46: Sissies - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #46 | April 22, 2005 46: Sissies Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 46 集 | 2005 年 4 月 22 日 46：娘娘腔 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Act One: Anti-Oedipus Different Voices From PRI, Public Radio International.
第一幕：反俄狄浦斯 来自 PRI、国际公共广播电台的不同声音。
From PRI, Public Radio International.
来自国际公共广播电台 PRI。
From PRI, Public Radio International.
来自国际公共广播电台 PRI。
Public Radio.
公共广播电台。
Public Radio International.
国际公共广播电台。
What could be more horrible than the moment when you realize that everybody in the world can see some aspect of you, something about you, that you never even knew that you were revealing, that you didn't want to reveal?
当你意识到世界上的每个人都可以看到你的某些方面，关于你的某些方面，而你甚至不知道你正在暴露，你不想暴露的时候，还有什么比这更可怕的呢？
So Mubarak was at a track meet-- this is back in high school-- he was at this track meet, and he was setting up those runners' blocks you use in track.
穆巴拉克参加了一次田径运动会——那是在高中的时候——他参加了这次田径运动会，他正在设置那些你在田径中使用的跑步者块。
And I was sort of pampering my blocks, moving the blocks back and forth ever so slightly, hair lengths, testing out how they felt and standing up and putting my hands on my hip and putting my finger on my cheek and looking at it as if I was in deep thought.
我有点宠爱我的积木，轻轻地前后移动积木，头发的长度，测试它们的感觉，然后站起来，把手放在臀部上，把手指放在脸颊上，看着它，好像我正在沉思。
And bending down and probably even dusting off the blocks.
弯下腰，甚至可能掸掉积木上的灰尘。
What I didn't know at the time was there was the whole group of track members from the opposing team who were standing, watching me, and laughing.
当时我不知道的是，对方队的所有田径队员都站在那里看着我，笑着。
They were like, this big sissy is what they're putting up for us to beat?
他们说，这个大娘娘腔就是他们要让我们打败的？
Remember, please, high school.
请记住，高中。
High school, where, in the hierarchy of put downs, the worst thing you could call a boy was "sissy." Mubarak won his match.
高中时，在贬低的等级中，你能说男孩最糟糕的就是“娘娘腔”。穆巴拉克赢得了比赛。
And the coach came up after I won, and he actually gave me this big hug.
我获胜后教练过来了，他给了我一个大大的拥抱。
And he was like, "That was great." And I was like, "Thanks." But my time wasn't anything particularly better than before.
他说：“那太棒了。”我说：“谢谢。”但我的日子并没有比以前好多少。
So I kind of had this puzzled look in his face.
所以我在他脸上露出了困惑的表情。
And he's like, "That was great the way you psyched those guys out by acting like a big sissy in front of your blocks and then showing them." And as soon as he said that, it hit me, what had happened.
他说，“你在你的街区前表现得像个大娘们，然后向他们展示，让那些家伙兴奋起来，这真是太棒了。”他一这么说，我就意识到发生了什么事。
And I was like-- I played along.
我就像——我一起玩。
"Yeah, hey, good thing I thought of that."
“是啊，嘿嘿，还好我想到了这一点。”
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life .
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today on our program, Sissies.
今天我们的节目，娘娘腔。
Weak ones, defiant ones, brave ones, and the ones who do not even know they are a sissy.
软弱的人、反抗的人、勇敢的人、甚至不知道自己是娘娘腔的人。
Act One, Anti-Oedipus.
第一幕，反俄狄浦斯。
Act Three, The Pansy Kings Sing Songs of Love.
第三幕，三色堇国王唱情歌。
Act Four, syndicated columnist Dan Savage answers the question, who loves a sissy?
第四幕，联合专栏作家丹·萨维奇回答了这个问题：谁喜欢娘娘腔？
He does.
他做到了。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One.
第一幕。
Well, the tragedy of the story of Oedipus, if you remember this from school, is that a son kills his father and marries his mother and then, of course, rips out his eyes when he realizes what it is that he's done.
好吧，俄狄浦斯故事的悲剧，如果你在学校记得的话，就是一个儿子杀了他的父亲，娶了他的母亲，然后，当然，当他意识到自己做了什么时，他就挖出了他的眼睛。
And the thing about this story is that he does all these things unwittingly.
这个故事的重点是他在不知不觉中做了所有这些事情。
He doesn't know that that's what he's doing with his mother and father when he does it.
当他这样做时，他不知道这就是他正在和他的父母做的事情。
Well, the first story on today's program is also about a family that ends up getting ripped apart.
嗯，今天节目的第一个故事也是关于一个最终支离破碎的家庭。
It's also about a family where the son ends up with the mother, the father gone.
这也是关于一个家庭的故事，儿子最终和母亲在一起，父亲却去世了。
And it's also a story where the tragedy of it is that it all happens without any of them really wanting it to happen this way.
这也是一个故事，其中的悲剧在于，这一切都发生了，而他们中没有人真正希望它以这种方式发生。
It's the ending they all wanted to avoid.
这是他们都想避免的结局。
Nancy Updike prepared this story of an American family and of what it means to be a man.
南希·厄普代克准备了这个关于一个美国家庭以及作为一个男人意味着什么的故事。
This story is like one those Russian dolls where there's always a smaller one inside.
这个故事就像那些俄罗斯娃娃，里面总是有一个较小的娃娃。
The smallest doll, the core of the drama, is the fact that Mubarak, a childhood sissy, grew up to be a different kind of sissy than his father.
最小的娃娃，戏剧的核心，是童年娘娘腔穆巴拉克长大后成为与父亲不同的娘娘腔。
His father is nerdy and bookish.
他的父亲是个书呆子，书生气十足。
Mubarak's gay.
穆巴拉克是同性恋。
Everything around that core gets bigger and bigger until finally you can't believe the biggest and the smallest have anything to do with each other, the one is so bloated and the other so tiny.
围绕该核心的一切都变得越来越大，直到最后你无法相信最大的和最小的彼此有任何关系，一个如此臃肿，另一个如此微小。
At the beginning of this story, Mubarak's parents are married and in love, and both prepared to live far from everything they know to be with each other.
在故事的开头，穆巴拉克的父母结婚并相爱，两人都准备与对方生活在远离一切的地方。
At the end of the story, they may still be in love, but they're divorced and an ocean apart and not speaking.
在故事的结尾，他们可能仍然相爱，但他们离婚了，远隔重洋，不再说话。
And Mubarak is caring for his mother the way a husband might.
穆巴拉克像丈夫一样照顾他的母亲。
OK, Margie Ruth.
好的，玛吉·露丝。
Margie Now, don't get it too hot.
玛吉 现在，别太热了。
Mubarak starts Margie's shower, and he's holding on to her so she won't fall.
穆巴拉克开始给玛吉洗澡，他扶着她，以免她摔倒。
And she's holding on to him too.
而她也紧紧抓住他。
She's about five feet tall, naked, and fragile looking, and very pale.
她大约五英尺高，赤身露体，看上去很脆弱，脸色也很苍白。
He's dressed in jeans and a shirt that he knows are about to get really wet.
他穿着牛仔裤和衬衫，他知道这会被淋湿。
All right, lift your breasts.
好吧，抬起你的胸部。
Lift one at a time so I can wash under it.
一次抬起一个，这样我就可以在它下面洗澡。
Hey, Margie, was it hard the first time Mubarak gave you a shower?
嘿，玛吉，穆巴拉克第一次给你洗澡的时候很难吗？
I got embarrassed.
我很尴尬。
Nancy Updike How did you get over being embarrassed?
南希·厄普代克：你是如何克服尴尬的？
I don't know.
我不知道。
Just because it happens over and and over again.
只是因为它一次又一次地发生。
Mubarak is my son, you know?
穆巴拉克是我的儿子，你知道吗？
He gets a washcloth in under her breasts, and she stands serenely, blinking in the water.
他把一块毛巾放在她的乳房下面，她平静地站在水里，眨着眼睛。
It's a moment so intimate it's hard to watch.
这是一个如此亲密的时刻，很难观看。
But then, as he gets her out of the shower and is drying her off, there's another moment that makes the intimacy of everything before it seem completely beside the point and prettied up in comparison.
但随后，当他把她从淋浴间抱出来并为她擦干时，又有一个时刻让之前的一切亲密感变得完全无关紧要，相比之下显得更漂亮了。
He takes a baby wipe and wipes her butt for her.
他拿起婴儿湿巾，帮她擦屁股。
Nobody's going to give me a shot today, are they?
今天没有人愿意给我机会，是吗？
No, we have to take some blood, though.
不，不过我们必须抽点血。
We have to go to the lab, and they're going to take some blood.
我们必须去实验室，他们要抽一些血。
Well, that's a shot.
嗯，这是一个镜头。
Mubarak It's not a shot.
穆巴拉克 这不是一枪。
They're drawing blood.
他们正在抽血。
They put-- Mubarak They stick you, but they're not giving you a shot.
他们把——穆巴拉克 他们粘住你，但他们不给你机会。
They're taking blood.
他们正在抽血。
There's a difference.
有区别。
You ever tried it?
你尝试过吗？
Nancy Updike Margie's only 66, but in the last couple of years, she's had a heart attack and two small strokes, which paralyzed her right arm and affected her memory.
南希·厄普代克·玛吉 (Nancy Updike Margie) 年仅 66 岁，但在过去的几年里，她心脏病发作，还经历过两次小中风，导致她的右臂瘫痪并影响了她的记忆力。
It cuts in and out like faulty wiring.
它就像错误的接线一样断断续续。
Sometimes she's talkative and remembers a lot.
有时她很健谈，记得很多。
Sometimes she's not and she doesn't.
有时她不是，她也没有。
Hey, you know what?
嘿，你知道吗？
Lift your breast for me again so that we can make sure.
再次为我抬起你的乳房，以便我们确定。
You don't have a rash under there anymore, do you?
你下面已经没有皮疹了吧？
I don't think so.
我不这么认为。
Mubarak Because we've got to make sure it stays dry so it doesn't get a rash under there.
穆巴拉克：因为我们必须确保它保持干燥，这样下面才不会出现皮疹。
Mubarak, is this closer than you ever thought you'd get to an adult woman's body?
穆巴拉克，这比你想象的更接近成年女性的身体吗？
[LAUGHS] You could say that.
