465: What Happened at Dos Erres - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #465 | May 25, 2012 465: What Happened at Dos Erres Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 465 集 | 2012 年 5 月 25 日 465：Dos Erres 发生的事情 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Oscar was 31, working two jobs with three little kids and a fourth on the way.
序言 艾拉·格拉斯·奥斯卡 (Ira Glass Oscar) 31 岁，带着三个孩子做两份工作，第四份工作即将开始。
His living room in Framingham, Massachusetts, a Boston suburb, was covered with toys, and in the kitchen in a corner were some trophies that he won as a bull fighter as a teenager back in Guatemala where he grew up.
他位于波士顿郊区马萨诸塞州弗雷明汉的客厅里堆满了玩具，厨房的一个角落里放着他十几岁时在危地马拉长大的斗牛士赢得的一些奖杯。
He'd been in the United States since he was 19, a dozen years.
他从19岁起就来到美国，十几年了。
And then, he had a strange phone call.
然后，他接到了一个奇怪的电话。
A woman from the public prosecutor's office back in Guatemala was looking for him.
危地马拉检察官办公室的一名女士正在寻找他。
Now, he was in the United States illegally.
现在，他非法居留在美国。
And he worried, could it be about that somehow?
他担心，会不会是因为这个？
And then, he spoke with this woman.
然后，他就和这个女人说话了。
Her name was Sara Romero, and it had nothing to do with that.
她的名字叫萨拉·罗梅罗，与此无关。
It was way stranger.
这真是太陌生了。
She had been looking into a massacre that had happened back in the early 1980s out in the countryside in a tiny town during Guatemala's civil war.
她一直在调查 20 世纪 80 年代初危地马拉内战期间在一个小镇的乡村发生的一场大屠杀。
And she believed Oscar was one of the survivors.
她相信奥斯卡是幸存者之一。
I was, like, confused.
我很困惑。
I didn't know what she was talking about.
我不知道她在说什么。
She said, "I know you don't know much about it or you probably don't know anything about it," because I was quiet.
她说，“我知道你对此了解不多，或者你可能对此一无所知”，因为我很安静。
I was just listening to what she was saying.
我只是在听她说的话。
Clearly, they have the wrong person, Oscar thought.
显然，他们找错了人，奥斯卡想。
He had never been to the little town where this massacre happened.
他从未去过发生这场屠杀的小镇。
He grew up far away from there.
他在远离那里的地方长大。
He didn't have any questions about his past.
对于自己的过去，他没有任何疑问。
In fact, he had a pretty idyllic childhood.
事实上，他有一个非常田园诗般的童年。
Yes, his mom had died when he was a baby.
是的，他的妈妈在他还是个婴儿的时候就去世了。
Yes, his dad was killed in a truck accident when he was four.
是的，他的父亲在他四岁时在一场卡车事故中丧生。
But his dad's mom, his grandmother, raised him comfortably.
但他爸爸的妈妈，也就是他的祖母，把他抚养长大。
He felt loved.
他感到被爱。
What Sara told Oscar was this.
莎拉告诉奥斯卡的是这样的。
The massacre that she was investigating happen in 1982, when Oscar was three at a village called Dos Erres.
她正在调查的大屠杀发生在 1982 年，当时奥斯卡三岁，住在一个叫多斯埃雷斯的村庄。
More than 200 people were killed there Sara had spoken to several soldiers who were at the massacre, and they told her that two boys had been spared.
那里有 200 多人被杀，萨拉与参与屠杀的几名士兵交谈，他们告诉她，有两个男孩幸免于难。
One of the boys, the soldier said, was taken by a lieutenant named Oscar Ramirez Ramos.
这名士兵说，其中一名男孩被一位名叫奥斯卡·拉米雷斯·拉莫斯的中尉带走。
That was Oscar's dad.
那是奥斯卡的父亲。
If Sara's suspicions were right, the man that Oscar thought was his father, the man he had looked up to his entire life, had stolen him from his biological family.
如果萨拉的怀疑是对的，那么奥斯卡认为是他父亲的那个男人，那个他一生仰慕的男人，把他从他的亲生家庭中偷走了。
His unit killed them and their entire village, Dos Erres.
他的部队杀死了他们和他们的整个村庄，Dos Erres。
Though, Sara says, when she first contacted Oscar--
不过，萨拉说，当她第一次联系奥斯卡时——
I told him about the two boys.
我告诉他那两个男孩的事。
We felt getting into any specifics about the participation of his dad so as not to hurt his feelings.
我们想了解有关他父亲参与的任何细节，以免伤害他的感情。
But I let him know that he could be one of the surviving boys.
但我让他知道他可能是幸存的男孩之一。
Well, today on our radio show, we have investigators trying to solve an unsolved murder of more than 200 people from the 1980s in a case that could potentially nudge the political climate of their entire country, and finally hold military officials responsible for massacres that happened there.
嗯，今天在我们的广播节目中，调查人员试图侦破 200 年代 200 年代的一起悬而未决的谋杀案，这起案件可能会影响整个国家的政治气候，并最终追究军方官员对那里发生的屠杀负责。
Just this week, the former president of the country was indicted for genocide in this case.
就在本周，该国前总统在此案中被指控犯有种族灭绝罪。
And at the center of the whole thing is a guy, Oscar Ramirez, who discovers that everything he thought about his past-- his dad, who he really is-- is all a lie.
整件事的中心人物是奥斯卡·拉米雷斯，他发现他对过去的一切想法——他的父亲，他的真实身份——都是谎言。
Oscar's DNA, the DNA of this guy in some Boston suburb, becomes the final piece of evidence in this case.
奥斯卡的 DNA，这个波士顿郊区某个人的 DNA，成为了这起案件的最后证据。
The idea is that if they could just prove with his DNA that he was stolen from Dos Erres, they could link the lieutenant who raised him and his unit to this massacre.
他们的想法是，如果他们能用他的 DNA 证明他是从多斯埃雷斯偷来的，他们就可以将养育他的中尉和他的部队与这场大屠杀联系起来。
For the very first time, they might bring high level soldiers and officers to justice for one of these massacres, which had never been done in Guatemala.
他们可能第一次将高级士兵和军官因其中一次大屠杀而绳之以法，这在危地马拉从未发生过。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.
这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Our program today is a co-production with ProPublica and the Fundacion MEPI in Mexico City.
我们今天的节目是与 ProPublica 和墨西哥城 MEPI 基金会联合制作的。
It has taken months to report and research.
报告和研究花了几个月的时间。
It is truly an amazing, heartbreaking tale that takes us deep inside some experiences that I think we all see headlines about that can often seem very far away and hard to imagine the reality of, that, as you'll hear, are not far away at all.
这确实是一个令人惊叹、令人心碎的故事，它让我们深入了解一些我认为我们都看到过的头条新闻的经历，这些经历往往看起来非常遥远，很难想象现实，正如你会听到的那样，它们根本就不远。
We're devoting our entire program to it.
我们将整个计划投入其中。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
OK, before we dive into this story, just a quick history review.
好的，在我们深入了解这个故事之前，先快速回顾一下历史。
Now, I myself was the kind of insufferable, politically correct person who was obsessed with Latin America back in the 1980s.
现在，我自己就是那种在 20 世纪 80 年代痴迷于拉丁美洲的令人难以忍受、政治正确的人。
I called Nicaragua "Neek-ar-ah-wah," and actually went to Nicaragua for a month during the fifth anniversary of the Sandinista revolution.
我称尼加拉瓜为“Neek-ar-ah-wah”，实际上在桑地诺革命五周年期间去了尼加拉瓜一个月。
I traveled in Guatemala during the civil war.
内战期间我在危地马拉旅行。
You, however, might be what we call a normal person and didn't do any of that.
然而，你可能就是我们所谓的正常人，并没有做任何这些事。
So to provide some context, I turned to Kate Doyle, who's testified as an expert witness in the trials of human rights abuses by senior military officials in Guatemala.
因此，为了提供一些背景信息，我求助于凯特·多伊尔，她在危地马拉高级军事官员侵犯人权的审判中作为专家证人出庭作证。
She's a senior analyst at a watchdog group in Washington, D.C., called the National Security Archive.
她是华盛顿特区一个名为国家安全档案馆的监督组织的高级分析师。
The violence in Guatemala made the country an outlier, because you don't have anything on the scale of what happened in that country in places like Peru or Argentina or Chile.
危地马拉的暴力事件使该国成为一个异类，因为在秘鲁、阿根廷或智利等地发生的暴力事件规模远不及该国。
And so when you talk about this, I picture, OK, somewhere in the back of your mind, there's a list of the ranking of most f'ed up countries in the region.
因此，当你谈论这个问题时，我会想象，好吧，在你脑海深处的某个地方，有一个该地区最烦躁国家的排名列表。
Right.
正确的。
Ira Glass And is Guatemala number one?
Ira Glass 危地马拉是第一吗？
Guatemala is way up there.
危地马拉遥遥领先。
Ira Glass Give me the rankings.
Ira Glass 给我排名。
OK, so number one f'ed up is?
好的，那么第一个问题是？
Honduras probably right now.
洪都拉斯可能就是现在。
Ira Glass Honduras?
艾拉·格拉斯洪都拉斯？
Honduras is bad.
洪都拉斯的情况很糟糕。
Ira Glass OK, and then number two?
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 好的，那么第二个呢？
Guatemala is pretty bad.
危地马拉的情况相当糟糕。
Ira Glass Pretty bad going back decades.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）几十年前的情况相当糟糕。
Starting in the 1960s, small guerrilla groups challenged what was a corrupt and repressive government.
从 20 世纪 60 年代开始，小型游击队向腐败和专制的政府发起挑战。
There was also a broader movement calling for political rights, land reform, workers' rights.
还有一场更广泛的运动呼吁政治权利、土地改革和工人权利。
This always met with brutal violence.
这总是会遭遇残酷的暴力。
Reformers were assassinated.
改革者被暗杀。
Civilian populations in the countryside were accused of harboring guerrillas and exterminated in the name of anti-communism.
农村的平民被指控窝藏游击队，并以反共主义的名义被消灭。
This violence peaked in the 1980s.
这种暴力行为在 20 世纪 80 年代达到顶峰。
These were essentially scorched earth operations.
这些基本上都是焦土行动。
Soldiers would sweep through targeted areas.
士兵们将扫荡目标区域。
They were using plans drafted by the Army High Command.
他们正在使用陆军最高司令部起草的计划。
And they would essentially kill everything in sight.
他们基本上会杀死眼前的一切。
She says that what's amazing is the pattern.
她说，令人惊奇的是这种模式。
You see the same techniques again and again.
