445: Ten Years In - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #445 | September 9, 2011 445: Ten Years In Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 445 集 | 2011 年 9 月 9 日 445：十年注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass OK, just to put this out there, perhaps you are somebody who has not been looking forward to the inevitable deluge of 10th anniversary 9/11 coverage on basically every media outlet that exists.
序言 Ira Glass 好吧，我先说一下，也许您并没有期待着几乎所有现有媒体都会不可避免地对 9/11 十周年进行大量报道。
But think for a second about what it's like for the 9/11 families and survivors.
但想一想 9/11 的家庭和幸存者的感受。
Like Lynn Simpson.
就像林恩·辛普森一样。
She was on the first show we did after 9/11, telling the story of working on the 89th floor of World Trade Center One when the planes hit, and how she made it down the stairs and out of the building with about a minute to spare.
她参加了 9/11 事件后我们做的第一场演出，讲述了飞机撞击时在世贸中心一号 89 层工作的故事，以及她如何在大约一分钟的空闲时间下下楼梯并走出大楼。
I caught up with her last week.
我上周联系了她。
I wish that people wouldn't make such a big deal about the 10th anniversary.
我希望人们不要对十周年这么大惊小怪。
And I'm very happy when September 12 comes along.
当 9 月 12 日到来时，我感到非常高兴。
You're saying in a way that, for you as somebody who escaped from the World Trade Center, you'd pretty much rather not be looking back so intensely each year.
你在某种程度上是在说，对于你来说，作为一个逃离世贸中心的人，你宁愿每年都如此强烈地回顾过去。
If that's so, then who are these commemorations for?
如果是这样，那么这些纪念活动是为了谁呢？
Well, I don't know.
嗯，我不知道。
Ira Glass Marian Fontana's husband Dave was a firefighter killed in the south tower.
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 玛丽安·丰塔纳 (Marian Fontana) 的丈夫戴夫 (Dave) 是一名消防员，在南塔中丧生。
She was also on our show years ago, and she told me last week when we checked with her that she and her son are going to spend 9/11 not at any of the public events, but instead they're going to visit the spot at a park where Dave proposed to her years ago and where she later scattered his ashes.
几年前她也参加过我们的节目，上周当我们向她询问时，她告诉我，她和她的儿子不会参加任何公共活动，而是会去公园里参观戴夫多年前向她求婚的地方，以及后来她撒下他的骨灰的地方。
And then they're going to have a quiet family dinner together.
然后他们会一起安静地吃一顿家庭晚餐。
See, I was wondering if when these anniversaries come up, if it's comforting or if it's more like, OK, let's relive the worst day of your life?
你看，我想知道当这些周年纪念日到来时，这是否令人感到安慰，或者更像是，好吧，让我们重温你一生中最糟糕的一天？
Yeah, it's complicated.
是的，这很复杂。
I always feel like "never forget" is such an odd-- you know, the kind of phrase of 9/11, where it's like, "never forget," but to heal, you have to forget.
我总觉得“永远不会忘记”很奇怪——你知道，就像9/11那样的短语，就像“永远不会忘记”，但要治愈，你必须忘记。
Here we are, 9/11.
9/11，我们到了。
And who exactly wants to watch the footage from that day again, think about it all over again?
谁又愿意再看一遍那天的录像，再想一想呢？
And we thought today on our program, rather than look back at that one day in 2001, it would be a lot nicer to spend most of this hour looking at where we have come since.
我们今天思考我们的计划，而不是回顾 2001 年的某一天，花这个小时的大部分时间看看我们从那时起我们所取得的成就会好得多。
After all, 9/11 happened to us, but the decade since, we created that ourselves.
毕竟，9/11 发生在我们身上，但此后的十年是我们自己创造的。
And this seems like a good time to measure just how far we've come.
现在似乎是衡量我们已经走了多远的好时机。
And to do that, we have reached out today to some of the interviewees who have appeared on our show in the last decade, whose lives seem to tell some piece of the story of what the world has gone through since September 11.
为此，我们今天联系了过去十年中出现在我们节目中的一些受访者，他们的生活似乎讲述了自 9 月 11 日以来世界所经历的一些故事。
We checked in with them again to see what has happened to them.
我们再次与他们核实，看看他们发生了什么事。
And I have to say, it has been really interesting this week, putting this together and hearing what has happened and where they are in their lives now.
我不得不说，这周真的很有趣，把这些放在一起，听听发生了什么以及他们现在的生活状况。
It's been a decade, but as you'll hear, for most of them it still somehow feels like they are at the beginning of something in their lives, something they are still figuring out.
已经过去了十年，但正如你所听到的，对于他们中的大多数人来说，不知怎的，他们仍然感觉自己正处于生活中某些事情的开始，一些他们仍在弄清楚的事情。
We bring you their stories on this 10th anniversary of 9/11.
在 9/11 十周年之际，我们为您带来他们的故事。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life , distributed by Public Radio International.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Kabul, Kabul, Kabul, Kabul, Kabul Chameleon.
第一幕，喀布尔，喀布尔，喀布尔，喀布尔，喀布尔变色龙。
Hello, hello.
你好，你好。
OK, today is September the 11th, 2002.
好的，今天是 2002 年 9 月 11 日。
It's actually my last night in Peshawar.
这实际上是我在白沙瓦的最后一晚。
I'm at a relative's house.
我在亲戚家。
A lot of people have been affected by September 11, but our family's literally turned upside-down.
9 月 11 日这一天，很多人都受到了影响，但我们家却发生了天翻地覆的变化。
Like, even me, my whole plans and my life has changed.
就像我一样，我的整个计划和我的生活都改变了。
When September 11, 2001 happened, Hyder Akbar was 16.
2001 年 9 月 11 日发生时，海德·阿克巴 (Hyder Akbar) 16 岁。
His dad ran a hip-hop clothing store in the San Francisco area.
他的父亲在旧金山地区经营一家嘻哈服装店。
Hyder thought that maybe he was going to become a mortgage broker like his older brother someday.
海德认为也许有一天他会像他哥哥一样成为一名抵押贷款经纪人。
But his dad and some of his uncles had fought the Soviets in Afghanistan, driving the Soviets out back in 1989.
但他的父亲和他的一些叔叔曾在阿富汗与苏联人作战，并于 1989 年将苏联人赶了出去。
His family fled the country when the Taliban came to power, until September 11.
塔利班上台后，他的家人逃离了该国，直到 9 月 11 日。
After Americans drove the Taliban from the capital, his father's old friend, Hamid Karzai, got in touch.
在美国人将塔利班赶出首都后，他父亲的老朋友哈米德·卡尔扎伊取得了联系。
Karzai appears in a family photo album in a picture that was taken at Disneyland maybe 30 years ago, baby-faced, standing next to Goofy.
卡尔扎伊出现在家庭相册中的一张大约 30 年前在迪士尼乐园拍摄的照片中，他长着一张娃娃脸，站在高飞旁边。
Now Karzai was leading the new interim government in Afghanistan, and he convinced Hyder's dad to sell his business and move back to help out.
现在卡尔扎伊正在领导阿富汗新的临时政府，他说服海德的父亲卖掉他的生意并搬回来帮忙。
And Hyder, who'd never been in Afghanistan but who'd been raised on stories about all the family friends and family members who were heroes in the struggle, he wanted to go, too.
海德从未去过阿富汗，但他是在所有家庭朋友和家人都是斗争英雄的故事中长大的，他也想去。
And he recorded himself on those trips for our show.
他还为我们的节目录制了自己的旅行经历。
Radio producer Susan Burton took dozens of hours of recordings and turned them into two programs, one documenting what happened on Hyder's first trip in 2002, when his father was the spokesman for the new Afghan government, and the second program the following year, when Hyder's dad was now the governor of a particularly unstable area called the Kunar Province.
电台制作人苏珊·伯顿 (Susan Burton) 录制了数十个小时的录音，并将其制作成两个节目，其中一个节目记录了海德 2002 年第一次旅行时发生的事情，当时他的父亲是阿富汗新政府的发言人，第二个节目则记录了次年的情况，当时海德的父亲现在是一个特别不稳定的库纳尔省的省长。
Over the course of these two hours, we hear Hyder grow up.
在这两个小时的过程中，我们听到了海德的成长。
When he first arrives in Kabul, he is completely green, thrilled, in this fanboyish way, just to be there.
当他第一次到达喀布尔时，他完全是绿色的，兴奋的，以一种狂热的方式，只是为了在那里。
Today was a really interesting day.
今天真是有趣的一天。
I went to the palace today, and it was this incredible-- It was almost like going through a movie.
我今天去了皇宫，真是太不可思议了——就像在看电影一样。
Like, there's all the gates, and how they open and the huge locks.
就像，有所有的门，以及它们如何打开和巨大的锁。
Almost looks like you're visiting some place in Disneyland or Universal Studios.
看起来就像您正在参观迪士尼乐园或环球影城的某个地方。
But it was the real thing.
但这是真实的事情。
You have infamous war lords walking this way, and famous ministers walking that way.
这条路上有臭名昭著的军阀，那里有著名的大臣。
It was pretty exciting.
这真是太令人兴奋了。
I mean, it's like the equivalent, I think, of a Lollapalooza or something, going backstage and getting to meet all these rock stars going back and forth.
我的意思是，我认为这就像 Lollapalooza 或类似的东西，到后台去见所有这些来回的摇滚明星。
It was kind of like that.
有点像那样。
And as nerdy and dorky as that sounds, that's pretty much how it was like for me.
尽管这听起来很书呆子和傻乎乎的，但对我来说这就是这样的。
On these two trips, carrying a tape recorder, Hyder sees a lot.
在这两次旅行中，海德带着录音机见识了很多。
He works as an interpreter for the US military, including translating for a man, Abdul Wali, who dies while in custody after being interrogated by the Americans.
他为美军担任翻译，包括为阿卜杜勒·瓦利（Abdul Wali）担任翻译，阿卜杜勒·瓦利在被美国人审问后在拘留期间死亡。
He gets caught in a firefight.
他在交火中被困。
He walks through the devastation after a car bomb.
他走过汽车炸弹爆炸后的废墟。
He befriends people, especially his driver and companion, Sartor.
他与人交朋友，尤其是他的司机兼同伴萨托。
And he vows to come back.
他发誓一定会回来。
Can you hear me?
你能听到我吗？
Ira Glass Yeah, yeah I can hear you.
艾拉·格拉斯 是的，是的，我能听到你的声音。
Can you hear me?
你能听到我吗？
Yes, yes, I can hear you.
是的，是的，我能听到你的声音。
Ira Glass Where are you right now?
艾拉·格拉斯 你现在在哪里？
I'm in Kabul.
我在喀布尔。
Ira Glass Are you in an office?
Ira Glass 您在办公室吗？
Are you in your house?
你在你家吗？
Yeah, I'm in my house, which also doubles up as my office.
是的，我在我的房子里，它也兼作我的办公室。
I reached Hyder last week by phone in Afghanistan.
上周我通过电话联系了阿富汗的海德。
Some quick facts-- he's 26.
一些简单的事实——他 26 岁。
After creating two amazing radio shows and writing a book with his producer, Susan Burton, he transferred from the community college that he was at to Yale University, where he graduated from.
在创作了两部精彩的广播节目并与制片人苏珊·伯顿 (Susan Burton) 一起写了一本书后，他从所在的社区学院转到了耶鲁大学，并在那里毕业。
He now lives on the third floor of this house that I reached him at, and on the second floor is the NGO, the Non-Governmental Organization that he created, basically to go out and survey Afghans to understand what they're thinking and what they want, for international aid groups and others who are working in the country.
他现在住在我联系到的这所房子的三楼，二楼是他创建的非政府组织，即非政府组织，基本上是为了出去调查阿富汗人，了解他们在想什么，想要什么，为国际援助团体和其他在该国工作的人服务。
Also living in Hyder's house these days, Sartor, his friend, and Yusef, who's one of his father's old aides and a close family friend.
这些天也住在海德家里的还有他的朋友萨托和尤瑟夫，尤瑟夫是他父亲的老助手之一，也是一位亲密的家庭朋友。
Hyder's uncle, Rauf Mama, comes and stays with them sometimes, too.
海德的叔叔拉乌夫妈妈有时也会过来和他们住在一起。
Rauf Mama's been driven from his own home near the Pakistan border.