[笑]你可以这么说。
Nancy Updike But this is the end of the story.
南希·厄普代克但这就是故事的结局。
This is today.
这是今天。
Let's go back to the beginning.
让我们回到最初。
Mubarak's family didn't really notice that he was, as he tells it, a big sissy, because they were all oddballs.
穆巴拉克的家人并没有真正注意到他，正如他所说，是一个大娘们，因为他们都是怪人。
No matter where they were living, at least one of them was always not quite fitting in.
无论他们住在哪里，至少有一个人总是不太适应。
Margie's from Georgia and lived most of her married life either up north or in the Middle East.
玛吉来自佐治亚州，她的婚姻生活大部分时间都在北方或中东度过。
Mubarak's father, Sabir, is Palestinian, born in Jordan.
穆巴拉克的父亲萨比尔是巴勒斯坦人，出生于约旦。
But for most of the marriage, they all lived in a small town in Pennsylvania where he was a professor of civil engineering.
但在婚姻的大部分时间里，他们都住在宾夕法尼亚州的一个小镇，他是那里的土木工程学教授。
Now if Mubarak was a sissy in white, working-class, Catholic Hershey, PA, Sabir was too.
现在，如果说穆巴拉克是一个穿着白人、工人阶级、宾夕法尼亚州好时天主教徒的娘娘腔，那么萨比尔也是。
We got a week off of school every year because so many people, so many boys, went deer hunting.
我们每年都会休学一周，因为有很多人、很多男孩去猎鹿。
And of course, I didn't go hunting, and I didn't play football.
当然，我没有去打猎，也没有踢足球。
And I didn't do all of those things that the boys in the neighborhood were supposed to do, especially hunting.
我没有做所有邻居男孩应该做的事情，尤其是打猎。
Hunting was like a yardstick of when you reached manhood.
狩猎就像是衡量你是否成年的一个标准。
Sabir, meanwhile, to Mubarak's shame and horror, had to call on neighborhood dads to do simple mechanical tasks like unclogging a drain.
与此同时，令穆巴拉克羞愧和恐惧的是，萨比尔不得不请邻居的爸爸们做一些简单的机械任务，比如疏通下水道。
And Margie was the one who hung their wedding pictures because Sabir claimed he didn't know how to hammer a nail.
玛吉是挂他们结婚照的人，因为萨比尔声称他不知道如何钉钉子。
No, Sabir didn't do any of that stuff.
不，萨比尔没有做任何那样的事情。
Sabir was always very formal.
萨比尔总是非常正式。
He always had a sport jacket.
他总是有一件运动夹克。
I remember cutting grass was a big deal out there, like lawn care, how green and how even and how perfect was your yard.
我记得割草是一件大事，就像草坪护理一样，你的院子有多绿、有多均匀、有多完美。
And I remember Sabir was in the yard cutting the grass.
我记得萨比尔正在院子里割草。
And he was cutting the grass, and he had a sport coat and a tie on, which is funny if you think about it.
他正在割草，他穿着一件运动外套，打着领带，如果你仔细想想，这很有趣。
Why would he do it?
他为什么要这么做？
Mubarak I think that came from the Middle East idea that if you are educated, that there's a certain position that you have in society and that you should always look and act a certain way.
穆巴拉克 我认为这来自中东的观念，即如果你受过教育，你在社会中就有一定的地位，你应该始终以某种方式看待和行事。
You can see why, in this atmosphere, Sabir at one point panicked and made Margie sign Mubarak up for Little League.
你可以明白为什么在这种气氛下，萨比尔一度惊慌失措，让玛吉签下穆巴拉克参加少年棒球联盟。
To toughen him up, he told her.
为了让他坚强起来，他告诉她。
But mostly, Margie says, Sabir worshipped Mubarak.
但玛吉说，萨比尔最崇拜的是穆巴拉克。
He adored him.
他很崇拜他。
Mubarak this and Mubarak that and Mubarak the other.
穆巴拉克这个，穆巴拉克那个，穆巴拉克另一个。
Everything he talked about was Mubarak.
他谈论的一切都是穆巴拉克。
After he found out Mubarak was gay, he hardly ever said-- wouldn't hardly even mention his name.
在他发现穆巴拉克是同性恋之后，他几乎没有说过——甚至几乎没有提到他的名字。
Margie was the one who made the phone call to Mubarak after finding a bunch of gay adult cards in his room.
玛吉在穆巴拉克的房间里发现一堆同性恋成人卡片后，给穆巴拉克打电话。
He was 20 years old and staying with friends in Germany at the time, on his way to a semester in England.
他当时 20 岁，当时和朋友住在德国，准备去英国上学。
And it was the middle of the night.
那是半夜。
I don't remember if we were exactly in bed.
我不记得我们是否真的在床上。
And the mother came down and said in German to my friend, there's a phone call from America, and it's an emergency for your American friend.
母亲下来用德语对我的朋友说，有一个从美国打来的电话，你的美国朋友有紧急情况。
So I was all nervous, and I went upstairs.
所以我很紧张，就上楼了。
And it was Margie, and she was crying.
是玛吉，她在哭。
She was hysterical.
她歇斯底里。
I said, "Margie, what's wrong?" And she said, "You have to come home now."
我说：“玛吉，怎么了？”她说：“你现在必须回家了。”
And I said, "Why?
我说：“为什么？
What's wrong?" And she just kept repeating, "You have to come home now." And I kept trying to get out of her what was wrong.
怎么了？”她只是不断重复：“你现在必须回家了。”我一直试图从她口中找出问题所在。
So she finally said, "We found a good hospital in Tennessee that can cure you." And then I knew what was wrong.
于是她最后说道：“我们在田纳西州找到了一家可以治愈你的好医院。”然后我就知道出了什么问题。
And of course I told her that I wasn't coming home until the end of the semester, and I would see her in January.
当然，我告诉她我要到学期结束才能回家，我会在一月份见到她。
And I think I hung up right away.
我想我马上就挂了电话。
This was the beginning of their world starting to shift and become something else.
这是他们的世界开始转变并变成其他东西的开始。
Sabir blamed Margie for Mubarak being gay.
萨比尔将穆巴拉克的同性恋身份归咎于玛吉。
Sabir, who never raised his voice before, would pound the table and say Mubarak was gay because he's a mama's boy.
以前从未提高过声音的萨比尔会拍着桌子说穆巴拉克是同性恋，因为他是妈妈的儿子。
I didn't think I'd married the same person at those times.
我不认为我当时嫁给了同一个人。
He used to be jolly and gay and cheerful and tell jokes.
他曾经是个快乐、快乐、开朗、爱讲笑话的人。
I didn't know him anymore.
我已经不认识他了。
I guess he didn't know me either.
我猜他也不认识我。
He was in such bad shape that he had taken off time from the university.
他的身体状况非常糟糕，以至于他从大学请了假。
I think he took a whole semester off from teaching at the university.
我想他在大学里休学了整整一个学期。
He was so bad at one point, he would sit and stare into space and not respond to conversations and questions.
他有一次表现得很糟糕，他会坐着盯着太空，不回应谈话和问题。
And they had home health care-- an IV for him at home because he wouldn't eat.
他们还提供家庭医疗保健——因为他不肯吃饭，所以在家里为他进行静脉注射。
When Mubarak came home around Christmas, they all sat down at the kitchen table for a family meeting.
当穆巴拉克圣诞节前后回家时，他们都坐在厨房的桌子旁参加家庭会议。
Margie didn't say hardly anything the whole time.
玛吉自始至终几乎什么也没说。
And neither did I, actually.
事实上我也没有。
Sabir did most of the talking.
萨比尔说了大部分话。
Basically, he started with, you're our son and we love you, but this is wrong, and this is an illness.
基本上，他一开始就说，你是我们的儿子，我们爱你，但这是错误的，这是一种疾病。
I've looked into it, and there are doctors who say that if you just try, if you get help, that you can change.
我对此进行了调查，有些医生说，如果你尝试，如果你得到帮助，你就可以改变。
Did he say the word "homosexual"?
他有说过“同性恋”这个词吗？
Oh, god, no. He would never say that.
哦，上帝，不。他永远不会这么说。
He would say, "your condition" or "your problem" or "your situation." He would never say the word "gay" or "homosexual" ever, ever, ever.
他会说“你的情况”或“你的问题”或“你的情况”。他永远、永远、永远都不会说“同性恋”或“同性恋”这个词。
Even in the years after that, he never, ever said that word.
即使在那之后的几年里，他也从未说过这个词。
The biggest problem with Mubarak being gay was that he would never have children.
穆巴拉克作为同性恋的最大问题是他永远不会有孩子。
He would never have a son to carry on the family name as Sabir had done and as Sabir's father had done.
他永远不会像萨比尔和萨比尔的父亲那样有一个儿子来继承家族的姓氏。
This was Mubarak's obligation.
这是穆巴拉克的义务。
After a long argument, the last thing Sabir said to Mubarak was this.
经过长时间的争论，萨比尔对穆巴拉克说的最后一句话是：
I remember he looked at me and he said, "I will sell all the land in Palestine to raise the money to send you to a doctor if you ever decide that you would go." Being Palestinian and understanding how important land is, I mean, land is identity, it's a future, it's the past, it's everything.
我记得他看着我说：“如果你决定去的话，我会卖掉巴勒斯坦的所有土地来筹集资金送你去看医生。”作为巴勒斯坦人，了解土地的重要性，我的意思是，土地是身份，是未来，是过去，是一切。
And for Sabir to say that he would sell all of his land showed that this was really the top priority in his whole life.
而萨比尔说出要卖掉自己所有的土地，就说明这确实是他一生中的头等大事。
For two years, nothing changed.
两年了，一切都没有改变。
Mubarak stayed in school and kept being gay.
穆巴拉克留在学校并一直是同性恋。
Sabir stayed depressed and wrote Mubarak long letters saying he loved Mubarak but Mubarak was sick and he owed it to Sabir to get help.
萨比尔一直郁闷不已，给穆巴拉克写了长信，说他爱穆巴拉克，但穆巴拉克病了，他欠萨比尔的帮助。
Margie quietly began flooding Mubarak's college mailbox with condoms.
玛吉开始悄悄地向穆巴拉克大学的邮箱里塞满避孕套。
Then Margie and Sabir moved back to the Middle East as they'd always planned to do when Sabir retired.
