442: Thugs - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #442 | July 29, 2011 442: Thugs Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 442 集 | 2011 年 7 月 29 日 442：暴徒 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass The town of Florencia de Benito Juarez was a typical little mountain town in Mexico, just 4,000 people.
序言 艾拉·格拉斯 弗洛伦西亚·德·贝尼托·华雷斯镇是墨西哥一个典型的山城小镇，只有 4000 人。
Quiet, until last Fall.
安静，直到去年秋天。
Then a drug gang called the Zetas, affiliated with one of the big drug cartels, rolled into town.
然后，隶属于一个大型贩毒集团的一个名为“泽塔”的贩毒团伙涌入城镇。
And people were pretty scared.
人们非常害怕。
The Zetas would stop people in the road and take their trucks.
齐塔人会在路上拦住人们并带走他们的卡车。
They walked the streets freely.
他们自由自在地走在街上。
The police were defenseless, or maybe they were just on the take, in the pockets of the gang.
警察毫无防备，或者也许他们只是被该团伙的口袋所占。
I talked to a reporter who lives in the region, who asked as a precaution not to be named on the radio.
我与一位居住在该地区的记者交谈，为了预防起见，他要求不要在广播中透露姓名。
The drug gangs are that powerful in the area.
这个地区的贩毒团伙势力非常强大。
He's been talking to people in Florencia about this since the beginning, and he told me what happened.
从一开始他就一直在和弗洛伦西亚的人们谈论这件事，他告诉了我发生了什么事。
He said that in May, after months where people were terrified of these thugs, who'd more or less taken over, the Zetas went away for a few days.
他说，在五月份，人们对这些暴徒感到恐惧，而这些暴徒或多或少已经占据了统治地位，之后几个月，齐塔人离开了几天。
The reporter said this wasn't strange behavior for a Mexican drug gang.
记者表示，对于墨西哥贩毒团伙来说，这并不奇怪。
Everybody knew that they'd be back soon enough.
每个人都知道他们很快就会回来。
But while the Zetas were away, something really strange did happen.
但当齐塔人离开时，确实发生了一些奇怪的事情。
Another gang showed up, the Chapos, named, or nicknamed presumably, for Chapo Guzman, who runs one of the other big Mexican drug cartels.
另一个团伙出现了，“矮子”，可能是墨西哥另一个大型贩毒集团之一的矮子古兹曼的名字或绰号。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator For a while they thought they were from the same group.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 有一段时间他们以为自己来自同一个群体。
But the next day, the group of people went to go visit each of the different business establishments.
但第二天，一行人就去各个不同的营业场所参观了。
They told them that they were from the Gulf Cartel, and that they were coming to liberate the town, so that they can live with peace and tranquility.
他们告诉他们，他们来自海湾卡特尔，他们来这里是为了解放小镇，让他们能够过上和平与安宁的生活。
In fact, the leader this new group, the Chapos, told store owners that if any gang member did something as petty as taking food from a store without paying, please come let him know.
事实上，这个新组织的领导者“矮子”告诉商店老板，如果任何帮派成员做了像不付钱从商店拿食物这样的小事，请告诉他。
It would not be tolerated.
这是不能容忍的。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Ira Glass "They were here to take out the garbage, meaning the Zetas," a woman from Florencia told this reporter.
[西班牙语] Ira Glass “他们是来倒垃圾的，指的是齐塔人，”一位来自弗洛伦西亚的女士告诉本报记者。
"They said they were good people.
“他们说他们是好人。
They weren't going to cause anybody in town any harm."
他们不会对镇上的任何人造成任何伤害。”
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Ira Glass For the people of Florencia, they were protectors.
[西班牙语] Ira Glass 对于弗洛伦西亚人民来说，他们是保护者。
The police fled town, as did the Mayor.
警察和市长都逃离了城镇。
And things were peaceful, with the Chapos in charge, for just a few days.
在矮子们的掌管下，事情平静了短短几天。
And then, the Zetas returned.
然后，齐塔人回来了。
This was May 20 of this year, a Friday morning.
这是今年5月20日，一个星期五的早晨。
Everybody expected and feared a big battle between the two.
每个人都期待并担心两者之间的一场大战。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator What occurred then was that the Chapos warned the population that this was going to occur.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 然后发生的事情是，矮子警告人们这将会发生。
And so the people stayed indoors, in their houses.
所以人们呆在室内，呆在自己的房子里。
The fight started in town, and then continued in the mountains for a full day.
战斗从城里开始，然后在山里持续了一整天。
And when it was over, authorities said that about a dozen were dead.
事件结束后，当局称约有十几人死亡。
The people in Florencia said it was a lot more, many dozens.
弗洛伦西亚人说还有很多，有几十个。
The Chapos, the supposed protectors of Florencia, won the day.
被认为是佛罗伦萨保护者的矮子赢得了胜利。
And as with anything heroic or sensational that happens in Mexico these days, of course, there are now corridos, folk ballads, about the battle.
当然，就像当今墨西哥发生的任何英雄或耸人听闻的事情一样，现在也出现了有关这场战斗的corridos、民间歌谣。
[SINGING] "Only 10 fallen men, reported the government, but I'm not stupid.
[唱歌]“政府报告说，只有 10 人倒下，但我并不傻。
I know what I'm saying.
我知道我在说什么。
More than 60 idiots were left on the ground."
地上只剩下了六十多个白痴。”
After that fight, people in town felt pretty safe.
那场战斗之后，镇上的人们都感到很安全。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Ira Glass "The truth is, people feel protected," this woman's saying.
[西班牙语] Ira Glass “事实是，人们感到受到保护，”这位女士说道。
"When the gang isn't around, that's when people are fearful." This reporter has seen a lot of what drug gangs do in small towns in Mexico, and he says he has never heard of this, a gang coming to town and people feeling safer.
“当帮派不在身边时，人们就会感到恐惧。”记者在墨西哥的小镇上见过很多贩毒团伙的所作所为，他说从来没有听说过这样的事情，一个团伙进城了，人们感觉更安全了。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator It's surprising.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 这很令人惊讶。
Why is this one gang being so nice to this town?
为什么这一帮人对这个小镇这么好？
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator In truth, I don't really know what is occurring.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 事实上，我真的不知道发生了什么。
I really don't know why.
我真的不知道为什么。
I know that they're fighting over territories.
我知道他们正在争夺领土。
It's interesting to think that they would decide it would help them hold territory if they were simply nicer.
有趣的是，他们会认为，如果他们表现得更好一点，这将有助于他们保住领地。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator It's a good strategy, no?
[说西班牙语] 翻译这是一个很好的策略，不是吗？
The strategy seems to be winning people over.
这一策略似乎正在赢得人们的支持。
On Father's Day, just a few weeks after the shoot-out, the Chapos hung a banner in town that read, "Happy Father's Day.
父亲节那天，枪战发生几周后，矮子们在镇上挂起了横幅，上面写着：“父亲节快乐。
We know that the family is the most important thing.
我们知道，家庭是最重要的。
CDG." CDG stands for Cartel de Gulfo, the Gulf Cartel.
戴高乐集团。” CDG 代表 Cartel de Gulfo，即海湾卡特尔。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Ira Glass "I wasn't there, but my family told me about it," she's saying.
[说西班牙语] Ira Glass “我当时不在场，但我的家人告诉了我这件事，”她说。
"They told me that somebody went from street to street, handing out bottles of tequila to all the fathers, and wishing Happy Father's Day from the cartel, the Gulf Cartel."
“他们告诉我，有人从一条街走到另一条街，向所有的父亲分发龙舌兰酒，并祝愿海湾卡特尔的父亲节快乐。”
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Ira Glass The reporter says to her, "So they're the promoters of the family?" And she says, "Yes." And then he jokes, "At this rate, they'll be dating the local girls soon." "That's already happening," she says.
[西班牙语] Ira Glass 记者对她说：“所以他们是这个家庭的推动者？”她说：“是的。”然后他开玩笑说：“照这样下去，他们很快就会和当地女孩约会了。” “这已经发生了，”她说。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Ira Glass "These aren't older guys," she says.
[说西班牙语] Ira Glass “这些人都不是老家伙，”她说。
"They're boys, at the most 20, 22 years old.
“他们都是男孩，最大20、22岁。
Young guys at the age where a woman wants to fall in love.
年轻人正值女人想要谈恋爱的年纪。
The girls, they see a cute guy in a truck, and their eyes meet."
女孩们看到卡车里有一个可爱的小伙子，她们的目光相遇了。”
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Ira Glass It's not all kittens and flowers, though.
[说西班牙语] Ira Glass 不过，这并不全是小猫和鲜花。
The Chapos have checkpoints at two entrances to the town, and keep a close eye on who can enter and exit.
矮子们在城镇的两个入口处设有检查站，密切关注谁可以进出。
They issue orders.
他们发布命令。
Like at the end of the school year, when people usually throw big parties, they told them not to, and everybody obeyed.
就像在学年结束时，当人们通常举办大型聚会时，他们告诉他们不要这样做，每个人都服从了。
And just when the people of Florencia were feeling like things were fine, they were safe, this week, the mayor of the town, who apparently started cooperating with the Chapos, and the treasurer of the local ranchers association, both turned up dead, their bodies blindfolded and bound hand and foot, with a note, presumably from the Zetas, saying this will happen to everyone who supports and gives information to the Chapos.
就在弗洛伦西亚人民感觉一切都很好、他们很安全的时候，本周，显然开始与矮子们合作的镇长和当地牧场主协会的财务主管，两人都被发现死亡，他们的尸体被蒙住眼睛，手脚被绑着，还附有一张纸条，大概是齐塔人写的，说这种情况会发生在所有支持矮子并向矮子提供信息的人身上。
But this reporter says that despite all that, as best as he can tell, people in town don't want the police and the traditional authorities to come back and run the place.
但记者表示，尽管如此，据他所知，镇上的人们并不希望警察和传统当局回来管理这个地方。
They prefer the Chapos.
他们更喜欢矮子。
The gangs are stronger than the authorities.
帮派比当局更强大。
They're better armed, better organized.
他们武装得更好，组织得更好。
And unlike the Mexican army, who sometimes breeze into town in a show of force for a couple days, the Chapos care enough to stick around.
与墨西哥军队有时会轻而易举地进城展示武力几天不同，矮子们很关心，会留下来。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator There's so many towns, so many places.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 有这么多的城镇，这么多的地方。
So then a town that's not on an important highway, that's in the mountains, kind of lost, there.
那么，这个小镇不在重要的高速公路上，而是在山里，有点迷失。
Unfortunately, that's of little importance to many people.
不幸的是，这对许多人来说并不重要。
So for peace, and peace of mind, Florencia has the cartel.
