450: So Crazy It Just Might Work - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #450 | November 16, 2012 450: So Crazy It Just Might Work Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 450 集 | 2012 年 11 月 16 日 450：太疯狂了，它可能会起作用 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass OK.
序言 艾拉·格拉斯 好的。
First, a warning.
首先，警告。
I am going to talk about math.
我要谈谈数学。
Don't worry, it won't be bad.
别担心，不会很糟糕的。
1644, a monk named Marin Mersenne gets obsessed for a while with prime numbers.
1644 年，一位名叫马林·梅森 (Marin Mersenne) 的僧侣有一段时间对素数着迷。
You remember prime numbers?
你还记得素数吗？
They're like the atoms of math, indivisible.
它们就像数学的原子一样，不可分割。
They cannot be divided by any other number than themselves.
它们不能被除自身之外的任何其他数字整除。
So 3 is a prime number.
所以3是素数。
You can only divide it by 3.
您只能将其除以 3。
Versus 4, which you can divide by 2, and you can get 2.
与 4 相比，你可以除以 2，得到 2。
Remember?
还记得吗？
OK.
好的。
So Mersenne.
所以梅森。
So he had a formula that he thought could predict prime numbers, OK?
所以他有一个他认为可以预测素数的公式，好吗？
This is Paul Hoffman, who wrote about this in his book The Man Who Loved Only Numbers.
我是保罗·霍夫曼（Paul Hoffman），他在他的书《只爱数字的人》中写到了这一点。
He says that mathematicians had been searching for a formula like this to find prime numbers for nearly 2,000 years at that point.
他说，近 2000 年来，数学家们一直在寻找这样的公式来寻找素数。
Euclid, way, way back, 2,300 years ago, had proved that there's an infinite number of prime numbers.
早在 2,300 年前，欧几里得就已经证明了素数的数量是无限的。
But he gave no formula for how to find them.
但他没有给出如何找到它们的公式。
I mean, they're easy at small numbers.
我的意思是，他们在人数较少时很容易。
We can do the math in our head.
我们可以在心里算一下。
7's prime.
7的巅峰。
Nothing divides into it.
没有什么可以分成它。
11's prime.
11 的巅峰。
If I give you a really big number, now you're going to have to start calculating, OK?
如果我给你一个非常大的数字，现在你就必须开始计算，好吗？
So this monk came up with a formula.
于是这位和尚就想出了一个方子。
Mersenne creates this formula.
梅森创造了这个公式。
And he uses it to spit out prime numbers.
他用它来吐出素数。
And one of the prime numbers that he said that he discovered was-- and this is going to sound a little bit technical-- 2 raised to the 67th power-- that is, 2 times 2 times 2 times 2, 67 times-- minus 1.
他说他发现的素数之一是——这听起来有点技术性——2的67次方——也就是说，2乘2乘2乘2，67乘——负1。
And if that was confusing, all you need to know is this number of Mersenne's, 2 raised to the 67th minus 1, was famous among mathematicians.
如果这令人困惑，您只需知道这个梅森数（2 的 67 次减 1）在数学家中是著名的。
That's how his paper ended.
他的论文就这样结束了。
He said it was a prime number.
他说这是一个素数。
This is 1644.
这是1644年。
So 250 years later, we're into the 20th century.
250 年后，我们进入了 20 世纪。
I think it's 1903.
我认为是1903年。
And you have this mathematician that shows up at a mathematical conference--
这位数学家出现在数学会议上——
And who is this?
这是谁？
What is the conference?
会议是什么？
Where are we?
我们在哪里？
It's here in the United States.
它在美国。
His name is Frank Nelson Cole.
他的名字叫弗兰克·尼尔森·科尔。
And he gave his talk a very unassuming title.
他给演讲起了一个非常低调的标题。
He titled his talk "On the Factorization of Large Numbers." And he went to a blackboard.
他将演讲的标题定为“论大数的因式分解”。他走到黑板前。
And he wrote, 2 to the 67th minus 1--
他写道，2的第67次减1——
He just walks over to the blackboard and just, like--
他只是走到黑板前，然后，就像——
He writes that.
他这样写道。
And of course, everybody in the audience knows that that's the famous Mersenne prime.
当然，观众中的每个人都知道这就是著名的梅森素数。
And he writes, equals, and then he writes out a 21-digit number--
他写下，等于，然后写出一个 21 位数字——
Oh, in other words, when you take 2 and then multiply it by 2 67 times, and then subtract 1, that is this number, 21 digits long.
哦，也就是说，当你取2然后乘以2 67次，然后减去1，就是这个数，21位长。
OK.
好的。
Exactly, exactly.
完全正确。
Equals this number.
等于这个数。
Then he moved over to a blank piece of blackboard.
然后他走到一块空白的黑板上。
And he wrote down two numbers.
他写下了两个数字。
One is a nine-digit number, times a 12-digit number.
1 是一个 9 位数字乘以一个 12 位数字。
He writes those two numbers out.
他写下了这两个数字。
OK, so that's two numbers that were sitting there on the board, multiplication problem, and?
好的，这就是黑板上的两个数字，乘法问题，还有？
And then he did the multiplication, just like the way they taught us back in second grade to do it.
然后他做了乘法，就像他们二年级时教我们的那样。
7 times 1, he put down the 7.
7乘以1，他放下了7。
He went through the whole steps--
他经历了整个步骤——
Just long multiplication.
只是长乘法。
Does he say anything?
他有说什么吗？
Says not a word.
一言不发。
Everybody sits there silently.
每个人都静静地坐在那里。
Now, remember, the whole idea of a prime number is you should not be able to take two numbers, and then multiply them together and get a prime number as a result.
现在，请记住，素数的整个想法是您不应该能够将两个数字相乘，然后得到一个素数作为结果。
It's supposed to be indivisible.
应该是不可分割的。
If you multiplied two numbers together and you got this 21-digit number as a result, then that 21-digit number is not prime.
如果将两个数字相乘并得到这个 21 位数字，则该 21 位数字不是素数。
And if Mersenne thought it was prime-- which he did-- his formula supposedly spits out prime numbers, this one of them, then his formula, 250 years old, is just wrong.
如果梅森认为它是素数——他确实这么做了——他的公式据说会输出素数，其中这个，那么他已有 250 年历史的公式就是错误的。
So, picture it.
那么，想象一下。
There's Frank Nelson Cole at the blackboard, slowly doing long multiplication, these two huge numbers.
弗兰克·尼尔森·科尔在黑板上，慢慢地做着长乘法，这两个巨大的数字。
It takes a while.
这需要一段时间。
They're big numbers.
他们的数字很大。
It takes minutes, as this room full of mathematicians just watches him, lots of them, I'm sure, scrutinizing him for any math errors.
这需要几分钟的时间，因为这个房间里挤满了数学家，他们只是看着他，我敢肯定，他们中的很多人都在仔细检查他是否有任何数学错误。
He still has not said a word.
他仍然没有说一句话。
And then, he gets to his result.
然后，他得到了结果。
And indeed, it ends up being that 21-digit number.
事实上，它最终就是那个 21 位数字。
Now, the whole place erupts into applause.
此刻，全场爆发出热烈的掌声。
Legend has it, this is the first time at a math conference that people got up and applauded.
相传，这是数学会议上第一次有人起立鼓掌。
And he just returns to his seat without a word.
而他只是一言不发地回到座位上。
And then later, someone asked him, "How long did it actually take you to figure out that Mersenne was wrong, that indeed this number has two factors?" And he said that he spent three years of Sundays working on this.
后来，有人问他：“你实际上花了多长时间才发现梅森错了，这个数字确实有两个因数？”他说他花了三年的周日时间来研究这个问题。
Three years of Sundays.
三年的星期日。
Paul says these three years of Sundays were probably spent solving the problem by trying every possible solution-- dividing that huge number, 2 to the 67th power minus 1, by one number and then the next number and then the next.
保罗说，这三年的星期日可能是通过尝试每一种可能的解决方案来解决这个问题的——将那个巨大的数字，2的67次方负1，除以一个数字，然后是下一个数字，然后是下一个数字。
Three years of Sundays is 156 Sundays.
三年的星期日有 156 个星期日。
For 155 of them, Frank Nelson Cole failed.
弗兰克·尼尔森·科尔 (Frank Nelson Cole) 在其中 155 个项目中失败了。
Until finally, on the 156th Sunday, Frank Nelson Cole found a number that would divide it evenly, which, Paul says, is par for the course.
直到最后，在第 156 个星期日，弗兰克·纳尔逊·科尔 (Frank Nelson Cole) 找到了一个可以将其平分的数字，保罗说，这是理所当然的。
That's what science is about.
这就是科学的意义所在。
It's real people banging their heads against walls and years of false starts.
这是真实的人们用头撞墙和多年的错误开始。
That's the other thing.
那是另一回事。
We don't talk about the researcher who spent two years trying to find what this gene did and then gave up, or spent three years trying to find a planet outside the solar system and gave up, and someone else eventually did.
我们不会谈论那些花了两年时间试图找到这个基因的作用然后放弃的研究人员，或者花了三年时间试图找到太阳系外的行星然后放弃，而其他人最终却这样做了。
It's more a combination of insight and hard work, because--
它更多的是洞察力和努力的结合，因为——
Failure.
失败。
Paul Hoffman And failure.
保罗·霍夫曼 和失败。
Because people who think outside the box and achieve things outside the box often entertain a lot of wacky ideas that don't turn out to be true in the science world.
因为那些跳出框框思考并实现目标的人经常会产生许多古怪的想法，而这些想法在科学世界中并不成立。
Isaac Newton had lots of weird ideas.
艾萨克·牛顿有很多奇怪的想法。
Charles Darwin had weird ideas.
查尔斯·达尔文有一些奇怪的想法。
They happened to be right about what they're known for.
他们对于自己的出名恰好是正确的。
Isaac Newton got a little interested in ghosts and all sorts of occult stuff.
艾萨克·牛顿对鬼魂和各种神秘的东西有点感兴趣。
Wait, wait.
等等，等等。
And did he believe in ghosts, or did he just think, we gotta investigate this.
他是否相信有鬼魂，或者他只是认为，我们必须对此进行调查。
Maybe there's some data here.
也许这里有一些数据。
Wow.
哇。
Paul Hoffman So they're known for their out-of-the-box thinking on something that turns out to be true and is wonderful.
保罗·霍夫曼（Paul Hoffman）因此，他们以对一些被证明是真实且美妙的事情的创造性思维而闻名。
But they've also entertained a lot of other stuff.
但他们也娱乐了很多其他的东西。
Well, today on our radio program, we have two stories of people who face impossible-seeming situations.
好吧，今天在我们的广播节目中，我们有两个关于人们面临看似不可能的情况的故事。
And in each of those stories, it's like a bad action film.
每一个故事都像是一部糟糕的动作片。
These two people each decide that the stakes are high enough that their best shot is to try something crazy, so crazy it just might work.
这两个人都认为赌注足够高，他们最好的办法就是尝试一些疯狂的事情，疯狂到可能会起作用。
The first story is about a scientist.
第一个故事是关于一位科学家的。
The second story is about somebody employing this technique in his personal life, which is really something to see.
第二个故事是关于有人在他的个人生活中运用这种技术的，这确实值得一看。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life , distributed by Public Radio International.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I am hoping that all this sounds so crazy you just might stay with us.
我希望这一切听起来很疯狂，您可能会留在我们身边。
Act One, Mr. Holland's Opus.
第一幕，霍兰德先生的作品。
OK, true story.
好吧，真实的故事。
A guy goes to college on a music scholarship.