然后玛吉和萨比尔搬回中东，正如萨比尔退休时他们一直计划的那样。
He was 65.
他 65 岁了。
She was 59.
她59岁了。
Six months later, everything shifted again.
六个月后，一切又发生了变化。
The family mutated again, becoming more like what it would soon be and less like it had been before.
这个家庭再次发生变异，变得更像现在的样子，而不是以前的样子。
It started with another phone call to Mubarak.
事情始于给穆巴拉克的另一通电话。
Well, the way I first found out about it was I got a telephone call one afternoon from Margie.
嗯，我第一次知道这件事是在一天下午我接到玛吉打来的电话。
She said, "Honey, do you think I could come live with you?" And I didn't know what she was talking about.
她说：“亲爱的，你觉得我可以和你一起住吗？”而且我不知道她在说什么。
I said, "Margie, what are you talking about?" She said, "Do you think I could come live with you?" And then she told me that she and Sabir were getting divorced because he was going to marry another woman and have another son.
我说：“玛吉，你在说什么？”她说：“你觉得我可以和你一起住吗？”然后她告诉我她和萨比尔要离婚，因为他要娶另一个女人并生另一个儿子。
In fact, divorce wasn't even what Sabir wanted.
事实上，离婚根本不是萨比尔想要的。
At first, he asked Margie if she would be his partner in what he called--
起初，他问玛吉是否愿意成为他所谓的搭档——
Joint venture.
合资企业。
I want you to help me find a young lady you think you can get along with.
我想让你帮我找一位你认为可以相处的年轻女士。
I said, "What?"
我说：“什么？”
And he said, "I want to marry another woman and have a baby."
他说：“我想和另一个女人结婚并生孩子。”
I said, "OK, Sabir, you better find one you think you can get along with because I'm not going to be here."
我说：“好吧，萨比尔，你最好找一个你认为可以相处的人，因为我不会在这里。”
And that was plan A, and the plan B was having another wife at a different apartment.
这就是 A 计划，B 计划是在另一套公寓里再娶一个妻子。
And then plan C was him getting married in the West Bank, just going down there a couple weeks a year, and then basically living with Margie in Jordan.
然后C计划是他在约旦河西岸结婚，每年只去那里几周，然后基本上和玛吉一起住在约旦。
And her response to that was always my favorite.
她对此的回应一直是我最喜欢的。
That's when she asked him-- she said, "OK, that's fine as long as I can have a--
就在那时她问他——她说，“好吧，没关系，只要我能——
Boyfriend.
男朋友。
He said, "Why?" And I said, "So when you ask me what I've been doing, I'll tell you the same thing you've been doing while you were over there." He didn't appreciate that either.
他说：“为什么？”我说：“所以当你问我在做什么时，我会告诉你你在那里时所做的同样的事情。”他也不欣赏这一点。
And I remember Sabir wrote me a very, very long letter explaining what he was doing and why he was doing it and how he had been forced into doing this because for years he had been asking me to go get help, and I was just ignoring him.
我记得萨比尔给我写了一封非常非常长的信，解释他在做什么、为什么这样做以及他是如何被迫这样做的，因为多年来他一直要求我去寻求帮助，而我只是无视他。
And he felt that since I was not going to have a son to carry on the family name, that the responsibility of making sure that the family name survived suddenly became his again.
他觉得既然我不会生一个儿子来继承家族的姓氏，那么确保家族传承的责任突然又变成了他的责任。
And this was the only way he could see to do it.
这是他能想到的唯一方法。
And he was very heavy on the, "This is your fault.
他语气很沉重，“这是你的错。
You're doing this to Margie, not me."
你这样做是为了玛吉，而不是我。”
The other thing that was really strange was he spent pages saying, "Your mother is being very close-minded about all of this.
另一件真正奇怪的事情是他花了好几页的时间说：“你母亲对这一切都非常保守。
Try to help me convince her to stay here.
试着帮我说服她留在这里。
She doesn't have to leave.
她不必离开。
I don't want her to leave."
我不想让她离开。”
So Sabir divorced Margie, telling her every day until she left that he loved her and didn't want her to leave.
于是萨比尔与玛吉离婚了，每天都告诉她，直到她离开，他爱她，不想让她离开。
And she got on the plane and began the life she's pretty much living now.
她登上了飞机，开始了她现在的生活。
From that point on, instead of a husband, she would have a son.
从那时起，她不再有丈夫，而是有一个儿子。
And from the moment the plane touched down, he treated her the way you'd want your husband to treat you.
从飞机着陆的那一刻起，他就以你希望你丈夫对待你的方式对待她。
I'll never forget when I came back, getting off plane.
我永远不会忘记我下飞机回来的那一刻。
We got through customs and all that stuff.
我们通过了海关和所有这些事情。
I saw this great big bunch of flowers somebody was holding way up in the air.
我看到有人把一大束花举在空中。
Beautiful, beautiful bunch of flowers.
美丽，美丽的一束花。
And I said, somebody is certainly going to get themselves a beautiful bouquet of flowers.
我说，有人肯定会为自己送上一束美丽的鲜花。
And guess who that was.
猜猜那是谁。
Well, any guesses?
嗯，有什么猜测吗？
Margie moved into Mubarak's graduate school apartment, which, by the way, was at the same university where Sabir had taught.
玛吉搬进了穆巴拉克的研究生院公寓，顺便说一句，这也是萨比尔曾任教的同一所大学。
In her old life, she'd been supported by one man, her husband, the professor.
在她过去的生活中，她得到了一个男人的支持，那就是她的丈夫，一位教授。
In her new life, she was surrounded by a whole sissy entourage.
在她的新生活中，她周围都是娘娘腔的随从。
Mubarak's friends were always coming in and whisking her away to the orchestra, to plays.
穆巴拉克的朋友们总是过来带她去管弦乐队演奏。
They adored her.
他们很崇拜她。
She still cried every day, many times a day, for the first few months.
最初的几个月里，她仍然每天哭很多次。
And every day, she got at least one letter from Sabir, sometimes two.
每天，她至少收到萨比尔的一封信，有时是两封。
Finally one day, the letter that came from Sabir said he'd gotten married.
终于有一天，萨比尔寄来一封信，说他已经结婚了。
Mubarak, not knowing what was in the letter, gave it to Margie and went to his room.
穆巴拉克不知道信里写的是什么，就把它交给了玛吉，然后回到了自己的房间。
We came back out.
我们回来了。
It was five or 10 minutes later.
已经是五、十分钟后了。
And she was still sitting there, but she had a funny look on her face.
而她依然坐在那里，只是脸上的表情有些古怪。
So I said, "Are you OK?" And she started saying things like, "Please don't hurt me, please don't hurt me" and crying.
所以我说：“你还好吗？”她开始说“请不要伤害我，请不要伤害我”之类的话，并哭泣。
I'm like, "Margie, what are you talking about?"
我说：“玛吉，你在说什么？”
"Don't come any closer.
“别再靠近了。
Don't come any closer.
别再靠近了。
Don't hurt me." And she didn't know who I was.
别伤害我。”而且她不知道我是谁。
She didn't know who she was.
她不知道自己是谁。
I was just out of it.
我刚刚摆脱了它。
Nancy Updike Her amnesia-- Mubarak calls it a vacation from the bad news-- lasted several days.
南希·厄普代克（Nancy Updike）的失忆症——穆巴拉克称之为摆脱坏消息的假期——持续了好几天。
One, two, three.
一、二、三。
Cardiologist There you go.
心脏病专家 给你。
We're in Margie's cardiologist's office, and she's about to surprise me.
我们在玛吉的心脏病专家办公室，她即将给我带来惊喜。
On the last day I spend with Margie and Mubarak, she suddenly murmurs that she wishes Mubarak had gotten married.
在我与玛吉和穆巴拉克度过的最后一天，她突然低声说她希望穆巴拉克结婚。
I wish you would've married.
我希望你已经结婚了。
Nancy Updike You wish that Mubarak would've married?
南希·厄普代克：您希望穆巴拉克结婚吗？
Mark Stoner.
马克·斯托纳.
Nancy Updike Now most mothers who say, oh, I wish my gay son had gotten married, and you ask them who, they don't say a man.
南希·厄普代克 现在，大多数母亲都会说，哦，我希望我的同性恋儿子结婚了，而你问他们是谁，他们不会说是男人。
Mark Stoner.
马克·斯托纳.
Nancy Updike So you don't wish Mubarak had married any girl that you know?
南希·厄普代克 那么你不希望穆巴拉克娶了任何你认识的女孩？
I wish he'd married Mark Stoner, because he was a nice guy and he loved Mubarak a lot.
我希望他嫁给了马克·斯托纳，因为他是个好人，而且非常爱穆巴拉克。
Even after all the time I'd spent with her, I had completely expected her to say a woman's name.
即使我和她相处了这么久，我还是完全希望她会说出一个女人的名字。
Because even though it's common when men come out as gay for their mothers to be more accepting than their fathers, there are usually at least some pretty clear limits for the mothers too, certain ways that they're used to seeing the world and just can't give up.
因为尽管男性出柜是为了让母亲比父亲更容易接受男性出柜，但母亲通常也至少有一些相当明确的限制，她们习惯了看待世界的某些方式，无法放弃。
But Margie's world and Mubarak's are not really separate as they are for most gay people and their parents.
但玛吉的世界和穆巴拉克的世界并不像大多数同性恋者及其父母那样是分开的。
Mubarak is really glad she's here.
穆巴拉克很高兴她在这里。
He says it all the time.
他一直这么说。
And he spends a lot of time with Margie, willingly, happily.
他花了很多时间和玛吉在一起，心甘情愿、快乐地。
He's the only person I know who seems as unambivalent in his love for his mother as she is in her love for him.
他是我认识的唯一一个对母亲的爱和母亲对他的爱一样明确的人。
Every once in a while, he talks about something I know he thinks about a lot, which is that this is the end of Margie's life, and he's grateful that she's spending it here where he can be with her.
每隔一段时间，他就会谈论一些我知道他经常思考的事情，那就是玛吉生命的终结，他很感激她在这里度过了他可以和她在一起的时光。
You're wobbling back and forth.
你前后摇摇晃晃。
Margie?
玛吉？
Margie?
玛吉？
Margie, talk to me.
玛吉，跟我说话。
What is it, Barkie?
