对吗？
Because she provoked you?
因为她激怒了你？
Now, if I walked up here like this, and I started talking massive crap to your face, would you hit me because I provoked you?
现在，如果我像这样走到这里，并且开始当着你的面说很多废话，你会因为我激怒你而打我吗？
Maybe.
或许。
Teen Prosecutor Maybe.
青少年检察官也许吧。
It doesn't bother you now that you got in a fight?
现在你们吵架了，你就不介意了吗？
Fighting's an everyday thing.
打架是家常便饭。
It doesn't really make a big difference.
这并没有什么太大的区别。
It happens, then it's over.
它发生了，然后就结束了。
It happens then it's over?
发生了就结束了？
Everyday thing?
日常的事？
Yeah, it's not nothing.
是的，这并不是什么。
It's not like getting shot, or stabbed, or dying.
这不像被枪杀、被刺伤或死亡。
You just get a few marks, maybe.
也许你只得到一些分数。
It's against the law.
这是违法的。
Whether there's a gun, a knife, or dying involved, fighting is against the law, just like smoking, just like everything else, just like killing.
无论是持枪、持刀还是死亡，打斗都是违法的，就像吸烟，就像其他一切，就像杀戮一样。
It's against the law.
这是违法的。
It shouldn't be done.
这是不应该做的。
That's why you're here today.
这就是你今天来这里的原因。
Can you tell this jury that you're not going to fight again?
你能告诉陪审团你不会再打架了吗？
No. Teen Prosecutor No further questions.
不，青少年检察官 没有更多问题。
This trial has a different jury.
这次审判有不同的陪审团。
When they debate, no one mentions the statement by the defendant, that in her neighborhood, fighting is an everyday thing, no big deal, really.
当他们辩论时，没有人提到被告的陈述，即在她的社区，打架是家常便饭，没什么大不了的，真的。
It either just flew over their heads, or it doesn't make any difference to them.
它要么只是飞过他们的头顶，要么对他们来说没有任何区别。
The most important thing to them is that the defendant feels no remorse, has suffered no shame.
对他们来说最重要的是被告没有感到悔恨，没有遭受羞耻。
And like the first jury, somehow they're certain that shame is the essential ingredient, the first step in changing the criminal into a good citizen.
就像第一批陪审团一样，他们确信羞耻感是基本要素，是将罪犯转变为好公民的第一步。
She doesn't feel bad about it at all, you guys, so.
她对此一点也不感到难过，你们，所以。
Give her mandatory-- Teen Jury Yeah, mandatory self-esteem, the [UNINTELLIGIBLE].
给她强制性的——青少年陪审团 是的，强制性的自尊，[无法理解]。
How many jury duties, one?
有多少陪审员职责，一个？
Teen Juror 9 I think she should have more, like three.
青少年陪审员 9 我认为她应该有更多，比如三个。
Three, yeah, three.
三，是的，三。
Teen Juror 7 She's got to learn from other people.
青少年陪审员 7 她必须向其他人学习。
She doesn't even care, like, she just sits there like-- I think she should go to the self-esteem workshop a couple times.
她甚至不在乎，就像，她只是坐在那里——我认为她应该去几次自尊研讨会。
You know, you can give her two self-esteem workshops.
你知道，你可以给她举办两次自尊研讨会。
Can you really?
真的可以吗？
Teen Juror 8 Yeah, two workshops, maximum.
青少年陪审员 8 是的，最多两次研讨会。
I think we should.
我认为我们应该。
Teen Jury Oh, do that, do that.
青少年陪审团 哦，这样做，这样做。
Yeah, give her two.
是的，给她两个。
Scott Carrier Most members of the jury have already been through the workshops.
斯科特·卡里尔 (Scott Carrier) 评审团的大多数成员都已经参加过研讨会。
They know what the right answer is.
他们知道正确的答案是什么。
They get excited as they write the comments to the defendants.
当他们给被告写评论时，他们感到很兴奋。
Yeah, she needs to hear it.
是的，她需要听听。
She needs to feel somewhat bad about it.
她需要为此感到有些难过。
OK, we feel that there will be people that lie and cheat your whole life, to you--
好吧，我们觉得你这一生都会有人撒谎、欺骗你，对你——
You have to grow up.
