444: Gossip - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #444 | August 26, 2011 444: Gossip Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 444 集 | 2011 年 8 月 26 日 444：八卦注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Sarah Koenig From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life , distributed by Public Radio International.
序言 Sarah Koenig 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥，这就是《美国生活》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Sarah Koenig sitting in for Ira Glass, who's off this week.
我是莎拉·科尼格 (Sarah Koenig)，代理艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass)，她本周休假。
To begin in the show we wanted Julie Snyder, our senior producer, and her husband, Jeff Melman, to tell the story about something that happened with Julie's hairdresser.
在节目开始时，我们希望我们的高级制片人朱莉·斯奈德和她的丈夫杰夫·梅尔曼讲述发生在朱莉的理发师身上的故事。
So they came into the studio.
于是他们就来到了工作室。
OK, I'm here.
好的，我来了。
You're there and he's there.
你在那儿，他也在那儿。
And before we got into the hairdresser story, Julie was trying to figure out a clever way to introduce the fact that Ira was away.
在我们开始讲理发师的故事之前，朱莉试图找到一个聪明的方式来介绍艾拉不在的事实。
She thought maybe we could do a little skit to tell people that.
她认为也许我们可以做一个小品来告诉人们这一点。
So she fed Jeff this line.
所以她给杰夫喂了这条线。
Oh, you're supposed to say, so where is Ira, right now.
哦，你应该说，艾拉现在在哪里。
Right now?
现在？
So where is Ira?
那么艾拉在哪里？
Julie Snyder No, not like that.
朱莉·斯奈德 不，不是那样的。
Note how quickly she shoots him down, doesn't even wait a polite second to pretend to consider whether that was any good.
请注意，她很快就击落了他，甚至没有礼貌地等待一秒假装考虑这是否有好处。
That's why she's the senior producer.
这就是为什么她是高级制片人。
She keeps at him.
她一直盯着他。
So where is Ira?
那么艾拉在哪里？
Jeff Melman So where is Ira?
杰夫·梅尔曼 那么艾拉在哪里？
Let me do it again.
让我再做一次。
I told you, this is--
我告诉过你，这是——
More natural.
更自然。
Jeff Melman I told you, this is not my thing.
杰夫·梅尔曼，我告诉过你，这不是我的事。
Jeff likes to say that, but in fact this will not affect their marriage.
杰夫喜欢这么说，但事实上这不会影响他们的婚姻。
I've known them for a long time, and, as the President likes to say, the State of the Union is strong.
我认识他们很长时间了，正如总统喜欢说的，国情咨文是强大的。
OK, so we're here to tell you this story, so we'll start in on telling you the story.
好的，所以我们来这里是为了告诉你这个故事，所以我们将开始告诉你这个故事。
The story is a gossip story.
故事是一个八卦故事。
That's what our show's about today, gossip.
这就是我们今天节目的主题，八卦。
And it starts, like any classic of the genre, in a hair salon.
就像该类型的任何经典作品一样，它始于美发沙龙。
First of all, what you need to know Sarah, is that my hair color is not natural.
首先，你需要知道莎拉，我的头发颜色不自然。
Stop.
停止。
Julie visits her colorist every six to eight weeks.
朱莉每六到八周拜访一次调色师。
They've struck up a friendship.
他们已经建立了友谊。
You know, how are you, how are your kids, blah, blah, blah, where are you living, what are you doing, and stuff like that.
你知道，你好吗，你的孩子怎么样，等等，等等，你住在哪里，你在做什么，诸如此类。
And at one point, she started telling me-- I don't know if she was broken up with her boyfriend or they were on a break, but she was starting something on the side, she told me, with a guy who worked at a restaurant in our town.
有一次，她开始告诉我——我不知道她是否和男朋友分手了，或者他们正在休息，但她告诉我，她正在和一个在我们镇上一家餐馆工作的人一起做一些兼职。
And she started describing him to me, and I knew who she was talking about.
她开始向我描述他，我知道她在说谁。
I was like, oh yeah, that guy.
我当时想，哦，是的，那个家伙。
He's the best looking guy that works there.
他是那里工作的最帅的人。
And it sounded all very exciting.
听起来一切都非常令人兴奋。
And then like the next time, like six to eight weeks later, I asked how that was going.
然后就像下一次一样，大约六到八周后，我问事情进展如何。
And by then, it wasn't going as well.
到那时，情况就不那么顺利了。
But she also was like, when I asked her about it, she was kind of like, oh, shh, shh, shh.
但她也说，当我问她这件事时，她有点像，哦，嘘，嘘，嘘。
And sort of admonished me for asking about it in a normal tone of voice.
并有点警告我用正常的语气问这件事。
And then, she waits until it there's like nobody else around, and then kneels down very quietly next to me, and was just like, it's just that I don't really like people knowing my business.
然后，她等到周围没有其他人，然后安静地跪在我旁边，就像，我真的不喜欢人们知道我的事。
So then Julie's hairdresser goes on to tell her some kind of embarrassing stories about the guy.
然后朱莉的理发师继续给她讲一些关于这个家伙的尴尬故事。
And how she's not that into him any more.
以及她如何不再那么喜欢他了。
She might break it off, maybe go back to the original boyfriend.
她可能会分手，也许会回到原来的男朋友身边。
And Julie goes home and tells all of this to Jeff, which she figures is a dead-end for this top-secret information.
朱莉回到家，把这一切告诉了杰夫，她认为这对于这个绝密信息来说是一个死胡同。
He's unconnected.
他没有联系。
He doesn't know the hairdresser.
他不认识理发师。
There's no reason he'd repeat it.
他没有理由重复这件事。
The gossip is safely stored within the walls of their kitchen.
八卦被安全地存储在他们厨房的墙壁内。
So fast forward to the neighborhood Christmas party.
快进到附近的圣诞派对。
Julie stays home with one kid, but Jeff takes their daughter to the party.
朱莉和一个孩子呆在家里，但杰夫带他们的女儿去参加聚会。
He's not having a good time.
他过得不太好。
It's a lot of small talk with people he doesn't know.
他和不认识的人闲聊了很多。
It's a little awkward.
有点尴尬。
So using his six-year-old to escape, he wanders upstairs.
于是，他利用六岁的孩子逃走，徘徊在楼上。
We were like in the kid's bedroom.
我们就像在孩子的卧室里。
Where a bunch of kids were, and they were all like playing, like throwing stuffed animals around.
那里有一群孩子，他们都喜欢玩耍，喜欢扔毛绒玩具。
That's where I was hanging out.
那是我闲逛的地方。
No because my daughter needed me to be there, but because I'm not a big party guy.
不，因为我女儿需要我在那里，但因为我不喜欢参加派对。
So I don't know.
所以我不知道。
So somehow I overheard these women talking.
所以不知怎的，我无意中听到了这些女人的谈话。
Jeff overhears the women say their sister works at the salon that Julie goes to.
杰夫无意中听到妇女们说她们的妹妹在朱莉常去的沙龙工作。
So he chimes in, makes a connection.
所以他插话，建立了联系。
I think I said something like, did you know about the relationship with the guy in the restaurant or something like that.
我想我说了类似的话，你知道你和餐厅里那个人的关系吗？
I think I jumped right in.
我想我是直接跳进去的。
In fact, they knew nothing about the guy in the restaurant.
事实上，他们对餐厅里的那个人一无所知。
But they wanted to know everything.
但他们想知道一切。
And then of course, they were just full of joy.
当然，他们只是充满了喜悦。
They were so eager to hear more.
他们非常渴望听到更多。
I mean, I told them everything that I knew.
我的意思是，我告诉了他们我所知道的一切。
I think, I made up some stuff maybe, possibly.
我想，我也许编造了一些东西。
Yeah, the more I told them, the more interested they were in me, and the--
是的，我告诉他们越多，他们对我就越感兴趣，而且——
[LAUGHING] Oh, God.
[笑]哦，上帝。
Jeff Melman --they were enjoying me.
杰夫·梅尔曼——他们很喜欢我。
Oh, my God.
我的天啊。
Jeff Melman I couldn't stop.
杰夫梅尔曼我无法停下来。
I can honestly say, at no point during the conversation, like while I was at the party, did I think that what I was doing was not OK.
我可以诚实地说，在谈话过程中，比如我在聚会上，我从来没有认为我所做的事情不对。
Like it never felt like, oh, I should stop.
就像从来没有感觉，哦，我应该停下来。
It was great.
太棒了。
I mean, they were filling my cup--
我是说，他们正在给我倒杯子——
[LAUGHING] Oh, God.
[笑]哦，上帝。
Jeff Melman --lighting my cigarette for me.
杰夫梅尔曼——为我点烟。
It was like that.
就是这样。
I mean, I just spilled it all.
我的意思是，我刚刚把它全部洒了。
And then, like I said, when I left, I was excited to go tell Julie about it.
然后，就像我说的，当我离开时，我很高兴去告诉朱莉这件事。
Somehow I though that she would be as excited as I was.
不知怎的，我以为她会和我一样兴奋。
And I was just like, wait.
我当时就想，等等。
What?
什么？
Jeff thought this was no big deal at all.
杰夫认为这根本没什么大不了的。
And I was like, did the sisters know?
我就想，姐妹们知道吗？
And he was like, no, they didn't know.
他说，不，他们不知道。
They had no idea.
他们不知道。
I just couldn't believe, why would you do that?
我简直不敢相信，你为什么要这么做？
Why would you tell them that?
你为什么要告诉他们这些？
This is a really, really, big deal.
这真的是一件非常非常大的事情。
Julie had seen the chess pieces lineup immediately.
朱莉立刻就看到了棋子的排列。
Her colorist has three sisters.
她的调色师有三个姐妹。
They're close, which means if they didn't know about the cheating, the sister, very pointedly, did not want them to know, didn't want their judgment.
他们很亲密，这意味着如果他们不知道作弊的事情，姐姐就非常尖锐地不想让他们知道，不想让他们做出判断。
And she also knew that her colorist would quickly figure out that it was Julie who blabbed to Jeff, who blabbed to the sisters.
她还知道，她的调色师很快就会发现是朱莉向杰夫胡言乱语，而杰夫又向姐妹们胡言乱语。
Which is exactly what happened.
这正是发生的事情。
And this has stumped Julie ever since, why Jeff would be so clueless?
这件事一直困扰着朱莉，为什么杰夫会这么无知呢？
Jeff's defense is that he doesn't have Julie's talent for understanding the contours of gossip.
杰夫的辩护是，他没有朱莉那样理解八卦轮廓的天赋。
He can't feel the significance of secrets the way she does.
他无法像她那样感受到秘密的重要性。
He can't always figure out their weight and value and danger.
他总是无法弄清楚它们的重量、价值和危险。
It's a real disability.
这是真正的残疾。
I, honestly, I swear, when I got home from the party I was very excited to tell Julie about this.
老实说，我发誓，当我从聚会回到家时，我非常兴奋地告诉朱莉这件事。
Somehow, it felt like I had done good.
不知何故，我感觉自己做得很好。
For some reason I thought Julie would be very pleased with me.
出于某种原因，我认为朱莉会对我感到非常满意。
You were like a cat bringing home a dead mouse for her to lay at her feet.
你就像一只猫把一只死老鼠带回家，放在她的脚边。
I sort of thought of it as like a family victory, like we really scored at this party.
