462: Own Worst Enemy - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #462 | April 13, 2012 462: Own Worst Enemy Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 462 集 | 2012 年 4 月 13 日 462：自己最坏的敌人 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass I didn't see this one happen.
序言 Ira Glass 我没有看到这件事发生。
But Ben, one of the producer here at This American Life , he saw it.
但本，《This American Life》的制片人之一，他看到了这一点。
He was in the news room here at our home station, WBEZ Chicago, one day, when Dan Blumberg arrived for work.
有一天，丹·布隆伯格 (Dan Blumberg) 来上班时，他正在我们家乡 WBEZ 芝加哥的新闻编辑室里。
And Dan walks in.
丹走进来。
And he's just swollen, like everywhere.
他只是肿了，就像其他地方一样。
Like, his eyes-- here, I'll do the face.
比如他的眼睛——在这里，我要做脸。
It was like--
就像——
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
You're puffing out your cheeks and squinting your eyes.
你鼓起脸颊，眯起眼睛。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
I mean, his ears were like cauliflower.
我是说，他的耳朵就像菜花一样。
I was like, Dan, are you OK?
我当时想，丹，你还好吗？
And he says, "It's OK.
他说：“没关系。
Last night, I ate some crab." And everybody's reaction is, of course, oh, you're allergic!
昨晚我吃了一些螃蟹。”当然，每个人的反应都是，哦，你过敏了！
You need to go to the hospital!
你需要去医院！
And he's like, no, no, no. This happens pretty regularly because I love crab.
他说，不，不，不。这种情况经常发生，因为我喜欢螃蟹。
And I'm allergic, but it only happens one out of every three times.
而且我过敏，但这种情况只有三分之一的情况发生。
What?
什么？
Ben Yeah.
本 是的。
It was a calculated risk.
这是经过计算的风险。
One out of every three times, he would turn into, like, the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man.
每三次，他就会变成“呆呆的棉花糖人”。
Yeah, so, I mean I suppose this is the part where you'd bring Dan in.
是的，所以，我的意思是，我想这就是你要让丹进来的部分。
This, of course, is Dan.
这当然是丹。
Dan I think that morning it was mostly the eyes that would have been kind of freaking people out, very heavy eyelids, kind of probably a sunken look to them.
丹，我想那天早上，让人害怕的主要是眼睛，眼睑很重，看起来可能有点凹陷。
Dan did confirm everything that Ben said and more.
丹确实证实了本所说的一切以及更多。
He's been allergic to crab and lobster since he was a kid.
他从小就对螃蟹和龙虾过敏。
The night before this incident, he had eaten crab.
事发前一天晚上，他吃了螃蟹。
And he got the worst reaction he'd had in years.
他得到了多年来最糟糕的反应。
It was a wake up call.
这是一个警钟。
Not that he going to stop eating crab and lobster-- no, no. He was going to keep doing that.
并不是说他会停止吃螃蟹和龙虾——不，不。他打算继续这样做。
But now, he'd do it--
但现在，他会这样做——
Only if I have Benadryl as a sort of aperitif.
除非我有苯那君作为开胃酒。
And only if I have an inhaler just in case it were to spread to my lungs.
而且只有我有吸入器，以防它扩散到我的肺部。
And I have an EpiPen.
我有一支 EpiPen。
An EpiPen, if you've never heard of it, is the injection that you stab yourself with in an emergency if you get a life threatening allergic reaction.
EpiPen（如果您从未听说过的话）是一种在出现危及生命的过敏反应时在紧急情况下刺伤自己的注射剂。
And this is his system.
这就是他的系统。
And he says it's working for him.
他说这对他有用。
And no, his doctor does not know.
不，他的医生不知道。
He risks this twice a year or so.
他每年都会冒两次这样的风险。
He says his wife's not so crazy about it, partly because the Benadryl makes him really sleepy.
他说他的妻子对此并不那么着迷，部分原因是苯海拉明让他真的很困。
But the poisoning myself, it's not that bad.
但我自己中毒了，还没有那么严重。
Like I said, I get sleepy from the Benadryl.
就像我说的，服用苯海拉明后我会感到困倦。
That's the worst part, I get really tired.
这是最糟糕的部分，我真的很累。
But if you find yourself saying the sentence, the poisoning myself is not that bad--
但如果你发现自己说出了这句话，那么我自己的中毒也没有那么严重——
Yeah, I mean, I think there's something probably to that.
是的，我的意思是，我认为这可能是有原因的。
You know, I like it.
你知道，我喜欢它。
What can I say?
我能说什么？
This whole thing made me think of some book that you would read about the decline of the Roman Empire, people eating so much that they would have to throw up so they could eat some more.
这整件事让我想起一本关于罗马帝国衰落的书，人们吃得太多，以至于不得不呕吐，这样他们才能再吃一些。
This is like someday, people are going to write, what was America like back in its heyday?
就像有一天，人们会写下，美国鼎盛时期是什么样子？
Well, what it was like was people with severe allergies would eat the thing that they are allergic to but just have meds at the ready to stab themselves with and cure themselves.
嗯，就像患有严重过敏的人会吃他们过敏的东西，但只是准备好药物来刺伤自己并治愈自己。
But, you know, reaching out to friends, and family, and to strangers over the internet this past two weeks, I have learned that what Dan did is actually not that uncommon.
但是，你知道，过去两周通过互联网与朋友、家人和陌生人接触后，我了解到丹所做的事情实际上并不少见。
I do have willpower.
我确实有意志力。
But when it comes to the whole pizza thing, I don't hesitate.
但当谈到整个披萨的事情时，我毫不犹豫。
I just go ahead and eat it.
我就继续吃吧。
Ruthie Zinchuck in Charlotte, North Carolina, is lactose intolerant.
北卡罗来纳州夏洛特市的露西·辛查克 (Ruthie Zinchuck) 患有乳糖不耐症。
She can't digest milk, or cheese, or any dairy product, which is a problem because as a transplanted Jersey girl, she says, she likes her pizza.
她无法消化牛奶、奶酪或任何乳制品，这是一个问题，因为作为移植的泽西女孩，她说，她喜欢披萨。
Well, we do have Pizza Hut.
嗯，我们确实有必胜客。
Out of nowhere, I'll get severe stomach cramping.
不知怎的，我会感到严重的胃痉挛。
And I'll have to go to the bathroom like immediately.
我必须立即去洗手间。
It's no joke.
这不是玩笑。
I would say at least a couple times a week.
我想说每周至少几次。
Oh, a couple times a week?
哦，一周几次？
Ruthie Yeah.
露丝 是的。
It's always our go-to when we don't know what to eat.
当我们不知道吃什么时，它总是我们的首选。
My fiancee and I are like, well, I guess pizza will work.
我和我的未婚妻说，好吧，我想披萨会起作用。
And he'll always just look at me and say, "Really?
他总是看着我说：“真的吗？
Are you sure?"
你确定吗？”
In Cleveland, Ohio, Elise Hagisfeld, and her older sister, and her younger sister, and her mom, and her daughter are all allergic to tomatoes, citrus, pineapple, strawberries in various combinations.
在俄亥俄州克利夫兰，埃莉斯·哈吉斯菲尔德 (Elise Hagisfeld) 和她的姐姐、妹妹、妈妈和女儿都对西红柿、柑橘、菠萝、草莓的各种组合过敏。
Elise herself gets hives.
埃莉斯自己也得了荨麻疹。
It makes her face blotchy.
这让她的脸出现斑点。
She gets itchy.
她会发痒。
But they all continue to eat this stuff.
但他们都继续吃这些东西。
I don't know if I have any great stories about it because we just do it all the time.
我不知道我是否有任何关于它的精彩故事，因为我们一直在这样做。
We apparently are a family that has absolutely no self-control or good sense.
我们显然是一个完全没有自制力和理智的家庭。
I'm not sure which, but whatever.
我不确定是哪一个，但无论如何。
I like it!
我喜欢它！
Which is, of course, pretty much what Dan said, and what my senior producer's mother-in-law told me, too.
当然，这几乎是丹所说的，也是我的高级制片人的婆婆告诉我的。
Her name is Barbara Melman, and I reached her on vacation.
她的名字叫芭芭拉·梅尔曼，我在度假时联系了她。
She said that a couple years ago, after some abdominal surgery, she had a few episodes where she got incredibly sick, throwing up, rushing to the emergency room, getting an IV, an anti-nausea medication, until she realized that each time this happened, she'd eaten popcorn, or nuts, or trail mix before.
她说，几年前，在腹部手术后，她有几次病得很厉害，呕吐，冲到急诊室，接受静脉注射，服用抗恶心药物，直到她意识到每次发生这种情况时，她以前都吃过爆米花、坚果或混合干果。
And so she cut those from her diet.
所以她从饮食中减少了这些。
But over time, she has snuck that stuff back in.
但随着时间的推移，她又把那些东西偷偷带回来了。
And being on vacation now, I've got a room full of popcorn and trail mix.
现在正在度假，我的房间里装满了爆米花和什锦干果。
You do?
你做？
Right now?
现在？
Barbara I do.
芭芭拉 我愿意。
I'm staring at it as we're speaking, mm-hm.
我们说话的时候我就盯着它看，嗯嗯。
Wait, don't you think you're playing with fire?
等等，你不觉得你在玩火吗？
Well, you know, it's not going to kill me.
嗯，你知道，这不会杀了我。
And if it does, I guess I won't know.
如果确实如此，我想我不会知道。
It won't kill me.
它不会杀了我。
No, I mean, it's throwing up.
不，我是说，它在呕吐。
It's not like I have to go through surgery.
这不像我必须接受手术。
Just a quick trip to the hospital, an IV, some medication.
只需快速前往医院，静脉注射，一些药物即可。
A few hours, mm-hm.
几个小时，嗯嗯。
And meet some nice people and leave.
遇到一些好人然后离开。
The ER is a virtual laboratory of dysfunctional behaviors and bad choices.
急诊室是功能失调行为和错误选择的虚拟实验室。
Do you just feel like, as a doctor, what is wrong with people?
作为一名医生，你是否觉得人们出了什么问题？
Oh, every day, every day.
哦，每一天，每一天。
Ira Glass This is Michelle DeVito, an emergency room doctor at an urban hospital in Washington, D.C. And she says that nearly every day, she sees somebody with a food allergy who has eaten the food that they're not supposed and ended up in her ER.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 这是米歇尔·德维托（Michelle DeVito），华盛顿特区一家城市医院的急诊室医生。她说，几乎每天，她都会看到食物过敏的人吃了不该吃的食物，结果被送进了急诊室。
It's such a thing that it's not up for debate.
这是一件没有争议的事情。
Dr. DeVito told me story after story there are the people with esophageal problems who are not supposed to eat steak who come in again and again.
德维托医生告诉我一个又一个的故事，有食道问题的人不应该吃牛排，但他们一次又一次地进来。
The same people with steak caught in their throats, looking guilty, avoiding eye contact with her, requiring a gastroenterologist to be called in for an emergency endoscopy.
同样是那些牛排被卡在喉咙里的人，看上去很内疚，避免与她目光接触，要求肠胃科医生进行紧急内窥镜检查。
How much of what you see in an ER is people who are their own worst enemies?
你在急诊室看到的人中有多少是自己最大的敌人？
Oh, I think maybe half.
哦，我想也许是一半。
I think that the smokers, the out-of-control diabetics, the people who get in a car accident from text messaging on the phone-- I think so much of the pathology we see in the ER is a result of bad choices.
我认为吸烟者、失控的糖尿病患者、因手机短信而发生车祸的人——我认为我们在急诊室看到的大部分病理都是错误选择的结果。
And some of them, decades of bad choices.