拉乌夫妈妈被赶出了巴基斯坦边境附近的自己的家。
So I'm just going to launch right in, OK?
所以我要立即启动，好吗？
I have, like, a million questions here.
我这里有一百万个问题。
You ready?
你准备好了吗？
So when you were last on the radio show in 2003, the final thing you were talking about at the end of that show was about your uncle, Rauf Mama, who is a war hero from fighting the Soviets and has one eye.
所以当你2003年最后一次参加广播节目时，你在节目结束时谈论的最后一件事是关于你的叔叔拉乌夫妈妈，他是一位与苏联作战的战争英雄，只有一只眼睛。
And then at the end of that show, you talked about this.
然后在那个节目结束时，你谈到了这个。
It's probably about 1 o'clock at night right now.
现在大概是晚上1点左右。
I couldn't sleep tonight.
今晚我无法入睡。
It's because that interview was so emotional.
因为那次采访太感人了。
You know, when I asked him what was the hardest part ever of everything you've been through, he mentioned having to sleep next to this friend just hours after he was killed, and the hail pouring down on him and him trembling in that cold.
你知道，当我问他你所经历的一切中最困难的部分是什么时，他提到在这位朋友被杀几个小时后，他不得不睡在他旁边，冰雹倾盆而下，他在寒冷中颤抖。
One of the reasons I wanted to interview my uncle before I left was because I knew it was going to really have a lasting impression on me.
我想在离开之前采访我叔叔的原因之一是因为我知道这会给我留下深刻的印象。
And just in case I ever get soft and I get like, maybe I should just stay in America, or maybe, you know, that image of him having to do that will at least keep me going for another five years.
以防万一我变得软弱，我会想，也许我应该留在美国，或者，你知道，他必须这样做的形象至少会让我再坚持五年。
And we have a really close relationship.
我们的关系非常密切。
And he really has high hopes for me.
而且他确实对我寄予厚望。
And he tells me all the time that he thinks I'm so smart and that I'm going to do so much for this country.
他一直告诉我，他认为我很聪明，我将为这个国家做很多事情。
I'm going to be pulled back here.
我会被拉回这里。
I know it.
我知道这。
I just can't let my uncle down.
我就是不能让叔叔失望。
So you were a teenager when you recorded that.
所以当你录制这个的时候你还是个青少年。
What's it like to hear that now?
现在听到这个感觉怎么样？
Disappointing.
令人失望。
It's disappointing to hear that, because I feel like, in those years, although there was a lot of problems to deal with, it was still about, how are we going to turn things around?
听到这个消息我很失望，因为我觉得，那些年，虽然有很多问题需要处理，但仍然是，我们要如何扭转局面？
How is Afghanistan going to have a better future?
阿富汗如何拥有更好的未来？
There was still an excitement in the air about the country moving forward.
空气中仍然弥漫着国家前进的兴奋气氛。
And now it's more about how to make sure that it doesn't go completely to [BLEEP] again.
现在更多的是如何确保它不会再次完全进入[BLEEP]。
It's sobering hearing Hyder talk like this.
听到海德这样说话真是发人深省。
If there was going to be one optimist left in Kabul, it would be Hyder.
如果喀布尔还剩下一位乐观主义者，那就是海德。
But he says lots of people there now are wondering which side is going to win in Afghanistan, the Americans, the Taliban.
但他说，现在很多人都想知道哪一方会在阿富汗获胜，是美国人还是塔利班。
Who?
WHO？
Kunar Province, where his dad was governor, is in terrible shape, and the Taliban are so strong there that Hyder says that nobody wants to be seen as working with the Americans anymore.
他父亲担任省长的库纳尔省的情况很糟糕，塔利班在那里非常强大，海德说没有人愿意再被视为与美国人合作。
You can hear in Hyder's voice how different this is, and how different he is compared to when he first got there.
你可以从海德的声音中听出这是多么的不同，以及与他第一次到达那里时相比有多么的不同。
I asked him on the phone about what life in Kabul is like these days.
我在电话里问他现在喀布尔的生活怎么样。
Back in 2002, he remarked on how he spent a month and a half barely ever speaking with a woman or a girl.
早在 2002 年，他就谈到自己在一个半月的时间里几乎没有和女人或女孩说过话。
Here, I'll start counting and I'll look for a woman's face.
在这里，我将开始数数，并寻找一张女人的脸。
And also, I'll tell you how long it takes me.
而且，我会告诉你我需要多长时间。
Burka, burka, burka, burka, burka.
罩袍，罩袍，罩袍，罩袍，罩袍。
Still no woman.
还是没有女人。
And when he returned in 2003.
当他2003年回国时。
Hyder Akbar Kabul has changed tremendously.
海德尔·阿克巴尔·喀布尔发生了巨大的变化。
Right now there's three girls in front of me.
现在我面前有三个女孩。
All they have is a loose chador, but I see jeans underneath their cloth.
他们只有一件宽松的罩袍，但我看到他们的衣服下面有牛仔裤。
But last year, burkas were probably about 95%.
但去年，罩袍的比例可能约为 95%。
This year, I'd say they've dropped to under a quarter, one out of four.
今年，我想说他们已经下降到四分之一以下，即四分之一。
It's gotten much more serious than that, Ira.
事情比这严重得多，艾拉。
I feel like, at that time, again, because there was some hope there, there were some things that you could kind of look at, things like the burka, as an indication of the change.
我觉得，在那个时候，再次，因为那里有一些希望，有一些你可以看一下的东西，比如罩袍，作为变化的标志。
But when we just got a call a couple hours ago, Sartor being told that three people in his village were kidnapped.
但几个小时前我们刚刚接到电话时，萨托被告知他村里的三人被绑架了。
When Sartor's son, we had to drag-- Sartor's son is 19 years old, 18 years old.
当萨托的儿子时，我们不得不拖——萨托的儿子19岁，18岁。
And he's in Kunar.
他在库纳尔。
And he is exactly of Taliban fighting age, and his father is becoming very worried about him.
他正值塔利班战斗年龄，他的父亲变得非常担心他。
And we have to drag him out and make sure he stays with us here in Kabul, because the Taliban are recruiting him and it's a problem in our home now.
我们必须把他拖出来并确保他留在喀布尔和我们在一起，因为塔利班正在招募他，这现在是我们家里的一个问题。
It's a problem.
这是一个问题。
With Sartor it's a problem.
对于Sartor来说这是一个问题。
With Yusef's kid-- Yusef's kid is 10 years old.
尤瑟夫的孩子——尤瑟夫的孩子已经10岁了。
And one night-- in the village sort of everybody's kind of armed-- so suddenly he heard there's some kind of loud bang at night, once real quick.
有一天晚上——在村子里，每个人都带着武器——突然他听到夜里有某种巨响，声音非常快。
And he ran to go grab the Kalashnikov, and he asked his wife, [UNINTELLIGIBLE], have you seen the Kalashnikov?
然后他跑去拿卡拉什尼科夫冲锋枪，他问他的妻子，[无法理解]，你看到卡拉什尼科夫冲锋枪了吗？
They usually have this place where they hide it.
他们通常有一个隐藏它的地方。
And they looked and the Kalashnikov was missing.
他们一看，卡拉什尼科夫冲锋枪不见了。
So he started investigating it, and found out that, later on, it ended up being his 10-year-old son who had taken it.
于是他开始调查，后来发现是他10岁的儿子拿走了。
And when he asked him why he had taken it, he said, oh, because I'm going to shoot at the Americans, because they're infidels and invaders.
当他问他为什么拿走它时，他说，哦，因为我要向美国人开枪，因为他们是异教徒和侵略者。
And he's 10 years old.
他已经10岁了。
And so Yusef got very worried about his son.
因此尤瑟夫非常担心他的儿子。
And he took the Kalashnikov from him.
然后他从他手中夺走了卡拉什尼科夫冲锋枪。
And after that, he went-- the funny thing is, it kind of gives you a sense of who really has the control there-- he went back to the Taliban themselves, and said, look, my son is 10 years old, and because of all the propaganda and all the stuff that you guys are using here, he's getting riled up and he wants to steals the Kalashnikov and take potshots at Americans.
之后，他走了——有趣的是，这让你感觉到谁真正控制了那里——他回到塔利班自己，说，看，我儿子已经10岁了，因为你们在这里使用的所有宣传和所有东西，他被激怒了，他想偷走卡拉什尼科夫冲锋枪并向美国人开枪。
So can you go and talk to him and say, you know, that the Taliban cut off the hands of people that do uncoordinated attacks, so you can't do anything without permission?
那么你能不能去跟他谈谈，告诉他，塔利班砍掉那些进行不协调袭击的人的手，这样你就不能在未经许可的情况下做任何事情？
Or something like that so he didn't do anything crazy.
或者类似的事情，所以他没有做任何疯狂的事情。
So that's kind of more an example of how much the situation has changed, and I think gives you a better indicator of the momentum and direction of this country than the amount of burkas I've seen.
因此，这更像是情况发生了多大变化的一个例子，我认为，这比我所看到的罩袍数量更能让你了解这个国家的势头和方向。
[DOORBELL RINGING] Sorry, that's our doorbell, and it's really tacky and loud.
[门铃响了] 抱歉，那是我们的门铃，而且又俗气又吵。
Do you need to get that?
你需要得到那个吗？
Hyder Akbar No, I think Sartor's going to check who it is.
Hyder Akbar：不，我想 Sartor 会去查一下是谁。
I told him that I'm going to be busy upstairs.
我告诉他我要去楼上忙。
So I'll be OK.
所以我会没事的。
One of the things that's interesting listening to these shows from 2002 and 2003 is how hopeful everybody is about the new Afghan president, Hamid Karzai.
收听 2002 年和 2003 年这些节目的一个有趣的事情是，每个人都对阿富汗新总统哈米德·卡尔扎伊充满希望。
And you talk, back in those shows, about how you have fond memories of him visiting with your dad when you were little.
在那些节目中，你谈到了小时候他拜访你父亲的美好回忆。
We start one of those shows showing Karzai being very charming shortly after coming to power, speaking to Afghans living in the United States.
我们开始其中一档节目，展示卡尔扎伊在上台后不久与居住在美国的阿富汗人交谈时非常有魅力。
Here's a clip of him at Georgetown University, reading a question from a card.
这是他在乔治城大学读卡片上的问题的片段。
Specifically, how would you suggest that the younger generation of Afghans living in the US and [MUMBLES JOKINGLY].
具体来说，您如何建议生活在美国的年轻一代阿富汗人[开玩笑地咕哝]。
[LAUGHTER] OK, specifically, there are areas in which you have studied.
[笑声] 好的，具体来说，您研究过一些领域。
Those of you who have gone through university and have acquired degrees in various fields-- medicine, engineering, computers, management, banking, business administration, all that-- these are the areas-- Statistics, by the way, we need that, very much.
你们中那些读过大学并获得各个领域学位的人——医学、工程、计算机、管理、银行、工商管理，所有这些——这些都是领域——顺便说一句，我们非常需要统计。
Accounting, auditing, [UNINTELLIGIBLE].
会计、审计、[无法理解]。
In addition to that, if somebody wants to be the president, she or he is also welcome.
除此之外，如果有人想当总统，她或他也是受欢迎的。
So all of you are welcome.
欢迎大家。
[CHEERS AND APPLAUSE] Ira Glass And you, of course, are one of the young people who actually took him up on that call and went back.
[欢呼和掌声] Ira Glass：当然，你是真正接听他的电话并回去的年轻人之一。
So since then, his government, the New York Times-- and this is a news stories, not in editorials-- the New York Times refers to his government as one of the most corrupt in the world.
因此从那时起，他的政府，《纽约时报》——这是新闻报道，而不是社论——《纽约时报》将他的政府称为世界上最腐败的政府之一。
President Obama has called Hamid Karzai unreliable and ineffective.
奥巴马总统称哈米德·卡尔扎伊不可靠且无能。
Secretary of State Clinton says he runs a narcostate.
国务卿克林顿说他经营着一个麻醉品国家。
He faces an internal insurgency.
他面临着内部叛乱。
How have your feelings about Karzai changed over the last decade?
过去十年你对卡尔扎伊的感觉有何变化？
I see Karzai as a sort of very tragic Shakespearean, almost sort of like a King Henry kind of figure.
