453: Nemeses - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #453 | December 16, 2011 453: Nemeses Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 453 集 | 2011 年 12 月 16 日 453：复仇者 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Peter Coleman runs an outfit called the International Center for Cooperation and Conflict Resolution at Columbia University, which means that he spends a lot of time thinking about disputes between people that seem unresolvable and what can be done in those situations.
序言 艾拉·格拉斯·彼得·科尔曼在哥伦比亚大学经营着一个名为“国际合作与冲突解决中心”的机构，这意味着他花了很多时间思考人与人之间看似无法解决的争端，以及在这些情况下可以做什么。
And he tells this story-- he wrote about this in a book, too-- about the abortion debate in Boston back in the 1990s.
他讲述了这个关于 20 世纪 90 年代波士顿堕胎辩论的故事，他也在书中写到了这一点。
Boston is a very Catholic city, of course.
当然，波士顿是一个非常天主教的城市。
You know, inflammatory rhetoric, really on both sides.
你知道，双方都有煽动性言论。
And then in 1994, there was a shooting that took place.
然后在1994年，发生了一起枪击事件。
John Salvi III went into two clinics in Brookline, Massachusetts.
约翰·萨尔维三世走进了马萨诸塞州布鲁克莱恩的两家诊所。
And he shot and killed two women.
他开枪打死了两名妇女。
And he took a rifle and put it to the head of one woman and shot and killed her, and said, that's what you get.
他拿起一支步枪，把它放在一个女人的头上，开枪打死了她，然后说，这就是你得到的。
You should pray the rosary more.
你应该多念玫瑰经。
I think the pro-life movement was ashamed and infuriated by what had happened.
我认为反堕胎运动对所发生的事情感到羞耻和愤怒。
I think the pro-choice movement was terrified and traumatized.
我认为支持堕胎运动受到了惊吓和创伤。
And so the governor, the archdiocese, called for dialogue.
因此，总教区总督呼吁进行对话。
Which is kind of a standard thing that people do after a tragedy like this.
这是人们在发生这样的悲剧后所做的标准事情。
The idea is if we just talk to each other better, people wouldn't be getting killed.
我们的想法是，如果我们更好地相互交谈，人们就不会被杀。
Let's have a dialogue.
我们来对话吧。
And in this case, the dialogue actually happened.
而在这种情况下，对话确实发生了。
Three leaders from the local pro-life movement agreed to meet with three leaders of the local pro-choice movement.
当地反堕胎运动的三名领导人同意与当地反堕胎运动的三名领导人会面。
And they agreed it all had to happen in secret because of just how sensitive the whole issue was, because how supporters on each side of the issue would see them meeting with people on the other side.
他们同意这一切都必须秘密进行，因为整个问题非常敏感，因为问题双方的支持者会如何看待他们与另一方的人会面。
They agreed to meet exactly four times.
他们同意正好见面四次。
So they brought these women together.
所以他们把这些女人聚集在一起。
And reportedly, the pro-life group had met in a Friendly's beforehand and prayed, because they really feared sitting down at the table with this other side.
据报道，反堕胎团体事先在朋友聚会上会面并祈祷，因为他们真的害怕与另一方坐在一起。
They really believed that just being near them could taint them, could affect them.
他们真的相信只要靠近他们就会污染他们，就会影响他们。
Because in their mind at the time, they were murderers.
因为在当时的他们心目中，他们就是杀人犯。
And to be with them not only was dangerous, but also could affect their reputations within their own communities, and could put their life at risk, given what had just happened.
与他们在一起不仅是危险的，而且可能会影响他们在自己社区中的声誉，并且考虑到刚刚发生的事情，可能会将他们的生命置于危险之中。
At first, the conversation was hard.
起初，谈话很困难。
Even though they agreed to some guidelines and how to have this conversation in a way that they felt would be constructive, it was hard to hold to those guidelines initially.
尽管他们同意一些指导方针以及如何以他们认为有建设性的方式进行这次对话，但最初很难坚持这些指导方针。
And you write about that, that there was a lot of finger pointing back and forth.
你写到，有很多人来回指责。
Everybody thought, we're not going to do any finger pointing.
每个人都认为，我们不会互相指责。
But in fact, they couldn't help themselves is what you write.
但事实上，你写的是他们无法自拔。
It's what they did.
这就是他们所做的。
It's what they had been doing.
这就是他们一直在做的事情。
They were used to doing it.
他们已经习惯这样做了。
They knew the talking points.
他们知道谈话要点。
And it was so hard to try to put those away.
想要把它们收起来真是太难了。
And because, basically, each side saw the other side as just--
因为，基本上，双方都认为对方只是——
These are precisely the conflicts that Peter Coleman studies.
这些正是彼得·科尔曼研究的冲突。
They're the conflicts where whatever the original dispute happened to be about, everybody has moved past that long ago.
在这些冲突中，无论最初的争议是关于什么的，每个人都早已过去了。
And things have snowballed.
事情就像滚雪球一样越滚越大。
And people started to organize their identities around the conflict.
人们开始围绕冲突组织自己的身份。
Coleman says that these happen in families.
科尔曼说这些发生在家庭中。
They happen in universities.
它们发生在大学里。
They happen in politics, of course.
当然，它们发生在政治中。
In looking at all the international disputes since 1816, there are researchers who've calculated that 5% of those disputes were these enduring conflicts.
纵观1816年以来的所有国际争端，有研究人员计算出，其中5%的争端是持久冲突。
They lasted, on average, 36 years.
他们平均持续了36年。
They accounted for half of all wars between nations, 3/4 of all civil wars.
它们占所有国家间战争的一半，占所有内战的 3/4。
Of course, the question is, what do we do about these conflicts?
当然，问题是，面对这些冲突我们该怎么办？
How do we resolve them?
我们如何解决它们？
Well, Peter Coleman says that two things can happen.
彼得·科尔曼说，有两件事可能发生。
First, sometimes a big disruptive event can come along and shake everything up.
首先，有时会发生重大破坏性事件并撼动一切。
Like the Arab Spring could conceivably end up nudging the dynamic of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.
就像阿拉伯之春可能最终会推动巴以冲突的动态一样。
And he says, second, sometimes it's just long-term changes lead each side to be more open to getting along and less open to violence.
他说，其次，有时只是长期的变化导致双方更加开放地相处，更少地接受暴力。
In Boston in the 1990s, after these abortion clinic murders, these women, over the course of their four meetings--
20 世纪 90 年代的波士顿，在发生这些堕胎诊所谋杀案之后，这些妇女在四次会面中——
They start to get some sense of the other person-- of the other group-- that's different from what they came in with.
他们开始对另一个人——另一个群体——有一些感觉，这与他们进来时的感觉有所不同。
They start to experience each other as women who are decent women.
她们开始将对方视为正派的女性。
And ultimately, they end up speaking in secret for six years, and really come to know each other and come to deeply respect and care for each other, one another, across the divide, all six of these women.
最终，她们秘密交谈了六年，真正相互了解，并跨越鸿沟，相互深深尊重和关心，这六位女性。
A decade later, when we checked with these women this past week, the three of them that we reached-- on both sides of the issue-- told us that the experience of these talks was life-changing for them.
十年后，当我们上周与这些女性进行核实时，我们接触到的三名女性——无论是问题的双方——都告诉我们，这些会谈的经历改变了她们的生活。
On NPR's All Things Considered back in 2003, one of them, Frances Hogan, told reporter Margot Adler about how she had been changed.
早在 2003 年，美国国家公共广播电台 (NPR) 的 All Things Thought 节目中，其中一位弗朗西斯·霍根 (Frances Hogan) 向记者玛戈特·阿德勒 (Margot Adler) 讲述了她的变化。
I could share a little anecdote-- two little anecdotes-- when, the day of the Salvi shootings, I was on one of the local television news channels with Nicki Nichols Gamble They had wanted a per--
我可以分享一件小轶事——两件小轶事——萨尔维枪击事件发生的那天，我和尼基·尼科尔斯·甘布尔一起在当地一个电视新闻频道上节目，他们想要一个——
We should say that's another one of the--
我们应该说这是另一个——
Another participant in the dialogue.
另一位参与对话的人。
And we had been called there to kind of-- I guess, as representatives of the pro-life and pro-choice positions.
我想，我们被召集到那里是为了代表反堕胎和支持堕胎立场。
However, before the show began, Nicki and I wound up in the same waiting room to go on television.
然而，在节目开始之前，尼基和我最终在同一个候诊室里上电视。
And she was there with her husband.
她和她丈夫一起在那里。
And I came in and sat down.
我进来坐下。
And I never said a word to her.
而我从来没有对她说过一句话。
I never got up and gave her a hug.
我没有站起来拥抱她。
I never got up and said I'm sorry about what has happened.
我从来没有站起来对发生的事情表示抱歉。
I said nothing.
我什么也没说。
Because I was-- it was like, we were in our assigned roles, sort of.
因为我——就好像，我们都在扮演分配给我们的角色。
And I deeply regretted that as a human being.
作为一个人，我对此深感遗憾。
I felt that was a failure of my own.
我觉得这是我自己的失败。
Later, after we began this dialogue, but while it was still secret, I ran into Nicki at a State House hearing.
后来，在我们开始对话之后，虽然这仍然是秘密，但我在州议会听证会上遇到了尼基。
I think it was a judiciary committee hearing.
我认为这是司法委员会听证会。
And there were a lot of people from both sides in the audience that day.
而且那天观众席上双方都有很多人。
And she walked by me and she tugged my sleeve, as if to say, you don't have to acknowledge that I'm here.
她从我身边走过，拉着我的袖子，好像在说，你不必承认我在这里。
But I'm just saying hi.
但我只是打个招呼。
So I turned around and did acknowledge her.
于是我转过身来，承认了她。
Because I said, I'm not going to have that failing twice.
因为我说过，我不会再经历两次失败。
And a couple of people had come up to me and said, you know Nicki Nichols Gamble?
有几个人走过来对我说，你知道尼基·尼科尔斯·甘布尔吗？
And I was able to say, actually, she's a very lovely person.
我可以说，实际上，她是一个非常可爱的人。
And it was shocking to some people, as it probably would have been to me before this all began.
这让一些人感到震惊，就像这一切开始之前的我一样。
So I said, you know, we're never going to move the issue forward if we don't talk about it in a civilized way publicly.
所以我说，你知道，如果我们不以文明的方式公开讨论这个问题，我们永远不会推动这个问题。
OK, so they're are all getting along so well.
好吧，所以他们相处得很好。
They have this amazing dialogue, the kind of thing, really, that seems to never, ever, usually happen.
他们有令人惊叹的对话，这种事情，真的，似乎从来没有发生过。
Did it nudge any of their views about abortion?
这是否触动了他们对堕胎的看法？
Well again, here's Peter Coleman.
彼得·科尔曼又来了。
To me, one of the more fascinating things about what happened is that, through these conversations, the relationships got thicker.