其中一些是几十年来的错误选择。
I think there once we've become adults, most of us are aware of the different ways in which we can be our own worst enemies, not just with what we eat and with our health, but in how we deal with people, how we handle certain situations.
我认为，一旦我们成为成年人，我们大多数人都会意识到我们可以通过不同的方式成为自己最大的敌人，不仅仅是我们吃的东西和我们的健康，还有我们如何与人打交道，如何处理某些情况。
Well, in this hour, prepare to meet people who make my problems and yours when it comes to this seem like nothing.
好吧，在这个小时里，准备好去见那些让我和你的问题在这方面显得微不足道的人。
We have people who create problems for themselves in spectacular, life-changing ways that they do not know how to stop.
我们有些人以惊人的、改变生活的方式给自己制造问题，但他们不知道如何阻止。
We have one man who finds himself suddenly unable to do his job, others who are sabotaging relationships, and they cannot themselves when they do it.
我们有一个人突然发现自己无法胜任自己的工作，而另一些人却在破坏人际关系，而他们在工作时却无法自拔。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.
这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Aces are Wild.
第一幕，王牌是狂野。
Ken Fueson is a baseball fan and a lifelong supporter of the St. Louis Cardinals.
肯·富森 (Ken Fueson) 是一名棒球迷，也是圣路易斯红雀队的终身支持者。
And he had the same experience that a lot of Cardinal fans had back on October 3, 2000, watching his team play the Atlanta Braves.
他和很多红衣主教球迷在 2000 年 10 月 3 日观看他的球队对阵亚特兰大勇士队时所经历的经历是一样的。
It was the first game of the National League playoffs.
这是全国联赛季后赛的第一场比赛。
I remember exactly where I was.
我清楚地记得我在哪里。
I was at Johnny's Hall of Fame, which is a sports bar in Des Moines.
我当时在约翰尼名人堂，这是得梅因的一家体育酒吧。
I was sitting at a table.
我坐在一张桌子旁。
I had a big glass of iced tea and a patty melt sandwich.
我喝了一大杯冰茶和一个三明治。
The Cardinals scored six runs in the first inning.
红雀队在第一局拿下六分。
This is going to be fantastic.
这将会非常棒。
The starting pitcher for the Cardinals in this game was Rick Ankiel, a young phenom who'd had a great rookie season.
本场比赛红雀队的先发投手是里克·安基尔（Rick Ankiel），他是一位年轻的天才，新秀赛季表现出色。
He pitched two innings, no problem.
他投了两局，没问题。
But in the third, he lost control.
但到了第三局，他就失去了控制。
I don't know where the first wild pitch went, but it was like-- you thought to yourself, you know, it's slipped out of his hands.
我不知道第一个疯狂的投球去了哪里，但就像——你心里想，你知道，它从他手中溜走了。
It's like one of those scenes that they show, like the pitcher stumbling and the ball goes up in the air.
这就像他们展示的场景之一，比如投手绊倒，球升到空中。
And then it happened again.
然后又发生了。
You're still kind of thinking, OK, maybe the nervousness of the moment, or whatever.
你仍然在想，好吧，也许是此刻的紧张，或者其他什么。
But you're not thinking, this is going to be a big problem.
但你不会想，这将是一个大问题。
He's going to settle down.
他要安定下来。
And then, it keeps happening.
然后，它不断发生。
I'm thinking, there has to be some sort of physical explanation for this.
我在想，对此必须有某种物理解释。
You know, there's something wrong with his arm.
你知道，他的手臂出了问题。
This isn't even little league quality wild pitches.
这甚至不是小联盟级别的狂野球场。
It's beyond that.
还不止于此。
I mean, it's like you would have to try to throw it this badly.
我的意思是，就像你必须尝试把它扔得这么厉害。
And I'm at this bar, and people are laughing at him.
我在这个酒吧，人们都在嘲笑他。
Ankiel gets pulled from the game.
安基尔被退出游戏。
Cardinals win.
红雀队获胜。
And in the next round of playoffs, they're up against the New York Mets.
在下一轮季后赛中，他们的对手是纽约大都会队。
And so they bring Ankiel out to try again for the second game of the series.
因此他们带 Ankiel 再次尝试该系列的第二场比赛。
He lasts 2/3rds of an inning.
他持续了 2/3 局。
He doesn't even get out the first inning-- throws two wild pitches, walks three.
他甚至没有在第一局出局——投了两个野球，保送了三个。
It's literally like watching your kid in a peewee game.
这实际上就像看着你的孩子玩尿尿游戏。
Wild pitch.
狂野的球场。
He's got guys in the third row ducking.
他让第三排的人躲了起来。
Friendlies ducking back there.
友谊赛躲回那里。
Bob, you all right down there?
鲍勃，你在下面还好吗？
You ducking?
你躲闪吗？
You feel like you're safe behind that screen?
你觉得屏幕后面很安全吗？
And as a fan, you're just, this can't be happening.
作为粉丝，你只是认为，这不可能发生。
It's disbelief.
这是难以置信。
I don't believe this.
我不相信这个。
Then, you get angry at him.
然后你就对他生气。
What's he trying to do out there?
他在外面想做什么？
What's going on?
这是怎么回事？
And then, you start feeling sorry for him.
然后，你开始为他感到难过。
On a human level-- that's the other horrible part of this-- he's naked in front of the world.
在人类的层面上——这是这件事的另一个可怕的部分——他在世界面前赤身裸体。
He's out there trying to get this back.
他正在外面试图夺回这一切。
And it ain't coming back.
而且它不会再回来了。
You feel horrible for him, yeah.
你对他感觉很糟糕，是的。
Ankiel's bad streak eventually got him sent down to the minor leagues.
安基尔的糟糕表现最终让他被降级到小联盟。
He stopped pitching, came back to the major leagues as an outfielder.
他不再投球，以外野手的身份回到大联盟。
But watching Ankiel that day in the bar made Ken think of a different player from years before, Steve Blass.
但那天在酒吧里看到安基尔让肯想起了一位与几年前不同的球员，史蒂夫·布拉斯。
He played for Pittsburgh.
他曾效力于匹兹堡队。
His name has become shorthand for any pitcher who suddenly becomes his own worst enemy and loses the ability to throw the ball.
他的名字已经成为任何突然成为自己最大敌人并失去投球能力的投手的简称。
They call it Steve Blass Disease.
他们称之为史蒂夫·布拉斯病。
Blass was an all-star, on the cover of Sports Illustrated .
布拉斯是一名全明星球员，登上了《体育画报》的封面。
Older fans remember him winning game seven of the 1971 World Series for the Pirates.
年长的球迷还记得他为海盗队赢得 1971 年世界大赛第七场比赛的胜利。
After the Series, he had a great season in '72, won 19 games.
系列赛结束后，他在 72 年度过了一个伟大的赛季，赢得了 19 场比赛。
And then, in 1973, for no apparent reason, no physical injury of any kind, he stopped being able to throw strikes.
然后，在 1973 年，由于没有任何明显的原因，也没有任何形式的身体伤害，他不再能够进行罢工。
He never recovered, and ended his career.
他再也没有康复，并结束了他的职业生涯。
He was a player falling apart for purely psychological reasons, which can happen to any athlete in any sport, of course.
他是一名纯粹因心理原因而崩溃的球员，当然，这种情况可能发生在任何运动项目的任何运动员身上。
But the suddenness of Blass' fall and the visibility of his fall-- he was one of the leading pitchers in baseball, and he just lost it-- it got people's attention.
但布拉斯摔倒的突然性和摔倒的可见性——他是棒球界的顶尖投手之一，但他刚刚失去了它——引起了人们的注意。
And if you want to understand what Steve Blass Disease is about, one place you can go is Steve Blass.
如果您想了解史蒂夫·布拉斯病是怎么一回事，您可以去史蒂夫·布拉斯 (Steve Blass)。
So I'm sitting in my living room with my wife.
所以我和妻子坐在客厅里。
We're watching the playoffs with the Cardinals.
我们正在观看红雀队的季后赛。
And Rick Ankiel starts throwing the ball all over the place-- behind people, to the backstop.
里克·安基尔（Rick Ankiel）开始把球扔到各处——从人们身后，到后卫。
Turns out Steve Blass was watching that same Cardinals game that Ken Fueson saw.
事实证明，史蒂夫·布拉斯 (Steve Blass) 正在观看肯·富森 (Ken Fueson) 观看的同一场红雀队比赛。
And I turned to my wife, Karen, and I said, "Karen, I'm predicting within the next five minutes, the phone will ring." Well, three minutes later, it rang.
我转向我的妻子凯伦，我说：“凯伦，我预测在接下来的五分钟内，电话会响。”果然，三分钟后，铃声响起。
And I picked it up and said, "Hi, Paul." My good friend, Paul Meyer, beat writer for the Pirates who was covering the playoffs for the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette .
我拿起它说：“嗨，保罗。”我的好朋友保罗·迈耶（Paul Meyer）击败了为《匹兹堡邮报》报道季后赛的海盗队作家。
He said, "How do you know it's me?" I said, "Well, of course it's you.
他说：“你怎么知道是我？”我说：“好吧，当然是你了。
Somebody just went off the planet again."
有人刚刚又离开了这个星球。”
How many interviews have you given about this over the years, do you think?
你认为这些年来你接受过多少次关于这个问题的采访？
I have an 800 number.
我有一个800号码。
Ira Glass [LAUGHS]
艾拉·格拉斯[笑]
I mean, whenever anybody-- when Rick Ankiel imploded in the playoffs, when Mark Wohlers was doing his thing, Steve Sax, Chuck Knoblauch And I know why there's interest.
我的意思是，每当任何人——当里克·安基尔在季后赛中崩溃时，当马克·沃勒斯在做他的事情时，史蒂夫·萨克斯，查克·诺布劳奇，我知道为什么会有兴趣。
I understand.
我明白。
I understand that.
我明白这一点。
People are making a living.
人们正在谋生。
It's a curious subject.
这是一个令人好奇的话题。
It's a fascinating subject to go from 19 wins, to three, to none, and then out.
从 19 场胜利，到 3 场胜利，再到没有胜利，然后出局，这是一个令人着迷的话题。
So I've had a great deal of patience with it.
所以我对此非常有耐心。
Steve Blass turns 70 this coming Wednesday.
史蒂夫·布拉斯 (Steve Blass) 本周三将迎来 70 岁生日。
And next month, he's publishing an autobiography called A Pirate for Life .
下个月，他将出版一本名为《一生的海盗》的自传。
The title refers to his 10 years as a player, and to the nearly three decades after that that he served as a Pirates color commentator on the air.
这个标题指的是他作为球员的十年，以及此后近三十年他担任海盗队色彩解说员的经历。
He says that he wrote the book to tell the story that you can come back from the kind of public collapse that he suffered.
他说他写这本书是为了讲述一个故事：你可以从他所遭受的公众崩溃中恢复过来。
In the immediate aftermath, he got a job selling school rings.
紧接着，他找到了一份销售校戒的工作。
He said he drank too much.
他说他喝太多了。
He says it was hard to go out to the grocery store and be recognized by people.
他说，去杂货店并被人们认出是很困难的。
The book covers, but does not dwell on, how his pitching career came apart, which he calls "the abyss." He says he can't name exactly when his problem began, what game it was.
这本书涵盖了他的投手生涯是如何崩溃的，但没有详细阐述，他称之为“深渊”。他说他无法准确说出问题是什么时候开始的，是什么游戏。
He remembers it as just a gradual slide.