因此，为了和平，为了内心的平静，弗洛伦西亚有卡特尔。
Thugs keeping order.
暴徒维持秩序。
And they keep out the Zetas better than the authorities ever did.
他们比当局更好地阻止了齐塔人。
It's a very romantic idea, that thugs aren't just killers, that they can be protectors, good guys.
这是一个非常浪漫的想法，暴徒不仅仅是杀手，他们还可以成为保护者，好人。
Lots of great movie characters are based on this very idea.
许多伟大的电影角色都是基于这个想法。
Today on our show we have stories of people who look like thugs.
今天在我们的节目中，我们有一些看起来像暴徒的故事。
They're accused of being thugs.
他们被指控为暴徒。
Some of them act like thugs.
他们中的一些人表现得像暴徒。
But are they thugs?
但他们是暴徒吗？
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.
这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Our show in two acts today.
我们今天的演出分两幕。
The first takes place in a city that, you could argue, for decades has been plagued by thugs.
第一个故事发生在一个几十年来一直饱受暴徒困扰的城市。
The second is about a woman who's stuck asking this very question I'm raising right here, is this guy a thug or not, about somebody who she's close to.
第二个是关于一个女人，她一直在问我在这里提出的这个问题，这个男人是不是暴徒，关于她亲近的人。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Thug is an imprecise word, used to describe so many kinds of people.
暴徒是一个不精确的词，用来形容各种各样的人。
And it's subjective.
这是主观的。
One man's thug is another man's friendly neighborhood drug cartel.
一个人的暴徒是另一个人的友好邻居贩毒集团。
And the imprecision of the subjectivity of the word has been very apparent recently, during a massive world-changing drama, the revolution in Egypt that ousted president Hosni Mubarak, and during the months since then.
最近，在一场改变世界的巨大戏剧性事件中，即推翻总统胡斯尼·穆巴拉克的埃及革命以及此后的几个月里，这个词的主观性的不精确性变得非常明显。
Nancy Updike explains.
南希·厄普代克解释道。
The word thug has exploded in Egypt since the revolution.
自革命以来，“暴徒”这个词在埃及迅速流行起来。
Street violence and crime are up.
街头暴力和犯罪有所增加。
Muggings and break-ins and car theft.
抢劫、入室盗窃和汽车盗窃。
Who's to blame?
谁该受责备？
Thugs.
暴徒。
Churches have been attacked and burned, and deadly battles followed.
教堂遭到袭击和烧毁，随后发生了致命的战斗。
Not just Christians versus Salafi Muslims.
不仅仅是基督徒与萨拉菲派穆斯林的对抗。
Also thugs, according to witnesses.
据目击者称，还有暴徒。
Convicts have escaped in several jail and prison breaks, freeing up thugs.
罪犯在多次入狱和越狱中越狱，释放了暴徒。
Rumors are constantly circulating that elements of the former regime are paying thugs to create mayhem and unravel the revolution.
有谣言不断流传，称前政权的分子正在付钱给暴徒，以制造混乱并瓦解革命。
Thugs-- the word in Arabic is bultigiya-- can be anywhere.
暴徒——阿拉伯语中的“bultigiya”——可以出现在任何地方。
They are capable of anything, and everyone is against thugs.
他们无所不能，所有人都反对暴徒。
Which means that just about any person, if they're unlucky enough, can now be called a thug, and wind up in prison for it.
这意味着几乎任何人，如果足够不幸，现在都可以被称为暴徒，并因此入狱。
I'll get to that in a minute.
我稍后会讲到这一点。
Because the word thug has a particular history in Egypt.
因为暴徒这个词在埃及有着特殊的历史。
For almost 30 years, during the dictatorship, "thugs" meant street criminals, yes, but it also meant men hired by the regime to intimidate and beat up citizens, alongside the police, or on their own.
近30年来，在独裁统治期间，“暴徒”指的是街头罪犯，是的，但它也指受政权雇佣、与警察一起或单独恐吓和殴打公民的人。
Some of them were trained employees of the state security forces.
其中一些人是国家安全部队训练有素的雇员。
Others were freelance thugs, drawn from a pool of criminals, informants, men who needed money.
其他人则是自由职业的暴徒，他们是从罪犯、线人、急需钱财的人中挑选出来的。
Both groups, the trained men and the freelancers, wore ordinary clothes, no uniform.
受过训练的人和自由职业者这两个群体都穿着普通衣服，没有制服。
And they would show up at rallies, and protests, in voting stations, any place where citizens might need to be reminded that they could be beaten anytime.
他们会出现在集会、抗议、投票站以及任何可能需要提醒公民他们随时可能遭到殴打的地方。
During the revolution, the regime sent thugs into Tahrir Square, on foot and on horseback, and on camel back.
革命期间，政权派暴徒进入解放广场，有的步行、有的骑马、有的骑骆驼。
It was one of the craziest images of the entire uprising, these men galloping through the crowd and hitting people with sticks and whips as they rode.
这是整个起义中最疯狂的画面之一，这些人在人群中疾驰，边骑边用棍棒和鞭子殴打人们。
But that was the old Egypt.
但那是古埃及。
The new Egypt is being run by the government force that famously, crucially, did not attack the protesters on Tahrir Square, refused to shoot civilians, the military.
新埃及由政府军队管理，政府军队没有攻击解放广场上的抗议者，也拒绝向平民和军队开枪。
The army is one of the few national institutions that many Egyptians trust.
军队是许多埃及人信任的少数国家机构之一。
It's a conscript army.
这是一支义务兵。
So lots of Egyptians have either served themselves or know a family member who's serving.
因此，许多埃及人要么为自己服务，要么认识在服务的家庭成员。
A popular chant during the uprising was, "The army and the people are one," or "The army and the people or one hand." This is in contrast to the police, who killed over 800 people and injured thousands.
起义期间流行的口号是“军民一体”或“军民还是一只手”。这与警察形成鲜明对比，警察杀死了 800 多人，伤害了数千人。
They were the villains of the revolution.
他们是革命的恶棍。
The army, for many Egyptians, was the revolution's protectors.
对于许多埃及人来说，军队是革命的保护者。
One of the people who was on Tahrir Square during the revolution was the protagonist of this story, Ali Sobhi, a 28-year old actor I met in Cairo.
革命期间解放广场上的人之一就是这个故事的主角阿里·索比（Ali Sobhi），他是我在开罗认识的一位 28 岁演员。
Not a famous actor, just a working actor.
不是著名演员，只是一个在职演员。
While I was waiting to interview him, I watched him rehearse with a friend for a kid's performance, juggling these buckets back and forth in a small room in one of Cairo's grand old buildings.
当我等待采访他时，我看到他和一位朋友一起排练儿童表演，在开罗一栋宏伟的老建筑的一个小房间里来回摆弄这些水桶。
During the revolution, Ali was on Tahrir Square every day, except for two days, he said, when he went to check on his parents, because their neighborhood was being attacked by thugs.
阿里说，革命期间，除了两天去看望父母外，他每天都在解放广场，因为他们的社区遭到了暴徒的袭击。
After the regime fell, Ali was one of the thousands of Egyptians walking the streets of Cairo giddy with freedom.
政权垮台后，阿里是成千上万走在开罗街道上的埃及人之一，他的自由令人眼花缭乱。
One chant that took off during this period was, "Hold your head high, you're Egyptian." People would break into it spontaneously on the street, just this shout of pure joy and pride in the new Egypt.
在此期间流行的一句口号是：“昂起头，你是埃及人。”人们会在街上自发地闯入它，这只是对新埃及纯粹的喜悦和自豪的呼喊。
Ali says it was incredible how quickly people got used to not living in a police state, not being afraid.
阿里说，令人难以置信的是，人们很快就习惯了不生活在警察国家，不再害怕。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator Yes, I felt I had nothing to worry about.
[说阿拉伯语] 翻译 是的，我觉得我没有什么可担心的。
Even this whole idea of curfew.
甚至整个宵禁的想法。
All over Egypt, no one felt that there was a curfew.
整个埃及，没有人感觉到有宵禁。
The cafes were open.
咖啡馆开门了。
People were on the street.
人们都在街上。
There are two chants that came out, like "What curfew?
有两句口号传出，比如“什么宵禁？
The Egyptians are here." "What is this curfew that you're speaking about," and actually both rhyme in Arabic.
埃及人在这里。” “你所说的宵禁是什么”，实际上两者在阿拉伯语中都是押韵的。
The entire country was alive.
整个国家都充满了生机。
Even in the midst of this euphoria after the dictatorship ended, Tahrir Square didn't fully empty out.
即使在独裁统治结束后的欢欣鼓舞中，解放广场也没有完全空无一人。
Some people, including friends of Ali's, stayed, living in tents, cooking on butane stoves.
有些人，包括阿里的朋友，留下来，住在帐篷里，用丁烷炉做饭。
Because to them, the revolution wasn't finished.
因为对他们来说，革命还没有结束。
The new Egypt was still being constructed.
新埃及仍在建设中。
The country's hated emergency laws were still in effect.
该国令人讨厌的紧急状态法仍然有效。
And they were going to keep up the pressure for reform.
他们将继续施加改革压力。
Almost a month, to the day, after the old regime fell, on March 9, Ali was walking by Tahrir Square on his way to somewhere else, and he saw a wild scene.
快一个月了，到旧政权垮台后的3月9日，阿里在去别的地方的路上路过解放广场时，看到了一片狂野的景象。
The army was there, and they were arresting people.
军队在那里，他们正在抓人。
And along with the army, there were also men in ordinary clothes with sticks, beating protesters.
除了军队之外，还有穿着便衣的男子拿着棍棒殴打抗议者。
In the old Egypt, it would have been immediately clear what was going on.
在古埃及，发生的事情很快就会一目了然。
The men with sticks were thugs, working with the authorities.
那些拿着棍棒的人是暴徒，他们与当局合作。
But Ali wasn't used to seeing thugs with the army.
但阿里不习惯看到军队里有暴徒。
The army that had sided with the people, and refused to attack them during the revolution.
军队站在人民一边，在革命期间拒绝攻击他们。
He was used to seeing thugs with the police.
他已经习惯了看到暴徒和警察在一起。
This was new and disturbing.
这是新的且令人不安的。
Ali is slight, maybe 5'7, 120 pounds.
阿里身材瘦小，大概身高 5 英尺 7 英寸，体重 120 磅。
And he had long hair then, so he figured he would be spotted and arrested if he stayed.
那时他留着长发，所以他认为如果他留下来，就会被发现并被捕。
But he wanted to help his friends, so he pulled out his cell phone to let others know what was happening.
但他想帮助他的朋友，所以他拿出手机让其他人知道发生了什么事。
He decided he was fine with being afraid and sticking around anyway.