这是什么，巴基？
Mubarak What's happening?
穆巴拉克 发生什么事了？
While I was taping, Margie had what seemed to be a small stroke.
当我录音时，玛吉似乎出现了轻微的中风。
Margie?
玛吉？
Margie?
玛吉？
Margie?
玛吉？
Nancy Updike Do you want me to call 911, Mubarak?
南希·厄普代克 你要我拨打 911 吗，穆巴拉克？
It all happened in about two minutes.
这一切都发生在大约两分钟内。
And when it was over, Margie seemed fine, although disoriented and tired.
结束后，玛吉看起来很好，尽管神志不清、疲惫不堪。
She couldn't really remember what had happened.
她实在记不清发生了什么。
We were more shaken than she was.
我们比她更震惊。
Mubarak and I talked in the kitchen afterward while he made Margie some tea.
随后，穆巴拉克和我在厨房里聊天，他给玛吉泡了茶。
That was really scary.
那真是太可怕了。
Mubarak That was so frightening.
穆巴拉克 这太可怕了。
Because it's so scary when you go to the hospital-- I remember the first time I went.
因为去医院的时候太可怕了——我记得我第一次去的时候。
And she had congestive heart failure, and you don't know what that means.
她患有充血性心力衰竭，你不知道这意味着什么。
You hear "heart failure," and you panic.
你听到“心力衰竭”，你就会惊慌失措。
And then I remember the other two times, going into the hospital and thinking, it should be easier this time.
然后我记得另外两次，走进医院并想，这一次应该容易一些。
But every time it happens, it gets scarier because you think you're one step closer to something really awful happening.
但每次它发生时，它都会变得更加可怕，因为你认为你离真正可怕的事情发生更近了一步。
I'm going to be a mess whenever anything really serious happens.
每当发生真正严重的事情时，我就会变得一团糟。
We just did that because we knew you were going to be tape recording today.
我们这样做只是因为我们知道你今天要录音。
I'm like, "Margie, do think think you can have a little heart failure this afternoon?" [LAUGHS]
我说：“玛吉，你觉得你今天下午会有点心力衰竭吗？” [笑]
Just do what you can.
尽你所能。
Mubarak I'm so scared all the time.
穆巴拉克 我一直很害怕。
P.S., it might not be clear from this story, but I think Margie really loved Sabir.
P.S.，从这个故事中可能不清楚，但我认为玛吉真的很爱萨比尔。
I think he really loved her.
我想他是真的爱她。
We saw it clear as day in the pages of her wedding scrapbook.
我们在她的婚礼剪贴簿上清楚地看到了这一点。
She turns to a picture from her wedding day.
她翻到一张结婚当天的照片。
Sabir's embracing Margie, and both their eyes are closed.
萨比尔拥抱玛吉，他们都闭上了眼睛。
They're smiling.
他们在微笑。
They look completely happy, probably not even aware the picture's being taken.
他们看起来非常高兴，可能甚至没有意识到照片正在被拍摄。
What were you thinking right at that moment when that was happening?
当那件事发生的那一刻你在想什么？
I got that man.
我得到了那个人。
He's mine now.
他现在是我的了。
[LAUGHS] My mother had told me, when you find the right one, you know it.
[笑]我妈妈告诉我，当你找到合适的人时，你就知道了。
And I did.
我做到了。
Well, I thought he was the right one.
嗯，我认为他是对的。
Turned out he wasn't.
结果他不是。
I never did find the right one.
我一直没有找到合适的人。
[MUSIC - "I'M IN SUCH PAIN FROM LOVING YOU" BY LINDA RONSTADT, DOLLY PARTON, AND EMMYLOU HARRIS]
[音乐 - 琳达·朗斯塔特、多莉·帕顿和埃米卢·哈里斯创作的《我因爱你而痛苦》]
I'm joined here in the studio right now by John Connors, who often provides music for our program and also performs around Chicago.
约翰·康纳斯（John Connors）现在加入我的录音室，他经常为我们的节目提供音乐，也在芝加哥各地演出。
And you've brought in a book with you.
你还带来了一本书。
The name of the book is?
书名是？
It's written in huge block letters on the cover.
封面上用大写字母写着。
Well, it's a black cover with white and sort of this-- would you call it a daisy yellow?
嗯，它是一个黑底白字的封面——你会称它为雏菊黄吗？
I would.
我会的。
John Connors And it was funny because walking down Lincoln Avenue, it's really funny how people sort of look at you in this odd way when you're carrying a book on how to improve your personality.
约翰·康纳斯：这很有趣，因为走在林肯大街上，当你拿着一本关于如何改善你的个性的书时，人们用这种奇怪的方式看着你，这真的很有趣。
Immediately, you're suspect, and they wonder what's wrong.
你立刻就会产生怀疑，他们想知道出了什么问题。
And then I, of course, turn the book so no one can read it.
然后我当然会把这本书翻过来，这样就没有人能读到它了。
So I'm thinking, I'm so insecure with my personality that I don't want people to think that there's something wrong.
所以我想，我对自己的个性非常没有安全感，所以我不想让人们认为有什么问题。
And this book has an important lesson for us-- for our program today, on our theme today.
这本书对我们来说是一个重要的教训——对于我们今天的节目，关于我们今天的主题。
And why don't you just open it up and read?
你为什么不打开它来阅读呢？
This is from the chapter "Good Appearance: Grooming" from the section "Other Appearance Factors in Men."
这是摘自“男性外观的其他因素”部分的“良好外观：仪容仪表”一章。
Copyright?
版权？
John Connors Copyright 1942.
约翰·康纳斯 版权所有 1942。
Reprint, 1954.
重印，1954 年。
"If your physique, complexion, voice, speech, habits, carriage, or general behavior in the slightest degree suggest a femininity, do everything in your power to create an impression of masculinity.
“如果你的体格、肤色、声音、言语、习惯、举止或一般行为有丝毫女性气质，请尽一切努力营造男性气质的印象。
Pitch your voice lower.
把你的声音放低一点。
Develop your arm muscles and your chest expansion.
发展你的手臂肌肉和胸部扩张。
Avoid pet expressions and exclamations commonly used by women.
避免使用女性常用的宠物表情和感叹词。
See that your posture and walk are masculine.
确保你的姿势和步态充满男性魅力。
Hold up your shoulders.
撑起你的肩膀。
Throw out your chest.
伸出你的胸膛。
Take longer steps.
采取更长的步骤。
Think masculine and act masculine.
以男性化的方式思考并以男性化的方式行事。
Here's a list of gestures commonly associated with women and another list commonly associated with men.
以下是通常与女性相关的手势列表和另一个通常与男性相关的手势列表。
If you use any of the feminine gestures, stop at once and substitute the corresponding masculine gesture.
如果你使用任何女性化的手势，请立即停止并用相应的男性化手势代替。
You'll have to watch yourself pretty closely on this one.
在这一点上你必须非常仔细地观察自己。
Feminine gesture, hand on hip.
女性姿态，手放在臀部。
Masculine gesture, hands folded over chest or clasped in back.
男性姿势，双手交叉在胸前或扣在背后。
Feminine gesture, tapping front teeth with fingernail.
女性化的手势，用指甲轻敲门牙。
Masculine gesture, clenched fist under chin or jaw.
男性姿态，在下巴或下巴下握紧拳头。
Feminine gesture, looking at people from the corner of eyes.
女性化的姿态，用眼角的余光看人。
Masculine gesture, direct look.
男性的姿态，直视。
Entire head turned toward person.
整个头转向人。
Feminine gesture, putting one hand up to the back to touch hair.
女性化的姿势，将一只手举到背后抚摸头发。
Masculine gesture, clenching fingers of both hands together firmly at the back of head.
男性的姿势，双手手指在脑后紧紧地握在一起。
How do you laugh?
你笑得怎么样？
Are your laughs pitched high like a woman's?
你的笑声像女人一样高亢吗？
[HIGH-PITCHED LAUGH] Lower the pitch.
[高声笑]降低音调。
Develop a masculine laugh.
培养一种男性化的笑声。
Chuckle.
咯咯笑。
Laugh from the depths of your chest and stomach.
从胸腔和胃部深处笑出来。
[DEEPER LAUGH] Roar.
[更深的笑]咆哮。
Bellow.
吼叫。
Do anything but giggle.
除了傻笑什么都可以做。
Don't be guilty of a high, hysterical laugh.
不要因为歇斯底里的大笑而感到内疚。
Listen to Edward Arnold and Clark Gable in the movies.
听听爱德华·阿诺德和克拉克·盖博在电影中的表演。
Imitate their laughter.
模仿他们的笑声。
You can't do it, but you can at least try."
你做不到，但你至少可以尝试一下。”
Can you imagine a gay man in 1942 actually reading this and trying to follow these instructions?
你能想象 1942 年的一个同性恋者真的读到了这篇文章并试图遵循这些指示吗？
I mean, I could see people taking notes.
我的意思是，我可以看到人们做笔记。
Self-help books are still the same.
自助书籍还是一样。
OK, but when you picture this guy in 1942 reading this book, this effeminate guy reading the book and thinking, "OK, OK, I've got to do that," where is he, and who is he?
好吧，但是当你想象 1942 年这个人读这本书时，这个女性化的人读这本书并想，“好吧，好吧，我必须这么做”，他在哪里，他是谁？
Well, he's probably still living at home.
嗯，他可能还住在家里。
Probably the unmarried 30-year-old who his last ditch effort is to prove to everyone that he's not the sissy that everyone thinks he is and that there must be a formula for it.
大概是一个30岁未婚的人，他最后的努力就是向所有人证明他不是每个人都认为的娘娘腔，而且一定有一个公式。
I picture this guy-- let's call him Benton-- and he's in his bedroom at his parents' house, and he has remodeled since he was a kid.
我想象这个人——我们就叫他本顿吧——他在他父母家的卧室里，他从小就重新装修过。
And it's 1942.
现在是 1942 年。
Is he 4-F?
他是4-F吗？
Is he going to go to the war?
他要去参战吗？
Has he been to the war?
他参加过战争吗？
If you're putting the war factor into this, maybe you have somebody who's in their early 20s who can't get into the war because he is so effeminate.
如果你将战争因素纳入其中，也许你会遇到一个 20 岁出头的人，因为他太女性化而无法参加战争。
I've seen documentaries of gay men in World War II, and I think there probably came a point when, actually, they had to take pretty much everybody.