您会一次又一次地看到相同的技术。
A warning-- this description gets violent.
警告——这种描述会变得暴力。
A patrol would enter the community, usually on market day when everybody was gathered.
巡逻队通常会在集市日进入社区，那时每个人都聚集在一起。
And they would immediately separate out the men from the women and children.
他们会立即将男人与女人和儿童分开。
And they would put them into some of the village's biggest buildings, like the school or the church.
他们会把它们安置在村里一些最大的建筑里，比如学校或教堂。
And then, the soldiers would proceed to destroy everything.
然后，士兵们就会开始摧毁一切。
They would burn the fields where the villagers grew their food.
他们会烧毁村民种植粮食的田地。
They would slaughter the animals.
他们会宰杀动物。
They would destroy the houses.
他们会摧毁房屋。
They would burn them to the ground.
他们会把他们烧成灰烬。
They would bring the men, then, out and execute them.
然后，他们会把这些人带出来处决。
They would then take the women and the children.
然后他们会带走妇女和儿童。
They would rape most of the girl children and the women.
他们会强奸大多数女童和妇女。
And then they would kill them.
然后他们就会杀掉他们。
This happened in over 600 villages, tens of thousands of people.
这种情况发生在600多个村庄、数万人中。
A truth commission found that the number of Guatemalans killed or disappeared by their own government was over 180,000.
真相委员会发现，被本国政府杀害或失踪的危地马拉人数量超过 18 万。
And unlike many other Latin American countries, none of the soldiers and leaders who did all this were held accountable.
与许多其他拉丁美洲国家不同的是，做出这一切的士兵和领导人都没有被追究责任。
Many of them transitioned into civilian government.
他们中的许多人转变为文职政府。
Most of them continued to be very notable, very prominent figures in Guatemalan society.
他们中的大多数人仍然是危地马拉社会中非常著名的人物。
For years, the government denied the massacres happened at all.
多年来，政府一直否认发生过大屠杀。
Even after a peace treaty with the rebels in 1996, a truth commission was set up but told specifically not to name names, not to gather evidence for trials.
即使在 1996 年与叛乱分子签订和平条约后，真相委员会还是成立了，但被明确告知不要点名，也不要收集审判证据。
No soldier or military leader was brought to justice for the massacres-- until Dos Erres and the investigation into what happened there.
直到多斯·埃雷斯对那里发生的事情进行调查之前，没有任何士兵或军事领导人因大屠杀而被绳之以法。
Several people were involved in reporting the story that you're about to hear.
有几个人参与了您将要听到的故事的报道。
There's Sebastian Rotella and Ana Arana.
其中有塞巴斯蒂安·罗特拉和安娜·阿拉纳。
There's our producer, Brian Reed, and Habiba Nosheen.
这是我们的制片人布莱恩·里德和哈比巴·诺辛。
Sometimes, you're going to hear Brian in the tape.
有时，你会在磁带中听到布莱恩的声音。
Habiba narrates this story.
哈比巴讲述了这个故事。
Here she is.
她在这里。
When investigators started looking into the Dos Erres massacre in the '90s, people trying to uncover the truth about that sort of thing were being killed like an anthropologist, Myrna Mack, who was trying to expose the details of the military's scorched earth campaign and then was stabbed 27 times by a member of the president's intelligence team.
当调查人员开始调查 20 世纪 90 年代的多斯埃雷斯大屠杀时，试图揭开此类事件真相的人们都被杀害，就像人类学家米尔娜·麦克一样，她试图揭露军队焦土行动的细节，然后被总统情报团队的一名成员刺了 27 刀。
Or like in 1998 when a Catholic bishop headed a truth commission that concluded that the military was behind the vast majority of the atrocities during the civil war.
或者就像 1998 年，一位天主教主教领导的真相委员会得出的结论是，军队是内战期间绝大多数暴行的幕后黑手。
Just two days after the report came out, he was found bludgeoned to death with a concrete block in his garage.
报告发布两天后，他被发现在车库里被一块混凝土块殴打致死。
But none of this stopped a woman named Aura Elena Farfan when she first started looking into rumors of a secret grave at a place called Dos Erres.
但当一位名叫奥拉·埃琳娜·法尔凡 (Aura Elena Farfan) 的女士第一次开始调查有关多斯埃雷斯 (Dos Erres) 地方有一座秘密坟墓的传言时，这一切都没有阻止她。
Aura looks like someone's grandmother.
奥拉看起来就像某人的祖母。
She's 72 years old with short, graying hair.
她今年 72 岁，头发灰白。
In 1984, a member of her family was disappeared.
1984年，她的一名家人失踪。
Aura suspected the military was behind it, so she and her brother started looking into what happened.
奥拉怀疑军方是幕后黑手，所以她和她的兄弟开始调查发生的事情。
Two months later, her brother vanished, too.
两个月后，她的哥哥也失踪了。
So Aura started an organization to investigate and bring these kinds of cases to justice.
因此奥拉成立了一个组织来调查此类案件并将其绳之以法。
And that's how she came across the massacre of Dos Erres.
这就是她遭遇多斯埃雷斯大屠杀的原因。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator At the beginning of 1994, we received reports of bones being found just on the surface of the Earth.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 1994 年初，我们收到报告称在地球表面发现了骨头。
And in addition, there were reports of a well.
此外，还有报道称有一口井。
The well, Aura heard, had bodies inside of it.
奥拉听说，井里有尸体。
It was in the jungle, located in what used to be the village of Dos Erres.
它位于丛林中，位于曾经的 Dos Erres 村。
In 1982, Dos Erres disappeared.
1982年，多斯·埃雷斯失踪了。
One day, the residents were there.
有一天，居民们来到了那里。
The next day, they were nowhere to be found.
第二天，他们却不见踪影。
When Aura heard about the bones, she put together a team of forensic anthropologists.
当奥拉听说这些骨头后，她组建了一支法医人类学家团队。
She told my producer, Brian Reed, and me they trekked 7 and 1/2 miles into the jungle.
她告诉我的制作人布莱恩·里德和我，他们长途跋涉了 7.5 英里进入丛林。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator It was desolation.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 这是荒凉。
Overgrown weeds, trees, and bushes would cover us.
杂草丛生、树木和灌木丛会覆盖我们。
We couldn't see each other.
我们看不见对方。
And because we couldn't see each other, just by whistling or yelling we would call on each other.
因为我们看不见对方，所以我们只能通过吹口哨或大喊大叫来互相呼唤。
Do you remember the moment that you saw the well?
你还记得看到井的那一刻吗？
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator I remember it.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 我记得。
It was sunk.
它沉没了。
It sank one meter, or maybe more.
它下沉了一米，甚至更多。
It was three meters below.
低于三米。
And then, this tree was growing in the well.
然后，这棵树就长在井里了。
They began digging-- one meter, two meters, three meters.
他们开始挖掘——一米、两米、三米。
Nothing.
没有什么。
Day after day, they went back to the well.
日复一日，他们又回到了井边。
They invited the local public prosecutor.
他们邀请了当地检察官。
He came by, looked into the well, told them they wouldn't find anything there but dog bones.
他走过来，朝井里看了看，告诉他们除了狗骨头之外什么也找不到。
Finally, they hit four meters.
最后，他们达到了四米。
A warning that the next minute or so gets very graphic and probably isn't suitable if you're listening with small children.
警告，接下来的一分钟左右会变得非常生动，如果你和小孩子一起听，可能不适合。
We were able to see the shirt of a small boy, the bones inside.
我们能够看到一个小男孩的衬衫，里面有骨头。
And that made us think that all the inhabitants of Dos Erres were there.
这让我们认为多斯埃雷斯的所有居民都在那里。
So they kept digging.
于是他们继续挖掘。
And they found more and more bones, more and more bodies, more and more clothing.
他们发现了越来越多的骨头、越来越多的尸体、越来越多的衣服。
They dug up shirts, shoes, hair pins, heart-shaped earrings, boots with silver spurs.
他们挖出了衬衫、鞋子、发夹、心形耳环、银马刺靴子。
In a video they shot at the time, one of the anthropologists stands at the bottom of the well.
在他们当时拍摄的一段视频中，一名人类学家站在井底。
It's about 40 feet deep.
大约有 40 英尺深。
She looks exhausted.
她看上去很疲惫。
There's a tiny skeleton at her feet.
她的脚下有一个小骷髅。
[SPEAKING SPANISH].
[说西班牙语]。
Habiba Nosheen Just to think that they were thrown from that height into the well, she says, it's hard to even imagine it.
Habiba Nosheen 她说，光是想到他们是从那么高的地方被扔进井里的，就很难想象。
It's hard to convince herself of these things.
很难让自己相信这些事情。
At the end of it all, they found at least 162 bodies plus lots of incomplete remains.
最终，他们发现了至少 162 具尸体以及许多不完整的遗骸。
67 of the bodies were victims under 12 years old.
其中67具尸体是12岁以下的受害者。
Their average age was seven.
他们的平均年龄是七岁。
Aura and her team wanted to identify these bodies.
奥拉和她的团队想要辨认这些尸体的身份。
So they took the remains to the center of the nearest town.
于是他们把遗骸带到了最近的城镇中心。
They put them together as best they could into skeletons and laid them out.
他们尽最大努力将它们组合成骨架并放置起来。
Alongside, they placed the clothing they found in the well next to the body they thought each piece belonged to.
与此同时，他们把在井里找到的衣服放在他们认为每件衣服所属的尸体旁边。
Then, they put out an invitation for the community to come and look.
然后，他们邀请社区前来参观。
There is video of this, all the bones and clothing spread out on a concrete floor.
有视频显示，所有的骨头和衣服都散落在水泥地板上。
People filed by, taking it all in.
人们鱼贯而过，将这一切尽收眼底。
Some of them recognized clothing worn by their relatives and friends from Dos Erres.
他们中的一些人认出了来自多斯埃雷斯的亲友所穿的衣服。
[SPEAKING SPANISH]: Habiba Nosheen But only 10 people came forward to specifically identify relatives.
[西班牙语]：Habiba Nosheen 但只有 10 人站出来具体指认亲属。
Most were still afraid to admit they knew anyone who had disappeared from Dos Erres.
大多数人仍然不敢承认他们认识任何从多斯埃雷斯失踪的人。
People still remembered how, in 1982 right after the village vanished, family members went to the army commander in the nearest town and asked what happened.
人们还记得，1982年，村庄消失后，家人就去找最近城镇的军队指挥官，询问发生了什么事。
This commander, Lieutenant Carlos Antonio Carias, said the guerrillas were responsible.