我认为卡尔扎伊是一位非常悲剧性的莎士比亚人物，几乎有点像亨利国王那样的人物。
I see him as an individual whose intentions and heart was in the right place.
我认为他是一个意图和内心都是正确的人。
You don't see him as corrupt?
你不认为他腐败吗？
Hyder Akbar Yes, I do.
海德·阿克巴 是的，我愿意。
I do see him as corrupt.
我确实认为他腐败。
But I see that corruption more as a weakness rather than a greed.
但我认为腐败更多地是一种弱点，而不是一种贪婪。
I don't think he's hoarding millions and millions of dollars into Swiss bank accounts so that he can live comfortably.
我不认为他将数百万美元存入瑞士银行账户是为了过上舒适的生活。
I think he's just put in a circumstance in which he doesn't know how to deal with it, and he doesn't have the backbone to deal with it.
我认为他只是处于一种不知道如何应对的境地，也没有勇气去应对。
So my father, in 2005, walked out on him and hasn't looked back since.
所以我父亲在 2005 年抛弃了他，从那以后就再也没有回头过。
He said that, I like you as a friend, I like you as an individual, but you're not fit to lead this country.
他说，我喜欢你作为朋友，我喜欢你作为个人，但你不适合领导这个国家。
And I didn't spend my whole life struggling for this country so that I can ruin my name and reputation by being associated with this government.
我一生都在为这个国家而奋斗，这样我就不会因为与这个政府有联系而毁掉我的名声和声誉。
Since then, his dad has been going back and forth between Afghanistan and California.
从那时起，他的父亲就一直往返于阿富汗和加利福尼亚之间。
Hyder, meanwhile, was briefly engaged to somebody who he met at Yale, whose family was from the Middle East.
与此同时，海德与他在耶鲁大学认识的一个人短暂订婚，他的家人来自中东。
And she was willing to move to Afghanistan with him for a few years, but when it became clear to everybody that Hyder intended to stay, even after they had children, even if the country continued to fall apart, at some point he had to decide between her and Afghanistan.
她愿意和他一起搬到阿富汗几年，但当每个人都清楚海德打算留下来时，即使他们有了孩子，即使这个国家继续分崩离析，在某些时候他必须在她和阿富汗之间做出决定。
And he chose Afghanistan.
他选择了阿富汗。
So that's kind of what happened with that.
这就是发生的事情。
I feel like I will have to be paying a price for what I want to do here.
我觉得我必须为我在这里想做的事情付出代价。
I feel like it's something much bigger than me sometimes.
有时我觉得它比我大得多。
And I feel like I can't just run away from it.
而且我觉得我无法逃避它。
Hyder says that he doesn't believe that he's doing much good for the country, just running his NGO.
海德说，他不相信自己为国家做了多少好事，只是在管理他的非政府组织。
And this is another change from who he was back when he was in college and we used to joke with him about how some day he was going to be either the foreign minister of Afghanistan or he would be out fighting in the hills with his uncle.
这是他在大学时的另一个变化，我们常常和他开玩笑，说有一天他要么成为阿富汗外交部长，要么和他的叔叔一起在山上战斗。
Now he's in it for real, and he's become a hard-eyed pragmatist.
现在他真正投入其中，并且成为了一个目光敏锐的实用主义者。
Lately, he said to his old producer, Susan Burton, that he's beginning to wonder if it's possible to be good and also stay relevant in Afghanistan.
最近，他对他的老制片人苏珊·伯顿说，他开始思考是否有可能在阿富汗做好事并保持影响力。
The people who are rising to the top, the people in power, are people with guns and their own armed groups, people who aren't afraid to use violence and intimidation.
那些上升到最高层的人，那些掌权的人，是拥有枪支和自己的武装团体的人，是不害怕使用暴力和恐吓的人。
And with that in mind, Hyder is thinking about basically creating his own militia.
考虑到这一点，海德正在考虑创建自己的民兵。
He would do that by going into the security business with some partners.
他将通过与一些合作伙伴进入安全业务来做到这一点。
He'd want it to be something that would eventually employ hundreds of armed men with their own trucks and their own ammunition so he could actually be a serious player in what happens in the years ahead, with the help and the political connections of his father and his uncles and all their allies.
他希望它最终能雇佣数百名武装人员，拥有自己的卡车和弹药，这样，在他父亲、叔叔和他们所有盟友的帮助和政治关系下，他实际上可以成为未来几年发生的事情的重要参与者。
If he's going to be serious, he says, he needs resources, and he needs guns, and he needs people who shoot guns.
他说，如果他要认真对待，他需要资源，他需要枪支，他需要开枪的人。
And he's conflicted about that.
他对此很矛盾。
Is that something-- I don't like it.
那是吗——我不喜欢它。
To be honest with you, I don't.
老实说，我不这么认为。
But knowing the situation of the country, knowing that it's not very stable right now, knowing that the use of force is something that's respected here, if you want to be relevant in there, you need to have the resources to be relevant.
但了解这个国家的情况，知道现在不太稳定，知道使用武力在这里受到尊重，如果你想在那里发挥作用，你需要拥有相关的资源。
I didn't go to Yale to become a war lord, but I don't know.
我去耶鲁不是为了成为一名军阀，但我不知道。
Given the realities of the situation, given the realities of my goals-- Like in the States, in the States the political systems are a bit more set, like, somebody can emerge politically because you can emerge through the party with [UNINTELLIGIBLE] resources and campaign funding and all that kind of stuff that you need to be politically relevant through the political party system.
考虑到现实情况，考虑到我目标的现实——就像在美国一样，在美国，政治制度更加固定，比如，有人可以在政治上脱颖而出，因为你可以通过政党获得[难以理解的]资源和竞选资金以及通过政党制度在政治上相关的所有东西。
Here, those things don't exist.
在这里，那些东西都不存在。
They're kind of done on force of personality.
他们有点靠个性的力量来完成。
And you have to kind of be able to use your own force of personality to get both sides, whether it's the politics or the resources.
你必须能够利用自己的人格力量来争取双方，无论是政治还是资源。
But you're saying the fear is just basically just, like, who you'd be associating with, that you'd be involved with a lot of kind of--
但你说恐惧基本上只是，比如，你会和谁交往，你会参与很多类型的——
Yeah, yeah, yeah, who you associated with, what you get comfortable with.
是啊，是啊，是啊，你和谁有联系，你对什么感到舒服。
Like, it's kind of a joke, but let's say, 20, 30 years down the line, I am surrounded by armed guards and I have become a dictator and I have become an [BLEEP] to everybody.
就像，这有点像个笑话，但让我们说，20、30 年后，我被武装警卫包围，我已经成为独裁者，我已经成为每个人的[BLEEP]。
I think people can look back at these years and be like, wow, OK, this is where his transformation was beginning.
我认为人们回顾这些年会说，哇，好吧，这就是他转变的开始。
That's what I feel like sort of right now.
这就是我现在的感觉。
And so have you already made this decision?
那么你已经做出这个决定了吗？
No. I don't think I've made a decision yet.
不，我想我还没有做出决定。
I think I'm still weighing the pros and cons.
我觉得我还在权衡利弊。
And have I tested the waters?
我试水了吗？
Yes.
是的。
Am I looking at the possibilities of how this exactly would pan out?
我是否正在考虑这究竟会如何实现的可能性？
Yes.
是的。
I was speaking to this guy that I had met here.
我正在和我在这里遇到的这个人说话。
He's an older guy.
他是个老家伙了。
He's, like, in his '70s.
他大概 70 多岁了。
He's a French guy.
他是一个法国人。
His name is Dr. Gerard Chaliand.
他的名字是杰拉德·查利安德博士。
He has kind of been all over the world.
他已经走遍了世界各地。
I can't name a conflict that he wasn't either a participant or an observer in.
我无法说出他既不是参与者也不是观察员的冲突。
He trained the Mujahideen here in the '80s.
他在八十年代曾在这里训练圣战者组织。
He was with the Palestinians in the '60s and '70s.
他在六十年代和七十年代与巴勒斯坦人在一起。
He was in Eritrea.
他当时在厄立特里亚。
He was in all these various conflicts.
他身处所有这些不同的冲突之中。
So I asked him, you've seen all of these different kinds of movements and you've seen many young motivated individuals like myself in these kind of circumstances, and what would you tell me to do?
所以我问他，你见过所有这些不同类型的运动，也见过很多像我这样有上进心的年轻人在这种情况下，你会告诉我该怎么做？
And he said, lay low.
他说，低调。
Lay low until 2014.
直到2014年才保持低调。
I think that's kind of when people are predicting the end game being played out in this country, where some kind of situation gets established, some kind of understanding between, OK, what exactly the Americans envision here, what exactly do the Taliban.
我认为这就是人们预测这个国家即将上演的最终游戏，某种情况已经建立，某种理解，好吧，美国人在这里到底想做什么，塔利班到底在做什么。
And that's when somebody like you can emerge.
到那时，像你这样的人就会出现。
You don't emerge in this kind of situation, because it's too murky, it's too dirty.
你不会出现在这种情况下，因为它太阴暗、太肮脏。
Just stay alive, he said.
只要活着就可以了，他说。
Just stay alive until 2014.
就这样活到2014年吧。
And he told me that that's not going to be an easy task for you.
他告诉我这对你来说不是一件容易的事。
Hyder Akbar in Kabul.
海德·阿克巴在喀布尔。
The book that he wrote with Susan Burton when he was still here in the States is called Come Back to Afghanistan.
当他还在美国时，他与苏珊·伯顿（Susan Burton）合写了一本名为《回到阿富汗》的书。
Act Two, In the Garden of the Unknown Unknowns.
第二幕，在未知的未知花园里。
Marian Fontana, who you heard from a little bit at the beginning of the show, had the experience after 9/11 of going from a normal life to suddenly finding herself at events with the mayor and her senators and the governor.
玛丽安·丰塔纳（Marian Fontana），你在节目开始时就听说过，在 9/11 之后，她经历了从正常生活到突然发现自己与市长、参议员和州长一起参加活动的经历。
She met President Bush three times.
她曾三次会见布什总统。
She was interviewed everywhere.
她到处都接受采访。
This is because, after her husband Dave died in 9/11-- he was a firefighter-- she started an organization that's now called the September 11th Families' Association.
这是因为，在她的丈夫戴夫于 9/11 去世后（他是一名消防员），她成立了一个组织，现在称为“9 月 11 日家庭协会”。
And she was heavily involved in the politics that followed, and especially in trying to get better pay for New York firefighters.
她积极参与随后的政治活动，尤其是试图为纽约消防员争取更高的报酬。
We had her on the radio show back in 2005 to tell a few, truthfully, incredible stories about what it was like in this new life that she found herself in.
2005 年，我们让她在广播节目中讲述了一些真实的、令人难以置信的故事，讲述了她在新生活中的感受。
And we only have time to play a part of one of those stories here.
我们只有时间在这里扮演其中一个故事的一部分。
This story takes place two years after 9/11, on the anniversary.
这个故事发生在 9/11 两年后的周年纪念日。
9/11 also happens to be her wedding anniversary.
9/11 也恰好是她的结婚纪念日。
And there was a small event at the White House that year.
那年白宫有一个小活动。
And the vice president of her organization, her friend, Lee, who was a firefighter and who lost a firefighter son, thought it would be helpful for them to go.
她的组织的副总裁、她的朋友李是一名消防员，失去了一个消防员的儿子，她认为离开对他们会有帮助。
But Marian didn't want to go.
但玛丽安不想去。
I did not feel comfortable with this administration at all and what they were doing.
我对这届政府和他们的所作所为感到完全不舒服。
Right.
正确的。
Oh yeah, were already in Iraq.
哦，是的，已经在伊拉克了。
And so I felt very uncomfortable.
所以我感觉很不舒服。
I said, oh, you don't want me to go.
我说，哦，你不想让我去。
And he always teased me about having a big mouth and saying the wrong thing at the wrong time.
他还总是嘲笑我嘴巴大，在错误的时间说错误的话。
And he said, no, I absolutely want to go with you.
他说，不，我绝对想和你一起去。
Lee told her that they needed to go because they had to talk with New York Governor Pataki and he was going to be at this dinner.
李告诉她，他们需要离开，因为他们必须与纽约州州长帕塔基交谈，而他将参加这次晚宴。
And so she went.