他觉得自己可以接受害怕，但无论如何还是要留下来。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator The feeling was, I got rid of a president that had been in power for 30 years in 18 days, a prime minister that he appointed for us in seven days, or actually in five days.
[说阿拉伯语]翻译 感觉是，我在 18 天内摆脱了一位执政 30 年的总统，在 7 天内摆脱了他为我们任命的总理，或者实际上是在 5 天内。
We could certainly overcome those thugs.
我们一定能战胜那些暴徒。
Ali wrote about what happened to him next in a 4,000 word Facebook post, a detailed inside account that stunned a lot of Egyptians when they read it.
阿里在 Facebook 上发表了一篇 4000 字的帖子，讲述了他接下来发生的事情，这是一份详细的内部报道，许多埃及人读完后感到震惊。
Ali's Facebook post is full of amazement at everything he saw the army do during the four days they held him.
阿里的脸书帖子对他所看到的军队在关押他的四天里所做的一切充满了惊讶。
He's not afraid to be funny about something that is absolutely terrible.
他并不害怕对绝对可怕的事情感到有趣。
But mostly, he's just a careful observer.
但大多数情况下，他只是一个细心的观察者。
He gave us permission to have an actor read an English translation of what he wrote.
他允许我们让一位演员朗读他所写内容的英文译本。
In this excerpt, Ali's just been arrested by the army, along with almost 200 other people, and taken into the grounds of the Egyptian Museum, which the army had taken over and was using as an outpost in the area.
在这段摘录中，阿里刚刚与其他近 200 人一起被军队逮捕，并被带入埃及博物馆，该博物馆已被军队接管并用作该地区的前哨基地。
First thing was a nice head-butt from a short soldier kid who couldn't reach my head.
第一件事是一个矮小的士兵用头撞了我的头，他够不着我的头。
And I was telling him, "What's up, my cousin?
我告诉他：“怎么了，我的表弟？
Relax.
放松。
What did I do?" By the way, I call all soldiers my cousin.
我做了什么？”顺便说一句，我称所有士兵为我的表弟。
So my cousin says, "You screwed up the country, you dirty sons of bitches." Another soldier was hitting me on the back of the neck, and I could see in the background an uneven battle between people hitting, and people getting hit.
所以我表弟说：“你们把国家搞砸了，你们这些肮脏的王八蛋。”另一个士兵正在打我的后颈，我可以在背景中看到人们在打人与被人打中之间的不平衡战斗。
Suddenly an officer, who looked like he'd had special forces training, super tough, was flying with his legs in the air like Bruce Lee right towards me.
突然，一名军官，看上去像是接受过特种部队训练，非常强悍，像李小龙一样双腿腾空飞向我。
The soldier kids were holding me by the arms and pushing me forward for him, and he slammed me in the chest with those army issued boots.
士兵们抓住我的手臂，将我推向他，他用那双军装靴子猛击我的胸部。
You know, the army that's with the people?
你知道，与人民同在的军队吗？
The army that people used to see and chant "The people and the army are one"?
人们曾经看到的、高呼“民军一体”的军队？
I took the blow square in the chest, in precisely in the spot where I had my lung surgery two years ago.
我的胸部受到了直接的打击，就在两年前我接受肺部手术的地方。
I fell on the ground, and they dragged me by the hair.
我倒在地上，他们揪着我的头发拖着我。
And they stood me up and tied me by the hair from a horizontal pole.
他们让我站起来，用一根横杆把我的头发绑起来。
And they kept hitting me in the knees and shins, and I would fall towards the ground and my hair would pull me back up.
他们不断地打我的膝盖和小腿，我会摔倒在地，我的头发会把我拉起来。
Then one soldier was holding a razor and hacking away at my hair.
然后一名士兵拿着一把剃刀，刮着我的头发。
And an officer was doing his Kung Fu moves on me.
一名军官正在对我表演功夫动作。
And another soldier's hitting me with a wooden staff across my back, and another soldier's electrocuting me.
另一个士兵用木棍打我的背，另一个士兵电击我。
My cousin says, "Lie down, you son of a bitch." He tied my hands behind my back and blindfolded me with this silly thing I could see everything through.
我表弟说：“躺下，你这个王八蛋。”他把我的双手绑在背后，用这个我能看清一切的愚蠢东西蒙住我的眼睛。
And then he dragged me into a place he made me feel certain I would die in.
然后他把我拖到一个让我确信自己会死的地方。
There were a lot of us there.
那里有我们很多人。
We looked like piles of meat thrown on the ground.
我们看起来就像一堆扔在地上的肉。
And soldiers were on top of us, raining down all kinds of beatings, electrocution, sticks, wooden staffs, electric cables, their boots.
士兵们压在我们身上，各种殴打、电刑、棍棒、木棍、电缆、靴子如雨点般落下。
And after a bit, they got this great idea, because we were refusing to die.
过了一会儿，他们想到了这个好主意，因为我们拒绝死亡。
So they thought instead they would kill the thing inside us, that if it were to die, we would die.
所以他们认为他们会杀死我们体内的东西，如果它死了，我们就会死。
All the soldiers together, military style, "Raise your head high, boy, you're Egyptian." Us, the people on the ground, all of us, "Wow, they laid off and finally got it.
所有士兵齐聚一堂，军人风范，“抬起头来，孩子，你是埃及人。”我们，当地的人们，我们所有人，“哇，他们裁员了，终于得到了。
Thank you, God."
谢谢你，上帝。”
And as we raised our heads up, because we're Egyptian, they kicked us in the head with their boots.
当我们抬起头时，因为我们是埃及人，他们用靴子踢我们的头。
Shock of a lifetime.
一生的震撼。
This happened to everyone, which proved to me that it happened in a collective way, and that I'd really heard right when they all said together, "Raise your head high, boy, you're Egyptian," and then bang in your face.
这种事发生在每个人身上，这向我证明这是集体发生的，当他们一起说“抬起头来，孩子，你是埃及人”，然后敲打你的脸时，我真的听到了。
Long live Egypt.
埃及万岁。
This was just the first of many beatings, and threats of worse beatings.
这只是许多殴打中的第一起，而且还威胁要进行更严重的殴打。
Ali had been hassled, and arrested, and beaten up, by the police since he was a teenager.
阿里从十几岁起就受到警察的骚扰、逮捕和殴打。
And he figured he would probably be roughed up this time, too.
他估计这一次他可能也会受到粗暴对待。
But he hadn't counted on systematic, sustained, brutality.
但他并没有指望会出现系统性的、持续的、残酷的行为。
Not from the army.
不是来自军队。
Then he started to figure out that the beatings were just a preamble to being framed as a thug.
然后他开始明白，这些殴打只是被诬陷为暴徒的前奏。
The whole experience went from terrifying to bizarre.
整个经历从可怕变得奇怪。
As an actor, Ali's been in movies.
作为一名演员，阿里参演过电影。
He's worked on location.
他曾在外景地工作过。
And he knew what was happening, as he watched the soldiers setting the scene for the frame up.
当他看到士兵们为这场陷害布置场景时，他知道发生了什么。
They started taking closeup shots of our faces, one by one.
他们开始一张一张地对我们的脸部进行特写拍摄。
Three hand-held cameras, and one B2 camera, and a senior officer behind the B2 camera telling the soldiers with the other cameras what to do, like a movie director talking to a cinematographer.
三台手持摄像机，一台 B2 摄像机，B2 摄像机后面的一名高级军官告诉拿着其他摄像机的士兵该做什么，就像电影导演与电影摄影师交谈一样。
So they filmed us, and documented the state we were in.
所以他们拍摄了我们，记录了我们所处的状态。
And we stood in rows, like in the army, and one by one we were searched, and then got on the bus.
我们像军队一样站成一排，一一接受搜查，然后上了车。
The bus drove us to the next scene in the movie, which was the military prosecution where the set was prepared, so that our arrests could be broadcast on television.
巴士载着我们前往电影的下一个场景，即军事检察院，那里已经准备好布景，以便电视上播放我们的逮捕过程。
An interior decoration officer was fixing up the set with two soldier assistants under him.
一名室内装修军官正在修理布景，他的手下还有两名士兵助理。
There was a director of photography officer, with three or four light crew guys, and one cameraman, all soldiers.
有一名摄影指导官，还有三四个灯光组人员，还有一名摄影师，全都是士兵。
Anyway, they brought out the kids who looked dodgy, which included me because my front teeth are gone and my hair was a mess, and put us in the front.
不管怎样，他们把那些看起来很狡猾的孩子带了出来，其中包括我，因为我的门牙掉了，头发乱糟糟的，然后把我们放在前面。
There was a soldier fixing the lighting.
有一名士兵正在修理灯光。
"The lighting is ready, sir." The director.
“先生，灯光已经准备好了。”导演。
"Get me their seized weapons." So the soldiers got knives and molotov cocktails, and what they said were bombs, which were the butane stoves we used to make tea, and laid them out on the table.
“把他们缴获的武器给我拿来。”于是士兵们就拿来刀子和燃烧弹，还有他们说的炸弹，就是我们用来泡茶的丁烷炉子，放在桌子上。
And the interior decorator started adding his personal touch to the display, this next to that, this butane stove next to that knife.
室内装饰师开始在展示中添加他的个人风格，这个紧挨着那个，这个丁烷炉紧挨着那把刀。
And this, I have to be fair, was indeed the fine touch of a master film industry decorator.
公平地说，这确实是电影工业装饰大师的精湛技艺。
Anyway.
反正。
"All ready, sir." And the director of photography gave his order to the cameraman.
“一切准备就绪，先生。”摄影指导向摄影师下达了命令。
And the man took his word, and started to take closeups, and medium shots, and wide angles, and everything any director's heart would desire.
这个人信守诺言，开始拍摄特写镜头、中景镜头、广角镜头，以及任何导演想要的一切。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Nancy Updike This is the news report where Ali appeared.
[阿拉伯语] Nancy Updike 这是阿里出现的新闻报道。
The entire broadcast is on YouTube.
整个广播都在 YouTube 上进行。
You'll hear the announcer say bultigiya, thugs, right here.
你会听到播音员说“bultigiya，暴徒，就在这里”。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Nancy Updike And the scene is exactly as Ali described it.
[阿拉伯语] 南希·厄普代克 场景与阿里描述的一模一样。
There are several rows of men, kneeling, with their hands behind their backs, in front of a long, low table with a table cloth, where weapons have been laid out, like a banquet.
一张铺着桌布的矮长桌前，有几排男人背着手跪着，桌子上已经摆好了武器，就像一场宴会。
The camera shifts from panning shots, to wide angles, to closeups.
镜头从平移镜头切换到广角镜头，再到特写镜头。
And a spotlight is playing over the group.