该指挥官卡洛斯·安东尼奥·卡里亚斯中尉表示，游击队应对此负责。
The guerrillas had killed or taken everyone.
游击队杀死或带走了所有人。
But he also told family members that if they talked about the incident, even asked about it, they would die-- which just reinforced people's suspicions that the Army was probably behind it.
但他还告诉家人，如果他们谈论这起事件，甚至询问这件事，他们就会死——这只会加剧人们对军队可能是幕后黑手的怀疑。
So Aura put herself out there even more to try to get people to talk.
因此，奥拉更加努力地试图让人们开口说话。
She appeared on local media in the province they were in, Peten.
她出现在他们所在的佩滕省的当地媒体上。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator Each time that we visited in Peten, we took advantage of that moment to speak on the radio, to speak on the TV, to ask people that whoever knew something about Dos Erres to come forward.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 每次我们访问佩滕时，我们都会利用这一时刻在广播、电视上发言，请那些了解多斯·埃雷斯的人挺身而出。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator Because sometimes I think that I was too daring.
[说西班牙语] 翻译因为有时我觉得我太大胆了。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator The life of Guatemalans doesn't cost a thing.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 危地马拉人的生命不值一文钱。
It's not worth a thing.
这不值得。
And just anything could have happened to us.
任何事情都可能发生在我们身上。
Aura was worried about how members of the military might react when they heard her announcements.
奥拉担心军方成员听到她的宣布后会有什么反应。
But she never expected the reaction she got from this guy.
但她万万没有想到，这个男人会给她带来什么样的反应。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator I heard this.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 我听到了这个。
And I looked at my little children playing.
我看着我的小孩子们玩耍。
And I decided I'd do this so the same thing would not happen to them, as happened to the children in the massacre at Dos Erres.
我决定这样做，这样同样的事情就不会发生在他们身上，就像发生在多斯埃雷斯大屠杀中的孩子们身上一样。
Favio Pinzon Jerez is a former sergeant in the military.
法维奥·平松·赫雷斯 (Favio Pinzon Jerez) 是一名前陆军中士。
And after hearing Aura on the radio, he got on a bus and took the 12-hour ride to Guatemala City.
在收音机里听到 Aura 的声音后，他坐上了一辆公共汽车，乘坐 12 个小时的车程来到了危地马拉城。
He walked into the UN office and told them he knew what had happened at Dos Erres, because he had taken part in it.
他走进联合国办公室，告诉他们他知道多斯埃雷斯发生的事情，因为他参与了其中。
He did something no one soldier had ever done in Guatemala-- he confessed.
他承认，他做了危地马拉士兵从未做过的事情。
Aura went to see Favio in Peten.
奥拉去佩滕看望法维奥。
A UN official trailed her to make sure she was safe.
一名联合国官员跟踪她以确保她的安全。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator We went to his house.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 我们去了他家。
We knocked on the door.
我们敲了敲门。
His children were playing nearby around a table.
他的孩子们正在附近的一张桌子周围玩耍。
He says, "Come in, sit down." And so I told him, "I just come from the UN office.
他说：“请进，坐下。”所以我告诉他，“我刚从联合国办公室来。
And they told me that you wanted to speak to me." He told me, "That's right.
他们告诉我你想和我说话。”他告诉我：“没错。
I wanted to talk to you because what I have right here, in my heart, I cannot stand it anymore.
我想和你谈谈，因为我已经无法忍受这里、我心里的一切了。
It's hurting me so much." That's how we talked for four hours.
这让我很受伤。”就这样我们聊了四个小时。
He told me everything that had happened.
他告诉了我发生的一切。
The story Favio told Aura was deeply upsetting.
法维奥告诉奥拉的故事令人深感不安。
For nearly 15 years, he'd kept it a secret even from his wife.
近 15 年来，他甚至对妻子也保守着这个秘密。
He told Aura what he and other soldiers had done at Dos Erres.
他告诉奥拉他和其他士兵在多斯埃雷斯所做的事情。
Were you mad at him?
你生他的气了吗？
Aura Farfan [SPEAKING SPANISH]
奥拉·法尔凡 [西班牙语]
Of course I was.
我当然是。
I didn't want to shake his hand.
我不想握他的手。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator Because I didn't.
[说西班牙语] 翻译因为我没有。
It wasn't in me to shake his hand.
我没有资格和他握手。
After Favio confessed, he convinced another soldier to do the same-- to confess in exchange for immunity.
法维奥认罪后，他说服另一名士兵也这样做——认罪以换取豁免权。
This soldier's name is Cesar Franco Ibanez.
这位士兵的名字叫塞萨尔·弗朗哥·伊巴内斯。
They're both in hiding now.
他们现在都躲起来了。
We met them secretly at a hotel.
我们在一家旅馆秘密会见了他们。
The story they told us is disturbing.
他们告诉我们的故事令人不安。
So again, if you have children with you, it's probably not appropriate for them.
再说一遍，如果您带着孩子，这可能不适合他们。
Also, if you're sensitive to violence, you may want to tune back in in about 15 minutes.
另外，如果您对暴力很敏感，您可能需要在大约 15 分钟后重新收听。
Favio joined the military when he was 18.
法维奥 18 岁时参军。
His dad worked for the Air Force and got him a job, he says, because he had nothing else to do.
他说，他的父亲在空军工作，并为他找到了一份工作，因为他没有其他事情可做。
He eventually became an Army cook.
他最终成为一名陆军厨师。
And in 1979, the Army assigned him to a place called The Schools of the Kaibiles.
1979 年，陆军将他分配到一个名为“凯比勒人学校”的地方。
The Kaibiles are an elite special forces unit.
凯比勒人是一支精英特种部队。
They refer to themselves as killing machines.
他们称自己为杀人机器。
The school is where they trained in jungle warfare, like how to jump out of planes and moving vehicles.
学校是他们训练丛林战的地方，比如如何从飞机和移动的车辆上跳下来。
As part of survival training, Favio says, they ate raw snake and dog.
法维奥说，作为生存训练的一部分，他们吃了生蛇和狗。
He saw people being tortured.
他看到人们受到酷刑。
Favio says he tried to make it as a full-fledged Kaibil.
法维奥说，他试图将其打造成成熟的 Kaibil。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator I just really only lasted about two weeks.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 我真的只持续了大约两周。
My knees just couldn't take it.
我的膝盖实在受不了。
So that's when you went back to cooking?
那你就回去做饭了？
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator Well actually, I spent a week sleeping.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 嗯，实际上，我花了一个星期的时间睡觉。
And then, I went back to cooking.
然后，我又回去做饭了。
In 1982, the president of Guatemala, Efrain Rios Montt, formed a secret ops unit of all the instructors at the school.
1982年，危地马拉总统埃夫拉因·里奥斯·蒙特组建了一个由学校所有教官组成的秘密行动小组。
These soldiers were the elite of the elite.
这些士兵都是精英中的精英。
Favio was their cook.
法维奥是他们的厨师。
And their job was to deploy on urgent missions all over the country.
他们的工作是部署到全国各地执行紧急任务。
One of those was to Dos Erres.
其中之一是给多斯·埃雷斯 (Dos Erres) 的。
It was fall of that year, and the Army had just suffered a humiliating attack from the rebels.
那年秋天，陆军刚刚遭受了叛军的羞辱性攻击。
Several soldiers had been killed.
数名士兵被杀。
So commanders called up the special unit.
于是指挥官们召集了特种部队。
Cesar, the other solder we talked to, told us the story.
我们采访的另一位焊锡塞萨尔向我们讲述了这个故事。
Unlike Favio, Cesar has the bearing of a soldier.
与法维奥不同的是，塞萨尔有着军人的气质。
He's serious, rarely smiles.
他很严肃，很少笑。
They have the same interpreter.
他们有同一个翻译。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator They said that a unit from our brigade had been ambushed by the guerrillas, and they had taken 21 rifles.
[说西班牙语]翻译 他们说我们旅的一个部队遭到了游击队的伏击，他们拿走了21支步枪。
At the time, the military was waging its scorched earth campaign where they destroy any village they suspected of helping guerrillas, even something as small as giving them some food.
当时，军方正在进行焦土行动，他们摧毁了任何涉嫌帮助游击队的村庄，甚至是给他们一些食物这样的小事情。
In this case, officers told the unit that guerrillas were keeping the rifles in Dos Erres.
在这种情况下，军官告诉部队，游击队将步枪存放在多斯埃雷斯。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator And they told us that our mission was to recover the 21 rifles that had been taken.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 他们告诉我们，我们的任务是找回被拿走的 21 支步枪。
And so the plan was we'd go in in the dead of night for a surprise.
所以我们的计划是在夜深人静的时候进去寻找一个惊喜。
Their strategy was to pretend that they were guerrillas.
他们的策略是假装自己是游击队员。
That would make it easier to sneak in.
这样就更容易潜入了。
It would also make it easier to later blame guerrillas for this attack.
这也使得事后更容易将这次袭击归咎于游击队。
So they disguised themselves.
所以他们伪装了自己。
They wore green t-shirts, camouflage pants, and red arm bands.
他们穿着绿色T恤、迷彩裤和红色臂章。
They rode in vegetable trucks that they car jacked off the highway.
他们乘坐从高速公路上硬塞过来的蔬菜卡车。
When they reached Dos Erres at 2:00 in the morning, they found a quiet, peaceful village.
凌晨2:00，当他们到达多斯埃雷斯时，他们发现了一个安静祥和的村庄。
Too small, in fact, to even be a full village.
事实上，太小了，甚至无法成为一个完整的村庄。
Residents were still asleep.
居民们还在睡觉。
They were mostly small time farmers who grew beans, corn, and pineapples.
他们大多是种植豆类、玉米和菠萝的小农。
Though when the Kaibiles arrived, Cesar says, they expected something different.
塞萨尔说，尽管凯比勒夫妇到来时，他们的期望有所不同。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator Well, we were expecting that they were going to shoot at us because we thought that the people in Dos Erres were all communists.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 好吧，我们预计他们会向我们开枪，因为我们认为多斯埃雷斯的人都是共产主义者。
And so were expecting them to attack us.
所以我们期待他们攻击我们。
We were waiting for them to attack us with heavy armament.
我们正在等待他们用重型武器攻击我们。
And it didn't happen.
但它并没有发生。
Nobody shot at us.
没有人向我们开枪。
They split off into smaller groups, including an assault group of the fiercest soldiers.
他们分成了较小的小组，其中包括由最凶猛的士兵组成的突击小组。
Cesar says these were the soldiers who were normally in charge of capturing prisoners, interrogating them, and killing them.