一个人靠音乐奖学金上大学。
And then afterwards, he ends up going into science.
之后，他最终进入了科学领域。
And he becomes a cancer researcher.
他成为一名癌症研究员。
His name is Jon Brody.
他的名字叫乔恩·布罗迪。
And 19 years after graduating, Jon is invited back to his old college to give a talk about his work.
毕业 19 年后，乔恩受邀回到他原来的大学，发表有关他工作的演讲。
And the speech he gives is mainly about how important it's been in his research to think outside the box, to use an overused phrase.
他的演讲主要是关于在他的研究中跳出框框思考、使用一个过度使用的短语的重要性。
To think outside the box, to be ready to turn away from what's familiar and try some new idea.
跳出框框思考，准备好摆脱熟悉的事物并尝试一些新的想法。
And then after his speech, Jon is approached by his old orchestra teacher, a guy named Anthony Holland.
演讲结束后，乔恩的老管弦乐队老师安东尼·霍兰德找到了他。
And Professor Holland, to Jon's great surprise, says, "Speaking of thinking outside the box, I've actually been working on an experiment for a few years that I'd like to show you.
令乔恩大吃一惊的是，霍兰德教授说道：“说到跳出框框思考，我实际上已经研究了几年的实验，我想向你们展示这个实验。
Come look at this video.
快来看看这个视频吧。
I think you'll find it very interesting." So what could Jon do?
我想你会发现这很有趣。”那么乔恩能做什么呢？
He'd just actually given a whole talk about keeping an open mind.
他实际上刚刚就保持开放的心态进行了完整的演讲。
What resulted from this was the kind of scientific collaboration that almost never, ever happens-- a serious cancer researcher teaming up with an amateur to try to make a breakthrough.
由此产生的结果是一种几乎从未发生过的科学合作——一位认真的癌症研究人员与一位业余爱好者合作，试图取得突破。
Gabriel Rhodes is a documentary filmmaker.
加布里埃尔·罗兹 (Gabriel Rhodes) 是一位纪录片制片人。
And he's been following the story from the beginning, back when Jon watched that video.
当乔恩观看该视频时，他从一开始就一直在关注这个故事。
Here's Gabriel.
这是加布里埃尔。
I've seen the video that Anthony, the orchestra teacher, showed Jon.
我看过管弦乐队老师安东尼给乔恩看的视频。
And it amazed me.
这让我很惊讶。
I saw single-cell organisms, basically round and oblong and pear-shaped blobs, swimming around under a microscope.
我看到单细胞生物体，基本上是圆形、椭圆形和梨形的斑点，在显微镜下游动。
Anthony narrates this as he goes along.
安东尼一边说一边叙述这一点。
And suddenly, the cells stop and just self-destruct.
突然间，细胞停止运转并自我毁灭。
Look what happened, just now.
看看刚才发生了什么。
He suddenly and dramatically disintegrated--
他突然戏剧性地崩溃了——
Some burst into tiny fragments.
有些破裂成小碎片。
And some look like a plastic bag that's been punctured, and their contents leak out.
有些看起来就像是一个被刺破的塑料袋，里面的东西就会漏出来。
As Anthony explained to Jon, the theory behind what he was doing was simple.
正如安东尼向乔恩解释的那样，他所做的事情背后的理论很简单。
You know how a singer, if they hit the right frequency, can shatter a crystal glass?
你知道歌手如果击中正确的频率，如何能打碎水晶玻璃吗？
Well, Anthony was basically doing the same thing, directing specific frequencies at microorganisms, like bacteria and protozoa, to try and shatter them.
好吧，安东尼基本上也在做同样的事情，将特定的频率指向细菌和原生动物等微生物，试图粉碎它们。
And after a year and a half of experimentation, suddenly, it worked.
经过一年半的实验，突然间，它奏效了。
So Anthony showed this to Jon.
所以安东尼把这个给乔恩看。
And he and Jon each remember the conversation that followed a little differently, in a way that says a lot about their later collaboration.
他和乔恩对接下来的对话的记忆都略有不同，这在某种程度上说明了他们后来的合作。
Anthony's version was entirely optimistic.
安东尼的说法完全是乐观的。
He immediately jumped right to the main thing that I was interested in.
他立即跳到了我感兴趣的主要内容上。
And he just said, "Do you think you can shatter cancer cells like that?"
他只是说：“你认为你能像那样粉碎癌细胞吗？”
And here's Jon.
这是乔恩。
Jonathan Brody You know, when I first heard about it, it's in the arena of UFOs, for sure.
乔纳森·布罗迪（Jonathan Brody）：你知道，当我第一次听说它时，肯定是在 UFO 领域。
He was putting words in my mouth already.
他已经把话放到我嘴里了。
He was saying things like, "Do you think this would work?" And I would say, "Well, it's a possibility, and I'm willing to try anything." And so Anthony would, in his voice, he would would say, "So you're saying that I could maybe cure cancer." And I was like, "Well, so could the oboe player downstairs."
他说的是“你认为这可行吗？”我会说，“嗯，这是有可能的，我愿意尝试任何事情。”所以安东尼会用他的声音说，“所以你是说我也许可以治愈癌症。”我当时想，“好吧，楼下的双簧管演奏者也可以。”
But Jon was willing to talk more, in part, because he's so frustrated with cancer research.
但乔恩愿意谈论更多，部分原因是他对癌症研究感到非常沮丧。
He thinks it's stalled.
他认为事情已经停滞了。
Lots of people going over the same familiar ideas, endlessly refining the same concepts, because the familiar is more likely to get funded.
很多人都会重复相同的熟悉的想法，不断地完善相同的概念，因为熟悉的更有可能获得资助。
I do think it's much like being out in Hollywood, where you might go out to Hollywood thinking that you're going to be Kafka.
我确实认为这很像在好莱坞，你可能会以为自己会成为卡夫卡。
And you might end up writing the worst, hackiest sitcom in the world, because you want to survive.
你最终可能会写出世界上最糟糕、最黑客的情景喜剧，因为你想生存。
So what happens in this country when the same thing happens with science?
那么，当科学领域发生同样的事情时，这个国家会发生什么呢？
I've known Jon Brody for 20 years.
我认识乔恩·布罗迪已有 20 年了。
He's a good friend of mine.
他是我的好朋友。
And before this encounter, Anthony was just a professor who drove him really hard, back when he went to college on a percussion scholarship.
在这次遭遇之前，安东尼只是一名教授，当他靠打击乐奖学金上大学时，他对他非常努力。
They weren't close or anything.
他们并不亲近或什么的。
But Jon definitely remembered Professor Holland as he'd always known him.
但乔恩肯定记得霍兰德教授，因为他一直认识他。
He probably wouldn't say this, but I sort of remember him as-- I think he was disappointed in me as a musician in the orchestra, because I remember him wanting to have, like, extra sessions with me.
他可能不会这么说，但我记得他——我认为他对我作为管弦乐队的音乐家感到失望，因为我记得他想和我进行额外的交流。
And I think when we had a guest composer come in, I hate to say it, I think he relegated me to playing the triangle.
我想当我们邀请一位客座作曲家进来时，我不想这么说，我认为他让我只能演奏三角钢琴。
And I'm not kidding.
我不是在开玩笑。
I seriously remember having to count, like, 67 bars to hit that one quarter note on the triangle.
我认真地记得必须数数，比如 67 个小节才能击中三角形上的四分之一音符。
So when Anthony came up to him after his speech, Jon was flattered that this teacher he'd always respected was interested in his work.
因此，当安东尼演讲结束后走向他时，乔恩很受宠若惊，因为这位他一直尊敬的老师对他的工作感兴趣。
They started emailing back and forth about Anthony's video and his experiments, until finally, Jon decided that he couldn't tell whether Anthony had something serious that could be researched unless he drove up to see him.
他们开始通过电子邮件来回发送有关安东尼的视频和他的实验的信息，直到最后，乔恩决定，除非他开车去看安东尼，否则他无法判断安东尼是否有一些可以研究的严肃内容。
So he went.
于是他就去了。
And he invited me along just as a fun road trip.
他邀请我一起参加一次有趣的公路旅行。
And why not film the conversation while I'm there?
为什么不把我在场时的谈话录下来呢？
Is there enough light?
光线充足吗？
I'm worried about the light.
我担心光线。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Gabriel Rhodes We're up as Skidmore College in Saratoga Springs, New York, where Anthony teaches.
Gabriel Rhodes 我们位于纽约州萨拉托加斯普林斯的斯基德莫尔学院，安东尼在那里任教。
Anthony's in his early '50s, but he's got a boyish vibe.
安东尼五十岁出头，但他有一种孩子气。
He bounces a little when he walks.
他走路时有点弹跳。
Full head of brown hair, goatee, glasses, corduroys.
全头棕色头发，山羊胡，眼镜，灯芯绒。
Your basic professor.
你的基础教授。
Jon's in his late '30s, balding but in that stylish, close-cropped way.
乔恩已经 30 多岁了，秃顶，但发型很时尚，剪得很短。
He stays in shape, even though he works like a maniac.
尽管他像疯子一样工作，但他仍然保持体形。
And over the course of their long conversation, Jon was surprised and impressed by how much Anthony knew, how much he'd read, how dogged he'd been in his experiments.
在他们漫长的谈话过程中，乔恩对安东尼了解之多、读了多少书、他在实验中的坚持感到惊讶和印象深刻。
And one thing in particular caught Jon's attention.
有件事特别引起了乔恩的注意。
In Anthony's experiments, particular frequencies seemed to target particular organisms and left others untouched, meaning there might be frequencies that could destroy cancer cells while leaving normal, healthy cells alone-- a potential solution, Jon said, to the biggest problem with most cancer treatments.
在安东尼的实验中，特定的频率似乎针对特定的生物体，而其他生物体不受影响，这意味着可能存在一些频率可以摧毁癌细胞，同时保留正常、健康的细胞——乔恩说，这是大多数癌症治疗中最大问题的潜在解决方案。
So if we can find a frequency specific to cancer cells, we could put someone in a room, and you hit that frequency, and it's not affecting normal cells.
因此，如果我们能找到癌细胞特有的频率，我们可以将某人放在一个房间里，然后你达到该频率，并且它不会影响正常细胞。
I mean, that's the actual perfect paradigm in which to treat someone for this disease.
我的意思是，这实际上是治疗这种疾病的完美范例。
Because what kills a patient is not the primary tumor.
因为杀死患者的并不是原发肿瘤。
It's the tumors that have left the site and gone off into neighborhoods that the surgeon can't take out.
肿瘤已经离开了该部位并进入了外科医生无法切除的社区。
So if you could walk into a room and you can get completely zapped, like a complete CAT scan--
因此，如果你走进一个房间，你就会被彻底电击，就像完整的 CAT 扫描一样——
Right.
对。
And it only hits the cancer.
而且它只针对癌症。
It doesn't hurt healthy cells.
它不会伤害健康细胞。
Yeah, that would be the--
是的，那就是——
Home run.
本垒打。
Anthony Holland That's the dream.
安东尼·霍兰德 这就是梦想。
Yeah.
是的。
Gabriel Rhodes That's the dream, because chemotherapy and radiation are so flawed.
加布里埃尔·罗兹（Gabriel Rhodes）：这就是梦想，因为化疗和放疗都有很大的缺陷。
Both devastate healthy cells.
两者都会破坏健康细胞。
Anthony's machine works by pulsing the cells with electromagnetic waves at specific frequencies.
安东尼的机器通过用特定频率的电磁波脉冲细胞来工作。
And there are other scientists out there - published in peer-reviewed journals - who are also using electromagnetic waves to attack cancer cells.