对我来说，所发生的事情中最令人着迷的事情之一是，通过这些对话，关系变得更加紧密。
The relationships got more nuanced and more caring.
关系变得更加微妙和更加关心。
And they became more polarized on the issue of pro-life, pro-choice.
他们在反堕胎、支持堕胎问题上变得更加两极分化。
It means that they became more certain that their point of view on the issue was right and that the other point of view on the issue, from the other side, was wrong.
这意味着他们更加确信自己在这个问题上的观点是正确的，而对方在这个问题上的观点是错误的。
One of the women, Madeline McComish, explained that this way.
其中一位名叫玛德琳·麦科米什的女性这样解释道。
She said, having to dig deep to explain your reasoning and why you believe what it is that you believe in a group like this, it forces you to crystallize your own views.
她说，必须深入挖掘来解释你的推理以及你为什么相信你对这样一个团体的信仰，这迫使你具体化你自己的观点。
And so, of course, you end up even more convinced about your side.
所以，当然，你最终会更加相信自己的立场。
And as a result of this, Peter Coleman says, where they ended up was--
彼得·科尔曼说，结果是——
Even though they cared deeply about these women, they differed fundamentally on this issue.
尽管他们非常关心这些女性，但他们在这个问题上存在根本分歧。
Well, from where we sit, it's a complete success.
嗯，从我们的角度来看，这是一次彻底的成功。
How?
如何？
Peter Coleman Because what did happen is that the rhetoric changed.
彼得·科尔曼：因为确实发生了言论变化。
The conversations that would happen publicly around abortion, around pro-life, pro-choice, lost a lot of the edge and the vitriol in the community that it had had prior to the shooting and prior to the dialogue process.
围绕堕胎、反堕胎、支持堕胎问题公开进行的对话，失去了枪击事件之前和对话过程之前社区中的很多优势和尖酸刻薄。
Because these women were leaders in those movements on both sides and--
因为这些女性都是双方运动的领导者，而且——
They consciously decided that part of what they had done is contribute to the conditions where an event like this could take place.
他们有意识地认为，他们所做的部分工作是为此类事件的发生创造了条件。
Empathy has its limits.
同理心有其局限性。
People are not going to agree.
人们不会同意。
And the best that we can hope for is, we'll just try to see each other as well-meaning people that we respect, and keep things from getting to the point where we are trying to out and out destroy each other.
我们所能希望的最好的结果就是，我们会尽力将彼此视为我们所尊重的善意的人，并防止事情发展到我们试图彻底摧毁对方的地步。
Well, today on our program, we have two stories which show just how difficult that is, how difficult it is to keep on the path of respect.
好吧，今天在我们的节目中，我们有两个故事表明这是多么困难，保持尊重的道路是多么困难。
In each of these stories, there is a pair of nemeses who get incredibly close to solving their problems, to actually getting along a little bit.
在每个故事中，都有一对宿敌非常接近解决他们的问题，并且真正相处得很好。
And then not only do they backtrack, they backtrack royally.
然后他们不仅后退了，而且是堂堂正正地后退了。
It is fascinating to see how far they go in the other direction and how they flip on a dime from one position to the other.
看到它们在另一个方向上走了多远以及它们如何从一个位置到另一个位置的瞬间翻转是很有趣的。
One of the two stories takes place in Eastern Europe.
这两个故事之一发生在东欧。
The other takes place in another land where the rivalries are ancient and heartfelt.
另一个发生在另一片土地上，那里的竞争是古老而真诚的。
I'm talking about suburban New Jersey.
我说的是新泽西州郊区。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life , distributed by Public Radio International.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act one, Solidarity For Never.
第一幕，永远团结。
Poland had one of those national events a few years ago that you would think would pull an entire country together.
几年前，波兰举办了一场全国性的活动，你可能会认为它会让整个国家团结起来。
It was a tragedy.
这是一场悲剧。
It was a plane accident in April 2010, where the Polish president, the first lady, the country's military leaders, dozens of officials and leading Polish writers and thinkers-- 96 six people-- all died when their plane crashed in Russia, killing everybody on board.
这是 2010 年 4 月发生的一次飞机事故，波兰总统、第一夫人、该国军事领导人、数十名官员以及波兰著名作家和思想家（96 人）在俄罗斯坠毁，机上所有人全部遇难。
And from the outside, this was this horrifying thing to witness people go through, any country go through.
从外部来看，目睹人们经历的、任何国家经历的事情都是可怕的。
But the more complicated thing was what happened inside Poland after the crash.
但更复杂的事情是坠机后波兰境内发生的事情。
Perhaps you've guessed where this is going.
也许你已经猜到这是怎么回事了。
It did not pull the country together.
它并没有让国家团结起来。
It emphatically did not do that.
它显然没有这样做。
Amy Drozdowska-McGuire is an American reporter who for the past several years has been living in Poland.
艾米·德罗兹多斯卡·麦奎尔 (Amy Drozdowska-McGuire) 是一名美国记者，过去几年一直住在波兰。
She has that story.
她有这样的故事。
To understand the incredibly odd things that happened after the crash, you have to understand that before the crash, Poland was a country divided.
要了解坠机事件后发生的极其奇怪的事情，你必须了解坠机事件之前，波兰是一个分裂的国家。
Split right in half.
直接分成两半。
You started to hear people talk about Poland A and Poland B.
你开始听到人们谈论波兰 A 和波兰 B。
Poland A is the wealthier half, less conservative and more educated, more urban and younger.
波兰 A 区是较富裕的一半，不那么保守，受教育程度较高，更加城市化且更年轻。
All for being part of the European Union.
一切都是为了成为欧盟的一部分。
Poland B is the eastern part of the country.
波兰B是该国的东部地区。
Deeply Catholic and conservative.
虔诚的天主教徒和保守派。
Older and poorer.
又老又穷。
The one suspicious of the EU and the influence of godless Western Europe.
对欧盟和无神论西欧的影响持怀疑态度的人。
Poland A sees Poland B as backwards.
波兰A认为波兰B落后。
Poland B feels like it's the real Poland.
波兰B感觉就像是真正的波兰。
And who are these snotty city people in their skinny jeans looking down on them?
而这些穿着紧身牛仔裤、瞧不起他们的流鼻涕的城里人又是谁呢？
The split between Poland A and B was also a political split.
波兰A和B之间的分裂也是政治分裂。
And the biggest wedge between the two halves was the late president, Lech Kaczynski.
两半之间最大的隔阂是已故总统莱赫·卡钦斯基(Lech Kaczynski)。
Half of the country, Poland A, passionately hated him.
半个国家，波兰A，都强烈地憎恨他。
[SPEAKING POLISH] Translator The potato, the midget.
[说波兰语] 翻译者 土豆，侏儒。
Napoleon, also, because of his height.
拿破仑也因为他的身高。
Psychopath.
精神病患者。
Schizophrenic.
精神分裂症。
This is Dominik Taras.
这是多米尼克·塔拉斯。
In this story, he's going to be the stand-in for Poland A.
在这个故事中，他将成为波兰A的替身。
He's young, early twenties, born and raised in Warsaw.
他很年轻，二十岁出头，在华沙出生和长大。
He's part of the Poland who couldn't stand Kaczynski, thought he was an international embarrassment.
作为波兰人，他无法忍受卡钦斯基，认为他是国际上的耻辱。
And so Poland A liked to embarrass him.
所以波兰A就喜欢让他难堪。
[SPEAKING POLISH] Translator Kazcka, or the duck.
[波兰语] 翻译者 Kazcka，或鸭子。
I mean, that's another name that we called him.
我的意思是，那是我们叫他的另一个名字。
That last nickname's a play on Kaczynski's surname.
最后一个昵称是卡钦斯基姓氏的一个变体。
Kazcka.
卡兹卡。
A duck.
一只鸭子。
Not a bird exactly befitting the figurehead of a nation that wants to be taken seriously.
这只鸟并不完全适合一个希望受到认真对待的国家的傀儡。
To Dominik and Poland A, Kaczynski was a blundering xenophobe, anti-EU, mired in the past and holding the country back from a future as part of the west.
对于多米尼克和波兰A来说，卡钦斯基是一个鲁莽的仇外者、反欧盟者，深陷过去的泥沼，阻碍了该国未来成为西方的一部分。
[SPEAKING POLISH] Amy Drozdowska-mcguire Speaking for the other half of Poland, that's Poland B, here's Ewa Stankiewicz.
[讲波兰语] Amy Drozdowska-mcguire 代表波兰的另一半，即波兰 B，这是 Ewa Stankiewicz。
She's a filmmaker and activist in her early forties.
她是一位四十出头的电影制片人和活动家。
Tall but slight, with this definite weariness about her.
个子很高，但身材瘦小，带着明显的疲倦。
She wears a necklace with a small delicate cross.
她戴着一条带有精致小十字架的项链。
And she didn't appreciate those Poland A types mocking and humiliating Kaczynski.
她也不欣赏那些波兰A类人嘲笑和羞辱卡钦斯基。
[SPEAKING POLISH] Translator They made fun of him as much as they could.
[说波兰语] 翻译 他们尽可能地取笑他。
They took his dignity away from him during his lifetime, but millions of Poles respected him.
他们在他生前剥夺了他的尊严，但数百万波兰人尊重他。
He was a statesman who was a great patriot.
他是一位政治家，也是一位伟大的爱国者。
For Poland B people like Ewa, Kaczynski was a hero.
对于埃瓦这样的波兰B族来说，卡钦斯基是英雄。
The defender of pure Polishness and national sovereignty in a time when EU integration was starting to threaten that.
在欧盟一体化开始威胁纯粹波兰性和国家主权的时代，他是纯粹波兰性和国家主权的捍卫者。
Kaczynski was their savior.
卡钦斯基是他们的救星。
Following the crash, it was as if the whole division between Poland A and Poland B just disappeared.
事故发生后，波兰A和波兰B之间的整个分歧就好像消失了。
You'd hear it everywhere.
你到处都会听到它。
On the street, on TV.
街上、电视上。
Slogans like, Let's Be One.
诸如“让我们成为一体”之类的口号。
Time to Stand Together.
是时候站在一起了。
And these were people from two Polands.
这些人来自两个波兰。
People who just days earlier would have told you themselves, they kind of hated each other.
就在几天前，人们自己也会告诉你，他们有点互相憎恨。
[SPEAKING POLISH] Translator I felt a unity between Poles.
[说波兰语] 翻译 我感受到了波兰人之间的团结。
A unity within the grief and the pain.
悲伤和痛苦的统一。
And that we were living through it together.
我们一起经历了这一切。
I felt a closeness between people.
我感受到了人与人之间的亲密。
And for the first time I felt-- I don't know how to call it-- but perhaps a feeling of patriotism.
我第一次感受到——我不知道如何称呼它——但也许是一种爱国主义的感觉。
[SPEAKING POLISH] Translator It really showed people how to be patriotic.
[说波兰语]翻译它确实向人们展示了如何爱国。
It was almost-- everyone came together.