我看过有关二战期间男同性恋的纪录片，我认为可能到了某个时候，他们实际上不得不带走几乎所有人。
And there were the famous gay battalions--
还有著名的同性恋大队——
Exactly.
正是如此。
Ira Glass --that went into France first because they were the only ones that could speak French.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）——首先进入法国，因为他们是唯一会说法语的人。
[LAUGHTER] "Send in the gay battalion!"
[笑声]“派出同性恋大队！”
And raided the lingerie shops and redesigned all the clothes.
并搜查了内衣店并重新设计了所有的衣服。
Just redecorated the whole place so the Germans didn't want it anymore because it was just too foofy for them.
只是重新装修了整个地方，所以德国人不再想要它了，因为这对他们来说太愚蠢了。
"We won't be staying here.
“我们不会留在这里。
It's far too foofy." Oh, god.
这实在是太蠢了。”哦，上帝。
Well, John Connors.
好吧，约翰·康纳斯。
Coming up, more sissies in the house.
快到了，家里又多了个娘娘腔。
Dan Savage, many people without clenched fists under their jaw.
丹·萨维奇（Dan Savage），很多人下巴下没有紧握拳头。
That's all in a minute when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续进行时，这一切就在一分钟之内。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose some theme and bring you documentaries, monologues, overheard conversations, found tape, found text, anything we can think of on that theme.
当然，每周在我们的节目中，我们都会选择一些主题，并为您带来纪录片、独白、无意中听到的对话、找到的磁带、找到的文本，以及我们能想到的有关该主题的任何内容。
Today's program, Sissies.
今天的节目，娘娘腔。
We've arrived at Act Three of our program, The Pansy Kings Sing Songs of Love.
我们已经到了节目的第三幕，三色堇国王唱情歌。
And we've arrived at this question.
我们已经回答了这个问题。
Why do sissies freak people out so much?
为什么娘娘腔会让人们如此害怕？
What is the big deal, anyway?
无论如何，有什么大不了的？
I would argue that there are two things going on with sissies.
我认为胆怯的人身上有两件事。
First of all, there's the idea that they're weak, right?
首先，人们认为他们很弱，对吗？
And since everybody has, at one point or another in their life, feared being seen as weak, it can be painful to see somebody else who seems weak.
由于每个人在一生中的某个时刻都害怕被视为软弱，所以看到其他人看起来软弱可能会很痛苦。
Second, there's the fact that they cross gender lines, sissies do.
其次，事实上她们跨越了性别界限，娘娘腔就是这么做的。
These are boys who act like girls, or that's the stereotype, anyway.
这些男孩表现得像女孩，或者无论如何，这就是刻板印象。
This next story is about a sissy who got rid of half of that formula.
下一个故事是关于一个娘娘腔的，她扔掉了一半的配方奶粉。
He got rid of the appearing weak part of it.
他去掉了它看似薄弱的部分。
And by doing that, he was able to get away with crossing gender lines and acting more androgynous.
通过这样做，他能够摆脱性别界限，表现得更加雌雄同体。
This is the story of Dave Awl, a man who these days embraces his sissiness.
这是戴夫·奥尔（Dave Awl）的故事，他是一个如今拥抱自己娘娘腔的男人。
"Embraces" isn't even big enough for his relationship to his sissiness.
“拥抱”对于他与娘娘腔的关系来说甚至还不够大。
He's a guy who founded something called The Pansy Kings, gay and sissy performers who do a show they call the Pansy King Cotillion here in Chicago.
他是一个名为“三色堇国王”的人，一群同性恋和娘娘腔的表演者，他们在芝加哥举办了一场他们称之为“三色堇国王舞会”的表演。
But back in Peoria where he grew up, he was not so happy being a sissy.
但回到他长大的皮奥里亚，他并不太高兴做一个娘娘腔。
I got my leg broken in PE class for wrestling.
我在体育课上摔跤时摔断了腿。
Instead of matching people with people who were of their same strength, they would match you with a guy who was of your same weight.
他们不会为你匹配力量相同的人，而是为你匹配体重相同的人。
Well, of course, I was this really fat kid-- really, really heavy, overweight kid.
嗯，当然，我是一个非常胖的孩子——非常非常重，超重的孩子。
And the other guy, who weighed the same of me, was a sheet of beef.
另一个和我体重一样的家伙是一块牛肉。
He was this big, simian, hulk of a guy.
他是一个身材高大、像猿猴一样的家伙。
And the PE teacher, perhaps out of cluelessness but also, I think, there was some malice toward the pansy kid and wanting to see the pansy kid get messed over, he has me wrestle the brute.
而体育老师，也许是出于无知，但我认为，对那个三色堇孩子有一些恶意，想要看到三色堇孩子被搞砸，他让我和那个畜生摔跤。
So it's me and the brute out there on the mat.
所以这是我和垫子上的野兽。
And of course, within 30 seconds, I'm lying on the mat, and my leg is in two pieces.
当然，不到30秒，我就躺在垫子上，我的腿就断成了两截。
And I just remember that I was sort of moaning and crying, "Oh dear, oh dear.
我只记得我当时在呻吟和哭泣，“天哪，天哪。
Oh my, oh my." Which had to be probably the most Blanche DuBois-like moment of my young life as I was carried out on the stretcher crying, "Oh dear, oh my.
哦天哪，哦天哪。”这可能是我年轻生命中最像布兰奇·杜波依斯的时刻，我被抬上担架，哭着说：“天哪，天哪。
Oh my, oh dear."
哦天哪，哦亲爱的。”
I got a lot of abuse, especially in PE class because I was bad at sports.
我受到了很多辱骂，尤其是在体育课上，因为我的运动成绩很差。
And obviously that was important to the other kids, and they didn't want to have me on their team.
显然这对其他孩子来说很重要，他们不想让我加入他们的团队。
I got a lot of insults in the hallway or people knocking my books out of my hands or whatever.
我在走廊里受到了很多侮辱，或者有人把我的书从我手中打落，等等。
And what happened is I started to develop a persona.
发生的事情是我开始塑造一个角色。
And my best friend at that time was a girl who went to another high school, named Lydia.
而我当时最好的朋友是一个就读于另一所高中的女孩，名叫莉迪亚。
And she was very punk.
而且她非常朋克。
She was the punk rock girl.
她是朋克摇滚女孩。
And what I did is, naturally, I started changing my look.
我自然而然地开始改变自己的外表。
And I got the very first spiky punk haircut ever seen in East Peoria.
我得到了东皮奥里亚有史以来第一个尖刺朋克发型。
And the effect that this had was really strange, because I went from being overtly and aggressively mocked to being really given a wide berth.
这所产生的效果真的很奇怪，因为我从被公然、咄咄逼人的嘲笑变成了真正的敬而远之。
I went from being mocked to almost being feared, because suddenly, I was turning up at school with this weird spiky haircut, wearing these baggy yellow trousers a la Madness and vintage green suit jackets.
我从被嘲笑变成了几乎被害怕，因为突然间，我出现在学校，留着奇怪的尖头发型，穿着疯狂的黄色宽松裤子和复古的绿色西装外套。
And you've got to understand that at my high school, to walk down the hallways, it looked like a Loverboy video.
你必须明白，在我的高中，走在走廊上，它看起来就像是 Loverboy 的视频。
There was this very specific uniform that consisted of a really ugly flannel shirt, a black t-shirt under it that could say one of five things, and only these five things-- Led Zeppelin, AC/DC, REO Speedwagon, Jack Daniels, or Harley-Davidson.
有一种非常特殊的制服，由一件非常丑陋的法兰绒衬衫和一件黑色 T 恤组成，上面可以写着五件事之一，而且只有这五件事——Led Zeppelin、AC/DC、REO Speedwagon、Jack Daniels 或 Harley-Davidson。
And you could not deviate from that palette.
你不能偏离这个调色板。
So I turn up dressed like a refugee from a Madness video or a David Bowie album cover.
所以我打扮得像《疯狂》视频或大卫·鲍伊专辑封面中的难民。
And to them, to come to school looking like that, I must be capable of anything.
对他们来说，能以这样的样子来到学校，我必须有能力。
I had a friend tell me he had overheard these two senior burnout girls talking, and one of them said something like, "That Dave Awl, he's crazy.
我有一个朋友告诉我，他无意中听到这两个精疲力尽的高年级女孩说话，其中一个说了这样的话，“那个戴夫·锥子，他疯了。
He'd jump in front of a bus if you told him to.
如果你告诉他，他会跳到公共汽车前面。
He looks like he could kill somebody."
他看起来好像可以杀人。”
There was nothing further from the truth.
事实并非如此。
I was probably the only kid in that school who would never have taken a pill my mother didn't give me.
我可能是那所学校里唯一一个永远不会服用母亲没有给我的药的孩子。
And frankly, I was awfully cowed by authority.
坦率地说，我被权威吓坏了。
But suddenly, I had this look.
但突然，我看到了这样的表情。
You were still a sissy.
你还是个娘娘腔。
Dave Awl Uh huh.
戴夫·奥尔 嗯嗯。
I was still a sissy, but I was a different kind of sissy, because what the punk new wave aesthetic allowed you to do was be androgynous in a way that was also kind of tough.
我仍然是个娘娘腔，但我是另一种娘娘腔，因为朋克新浪潮美学允许你以一种也有点艰难的方式做到雌雄同体。
You had this dyed, funny hair, but you also had a safety pin through your ear.
你的头发染成了滑稽的颜色，但你的耳朵上还插着一根安全别针。
And you were maybe wearing eyeliner, but you were also wearing ripped jeans and a black biker jacket.
你可能画了眼线，但你也穿着破洞牛仔裤和黑色机车夹克。
So what it did is it confused them because it was sending all of these mixed signals.
所以它所做的就是让他们感到困惑，因为它发送了所有这些混合信号。
A signal of violence at the same time as a signal of something else.
这是暴力的信号，同时也是其他事物的信号。
Well, at least a signal of, don't mess with me.
好吧，至少是一个信号，别惹我。
I can take care of myself, and I'm not afraid of you.
我能照顾好自己，我也不怕你。
I call it the "squid strategy." You muddy the waters as an act of defense.
我称之为“鱿鱼策略”。你把水搅浑作为一种防御行为。
You shoot out a lot of ink into the water and confuse them, and suddenly they don't know where to strike.