还有其他科学家在同行评审的期刊上发表文章，他们也在使用电磁波攻击癌细胞。
There's an FDA clinical trial going on right now using this method.
目前 FDA 正在进行一项使用这种方法的临床试验。
The whole field is still very new, just a handful of people - and Anthony's system is different from others - but using electromagnetic waves to target cancer cells isn't just a fantasy dreamed up by a music professor.
整个领域还很新，只有少数人——而且安东尼的系统与其他人不同——但利用电磁波来瞄准癌细胞并不只是音乐教授的幻想。
Then Jon asked Anthony how he'd gotten into these experiments in the first place.
然后乔恩问安东尼他最初是如何开始这些实验的。
I read an interesting book called Lost Science .
我读了一本有趣的书，名叫《失落的科学》。
And I'm very interested in hidden information, in secret stuff we're not supposed to know and things maybe that were known a long time ago or forgotten or something.
我对隐藏的信息非常感兴趣，对我们不应该知道的秘密的东西以及可能很久以前就知道的或被遗忘的东西之类的东西非常感兴趣。
And in that book-- now this is where it probably gets very kind of controversial-- but I read about a guy named Royal Raymond Rife.
在那本书中——现在这可能是很有争议的地方——但我读到了一个名叫皇家雷蒙德·莱夫的人。
And the book says that in the 1930s, he built an electromagnetic frequency device, a radio frequency device, which cured cancer.
而且书中说，在20世纪30年代，他制造了一种电磁频率装置，一种射频装置，治愈了癌症。
I got the device.
我拿到了设备。
I developed a special, custom-built frequency synthesis program, because that's what I teach, digital audio synthesis.
我开发了一个特殊的定制频率合成程序，因为这就是我所教的内容，数字音频合成。
And I've been studying sound and physics and acoustics for a long time.
我长期以来一直在研究声音、物理学和声学。
And I began to run frequencies through this device.
我开始通过这个设备运行频率。
Now, Royal Rife, for lots of people who have even heard of him, is a name synonymous with bogus cancer cures.
现在，对于许多甚至听说过他的人来说，Royal Rife 是一个假癌症疗法的代名词。
He was an inventor in the 1930s.
他是20世纪30年代的发明家。
And the legend is that he cured a bunch of people with cancer using an electromagnetic wave device before he was destroyed by a greedy, mainstream medical establishment.
传说他用电磁波装置治愈了一群癌症患者，然后被贪婪的主流医疗机构摧毁。
It's a staple of conspiracy theory websites.
它是阴谋论网站的主要内容。
Google him.
谷歌他。
He's everywhere.
他无处不在。
If Jon wanted out of the box, Anthony and the Rife machine were way outside.
如果乔恩想要走出禁区，安东尼和 Rife 机器就在外面。
And Jon and Anthony were just an unlikely pair.
乔恩和安东尼是一对不太可能的组合。
Jon was the head of his own lab by the age of 40.
乔恩在 40 岁时成为了自己实验室的负责人。
He gets hundreds of thousands of dollars from the National Institutes of Health and other very mainstream medical research organizations.
他从美国国立卫生研究院和其他非常主流的医学研究组织获得了数十万美元。
Anthony, meanwhile, is a composer, electronics whiz, a self-taught expert in several fields, and a deep skeptic of all things mainstream, especially in medicine.
与此同时，安东尼是一位作曲家、电子奇才、多个领域的自学成才的专家，并且对所有主流事物（尤其是医学领域）深表怀疑。
He pulled me aside more than once to warn me I'd better be careful, my life might be in danger.
他不止一次把我拉到一边警告我要小心，我可能有生命危险。
Because big pharmaceutical companies would try to hush up any story about a possible cancer treatment alternative.
因为大型制药公司会试图掩盖任何有关可能的癌症治疗替代方案的故事。
But they decided to work together.
但他们决定一起工作。
And it was just as much a personal decision as anything else.
这和其他事情一样都是个人决定。
Each of them saw something in the other.
他们每个人都在对方身上看到了一些东西。
They liked each other.
他们彼此喜欢。
And Jon thought, who cares where the electromagnetic wave theory came from?
乔恩想，谁在乎电磁波理论从何而来呢？
It's a potentially game-changing treatment.
这是一种可能改变游戏规则的治疗方法。
Why not at least test it?
为什么不至少测试一下呢？
So he invited Anthony to come down to his lab in Philadelphia with the device.
因此，他邀请安东尼带着该设备来到他位于费城的实验室。
And they agreed to keep everything as low stakes as possible, half-serious, half a lark.
他们同意让一切都尽可能降低风险，半严肃，半开玩笑。
Anthony would come for only two weeks.
安东尼只来了两周。
And they'd see what happened.
他们会看到发生了什么。
This is the miracle amplifier, the secret weapon.
这就是奇迹放大器，秘密武器。
Anthony is in a room at Jon's lab at Thomas Jefferson University in Philadelphia, unpacking his equipment.
安东尼在费城托马斯杰斐逊大学乔恩实验室的一个房间里拆开他的设备。
And the plan for the next two weeks is that Anthony will work at night after everyone else leaves, so he isn't taking time or space away from other experiments.
接下来两周的计划是，安东尼将在其他人离开后在晚上工作，因此他不会占用其他实验的时间或空间。
And he has to pay his own way.
而且他必须自己付钱。
No tax dollars or grant money will be spent on this.
不会为此花费任何税款或补助金。
Jon will supervise.
乔恩将监督。
So here Anthony is, surrounded by amplifiers, cables, all sorts of equipment, none of which is in special cases or anything.
所以安东尼在这里，周围都是放大器、电缆和各种设备，没有一个是特殊情况或任何东西。
It's all coming out of luggage, wrapped in bubble wrap, and into this room where they do molecular cloning.
这些东西都是从行李中拿出来的，用泡沫包装纸包裹着，然后进入他们进行分子克隆的房间。
It's got microscopes, a big medical-grade incubator, a special sterile area called the Tissue Culture Hood.
它有显微镜、一个大型医用级培养箱、一个称为组织培养罩的特殊无菌区域。
It's high-tech.
这是高科技。
Jon's watching Anthony assembling his gear.
乔恩正在看着安东尼组装他的装备。
It looks like you literally made this in your garage.
看起来这个真的是你在车库里做的。
Jon said, "It looks like you literally made this in your garage." To me, the setup looks like it was designed by Dr. Seuss for some sci-fi movie in the '60s.
乔恩说：“看起来这个真的是你在车库里做的。”对我来说，这个设置看起来像是苏斯博士为 60 年代的科幻电影设计的。
There's some high-tech gear, like a big, glass, helium-filled tube with electrodes that glows pink when it's turned on, and then this whole mess of consumer electronics.
有一些高科技装备，比如一个充满氦气的玻璃大管，上面有电极，打开时会发出粉红色的光，然后还有一堆乱七八糟的消费电子产品。
This is a power supply that came from an electronics house in Cleveland.
这是来自克利夫兰一家电子公司的电源。
And then this little 100-watt magical amp I picked up from some company that sells CB radios to truckers or something on the internet.
然后这个小型 100 瓦神奇放大器是我从一家向卡车司机或互联网上销售 CB 收音机的公司买来的。
There's also two laptops.
还有两台笔记本电脑。
And on one, Anthony's written a program that generates frequencies to send into the device.
其中，安东尼编写了一个程序，可以生成发送到设备的频率。
It sounds like this--
听起来是这样的——
[BEEP] Anthony Holland It's not a really fabulous sound.
[BEEP] Anthony Holland 这并不是一个美妙的声音。
It's kind of ugly and annoying.
这有点丑陋和烦人。
Yeah.
是的。
And then a transmitter transposes the frequencies way up out of the audible range.
然后发射机将频率调高到可听范围之外。
And then, what we'll do is we'll set the cancer cells right here.
然后，我们要做的就是将癌细胞放置在这里。
And with any luck, if we get the right frequency, the cancer cells may in fact start dying.
运气好的话，如果我们获得正确的频率，癌细胞实际上可能会开始死亡。
For the next two weeks, Anthony works all night, every night, running experiments, taking cancer cells that have been prepared for him out of the incubator.
接下来的两周，安东尼每天晚上都通宵工作，进行实验，将为他准备好的癌细胞从培养箱中取出。
And he pulses the cells with frequencies for hours, trying one frequency after another.
他用频率对细胞进行脉冲数小时，尝试一个又一个频率。
Jon checks in on the experiments every day.
乔恩每天都会检查实验。
There's a lot of trial and error and problems.
有很多尝试、错误和问题。
Some of the equipment blows out and has to be replaced.
一些设备坏了，必须更换。
And Jon and Anthony aren't sure what they've got until Anthony's last day, when Jon comes to look at the latest experiments.
乔恩和安东尼不确定他们得到了什么，直到安东尼的最后一天，乔恩来看最新的实验。
Let's see.
让我们来看看。
They're going to be labeled 720.
它们将被标记为 720。
They're sitting in front of a microscope, looking down at pancreatic cancer cells.
他们坐在显微镜前，俯视胰腺癌细胞。
The cells are in what looks like a tiny plastic egg carton.
这些细胞装在一个看起来像小塑料鸡蛋盒的东西里。
Jon looks down into the microscope, and he starts to get excited.
乔恩低头看着显微镜，他开始变得兴奋。
A huge percentage of the pancreatic cells that Anthony pulsed with his device are dead.
安东尼用他的装置脉冲的胰腺细胞中有很大一部分已经死亡。
They combined the pulsing with a tiny bit of chemo.
他们将脉冲与少量化疗结合起来。
And of the cancer cells that Anthony pulsed, only 10% are still alive.
安东尼脉冲的癌细胞中，只有 10% 仍然存活。
A separate group of cells that he did not pulse has 60% alive.
他没有脉冲的另一组细胞有 60% 存活。
And this comparison is the key to the whole thing.
而这种比较是整个事情的关键。
In any experiment, you have the cells that you treat and the ones that you don't treat, which are called the control group.
在任何实验中，都会有经过处理的细胞和未经处理的细胞，这些细胞称为对照组。
Comparing the treated cells to the control is the only way you can tell if something's working.
将处理过的细胞与对照细胞进行比较是判断某些东西是否有效的唯一方法。
Again, here, only 10% of the pulsed cells survived, versus 60% of the control cells.
同样，这里只有 10% 的脉冲细胞存活，而对照细胞则为 60%。
It's a dramatic result.
这是一个戏剧性的结果。
And Jon gives everything to the lab tech Christina to count up the cells in a precise way, do the quantitative analysis.
乔恩（Jon）将一切交给实验室技术人员克里斯蒂娜（Christina），以精确的方式计数细胞，进行定量分析。
I mean, when she quantitates these, we're going to have a beautiful graph.
我的意思是，当她对这些进行定量时，我们将得到一个漂亮的图表。
Really?
真的吗？
Jonathan Brody Yeah.
乔纳森·布罗迪 是的。
I mean, a beautiful graph.
我的意思是，一个漂亮的图表。
A beautiful graph.
一个漂亮的图表。
That's code for Jon is thrilled.
这是令乔恩兴奋不已的代码。
Pancreatic cancer is his specialty.
胰腺癌是他的专长。
And it's practically invincible, harder to kill than other cancers.
而且它几乎是无敌的，比其他癌症更难杀死。
So tough that even chemo, which is poison, often barely works at all.
如此艰难，以至于即使是有毒的化疗也常常几乎不起作用。
Over the last 25 years, the biggest treatment breakthrough only added about four months to a patient's life.
过去 25 年里，最大的治疗突破仅使患者的生命延长了约四个月。
Jon starts going through his mental checklist of potential problems with the experiment.