几乎——每个人都聚集在一起。
I must admit, actually, it's the first time I've ever seen anything like this.
我必须承认，实际上，这是我第一次看到这样的事情。
For Dominik, the memory that sticks out the most from this time was the day the country sounded the air raid sirens, signaling the whole nation to stop everything and remember Kaczynski and the other crash victims.
对于多米尼克来说，这一次最难忘的记忆是全国拉响空袭警报的那一天，信号全国停止一切活动并纪念卡钦斯基和其他坠机受害者。
Remember, this is for the man half the country hated.
请记住，这是为半个国家所憎恨的人准备的。
Including Dominik.
包括多米尼克。
[SPEAKING POLISH] Translator It was absolutely everyone.
[说波兰语] 翻译 绝对是每个人。
Just everyone came to a standstill.
只是所有人都愣住了。
I was actually riding my scooter at the time.
当时我实际上正在骑踏板车。
So while all the cars around me-- while they were actually honking their horns in tune, or with the sirens at the same time-- I was there on my little scooter on the road.
因此，当我周围的所有汽车都在按响喇叭，或者同时鸣响警报时，我却骑着我的小踏板车在路上。
But I felt that I also had to honk my horn, even though it was a tiny scooter.
但我觉得我也必须按喇叭，即使它是一辆小型摩托车。
So it really wasn't a match for the cars.
所以它确实不适合汽车。
But I thought I had to do it.
但我想我必须这么做。
The grief that was reuniting Poland had a center, the presidential palace in Warsaw, sort of like the Polish White House.
波兰重新统一的悲痛有一个中心，那就是华沙的总统府，有点像波兰的白宫。
After the crash, people came there from all over the country, people from Poland A and Poland B.
事故发生后，来自全国各地的人们来到了那里，有来自波兰A和波兰B的人们。
And they held vigil outside the gates for hours at a time.
他们一次在门外守夜几个小时。
They brought flowers and candles and laid them on the sidewalk in front of the palace.
他们带来了鲜花和蜡烛，放在宫殿前的人行道上。
Pretty soon, they completely filled the street.
很快，街道就被他们占满了。
A few days after the plane crash, the Polish scouts-- they're like the Polish Boy Scouts-- added their own tribute to the sea of flowers and candles, a cross.
飞机失事几天后，波兰童子军——他们就像波兰童子军一样——在鲜花和蜡烛的海洋中添加了他们自己的敬意——一个十字架。
It was a simple structure, standing about 12 feet high, without color or any ornamentation, made by hand out of wood.
它结构简单，高约 12 英尺，没有颜色或任何装饰，是用木头手工制作的。
[SPEAKING POLISH] Translator Now in Polish culture, the cross has a history which is more than a thousand years old.
[说波兰语] 翻译 现在在波兰文化中，十字架已经有一千多年的历史了。
[SPEAKING POLISH] Translator Putting a cross there is actually quite a good idea.
[说波兰语] 译者 在那里打个十字实际上是个好主意。
You have to remember that the cross in our culture is very close to the nation.
你必须记住，在我们的文化中，十字架与国家非常接近。
It's close to our history.
这与我们的历史很接近。
The cross is our identity.
十字架是我们的身份。
It's our culture.
这是我们的文化。
Everyone from around was, we're going there.
周围的每个人都说，我们要去那里。
And it was kind of a duty of every Pole to do that.
这样做是每个波兰人的义务。
I mean, this man was our president, no matter which way you look at it.
我的意思是，无论你从哪个角度来看，这个人都是我们的总统。
So going there, putting your flowers or wreath down, lighting a candle, this is the way that it should have happened.
所以去那里，放下你的鲜花或花圈，点燃蜡烛，这就是它应该发生的方式。
Pretty soon, this 12-foot wooden cross became the centerpiece of the entire nation's grief.
很快，这个 12 英尺高的木制十字架就成为了全国哀悼的焦点。
You'd see the coverage of all the people there on that street, those huge crowds of mourners, and always in the center of the frame was the cross.
你会看到那条街上所有人的报道，那些大批的哀悼者，而画面的中心总是有十字架。
It didn't take too long, though-- just three days, in fact-- before all this unity started to crack.
然而，没过多久——事实上，仅仅三天——所有的团结就开始破裂。
It was like the end of a long family holiday dinner, when tensions finally start to flare, and the same old arguments come out.
这就像一场漫长的家庭假日晚餐结束时，紧张气氛终于开始爆发，同样的老争论又出现了。
Kaczynski's family had declared their wish that he be buried at Wawel Castle Cathedral in Krakow.
卡钦斯基的家人表示希望将他安葬在克拉科夫的瓦维尔城堡大教堂。
And the church gave its consent.
教会也同意了。
Wawel is kind of like the Polish Westminster, where the country's saints, kings, and national heroes are entombed.
瓦维尔有点像波兰的威斯敏斯特，埋葬着这个国家的圣人、国王和民族英雄。
[SPEAKING POLISH] Translator So with the Wawel, that's how it all started.
[说波兰语] 翻译 瓦维尔语就是这样开始的。
The moment when they announced that they were going to bury the presidential couple at the Wawel Cathedral, that's when Poles just kind of split up.
当他们宣布要把总统夫妇埋葬在瓦维尔大教堂的那一刻，波兰人就有点分裂了。
The [BLEEP] hit the fan.
[BLEEP] 击中了风扇。
That's when it all started.
那就是一切开始的时候。
To get why this caused such a huge uproar, why Dominik and the rest of Poland A freaked out about this, I have to underline that the kind of people buried at Wawel are the stuff of legends, like kings who slay dragons, saints who performed miracles.
为了弄清楚为什么这会引起如此巨大的骚动，为什么多米尼克和波兰其他人对此感到害怕，我必须强调，埋葬在瓦维尔的人都是传说中的人物，比如屠龙的国王，创造奇迹的圣人。
So imagine the reaction when they announced that President Kaczynski and his wife Maria would be buried at Wawel.
因此，想象一下当他们宣布卡钦斯基总统和他的妻子玛丽亚将被埋葬在瓦维尔时的反应。
It was like Poland A woke up and remembered, wait a minute.
就像波兰A醒来后想起来，等一下。
We can't stand Kaczynski.
我们无法忍受卡钦斯基。
[SPEAKING POLISH] Translator It was a joke.
[说波兰语] 翻译这是一个笑话。
I really couldn't believe it.
我真的不敢相信。
We all thought it was a joke.
我们都以为这是个玩笑。
I would have thought that Wawel, you know, a place which is holy for all Poles-- I mean, it's a symbol of Polish history-- It's holy.
我本以为瓦维尔，你知道，对所有波兰人来说都是神圣的地方——我的意思是，它是波兰历史的象征——它是神圣的。
It's untouchable.
这是不可触碰的。
I mean, we all thought that the Wawel's closed.
我的意思是，我们都以为瓦维尔已经关门了。
I mean, there's no more room to put any more people inside there, down in the catacombs.
我的意思是，地下墓穴已经没有足够的空间容纳更多的人了。
Suddenly, there's room for Kaczynski.
突然间，卡钦斯基有了空间。
So Kaczynski being buried in the Wawel, it's like he was rewriting the history books.
所以卡钦斯基被埋在瓦维尔，就像他正在改写历史书一样。
And it's just amazing to think that the decision of one man is able to ruin a thousand years of this heritage by deciding to bury Kaczynski there.
令人惊讶的是，一个人决定将卡钦斯基埋葬在那里，从而毁掉了这一千年的遗产。
In the end, on April 23, 13 days after the crash, the late president and his wife were laid to rest at Wawel.
最终，4月23日，也就是坠机事件发生13天后，已故总统和他的妻子被安葬在瓦维尔。
So Poland A lost that first round.
所以波兰A队第一轮就输了。
If the whole Wawel thing was a slap in the face of Poland A, the thing that set off Poland B was the election to replace Kaczynski.
如果说整个瓦维尔事件是打在波兰A队脸上的一记耳光，那么引爆波兰B队的就是取代卡钦斯基的选举。
In the election, Poland B's candidate was-- I'm not kidding you-- the late president's identical twin brother, Jaroslaw Kaczynski.
在选举中，波兰B队的候选人是——我不是在开玩笑——已故总统的同卵双胞胎兄弟雅罗斯瓦夫·卡钦斯基。
If you were with Poland B, you could vote for not just your beloved president's political heir, not just his flesh and blood brother, but a guy who looked exactly like him.
如果你支持波兰B，你不仅可以投票给你心爱的总统的政治继承人，不仅可以投票给他的亲兄弟，还可以投票给一个和他长得一模一样的人。
Even their own mother could never tell them apart.
就连他们自己的母亲也无法区分他们。
Poland A's choice was Bronislaw Komorowski, the former parliamentary speaker, the guy who had taken over as acting head of state after the plane crash.
波兰A选择的是前议长布罗尼斯瓦夫·科莫罗夫斯基，他在飞机失事后接任代理国家元首。
The race was nail-bitingly close.
比赛十分胶着。
But at the final count, Bronislaw Komorowski, Poland A's choice, won.
但在最后的计票中，波兰A队选择的布罗尼斯瓦夫·科莫罗夫斯基获胜。
For Poland A, this was like the restart the country needed to start moving on and get back to business.
对于波兰 A 来说，这就像该国需要重新启动才能继续前进并恢复正常运转。
But for Poland B, this was a huge blow.
但对于波兰B来说，这却是一个巨大的打击。
Not only was their hero dead.
他们的英雄不仅死了。
But now, they had lost the power too.
但现在，他们也失去了力量。
By the time of the election, for weeks on end, day and night, Poland B had been holding vigil at the cross.
到选举时，波兰B已连续几周日日夜夜在十字架前守夜。
Even after the funeral was long over, even after the period of national mourning had officially ended, the crowds at the presidential palace never stopped.
即使葬礼早已结束，即使全国哀悼期正式结束，总统府内的人群也从未停止过。
Week after week, the flowers and candles continued to fill the street and pile up around the wooden cross.
一周又一周，鲜花和蜡烛继续填满街道，并堆积在木制十字架周围。
And Ewa Stankiewicz was there from the start, nearly round the clock filming it all, talking with the people there.
埃娃·斯坦凯维奇从一开始就在那里，几乎昼夜不停地拍摄这一切，并与那里的人们交谈。
This is from her footage, which she has released as two films, Solidarity 2010 and The Cross .
这是她的镜头，她已将其作为两部电影发行：《团结 2010》和《十字架》。
[SPEAKING POLISH] Amy Drozdowska-mcguire Ewa filmed men and women standing out in the rain at 3:00 AM to keep the vigil going.
[波兰语] Amy Drozdowska-mcguire Ewa 于凌晨 3:00 拍摄了站在雨中的男女以继续守夜活动。
People with tears in their eyes, talking about their grief and loss.
人们眼里含着泪水，诉说着他们的悲伤和失落。
[SPEAKING POLISH] Amy Drozdowska-mcguire And then, after just a few days, things started to shift.