你向水中射出大量墨水，迷惑它们，它们突然不知道该攻击哪里。
Because suddenly, they didn't think I looked like what they meant by a faggot anymore, which is someone who's really pathetic and weak, because I also looked kind of tough and strange.
因为突然之间，他们觉得我不再像他们所说的基佬了，基佬是一个非常可怜和软弱的人，因为我看起来也有点强硬和奇怪。
And yet, there were these androgynous elements.
然而，还是有这些雌雄同体的元素。
And the result is that they just started leaving me alone.
结果就是他们开始让我一个人呆着。
I didn't get called a faggot anymore in the hallway.
我在走廊里再也没有被称为基佬了。
I didn't really get called anything.
我真的没有被叫过什么。
And what I discovered was that while I would never have chosen to be feared on my own, once there, I realized that it was a lot better than being mocked.
我发现，虽然我永远不会选择自己被人害怕，但一旦到了那里，我意识到这比被嘲笑要好得多。
The problem is I was still not dealing with the internalized sissy phobia, because I was allowed to be androgynous.
问题是我仍然没有处理内化的娘娘腔恐惧症，因为我被允许是雌雄同体的。
I was allowed to wear makeup or wear earrings or wear big flowery paisley shirts, only to the extent that I had this cover of also having the safety pin in the ear or the ripped jeans or the spiky hair or whatever looked tough.
我被允许化妆、戴耳环或穿大花佩斯利衬衫，但前提是我还要戴上安全别针、穿破洞牛仔裤、留尖头头发或任何看起来很硬朗的东西。
And it wasn't until college or a little after that I realized the real challenge was to be able to simply go out there like a drag queen does, without any of those balancing affectations of masculinity or toughness.
直到大学或之后不久，我才意识到真正的挑战是能够像变装皇后那样简单地走出去，而没有任何平衡男性气质或强硬的行为。
To really be a sissy and go out there only using the persona elements that are considered to be feminine was something I was still very afraid to do.
真正成为一个娘娘腔，只使用被认为是女性化的角色元素去那里，是我仍然非常害怕做的事情。
It's interesting that you were able to accept the fact that you were gay long before you were able to accept the fact that you were a sissy.
有趣的是，早在你能够接受你是个娘娘腔的事实之前，你就能够接受你是同性恋的事实。
I think that's really telling about which prejudice is more deeply rooted.
我认为这确实说明了哪种偏见更为根深蒂固。
I think a lot of homophobia comes from its association with sissiness, because the sissiness-- the breaking of those sacred gender categories-- is the deeper phobia in our culture.
我认为很多同性恋恐惧症都来自于它与娘娘腔的联系，因为娘娘腔——打破那些神圣的性别类别——是我们文化中更深层次的恐惧症。
It would be much easier for me to walk down the street carrying a copy of The Joy of Gay Sex openly than it would be to walk down the street in a pair of sparkly, ruby red high heels in this city, in this urban environment.
对我来说，在这个城市、在这个城市环境中，公开地拿着一本《同性之乐》走在街上，比穿着一双闪闪发光的宝石红色高跟鞋走在街上要容易得多。
I think I'm capable of doing both.
我想我有能力做到这两点。
But which one would I feel a little bit more inner self-consciousness or anxiety about doing?
但我会因为做哪一件事情而感到更多的内心不自在或焦虑呢？
It would be breaking the sissy barrier.
这将打破娘娘腔的障碍。
Dave Awl is the founder of the Pansy Kings performance collective and the host of The Partly Dave Show , a cabaret variety show here in Chicago.
戴夫·奥尔 (Dave Awl) 是 Pansy Kings 表演团体的创始人，也是芝加哥歌舞表演综艺节目 The Partly Dave Show 的主持人。
[MUSIC - "GIRL'S BIKE" BY THE ALUMINUM GROUP]
[音乐 - ALUMINIUM GROUP 的“女孩自行车”]
Act Four, The Other Love that Dare Not Speak its Name.
第四幕，另一种不敢说出名字的爱。
The love that we're talking about in this act is the love of sissies.
我们在这一幕中谈论的爱是娘娘腔的爱。
Dan Savage is a writer and editor at The Stranger, a weekly paper in Seattle, and author of the syndicated sex advice column, "Savage Love." Dan Savage says that he's met hundreds of gay men.
丹·萨维奇 (Dan Savage) 是西雅图周报《陌生人》的撰稿人和编辑，也是联合性建议专栏《野蛮之爱》的作者。丹·萨维奇说他见过数百名男同性恋者。
Thousands.
数千。
Enough that he can state definitively that most of them do not act like sissies, which he says is a shame for him because he loves sissies.
足以让他可以明确地说，他们中的大多数人表现得不像娘娘腔，他说这对他来说是一种耻辱，因为他喜欢娘娘腔。
My boyfriend is kind of a sissy.
我的男朋友有点娘娘腔。
He hates it when I mention it, and when he finds out that I said it on National Public Radio, he's going to kill me.
当我提到这件事时他讨厌它，当他发现我在国家公共广播电台说过这件事时，他会杀了我。
But he is kind of a sissy.
但他有点娘娘腔。
He cooks.
他做饭。
He likes to do laundry.
他喜欢洗衣服。
He's into fashion and Brit pop and Barbra Streisand.
他喜欢时尚、英伦流行音乐和芭芭拉·史翠珊。
And all that's OK with me.
对我来说这一切都很好。
I hate to cook.
我讨厌做饭。
And if he wants to listen to Funny Girl while he folds my shirts, well, I can deal.
如果他想在叠我的衬衫时听滑稽女孩的歌，那么我可以接受。
And besides, it's really no sacrifice on my part.
而且，我确实没有做出任何牺牲。
I think sissies are sexy.
我觉得娘娘腔很性感。
Though sissy isn't the right word, really.
虽然“娘娘腔”这个词不太合适，但真的。
Little boys who play with dolls are sissies.
玩洋娃娃的小男孩都是娘娘腔。
Grown men who went to see The Mirror Has Two Faces on the morning it opened and loved it are known in gay slang, at least, as femmes.
《镜子有两张脸》上映的那天早上就去看了并且喜欢它的成年男性至少在同性恋俚语中被称为“女性”。
My attraction to femmy guys is rooted, I have no doubt, in a high school experience.
毫无疑问，我对女同性恋的吸引力源于高中的经历。
At St. Gregory the Great where I spent my sophomore year, there was this senior-- totally femmy and gay and out of the closet-- and this was in 1979.
在我读大二的圣格雷戈里学院，有一位高年级学生——完全女性化、同性恋，而且出柜了——那是在 1979 年。
He dressed in Kmart disco fashions and wore his hair long and used eyeliner.
他穿着凯马特迪斯科时装，留着长发，画了眼线。
St. Greg's was a dumping ground.
圣格雷格是一个垃圾场。
All the kids kicked out of other Catholic high schools for being bad students or hoodlums wound up at Greg's.
所有因为坏学生或流氓而被其他天主教高中开除的孩子最终都被送到了格雷格高中。
These were not kids who instinctively honored diversity.
这些孩子并不是本能地尊重多样性。
These were kids who beat up sissies.
这些都是殴打娘娘腔的孩子。
But no pounding could stop St. Greg's only femme.
但任何重击都无法阻止圣格雷格唯一的女人。
Like Gandhi he'd be back the day after a beating, defiant in his satin pants with his hair feathered back like Farrah Fawcett's.
就像甘地一样，他会在被殴打后的第二天回来，穿着缎子裤子，头发像法拉·福塞特一样向后梳起。
No punch, no putdown could stop him from talking loudly in the cafeteria about the bars he went to, the men he dated, the trouble he'd seen.
任何拳打脚踢、任何贬低都无法阻止他在自助餐厅里大声谈论他去过的酒吧、他约会过的男人以及他遇到的麻烦。
He was very femmy, but he didn't want to be a woman.
他很有女人味，但他不想成为女人。
He liked being a guy, and he liked being gay.
他喜欢做一个男人，也喜欢做一个同性恋。
And he liked everyone to know about it.
他希望每个人都知道这件事。
As a miserably-closeted 14-year-old sophomore, I desperately wanted to go to gay bars in satin pants.
作为一个封闭得可怜的 14 岁大二学生，我非常想穿着缎子裤去同性恋酒吧。
I wanted to date men.
我想和男人约会。
I wanted to see some trouble.
我想看看有什么麻烦。
But I wasn't brave enough or strong enough or courageous enough.
但我不够勇敢、不够坚强、不够勇敢。
This femmy senior, he was all those butch things.
这位女前辈，就是个肉肉的家伙。
He displayed more courage when he walked into St. Greg's every morning than I've ever displayed in my life, which is why I had such a crush on him, I think.
每天早上，当他走进圣格雷格医院时，他表现出了我一生中从未表现出的勇气，我想这就是我如此迷恋他的原因。
Of all the tough kids at St. Greg's, he was absolutely the toughest.
在圣格雷格学校所有坚强的孩子中，他绝对是最坚强的。
Which brings me, in a rather roundabout fashion, to the personal ads.
这让我以相当迂回的方式谈到了个人广告。
Being attracted to femmes and willing to admit it makes me something of a rarity among gay men, judging from gay personal ads.
从同性恋个人广告来看，被女性吸引并愿意承认这一点使我在男同性恋中很少见。
No one seems to like femme guys much.
似乎没有人很喜欢女汉子。
In the personals in the Village Voice , the Chicago Reader , and the SF Weekly, almost every other boy seeking a boy winds up his ad with "no fats, no femmes," or the truly appalling "straight-acting, straight-appearing."
在《乡村之声》、《芝加哥读者》和《科幻周刊》的交友中，几乎所有其他寻找男孩的男孩都以“没有脂肪，没有女人”或真正令人震惊的“直率行为，直率外表”来结束他的广告。
What is up with that?
这是怎么回事？
I don't have a problem with no fats, no femmes.
我对没有脂肪、没有女性没有问题。
That's just blunt.
这只是直言不讳。
But straight-acting and appearing?
但直来直去的表现？
What does that mean, exactly?
这到底是什么意思？
Straight-acting and appearing guys don't read gay personal ads, do they?
直率和外貌出众的男人不会看同性恋个人广告，不是吗？
Reading gay personals is a very gay-acting to do, and responding to gay personals is a very, very, very gay-acting thing to do, practically the gayest action a man can take short of having gay sex or owning the soundtrack to Yentil.