他记得这只是一个逐渐下滑的过程。
There was not one specific issue, item, time, at bat, game.
没有一个特定的问题、项目、时间、击球、比赛。
And to this day, I don't know why.
直到今天，我也不知道为什么。
I don't know what caused that.
我不知道是什么原因造成的。
There's still frustration in me because I never had a sore arm, and I had the perfect body.
我内心仍然感到沮丧，因为我的手臂从来没有酸痛过，而且我的身体很完美。
You know, I wasn't heavy or anything.
你知道，我并不重或什么的。
But I still don't know exactly what caused it.
但我仍然不知道到底是什么原因造成的。
I've been going back and reading.
我已经回去读书了。
And I saw Roger Angell wrote a piece years ago for The New Yorker .
我看到罗杰·安吉尔几年前为《纽约客》写了一篇文章。
Wonderful piece.
精彩的作品。
Ira Glass Yeah, a really beautiful story.
艾拉·格拉斯 是的，一个非常美丽的故事。
And he tries to figure out, well, what game was it?
他试图弄清楚，这是什么游戏？
And he names an April, 1973, game with the Cubs that you pitched.
他还提到了 1973 年 4 月你投球的一场与小熊队的比赛。
And then he says, maybe it's that game.
然后他说，也许就是那场比赛。
And then, there's another game on June 11 with the Braves in Atlanta.
然后，6 月 11 日，还有一场与勇士队在亚特兰大举行的比赛。
And I was wondering, do you even remember either of those games?
我想知道，你还记得那些游戏吗？
Like, do those games stand out as significant?
比如，这些游戏是否具有重要意义？
Um, I don't remember the Cubs game.
嗯，我不记得小熊队的比赛了。
if he's referring to the game where I came in relief in Atlanta, which I think was the case, I remember it more than any other game I've pitched in my life because it was just-- it was the absolute bottom of the pit.
如果他指的是我在亚特兰大解围的那场比赛（我想确实如此），我对那场比赛的记忆比我一生中参加过的任何其他比赛都多，因为那是绝对的坑底。
And I remember after that game, we flew to Cincinnati.
我记得那场比赛结束后，我们飞往辛辛那提。
And I didn't even go to my hotel room.
我什至没有去我的酒店房间。
I just walked the streets of Cincinnati until dawn.
我就在辛辛那提的街道上一直走到黎明。
And it was just one of the awfulest games and awfulest nights that I've ever had in my life.
这只是我一生中经历过的最糟糕的比赛和最糟糕的夜晚之一。
And so what do you remember of the experience of being on the mound during that game?
那你还记得那场比赛中在投手丘上的经历吗？
Like, did it occur to you when you were on the mound, OK, something different is happening now that I haven't experienced before?
就像，当你在投手丘时，你有没有想到过，好吧，现在正在发生一些我以前没有经历过的不同的事情？
Yes.
是的。
That game in Atlanta, I said, there is something tragically wrong here.
我说，在亚特兰大的那场比赛，这里出了一些悲惨的问题。
And I am lost out here.
我在这里迷路了。
I don't have a clue of what I'm doing.
我不知道我在做什么。
I start to wind up, and I just kind of almost freeze.
我开始变得紧张起来，几乎僵住了。
And there's no flow, there's no rhythm.
而且没有流动性，没有节奏。
I knew I shouldn't be out there.
我知道我不应该在那里。
But I didn't want to quit.
但我不想放弃。
I wanted to keep trying to find it.
我想继续努力寻找它。
Roger Angell's account of that game-- I mean, I'm not even sure if I should read this or not.
罗杰·安吉尔对那场比赛的描述——我的意思是，我什至不确定我是否应该读这篇文章。
Oh, I know it by heart.
哦，我记在心里了。
Ira Glass Yeah-- oh, really?
Ira Glass 是的——哦，真的吗？
All right.
好的。
Just for listeners, then, so you get called in in the fifth inning.
那么，只是为了听众，所以你在第五局就被叫到了。
And the Pirates are trailing already.
而海盗队已经落后了。
So you're coming into a losing game.
所以你正在进入一场失败的游戏。
They're trailing by 8 to 3, and Roger Angell writes, "Blass walked the first two men he faced.
他们以 8 比 3 落后，罗杰·安吉尔 (Roger Angell) 写道：“布拉斯在他面对的前两名球员中保送了。
Gave up a stolen base, and a wild pitch, and run-scoring single before retiring the side.
在退出球队之前，放弃了盗垒、狂野的投球和跑动得分单打。
In the sixth, Blass walked Darrell Evans.
第六局，布拉斯保送了达雷尔·埃文斯。
He walked Mike Lum, throwing one pitch behind him in the process, which allowed Evans to move down to second.
他保送了迈克·鲁姆（Mike Lum），在此过程中向他身后扔了一个球，这使得埃文斯下降到了第二位。
Dusty Baker singled, driving in a run.
达斯蒂·贝克（Dusty Baker）单挑，一路奔跑。
Ralph Garr grounded out.
拉尔夫·加尔停飞。
Davey Johnson singled, scoring another run.
戴维·约翰逊单打，再次得分。
Marty Perez walked.
马蒂·佩雷斯走了过来。
Pitcher Ron Reed singled, driving in two more runs, and was wild pitched to second.
投手罗恩·里德（Ron Reed）单打，再投两分，疯狂投到第二位。
Johnny Oates walked.
约翰尼·奥茨走了过来。
Frank Tepedino singled, driving in two runs.
弗兰克·特佩迪诺（Frank Tepedino）单打，打出两分。
And Steve Blass was finally relieved."
史蒂夫·布拉斯终于松了口气。”
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
It was awful.
太糟糕了。
It was just-- it was a nightmare.
这只是——那是一场噩梦。
But I've been taught, and developed, and I firmly believe you don't quit.
但我已经被教导和发展了，我坚信你不会放弃。
I just wasn't wired that way.
我只是没有那样做。
And I wanted to be convinced.
我想被说服。
If it wasn't there, I wanted to be totally convinced.
如果它不存在，我想完全相信。
And that's why I pitched all of '73, obviously.
显然，这就是我在 73 年进行投球的原因。
And then, all of '74, which was another nightmare in the minor leagues.
然后，整个 74 年，这对小联盟来说是另一个噩梦。
And then in '75 I said, that's enough.
然后在 75 年我说，这就够了。
Uncle.
叔叔。
I've had enough.
我已经受够了。
I read you said to a Pittsburgh sports writer named Joe Starkey years ago, "Underneath, very privately and very personally, is a feeling I got cheated." And did you feel that it's almost like some foreign thing had taken over?
我读到你几年前对匹兹堡一位名叫乔·斯塔基的体育作家说过，“在内心深处，非常私密、非常个人化的是，我有一种被欺骗的感觉。”你是否觉得这几乎就像是某种外国事物接管了？
Like you were hit by something that you couldn't control?
就像你被某种无法控制的东西击中了一样？
Well, I certainly had no control over it, nor did I understand it.
嗯，我当然无法控制它，我也不理解它。
I was just confused.
我只是很困惑。
I mean, I would sit up in my backyard, 3 and 4 o'clock in the morning, thinking, my god, what has happened to me?
我的意思是，凌晨 3 点和 4 点，我会坐在后院，心想，天哪，我发生了什么事？
What is this?
这是什么？
Did somebody put a curse on me or something?
是有人对我下了咒语还是怎么的？
And I never believed that.
我从来不相信这一点。
You know, I don't believe in that junk.
你知道，我不相信那些垃圾。
But it was just-- it was devastating in that I didn't know what to do about it.
但这是毁灭性的，因为我不知道该怎么办。
In the decades since Steve Blass stopped pitching, researchers have been trying to figure out what to do about it and what is going on when a player falls apart like he did.
自从史蒂夫·布拉斯停止投球以来的几十年里，研究人员一直在试图弄清楚该怎么办，以及当一名球员像他一样崩溃时会发生什么。
And they believe that basically the problem comes down to thinking.
他们认为问题基本上归结于思维。
When an elite athlete is at his or her best, when they're in the zone, their movements are automatic.
当一名精英运动员处于最佳状态时，当他们处于最佳状态时，他们的动作是自动的。
They're not thinking about how their wrist turns, or their knee bends, or any of the other details.
他们不会考虑手腕如何转动、膝盖如何弯曲或任何其他细节。
And when researchers bring athletes into the lab with a simulated batting cage, or a putting green, when they tell them to think about the mechanics of what they're doing, to notice where exactly the bat is moving when they're swinging, or how their elbow shifts when they're putting, the athletes-- the overwhelming majority of them-- start to choke.
当研究人员将运动员带入带有模拟击球笼或果岭的实验室时，当他们告诉他们思考他们正在做的事情的机制，注意他们挥杆时球棒的具体移动位置，或者他们推杆时肘部如何移动时，运动员——他们中的绝大多数——开始窒息。
Thinking is the problem.
思想是问题。
And interestingly, two researchers named Steven Weiss and Arthur Reber have a paper called "Curing the Dreaded Steve Blass Disease," which is going to be published in the Journal of Sports Psychology in Action .
有趣的是，两位名叫史蒂文·韦斯（Steven Weiss）和亚瑟·雷伯（Arthur Reber）的研究人员发表了一篇名为“治愈可怕的史蒂夫·布拉斯病”的论文，该论文将发表在《运动心理学杂志》上。
And they argue that when well-meaning coaches tell an athlete in a slump to focus more on the mechanics-- which they say is common still-- the coach can actually make things worse, not better, because he's telling a player who's already thinking too much to think even more.
他们认为，当善意的教练告诉处于低迷状态的运动员更多地关注技术时（他们说这种情况仍然很常见），教练实际上会让事情变得更糟，而不是更好，因为他告诉一个已经想得太多的球员不要想得更多。
We have to somehow figure out a way to get you to stop thinking.
我们必须想办法让你停止思考。
You have to find some sort of mental distraction that allows them to go back to just rely upon their instincts.
你必须找到某种精神分散方法，让他们重新依靠自己的直觉。
This is Rick Wolff.
这是里克·沃尔夫。
He was a baseball player himself in the minor leagues, and he went on to counsel professional athletes whose minds were working against them.
他本人是小联盟的一名棒球运动员，后来他为那些思想与他们作对的职业运动员提供咨询。
Wolff's job was to redirect them, stop them from thinking about the mechanics of what they were doing.
沃尔夫的工作是引导他们，阻止他们思考他们正在做的事情的机制。
So if you're having problems as a pitcher throwing strikes, I need for you to stop thinking about or worrying about that.
因此，如果你作为投手投掷好球时遇到问题，我需要你停止思考或担心这一点。
And as you wind up, I want to think about something totally different.
当你结束时，我想考虑一些完全不同的事情。
It might be I want you to really focus on the catcher's left shin guard.
也许我希望你真正关注接球手的左胫骨护卫。
I'm just trying to get them to stop thinking about where their arm angle is, and how they're delivering the ball to the plate.
我只是想让他们停止思考他们的手臂角度在哪里，以及他们如何将球传到本垒板。
And does that work?
这有效吗？
Rick Sometimes it does.
瑞克 有时确实如此。
Sometimes it doesn't.
有时则不然。
It just seems like a hard thing because the more you try not to think about something, the more you're thinking about it.
这似乎是一件很难的事情，因为你越是试图不去想某件事，你就越会去想它。
Do most of them get over it?
大多数人都克服了吗？
Do most of them not get over it?
大多数人都没有克服它吗？
I would say it's about 50%.
我想说大约是50%。
Ira Glass Some of things the study says that athletes might focus on if they want to avoid thinking, they can focus on the catcher's mitt or on wherever it is that the ball is supposed to go.