[波兰语] Amy Drozdowska-mcguire 然后，仅仅几天后，事情开始发生变化。
When you watch the interviews, you start to see this hint of something different in the faces of people.
当你观看采访时，你开始在人们的脸上看到一些不同的暗示。
That shift from composed sadness to something closer to fear, and an edge that starts to underline their voices.
从平静的悲伤转变为更接近恐惧的东西，并且开始强调他们声音的边缘。
There's this one word that starts coming up and keeps coming up.
有一个词开始出现并且不断出现。
Zamach, assassination.
扎马赫，暗杀。
People start bringing up the idea that the plane crash was no accident.
人们开始提出飞机失事并非意外的想法。
And the dark figure looming behind all this fear is Russia.
而隐藏在所有这些恐惧背后的黑暗人物就是俄罗斯。
They were behind all this.
他们是这一切的幕后黑手。
If anyone has reasons to not trust the Russians, Poland's got them.
如果有人有理由不信任俄罗斯人，波兰就有理由。
More than a century of war and brutal occupation by Russia.
一个多世纪的战争和俄罗斯的残酷占领。
Communism and the unrelenting paranoia of living in a police state.
共产主义和生活在警察国家的无情的偏执。
Those kinds of reasons.
诸如此类的原因。
For Poland A, though, this is history.
然而对于波兰A队来说，这已经成为历史。
And they're all about looking forward.
他们都是为了展望未来。
Whereas for Poland B, this is all very much alive.
而对于波兰 B 来说，这一切都充满活力。
For them, Russia is still a threat.
对于他们来说，俄罗斯仍然是一个威胁。
This is actually a huge part of why Poland B loves the late president Kaczynski.
这实际上是波兰B喜爱已故总统卡钦斯基的一个重要原因。
He was a hardliner when it came to Russia.
当谈到俄罗斯时，他是一个强硬派。
As a matter of fact, he wouldn't even speak with Russians, wouldn't be in the same room with them.
事实上，他甚至不会和俄罗斯人说话，不会和他们在同一个房间。
He was Poland B's anti-Russian hero.
他是波兰B的抗俄英雄。
And the new president, Poland A's Komorowski, was in league with the enemy.
而新任总统波兰A党的科莫罗夫斯基则与敌人勾结。
[SPEAKING POLISH] Translator They saw him as a kind of Russian envoy, a spy, someone who isn't worthy of becoming president of Poland, who actually has no moral right to become president of Poland.
[说波兰语]翻译 他们把他视为俄罗斯特使、间谍、不配成为波兰总统的人，实际上没有道义上的权利成为波兰总统。
At one point, Poland B people actually started spreading this weird rumor.
一时间，波兰B族居然开始传播这种奇怪的谣言。
That Komorowski wasn't a real Pole.
科莫罗夫斯基并不是真正的波兰人。
That actually, he was descended from a murdering Bolshevik grandfather who slit the throats of the real Komorowskis and usurped the family name.
事实上，他是一位谋杀布尔什维克祖父的后裔，他割断了真正的科莫罗夫斯基家族的喉咙并篡夺了家族的姓氏。
So the new president wasn't even Polish.
所以新总统甚至不是波兰人。
He was secretly Russian.
他秘密地是俄罗斯人。
And if that sounds nuts to you, that Russia would have killed the Polish president, here's how the facts lined up for the Poles.
如果你觉得俄罗斯会杀死波兰总统这听起来很疯狂，那么波兰人的事实是这样的。
The plane crash happened in Russia.
飞机失事发生在俄罗斯。
And even more than that, the plane full of all those Polish elite-- political leaders, financial heads, writers-- they were on their way to commemorate the massacre of another group of Polish elite in the Second World War.
更重要的是，这架飞机满载了所有波兰精英——政治领袖、金融首脑、作家——他们正在前往纪念第二次世界大战中另一批波兰精英被屠杀的途中。
More than 20,000 murdered in the woods.
超过20,000人在树林中被杀害。
And the whole thing covered up for decades.
整个事情被掩盖了几十年。
Also, remember the trauma of their history with Russia is very recent.
另外，请记住他们与俄罗斯的历史创伤是最近才发生的。
Moscow controlled Poland until 1989.
莫斯科一直控制着波兰直到 1989 年。
So this idea that the Russians were at it again seemed entirely plausible to lots of people.
因此，对于很多人来说，俄罗斯人再次发起攻击的想法似乎完全合理。
Even a Poland A guy like Dominik told me, sure, he thinks the plane crash was just an unfortunate accident.
即使是像多米尼克这样的波兰人也告诉我，当然，他认为飞机失事只是一场不幸的事故。
But listen, a lot of crazy stuff went down during communism.
但是听着，在共产主义时期，很多疯狂的东西都消失了。
It's a perfectly reasonable thing to think the Russians might be behind it.
认为俄罗斯可能是幕后黑手是完全合理的。
Though Poland B didn't stop with a few reasonable suspicions.
尽管波兰B并没有因为一些合理的怀疑而停止。
You started to hear elaborate conspiracy theories and secret plots to destroy the nation.
你开始听到精心策划的阴谋论和毁灭国家的秘密阴谋。
Like any group rallying around a cause, Poland B adopted a symbol, the cross.
与任何围绕一项事业团结起来的团体一样，波兰 B 采用了一个标志：十字架。
That simple wooden cross the Polish Boy Scouts put up had officially become the symbol of their country in crisis.
波兰童子军竖起的那个简单的木制十字架已正式成为他们处于危机中的国家的象征。
All their grief, all their fear, went into those wooden beams.
他们所有的悲伤，所有的恐惧，都融入了那些木梁中。
It was a bit like when the cross became the symbol of a free Poland during solidarity in the '80s.
这有点像八十年代团结时期十字架成为自由波兰的象征。
A symbol for the country's united fight against the communists.
全国团结抗共的象征。
This time, though, the Poland B people by the cross felt abandoned, turned on by their own countrymen.
然而这一次，波兰B族人却感到被自己的同胞抛弃了，感到被自己的同胞所激怒。
While Poland A, everybody else, was starting to feel uncomfortable, impatient.
而波兰A队和其他人则开始感到不舒服、不耐烦。
With Poland A and Poland B starting to go after each other again, things there in front of the cross were starting to get ugly.
随着波兰A和波兰B再次开始互相追逐，十字架前的情况开始变得难看。
Violence started happening, at first in small ways.
暴力开始发生，起初是小规模的。
Drunk young people would stumble out of the nearby bars in the area and mock the Poland B people praying by the cross.
醉酒的年轻人会跌跌撞撞地走出该地区附近的酒吧，嘲笑在十字架旁祈祷的波兰B族人。
They'd curse them out, or even physically attack them.
他们会咒骂他们，甚至对他们进行身体攻击。
[SPEAKING POLISH] Translator There was an example of a young man who kicked a woman.
[说波兰语] 翻译 有一个例子是一个年轻男子踢了一个女人。
I don't think she'd even been praying for a very long time, but a lot of passers by knelt down to pray as they passed.
我想她并没有祈祷很长时间，但路过的时候很多路人都跪下来祈祷。
And I think she was one of those.
我认为她就是其中之一。
There was another incident of a woman who was pushed.
还发生了一名妇女被推搡的事件。
And she fell.
她摔倒了。
And she nearly cracked open her head on the pavement.
她的头差点在人行道上撞破。
There were incidents of people putting out their cigarettes on the necks of people.
曾发生有人将香烟放在他人脖子上的事件。
Dominik and Poland A, though, saw this violence differently.
不过，多米尼克和波兰 A 对这种暴力行为有不同的看法。
The way he saw it, it was the cross people who were out of control.
在他看来，是那些脾气暴躁的人失控了。
They were embarrassing, hostile.
他们很尴尬，充满敌意。
And it was starting to seem like they were never going to leave.
他们似乎永远不会离开。
[SPEAKING POLISH] Translator I didn't want to go there.
[说波兰语] 翻译 我不想去那里。
I mean, the atmosphere was just too aggressive.
我的意思是，气氛太激烈了。
I mean, you would go there, and you would immediately be accused of being a spy or being sent by Moscow to be there or something.
我的意思是，你去了那里，你会立即被指控为间谍或被莫斯科派去那里或其他什么。
There was even an anecdote going around at that time about the cross, that even if Jesus had come for the cross, they would have said, what are you doing here, you Jew?
当时甚至流传着一个关于十字架的轶事，即使耶稣是为了十字架而来，他们也会说，你在这里做什么，你这个犹太人？
Get out of here.
离开这里。
You see, this is when Poland A started to feel like it was time, time for those hostile people to stop camping out in a public street day and night like they owned the place, to take down the giant cross standing in front of a secular government building.
你看，就在那时，波兰A开始觉得是时候了，那些敌对的人们停止在公共街道上日夜露营，就像他们拥有这个地方一样，是时候拆除世俗政府大楼前的巨大十字架了。
The plan to take away the cross was careful, diplomatic.
拆除十字架的计划是谨慎而圆滑的。
It would be done with the utmost respect.
我们将以最大的尊重来完成这件事。
It would be taken to a place of honor, the nearby Church of St. Anne.
它将被带到一个荣耀的地方，附近的圣安妮教堂。
The right people would be there to do the job-- Catholic priests, church leaders, and Polish Boy Scouts-- the very people who had put the cross there in the first place.
合适的人会在那里做这项工作——天主教神父、教会领袖和波兰童子军——正是这些人首先把十字架放在那里。
So with that plan in place, the day came to take down the cross.
有了这个计划，拆下十字架的日子就到了。
And on that day, all hell broke loose.
在那一天，一切都崩溃了。
Truckloads of police were there.
满载警察的卡车都在那里。
Thousands of protesters pushing against the barricades erected around the cross.
数千名抗议者推挤十字架周围竖起的路障。
They were chanting and holding signs that said, "If you're a Pole, then come with us," and "Komorowski, traitor of the state," and "It's our cross.
他们高呼口号，举着牌子，上面写着：“如果你是波兰人，那就跟我们走吧”、“科莫罗夫斯基，国家的叛徒”和“这是我们的十字架”。
It's our cross."
这是我们的十字架。”
At one point, a woman tied herself to the cross with rope and started shouting that the cross is a symbol of the 96 people who died in the catastrophe, that we won't let it be taken away.
有一次，一名妇女用绳子将自己绑在十字架上，并开始大喊，十字架象征着在这场灾难中丧生的96人，我们不会让它被夺走。
When the priests and scouts showed up, people started screaming at them.
当牧师和斥候出现时，人们开始对他们尖叫。
They chanted, defend the cross.
他们高呼，捍卫十字架。
And shouted at them, calling them "Judas, Judas" and "Gestapo." Keep in mind, these were the conservative, older, very Catholic people of Poland B shouting Judas at priests who were there to move a cross, calling them Nazis.