你必须长大。
Teen Juror 8 Use your mind, not your muscles.
青少年陪审员 8 用你的头脑，而不是你的肌肉。
All that's good.
一切都很好。
Scott Carrier After they deliver the sentence, the defendant comes down off the stand, and I ask if she wants to talk to me for a little bit, but she looks at me as if she'd like to rip my throat out, like, where's my knife when I need it.
斯科特·卡里尔（Scott Carrier）宣判后，被告从证人席上走下来，我问她是否想和我谈谈，但她看着我，好像她想撕开我的喉咙，就像，当我需要的时候我的刀在哪里。
She's not been shamed.
她没有被羞辱。
In her neighborhood, fighting is an everyday thing, a way of life, a way of staying alive.
在她的社区，打架是家常便饭，是一种生活方式，一种生存方式。
Nobody understood what she was saying.
没有人明白她在说什么。
I follow her out of the courtroom and down the hallway, to the room where she'll have her exit interview.
我跟着她走出法庭，穿过走廊，来到她将进行离职面谈的房间。
I watch her sit down at a long wooden table, surrounded by social workers and police officers, and her body is there, but she is gone, checked out, no longer present for the proceedings.
我看着她坐在一张长木桌旁，周围都是社会工作者和警察，她的尸体就在那里，但她已经走了，被检查了，不再出席诉讼程序。
She just isn't going to listen anymore.
她只是不会再听了。
I can go in and sit down and watch as the administrators try to see whether she understands her sentence, as they try to get through to her, but I don't.
我可以进去坐下来，看着管理人员试图了解她是否理解她的句子，因为他们试图与她沟通，但我不明白。
Act Three, Everyday Justice.
第三幕，日常正义。
Well, the impulse to confess, to admit the truth, to state your shame, is so important and so basic that, of course, people do not need a trial to make them do it.
好吧，坦白、承认真相、说出你的耻辱的冲动是如此重要和基本，以至于人们当然不需要经过审判才能让他们这样做。
In 1980, a New Yorker named Allan Bridge set up a telephone line he called the Apology Line.
1980 年，一位名叫艾伦·布里奇 (Allan Bridge) 的纽约人开通了一条电话线，他称之为道歉热线。
People could call and confess to anything.
人们可以打电话承认任何事情。
They were recorded.
他们被记录下来。
And you could call and you could listen to other people's confessions recorded on the line.
你可以打电话，听录音中其他人的认罪。
Over time, the whole thing turned into a little community of confession.
随着时间的推移，整个事情变成了一个小小的忏悔社区。
People recorded messages responding to each other's apologies.
人们录制了回复彼此道歉的信息。
Mr. Apology, Allan Bridge, would leave messages responding.
道歉先生艾伦·布里奇会留言回复。
And sometimes he would actually contact callers off the line.
有时他实际上会离线联系呼叫者。
Here's some recordings from the line.
这是线路中的一些录音。
Yes, I'd like to apologize because I broke the town hall windows.
是的，我想道歉，因为我打破了市政厅的窗户。
I flooded the basement.
我淹没了地下室。
I broke windows on the back of a store uptown.
我打破了住宅区一家商店后面的窗户。
I feel pretty bad about it because I did so much vandalism.
我对此感到非常难过，因为我做了很多破坏行为。
I'm only 16 years old.
我才16岁。
I did so much vandalism, if I was caught, I'd be in juvie hall for a pretty long time, I'd say.
我做了这么多的破坏行为，如果我被抓住，我会在少年监狱里待很长时间，我想说。
I'm sorry for harassing the Republican officials, making the bomb threats and the death notices.
我很抱歉骚扰共和党官员，发出炸弹威胁和死亡通知。
I'm sorry for the terrorism, the firebombing that the guy paid me to do to some guy's house.
我对恐怖主义感到抱歉，那家伙付钱让我对某个人的房子进行燃烧弹袭击。
I'm sorry for-- ah, what else?-- the burnings in the streets of Smithtown, Long Island.
我对——啊，还有什么？——长岛史密斯敦街道上的纵火事件感到抱歉。
I'm sorry for the way I'm calling right now.