我觉得这就像一场家庭胜利，就像我们在这次聚会上真正得分一样。
So I've read a little bit of like wonky, academic stuff about gossip just in the last week, and there's various definitions or whatever.
所以我上周读了一些关于八卦的奇怪的、学术性的东西，有各种各样的定义或其他什么。
But this one academic from Yale wrote this whole book in the '80s.
但这整本书是由耶鲁大学的一位学者在 80 年代写成的。
And one of the things she posits, actually, is that gossip is-- there's extremes of gossip which are really bad, like tearing somebody's character apart, or very malicious gossip, obviously that no one condones.
事实上，她提出的一件事是，八卦是——有一些极端的八卦非常糟糕，比如撕裂某人的性格，或者非常恶意的八卦，显然没有人会宽恕。
But that gossip itself is a way of like making an emotional connection with people around you.
但八卦本身就是一种与周围的人建立情感联系的方式。
And super important and really good.
非常重要而且非常好。
And that it carries an erotic power in fact.
事实上，它具有色情的力量。
That there's something erotic in having access to information and being the one to pass something exciting on to somebody else.
获取信息并把令人兴奋的东西传递给别人是一种情欲。
And I'm wondering.
我想知道。
Well, I do have a lot of erotic power, that's true.
嗯，我确实有很多色情的力量，这是事实。
I could tell that.
我可以这么说。
Jeff Melman I think that's very interesting.
杰夫·梅尔曼 我认为这很有趣。
I mean, maybe some of that is tied up in it.
我的意思是，也许其中一些与此有关。
This is really going to affect my marriage by the way.
顺便说一句，这确实会影响我的婚姻。
The fact is, now that I hear you talk about it now, it's sweet that you just loved them listening to you and laughing.
事实是，现在我听到你谈论这件事，很高兴你喜欢他们听你说话并大笑。
The erotic power?
情欲的力量？
Julie Snyder I actually find the erotic power part to be sort of sweet.
朱莉·斯奈德 我实际上发现色情力量部分有点甜蜜。
It almost makes me feel like I would do it again.
这几乎让我觉得我会再做一次。
We all gossip, but we don't always understand its power, its erotic power, if you will.
我们都会说闲话，但我们并不总是了解它的力量，如果你愿意的话，它的色情力量。
On today's show we've got gossip, gossip, and more gossip.
在今天的节目中，我们有八卦、八卦、还有更多八卦。
Stories, where yes, the gossip can be dangerous and slanderous but also a force for good.
故事，是的，八卦可能是危险的和诽谤性的，但也是一股善良的力量。
We've got rampant gossip on another continent.
我们在另一个大陆上有猖獗的八卦。
And a short story about when gossipers go pro.
还有一个关于八卦者何时成为职业选手的小故事。
If you want to hear what we'ver heard, stay with us.
如果您想听听我们所听到的，请留在我们身边。
Part of what makes gossip gossip is that you're not supposed to do it.
八卦之所以成为八卦，部分原因在于你不应该这样做。
It's in the Bible.
这是圣经里的。
It's in the Koran.
这是古兰经里的。
Jewish law prohibits it.
犹太法律禁止这样做。
It's considered sinful.
这被认为是有罪的。
But sometimes you have to.
但有时你必须这样做。
That's true in Malawi, in southeast Africa, for instance.
例如，非洲东南部的马拉维就是如此。
There gossiping is, of course, frowned upon, but not gossiping can be even worse.
当然，八卦是令人不悦的，但不八卦可能更糟糕。
Hazel Namadingo is from Malawi.
Hazel Namadingo 来自马拉维。
She's 26, and she went to college in Malawi, at a place called Chancellor College, where gossip wasn't just common, it was organized.
她今年 26 岁，在马拉维一所名叫校长学院的地方上大学，在那里八卦不仅很常见，而且是有组织的。
There was some kind of board where people posted gossips.
有某种论坛，人们可以在这里发布八卦。
It was a bulletin board, in fact, in the college's main library.
事实上，这是学院主图书馆的一个公告牌。
So every morning people would rush to that board to see the latest thing that has happened around campus.
因此，每天早上人们都会涌向那个看板，了解校园里发生的最新事情。
What kind of gossip?
什么样的八卦？
What kind of gossip?
什么样的八卦？
That's a stupid question if I do say so myself.
如果我自己这么说的话，那真是个愚蠢的问题。
Because, really, there's only one kind of gossip you'd rush to see on the bulletin board every morning.
因为，实际上，只有一种八卦是你每天早上都会冲到布告栏上看到的。
And that's, of course, gossip about sex.
当然，这就是关于性的八卦。
And I guess this is a good place for a listener warning that this story does discuss sex and birth control.
我想这是一个警告听众的好地方，警告这个故事确实讨论了性和节育。
Not graphically, at all, but just the existence of it.
根本不是图形上的，而是它的存在。
So if you're listening with kids, you might want to know that.
所以如果你和孩子们一起听，你可能想知道这一点。
Sex, as any gossiper knows, is the mother of all good gossip.
任何八卦者都知道，性是所有好八卦之母。
If you made a pie chart of gossip topics, sex would have to be half the pie, maybe even 3/4.
如果你制作一个八卦话题饼图，性就必须占饼图的一半，甚至可能是 3/4。
The same was certainly true at Chancellor College.
校长学院当然也是如此。
It ranged from maybe a guy being caught in the girl's hostel--
可能是一个男人在女孩宿舍里被抓——
A hostel is like a dorm.
宿舍就像宿舍一样。
Hazel Namandingo --up to a girl getting grades for having sex with a lecturer.
Hazel Namandingo——一个女孩因与讲师发生性关系而获得成绩。
And this would be on this public bulletin board, where everyone can read it?
这会出现在公共公告板上，每个人都可以阅读吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Sarah Koenig And the university new about it?
Sarah Koenig 这所大学有什么新鲜事吗？
Yeah, it knew, but they had no control over it whatsoever.
是的，它知道，但他们无法控制它。
The bulletin board did eventually stop, but the gossip didn't.
公告牌最终确实停止了，但八卦却没有。
And it's not like it went underground.
而且它并没有进入地下。
So in my time, we had several newspapers.
所以在我那个时代，我们有几份报纸。
We had a school newspaper, which was OK.
我们有一份校报，这还可以。
It printed a lot of stuff that you can read and benefit from.
它打印了很多您可以阅读并受益的内容。
But then there was this other newspaper, which a group of boys and girls would print, and it was just pure gossip from first page to the last page.
但还有另一份报纸，由一群男孩和女孩印刷，从第一页到最后一页都是纯粹的八卦。
It had names, but the foremost one was just The Tabloid.
它有名字，但最重要的就是《小报》。
I think it was called that.
我想它就是这么叫的。
Hazel says The Tabloid quote, "Gave too much detail to things that you would want to keep secret." Which is pretty much the best definition of a gossip rag that I've ever heard.
哈兹尔引用《小报》的一句话：“对你想要保密的事情给出了太多细节。”这几乎是我听过的对八卦抹布的最好定义。
For anyone who's gone to college, or to high school, or, for that matter, simply existed in any kind of fornicating society, the stories in The Tabloid are probably familiar.
对于任何上过大学、高中或仅仅存在于任何一种通奸社会的人来说，《小报》中的故事可能都很熟悉。
Two people got together and had sex, discuss.
两个人聚在一起发生性关系，讨论。
But in Malawi, I'm going to venture to say, that this kind of gossip, not to put to fine a point on it, is a matter of life and death.
但在马拉维，我要大胆地说，这种八卦，更不用说，是生死攸关的问题。
Because in Malawi a lot of people have HIV and AIDS, and so figuring out who is safe to go out with is a serious concern.
因为在马拉维，很多人都感染了艾滋病毒和艾滋病，所以弄清楚谁可以安全地出去是一个严重的问题。
Hazel works for an American run research project that's interested in how AIDS is changing the way young people in Malawi make decisions about family planning, about who to marry, how many kids to have.
哈兹尔为一个美国开展的研究项目工作，该项目感兴趣的是艾滋病如何改变马拉维年轻人在计划生育、结婚和生几个孩子方面的决策方式。
She supervises a team of researchers who interview young people three times a year to see, among other things, how their love lives have changed, what decisions they've made about their relationships and why.
她领导的研究团队每年采访年轻人三次，以了解他们的爱情生活发生了怎样的变化、他们对人际关系做出了哪些决定以及原因。
And AIDS is central to all this.
艾滋病是这一切的核心。
In Malawi everyone knows someone who's got it.
在马拉维，每个人都认识患有这种病的人。
How many people would you say you know or know of, who are positive?
您认为您认识或认识的人有多少人呈阳性？
In my life, for sure, I know three.
在我的一生中，我肯定认识三个。
And these are all my relatives.
这些都是我的亲戚。
Yeah, I know my brother is positive.
是的，我知道我弟弟的检测呈阳性。
I know my niece is positive.
我知道我的侄女呈阳性。
I know my brother's wife is positive.
我知道我兄弟的妻子呈阳性。
That's for sure.
这是肯定的。
But for some people I just meet in my neighborhood or work with, I can't really say that I know what they're positive, maybe suspect.
但对于我在邻居或工作中遇到的一些人来说，我真的不能说我知道他们的积极观点，也许是怀疑的观点。
What about the second category, sort of, you've heard around town?
你在城里听说过的第二类怎么样？
Hazel herself is married now, and has a newborn baby.
黑兹尔本人现已结婚，并育有一子。
But she says AIDS was a constant topic with her friends.
但她说艾滋病是她朋友们经常谈论的话题。
Before they'd date someone, they'd ask around about them, and make their decision based on the gossip.
在他们和某人约会之前，他们会四处打听对方的情况，然后根据八卦做出决定。
It's so common to discuss whether someone's got the virus that there's shorthand for it.
讨论某人是否感染了病毒是很常见的，因此有一个简写形式。
We have our own terms that we use to name someone who has AIDS, or who is on ARVs.
我们有自己的术语，用于命名患有艾滋病或正在服用抗逆转录病毒药物的人。
ARVs stands for antiretrovirals, the medication that some people with HIV take.
ARV 代表抗逆转录病毒药物，这是一些艾滋病毒感染者服用的药物。
So when you want to go out with a person, and your friends will say no. That one is poison.
所以当你想和一个人出去的时候，你的朋友都会拒绝。那个是毒药。
Like the person is poison, you can't go near him.
就像这个人有毒一样，你不能靠近他。
Or sometimes we call or we name that person, oh, that one is using units.
或者有时我们打电话或命名那个人，哦，那个人正在使用单位。
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
Hazel Namandingo That means-- you know, in Malawi, the mobile phones that we have?
Hazel Namandingo 这意味着——你知道，在马拉维，我们拥有的手机吗？
This one's a little complicated.
这个有点复杂。
In Malawi, to use a mobile phone, you have to buy a card with phone units on it.
在马拉维，要使用移动电话，您必须购买带有电话单元的卡。
And once you use them up, you have to buy more to buy more time.
一旦你用完它们，你就必须购买更多才能赢得更多时间。
So if a person is said to be on units, that's slang for taking ARVs.
因此，如果说一个人在单位，这是服用抗逆转录病毒药物的俚语。
They have to top-up on the medication every single day to buy more time.