并对他们大喊大叫，称他们为“犹大，犹大”和“盖世太保”。请记住，这些人是波兰 B 的保守、年长、虔诚的天主教徒，他们对在那里移动十字架的牧师高喊“犹大”，称他们为纳粹分子。
[SPEAKING POLISH] Translator The key thing for me, which really got me angry, was the fact that they were offending scouts and priests.
[说波兰语] 翻译 对我来说，真正让我生气的关键是他们冒犯了童子军和牧师。
I mean, these are people for the public good.
我的意思是，这些人都是为了公共利益的人。
So why are these people being shouted at and slandered?
那么，这些人为何会受到谩骂和诽谤呢？
Only someone without a soul or a mind could do something like this.
只有没有灵魂、没有头脑的人才能做出这样的事。
You'd have to be, really, kind of an animal to be throwing such slanderous comments at these people who are only doing good for other people in the world.
你真的必须是一种动物才能对这些只为世界上其他人做好事的人发表如此诽谤性的评论。
[SPEAKING POLISH] Translator The scouts were totally disorientated.
[说波兰语] 译者 侦察兵完全迷失了方向。
They had tears in their eyes.
他们眼里含着泪水。
And the people started calling out to them and to the priests not to do it, not to take the cross away.
人们开始呼吁他们和牧师不要这样做，不要把十字架拿走。
And they asked the priests to start praying with them.
他们要求牧师开始和他们一起祈祷。
And the people started praying.
人们开始祈祷。
And the priests joined them in prayer.
祭司们也和他们一起祈祷。
Some people started pushing through the police barriers put up for the occasion.
一些人开始冲破警察为此设置的路障。
And police tried to push them back.
警察试图将他们推回去。
Then the police brought out the pepper spray and things got even more nuts.
然后警察拿出了胡椒喷雾，事情变得更加疯狂。
[SPEAKING POLISH] Translator You could see these granddads going at fisticuffs with the other people.
[说波兰语] 翻译 你可以看到这些爷爷和其他人打架。
You've got grandmothers, elderly women, beating people with their walking sticks, almost.
祖母、老年妇女几乎都用拐杖打人。
They broke through the barriers and they were rallying people to come and defend the cross.
他们冲破障碍，召集人们来捍卫十字架。
You know, come with us.
你知道，跟我们来吧。
Things got so out of control that, in the end, the government officials in charge of the operation had to call the whole thing off.
事情变得如此失控，最终负责这次行动的政府官员不得不取消整个行动。
The cross stayed put.
十字架留在原处。
It's not what happened that day they tried to take the cross that really surprised me, that shocked me into seeing a meanness within the country that I didn't think existed, was possible, that really brought out the very worst in people.
真正令我惊讶的并不是他们试图接受十字架那天发生的事情，而是让我震惊地看到这个国家内部存在着一种我认为不存在、不可能的卑鄙行为，真正暴露了人们最坏的一面。
It was what happened after.
这是后来发生的事情。
When Dominik Taras, pulling for Poland A, threw a party, a huge Facebook-led event attended by thousands.
当多米尼克·塔拉斯 (Dominik Taras) 为波兰 A 队效力时，举办了一场派对，这是一场由 Facebook 主导的大型活动，有数千人参加。
Those Poland A people who said to Poland B, if you're going to pull a protest like that, fine.
那些对波兰 B 说的波兰 A 人，如果你要进行这样的抗议，那好吧。
Then we're going to protest your protest.
那我们就抗议你的抗议。
It was the exact opposite of all this angry unyielding earnestness.
这与所有这些愤怒、不屈的真诚完全相反。
They dressed up as sumo wrestlers, put on Star Wars costumes, and danced there in the streets in front of the cross defenders.
他们打扮成相扑选手，穿上星球大战服装，在街头的十字卫士面前跳舞。
They tossed around a beach ball.
他们抛掷沙滩球。
They did the wave.
他们掀起了浪潮。
They blew bubbles and sang children's nursery rhymes.
他们吹泡泡，唱童谣。
They waved around signs like, "Take down the presidential palace.
他们挥舞着标语，比如“拆除总统府。
It's getting in the way of the cross."
它妨碍了十字架。”
But then it changed.
但后来情况发生了变化。
It stopped being so light-hearted.
它不再那么轻松了。
It felt more like one group mocking another's most sincere beliefs, their deepest fears.
这感觉更像是一个群体在嘲笑另一个群体最真诚的信念和最深的恐惧。
Like when I saw a bunch of Poland A people parading around a cross made out of beer cans and another person dressed up as a bishop in robes made out of toilet paper.
就像当我看到一群波兰人围绕着啤酒罐制成的十字架游行时，还有一个人穿着卫生纸制成的长袍，打扮成主教。
And then the duck came out.
然后鸭子就出来了。
[SPEAKING POLISH] Translator I mean, that was like, a cuddly toy in the shape of a duck, right?
[说波兰语] 翻译 我的意思是，那就像一个鸭子形状的可爱玩具，对吧？
A nice allusion to the surname of the Kaczynski brothers.
这是对卡钦斯基兄弟姓氏的一个很好的暗示。
[SPEAKING POLISH] Translator Kaczka, which means duck in Polish.
[说波兰语] 译者Kaczka，波兰语中鸭子的意思。
And this duck was tossed around like a football.
这只鸭子像足球一样被抛来抛去。
And ripped apart.
并被撕裂。
[SPEAKING POLISH] Translator It was quite emotional, I would say.
[说波兰语] 译者 我想说，这非常情绪化。
This duck was being kind of tossed around.
这只鸭子被扔来扔去。
And then suddenly someone grabbed it and ripped off a leg here and ripped off a leg there.
然后突然有人抓住它，这里撕下一条腿，那里撕下一条腿。
And by the end of it, the whole thing was in shreds and all the filling was up in the air.
到最后，整个东西都变成了碎片，所有的填充物都浮在空中。
Like all the feathers from the inside-- this kind of guts-- were floating around in the air.
就像里面所有的羽毛——这种内脏——都飘浮在空中。
[SPEAKING POLISH] Translator People were shouting, one more, one more.
[说波兰语] 翻译 人们大声喊叫，再一，再一。
Which meant that they were calling for the death of the second Kaczynski, his brother.
这意味着他们要求杀死他的兄弟第二代卡钦斯基。
Well, that's her interpretation of one more.
嗯，这就是她对另一种的解释。
Dominik saw it another way.
多米尼克却有另一种看法。
[SPEAKING POLISH] Translator Give us one more.
[说波兰语] 翻译 再给我们一份。
Give us one more.
再给我们一份。
And then, someone just threw another one in there.
然后，有人又扔了一个进去。
[SPEAKING POLISH] Translator It felt terrible to wish death onto someone.
[说波兰语] 翻译 希望某人死亡的感觉很糟糕。
It's not something I'd wish on my worst enemy.
我不希望我最大的敌人遇到这种事。
Let me just say here, I'm of Polish descent.
我只想说，我有波兰血统。
I've lived in Poland off and on for a few years now.
我断断续续地在波兰生活了几年。
And this is where I felt like, I didn't know this country anymore.
这就是我的感觉，我不再了解这个国家了。
For me, Poland's a tough love kind of place.
对我来说，波兰是一个充满爱的地方。
Grandmothers yelling at you to dress your kid more warmly.
祖母们对你大喊大叫，让你给你的孩子穿得更暖和一些。
Hard on itself.
对自己很难。
But deeply sincere.
但却是深切的真诚。
Decent.
体面的。
Where the local version of the TV show Big Brother never really took off because Poles thought it was mean in a way that made them uncomfortable.
当地版本的电视节目《老大哥》从未真正流行起来，因为波兰人认为这很卑鄙，让他们感到不舒服。
Their version of So You Think You Can Dance is You Can Dance .
他们的《舞林争霸》版本是《舞林争霸》。
It's like, in the end, they want to watch each other succeed.
就好像，最终，他们希望看到彼此成功。
Not tear each other down.
不互相拆毁。
And I always thought this Poland A, Poland B thing was an anomaly.
我一直认为波兰 A、波兰 B 的事情是反常的。
Something they'd all get over.
他们都会克服的一些事情。
Post-communist growing pains.
后共产主义成长的烦恼。
But it's just started to occur to me that maybe this is what post-communist means.
但我刚刚开始意识到，也许这就是后共产主义的含义。
This is democracy.
这就是民主。
They traded a common enemy and a common cause for a system that pits them against their fellow citizens and turns their own countrymen into their worst enemies.
他们用共同的敌人和共同的事业来换取一种让他们与同胞对抗、并将自己的同胞变成最大敌人的制度。
That whole thing about coming together after a tragedy, that tragedy brings people closer together, that it brings out their best?
悲剧发生后大家走到一起，悲剧让人们更加紧密地联系在一起，让他们发挥出最好的一面？
It can work the other way too.
反之亦然。
It can bring out the worst and drive people apart.
它可以带出最坏的一面，并使人们疏远。
Especially when it's your own country, your family.
尤其是当这是你自己的国家、你的家人时。
Your family, your own countrymen, they're the ones who have the real power to destroy you.
你的家人，你自己的同胞，他们才是真正有能力摧毁你的人。
Komorowski kept trying to come up with ideas to take down the cross, Offered compromises, all of which were shot down.
科莫罗夫斯基不断想出拆掉十字架的想法，提出了妥协方案，但都被否决了。
At one point, he tried a plaque, one that honored Lech Kaczynski and all the victims of the plane crash.
有一次，他尝试制作一块牌匾，纪念莱赫·卡钦斯基和所有空难遇难者。
They put it right on the outside front wall of the presidential palace.
他们把它放在总统府的外墙上。
The plaque itself even had a good-sized cross on it.
牌匾本身甚至有一个很大的十字架。
Defenders of the cross were not impressed.
十字架的捍卫者并没有留下深刻的印象。
A 71-year-old man threw a jar of his own feces at it.
一名71岁的男子向它扔了一罐自己的粪便。
In the end, the cross simply disappeared.
最后，十字架就消失了。
In the wee hours of a Thursday morning in late September, guards quietly and unceremoniously came to the cross, took it down, and carried it inside the palace, before anybody realized what was happening, before anyone could stop them.
九月下旬的一个周四凌晨，守卫们悄悄地、毫不客气地来到十字架前，把它取下来，并把它带进宫殿，在任何人意识到发生了什么事之前，在任何人都可以阻止他们之前。
A non-event.
一个非事件。
It's now finally at the Church of St. Anne, as originally planned.
现在终于按照原计划到达了圣安妮教堂。
The two sides have continued in small ways to keep up the fight.
双方继续以小规模的方式继续战斗。
Right where the cross stood at the palace, a group meets to pray every night at 9:00 PM.
就在宫殿十字架所在的地方，每天晚上 9:00 都有一群人聚集在一起祈祷。
Ewa Stankiewicz is often with them.
埃娃·斯坦凯维奇经常和他们在一起。
People are constantly leaving crosses.
人们不断地留下十字架。
The authorities take them away, but people just bring more.
当局拿走了它们，但人们却带来了更多。
Dominik told me there's even one on wheels that they pull around, bring out, hide, bring it out again.