塞萨尔说，这些士兵通常负责抓捕、审讯和杀害囚犯。
Psychopaths, he called them.
他称他们为精神病患者。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator This assault group was given the task of getting everybody out of their houses.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 这个突击小组的任务是让所有人离开他们的房子。
They put the women and children in the church and the men in the school.
他们把妇女和儿童安置在教堂里，把男人安置在学校里。
And so when they had everyone together, some of the women at the church began to scream for help.
因此，当他们把所有人聚集在一起时，教堂里的一些妇女开始尖叫求救。
And they were raping them.
他们正在强奸他们。
They didn't respect anyone.
他们不尊重任何人。
Both soldiers, Cesar and Favio, say this was the moment when the mission turned from recovering rifles to something darker.
塞萨尔和法维奥这两名士兵都表示，此时任务从找回步枪转向了更黑暗的任务。
It started with a lieutenant who grabbed a girl and raped her in front of her family.
事情始于一名中尉抓住一名女孩并在她家人面前强奸了她。
And because he was one of the highest ranking officers, other soldiers started doing it, too, throughout the day.
由于他是最高级别的军官之一，其他士兵也开始全天这样做。
Here's what Favio saw.
这是法维奥所看到的。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator There was a girl about 12 years old.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 有一个大约 12 岁的女孩。
And a guy grabbed her by her hair and dragged her along.
一名男子抓住她的头发，将她拖走。
And there in the little field to the side, that's where he raped her.
就在旁边的小田野里，他强奸了她。
One group of soldiers, including Cesar, was ordered to guard the perimeter of the village.
包括塞萨尔在内的一组士兵奉命守卫村庄周边。
People could enter, but no one could go out.
人们可以进去，但没有人可以出去。
Others, including Favio, were ordered to start bringing people from the church and the school to a nearby well.
包括法维奥在内的其他人被命令开始将教堂和学校的人们带到附近的一口井。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator The first massacre was of a baby.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 第一次屠杀是针对婴儿的。
I heard crying.
我听到哭声。
And I looked.
我看了看。
And I saw Gilberto Jordan and Manuel Pop Sun carrying the baby.
我看到吉尔伯托·乔丹和曼努埃尔·波普·孙抱着孩子。
They threw the baby alive into the well.
他们把婴儿活活扔进井里。
And that's the way the massacre began.
屠杀就这样开始了。
The first were the children.
首先是孩子们。
It was like an assembly line.
这就像一条装配线。
One by one, soldiers grabbed villagers, blindfolded them, and dragged them to the edge of the well.
士兵们一一抓住村民，蒙住他们的眼睛，把他们拖到井边。
Along the way, many of the women were raped.
一路上，不少妇女被强奸。
This is Cesar.
这是塞萨尔。
He brought people to the well, too.
他也把人们带到了井边。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator And as they were brought to the well, they were asked, "Where are the rifles?" They said nothing about rifles.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 当他们被带到井边时，有人问他们：“步枪在哪里？”他们只字不提步枪的事。
And they were hit on the back of the head with a sledgehammer and thrown in the well.
他们的后脑勺被大锤击中，然后被扔进井里。
Did they ensure that they were killed before they were thrown in the well?
他们在被扔进井里之前确保他们已经被杀了吗？
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator No. People fell into the well.
[说西班牙语] 译者号。人们掉进井里了。
Then, all of a sudden, they reacted.
然后，突然，他们反应过来。
They screamed.
他们尖叫起来。
How many people did you bring to the well?
你带了多少人到井边？
Did you bring to their death?
你害死了他们吗？
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator About 15, around 15.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 大约15，大约15。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator Yes, when I took the first person to the well, Lieutenant Rivera told me to throw the person in the well.
[说西班牙语] 翻译是的，当我带第一个人到井里时，里维拉中尉告诉我把人扔进井里。
He did it so that we'd all be implicated in what happened.
他这样做是为了让我们都被卷入所发生的事情。
What would have happened if you said no?
如果你说不，会发生什么？
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator They would have killed us.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 他们会杀了我们。
Incredibly, one person managed to escape from all this.
令人难以置信的是，一个人竟然逃脱了这一切。
He was 11 years old.
那年他11岁。
His name is Salome Armando Hernandez.
他的名字叫莎乐美·阿曼多·埃尔南德斯。
And he didn't live in Dos Erres.
而且他并不住在多斯埃雷斯。
He and his brother showed up later in the morning to visit their uncle.
早上晚些时候，他和他的兄弟来拜访他们的叔叔。
By sundown, the well was filled with bodies.
日落时分，井里已经堆满了尸体。
And soldiers forced a group of women and children, including Salome, out of the church where they had been held, put them in a line, and led them to the forest.
士兵们将包括莎乐美在内的一群妇女和儿童强行赶出关押她们的教堂，将她们排成一排，带她们到森林里。
Some women carried their children.
一些妇女带着孩子。
Some were pregnant.
有些人怀孕了。
We talked to Salome in Guatemala City.
我们与危地马拉城的莎乐美进行了交谈。
He's 42 now.
他现在42岁了。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator All the women were resisting.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 所有的女人都在反抗。
They didn't want to go.
他们不想去。
So the soldiers started pushing and beating them.
于是，士兵们开始推搡、殴打他们。
I remember one of the women saying, "We're not dogs for you to kill us in the field.
我记得其中一位妇女说：“我们不是狗，你不能在田野里杀死我们。
We know that you're going to kill us.
我们知道你会杀了我们。
Why don't you kill us right here?" That's when I decided to run.
你为什么不在这里杀了我们？”就在那时我决定跑步。
Salome waited for a soldier to turn away.
莎乐美等待一名士兵转身离开。
And then, he sprinted into the woods.
然后，他就一头扎进了树林里。
He ducked behind a tree trunk and hid.
他躲在树干后面。
The soldier fired a shot in his direction.
士兵朝他的方向开了一枪。
He fired again.
他再次开枪。
Salome didn't move.
莎乐美没有动。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator I was very scared.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 我非常害怕。
I was trembling.
我浑身发抖。
And then I saw them gathering the women.
然后我看到他们聚集了妇女。
And they took several steps back.
而他们也后退了几步。
And they started firing, shooting the women.
他们开始开枪，射杀妇女。
And you could hear all the women in mourning.
你可以听到所有妇女都在哀悼。
They were screaming.
他们在尖叫。
And then you could still hear some of them wounded.
然后你仍然可以听到其中一些人受伤的声音。
But they were still alive.
但他们还活着。
And after that, you could hear some solid shots like they were killing them one by one, the ones that were still alive.
在那之后，你可以听到一些坚实的枪声，就像他们正在将那些还活着的人一一杀死。
At the end of it all, the entire village was wiped out.
最终，整个村庄被消灭了。
No rifles were ever found.
没有发现步枪。
Salome escaped.
莎乐美逃脱了。
And according to Favio and Cesar, this patrol of killers spared just two other people, both young boys with light skin and green eyes.
根据法维奥和塞萨尔的说法，这支杀手巡逻队只放过了另外两个人，他们都是浅色皮肤和绿色眼睛的小男孩。
Three months later, the second in command of the squad that wiped out Dos Erres, Lieutenant Oscar Ramirez Ramos, showed up at his mother's house with a three-year-old boy and a fake birth certificate.
三个月后，消灭多斯·埃雷斯小队的二把手奥斯卡·拉米雷斯·拉莫斯中尉带着一个三岁的男孩和一张假出生证明出现在他母亲家。
He introduced him to his family as his son.
他把他介绍给家人，把他当作自己的儿子。
In 1996, the Dos Erres case landed on the desk of Sara Romero, the assistant prosecutor who contacted Oscar.
1996年，多斯·埃雷斯案落到了联系奥斯卡的助理检察官萨拉·罗梅罗的案头。
She was a rookie, just a year out of law school.
她是一名新人，刚从法学院毕业一年。
And she had almost no support from her own ministry.
她几乎没有得到自己部门的支持。
This is the same ministry that, at one point, had dismissed the remains at Dos Erres as dog bones.
该部门曾一度将多斯埃雷斯的遗骸视为狗骨头。
So the case wasn't exactly a priority for them.
所以这个案子对他们来说并不是一个优先考虑的事情。
It was just Sara and one other colleague working it on their own.
只有萨拉和另一位同事独自工作。
They had almost nothing to go on.
他们几乎没有什么可继续的。
They couldn't even prove the military was behind the massacre, never mind which unit of the military or which members in the unit.
他们甚至无法证明军方是屠杀的幕后黑手，更不用说是哪个部队或部队中的哪些成员了。
So when Favio and Cesar came forward, it was an unprecedented break.
所以当法维奥和塞萨尔站出来时，这是前所未有的突破。
Sara's office had to create a witness protection program specifically for the two of them, because before that they hadn't had any witnesses to protect.
萨拉的办公室必须专门为他们两个制定一个证人保护计划，因为在此之前他们没有任何证人需要保护。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator The next step was to confirm all the pieces of information that the Kaibil witnesses had given.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 下一步是确认 Kaibil 目击者提供的所有信息。
Remember, Sara was trying to do something that had never been done before in Guatemala.
请记住，萨拉正在尝试做一些危地马拉以前从未做过的事情。
There hadn't been a single trial against members of the military for crimes they had committed during the war.
没有对军人在战争期间犯下的罪行进行过任何审判。
So she knew if she was going to build a case that would win, she needed more evidence.
所以她知道如果她要立案获胜，她需要更多证据。
She didn't have names for most of the victims.
她不知道大多数受害者的名字。
So she poked around until she found a teacher who lived near Dos Erres who had taught some of the children from the village back in the '80s.
于是她四处寻找，直到找到一位住在多斯埃雷斯附近的老师，他曾在 80 年代教过村里的一些孩子。
Sara asked her to remember, as best she could, the names of her former students.
萨拉要求她尽可能记住以前学生的名字。
Sara used those names to track down relatives.
萨拉用这些名字来寻找亲戚。
Because of Favio and Cesar, Sara did have the names of the other Kaibiles who had been at the massacre.
由于法维奥和塞萨尔，萨拉确实知道了参与大屠杀的其他凯比勒人的名字。
So she started tracking them down, too, which meant walking up to their doorsteps and confronting them face to face, including a Kaibil who took one of the green-eyed boys who was spared that day.
所以她也开始追踪他们，这意味着走到他们家门口，面对面与他们对峙，其中包括一个凯比尔，他带走了那天幸免于难的一个绿眼睛男孩。
The Kaibil's name was Santos Lopez Alonzo.