他们必须每天补充药物才能赢得更多时间。
In Malawi, just like in the US, AIDS testing is confidential.
在马拉维，就像在美国一样，艾滋病检测是保密的。
So really people are usually guessing about who's infected and who isn't.
所以人们通常会猜测谁被感染了，谁没有被感染。
But where Hazel lives secrets get around pretty fast.
但黑兹尔住的地方秘密很快就会传开。
For instance, if you go to the hospital for malaria testing at the laboratory, which isn't all that uncommon--
例如，如果你去医院的实验室进行疟疾检测，这并不少见——
Right next, after they-- laboratory-- there is this room where it's written that-- ARVs.
接下来，在他们之后——实验室——有一个房间，上面写着——抗逆转录病毒药物。
So when you see people going there, queuing on the line towards the ARVs door, you conclude that they are positive.
因此，当您看到人们去那里，在抗逆转录病毒药物门口排队时，您就会得出结论，他们的检测呈阳性。
So these are some of the ways how people come up with kind of gossip that so and so is positive, so and so is on ARVs.
因此，这些是人们如何想出某某积极的、某某关于抗逆转录病毒药物的八卦的一些方式。
ARVs are helping a lot of infected people in Malawi live a lot longer, but they also complicate gossip.
抗逆转录病毒药物正在帮助马拉维的许多感染者延长寿命，但它们也使流言蜚语变得复杂。
If a girl is beautiful, for example, it doesn't necessarily help her chances of finding a partner partly because of ARVs.
例如，如果一个女孩很漂亮，并不一定会增加她找到伴侣的机会，部分原因是抗逆转录病毒药物。
Like if you see someone who is, maybe, a little bit fat--
就像如果你看到一个人，也许，有点胖——
Remember girls, this is Africa, where a little bit fat is good.
姑娘们记住，这里是非洲，胖一点就好了。
Or maybe her skin is so smooth, some people like put questions behind that.
或者也许她的皮肤太光滑了，有些人喜欢在这背后提出问题。
They don't think this person is normal.
他们不认为这个人是正常人。
Like they have the virus.
就像他们有病毒一样。
Because they look too good?
因为他们长得太好看了？
Hazel Namandingo Yeah, they look too good.
Hazel Namandingo 是的，它们看起来太好了。
Because the ARVs can make your skin smooth?
因为抗逆转录病毒药物可以让你的皮肤变得光滑？
Yeah, that's what most people say.
是的，大多数人都是这么说的。
That's the explanation that is going around right now.
这就是现在流行的解释。
Hazel herself happens to be uncommonly beautiful, and she's been the subject of rumors too.
海兹尔本人恰好长得异常美丽，而且她也一直是谣言的对象。
But she says her job saves her from the worst of it.
但她说，她的工作让她免于陷入最糟糕的境地。
Her neighbors know that her work is connected to a white person, which means she's probably well paid in dollars, and so can afford to take care of herself and wear nice clothes.
她的邻居知道她的工作与白人有关，这意味着她的工资可能很高，因此有能力照顾自己并穿漂亮的衣服。
There's an explanation for her beauty.
她的美丽是有一个解释的。
But if you're a girl without a job, who looks good and dresses expensively, then you're suspect.
但如果你是一个没有工作、长得漂亮、穿得很贵的女孩，那么你就会受到怀疑。
Because that means you must be sleeping around, getting money from men.
因为这意味着你一定是在鬼混，从男人那里骗钱。
Which means you could be infected.
这意味着你可能被感染。
Mostly the beautiful ones are a cause of alarm.
大多数美丽的东西都会引起恐慌。
If you're not so attractive you're safe.
如果你没那么有吸引力，你就安全了。
Safe from what?
远离什么？
You're safe to have sex with?
与你发生性关系安全吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Sarah Koenig You have to be a bit careful about AIDS gossip though.
莎拉·柯尼格 不过，你必须对艾滋病八卦保持谨慎。
Hazel told me you can get taken to court.
黑兹尔告诉我你可以被告上法庭。
That is, someone can bring a case against you to the local chief if you accuse them of having AIDS.
也就是说，如果您指控某人患有艾滋病，则可以向当地酋长提起针对您的诉讼。
And if you don't have proof, which almost no one does, you can get fined.
如果您没有证据（几乎没有人这样做），您可能会被罚款。
It's understandable, being accused of having AIDS when you don't, that's a rumor that's a very, very hard to shake.
这是可以理解的，当你没有感染艾滋病时却被指控患有艾滋病，这是一个非常非常难以动摇的谣言。
And it can ruin your life.
它会毁掉你的生活。
In Malawi, Hazel says, it's among the top three things you don't want to be accused of.
哈兹尔说，在马拉维，这是你最不想被指责的三件事之一。
The other two are being a witch and practising satanism.
另外两个是女巫，信奉撒旦教。
So while no one exactly condones gossiping where Hazel lives, everyone knows that sometimes it's required.
因此，虽然没有人完全容忍在 Hazel 居住的地方八卦，但每个人都知道有时这是必要的。
Take the case of this one neighbor of Hazel's, a young woman.
以黑兹尔的一位年轻邻居为例。
She used to be good looking, but then she lost a lot of weight.
以前她长得很漂亮，但是后来瘦了很多。
Rumors started that she had AIDS, and that she was going out with a couple of men in town.
有传言称她患有艾滋病，并且她正在与城里的几个男人约会。
When the gossip got back to her, she started keeping to herself, not really leaving the house or doing the normal things she liked to do.
当流言蜚语传到她耳中时，她开始独处，不真正离开家，也不做她喜欢做的正常事情。
Until, finally, she went to the hospital and got on ARVs, saved herself.
直到最后，她去医院服用抗逆转录病毒药物，才救了自己。
But the danger for the men in town is that now she doesn't look like she has AIDS at all.
但镇上男人面临的危险是，现在她看起来根本不像患有艾滋病。
Her disease is hidden.
她的病是隐藏的。
She's a one-woman public health threat.
她是一位对公共健康构成威胁的女性。
The thing is, when men see her now, like she's healthy.
问题是，当男人现在看到她时，就像她很健康一样。
She got back a little bit of weight, and you really can't tell that she has AIDS.
她的体重又恢复了一些，你根本看不出她患有艾滋病。
So I would say it's really tricky.
所以我想说这真的很棘手。
Like, to say, in this way is gossip good for her, was it good for the society?
比如说，这样的八卦对她有好处，对社会有好处吗？
Was it bad for her, was it bad for the society?
这对她不利，对社会不利吗？
But, I would still say for her it was good, because it made her make that decision, which she wouldn't have made if people weren't gossiping about her.
但是，我仍然会对她说这很好，因为这让她做出了这个决定，如果人们不八卦她，她就不会做出这个决定。
But for many in our society, I think, it's not good.
但我认为，对于我们社会中的许多人来说，这并不好。
Because now she's healthy and more attractive than she was.
因为现在她很健康，也比以前更有魅力了。
So if someone new came to the neighborhood, maybe someone you liked, or became friends with her, or was a relative and said, "oh, look at your attractive neighbor.
因此，如果有新人来到附近，也许是你喜欢的人，或者与她成为朋友，或者是亲戚，他会说：“哦，看看你迷人的邻居。
I think I would like to ask her out." Would you gossip and say, "look, I know she looks good, but she's got the virus, you should know that." Or do you feel like you can't gossip that way, because it's too, possibly, harmful for her?
我想我想约她出去。”你会八卦地说：“看，我知道她看起来不错，但她感染了病毒，你应该知道这一点。”或者你觉得你不能那样说八卦，因为这对她来说可能太有害了？
What's the right thing to do?
什么是正确的做法？
I think I'll gossip because of seeing the way she looked before.
我想我会因为看到她以前的样子而八卦。
Yeah, I'll tell my share of the gossip that I've heard.
是的，我会分享我听到的八卦。
You could call it gossiping.
你可以称之为八卦。
Or you could call it using your social network to educate those around you about how AIDS works and how to avoid getting it.
或者，您可以使用社交网络来教育您周围的人有关艾滋病的发病机制以及如何避免感染艾滋病。
That's what a sociologist named Susan Watkins would call it.
社会学家苏珊·沃特金斯 (Susan Watkins) 就是这么称呼它的。
Because what Hazel's been doing all this time with her friends and family, all the gossiping, that is the basis for a huge research project.
因为黑兹尔一直在和她的朋友和家人一起做的事情，所有的八卦，都是一个巨大研究项目的基础。
Watkins, along with colleagues and grad students, has spent more than 10 years looking at how people's social interactions, including their gossip, shape their attitudes about AIDS, first in Kenya then Malawi.
沃特金斯与同事和研究生花了十多年的时间研究人们的社交互动（包括八卦）如何影响他们对艾滋病的态度，首先是在肯尼亚，然后是马拉维。
She spends about two months a year in Africa.
她每年大约在非洲呆两个月。
She was initially researching family planning, but her field work kept getting interrupted by funerals.
她最初是在研究计划生育，但她的实地工作不断被葬礼打断。
Sometimes local people were going to three or four a week of people who died of AIDS.
有时当地人每周都会去看望三四个死于艾滋病的人。
So she switched to focus on AIDS.
于是她转而关注艾滋病。
Watkins started researching people's sexual behavior the way most sociologists do, with surveys.
沃特金斯开始像大多数社会学家那样通过调查来研究人们的性行为。
But the information respondents were giving her wasn't all that accurate.
但受访者向她提供的信息并不那么准确。
After all, she was an outsider.
毕竟，她是一个外人。
A stranger holding a clipboard.
一个拿着剪贴板的陌生人。
People didn't want to tell her all the details of their sex lives.
人们不想告诉她他们性生活的所有细节。
To figure out what rural Malawians really thought, Watkins needed to hear what they said to each other when she wasn't around.
为了弄清楚马拉维农村人的真实想法，沃特金斯需要听听当她不在时他们互相说些什么。
She needed to eavesdrop.
她需要偷听。
So she hired local people she knew to keep journals.
因此，她聘请了她认识的当地人来写日记。
So I just said, why don't you just listen.
所以我就说，你为什么不听听呢？
Wherever you go, in the course of your daily life, if you hear anybody talking about AIDS just listen and then go home later in the evening and write it down.
无论您走到哪里，在日常生活中，如果您听到有人谈论艾滋病，只需倾听，然后晚上回家并写下来。
And write it down as specifically as you can in exactly the words that they used.
并用他们使用的词语尽可能具体地写下来。
She ended up with thousands and thousands of pages of preserved public gossip written by hand in school notebooks and spanning more than a decade.
她最终在学校笔记本上手写了数千页保存下来的公共八卦，时间跨度十多年。
Conversations at markets, funerals, bars, churches, water wells.
在市场、葬礼、酒吧、教堂、水井上进行交谈。
And the contents were surprising.
而且内容令人惊讶。
The journals bucked much of the conventional wisdom about how rural Malawians were dealing with the AIDS epidemic on the ground.
这些期刊与关于马拉维农村人如何应对艾滋病流行的传统观点相悖。
I realized that what these conversations, these gossip that was going on as people talk to each other about, did you see so and so is looking thin?
我意识到这些谈话，这些当人们互相交谈时发生的八卦，你看到某某人看起来很瘦吗？
Or did you see so and so?