Ira Glass 研究表明，如果运动员想避免思考，他们可能会关注一些事情，他们可以关注接球手的手套或球应该去的任何地方。
Golfers can focus on one word, like a general thought that describes the swing they want, like "smooth."
高尔夫球手可以专注于一个词，就像描述他们想要的挥杆的一般想法，比如“平滑”。
Steve Blass tried everything to get out of his abyss.
史蒂夫·布拉斯尝试了一切方法来摆脱深渊。
He tried pitching from his knees.
他尝试用膝盖投球。
He tried pitching from second base.
他尝试从二垒投球。
He tried pitching every night in the bullpen, and he tried to take a week off to see if the rest helped him.
他每天晚上都尝试在牛棚里投球，并尝试休息一周，看看休息是否对他有帮助。
He watched himself on video and compared it to video of when he was pitching well.
他观看了自己的视频，并将其与自己投球良好时的视频进行了比较。
He went to a hypnotist and to a psychologist.
他去找催眠师和心理学家。
He learned meditation and practiced it.
他学习了冥想并进行了练习。
When a friend suggested changing to looser underwear, he laughed about it with his teammates.
当一位朋友建议换上宽松的内衣时，他和队友们一起笑了起来。
And then, he tried it.
然后，他尝试了。
Some of these cures focused him more on his mechanics.
其中一些治疗方法让他更加专注于他的力学。
Some of them tried to take his mind off of his mechanics.
他们中的一些人试图让他把注意力从机械师身上转移开。
None of them worked.
他们都没有工作。
When you see other players go through this, like watching Rick Ankiel on television, is it hard for you to watch?
当你看到其他球员经历这一切时，就像在电视上观看 Rick Ankiel 一样，你会觉得很难看吗？
Oh, very difficult.
噢，非常困难。
In fact, Ankiel was still trying to pitch when I was broadcasting, when they would come into Pittsburgh.
事实上，当我广播时，当他们来到匹兹堡时，安基尔仍在尝试推销。
And I watched one of his last games.
我观看了他最后一场比赛。
And it was just heartbreaking because I knew what he was going through.
这真是令人心碎，因为我知道他正在经历什么。
And so I don't want to say it was difficult for me, because what I do, I try to do professionally.
所以我不想说这对我来说很困难，因为我所做的事情，我尝试专业地做。
But it was very, very uncomfortable for me to watch, very sad for me to watch.
但这对我来说非常非常不舒服，非常悲伤。
You must have said something during the broadcast, though, when you saw him.
不过，当你看到他时，你一定在广播中说了些什么。
I said-- yeah.
我说——是的。
I said, this is very difficult for me to watch.
我说，这对我来说很难看。
I'm not enjoying this.
我不喜欢这个。
The Pirates are benefiting because of what he's going through.
海盗们因为他所经历的事情而受益。
But it's not the most comfortable thing for me to watch because it brings back some memories.
但这对我来说并不是最舒服的事情，因为它带回了一些回忆。
Hm.
嗯。
So there's a chapter in your book that's called "They Named a Disease After Me." Is it annoying to have your name attached to this?
你的书中有一章叫做“他们以我的名字命名一种疾病”。把你的名字附在上面是不是很烦人？
It's not my favorite thing.
这不是我最喜欢的事情。
I'm not crazy about it.
我并不为此疯狂。
But I understand it.
但我明白。
Every once in a while, I get a little frustrated and say, you know what?
每隔一段时间，我就会感到有点沮丧，然后说，你知道吗？
Why don't we talk a little more about the seventh game of the World Series?
我们为什么不多谈谈世界职业棒球大赛的第七场比赛呢？
Mm-hm.
嗯嗯。
Steve Blass Come on!
史蒂夫·布拉斯 加油！
I mean, the average major league career is 3.7 years.
我的意思是，大联盟的平均职业生涯是 3.7 年。
And I pitched for 10 years and won 100 games.
我投了10年球，赢得了100场比赛。
Come on, let's talk about some of that stuff.
来吧，我们来谈谈其中的一些事情。
Let's go!
我们走吧！
I mean, you're talking about two years out of a charmed life.
我的意思是，你说的是两年的美好生活。
I lived my dream.
我实现了我的梦想。
I mean, how many people get to do that?
我的意思是，有多少人能做到这一点？
So I had a couple of difficult years, very difficult years.
所以我度过了一段艰难的岁月，非常艰难的岁月。
But I've been blessed.
但我已经被祝福了。
And I'm not a religious person, but I've been blessed.
我不是一个有宗教信仰的人，但我很幸运。
Blass says a few years ago he met with a sport psychiatrist named Richard Crowley who taught him a technique.
布拉斯说，几年前，他遇到了一位名叫理查德·克劳利的运动精神病学家，他教了他一项技巧。
He says it's something to do with trading negative thoughts for positive ones.
他说这与将消极想法换成积极想法有关。
And decades after he left baseball, he got back on the mound.
离开棒球几十年后，他又回到了投手丘。
He now pitches games where former pros and amateurs play together.
他现在负责让前职业选手和业余选手一起比赛。
It is a long way from the majors.
距离专业还有很远的距离。
But Blass says he got what he wanted-- the pleasure of throwing the ball again.
但布拉斯说他得到了他想要的——再次投球的乐趣。
"I had the joy of throwing a baseball since I was eight years old," he says.
“从八岁起，我就有了投掷棒球的乐趣，”他说。
And he really missed that.
他真的很怀念这一点。
Act Two, The Conversation.
第二幕，对话。
There's this new podcast out there that's trying to re-imagine and reinvent one of the old radio formats, a format that is barely holding on.
有一个新的播客正在尝试重新想象和重新发明一种旧的广播格式，这种格式几乎已经不再流行。
You barely hear this format outside of Prairie Home Companion or Bible stations-- radio drama.
在 Prairie Home Companion 或圣经电台（广播剧）之外，你几乎听不到这种格式。
They're trying to make radio drama that doesn't sound like an antique thing from the 1940s, but feels completely contemporary.
他们正在尝试制作听起来不像 20 世纪 40 年代古董的广播剧，而是完全现代的感觉。
What I find interesting about this is it's like they took the sound of programs like Radio Lab , or our program, and they use all of the production techniques and tools that go with that, but with actors in a drama.
我觉得有趣的是，他们采用了像 Radio Lab 或我们的节目这样的节目的声音，他们使用了与之相关的所有制作技术和工具，但与戏剧中的演员一起使用。
So what you're about to hear is a work of fiction from producer, director Jonathan Mitchell and The Truth .
因此，您将听到的是制片人、导演乔纳森·米切尔和《真相》的一部虚构作品。
It was our first date.
这是我们第一次约会。
We had never met.
我们从未见过面。
Hey, can I get you anything?
嘿，我能给你买点什么吗？
Ben Uh, me?
本 呃，我？
Yeah.
是的。
Ben We'd emailed, but we hadn't even spoken.
本：我们发了电子邮件，但我们甚至没有说过话。
Well, I should wait.
嗯，我应该等待。
Jonathan And I was waiting for her.
乔纳森 我正在等她。
Waiting, and waiting, and waiting.
等待，等待，再等待。
Hi, Ben.
嗨，本。
It's Erica calling.
是艾丽卡打来的。
Ben Hey, Erica!
本嘿，艾丽卡！
How are you?
你好吗？
Hi, I'm-- I'm so sorry.
嗨，我很抱歉。
I'm running just a little bit late.
我只是跑得有点晚了。
OK, that's OK.
好吧，没关系。
That's totally OK.
那完全没问题。
I'm here.
我在这儿。
OK, Tulip's-- you know, Tulip's been sick lately.
好吧，郁金香的——你知道，郁金香最近病了。
So I had to-- I finally took her to the vet.
所以我不得不——我最终带她去看了兽医。
Oh.
哦。
Is she OK?
她还好吗？
Erica She is, she is.
艾丽卡 她是，她是。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Good.
好的。
Do you know how long you're going to be?
你知道你要呆多久吗？
I-- look, I just got out of the subway, and I'm walking down the street, so very soon.
我——看，我刚出地铁，就在街上走，很快。
All right, great.
好吧，太好了。
Do you want me order you a drink so it's ready for when you get here?
您需要我为您点一杯饮料，以便您到达时可以享用吗？
Do you not want to do this?
你不想这样做吗？
Because we don't have to do this.
因为我们不必这样做。
Know what, my reception's really bad.
你知道吗，我的接待能力真的很差。
I don't think I'm hearing right.
我觉得我没听错。
So I'm-- just let me run outside real quick.
所以我——让我快点跑出去吧。
All right, that is better.
好吧，这样更好。
Can you hear me?
你能听到我吗？
Yeah, hi.
是的，嗨。
Ben You know, Erica, I think I see you.
本 你知道，艾丽卡，我想我看到你了。
Do you see me?
你看到我了吗？
I'm right outside the bar.
我就在酒吧外面。
I'm waving.
我在挥手。
You didn't need to say that.
你没必要这么说。
That was really unnecessary.
那确实是没有必要的。
I'm sorry.
对不起。
I'm not sure what I said.
我不确定我说了什么。
But I'm sorry.
但我很抱歉。
You know, I was-- I was really actually looking forward to this.
你知道，我真的很期待这一点。
What do you mean you were looking forward to this?
你这么期待这个是什么意思？
What are you doing?
你在干什么？
Forget it.
忘了它。
Ben You're walking the wrong way.
本 你走错路了。
Are you still there?
你还在吗？
Erica, are you joking?
艾丽卡，你在开玩笑吗？
What is going on?
到底是怎么回事？
Erica!
艾丽卡！
Hello, are you on the phone still?
你好，你还在打电话吗？
The hell!
见鬼！
--I couldn't tell if she was still on, or if she hung up.
——我不知道她是否还在通话，或者是否挂断了电话。
And I'm looking at my phone.
我正在看我的手机。
And I see that I had recently downloaded this app that records phone calls.
我发现我最近下载了这个记录电话的应用程序。
And I looked at it and was like, I gotta listen to that recording.
我看着它，心想，我得听听那个录音。
Hello.
你好。
Erica Hi, Ben.
艾丽卡嗨，本。
It's Erica calling.
是艾丽卡打来的。
Started out the same exact way as I had just recalled it.
开始的方式和我刚刚回忆起来的一模一样。
Then, it starts to sound like not me.
然后，它开始听起来不像我。
Uh-- look, I just got out the subway.
呃——看，我刚出地铁。
I'm walking down the street, so very soon.
我正在街上走，所以很快。
OK, great.
好的，太好了。
Do you want me to order you a drink so it's ready for when you get here?
您需要我为您点一杯饮料，以便您到达时可以享用吗？
Do you not want to do this?
你不想这样做吗？
Because we don't have to do.
因为我们不需要做。
You know what?
你知道吗？
Um, my reception's really bad.
嗯，我的接待真的很糟糕。
I don't think I'm hearing right.
我觉得我没听错。
It's the exact same words that I believe I had just said.
我相信这与我刚才所说的一模一样。
But when I listen to tape, it sounded like not me.
但当我听磁带时，听起来不像我。
You know what, Erica?
你知道吗，艾丽卡？
I think I see you.
我想我看到你了。
Do you see me?
你看到我了吗？
I'm right outside the bar.
我就在酒吧外面。
I don't know who that was.
我不知道那是谁。
That wasn't me.
那不是我。
I'm not that person.
我不是那个人。
You know, I was-- I was really actually looking forward to this.
你知道，我真的很期待这一点。
What do you mean you're looking forward to this?
你这么期待这个是什么意思？
What are you doing?
你在干什么？
Forget it.