凯比尔的名字叫桑托斯·洛佩斯·阿隆佐。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator I had never faced a Kaibil before.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 我以前从未遇到过 Kaibil。
And because of the description that I had of the Kaibiles, I thought that he was going to be armed, and that if he knew that I knew something about Dos Erres he was going to shoot at me.
由于我对凯比勒人的描述，我认为他会携带武器，如果他知道我了解多斯·埃雷斯，他就会向我开枪。
Or perhaps he was going to capture us and torture us.
或者他可能会抓住我们并折磨我们。
Your colleague?
你的同事？
Sara Romero [SPEAKING SPANISH]
萨拉·罗梅罗 [西班牙语]
No, he wasn't either.
不，他也不是。
None of us was armed.
我们没有人携带武器。
Sara and her partner had to leave their car on the road and walk through the woods to Lopez Alonzo's house.
萨拉和她的伴侣不得不把车停在路上，步行穿过树林来到洛佩兹·阿隆佐的家。
They told their driver to call the police if they didn't come back.
他们告诉司机，如果他们不回来就报警。
They approached the house.
他们走近房子。
And there was Lopez Alonzo, lying in a hammock.
洛佩兹·阿朗佐躺在吊床上。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator When I saw him, I wasn't fearful at all.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 当我看到他时，我一点也不害怕。
Because he looked like a campesino, like a peasant.
因为他看起来像个农民，像个农民。
He was just a simple person, a person without education and not as ferocious as I imagined him to be.
他只是一个简单的人，一个没有受过教育的人，并不像我想象的那么凶猛。
Lopez Alonzo was polite and invited them in.
洛佩兹·阿隆索很有礼貌地邀请他们进来。
At first, he wouldn't talk about Dos Erres.
起初，他不愿谈论多斯·埃雷斯。
Then, Sara told him that two soldiers from his squad had already come forward.
然后，萨拉告诉他，他的小队的两名士兵已经走上前来。
And he started telling the truth.
他开始说实话。
"My oldest son, Ramiro, has a sad story," he told them.
“我的大儿子拉米罗有一个悲伤的故事，”他告诉他们。
And he confessed to taking him from Dos Erres.
他承认将他从多斯埃雷斯手中带走。
When Sara tracked Ramiro down, he was serving in the military that had killed his family.
当萨拉找到拉米罗时，他正在军队服役，正是这支军队杀害了他的家人。
The fact that he existed and that he was saved by one of the Kaibiles, and raised by one of the Kaibiles, made it nearly impossible for the Kaibiles to deny their involvement in the massacre.
他的存在，以及他被一位凯比勒人所救，并由一位凯比勒人抚养长大的事实，使得凯比勒人几乎不可能否认他们参与了大屠杀。
At the same time, Sara started to look for the other boy who Favio and Cesar told her was spared.
与此同时，萨拉开始寻找法维奥和塞萨尔告诉她幸免于难的另一个男孩。
But it wasn't as easy.
但这并不那么容易。
The soldier who allegedly took him was dead.
据称带走他的士兵已经死亡。
That soldier's mother who supposedly raised the boy was also dead.
据说抚养这个男孩的那个士兵的母亲也死了。
The soldier's brother refused to talk.
士兵的兄弟拒绝说话。
His sister was also reluctant, but told Sara that in 1983, he did indeed come home with a three-year-old boy.
他的妹妹也很不情愿，但告诉萨拉，1983年，他确实带着一个三岁的男孩回家。
The boy was chubby with broken teeth.
这个男孩胖乎乎的，牙齿断了。
His name was Oscar.
他的名字叫奥斯卡。
After his grandma died, he'd moved to the US illegally.
他的祖母去世后，他非法移居美国。
She told Sara she had no way to reach him.
她告诉萨拉她无法联系到他。
So Sara stopped looking for 10 years.
于是莎拉就停止寻找了10年。
Coming up, and the Oscar goes to-- where did he go to?
奥斯卡奖即将到来，他去哪儿了？
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.
一分钟后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
If you're just tuning in, we're devoting our entire program today to a massacre of a village in Guatemala called Dos Erres in 1982, and the attempt to bring the killers to justice, which took years.
如果您刚刚收看，我们今天的整个节目将重点讲述 1982 年危地马拉一个名为 Dos Erres 的村庄发生的大屠杀，以及花了数年时间将凶手绳之以法的努力。
One of the ways that we know about what happened at Dos Erres is from secret cables that have been declassified that were sent back and forth between the United States embassy in Guatemala and Washington, D.C.
我们了解多斯埃雷斯事件的途径之一是来自美国驻危地马拉大使馆和华盛顿特区之间来回发送的已解密的秘密电报。
These cables show that back in 1981 and '82, embassy officials heard lots of reports about the Army massacring whole villages throughout Guatemala, which they dismissed until finally, in 1982, at the urging of the State Department back in Washington they got in a helicopter to see for themselves if the stories were true.
这些电报显示，早在 1981 年和 82 年，大使馆官员就听到了大量有关军队屠杀危地马拉各地整个村庄的报道，但他们最终驳回了这些报道，直到 1982 年，在华盛顿国务院的敦促下，他们乘坐直升机亲眼看看这些报道是否属实。
And this is just a coincidence-- the site that they happened to investigate was Dos Erres.
而这只是一个巧合——他们调查的地点恰好是Dos Erres。
They flew their helicopter low over the village.
他们的直升机低空飞过村庄上空。
They saw the burned-out houses.
他们看到了被烧毁的房屋。
They looked for but found no survivors.
他们寻找但没有发现幸存者。
They landed in a nearby town where the mayor told them that the disappearance of every man, woman, and child from Dos Erres was simply a mystery.
他们降落在附近的一个小镇，镇长告诉他们，多斯埃雷斯的每个男人、女人和孩子的失踪简直就是一个谜。
The United States concluded that the Guatemalan Army was responsible.
美国的结论是危地马拉军队应对此负责。
But they kept this a secret, didn't discuss it publicly.
但他们对此保密，没有公开讨论。
And for years afterwards, the killings continued.
此后多年，杀戮仍在继续。
And the US knew about it but stood by.
美国知道这一点，但袖手旁观。
Before the break, you heard about how Sara Romero started her investigation, how she found one of the two boys who'd been taken from the village but couldn't find Oscar.
在休息之前，您听说了萨拉·罗梅罗如何开始调查，她如何找到被从村里带走但找不到奥斯卡的两个男孩之一。
She had enough evidence to start trying the case, though, and got arrest warrants for 17 members of the Army squad that was at Dos Erres.
不过，她有足够的证据开始审理此案，并获得了对多斯埃雷斯陆军小队 17 名成员的逮捕令。
And then, nothing happened for nearly 10 years.
然后，近10年什么也没发生。
The soldiers filed motions and appeals and stalled the case before it ever got started in the Guatemalan court system.
士兵们提出了动议和上诉，并在危地马拉法院系统开始审理此案之前就搁置了此案。
Finally, the Interamerican Court of Human Rights looked at what was going on and declared that these appeals were paralyzing justice and ordered Guatemala to bring the soldiers to trial.
最后，美洲人权法院调查了到底发生了什么，并宣布这些上诉使司法瘫痪，并命令危地马拉对这些士兵进行审判。
And that is where our story picks up, with Sara Romero still working on the case 13 years after she started it.
我们的故事就是从这里开始的，萨拉·罗梅罗在立案 13 年后仍在处理此案。
Habiba Nosheen takes it from here.
哈比巴·诺辛 (Habiba Nosheen) 从这里开始。
Finally the case was moving forward, and the judge ordered the investigators to do a bunch of things including find Oscar, the green-eyed boy who had been abducted from Dos Erres who they still hadn't located.
案件终于有了进展，法官命令调查人员做一系列事情，包括找到奥斯卡，那个从多斯埃雷斯被绑架的绿眼睛男孩，但他们仍然没有找到。
So Sara got back to work.
于是萨拉又回去工作了。
She traveled back up to Oscar's hometown where she'd gone looking for him 10 years before.
她回到了奥斯卡的家乡，十年前她曾在那里寻找过他。
Back then, Oscar's uncle had stonewalled her.
那时，奥斯卡的叔叔一直阻止她。
He refused to tell her anything about his nephew.
他拒绝告诉她任何有关他侄子的事情。
This time, Sara squeezed a bit more out of him.
这一次，莎拉从他身上榨取了更多一些。
He gave her two pieces of information-- that Oscar's girlfriend was from a nearby town and that her nickname was La Flaca, the skinny one.
他给了她两条信息——奥斯卡的女朋友来自附近的一个小镇，她的昵称是拉弗拉卡，瘦的。
Sara went to the town, asked around about La Flaca, located her parents.
萨拉去了镇上，四处打听拉弗拉卡的情况，找到了她的父母。
And that's how she tracked down La Flaca and Oscar in Massachusetts and convinced Oscar to take a DNA test to see if he was actually a survivor from Dos Erres.
就这样，她在马萨诸塞州找到了拉弗拉卡和奥斯卡，并说服奥斯卡进行 DNA 测试，看看他是否真的是多斯埃雷斯的幸存者。
Fredy Peccerelli, the forensic scientist who was working the case, was excited at the prospect.
负责此案的法医科学家弗雷迪·佩切雷利 (Fredy Peccerelli) 对这一前景感到兴奋。
Usually, he's dealing with dead bodies, people who've been assassinated or massacred.
通常，他处理的是尸体，那些被暗杀或屠杀的人。
To actually be able to talk to one of the people that we're looking for is a privilege that I've never felt before.
能够真正与我们正在寻找的人交谈是一种我以前从未感受过的荣幸。
In June, 2011, Fredy took a swab of Oscar's saliva, his DNA, back to Guatemala and ran a series of tests.
2011年6月，弗雷迪采集了奥斯卡的唾液样本，即他的DNA，带回危地马拉并进行了一系列测试。
One was against Ramiro, the other green-eyed boy who was taken from the massacre to see if Ramiro was Oscar's brother.
其中一个是针对拉米罗，另一个绿眼睛的男孩，他从大屠杀中被带走，看看拉米罗是否是奥斯卡的兄弟。
They also tested Oscar's DNA against the DNA of other people who were related to the victims of Dos Erres.
他们还将奥斯卡的 DNA 与其他与多斯埃雷斯受害者有亲属关系的人的 DNA 进行了测试。
On a Sunday night in August, Fredy called Oscar with the results.
八月的一个周日晚上，弗雷迪打电话给奥斯卡告知结果。
I said, you know, remember that test we did?
我说，你知道吗，还记得我们做过的那个测试吗？
So at that point, I was a little bit nervous.
所以当时我有点紧张。
You never know.