或者你看到了某某？
She's got shingles, and so she probably has AIDS?
她得了带状疱疹，所以她可能患有艾滋病？
That there was just a lot of talk going on.
只是有很多谈话正在进行。
And what was the prevailing wisdom among researchers about the way this was getting talked about or not talked about it in a place like rural Malawi?
在像马拉维农村这样的地方，研究人员对于如何谈论或不谈论这个问题的普遍看法是什么？
Well, the prevailing view wasn't so much that of the researchers as that of the prevention community.
好吧，普遍的观点与其说是研究人员的观点，不如说是预防界的观点。
Which would be the NGOs and the donors that were contributing money to have campaigns that would stem the tide of the epidemic.
其中包括非政府组织和捐助者，他们捐款开展旨在遏制流行病蔓延的运动。
And their prevailing wisdom was that people don't talk about AIDS.
他们普遍认为人们不会谈论艾滋病。
It's a taboo topic.
这是一个禁忌话题。
They don't talk about sex.
他们不谈论性。
And the Malawian elites, who work for the NGOs, said that as well.
为非政府组织工作的马拉维精英也这么说。
No our people don't talk about AIDS and don't talk about sex.
不，我们的人民不谈论艾滋病，也不谈论性。
But of course, we found out right away that they do.
当然，我们很快就发现他们确实这么做了。
And they talk a lot.
他们聊了很多。
And they say very pertinent things to HIV prevention.
他们所说的话与艾滋病毒预防非常相关。
I have to say, having read a bunch of excerpts of the journals, that was the thing that surprised me immediately was they talk about sex all the time.
我不得不说，读了一堆期刊的摘录后，让我立即感到惊讶的是他们一直在谈论性。
There was one wonderful conversation that I didn't send you, which was some guys in a trading center, just a little market area, standing around and talking.
有一次精彩的谈话，我没有发给你，那是在一个交易中心，一个小市场区域，一些人站在那里说话。
And one of them says, "Hey guys, I've got--"
其中一人说：“嘿伙计们，我有——”
What he's got is a little too graphic for public radio.
对于公共广播来说，他所得到的内容有点太生动了。
So let's just say, he's got an infection.
所以我们只能说，他感染了。
And the other guys say, "Well, what is it?" And he said, "Well, I don't know what it is." And they said, "Well, maybe your underwear is too tight" And he said, "No, my underwear isn't too tight." And then they said, "Well, maybe you've got a crack in your foreskin?" And he said, "No, I've looked at my foreskin, and I don't have a crack there." And then another guy chimed up and said, "You know, I think this might be gonorrhea.
其他人说：“嗯，那是什么？”他说：“好吧，我不知道那是什么。”他们说，“好吧，也许你的内裤太紧了”，他说，“不，我的内裤不太紧。”然后他们说：“好吧，也许你的包皮上有裂缝？”他说：“不，我检查过我的包皮，那里没有裂缝。”然后另一个人插话道：“你知道，我认为这可能是淋病。
And if it is gonorrhea you better get it treated very quickly." And then somebody else jokingly said, "And, if you have gonorrhea, it's going to smell, and green flies are going to follow you." And then they all roared with laughter.
如果是淋病，你最好尽快治疗。”然后另一个人开玩笑地说：“而且，如果你患有淋病，它就会发出臭味，绿苍蝇就会跟着你。”然后他们都哈哈大笑。
And then they said, "Well, how do you think you got it?" And the guy said, "I don't know." He said, "Because I'm faithful to my girlfriend, and she's faithful to me." And at that point the guys laugh raucously and say, "Well, if that's the case, you couldn't possibly have what you have.
然后他们说：“好吧，你认为你是怎么得到它的？”那个人说：“我不知道。”他说：“因为我对我女朋友忠诚，她对我也忠诚。”就在那时，这些家伙大声笑了起来，说道：“好吧，如果是这样的话，你就不可能拥有你所拥有的东西。
So, if it's not you, it must be your girlfriend.
所以，如果不是你，那一定是你女朋友。
So you ought to get rid of her.
所以你应该摆脱她。
You ought to divorce her." And the guy says, "Oh, I can't divorce her." He says, "I've bought her already three pair of jeans at the PEP store in Blantyre, and two blouses, and a pair of sandals." So clearly, he had made an investment in this woman and was not yet ready to give her up.
你应该和她离婚。”那个人说：“哦，我不能和她离婚。”他说：“我已经在布兰太尔的 PEP 商店给她买了三条牛仔裤、两件衬衫和一双凉鞋。”很显然，他已经对这个女人进行了投资，还不准备放弃她。
Unfortunately, we don't know the end.
不幸的是，我们不知道结局。
I think actually did read that one.
我想确实读过那一篇。
And he also says, "No, I love her." He loves her.
他还说：“不，我爱她。”他爱她。
No, I love her.
不，我爱她。
And anyway, I bought her all this stuff, exactly.
不管怎样，这些东西都是我给她买的。
And he also says, if I remember, "Well, if she's got it, I already have it anyway.
如果我记得的话，他还说，“好吧，如果她得到了，无论如何我也已经得到了。
And if she has HIV, I've already got it then anyway, so what's the point of giving her up."
如果她感染了艾滋病毒，那么我已经感染了，那么放弃她还有什么意义呢。”
Exactly.
确切地。
That's a major misconception among Malawians-- and also, I've worked in Botswana and Swaziland and there I think it's all over-- that they vastly overestimate the probability of transmission in a single act of intercourse with an infected person.
这是马拉维人的一个主要误解——而且，我曾在博茨瓦纳和斯威士兰工作过，我认为一切都结束了——他们大大高估了与感染者的单次性交行为中传播的可能性。
About 97% of our respondents said, it was certain or highly likely.
大约 97% 的受访者表示，这是肯定的或很有可能。
And that's far from the truth.
但这远非事实。
It's actually quite difficult to transmit HIV.
事实上，艾滋病毒的传播是相当困难的。
But the people believe that.
但人们相信这一点。
If you lie together, you die together, they say.
他们说，如果你们躺在一起，你们就会一起死。
So that allows this guy to say, well, there is no point in breaking up with her.
所以这让这个男人说，好吧，和她分手没有意义。
And it also allows people to say, well, there's no point in my getting tested.
这也让人们可以说，好吧，我接受测试是没有意义的。
I must be positive.
我必须积极。
I just had so many girlfriends.
我刚刚有过很多女朋友。
Oh, that's interesting.
哦，这很有趣。
Because I was thinking maybe having that level of fear, like even one time and I'm doomed, might be kind of good.
因为我在想，也许有那种程度的恐惧，就像即使只有一次，我就注定了，可能是件好事。
Like telling your kids, you'll get pregnant if you have sex even one time as a preventive thing.
就像告诉你的孩子一样，如果你作为预防措施进行一次性行为，你就会怀孕。
But you're saying, it actually can have the other affect too, which is making you blase.
但你是说，它实际上也会产生其他影响，让你感到厌烦。
Yeah, why would you use a condom.
是的，为什么要使用避孕套。
Nobody likes to use a condom.
没有人喜欢使用安全套。
So if you're sure you're already infected, no way would you use a condom.
因此，如果您确定自己已经被感染，就绝对不会使用安全套。
Anyway, the women don't want to use condoms.
无论如何，女人不想使用安全套。
Right, nobody seems to like the condoms.
是的，似乎没有人喜欢避孕套。
There's one quote that I love.
有一句话我很喜欢。
That it said, using a condom oh, it's like eating sweets in a wrapper.
就是说，使用避孕套哦，就像吃包装纸里的糖果一样。
Yeah, that is all over Africa.
是的，整个非洲都是如此。
And everybody tells it.
每个人都这么说。
They like slap their knee as if they are the first ones who ever told it.
他们喜欢拍膝盖，就好像他们是第一个说出来的人一样。
You can't eat sweets in a wrapper.
你不能吃包装纸里的糖果。
And then they go ho, ho, ho.
然后他们就嗬，嗬，嗬。
But it's absolutely all over the place.
但它绝对无处不在。
It's funny every time.
每次都很有趣。
Susan Watkins Yeah, funny every time.
苏珊·沃特金斯 是的，每次都很有趣。
The other thing that I noticed reading them, or it just occurred to me, is that there seems to be a lot of gossip around, a lot of gossip around.
我在阅读它们时注意到的另一件事，或者我刚刚想到的，是周围似乎有很多八卦，很多八卦。
And I'm thinking like, is that different from us?
我在想，这和我们有什么不同吗？
And then I thought, nah, probably not.
然后我想，不，可能不会。
But the level of it was really-- I was like, man alive.
但它的水平真的是——我想，人还活着。
You really got to be careful what you say and do, I mean, because people are watching.
我的意思是，你真的必须小心你的言行，因为人们正在看着。
These are small communities with houses close to each other.
这些都是小社区，房屋彼此靠近。
They're mud huts with thatched roofs just like you see in National Geographic pictures of rural Africa.
它们是带有茅草屋顶的泥屋，就像您在《国家地理》非洲乡村照片中看到的那样。
And, I think, because their houses are dark, there isn't electricity, people spend a lot of time outside.
而且，我认为，因为他们的房子很黑，没有电，人们花了很多时间在外面。
And that probably makes gossip happen more than if everybody is in their house with a half an acre yard around it.
这可能比每个人都呆在周围有半英亩院子的房子里更容易发生八卦。
And they have to walk a lot of places to get water, to go to the market.
他们必须走很多地方去取水、去市场。
So there's just a lot of conversation all the time.
所以一直都有很多谈话。
Yeah.
是的。
They use these stories to launch discussions about how they can prevent themselves from getting AIDS.
他们利用这些故事发起关于如何预防艾滋病的讨论。
Saying, well, this person surely got AIDS because he said he would never use a condom.
说，好吧，这个人肯定得了艾滋病，因为他说他永远不会使用安全套。
Whereas this person probably got AIDS through his wife, because she used to be married to so and so, who died of AIDS.
而这个人很可能是通过他的妻子感染了艾滋病，因为她曾经与某某结婚，而某某则死于艾滋病。
Because gossiping about these people is really the only way to find that stuff out, right?
因为八卦这些人确实是找出这些东西的唯一方法，对吧？
Yeah, and in fact, they sometimes, when the men are gossiping or talking, they say, Timun died of AIDS, but he died because he didn't ask us.
是的，事实上，有时，当人们闲聊或交谈时，他们说，蒂蒙死于艾滋病，但他死了，因为他没有问我们。
He didn't tell us he wanted to go with this partner and ask us for our opinion.
他没有告诉我们他想和这个伙伴一起去并询问我们的意见。
If he had done that, we would have told him that she used to be married to Matthew, and Matthew worked in South Africa and came back with AIDS and died of it.
如果他这样做了，我们就会告诉他，她曾经与马修结婚，马修在南非工作，回来时患有艾滋病并死于艾滋病。
So we would've told him, no, don't go for her.
所以我们会告诉他，不，不要去找她。
But he didn't ask us, so it's really his own fault.
但他没有问我们，所以这确实是他自己的错。
He knows better than that.
他比那更清楚。
I was really struck by a one of Simon's entries from 2003.
Simon 2003 年的一篇作品给我留下了深刻的印象。
I just was really struck by-- so this woman walks by, and they just diagnose her on the fly, and then it launches this whole thing.