多米尼克告诉我，甚至还有一个带轮子的，他们可以拉着、拿出来、隐藏起来、再拿出来。
To this empty space in front of a government building that people are still trying to fill.
政府大楼前的这个空地，人们仍在试图填补。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme, bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，我们每周的节目都会选择一个主题，为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's show, Nemeses, stories of seemingly intractable long-term conflicts.
今天的节目《复仇者》讲述了看似棘手的长期冲突的故事。
We've arrived at Act Two of our program.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two, A Tale of Two Jerseys.
第二幕，两件球衣的故事。
Chris Gethard was a freshman at Rutgers when this story took place, the story in which he discovered a nemesis he did not feel anything for at all, until suddenly he did feel something for, fiercely and fully.
当这个故事发生时，克里斯·格哈德还是罗格斯大学的一年级学生，在这个故事中，他发现了一个他根本没有任何感觉的宿敌，直到突然间，他有了某种强烈而充分的感觉。
Rutgers is the state school of New Jersey.
罗格斯大学是新泽西州的州立学校。
And Chris says that when he was there, back in 1998, it was, he says, kind of a low point for the university and for him.
克里斯说，1998 年他在那里的时候，他说，那对于大学和他来说都是一个低谷。
He says that they had started all kinds of construction projects to rebuild the campus, but, he says, they hadn't gotten very far.
他说，他们已经启动了各种建设项目来重建校园，但是，他们并没有取得多大进展。
And buildings seemed to be just falling apart.
建筑物似乎正在倒塌。
He says his classes were terrible.
他说他的课很糟糕。
It was hundreds of unmotivated kids in massive seminars.
数百名没有动力的孩子参加了大型研讨会。
He was miserable.
他很痛苦。
He takes it from here.
他从这里拿走它。
Rutgers during my stay was both overcrowded and filthy.
在我逗留期间，罗格斯大学既拥挤又肮脏。
I lived in this tiny dorm room with this Estonian nationalist known as the Russian bear.
我和一位被称为“俄罗斯熊”的爱沙尼亚民族主义者住在这个狭小的宿舍里。
And the view from our dorm was the Raritan River, which doesn't move.
从我们宿舍看到的景色是拉里坦河，它一动不动。
It's just like a streak of liquid malaria.
它就像一条液体疟疾。
The main reason I went there was because they didn't make me write an essay.
我去那里的主要原因是因为他们没有让我写论文。
And it just blew.
它就这样爆炸了。
It just was the worst.
这只是最糟糕的。
So I did what anybody who was a college freshman in 1998 would have done.
所以我做了任何 1998 年大学新生都会做的事情。
I sat on the internet all day.
我整天坐在互联网上。
Specifically, on the instant messenger program, where my name was Framsky.
具体来说，在即时通讯程序上，我的名字是弗拉姆斯基。
And I really liked having that outlet because I could ignore and not deal with real-life outside my dorm room.
我真的很喜欢有这个出口，因为我可以忽略也不处理宿舍外的现实生活。
And I could also control what people saw of me.
我还可以控制人们对我的看法。
I was doing anything and everything to avoid dealing with the reality of my actual existence.
我所做的一切都是为了避免面对我实际存在的现实。
IM was my lifeline.
即时通讯是我的生命线。
Framsky was all I had.
弗拉姆斯基是我的全部。
I was on Instant Messenger so much I would even IM with the kid who lived directly across the hall from me, a ridiculously tall half-Asian kid named Andy.
我经常使用即时通讯工具，甚至会和住在我对面的那个孩子发即时消息，他是一个高得离谱的混血儿，名叫安迪。
And he was the same way.
他也是一样。
I still remember, we would instant message each other about how we didn't have any friends.
我还记得，我们会互相发即时消息，说我们没有朋友。
I still, to this day, am like, why weren't he and I better friends?
直到今天，我仍然想，为什么他和我不是更好的朋友呢？
One day I'm online and get this message from this guy.
有一天，我上网并收到这个人发来的消息。
His name is Rob.
他的名字叫罗布。
He went to Princeton.
他去了普林斯顿。
He was a friend of some friends.
他是一些朋友的朋友。
I didn't really know him that well.
我其实不太了解他。
But he sends me this message.
但他给我发了这条消息。
It says, "Chris, watch out." And before I can ask why, over 30 messages from people I don't know pop up on my screen.
它说：“克里斯，小心。”还没等我问为什么，我的屏幕上就弹出了 30 多条来自我不认识的人的消息。
And all those people start flagging me, reporting me to the program as if I've done something wrong.
所有这些人都开始标记我，向该计划报告我，就好像我做错了什么一样。
And suddenly, I was kicked off the system.
突然间，我被踢出了系统。
Because if you used Instant Messenger back in the day, you'll remember, there weren't any rules.
因为如果您以前使用过即时通讯工具，您就会记得，当时并没有任何规则。
There was nothing written down that was like, you can't say or do the following.
没有写下任何类似“你不能说或做以下事情”的内容。
The way it worked was, if you were being a jerk, the person you were being a jerk to could warn you.
它的运作方式是，如果你是一个混蛋，你的混蛋对象可以警告你。
And if that happened enough times, the system assumed you actually were being a jerk.
如果这种情况发生足够多次，系统就会认为你实际上是个混蛋。
And it booted you.
它启动了你。
I was cut off immediately.
我立刻就被打断了。
And I was filled with rage.
我充满了愤怒。
I know it's stupid, but that was my breaking point.
我知道这很愚蠢，但这就是我的转折点。
I was just like, I'm done.
我当时就想，我已经完成了。
I just can't.
我就是不能。
So I called up that dude, Rob, and was like, "What was that?"
所以我打电话给那个家伙罗布，然后问：“那是什么？”
And he goes, "It's this kid.
他说：“就是这个孩子。
He lives on my floor here at Princeton.
他住在普林斯顿大学我的楼层。
He's been doing that to people the past few days.
过去几天他一直对人们这样做。
He calls it IM-bombing.
他称之为即时通讯轰炸。
He thinks it's really funny."
他认为这真的很有趣。”
And I'm like, "IM-bombing?
我就想，“即时通讯轰炸？
What the hell?"
到底是什么？”
And Rob says, "Yeah.
罗布说：“是的。
He got your name off my computer.
他从我的电脑上盗取了你的名字。
I didn't realize it until it was too late.
我没有意识到这一点，直到为时已晚。
Sorry.
抱歉。
I tried to give you a heads up."
我试图给你一个提示。”
And I go, "What's this kid's name?"
我问：“这个孩子叫什么名字？”
And Rob says, "He's a nice guy.
罗布说：“他是个好人。
His name is Amir."
他的名字叫阿米尔。”
"Yeah," he said.
“是的，”他说。
"So his name is Amir, right?"
“那么他的名字叫阿米尔，对吗？”
"Yeah," Rob said.
“是的，”罗布说。
"But he pronounces it Am-er."
“但他发音为Am-er。”
And I was like, "Tell me more about him."
我当时想，“告诉我更多关于他的事。”
And Rob says, "I don't know.
罗布说：“我不知道。
He's nice, man.
他很好，伙计。
He's from Toronto."
他来自多伦多。”
"From Toronto?" I said.
“从多伦多来的？”我说。
He's [BLEEP] dead.
他[哔]死了。
Not because I have anything against Canada, but I couldn't let someone from Canada come to Jersey, which is mine, and mess with me.
不是因为我有什么反对加拿大的事情，而是我不能让加拿大的人来到泽西岛，这是我的，来扰乱我。
I couldn't do that.
我做不到。
I couldn't allow that.
我不能允许这样的事情发生。
The fact that this guy went to Princeton, every Rutgers kid, every Jersey kid, he's going to hate him just a little bit.
事实上，这个家伙去了普林斯顿大学，每个罗格斯大学的孩子，每个泽西岛的孩子，他都会有点恨他。
He went to Princeton.
他去了普林斯顿。
I mean, we're natural enemies.
我的意思是，我们是天生的敌人。
"Rob, what's the name of your dorm?" I asked.
“罗布，你的宿舍叫什么名字？”我问。
Then, I took action.
然后，我就采取了行动。
I threw open my door and saw Andy sitting with his door open across the hall.
我打开门，看到安迪坐在门对面，门开着。
Andy was as depressed and crazy as I was.
安迪和我一样沮丧和疯狂。
Plus he had a car.
而且他还有车。
"Andy," I said, "want drive to Princeton and beat up some Princeton kid?"
“安迪，”我说，“想开车去普林斯顿殴打普林斯顿的某个孩子吗？”
"Yup," he answered, instantaneously and with surprisingly little emotion in his voice.
“是的，”他立即回答，声音里出人意料地毫无感情。
He didn't even look surprised.
他甚至看上去一点也不惊讶。
It was as if he'd been waiting all night for somebody to walk by and offer a midnight beating of a Princeton student.
就好像他整晚都在等待有人走过并在半夜殴打一名普林斯顿大学的学生。
We called our other friend, Jeff, who came running over.
我们打电话给另一个朋友杰夫，他跑了过来。
The three of us dressed in black from head to toe.
我们三个人从头到脚都是一身黑。
Black puffy jackets, black pants, black wool hats.
黑色蓬松夹克，黑色裤子，黑色羊毛帽子。
We jumped in Andy's car.
我们跳进安迪的车里。
And we were off.
我们就出发了。
"Whoa," I said, when we pulled up at Princeton's gates.
“哇哦，”当我们把车停在普林斯顿大学门口时，我说道。
"Yeah," Andy said.
“是的，”安迪说。
"It's beautiful."
“很美丽。”
Princeton was the complete opposite of Rutgers.
普林斯顿大学与罗格斯大学完全相反。
"It's so clean," Jeff said.
“太干净了，”杰夫说。
We were shocked that a school could be so grime-free.
我们很惊讶学校竟然如此没有污垢。
Princeton was clearly not the type of place where you got in without writing an essay.
普林斯顿显然不是那种不写论文就能进去的地方。
"We probably shouldn't have dressed in all black," Andy said.
“我们可能不应该穿全黑的衣服，”安迪说。
He was right.
他是对的。
Rocking wannabe paramilitary gear was not the best choice if we wanted to go unnoticed.
如果我们想不被人注意，摇摆想要成为准军事装备的人并不是最好的选择。
Then we realized Amir's dorm was at the opposite end of campus.
然后我们意识到阿米尔的宿舍在校园的另一端。
We sprinted, scared of being swept up like the state school trash we were.
我们全速奔跑，生怕像公立学校的垃圾一样被卷走。
Luckily for us, it was as if the Princeton-ites couldn't even see us.
对我们来说幸运的是，普林斯顿大学的人就好像看不到我们一样。
No one blinked.
没有人眨眼。
We had the same effect on them as Columbus's ships did on the Indians.
我们对他们的影响就像哥伦布的船只对印第安人的影响一样。
None.
没有任何。
They couldn't even fathom that we existed in their reality.
