436: The Psychopath Test - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #436 | July 16, 2021 436: The Psychopath Test Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 436 集 | 2021 年 7 月 16 日 436：精神病患者测试 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass A few months ago, all of us here at This American Life heard that there's this test that they give to determine if somebody is a psychopath.
序言 Ira Glass 几个月前，《This American Life》的所有人都听说他们进行了一项测试来确定某人是否是精神病患者。
And we thought, we want to take that.
我们想，我们想接受它。
So we asked a forensic psychologist, Dr. David Bernstein, who gives this test all the time, to administer the test to us.
因此，我们请了一位法医心理学家戴维·伯恩斯坦博士（Dr. David Bernstein）来为我们进行这项测试，他一直在进行这项测试。
He took us each into a room, gave us about an hour of questions.
他把我们每人带进一个房间，问了我们大约一个小时的问题。
As a child, did you get into a lot of fights?
小时候，你经常打架吗？
I would say beat up more than got into-- [LAUGHTER]
我想说的是，挨打比陷入——[笑声]
When you were young, did you ever do rowdy things outside of school, like vandalize, break windows, set fires, hurt animals, or young children, anything like that?
当你年轻的时候，你是否曾在校外做过粗暴的事情，比如破坏、打破窗户、放火、伤害动物或小孩，诸如此类？
Steal?
偷？
No. There was a video that we watched in school that really warned me against it.
不。我们在学校看过的一段视频确实警告我不要这样做。
The one thing that I did do--
我所做的一件事——
Yes.
是的。
David Bernstein And what did you do after leaving high school?
大卫·伯恩斯坦 高中毕业后你做了什么？
I did an internship, actually, at National Public Radio, like all budding psychopaths.
事实上，我在国家公共广播电台实习过，就像所有崭露头角的精神病患者一样。
Now, to be clear, Dr. Bernstein gave us the shorter version of the psychopath test, and he was not as rigorous as he would have been with real potential psychopaths.
现在，需要明确的是，伯恩斯坦博士给了我们简短版本的精神病患者测试，他并不像对待真正的潜在精神病患者那样严格。
For instance, he didn't check police records to independently verify everything that each one of us said.
例如，他没有检查警方记录来独立核实我们每个人所说的一切。
Because, of course, we did not expect to find a psychopath on our staff.
当然，因为我们没想到我们的员工中会出现一个精神病患者。
Though, to be honest, it wasn't until Dr. Bernstein actually arrived at our office and started administering these things that we really, I think, all fully understood just how far gone a true psychopath is.
不过，说实话，直到伯恩斯坦博士真正来到我们的办公室并开始管理这些事情时，我认为我们才真正完全理解真正的精神病患者已经走了多远。
He explained to us a psychopath has no empathy at all, no sense of mercy, no conscience.
他向我们解释说，精神病患者根本没有同理心，没有怜悯心，没有良心。
They don't experience love.
他们没有经历过爱情。
They could tell you what these things mean, particularly the smarter ones, the brighter ones.
他们可以告诉你这些东西意味着什么，尤其是那些更聪明、更聪明的人。
They could even, the brighter ones, will learn to fake it.
他们甚至可能，更聪明的人，会学会假装它。
But they could not experience it.
但他们无法体验。
But you work with people all the time.
但你一直与人一起工作。
Think of any group of people that you know well.
想想你熟悉的任何一群人。
Friends, relatives, your state's congressional delegation.
朋友们、亲戚们、你们州的国会代表团。
And sometimes you see them and the thought crosses your mind, OK, this person isn't a psychopath, but there's tendencies.
有时你看到他们，你的脑海中就会闪过这样的想法，好吧，这个人不是精神病患者，但有倾向。
There's a little note of something.
有一个小记事。
And, of the people on the staff who took the test-- that's Julie, Jonathan, me, Sarah, Jane, Ben, Robyn, and Nancy-- we all did have our suspicions.
而且，在参加测试的工作人员中——朱莉、乔纳森、我、莎拉、简、本、罗宾和南希——我们确实都有怀疑。
So why were you in there for two hours, Robyn?
那么你为什么要在那里呆两个小时呢，罗宾？
Yeah, why were you in there for two hours?
是啊，你为什么在里面待了两个小时？
I don't know.
我不知道。
There's a lot of questions.
有很多问题。
There's so many questions.
有很多问题。
He told me that you were actually a bit transgressive, more than others.
他告诉我，你其实比其他人有点越轨。
Really?
真的吗？
Sarah Koenig Yes.
莎拉·柯尼格 是的。
He said that coming out.
他说出来了。
Robyn, yes.
罗宾，是的。
Robyn was more rebellious than those.
罗宾比那些人更加叛逆。
Yeah, he did say that.
是的，他确实这么说过。
Julie Snyder Wow, really?
朱莉·斯奈德 哇，真的吗？
Yeah, he did say that, but-- Ira Glass The test, if you want to know, asks about your family, whether you've been in love, your favorite and least favorite things about love, what kind of employee you are, plus these general questions that really make you think about what a psychopath is.
是的，他确实这么说过，但是——艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 如果你想知道的话，这个测试会询问你的家庭情况、你是否谈过恋爱、关于爱情你最喜欢和最不喜欢的事情、你是什么样的员工，再加上这些真正让你思考什么是精神病患者的一般性问题。
Like, have you done crazy or dangerous things for fun?
比如，你是否为了好玩做过疯狂或危险的事情？
Do you think people are easy to con or manipulate?
你认为人们容易被欺骗或操纵吗？
Do people tell you-- this one's sort of scary-- do people tell you that you have a bad temper?
人们是否告诉你——这有点可怕——人们是否告诉你你脾气不好？
But a surprisingly large part of the questionnaires is about things that you did when you were a kid, when you were a teenager.
但令人惊讶的是，调查问卷的很大一部分是关于你小时候、十几岁的时候做过的事情。
So Robyn, with the stuff that she did in high school, seemed like she might score at least a couple points.
所以罗宾，凭借她在高中所做的事情，看起来她至少可以得到几分。
And so did Jane.
简也是如此。
Jane had run-ins with the law as a teenager.
简在青少年时期曾触犯过法律。
Here's how she answered Dr. Bernstein when he asked, how would your teachers describe your behavior in high school?
当伯恩斯坦博士问你的老师如何描述你在高中时的行为时，她是这样回答的。
Rebellious, irresponsible.
叛逆、不负责任。
David Bernstein Underachiever?
大卫·伯恩斯坦成绩不佳？
Yeah.
是的。
Because I could have done a lot better.
因为我本可以做得更好。
I'm sure they thought that.
我确信他们是这么想的。
A's, and then over time, D's.
A，然后随着时间的推移，D。
Yeah, to where I quit, basically, because I was failing all of my classes, and I didn't want to be there anyway.
是的，基本上我辞职了，因为我所有的课程都不及格，而且我也不想在那里。
So, when we were all sitting around talking after we took the test, still waiting to get our scores, talking about whether we had been nervous taking it, there was one more person besides Jane and Robyn that everybody thought might score at least a couple points on the psychopath scale.
所以，当我们在参加考试后坐在一起聊天，仍在等待分数，谈论我们是否在考试中感到紧张时，除了简和罗宾之外，还有一个人，每个人都认为她可能在精神病患者量表上至少得分几分。
Who do you guys think is going to have the highest score?
小伙伴们你们觉得谁会获得最高分呢？
Yes.
是的。
Julie Snyder Well, wait.
朱莉·斯奈德 好吧，等等。
So, Ira, wait.
所以，艾拉，等等。
Were you nervous?
你紧张吗？
I am nervous for you.
我为你感到紧张。
Julie Snyder Me, too.
朱莉·斯奈德 我也是。
I think I'm nervous.
我想我很紧张。
Well, today on our radio show, what it is in me that the people I work with see as possibly psychopathic.
好吧，今天在我们的广播节目中，与我一起工作的人认为我可能有精神病。
And two of our favorite contributors, Alix Spiegel and the very funny Jon Ronson, each has been spending lots of time investigating the psychopath test, figuring out what it can tell us and what it cannot tell us.
我们最喜欢的两位贡献者，阿利克斯·斯皮格尔（Alix Spiegel）和非常有趣的乔恩·罗森（Jon Ronson），每个人都花了很多时间研究精神病测试，弄清楚它可以告诉我们什么，不能告诉我们什么。
It's a test that's used in criminal justice systems all over the world.
这是世界各地刑事司法系统中使用的一项测试。
They explain why that may be worrisome.
他们解释了为什么这可能令人担忧。
That, and of course, our scores.
那，当然还有我们的分数。
Who on our staff scored the highest on the psychopath test, me, Jane, Robyn, or some yet-to-be-named dark horse?
我们的员工中谁在精神病测试中得分最高，是我、简、罗宾，还是某个尚未命名的黑马？
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
The psychopath test that we're talking about all this hour is used by prisons, and by courtrooms.
我们一直在谈论的精神病测试是监狱和法庭使用的。
And the questions on the test are supposed to measure whether you have any of the traits on this checklist of 20 traits that scientists have observed in psychopaths.
测试中的问题旨在衡量您是否具有科学家在精神病患者身上观察到的 20 种特征清单中的任何特征。
Lack of remorse, impulsivity, failure to take responsibility for your actions, pathological lying, sexual promiscuity.
缺乏悔恨、冲动、不为自己的行为负责、病态的谎言、性乱七八糟。
And because it's a checklist, sometimes people just call the test "the checklist," though sometimes they call it by its formal name, the PCL-R, which stands for Psychopathy Check List Revised.
因为它是一个检查表，所以有时人们只是将测试称为“检查表”，尽管有时他们用其正式名称 PCL-R 来称呼它，它代表精神病检查表修订版。
And to give you a sense of how the test is normally used, we have this story from Alix Spiegel.
为了让您了解该测试通常如何使用，我们听了 Alix Spiegel 的故事。
The day that sealed Robert Dixon's fate began with a bike ride.
决定罗伯特·迪克森命运的那一天是从一次骑自行车开始的。
Robert says it was still early morning when he asked his friend, a guy named John, to give him a ride home on the handlebars of his bike.
罗伯特说，当时还是清晨，他让他的朋友约翰骑自行车送他回家。
But he says John was already upset.
但他说约翰已经心烦意乱了。
John had gotten into a fight with his girlfriend.
约翰和他的女朋友吵架了。
He was jumpy and in a bad mood.
他很紧张，心情也很不好。
So when they passed a young man headed in the opposite direction, Dixon says John made a proposal.
因此，当他们经过一个朝相反方向走的年轻人时，迪克森说约翰提出了一个建议。
Let's rob him.
我们来抢劫他吧。
He said to me, he says, hey, let's see what this guy got.
他对我说，嘿，让我们看看这个家伙得到了什么。
I said, no, come on, man, just take me home.
我说，不，来吧，伙计，带我回家吧。
He says, no, come on, let's just-- this ain't gonna take that long.
他说，不，来吧，我们只是——这不会花那么长时间。
So he turns the bike, and I'm sitting on the handlebars.