乔恩开始在心里检查实验中潜在问题的清单。
This is what he does when he's excited about new results.
当他对新结果感到兴奋时，他就会这么做。
And he checks with Anthony about the controls.
他向安东尼询问了控制装置的情况。
That's all you did to these things.
这就是你对这些事情所做的一切。
And you took these out of the incubator, the others, out?
你把这些从培养箱里拿出来，其他的也拿出来？
The controls did you take out?
控件你拔出来了吗？
No. The controls I left in the incubator.
不，我留在培养箱里的对照品。
I know I probably should take them out for the six or seven hours that I'm treating them.
我知道我可能应该带他们出去治疗六七个小时。
But, um--
但是，嗯——
Yeah, I thought you were doing that.
是的，我以为你会这么做。
That's why, that first day, I was asking you to do that.
这就是为什么第一天我就要求你这么做。
Right.
正确的。
Gabriel Rhodes Jon's expression doesn't change much.
加百列·罗德乔恩的表情没有太大变化。
But the experiment is now a wash.
但现在这个实验已经结束了。
The cells that Anthony was pulsing sat outside the incubator for hours at a time while he was pulsing them.
当安东尼进行脉冲处理时，这些细胞会在培养箱外放置几个小时。
Therefore, the control plates also had to sit outside the incubator for the exact same amount of time.
因此，对照板也必须在培养箱外放置完全相同的时间。
Otherwise, they don't count as controls.
否则，它们不算作对照。
It was an amateur's mistake.
这是一个业余爱好者的错误。
And of course, Anthony is an amateur.
当然，安东尼是一名业余爱好者。
But getting the controls exactly right turns out to be one of the hardest parts of any experiment.
但事实证明，获得完全正确的控制是任何实验中最困难的部分之一。
So even though Anthony's two weeks are up-- he has to leave today-- they've got to do the experiments again.
因此，尽管安东尼的两周时间已经结束——他今天必须离开——但他们还必须再次进行实验。
The first chance Anthony has to go back to Jon's lab is six months later.
安东尼第一次有机会回到乔恩的实验室是在六个月后。
It's a whole day's drive.
这是一整天的车程。
He's on a sabbatical, so he can be here for five weeks this time.
他正在休假，所以这次他可以在这里待五个星期。
I visit him about three weeks in.
大约三周后我拜访了他。
You ask me how it's going.
你问我进展如何。
It's like the Tale of Two Cities.
就像《两座城市的故事》一样。
It's going really great on one hand, and it's going really badly on the other hand.
一方面进展非常好，另一方面又进展得很糟糕。
It's going really great because we have absolute proof-- and we'll see what Jon says later today when we see him.
这真的很棒，因为我们有绝对的证据——今天晚些时候，当我们见到乔恩时，我们就会看到他会说什么。
But we're blowing cancer cells away.
但我们正在吹走癌细胞。
This is how Anthony sees it, because night after night, he's watching cancer cells die and taking thousands of time-lapse photos and videos as it happens, like the video that he first showed Jon.
这就是安东尼的看法，因为夜复一夜，他看着癌细胞死亡，并在死亡过程中拍摄数千张延时照片和视频，就像他第一次给乔恩看的视频一样。
The problem is, these photos are not absolute proof at all, not to any scientist, not to Jon.
问题是，这些照片根本不是绝对的证据，对任何科学家来说都不是，对乔恩来说也不是。
Cancer cells die for all kinds of reasons.
癌细胞会因各种原因而死亡。
Absolute proof means only one thing-- counting the cells in the experiments, the treated ones and the control groups, and comparing them.
绝对证据只意味着一件事——对实验中的细胞、处理组和对照组的细胞进行计数，并对它们进行比较。
So while Anthony might think they have proof, Jon would never say that.
因此，虽然安东尼可能认为他们有证据，但乔恩永远不会这么说。
In these last three weeks, Anthony's had a series of setbacks.
在过去的三周里，安东尼遭遇了一系列的挫折。
Basically, the photos are all he's got from a bunch of experiments that had to be thrown out.
基本上，这些照片是他从一系列实验中得到的所有结果，但不得不扔掉。
But finally, he starts to get incredible results.
但最终，他开始取得令人难以置信的成果。
Jon gave him leukemia cells for the first time.
乔恩第一次给了他白血病细胞。
And the pulsing seems to have killed 30% more of the cancer cells compared with the controls.
与对照组相比，脉冲似乎多杀死了 30% 的癌细胞。
You're doing something to these.
你正在对这些做点什么。
You're doing something here.
你在这里做某事。
Well, yeah, I have video.
嗯，是的，我有视频。
Jonathan Brody We can get quantitation on this.
乔纳森·布罗迪：我们可以对此进行定量。
Really?
真的吗？
Hey, if we can get quantitative numbers out of this, I'll keep hammering these guys.
嘿，如果我们能从中得到定量的数字，我会继续打击这些家伙。
Jon turns to Anthony and starts going through his mental checklist.
乔恩转向安东尼，开始检查他的心理清单。
Again he's excited.
他再次兴奋起来。
He's thinking that maybe, if everything's right, these results are good enough to publish in a paper.
他认为，如果一切顺利的话，这些结果也许足以在论文中发表。
Now Anthony, I'm serious about this.
安东尼，我对此很认真。
You need to think about, for me, like anything I've done for you, you need to think about, is there any-- these plates just sit out here, and then you bring the other plate in there.
对我来说，你需要考虑一下，就像我为你做的任何事情一样，你需要考虑一下，是否有这些盘子就放在这里，然后你把另一个盘子放在那里。
And there's nothing different that you do to those plates.
你对这些盘子做的事情没有什么不同。
Just electronic pulsing.
只是电子脉冲。
Jonathan Brody Because if we publish this, your name will go first.
乔纳森·布罗迪 因为如果我们发布此内容，您的名字将排在第一位。
My name will go last.
我的名字会排在最后。
It's our names on the line.
线路上写着我们的名字。
We're married together.
我们一起结婚了。
Yeah, I understand that.
是的，我明白。
Jonathan Brody So our reputation is married.
乔纳森·布罗迪 所以我们的声誉是联姻的。
I think I should be a technical footnote at the end, "Thanks to Anthony Holland for assistance."
我想我应该在最后加上一个技术脚注，“感谢安东尼·霍兰德的帮助。”
I think that's absurd.
我认为这很荒谬。
Anthony Holland It wouldn't bother me.
安东尼·霍兰德 这不会打扰我。
That's one of the most absurd comments you've made since I've known you.
这是自从我认识你以来你说过的最荒谬的评论之一。
And you've made a few.
你已经做了一些。
Careful here.
这里要小心。
Gabriel Rhodes A couple days later, I talk to Jon up on the roof of his apartment building.
加布里埃尔·罗兹 几天后，我在乔恩的公寓楼屋顶上与他交谈。
They're still waiting for the numbers, the analysis.
他们仍在等待数字和分析。
But now, they've got both leukemia and pancreatic experiments that they're fired up about.
但现在，他们对白血病和胰腺实验都感到兴奋不已。
I mean, they're astounding results and sort of unprecedented.
我的意思是，它们的结果令人震惊，而且是前所未有的。
There could be a lot of reasons behind it besides the pulsing.
除了脉冲之外，其背后可能还有很多原因。
And that's why we need to reproduce it.
这就是为什么我们需要重现它。
What makes me nervous and anxious is if I'm truly the only cancer researcher using this apparatus since Royal Rife, because again, that puts even more pressure on me to publish something that's real.
让我感到紧张和焦虑的是，我是否真的是自 Royal Rife 以来唯一使用这种设备的癌症研究人员，因为这又给我带来了更大的压力，要求我发表真实的东西。
And of course, I want it to work.
当然，我希望它能发挥作用。
It's potentially something very exciting.
这可能是非常令人兴奋的事情。
But it's still very much up in the air.
但这仍然悬而未决。
I kind of feel like that.
我有点像这样的感觉。
We're living in Oz right now, because we're doing the impossible.
我们现在住在奥兹国，因为我们正在做不可能的事。
What was Oz all about?
奥兹到底是怎么回事？
Oz was all about, Dorothy goes to a wonderful place where miracles happen.
《奥兹国》讲述的是，多萝西去了一个奇迹发生的奇妙地方。
That's where I am, because we're proving the impossible.
这就是我所在的地方，因为我们正在证明不可能。
We're proving that a Rife machine kills cancer.
我们正在证明 Rife 机器可以杀死癌症。
We're not proving.
我们不是在证明。
It's been proven.
这已经被证明了。
The question is, how much proof can we pile up now for other people?
问题是，我们现在能为其他人积累多少证据？
As Jon said, no one's going to believe it.
正如乔恩所说，没有人会相信。
Well, the rest of my life, no matter what anybody says, I know it works.
好吧，在我的余生中，无论别人说什么，我都知道它有效。
By the end of August, a year since they started this process, Anthony's done two rounds of experiments.
八月底，也就是他们开始这个过程一年后，安东尼完成了两轮实验。
And he's about to finish a final round.
他即将完成最后一轮。
The plan is for Anthony to reproduce the great leukemia and pancreatic results one more time, with perfect controls, including a special kind of control called a sham.
安东尼的计划是通过完美的控制，包括一种称为假手术的特殊控制，再次重现伟大的白血病和胰腺结果。
Jon has asked Anthony to start writing up a paper to submit for publication while he's finishing the experiments.
乔恩要求安东尼在完成实验时开始撰写一篇论文以供发表。
And he's more confident about the project than I've ever seen him.
他对这个项目比我见过的任何时候都更有信心。
Just to let you know where I'm at, I'm excited about finishing this paper, putting my name on the paper.
只是为了让您知道我现在的处境，我很高兴能完成这篇论文，并将我的名字写在论文上。
I'm willing to put my name out there so much that I'll be the senior author, the last author.
我非常愿意把我的名字放在那里，以至于我将成为资深作者，最后一位作者。
And I'm willing to send in an NIH grant-- I don't know if we'll get it together-- for October.
我愿意在 10 月份向 NIH 提供一笔资助——我不知道我们是否能凑齐。
So this will be a six-page, $250,000 grant to pursue this work with Anthony.
因此，这将是一份长达六页、价值 25 万美元的拨款，用于与安东尼一起开展这项工作。
And I believe it so much that we're starting to administratively think about it and move this forward.
我对此深信不疑，因此我们开始从行政角度考虑并推动这一进程。
If these controls work out well, his therapy's working at this stage of the game.
如果这些控制效果良好，那么他的治疗在游戏的这个阶段就起作用了。
And I wouldn't have predicted that.
我不会预料到这一点。
I mean, I know I'm going to get criticism about it.
我的意思是，我知道我会因此受到批评。
I know they're like, what are you doing?
我知道他们会想，你在做什么？
What is this?
这是什么？
Do you really believe this stuff?
你真的相信这些东西吗？
I'm very serious about my reputation.
我非常重视我的声誉。
And some scientists don't have an open mind.
有些科学家没有开放的心态。
I'm definitely nervous about that aspect.
我确实对这方面感到紧张。
I'm doing OK.
我还好。
How are you?
你好吗？
Anthony Holland Very good.
安东尼·霍兰德 非常好。
And then, bad news.
然后，坏消息。
Really bad news.
真是个坏消息。
I'm up at Skidmore with Anthony when Jon calls with the data about the final round of experiments.
我和安东尼一起在斯基德莫尔，这时乔恩打电话来提供有关最后一轮实验的数据。
At first, they talk about the Excel spreadsheet with data from the control experiment called a sham.
首先，他们谈论 Excel 电子表格，其中包含来自称为“假”的对照实验的数据。
There was a bit of a strange result there.