她就这样走了。
He told me it was formal, so I put on this sparkling blue gown.
他告诉我这是正式的，所以我穿上了这件闪闪发光的蓝色礼服。
And we arrive at the White House and go through this elaborate security system.
我们到达白宫并通过这个复杂的安全系统。
And I walk out into the Rose Garden and everyone's wearing business attire, black suits, including the women in brown suits.
我走进玫瑰园，每个人都穿着商务装、黑色西装，包括穿着棕色西装的女士。
And I'm in this sparkling blue dress that I wore at my sister's wedding.
我穿着我在姐姐婚礼上穿的这件闪闪发光的蓝色连衣裙。
And I just saw all the Secret Service men kind of-- I could just imagine what they whispering into their lapels, like, whore in the blue dress has just entered the garden.
我刚刚看到所有特工人员——我可以想象他们在翻领上低声说些什么，就像穿蓝色裙子的妓女刚刚进入花园一样。
And I was furious at Lee.
我对李很生气。
He's in his late 50s and short.
他五十多岁了，个子不高。
And I felt like I looked like his hooker, basically.
我觉得我基本上就像他的妓女。
So we went in.
于是我们就进去了。
Which is really not a good feeling in the Rose Garden.
在玫瑰园里这种感觉实在不太好。
No, I was so self-conscious.
不，我太自我意识了。
And so I was just playing with the dog, because I'm just-- Lee made me promise not to do anything inappropriate, not to talk to anybody about my liberal politics.
所以我只是在和狗玩，因为我只是——李让我保证不会做任何不恰当的事情，不会和任何人谈论我的自由主义政治。
And then I'm looking around this odd conglomeration of people, including Maury Povich and Condoleezza Rice and the Rumsfelds.
然后我环视这群奇怪的人，包括莫里·波维奇（Maury Povich）、康多莉扎·赖斯（Condoleezza Rice）和拉姆斯菲尔德家族。
And I felt so uncomfortable, I just wanted to go home.
我感到很不舒服，我只想回家。
I really was feeling kind of emotional about the anniversary, and feeling like a hypocrite being there.
我真的对周年纪念日感到有点激动，感觉自己像个伪君子一样。
And so we got up to Governor Pataki, and we chatted for a while and said what we needed to say, and then I was ready to go home.
所以我们走到帕塔基州长面前，我们聊了一会儿，说了我们需要说的话，然后我就准备回家了。
But then there was a buffet dinner and a film to see, so we had our buffet dinner.
但后来有自助晚餐和电影要看，所以我们吃了自助晚餐。
And I sat all the way in the back of the garden at this farthest picnic table in the back.
我一直坐在花园后面最远的野餐桌旁。
And I'm eating quietly, waiting for Lee to join me.
我静静地吃着饭，等待李和我一起。
And I hear someone say, is this seat taken?
我听到有人说，这个座位有人吗？
And I look up and it's Donald Rumsfeld and his wife, and they want to sit at the table with me.
我抬头一看，是唐纳德·拉姆斯菲尔德和他的妻子，他们想和我一起坐在桌旁。
And I was like, no, nobody's sitting here, go ahead.
我当时想，不，没有人坐在这里，继续吧。
So they sat down, and Lee joined me.
于是他们坐下来，李也加入了我。
And of course, Lee, having served in Vietnam and having about 28 medals on his Class A firefighter uniform, immediately got into the conversation.
当然，曾在越南服役并在他的 A 级消防员制服上佩戴了大约 28 枚奖牌的李立即加入了谈话。
And Donald Rumsfeld had just gotten back from Afghanistan, so they were chatting about all this stuff.
唐纳德·拉姆斯菲尔德刚刚从阿富汗回来，所以他们正在谈论所有这些事情。
And I decided I would be a good friend to Lee and just talk to his wife, Joyce, about his daughter's rock climbing.
我决定成为李的好朋友，并与他的妻子乔伊斯谈论他女儿的攀岩。
So that's what I was, being good.
所以我就是这样，做个好人。
But half an ear was listening to their talk.
但有一半的耳朵在听他们的谈话。
And I was getting more and more upset.
我越来越心烦意乱。
And I could feel my face turning red.
我能感觉到我的脸变红了。
And then, finally, Rumsfeld turned and said, "Marian, what do you think about all of this?" And I said, "Oh, you really don't want to know what I think." And he's like, "No, no, I actually really do.
最后，拉姆斯菲尔德转身说道：“玛丽安，你对这一切有何看法？”我说：“哦，你真的不想知道我的想法。”他说：“不，不，我真的很喜欢。
I'm curious what you think." And I look at Lee to get permission if this is OK, and he nods.
我很好奇你的想法。”我看着李，寻求许可，如果可以的话，他点点头。
And I said, "Well, actually I think you used the death of my husband to go into a country you have no business being in." It felt kind of like a cop-out at the time, because there was so much more I wanted say.
我说：“好吧，实际上我认为你利用我丈夫的死进入了一个你无权进入的国家。”当时感觉有点像逃避，因为我还有很多话想说。
Because there's some more direct thing that you can say than, you're taking the death of my husband and using it to start an inappropriate war.
因为你可以说一些更直接的事情，比如你利用我丈夫的死来发动一场不恰当的战争。
What is the mean version of that?
那个版本的意思是什么？
Like, what were you holding back?
比如，你在压抑什么？
No, I think I was actually being good.
不，我认为我实际上表现得很好。
I think if Lee hadn't kicked me under the table, I probably could have said more.
我想如果李没有在桌子底下踢我，我可能会说更多。
And everything kind of got quiet.
一切都变得安静了。
Rumsfeld nodded, and he said, "Thank you," and turned back to Lee and they continued their conversation.
拉姆斯菲尔德点点头，说道：“谢谢你。”然后转身面向李，他们继续谈话。
Soon, there was a screening of a 9/11 documentary, and so they went to this tiny screening room in the White House.
很快，有一部9/11纪录片放映，他们就来到了白宫这个小小的放映室。
She's one row behind the president.
她在总统后面一排。
And then so I was kind of up against the wall, and Lee was sitting next to me, and Condoleezza Rice, and some other guy.
然后我就陷入了困境，李坐在我旁边，还有康多莉扎·赖斯和其他一些人。
And then the film began, and I didn't even think about what the film was about.
然后电影开始了，我什至没有想到这部电影是关于什么的。
And the screen opens and it's the towers burning, and the shaky cameras filming it.
屏幕打开，塔楼在燃烧，摇晃的摄像机正在拍摄这一切。
And I lost it like I've never lost it publicly in my life.
我失去了它，就像我一生中从未公开失去过它一样。
I just started almost like having an epileptic seizure of grief, sobbing really loud.
我刚开始就像悲伤的癫痫发作一样，大声抽泣。
And I had to get out of there.
我必须离开那里。
And so I literally just stood up like a hysterical woman, which I'm not but suddenly became, and started clawing my way out of the row.
所以我真的像一个歇斯底里的女人一样站起来，我不是但突然变成了这样，然后开始从队伍中挣脱出来。
And I stepped on Condoleeza Rice's foot.
我踩到了康多莉扎·赖斯的脚。
And they had pulled a curtain over the door, and I couldn't find the knob.
他们在门上拉上了窗帘，我找不到把手。
And I'm, like, at the door, kind of shaking the curtains, and Lee's behind me trying to find the door.
我就在门口，摇动窗帘，李在我身后试图找到门。
And do you think it's just the combination of being in the most alien environment possible and then suddenly just missing your husband so intensely, like it's all coming together at once, like that's why?
你认为这只是在最陌生的环境中，然后突然如此强烈地想念你的丈夫，就像这一切同时发生一样，就像这就是原因吗？
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Absolutely, that's exactly what happened.
绝对，这正是发生的事情。
And it was the anniversary, and I really wanted to be home with my son.
那天是周年纪念日，我真的很想回家和我的儿子在一起。
And I had that feeling in my stomach, like I made the wrong choice.
我心里有一种感觉，好像我做了错误的选择。
I shouldn't have come down.
我不该下来的。
I talked to Marian again last week.
上周我再次与玛丽安交谈。
She's no longer heading the September 11th Families' Association.
她不再领导 9 月 11 日家庭协会。
She got tired of the politics within the organization, and the bigger politics, too, actually.
她厌倦了组织内部的政治，实际上也厌倦了更大的政治。
And she told me that she started to feel like she couldn't make this one day in 2001 the rest of her life.
她告诉我，2001 年的某一天，她开始觉得自己无法在余生中实现这一目标。
Her son, Aidan, who was in kindergarten on 9/11, is now 15 years old.
她的儿子艾丹 (Aidan) 于 9/11 上幼儿园，现年 15 岁。
And she and I talked about what these anniversaries are like for him.
她和我谈论了这些周年纪念日对他来说意味着什么。
For him, it's harder now that he's older and understands it.
对他来说，现在更难了，因为他年纪大了，也明白了这一点。
I think he was so young and didn't really comprehend what was happening.
我认为他太年轻了，并没有真正理解发生了什么。
And I kind of kept things on a very simple, easy-to-understand scale for him.
我让他把事情保持在一个非常简单、易于理解的范围内。
And I avoided letting him see the images of 9/11.
我避免让他看到 9/11 的图像。
I never took him to Ground Zero.
我从来没有带他去归零地。
I really tried to protect him from a lot of the violence of 9/11.
我真的尽力保护他免受 9/11 的暴力侵害。
That said, now that he's older and he's much more political and interested in politics, he has a lot of questions.
也就是说，现在他年纪大了，对政治更加关心和感兴趣，他有很多问题。
And I try to answer them as best as I can.
我会尽力回答他们的问题。
But I know the bin Laden capture was a very hard day for him at school.
但我知道抓获本·拉登对他在学校来说是非常艰难的一天。
All the kids were talking about it, congratulating him, and he really had a hard time wrapping his head around that.
所有的孩子都在谈论这件事，祝贺他，而他真的很难理解这一点。
Yeah, I read you wrote about that in salon.com back when it happened in May.
是的，我在五月份看到你在沙龙网站上写过这件事。
And you wrote that, when he went off to school the morning after-- bin Laden was killed on a Sunday, so on Monday he went to school-- and that morning, when you dropped him off, he said he felt like a big weight off of his shoulders.
你写道，当他第二天早上去上学时——本拉登在周日被杀，所以周一他去上学——那天早上，当你送他下车时，他说他感觉肩上卸下了沉重的负担。
And then you wrote, a little after 1:00, Aidan called.
然后你写道，1:00 刚过，艾丹打来电话。
You wrote he was uncharacteristically upset.
你写到他异常地心烦意乱。
He wanted to come home after school.
他想放学后回家。
Everyone's talking about bin Laden.
每个人都在谈论本·拉登。
In every class they're happy he's dead, but I don't feel happy.
每堂课上他们都很高兴他死了，但我却不高兴。
Yeah, he kind of was coming to terms with his own feelings about it.
是的，他已经开始接受自己的感受了。
I think he felt uncomfortable with the celebratory nature of what was happening.
我认为他对正在发生的事情的庆祝性质感到不舒服。
In New York, he had heard that people were down at Ground Zero partying all night.
在纽约，他听说人们整晚都在归零地聚会。
And he said to me, doesn't that make us like them?
他对我说，这难道不会让我们喜欢他们吗？
Yeah, he said it felt a little archa-- I mean, he didn't use the word "archaic," but he said it seemed a little medieval.
是的，他说感觉有点古风——我的意思是，他没有使用“古风”这个词，但他说这看起来有点中世纪。
And I kind of agree.
我有点同意。
In 2005, you said that you felt like you were still kind of a walking symbol for what had happened to the country.
2005年，你说你觉得你仍然是这个国家所发生的事情的一个行走的象征。
Has that worn off, or has that gotten worse as time has gone on?
随着时间的推移，这种情况是否已经消失了，或者变得更糟了？
Well, I think for the people who know me and my friends and family, I don't think they ever saw me that way, thank goodness.
嗯，我认为对于认识我的人以及我的朋友和家人来说，我认为他们从来没有那样看过我，谢天谢地。
But I think it is hard.
但我认为这很难。
I think dating, it makes dating very challenging.
我认为约会，这让约会变得非常具有挑战性。
I had dates cry when I tell them the story, which is a little uncomfortable, to say the least.