于是他转动了自行车，我坐在车把上。
They caught up with the man, and Dixon jumped off the bike to act as lookout while John approached him, pulled out his gun, and asked for the guy's necklace.
他们追上了那个人，迪克森从自行车上跳下来充当了望，而约翰则走近他，拔出枪，要了那个人的项链。
Dixon could hear them arguing.
迪克森能听到他们在争吵。
The man didn't want to give it up.
男人不想放弃。
He said it was a gift.
他说这是一份礼物。
Now, my main concern at this time is that I don't want to get caught doing what we're doing.
现在，我现在主要担心的是我不想被抓到我们正在做的事情。
So I'm looking around.
所以我环顾四周。
I look at them.
我看着他们。
He's talking to him.
他正在跟他说话。
Again, I'm looking around to see if the cops or anybody see us out there doing what we're doing.
我再次环顾四周，看看警察或任何人是否看到我们在那里做我们正在做的事情。
And pow!
还有战俘！
The gun goes off.
枪响了。
What I saw, when I looked at my co-defendent, was shock, that he was in shock that he had just pulled that trigger.
当我看着我的同案被告时，我看到的是震惊，他对自己刚刚扣动扳机感到震惊。
And so, I said what happened?
所以我说发生了什么？
He looked at me and he didn't answer me.
他看着我，没有回答我。
He just ran.
他只是跑了。
In December of 1985, Robert Dixon got 15 years to life with a possibility of parole, for acting as an accessory to murder.
1985 年 12 月，罗伯特·迪克森 (Robert Dixon) 因参与谋杀罪被判处 15 年有期徒刑，并有可能假释。
Now, this was not Robert Dixon's first crime.
现在，这并不是罗伯特·迪克森的第一次犯罪。
There is no way to sugarcoat this.
没有办法粉饰这一点。
Robert Dixon was a delinquent.
罗伯特·迪克森是个罪犯。
As a teen, he was convicted of raping one woman, and beating another.
青少年时期，他因强奸一名妇女并殴打另一名妇女而被定罪。
Since childhood, in fact, Dixon's life had been deeply disturbed.
事实上，从童年起，狄克逊的生活就受到了深深的困扰。
He tried to commit suicide at 10, and at 12, threatened to kill himself and his father, who, according to records, often beat him.
10 岁时，他试图自杀，12 岁时，他威胁要杀死自己和他的父亲，据记录，他的父亲经常殴打他。
He was in and out of detention for the rest of his teens.
在他十几岁的剩余时间里，他一直在拘留所和监狱外。
That was his life before the crime.
这就是他案发前的生活。
I'm just living day for day.
我只是日复一日地活着。
I don't have a job.
我没有工作。
I've been kicked out of my home by my dad.
我被我爸爸赶出了家门。
He and I really not getting along.
我和他实在是合不来。
I'm ripping and running the streets.
我在街上撕扯和奔跑。
I was delinquent.
我违法了。
I was a lost person.
我是一个迷失的人。
I went to interview Robert Dixon in a maximum security prison in Vacaville, California.
我去加利福尼亚州瓦卡维尔的一所高度戒备的监狱采访了罗伯特·迪克森。
26 years later, he is still in prison for his crime.
26年后，他仍因犯罪而入狱。
I went to see him because I wanted to understand who Robert Dixon is today.
我去见他是因为我想了解罗伯特·迪克森今天是谁。
In the days before our meeting, I talked to a small army of his friends and family, all of whom felt, deep in their hearts, that they knew Robert Dixon, and that the man they knew was completely changed, that he was no longer a threat to anyone and was ready for parole.
在我们见面的前几天，我与他的一小群朋友和家人交谈，他们都在内心深处感到他们认识罗伯特·迪克森，他们认识的这个人已经完全改变了，他不再对任何人构成威胁，并准备好假释。
Here's Dixon's father, the man Robert once threatened to kill.
这是迪克森的父亲，罗伯特曾经威胁要杀死他。
I've seen him change in the last 10 years, drastic change in him, especially with me.
在过去的十年里，我看到他发生了巨大的变化，尤其是我的变化。
He got older and he kind of slowed down, and I got older and I slowed down.
他变老了，他的脚步放慢了，我也变老了，我的脚步也放慢了。
Age change everybody.
年龄改变每个人。
Now, Dixon Senior says this transformation didn't happen quickly.
现在，迪克森高级说这种转变并没有很快发生。
He says for a time even after his son went to prison, he was still impulsive, still hard.
他说，有一段时间，即使在儿子入狱后，他仍然很冲动，仍然很坚强。
Robert's early years behind bars were riddled with 115's.
罗伯特入狱的早年充满了 115 的痛苦。
That's prison speak for rules violations.
这是监狱里对违反规则的言论。
And the stories he would hear from Robert were always about fights.
他从罗伯特那里听到的故事总是关于打架的。
But about 12 years ago, he says, the narrative began to shift.
但他说，大约 12 年前，情况开始发生转变。
You know, he'd tell me about a lot of incidents that would come up and he would avoid them.
你知道，他会告诉我很多会发生的事件，但他会避免它们。
You could have it your way, and walk away.
你可以随心所欲，然后走开。
He knows that if he's going to get there, he's got to be twice as disciplined.
他知道，如果他要实现这一目标，就必须加倍遵守纪律。
He's got to do things above and beyond.
他必须做一些超越自己的事情。
And, quite frankly, he has.
而且，坦率地说，他做到了。
This is Dixon's best friend, Bob Stuart.
这是迪克森最好的朋友鲍勃·斯图尔特。
Like Dixon's father, when I went to visit Bob, he regaled me with stories of Dixon's transformation.
就像迪克森的父亲一样，当我去拜访鲍勃时，他给我讲了迪克森转变的故事。
And this change, Bob said, wasn't simply a matter of getting older and mellowing.
鲍勃说，这种变化不仅仅是变老和成熟的问题。
Dixon, he said, had worked at it, worked at it hard.
他说，迪克森已经为此付出了努力，而且非常努力。
Bob brought out a folder with copies of Dixon's various certificates, from business courses, from self-help seminars, a thick stack documenting hours logged in a quest for change.
鲍勃拿出一个文件夹，里面有迪克森的各种证书副本，包括商业课程、自助研讨会的证书，还有厚厚一叠记录在寻求改变的过程中的时间。
Stuart comes from a very different background than Dixon.
斯图尔特的背景与迪克森截然不同。
He's a successful engineer who was introduced by a friend who met Dixon in prison and thought that Dixon could use a mentor.
他是一位成功的工程师，经一位朋友介绍，在监狱里认识了迪克森，并认为迪克森需要一位导师。
And at first, Stuart was just that, a mentor.
起初，斯图尔特只是一位导师。
But 16 years later, it's clear that that has changed.
但 16 年后，情况显然已经发生了变化。
I mean, I consider him my best friend, and likewise.
我的意思是，我认为他是我最好的朋友，同样。
And hard to believe that somebody inside prison would be.
很难相信监狱里有人会这样。
And I have good friends, but he's the person I trust absolutely.
我有很好的朋友，但他是我绝对信任的人。
Dixon's goal, Stuart told me, was not just to get out of prison, but once out, to do good.
斯图尔特告诉我，迪克森的目标不仅仅是出狱，而且一旦出狱，就要做善事。
Dixon says the same.
迪克森也这么说。
I'm not proud of my life.
我并不为自己的生活感到骄傲。
I've hurt people.
我伤害过人。
I've disappointed myself.
我对自己很失望。
I've ruined my life.
我毁了我的生活。
And I'm doing everything that I can to salvage some part of the second half of my life.
我正在尽我所能来挽救我后半生的某些部分。
So, yeah.
所以，是的。
I'm trying to turn it around.
我正在努力扭转局面。
So that's the way that Robert Dixon's friends and family see him, a man once bad, deeply reformed.
这就是罗伯特·迪克森的朋友和家人对他的看法，一个曾经很坏但已经彻底改过自新的人。
But there's another view of Robert Dixon.
但罗伯特·迪克森还有另一种观点。
Dr. Peter Bradley is a psychologist in California who does forensic evaluations.
彼得·布拉德利博士是加利福尼亚州的一名心理学家，从事法医评估。
And when I went to visit him, he showed me a stapled report with Dixon's name on top.
当我去拜访他时，他给我看了一份装订好的报告，上面写着迪克森的名字。
The report was a psychological evaluation done by another psychologist, a psychologist employed by the state.
该报告是另一位心理学家（国家雇用的心理学家）所做的心理评估。
This is the main report that was done through the prison system.
这是通过监狱系统完成的主要报告。
You see, in California, before a lifer, like Dixon, goes in front of a parole board, they're given a psychological evaluation by a state psychologist.
你看，在加利福尼亚州，像迪克森这样的无期徒刑犯在假释委员会面前之前，州心理学家会对他们进行心理评估。
And as part of these evaluations, the prisoner is given a test to determine if they're a psychopath.
作为这些评估的一部分，囚犯会接受测试以确定他们是否是精神病患者。
All lifers up for parole in California are given the PCL-R.
所有在加州申请假释的无期徒刑犯都会获得 PCL-R。
Now, I want to say here that I did ask the California Department of Corrections to talk to me about Dixon's test.
现在，我想说的是，我确实要求加州惩教署与我讨论迪克森的测试。
But they said no. Dr. Bradley, however, had reviewed Dixon's testing, and read to me from the report.
但他们说不。然而，布拉德利博士审查了迪克森的测试，并向我朗读了报告。
Mr. Dixon obtained a total score on the PCL-R which placed him in the high range of the clinical construct of psychopathy.
Dixon 先生在 PCL-R 上获得了总分，这使他处于精神病临床结构的高范围内。
He scored higher than 73% of those offenders on this instrument.
他在该工具上的得分高于 73% 的罪犯。
That's very technical, probably hard to understand.
这是非常技术性的，可能很难理解。
What it means is this, that the psychologist saw Dixon not as a man reformed, but basically as a psychopath, as someone cold and remorseless, incapable of empathy, manipulative, narcissistic, impulsive, and therefore, as a person, likely bound by his very nature to do further violence.
这意味着，心理学家认为狄克逊不是一个改造过的人，而是基本上是一个精神病患者，一个冷酷无情、没有同理心、善于操纵、自恋、冲动的人，因此，作为一个人，他的本性很可能会进一步实施暴力。
And it was really in large part because of his score on this test that Dixon was determined to be too high a risk and was denied parole at his last hearing.
很大程度上，正是由于迪克森在这次测试中的得分，迪克森被确定风险过高，并在上次听证会上被拒绝假释。
So which Robert Dixon is the real Robert Dixon, the one the test sees, or the one that his friends and family see?
那么哪个罗伯特·迪克森才是真正的罗伯特·迪克森，是测试中看到的那个，还是他的朋友和家人看到的那个呢？
To answer that question, you need to understand more about the test, the man who created it, and how it came to have so much power.