聚光灯正照射在这群人身上。
It's night time, so the spotlight is especially harsh.
由于是晚上，聚光灯特别刺眼。
And about one minute in, the spotlight lands on Ali's face, right there in the front row.
大约一分钟后，聚光灯落在阿里的脸上，就在前排。
He thought they did a pretty good job of making him look like a thug.
他认为他们很好地让他看起来像个暴徒。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator I had broken teeth, and my hair was all over the place, and I had mud on my face.
[说阿拉伯语] 翻译 我的牙齿断了，头发散落一地，脸上沾满了泥土。
And the people next to me also.
还有我旁边的人。
Their hair was cut with razors, and they were beaten in the face, so they had bloody face.
他们的头发被剃刀剪掉，脸部被打，满脸是血。
In our culture, a thug has a scarred face.
在我们的文化中，暴徒的脸上都是伤痕累累的。
So yes we all looked like thugs, and when I saw the recording of the video that they had broadcast, yes, of course I looked like a thug.
所以是的，我们看起来都像暴徒，当我看到他们播放的视频录音时，是的，我当然看起来像暴徒。
I did look like a thug.
我看起来确实像个暴徒。
The governing body that the military set up to run Egypt after the revolution is called the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces, SCAF, some Egyptians call it.
革命后，军方为管理埃及而设立的管理机构被称为武装部队最高委员会（SCAF），一些埃及人这样称呼它。
One of the first things SCAF did was set up a Facebook page.
SCAF 做的第一件事就是建立了一个 Facebook 页面。
This is a way they communicate with the country.
这是他们与国家沟通的一种方式。
And in one Facebook posting after another, SCAF has promised to protect the country from thugs and thuggery.
在 Facebook 的一则又一帖子中，SCAF 承诺保护国家免受暴徒和暴徒的侵害。
They even added a new crime, called thuggery, to the penal code.
他们甚至在刑法中增加了一种新的犯罪行为，称为暴行。
And they made demonstrations illegal, if the demonstrations, quote, "harm national unity, societal peace, or public order." That's on top of the country's emergency laws.
如果示威活动“损害国家团结、社会和平或公共秩序”，他们就将示威活动定为非法。这是该国紧急状态法之上的。
So, thugs are public enemy number one in these SCAF postings.
因此，暴徒是这些 SCAF 帖子中的头号公敌。
And the opposite of thuggery and thugs?
暴徒和暴徒的反面是什么？
The noble youth of the revolution.
革命的高贵青年。
That's a phrase that comes up a lot.
这是一个经常出现的短语。
It means people who helped topple the former regime.
它指的是帮助推翻前政权的人。
People like Ali.
像阿里这样的人。
The military council, SCAF, wants stability.
军事委员会 SCAF 希望稳定。
Egyptians want stability.
埃及人想要稳定。
They are tired of crime and uncertainty, and plenty of people are tired of the protests, too.
他们厌倦了犯罪和不确定性，很多人也厌倦了抗议活动。
I noticed that right before the report on Ali and the others' arrest-- this is the state TV newscast, by the way-- there was a story that combined the issues of thugs and stability, and seemed perfectly placed to tee up their report on Ali and the other supposed thugs the army had arrested.
我注意到，就在有关阿里和其他人被捕的报道之前（顺便说一下，这是国家电视台的新闻广播），有一个故事结合了暴徒和稳定问题，似乎非常适合报道阿里和其他被军队逮捕的所谓暴徒。
In the story, against the backdrop of the newly cleared Tahrir Square, people said they were glad to see some police were back.
故事中，以刚刚清理完毕的解放广场为背景，人们表示很高兴看到一些警察回来了。
The news anchor said the police were there, quote, "to protect citizens, passers-by, and employees of governmental entities from troublemakers and outlaws."
这位新闻主播说，警察在那里“是为了保护公民、路人和政府机构的雇员免受麻烦制造者和不法之徒的侵害。”
Ali was charged with thuggery, among other things.
阿里被指控犯有谋杀罪等。
But he was too well known as an activist from the revolution.
但他作为革命积极分子而闻名。
After four days he was freed, and he was acquitted of the charges.
四天后，他被释放，并被宣告无罪。
Other people arrested at that time, and in later months, were tried in military tribunals, often charged with thuggery, and sometimes getting a sentence of three or five or seven years, after a 20-minute trial.
当时被捕的其他人以及随后的几个月在军事法庭受审，通常被指控犯有谋杀罪，有时在 20 分钟的审判后被判处三年、五年或七年徒刑。
More than 7,000 civilians since February.
自二月份以来已有超过 7,000 名平民。
The military council, SCAF, denies that the army has tortured anyone in custody, although what Ali described was corroborated by many others.
军事委员会 SCAF 否认军队对任何在押人员施以酷刑，尽管阿里的描述得到了许多其他人的证实。
And SCAF basically admitted, after months of pressure, that its arrest of Ali and others on March 9, and the quickie trials that followed, were a serious overreach.
经过几个月的压力，SCAF 基本上承认，3 月 9 日对阿里和其他人的逮捕以及随后的快速审判是严重的越权行为。
This is from their Facebook page.
这是来自他们的 Facebook 页面。
"The head of SCAF has ordered a retrial, especially those arrested in the events of the months of March and April, in order to take the necessary action and immediately release all the noble youth of the revolution."
“SCAF主席已下令重审，特别是那些在三月和四月事件中被捕的人，以便采取必要行动并立即释放所有革命的高贵青年。”
The army is still very popular among the majority of Egyptians.
军队在大多数埃及人中仍然很受欢迎。
But arrests and clashes keep happening, along with military trials.
但逮捕和冲突以及军事审判不断发生。
Ali never idealized the army.
阿里从未将军队理想化。
He wasn't one of the people chanting "The army and the people are one" during the revolution.
他不是革命期间高喊“军民一体”的人之一。
But even a realist can be shocked.
但即使是现实主义者也会感到震惊。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator They would order us to say, "The people and the army are one hand," and whoever wouldn't say it would be beaten up.
[说阿拉伯语]翻译 他们会命令我们说“人民和军队是一只手”，谁不说就会被殴打。
As a joke, they made you say it?
开玩笑，他们让你这么说的？
I don't understand.
我不明白。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator They were playing.
[说阿拉伯语] 翻译 他们正在玩耍。
They were playing.
他们正在玩耍。
They were having a good laugh.
他们笑得很开心。
They were making light of the revolution.
他们正在轻视革命。
They would say, "What, you want to get rid of Mubarak.
他们会说：“什么，你想除掉穆巴拉克。
We're going to get rid of all of you, God willing." And I'd say, "Mubarak's gone.
如果上帝愿意，我们将摆脱你们所有人。”我会说：“穆巴拉克走了。
He left." And they'd say, "No, he didn't."
他离开了。”他们会说：“不，他没有。”
There are new protests on Tahrir Square.
解放广场上出现了新的抗议活动。
And just last week, according to the Egyptian newspaper, Almasry Alyoum , a military committee said that the sit-in on Tahrir Square should end, because there are thugs on the square, who could harm the cause of the revolution.
就在上周，据埃及报纸《Almasry Alyoum》报道，一个军事委员会表示，解放广场上的静坐应该结束，因为广场上有暴徒，他们可能会损害革命事业。
It could be true.
这可能是真的。
But who's going to trust the military now, to decide who's a thug, and who's a noble youth?
但现在谁会相信军队来决定谁是暴徒、谁是高贵的年轻人呢？
Nancy Updike is one of the producers of our show.
南希·厄普代克是我们节目的制片人之一。
Ali's Facebook posting was translated into English by Moataz Atallah and Wiam el-Tamimi.
阿里的 Facebook 帖子由 Moataz Atallah 和 Wiam el-Tamimi 翻译成英文。
The actor reading the translation was Michael Chernus.
朗读译文的演员是迈克尔·切努斯 (Michael Chernus)。
Coming up, Hugs, not Thugs.
来吧，拥抱，而不是暴徒。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life, I'm Ira Glass.
这就是美国生活，我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our show, of course, we choose some theme, bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一些主题，为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's show, thugs, the many forms of them, and the many forms of thuggery.
今天的节目，暴徒，他们的多种形式，以及多种形式的暴行。
We've arrived at Act Two of our show.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two, Lifers.
第二幕，终生者。
This is a story of a kid, named Kenneth Williams, and it's the story of an adult, named Ton'Nea Williams.
这是一个名叫肯尼思·威廉姆斯的孩子的故事，也是一个名叫托尼·威廉姆斯的成年人的故事。
And just so you don't get tripped up here, Ton'nea and Kenneth have the same last name, but they are not related.
为了避免在这里被绊倒，Ton'nea 和 Kenneth 有相同的姓氏，但他们没有亲属关系。
And for most of Kenneth's life, Ton'Nea has had all kinds of ideas about Kenneth, and his thuggishness, that Kenneth may or may not have shared.
在肯尼斯一生的大部分时间里，托尼对肯尼斯以及他的凶残行为有着各种各样的想法，肯尼斯可能有也可能没有认同这些想法。
Reporter Laura Beil spoke to Ton'Nea about this.
记者 Laura Beil 就此采访了 Ton'Nea。
Ton'Nea Williams and I are moms at the same elementary school.
Ton'Nea Williams 和我是同一所小学的妈妈。
Until recently, I didn't know much about her, beyond the basics.
直到最近，我对她的了解还仅限于基本知识。
I knew she was an assistant principal at the high school.
我知道她是高中的副校长。
She's the one in charge of discipline, and she looks the part.
她是负责纪律的人，而且看起来也很符合这个要求。
She's poised, commanding, meticulously put together, and beautiful.
她泰然自若、威严、精心打扮、美丽动人。
We forged a friendship last December, during a trip abroad with the school choir.
去年十二月，我们在与学校合唱团一起出国旅行期间建立了友谊。
On one long bus ride, I learned about how she got into education, and about how she'd been affected, deeply affected, by her relationship with one of the kids she had tried to mentor.
在一次长途巴士旅行中，我了解到她是如何进入教育领域的，以及她与她试图指导的一个孩子的关系如何深深地影响了她。
She started in 1992 when she was fresh out of college.
1992年，她刚从大学毕业，就开始了这一工作。
"I was going to save the world," she said.
“我要拯救世界，”她说。
She took a job at the Alexander Youth Services Center, the juvenile detention facility outside of Little Rock, Arkansas.
她在阿肯色州小石城郊外的亚历山大青年服务中心找到了一份工作。
She had been on the job exactly one day when she was assigned an intake interview on a kid named Kenneth.
就在她上班的那天，她被分配去面试一个名叫肯尼斯的孩子。
He had escaped from prison and had just been recaptured a couple of miles away in the woods of central Arkansas.