他们甚至无法理解我们存在于他们的现实中。
We made our way to the dorm and found we needed a magnetic swipe card to enter.
我们走进宿舍，发现需要磁力卡才能进入。
That surprised us.
这让我们很惊讶。
At Rutgers, anybody could just walk into any dorm at any time.
在罗格斯大学，任何人都可以随时走进任何宿舍。
We responded in the only way we could think of.
我们以我们能想到的唯一方式做出回应。
We tried to kick the door down.
我们试图把门踢开。
It wouldn't give.
它不会给。
Luckily for us, though, a young gentleman in a pair of khakis and loafers saw us in our frustration and walked up to us.
不过，对我们来说幸运的是，一位穿着卡其裤和休闲鞋的年轻绅士看到我们沮丧，并向我们走来。
"Need to get inside?" he asked, smiling.
“需要进去吗？”他微笑着问道。
He looked like an average turn of the 21st century preppy type, but his tone of voice was like Potsie or Dennis the Menace, something from a more innocent time.
他看起来像一个普通的 21 世纪预科生，但他的语气就像 Potsie 或 Dennis the Menace，来自更纯真的时代。
Clearly this Princeton student hadn't been crushed by the harsh realities of life like we had.
显然，这位普林斯顿大学的学生并没有像我们一样被严酷的生活现实压垮。
He swiped us right in.
他直接把我们带进去了。
When we had left for Princeton, we planned on scaring Amir good.
当我们动身前往普林斯顿时，我们计划好好吓唬一下阿米尔。
We didn't really think we were going to do any serious damage to him.
我们真的不认为我们会对他造成任何严重伤害。
But what we saw in the lobby of that immaculate, pristinely maintained dorm, changed a lot of things for us that night and, sadly, a lot of things for Amir.
但那天晚上，我们在那个完美无瑕、维护得一尘不染的宿舍大厅里看到的一切，改变了我们很多事情，可悲的是，也改变了阿米尔的很多事情。
Gathered in the middle of the dorm were a group of about 15 kids.
宿舍中央聚集了大约 15 个孩子。
Every single one of them was wearing sweaters or turtlenecks or both.
他们每个人都穿着毛衣或高领毛衣或两者兼而有之。
They were standing around the dorm's grand piano.
他们站在宿舍的三角钢琴周围。
Grand piano.
大钢琴。
And they were singing Christmas carols.
他们正在唱圣诞颂歌。
To drive from the banks of the muddy Raritan, from the 400-person classes, from the bug-infested living areas, from the knowledge that every day for the next four years was going to be a lackluster one to this, to Christmas carols, to the blind, unbothered, let's get together and belt out a good "Silent Night" world of Princeton pushed a button inside all three of us.
从泥泞的力登河岸，从400人的班级，从虫子出没的生活区，从知道接下来四年的每一天都将是平淡无奇的一天，到圣诞颂歌，到盲人，无忧无虑，让我们聚在一起，唱出普林斯顿美好的“平安夜”世界，按下了我们三个人内心的按钮。
Andy, Jeff, and I all froze, our seething resentment mixing with our collective self-loathing into a dangerously combustible mixture.
安迪、杰夫和我都僵住了，我们沸腾的怨恨与集体的自我厌恶混合成一种危险的易燃混合物。
This wasn't just cheesy.
这不仅仅是俗气的。
This wasn't just white bread in a way that would never survive at Rutgers.
这不仅仅是白面包，在罗格斯大学永远无法生存。
This was a call to war.
这是战争的号召。
We were three kids who existed in a place where we found it hard to feel good about anything.
我们三个孩子生活在一个很难对任何事情感觉良好的地方。
We were three kids who woke up every day a little ticked off about how things were going.
我们三个孩子每天醒来都会对事情的进展感到有点不安。
Most of all, we were three kids who spent so much time uncertain and angry, that we were scared about whether we were going to turn out OK.
最重要的是，我们三个孩子花了很多时间不确定和愤怒，我们担心自己是否会好起来。
And there's no way you sit around singing Christmas carols unless you feel fine about the world.
除非你对世界感觉良好，否则你不可能坐下来唱圣诞颂歌。
You have to be happy to sing a carol.
你必须高兴地唱颂歌。
I mean, sure.
我的意思是，当然。
We were spoiled college kids, too.
我们也是被宠坏的大学生。
But this?
但这？
This was taking things to an entirely different level.
这将事情提升到了一个完全不同的水平。
This was a fantasy world where there were very few problems.
这是一个奇幻的世界，几乎没有什么问题。
And inexplicably, it was sitting right in the middle of our state.
令人费解的是，它就位于我们州的中部。
Suddenly, without saying a word, all three of us knew.
突然间，我们三个人一言不发，都知道了。
We were going to do our damnedest to destroy this.
我们将竭尽全力摧毁它。
We made our way towards Rob and Amir's floor, heading up the stairwell where we were again thwarted by the presence of a heavy door sealed shut with a magnetic lock.
我们朝罗布和阿米尔所在的楼层走去，走上楼梯间，在那里我们再次被一扇用磁力锁密封的厚重门挡住了。
We banged on the door.
我们敲门。
And as each second ticked by, I realized what a bad idea it was to have come here.
随着每一秒的流逝，我意识到来到这里是一个多么糟糕的主意。
This is a bad idea, I thought to myself, that I am about to do.
我心里想，我要做的事情是个坏主意。
I mean, we were definitely going overboard.
我的意思是，我们确实做得太过分了。
We were definitely worked up.
我们确实很兴奋。
And it really wasn't fair to direct it all at one unsuspecting kid.
把这一切都针对一个毫无戒心的孩子确实不公平。
Just as we were coming to our senses, someone opened the door.
正当我们回过神来的时候，有人打开了门。
The kid was pudgy.
这孩子矮胖的。
His large eyes blinked behind his glasses.
他的大眼睛在眼镜后面眨着。
"Can I help you with something?" he asked.
“我可以帮你做点什么吗？”他问道。
"We're friends of Rob's," I mumbled, rocking back and forth on my feet.
“我们是罗布的朋友，”我咕哝道，双脚前后摇晃着。
"From Rutgers.
“来自罗格斯大学。
We called him.
我们打电话给他。
He told us we should wait for him until he gets back."
他告诉我们应该等他回来。”
He eyed me up and down.
他上下打量着我。
"Well, you can wait with me, I guess," he said, obviously bothered that he'd have to babysit us.
“好吧，我想你可以和我一起等，”他说，显然很担心他必须照顾我们。
He motioned for us to follow him down the hallway.
他示意我们跟着他穿过走廊。
And then, over his shoulder, he signed his own death warrant with three innocuous words.
然后，他越过肩膀，用三个无伤大雅的词签下了自己的死刑令。
"My name's Amir." To Amir, Framsky was just a made-up name on the computer screen of some dude he lived down the hall from.
“我叫阿米尔。”对阿米尔来说，弗拉姆斯基只是他住在隔壁的某个家伙的电脑屏幕上虚构的名字。
He didn't know Framsky went to Rutgers.
他不知道弗拉姆斯基去了罗格斯大学。
He didn't know how unhappy Framsky was with the way things were going for him.
他不知道弗拉姆斯基对他的现状有多不满。
He was not aware of Framsky's habit of overreacting to small things, of making them out to be symbolic of how his entire life was going.
他没有意识到弗拉姆斯基习惯对小事反应过度，并将它们视为他整个生活的象征。
Most importantly, he had no idea Framsky was the skinny weirdo dressed in black staring furiously at the back of his head right at that moment.
最重要的是，他并不知道弗拉姆斯基就是那个此刻正愤怒地盯着他后脑勺的瘦瘦怪人。
Amir almost seemed tragic to me then.
那时阿米尔对我来说几乎是一场悲剧。
Completely oblivious to the level of fear to which he was going to be introduced that night.
他完全没有意识到那天晚上他将面临的恐惧程度。
I started to feel bad.
我开始感觉很糟糕。
It was like standing on a hill watching an unsuspecting car about to get blindsided by a speeding truck.
这就像站在山上看着一辆毫无戒心的汽车被一辆超速行驶的卡车撞了个措手不及。
With those feelings rising, I knew that if I was going to bail, if I was going to forgive him and walk away, it would have to happen now.
随着这些感觉的升起，我知道如果我要保释，如果我要原谅他并走开，那现在就必须发生。
I followed him into his dorm.
我跟着他进了他的宿舍。
Without turning around, he said, there's some people drinking down the hall.
他没有转身就说，大厅里有人在喝酒。
I guess you can come.
我想你可以来。
When we got to the room in question, there were about 10 kids spread out with their backs to us, all laughing and drinking.
当我们到达那个房间时，大约有 10 个孩子背对着我们分散开来，笑着喝酒。
Amir announced us.
阿米尔宣布了我们的到来。
"Guys, these are Rob's friends from Rutgers."
“伙计们，这些是罗布在罗格斯大学的朋友。”
Without even turning around to look at us, one of the girls said, "Oh, I thought something smelled funny in here all of a sudden."
其中一个女孩甚至没有回头看我们一眼，说道：“哦，我突然觉得这里有什么味道怪怪的。”
She said it quickly.
她说得很快。
So quickly that it almost seemed planned.
速度如此之快，几乎像是计划好的一样。
Even more quickly than Andy had answered, yeah, he wanted to beat up a Princeton kid.
比安迪回答得更快，是的，他想殴打普林斯顿大学的一个孩子。
But while I had admired that kind of quickness in Andy, I was aghast when I encountered it in that dorm room.
虽然我很欣赏安迪的速度，但当我在宿舍里遇到这种速度时，我还是感到震惊。
Who behaves that way?
谁有这样的行为？
Were they sitting around all night waiting for some poor Rutgers kid to walk through the door just so they could get that killer dig out?
他们是不是整夜坐着等待罗格斯大学的某个可怜的孩子走进门，这样他们就可以挖出那个杀手？
These damn smart kids just knew how to think fast and articulate their thoughts.
这些该死的聪明孩子只知道如何快速思考并表达他们的想法。
Before the insult, the entire night could have taken a turn right there.
在侮辱之前，整个晚上都可能发生转折。
We could have sat and drank with those kids all night, burying our stereotypes of each other and uniting in the common bonding of being young and drunk.
我们本可以和那些孩子们坐在一起喝酒一整夜，埋葬我们对彼此的刻板印象，并在年轻和醉酒的共同纽带中团结起来。
Instead, we were insulted the second we walked into the room.
相反，我们一走进房间就受到了侮辱。
At this point, it wasn't just me who was angry.
这一刻，生气的不只是我一个人。
Andy and Jeff were mad as well.
安迪和杰夫也很生气。
They had entered that night as my backup on a silly adventure.
那天晚上，他们作为我的后援进入了一次愚蠢的冒险。
Now, they had witnessed college kids singing Christmas carols around their grand piano on a Friday night and had been insulted outright by a very smart, likely very rich, girl.