要回答这个问题，您需要更多地了解该测试、创建它的人以及它如何拥有如此强大的力量。
[SINGING] So, what?
[唱歌] 那么，什么？
A classroom of people watches this video?
教室里的人都看这个视频？
No, maybe a couple.
不，也许是一对。
Alix Spiegel This is taped from one of more than 1,000 interviews collected by the creator of the PCL-R, the Canadian psychologist, Robert Hare.
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔 (Alix Spiegel) 这是 PCL-R 的创建者、加拿大心理学家罗伯特·黑尔 (Robert Hare) 收集的 1,000 多份访谈中的一份录音。
All of the interviews are with prisoners, many of whom, like this man, are psychopaths.
所有采访都是针对囚犯，其中许多人像这个人一样，都是精神病患者。
Anyway, I was going on about justifiable murder.
无论如何，我一直在谈论正当谋杀。
Someone rapes your wife, molests your kid.
有人强奸你的妻子，猥亵你的孩子。
And then a guy's got to do that.
然后一个人必须这样做。
If he doesn't-- that's just the way it goes.
如果他不这样做——那就是这样。
An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.
以眼还眼，以牙还牙。
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil, for I pack a .357 Magnum.
是的，虽然我走过死亡阴影的山谷，但我不会害怕任何邪恶，因为我带着一把 .357 Magnum。
I visited Hare at his home in Canada, and together we watched videos like this for hours, psychopath after psychopath, one after another.
我拜访了哈尔在加拿大的家，我们一起看了几个小时这样的视频，一个又一个精神病患者，一个又一个。
I've got so much great stuff in here.
我这里有很多很棒的东西。
This guy's terrific.
这家伙太棒了
He's part of the New York mob.
他是纽约黑帮的一员。
I was upset that he didn't want to pay me the money.
我很生气他不想付钱给我。
He had the nerve.
他有勇气。
Hare would play some tape, then stop and talk about language use and psychopaths, or pain and psychopaths.
野兔会播放一些磁带，然后停下来谈论语言的使用和精神病患者，或者疼痛和精神病患者。
And as he watched, there was always this glimmer in his eye.
而他看着的时候，眼中始终闪烁着这样的光芒。
It was impossible to ignore the pleasure he got from watching them.
不可能忽视他从观看它们中获得的乐趣。
Oh, that's gas pains.
哦，那是气痛。
In spite of the fact that I've been in this game for a long time, I'm still-- it's a source of amazement.
尽管我已经玩这个游戏很长时间了，但我仍然——它是一个令人惊讶的来源。
Hare has been in this game a long time.
野兔参与这个游戏已经很长时间了。
He began studying psychopaths in the 1960s.
他在 20 世纪 60 年代开始研究精神病患者。
And it's easy to forget now, in part because Hare's work has made the idea of the psychopath so commonplace, but back then, research on psychopaths was totally obscure.
现在很容易忘记，部分原因是黑尔的工作使精神病患者的想法变得如此普遍，但在当时，对精神病患者的研究完全是晦涩难懂的。
And no one, least of all Bob Hare, thought that this work on psychopaths would ever have any practical applications.
没有人，尤其是鲍勃·黑尔，认为这项针对精神病患者的研究会有任何实际应用。
What Bob was interested in was basic science.
鲍勃感兴趣的是基础科学。
He wanted to understand what made psychopaths tick.
他想了解是什么让精神病患者产生了反应。
To figure this out, he went to a place he figured he'd find at least some psychopaths, a prison 30 miles away from his office at the University of British Columbia.
为了弄清楚这一点，他去了一个他认为至少能找到一些精神病患者的地方，距离他在不列颠哥伦比亚大学的办公室 30 英里的一所监狱。
And he asked the prisoners for their help.
他向囚犯寻求帮助。
And the offenders in those days had hardly ever been studied.
那时的罪犯几乎没有被研究过。
They were very interested in what I was doing.
他们对我所做的事情非常感兴趣。
And they would all volunteer, and, in fact, one of the head inmates there, the one at the very top of the heap, actually held a public address.
他们都会自愿参加，事实上，其中一位头号囚犯，也就是最上面的那个，实际上举行了一次公开演讲。
In those days, they could congregate in groups of 400 or 500.
那时，它们可以400或500人为一组聚集在一起。
And said, look, this sounds interesting.
并说，看，这听起来很有趣。
I'm in.
我进来了
And everybody else then said, we're in, too.
然后其他人都说，我们也加入了。
So Hare set up a lab and started pumping out studies.
因此黑尔建立了一个实验室并开始进行研究。
For example, Hare would place the prisoners in a chair, tell them that in 30 seconds, he was going to zap them with an electrical shock, then measure their heart rate to see if that information bothered them.
例如，黑尔会将囚犯放在椅子上，告诉他们 30 秒后，他将用电击击打他们，然后测量他们的心率，看看该信息是否困扰他们。
Most showed lots of emotional arousal, anticipatory fear, anxiety, while they're waiting for the shock to occur.
大多数人在等待电击发生时表现出大量的情绪激动、预期的恐惧、焦虑。
Psychopaths, hardly any.
精神病患者，几乎没有。
In another experiment, Hare showed the prisoners both highly emotional and totally neutral pictures-- a picture of a rape, say, versus the picture of a chair-- and again measured their physical response.
在另一项实验中，黑尔向囚犯展示了高度情绪化和完全中性的图片——比如一张强奸的图片和一张椅子的图片——并再次测量了他们的身体反应。
He found that, for most prisoners, the emotional pictures prompted a very different reaction than the pictures of a table or chair.
他发现，对于大多数囚犯来说，情感图片引起的反应与桌子或椅子的图片截然不同。
But with psychopaths, there's no difference.
但对于精神病患者来说，没有什么区别。
They treat these horrific pictures as if they were neutral pictures.
他们将这些可怕的图片视为中性图片。
No difference, whatsoever, between them.
他们之间没有任何区别。
And over the course of these experiments, Hare developed a theory.
在这些实验的过程中，黑尔发展出了一种理论。
He believed that the psychopaths he saw were, essentially, emotionally deaf, simply did not have the capacity to feel, in a first-hand way, emotions like empathy, remorse, and love.
他认为他所看到的精神病患者本质上是情感上的聋子，根本没有能力以第一手的方式感受同理心、悔恨和爱等情感。
It's sort of like trying to explain to a color blind person what the color red is.
这有点像试图向色盲者解释红色是什么。
Can we teach a color blind person how to see red, what red is?
我们可以教色盲者如何看到红色吗？什么是红色？
You can have all the dictionary definitions you want, but this person will never quite get it.
你可以拥有所有你想要的字典定义，但这个人永远不会完全明白。
Now, this work was basically well received.
现在，这部作品基本上受到了好评。
But Hare says there was still a huge amount of skepticism.
但黑尔表示，仍然存在很大的怀疑。
Part of the problem stemmed from the fact that this field of research, psychopathy research, was lacking one very important ingredient.
部分问题源于这样一个事实，即精神病研究这一研究领域缺乏一个非常重要的成分。
You see, in science, before you can do practically anything, there is one thing you absolutely, positively, have to get straight.
你看，在科学中，在你能做任何实际事情之前，有一件事你必须绝对、积极地搞清楚。
The key is measurement.
关键是测量。
Science cannot progress without reliable and accurate measurement of what it is they're trying to study.
如果没有对他们想要研究的内容进行可靠和准确的测量，科学就无法进步。
Simple as that.
就这么简单。
To understand this, consider for a moment the blood pressure cuff.
为了理解这一点，请考虑一下血压袖带。
Hare says before the blood pressure cuff was invented in 1881, doctors had no good way of figuring out if someone had high blood pressure or low blood pressure, which meant they couldn't figure out that high blood pressure was related to heart attacks, and all sorts of seriously unfortunate things.
Hare 说，在 1881 年血压袖带发明之前，医生没有很好的方法来确定某人是否患有高血压或低血压，这意味着他们无法确定高血压与心脏病发作以及各种严重不幸的事情有关。
Here, Hare concluded, was the problem with his field as well.
黑尔总结道，这也是他的领域的问题所在。
There was simply no way to measure.
根本没有办法测量。
We did not have the psychiatric equivalent of the blood pressure cuff.
我们没有与血压袖带同等的精神科设备。
And so, Hare decided to make one.
因此，黑尔决定制作一个。
He sat down with his long-term research assistant, and together they wrote down all of the personality traits that they and other scientists had consistently seen in the psychopaths they studied, traits like, well, like these, read by Hare and a former student of his, Steve Hart, who is now a leader in the field.
他和他的长期研究助理坐下来，一起写下了他们和其他科学家在他们研究的精神病患者身上一贯观察到的所有人格特征，比如黑尔和他以前的学生史蒂夫·哈特（Steve Hart）读过的这些特征，史蒂夫·哈特现在是该领域的领导者。
Egocentricity, grandiose sense of self-worth.
自我中心，浮夸的自我价值感。
Pathological lying, cunning, manipulative.
病态的说谎、狡猾、控制欲强。
Lack of sincerity, lack of remorse or guilt, lack of empathy.
缺乏真诚，缺乏悔恨或内疚，缺乏同理心。
Sensation seeking or proneness to boredom, failure to accept responsibility for own actions, and so forth.
寻求刺激或容易感到无聊、不为自己的行为承担责任等等。
Now, for each of these traits, Hare wrote up a little description so that people would know what he meant by, say, lack of empathy.
现在，黑尔对这些特征中的每一个都写了一些描述，以便人们知道他所说的缺乏同理心是什么意思。
Psychologists using the test were supposed to ask the interview subject a series of questions about their criminal history, their family, to determine whether the person had that quality.
使用该测试的心理学家应该向受访者询问一系列有关其犯罪史和家庭的问题，以确定此人是否具有这种品质。
Parasitic lifestyle.
寄生生活方式。
Alix Spiegel If the trait was present, they got a two.
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔（Alix Spiegel） 如果存在这种特征，他们就会得到 2 分。
Absent, they got a zero.
缺席，他们得了零分。
And if it wasn't really clear, they got a one.
如果还不太清楚，他们也有一个。
There were 20 traits to check, which is why Hare calls it the Check List, and at the end of the test, your score was totaled.
有 20 个特征需要检查，这就是 Hare 将其称为“检查表”的原因，在测试结束时，您的分数将被总计。
40 was the highest you could get, but anything over 30 certified you as a psychopath.
40 是你能得到的最高分数，但任何超过 30 的分数都证明你是精神病患者。
Voila, the PCL-R was born.
瞧，PCL-R 诞生了。
It was 1980.
那是1980年。
At his house, Hare pulled out an ancient-looking document.
在他的家里，黑尔拿出了一份看上去很古老的文件。
So this is literally it.
所以这就是字面上的意思。
Robert Hare This is it.
罗伯特·黑尔 就是这样。
This is the first thing that people saw.
这是人们首先看到的。
17 pages, double spaced.
17 页，双倍行距。
A certified diagnostic test, which at least appeared to be remarkably reliable.