我真的很震惊——所以这个女人走过，他们只是即时诊断她，然后就启动了整个事情。
And I'm wondering if you could just read that?
我想知道你能读一下吗？
It's your summary of what he's written, partly your summary, and partly his words, I think.
我想，这是你对他所写内容的总结，部分是你的总结，部分是他的话。
The journalist has gone to the trading center, which is a small market, to buy soap for his wife and fish for lunch.
记者来到交易中心，这是一个小市场，给妻子买了肥皂，午餐也买了鱼。
He chats with a fish vendor, who is a friend of his, and then they both chat with a customer, who has sores on her face.
他与一个鱼贩聊天，他是他的朋友，然后他们都与一位脸上有疮的顾客聊天。
Once she leaves they are joined by a neighboring vendor who had been listening.
她一离开，附近的一个小贩就加入了他们，他一直在听。
Together they diagnose the woman's condition as shingles, which they interpret as a symptom of AIDS.
他们一起诊断该妇女的病情为带状疱疹，并将其解释为艾滋病的症状。
They justify this diagnosis by providing a narrative of her sexual history.
他们通过讲述她的性史来证明这一诊断的合理性。
She's had four marriages all ending in divorce, because she was unfaithful.
她有过四段婚姻，全部以离婚告终，因为她不忠。
They then speculate as to whether her unfaithfulness was due to a need for money for her children or to lust.
然后他们猜测她的不忠是因为孩子需要钱还是出于欲望。
And why, in these days of the epidemic, any man would select her as a sexual partner.
又为什么，在疫情肆虐的这些年，任何一个男人都会选择她作为性伴侣。
One man went on saying that she's on the way to the graveyard.
一名男子继续说她正在去墓地的路上。
This is not a time of playing with men by doing sex with them.
现在不是通过与男人发生性关系来玩弄男人的时代。
Neither should men be playing with women by doing sex with them.
男人也不应该通过与女人发生性关系来玩弄她们。
We chatted and chatted, and finally we concluded by saying that, nowadays, it's better to just stop going with other sexual partners.
我们聊了又聊，最后我们得出的结论是，现在最好停止与其他性伴侣交往。
It's better that whenever you want sex you should select a bar girl, because one cannot think of having plain sex with a bar girl.
最好无论何时你想要做爱，你都应该选择一个酒吧女孩，因为人们不能想象与酒吧女孩发生简单的性行为。
Everyone knows that any bar girl has AIDS, and, therefore, everyone having sex with her protects himself by using condoms.
每个人都知道任何酒吧女孩都患有艾滋病，因此，每个与她发生性关系的人都会使用安全套来保护自己。
We chatted and chatted until I just bought the fish and left.
我们聊呀聊，直到我买完鱼就走了。
And just to be clear, when he says one cannot think of having plain sex with a bar girl, plain sex means sex without a condom?
需要澄清的是，当他说人们无法想象与酒吧女孩进行简单的性行为时，简单的性行为意味着不使用安全套的性行为吗？
With no-- yeah, right.
没有——是的，对。
Sarah Koenig I love how these back to back ideas of, well, you should just not sleep around.
莎拉·科尼格（Sarah Koenig）我喜欢这些背靠背的想法，嗯，你不应该到处乱睡。
And if you're going to sleep around, you should choose a bar girl, because we know she's a slut, so you're going to use a condom.
如果你要到处睡觉，你应该选择一个酒吧女孩，因为我们知道她是个荡妇，所以你要使用安全套。
There was one wonderful debate where somebody said, well, if we have to select partners, we should go with school girls, because they won't be infected.
有一场精彩的辩论，有人说，好吧，如果我们必须选择伴侣，我们应该选择女学生，因为她们不会被感染。
And then somebody else says, no, the school girls are all infected by the teachers.
然后有人说，不，女学生都是被老师传染的。
What you should really do is go for an ugly woman, because nobody else will have gone for her, so she's less likely to be infected.
你真正应该做的是去找一个丑陋的女人，因为没有其他人会去找她，所以她被感染的可能性较小。
What surprised you the most when you started getting these back and reading through them, like stuff you just did not expect to see?
当您开始取回并阅读这些内容时，最令您惊讶的是什么？就像您没想到会看到的内容一样？
I had some expectations before hand, because I'd done a little bit of this in Kenya.
我事先有一些期望，因为我在肯尼亚做过一些这样的事情。
So it wasn't quite as striking to me, the Malawi journals, as they would be to you.
因此，马拉维的期刊对我来说并不像对你们那样令人震惊。
But the variety of places that people talked about AIDS.
但人们在很多地方谈论艾滋病。
How, sometimes, it was just looking out the window.
有时，它只是看着窗外。
Somebody is on a bus, they look out a window, they see somebody thin, and the bus starts talking about it.
有人在公交车上，他们向窗外望去，看到有人很瘦，然后公交车上就开始谈论这件事。
Sometimes the bus driver gets into the story.
有时公交车司机也会参与到故事中。
I had not really appreciated these group aggregate, like buses, people on a bus.
我并没有真正欣赏这些群体，比如公共汽车，公共汽车上的人。
And a lot of the things we learned, including this, were against the conventional wisdom.
我们学到的很多东西，包括这一点，都违背了传统观念。
That people don't talk.
就是人们不说话。
They don't talk about sex.
他们不谈论性。
It's taboo.
这是禁忌。
That they're fatalistic.
他们是宿命论的。
Well, you can tell from these excerpts that they're not fatalistic.
嗯，从这些摘录中你可以看出它们并不是宿命论。
Wait, so some of the prevailing thought was that people in these communities just assume they're going to get AIDS and die?
等等，所以一些普遍的想法是这些社区的人们只是假设他们会感染艾滋病并死亡？
So there's nothing they can do about it?
那么他们对此无能为力吗？
That was the fatalism?
这就是宿命论？
Yeah, or another bit of the conventional wisdom was that they were in denial.
是的，或者另一种传统观点是他们否认这一点。
They're just going on as if AIDS didn't exist.
他们就好像艾滋病不存在一样。
They don't want to believe it, so they don't believe it.
他们不愿意相信，所以他们不相信。
But we see from the journals that they do believe it.
但我们从期刊上看到他们确实相信这一点。
And they do feel that they themselves are at risk.
他们确实感到自己处于危险之中。
But then added to that-- and something that's not at all in the agenda of the prevention community-- is partner selection.
但除此之外，还有合作伙伴的选择，这根本不在预防界的议程中。
And they advise each other to be careful.
他们互相建议要小心。
Before you select a partner, ask around, see what her behavior is, see who knows her.
在选择伴侣之前，请四处询问，看看她的行为是什么，看看谁认识她。
But has any of that prevailing wisdom that you've talked about, that you think is wrong, how is that then effecting prevention programs?
但是，您所谈论的流行智慧是否有任何您认为是错误的，那么它是如何影响预防计划的呢？
If you start with that premise, then what did it mean about the programs?
如果你从这个前提开始，那么这些程序意味着什么？
Well, it meant that they did some programs that weren't necessary.
嗯，这意味着他们做了一些不必要的程序。
Because they were telling them to talk about AIDS when they were already talking about AIDS.
因为当他们已经在谈论艾滋病时，他们却告诉他们谈论艾滋病。
Oh, so they were trying to encourage this kind of discussion, and you're saying it was already underway?
哦，所以他们试图鼓励这种讨论，你是说它已经在进行了？
It was already under way.
它已经在进行中。
Or they were trying to inform people that AIDS is here.
或者他们试图告诉人们艾滋病就在这里。
Well, you've seen yourself, they've known that for a long time.
好吧，你已经看到你自己了，他们很早就知道这一点了。
So I think what that stuff did was justify spending money on things that, to be fair, the prevention community thought would be important, because they didn't know what was going on outside of their offices, basically.
所以我认为这些东西的作用是证明把钱花在预防社区认为重要的事情上是合理的，因为他们基本上不知道办公室外发生了什么。
When you have talked about the contents of these journals and what they show, has the response changed?
当您谈论这些期刊的内容及其展示的内容时，反应是否发生了变化？
Has programming responded to your research?
编程对你的研究有回应吗？
No. I don't think so.
不，我不这么认为。
Sarah Koenig The problem, says Watkins, is that Malawi depends on outside money for AIDS prevention, big donors and NGOs.
莎拉·科尼格 沃特金斯说，问题在于马拉维在艾滋病预防方面依赖外部资金、大捐助者和非政府组织。
And so to make sure that money keeps coming, the Malawi government tailors its AIDS prevention strategies to whatever the international trends are.
因此，为了确保资金源源不断地流入，马拉维政府根据国际趋势制定了艾滋病预防战略。
Even if those trends are based on assumptions about real Africans that aren't necessarily true.
即使这些趋势是基于对真实非洲人的假设，但也不一定是真的。
You have to be sympathetic to somebody sitting in Washington, DC at the offices of USAID.
你必须对坐在华盛顿特区美国国际开发署办公室的人表示同情。
How are they going to know what goes on?
他们如何知道发生了什么？
What they know, generally, about rural Malawians comes through the Malawian elites, largely, because those are the people they interact with.
一般来说，他们对马拉维农村人的了解主要来自马拉维精英，因为他们是与他们打交道的人。
And they have very strong views.
他们有非常强烈的观点。
And so for the elites, AIDS is spread by people who aren't like us.
因此，对于精英来说，艾滋病是由与我们不同的人传播的。
AIDS is spread by superstitious, backward villagers.
艾滋病是由迷信、落后的村民传播的。
And AIDS is spread by sex workers.
艾滋病是由性工作者传播的。
And AIDS is spread by sugar daddies.
艾滋病是靠糖爹传播的。
So there's some of these usual suspects.
所以有一些常见的嫌疑人。
And even when there's very strong evidence against those, they just don't believe it.
即使有非常有力的证据反对这些，他们就是不相信。
Let me give you an example.
让我举个例子。
Where nobody ever says, the problem, the driver of the epidemic, is men with money.
没有人说过，问题和流行病的驱动因素是有钱人。
And yet the evidence shows, very clearly, that the highest prevalence is among the wealthiest and most educated men.
然而，证据非常清楚地表明，最富有和受教育程度最高的男性患病率最高。
I know.
我知道。
But when I suggest, well, why don't we go after the elite men?
但当我建议，好吧，我们为什么不去追寻精英呢？
People just look at me like I'm totally nuts.
人们只是看着我，就像我完全疯了一样。
I think it's just seen as an impossibility.
我认为这只是被视为不可能。
It's seen as men's nature.
这被视为男人的天性。
So it's better to try to train women to negotiate condom use and to protect themselves than it is to pay any attention to the men.
因此，最好尝试培训女性如何使用安全套并保护自己，而不是关注男性。
If it were up to her, she said, she spend every penny of AIDS prevention money on the one new thing that's been proved effective scientifically, that is on male circumcision.
她说，如果由她决定，她会把每一分钱预防艾滋病的钱都花在一项经科学证明有效的新事物上，那就是男性包皮环切术。
I can see the meeting now.
我现在可以看到会议了。
The 72-year-old white woman sits down with Malawi's health minister, various other government and NGO officials in suits, and tells them, forget the prostitutes and bar girls.