阅读同性恋交友是一件非常同性恋行为的事情，而回复同性恋交友也是一件非常非常非常同性恋行为的事情，实际上是一个男人除了同性恋或拥有 Yentil 配乐之外所能采取的最同性恋的行为。
When a person, a gay person, puts straight-acting, a straight-appearing in his ad-- and mind you, it's only about 1 out of 10 ads-- he's saying that gayness, in and of itself, is unattractive, undesirable.
当一个人，一个同性恋者，在他的广告中加入异性恋、异性恋时——请注意，这只是大约十分之一的广告——他是在说同性恋本身是没有吸引力的，不受欢迎的。
A few years ago, The Stranger , the paper I work for in Seattle, launched a personals section.
几年前，我在西雅图工作的报纸《陌生人》推出了交友栏目。
Being the sex guy at the paper, the personals became my responsibility.
作为报纸上的性感男，交友成了我的责任。
I ran the section and got to decide what was and was not kosher.
我负责管理这个部门，并决定什么是犹太洁食，什么不是犹太洁食。
And the first thing I absolutely forbid was "straight-acting, straight-appearing."
我绝对禁止的第一件事就是“行事直率、外表直率”。
Some of my straight-acting and appearing coworkers, who were also actually straight, objected.
我的一些行为和表面上都是异性恋的同事表示反对，他们实际上也是异性恋。
Nothing else was banned in our freewheeling personals section.
我们随心所欲的交友部分没有禁止任何其他内容。
Deleting "straight-acting" reeked of PC censorship.
删除“直率”带有电脑审查的味道。
After pitching a hissy fit at a staff meeting, a very gay-acting thing to do, by the way, I got my way.
在一次员工会议上发出嘶嘶声后，这是一件非常同性恋的事情，顺便说一句，我如愿以偿。
We wouldn't run ads from a black woman seeking white-acting black men, I remember shouting, or a Jewish guy seeking Christian-appearing Jewish women, would we?
我记得我喊道，我们不会投放黑人女性寻找白人扮演的黑人男性的广告，或者犹太男性寻找基督徒外表的犹太女性的广告，不是吗？
Most of my straight-appearing coworkers saw my point, and the rest were willing to let the lone sissy on staff make the call about what was, I told them, a gay thing.
我的大多数直率同事都明白我的观点，而其余的人则愿意让员工中孤独的娘娘腔打电话来谈论我告诉他们的同性恋问题。
As a result, The Stranger is, so far as I know, the only paper in the country, gay or straight that will not allow gay men to advertise themselves as straight-acting, straight-appearing.
因此，据我所知，《陌生人》是全国唯一一份不允许同性恋者宣传自己行为异性、外表异性的报纸，无论是同性恋还是异性恋。
Not that something hasn't taken its place.
并不是说有什么东西没有取代它的位置。
Something has, a monster of my own creation.
有什么东西，是我自己创造的怪物。
You see, at first, if someone sent in a straight-acting ad, we'd run the ad just without the phrase.
您会看到，一开始，如果有人发送直接广告，我们会在没有该短语的情况下投放广告。
But sometimes, dropping the phrase left a hole in the ad.
但有时，删除这句话会在广告中留下一个漏洞。
So we would very occasionally substitute the word "masculine" for the phrase "straight-acting straight-appearing." The word caught on, and now it's in almost every ad in the boys-seeking-boys section of the Stranger personals.
因此，我们偶尔会用“男性气概”一词来代替“直率直率的外表”这一短语。这个词开始流行起来，现在陌生人交友中寻找男孩的部分的几乎所有广告中都出现了这个词。
What you don't see much of in the personals are men looking for femmy guys.
在交友中你看不到太多男人在寻找女人味的男人。
And ads placed by guys who admit to being femmy are the rarest of the rare, since admitting to being femme has all the allure of admitting to being a fat slob.
而那些承认自己是女人的男人投放的广告是极为罕见的，因为承认自己是女人就像承认自己是个胖子一样具有诱惑力。
Here's an interesting one.
这是一个有趣的。
"Black male, secure, straight-acting, in the closet, femme, seeking boyfriend." Wow.
“黑人男性，有安全感，行事正直，出柜，女性，正在寻找男朋友。”哇。
Coming across this ad made me feel like a bird watcher who just spotted some rare tropical parrot up in the Arctic Circle.
看到这则广告让我感觉自己就像一个观鸟者刚刚在北极圈发现了一些稀有的热带鹦鹉。
A straight-acting femme.
一个性格直爽的女人。
How do you pull that off?
你如何做到这一点？
And here's another ad from a guy who risked describing himself as femmy.
这是另一则广告，来自一个冒险将自己描述为女性的人。
"Gay, white male, 5'9", 150 pounds, HIV negative, attractive, mildly feminine, seeks relationship with gay male around six foot." I decided to give him a call.
“同性恋，白人男性，身高 5 英尺 9 英寸，体重 150 磅，艾滋病毒阴性，有吸引力，略带女性气质，寻求与六英尺左右的男同性恋关系。”我决定给他打电话。
His name is Mark.
他的名字叫马克。
When you say "feminine," what are you trying to tell people who read your personal about you?
当你说“女性化”时，你想告诉那些阅读你的个人资料的人什么？
I'm not masculine.
我不是男子汉。
I'm not straight-acting.
我不是一个正直的人。
And I wanted to clarify that because it sickens me when I read a personal ad and it says, I'm straight-acting.
我想澄清这一点，因为当我读到一则个人广告时，我感到恶心，广告上写着“我是个直率的人”。
Why does that bother you?
为什么这让你烦恼？
Mark Because it seems really self-hating, and I'd rather not define myself in terms of the straight culture.
马克：因为这看起来真的很自我厌恶，而且我不想用异性恋文化来定义自己。
Have you encountered guys who didn't like the fact that you were mildly feminine or guys who wouldn't date you or had negative experiences with guys who freaked out because you listen to Barbra Streisand or something?
你是否遇到过那些不喜欢你有点女性化这一事实的人，或者那些不会和你约会的人，或者因为你听芭芭拉·史翠珊之类的东西而吓坏的人有过负面经历的人？
I don't know if I would say I've had negative experiences, but I definitely think that-- well, I'll say that a friend of mine recently said that he thought that I would get more dates if I had a deeper voice.
我不知道我是否会说我有过消极的经历，但我肯定认为——好吧，我会说我的一个朋友最近说，他认为如果我的声音更深沉，我会得到更多的约会。
What does he want you to do?
他要你做什么？
[DEEP VOICE] He wants you to talk like this into the phone?
[低沉的声音] 他希望你这样对着电话说话？
[DEEP VOICE] He wants me to talk like this all the time.
[低沉的声音] 他希望我一直这样说话。
And that doesn't sound like it would be you.
听起来不像是你。
It doesn't sound like you would be comfortable doing that.
听起来你不愿意这样做。
No. Dan Savage But he thinks that you'll get more dates if you do that.
不，丹·萨维奇（Dan Savage），但他认为如果你这样做的话，你会得到更多的约会机会。
Do you think you'll get more dates if you pretend to be butcher than you actually are?
你认为如果你假装是屠夫，你会得到比实际屠夫更多的约会吗？
Well, I think that in the gay community, it's something, especially right now, that is desired, unfortunately.
嗯，我认为不幸的是，在同性恋社区中，尤其是现在，这是人们所渴望的。
Finally, I decided to call a couple of guys who took out personal ads describing themselves as straight-acting and appearing.
最后，我决定打电话给几个拍了个人广告的人，他们称自己是直率的、外表正直的人。
I really wanted to know what they thought they were doing when they wrote that down, what they thought it meant to be a straight-acting gay man.
我真的很想知道当他们写下这些内容时，他们认为自己在做什么，他们认为这对一个异性恋意味着什么。
Here's one.
这是一个。
"Bodybuilders, let me check you out, tease you, and please you.
“健美运动员们，让我检查一下你们，逗逗你们，取悦你们。
You be daring closet type.
你是大胆的壁橱类型。
I'm straight-acting closet bi.
我是直率的壁橱双。
30-something, attractive." I'd never spoken to a straight-acting closet bisexual before.
30多岁，有魅力。”我以前从未和一个坦诚的双性恋者说过话。
I gave him a call.
我给他打了电话。
What's straight-acting mean?
直行是什么意思？
Man Well, definitely not in the gay scene at all.
伙计，绝对不是同性恋场景。
Straight-acting, I go out with women.
性格耿直，我和女人出去。
I have girlfriends occasionally.
我偶尔也有女朋友。
And I don't think any of my friends would suspect that I have gay sex on the side.
而且我认为我的任何朋友都不会怀疑我有同性恋行为。
What if a really sexy-looking guy who looked really butch and really masculine answered your ad, but he had a lisp and was a little effeminate?
如果一个看起来很性感、看起来很男性化、很有男子气概的男人回答了你的广告，但他口齿不清，而且有点女性化，该怎么办？
At what point do you draw the line and say, "You're too effeminate for me"?
你什么时候会划清界限并说“你对我来说太女性化了”？
It would be a hard to tell you exactly where I would draw the line because it's all such a personal thing.
很难准确地告诉你我的界限在哪里，因为这都是个人的事情。
First impressions, when you talk to somebody, and then when you meet them.
第一印象，当你与某人交谈时，然后当你见到他们时。
So if a gay guy who was feminine but could act butch were to respond to your ad, you might think of going out with him so long as the whole time you were together, he could keep it up, he could keep acting sort of straight and appearing straight, even if he went home and put on ladies underwear and listened to Vikki Carr and cried?
所以，如果一个有女性气质但可能表现得很男性化的男同性恋者对你的广告做出了回应，你可能会想和他出去，只要你们在一起的整个时间里，他可以坚持下去，他可以保持直率的行为和外表，即使他回家后穿上女士内衣，听着 Vikki Carr 哭？
That would be perfect.
那将是完美的。
Dan Savage You would be OK with that?
丹·萨维奇（Dan Savage） 你同意吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Dan Savage Is fear of the consequences of coming out maybe part of what keeps you from being out with everybody?
丹·萨维奇（Dan Savage）是否担心出柜的后果可能是你不敢与所有人一起出柜的原因之一？
Definitely.
确实。
Dan Savage What are you afraid might happen?