经过认证的诊断测试，至少看起来非常可靠。
When two different testers gave the test to the same person, they usually got the same result.
当两个不同的测试人员对同一个人进行测试时，他们通常会得到相同的结果。
The PCL-R was on its way.
PCL-R 正在路上。
Kind of.
有点儿。
Actually, the only people really interested in his test at this point, in the early '80s, were other academic researchers.
事实上，在 80 年代初期，唯一真正对他的测试感兴趣的人是其他学术研究人员。
People in the criminal justice community still saw the study of psychopaths as marginal, irrelevant to understanding crime.
刑事司法界的人们仍然认为对精神病患者的研究是边缘的，与理解犯罪无关。
You see, at the time, criminal justice people thought about where crime came from in a very specific way.
你看，当时刑事司法人员以非常具体的方式思考犯罪从何而来。
Criminals were made, not born.
罪犯是后天形成的，而不是天生的。
Criminologists, sociologists, tended to explain crime in terms of environmental factors, where you were raised, who your family was, your peer group.
犯罪学家、社会学家倾向于用环境因素、你在哪里长大、你的家人是谁、你的同龄人群体来解释犯罪。
So in those days, social factors, environmental factors, were the explanation for all crime.
所以在那个时代，社会因素、环境因素，是所有犯罪的解释。
The idea was that anybody could be bad, or good.
这个想法是任何人都可能是坏人，也可能是好人。
It was all the environment.
这都是环境。
And Hare's focus on personality didn't really fit this zeitgeist.
黑尔对个性的关注并不真正符合这个时代精神。
But the disinterest of the criminal justice community changed almost overnight, after one of Hare's students, an undergrad, proposed to do a study.
但在黑尔的一名本科生提出进行一项研究后，刑事司法界的冷漠态度几乎在一夜之间发生了变化。
What the student wanted to do was see what happened to prisoners who had been tested after they were released from prison.
学生想做的是看看那些接受过检测的囚犯出狱后的情况如何。
Was a person with a high score on the PCL-R more likely to commit a crime than a person with a low score?
PCL-R 得分高的人是否比得分低的人更有可能犯罪？
Turns out, they were.
事实证明，他们是。
Bob Hare.
鲍勃·黑尔.
Those who had low scores on the PCL-R, about 20% or 25% would be reconvicted within four or five years.
那些在 PCL-R 上得分较低的人，大约有 20% 或 25% 会在四五年内被重新定罪。
The high group was 80%.
高组为80%。
So score high, and there was an 80% chance you would re-offend.
所以得分高的话，你有 80% 的机会会再次犯罪。
Score low, 20%.
分数低，20%。
In other words--
换句话说——
The checklist did an excellent job of predicting who would commit another offense within the next couple of years.
该清单很好地预测了未来几年内谁会再次犯罪。
How excellent a job?
工作有多优秀？
Robert Hare As good as one could get.
罗伯特·黑尔 尽其所能。
This was a huge finding.
这是一个巨大的发现。
For years, criminologists had labored to dissect the environmental causes of crime.
多年来，犯罪学家一直致力于剖析犯罪的环境原因。
Then, suddenly, here was the PCL-R, a personality test, used for marginal academic research, that appeared to identify the world's most serious chronic criminals, the people we really needed to worry about.
然后，突然出现了 PCL-R，一种用于边缘学术研究的性格测试，它似乎可以识别世界上最严重的慢性罪犯，我们真正需要担心的人。
Steve Hart, Bob's former student, says that everybody was shocked.
鲍勃以前的学生史蒂夫·哈特说，每个人都感到震惊。
Here we are, using a diagnosis of personality disorder to predict criminal behavior, and it's working.
我们现在利用人格障碍的诊断来预测犯罪行为，而且它正在发挥作用。
And it's working in a way that's obvious.
它的运作方式是显而易见的。
You could see the differences.
你可以看到差异。
An old psychologist, Jacob Cohen, called this the intraocular effect, like it just really hit you between the eyes.
一位老心理学家雅各布·科恩（Jacob Cohen）将其称为眼内效应，就像它真的击中了你的两眼之间一样。
The paper was first publicized in the mid-'80s, and people in the criminal justice community quickly came calling.
该论文于 80 年代中期首次发表，很快受到刑事司法界人士的关注。
For example, Steve Hart remembers that shortly after the paper went public, the lab got a visit from Canada's National Parole Board.
例如，史蒂夫·哈特（Steve Hart）记得，论文公开后不久，加拿大国家假释委员会就到访了该实验室。
They wanted the test.
他们想要测试。
They said, quite literally, what we want to do is give everybody this test, and then have the test score written in big red numbers on the front of the file.
他们说，毫不夸张地说，我们要做的就是给每个人都进行这个测试，然后将测试分数用大红色数字写在文件的前面。
No parole board should be able to make a decision without having some knowledge about whether or not somebody is psychopathic.
如果不了解某人是否患有精神病，任何假释委员会都不应做出决定。
I think most of the researchers in the room were horrified, that, no, we don't want that.
我认为房间里的大多数研究人员都感到震惊，不，我们不希望这样。
Adelle Forth is another researcher who worked in the lab.
阿黛尔·福斯 (Adelle Forth) 是该实验室的另一位研究员。
The idea that you would just stamp something on someone's file would be horrific, because this label, someone is a psychopath, this will stay with this individual.
你只是在某人的档案上盖上某些东西的想法会很可怕，因为这个标签，某人是精神病患者，这将留在这个人身上。
This is not something that will go away.
这不会消失。
In fact, every researcher that I spoke to who was there at first found this idea of parole boards using the test deeply disturbing, including the guy who invented the thing, Robert Hare.
事实上，我采访过的每一位最初在场的研究人员都发现假释委员会使用该测试的想法深感不安，包括发明这个东西的罗伯特·黑尔(Robert Hare)。
The potential for misuse of an instrument that has solid scientific credentials is very great.
具有可靠科学依据的仪器被滥用的可能性非常大。
And the reason is, people say, well, it's got solid scientific credentials.
人们说，原因是它有可靠的科学依据。
It's really, really good.
真的非常非常好。
It must be good.
一定很好。
So my apprehensions were there from the very, very beginning, about the potential for misuse.
因此，我从一开始就担心可能会被滥用。
And so, at least initially after the criminal justice people came calling, Hare was clear.
因此，至少在刑事司法人员打来电话后，黑尔的态度是清楚的。
Hare said they weren't getting his test.
黑尔说他们没有接受他的测试。
Steve Hart.
史蒂夫·哈特。
I'm never giving the checklist to somebody who works in the criminal justice system.
我绝不会把清单交给在刑事司法系统工作的人。
I'm just going to give it to scientists who do nothing, as opposed to people who actually try to make decisions.
我只是把它交给那些什么都不做的科学家，而不是那些真正试图做出决定的人。
And we actually had a lot of value or moral discussions about that, about would it be appropriate to withhold the information from people who might try to use it?
事实上，我们对此进行了很多价值或道德讨论，讨论是否应该向可能尝试使用该信息的人隐瞒这些信息？
And so, for many years, Hare refused requests from the criminal justice system.
因此，多年来，黑尔拒绝了刑事司法系统的请求。
But Hart says Hare's students argued with him, told him that this was simply not his choice to make, that scientists don't really have a right to withhold knowledge once that knowledge exists.
但哈特说，黑尔的学生与他争论，告诉他这根本不是他的选择，一旦知识存在，科学家就没有权利保留知识。
Like, you know, come on, buddy.
就像，你知道，来吧，伙计。
Free it up.
释放它。
If you've got something important, then let's let everybody take a look at this.
如果你有什么重要的事情，那么就让大家看看吧。
Eventually, Hare agreed, and in 1991 he published the PCL-R officially, so that anyone could use it, including people in the criminal justice system, which is how the test ended up being used in America, on people like Robert Dixon.
最终，Hare 同意了，并于 1991 年正式发布了 PCL-R，以便任何人都可以使用它，包括刑事司法系统中的人员，这就是该测试最终在美国用于像 Robert Dixon 这样的人的原因。
I remember reading the report, and feeling heartbroken.
我记得读过这份报告，感到心碎。
This is Charles Carbone, Robert Dixon's lawyer, talking about a day two years ago, when Robert's psychological report arrived in the mail.
这是罗伯特·迪克森的律师查尔斯·卡本 (Charles Carbone) 谈论两年前的一天，当时罗伯特的心理报告收到邮件。
I knew, no matter how hard I worked from that day forward, that when I brought him back to board, we were going to get denied.
我知道，无论从那天起我多么努力，当我把他带回董事会时，我们都会被拒绝。
The political reality, Carbone says, is this.
卡本说，政治现实就是这样。
In California, not only the board, but the governor must sign off on every parole granted.
在加利福尼亚州，不仅是委员会，而且州长也必须在每项假释批准上签字。
And there's just no benefit to being seen as soft on crime.
被视为对犯罪软弱毫无好处。
So if a psychologist gives a bad report because of a high score on the psychopath test, even if the board or the governor wanted to set that person free, there is, as Carbone points out, no political cover if the prisoner re-offends.
因此，如果一名心理学家因为精神病测试得分高而给出了一份糟糕的报告，即使董事会或州长想要释放该人，正如卡本指出的那样，如果囚犯再次犯罪，也没有政治掩护。
The headline will be, well, the psychologist told you so.
标题将是，嗯，心理学家告诉你的。
There is no political upside.
没有政治上的好处。
They only have something to lose by allowing these lifers to go home.
让这些无期徒刑者回家只会让他们失去一些东西。
Which is why so few people with Robert Dixon's test scores ever do go home.
这就是为什么像罗伯特·迪克森那样的考试成绩的人很少能回家。
Still, Carbone is trying to fight it.
尽管如此，卡本仍在努力与之抗争。
He hired Dr. Peter Bradley, the forensic psychologist you heard from earlier, who evaluated Dixon, and like his friends and family, concluded that he is not a psychopath.
他聘请了你之前听说过的法医心理学家彼得·布拉德利博士，他对迪克森进行了评估，并像他的朋友和家人一样得出结论，他不是一个精神病患者。
That he has developed, among other things, a sense of caring and ability to be compassionate with other people, that he's matured in that way.
除其他外，他已经发展出一种关心他人的意识和对他人富有同情心的能力，他在这方面已经成熟了。
Dr. Bradley says, in general, he doesn't like to use the PCL-R, because he feels the scoring of the test is determined too much by events in the past that prisoners can't change, by juvenile delinquency, and things that happened in school, an inmate's criminal past, not who they are today.
布拉德利博士说，总的来说，他不喜欢使用PCL-R，因为他觉得测试的分数过多地取决于囚犯无法改变的过去事件、青少年犯罪、学校里发生的事情、囚犯的犯罪过去，而不是他们今天的身份。
It's weighted more toward the historical factors.
它更注重历史因素。
It's not able to look at factors that can change and that do tend to change with a lot of people.