那里的结果有点奇怪。
But the real bad news comes when Jon asks Anthony to open up the PowerPoint presentation and look at the data from the pancreatic experiments.
但当乔恩要求安东尼打开 PowerPoint 演示文稿并查看胰腺实验的数据时，真正的坏消息来了。
PowerPoint.
微软幻灯片软件。
Let's see, room temperature-- whoa.
让我们看看，室温——哇。
What is this a PowerPoint of?
这是什么 PowerPoint？
Well, the pulsing basically caused the cells to become resistant to the drugs.
嗯，脉冲基本上导致细胞对药物产生抗药性。
And they grew better.
他们成长得更好。
This is really weird, because it's very opposite of what we saw in previous experiments.
这真的很奇怪，因为它与我们在之前的实验中看到的非常相反。
Yeah.
是的。
Gabriel Rhodes It's a disaster.
加布里埃尔·罗兹 这是一场灾难。
It's a huge setback.
这是一个巨大的挫折。
It's shocking.
太令人震惊了。
The data show that in the plate of treated pancreatic cells, the ones pulsed with electromagnetic waves and given a tiny dose of chemo, 100% of the cancer cells were alive after treatment.
数据显示，在经过处理的胰腺细胞平板中，用电磁波脉冲并给予微量化疗的胰腺细胞，在治疗后 100% 的癌细胞仍然存活。
Meaning not only did the pulsing not kill any cancer cells, but somehow, the pulsing seemed to protect the cancer cells from being killed by the chemo.
这意味着脉冲不仅没有杀死任何癌细胞，而且不知何故，脉冲似乎可以保护癌细胞不被化疗杀死。
Anthony is stunned.
安东尼惊呆了。
He keeps saying the same thing again and again.
他不断地一遍又一遍地说同样的话。
All the other experiments show completely different results.
所有其他实验都显示出完全不同的结果。
I don't understand that.
我不明白。
It doesn't make any sense to me.
这对我来说没有任何意义。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Jonathan Brody Yeah.
乔纳森·布罗迪 是的。
So I'll go through stepwise, OK?
那我就一步一步来，好吗？
Because there's some things we definitely need to discuss here.
因为有些事情我们确实需要在这里讨论。
They talk for 45 minutes, going over every aspect of the experiment.
他们谈了 45 分钟，讨论了实验的各个方面。
Anthony had used a different microscope this time.
安东尼这次使用了不同的显微镜。
Maybe that was a problem.
也许这是一个问题。
The microscope light that Anthony used when he took time-lapsed photos of the experiments, was the light heating the cells?
安东尼在拍摄实验延时照片时使用的显微镜灯，是在加热细胞吗？
And the amp for the device had been outputting less power than usual.
而且该设备的放大器输出的功率比平时要少。
Maybe some of the components were damaged.
也许某些组件已损坏。
But the upshot of these last experiments is different for Jon and Anthony.
但对于乔恩和安东尼来说，最后这些实验的结果是不同的。
Anthony sees these results as a fluke, an outlier.
安东尼认为这些结果只是侥幸、异常值。
The other results still seem valid to him.
其他结果对他来说似乎仍然有效。
But for Jon, there's only one truth.
但对乔恩来说，只有一个事实。
If they want to publish, they've got to do more experiments.
如果他们想发表，就必须做更多的实验。
Anthony has to reproduce and confirm those great earlier results with controls.
安东尼必须通过控制来重现和确认那些伟大的早期结果。
For me, doing this for 20-some-odd years or whatever it is, it doesn't surprise me that it's going to be this complicated.
对我来说，做这件事已经有二十多年了，或者不管是什么，它会变得如此复杂，我并不感到惊讶。
But I'm in it for the long haul, as far as the collaboration is, to try to figure this out.
但就合作而言，我会长期参与其中，试图解决这个问题。
And we'll just keep at it, OK?
我们会坚持下去，好吗？
OK.
好的。
Gabriel Rhodes But that wasn't what happened.
加布里埃尔·罗兹 但事实并非如此。
In fact, for an entire year, Jon wasn't sure what was going on.
事实上，整整一年，乔恩都不确定发生了什么。
And neither was I.
我也不是。
He offered to go up to Skidmore to set up a lab for Anthony there if he couldn't come back down to Philadelphia.
如果安东尼不能回到费城，他提出愿意去斯基德莫尔为安东尼建立一个实验室。
But that didn't happen.
但那并没有发生。
And then Anthony became very hard to reach.
然后安东尼就变得很难接触了。
And a couple of weeks after Jon talked to Anthony by phone for the first time in several months, I go and see Jon.
乔恩几个月来第一次与安东尼通电话几周后，我去看了乔恩。
He's decided to go up to Saratoga the following week to talk to Anthony face to face about the experiment.
他决定下周前往萨拉托加与安东尼面对面讨论这项实验。
In the last year, Jon's become more of a skeptic, partly about the device itself, but also about the collaboration with Anthony.
去年，乔恩变得更加怀疑，部分是对设备本身，还有与安东尼的合作。
Why would Anthony just drop out like this?
安东尼为什么会就这样退赛呢？
If he really believes in it and he really believes those results, let's do it again.
如果他真的相信它并且他真的相信这些结果，那么我们再做一次。
If you cured cancer cells, let's do it again.
如果你治愈了癌细胞，我们再做一次。
My lab is open.
我的实验室开放了。
My lab is open.
我的实验室开放了。
My expertise is open.
我的专业知识是开放的。
I'm happy-- you don't want to do it in Philadelphia?
我很高兴——你不想在费城做吗？
Let's do it in Saratoga.
我们在萨拉托加做吧。
Ask him, why hasn't he taken me up on that?
问他，为什么不接受我？
Let me ask you a question.
让我问你一个问题。
If you knew you had something that killed cancer cells, and you believed in it, you really believed in it, you could wait a year to try to prove that because one set of experiments didn't work?
如果你知道你有某种东西可以杀死癌细胞，并且你相信它，你真的相信它，你可以等一年来尝试证明这一点，因为一组实验不起作用？
I mean, come on.
我的意思是，来吧。
This is one of the big differences between Jon and Anthony, between scientist and non-scientist.
这是乔恩和安东尼之间、科学家和非科学家之间的巨大差异之一。
For Jon, having a year's worth of work suddenly thrown into question is a normal day at the office.
对于乔恩来说，一年的工作突然受到质疑是办公室里很平常的一天。
But for Anthony, that's not normal.
但对于安东尼来说，这并不正常。
And it's not OK.
这不行。
The time in Jon's lab was a year of his life, where he felt like Jon kept moving the goal posts.
在乔恩实验室的那段时间是他一生中的一年，他觉得乔恩一直在移动球门柱。
I felt that way, too, sometimes as I was watching.
我有时在观看时也有这种感觉。
Jon kept saying he was amazed at what he was seeing and just about convinced.
乔恩一直说他对所看到的感到惊讶并且几乎相信。
But then he'd wake up in the middle of the night with another experiment or control that he wanted to run.
但随后他会在半夜醒来，进行另一个他想要进行的实验或对照。
And there was no telling when it would end, which for him, again, is normal.
而且不知道什么时候会结束，这对他来说又是正常的。
But now, Anthony wants to know, before he starts turning his life upside down again, what will count as proof enough for Jon?
但现在，安东尼想知道，在他开始再次颠覆自己的生活之前，什么对乔恩来说才算足够的证据？
How many experiments?
做了多少次实验？
So let's say I do three weeks of experiment, and I only concentrate on these leukemia cells.
假设我做了三周的实验，并且我只专注于这些白血病细胞。
And if I can kill at least 20% every single time, every week, will that do it?
如果我每周、每次都能杀死至少 20% 的人，行吗？
Would that be enough?
这样就够了吗？
Or do you want to see pancreatic die, or do you want to see-- I mean, what exact buttons do I have to hit?
或者你想看到胰腺死亡，或者你想看到——我的意思是，我必须按下什么按钮？
When Jon gets to Saratoga, he and Anthony embrace and smile.
当乔恩到达萨拉托加时，他和安东尼拥抱并微笑。
And they're clearly glad to see each other.
他们显然很高兴见到对方。
But as soon as they start talking about the experiments, they start arguing.
但一旦他们开始谈论实验，他们就开始争论。
And they don't understand each other.
而且他们互相不理解。
Jon keeps coming back to the same point.
乔恩总是回到同一点。
Why can't you accept that we haven't proven anything?
为什么你不能接受我们没有证明任何事情？
In the court of scientific law, we haven't proven anything.
在科学法法庭上，我们还没有证明任何事情。
That's fine.
没关系。
I mean, if you want to leave it at that, you could say that.
我的意思是，如果你想就此罢休，你可以这么说。
But there's a big difference between intriguing and promising results and actually showing and demonstrating that something works.
但有趣和有希望的结果与实际展示和证明某些东西有效之间存在很大差异。
There's a huge difference.
有很大的不同。
So 10 years from now, would you still walk around campus and be like, you know what?
十年后，你还会在校园里走来走去，然后说，你知道吗？
I killed those cancer cells.
我杀死了那些癌细胞。
I actually did that.
我确实这么做了。
I actually proved that this worked.
我实际上证明了这是有效的。
Do you think, deep down, that's the way you feel?
你认为，内心深处，这就是你的感受吗？
That's what I want to know.
这就是我想知道的。
We're not just talking about the last experiment, right?
我们不只是在谈论最后一个实验，对吧？
We're talking about the whole thing.
我们正在谈论整个事情。
In general?
一般来说？
Are you kidding?
你在开玩笑吧？
I would frame this chart showing 43% of the leukemia cells dead.
我会画出这张图表，显示 43% 的白血病细胞死亡。
And I would say, we nailed them.
我想说，我们成功了。
Let me ask you a question.
让我问你一个问题。
Let me ask you a question.
让我问你一个问题。
If you're sitting on the cure for cancer, why aren't we doing the experiments?
如果你正在等待治愈癌症的方法，我们为什么不做实验呢？
I can't afford it.
我买不起。
Jonathan Brody So you're telling me, you're willing to say to the world that you think you have the cure for cancer, but you can't afford it.
乔纳森·布罗迪（Jonathan Brody）：所以你告诉我，你愿意对世界说，你认为你有治愈癌症的方法，但你买不起。
Yeah.
是的。
Gabriel Rhodes Anthony says he's run out of money.
加布里埃尔·罗兹·安东尼说他的钱已经用完了。
He spent six years, including the time he worked on his own with protozoa, putting his own money into these experiments.
他花了六年时间，包括他自己研究原生动物的时间，将自己的钱投入到这些实验中。
Equipment, travel, living expenses while he was at Jon's lab, many, many thousands of dollars.
他在乔恩实验室期间的设备、旅费、生活费，有好几千美元。
He won't say exactly how much.
他不会透露具体多少。
And then, after he got back from the last round of experiments at Jon's lab, it was like he was looking up from the microscope at his life for the first time in a while.
然后，当他从乔恩实验室的最后一轮实验回来后，就好像他一段时间以来第一次从显微镜上抬起头来审视自己的生活。
I tell you, I came home from that year, and I just look at the house, and I just see, oh my god, I lost track of what's going on here.
我告诉你，那一年我回到家，我只是看着房子，然后我发现，天哪，我不知道这里发生了什么。
We need a new roof on the house.
我们的房子需要一个新屋顶。
And we've got a huge leak in the bathroom.
我们的浴室漏水了。
The plumbing's all screwed up.
水管都坏了
And I've been making too many sacrifices.
而且我已经做出了太多的牺牲。
Jon doesn't offer to fund another round of experiments.