现在，他们目睹了大学生在周五晚上围着三角钢琴唱圣诞颂歌，并被一个非常聪明、可能非常富有的女孩公然侮辱。
Still, my feelings towards Amir were becoming confused.
尽管如此，我对阿米尔的感情却变得混乱起来。
I was angry about what he had done to me.
我对他对我所做的事感到愤怒。
But in a way, I also pitied him.
但从某种程度上来说，我也可怜他。
He had initially represented big bad Princeton in our minds.
他最初在我们心目中代表了普林斯顿大学的大坏蛋。
But I knew it wasn't right to take it all out on one guy.
但我知道把一切都发泄在一个人身上是不对的。
At the end of the day, I knew nothing about him.
到最后，我对他一无所知。
For all I know, he could have been the me of Princeton, the token sad kid.
据我所知，他可能就是普林斯顿大学的我，一个象征性的悲伤孩子。
Amir took us back into the hallway.
阿米尔带我们回到走廊。
We went down to the other end of the hall and followed him into his room.
我们走到大厅的另一端，跟着他走进他的房间。
It was huge.
它是巨大的。
At least three times the size of the space I shared with the Russian bear.
至少是我与俄罗斯熊共享空间的三倍。
"Why don't you guys have a seat on the floor?" he said.
“你们为什么不坐在地板上？”他说。
I watched as he sat in an expensive-looking leather office chair.
我看着他坐在一张看上去很昂贵的真皮办公椅上。
There were about six open chairs in his room, not to mention a small couch.
他的房间里大约有六张敞开的椅子，更不用说还有一张小沙发了。
But we had been invited to sit on the floor.
但我们被邀请坐在地板上。
I now knew everything I needed to know about Amir.
我现在知道了有关阿米尔的一切。
He was nothing like me.
他一点也不像我。
He was the type of person who thinks it's OK to tell a stranger to sit on the floor.
他是那种认为让陌生人坐在地板上是可以的人。
"Actually, Amir," I said, "I'm going to sit wherever I want."
“事实上，阿米尔，”我说，“我想坐哪儿就坐哪儿。”
His head dropped.
他的头垂了下来。
He slowly turned around.
他缓缓转过身。
He suddenly had the body language of someone who realized he was in some pretty deep [BLEEP], the type of deep [BLEEP] where you invite a stranger over, disrespect them before your peers, ridicule them in private, and then realize you know nothing about him.
他突然有了一种肢体语言，就像一个意识到自己陷入了某种相当深的[BLEEP]的人，这种深[BLEEP]的类型是你邀请一个陌生人过来，在同龄人面前不尊重他们，私下嘲笑他们，然后意识到你对他一无所知。
"I'm sorry," he squinted at me.
“对不起，”他眯着眼睛看着我。
"I never got your name."
“我一直不知道你的名字。”
I paused and locked eyes with him.
我停了下来，目光与他对视。
I took a deep breath.
我深吸了一口气。
All color drained from his pudgy face.
他矮胖的脸上失去了所有的血色。
And everything about him suddenly screamed, I want to be back in Toronto right now.
他的一切突然尖叫起来，我现在就想回到多伦多。
He tried to regain his composure.
他试图恢复镇静。
"And your friends?" he asked.
“你的朋友们呢？”他问道。
"What are their names?"
“他们叫什么名字？”
He sounded like he thought this was a game.
他的语气听起来好像他认为这是一场游戏。
But I wasn't playing a game.
但我不是在玩游戏。
I was lonely.
我很孤独。
I was socially depraved.
我在社会上是堕落的。
I was depressed and scared about my life.
我对自己的生活感到沮丧和恐惧。
I snapped.
我厉声说道。
"Their name is Framsky, too, mother[BLEEP]." I leaned in close to him.
“他们的名字也叫弗拉姆斯基，妈妈[BLEEP]。”我凑近他。
"Don't you ever [BLEEP] with me again."
“你永远不要再跟我一起[哔哔]”。
I don't even remember what I said next.
我什至不记得我接下来说了什么。
All I know is I was lashing out.
我只知道我当时正在猛烈抨击。
And it was working.
它正在发挥作用。
He was terrified.
他很害怕。
"You have to go," Amir said.
“你必须走，”阿米尔说。
"You have to go right now."
“你必须现在就走。”
I ignored him.
我没理他。
"Don't you ever [BLEEP] with me.
“你永远不要跟我一起[哔]。
You have no idea what it's like out there.
你不知道外面是什么样子。
You have no idea who I am."
你不知道我是谁。”
From the look in his eyes, I knew he was realizing that I was right.
从他的眼神中，我知道他意识到我是对的。
He didn't have any idea what it was like out there.
他根本不知道外面是什么样子。
He had as much of an idea of what my New Jersey was as I did his.
他对我的新泽西州的了解和我对他的新泽西州的了解一样多。
And that's when I spread out my arms, leaned in as close as I could get to his face, and said the toughest thing I've ever said in my life.
就在那时，我张开双臂，尽可能靠近他的脸，说出了我一生中说过的最艰难的话。
"I am in your house, Amir." I grinned.
“我在你家里，阿米尔。”我笑了。
"I'm in your [BLEEP] house, and there's nothing you can do about it."
“我在你的[BLEEP]房子里，你对此无能为力。”
He looked at me and the first tear trickled down his cheek.
他看着我，第一滴泪水从他的脸颊上流了下来。
I couldn't believe it.
我简直不敢相信。
Only at a place like Princeton could a guy who looks like me be the bully instead of the bullied.
只有在普林斯顿这样的地方，像我这样的人才能成为欺凌者，而不是被欺负者。
"You have to go right now," he said, taking a step towards me.
“你现在必须走，”他说，朝我走了一步。
"I am in your house," I repeated.
“我在你家里。”我重复道。
"Go, leave," he said, trying desperately to control his fear.
“走吧，离开。”他说，拼命地试图控制自己的恐惧。
He took one more step, and he pushed me.
他又迈出了一步，推了我一把。
"Framsky," I said, making eye contact with Jeff.
“弗拉姆斯基，”我说，并与杰夫进行了眼神交流。
"Lock the door."
“锁门。”
"We need to leave," Jeff answered.
“我们需要离开，”杰夫回答道。
I looked at him.
我看着他。
He was no longer angry.
他不再生气了。
He was scared.
他很害怕。
Of me.
我的。
Back at Rutgers, Andy and Jeff hung out in my room for the rest of the night.
回到罗格斯大学后，安迪和杰夫在我的房间里待了一整晚。
We assumed the police were going to arrive at any moment and that our gathering in one place was a polite way to make their job easier.
我们假设警察随时都会到达，我们聚集在一个地方是一种礼貌的方式，可以让他们的工作更轻松。
I don't know what I was more scared of, my impending arrest or the behavior I'd seen in myself that night.
我不知道我更害怕什么，是我即将被捕，还是那天晚上我在自己身上看到的行为。
I'd always been an angry kid, but, for the first time, I'd seen that anger lash outwards.
我一直是一个愤怒的孩子，但是，我第一次看到愤怒向外爆发。
I had almost brutalized a stranger.
我差点就虐待了一个陌生人。
Worst of all, I wasn't sure which I felt worse about, almost doing it or not doing it.
最糟糕的是，我不确定自己感觉更糟的是几乎要做还是没有做。
To our amazement, the police never called.
令我们惊讶的是，警察从未打来电话。
I'd like to say that seeing this side of myself changed me.
我想说的是，看到自己的这一面改变了我。
But over the next four years, I had another half dozen incidents like it, including three other guys who, in my head, became the enemy of everything I stood for and the night I initiated a high speed chase with a New Jersey state trooper.
但在接下来的四年里，我又发生了六起类似的事件，其中包括另外三个人，他们在我的脑海中成为了我所代表的一切的敌人，以及我与新泽西州警察进行高速追逐的那个晚上。
But finally, I got myself together.
但最终，我振作起来。
I just looked up Amir on Facebook and realized things worked out for us exactly the way they are supposed to for a kid from Rutgers and a guy from Princeton.
我刚刚在 Facebook 上查找了阿米尔，意识到我们的一切进展顺利，就像一个来自罗格斯大学的孩子和一个来自普林斯顿大学的人应该做的那样。
He's a banker in Europe.
他是欧洲的一名银行家。
And if the girl in his profile photo is his girlfriend, he has a hot girlfriend.
如果他个人资料照片中的女孩是他的女朋友，那么他就有一个性感的女朋友。
I live in an apartment with a roommate in Queens, arguably the fourth coolest borough in New York City.
我和室友住在皇后区的一套公寓里，皇后区可以说是纽约市第四酷的行政区。
And I'm still telling the story, about the 12-hour window when I was tough back in 1998.
我仍在讲述这个故事，关于 1998 年我处境艰难时的 12 小时窗口期。
Chris Gethard.
克里斯·格哈德.
That story is the title story of his new book, A Bad Idea I'm About To Do , which comes out in just a couple weeks, in January.
这个故事是他的新书《我要做的一个坏主意》的标题故事，该书几周后即在一月份出版。
Well, our program was produced today by Robyn Semien and myself with Alex Blumberg, Ben Calhoun, Sarah Koenig, Jonathan Menjivar, Lisa Pollak, Brian Reed, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
今天我们的节目由 Robyn Semien 和我本人以及 Alex Blumberg、Ben Calhoun、Sarah Koenig、Jonathan Menjivar、Lisa Pollak、Brian Reed、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 制作。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Seth Lind is our production manager.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的生产经理。
Emily Condon is our office manager.
艾米丽·康登 (Emily Condon) 是我们的办公室经理。
Production help from Miki Meek.
Miki Meek 提供制作帮助。
Scouting help from Elna Baker.
艾尔娜·贝克 (Elna Baker) 提供球探帮助。
Music help from Damien Graef from Rob Geddis.
音乐由 Rob Geddis 的 Damien Graef 提供帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, where you can listen to any of our shows for absolutely free and find links to our mobile apps for Android, iPhone, and iPad-- the iPhone and iPad apps, by the way, you can actually gift to a friend by clicking the little down arrow next to the app in the iTunes store.
[致谢] 在我们的网站上，您可以完全免费地收听我们的任何节目，并找到我们适用于 Android、iPhone 和 iPad 的移动应用程序的链接——iPhone 和 iPad 应用程序，顺便说一句，您实际上可以通过单击 iTunes 商店中该应用程序旁边的向下小箭头来向朋友赠送礼物。
The web address, thisamericanlife.org.
网址 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
WBEZ management oversight for our show by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia.
我们的老板 Torey Malatia 先生对我们的演出进行 WBEZ 管理监督。
He has such weird nicknames for our WBEZ colleague, Peter Sagal--
他给我们的 WBEZ 同事 Peter Sagal 起了一个很奇怪的昵称——
The potato, the midget, Napoleon, also, because of his height.
土豆、侏儒、拿破仑，也因为他的身高。
Psychopath, schizophrenic.
精神病患者、精神分裂症患者。
I don't know what he's talking about.
我不知道他在说什么。
I like Peter.
我喜欢彼得。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。