它无法看到可以改变的因素，而且这些因素确实会随着很多人的改变而改变。
This is what Dr. Bradley thinks has happened to Robert Dixon.
布拉德利博士认为这就是发生在罗伯特·迪克森身上的事情。
He thinks Dixon's changed substantially, but will always get a high score because Dixon had a long criminal record before he went to prison.
他认为迪克森的变化很大，但总是会得到高分，因为迪克森入狱前有很长的犯罪记录。
As for Dixon, he doesn't know why he's doing so badly.
至于迪克森，他不知道自己为什么表现得这么糟糕。
He says his friends and family don't understand either.
他说他的朋友和家人也不理解。
They keep asking him what's happening.
他们不断地问他发生了什么事。
What are you going to here saying to these people?
你要在这里对这些人说什么？
I says, hey, I'm talking to them just like I'm talking to you.
我说，嘿，我和他们说话就像和你说话一样。
I'm not switching up here.
我不在这里换。
This is not Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.
这不是化身博士和海德先生。
I don't know what's going on.
我不知道发生了什么事。
Now, obviously, Dixon's friends and family could be wrong.
现在，显然迪克森的朋友和家人可能是错的。
Robert Dixon could be a psychopath.
罗伯特·迪克森可能是一个精神病患者。
But I will tell you that in recent years, use of the test in the criminal justice system has come under criticism.
但我要告诉你的是，近年来，在刑事司法系统中使用该测试受到了批评。
And you know who's one of the people criticizing?
你知道谁是批评者之一吗？
Robert Hare.
罗伯特·黑尔.
He tells me that some of his initial fears about how the test might be misused have actually come to pass.
他告诉我，他最初担心测试可能会被滥用的一些担忧实际上已经成为现实。
I feel ambivalent about it.
我对此感到矛盾。
Alix Spiegel You see, while Hare's a strong believer that his test works well for the basic lab research that it was originally designed for, he, like others, has begun to wonder if the test does as good a job outside the lab.
你看，虽然 Hare 坚信他的测试对于最初设计的基础实验室研究效果很好，但他和其他人一样，开始怀疑该测试在实验室之外是否也能发挥同样的作用。
Once you get into the real world, there does seem to be some lessening of reliability.
一旦你进入现实世界，可靠性似乎确实有所下降。
This is Daniel Murray, a professor at the University of Virginia.
我是丹尼尔·默里，弗吉尼亚大学教授。
About four years ago, Murray did a study which looked at what happened when a psychologist hired by the prosecution gave the test to the same prisoner as a psychologist hired by the defense.
大约四年前，默里做了一项研究，调查了检方聘请的心理学家与辩方聘请的心理学家对同一名囚犯进行测试时发生的情况。
Did those two psychologists give the same score to the same person?
这两位心理学家给同一个人打的分数是一样的吗？
The answer?
答案是什么呢？
Definitively no.
绝对不是。
10, 15, even 20 point score differences we found.
我们发现 10、15、甚至 20 分的分数差异。
And overall, there was about an eight-point difference in scores.
总体而言，分数相差大约八分。
In fact, in 2/3 of the cases, the scores were substantially different.
事实上，在 2/3 的案例中，分数有很大不同。
And the differences were not random.
而且这些差异并不是随机的。
Psychologists hired by the prosecution consistently scored people higher, found more psychopaths.
检方聘请的心理学家一直给人们打分较高，发现了更多的精神病患者。
Psychologists hired by the defense scored people lower, found fewer psychopaths, as you might expect.
正如你所预料的那样，辩方聘请的心理学家对人们的评分较低，发现的精神病患者也较少。
But there's something else which might explain these differences that Murray found.
但还有其他一些东西可以解释默里发现的这些差异。
There's no regulation of who can administer this test.
没有规定谁可以进行这项测试。
Hare tells me that he often does training in America, and says he frequently sees things that, frankly, horrify him: people without degrees in psychology using the test, poorly trained people using the test.
黑尔告诉我，他经常在美国接受培训，并说他经常看到一些坦率地说令他感到恐惧的事情：没有心理学学位的人使用该测试，未经训练的人使用该测试。
Many of these people have really no business doing this.
这些人中的许多人确实没有义务这样做。
It would be sort of like asking a nurse now to go out and start performing surgery.
这有点像现在要求护士出去开始进行手术。
It doesn't work this way.
这是行不通的。
It shouldn't work that way.
它不应该这样工作。
So I'm very concerned about the inappropriate, unprofessional use of this instrument for purposes that have serious implications for the individual and for society.
因此，我非常担心该工具被不恰当、不专业地用于对个人和社会产生严重影响的目的。
Do you think that, on an emotional level, like it's hard for you emotionally to think about your instrument having hurt somebody?
你是否认为，在情感层面上，你很难在情感上思考你的乐器伤害了某人？
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Interesting question.
有趣的问题。
Notice I didn't say that's a good question.
请注意，我并没有说这是一个好问题。
Interesting question.
有趣的问题。
Almost certainly.
几乎可以肯定。
I think about this periodically, and I probably try to suppress it.
我会定期思考这个问题，并且可能会试图压抑它。
Yeah, I do dissociate myself from it.
是的，我确实与它划清界限。
If I thought of every potential use or misuse of the instrument, I probably wouldn't sleep at all.
如果我想到该仪器的每一个潜在用途或误用，我可能根本无法入睡。
OK, are we going to the bedroom, or here stay?
好吧，我们是去卧室还是留在这里？
Of course, the friends and family of Robert Dixon are convinced that there's been a misuse of the test.
当然，罗伯特·迪克森的朋友和家人确信测试被滥用了。
And convinced, too, that that error will somehow miraculously be corrected.
并且还坚信这个错误会以某种方式奇迹般地得到纠正。
When I went to visit Robert's father at his home, he took me down a hallway and showed me a neatly prepared, fully equipped second bedroom.
当我去罗伯特的父亲家拜访时，他带我穿过走廊，带我参观了一间布置整齐、设施齐全的第二间卧室。
It was, he told me, for Robert.
他告诉我，这是给罗伯特的。
OK, this is his room.
好吧，这是他的房间。
There's a bed.
有一张床。
There's a closet.
有一个壁橱。
This would be his dresser.
这将是他的梳妆台。
As I said before, for most of their lives, these two men had grave difficulties.
正如我之前所说，这两个人一生的大部分时间都面临着严重的困难。
But now, every other Sunday, Dixon Senior goes to visit Dixon Junior in prison.
但现在，每隔一个星期天，老迪克森都会去监狱探望小迪克森。
They talk about what they're going to do when Robert gets out.
他们讨论罗伯特出来后要做什么。
They want to go fishing together.
他们想一起去钓鱼。
Dixon Senior already bought the gear.
老迪克森已经购买了装备。
And as I listen to them talk about these conversations and the relationship they have, it's hard to believe that it's a con, that it's cold-blooded manipulation.
当我听他们谈论这些对话和他们之间的关系时，很难相信这是一个骗局，这是冷血的操纵。
They seem very close, just as Robert seems very close to his best friend.
他们看起来非常亲密，就像罗伯特看起来和他最好的朋友非常亲密一样。
And I found myself wondering if a true psychopath could really have relationships like this.
我发现自己想知道一个真正的精神病患者是否真的可以拥有这样的关系。
Do you think you're going to get out of here?
你认为你会离开这里吗？
I hope so.
我希望如此。
I hope so.
我希望如此。
And I hope I can get out before my dad pass away.
我希望我能在我父亲去世之前离开。
Yeah, well, better hurry up.
是的，好吧，最好快点。
And I'll be here waiting for him.
而我会在这里等他。
Robert Dixon Junior has been incarcerated for being an accessory to murder for 26 years.
小罗伯特·迪克森 (Robert Dixon Junior) 因谋杀从犯而被监禁 26 年。
In 2014, he will have a new parole hearing.
2014 年，他将举行新的假释听证会。
If he goes to that hearing with his current score on the psychopath test, which he is slated to do, it's very likely that Robert Dixon will be denied.
如果他带着目前的精神病测试成绩参加听证会（他计划这样做），罗伯特·迪克森很可能会被拒绝。
Alix Spiegel.
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔。
She's a science correspondent for NPR News.
她是 NPR 新闻的科学记者。
Coming up, the positive side of being a psychopath.
接下来是作为一个精神病患者的积极的一面。
Jon Ronson on how being a psychopath can help you in your business.
乔恩·罗森 (Jon Ronson) 讲述精神变态者如何帮助您开展业务。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
This American Life.
这美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's show is all about the psychopath test, created by Bob Hare, used around the world by courtrooms, and prisons, and this week by us as well.
今天的节目主要是关于鲍勃·黑尔（Bob Hare）创建的精神病测试，该测试在世界各地的法庭和监狱中使用，本周我们也使用了该测试。
We took the test.
我们参加了测试。
We've arrived at Act Two of our show.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two, King of the Forest.
第二幕，森林之王。
Jon Ronson has a new book out about the psychopath test.
乔恩·罗森出版了一本关于精神病测试的新书。
In fact, that's the name of the book.
事实上，这就是这本书的名字。
It's called The Psychopath Test .
这就是所谓的精神病测试。
In his research, Jon met with Bob Hare, who created the test.
在他的研究中，乔恩遇到了创建该测试的鲍勃·黑尔（Bob Hare）。
He also went to a seminar, to learn to administer the test himself, which had an unfortunate effect on Jon.
他还参加了一个研讨会，学习自己进行测试，这对乔恩产生了不幸的影响。
He started seeing all kinds of people as psychopaths.
他开始将各种人视为精神病患者。
It really is everywhere if you start to look for it.
如果你开始寻找它，它确实无处不在。
Jon saw this statistic.
乔恩看到了这个统计数据。
1% of the general population tests as psychopath, 25% of the US prison population, which makes sense, I guess, and 4%-- 4%-- of business leaders.
1% 的普通人群被测试为精神病患者，25% 的美国监狱人口被测试为精神病患者，我猜这是有道理的，还有 4% 至 4% 的商界领袖被测试为精神病患者。
Ronson wondered if that could possibly be true, that so many business leaders might have psychopathic traits.
罗森想知道这是否可能是真的，如此多的商业领袖可能具有精神病态特征。
And so, he tried to find a business leader who might prove this true or false.
因此，他试图寻找一位商业领袖来证明这一点是真是假。
And then he learned about a former chief executive of Sunbeam, the toaster and appliance company.
然后他了解到烤面包机和电器公司 Sunbeam 的一位前首席执行官。
In the mid-1990s, Sunbeam was a mess.
20世纪90年代中期，Sunbeam一片混乱。
The board of directors needed a merciless cost-cutter.
董事会需要一位无情的成本削减者。
And so, they offered the job to someone quite unique, a man who seemed to actually, unlike most humans, enjoy firing people.
因此，他们将这份工作提供给了一个非常独特的人，这个人实际上与大多数人不同，喜欢解雇员工。
His name was Al Dunlap, and he'd made his reputation closing down plants on behalf of Scott, America's oldest toilet paper manufacturer.