你永远不知道。
And I told him that I had the news.
我告诉他我有这个消息。
The news is that Ramiro is not your brother.
消息是拉米罗不是你的兄弟。
He told me that we weren't brothers.
他告诉我我们不是兄弟。
I said, "I knew it!
我说：“我就知道了！
I knew that wasn't true!" He says, "Yes, but I haven't finished yet.
我就知道那不是真的！”他说：“是的，但我还没说完。
You guys are not brothers.
你们不是兄弟。
But we compared with other people's.
但我们和其他人相比。
And we found that you have a father." I said, "What are you talking about?" "It's your father.
我们发现你有一个父亲。”我说：“你在说什么？” “是你的父亲。
We found your father," he said.
我们找到了你的父亲，”他说。
"And you are one of the survivors."
“而你是幸存者之一。”
I just told him.
我刚刚告诉他。
"Your father's not who you think he is.
“你的父亲不是你想象的那样。
The guy who you think is your father is not your father.
你认为是你父亲的人并不是你的父亲。
Your father is alive.
你父亲还活着。
His name is Tranquilino.
他的名字叫特兰基利诺。
And he's old, but he's alive."
他虽然老了，但还活着。”
Yes, that's right.
是的，没错。
Fredy's team matched Oscar to his biological father.
弗雷迪的团队将奥斯卡与他的亲生父亲进行匹配。
And that biological father is alive.
而那个亲生父亲还活着。
He survived.
他活了下来。
Aura found him as part of her ongoing search for anyone related to the victims of Dos Erres.
奥拉在寻找与多斯埃雷斯受害者有关的人时发现了他。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator My name is Tranquilino Castaneda Valenzuela.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 我的名字是 Tranquilino Castaneda Valenzuela。
You hardly need a DNA test to know that Tranquilino is Oscar's dad.
你几乎不需要 DNA 测试就知道特兰基利诺是奥斯卡的父亲。
The resemblance is striking.
相似之处是惊人的。
Both have green eyes and curly hair.
两人都有绿色的眼睛和卷发。
They're both thin.
他们俩都很瘦。
Tranquilino is 70, and he limps when he walks.
特兰基利诺今年 70 岁，走路一瘸一拐。
When we met him, he wore a white cowboy hat and carried two machetes.
当我们见到他时，他戴着一顶白色牛仔帽，拿着两把砍刀。
Tranquilino's pregnant wife was killed at Dos Erres, along with all of his children-- nine of them.
特兰基利诺怀孕的妻子和他所有的孩子（其中九个）在多斯埃雷斯被杀。
Or so he thought.
或者说他是这么想的。
For 30 years, he's lived alone in the jungle.
30年来，他独自生活在丛林中。
He never remarried after the massacre, never had another child.
大屠杀后他没有再婚，也没有再生孩子。
And in the middle of our interview, Tranquilino interrupted with a request.
在我们的采访进行到一半时，特兰基利诺打断了我们的请求。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator Can I give the name of my children?
[说西班牙语] 翻译 我可以告诉我孩子的名字吗？
Of course.
当然。
Tranquilino Castaneda [SPEAKING SPANISH]
Tranquilino Castaneda [西班牙语]
My first born was Esther Castaneda.
我的长子是埃丝特·卡斯塔内达。
Second one was Etelvina.
第二个是埃特尔维娜。
Enma was the third.
阎魔是第三个。
After that was Maribel.
之后是玛丽贝尔。
She was around 13 when she died.
她去世时大约13岁。
Then, it was Luz Antonio, part of my sons.
然后是卢斯·安东尼奥，我儿子们的一部分。
Then, it was Cesar.
然后，是塞萨尔。
Cesar was seven years old.
塞萨尔七岁。
Then, two other girls, Odilia and Rosalba.
然后是另外两个女孩，奥迪莉亚和罗莎尔巴。
Anyone else?
还有其他人吗？
Tranquilino Castaneda Si, Alfredo.
特兰基利诺·卡斯塔内达·斯，阿尔弗雷多。
Tranquilino was out of town when Dos Erres happened visiting relatives.
当多斯·埃雷斯碰巧拜访亲戚时，特兰基利诺不在城里。
When he learned about the massacre, that everyone including his wife and kids had been killed--
当他得知大屠杀的消息时，包括他的妻子和孩子在内的所有人都被杀害了——
I got all crazy.
我都疯了。
I really can't put into words.
我实在无法用言语来形容。
But I felt like I was stupid, dumb.
但我感觉自己很蠢，很蠢。
I really thought I was becoming mad.
我真的以为我疯了。
Tranquilino told us that after that, he just couldn't sleep.
特兰基利诺告诉我们，在那之后他就睡不着了。
He would stay up night after night patrolling his house.
他会夜以继日地在家里巡逻。
He says he started to lose his mind.
他说他开始失去理智。
He would forget simple things, like which turn to take to get to work.
他会忘记一些简单的事情，比如该走哪条路去上班。
His head dropped constantly.
他的头不断低下。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator Listen, I started to drink.
[说西班牙语] 译者听着，我开始喝酒了。
I was really, really deep into drinking.
我真的非常非常喜欢喝酒。
It was just really, really deep, because I was sad.
它真的非常非常深，因为我很伤心。
I thought I could drown all my sorrows.
我以为我可以淹没我所有的悲伤。
But then I figure out that my sorrows could swim.
但后来我发现我的悲伤可以游泳。
When I met Tranquilino, as soon as he leaned in to say hello, I could tell he'd been drinking.
当我见到特兰基利诺时，他一倾身打招呼，我就知道他喝醉了。
He told me it's still hard for him to talk about Dos Erres without a drink.
他告诉我，如果不喝酒，他仍然很难谈论 Dos Erres。
After 20 minutes, he broke down and said he couldn't continue.
20分钟后，他崩溃了，说他无法继续。
Fredy and Aura told us what it was like when they revealed the news to him that one of his children, his son Oscar, was still alive.
弗雷迪和奥拉告诉我们，当他们向他透露他的一个孩子，他的儿子奥斯卡还活着的消息时，他的感受如何。
They asked Tranquilino to come to Guatemala City.
他们邀请特兰基利诺来危地马拉城。
They needed to see him in person.
他们需要亲自见他。
Well, he hadn't been told because he's old.
好吧，因为他老了，所以没人告诉他。
He's like 75.
他好像75岁了。
You want to be careful with how you deal with this information.
您需要谨慎处理这些信息。
So when he was told, I had a doctor standing by just in case he had a heart attack.
所以当他被告知时，我有一名医生站在旁边，以防他心脏病发作。
Really?
真的吗？
Fredy Peccerelli Oh, yeah.
弗雷迪·佩切雷利 噢，是的。
I was afraid that he might be too excited about it or something.
我担心他会不会太兴奋什么的。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator He was told that Oscar had been found, that a DNA test had been conducted, and that the results showed with 95% certainty that it was a match.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 他被告知奥斯卡已经被发现，并且已经进行了 DNA 测试，结果显示 95% 的确定性是匹配的。
And he would take his hat off, scratch his head, laugh, cry.
他会摘下帽子，抓抓头，笑，哭。
He didn't know what to do, because he wouldn't believe us.
他不知道该怎么办，因为他不相信我们。
He felt that all his children were dead.
他觉得他所有的孩子都死了。
What was he saying?
他说什么？
Aura Farfan [SPEAKING SPANISH]
奥拉·法尔凡 [西班牙语]
Here's how Tranquilino remembers it.
以下是特兰基利诺的回忆。
He has a different interpreter.
他有一个不同的翻译。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator First when they told me, I wasn't happy.
[说西班牙语] 翻译首先，当他们告诉我时，我不高兴。
I was sad somehow, and then in a bit of a shock.
我不知何故感到悲伤，然后又感到有点震惊。
And I remember that because they had to give me some hard liquor for me to come back to my senses, because I was in a bit of a shock.
我记得那是因为他们必须给我一些烈性酒才能让我清醒过来，因为我有点震惊。
If that wasn't enough to handle, there was more.
如果这还不够处理的话，还有更多。
One of the anthropologists walked in with a laptop.
一位人类学家拿着一台笔记本电脑走进来。
She turned on Skype.
她打开Skype。
And there, on the screen, sitting in Massachusetts, was Oscar.
屏幕上，坐在马萨诸塞州的奥斯卡。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator We were there talking.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 我们在那里聊天。
She pulled my chair.
她拉了我的椅子。
She put it next to her.
她把它放在她旁边。
She grabbed me hard.
她用力抓住了我。
And then, she said, "Do you know the person, the young man on the screen?" And I said, "No, I don't know who that is." And then, she said, "It's your son." I said, "Not him." And then, I couldn't speak anymore.
然后，她说：“你认识这个人，屏幕上的那个年轻人吗？”我说：“不，我不知道那人是谁。”然后，她说：“这是你的儿子。”我说：“不是他。”然后我就再也不敢说话了。
I couldn't speak anymore.
我已经说不出话来了。
When we first see each other, he couldn't talk.
当我们第一次见面时，他无法说话。
He was just crying.
他只是在哭。
And he said, "I can't talk."
他说：“我不能说话。”
Oscar just sat there looking at Tranquilino.
奥斯卡只是坐在那里看着特兰基利诺。
He didn't know what to say.
他不知道该说什么。
Oscar was just three when he was taken from Dos Erres.
奥斯卡被从多斯埃雷斯带走时只有三岁。
Seeing this man triggered nothing for him, no memories.
看到这个男人并没有唤起他的任何回忆，也没有唤起他的记忆。
The first thought that he had was that Tranquilino looked really old.
他的第一个想法是特兰基利诺看起来真的很老。
It was hard to believe that this was his father.
很难相信这是他的父亲。
Then, Tranquilino spoke.
然后，特兰基利诺开口了。
He said, "Alfredo." That was the first word that he said, "Alfredo." I said, "Yes, yes, I'm Alfredo."
他说：“阿尔弗雷多。”这是他说的第一个词：“阿尔弗雷多。”我说：“是的，是的，我是阿尔弗雷多。”
That name was familiar to Oscar because it's his middle name.
奥斯卡很熟悉这个名字，因为这是他的中间名。
The lieutenant kept it for him.
中尉替他保管着。
He also kept Oscar's original last name, which is Tranquilino's last name, Castaneda.
他还保留了奥斯卡原来的姓氏，即特兰基利诺的姓氏卡斯塔内达。
So Oscar realized that his full name, Oscar Alfredo Ramirez Castaneda, is a combination of his biological dad's name and his Kaibil dad's name.