当我告诉约会对象这个故事时，他们哭了，至少可以说，这有点不舒服。
I guess it's just not very romantic.
我想这不是很浪漫。
It's not sexy.
这不性感。
No. Marian Fontana I've had a lot of strange and different reactions from different men on dates about--
不，玛丽安·丰塔纳（Marian Fontana），在约会时，不同的男人对我有很多奇怪且不同的反应——
Like what?
比如什么？
Marian Fontana Well, I always hear everyone's 9/11 story, almost always, which I appreciate.
玛丽安·丰塔纳（Marian Fontana）：嗯，我总是听到每个人的 9/11 故事，几乎总是如此，我对此表示赞赏。
It's understandable.
这是可以理解的。
I think they want to connect.
我认为他们想要联系。
Sometimes it feels a little strange, where they'll say, oh, 9/11, yeah, I was in Queens and my subway couldn't get to my stop, and it was really, really hard.
有时感觉有点奇怪，他们会说，哦，9/11，是的，我在皇后区，我的地铁无法到达我的车站，这真的非常非常困难。
And I was like, yeah.
我当时想，是的。
I can't sound like, yeah, that's tough.
我听起来不太像，是的，这很难。
And I guess everything's relative.
我想一切都是相对的。
I try to have patience and understand.
我尝试保持耐心并理解。
But it's sometimes like, really?
但有时又会这样，真的吗？
Did you find yourself, just at some point you just stopped telling strangers?
您是否发现自己在某个时刻不再告诉陌生人？
I have tried that, yes.
我已经尝试过了，是的。
I do try to avoid it.
我确实尽力避免它。
Do you hope that this 10th anniversary, after this the anniversaries will pass with less ceremony and commemoration?
您是否希望这个十周年以及以后的周年纪念日能够少一些仪式和纪念？
You know, I'm not sure.
你知道，我不确定。
I have mixed feelings about it.
我对此百感交集。
I mean, I do like that people remember, but for me, personally, I want to forget.
我的意思是，我确实喜欢人们记住，但对我个人来说，我想忘记。
So it's kind of, I'm not sure.
所以这有点，我不确定。
I feel like 9/11 happened to everybody, and so I think people have this strong draw to come back to Ground Zero or to come back to 9/11 and connect with that.
我觉得 9/11 发生在每个人身上，所以我认为人们有强烈的吸引力回到归零地或回到 9/11 并与之联系。
For me, I like to connect with the kind of moment in time that was so unique after 9/11 where the world kind of came together for a second.
对我来说，我喜欢与 9/11 事件之后独特的时刻联系起来，当时世界有那么一瞬间聚集在一起。
You mean that everybody was getting along for a second?
你的意思是每个人都相处得很好？
Yeah.
是的。
It kind of gave me hope for us as a culture and as a world.
这让我对我们的文化和世界充满了希望。
And I feel like we've moved in the complete opposite direction of that, that we're more divided than we've ever been before.
我觉得我们已经朝着完全相反的方向前进，我们比以往任何时候都更加分裂。
It's just very hard to watch.
只是很难看。
The thing you're describing is the thing you wish people would dwell on.
你所描述的事情是你希望人们关注的事情。
I feel like even that somehow has become part of the standard, blah, blah, blah of this day.
我觉得甚至这已经成为当今标准的一部分，等等，等等。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
I feel like, if you were to tune on to the television coverage that day, I'm sure that there'll be a lot of things in the speeches about the moment after when we all came together.
我觉得，如果你那天收看电视报道，我确信演讲中会有很多关于我们大家聚集在一起后那一刻的内容。
And I feel like there's like--
我感觉就像——
It's almost a cliche.
这几乎是陈词滥调。
Ira Glass It's almost a cliche in a way that's hard to even get back to that feeling.
Ira Glass：这几乎是陈词滥调，甚至很难回到那种感觉。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
And yet, anyone who was involved, when I mention that, they nod vigorously because they do remember that.
然而，任何参与其中的人，当我提到这一点时，他们都会用力点头，因为他们确实记得这一点。
And it was very fleeting.
而且它非常短暂。
But I mean, it was so profound.
但我的意思是，它是如此深刻。
I really don't know if I would have made it through that time without having had the kind of whole world wrap their arms around me, is what it felt like.
我真的不知道如果没有整个世界都用双臂拥抱我，我是否能度过那段时间，就是这种感觉。
Marian Fontana.
玛丽安·丰塔纳.
She wrote a book about her experience after 9/11 that is a lot like the story she's telling here on the radio.
她写了一本关于 9/11 事件后的经历的书，这很像她在广播中讲述的故事。
It's called A Widow's Walk.
这就是所谓的“寡妇之行”。
She's now working on a book about her dating experiences since 9/11 called The Middle of the Bed.
她现在正在写一本关于她自 9/11 以来的约会经历的书，名为《床的中间》。
And it's looking for a publisher.
它正在寻找出版商。
Coming up, a story that generated more email than almost anything we have ever broadcast.
即将推出的故事产生的电子邮件数量几乎比我们曾经广播过的任何故事都多。
We return to see what's happened in the years since.
我们回来看看这些年来发生了什么。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today, for the 10th anniversary of 9/11, we are returning to people who we've had on the show during the past decade, people whose lives were changed by 9/11, because we wanted to see what's happened to them as the decade's proceeded.
今天，在 9/11 事件 10 周年之际，我们将回顾过去十年中出现在节目中的人们，他们的生活因 9/11 事件而改变，因为我们想看看随着这十年的推移，他们发生了什么。
We've arrived at Act Three of our show.
我们已经到了节目的第三幕了。
Act Three, Put on a Happy Face.
第三幕，摆出一副幸福的表情。
On 9/11, where were you when that happened?
9/11 发生时你在哪里？
I was actually in war games in Gulfport, Mississippi.
我实际上在密西西比州格尔夫波特参加了战争游戏。
This is reporter Chris Neary talking to John, who was in the Navy back then.
这是记者克里斯·尼里（Chris Neary）与当时在海军服役的约翰的谈话。
What are war games?
什么是战争游戏？
John Playing war.
约翰在玩战争。
You do live fire, stay out in the field for two or three weeks.
你要进行实弹射击，在野外待两到三周。
And at that time, we hadn't even put on our gear or anything.
那时，我们甚至还没有穿上我们的装备或任何东西。
We're getting ready to go out to the field for war games, and someone ran in and was like, a plane just hit the Twin Towers.
我们正准备去战场进行战争游戏，有人跑进来说，一架飞机刚刚撞上了双子塔。
And we're all looking, we flipping through our manuals, like, what do we do?
我们都在寻找，翻阅手册，比如，我们该怎么办？
What do we do?
我们该怎么办？
What are we supposed to do?
我们应该做什么？
Like, this was a situation that they gave us.
就像，这是他们给我们的情况。
So wait.
所以等等。
So you didn't think it was real?
所以你不认为这是真的吗？
You thought that 9/11 was a war games exercise?
您认为 9/11 是一场战争游戏演习吗？
Yes.
是的。
And they take this stuff kind of serious, the war games.
他们非常严肃地对待战争游戏。
So we don't know what's going on.
所以我们不知道发生了什么事。
We really didn't know what was going on.
我们真的不知道发生了什么事。
Did you realize that this means that I might really be a soldier?
你有没有意识到这意味着我可能真的是一名士兵？
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
They told us to go home and get ready.
他们告诉我们回家做好准备。
John ended up serving in Iraq as a mortarman.
约翰最终在伊拉克担任迫击炮手。
Chris met him once he was out of the service, four years ago in the fall of 2007, while reporting a story on PTSD.
四年前的 2007 年秋天，克里斯退役后遇见了他，当时他正在报道有关创伤后应激障碍 (PTSD) 的故事。
And they hit it off right away.
他们一拍即合。
John was especially open about what he was going through.
约翰对他所经历的事情特别坦诚。
He was direct.
他很直接。
He was funny.
他很有趣。
He answered the sort of questions that reporters ask, which doesn't always happen.
他回答了记者提出的问题，但这种情况并不总是发生。
After Chris filed his story, they talked on and off for months.
克里斯提交了他的故事后，他们断断续续地谈了几个月。
Then one day, after Chris hadn't heard from John in a while, he learned that John had attacked his fiancee in one of those grizzly incidents that had made the news from time to time.
然后有一天，克里斯有一段时间没有收到约翰的消息，他得知约翰袭击了他的未婚妻，这起事件时常成为新闻焦点。
Here's Chris.
这是克里斯。
I read the details in a 20-page police report.
我在一份 20 页的警方报告中读到了详细信息。
John slammed her head into the floor, tried to choke her, and cut her badly.
约翰把她的头撞到地板上，试图掐死她，结果割伤了她。
Then he sat down on the floor of the kitchen with a knife and started slicing at his own chest.
然后他坐在厨房的地板上，拿着刀开始割自己的胸口。
Reading all this, I was shocked.
读完这一切，我感到震惊。
Afterwards, he couldn't remember what he'd done.
事后，他记不起自己做了什么。
That sometimes happens with PTSD.
创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）有时会发生这种情况。
This American Life producer Alex Blumberg and I visited John in jail shortly after the attack.
袭击发生后不久，《美国生活》制片人亚历克斯·布隆伯格和我去监狱探望了约翰。
I remember waking up and here, here, still bleeding.
我记得醒来时，这里，这里，还在流血。
I got stitched up some.
我缝了一些。
And I'm like, who cut me, and all this?
我想，谁砍了我，还有这一切？
They're like, well, you did.
他们就像，好吧，你做到了。
When you learned what happened, when you woke up and people told you what happened, do you remember what your first thought was or your first emotion was, that like--?
当你得知发生了什么事时，当你醒来并且人们告诉你发生了什么事时，你还记得你的第一个想法是什么或你的第一个情绪是什么，就像——？
My first thought was that I killed my daughter.
我的第一个念头是我杀了我的女儿。
Oh, really?
哦真的吗？
John I thought I killed my daughter.
约翰，我以为我杀了我的女儿。
That's my first thought.
这是我的第一个想法。
I know that I was capable of it.
我知道我有能力做到这一点。
In no way was I like, oh no, not me.
我绝不喜欢，哦不，不是我。
Anytime I go outside, especially around people that I like, I try to limit the time.
每当我外出时，尤其是和我喜欢的人在一起时，我都会尽量限制时间。
That's most the time why I'm so paranoid, to keep them safe.
这就是为什么我如此偏执的原因，为了保证他们的安全。
And then it's like, I gotta keep them safe from me.
然后就好像，我必须保证他们远离我。
It was hard to imagine him ever getting back to a normal life.
很难想象他会恢复正常的生活。
I've talked with John just a few times since then.
从那以后我只和约翰谈过几次话。
And when I checked in last month, three years after we'd talked in jail, things were a lot better.
当我上个月报到时，也就是我们在监狱里交谈三年后，情况好多了。
He is, remarkably, on good terms with his ex-fiancee and their daughter.
值得注意的是，他与前未婚妻和女儿的关系非常好。
He has a new girlfriend, a veteran herself.
他有一个新女友，她自己也是一名退伍军人。
And he's pursuing singing and music production, things he dreamed of doing before the military.
他正在追求歌唱和音乐制作，这是他在入伍之前梦想做的事情。
When I got to the studio to talk with John, he was upbeat and funny.
当我到达工作室与约翰交谈时，他既乐观又有趣。
Really?
真的吗？
John Yeah, I don't want people to think I'm crazy.
约翰：是的，我不想让人们认为我疯了。
What do you practice?
你练习什么？
John Being happy, chipper.
约翰很高兴，精神抖擞。
If I have any hope to ever reintegrate into a civilian world, I have to not wear a scowl.
如果我有希望重新融入平民世界，我就不能皱着眉头。
I mean, I have to be friendly.
我的意思是，我必须保持友好。
I know it seems weird.
我知道这看起来很奇怪。
How do you forget how to do it?
怎么忘记怎么做呢？
But it's hard.
但这很难。
Do you feel like now the way you present yourself to others has changed, but on the inside you're still the same as you were in 2008?
你是否觉得现在你向别人展示自己的方式已经改变了，但你的内心仍然和2008年一样？
The same with coping skills.
应对技巧也是如此。
I mean, that's why I'm the same.
我的意思是，这就是为什么我是一样的。
I have the same problems.
我也有同样的问题。
I just know how to mask them.