乔恩没有提出资助另一轮实验。
He's got a tight budget.
他的预算很紧张。
And at this point, like I said, he's not feeling so hopeful about Anthony and his experiment.
在这一点上，就像我说的，他对安东尼和他的实验不再抱有希望。
He's more optimistic about the 30-plus other experiments he's got moving ahead in his lab.
他对自己实验室正在进行的 30 多项其他实验更加乐观。
And Anthony refuses to ask for money to proceed.
安东尼拒绝索要资金以继续进行。
He says that would be rude.
他说那是不礼貌的。
But he says he may have a different solution to the money problem.
但他表示，他可能对资金问题有不同的解决方案。
He starts showing Jon his new website for his new nonprofit company, called--
他开始向乔恩展示他的新非营利公司的新网站，名为——
Novobiotronics Incorporated, "the future of biotechnology research," and a lot of dramatic statements.
Novobiotronics Incorporated，“生物技术研究的未来”，以及许多戏剧性的陈述。
Apparently, for the past year, Anthony's been forming this nonprofit company and building the website, which has tabs for all the different research he hopes to do with the device.
显然，在过去的一年里，安东尼一直在组建这家非营利公司并建立网站，其中包含他希望使用该设备进行的所有不同研究的选项卡。
Not just cancer, but also Lyme disease, malaria.
不仅是癌症，还有莱姆病、疟疾。
He doesn't get into the malaria or any part of that with Jon.
他没有与乔恩接触疟疾或任何其他疾病。
But he does show him the pages and pages where he explains, in detail, the cancer experiments they've done, without mentioning Jon's name or the name of his lab, since he doesn't have permission.
但他确实给他看了一页又一页，详细解释了他们所做的癌症实验，但没有提及乔恩的名字或他的实验室的名称，因为他没有获得许可。
Anthony says his plan is to use the website to raise money so they can continue the experiments.
安东尼说，他的计划是利用该网站筹集资金，以便他们可以继续进行实验。
I thought Jon might be angry.
我想乔恩可能会生气。
Why hadn't Anthony told him that this is what he'd been doing all year?
为什么安东尼不告诉他这就是他这一整年都在做的事情？
But Jon's reaction is--
但乔恩的反应是——
This is amazing.
这太棒了。
I wish that all the students or the graduate students or people or the scientists that believed in what they were doing took this sort of initiative.
我希望所有相信自己正在做的事情的学生、研究生、人们或科学家都采取这种主动行动。
Wow.
哇。
That's nice to hear.
很高兴听到这个消息。
Jonathan Brody I think it's a beautiful website, Anthony.
乔纳森·布罗迪（Jonathan Brody） 我认为这是一个漂亮的网站，安东尼。
I think it's great.
我认为这很棒。
I think my only concern is, again, which is my overall concern of where things are at, is you have to be really careful here, that, really, a trained eye or a trained scientist is going to immediately question the overabundance of data without the controls and without the reproducibility.
我认为我唯一担心的是，这是我对事情所处位置的整体担忧，你必须在这里非常小心，实际上，训练有素的眼睛或训练有素的科学家会立即质疑没有控制和没有可重复性的过多数据。
So let me respond to this idea that intelligent and expert trained scientists, if shown this data, might dismiss it for lack of more information on the controls.
因此，让我对这个想法做出回应，即聪明且经过专业培训的科学家，如果显示这些数据，可能会因为缺乏有关控制的更多信息而驳回它。
And here's where I've been saving the best information for last, for a sort of dramatic and controversial revelation.
在这里，我一直把最好的信息留到最后，以提供一种戏剧性和有争议的启示。
I've had three important scientists in the field, in the field of cancer research, contact me about my work.
在癌症研究领域，三位重要的科学家就我的工作与我联系。
They have seen this data.
他们已经看到了这个数据。
They have seen all of our data.
他们已经看到了我们所有的数据。
This changes the conversation entirely.
这完全改变了谈话。
Suddenly, Jon's reputation is on the line.
突然间，乔恩的名誉岌岌可危。
I would never give that data out to another scientist.
我永远不会把这些数据透露给其他科学家。
It wasn't controlled.
它没有被控制。
That's highly inappropriate behavior that you did, that you actually went behind my back and you sent this to other researchers, where I allowed you to use my credibility and my lab to do this work.
你所做的这是非常不恰当的行为，你实际上是在背后把这个发送给其他研究人员，我允许你利用我的信誉和我的实验室来做这项工作。
OK, so here's my response.
好的，这是我的回应。
First of all, if there was some breach in protocol I made by sharing some preliminary data--
首先，如果我分享一些初步数据违反了协议——
Why didn't you ask me?
你为什么不问我？
Why didn't you say, "Look, someone's contacting me.
你为什么不说：“看，有人在联系我。
Do you mind if I share some of our data together?"
你介意我一起分享一些数据吗？”
Could I finish without being interrupted?
我可以不被打扰地讲完吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Anthony Holland If I broke some protocol, I apologize.
安东尼·霍兰德：如果我违反了某些协议，我深表歉意。
You never told me, "Keep this data secret and don't show it to anybody." It just was given freely--
你从来没有告诉过我，“保守这些数据的秘密，不要向任何人展示。”它只是免费给予的——
Even though Anthony promises he didn't mention Jon's name to these other scientists, if one of those scientists were to do a quick Google search, in a few clicks, he could get to Jon, who would then be associated with data he would never want public.
尽管安东尼承诺他不会向其他科学家提及乔恩的名字，但如果其中一位科学家进行快速谷歌搜索，只需点击几下，他就可以找到乔恩，然后乔恩就会与他永远不想公开的数据相关联。
I'm sorry.
对不起。
I mean, to me as a composer, it's like if some violinist says, "Hey, do you have a piece for a violin?" I say, "Well, I have a sketch.
我的意思是，对于我作为一名作曲家来说，这就像某个小提琴家说：“嘿，你有一首小提琴曲吗？”我说：“好吧，我有一个草图。
It's nothing really great, but I have a little start." "Well, let me see what it is." "Sure.
虽然没什么了不起，但我已经有了一个小小的开始。” “好吧，让我看看那是什么。” “当然。
I'll send it along." So it's the same kind of thing.
我这就送去。”所以这是同一类事情。
And when people contacted me--
当人们联系我时——
You didn't send it as a sketch, Anthony.
你没有把它作为草图发送，安东尼。
You sent them data that is as if we had done the proper controls.
您向他们发送的数据就好像我们已经进行了适当的控制一样。
That's false advertising.
那是虚假广告。
Jonathan, in one case, I met for hours with the director of a medical research hospital in the cancer division.
乔纳森，在一个案例中，我与一家医学研究医院癌症科的主任会面了几个小时。
And I explained to this doctor exactly, exactly what we did.
我向这位医生准确地解释了我们所做的事情。
She knew it was preliminary.
她知道这只是初步的。
She knew there were holes and things that had to be nailed down.
她知道有些漏洞和东西必须钉牢。
She knew all the details of everything, looked at the data, and said, "Yeah, let's go.
她知道所有的细节，查看了数据，然后说：“是的，我们走吧。
Here's a seven-page contract." So I'm just saying--
这是一份七页的合同。”所以我只是说——
I just wanted to be part of the conversation.
我只是想参与谈话。
You asked me to respond.
你要求我回应。
No scientist would take my preliminary data seriously.
没有科学家会认真对待我的初步数据。
I'm sorry, that's wrong.
对不起，那是错误的。
And I think you need to make up your mind.
我认为你需要下定决心。
Either this preliminary data I have is not worthy of another scientist's consideration, or you're mad at me for showing it to another scientist who considered it worthy.
要么我掌握的这些初步数据不值得另一位科学家考虑，要么你因为我把它展示给另一位认为值得的科学家而生我的气。
It's not.
它不是。
Anthony, we've had discussions.
安东尼，我们已经讨论过了。
And you were mostly concerned about--
你最关心的是——
Finally, Jon and Anthony asked for time to talk alone with no microphone.
最后，乔恩和安东尼要求有时间在没有麦克风的情况下单独交谈。
After a while, they made up.
过了一会儿，他们和好了。
But it doesn't seem like they're going to be working together anytime soon.
但他们似乎不会很快合作。
What it felt like to sit in that room, it felt like watching a couple break up, which I felt more sad about than I'd expected to.
坐在那个房间里的感觉就像是看着一对情侣分手，我感到比我预想的更悲伤。
They were this odd pair it was fun to root for.
他们是一对奇怪的组合，支持他们很有趣。
And on top of that, I just felt like, [BLEEP] cancer.
最重要的是，我只是觉得，[哔]癌症。
Anthony's father died of cancer.
安东尼的父亲死于癌症。
Jon's aunt died of cancer.
乔恩的姨妈死于癌症。
My mom died of cancer.
我妈妈死于癌症。
Why can't we just get rid of this already?
为什么我们不能摆脱这个呢？
I think out of the three of us, only Jon, who deals with it every day, had realistic expectations when he started these experiments with Anthony.
我认为在我们三个人中，只有乔恩每天都要处理这个问题，当他和安东尼开始这些实验时，他有现实的期望。
Even if you have a good idea, even if you have a potential sci-fi cure, it's just not that easy.
即使你有一个好主意，即使你有一个潜在的科幻疗法，但这也不是那么容易。
But if we want scientific breakthroughs, this is what it takes.
但如果我们想要科学突破，这就是我们所需要的。
We are trying to have breakthroughs.
我们正在努力寻求突破。
We're just not succeeding most of the time.
大多数时候我们都没有成功。
Gabriel Rhodes.
加布里埃尔·罗德斯。
He's going to continue filming Anthony and Jon if either of them ever starts this research again.
如果安东尼和乔恩再次开始这项研究，他将继续拍摄他们。
You can see clips from what he's filmed so far at thecuredocumentary.com.
您可以在 thecuredocumentary.com 上查看他迄今为止拍摄的片段。
Coming up, trying something crazy, throwing a Hail Mary pass to solve a tough problem in your own personal life.
来吧，尝试一些疯狂的事情，扔出万福玛丽通行证来解决你个人生活中的难题。
A true story.
一个真实的故事。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our show, of course, we choose a theme, bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，我们的节目每周都会选择一个主题，为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's show, So Crazy It Just Might Work, stories of people trying a risky thing that nobody ever tries.
今天的节目《太疯狂了，它可能有用》讲述了人们尝试一项从未有人尝试过的冒险事情的故事。
And that is for a good reason.
这是有充分理由的。
We have arrived at Act Two of our show.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two, Benny Takes a Jet.
第二幕，本尼乘坐喷气式飞机。
So Benny was 23 in Utah.
本尼 23 岁，在犹他州。
And he would want you to know, before you hear anything else in this story, that he knows that he was an immature 23, because he was gay and a Mormon, which meant that he did not admit to others or himself that he was gay.
在你听到这个故事的其他内容之前，他想让你知道，他知道自己是一个不成熟的 23 岁男孩，因为他是同性恋，而且是摩门教徒，这意味着他不向别人或自己承认自己是同性恋。
So he was utterly unused to how to handle a crush, which is what this story is about, a crush.
所以他完全不知道如何处理暗恋，这就是这个故事的主题，暗恋。
The crushee is 18 and Mormon.
受害人今年 18 岁，是摩门教徒。
And Benny met him when he came in for a job interview.
本尼是在他来参加工作面试时遇见他的。
In retrospect, Benny says, he was obviously straight.
本尼说，回想起来，他显然是个异性恋。
Though at the job interview--
虽然在求职面试中——
He was flirtatious with me in that he wanted the job really bad.
他对我调情，因为他非常想要这份工作。
So he was very complimentary towards me.