这位 72 岁的白人妇女与马拉维卫生部长、其他身着西装的政府和非政府组织官员坐在一起，告诉他们，忘掉妓女和酒吧女孩吧。
You all need to go get yourselves circumcised.
你们都需要去接受割礼。
Good luck with that.
祝你好运。
Susan Watkins is a professor at UPenn and a visiting research scientist at The California Center for Population Research at UCLA.
苏珊·沃特金斯 (Susan Watkins) 是宾夕法尼亚大学教授，也是加州大学洛杉矶分校加州人口研究中心的客座研究科学家。
The more than 1000 journals she's collected from Malawi are being catalogued now.
她从马拉维收集的 1000 多种期刊现在正在编目。
You can read some of them on the website of her project.
您可以在她的项目网站上阅读其中一些内容。
The link to that is on our website, thisamericanlife.org.
该链接位于我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org 上。
[MUSIC - "PEOPLE GONNA TALK" BY JAMES HUNTER]
[音乐 - 詹姆斯·亨特的《人们会说话》]
Coming up, Leo likes Astrid, pass it on.
接下来，利奥喜欢阿斯特丽德，请转发。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.
一分钟后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Sarah Koenig.
我是莎拉·柯尼格。
Ira Glass is away, so I'm filling in as host.
艾拉·格拉斯不在，所以我代替主持人。
Today's show, gossip.
今天的节目，八卦。
An especially low form of gossip is backbiting, low, but entertaining.
八卦的一种特别低级的形式是诽谤，低级但有趣。
It's what we've been watching slack-jawed for the past decade on reality TV.
这就是过去十年来我们在电视真人秀上目瞪口呆地观看的内容。
It's the engine of a million plots, because it never runs dry, especially, if you make it up.
它是一百万个情节的引擎，因为它永远不会枯竭，特别是如果你编造它的话。
Novelist Rebecca Makkai has this short story.
小说家丽贝卡·麦凯有这样一个短篇故事。
Markus is a gifted crier.
马库斯是一位有天赋的哭者。
We just say, "Tell us how your grandfather would feel," and he gushes like Miss America.
我们只是说，“告诉我们你祖父会有什么感受，”他就像美国小姐一样滔滔不绝。
"My grandfather would be so proud of me," he says, and blows a kiss to the sky.
“我的祖父会为我感到骄傲，”他说，并向天空飞吻。
Or we ask if he feels that his whole life has been a struggle?
或者我们问他是否觉得自己的一生都是一场斗争？
He says, "I just feel like my whole life has been just this huge struggle," and then he starts snorting and choking and holds up a finger.
他说，“我只是觉得我的一生就是一场巨大的斗争”，然后他开始打喷嚏、窒息，并举起一根手指。
The producers love the criers.
制片人喜欢哭泣者。
And they love the cocky bastards.
他们喜欢那些自大的混蛋。
And they love the snarky gay men.
他们喜欢尖酸刻薄的男同性恋者。
The others we try to get drunk.
其他人我们试图喝醉。
We flirt with the straight guys, if there are any.
如果有的话，我们会和异性恋者调情。
If necessary, we feed them lines.
如有必要，我们会喂它们线。
I don't try very hard anymore to explain to Beth what I do, why my voice is never on the show.
我不再努力向贝丝解释我做了什么，为什么我的声音从来没有出现在节目中。
Really, I think she's pretending to be confused.
真的，我觉得她是在假装困惑。
I think she likes saying, "OK, but why don't they just have the contestants talk to the camera on their own?
我想她喜欢说：“好吧，但是为什么他们不让参赛者自己对着镜头说话呢？
Aren't they smart enough?"
他们还不够聪明吗？”
If I tried to tell her about Sabrina screaming at the judges, or Astrid getting drunk she says, "Don't tell.
如果我试图告诉她有关萨布丽娜向法官尖叫或阿斯特丽德喝醉的事情，她会说：“别告诉。
You'll ruin the show for me." Even though, half the time, she doesn't watch what I've worked on.
你会毁了我的演出。”尽管如此，有一半的时间她并不看我所做的事情。
And so I stopped talking, because what else could I possibly talk about.
于是我不再说话，因为我还能谈论什么。
Hour after hour, Inez and I sit, side by side, in folding chairs.
一小时又一小时，伊内兹和我并排坐在折叠椅上。
The contestants sit on what looks like a throne, something oak and leather the producers found in the library.
参赛者坐在一个看起来像王座的东西上，这是制片人在图书馆找到的橡木和皮革制成的东西。
Inez is great at maintaining a lethally bored expression, so that whoever we're interviewing feels compelled to say more and more interesting things, more outrageous, more emotional.
伊内兹很擅长保持一种极其无聊的表情，所以无论我们采访的是谁，都会觉得有必要说更多更有趣的事情，更离谱、更情绪化。
We say, "We're not getting a character arc from you.
我们说，“我们没有从你那里得到角色弧线。
This is going to be boring TV." We say, "Remember this is a job.
这将是一部无聊的电视节目。”我们说：“记住这是一份工作。
We're paying you, and your job is to answer all the questions." Then we ask, "What do you hate about Leslie?"
我们付钱给你，你的工作就是回答所有问题。”然后我们问：“你讨厌莱斯利什么？”
"Yes, but you need to answer the question."
“是的，但是你需要回答这个问题。”
"Well, she's pretty sure or herself.
“嗯，她自己也很确定。
I mean she's good."
我的意思是她很好。”
We say, "That's great.
我们说：“那太好了。
Go with that.
就这样吧。
What does her confidence remind you of?"
她的自信让你想起了什么？”
"Like a gorilla?
“像大猩猩一样？
Like this big, silver-back gorilla that's bigger than you?"
就像这只比你还大的银背大猩猩？”
"That's what we're looking for," we say.
“这就是我们正在寻找的，”我们说。
"Now we need a full sentence about how you hate it."
“现在我们需要一个完整的句子来表达你有多讨厌它。”
"Leslie's been swaggering around like some big, silver-back gorilla, like beating her chest, and telling everyone how great she is.
“莱斯利像一只银背大猩猩一样大摇大摆地走来走去，喜欢捶胸顿足，告诉每个人她有多么伟大。
It's driving me crazy."
这让我发疯。”
If you've ever seen Starving Artist , if you've ever even heard of it, you'r probably a gay man between 25 and 40.
如果您看过《饥饿艺术家》，甚至听说过它，那么您可能是一名 25 岁到 40 岁之间的同性恋者。
We gather artists from all different fields-- this season a painter, a dancer, a poet, a glass-blower, a playwright, a piano composer-- and stick them in an old, defunct, artists' colony in northern Pennsylvania for 25 days.
我们聚集了来自不同领域的艺术家——这一季有画家、舞蹈家、诗人、玻璃吹制者、剧作家、钢琴作曲家——并将他们安置在宾夕法尼亚州北部一个古老的、已不复存在的艺术家聚居地25天。
We give them prompts.
我们给他们提示。
The first episode was nightmare, then Shakespeare, then baseball.
第一集是噩梦，然后是莎士比亚，然后是棒球。
They work for a day and a half, creating something small, and potentially beautiful, and always tragically rushed.
他们工作一天半，创造一些小而潜在的美丽的东西，但总是悲惨地匆忙。
And then they're judged, eliminated, given warnings, awarded prizes, the normal deal.
然后他们会受到评判、淘汰、警告、奖励，这是正常的处理。
The poor playwright got a 50 second performance limit on each play.
这位可怜的剧作家每部剧的表演时间限制为 50 秒。
He went home sobbing after the second elimination, twitching and covered in hives.
第二次淘汰后，他抽泣着回家，浑身抽搐，全身长满荨麻疹。
The winner gets an agent and a $200,000 grant.
获胜者将获得一名经纪人和 20 万美元的奖金。
The losers get publicity cut with humiliation.
失败者的形象会受到羞辱而被削减。
I come home, upset about the playwright.
我回到家，对剧作家感到不安。
And I try to tell Beth.
我试着告诉贝丝。
She says, "But I thought the point for these people was the exposure?"
她说：“但我认为这些人的重点是曝光？”
I say, "I don't think that's what he even wanted."
我说：“我认为这根本不是他想要的。”
He wasn't typical.
他并不典型。
His name was Lincoln, and he seemed so surprised by everything, so constantly startled by the number of people, and by our lifting his shirt to re-tape his mic.
他的名字叫林肯，他似乎对一切都感到非常惊讶，对人数如此之多，以及我们掀起他的衬衫重新给他的麦克风录音感到惊讶。
"People are going to remember him as the twitchy-hive guy," I say, "and I don't think he'll even know how to take advantage of the publicity."
“人们会记得他是一个神经质的家伙，”我说，“但我认为他甚至不知道如何利用公众的关注。”
Beth is knitting at the speed of light with tiny wooden needles.
贝丝正在用细小的木针以光速编织。
She's the kind of person who can undo a knot in any necklace and get a broken toaster to work again.
她是那种可以解开任何项链上的结并让坏掉的烤面包机重新工作的人。
That was how we met.
我们就是这样认识的。
We lived in the same building in LA.
我们住在洛杉矶的同一栋楼里。
And when she looked out her second story window and saw me throwing a toaster in the dumpster, she called down that she bet me it was just the heating element.
当她从二楼的窗户往外看，看到我把烤面包机扔进垃圾箱时，她向楼下喊道，她跟我打赌那只是加热元件。
And she could fix the calibration with a flat-head screwdriver and a beer.
她可以用平头螺丝刀和啤酒来完成校准。
Right now I shrug at her question.
现在我对她的问题耸耸肩。
But I don't know why Lincoln signed up for the show.
但我不知道林肯为什么报名参加这个节目。
Optimism, I suppose, but I don't say that.
我认为是乐观，但我不会这么说。
And this is the way a lot of our conversations have been ending, one of us asking a question, the other not answering.
我们很多谈话都是这样结束的，一个人问问题，另一个人不回答。
Eight days in, the producers tell us we need a romance arc.
八天后，制片人告诉我们，我们需要一段浪漫的弧线。
Kenneth says, "It has to be Leo and Astrid, because she's the hottest girl, and he's the only straight guy.
肯尼斯说：“一定是里奥和阿斯特丽德，因为她是最性感的女孩，而他是唯一的直男。
We have to go hetero on this." And then he says to me, "No offense, Christine.
我们必须在这方面走向异性恋。”然后他对我说：“无意冒犯，克里斯汀。
It's the network.
这是网络。
They're asses, and they don't get our demographic at all."
他们都是蠢货，根本不了解我们的人口统计数据。”
Inez says, "You expect us to make them fall in love?"
伊内兹说：“你希望我们让他们坠入爱河吗？”
He slurps his coffee through the lid and then looks at the ceiling, "Yep."
他通过盖子喝了一口咖啡，然后看着天花板，“是的。”
The next time Astrid sits down, she's just escaped elimination.
当阿斯特丽德下次坐下时，她刚刚逃脱了淘汰。
She's in that wonderful spot between ecstatic and vulnerable.
她正处于欣喜若狂和脆弱之间的美妙时刻。
She's the glass blower, and the judges are getting bored with her.
她是玻璃吹制者，评委们对她感到厌烦了。
I want to tell her she'll be safe if she can just pretend to love Leo, but I don't think she can act that well.