我只知道如何掩盖它们。
And I know how to comfort myself somewhat without having to go get wasted, without having to just be blackout drunk.
我知道如何在某种程度上安慰自己，而不必喝得酩酊大醉，也不必喝得酩酊大醉。
Small, closed spaces still scare John.
狭小、封闭的空间仍然让约翰感到害怕。
He gets panic attacks.
他会惊恐发作。
It's hard for him to be around people for very long, which makes recording and producing music difficult.
对他来说很难长时间与人相处，这使得录制和制作音乐变得困难。
I mean, I'm pretty sure everybody knows that crazy Vietnam vet that everybody has in their family or just on the block that lives in your neighborhood, and he's out there in his war pants, cutting the grass with his flag up.
我的意思是，我很确定每个人都知道那个疯狂的越战老兵，每个人的家里都有，或者就住在你家附近的街区，他穿着战裤，举着旗帜在外面割草。
You know, that's probably going to be me in 30 years, man, just different color pants.
你知道，这可能会是 30 年后的我，伙计，只是裤子颜色不同而已。
Mine would be tan.
我的会被晒黑。
It doesn't really go away.
它并没有真正消失。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, 9/11 for the US was-- and for you-- ended up being a call to war.
我的意思是，9/11 对于美国以及对于你们来说最终都是一场战争的号召。
How do you think we've done as a country?
您认为我们作为一个国家做得怎么样？
Are you trying to get me in trouble, man?
你是想给我惹麻烦吗，伙计？
Seriously, you ask me that question?
说真的，你问我这个问题？
I am going to ask you that question, yeah.
我要问你这个问题，是的。
I don't know, man.
我不知道，伙计。
I think I don't really like talking political stuff at all.
我想我根本不喜欢谈论政治话题。
I love the military.
我热爱军队。
I love the military, yeah.
我爱军队，是的。
Yeah, I love what the military's done for me.
是的，我喜欢军队为我所做的一切。
But I mean, I feel like I wish that-- I don't know.
但我的意思是，我觉得我希望如此——我不知道。
When people's overseas dying, and I'm sitting here at a radio station talking about how does it feel, I feel like it's not going good.
当人们在海外死去时，我坐在广播电台谈论这种感觉，我觉得情况不太好。
I wish that these guys was home.
我希望这些人都在家。
It's 10 years, man.
已经10年了，伙计。
Act Four, What's Arabic for Fjord?
第四幕，峡湾的阿拉伯语是什么？
In 2007, we told the story of an Iraqi who worked as an interpreter for US forces.
2007年，我们讲述了一名伊拉克人为美军担任翻译的故事。
His name is Basim.
他的名字叫巴西姆。
And like many Iraqis who helped the US, his life was threatened by other Iraqis.
和许多帮助美国的伊拉克人一样，他的生命也受到其他伊拉克人的威胁。
He was sent a DVD that showed a fellow interpreter, a colleague, a guy who he knew, being beheaded, and warning him that he would be next.
他收到了一张 DVD，上面显示一名翻译同事、一名同事、一个他认识的人被斩首，并警告他下一个就是他。
So Basim fled the country with his wife and baby, and ended up in Europe.
于是巴西姆带着妻子和孩子逃离了这个国家，最终来到了欧洲。
At the time that we did our story, we didn't even want to say which country he was in, but now he's feeling safe enough that I can tell you that it is Norway, and he's doing great.
在我们做故事的时候，我们甚至不想说他在哪个国家，但现在他感觉足够安全，我可以告诉你那是挪威，而且他做得很好。
Out of the millions of Iraqis who were made into refugees or displaced by the war, he is possibly in the best possible position.
在数百万因战争而成为难民或流离失所的伊拉克人中，他可能处于最好的境地。
As he says, he went from the most dangerous country in the world to one of the safest.
正如他所说，他从世界上最危险的国家变成了最安全的国家之一。
I can say that, today, me and my family are going through the same hopes and fears or worries, like any other person who was born and raised in a normal country that has not been affected by atrocities like war and an embargo for 12 years.
我可以说，今天，我和我的家人正经历着同样的希望、恐惧或担忧，就像其他在一个正常国家出生和长大的人一样，这个国家已经有12年没有受到战争和禁运等暴行的影响了。
Today we are studying, working, making sure that my son would have a gooder future here in this country.
今天，我们正在学习、工作，确保我的儿子在这个国家拥有更好的未来。
How old is your son now?
你儿子现在几岁了？
Basim He's six years old.
巴西姆 他六岁了。
He has just started in school.
他刚刚开始上学。
Is it sobering to see him speaking better Norwegian than you do?
看到他的挪威语说得比你好，是不是很发人深省？
No, not at all.
不，一点也不。
But it is a little bit annoying sometimes at home.
但有时在家里却有点烦人。
Just yesterday, my son told me that there's another boy at third grade who was running behind him.
就在昨天，我儿子告诉我，有一个三年级的男孩在他后面跑。
And I just couldn't get the real sense of the meaning of the word that he was using.
我就是无法真正理解他所使用的这个词的真正含义。
And I couldn't know whether the other boy was chasing him or whether he's just playing with him.
我不知道另一个男孩是否在追他，或者他只是在玩弄他。
And I just had to read his body language, because I see him, he was telling it as if it was a game.
我只需要阅读他的肢体语言，因为我看到他，他就像在玩游戏一样讲述它。
So then I was kind of, OK, then I don't need to talk to the teacher.
然后我就想，好吧，那我就不需要和老师说话了。
Is your son old enough to ask about Iraq?
你的儿子已经大到可以询问伊拉克的事情了吗？
And if you're going to go back there?
如果你要回到那里呢？
Yes.
是的。
We are trying to give him some answers of which it's enough to satisfy his curiosity, but it is not so harmful for his childhood.
我们试图给他一些答案，这些答案足以满足他的好奇心，但对他的童年没有那么大的伤害。
He asked why?
他问为什么？
Why did we come here if we're not originally born here?
如果我们不是出生在这里，为什么会来到这里？
And I said, we come here because, as you can see, it is easier to live here, then your mother can study further.
我说，我们来这里是因为，正如你所看到的，在这里生活更容易，然后你妈妈可以进一步学习。
You can go to the kindergarten and play with all of these toys.
你可以去幼儿园玩所有这些玩具。
And the people are funny and good and things like that.
这里的人很有趣，也很好，诸如此类。
We didn't tell him that we were actually refugees.
我们没有告诉他我们实际上是难民。
We tell him that we have chosen this place.
我们告诉他我们选择了这个地方。
No, that seems like a nicer story to tell a six-year-old than we were running for our lives.
不，这对于一个六岁的孩子来说似乎比我们逃命的故事更好。
No, we cannot tell him that.
不，我们不能告诉他这个。
Ira Glass Now, I'm calling you on the anniversary of 9/11.
Ira Glass 现在，我在 9/11 周年纪念日给您打电话。
Does this anniversary mean anything to you personally?
这个周年纪念日对您个人来说有什么意义吗？
Do you usually view 9/11/2001 as a day that affected your life?
您通常认为 2001 年 9 月 11 日是影响您生活的一天吗？
Yeah, of course.
是的，当然。
It has affected my life and it has affected the lives of millions of Iraqis, even though we were not involved in those attacks in any possible manner.
它影响了我的生活，也影响了数百万伊拉克人的生活，尽管我们没有以任何可能的方式参与这些袭击。
We're still wondering why it actually affected all our lives and it didn't affect the countries who were actually involved in supporting and financing those terrorists.
我们仍然想知道为什么它实际上影响了我们所有人的生活，却没有影响那些实际参与支持和资助这些恐怖分子的国家。
You mean Saudi Arabia?
你是说沙特阿拉伯吗？
Basim Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Bahrain.
Basim 沙特阿拉伯、阿拉伯联合酋长国、巴林。
What's it been like for you to watch crowds seize democracy in Egypt and Tunisia and Libya after knowing what happened in your country?
在了解了你们国家发生的事情之后，您看到埃及、突尼斯和利比亚的民众夺取民主，感觉如何？
Like, what's it been like for you?
就像，你的情况怎么样？
I was shocked.
我很震惊。
I was thinking in the back of my head, there was a thought that, what if the United States had waited until now?
我心里在想，如果美国等到现在呢？
Maybe Iraq would join the club of countries that decided to liberate themselves from their dictators.
也许伊拉克会加入决定将自己从独裁者手中解放出来的国家俱乐部。
But I always more logically thought that, if it wasn't for the removal of Saddam Hussein, would it be possible for the Tunisian people and the Egyptian people to realize that those presidents are not gods?
但我总是比较逻辑地想，如果不是萨达姆倒台，突尼斯人民和埃及人民是否有可能认识到那些总统不是神？
They can really, if they want to, they can really get rid them.
如果他们愿意的话，他们真的可以摆脱他们。
Let me ask you about something else.
让我问你一些别的事情。
The attacks in Norway this past July which killed 92 people, and which were designed to stir hatred against immigrants and non-Christians in Europe, what was that like for you to witness that?
今年 7 月发生在挪威的袭击造成 92 人死亡，这些袭击旨在煽动对欧洲移民和非基督徒的仇恨，您目睹这一切感觉如何？
The first hours before we actually find out who actually did it, I was really, to be honest, I was a bit afraid, like we don't need another Muslim hero to commit something like that in a peaceful country like Norway.
在我们真正查明是谁干的前几个小时，说实话，我真的有点害怕，就像我们不需要另一个穆斯林英雄在像挪威这样的和平国家犯下这样的事情。
And I was telling my wife that, if it turned out that the perpetrators, the ones who did the attacks in Norway, are Muslims who exactly look like us, we would be at home for two, three days until everything clears out.
我告诉我的妻子，如果事实证明在挪威发动袭击的肇事者是与我们一模一样的穆斯林，我们会在家里呆两三天，直到一切都清楚。
Do you think your son will graduate high school in Norway?
您认为您的儿子会在挪威高中毕业吗？
Do you think you're going to be spending his entire childhood there?
你认为你会在那里度过他的整个童年吗？
Well, yes.
嗯，是的。
I do believe in that, not because I don't want to go back, not because we're not missing Iraq, but because there is no improvement at all.
我确实相信这一点，不是因为我不想回去，不是因为我们没有想念伊拉克，而是因为根本没有任何改善。
So why would I choose this sort of life for my son, not having a clean hospital, not having electricity, having still threats from al-Qaeda and from other religious groups?
那么，为什么我要为我的儿子选择这种生活，没有干净的医院，没有电力，仍然受到基地组织和其他宗教团体的威胁呢？
I would rather decide for my son to go on with his life here.
我宁愿决定让我的儿子在这里继续他的生活。
Act Five, Bad Teacher.
第五幕，坏老师。
In December 2006, roughly halfway between September 11, 2001 and today, we ran a story that generated more email than almost any story we have ever broadcast.
2006 年 12 月，大约从 2001 年 9 月 11 日到今天，我们发表了一篇报道，产生的电子邮件数量几乎比我们曾经广播过的任何报道都要多。
The story was about a family, a happy family, whose names we changed on the radio.
这个故事是关于一个家庭，一个幸福的家庭，我们在广播中更改了他们的名字。
Five kids, including a daughter who we called Chloe, who was pretty, a good student, very popular.
五个孩子，其中包括一个我们叫克洛伊的女儿，她很漂亮，是个好学生，很受欢迎。
I had a lot of friends.
我有很多朋友。
We were into horses, basically.
基本上我们都喜欢马。
And we went over to each other's house just to play with them and talk about them and draw them.
我们去彼此的家里只是为了和他们一起玩，谈论他们并画他们。
Chloe was 12 when we talked to her, but this story takes place back when she was eight.
我们采访克洛伊时她才 12 岁，但这个故事发生在她八岁的时候。
Her family was Muslim, and they were observant, and they lived in a suburb which didn't have many Muslims in it.
她的家人是穆斯林，他们很虔诚，而且他们住在一个穆斯林不多的郊区。
Her mom liked it that way.
她妈妈喜欢这样。
She chose that area because she wanted them to have a life with all kinds of people in it.
她选择那个地区是因为她希望他们能和各种各样的人一起生活。
And 9/11 did not change anything for them.
9/11 事件并没有为他们带来任何改变。
They weren't discriminated against.