他的名字叫阿尔·邓拉普 (Al Dunlap)，他因代表美国最古老的卫生纸制造商斯科特关闭工厂而声名鹊起。
There were countless stories of him going from Scott plant to Scott plant firing people in amusing, sometimes eerie ways.
有无数关于他从一个斯科特工厂到另一个斯科特工厂以有趣、有时甚至令人毛骨悚然的方式解雇员工的故事。
At a plant in Mobile, Alabama, for instance, he asked a man how long he'd worked there.
例如，在阿拉巴马州莫比尔的一家工厂，他问一名工人在那里工作了多久。
"30 years," the man proudly replied.
“三十年了。”男人自豪地回答。
"Why would you want to stay at a company for 30 years?" Dunlap said, looking genuinely perplexed.
“你为什么要在一家公司呆30年？”邓拉普说道，看上去确实很困惑。
A few weeks later, he closed the Mobile plant down, firing everyone.
几周后，他关闭了莫比尔工厂，解雇了所有人。
He fired people with such apparent glee, that the business magazine Fast Company included him in an article about potentially psychopathic CEOs.
他明显地让人们感到高兴，以至于商业杂志《快公司》将他收录在一篇关于潜在的精神变态首席执行官的文章中。
All the other CEOs cited were dead or in prison, and therefore unlikely to sue.
所有其他被引用的首席执行官都已死亡或入狱，因此不太可能提起诉讼。
But they took the plunge with Dunlap anyway.
但无论如何，他们还是选择了邓拉普。
They referred to his poor behavioral controls.
他们提到了他糟糕的行为控制。
His first wife charged in her divorce papers that he once threatened her with a knife and muttered that he always wondered what human flesh tasted like.
他的第一任妻子在离婚文件中指控他曾经用刀威胁她，并嘀咕说他总是想知道人肉的味道是什么。
Then there was his lack of empathy.
然后是他缺乏同理心。
Even though he was always telling journalists about his wise and supportive parents, he didn't turn up at either of their funerals.
尽管他总是向记者讲述他明智和支持的父母，但他没有出现在他们的葬礼上。
On the July 1996 day that Sunbeam's board of directors revealed the name of their new CEO, their share price skyrocketed, from $12.50 to $18.63.
1996 年 7 月，Sunbeam 董事会公布了新任首席执行官的名字，其股价从 12.50 美元飙升至 18.63 美元。
Dunlap went on a year-long rampage across rural America, firing 12,000 employees, and closing plants in Shubuta and Bay Springs and Laurel, Mississippi, and Cookeville, Tennessee, and Coushatta, Louisiana.
邓拉普在美国农村地区进行了长达一年的横扫，解雇了 12,000 名员工，并关闭了位于密西西比州舒布塔、贝斯普林斯、劳雷尔、田纳西州库克维尔和路易斯安那州库沙塔的工厂。
And on and on, turning communities across the American south into ghost towns.
如此周而复始，美国南部的社区变成了鬼城。
With each plant closure, the Sunbeam share price soared, reaching an incredible $51.00.
随着每家工厂的关闭，Sunbeam 的股价都飙升，达到令人难以置信的 51.00 美元。
I emailed his personal assistant-cum-bodyguard, Sean Thornton.
我给他的私人助理兼保镖肖恩·桑顿（Sean Thornton）发了电子邮件。
I said there's a theory shared by neurologists all over the world that the brains of certain highly successful people literally work differently to ordinary people's brains.
我说世界各地的神经学家都有一个共同的理论，即某些非常成功的人的大脑实际上与普通人的大脑工作方式不同。
It's basically all to do with the amygdala shooting signals of fear down to the central nervous system.
这基本上与杏仁核向中枢神经系统发射恐惧信号有关。
The theory goes that very highly successful people, like Mr. Dunlap, are literally fearless, because the amygdala doesn't shoot those signals.
该理论认为，像邓拉普先生这样非常成功的人实际上是无所畏惧的，因为杏仁核不会发出这些信号。
I didn't mention in the email that psychiatrists call that brain anomaly psychopathy.
我在电子邮件中没有提到精神科医生将这种大脑异常称为精神变态。
They said I was welcome to come over.
他们说欢迎我过来。
This first obviously strange thing about Al Dunlap's grand Florida mansion and lavish manicured lawns was the unusually large number of ferocious sculptures there were of predatory animals.
关于阿尔·邓拉普位于佛罗里达州的豪宅和修剪整齐的豪华草坪，第一个明显奇怪的事情是那里异常大量的凶猛掠食性动物雕塑。
They were everywhere.
他们无处不在。
Stone lions and panthers with teeth bared, eagles soaring downward, hawks with fish in their talons, and on and on, across the grounds, around the lake, in the swimming pool health club complex, in the many rooms.
龇牙咧嘴的石狮子和石豹，翱翔而下的鹰，爪子叼着鱼的老鹰，等等，在场地上，在湖边，在游泳池健身俱乐部大楼里，在许多房间里。
There were crystal lions, and onyx lions, and iron lions, and iron panthers, and paintings of lions, and sculptures of human skulls.
有水晶狮子、玛瑙狮子、铁狮子、铁豹、狮子画、人头骨雕塑。
"Lions," said Al Dunlap, showing me around.
“狮子，”艾尔·邓拉普边说边带我四处参观。
He's wearing a casual jacket and slacks, and looking tanned, healthy.
他穿着休闲夹克和休闲裤，看上去晒黑了，很健康。
His teeth were very white.
他的牙齿很白。
"Lions, jaguars, lions.
“狮子，美洲虎，狮子。
Always predators.
永远是掠夺者。
Predators, predators, predators.
掠夺者，掠夺者，掠夺者。
I have a great belief in and a great respect for predators.
我对掠夺者抱有极大的信念和极大的尊重。
Everything I did, I had to go make happen."
我所做的一切，我都必须去实现。”
Cunning, manipulative, I wrote in my reporter's note pad.
狡猾、善于操纵，我在记者的笔记本上写道。
This was ice and fire from the Bob Hare psychopath checklist.
这是鲍勃·黑尔精神病患者清单中的冰与火。
Al's statements may reveal a belief that the world is made up of predators and prey, that it would be foolish not to exploit weaknesses in others.
艾尔的言论可能揭示了一种信念，即世界是由掠夺者和猎物组成的，不利用他人的弱点是愚蠢的。
"Gold, too," I said.
“还有黄金，”我说。
"There's a lot of gold here, too," I'd been prepared for the gold, having recently seen a portrait of him sitting on a gold chair, wearing a gold tie with a gold suit of armor by the door, and a gold crucifix on the mantle piece.
“这里也有很多黄金，”我已经做好了黄金的准备，最近看到了一张他坐在金椅子上的肖像，系着金领带，门边有一套金盔甲，斗篷上有一个金十字架。
"Well," said Al.
“好吧，”艾尔说。
"Gold is shiny.
“金子是有光泽的。
Sharks." He pointed at a sculpture of four sharks encircling the planet.
鲨鱼。”他指着围绕着地球的四只鲨鱼的雕塑。
"I believe in predators," he said.
“我相信掠食者，”他说。
"Their spirits will enable you to succeed.
“他们的精神将使你成功。
Over there, you've got falcons, alligators, alligators, more alligators, tigers."
那边有猎鹰、短吻鳄、短吻鳄，还有更多的短吻鳄、老虎。”
"It's as if both Midas and also the Queen of Narnia were here," I said.
“就好像迈达斯和纳尼亚女王都在这里一样，”我说。
"And the Queen of Narnia flew above a particularly fierce zoo, and turned everything there to stone and then transported everything here."
“纳尼亚女王飞到了一个特别凶猛的动物园上空，把那里的一切都变成了石头，然后把一切都运到了这里。”
"No," he said.
“不，”他说。
"What did you just say?" He shot me a steely, blue-eyed stare which I found quite debilitating.
“你刚才说什么？”他用蓝眼睛冷酷地瞪了我一眼，我觉得这让我很虚弱。
"It was just a jumble of words," I said.
“这只是一堆乱七八糟的话，”我说。
"I was trying to make a funny comment, but it all became confused in my mouth."
“我本来想发表一个有趣的评论，但在我嘴里一切都变得混乱了。”
"Oh," said Al.
“哦，”艾尔说。
"Shall we get some iced tea?" he said.
“我们要喝点冰茶吗？”他说。
We gathered in the kitchen, Al, his wife, Judy, and Sean, the bodyguard.
我们聚集在厨房，艾尔、他的妻子朱迪和保镖肖恩。
I cleared my throat.
我清了清嗓子。
"You know, I said in my email that your amygdala might not shoot the requisite signals of fear to your central nervous system.
“你知道，我在电子邮件中说过，你的杏仁核可能不会向你的中枢神经系统发出必要的恐惧信号。
And that's perhaps why you've been so successful, and so interested in the predatory spirit," I said.
这也许就是为什么你如此成功，并对掠夺精神如此感兴趣，”我说。
"Yes," he said.
“是的，”他说。
"It's a fascinating theory.
“这是一个令人着迷的理论。
It's like Star Trek .
这就像《星际迷航》。
You're going where no man has gone before.
你要去的地方以前没有人去过。
Why are some people enormously successful, and others not at all?
为什么有些人取得了巨大成功，而另一些人却一事无成？
The kids I went to school with had a lot more privileges than me, but they're not successful.
和我一起上学的孩子们比我拥有更多的特权，但他们并不成功。
Why?
为什么？
What's different?
有什么不同？
Something's different.
有些东西不一样了。
It's a question that's been on people's minds for generations.
这是几代人一直在思考的问题。
And that's why, when you mentioned this amygdala thing, I thought, hmm, that's very interesting.
这就是为什么，当你提到杏仁核的事情时，我想，嗯，这非常有趣。
I'll talk to this fellow."
我会和这个家伙谈谈。”
"I have to tell you that some psychologists say that if this part of your brain doesn't work properly, it can actually make you--"
“我必须告诉你，一些心理学家说，如果你大脑的这一部分不能正常工作，它实际上会让你——”
"Mmm?" he said.
“嗯？”他说。
"Dangerous," I mumbled inaudibly.
“危险。”我小声嘀咕道。
I suddenly felt incredibly nervous.
我突然感到无比紧张。
"Dangerous," I said.
“危险，”我说。
There was a short silence.
一阵短暂的沉默。
"It can make you, " I took a breath, "a psychopath."
“它会让你，”我吸了一口气，“成为一个精神病患者。”
Al, Judy, and Sean, the bodyguard, stared at me for a long time.
艾尔、朱迪和保镖肖恩盯着我看了很久。
I was in over my head.
我有点不知所措。
What did I think I was doing?
我以为我在做什么？
I'm not a licensed medical professional or a scientist.
我不是有执照的医疗专业人员或科学家。
Nor, if I'm being honest with myself, am I actually a detective.
如果我对自己诚实的话，我实际上也不是一名侦探。
I blamed Bob Hare.
我责怪鲍勃·黑尔。
He hadn't told me to do this, but I never would have had I not met him.