忘了它。
Ben I'm glad she hung up because, god, what would I have said next?
本，我很高兴她挂了电话，因为天哪，我接下来会说什么？
I wanted to, like, run after her, and find her, and apologize.
我想追赶她，找到她，并向她道歉。
But I was like, I should never say another word as long as I live.
但我想，只要我活着，我就不应该再说一句话。
You tell me right now.
你现在就告诉我。
Do I sound rude to you?
我对你来说听起来很粗鲁吗？
Did that sound rude when I say, "Do I sound rude?"
当我说“我听起来很粗鲁吗？”时，这听起来是否很粗鲁？
Honey, you sound confused.
亲爱的，你听起来很困惑。
Ben I am confused!
本我很困惑！
Honey, just call her-- call her and try again.
亲爱的，给她打电话——打电话给她，然后再试一次。
No, it's just not like I can pick up the phone and call her unless I know what the hell I'm doing wrong.
不，我不可能拿起电话给她打电话，除非我知道我到底做错了什么。
Sweetie, it's probably just a misunderstanding.
亲爱的，这可能只是一场误会。
Well, could you listen to the tape and tell me if I sound--
好吧，你能听一下录音带并告诉我我的声音是否——
Why not?
为什么不呢？
Woman Because that's not my-- ah, ah, ah!
女人因为那不是我的——啊啊啊！
Stop that!
别这样！
You stop that right-- get down!
你停下来吧——趴下！
Get off that!
摆脱那个！
It's just one phone call, Mom, and it's really short.
妈妈，这只是一个电话，而且时间很短。
No, honey.
不亲爱的。
I am not listening to your discussion with a girl.
我不是在听你和一个女孩讨论。
Why?
为什么？
Why not?
为什么不呢？
Woman Because that's just creepy.
女人 因为那太令人毛骨悚然了。
Do I sound creepy?
我听起来令人毛骨悚然吗？
Woman You sound like you sound.
女人 你听起来就像你的声音。
Hi!
你好！
Hi.
你好。
Well, here we are, huh?
嗯，我们到了，是吧？
I'm so glad to finally meet you.
我很高兴终于见到你了。
I just was testing out some recordings of myself to hear whether or not it was the device, or the way it was recorded, or something.
我只是在测试自己的一些录音，看看是否是设备的问题，或者录音的方式，或者其他什么。
Your laugh is contagious.
你的笑声很有感染力。
And then, I would play it back.
然后，我会回放它。
Well, here we are, huh?
嗯，我们到了，是吧？
And it sounded fine.
听起来不错。
I took the recording of the call between me and Erica, and I loaded it in my computer.
我录下了我和艾丽卡之间的通话录音，并将其加载到我的电脑中。
And I wanted to analyze it.
我想分析一下。
So I divided it up, took my side of the conversation, and cut that out, and separated the two.
所以我把它分开，站在谈话的一边，把它剪掉，把两者分开。
Hi, Ben.
嗨，本。
It's Erica calling.
是艾丽卡打来的。
Hi, I'm-- I'm so sorry.
嗨，我很抱歉。
I'm running just a little bit late.
我只是跑得有点晚了。
Categories, subcategories-- I just put all the questions in one file, and then all of her statements in another file, and then--
类别、子类别——我只是将所有问题放在一个文件中，然后将她的所有陈述放在另一个文件中，然后——
Do you now want to do this?
您现在想这样做吗？
Because we don't have to do this.
因为我们不必这样做。
I mean, yeah, she was upset.
我的意思是，是的，她很沮丧。
Erica Yes, I see you!
艾丽卡 是的，我看到你了！
I see-- hi.
我明白了——嗨。
She was also patient, and-- Erica Yeah, I am OK.
她也很有耐心，而且——艾丽卡，是的，我很好。
You know, I was-- I was really actually looking forward to this.
你知道，我真的很期待这一点。
And I thought, well, what if I put something in there that I know is nice.
我想，好吧，如果我把一些我知道很好的东西放在那里怎么办？
I was really actually looking forward to this.
我真的很期待这个。
Yeah, me too, definitely.
是的，我也是，绝对的。
It sounded great.
听起来很棒。
So, you know, I just for fun kind of expanded on that and--
所以，你知道，我只是为了好玩而对此进行了扩展——
Oh, these are for you.
哦，这些是给你的。
Erica You didn't need to--
艾丽卡你不需要——
I know I didn't need to.
我知道我不需要。
I think you said these were your favorite, right?
我想你说过这些是你最喜欢的，对吗？
That was really unnecessary.
那确实是没有必要的。
Ben Well, you only get one first date.
本 好吧，你只有一次第一次约会的机会。
Yeah.
是的。
Ben You want to set up a second date this early in our first date?
Ben 你想在我们第一次约会这么早就安排第二次约会吗？
Yeah!
是的！
Very soon.
很快。
Ben Why couldn't it have gone that way?
本 为什么事情不能朝那个方向发展呢？
You know, I remember being a lot better at ice skating.
你知道，我记得我滑冰技术好多了。
Do you not want to do this?
你不想这样做吗？
Because we don't have to do this.
因为我们不必这样做。
You're just saying that because we're both unable to get back up.
你这么说只是因为我们都无力回天了。
Yeah-- hi.
是的——嗨。
Ben Hi.
本嗨。
What do you call that awesome move you were just attempting?
你怎么称呼你刚刚尝试的那个很棒的举动？
Walking down the street.
走在街上。
Ben You really sold it with the whole falling hard on your butt thing.
本尤真的把整个摔倒在屁股上的事情卖掉了。
Yeah, I am OK.
是的，我很好。
Ben And the article said that like 90% of the world's oceans are unexplored.
Ben 文章称，世界上 90% 的海洋尚未开发。
You know?
你知道？
And we think we know everything.
我们认为我们知道一切。
But most of our knowledge is--
但我们大部分的知识是——
--really unnecessary.
——实在没必要。
Ben Right, yeah, exactly!
本 对，是的，完全正确！
Totally unnecessary!
完全没有必要！
I mean, do you think that there are things that will always remain a mystery?
我的意思是，你认为有些事情永远是个谜吗？
I'm so sorry!
我很抱歉！
Ben It's OK.
本 没关系。
I know what the problem is.
我知道问题是什么。
We're working with a limited supply of words here.
我们这里的字数有限。
I-- I know.
我——我知道。
Ben Let me think.
本 让我想想。
OK, how's your steak.
好的，你的牛排怎么样？
Good?
好的？
Sure?
当然？
Ben Sure?
本当然吗？
Sure?
当然？
Sure.
当然。
I wish you could just say that it was awesome, or succulent, or terrible!
我希望你能说它太棒了，或者多汁，或者可怕！
Like an old shoe.
就像一只旧鞋。
Ben, I'm so sorry-- Ben No, Erica, you-- you need more words.
本，我很抱歉 - 本 不，艾丽卡，你 - 你需要更多的话。
You don't have to do this.
你不必这样做。
Ben Let me just get you some more words.
本 让我再跟你说几句话。
Yeah, we used to-- well, we almost went out on a date.
是的，我们曾经——嗯，我们差点就出去约会了。
I'm fine.
我很好。
Ben Good, me too.
本 好，我也是。
I'm just calling because I felt like-- I just wanted to say that I felt bad about how things ended up.
我打电话只是因为我觉得——我只是想说我对事情的结局感到难过。
And I wanted to apologize, so.
我想道歉，所以。
Uh, cool.
呃，酷。
I just-- you know, I made you feel really upset.
我只是——你知道，我让你感到非常沮丧。
And I feel bad about that, so I just--
我对此感到难过，所以我只是——
Don't-- don't worry about it.
别——别担心。
I wasn't that upset, so.
我并没有那么沮丧，所以。
Well then, I mean, you just walked away like that.
那么，我的意思是，你就这样走开了。
So I just-- you definitely seemed--
所以我只是——你看起来确实——
Right, right.
对，对。
Well, I-- I walked away-- I was very upset because of earlier that night, my dog, Tulip, died.
好吧，我——我走开了——我非常难过，因为那天晚上早些时候，我的狗郁金香死了。
I'm so sorry.
我很抱歉。
Erica So-- yeah, yeah, thank you.
艾丽卡·苏——是的，是的，谢谢。
Thanks.
谢谢。
Sorry.
对不起。
But she didn't die that day, though?
但那天她并没有死？
What?
什么？
Ben She didn't die that day.
本·她那天并没有死。
That's not-- That's not what happened.
事实并非如此。
Yes, she did.
是的，她做到了。
She died.
她死了。
Ben Mm-hm, right.
本 嗯，对。
But, well, you just were coming from the vet.
但是，好吧，你刚刚去看兽医。
And you were just sad that she was sick.
而你只是因为她生病而感到难过。
OK, well, I think I remember when my dog died.
好吧，我想我记得我的狗死的时候。
No, that's-- well, it's wrong because-- I mean, I know-- I know what you said.
不，那是——嗯，这是错误的，因为——我的意思是，我知道——我知道你说的。
Are you kidding me?
你在开玩笑吧？
Ben No. I could play it back to you if you want, but I mean it's--
本 不，如果你愿意的话我可以给你回放，但我的意思是——
What do you mean you could play it back to me?
你可以播放给我听是什么意思？
You recorded our phone call?
你录了我们的电话吗？
Ben Yeah, I just accidentally-- it was an accident.
本 是的，我只是不小心——这是一次意外。
Oh my god.
我的天啊。
Ben I recorded it.
本，我录下来了。
And I've listened to it a bunch of times.
而且我已经听了很多遍了。
So I know exactly what you said.
所以我很清楚你说的是什么。
Yeah.
是的。
I know.
我知道。
Erica That's super creepy.
艾丽卡 这太令人毛骨悚然了。
Well-- Erica Wait, are you recording this phone call right now?
嗯——艾丽卡等等，你现在正在录音这个电话吗？
[SIGHS] Erica Oh my god!
[叹气] 艾丽卡 天哪！
What is your problem?
你有什么问题吗？
No, I'm not!
不，我不是！
You're-- what is your problem?
你——你有什么问题吗？
Because-- why would you say that your dog is just sick if she's dead, or either that, or you're lying now about your dog?
因为——如果你的狗死了，你为什么会说你的狗只是生病了，或者要么是这样，要么你现在在你的狗的事情上撒了谎？
God, I lied, OK?
天哪，我撒谎了，好吗？
I lied then.
我当时撒谎了。
Get over it.
克服它。
OK, sorry.
好吧，抱歉。
I'm sorry about your dog, too.
我也为你的狗感到难过。
I know that's--
我知道那是——
My dog is fine.
我的狗很好。
She's not dead, OK?
她没有死，好吗？
God.
上帝。
Well, yeah.
嗯，是的。
Erica I met someone else.
艾丽卡 我遇到了另一个人。
The night before you and I were supposed to go out, I met this great guy and we fell in love because he's awesome.
在你和我打算出去的前一天晚上，我遇到了这个很棒的人，我们坠入爱河，因为他很棒。
And I showed up to tell you.
我出现是为了告诉你。
And then you acted so crazy.
然后你就表现得很疯狂。
You know what?
你知道吗？
It was a-- it was a really weird night.
这是一个非常奇怪的夜晚。
Yeah.
是的。
Erica And I couldn't deal.
艾丽卡：我没办法。
And I wanted to see Derek.
我想见德里克。
That's what I did, and that's what I did.
这就是我所做的，这就是我所做的。
How do you fall in love with someone in one night?
怎样才能在一夜之间爱上一个人？
I don't-- um.
我不——嗯。
I don't really know what to say.
我真的不知道该说什么。
I just-- wait, oh, my phone's gonna die.