他们没有受到歧视。
Chloe's friends didn't care that she was a Muslim.
克洛伊的朋友并不关心她是穆斯林。
All fine, until the first anniversary of 9/11 in 2002.
一切都很好，直到 2002 年 9/11 一周年纪念日。
Here's Chloe's mom, who we'll call Sari.
这是克洛伊的妈妈，我们称之为莎丽。
I picked up the children from school that day, and she was in tears.
那天我接孩子们放学，她泪流满面。
She was inconsolable.
她伤心欲绝。
She wasn't even making sense.
她甚至没有讲道理。
She just was crying and crying.
她只是一直哭啊哭啊。
Apparently, as part of the lesson for the 9/11 anniversary, the teacher in Chloe's class had passed out a slim paperback intended to educate students about the 9/11 tragedy.
显然，作为 9/11 周年纪念课程的一部分，克洛伊班上的老师分发了一本薄薄的平装本，旨在向学生们介绍 9/11 悲剧。
On the cover, it was a picture of the World Trade Center in flames.
封面上是一张着火的世贸中心的照片。
And the first thing was like, September 11 was a horrible day.
第一件事就是，9 月 11 日是可怕的一天。
Thousands and thousands died.
成千上万的人死亡。
And it said, who did it?
并说，是谁干的？
We don't know, but here's a clue.
我们不知道，但这里有一个线索。
Muslims hate Christians.
穆斯林讨厌基督徒。
Muslims hate Americans.
穆斯林讨厌美国人。
Muslims believe that anyone who doesn't practice Islam is evil, and that the Koran teaches war and hate.
穆斯林认为，任何不信奉伊斯兰教的人都是邪恶的，《古兰经》教导战争和仇恨。
There were some pictures of Muslim ladies wearing the headscarf, hijab.
有一些穆斯林女士戴着头巾、头巾的照片。
And some of them said, hey, those weird ladies, her mom's one of them.
其中一些人说，嘿，那些奇怪的女士，她妈妈就是其中之一。
And then they just all looked at me and said, you're one of those bad Muslims, aren't you?
然后他们都看着我说，你是那些坏穆斯林之一，不是吗？
And I just said, no, no, I'm not.
我只是说，不，不，我不是。
That's when the taunting began.
就在这时，嘲讽开始了。
It was just overnight.
这只是一夜而已。
They called me loser Muslim and Osama.
他们称我为失败者穆斯林和奥萨马。
Like, they all saw me as a different person.
就像，他们都把我视为不同的人。
Before reading the book, I was just a normal child.
在读这本书之前，我只是一个普通的孩子。
And then I turned into an Islamic extremist who hated the world and wanted to kill everybody.
然后我变成了一个伊斯兰极端分子，他憎恨这个世界，想要杀死所有人。
And there's a big difference there.
这里面有一个很大的区别。
Alix Spiegel, who reported this story for our show, picks up now with what happened next.
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔（Alix Spiegel）为我们的节目报道了这个故事，现在我们来了解接下来发生的事情。
The teasing just got worse from there.
从那时起，戏弄变得更糟。
Even her siblings were targeted.
甚至她的兄弟姐妹也成为目标。
Boys on the playground would surround her sister and pretend to pee.
操场上的男孩们会围着她妹妹假装撒尿。
There was nothing Chloe could do to stop it.
克洛伊无法阻止这一切。
No matter what she said, it didn't matter, in part because the teacher of her class also seemed hostile to Muslims.
不管她说什么都没关系，部分原因是她班上的老师似乎也对穆斯林怀有敌意。
And eventually, all of her friends stopped talking to her.
最终，她所有的朋友都不再和她说话了。
This made her physically ill.
这让她身体不适。
She wouldn't get out of bed for days at a time.
她一连好几天都不能下床。
Some of her hair turned gray.
她的一些头发变成了灰色。
She was eight.
她八岁。
Now, in 2004, the US Department of Justice actually did an investigation of what happened to Chloe and found that Chloe's teacher in the school had behaved inappropriately, contributing to an atmosphere where Chloe was brutally harassed by her peers.
现在，在2004年，美国司法部实际上对克洛伊的遭遇进行了调查，发现克洛伊在学校的老师行为不当，助长了克洛伊受到同龄人残酷骚扰的氛围。
The Justice Department required the school to take a variety of actions.
司法部要求学校采取多种行动。
But in some ways, by that point, it was already too late.
但从某些方面来说，到那时已经太晚了。
Chloe had been so traumatized, she dropped out.
克洛伊受到了很大的创伤，她退学了。
And worse, her family had been torn apart.
更糟糕的是，她的家庭已经支离破碎。
They'd picked up and moved away to put Chloe into a new school.
他们收拾东西搬走了，把克洛伊送进一所新学校。
But it wasn't far enough for Chloe's father.
但对于克洛伊的父亲来说，这还不够远。
Chloe's father had grown up in the West Bank.
克洛伊的父亲在约旦河西岸长大。
And after what happened to his daughter, he decided that his family, in particular, and Muslims in general were no longer safe in America.
在他女儿的遭遇之后，他认为他的家人，尤其是整个穆斯林在美国不再安全。
America, he concluded, hated them.
他总结道，美国讨厌他们。
He wanted the family to move with him back to the West Bank, but Sari couldn't agree.
他希望家人和他一起搬回约旦河西岸，但萨里不同意。
Well, I was born and raised in this country, and I'm aware of what makes this country great.
嗯，我在这个国家出生和长大，我知道是什么让这个国家变得伟大。
And I know that what happened to our family, it doesn't speak to American values.
我知道我们家庭发生的事情并不符合美国价值观。
And I feel like this is such a fluke.
我觉得这真是一个侥幸。
And I have to believe this is not what America's about.
我必须相信这不是美国的意义。
I know that.
我知道。
But I don't think that's the same for my husband.
但我不认为这对我丈夫来说是一样的。
So Sari and her husband divorced.
于是萨丽和她的丈夫离婚了。
Her husband moved to the West Bank alone, and she and the kids stayed in America.
她的丈夫独自搬到了约旦河西岸，她和孩子们留在了美国。
But when I called her recently, she told me that the last five years have not been good to her family, particularly, she says, to Chloe, who's now 17.
但当我最近给她打电话时，她告诉我，过去五年对她的家人来说并不好，尤其是对现在 17 岁的克洛伊来说。
Well, since then, she has been in three different schools.
嗯，从那以后，她就在三所不同的学校上学了。
Each of those schools were a challenge.
这些学校中的每一所都是一个挑战。
Well, for example, at the high school this past school year, at one point my daughter walked into the school library and about nine ROTC kids were seated at a table along with their instructor, and they began taunting her and calling her a raghead, saying she came from a religion of messed-up killers.
举个例子，在上个学年的高中，有一次我女儿走进学校图书馆，大约九个后备军官训练队的孩子和他们的老师坐在一张桌子旁，他们开始嘲笑她，称她为穷人，说她来自一个混乱杀手的宗教。
So it's just been very hard.
所以这非常困难。
Hard in a bunch of ways.
在很多方面都很困难。
This past spring, Sari got the news that her ex-husband had died.
去年春天，萨丽得知前夫去世的消息。
And the civil lawsuit that the family had filed against Chloe's old school dragged on for years, a constant reminder of what had happened.
家人对克洛伊的母校提起的民事诉讼持续了多年，不断提醒人们所发生的事情。
Two weeks ago, the school settled for a tiny amount.
两周前，学校以少量金额达成和解。
Still, Sari says, despite all this, Chloe is mostly managing.
尽管如此，萨里说，尽管如此，克洛伊主要还是在管理。
She's a remarkable young lady.
她是一位出色的年轻女士。
She'll be entering her senior year of high school.
她即将进入高中四年级。
And academically, she's doing great.
在学业上，她表现得很好。
It does concern me that she is not very social.
我确实担心她不太社交。
The entire summer passed and she never got together with any friends.
整个夏天过去了，她没有和任何朋友在一起。
She hangs out with her siblings.
她和她的兄弟姐妹一起出去玩。
They like to bake a lot.
他们非常喜欢烘焙。
Probably the biggest change for Sari since I talked to her five years ago was that, back then, she was adamant that what had happened to her family was a fluke.
自从我五年前与萨丽交谈以来，她最大的变化可能是，当时她坚信她家人所发生的事情只是侥幸。
And hundreds of our listeners actually wrote in to agree with her on this.
我们的数百名听众实际上写信同意她的观点。
She says, at the time, she found these letters very reassuring.
她说，当时她觉得这些信让她很安心。
But slowly over the last five years, she's really changed her mind.
但在过去的五年里，她慢慢地改变了主意。
This was no fluke.
这并非侥幸。
I think if I felt that way it would be delusional, because the past seven years really speak for themselves.
我想如果我有这种感觉那就是妄想，因为过去的七年真的不言而喻。
It's just been a barrage of intolerance and ugliness.
这只是一连串的不宽容和丑陋。
And really, I feel like our world back then was turned upside-down, and life as we knew it before is no longer what it was.
真的，我觉得我们当时的世界已经颠倒了，我们以前所知道的生活已经不再是原来的样子了。
Even the mosque that we used to attend, which is about 45 minutes away, someone randomly started shooting into the mosque.
就连我们过去常去的清真寺，距离大约45分钟路程，也有人随机开始向清真寺开枪。
And I haven't been back since then, because I just won't put my kids at risk.
从那以后我就再也没有回来过，因为我不会让我的孩子面临危险。
But that tells you that, even amongst our so-called own kind, amongst Muslims, we're really not safe.
但这告诉你，即使在我们所谓的同类中，在穆斯林中，我们也确实不安全。
We're a community under siege.
我们是一个被围困的社区。
So this is where I try to figure out if Sari's right, if Muslims in this country really are a community under siege.
因此，这就是我试图弄清楚萨里是否正确的地方，这个国家的穆斯林是否真的是一个受到围困的社区。
And that is a tricky question to answer.
这是一个很难回答的问题。
I can tell you that the number of hate crimes against Muslims are still much higher than they were before 9/11.
我可以告诉你，针对穆斯林的仇恨犯罪数量仍然远高于9/11之前。
In the last year for which the FBI provides statistics, 2009, hate crimes against Muslims constituted around 10% of all hate crimes nationwide, even though Muslims are only about 1% of the population.
根据联邦调查局提供的统计数据，2009 年，针对穆斯林的仇恨犯罪占全国仇恨犯罪的 10% 左右，尽管穆斯林只占总人口的 1% 左右。
And according to a poll published last week by the Pew Research Center, the majority of Muslims are like Sari.
根据皮尤研究中心上周发布的一项民意调查，大多数穆斯林都喜欢纱丽。
They feel like 9/11 made their lives more difficult.
他们觉得 9/11 让他们的生活变得更加困难。
But at the same time, around 80% say they're satisfied with their lives in the US.
但与此同时，大约 80% 的人表示他们对在美国的生活感到满意。
In other words, it's a complicated picture.
换句话说，这是一幅复杂的图景。
It's complicated for Sari, too.
对于莎丽来说，这也很复杂。
She's American.
她是美国人。
Her kids are American.
她的孩子是美国人。
And she doesn't want her children to give up on this country.
她也不希望她的孩子放弃这个国家。
And so, she says, she's given them some very targeted reading materials.
因此，她说，她给了他们一些非常有针对性的阅读材料。
The kids have read about Japanese-Americans and what they've gone through post-World War II.
孩子们读到了有关日裔美国人以及他们在二战后经历的故事。
And eventually, that passed.
最终，这一切都过去了。
I'm hoping that this will pass, too.
我也希望这件事能够过去。
When it will pass, though, is not entirely clear to Sari.
不过，萨里并不完全清楚这一切何时会过去。
So far it's been 10 years since 9/11, so I don't know.
9/11至今已经过去10年了，所以我不知道。
I wish it would happen before the kids' childhoods are over.
我希望这能在孩子们的童年结束之前发生。
That would be really nice.
那真是太好了。
This fall, the family's moving again, hoping that will help.
今年秋天，一家人再次搬家，希望这会有所帮助。
Sari's looking for a job.
萨里正在找工作。
Alix Spiegel is a correspondent for NPR News.
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔 (Alix Spiegel) 是 NPR 新闻的记者。
Act Six, Clutter.
第六幕，混乱。
Let's end today's show with somebody who was at the World Trade Center on that day in 2001.