他越狱了，刚刚在几英里外的阿肯色州中部的树林里被抓回来。
He was to be her first assignment.
他是她的第一个任务。
She wasn't sure what to expect.
她不确定会发生什么。
I remember looking at this four foot eleven kid that weighed no more than 98 pounds, with twigs in his hair, and scratches on his arm from running through the woods.
我记得看着这个身高 4 英尺 11 英寸、体重不超过 98 磅的孩子，头发里插着树枝，手臂上有在树林里奔跑时留下的抓痕。
And I thought to myself, how does a kid get into this place at 11 or 12?
我心想，一个11岁或12岁的孩子怎么会进入这个地方呢？
What do you do?
你做什么工作？
What did he do?
他做了什么？
And it wasn't until I finished the intake interview that I realized what he was sent to Youth Services for in the beginning.
直到我完成入学面试后，我才意识到他最初被送到青年服务中心的目的是什么。
He was stealing vehicles from a dealership in Pine Bluff.
他从派恩布拉夫的一家经销店偷了车辆。
He was stealing, but he was so young, more boy than criminal, even as she was questioning him.
他在偷东西，但他太年轻了，更像是男孩而不是罪犯，即使她在审问他。
He's this polite kid.
他是个有礼貌的孩子。
I'm not even expecting him to be, you know, nice.
我什至不指望他会，你知道，友善。
He's in a correctional facility for youth.
他在青少年惩教所里。
And he's yes, ma'am and he's no, ma'am.
他是，女士，他不是，女士。
And I expressed to the lady that was training me, "Oh, my God." She basically told me not to open my heart too wide, because I would be let down.
我向训练我的那位女士表示：“哦，我的上帝。”她基本上告诉我不要敞开心扉太宽，因为我会失望。
But I just didn't see that.
但我只是没有看到这一点。
I said, "Well, if you love on kids enough, if you provide them with opportunity at this young age, they won't come here." But she told me, "Guard your heart and get used to it."
我说：“好吧，如果你足够爱孩子，如果你在他们这么小的时候为他们提供机会，他们就不会来这里。”但她告诉我：“守住你的心，习惯它。”
She didn't guard her heart.
她没有守护好自己的心。
It just didn't seem right.
这看起来不太对劲。
Instead, Ton'Nea made a promise to herself.
相反，托尼向自己做出了承诺。
She would find a way to connect with Kenneth, and set him on a better path.
她会找到一种与肯尼斯建立联系的方法，并让他走上一条更好的道路。
It's important to understand that Ton'Nea was not just a naive 22-year old who wanted to change the world one kid at the time.
重要的是要明白，Ton'Nea 不仅仅是一个天真的 22 岁孩子，当时还是一个想要改变世界的孩子。
She'd had a hard time coming up herself.
她自己也很难站起来。
When Ton'Nea was nine, her mother sent her and her five brothers and sisters to live in foster care.
托尼九岁时，她的母亲将她和她的五个兄弟姐妹送到寄养家庭。
All six stayed in a state-run home until families took them in, one by one.
这六人都住在国营之家，直到家人一一收留他们。
Ton'Nea and her sister were the last two to be placed.
Ton'Nea 和她的妹妹是最后两个被安置的人。
After more than a year, parentless and adrift, her father showed up and claimed her.
一年多后，失去父母、漂泊不定的她的父亲出现并认领了她。
She remembers thinking, if only I could get someone to love me and care about me, I'll be OK.
她记得她当时想，如果我能有人爱我、关心我，我就没事了。
And in her case, she was right.
就她而言，她是对的。
She survived those years because of mentors she met, mostly through school, who saw her potential and kept encouraging her.
她能熬过那些年，是因为她遇到的导师（主要是在学校）看到了她的潜力并不断鼓励她。
So when Ton'Nea met Kenneth, she looked to her own life as a blueprint for what to do.
因此，当托尼遇到肯尼斯时，她将自己的生活视为行动的蓝图。
She counseled him around the clock about the importance of staying in school and setting long term goals.
她全天候为他提供关于留在学校和制定长期目标的重要性的建议。
She paid Kenneth to babysit her children, to teach him responsibility.
她付钱给肯尼斯照顾她的孩子，教他承担责任。
Ton'Nea got her husband involved, too, as a male role model, since Kenneth's dad was long gone.
由于肯尼思的父亲早已去世，托尼娅也让她的丈夫作为男性榜样参与其中。
She helped Kenneth's mom get a better job and moved his family to a safer neighborhood, right around the corner from her own.
她帮助肯尼斯的妈妈找到了一份更好的工作，并把他的家人搬到了一个更安全的社区，就在她家的拐角处。
And for all of her efforts, she could see him becoming more accountable.
尽管她付出了所有的努力，她还是可以看到他变得更加负责任。
He was going to school.
他要去上学。
He was meeting curfew.
他正在遵守宵禁。
It sounds simple to say he went to school, and it's not a big accomplishment.
说起来上学听起来很简单，而且也不算什么大成就。
But considering what I was working with, in terms of his past, that was huge.
但考虑到我正在做的事情，就他的过去而言，这是巨大的。
It was also huge that he would volunteer his time, and that he would go to church.
他愿意贡献自己的时间，去教堂，这也很重要。
One morning he shows up, no prior notice.
一天早上，他在没有事先通知的情况下出现了。
"I'd like to go to church with you." So it was signs like that, that I felt there was progress being made.
“我想和你一起去教堂。”因此，有这样的迹象，我觉得正在取得进展。
I felt like we were on the right track.
我觉得我们走在正确的轨道上。
It was a really good feeling.
这种感觉真的很好。
And the naysayers that said, "Once the kids get caught up in the juvenile correctional system, they never change." I wanted to say, "See?
反对者说：“一旦孩子们陷入少年管教系统，他们就永远不会改变。”我想说：“看到了吗？
It can be done.
这是可以做到的。
It can be done.
这是可以做到的。
We can change these kids.
我们可以改变这些孩子。
See, here's an example." He was to be my poster child for change.
看，这是一个例子。”他将成为我变革的典型代表。
He was like family.
他就像家人一样。
He would drop in from time to time to say hello, or grab a burger at a weekend barbecue.
他会时不时地过来打个招呼，或者在周末烧烤时吃个汉堡。
Things with kids at the detention center, and especially with Kenneth, were going so well that she decided to move beyond her nine-to-five job as a government caseworker, and become an activist.
拘留中心的孩子们，尤其是肯尼斯，进展顺利，以至于她决定放弃朝九晚五的政府社会工作者工作，成为一名活动家。
She and her husband started youth basketball camps outside Little Rock.
她和她的丈夫在小石城外开始了青少年篮球训练营。
In 1997, Ton'nea capitalized on the fact that she is a towering beauty to run for and win the title of Mrs. Arkansas America.
1997年，托内亚凭借自己的绝世美貌竞选并赢得了美国阿肯色夫人的称号。
You need a cause to be in a pageant, of course, and hers was juvenile crime prevention.
当然，参加选美比赛需要有一个目标，而她的目标就是预防青少年犯罪。
Her slogan?
她的口号？
Helping all youth see their potential through education and extracurricular activities.
帮助所有青少年通过教育和课外活动看到自己的潜力。
Not catchy, but sincere.
不吸引人，但真诚。
She'd give speeches to churches and youth groups throughout the state about the importance of staying in school and keeping out of trouble.
她会向全州的教堂和青年团体发表演讲，讲述留在学校和远离麻烦的重要性。
But the next year, things changed.
但第二年，情况发生了变化。
In Pine Bluff, where she lived, two University of Arkansas students were robbed at gunpoint outside a local restaurant, kidnapped, and shot in a nearby field.
在她居住的派恩布拉夫，两名阿肯色大学学生在当地一家餐馆外遭到持枪抢劫、绑架，并在附近的田野中被枪杀。
The girl, a cheerleader at the university, died.
这名女孩是大学啦啦队长，去世了。
But the other student survived, remaining conscious enough to crawl to a road and flag down help.
但另一名学生幸存下来，他仍然有足够的意识爬到路边挥手示意求救。
After a three-day manhunt, the police found their suspect.
经过三天的搜捕，警方找到了犯罪嫌疑人。
This afternoon, Jefferson County Sheriff's deputies arrested 19 year old Kenneth Williams.
今天下午，杰斐逊县警长副手逮捕了 19 岁的肯尼思·威廉姆斯。
He is now charged with capital murder and attempted capital murder.
他现在被指控犯有谋杀罪和谋杀未遂罪。
I heard it on television, and I sat.
我在电视上听到了，我就坐了下来。
It's like, the wind was knocked out of me.
就像，风被吹走了。
And I got on the phone, and I called a friend of mine, and I asked them had they heard anything about him being arrested?
我打电话给我的一个朋友，我问他们有没有听说他被捕的消息？
And they told me yes.
他们告诉我是的。
And I just held the phone, and I could hear them saying hello, hello.
我只是拿着电话，我就能听到他们说你好，你好。
And I was just sitting there.
而我就坐在那里。
And what did you think?
你觉得怎么样？
What were you thinking?
你在想什么？
You've made a mistake.
你犯了一个错误。
This is not possible.
这是不可能的。
It's not possible.
这是不可能的。
Prior to Kenneth being arrested, as a suspect, I remember hearing about a gold tooth.
在肯尼斯被捕之前，作为嫌疑人，我记得听说过金牙。
This person had a gold tooth.
这个人有一颗金牙。
He doesn't have one.
他没有。
Kenneth had a cousin who did have a gold tooth, and the police sketches Ton'Nea had seen looked just like this cousin.
肯尼斯有一个表弟，他确实有一颗金牙，托尼看到的警方草图看起来就像这个表弟。
She was sure police had gotten the wrong guy.
她确信警方抓错人了。
Ton'Nea says everyone around her-- friends, coworkers-- washed their hands of Kenneth.
托尼说，她周围的每个人——朋友、同事——都不再与肯尼斯握手。
When Kenneth's defense attorneys asked Ton'Nea to be a character witness on his behalf, even her husband, Shawn, tried to talk her out of it.
当肯尼斯的辩护律师要求托尼作为他的品格证人时，甚至她的丈夫肖恩也试图劝说她不要这么做。
She took the stand anyway.
不管怎样，她还是站了出来。
What I remember most is sharing with them, this is not the person that I know.
我最记得的是和他们分享，这不是我认识的人。
I don't know someone that would repeatedly shoot a female and kill her.
我不知道有人会反复射杀女性并杀死她。
And I don't know anyone that would leave another person for dead.
我不知道有谁会置他人于死地。
I don't know anyone like that.
我不认识这样的人。
I remember him sitting at the table with his attorneys.