因此奥斯卡意识到他的全名奥斯卡·阿尔弗雷多·拉米雷斯·卡斯塔内达是他亲生父亲的名字和他的凯比尔父亲的名字的组合。
Tranquilino kept talking.
特兰基利诺继续说话。
He told Oscar that he was chubby as a kid, which was true.
他告诉奥斯卡，他小时候很胖，这是真的。
Oscar was chubby as a kid.
奥斯卡小时候很胖。
Tranquilino told him he used to boss around his siblings even though they were older than him.
特兰基利诺告诉他，他曾经对他的兄弟姐妹发号施令，尽管他们比他年长。
To this day, Oscar says, that's still true.
奥斯卡说，直到今天，这仍然是事实。
He is bossy.
他很专横。
But the thing that really hit Oscar in the gut was something that was a mystery to him as a little kid.
但真正触动奥斯卡内心深处的是对他小时候来说是个谜的事情。
He told me that I didn't have my teeth.
他告诉我，我没有牙齿。
And that was true.
这确实是事实。
I didn't have my teeth for a long time.
我已经很久没有长牙了。
Until he was eight or nine, he was missing a bunch of teeth.
直到八九岁的时候，他才掉了一堆牙齿。
He says he looked like Dracula.
他说他看起来像德古拉。
Tranquilino told him his teeth had been rotten when he was young, so they had to pull them out.
特兰基利诺告诉他，他年轻时牙齿就已经烂掉了，所以他们不得不把它们拔掉。
When he said that, what went off in your head?
当他这么说的时候，你脑子里想到了什么？
Then I started to, you know-- suddenly, this is true.
然后我开始，你知道，突然间，这是真的。
This is really happening.
这确实正在发生。
I was right there.
我当时就在那里。
I was on the screen with them.
我和他们一起出现在屏幕上。
Here's Fredy.
这是弗雷迪。
Fredy Peccerelli We were all crying.
弗雷迪·佩切雷利 我们都哭了。
There wasn't a person in that room that wasn't crying.
房间里没有一个人不哭。
Everybody-- I don't know.
大家——我不知道。
It was amazing.
太棒了。
It was one of the most fulfilling things I've done in my life.
这是我一生中做过的最有成就感的事情之一。
But the happy ending for Fredy and Aura and Sara didn't feel that way for Oscar.
但弗雷迪、奥拉和莎拉的幸福结局对奥斯卡来说却并非如此。
Oscar says it's hard to describe how he felt.
奥斯卡说很难描述他的感受。
I don't even know what to tell you.
我什至不知道该告诉你什么。
I think blank.
我认为空白。
Like, what could I say?
就像，我能说什么？
I was happy.
我很高兴。
I was more happy than sad.
我感到高兴多于悲伤。
I didn't know what to think about it, you know what I mean?
我不知道该怎么想，你知道我的意思吗？
My mind was just blank.
我的脑子一片空白。
The difficult thing for Oscar is that he really loves the family that raised him.
对于奥斯卡来说，困难的是他真的很爱养育他的家庭。
He wasn't treated the way other children who were stolen from massacres were often treated.
他所受到的待遇与其他从大屠杀中被偷走的孩子所受到的待遇不同。
Ramiro, for instance, the other boy who was taken from Dos Erres, he was treated horribly growing up, beaten and used almost like a servant.
例如，拉米罗（Ramiro）是从多斯埃雷斯（Dos Erres）被带走的另一个男孩，他在成长过程中受到了可怕的对待，几乎像仆人一样被殴打和使用。
But for Oscar, there's no one to easily hate.
但对于奥斯卡来说，没有人可以轻易讨厌。
His whole life, he's looked up to Ramirez Ramos, the man he thought was his father.
他一生都尊敬拉米雷斯·拉莫斯，他认为这个人就是他的父亲。
I said it was very, very, very tough because he's still a hero for me.
我说这非常、非常、非常艰难，因为他对我来说仍然是英雄。
Oscar never really knew Ramirez Ramos since he died when Oscar was so young.
自从拉米雷斯·拉莫斯在奥斯卡很小的时候去世后，奥斯卡就从未真正了解过他。
But growing up, he heard amazing things about him.
但在成长过程中，他听到了有关他的奇妙事情。
His family praised the guy all the time, how he was the first in his class at military school, how he rose through the ranks and was able to pay for his siblings' education.
他的家人一直称赞这个家伙，说他在军校是班里的第一名，他如何晋升并能够支付他兄弟姐妹的学费。
In the end, Oscar's actually grateful to the lieutenant.
说到底，奥斯卡其实还是很感谢中尉的。
He may have stolen Oscar, but he also saved him.
他可能偷走了奥斯卡，但他也救了他。
Some 200 people were killed at Dos Erres-- infants, the elderly, all of Oscar's siblings, his pregnant mother.
大约 200 人在多斯埃雷斯被杀，其中包括婴儿、老人、奥斯卡的所有兄弟姐妹以及他怀孕的母亲。
"Imagine being taken out of that pile," Oscar says.
“想象一下被从那堆东西中取出来，”奥斯卡说。
"Why me?"
“为什么是我？”
We've tried to figure out why Oscar was taken.
我们试图找出奥斯卡被夺走的原因。
And the most plausible theory we've heard comes from Oscar's aunt.
我们听到的最可信的理论来自奥斯卡的阿姨。
She told Sara that Ramirez Ramos wasn't married and he didn't have any children, and that his mother wanted a grand-kid.
她告诉萨拉，拉米雷斯·拉莫斯没有结婚，也没有孩子，他的母亲想要一个孙子。
She kept asking him to give her one.
她一直要求他给她一张。
So one day, he showed up saying, "This is my son.
有一天，他出现并说道：“这是我的儿子。
I had him with a woman I'm no longer with."
我让他和一个我不再在一起的女人在一起了。”
You had said to me last time we met that you wanted to know more about your dad.
上次我们见面时你曾对我说过你想更多地了解你的父亲。
Yes.
是的。
Habiba Nosheen While my producer, Brian Reed, and I were reporting this story, Oscar asked us if we could find out more about Ramirez Ramos, this man who chose him.
Habiba Nosheen 当我的制片人布莱恩·里德和我正在报道这个故事时，奥斯卡问我们是否可以了解更多关于拉米雷斯·拉莫斯的信息，这个选择了他的人。
So we did.
所以我们做到了。
We've talked to a lot of people.
我们和很多人谈过。
And different people have said different things.
而且不同的人有不同的说法。
There's some good stuff.
有一些好东西。
There's some descriptions.
有一些描述。
And there's some bad stuff.
还有一些不好的东西。
What do you want to know from what we've learned?
从我们所了解到的内容中，你想知道什么？
All of it.
所有这一切。
Habiba Nosheen You want to know everything?
Habiba Nosheen 你想知道一切吗？
I want to know it all, oh yeah.
我想知道这一切，哦，是的。
I want to know everything.
我想知道一切。
The bad stuff, some of it is going to be upsetting.
坏事，其中一些会令人心烦意乱。
That's OK.
没关系。
I want to know everything.
我想知道一切。
It probably is not going to change the way that I think about him.
这可能不会改变我对他的看法。
But I want to know.
但我想知道。
We told Oscar, sitting at his kitchen table.
我们坐在奥斯卡的餐桌旁告诉他。
It was very difficult.
这是非常困难的。
Some of what Cesar and Favio said about Ramirez Ramos was positive.
塞萨尔和法维奥对拉米雷斯·拉莫斯的一些评价是积极的。
Soldiers looked up to him.
士兵们都尊敬他。
They say they never saw him rape anyone.
他们说他们从未见过他强奸任何人。
In fact, Cesar said Ramirez Ramos was angry about the rapes at Dos Erres.
事实上，塞萨尔说拉米雷斯·拉莫斯对多斯埃雷斯发生的强奸事件感到愤怒。
He heard him tell another lieutenant, "This is an attack unit, not a rape unit." We asked them if they ever saw Ramirez Ramos kill anyone.
他听到他告诉另一名中尉：“这是一支攻击部队，而不是一支强奸部队。”我们问他们是否见过拉米雷斯·拉莫斯杀人。
Cesar said, "No, the lieutenant spent much of the massacre overseeing the operation from a tree trunk with the other commanders." But Favio said yes, he definitely saw Ramirez Ramos kill people at the well.
塞萨尔说：“不，大屠杀的大部分时间里，中尉都在树干上与其他指挥官一起监督行动。”但法维奥说是的，他确实看到拉米雷斯·拉莫斯在井边杀人。
He said the lieutenant was actually showing soldiers how to use the sledgehammer to murder people.
他说，中尉实际上是在向士兵展示如何使用大锤杀人。
"It's easy to give a blow to the head," Favio heard Ramirez Ramos say as he was demonstrating.
“头部受到打击很容易，”法维奥在示威时听到拉米雷斯·拉莫斯说道。
Favio says this happened while Cesar was away guarding the perimeter, so Cesar didn't see it.
法维奥说，这件事发生时塞萨尔不在守卫外围，所以塞萨尔没有看到。
We talked to a third person who knew Ramirez Ramos, a soldier who went to school with him and was stationed at a base with him before he became a Kaibil.
我们采访了第三位认识拉米雷斯·拉莫斯的人，拉米雷斯·拉莫斯是一名士兵，曾与他一起上学，并在他成为凯比尔人之前与他一起驻扎在一个基地。
The soldier said Ramirez Ramos had a reputation for being bloodthirsty, that he would dress as a civilian and go out in covert operations to capture people and torture them for intelligence.
这名士兵说，拉米雷斯·拉莫斯以嗜血闻名，他会打扮成平民，出去进行秘密行动，抓捕人员并拷打他们以获取情报。
He called him "a crazy sadist," someone who took pleasure in hurting people.
他称他为“疯狂的虐待狂”，以伤害他人为乐的人。
And that's basically what we've learned from the three people we talked to.
这基本上就是我们从我们采访的三个人那里了解到的。
Obviously if you're in the army, at some point you ended up doing bad things, even if you don't want to.
显然，如果你在军队，在某些时候你最终会做坏事，即使你不想这样做。
But killing, the killing, that's bad.
但杀戮，杀戮，那是不好的。
But he wasn't bad with his family.
但他对家人的态度并不坏。
He wasn't bad to me.
他对我并不坏。
He was my father for me.
他是我的父亲。
He was my father, you know?
他是我的父亲，你知道吗？
In the summer of 2011, 16 years after Aura first found the bones in the well, a judge finally handed down a verdict in the case.
2011年夏天，距离奥拉首次在井中发现骨头16年后，法官终于对此案做出了判决。
Three Kaibiles and Lieutenant Carias, the local military commander who had threatened victims' families, were found guilty of murder during the Dos Erres massacre.