我对我现在打电话的方式感到抱歉。
I'm calling by way of a phony credit card.
我用假信用卡打电话。
I'm sorry for harassing the teacher in school.
我很抱歉在学校骚扰老师。
I feel bad about it.
我对此感觉很糟糕。
I'd like to have a new lease on life.
我想要重获新生。
What else?
还有什么？
I'm sorry for harassing a lot of people, for causing pain to my family.
我很抱歉骚扰了很多人，给我的家人带来了痛苦。
I felt so sad I was sick, I was sick by it.
我感到非常难过，我病了，我病了。
That's all I have to say.
我要说的就是这些。
Yeah.
是的。
So long.
这么久。
Hello, I'm Israeli.
你好，我是以色列人。
I want to apologize.
我想道歉。
I don't know if even what I did was wrong or right, but when I was in Israel six months before, I killed six Arabs at night with a gang of other Jewish settlers.
我什至不知道我所做的事是对是错，但六个月前我在以色列时，我在晚上和一帮其他犹太定居者一起杀死了六名阿拉伯人。
And at the time, we thought we were-- I believe still, we're fighting for our homeland, to keep it from the Arabs, but perhaps now that I am here in America, I realized that maybe killing is not the right way, and I want to apologize.
当时，我们认为我们——我仍然相信，我们正在为我们的祖国而战，不让它落入阿拉伯人的手中，但也许现在我来到了美国，我意识到也许杀戮不是正确的方式，我想道歉。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Yeah, I want to apologize for something.
是的，我想为一件事道歉。
And maybe, my guess is it's too late to apologize for it, but I want to apologize for it now.
也许，我猜现在道歉已经太晚了，但我现在想为此道歉。
My mother was bedridden for a while, and she used to get social security and welfare, and I had no job, and I had no way of making money.
我妈妈有一段时间卧床不起，以前都是拿社保和福利的，而我没有工作，也没有办法赚钱。
And when she was hungry or thirsty, I used to make her give me money to give her a drink.
当她饿了或渴了时，我常常让她给我钱给她喝水。
Like, she'd have to give me $5 for a glass of water, $10 for a sandwich.
比如，她必须给我 5 美元买一杯水，10 美元买一个三明治。
And now she's passed away, and I can't say I'm sorry to her, because I know what I did was probably the most horrible thing in the world.
现在她去世了，我不能对她说对不起，因为我知道我所做的可能是世界上最可怕的事情。
And I'll never be able to say I'm sorry to her.
我永远无法对她说对不起。
And I hope I go to hell and burn there for this, because it wasn't right.
我希望我能为此下地狱并被烧死，因为这是不对的。
And if there's somewhere that she can hear me, I just want to tell her I'm sorry.
如果她能在某个地方听到我说话，我只想告诉她我很抱歉。
Thank you.
谢谢。
I've never told anyone this, except my shrink.
我从来没有告诉过任何人这件事，除了我的心理医生。
I accidentally killed my younger sister when I was a very small child.
当我很小的时候，我不小心杀死了我的妹妹。
And it's haunted me all my life, because I didn't really mean it.
这件事困扰了我一生，因为我并不是故意的。
It was just a game to me.
这对我来说只是一场游戏。
I was really too young to realize what I was doing.
我真的太年轻了，无法意识到自己在做什么。
And I was putting her head inside a plastic garbage bag and putting a rubber band around her neck, just to see her face turn blue.
我把她的头放进塑料垃圾袋里，然后用橡皮筋套在她的脖子上，只是为了看到她的脸变成蓝色。
And I guess it was a lot of fun.
我想这很有趣。
And I didn't mean anything bad to happen, but I guess I didn't realize what would happen if I did this too long.
我并不是故意要发生任何不好的事情，但我想我没有意识到如果我这样做太久会发生什么。
And she suffocated.
她窒息了。
And I hid the plastic bag, and I went out of the house.
我把塑料袋藏起来，然后走出了家门。
My parents weren't home.
我父母不在家。
And they never found out.
但他们从未发现。
They thought it was crib death, they never found out I did it.
他们以为这是婴儿床死亡，但他们从未发现是我干的。
And you know, I've never been able to tell them.