我记得他和他的律师坐在桌旁。
And after I testified, he looked over at the area of the courtroom that I was sitting in, and he smiled at me.
在我作证后，他看了看我所坐的法庭区域，并对我微笑。
I took his smile as-- I saw pain in it.
我把他的微笑视为——我看到了其中的痛苦。
I saw a smile but I saw a pain in it, that he was going through this process, that he was innocent of something that he would now spend the rest of his life in prison for.
我看到了一个微笑，但我看到了其中的痛苦，他正在经历这个过程，他对一些事情是无辜的，而他现在将为此在监狱里度过余生。
But it was of gratitude.
但那是出于感激。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you for caring enough to be here.
谢谢你足够的关心来到这里。
Thank you for caring enough to share the person that I am.
感谢您足够关心分享我这个人。
The jury was not so sympathetic.
陪审团并不那么同情。
Kenneth was convicted of capital murder, attempted capital murder, and seven other counts, including kidnapping, aggravated robbery, and theft.
肯尼思被判犯有死刑谋杀、谋杀未遂和其他七项罪名，包括绑架、严重抢劫和盗窃。
He was sentenced to life without parole.
他被判处终身监禁，不得假释。
Still, prosecutors told Ton'Nea that because of her, Kenneth had probably been spared the death penalty.
尽管如此，检察官告诉托尼，因为她，肯尼思可能免于死刑。
Even as Kenneth sat behind bars, Ton'Nea couldn't let him go.
即使肯尼思被关在监狱里，托尼也无法让他离开。
She had spent most of her adult life with one eye on Kenneth, trying to keep him out of prison.
她成年后的大部分时间都盯着肯尼斯，试图让他远离监狱。
And now, that's exactly where he was.
而现在，那正是他所在的地方。
Kenneth called every so often.
肯尼斯经常打电话来。
Ton'Nea tried to keep his spirits up.
托尼试图让自己振作起来。
She told him to put his faith in God and in the truth.
她告诉他要相信上帝和真理。
Her life was changing by then.
那时她的生活正在改变。
She'd quit her job at the juvenile detention center where she'd first met Kenneth, and became a teacher.
她辞去了在少年拘留中心的工作，在那里她第一次见到了肯尼思，并成为了一名教师。
Instead of trying to rescue kids who were already in trouble with the law, she wanted to keep them out of jail altogether.
她不想试图营救已经触犯法律的孩子，而是想让他们完全远离监狱。
She threw herself into her new job.
她全身心投入到新工作中。
She focused on raising her family.
她专注于养家糊口。
And she tried not to be preoccupied with Kenneth.
她尽量不去想肯尼斯。
One night, I saw the caller ID, and I knew that it was a call coming through from Kenneth, and I did not answer.
一天晚上，我看到来电显示，知道是肯尼思打来的电话，但我没有接听。
I got up the next morning, as usual.
第二天早上我像往常一样起床。
I stopped by the corner convenience store, and I remember the clerk telling me that she heard my address, or my street, over the scanner, that someone had escaped from prison.
我在街角的便利店停下来，我记得店员告诉我，她通过扫描仪听到了我的地址或我的街道，有人越狱了。
I was taken back by it, but I continued on to work.
我被这件事吓住了，但我还是继续工作。
And the state trooper came to my job and shared what had happened.
州警来到我的工作岗位并告诉了我所发生的事情。
Kenneth had escaped, and they were looking for him.
肯尼斯逃跑了，他们正在寻找他。
I was scared for him.
我为他感到害怕。
State troopers use real guns.
州警使用真枪。
And he may have the mindset of, I will not go back to prison.
他可能有这样的心态：我不会再回监狱了。
You're going to have to kill me.
你必须杀了我。
News reports announced round-the-clock updates on the manhunt.
新闻报道全天候公布搜捕行动的最新情况。
But also, stories asked, how on earth does an inmate escape a maximum security prison after being there less than a month?
而且，故事还提出，一名囚犯在高度戒备的监狱里呆了不到一个月，到底是如何逃脱的呢？
The prison says it conducts five mandatory head counts each day, but somewhere in between two of those counts yesterday, Williams mysteriously disappeared.
监狱表示，每天都会进行五次强制清点人数，但在昨天的两次清点之间，威廉姆斯神秘失踪。
Here's what happened.
事情是这样的。
He was able to get on a slop truck, and slip into a bucket of slop.
他登上了一辆污水车，然后滑进了一桶污水中。
A bucket of slop.
一桶污水。
Ton'nea Williams It just is like hog slop, what you feed the hogs.
Ton'nea Williams 这就像猪粪，你喂猪的东西。
And he was able to survive in a bucket of slop long enough to escape.
他在一桶污水中生存了足够长的时间来逃脱。
Kenneth was captured, but not without casualties.
肯尼思被俘，但也有人员伤亡。
In making his escape, he stole a truck near the prison.
为了越狱，他在监狱附近偷了一辆卡车。
He shot the owner of the truck, with the man's own gun, seven times before fleeing, killing him.
他用卡车车主自己的枪向车主开了七枪，然后逃跑，将其杀死。
A day later, trying to outrun police in Missouri, Kenneth slammed head-on into a delivery truck, and the driver died in the crash.
一天后，肯尼思在密苏里州试图逃脱警察追捕时，迎头撞上了一辆送货卡车，司机在车祸中死亡。
Kenneth was caught and sentenced to death row.
肯尼斯被捕并被判处死刑。
Ton'Nea couldn't help feeling responsible for the people who died during Kenneth's escape.
托尼忍不住对肯尼思逃跑期间死去的人感到负责。
Why didn't she just pick up the phone that night?
那天晚上她为什么不接电话？
To her it was, quite literally, a call for help.
对她来说，这实际上是一个求助电话。
Maybe she could have talked him down from his desperation.
也许她可以说服他摆脱绝望。
So the prison break, and the murder, and everything that happened, did that raise doubts for you about his innocence?
那么越狱、谋杀以及所发生的一切，是否让你对他的清白产生怀疑？
When I heard about the murder, I immediately thought, well he probably was trying to steal or rob to get away.
当我听说这起谋杀案时，我立即想到，他可能是想通过偷窃或抢劫来逃脱。
I never thought that he maliciously went to the location to kill this person.
没想到他竟然恶意去现场杀了这个人。
I felt like, you have a person incarcerated, and they've just made a desperate attempt, because they are innocent.
我觉得，你有一个人被监禁，他们只是做出了绝望的尝试，因为他们是无辜的。
This surprised me.
这让我很惊讶。
Even though she knew Kenneth shot the truck owner, she was still certain he was innocent?
即使她知道肯尼思枪杀了卡车车主，她仍然确信他是无辜的？
Years went by.
几年过去了。
Ton'Nea thought about Kenneth almost every day.
托尼几乎每天都想着肯尼斯。
Then in 2005, two things happened that changed Ton'Nea's life.
2005 年，发生了两件事改变了 Ton'Nea 的生活。
One of Ton'Nea's sisters lost custody of her four sons, all of them under 10.
Ton'Nea 的一位姐妹失去了四个儿子的监护权，这些儿子都不满 10 岁。
She could not bear the idea of seeing more young boys surrendered to foster care, especially after losing Kenneth.
她无法忍受看到更多的小男孩被寄养，尤其是在失去肯尼斯之后。
Already with three of their own, she and her husband adopted her four nephews, suddenly giving her a household of seven children.
她和她的丈夫已经有了自己的三个孩子，又收养了她的四个侄子，突然间她的家庭就有了七个孩子。
One more thing happened.
又发生了一件事。
That summer, Pine Bluff's local newspaper, The Pine Bluff Commercial , published an article announcing Kenneth's confession to the original crime.
那年夏天，派恩布拉夫当地报纸《派恩布拉夫商业报》发表了一篇文章，宣布肯尼斯承认了最初的罪行。
He'd found God, he said, in a six-page letter to the paper, and needed to atone for what he'd done.
他在给该报的一封长达六页的信中说，他找到了上帝，并且需要为自己的所作所为赎罪。
He also admitted to another murder that he was never even suspected of committing.
他还承认了另一起他从未被怀疑犯下的谋杀案。
The gold tooth, the thing Ton'Nea had clung to all these years, was just a cap that he could put on and take off.
金牙，托尼多年来一直紧贴着的东西，只是一顶可以戴上或摘下的帽子。
A friend of mine called me, from Pine Bluff, and actually read most of the article to me.
我的一个朋友从派恩布拉夫给我打电话，他实际上给我读了这篇文章的大部分内容。
And I said, "I need a copy.
我说：“我需要一份副本。
I need a copy.
我需要一份副本。
I need to read it for myself.
我需要自己读一下。
No, no, no. I need to read it for myself.
不，不，不。我需要自己读一下。
Oh my God.
天哪。
Oh my God.
天哪。
All this time."
一直以来。”
For days she would read the story again and again, then retrace all of her steps, trying to pinpoint where she'd gone wrong.
几天来，她会一遍又一遍地阅读这个故事，然后回顾她所有的步骤，试图找出她哪里出了问题。
You know, I don't cry.
你知道，我不哭。
I'm mad, because I'm thinking, dude, I stood by you, and believed, and had faith in you that you were innocent.
我很生气，因为我在想，老兄，我支持你，相信你，相信你是无辜的。
And I really believed that you were not the one that committed these crimes.
我真的相信你不是犯下这些罪行的人。
I felt foolish.
我觉得自己很愚蠢。
I don't think tears were a part of that.
我不认为眼泪是其中的一部分。
I'm, like, really pissed off.
我真的很生气。
I'm pissed off that I testified, and you actually killed this girl.
我很生气我作证了，而你居然杀了这个女孩。
The confession forced Ton'Nea to face some disturbing truths about Kenneth.
这一坦白迫使托尼面对一些有关肯尼思的令人不安的事实。
Clearly she never really knew who he was, or what he needed.
显然她从来不知道他是谁，也不知道他需要什么。
She just couldn't see it.
她只是看不到而已。
And if that was the case, what did that mean for the kids she works with every day at her job?
如果是这样的话，这对于每天与她一起工作的孩子们来说意味着什么呢？
What did it mean for her own kids at home?
这对她家里的孩子意味着什么？
What if she was getting it wrong with them, too?
如果她也误解了他们怎么办？
So when I ask her about regrets over Kenneth, she doesn't write him off.
因此，当我问她对肯尼思有何遗憾时，她并没有否认他。
All these years later, she's still problem solving.
这么多年过去了，她仍然在解决问题。
I'm not convinced I did everything that I could have.
我不相信我已经做了我能做的一切。
I still wish there was something that I could have done to change the whole trajectory of his life.
我仍然希望我能做点什么来改变他的整个人生轨迹。
Even now.
即使是现在。
Obviously, he needed something different.