我只是——等等，哦，我的手机要没电了。
Let-- I'm going to-- can I call you right back?
让--我要--我可以马上给你回电话吗？
Actually, don't do it.
事实上，不要这样做。
Ben I'm gonna call you right ba--
本，我会叫你对吧——
Hey, we were talking, and I had to, um--
嘿，我们正在说话，我不得不，嗯--
I'm fine.
我很好。
Ben Good.
本·古德.
I just needed to tell you something.
我只是需要告诉你一些事情。
[SIGHS] Ben Hey, come on, now.
[叹气] Ben Hey，来吧，现在。
No, we-- we gave it a shot.
不，我们——我们尝试过。
You know?
你知道？
But the thing is, you're not real.
但问题是，你并不真实。
And real you is right.
真实的你是对的。
This is super creepy.
这太令人毛骨悚然了。
It's super creepy.
太令人毛骨悚然了。
Ben Yeah.
本 是的。
What the hell have I been doing?
我到底做了什么？
I acted like a jerk, and I don't know.
我表现得像个混蛋，但我不知道。
It's been like I'm trying to undo it, or figure it out, or something.
就好像我试图撤销它，或者弄清楚它，或者什么。
And I mean, the reality is I acted like a jerk because at that moment, I was a jerk.
我的意思是，现实是我表现得像个混蛋，因为在那一刻，我就是个混蛋。
Don't-- don't worry about it.
别——别担心。
I wasn't that upset, so.
我并没有那么沮丧，所以。
Those actors, Ed Herbstman and Tami Sagher, with Libby George as the mom and Christian Paluck very briefly as the bartender.
这些演员是艾德·赫布斯特曼和塔米·萨格，利比·乔治饰演母亲，克里斯蒂安·帕拉克短暂饰演调酒师。
This story was produced and directed by Jonathan Mitchell, who also did the music.
这个故事由乔纳森·米切尔制作和导演，他也创作了音乐。
The story was written by Jonathan Mitchell, Ed Herbstman, and Melanie Hoops.
这个故事由乔纳森·米切尔、艾德·赫布斯特曼和梅兰妮·胡普斯撰写。
If you liked what you just heard, they're doing one like this every two weeks on their podcast that's called The Truth .
如果您喜欢刚刚听到的内容，他们每两周都会在名为“The Truth”的播客上做这样的一件事。
Their website, thetruthapm.com, or look for The Truth podcast at the iTunes store.
他们的网站 thetruthapm.com，或者在 iTunes 商店查找 The Truth 播客。
Coming up, a man who does not approve of homosexuality whose biggest problem is he is homosexual.
接下来是一个不赞成同性恋的男人，他最大的问题就是他是同性恋。
Stories of being your own worst enemy continue in a minute from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续时，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续讲述“成为自己最大的敌人”的故事。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme, bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，我们每周的节目都会选择一个主题，为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's program, Own Worst Enemy, stories of people who thwart themselves in ways that they do not seem to be able to control.
今天的节目《自己最坏的敌人》讲述了人们以似乎无法控制的方式挫败自己的故事。
We have arrived at Act Three of our show.
我们已经到了节目的第三幕了。
Act Three, Just As I Am.
第三幕，正如我一样。
This last story is about somebody who is at war with himself.
最后一个故事是关于一个与自己交战的人。
He's a gay man, a Christian, who did not want to be gay or act on his feelings for men.
他是一个同性恋者，一个基督徒，他不想成为同性恋，也不想按照自己对男人的感情行事。
And he didn't just want to suppress this impulse in himself.
而他并不仅仅是想压抑自己内心的这种冲动。
He wasn't just his own worst enemy.
他最大的敌人不仅仅是他自己。
He tried to get other gay men and women to suppress that part of themselves as well.
他试图让其他同性恋者也压抑自己的这一部分。
But then, through a series of actions that can only be described as very Christian, this man changed.
但后来，通过一系列只能被形容为非常基督徒的行动，这个人改变了。
Jonathan Menjivar tells what happened.
乔纳森·门吉瓦尔讲述了发生的事情。
The guy's name was John Smid, and he ran an organization called Love in Action, one of those Christian places that claims they can cure people of their homosexuality.
这个人的名字叫约翰·斯密德，他经营着一个名为“爱在行动”的组织，这是一个声称可以治愈人们同性恋的基督教场所之一。
Make them not exactly straight, but ex-gay.
让他们不再是异性恋，而是前同性恋。
It was in Memphis, Tennessee.
那是在田纳西州孟菲斯。
And at the time, it was the oldest and most prominent ex-gay ministry in the world.
当时，它是世界上最古老、最著名的前同性恋事工。
One former client told me it was considered the Cadillac of ex-gay programs.
一位前客户告诉我，它被认为是前同性恋项目中的凯迪拉克。
The rules were harsh, the level of shame, intense.
规则很严厉，羞辱程度也很强烈。
Former clients have spent years in therapy unwinding what happened to them at Love in Action.
前客户花了数年时间进行治疗，以解开他们在“爱在行动”中发生的事情。
And John Smid was the head of that group for more than two decades.
约翰·斯密德 (John Smid) 担任该小组的负责人已有二十多年。
As for his own homosexuality, John never tried to hide it.
至于自己的同性恋倾向，约翰从未试图隐瞒。
It was part of his testimony he'd give at church and ex-gay events.
这是他在教堂和前同性恋活动中所作见证的一部分。
John was married at 19.
约翰 19 岁结婚。
And then, after having two kids, he realized he was gay.
然后，在有了两个孩子后，他意识到自己是同性恋。
He got divorced, had a couple gay relationships.
他离婚了，有过几段同性恋关系。
John says he was also pretty promiscuous.
约翰说他也很滥交。
And then, in his late 20s, he found god and stopped living as a gay man.
然后，在他二十多岁的时候，他找到了上帝，不再以同性恋者的身份生活。
This is John giving that testimony on an old Christian TV segment.
这是约翰在一个古老的基督教电视节目中作的见证。
John says he was in this little, country church in Iowa.
约翰说他当时在爱荷华州的一座乡村小教堂里。
I just remember sitting in the pew.
我只记得坐在长椅上。
And this voice spoke into my brain, "John," called my name, "you don't have to live like this anymore." It was just that point when God spoke, and I gained permission to ask for freedom.
这个声音对我的大脑说话，“约翰”，呼唤着我的名字，“你不必再这样生活了。”就在那时，上帝说话了，我获得了请求自由的许可。
And I started praying every day.
我开始每天祈祷。
I just kept saying every day, God, get me out of this.
我每天都不停地说，上帝啊，让我摆脱这一切。
Get me out of this.
让我摆脱这一切。
I'm miserable.
我很痛苦。
God, get me out of this.
上帝啊，让我摆脱这一切吧。
And eventually, I got to the point where I left the partners and the relationships.
最终，我离开了合作伙伴和人际关系。
And that was the end of my homosexuality.
这就是我同性恋的终结。
John made a new life for himself, dated women, and then he married one, his second wife.
约翰为自己创造了新的生活，与女人约会，然后他娶了一位女人，他的第二任妻子。
he soon got a job encouraging other gay men to live the way he was.
他很快找到了一份工作，鼓励其他男同性恋者按照他的方式生活。
And then, almost 20 years after John joined Love in Action, he decided to expand their mission.
然后，在约翰加入“爱在行动”近 20 年后，他决定扩大他们的使命。
Love in Action had always been for adults.
行动中的爱一直是成年人的专利。
But John says he was seeing a dramatic increase in teens coming.
但约翰说，他看到青少年的数量急剧增加。
Their parents were calling Love in Action more and more.
他们的父母越来越多地呼吁“爱在行动”。
So they started a new program specifically for teenagers.
因此他们开始了一个专门针对青少年的新计划。
At the time, Love in Action had just bought a new building.
当时，爱在行动刚刚买了一座新大楼。
It was step up for them.
这对他们来说是一个进步。
Then, John came to work.
然后，约翰来上班了。
It was the first day of the new teen program.
这是新的青少年计划的第一天。
It was 8:30, June 6, 2005, sitting in my office.
那是 2005 年 6 月 6 日上午 8 点 30 分，我坐在我的办公室里。
And one of my staff members came in and said, a client just came and told us that there's a big protest outside.
我的一名员工进来说，一位客户刚刚来告诉我们外面有一场大规模的抗议活动。
It's OK to be gay!
成为同性恋没关系！
Jonathan And then, what did you do?
乔纳森 然后，你做了什么？
Freaked out.
吓坏了。
Protesters It's OK to be gay!
抗议者 同性恋没关系！
I didn't know what to do.
我不知道该怎么办。
I felt incredibly exposed.
我感到难以置信的暴露。
It was the first day in our building.
这是我们大楼的第一天。
We had just moved in.
我们刚搬进来。
Homosexuality is not a sin.
同性恋不是罪。
Homosexuality is not an addiction!
同性恋不是瘾！
The new program for teens was called Refuge, and it's why the protesters were there.
针对青少年的新计划被称为“避难所”，这就是抗议者在那里的原因。
Love in Action was a voluntary program.
“爱在行动”是一项自愿计划。
But Refuge was different, at least according to a 16-year-old kid named Zach Stark.
但《避难所》不一样，至少对于一个名叫扎克·斯塔克 (Zach Stark) 的 16 岁孩子来说是这样。
A week earlier, Zach had posted on his MySpace page saying that he had come out and his parents didn't take it well.
一周前，扎克在他的 MySpace 页面上发帖称，他出柜了，但他的父母对此不太接受。
So they were forcing him to go to Refuge.
所以他们强迫他去避难所。
"They tell me that there is something psychologically wrong with me," Zach wrote.
“他们告诉我，我的心理有问题，”扎克写道。
"I'm a big screw up to them who isn't on the path God wants me to be on."
“对他们来说，我是个大麻烦，因为我没有走上上帝希望我走的道路。”
It was impossible not to want to help him.
不想帮助他是不可能的。
This is Morgan Jon Fox.
这是摩根·乔恩·福克斯。
He's a Memphis filmmaker, and he was pretty much the ringleader of the protests.
他是孟菲斯的一名电影制作人，他几乎是抗议活动的头目。
He'd read Zach's blog and pulled together other activists and a bunch of Zach's friends from high school.
他阅读了扎克的博客，并召集了其他活动人士和扎克的一群高中朋友。
Morgan is gay himself, and he filmed a lot of the protest.
摩根本人是同性恋，他拍摄了很多抗议活动。
He and all the other protesters couldn't believe what they were reading on Zach's blog.
他和所有其他抗议者都不敢相信他们在扎克的博客上读到的内容。
To them, it seemed like a cry for help.
对他们来说，这似乎是一种呼救。
And then, he goes on to explain that he ran away for a day, and now he's come back.
然后，他继续解释说，他逃了一天，现在回来了。
And he's writing these blog entries in the middle of the night.
他是在半夜写这些博客文章的。
And that if he gets caught, you know, it could be very bad.
如果他被抓住了，你知道，情况可能会非常糟糕。
And then, he went on to post the rules of this organization.
然后，他又贴出了这个组织的规则。
The kids in Love in Action's teen program went home to their parents every night.
“爱在行动”青少年项目中的孩子们每晚都会回到父母身边。
But they had to adhere to the rules no matter where they were.
但无论身在何处，他们都必须遵守规则。
There was no hugging or physical contact allowed, though brief handshakes or an affirmative hand on a shoulder were OK.
不允许拥抱或身体接触，但短暂的握手或肯定的手放在肩膀上是可以的。
Any, quote, "temptations, fantasies, or dreams" were supposed to be confessed to a staff member.