让我们以 2001 年那天在世贸中心的人来结束今天的节目。
When I first talked to Lynn Simpson less than two weeks after the towers collapsed, she was still having trouble sleeping.
双子塔倒塌后不到两周，当我第一次与林恩·辛普森交谈时，她仍然难以入睡。
She'd escaped from the 89th floor, and she kept waking up, thinking about it.
她从八十九层逃了出来，她一直在醒来，想着这件事。
For the first several nights, I would wake up in the middle of the night and just have those images of the towers in my mind, and the smoke.
在最初的几个晚上，我会在半夜醒来，脑子里只有塔楼和烟雾的图像。
And also, that was when I couldn't get the smell out of my hair, the very acrid dust smell.
而且，那时我无法从头发中去除气味，非常刺鼻的灰尘气味。
And it's a smell that's on my clothes.
我衣服上有股味道。
I have the clothes that I was wearing that day, my shoes, my socks, my slacks, my top, even the little-- I wear a little thing in my hair which keeps my hair clipped back.
我有那天穿的衣服，我的鞋子，我的袜子，我的休闲裤，我的上衣，甚至是小东西——我在头发上戴了一个小东西，让我的头发向后剪。
And I don't know what to do with them.
我不知道该怎么处理它们。
You still have them?
你还有吗？
Lynn Simpson I still have them.
林恩·辛普森 我还留着它们。
I don't know what to do with them.
我不知道该怎么处理他们。
I don't want to throw them away.
我不想把它们扔掉。
I don't want to have them cleaned.
我不想让他们清理。
Why don't you want to throw them away or have them cleaned?
您为什么不想扔掉它们或将它们清理干净？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I just, I can't quite let go of them.
我只是，我还不能完全放开他们。
It is a bunch of trash, but it happened to me and I survived.
这是一堆垃圾，但它发生在我身上，我活了下来。
I just know that I have them in a bag, and I keep the bag in a little corner.
我只知道我把它们放在一个袋子里，并且把袋子放在一个小角落里。
And I will eventually do something with them, because that's clutter, and clutter is not good.
我最终会用它们做一些事情，因为那是混乱，而混乱不好。
But right now I just can't do that.
但现在我还做不到。
So when you and I spoke 10 years ago, you still had the clothes that you had worn that day to work.
所以十年前你和我说话的时候，你还留着那天上班穿的衣服。
And you said that it was hard to throw them out.
你说很难把它们扔掉。
So when did you finally throw out the clothes that you wore on September 11?
那么你什么时候最终扔掉了 9 月 11 日穿的衣服呢？
No, I didn't.
不，我没有。
I haven't done anything with them.
我没有和他们做任何事。
I'm--
我是——
--reluctant to say.
——不好意思说。
They're in the little bag.
它们在小袋子里。
However, they have moved from the floor in the corner into the top of a closet.
然而，它们已经从角落里的地板搬到了壁橱的顶部。
So now the clutter's out of my sight.
所以现在杂乱的东西已经消失在我的视线之外了。
But I'm a little scared to look in them now.
但我现在有点害怕看它们。
And do you ever pull them out and look at them?
你有没有把它们拿出来看看？
No, no. Ira Glass Lynn doesn't work now.
不，不。 Ira Glass Lynn 现在不工作。
She doesn't live in New York anymore.
她不再住在纽约了。
She's in Pennsylvania.
她在宾夕法尼亚州。
She finds she can't even visit New York City.
她发现她甚至不能去纽约市。
She's one of an estimated 10,000 first responders and civilians who suffer PTSD related to the 9/11 attack.
她是估计有 10,000 名因 9/11 袭击而遭受创伤后应激障碍 (PTSD) 的急救人员和平民之一。
The symptoms?
症状？
They're jittery, they overreact to loud noises, they have trouble concentrating.
他们紧张不安，对噪音反应过度，注意力难以集中。
Lynn says that she has no idea why she is one of the people who reacted this way, and not one of the many people who went on with their lives.
林恩说，她不知道为什么自己是做出这种反应的人之一，而不是众多继续生活的人之一。
She still has an incredibly hard time sleeping.
她仍然很难入睡。
She's not replaying moments from 9/11 at night, she says.
她说，她不会在晚上重播 9/11 的片段。
Now it's just a kind of free-floating anxiety.
现在它只是一种自由浮动的焦虑。
And just last month, a few weeks before the 10th anniversary, she finally sold her old apartment in Manhattan.
就在上个月，距离十周年纪念还有几周，她终于卖掉了曼哈顿的旧公寓。
She'd had renters there, figuring that eventually she'd move back.
她在那里有租客，认为她最终会搬回来。
I didn't want to do it.
我不想这么做。
I fought selling that apartment.
我努力卖掉那套公寓。
Was part of selling the apartment you had to admit to yourself, OK, I'm never going to get over this?
出售公寓是你必须承认的一部分，好吧，我永远无法克服这个问题？
Yes.
是的。
Definitely.
确实。
And it's very hard to admit that you're not going to be back to your old self, whether it's something whether you had an accident or hip surgery or whatever it is, you've changed.
很难承认你不会回到原来的自己，无论是发生了事故还是髋关节手术或者其他什么，你已经改变了。
September 11th changed me.
9月11日改变了我。
And no matter how much I try and talk myself into the fact that I'm going to get back to it, I will go back, I will be the person that I was, it's not going to happen.
无论我如何努力说服自己相信我会回到过去，我会回去，我会成为原来的我，但这不会发生。
And I've accepted that.
我已经接受了这一点。
And once I accepted it, it was OK.
一旦我接受了，就OK了。
We spent this hour talking about what has changed in the last decade, and what has happened because of 9/11.
我们花了一个小时讨论过去十年发生的变化，以及 9/11 发生的事情。
9/11's become a symbol.
9/11 已成为一个象征。
It's become a rallying cry.
这已成为战斗口号。
But it was also a day, a terrifying day.
但这也是一天，可怕的一天。
So let's close our broadcast with Lynn's account from back then of what that day was like for her, in the towers when the planes hit, escaping just a minute before the building collapsed.
因此，让我们以林恩当时的叙述来结束我们的广播，讲述她那天的经历，飞机撞上塔楼时，她在大楼倒塌前一分钟逃离了塔楼。
Well, there were five of us in the office.
嗯，办公室里有我们五个人。
We were the early birds.
我们是早起的鸟儿。
And all of a sudden, there was an enormous crash, and the building actually shook.
突然，一声巨大的撞击声传来，大楼竟然摇晃了起来。
We could feel it shake.
我们能感觉到它在摇晃。
The lights went out.
灯灭了。
The sprinklers came on.
洒水器开了。
The ceiling came down.
天花板掉下来了。
The file cabinets fell.
文件柜掉落了。
Everything started toppling.
一切都开始倾覆。
And smoke immediately filled the entire office.
烟雾立刻充满了整个办公室。
On the floor where you were, how many floors were you from where the airplane hit?
在你所在的楼层，你距离飞机撞击的地方有多少层？
I believe the airplane hit either just above or just about the 89th, 90th, 91st floor.
我相信飞机撞到了 89 层、90 层、91 层的上方或附近。
The only reason that I'm here, partly, is because the airplane hit on the other side of the building.
我来这里的唯一原因部分是因为飞机撞到了大楼的另一边。
The lights were out.
灯灭了。
It was smoky.
烟雾缭绕。
It was dim.
天色昏暗。
And it was getting very hot.
而且天气变得非常热。
I did try the emergency stairwell, and that door was locked.
我确实尝试了紧急楼梯间，那扇门是锁着的。
And we drank water.
我们喝了水。
We covered our noses.
我们捂住鼻子。
And I called my boss, my boyfriend, and my mother.
我打电话给我的老板、我的男朋友和我的母亲。
What did you say?
你说什么？
Lynn Simpson I said to all of them, I'm all right.
林恩·辛普森 我对他们所有人说，我很好。
I don't know what's happened, but I'm all right.
我不知道发生了什么事，但我没事。
And I told John, I said the doors are locked.
我告诉约翰，我说门是锁着的。
I can't get out.
我出不去。
I can't get down the stairway.
我下不了楼梯。
A few minutes after that, people knocked on the door and there were people, men with flashlights knocking on the door saying, come out, and let's go downstairs.
几分钟后，有人敲门，有人拿着手电筒敲门说，出来吧，我们下楼吧。
The stairwell that you hadn't been able to get into before?
以前进不去的楼梯间？
The stairwell that I had tried before.
我以前尝试过的楼梯间。
But then we started down.
但后来我们开始往下走。
And about the 83rd floor, we had to cross over.
大约到了83层，我们就不得不穿越了。
And we crossed over.
而我们就穿越了。
That floor was devastated.
那层楼已经被毁了。
It was pitch black, full of smoke.
周围一片漆黑，充满了烟雾。
The sprinklers were coming down.
洒水器正在降下。
The ceiling had come down.
天花板已经塌下来了。
We had to hold hands to walk across it.
我们必须手牵着手才能走过它。
And the only light we basically had was one man's cell phone.
我们唯一拥有的灯就是一个人的手机。
And we made our way across that to another stairwell.
我们穿过那个楼梯间到达另一个楼梯间。
And then we proceeded down, I believe to 78.
然后我们继续下降，我相信是 78。
So at 78, we had to cross to another set of stairs.
所以在 78 岁时，我们不得不穿过另一组楼梯。
And when we crossed on 78, it was as if nothing had happened.
当我们跨过78号公路时，一切都好像什么也没发生过一样。
The lights were on, no smoke, air conditioning, carpeting.
灯亮着，没有烟，有空调，有地毯。
It was all perfect.
一切都很完美。
How strange.
多么奇怪啊。
That must've been so strange for you all.
这对大家来说一定很奇怪。
It was very peculiar, very peculiar to go from one extreme to the other.
从一个极端走到另一个极端是非常奇特的。
But at 78, we had to make a decision.
但在78岁的时候，我们必须做出决定。
There were two exit signs.
有两个出口标志。
And one, I've since learned, that one exit went down to one floor and then stopped.
我后来了解到，其中一个出口通向一层，然后停了下来。
It was just dead.
它刚刚死了。
And the other exit, which somebody said, trust me, I know we have to go down this staircase.
还有另一个出口，有人说，相信我，我知道我们必须走下这个楼梯。
And we did.
我们做到了。
We trusted that person, and we went down that staircase.
我们信任那个人，然后走下楼梯。
And that led us to the bottom.
这把我们引向了谷底。
And then we continued down.
然后我们继续往下走。
We had to move over to the side, because the firemen in full gear were coming up.
我们不得不移到一边，因为全副武装的消防员正在赶来。
And they started-- they met us at about 50-- and they started coming up.
他们开始——他们在 50 岁左右遇见我们——然后他们开始出现。
And then we simply continued down to the plaza level.
然后我们继续下到广场层。
They told us, do not look up, do not look out, do not look down, just keep going, and we need you to hurry, run, could you jog?
他们告诉我们，不要抬头，不要向外看，不要低头，继续走，我们需要你快点，跑，你能慢跑吗？
Well, our program was produced today by Nancy Updike and myself, with Ben Calhoun, Sarah Koenig, Jonathan Menjivar, Lisa Pollak, Robyn Semien, and Alissa Shipp.
好吧，我们今天的节目是由南希·厄普代克和我本人以及本·卡尔霍恩、莎拉·科尼格、乔纳森·门吉瓦、丽莎·波拉克、罗宾·塞米恩和艾丽莎·希普共同制作的。
Our senior producer's Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人朱莉·斯奈德。
Production help from Mickey Meek.
米奇·米克 (Mickey Meek) 提供制作帮助。
Seth Lind is our production manager.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的生产经理。
Emily Condon's our office manager.
艾米丽·康登是我们的办公室经理。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
[致谢]《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
WBEZ management oversight for our program by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia, who's up late saying this after every story I do:
我们的老板托里·马拉蒂亚 (Torey Malatia) 先生对我们的项目进行 WBEZ 管理监督，他在我报道完每个故事后都会这么说：
I couldn't sleep tonight.
今晚我无法入睡。
It's because that interview was so emotional.
因为那次采访太感人了。
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life .
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
[MUSIC - "NEW YORK, NEW YORK" BY RYAN ADAMS]
[音乐 - 瑞恩·亚当斯的《纽约，纽约》]
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。