他没有告诉我这样做，但如果没有遇见他，我永远不会这么做。
His checklist gave me false confidence that I could make my way in this land of psychopaths.
他的清单给了我错误的信心，让我相信我可以在这片精神病患者的土地上找到自己的出路。
They looked at me, at once deeply angry, befuddled, and disappointed.
他们看着我，眼神里立刻充满了愤怒、困惑和失望。
"I've got a list of personality traits written down here that define psychopathy," I said, pointing at my pocket.
“我这里写下了一份定义精神病态的人格特征清单，”我指着口袋说道。
"Who the hell are the people who make the list?" said Al.
“名单上的人到底是谁？”艾尔说。
"What are their names?
“他们叫什么名字？
How about I never heard of them?"
我怎么从来没听说过他们？”
At this, I realized I could turn the situation around, to make Bob Hare take the blame, in absentia, for the unpleasantness.
这时，我意识到我可以扭转局面，让鲍勃·黑尔缺席，为不愉快的事情承担责任。
"Bob Hare," I said.
“鲍勃·黑尔，”我说。
I pronounced his name quite clearly.
我把他的名字念得很清楚。
"Bob Hare."
“鲍勃·野兔。”
"I've never heard of him," said Al, a triumphant glint in his eye.
“我从没听说过他，”阿尔说道，眼中闪烁着胜利的光芒。
"He's a psychologist," I said.
“他是一位心理学家，”我说。
I exhaled, to indicate that I felt the same way he presumably did about psychologists.
我呼了一口气，表示我对心理学家的看法大概和他一样。
"So that list," said Al.
“就是这个清单，”艾尔说。
He suddenly looked intrigued.
他突然显得很感兴趣。
"Go ahead," he said.
“继续吧，”他说。
"Let's do it."
“我们开始做吧。”
"OK," I said.
“好吧，”我说。
I pulled it out of my pocket.
我把它从口袋里拿出来。
"Are you sure?"
“你确定吗？”
"Yeah.
“是的。
Let's do it." "OK.
让我们开始吧。” “好的。
Item one.
第一项。
Superficial charm."
表面的魅力。”
"I'm totally charming," he replied.
“我非常有魅力，”他回答道。
"I am totally charming." He, Judy, and Sean laughed, easing the tension.
“我完全有魅力。”他、朱迪和肖恩都笑了，缓解了紧张的气氛。
"Grandiose sense of self-worth?" I asked.
“伟大的自我价值感？”我问。
This was item two on the psychopath checklist.
这是精神病患者清单上的第二项。
It would have been a hard one for him to deny, standing as he was below a giant oil painting of himself.
当他站在一幅巨大的自己的油画下面时，他很难否认这一点。
"No question," said Al.
“毫无疑问，”艾尔说。
"If you don't believe in yourself, nobody else will.
“如果你不相信自己，那么没有人会相信。
You've got to believe in you."
你必须相信你。”
"Is there another list of good things?" said Judy, quite sharply.
“还有其他好东西的清单吗？”朱迪非常尖锐地说道。
"Well," I said.
“好吧，”我说。
We all fell silent.
我们都沉默了。
"Need for stimulation, proneness to boredom?" I said.
“需要刺激，容易感到无聊吗？”我说。
"Yeah," said Al.
“是啊，”艾尔说。
"I'm very prone to boredom.
“我很容易感到无聊。
I've got to go do something.
我得去做点事。
Yeah.
是的。
That's a fair statement."
这是一个公平的说法。”
"Manipulative?" I said.
“操纵？”我说。
"I think you could describe that as leadership," he said.
“我认为你可以将其描述为领导力，”他说。
"Inspire.
“启发。
I think it's called leadership."
我认为这就是所谓的领导力。”
And so the morning continued, with Al redefining a great many psychopathic traits as leadership positives.
早上就这样继续着，艾尔将许多精神变态的特征重新定义为领导力的积极因素。
Impulsivity was, he said, just another way of saying quick analysis.
他说，冲动只是快速分析的另一种说法。
Some people spend a week weighing up the pros and cons.
有些人花了一周时间权衡利弊。
Me?
我？
I look at it for 10 minutes, and if the pros outweigh the cons, go.
我看了 10 分钟，如果利大于弊，那就去吧。
Shallow affect, an inability to feel a deep range of emotions, stops you from feeling what he called some nonsense emotions.
浅薄的情感，即无法感受到深层的情绪，会阻止你感受到他所说的一些无意义的情绪。
And then there's a lack of remorse.
然后缺乏悔恨。
"A lack of remorse," Al says, "just frees you up to move forward and achieve more great things.
“缺乏悔恨，”艾尔说，“只会让你自由地前进并取得更多伟大的成就。
What's the point of drowning yourself in sorrow?"
让自己沉浸在悲伤之中有什么意义呢？”
It felt great.
感觉棒极了。
I congratulated myself on being a genius, on cracking him open.
我庆幸自己是个天才，打开了他的大门。
I found one.
我找到了一个。
But when I got home to London from his house, and I listened back to the tape of my interview with him, I could hear how disappointed I sounded whenever he said things to me that didn't seem psychopathic.
但当我从他家回到伦敦的家中时，我听了采访他的录音，每当他对我说一些看起来不像精神病的事情时，我都能听出我是多么失望。
There'd been a moment, for instance, when I'd asked him about items 12 and 18, early behavior problems and juvenile delinquency.
例如，有一段时间，我向他询问了第 12 条和第 18 条，即早期行为问题和青少年犯罪。
He'd told me, "No, I was a focused, serious kid.
他告诉我，“不，我是一个专注、认真的孩子。
I was very determined.
我的决心非常坚定。
I was a good kid.
我是个好孩子。
In school I was always trying to achieve.
在学校里我总是努力实现目标。
I was always working hard.
我一直都在努力工作。
That saps your energy.
这会消耗你的能量。
You don't have enough time to trouble-make."
你没有足够的时间来制造麻烦。”
"You never got into trouble with the authorities?" I said.
“你从来没有惹过当局的麻烦吗？”我说。
"Nope," he said.
“不，”他说。
"And remember, I got accepted into West Point.
“记住，我被西点军校录取了。
Listen, this psychopath thing is rubbish.
听着，这种心理变态的东西就是垃圾。
You can't be successful unless you have certain," he pointed at his head, "controls.
除非你有一定的控制力，”他指着自己的头，否则你不可能成功。
It won't happen.
这不会发生。
How do you get through school?
你如何度过学业？
How do you get through your first and second job, when you're formulating yourself?" It was a terribly persuasive point, and I'd felt disappointed when he said it.
当你正在规划自己的时候，你是如何度过第一份和第二份工作的呢？”这是一个非常有说服力的观点，当他说出这句话时我感到很失望。
Also, he denied being a liar.
此外，他还否认自己是骗子。
"If I think you're a schmuck," he said, "I'll tell you you're a schmuck." And I believed him.
“如果我认为你是个笨蛋，”他说，“我会告诉你你是个笨蛋。”我相信他。
He denied having a parasitic lifestyle.
他否认自己有寄生的生活方式。
"I'll go get my own meal," he said.
“我自己去吃饭，”他说。
And he did have a loyal wife for 41 years.
他确实有一个忠诚的妻子41年。
There were no rumors of affairs.
没有任何绯闻。
This would score him a zero in items 17 and 11, many short-term marital relationships, and promiscuous sexual behavior.
这将使他在第 17 和 11 项、许多短期婚姻关系和滥交性行为中得零分。
We'd had lunch before I left his house.
在我离开他家之前我们已经吃过午饭了。
Al had seemed in surprisingly high spirits for a man who had just been questioned on which psychopathic traits most applied to him.
对于一个刚刚被问及哪些精神病特征最适合他的人来说，阿尔的情绪似乎出奇地高涨。
As we ate, he told me funny stories about firing people.
我们吃饭时，他给我讲了一些关于解雇员工的有趣故事。
Each was essentially the same.
每个基本上都是一样的。
Someone was lazy, and he fired them with an amusing quip.
有人很懒，他就用一句有趣的俏皮话解雇了他们。
For instance, one lazy Sunbeam executive mentioned to him that he'd just bought himself a fabulous sports car.
例如，一位懒惰的新光高管向他提到他刚刚给自己买了一辆很棒的跑车。
"You may have a fancy sports car," Al replied, "but I'll tell you what you don't have, a job."
“你可能有一辆豪华跑车，”阿尔回答道，“但我会告诉你你没有什么，那就是工作。”
"You do feel good about yourself?" I asked.
“你自我感觉良好吗？”我问。
"Oh, I do," he replied.
“哦，我愿意，”他回答道。
"Oh, I do.
“哦，我愿意。
"Looking back at my life is like going to a movie about a person who did all this stuff.
“回顾我的一生，就像看一部关于一个做了所有这些事情的人的电影。
My gosh, I did that.
天哪，我就是这么做的。
And through it all, I did it my way."
通过这一切，我按照自己的方式做到了。”
Suddenly, I felt a little envious of him.
突然，我有点羡慕他了。
I am the neurological opposite of a psychopath, in that I feel anxious almost all the time.
我在神经学上与精神病患者相反，因为我几乎一直感到焦虑。
It must be great to not constantly feel like you've got someone living inside of your face, shooting you with a mini taser.
如果你不总是感觉有人住在你的脸上，用迷你泰瑟枪射击你，那一定很棒。
Sure, I'll confess to 16 out of the 40 possible points on the checklist.
当然，我会承认清单上 40 个可能点中的 16 个。
And you could reasonably give him another six points, which would put him in the 20's, which is high, but not the 29 or 30, which is the clinical line in the sand for psychopathy.
你可以合理地给他另外 6 分，这将使他处于 20 分左右，这个分数很高，但不是 29 分或 30 分，这是精神病态的临床线。
And wouldn't it be nice to just be a little more like him, someone with no regrets about the past, no remorse, just kind of relaxed, and happy?
如果能更像他一点，一个对过去没有遗憾，没有悔恨，只是放松和快乐的人，不是很好吗？
Jon Ronson, reading an excerpt from his new book, which is one of the inspirations for today's program, called The Psychopath Test.
乔恩·罗森（Jon Ronson）正在阅读他的新书的摘录，这本书是今天节目《精神病测试》的灵感来源之一。
[MUSIC - "IF I WERE KING OF THE FOREST" BY E.Y.
[音乐 - E.Y. 的《如果我是森林之王》
HARBURG AND HAROLD ARLEN]
哈堡和哈罗德·阿伦]
[ PSYCHO THEME MUSIC] Who is the psycho?
[ 精神病主题音乐 ] 精神病是谁？
Thank you for that music cue.
谢谢你的音乐提示。
So if you heard at the beginning of today's program, you heard that I and my fellow producers here at This American Life decided to take the psychopath test ourselves for this week's program.
因此，如果您在今天的节目开始时听说过，我和《This American Life》的制片人同事决定为本周的节目亲自进行精神病测试。
And just to quickly repeat our caveats about that, we did this for entertainment and education purposes only, which meant that we took the short version of the test.