三名凯比莱斯和威胁受害者家属的当地军事指挥官卡里亚斯中尉在多斯埃雷斯大屠杀期间被判犯有谋杀罪。
The judge sentenced them to 6,060 years in prison-- 30 years for each confirmed victim, plus another 30 for crimes against humanity.
法官判处他们 6,060 年监禁，其中每名已确认的受害者 30 年监禁，另加反人类罪 30 年监禁。
This was unprecedented.
这是前所未有的。
It was the first time any member of the military was put away for a massacre they had committed during the war.
这是第一次有军人因战争期间犯下的屠杀罪而被关押。
Two months ago, Sara Romero's prosecution team did it again.
两个月前，萨拉·罗梅罗的检方团队再次这么做。
One of the soldiers who was at Dos Erres was found living in California.
多斯埃雷斯的一名士兵被发现居住在加利福尼亚州。
He was sent back to Guatemala and also sentenced to 6,060 years.
他被送回危地马拉并被判处 6,060 年徒刑。
And even more incredible, just this week, the man who was the president of Guatemala during the massacre, Efrain Rios Montt, was indicted for genocide at Dos Erres.
更令人难以置信的是，就在本周，大屠杀期间担任危地马拉总统的埃夫拉因·里奥斯·蒙特（Efrain Rios Montt）被指控犯有多斯埃雷斯种族灭绝罪。
Now, there are half a dozen cases like Dos Erres moving forward in Guatemala.
现在，危地马拉还有六起像多斯·埃雷斯这样的案件正在进展中。
The climate in the country is changing.
该国的气候正在发生变化。
And some people worry about this new direction.
有些人对这个新方向感到担忧。
First among them, this man.
其中第一个，就是这个男人。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Habiba Nosheen The president of Guatemala, Otto Perez Molina.
[西班牙语] Habiba Nosheen 危地马拉总统奥托·佩雷斯·莫利纳。
He took office five months ago.
他五个月前上任。
During the war, he did counter-insurgency.
战争期间，他从事平叛活动。
At one point, he was director of military intelligence.
他曾一度担任军事情报总监。
He also headed the School of the Kaibiles for a while.
他还曾领导过凯比勒学校一段时间。
When Perez Molina was elected, there was concern that he might put an end to the Dos Erres case and investigations like it.
当佩雷斯·莫利纳当选时，有人担心他可能会结束多斯·埃雷斯案和类似的调查。
He hasn't.
他没有。
He's letting them move forward.
他让他们继续前进。
There's a lot of international pressure for him to do that.
他面临着很大的国际压力，要求他这样做。
It's a precondition for the US to resume military aid.
这是美国恢复军事援助的先决条件。
But at the same time, he says publicly that seeking justice for crimes of the past is not the best way for Guatemala to move on.
但与此同时，他公开表示，为过去的罪行寻求正义并不是危地马拉继续前进的最佳方式。
He told us that 16 years ago the Guatemalan Congress granted amnesty to most people who committed crimes during the war, so the war wouldn't continue in courts.
他告诉我们，16年前，危地马拉国会赦免了大多数在战争中犯罪的人，这样战争就不会在法庭上继续下去。
He says trying these cases is counterproductive to reconciliation.
他说，审理这些案件对于和解会适得其反。
It just stirs bad blood.
它只会激起仇恨。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator Emblematic cases like Dos Erres should be known.
[说西班牙语] 译者 像 Dos Erres 这样的标志性案例应该是众所周知的。
But it's not the path or the route that Guatemala should follow.
但这不是危地马拉应该走的道路。
We Guatemalans should be able, on both sides, for the benefit, for the sake of the future generations, to find forgiveness and to look forward without stumbling upon the past at every moment.
我们危地马拉人应该能够，为了双方的利益，为了子孙后代，寻求宽恕并展望未来，而不是每时每刻都绊倒过去。
People involved in these cases are amazed at the changes now happening in Guatemala.
参与这些案件的人们对危地马拉现在发生的变化感到惊讶。
And if you look back at Dos Erres, the Kaibiles made a few mistakes that allowed that case to be the first one of its kind-- mistakes that came back to haunt them 30 years later.
如果你回顾 Dos Erres，就会发现 Kaibiles 犯了一些错误，使得该案成为同类案件中的第一起，而这些错误在 30 年后又再次困扰着他们。
They let an 11-year-old escape, Salome, who testified against them.
他们让一名 11 岁的莎乐美逃脱，她出庭作证指控他们。
They abducted two boys, who later became living evidence linking specific soldiers in that unit back to Dos Erres.
他们绑架了两名男孩，这两名男孩后来成为将该部队中的特定士兵与多斯·埃雷斯联系起来的活生生的证据。
And probably the biggest mistake, they brought along a weak link, a guy who hadn't gone through all the intense Kaibil training, a cook who had flunked out and who, years later, couldn't stand the guilt and cracked.
也许最大的错误是，他们带来了一个薄弱环节，一个没有接受过所有严格的 Kaibil 培训的人，一个不及格的厨师，多年后，他无法忍受内疚并崩溃了。
Without Favio, there would be no case.
没有法维奥，就不会有这个案子。
He and Cesar are still in witness protection.
他和塞萨尔仍受到证人保护。
As for Oscar, this coming Monday, he's doing something he almost never does-- he's taking the day off from work.
至于奥斯卡，下周一，他将做一件他几乎从未做过的事情——他要请一天假。
He's got plans.
他有计划。
Next Monday, yes.
下周一，是的。
Next Monday's going to be a big day for me.
下周一对我来说将是重要的一天。
My father is coming over to the USA.
我父亲要来美国了。
Tranquilino is getting on a plane with Fredy and Aura to come see Oscar for the first time since they were separated at Dos Erres.
特兰基利诺与弗雷迪和奥拉一起登上飞机，自在多斯埃雷斯失散以来，这是他们第一次去见奥斯卡。
It's fair for Oscar to be nervous.
奥斯卡紧张是公平的。
His dad's visa allows him to stay with him for six months.
他父亲的签证允许他和他一起居住六个月。
There is a lot to talk about.
有很多话要谈。
Oscar has questions for Tranquilino.
奥斯卡向特兰基利诺提出问题。
He wants to know what his mom looked like.
他想知道他妈妈长什么样。
He wants to hear about all his eight brothers and sisters.
他想听听他所有八个兄弟姐妹的故事。
He talks to Tranquilino almost every day on the phone.
他几乎每天都和特兰基利诺通电话。
But he still hasn't asked him any of that stuff.
但他仍然没有问过他任何事情。
He doesn't even know basic things about his old life, like if he was the youngest of all the kids.
他甚至不知道自己过去生活的基本事情，比如他是否是所有孩子中最小的一个。
And there will probably be challenges.
并且可能会遇到挑战。
Tranquilino is old.
特兰基利诺很老了。
He's never left Guatemala.
他从未离开过危地马拉。
He still drinks.
他还是喝酒。
Oscar works 80 hours a week, and his wife has four kids to take care of.
奥斯卡每周工作 80 小时，他的妻子有四个孩子需要照顾。
They live in a two-bedroom house.
他们住在一栋两居室的房子里。
But amazingly, Oscar's not focusing on that.
但令人惊讶的是，奥斯卡并没有关注这一点。
I'm so happy to have him over.
我很高兴他能过来。
Everybody's so happy.
大家都很高兴。
So all that we need is a little bit more space.
所以我们需要的只是多一点空间。
Where's he going to sleep?
他要睡哪儿？
Oscar Ramirez In my bed, I guess.
奥斯卡·拉米雷斯 我猜在我的床上。
Maybe the couch.
也许是沙发。
Of course, yes.
当然，是的。
Habiba Nosheen Where are you going to sleep?
哈比巴·诺辛 你要睡哪儿？
The couch, maybe, or on the carpet.
也许是沙发上，或者是地毯上。
We have missed so much time.
我们已经错过了太多的时光。
So we have a lot of time to spend together.
所以我们有很多时间可以一起度过。
We have to spend together a lot of time.
我们必须花很多时间在一起。
Habiba Nosheen, and Brian Reed, and their co-reporters for this story, Ana Arana and Sebastian Rotella, have a slide show and an even more detailed ebook version of this story at propublica.org.
Habiba Nosheen 和 Brian Reed 以及本篇报道的联合记者 Ana Arana 和 Sebastian Rotella 在 propublica.org 上播放了本篇报道的幻灯片和更详细的电子书版本。
The ebook's also available at Amazon and at iBooks.
该电子书还可在 Amazon 和 iBooks 上购买。
It's called Finding Oscar .
这就是所谓的“寻找奥斯卡”。
The story is also running in Spanish in a bunch of publications in Guatemala and throughout Latin America.
这个故事还在危地马拉和整个拉丁美洲的许多出版物上以西班牙语刊登。
There are links to all that stuff at our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org 上有所有这些内容的链接。
Our program and our story about Guatemala were produced today by Brian Reed with Alex Blumberg, Ben Calhoun, Sarah Koenig, Jonathan Menjivar, Lisa Pollock, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
今天，我们的节目和有关危地马拉的故事由布莱恩·里德 (Brian Reed) 与亚历克斯·布隆伯格 (Alex Blumberg)、本·卡尔霍恩 (Ben Calhoun)、莎拉·科尼格 (Sarah Koenig)、乔纳森·门吉瓦 (Jonathan Menjivar)、丽莎·波洛克 (Lisa Pollock)、罗宾·塞米恩 (Robyn Semien)、艾丽莎·希普 (Alissa Shipp) 和南希·厄普代克 (Nancy Updike) 共同制作。
Our senior producer's Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人朱莉·斯奈德。
Annie Correal helped with research and translations.
安妮·科雷尔 (Annie Correal) 帮助进行研究和翻译。
Seth Lind is our production manager.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的生产经理。
Emily Condon's our office manager.
艾米丽·康登是我们的办公室经理。
Production help from Matt Kilty.
马特·基尔蒂 (Matt Kilty) 提供制作帮助。
Music help from Damien Gray and Rob Geddis.
达米安·格雷 (Damien Gray) 和罗布·格迪斯 (Rob Geddis) 提供音乐帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
[致谢]《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
WBEZ management oversight for our program by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia, who stopped begging during the pledge drive so soon after he started.
我们的老板托里·马拉蒂亚 (Torey Malatia) 先生对我们的项目进行了 WBEZ 管理监督，他在启动后不久就停止了在承诺活动中乞讨。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator I just really only lasted about two weeks.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 我真的只持续了大约两周。
My knees just couldn't take it.
我的膝盖实在受不了。
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life .
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。