显然，他需要一些不同的东西。
What else could have been done with Kenneth?
肯尼斯还能做些什么呢？
I would like to ask him that question.
我想问他这个问题。
And I would like for that question to be a face-to-face question.
我希望这个问题是一个面对面的问题。
What else did you need?
你还需要什么？
What else could have been done to prevent these events from happening?
还可以采取什么措施来防止这些事件的发生？
West.
西方。
Robyn Semien Oh, there's Pine Bluff.
罗宾·塞米恩 哦，那是派恩布拉夫。
It's a rainy, freakishly cold day this May, when Ton'Nea, my producer, Robyn, and I, drive from the airport in Little Rock to the Varner Supermax Unit south of Pine Bluff, to ask him those questions.
今年五月的一个下雨天，天气异常寒冷，托尼、我的制作人罗宾和我从小石城机场开车前往派恩布拉夫以南的瓦尔纳 Supermax 公寓，向他询问这些问题。
We're running late.
我们要迟到了。
Its a little nerve-wracking.
有点让人伤脑筋。
A weird kind of nerve-wracking, being late for a reunion between two people who will never see each other again.
两个永远不会再见面的人重聚却迟到了，这是一种奇怪的伤脑筋的感觉。
As we drive south on Highway 65, Robyn checks in with Ton'Nea.
当我们沿着 65 号高速公路向南行驶时，罗宾 (Robyn) 向托尼 (Ton'Nea) 报到。
Ton'Nea, I wanted to ask you before we get there, should we stay as long as we can?
Ton'Nea，我想在我们到达那里之前问你，我们应该尽可能长时间地停留吗？
I'm kind of nervous.
我有点紧张。
I don't know.
我不知道。
If that's something that we can kind of gauge as we go?
如果这是我们可以随时衡量的东西？
You know, you think you know, going into a situation, how you're going to respond, and the emotions that you will feel.
你知道，你认为你知道，进入一种情况，你将如何反应，以及你会感受到的情绪。
But in actuality, until you get there, you really don't know.
但实际上，在你到达那里之前，你真的不知道。
And because I've held onto a lot of this for awhile, I really don't know what that's going to look like for me.
因为我已经坚持了很多这样的事情一段时间了，我真的不知道这对我来说会是什么样子。
We stay for the whole visitation time, two hours.
整个参观时间我们都呆在这儿，两个小时。
But the prison officials won't let us record the visit.
但监狱官员不让我们记录这次探视。
Here's what happens.
事情是这样的。
We meet him in a bare, drab, low ceiling room, with a lineup of glass booths that jut out from one of the walls.
我们在一间光秃秃、单调、天花板低矮的房间里见到了他，房间里有一排玻璃隔间从其中一堵墙伸出来。
To have a conversation through the glass, you have to practically shout.
想要隔着玻璃进行对话，你几乎必须大声喊叫。
We are the only visitors this day, and Kenneth waits alone.
我们是今天唯一的访客，肯尼斯独自等待。
Ton'Nea reaches him first, and cries.
托尼第一个走到他身边，哭了起来。
She has a hard time catching her breath.
她呼吸困难。
Kenneth is not expecting us.
肯尼斯没有在等我们。
The prison told him he had visitors coming, but not who.
监狱告诉他有访客来访，但没有透露是谁。
So he's startled at first, and then seeing Ton'Nea, pleased, he tries to comfort her.
所以他一开始很惊讶，然后看到托妮亚很高兴，他试图安慰她。
"I'm OK," he keeps saying.
“我很好，”他不断地说。
He brings his hand up to the window, and she brings hers up to meet it.
他把手伸到窗户上，她也伸出手去迎接。
Around his neck hangs an oversize cross.
他的脖子上挂着一个超大的十字架。
They spend the first few moments catching up, volunteering the kind of details that old friends would after a long separation.
他们在最初的几分钟里互相叙叙旧，自愿提供一些细节，就像老朋友在长期分离后所做的那样。
She's moved to Texas.
她搬到了德克萨斯州。
His parents have gotten back together.
他的父母已经复合了。
Her daughter's getting ready for prom.
她女儿正在为舞会做准备。
She introduces Robyn and me, explaining that we are with her because we are telling her story for a radio show, but that we couldn't bring recording equipment.
她介绍了罗宾和我，解释说我们和她在一起是因为我们要在广播节目中讲述她的故事，但我们不能带录音设备。
He mentions other inmates who have gotten on television.
他提到了其他上电视的囚犯。
"This is radio," she repeats.
“这是广播，”她重复道。
For the first half hour or so, Kenneth's charming.
在前半个小时左右的时间里，肯尼斯很迷人。
He's friendly and easygoing, relaxed.
他友善、随和、放松。
Then Ton'Nea gets to why she came.
然后托尼明白了她来这里的原因。
She tells him that she can't shake the idea that she could somehow have prevented his crimes.
她告诉他，她无法摆脱这样的想法：她本可以以某种方式阻止他的犯罪。
"I've carried this burden for years," she tells him.
“多年来我一直背负着这个负担，”她告诉他。
"What else could I have done?
“我还能做什么呢？
What else did you need?"
你还需要什么？”
Kenneth doesn't hesitate.
肯尼斯毫不犹豫。
He doesn't even seem to think about his answer.
他似乎根本没有考虑自己的答案。
"Oh, there's nothing you could have done," he says.
“哦，你无能为力，”他说。
"No one could have helped me.
“没有人能帮助我。
I knew what I wanted to do, and I was going to do it." He goes on.
我知道我想做什么，我就会去做。”他继续说下去。
"I was a bad kid, and I wanted to do right by you, but I just couldn't." I can't help but notice that during this, Ton'Nea both nods and looks unconvinced.
“我是个坏孩子，我想对你做点好事，但我就是做不到。”我不禁注意到，在这期间，托尼一边点头，一边显得不服气。
She asks about that day in court, when she testified, which was monumental for her.
她询问了她在法庭上作证的那一天，这对她来说具有里程碑意义。
He breezes past it.
他轻而易举地过去了。
He remembers being happy to see her, and hating the people testifying against him.
他记得很高兴见到她，并讨厌那些指证他的人。
And then, maybe because it was the only thing really to talk about, a monologue about killings.
然后，也许是因为这是唯一真正值得谈论的事情，关于杀戮的独白。
Kenneth says that for years after his conviction, he was dark and resentful, even suicidal.
肯尼斯说，在他被定罪后的几年里，他内心阴暗、怨恨，甚至有自杀倾向。
One day blurring with the next, waiting for a date to die, never admitting to anyone, even himself, what he had done to be on death row.
一天与一天的关系模糊不清，等待着某一天的死去，从不向任何人承认，甚至他自己，他做了什么才被关进死囚牢房。
He began to change, he says, one day while flipping through the trial documents.
他说，有一天，当他翻阅审判文件时，他开始改变。
He looked at the photo of his victim, the girl he killed, alive and beautiful.
他看着受害者的照片，也就是他杀死的女孩，她还活着，而且很美丽。
Then he held it side-by-side with her autopsy photo and thought, I did that.
然后他把它和她的尸检照片放在一起，心想，我就是这么做的。
He pauses and puts a hand over his face, as if he's collecting himself enough to continue.
他停了下来，用手捂住脸，好像他已经镇定下来可以继续了。
But watching Kenneth relive this is like watching a bad play.
但看肯尼斯重温这一切就像看一场糟糕的戏剧。
The words are disconnected from his gestures.
这些话与他的手势是脱节的。
He makes a show of weeping, lowering his eyes, shaking his head, and covering his face with his arms.
他表现出哭泣的样子，低下眼睛，摇着头，用双臂捂住脸。
When he looks up again, I don't see any tears.
当他再次抬起头时，我没有看到任何泪水。
With the university students, he'd wanted money, initially.
对于大学生来说，一开始他想要的是钱。
But once Kenneth had gotten his cash, he let the two go.
但肯尼斯拿到现金后，就放走了两人。
Then he drove a block down the road and then stopped, realizing they'd seen his face, and could identify him.
然后他沿着路开了一个街区，然后停了下来，意识到他们已经看到了他的脸，并且可以认出他。
He tells us he was fascinated with the idea of killing someone.
他告诉我们他对杀人的想法很着迷。
Wonder what it would be like, he recalls thinking, and trails off.
不知道那会是什么样子，他回忆道，然后声音逐渐减弱。
He went back, let them beg for their lives, and shot them, over and over.
他回去后，让他们乞求饶命，然后一次又一次地开枪射杀他们。
Then the victims of his prison break.
然后是他越狱的受害者。
A farmer, the one with the truck, was trying to run away when Kenneth gunned him down.
一名开卡车的农民正试图逃跑，肯尼思开枪射杀了他。
And finally, this.
最后，这个。
After the car chase in Missouri, state troopers made Kenneth walk over and look at the lifeless body of the delivery driver, thinking Kenneth would be remorseful.
密苏里州的汽车追逐事件结束后，州警让肯尼斯走过去，看着送货司机毫无生气的尸体，认为肯尼斯会后悔。
Instead, Kenneth says all he saw was the man who got in the way of his escape, and he spit on the body.
相反，肯尼斯说他看到的只是那个阻碍他逃跑的人，然后他向尸体吐口水。
This doesn't look or sound like bragging.
这看起来或听起来不像是吹牛。
It's something else altogether.
这完全是另一回事。
Kenneth looks at us, sees Ton'Nea crying and looks down again, this time moving his shoulders up and down unconvincingly.
肯尼斯看着我们，看到托尼在哭泣，他又低下头，这一次他的肩膀上下移动，令人难以置信。
Here's what doesn't happen at the prison.
这是监狱里不会发生的事情。
He doesn't tell Ton'Nea he's sorry for the pain he caused her, or for letting her take the stand on his behalf, knowing his innocence was a farce.
他没有告诉托妮，他对自己给她造成的痛苦感到抱歉，也没有让她代表他出庭，因为他知道自己的清白只是一场闹剧。
He doesn't ask about her life, or how she's been doing all these years.
他没有问她的生活，也没有问她这些年过得怎么样。
He does ask one thing.
他确实问了一件事。
If we come back again, are we bringing cameras?
如果我们再回来的话，我们会带相机吗？
At 4:30 we head back to the car, all of us trying to make sense of what just happened.
4:30，我们回到车上，所有人都试图弄清楚刚刚发生的事情。
You told me once that you think about Kenneth a lot, like just, what happened, this whole episode.
你曾经告诉我，你经常想起肯尼思，比如，整个事件中发生了什么。
Do you think after today, you'll be able to think about him less?
你想，今天之后，你会不会对他的思念少一些呢？
I think I will be able to let those things, those burdens that I carried, of did you do everything you could have done?