你知道，我一直没能告诉他们。
I think it would hurt them worse than losing her, to find out that I did it.
我想如果他们发现是我干的，那对他们的伤害比失去她还要严重。
I kind of wish my parents could hear this tape, but I guess they never will.
我有点希望我的父母能听到这盘磁带，但我想他们永远不会。
Hi.
你好。
I'm a runaway, and all I want to say is that I'm kind of sorry that I left.
我是一个离家出走的人，我想说的是，我对我的离开感到有点遗憾。
See, I'm 15, and I saw your number in the newspaper.
看，我 15 岁了，我在报纸上看到了你的电话号码。
And when I saw it, I had to call, because it's like, I mean, you walk around on the streets all day long, just looking for someone who just might say, hey, want a place to go?
当我看到它时，我不得不打电话，因为这就像，我的意思是，你整天在街上走来走去，只是在寻找一个可能会说，嘿，想要一个地方去的人吗？
Come with me.
跟我来吧。
There could be food and everything.
可能有食物和一切。
And they won't ask for anything back.
他们不会要求任何回报。
That's all I want.
这就是我想要的。
I guess I take up too much time on the tape, but I've just got to talk.
我想我在录音带上花了太多时间，但我还是要说话。
The Apology Line doesn't exist anymore.
道歉热线不再存在。
Mr. Apology, Allan Bridge, died in August of 1995.
道歉先生艾伦·布里奇 (Allan Bridge) 于 1995 年 8 月去世。
When he did, the line was deluged with hundreds of messages from its regular callers, grieving.
当他这样做时，这条线路上充斥着数百条来自常来电者的悲伤信息。
His wife Marissa says it was never clear what the Apology Line had meant to people.
他的妻子玛丽莎说，人们一直不清楚道歉热线对人们意味着什么。
For years, people had used it to talk about all sorts of experiences.
多年来，人们一直用它来谈论各种经历。
I think that maybe the word apology means something bigger than just saying you're sorry.
我认为道歉这个词的含义可能比仅仅说抱歉更重要。
Or at least, maybe not the word, but the line came to mean to people a place where one could go and bring their feelings, to confess, not necessarily about doing something wrong, but to confess about having a feeling.
或者至少，也许不是这个词，但这条线对人们来说意味着一个可以去表达他们的感受的地方，承认，不一定是做错了什么，而是承认有一种感觉。
When he was alive, would you ever call the line, or be tempted to call the line?
当他还活着的时候，你会拨打热线，或者忍不住想拨打热线吗？
I called the line in the beginning.
我一开始就拨了电话。
When I first knew him, before I moved in with him, I called the line from time to time.
当我第一次认识他时，在我搬去和他一起住之前，我时不时地拨打电话。
Well, yeah, sometimes, but more to get his attention than anything else.
嗯，是的，有时，但更多的是为了引起他的注意。
So he wouldn't forget about me up in Washington Heights, where I was living.
所以他不会忘记我住在华盛顿高地的事。
What would you apologize for back then?
那时候你会因为什么而道歉？
Do you remember what you would say?
你还记得你会说什么吗？
They were all like, you know, just to get his attention.
他们都是，你知道，只是为了引起他的注意。
Things like, I'm really sorry I was flirting with another guy, or something like that, all very much part of the mating game.
比如，我真的很抱歉我和另一个男人调情，或者类似的事情，这些都是交配游戏的一部分。
And once you actually had a real relationship with him, you wouldn't call the line, and you didn't feel the need to ever?
一旦你真正和他建立了真正的关系，你就不会拨打电话，而且你也不觉得有必要这样做？
No, but one thing that really struck me was after he died, I really turned into an Apology Line caller, someone I would define as Apology Line caller.
不，但真正让我印象深刻的一件事是，在他去世后，我真的变成了道歉热线的拨打者，我将其定义为道歉热线的拨打者。
And the line was over, so when I really needed the line, it wasn't there.
而且线路已经结束了，所以当我真正需要线路时，它却不在那里。
I was just completely lost, and I would have loved to have been able to call the Apology Line and have someone like Allan on the other side, very sympathetic and understanding, to help me get through it.