所以他对我非常赞赏。
He kept telling me, "You're, like, the coolest guy I've ever interviewed with my entire life.
他一直告诉我，“你是我一生中采访过的最酷的人。
You're so cool.
你真酷。
You're the kind of guy that everybody wants to hang out with.
你是那种每个人都想和他一起出去玩的人。
And you've got this energy kind of emulating." And I was just-- I was so taken by him.
而且你有这种模仿的能量。”我只是——我被他迷住了。
And he had these long, black eyelashes and these blue eyes.
他有又长又黑的睫毛和蓝色的眼睛。
And I was just all gawking at him.
我只是呆呆地看着他。
Really?
真的吗？
Tell me everything you remember about stuff he said and stuff you said.
告诉我你记得的关于他说过的话和你说过的话的一切。
I remember saying to him, "You know, this isn't just a normal retail company.
我记得对他说：“你知道，这不仅仅是一家普通的零售公司。
When people come through the door, it's very important to get intimate and just, like, lock eyes with people and make them feel-- like, really seduce them." And he's like, "Kind of like I'm seducing you right now?" And keep in mind, this boy is hopelessly straight.
当人们进门时，保持亲密关系非常重要，就像与人们四目相对，让他们感觉——就像，真的在诱惑他们。”他就像是，“有点像我现在在引诱你？”请记住，这个男孩是无可救药的直人。
However, I was interpreting it the way I wanted it to go.
然而，我是按照我想要的方式解释它的。
And I remember, he kept doing that little-- every time it would be like a touche moment, he would reach over and hit me, kind of-- "Yeah, bro," kind of hit me on the knee.
我记得，他一直在做那个小事——每次就像触碰的时刻，他都会伸手打我，有点——“是的，兄弟，”有点打我的膝盖。
And it was making me crazy.
这让我发疯。
Oh, he touched you.
哦，他碰了你。
Benny Several times.
本尼好几次了。
So you hire him for this job.
所以你雇用他来做这份工作。
And then he's working there at the company.
然后他就在公司工作。
And how often would you see him?
你多久见一次他？
Well, I traveled Monday through Thursday.
嗯，我周一到周四旅行了。
And then, once I hired him, I found myself finding all these excuses and reasons why I needed to be back in Utah.
然后，一旦我雇用了他，我发现自己找到了所有这些借口和理由为什么我需要回到犹他州。
Oh, there's a big HR meltdown with this at this store.
哦，这家商店的人力资源部门陷入了严重崩溃。
And I think there's a lot of theft problems, that we're having control issues at this store.
我认为存在很多盗窃问题，我们在这家商店存在控制问题。
Someone would give me one little thing, and I would come roaring back on a one-way ticket to Salt Lake City.
有人会给我一件小东西，我就会带着一张去盐湖城的单程票飞驰而回。
Was he that cute?
他有那么可爱吗？
Benny I don't know what happened.
本尼，我不知道发生了什么事。
Now that I look back, when I show people pictures of him, if I--
现在回想起来，当我向人们展示他的照片时，如果我——
You have pictures of him?
你有他的照片吗？
Benny Well, I took several pictures of him.
本尼 嗯，我给他拍了几张照片。
His friend, he and I ended up seeing each other.
他的朋友，他和我最终见面了。
And I said, "Oh, I'm doing this end of the year slide show of all the employees.
我说：“哦，我正在为所有员工制作年终幻灯片。
And oh, I don't have any pictures of him.
哦，我没有他的照片。
So is there any possible way that you-- do you have any just lying around?" "Oh my gosh, yes.
那么有没有可能让你——你有任何闲置的东西吗？” “天哪，是的。
I have all these pictures of us when we went boating." "Oh, perfect."
我有我们划船时的所有照片。” “哦，完美。”
So he brings all these pictures.
所以他带来了所有这些照片。
And I end up, of course, picking out all of the shirtless ones.
当然，我最终挑选出了所有赤裸上身的人。
And he never questioned.
而且他从来没有质疑过。
He'd just, "Oh yeah, this is a good one, too." And I even remember him saying, "This one looks like some Abercrombie shot of him coming out of the water." And I said, "Yeah, I'll take that one, too.
他只是说：“哦，是的，这也是一件好事。”我什至记得他说：“这张看起来像是 Abercrombie 拍摄的他从水里出来的照片。”我说：“是的，我也选那个。
I think everyone will like that one."
我想每个人都会喜欢这个。”
And did you use them?
你用过它们吗？
Benny Actually, I did put a couple of them in the slide show.
本尼 事实上，我确实在幻灯片中放了几张。
But then, when I was done, I never gave them back to his friend.
但当我完成后，我再也没有把它们还给他的朋友。
I had them, like, stashed all over the place.
我把它们藏得到处都是。
I mean, at one point, they were in my Book of Mormon, they were in my Bible.
我的意思是，在某一时刻，它们出现在我的摩尔门经中，它们出现在我的圣经中。
I was just such a mess, just a boiling pot of crazy.
我真是一团糟，简直就是一锅沸腾的疯狂。
I look back now, and I still don't even know who that person is, to behave like that.
现在回想起来，我什至都不知道那个人是谁，做出这样的举动。
And what did you say to yourself at the time?
当时你对自己说了什么？
What did you think it was?
你以为那是什么？
I would never, ever try anything.
我永远不会尝试任何事情。
I would never-- because I always told myself I wasn't gay.
我永远不会——因为我总是告诉自己我不是同性恋。
But I was struggling with this thing that I didn't know what it was.
但我一直在与这件事作斗争，我不知道那是什么。
And maybe other men, young men, struggle with the same thing.
也许其他男人，年轻人，也在为同样的事情而挣扎。
And maybe there would be a moment of vulnerability or a moment of confusion for him, where he would be possibly feeling the same thing I was.
也许他会有一段脆弱或困惑的时刻，他可能会和我有同样的感觉。
And maybe, I don't know, a cuddle or a kiss on the cheek or something very minor.
也许，我不知道，一个拥抱或亲吻脸颊或一些非常小的事情。
That's really as far as you would go in your head?
这真的是你脑子里想的那么远吗？
When I was with him.
当我和他在一起的时候。
There were times-- well, it went way further than that, obviously, in my private spaces.
有时候——嗯，显然，在我的私人空间里，情况远不止于此。
Way further, as far as it could possibly go.
走得更远，尽可能地走得更远。
But then I just felt so horrible.
但后来我只觉得太可怕了。
And then, when I would see him, I would feel like I had done these things with him.
然后，当我看到他时，我会觉得我和他一起做了这些事情。
And then I couldn't look at him.
然后我就不敢看他了。
And there was all this guilt.
还有所有这些罪恶感。
I would then really beat myself up and say, oh, Benny, will you let Satan just get into your body like that and allow that?
然后我真的会打败自己说，哦，本尼，你会让撒旦就这样进入你的身体并允许这样吗？
This is so evil.
这太邪恶了。
I would go there.
我会去那里。
I can't even begin to describe to you how exhausting it was.
我什至无法向你描述这是多么的疲惫。
Coming out was not an option.
出柜不是一个选择。
It was so unfathomable.
真是深不可测。
You were Mormon.
你是摩门教徒。
Benny Mormon, and really believed it.
本尼·莫门，他真的相信这一点。
I believed it so much that, around this time, there was a gay-straight alliance group at a high school, trying to form in Salt Lake.
我非常相信这一点，以至于大约在这个时候，一所高中里有一个同性恋-异性恋联盟团体，试图在盐湖城成立。
And I actually went to it to try and fight them off, to get it not to pass to be able to be at this school.
事实上，我去参加这个活动是为了试图击退他们，不让他们进入这所学校。
I went and rallied there with some other Christians, Mormons.
我和其他一些基督徒、摩门教徒一起去那里集会。
There was a big group.
有一大群人。
Yeah, because I was very dedicated to also killing this, quote, "demon" that was inside of me, that I was told that was-- I had allowed this to come in.
是的，因为我非常致力于杀死这个，引用，我内心的“恶魔”，我被告知那是——我允许它进来。
I had chosen this.
我选择了这个。
There was no-- and because of the guilt--
没有——并且因为愧疚——
And when you were trying to prevent this group from starting up, did you feel like you were doing other people a favor?
当你试图阻止这个团体成立时，你是否觉得自己在帮别人的忙？
Or was it not even--
或者甚至不是——
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
That was my redemption in what I was behaving like, thinking about guys, going into chat rooms.
这就是我的行为的救赎，想着男人，走进聊天室。
Any of those things that I was doing on the side, I felt, in the greater scope of things, that I was carrying the banner of God.
我副业所做的任何事情，在更大的范围内，我都觉得我是在举着上帝的旗帜。
Anyway, back to the crush.
无论如何，回到暗恋。
Soon enough, the 18-year-old turns 19 and gets called on a Mormon mission to Peru, which means that he'll be gone for two full years.
很快，这位 18 岁的年轻人就满了 19 岁了，并被派往秘鲁执行摩门教传教任务，这意味着他将离开整整两年。
I was absolutely devastated.
我彻底崩溃了。
I went to his farewell.
我去参加他的告别会。
And his parents were all about, "Oh, he loves you so much.
他的父母总是说：“哦，他非常爱你。
You're the greatest boss," yada, yada.
你是最伟大的老板，”耶达，耶达。
Of course, you know how I took all of that.
当然，你知道我是如何接受这一切的。
I'm just filing it in crazy town.
我只是在疯狂小镇归档它。
The 19-year-old leaves.
19岁的年轻人离开了。
Benny stews for six months, driving his best friend Parker nuts with all of his obsessing.
本尼沉迷了六个月，他最好的朋友帕克的痴迷让他发疯。
Parker, by the way, in this story, seems like the greatest guy in the world-- straight, Mormon, but understanding Benny better than Benny was understanding himself at the time.
顺便说一句，在这个故事中，帕克似乎是世界上最伟大的人——异性恋，摩门教，但了解本尼比了解本尼当时的自己还要好。
And it is with Parker, at 2:00 in the morning, that Benny comes up with his idea that is so crazy that it might just work.
凌晨 2:00，本尼和帕克一起想出了他的想法，这个想法是如此疯狂，以至于它可能会奏效。
I said, "We should go visit him in Peru." And Parker says, "You know what, Benny, let's go.
我说：“我们应该去秘鲁看望他。”帕克说：“你知道吗，本尼，我们走吧。
Let's go.
我们走吧。
Let's go visit him.
我们去拜访他吧。
Yeah, let's go see him." And I said, "I'm serious.
是啊，我们去看看他吧。”我说：“我是认真的。
I will book the tickets tonight.
我今晚就订票。
And he said, "OK."
他说：“好吧。”
Benny then goes to the 19-year-old's parents and says that he's taking a vacation to Peru.
然后本尼去找 19 岁男孩的父母，说他要去秘鲁度假。
Would they want him to bring a package or something from the family, maybe?
也许他们想让他带一个包裹或者家里的什么东西？
Seems like a nice offer.
看起来是一个不错的报价。
They say, of course.
他们说，当然。
Everybody agrees to make it a surprise for the 19-year-old, more fun that way.
每个人都同意给 19 岁的他一个惊喜，这样会更有趣。
So Benny and Parker fly to Peru, make their way to the remote mountain town where the 19-year-old was now a missionary.
于是本尼和帕克飞往秘鲁，前往偏远的山区小镇，这位 19 岁的男孩现在在那里担任传教士。
They wander around asking people, where is the Mormon church in town?
他们四处走动询问人们，城里的摩门教教堂在哪里？
I ended up-- someone said, "Oh yes, we know where the Mormoni" or whatever they called it.