我想告诉她，如果她能假装爱Leo，她就会安全，但我不认为她能表现得那么好。
So I say, "How do you feel about Leo being the only straight guy here?"
所以我说，“你觉得 Leo 作为这里唯一的直男怎么样？”
Astrid has long blond hair with a pale-blue streak.
阿斯特丽德有一头带有淡蓝色条纹的金色长发。
Her nose is pierced and she's beautiful.
她的鼻子打了洞，很漂亮。
If you saw her on the street, you'd think she was already famous.
如果你在街上看到她，你会认为她已经很有名了。
"I think Leo is getting along well with everyone.
“我认为利奥和每个人都相处得很好。
It's got to be hard being the only straight guy here," she says to the camera.
作为这里唯一的直男一定很难，”她对着镜头说道。
Inez takes over, "Can you see anything happening between the two of you?"
伊内兹接过话头，“你能看到你们两个之间发生了什么吗？”
"I don't see anything happening between me and Leo," she says.
“我认为我和利奥之间没有发生任何事情，”她说。
But she's blushing, so we can use it.
但她脸红了，所以我们可以使用它。
"He's cute, but I'm focusing on my art right now."
“他很可爱，但我现在专注于我的艺术。”
I would have stopped there knowing we got, "He's cute," but Inez keeps going.
如果我知道我们会说“他很可爱”，我就会停下来，但伊内兹继续前进。
"What do you think about his flirting with you?
“你觉得他跟你调情怎么样？
Is it distracting you from the challenges?"
它会分散你对挑战的注意力吗？”
Astrid tilts her head, and her hair falls down in waves.
阿斯特丽德歪着头，头发波浪般地垂下来。
"I don't think he is."
“我不认为他是。”
"But if he were, would that bother you?"
“但如果他是，你会介意吗？”
"No." "Can you say it in a full sentence?"
“不。” “你能用完整的句子说出来吗？”
Astrid rolls her eyes.
阿斯特丽德翻白眼。
"It wouldn't bother me if Leo flirted." Bingo.
“如果利奥调情，我不会介意。”宾果游戏。
We tell Leo, "So Astrid told us she thinks you're cute.
我们告诉利奥，“阿斯特丽德告诉我们她认为你很可爱。
She said, she wouldn't mind if you flirted a little."
她说，如果你调情一点，她不介意。”
There's a sudden wash of blood under his pale, freckled skin.
他苍白、长满雀斑的皮肤下突然流淌着血迹。
I say, "What do you like about Astrid?"
我说：“你喜欢阿斯特丽德什么？”
"Astrid is a talented glass-blower.
“阿斯特丽德是一位才华横溢的玻璃吹制者。
I think she's a real threat."
我认为她是一个真正的威胁。”
"Do you think she likes your music?"
“你觉得她喜欢你的音乐吗？”
"I hope that Astrid likes my music." At least 90% of his blood is in his face now.
“我希望阿斯特丽德喜欢我的音乐。”现在他的脸上至少有百分之九十的血。
With a smile to let him know she's not really serious, but that she still expects an answer, Inez says, "A lot of viewers will be wondering if you're really gay.
伊内兹微笑着让他知道她并不是认真的，但她仍然期待得到答案，“很多观众会想知道你是否真的是同性恋。
Are you?"
你是吗？”
"I'm not gay.
“我不是同性恋。
I'm attracted to women.
我对女人很感兴趣。
There are a few cute girls here."
这里有几个可爱的女孩。”
Inez looks triumphant.
伊内兹看起来得意洋洋。
They'll use that last sentence over a shot of him awkwardly stepping aside to let Astrid pass in the dining room.
他们会用最后一句话来代替他尴尬地走到一边让阿斯特丽德进入餐厅的镜头。
Back at our little temporary apartment in town above the old lady's garage, Beth spends hours trying to figure out what she feels.
回到我们位于镇上老太太车库上方的临时小公寓，贝丝花了几个小时试图弄清楚她的感受。
She'll start sentences this way, "It's just that sometimes, I think that maybe I feel like--"
她会这样开始句子，“只是有时候，我想也许我感觉——”
I imagine her chasing her emotions with a stick-pin, trying to jab them into place before they get away again.
我想象她用一根大头针追逐自己的情绪，试图在它们再次逃脱之前将它们刺入到位。
They always get away again.
他们总是会再次逃脱。
All day long, while she's supposed to be designing websites, she sits on the couch writing in her journal, trying to decide if she wants to stay with me.
一整天，当她应该设计网站时，她坐在沙发上写日记，试图决定是否愿意和我在一起。
Then when I get home, she reads me her journal.
然后当我回到家时，她给我读她的日记。
I tell her she'd give great interview.
我告诉她她会接受很好的采访。
But really she wouldn't.
但她确实不会。
The camera doesn't have patience for someone who feels iffy, who weighs the options, who equivocates.
对于那些感觉不确定、权衡各种选择、模棱两可的人，相机没有耐心。
And maybe that's why I want to throttle Beth when she tells me she's been making a list of the pros and cons, she says, of our relationship.
也许这就是为什么当贝丝告诉我她正在列出我们关系的利弊时，我想扼杀她，她说。
I ignore this, and tell her how Inez and I are making two people fall in love.
我忽略了这一点，并告诉她伊内兹和我如何让两个人坠入爱河。
Inez is mad that she can't flirt with Leo now.
伊内兹很生气，因为她现在不能和利奥调情了。
She says, "He was the only cute guy here."
她说：“他是这里唯一可爱的家伙。”
She means out of everyone, the crew, the producers, the cast, and the entire population of Straithersburg, Pennsylvania where we've all flocked like refugees from LA and set-up camp.
她指的是宾夕法尼亚州斯特雷瑟斯堡的所有人、工作人员、制片人、演员以及全体居民，我们都像来自洛杉矶和建立营地的难民一样涌入那里。
Kenneth tells us they have footage now of Leo and Astrid giggling in a hallway, choosing adjacent seats at the big dinner table, taking an early morning jog.
肯尼斯告诉我们，他们现在有里奥和阿斯特丽德在走廊里咯咯笑、在大餐桌上选择相邻座位、清晨慢跑的镜头。
"My genius cupids," he calls us.
“我的天才丘比特，”他称呼我们。
I've done sleazier things every day for the past five years, but for some reason, this one is starting to feel wrong.
在过去的五年里，我每天都在做一些肮脏的事情，但出于某种原因，这件事开始感觉不对劲。
Beth is getting to me maybe.
贝丝也许正在接近我。
Or maybe it's something about being outside of LA, here in the real world, where the normal rules of behavior should somehow apply.
或者也许是在洛杉矶之外，在现实世界中，正常的行为规则应该以某种方式适用。
Kenneth slaps me on the shoulder.
肯尼斯拍拍我的肩膀。
"We're changing the next prompt to love.
“我们正在将下一个提示改为“爱”。
This should be good stuff, Christine."
这应该是好东西，克里斯汀。”
When Astrid sits down in the interview chair, she asks if we can turn the cameras off.
当阿斯特丽德坐在采访椅上时，她问我们是否可以关掉摄像机。
"Sure," we say.
“当然，”我们说。
And give Blake, the camera guy, the signal to cover the red light, but keep taping.
给摄像师布莱克一个信号，让他遮住红灯，但继续录像。
She leans forward and says, "I know what you guys are trying to do with your questions about Leo.
她倾身向前说道：“我知道你们想对利奥的问题做什么。
I get that you're supposed to create drama and everything but frankly this is insulting."
我知道你应该创造戏剧性的东西，但坦率地说，这是一种侮辱。”
I look at Inez.
我看着伊内兹。
"All we're doing," she says, "our role, is just to speed along what would happen in the real world if we had a lot more time.
“我们所做的一切，”她说，“我们的角色只是加快现实世界中发生的事情，如果我们有更多的时间的话。
So let's say, in real life you know a guy and maybe after six months something starts to happen.
假设，在现实生活中你认识一个人，也许六个月后就会发生一些事情。
OK, so here we don't have six months, we have two more weeks.
好的，所以我们没有六个月的时间，我们还有两周的时间。
And that's if you stay to the finale.
如果你坚持到结局的话那就是这样。
We're not making you date him Astrid, we're just stirring the pot."
我们不会让你和阿斯特丽德约会，我们只是在搅局。”
"Well, I want you to stop," she says.
“好吧，我希望你停下来，”她说。
"OK," I say, "sure." Although Inez is looking at me strangely.
“好吧，”我说，“当然。”虽然伊内兹用奇怪的眼神看着我。
"Turn the camera back on Blake.
“把镜头重新转向布莱克。
Remember, present tense, full sentences.
记住，现在时，完整的句子。
So Astrid, tell us about this week's prompt."
阿斯特丽德，请告诉我们本周的提示。”
Inez and I take our only half hour off in five days to head out to the only coffee shop in Straithersburg.
伊内兹和我五天内仅有的半个小时休息时间，前往斯特雷瑟斯堡唯一的一家咖啡馆。
Inez says, "Why in the hell did you say we'd leave her alone?
伊内兹说：“你到底为什么说我们不会打扰她？
Tell me it's part of some master plan."
告诉我这是某个总体规划的一部分。”
I don't tell her that I'm suddenly and deeply sick of messing with people.
我没有告诉她我突然厌倦了与人交往。
I say, "We need her on our side.
我说：“我们需要她站在我们这边。
She's not NPD."
她不是新民主党。”
The casting directors are great at spotting borderline narcissistic personality disorder, the kind that makes you just crazy enough for great TV but not crazy enough to destroy a camera with a baseball bat.
选角导演很擅长发现边缘自恋型人格障碍，这种人格障碍会让你疯狂到足以看好电视，但又不会疯狂到用棒球棒毁掉相机。
The best casts are around 50% NPD but no more.
最好的演员阵容 NPD 约为 50%，但仅此而已。
Astrid was one of the contestants picked for her charisma and talent rather than her belief that she was destined to be famous.
阿斯特丽德是因为她的魅力和才华而被选中的参赛者之一，而不是因为她相信自己注定会出名。
I say, "I see her really shutting down in interview if she thinks were manipulating her."
我说：“如果她认为我们在操纵她，我认为她在采访中真的会表现得很沉默。”
"I'm just saying, Kenneth had very high hopes for the love challenge interviews."
“我只是说，肯尼斯对爱情挑战采访抱有很高的期望。”
"You can go to town on Leo then," I say.
“那你就可以进狮子座镇了，”我说。
"Tell him she's pregnant with his child."
“告诉他她怀了他的孩子。”
Inez laughs, pretends I'm not annoying her.
伊内兹笑了，假装我没有打扰她。
And we finish our lattes.
我们喝完了拿铁咖啡。
As we walk up the endless grass hill to the colony, our shoes in our hands, Inez says, "You don't seem happy.
当我们手里拿着鞋子，沿着一望无际的草山走向殖民地时，伊内兹说：“你看起来不高兴。
Can I ask something?" she says.
我可以问一件事吗？”她说。
"Why exactly are you with Beth?"
“你到底为什么和贝丝在一起？”
The whole time we walk I'm tearing at my thumbnail and trying to answer her question, as if I'm a contestant and must answer the question.
在我们走路的整个过程中，我都在撕扯我的缩略图并试图回答她的问题，就好像我是一名参赛者并且必须回答这个问题一样。
And must rephrase the question as part of the answer.