任何“诱惑、幻想或梦想”都应该向工作人员坦白。
Men were supposed to dress like men, and women like women.
男人应该穿得像男人，女人穿得像女人。
And for some reason, no one was allowed to wear anything by Abercrombie & Fitch or Calvin Klein.
由于某种原因，任何人都不被允许穿着 Abercrombie & Fitch 或 Calvin Klein 的任何衣服。
The protests clearly had two intended targets-- Zach, who they were there to support, and John Smid, the guy they were shouting at through their bull horns.
抗议活动显然有两个预定目标——他们在那里支持扎克，以及他们通过牛角大声喊叫的约翰·斯密德。
Morgan was there for weeks, making every attempt to get through to John.
摩根在那里待了几个星期，尽一切努力与约翰取得联系。
We knew that John Smid was the head of the organization.
我们知道约翰·斯密德是该组织的负责人。
And essentially, he was our enemy in this situation.
从本质上讲，在这种情况下他是我们的敌人。
Why, John Smid?
为什么，约翰·斯密德？
Morgan He never came and addressed us.
摩根 他从来没有来对我们讲话。
There was one day, he was driving.
有一天，他开车。
And he stopped for one moment.
他停了下来。
And we made sure at that very moment we saw him, because it was kind of like this-- man, I don't know.
我们确保在那一刻我们看到了他，因为有点像这样——伙计，我不知道。
It's like seeing Sasquatch.
就像看到大脚野人一样。
You know, we never got to see him.
你知道，我们从来没有见过他。
And then, so when we would actually see him in person, it was like, OK, this is our moment.
然后，当我们真正见到他本人时，就好像，好吧，这是我们的时刻。
We gotta do something right, or we've got to prove something.
我们必须做正确的事情，或者我们必须证明一些事情。
The protests at Love in Action became a national news story.
爱行动的抗议活动成为全国新闻报道。
They got picked up by CNN, the New York Times , and Good Morning America .
美国有线电视新闻网 (CNN)、《纽约时报》和《早安美国》对他们进行了报道。
Eight weeks later when it was all over and Zach Stark had finished the program, Morgan wanted to interview John Smid for the documentary he'd started working on about the protests.
八周后，一切都结束了，扎克·斯塔克也完成了节目，摩根想采访约翰·斯密德，拍摄他开始制作的有关抗议活动的纪录片。
John says he didn't want anything to do with Morgan.
约翰说他不想和摩根有任何关系。
Of course, I understood he had this organization called Queer Action Coalition.
当然，我知道他有一个名为酷儿行动联盟的组织。
And it was just this horribly negative thing that I just don't want anything to do with.
这就是一件可怕的负面事情，我不想与之有任何关系。
and he called and wanted to meet with me.
他打电话来想和我见面。
And I said, OK, how do I set up the safeguards?
我说，好吧，我该如何设置保障措施？
Because you've got to be careful when these gay activists come around.
因为当这些同性恋活动分子出现时你必须小心。
You know, they're going to twist your words.
你知道，他们会曲解你的话。
And somehow, they've got an alternative agenda.
不知何故，他们有一个替代议程。
And they just want to use your words negatively.
他们只是想用你的话来表达负面情绪。
So I asked one of my staff members to come in and meet with me with him because I didn't want to be him alone because I thought, certainly I need some kind of accountability here.
因此，我邀请我的一名员工进来与我会面，因为我不想让他独自一人，因为我想，我当然需要某种责任。
And so I walk into his office.
于是我走进了他的办公室。
The meeting is at Love in Action headquarters.
会议在爱行动总部举行。
I walk in.
我走进去。
And he sits down behind this big desk.
他坐在这张大桌子后面。
And one of his staff members sits down beside him.
他的一名工作人员坐在他旁边。
And I sit across from this big table.
我坐在这张大桌子对面。
And the night before, I had really thought about things I would say, and having this opportunity, and possibly I would debate him.
前一天晚上，我真的考虑过我要说的话，并有这个机会，也许我会和他辩论。
You know, I wanted to have an eloquent argument.
你知道，我想进行一场雄辩的辩论。
I had like a six page document that I had prepared and studied, hoping that those were points that I would hit.
我有一份六页的文件，我已经准备好并研究过，希望这些是我能击中的要点。
But I sit across the table from him.
但我坐在他对面。
And he's like, well?
他就像，嗯？
And I'm like, yeah?
我想，是吗？
And then, literally like 10 seconds of silence.
然后，就相当于沉默了 10 秒。
I'm sitting there.
我坐在那里。
No one is saying anything.
没有人说什么。
And I'm just like, oh my god.
我就像，天哪。
And the last thing that was crossing my mind at that moment was to debate or start arguing with him.
那一刻我最不想做的就是与他辩论或开始争论。
And so I just started telling him my story.
所以我开始告诉他我的故事。
I just started telling him about my childhood, when I came out, all the things that I faced, the pain that I felt of not feeling necessarily accepted by peers or family, and about that process of going through all of that, but then being in a relationship, and being out, and feeling loved, and feeling a part of a community here in Memphis, and how much healthier I felt.
我刚开始告诉他我的童年，当我出柜时，我所面临的所有事情，我感到不一定被同龄人或家人接受的痛苦，以及经历这一切的过程，但后来进入一段关系，出柜，感受到被爱，感受到自己是孟菲斯社区的一部分，以及我感觉多么健康。
And then, went on to explain, that's why I protested your organization all of these past few weeks.
然后，继续解释，这就是为什么我在过去几周一直抗议你们的组织。
And I thought, wait a minute.
我想，等一下。
This is not what I expected.
这不是我所期望的。
This guy seems to be vulnerable, and honest, and humble.
这个人看起来很脆弱，诚实，谦虚。
And it's like, this isn't-- I don't hate this guy.
就像，这不是——我不恨这个家伙。
How could I hate him?
我怎么能恨他呢？
He just came in my office, and treated me with respect, and was honest himself.
他刚刚来到我的办公室，对我很尊重，而且他自己也很诚实。
And he seemed open, and I didn't know what to do with it.
他看起来很开放，我不知道该怎么办。
They talked for half an hour.
他们聊了半个小时。
And then, Morgan asked John if he'd agree to an interview.
然后，摩根问约翰是否同意接受采访。
John turned him down.
约翰拒绝了他。
For a year after that meeting, there was a kind of ceasefire.
那次会议后的一年里，双方达成了某种程度的停火。
John and Morgan didn't talk to each other at all.
约翰和摩根根本没有说话。
Then, Morgan and some of the other protesters attended an open meeting at Love in Action.
然后，摩根和其他一些抗议者参加了“爱在行动”的公开会议。
Morgan says they were just trying to keep an eye on them, see what Love in Action were up to.
摩根说，他们只是想密切关注他们，看看《爱在行动》在做什么。
And it was funny because the thing that John talked about at that open meeting was this idea of how we respond to our parents, or how we kind of communicate with them, and deal with the wounds that might be there.
这很有趣，因为约翰在那次公开会议上谈到的是我们如何回应父母，或者我们如何与他们沟通，以及处理可能存在的伤口。
It was interesting because at the time, I wasn't that close with my father.
这很有趣，因为当时我和父亲的关系并不亲密。
And surprisingly, I'm sitting there listening to him say this stuff, and something just clicks in my head that I had been kind of attempting to relate to my father for a long time on my terms only, and not looking at him as a person with the full emotions and issues that he maybe is dealing with.
令人惊讶的是，我坐在那里听他说这些话，我的脑海里突然闪现出我长期以来一直试图按照自己的方式与父亲建立联系，而不是将他视为一个充满情感和问题的人，而他可能正在处理这些问题。
And so that was the building blocks towards me becoming closer with my father and mending that relationship.
这就是我与父亲变得更加亲密并修复这种关系的基石。
And so that's something that I was extremely grateful for.
所以这是我非常感激的事情。
And so I followed up that meeting in sending John an email, and was like, hey, look, I still totally disagree with everything you're doing.
所以我在这次会议之后给约翰发了一封电子邮件，然后说，嘿，看，我仍然完全不同意你所做的一切。
However, I just want to let you know that it's pretty cool that I learned something from your meeting.
然而，我只是想让你知道，我从你的会议中学到了一些东西，这真是太酷了。
So just wanted to say thanks, and I appreciate that part of it, even though the rest of it needs to go.
所以我只想说声谢谢，我很欣赏这部分内容，尽管其余部分需要删除。
And so I'm thinking, OK, this doesn't match again.
所以我想，好吧，这又不匹配了。
My favorite enemy protester is actually complementing me.
我最喜欢的敌人抗议者实际上是在补充我。
And he's actually saying that I've had a positive impact.
他实际上是在说我产生了积极的影响。
And that kind of blew me away.
这让我大吃一惊。
And so I emailed him back.
所以我给他回了邮件。
And I said, Morgan, you know, I would really like to talk with you personally.
我说，摩根，你知道，我真的很想和你单独谈谈。
We should go out and have coffee if you'd like to do that because I've got some things I want to share with you.
如果你愿意的话我们应该出去喝咖啡，因为我有一些东西想与你分享。
Morgan and John agreed to meet at a Starbucks.
摩根和约翰同意在星巴克见面。
Morgan says the coffee lasted three hours.
摩根说咖啡持续了三个小时。
In these three hours, what are you guys talking about?
这三个小时，你们都在聊什么？
I mean, literally we're talking about what's been going on.
我的意思是，从字面上看，我们正在谈论正在发生的事情。
He's asking me questions about, oh, so you're a filmmaker?
他问我的问题是，哦，那么你是一名电影制片人？
I looked you up on the internet a little bit.
我在网上查了一下你的情况。
You know, that kind of stuff.
你知道，那种东西。
And so I'm talking about my films.
所以我正在谈论我的电影。
Basically, we talk about anything but the issues, which is fascinating.
基本上，我们除了问题之外什么都谈，这很有趣。
I mean, we're literally talking about my job at this coffee shop.
我的意思是，我们实际上是在谈论我在这家咖啡店的工作。
Yeah, I was going to say it's almost like an awkward first date.
是的，我想说这几乎就像一次尴尬的第一次约会。
[LAUGHS] That's awkward.
[笑]这很尴尬。
Jonathan And not that there's something romantic going on.
乔纳森：并不是说有什么浪漫的事情发生。
But are you concerned at any point to that he actually has a crush on you?
但你是否担心他实际上迷恋你？
I was never concerned about him having a crush on me.
我从来不担心他会迷恋我。
I can't say a lot of my friends or my significant other wasn't concerned about that.
我不能说我的很多朋友或我的另一半不关心这一点。
I mean, certainly that was a joke by a lot of people.
我的意思是，这当然是很多人的笑话。
Like, oh, he's just trying to hook up with you.
就像，哦，他只是想和你勾搭上。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
I had a couple of friends ask me, are you having an affair with Morgan?
有几个朋友问我，你和摩根有染吗？
People were concerned about us meeting.
人们很担心我们的会面。
You know, you shouldn't meet with Morgan alone because you could be tempted.
你知道，你不应该单独与摩根会面，因为你可能会受到诱惑。
I don't meet with single women or with married women by myself, so you shouldn't meet with a gay man by yourself.
我不会单独会见单身女性或已婚女性，所以你也不应该单独会见男同性恋者。
You know, is that going to be a problem for you?
你知道吗，这对你来说会是个问题吗？
And I'm thinking, no. Sorry, Morgan, I have not had any romantic inclinations towards Morgan.
我想，不。对不起，摩根，我对摩根没有任何浪漫的倾向。
[LAUGHTER]
[笑声]
The Fox-Smid Summits continued.