我最终——有人说，“哦，是的，我们知道摩门教徒在哪里”或者不管他们怎么称呼它。
They said, "Yeah, we know where the Mormons are." And so they told us where the chapel was.
他们说：“是的，我们知道摩门教徒在哪里。”所以他们告诉我们教堂在哪里。
And we got to the chapel.
我们到了教堂。
And these elders were just, oh, my gosh.
这些长老真是，哦，天哪。
They're yelling through the church, "Oh, my gosh.
他们在教堂里大喊：“哦，天哪。
Buddy from Utah is here.
来自犹他州的朋友来了。
And, oh, my gosh, you just showed up.
而且，哦，天哪，你刚刚出现了。
Like, who does that?
比如说，是谁干的？
That's the coolest thing.
这是最酷的事情。
Dude, how expensive were those tickets?" It turns into to this big--
老兄，那些票有多贵？”事情变成了这么大——
Did you feel guilty at all?
你有没有感到内疚？
Benny Oh, my gosh.
本尼 哦，天哪。
I felt, once I was there in the chapel and this started happening, all of a sudden, this very dark cloud came over me of, boy, you are messing with fire, because now, you're in the Lord's house, and you are waiting for this boy that you are crushing just obsessively over.
我觉得，一旦我在教堂里，这件事就开始发生，突然间，这片非常乌云笼罩着我，孩子，你在搞乱火，因为现在，你在主的家里，你正在等待这个你正在痴迷地压碎的男孩。
And I started to become very uncomfortable.
我开始变得非常不舒服。
And then, all of a sudden, one of the elders came.
就在这时，突然，一位长老走了过来。
They said, "He's here." I felt as if I was going to puke.
他们说：“他在这里。”我感觉自己快要吐了。
And then he came in.
然后他进来了。
He walked right in.
他径直走了进去。
And when he walked in, he stopped in his tracks, and he's, "No way." And he just dropped all of his books.
当他走进去时，他停了下来，他说：“不可能。”他就把所有的书都扔了。
And he just, "What?" And he ran over to me, and he just grabbed me and hugged me so tight.
他只是问：“什么？”他跑向我，抓住我，紧紧地拥抱着我。
It was so tight and so-- And he was like, "What are you doing here?" And Parker is friends with him.
太紧了，所以——他说，“你在这里做什么？”帕克和他是朋友。
So Parker's like, "Hey, dude." Parker's going along with this ridiculous, cockamamie thing that I have done.
所以帕克说，“嘿，伙计。”帕克同意我所做的这件荒唐可笑的事。
And he called his mission president or someone and said, "I have friends from Salt Lake City that are traveling through Peru." He got permission or something to come and take time with us.
他打电话给他的传教团主席或某人说：“我有来自盐湖城的朋友正在秘鲁旅行。”他得到许可或其他什么事情来和我们一起度过时光。
And so it's, like, 7:30 at night now.
现在是晚上 7:30。
It's getting dark.
天快黑了。
And freakin' Parker, he's like, "OK, I'm gonna--" And if you know anything about missionaries, you can't be away from your companion that's with you, can't separate from each other, ever, unless you're going to the bathroom.
该死的帕克，他说，“好吧，我要——”如果你了解传教士，你就不能离开和你在一起的同伴，永远不能彼此分开，除非你要去洗手间。
So Parker's like, "I'm gonna distract him enough, where we're in a conversation, where you can at least get a good 50 feet away from us, where he can still see you so it won't look weird.
所以帕克会说，“我会足够分散他的注意力，我们正在谈话，你至少可以离我们50英尺远，他仍然可以看到你，所以看起来不会很奇怪。
And you can spend some time with him and just talk to him, see how his mission's going."
你可以花一些时间和他在一起，和他谈谈，看看他的任务进展如何。”
So him and I sat on the steps of this cathedral.
于是我和他坐在这座大教堂的台阶上。
And I said, "How's the mission going?" And he started telling me.
我说：“任务进行得怎么样了？”他开始告诉我。
And then he just starts to cry.
然后他就开始哭泣。
And then he says, "I feel like you're an answer to my prayer, because I have been struggling so much here." My heart is ready to beat out of my bloody body.
然后他说：“我觉得你是我祈祷的答案，因为我在这里经历了很多挣扎。”我的心已经准备好从我血淋淋的身体里跳出来了。
I mean, it's just--
我的意思是，这只是——
This is your reaction.
这就是你的反应。
Benny I remember the pulse that was happening.
本尼，我记得当时发生的脉搏。
It almost hurt.
几乎受伤了。
Because he said that, you're the answer to my prayer.
因为他这么说，你就是我祈祷的答案。
Yeah.
是的。
And then he said, "I've been struggling." I said, "Listen.
然后他说：“我一直在挣扎。”我说：“听着。
I've been on a mission.
我一直在执行任务。
I know what that feels like.
我知道那是什么感觉。
I have been here.
我来过这里。
I know how confusing and difficult and lonely it can be." And he said, "I just can't believe you came here." And then he said, "This has got to be the coolest thing anyone has ever done for me, to just come here and do something this, for you to come and see me." And then he said, "Wow, Benny, I feel so much happiness seeing you.
我知道这会是多么令人困惑、困难和孤独。”他说，“我简直不敢相信你来到这里。”然后他说，“这一定是任何人为我做过的最酷的事情，来这里做一些事情，让你来看我。”然后他说，“哇，本尼，见到你我感到非常高兴。
And you are that kind of person that has always filled me with joy and hope.
而你就是那种一直让我充满喜悦和希望的人。
And every time I'm around you, I want to be better."
每次我在你身边，我都想变得更好。”
And then I just said, "Well, you know, I love you a lot." And he said, "I love you, too." And then it was like Tourette's.
然后我就说：“好吧，你知道，我非常爱你。”他说：“我也爱你。”然后就像抽动秽语症一样。
I couldn't even help myself.
我什至无法自拔。
And I just said, "No. I love you." And then he kind of tilted his head.
我只是说：“不。我爱你。”然后他点了点头。
And he looked at me, and he said, "I love you, too, bro." I saw in his face, the way he looked at me.
他看着我，说道：“我也爱你，兄弟。”我从他的脸上看到了他看我的方式。
And then, my eyes are starting to fill up with tears.
然后，我的眼睛开始充满泪水。
I'm starting to panic.
我开始恐慌了。
All of this that I've held inside of me is crumbling.
我内心所持有的所有这一切都在崩溃。
Quivering lip, the whole puppy face, I can't even imagine what he was seeing.
颤抖的嘴唇，整张小狗的脸，我什至无法想象他看到了什么。
And Parker-- I look over.
帕克——我看了过去。
Parker, I see him in the background with his hand like, "cut it" to his neck.
帕克，我在背景中看到他用手“切开”他的脖子。
He just was looking at me like, "Benny, cut it." He was watching the body language.
他只是看着我，好像在说：“本尼，别说了。”他正在观察肢体语言。
He could see what was unfolding.
他可以看到正在发生的事情。
He was like, "Benny, just cut it."
他说：“本尼，剪掉吧。”
And actually, this guy, he knew I had deviated from "I love you, bro." And then he's like, "You know, we gotta go.
事实上，这个家伙，他知道我已经偏离了“我爱你，兄弟”。然后他说：“你知道，我们得走了。
It's getting really dark." And I was crushed, because in that moment, it was like I'd been asleep and someone had woken me up.
天真的黑了。”我很崩溃，因为那一刻，我好像睡着了，有人叫醒了我。
And all of a sudden-- we were walking away, and I said to Parker, "He's straight, isn't he?" And Parker said, "Benny, yes.
突然之间——我们走开了，我对帕克说：“他是异性恋，不是吗？”帕克说：“本尼，是的。
He is." And I just went crazy and started yelling at Parker.
他是。”我简直疯了，开始对帕克大喊大叫。
"How could you let me do this?
“你怎么能让我这么做？
You were supposed to be my voice of reason!
你应该是我理性的声音！
You're my best friend!
你是我最好的朋友！
I confided in you in this!
这件事我已经向你吐露过！
This is your fault!
这是你的错！
You put these thoughts in my head!" And I was so angry, I just started screaming at him in the middle of the street.
你把这些想法塞进我的脑子里！”我非常生气，在街中央对他尖叫。
And I was bawling like a crazy person and just saying, "What is this feeling?" And he's like, "Benny, you're feeling crushed, like you're heart's breaking." He's like, "This is good.
我像个疯子一样嚎啕大哭，只是说：“这是什么感觉？”他说，“本尼，你感觉很沮丧，就像你的心都碎了。”他说：“这很好。
You're supposed to feel this.
你应该感受到这一点。
It's a little late." And I'm like, "Don't tell me how to feel!
有点晚了。”我想，“别告诉我感觉如何！
I want to go home.
我想回家。
I don't even want to stay in Peru anymore." And Parker just sat.
我什至不想再留在秘鲁了。”帕克只是坐着。
And I said, "Tell me this.
我说：“告诉我这个。
Have you known all along that this was going to happen?" He goes, "Well, to be honest, I didn't know you were going to do that.
你一直都知道这会发生吗？”他说，“好吧，说实话，我不知道你会这么做。
But of course I knew he was straight.
但我当然知道他是直的。
I tried to tell you one time.
有一次我试图告诉你。
You got a little weird about it.
你对此有点奇怪。
And I just decided in my head, Benny needs to experience this." I cried for hours.
我在心里决定，本尼需要经历这个。”我哭了几个小时。
And Parker was just listening to me.
帕克只是在听我说话。
And then he was the one that said, "You imagine, Benny, feeling this but having someone reciprocating it." And I said, "You mean, with a gay guy?" And he said, "Well, yeah, because that's the only guy that's going to do that with you." And then it was this journey to coming out of the closet.
然后他说：“你想象一下，本尼，有这种感觉，但有人回报。”我说，“你是说，和一个同性恋？”他说：“嗯，是的，因为这是唯一会和你一起做这件事的人。”然后就是这段出柜之旅。
That was what cracked it opened, you know?
这就是它打开的原因，你知道吗？
Benny now lives in New York City.
本尼现在住在纽约市。
He has a boyfriend.
他有男朋友了。
[MUSIC - "I'M PUTTING ALL MY EGGS IN ONE BASKET" BY BOB WILLS AND HIS TEXAS PLAYBOYS]
[音乐 - 鲍勃·威尔斯 (Bob Wills) 和他的德克萨斯花花公子乐队的《我把所有鸡蛋放在一个篮子里》]
Our program is produced today by Jonathan Menjivar with Ben Calhoun, Sarah Koenig, Miki Meek, Lisa Pollack, Brian Reed, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
我们今天的节目由 Jonathan Menjivar 与 Ben Calhoun、Sarah Koenig、Miki Meek、Lisa Pollack、Brian Reed、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 共同制作。
Our senior producer's Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人朱莉·斯奈德。
Seth Lind is our production manager.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的生产经理。
Emily Condon's our office manager.
艾米丽·康登是我们的办公室经理。
Music help from Damien Graef and Rob Geddis.
Damien Graef 和 Rob Geddis 提供音乐帮助。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Paul Hoffman, who you heard at the beginning of the program, is president of the Liberty Science Center.
[致谢] 保罗·霍夫曼（Paul Hoffman），您在节目开始时听到的，是自由科学中心的主席。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
WBEZ management oversight for our program by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia.
我们的老板 Torey Malatia 先生对我们的项目进行 WBEZ 管理监督。
You know, you really should have seen him at the WBEZ all-staff Halloween party in his pigtails.
你知道，你真的应该在 WBEZ 全员万圣节派对上看到他扎着辫子。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of this American life.
下周我们将带来更多有关美国生活的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。