并且必须重新表述问题作为答案的一部分。
I am with Beth because I've been fighting against her leaving for so long it's the only thing I know how to do.
我和贝丝在一起是因为我长期以来一直反对她离开，这是我唯一知道该怎么做的事情。
It's like that's my character arc.
这就像我的性格弧线。
Like some producer has said, "We need you to be the quirky girl with the short hair who doesn't want her girlfriend to leave." And like the best contestants, the ones chosen for their compliance, I go along with it.
就像一些制片人说的那样，“我们需要你成为一个古怪的短发女孩，不想让她的女朋友离开。”就像最好的参赛者一样，那些因服从而被选中的人，我也同意了。
Because what other role do I have?
因为我还有什么其他角色呢？
Inez and I always listen in at the back of the judgment room so we don't have to get debriefed before the interviews.
伊内兹和我总是在审判室后面聆听，这样我们就不必在面谈前听取汇报。
Kenneth is a genius.
肯尼思是个天才。
He lines the five remaining artists up in front of the book shelves where they'll be judged and then tells them we won't tape for a few more minutes, when really the cameras are already rolling.
他把剩下的五位艺术家排在书架前，在那里他们将接受评判，然后告诉他们我们不会再录制几分钟，而实际上摄像机已经开始转动了。
He tells them to stand still for the light guys and then says, "We're having more digital issues.
他告诉他们为轻便的人站稳，然后说：“我们遇到了更多的数字问题。
We're going to be here pretty late tonight folks."
今晚我们会很晚才到这里，伙计们。”
And the sleep deprived artists, dehydrated and trying to hold still and awaiting judgment, give the most beautiful looks of disgust and despair.
而那些睡眠不足的艺术家，脱水了，试图保持静止，等待审判，表现出厌恶和绝望的最美丽的表情。
The cameras are getting it all.
摄像机捕捉到了一切。
The editors will splice it in with shots of their work being critiqued or a competitor winning.
编辑们会将其与他们的作品受到批评或竞争对手获胜的镜头拼接在一起。
They always fall for it.
他们总是上当。
Once Kenneth had one of the camera guys give all the contestants some incomprehensible direction in a thick accent while the other camera guys captured the grimaces of confusion.
有一次，肯尼思让一名摄影师用浓重的口音给所有参赛者一些难以理解的指示，而其他摄影师则捕捉到了困惑的鬼脸。
At the third judgment, he directed Inez to have a loud phone argument with a boyfriend in the corner of the room.
第三次判决时，他指示伊内兹在房间角落里与男友大声争吵。
That time we had enough snickering and eye rolling to manufacture an entire rivalry between Leo and Gordy.
那一次，我们有足够的窃笑和翻白眼，在里奥和戈迪之间制造了一场完整的竞争。
It became one of our best plotlines.
它成为我们最好的情节之一。
Even after all our work, by the end of the shoot Kenneth has decided to drop the love arc.
即使在我们完成所有工作之后，在拍摄结束时肯尼思还是决定放弃爱情弧线。
"We're way more into Leo's fallout with Gordy.
“我们更关注里奥与戈迪的争吵。
And I think we'll want to paint Astrid as kind of a loner so that everyone roots for Sabrina," he says.
我想我们会把阿斯特丽德描绘成一个孤独的人，这样每个人都会支持萨布丽娜，”他说。
"She's going to win."
“她会赢。”
They'll never use the beautiful footage of Leo blushing.
他们永远不会使用狮子座脸红的美丽镜头。
Just like they'll throw away 99% of everything that happens.
就像他们会扔掉99%发生的一切一样。
Those are the last four standing, beautiful Leo, Gordy the mediocre painter, Sabrina the shouter, and Astrid the blond.
他们是最后四个站着的人，美丽的利奥、平庸的画家戈迪、大喊大叫的萨布丽娜和金发女郎阿斯特丽德。
We have two more days left on the shoot.
我们还有两天的拍摄时间。
They'll be told that the final prompt is November.
他们会被告知最后的提示是十一月。
They'll go home to work on a portfolio of five pieces, preparing to come back before the judges and the almighty agent to present their work and make a case for their careers.
他们将回家创作由五件作品组成的作品集，准备在评委和全能经纪人面前展示他们的作品并为他们的职业生涯辩护。
They'll tell us all to love them, to care about their work, to see that they alone have embodied November.
他们会告诉我们所有人要爱他们，关心他们的工作，看到他们独自代表了十一月。
Of course, it won't actually be November.
当然，实际上不会是十一月。
It's only June now.
现在才六月。
They'll have 10 weeks off, and then we'll shoot finale the last week of September.
他们将有 10 周的休息时间，然后我们将在 9 月的最后一周拍摄大结局。
But it will air in late November, and that's all that counts.
但它将于 11 月下旬播出，这才是最重要的。
Not what time it is here, but what time it is on the other side of the TV screen.
不是这里现在几点，而是电视屏幕另一边现在几点。
By the end I never see Beth awake.
到最后我再也没有看到贝丝醒来。
I don't know if we're broken up, if we're reconciled, or if we're the same as we always were.
我不知道我们是否分手了，是否复合了，或者我们是否还像以前一样。
All I have is her unconscious body beside me in the dark when I get into bed and beside me, in the earliest gray light, when I roll out.
我所拥有的只有她无意识的身体，在黑暗中，当我上床睡觉时，在我身边；在最早的灰光中，当我翻身时，她在我身边。
On the last day of the shoot, I'm up in the house's attic searching among piles of abandoned furniture for a rug.
拍摄的最后一天，我在房子的阁楼上，在成堆的废弃家具中寻找地毯。
I look out the window, down to the grounds, and there, back near the words, with no one else around, Leo and Astrid are kissing, passionately but slowly, like they've done it before.
我望向窗外，低头看着场地，就在那里，就在文字附近，周围没有其他人，利奥和阿斯特丽德正在接吻，热情而缓慢，就像他们以前做过的那样。
His hands in her hair, her hands in his back pockets.
他的手插在她的头发里，她的手插在他后面的口袋里。
A giddy flood of adrenaline sends me halfway down the stairs on my way to tell Kenneth before I stop and think.
一股令人眼花缭乱的肾上腺素涌动，让我下了楼梯，在停下来思考之前告诉肯尼斯。
Kenneth would love me for it forever .
肯尼斯会因此永远爱我。
I could maybe get someone to lug a camera up the narrow stairs and shoot them before they walk away.
我也许可以让人拖着相机爬上狭窄的楼梯，在他们走开之前拍摄他们。
I wonder, for a long time afterwards, why I don't.
事后很长一段时间我都在想，为什么我不这样做。
Instead, I walk back up the stairs.
相反，我走回楼梯。
I lean against the window frame and watch them.
我靠在窗框上看着他们。
It's a movie, and I'm the only one in the world with a ticket.
这是一部电影，而我是世界上唯一有票的人。
We shoot the artist's packing and leaving.
我们拍摄了艺术家收拾行李离开的场景。
We shoot them looking out the backseat window of a moving car.
我们拍摄他们从行驶中的汽车后座窗外望去的情景。
And then, suddenly, we're done.
然后，突然之间，我们就完成了。
Instead of going home to Beth, I stay for the party.
我没有回家贝丝，而是留下来参加聚会。
The camera guys do actual keg stands on the lawn.
摄像师在草坪上搭建了真正的小桶架。
I won't miss this place at all.
我根本不会错过这个地方。
In September, Astrid, I think, will bring back delicate glass leaves and gray bubbles.
我想，九月，阿斯特丽德会带回精致的玻璃叶子和灰色的气泡。
Gordy will paint empty city streets.
戈迪将绘制空荡荡的城市街道。
Sabrina will dance like an empty tree.
萨布丽娜会像一棵空树一样跳舞。
Leo will play sad, beautiful, modern things on the piano that only I will know are for Astrid.
里奥会在钢琴上弹奏悲伤、美丽、现代的东西，只有我知道是为阿斯特丽德演奏的。
And I'm certain that I will be coming back here alone.
我确信我会独自回到这里。
Before the shoot starts, Inez and I and everyone lower on the totem pole, will run around making the place look like November, desolate and cold and fading.
在拍摄开始之前，伊内兹和我以及图腾柱下方的每个人都会四处奔跑，让这个地方看起来像十一月一样，荒凉、寒冷、褪色。
We'll stand on ladders to pull leaves off the trees.
我们会站在梯子上把树叶从树上拉下来。
I've done it before.
我以前做过。
We'll spray some of the remaining leaves yellow, some red.
我们将把剩下的一些叶子喷成黄色，一些喷成红色。
We'll make everyone wear a coat.
我们会让每个人都穿上外套。
We'll kill the grass with herbicide.
我们将用除草剂杀死草。
It's sick and it's soulless, but it's one of the things I love about my job.
这是病态的、没有灵魂的，但这是我热爱工作的原因之一。
Here, you can force the world to be something it's not.
在这里，你可以迫使世界变成它不是的样子。
We'll take the four contestants, one by one, into the foyer.
我们将把四位参赛者一一带进门厅。
And put them on that ridiculous chair and ask them, "Why do you deserve to win?
把他们放在那把可笑的椅子上并问他们：“为什么你们应该获胜？
How passionate do you feel?
你感觉有多热情？
What do you love about your work?
你喜欢你的工作的什么？
How much do you love your work?
你有多热爱你的工作？
What is the sucker punch love that ruins us so completely?
到底是什么爱让我们如此彻底地毁了？
And can you say it in a full sentence."
你能用一个完整的句子说出来吗？”
Rebecca Makkai is the author of the novel, The Borrower , which was just published in June.
丽贝卡·麦凯是小说《借款人》的作者，该小说于六月刚刚出版。
[MUSIC - "HE SAY, SHE SAY" BY SHOW & A.G.]
[音乐 - “HE SAY, SHE SAY” BY SHOW & A.G.]
Our program was produced today by Ben Calhoun and me with Alex Blumberg, Jane Feltes, Jonathan Menjivar, Lisa Pollak, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
今天我们的节目由本·卡尔霍恩和我与亚历克斯·布隆伯格、简·菲尔特斯、乔纳森·门吉瓦尔、丽莎·波拉克、罗宾·塞米恩、艾丽莎·希普和南希·厄普代克共同制作。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Production help from Miki Meek.
Miki Meek 提供制作帮助。
Seth Lind is our production manager.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的生产经理。
Emily Condon's our office manager.
艾米丽·康登是我们的办公室经理。
Music help from Damien Graef.
达米安·格雷夫 (Damien Graef) 的音乐帮助。
Adrianne Mathiowetz runs our website.
阿德琳娜·马修韦茨 (Adrianne Mathiowetz) 负责运营我们的网站。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
[致谢] 我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
WBEZ management oversight from our boss Mr. Torey Malatia.
WBEZ 的管理由我们的老板 Torey Malatia 先生监督。
Who, when I told him Ira was away, finally saw his chance to get us to stop talking about him on the show.
当我告诉他艾拉不在时，他终于看到了让我们停止在节目中谈论他的机会。
It's just that like I don't really like people knowing my business.
只是我不太喜欢别人了解我的事。
I'm Sarah Koenig.
我是莎拉·柯尼格。
Ira Glass will be back next week with more stories of This American Life .
艾拉·格拉斯将于下周回归，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。