福克斯-史密德峰会继续进行。
But the Refuge program for teens didn't.
但青少年避难计划却没有。
John shut it down.
约翰把它关掉了。
And over coffee, he told Morgan that Refuge was a bad idea.
喝咖啡时，他告诉摩根，避难所不是一个好主意。
Morgan says it was the first time he'd heard John admit that he had done anything wrong at Love in Action.
摩根说，这是他第一次听到约翰承认他在“爱在行动”中做错了什么。
It wasn't exactly a change of heart, though.
但这并不完全是心意的改变。
John still believed he could provide ex-gay services to teens.
约翰仍然相信他可以为青少年提供前同性恋服务。
Refuge, he thought, just turned out to be the wrong way to do it.
他想，事实证明，避难是错误的做法。
But as time went on, Morgan felt that something significant was starting to shift in John.
但随着时间的推移，摩根觉得约翰身上开始发生一些重要的变化。
He would ask questions to me.
他会问我问题。
I mean, he was being more willing to hear feedback, and would specifically ask, well, what did you think about this?
我的意思是，他更愿意听到反馈，并且会特别问，嗯，你对此有何看法？
Or what was it about this?
或者说这件事到底是怎么回事？
Or he would sort of--
或者他会有点——
Like using you as a focus group to see how Love in Action was working?
喜欢以您为焦点小组来了解“爱在行动”是如何发挥作用的吗？
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
I mean, I think he even joked at some point about-- he had said something on the news about, "Well, you know, it's just like having to eat your peas.
我的意思是，我认为他甚至在某个时候开玩笑说——他在新闻中说过一些话，“嗯，你知道，这就像不得不吃豌豆一样。
Sometimes, you have to do things you don't want to do," in response to these kids needing to go into Refuge.
有时，你必须做你不想做的事情，”以回应这些需要进入避难所的孩子。
And I was like, John, are you kidding me?
我当时想，约翰，你在开玩笑吗？
Like, having to eat your peas?
比如，必须吃豌豆吗？
And he laughed and was like, what?
他笑了，然后说，什么？
That didn't work?
那不起作用？
I mean, tell me, seriously, if that didn't work.
我的意思是，认真地告诉我，如果这不起作用。
I'm like, [SCOFFS].
我想，[嘲笑]。
But it's just like, are you serious?
但这就像，你是认真的吗？
So definitely, things became-- though we weren't debating the issues, it became certainly more comfortable for me.
所以毫无疑问，事情变得——尽管我们没有争论这些问题，但对我来说肯定变得更舒服了。
I felt more comfortable to straight up say, like, come on, are you serious about this?
我感觉更舒服的是直接说，来吧，你认真对待这件事吗？
Can you actually believe this?
你真的能相信这一点吗？
And he was listening.
他在听。
What happened between John and Morgan is the thing that almost never happens between people on opposite sides of a political issue.
约翰和摩根之间发生的事情在政治问题的对立双方之间几乎从未发生过。
They sat down, and talked, and really listened to each other.
他们坐下来交谈，认真倾听对方的声音。
Essentially, Morgan did a very Christian thing.
本质上，摩根做了一件非常基督教的事情。
At that first meeting, he turned the other cheek.
第一次见面时，他把另一边脸转过去了。
John saw that, and did the same.
约翰看到了这一点，也做了同样的事。
And it had an effect.
它产生了效果。
John says that Morgan was the first gay person he met who wasn't in conflict over his sexuality.
约翰说摩根是他遇到的第一个对自己的性取向没有冲突的同性恋者。
Morgan seemed normal and healthy.
摩根看上去正常又健康。
And it surprised John.
这让约翰感到惊讶。
In March, 2008, John quietly resigned from Love in Action.
2008年3月，约翰悄悄从“爱在行动”中辞职。
It would be really satisfying if I could tell you that all that listening, all the sitting down over coffee with Morgan snapped John out of the ex-gay stupor he'd been in for more than two decades.
如果我能告诉你，所有的倾听、所有与摩根一起坐下来喝咖啡的经历，都让约翰从他二十多年来陷入的前同性恋昏迷状态中清醒过来，那将是非常令人满意的。
But that's not true.
但事实并非如此。
John told me when he left Love in Action, he hadn't actually changed his belief at all.
约翰告诉我，当他离开“爱在行动”时，他实际上根本没有改变他的信仰。
He was still ex-gay, still believed that being gay was a sin.
他仍然是前同性恋者，仍然相信同性恋是一种罪过。
Then, last year, John posted this stunning admission on the website of a new ministry he'd started.
然后，去年，约翰在他开始的一个新事工的网站上发布了这一令人震惊的承认。
He said that he'd seen dramatic changes happen in people's lives when they walk through the transformation process with Jesus.
他说，当人们与耶稣一起经历转变的过程时，他看到他们的生活发生了巨大的变化。
But he wrote, quote, "The transformation for the vast majority of homosexuals will not include a change of sexual orientation.
但他写道，“绝大多数同性恋者的转变不会包括性取向的改变。
Actually, I've never met a man who experienced a change from homosexual to heterosexual." That statement coming from John made news.
事实上，我从来没有见过一个男人经历过从同性恋到异性恋的转变。”约翰的这句话成了新闻。
Here's John with Chris Matthews on Hardball last fall.
这是去年秋天约翰和克里斯·马修斯在 Hardball 上的照片。
John, I guess the question a lot of people, gay and straight, will ask you is what brought you to go public with this pretty important observation since you've been experienced in this world that no one's ever gone through a successful, if you will, or conversion of any kind from gay to straight?
约翰，我想很多人，无论是同性恋还是异性恋，都会问你的问题是，是什么促使你公开这一非常重要的观察结果，因为你在这个世界上经历过，没有人经历过成功的（如果你愿意的话）或任何形式的从同性恋到异性恋的转变？
I think really one of the most significant things, Chris, is that within the gay community, there is--
克里斯，我认为最重要的事情之一是，在同性恋群体中，有——
I want to make sure this is clear.
我想确保这一点很清楚。
John now says God embraces homosexuality, that God loves gays and lesbians, and He sees nothing wrong with their actions.
约翰现在说上帝拥抱同性恋，上帝爱男同性恋者和女同性恋者，他认为他们的行为没有任何问题。
He now fully supports faithful, same-sex commitments.
他现在完全支持忠诚的同性承诺。
And he started a ministry that reaches out to gay people.
他开始了一个接触同性恋者的事工。
But the new John Smid isn't exactly a crusader for the gay movement.
但新任约翰·斯密德并不完全是同性恋运动的斗士。
He's still learning to navigate who he is.
他仍在学习如何认识自己。
And whatever transformation he's going through, it's still incomplete.
无论他正在经历什么转变，它仍然是不完整的。
He's working it out in public.
他正在公开地解决这个问题。
And it's clumsy.
而且很笨拙。
There've been times on his blog when he's used the word "perversion" while talking about homosexuality.
他的博客上曾多次在谈论同性恋时使用“变态”一词。
He talks about promiscuity like it's something that gay men just can't avoid without help from God.
他谈论滥交，就像同性恋者在没有上帝帮助的情况下无法避免的事情一样。
The things he says now can still be so hurtful and confusing that a former client told me he wishes John would just lay low for a few years until he figures out what he wants to say.
他现在说的话仍然是那么伤人、那么令人困惑，以至于一位前客户告诉我，他希望约翰能低调几年，直到他弄清楚自己想说什么。
Morgan eventually got the interview he was looking for.
摩根最终得到了他想要的面试机会。
He and John sat down and talked on camera.
他和约翰坐下来在镜头前交谈。
And now, they're doing Q&As together, talking to audiences about the documentary Morgan made.
现在，他们一起进行问答，与观众谈论摩根制作的纪录片。
Recently, John made probably his biggest shift.
最近，约翰可能做出了他最大的转变。
He started calling himself gay.
他开始称自己是同性恋。
Not ex-gay, not ex-ex-gay, just gay.
不是前同性恋，不是前同性恋，只是同性恋。
John and his wife are still married.
约翰和他的妻子仍然处于婚姻状态。
It's obviously confusing for the two of them.
这显然让两个人都感到困惑。
But this is the uncomfortable place John Smid has lived in his whole life.
但这正是约翰·斯密德一生所居住的不舒服的地方。
When he was in his first marriage in his late teens, he struggled because he was gay.
当他十几岁的时候第一次结婚时，他因为自己是同性恋而陷入困境。
Then, he came out and he struggled with that, so he became ex-gay.
然后，他出柜了，他为此挣扎，所以他成为了前同性恋。
We'd all like to believe that, as we get older, we know ourselves better and things get easier.
我们都愿意相信，随着年龄的增长，我们会更了解自己，事情会变得更容易。
But it doesn't always work out that way.
但事情并不总是这样。
John says now, he's kind of back to where he was in his early 20s-- gay and out, just a lot older this time.
约翰说，现在他有点回到了 20 岁出头的状态——同性恋和出柜，只是这次老了很多。
He's still really conflicted about what that means.
他对于这意味着什么仍然很矛盾。
Jonathan Menjivar is one of the producers of our program.
乔纳森·门吉瓦尔 (Jonathan Menjivar) 是我们节目的制作人之一。
More information about the documentary that Morgan Jon Fox made is at loveinactionmovie.com.
有关摩根·乔恩·福克斯制作的纪录片的更多信息，请访问 loveinactionmovie.com。
[ACKNOWLEDGMENTS] Thanks to Steve Blass's co-author, Erik Sherman.
[致谢] 感谢 Steve Blass 的合著者 Erik Sherman。
Their book goes on sale May 1.
他们的书将于 5 月 1 日发售。
Thanks for help with our radio drama to Peter Clowning, Carrie Helmen, Chris Bannon, and WNYC.
感谢 Peter Clowning、Carrie Helmen、Chris Bannon 和 WNYC 为我们的广播剧提供的帮助。
Rick Wolff, who you heard in Act One, does a radio show about sports parenting on New York's WFAN.
你在第一幕中听到的里克·沃尔夫 (Rick Wolff) 在纽约的 WFAN 上做了一个关于体育育儿的广播节目。
He can be found on askcoachwolff.com.
您可以在 Askcoachwolff.com 上找到他。
Major League Baseball footage today was used with permission of Major League Baseball Properties, Inc.
今天使用美国职业棒球大联盟的镜头已获得美国职业棒球大联盟地产公司的许可。
Our website, where right now you can enter our contest to win a signed poster for our May 10 cinema event-- basically, we're going to be doing our show on stage with Mike Birbiglia, David Rakoff, Glenn Washington, and others and beaming it into movie theaters everywhere.
现在，您可以在我们的网站上参加我们的竞赛，赢取 5 月 10 日电影活动的签名海报——基本上，我们将与迈克·比尔比利亚、大卫·拉考夫、格伦·华盛顿等人一起在舞台上表演我们的节目，并将其传送到世界各地的电影院。
Find a theater near you and get tickets before they sell out.
找到您附近的剧院并在门票售完之前获取门票。
You can do all that at thisamericanlife.org.
您可以在 thisamericanlife.org 上完成所有这些操作。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
WBEZ management oversight for our program by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia, who has totally figured out what we're up to here at the end of the program when we quote him.
我们的老板 Torey Malatia 先生对我们的项目进行了 WBEZ 管理监督，当我们引用他的话时，他已经完全弄清楚了我们在项目结束时要做什么。
You've got to be careful when these gay activists come around, you know.
你知道，当这些同性恋活动分子出现时，你必须小心。
They're going to twist your words.
他们会曲解你的话。
And somehow, they've got an alternative agenda.
不知何故，他们有一个替代议程。
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life .
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。