丹·萨维奇 (Dan Savage) 你担心会发生什么？
Well, I don't want to freak out all my friends, for one thing.
嗯，一方面，我不想吓坏我所有的朋友。
Because some of my friends are really pretty conservative.
因为我的一些朋友确实很保守。
So how does it feel-- I mean, aren't you kind of lying to them?
那么感觉如何——我的意思是，你不是在对他们撒谎吗？
Aren't you like a black person whose best friend is a blind white person who hates black people?
你不就像一个黑人，他最好的朋友是一个讨厌黑人的盲人白人吗？
I never thought of it that way.
我从来没有这样想过。
I'm not sure I'd agree.
我不确定我是否会同意。
It's not like I'm a silent person when things are said and criticisms are made.
我并不是一个在有人议论和批评时保持沉默的人。
I saved this next interview for last because, of all the guys who place straight-acting personal ads, the saddest to my mind are the out gay guys who, in every other way, sound pretty together, except that they describe themselves as straight.
我把下一次采访留到了最后，因为在所有投放直男个人广告的人中，我心目中最悲伤的是那些出柜的同性恋者，他们在其他方面听起来都很漂亮，除了他们形容自己是异性恋。
Robert's ad reads, "Seeking companion of about my age.
罗伯特的广告上写着：“寻找与我年龄相仿的伴侣。
I am professional, medium build, 37 years old, 6'2", 220 pounds, straight-acting.
我是专业人士，中等身材，37 岁，身高 6 英尺 2 英寸，体重 220 磅，性格直率。
Looking for a guy for discreet excitement, friendship, and fun."
寻找一个能带来谨慎的兴奋、友谊和乐趣的人。”
When you say you're straight-acting, what do you mean?
当你说你很正直时，你是什么意思？
I just mean that it doesn't fit the traditional stereotype.
我只是说它不符合传统的刻板印象。
What is the traditional stereotype?
传统的刻板印象是什么？
You describe yourself as a gay man, yeah?
你形容自己是同性恋，是吗？
Right.
对。
Dan Savage But what's the traditional stereotype, that you think you don't fit, of gay men?
丹·萨维奇（Dan Savage）：但是您认为自己不适合男同性恋的传统刻板印象是什么？
Kind of effeminate.
有点娘娘腔。
Dan Savage Uh huh.
丹·萨维奇 嗯嗯。
What kind of guy are you looking for?
你要找什么样的人？
Just kind of a regular person like I think that I am.
就像我认为的那样，我只是一个普通人。
I work every day and play hard and just kind of lead a pretty quiet life, and I'm not looking for someone who is doing the--
我每天工作、努力玩耍，过着相当安静的生活，我并不是在寻找一个正在做这些事情的人——
The bar thing every night.
每晚的酒吧活动。
Robert The bar thing, yeah, kind of being burnt out and being promiscuous and things like that.
罗伯特：酒吧里的事情，是的，有点精疲力竭、滥交之类的。
What do you think when you see a really effeminate gay man, like, out in public being really effeminate?
当你看到一个非常女性化的男同性恋者在公共场合表现得非常女性化时，你会怎么想？
I just think, what does he do for a living?
我只是想，他靠什么谋生？
If I see him at night, I think it's really fun, and if I see the person during the day, I'm wondering, well, does he have a job?
如果我晚上看到他，我觉得真的很有趣，如果我白天看到这个人，我想知道，他有工作吗？
And what do people at work think?
工作中的人怎么想？
Being a member of a minority group, a racial minority, I think that it's really-- I'm just one who are a lot more conservative, and I think that when you label yourself, you make it a lot more difficult.
作为少数群体、少数种族的一员，我认为这实际上是——我只是一个更加保守的人，而且我认为当你给自己贴上标签时，你会让事情变得更加困难。
When you were a little boy, were you a sissy?
当你还是个小男孩的时候，你是个娘娘腔吗？
Yeah, my voice didn't mature fast enough for me.
是的，我的声音对我来说还不够成熟。
Do you think that that being picked on had any impact on your adult choices around being very, very private?
你认为被欺负对你成年后选择非常非常私密的事情有什么影响吗？
Yes, I do.
是的，我愿意。
I do.
我愿意。
You want to stay inside of the box.
你想留在盒子里。
And being inside of the male box, then people are not going to pick on you.
在男性盒子里，人们就不会挑剔你。
People are not going to do mean things and say horrible things about you as long as you stay within a realm of acceptable behavior.
只要你的行为保持在可接受的范围内，人们就不会做卑鄙的事情，也不会说你的坏话。
So part of what keeps you inside that realm of acceptable behavior, then, is fear of being picked on or being--
因此，让你处于可接受行为范围内的部分原因是害怕被欺负或被——
Labeled.
贴上标签。
Dan Savage Labeled or a victim of anti-gay violence.
丹·萨维奇 (Dan Savage) 被贴上标签或成为反同性恋暴力的受害者。
But it's fear, then, at least partially.
但至少部分是恐惧。
Yeah.
是的。
Dan Savage So in a way, when you see someone really swishy on the street, isn't that brave of them?
丹·萨维奇（Dan Savage） 所以从某种程度上来说，当你在街上看到一个非常帅气的人时，他们不是很勇敢吗？
Not always.
并非总是如此。
It depends on where the person's coming from.
这取决于这个人来自哪里。
I don't think that if you're swishy and you happen to be in a ghetto of other gay men, then you're free to do that.
我不认为如果你很时髦并且你碰巧在其他男同性恋者的贫民窟里，那么你就可以自由地这样做。
But I don't think that you're exceptionally brave.
但我不认为你特别勇敢。
I just think that you live in a very violent world, and things happen.
我只是认为你生活在一个非常暴力的世界里，事情就会发生。
And you try not to put yourself into a situation that bad things can happen to you.
你尽量不要让自己陷入可能发生坏事的境地。
I don't agree with Robert.
我不同意罗伯特的观点。
The way I see it, the bravest of all the guys I talked to was Mark, the guy who described himself as feminine in his personal ad.
在我看来，我交谈过的所有男人中最勇敢的是马克，他在个人广告中将自己描述为女性化的人。
Mark and that brave swishy senior I had a crush on at St. Greg's, they both have the courage to present their real selves to the world in all their glorious sissiness, which, in a world that despises feminine men and boys, is a risky thing to do, a brave thing to do.
马克和我在圣格雷格学院迷恋的那位勇敢、潇洒的学长，他们都有勇气以她们光荣的娘娘腔向世界展示真实的自己，在一个鄙视女性男人和男孩的世界里，这是一件冒险的事，也是一件勇敢的事。
Now, contrast their behavior with that of men who are straight-acting, 100% discreet, and in the closet, or men who are constantly policing their own behavior.
现在，将他们的行为与那些行事正直、百分百谨慎、不敢出柜的男人或不断约束自己行为的男人进行对比。
These are men ruled by fear-- fear of discovery, fear of femininity, fear of what it means to be who they are.
这些男人被恐惧所统治——害怕被发现，害怕女性气质，害怕成为自己的意义。
They are the sissies.
他们是娘娘腔。
I'm not saying that the closet case who asks gay men not to respond to his ad needs to be a big, swishy queen in order to be true to himself.
我并不是说要求男同性恋者不要回应他的广告的秘密案件需要成为一个大而时髦的女王才能忠于自己。
He just needs to be a man, secure about who he is, a man who isn't ruled by fear, a man willing to show himself to the world.
他只需要成为一个对自己是谁有安全感的人，一个不受恐惧支配的人，一个愿意向世界展示自己的人。
He needs to not be such a sissy.
他不需要这么娘娘腔。
Dan Savage.
丹·萨维奇.
He's the editor at The Stranger , and he has a book coming out in September called The Commitment.
他是《陌生人》杂志的编辑，九月出版了一本书，名为《承诺》。
Today's program was produced by Nancy Updike and myself with Peter Clowney, Alix Spiegel, and special guest producer Danny Miller, contributing editors Paul Tough, Jack Hitt, and Margy Rochlin.
今天的节目由南希·厄普代克和我本人、彼得·克劳尼、阿利克斯·斯皮格尔、特约客座制作人丹尼·米勒、特约编辑保罗·托夫、杰克·希特和玛吉·罗克林共同制作。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] And a very special thanks to Mubarak and Margie for letting us, our program, and Nancy Updike into their lives.
[致谢] 特别感谢 Mubarak 和 Margie 让我们、我们的项目和 Nancy Updike 进入他们的生活。
In the years since we first broadcast their story, Margie passed away in 1998 with Mubarak at her side, holding her hand and talking to her in the hospital when she had her final stroke.
自从我们第一次播出他们的故事以来，玛吉于 1998 年去世，当她最后一次中风时，穆巴拉克在医院里握着她的手并与她交谈。
Mubarak is currently the editor of the Express Gay News , the gay and lesbian newspaper in Fort Lauderdale, Florida.
穆巴拉克目前是佛罗里达州劳德代尔堡的同性恋报纸《同性恋新闻快报》的编辑。
Margie, I do a pretty good imitation of you.
玛吉，我模仿得很好。
This is what I was telling Mubarak.
这就是我对穆巴拉克说的话。
OK, now I'm imitating myself asking a question.
好吧，现在我模仿自己问一个问题。
"So, Margie, you said that?
“那么，玛吉，你是这么说的吗？
And what did Sabir say?" "Nothing.
萨比尔说什么了？” “什么也没说。
He just looked at me." Isn't that pretty good?
他只是看着我。”这不是很好吗？
That's real good.
那真是太好了。
It's good.
很好。
Ira Glass This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
艾拉·格拉斯《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] Our website, www.thisamericanlife.org, where you can listen to our programs for absolutely free.
[资金来源] 我们的网站 www.thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费收听我们的节目。
Or you can download episodes of our program at audible.com/thisamericanlife.
或者您可以在 audible.com/thisamericanlife 下载我们的节目片段。
WBEZ management oversight for our program by Mr. Torey Malatia, who explains, no, no, no, he does not laugh like this.
Torey Malatia 先生对我们的项目进行 WBEZ 管理监督，他解释说，不，不，不，他不会这样笑。
[HIGH-PITCHED LAUGH] Ira Glass I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life .
[高声笑] Ira Glass 我是 Ira Glass，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
We won't be staying here.
我们不会留在这里。
It's far too foofy.
实在是太蠢了。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。