我完全迷失了，我希望能够拨打道歉热线，并有像艾伦这样的人在另一边，非常同情和理解，帮助我度过难关。
But unfortunately, that didn't happen.
但不幸的是，这并没有发生。
So I'm a much darker person than I was before he died, and I think that I understand the callers and the line much better than I even did before.
所以我是一个比他死前更黑暗的人，而且我认为我比以前更了解打电话者和线路。
He died in this scuba accident where he was hit by a jet skier, who then fled the scene and wasn't caught.
他在这次水肺潜水事故中被一名喷气滑雪者撞死，随后这名滑雪者逃离了现场，没有被抓到。
Have you thought about the kinds of people who would call the line, who used to call the line all the time, who had done bad things to other people, and hurt other people, and you know, then would flee the scene and nobody would ever know?
你有没有想过，什么样的人会拨打热线，他们过去一直拨打热线，对别人做了坏事，伤害了别人，然后你知道，然后他们会逃离现场，没有人会知道？
Have you thought about those jet skiers in terms of that, in terms of the people who used to call the line?
你有没有想过那些摩托艇运动员，以及那些曾经打电话的人？
Yes.
是的。
In fact, the person that hit him would also be a prime candidate for the Apology Line, because we think that he knew that he did something, because there were witnesses that saw the accident, and they saw someone on a jet ski hit him, they circled around once and then took off, so yeah.
事实上，打他的人也是道歉热线的主要候选人，因为我们认为他知道自己做了什么，因为有目击者看到了事故，他们看到有人骑着摩托艇打了他，他们绕了一圈然后起飞了，所以是的。
But you can imagine those people actually calling the line.
但你可以想象那些人实际上拨打了热线。
If they would've called the line, if the line had existed for them, what would've happened?
如果他们拨打了该热线，如果该热线为他们而存在，会发生什么？
What would Mr. Apology have said if he were around to say it?
如果道歉先生在场，他会说什么？
I think he would be pretty pissed off, but he would forgive them.
我想他会很生气，但他会原谅他们。
I think that's how he would have gone for it.
我想他也会这么做的。
I think he would have been angry that he was hit.
我想如果他被打了，他一定会生气。
That was a total accident, but I think that if they would have apologized for hitting him, he would have forgiven them, because I think that forgiveness was a big part of his personality.
这完全是一个意外，但我认为如果他们为打他而道歉，他就会原谅他们，因为我认为宽恕是他性格的重要组成部分。
I think he really believed in the power of forgiveness, and everyone can be forgiven if they're sorry.
我认为他真的相信宽恕的力量，每个人如果道歉都可以被宽恕。
I think that's something that he really believed in.
我认为这是他真正相信的事情。
Marissa Bridge, Mrs. Apology.
玛丽莎·布里奇，《道歉夫人》。
Credits Ira Glass Well, our program was produced today by Alix Spiegel, Paul Tough, and myself, with Peter Clowney and Nancy Updike.
图片来源：Ira Glass 嗯，今天我们的节目是由 Alix Spiegel、Paul Tough 和我本人以及 Peter Clowney 和 Nancy Updike 制作的。
Contributing editors Jack Hitt and Margy Rochlin.
特约编辑杰克·希特和玛吉·罗克林。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] For information about the Apology Line, you can call this number, 212-255-2748.
[鸣谢] 有关道歉热线的信息，您可以拨打此号码：212-255-2748。
If you'd like a copy of any of our programs, call us at WBEZ in Chicago.
如果您想要我们的任何计划的副本，请致电我们位于芝加哥的 WBEZ。
They only cost $10.
它们只花费 10 美元。
The phone number, 312-832-3380, 312-832-3380.
电话号码：312-832-3380、312-832-3380。
Our email address, [email protected] .
我们的电子邮件地址，[电子邮件受保护]。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight by Torey Malatia, who reminds you that--
[资金来源] WBEZ 管理监督由 Torey Malatia 负责，他提醒您——
Weed is the gateway drug.
杂草是入门药物。
Ira Glass Sure is.
艾拉·格拉斯 当然是。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
Now if I start talking massive crap to your face, would you hit me because I provoked you?
现在，如果我开始当着你的面说废话，你会因为我激怒你而打我吗？
Maybe.
或许。
This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。