我想我能够放下那些事情，那些我背负的重担，你做了你能做的一切吗？
Is there something else you could have said.
你还有什么可以说的吗？
Is there something else you could have done?
你还有什么可以做的吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I think that I can lay that to rest.
我想我可以把这件事抛诸脑后了。
And that was what was keeping me up at night.
这就是让我彻夜难眠的原因。
Because I just felt like there was more we could have done.
因为我只是觉得我们还可以做更多的事情。
But he gave confirmation that short of God coming to Earth and standing in front of him, he was going to do what he wanted to do.
但他确认，如果上帝没有来到地球并站在他面前，他就会做他想做的事。
He was very clear about that.
这点他非常清楚。
You were not going to stop me, and I loved you.
你不会阻止我，我爱你。
I loved my mama.
我爱我的妈妈。
She wasn't going to stop me.
她不会阻止我。
I love my sister.
我爱我的妹妹。
She wasn't going to stop me.
她不会阻止我。
This is what I was going to do.
这就是我要做的。
She says she hopes he's remorseful, and has gotten right with God, but she just can't tell.
她说她希望他能悔罪，并与上帝和好，但她就是不知道。
She doesn't buy it, when he said he was in denial himself for years, about having killed anyone.
当他说他多年来一直否认自己杀过人时，她并不相信。
The more she talks, the more she finds things to discredit, including the biggest thing, that there was nothing she could have done.
她说得越多，就越发现有什么可抹黑的地方，其中最重要的是，她无能为力。
You know, he said that, but let's go back to his start.
你知道，他是这么说的，但让我们回到他的开始。
He said that we couldn't do anything to help him.
他说我们帮不了他什么。
But when, in actuality, as a nine and ten year old, you can provide Little League.
但实际上，作为一个九岁和十岁的孩子，你可以参加少年棒球联盟。
You can provide activities.
您可以提供活动。
Now, this is the start of it.
现在，这就是一切的开始。
I wasn't with her on this one.
在这件事上我没有和她在一起。
From what I saw, all the Little League in the world was not going to stop Kenneth.
据我所知，世界上所有的少年棒球联盟都无法阻止肯尼斯。
It's still hard to say it.
还是很难说。
I don't think you'll ever get me to say--
我认为你永远不会让我说——
Never get you to say what?
从来不让你说什么？
Ton'nea Williams That we did everything we could.
Ton'nea Williams 我们已竭尽全力。
Because I still, even with him where he is, I'm still going to search for what I could have done.
因为即使有他在，我仍然会寻找我可以做的事情。
Two weeks later, I visit Ton'Nea and her husband, Shawn, at their house.
两周后，我去托尼 (Ton'Nea) 和她的丈夫肖恩 (Shawn) 家拜访。
I'm curious how the trip to visit Kenneth has affected the rest of Ton'Nea's family.
我很好奇拜访肯尼斯的旅行对托尼的其他家人有何影响。
Shawn tells me Ton'Nea's been keeping the kids on an even shorter leash than usual.
肖恩告诉我，托尼对孩子们的束缚比平时更紧。
With her visiting Kenneth, talking to Kenneth, I knew probably for the next six months, around here at the house, everything going to be a boot camp, with the kids.
当她拜访肯尼思并与肯尼思交谈时，我知道可能在接下来的六个月里，在家里，一切都将成为与孩子们一起的新兵训练营。
So you knew she was going to come back more-- no matter what happened-- that she was going to come back from this more determined.
所以你知道她会更多地回来——无论发生什么——她会更加坚定地回来。
Oh, I know my wife.
哦，我认识我的妻子。
I kind of felt for the kids.
我有点同情孩子们。
I really know she was going to-- In a good way.
我真的知道她会——以一种好的方式。
In a good way.
以一种好的方式。
I find myself defending them a little more, probably, than what I should.
我发现自己为他们辩护的次数可能比我应该做的要多一些。
Shawn said that even before we went to Arkansas, he knew that his wife would never come home and accept the idea that there was nothing to be done for Kenneth.
肖恩说，甚至在我们去阿肯色州之前，他就知道他的妻子永远不会回家并接受肯尼思无能为力的想法。
Sometimes she'd put blinders on.
有时她会戴上眼罩。
And I don't think she always look at the possibility of the other side.
而且我不认为她总是看对方的可能性。
And in Kenneth's situation, there was a possibility that he did do it.
而以肯尼思的情况来看，他确实有可能这么做了。
She'll get something that she believe in, she will put her all and all into it.
她会得到她所相信的东西，她会全力以赴。
For me, she get too passionate sometimes.
对我来说，她有时太热情了。
She's pretty headstrong.
她相当任性。
And I don't know if that's a good or bad thing.
我不知道这是好事还是坏事。
Ton'Nea told me later that she had never heard him say that before, and sitting next to him that day, she couldn't let this go by.
托尼后来告诉我，她以前从未听过他这么说过，那天坐在他旁边，她无法放过这件事。
You know that I've spent my life being passionate.
你知道我这一生都充满激情。
And I have a true, true respect for people that need to be connected with.
我对需要联系的人怀有真正的尊重。
I think a lot of it has to do with, if somebody hadn't seen the good in me, I don't know where I would be right now.
我认为这很大程度上与如果有人没有看到我身上的优点有关，我不知道我现在会在哪里。
And if sometime there's someone that I'm wrong about, I'll accept that.
如果有时我对某人的看法是错误的，我会接受。
But it'll never change, me wanting to help people, because I've been helped my whole life by people blessing me, believing in me when I didn't believe in myself.
但它永远不会改变，我想帮助别人，因为我一生都受到人们的帮助，他们祝福我，当我不相信自己时相信我。
So I know the power of that.
所以我知道它的力量。
And I don't think I'm ever going to give up trying.
我认为我永远不会放弃尝试。
Especially now, with a house full of children, the youngest going into first grade.
尤其是现在，家里挤满了孩子，最小的已经上一年级了。
I think, coming back, there was a lot of anxiety that I was still working through after the visit.
我想，回来后，我仍然在克服访问后的很多焦虑。
And being sluggish at work, and it's like, OK, what's going on?
工作中表现迟缓，然后就想，好吧，发生了什么事？
I'm waking up at 3 o'clock, I'm waking up at 4 o'clock.
我三点起床，四点起床。
I was having moments of just waking up and restlessness.
我有过刚醒来和不安的时刻。
I sleep light.
我睡得很浅。
And I'm always up in the middle of the night, watching TV, and she was-- I found her taking the remote from me at 3:00 in the morning.
我总是在半夜起床看电视，而她——我发现她在凌晨 3:00 就从我身边拿走了遥控器。
I mean, she usually, when she goes to sleep, she'll sleep through the night.
我的意思是，她通常在睡觉时会睡整夜。
But for about a week, there were several times that she was waking up during the night.
但大约一周的时间里，她有好几次半夜醒来。
I was waking up, because it was a nightmare.
我醒了，因为这是一场噩梦。
And I'm in prison, sitting across from one of my children.
我在监狱里，坐在我的一个孩子对面。
And I just-- the anxiety came from just thinking about my family, and how can I prevent this from happening?
我只是——焦虑来自于想到我的家人，我怎样才能防止这种情况发生？
And making sure that I don't ever have to look through a glass and talk to them from a prison cell.
确保我不必在牢房里透过玻璃与他们交谈。
Lately, Ton'Nea is worried about one of her kids in particular.
最近，托尼特别担心她的一个孩子。
A few months ago, when the whole family was having dinner at a neighbor's house, one of her nephews, now her son, stole a wallet from the neighbor's purse.
几个月前，当全家人在邻居家吃饭时，她的一个侄子（现在是她的儿子）从邻居的钱包里偷了一个钱包。
Ton'Nea and Shawn found it, and made him take the wallet back and apologize.
Ton'Nea 和 Shawn 发现了它，并让他拿回钱包并道歉。
But it's not lost on her that this nephew is about the same age as Kenneth was when she first met him all those years ago, when he was arrested for stealing.
但她并没有忘记，这个侄子的年龄与多年前她第一次见到肯尼思时的年龄相仿，当时肯尼思因偷窃被捕。
Ton'Nea had wanted to come home from Arkansas and leave Kenneth behind.
托尼想要从阿肯色州回家，把肯尼斯抛在身后。
Instead he's still here, in a way he hasn't been before.
相反，他仍然在这里，以一种他以前从未来过的方式。
[MUSIC-- BAD INTENTIONS BY SHONA FOSTER]
[音乐——绍纳·福斯特的《坏意图》]
Our program was produced today by Jonathan Menjivar, with Ben Calhoun, Jane Feltes, Sarah Koenig, Eric Mennel, Lisa Pollak, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
我们今天的节目由 Jonathan Menjivar 与 Ben Calhoun、Jane Feltes、Sarah Koenig、Eric Mennel、Lisa Pollak、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 共同制作。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Production help from [?
来自 [?的生产帮助
Mickey Meek ?].
米奇米克？]。
Music help from [?
音乐帮助来自 [?
Damien Grafe, ?] Seth Linde is our production manager.
Damien Grafe，？] Seth Linde 是我们的生产经理。
Emily Condon's our office manager.
艾米丽·康登是我们的办公室经理。
Special thanks to Jesse Hardman.
特别感谢杰西·哈德曼。
The Spanish interpreter for the opening story in today's show was Juan Carlos Correo from the Cross-Cultural Interpreting Services of the Heartland Alliance.
今天节目开场故事的西班牙语口译员是来自中心地带联盟跨文化口译服务部门的胡安·卡洛斯·科雷奥 (Juan Carlos Correo)。
Today's show is our last show with Eric Mennel as our intern.
今天的节目是我们实习生 Eric Mennel 的最后一场节目。
He did all of the mixes for Act One of today's show, which was par for the course for him.
他为今天演出的第一幕做了所有混音，这对他来说是正常的。
He's been mixing stories for us for months, and has been super capable at everything else we have thrown at him.
几个月来，他一直在为我们混合故事，而且在我们交给他的其他事情上他都表现得非常出色。
He's on the job market.
他在就业市场上。
If you are looking to hire somebody like that, drop us a line.
如果您想雇用这样的人，请给我们留言。
Thank me later, Eric.
稍后谢谢我，埃里克。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
WBEZ management oversight for our show by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia.
我们的老板 Torey Malatia 先生对我们的演出进行 WBEZ 管理监督。
You know, God knows, he's always loved table scraps, which perhaps explains his lifelong dream.
你知道，上帝知道，他总是喜欢吃残羹剩饭，这也许解释了他一生的梦想。
--to get on a slop truck, and slip into a bucket of slop.
——登上一辆污水车，然后滑进一桶污水中。
It just is like hog slop.
它就像猪粪一样。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week, with more stories of This American Life.
下周将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。