为了快速重复我们的警告，我们这样做只是为了娱乐和教育目的，这意味着我们参加了简短版本的测试。
The doctor who administered the test didn't do the kinds of painstaking follow-ups that he normally does.
进行测试的医生没有像平常那样进行艰苦的随访。
For instance, he didn't look into court records to verify our stories.
例如，他没有查阅法庭记录来验证我们的故事。
He took our word for all kinds of things, which he normally would not do if he was facing a real potential psychopath.
他对各种事情都相信我们的话，但如果他面对的是一个真正的潜在精神病患者，他通常不会这样做。
That's because we assume that none of us was even close to scoring at psychopath levels on the test.
那是因为我们假设我们中没有人在测试中获得接近精神病水平的分数。
We figured that we would each score a couple points here, a couple points there.
我们认为我们每个人都会在这里得几分，那里得几分。
And then we wanted to see who would rack up the most points.
然后我们想看看谁能获得最多积分。
Robyn and Jane, if you remember at the beginning of our show, were favorites because of trouble that they got into as teenagers.
如果你还记得我们节目一开始的时候，罗宾和简是最受欢迎的，因为他们在青少年时期遇到了麻烦。
Teenage life is a lot of questions on the test.
青少年时期的生活就是要考试很多题。
And then there was one more candidate for scoring points.
然后又多了一位得分候选人。
I thought, if you have the ego to say, like, I'm going to start my own radio show, that somehow you just are concentrated more on yourself in a way that would mean that you would lean that way.
我想，如果你有自我说，比如，我要开始我自己的广播节目，不知何故，你只是更加专注于自己，这意味着你会倾向于那样。
I was just going to say you just more on the like-- like on the feelings stuff.
我只是想说你更多的是关于感情的事情。
Yeah, the feeling stuff.
是的，感觉的东西。
Yeah, the feeling stuff.
是的，感觉的东西。
OK, this is going to come as news to anybody who only knows me over the radio, but not news to anybody who knows me in real life.
好吧，这对那些只通过广播认识我的人来说是新闻，但对现实生活中认识我的人来说却不是新闻。
As you might suspect about somebody who designed and created an entire radio show built around very personal conversations and moments where people really connect with each other, the only kind of person who would go to the trouble to invent a show like that will be somebody who in real life struggles with every one of those things, which I do.
正如你可能会怀疑有人设计并创作了一个围绕非常私人的对话和人们真正相互联系的时刻构建的整个广播节目，唯一愿意不辞辛劳地发明这样一个节目的人将是那些在现实生活中与这些事情作斗争的人，我就是这么做的。
I can fake my way through social situations, of course, but people who really know me, like my coworkers do, know how detached, and anxious, and awkward I can be.
当然，我可以在社交场合伪装自己，但真正了解我的人，比如我的同事，知道我是多么的冷漠、焦虑和尴尬。
Which is why they said, at the top of the program--
这就是为什么他们在节目顶部说——
Who do you guys think is going to have the highest score.
大家觉得谁会获得最高分呢？
Yes.
是的。
Robyn Semien I-- it's a toss up for me.
Robyn Semien I——这对我来说是一个难以抉择的事情。
This is Robyn.
这是罗宾。
Robyn Semien As I was answering the questions, I kept thinking Jane's going to have such better answers than I am.
罗宾·塞米恩（Robyn Semien） 当我回答问题时，我一直在想简会比我得到更好的答案。
That's what I thought, too.
我也是这么想的。
Because Jane had more rough and tumble.
因为简经历过更多的坎坷。
Yeah, I think my money's gone on to Jane, now.
是的，我想我的钱现在都给了简。
This, by the way, is our show's senior producer, Julie Snyder.
顺便说一句，这是我们节目的高级制片人朱莉·斯奈德。
So now, I know more about Jane's run-ins.
现在，我对简的争执有了更多的了解。
I don't know so much about Robyn.
我对罗宾了解不多。
Robyn, what do you got?
罗宾，你有什么？
Julie Snyder So now I guess I got it between the two of you.
朱莉·斯奈德 所以现在我想你们两个之间已经达成共识了。
Problems with the law?
法律有问题吗？
Let's have a rundown.
让我们来总结一下。
No, I had no problems with the law.
不，我在法律上没有任何问题。
I have none.
我没有。
I had, like, one cheating story, which who didn't?
我有一个作弊故事，谁没有呢？
In school.
在学校。
Like stealing a teacher's manual and lying about it.
就像偷了一本教师手册并撒谎一样。
What, you guys didn't do that?
什么，你们没有这么做？
OK, so let's go around and make our votes.
好的，让我们四处投票吧。
Oh, my God.
哦，天啊。
Do we have to?
我们必须这样做吗？
Ira Glass That's Jane, who didn't want to be number one.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：这就是简，她不想成为第一。
Jane.
简.
Robyn Semien I'm going to go with Jane.
Robyn Semien 我要和 Jane 一起去。
I think I'm going with Jane.
我想我要和简一起去。
Jane Feltes If I start crying while you guys are doing this, does that mean I'm not a psychopath?
Jane Feltes 如果我在你们这样做的时候开始哭泣，那是否意味着我不是一个精神病患者？
Yes.
是的。
Ira Glass In the end, the final tally was Robyn with four votes, Jane with three, I had one.
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 最终，罗宾 (Robyn) 获得四票，简 (Jane) 获得三票，我获得一票。
And Nancy, in a surprise move, I have to say, voted for herself.
我不得不说，南希出人意料地将票投给了自己。
I'm in this to win it.
我参加这场比赛是为了赢得胜利。
I just want to tell you all that.
我只是想告诉你这一切。
I don't know what game we're playing here, but I'm going to win.
我不知道我们在这里玩什么游戏，但我会赢。
Then, our forensic psychologist, David Bernstein, joined us.
然后，我们的法医心理学家大卫·伯恩斯坦加入了我们。
He had actually heard us talking about how worried we were about our scores from the other room.
他实际上在另一个房间听到我们谈论我们对自己的分数有多么担心。
So you have there a stack of, actually, very official looking papers, and your notes, with all of our scores.
所以你有一堆实际上看起来非常正式的文件，还有你的笔记，还有我们所有的分数。
Before we get to the actual scores, are there any patterns that you feel like you noticed in the group?
在我们得到实际分数之前，您是否觉得自己在小组中注意到了一些模式？
Yeah, see, you guys are way too neurotic to really be psychopaths.
是的，看，你们太神经质了，不可能是真正的精神病患者。
[LAUGHTER] Interestingly, half of you almost cried as I was asking some of the questions, by the way.
[笑声] 有趣的是，顺便说一句，当我问一些问题时，你们中有一半人几乎哭了。
That probably disqualified you from being a psychopath right there.
这可能使你失去了成为精神病患者的资格。
Dr. Bernstein explained to us that the way that the test is scored, for each of the possible psychopathic traits that you could have, you could get a zero, a one, or a two.
伯恩斯坦博士向我们解释说，根据测试的评分方式，对于您可能具有的每种可能的精神病特征，您可能会得到零、一或二。
Two means you really have it.
两个意味着你真的拥有它。
One means you have it, it's there, but maybe not to the same magnitude.
一意味着你拥有它，它就在那里，但可能没有达到同样的程度。
And zero means it might have been something that occurred, but it's not nearly enough to reach the level of being scored.
零意味着可能发生了一些事情，但还不足以达到评分的水平。
It doesn't reach that level.
还达不到那个水平。
You guys want to know what your scores were?
小伙伴们想知道你们的成绩是多少吗？
Yeah, maybe we should start with the lowest scores first, and then go to the highest.
是的，也许我们应该先从最低分开始，然后再到最高分。
Well, this will be very easy, because you all scored a zero.
嗯，这会很容易，因为你们都得了零分。
Every one of you.
你们每一个人。
Wow, even Robyn?
哇，连罗宾也有吗？
David Bernstein Even Robyn.
大卫·伯恩斯坦甚至罗宾。
And this is because none of you really did anything maliciously.
这是因为你们中没有人真正做过任何恶意的事情。
You never set out to predate, to hurt anyone.
你从来没有打算去掠夺、伤害任何人。
And even those of you who've done things, when I asked how do you feel about it?
即使是那些做过事的人，当我问你对此有何感想？
Most of you thought back on it with regret, and remorse.
你们大多数人回想起来都感到遗憾和悔恨。
You're empathic, is what you all are, which is the opposite of psychopathy.
你们都是有同理心的人，这与精神病态相反。
This is the thing I think we wouldn't have understood as well if we hadn't actually gone through the trouble of taking the test ourselves, is just how categorically different psychopaths are from the rest of us.
我认为，如果我们自己没有经历过真正参加测试的麻烦，我们也不会理解这一点，这就是精神病患者与我们其他人有多么不同。
Dr. Bernstein joked that it's a lifelong commitment.
伯恩斯坦博士开玩笑说这是一生的承诺。
Even the person who we thought would be the most likely to score a few points in the psychopath test, Robyn, at her most antisocial moment, stealing the teacher's manual in junior high school, apparently failed to do what any self-respecting, lacking-in-empathy psychopath would do.
即使是我们认为最有可能在精神病测试中得几分的人罗宾，在她最反社会的时刻，在初中偷了教师手册，显然也没有做到任何自尊、缺乏同理心的精神病患者会做的事情。
This next recording is from when Robyn took the test.
下一个录音是 Robyn 参加测试时的录音。
So here's a question.
所以这里有一个问题。
Now, you said you stole the manual.
现在，你说你偷了手册。
Yeah.
是的。
David Bernstein And you gave out the answers?
大卫·伯恩斯坦 你给出了答案吗？
Yeah.
是的。
David Bernstein Did you sell the answers?
大卫·伯恩斯坦 你卖掉答案了吗？
No David Bernstein Why'd you give them away?
不，大卫·伯恩斯坦 你为什么要把它们送人？
Just because we wanted everyone to do well.
只是因为我们希望每个人都做得很好。
Mm-hm.
嗯嗯。
Ira Glass That is the mm-hm of I am bored.
Ira Glass 这就是“我很无聊”的意思。
That's the mm-hm that you say when you're thinking, you people are not psychopaths.
这就是你在思考时所说的“嗯嗯”，你们不是精神病患者。
[MUSIC - "IF I ONLY HAD THE NERVE" BY E.Y.
[音乐 - E.Y. 的“如果我有勇气”
HARBURG AND HAROLD ARLEN]
哈堡和哈罗德·阿伦]
Well, our program was produced today by Jane Feltes, with the zero-scoring staff of Alex Blumberg, Ben Calhoun, Sarah Koenig, Jonathan Menjivar, Lisa Pollak, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
好吧，我们的节目今天由 Jane Feltes 制作，零分工作人员包括 Alex Blumberg、Ben Calhoun、Sarah Koenig、Jonathan Menjivar、Lisa Pollak、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Production help from Eric Mennel.
埃里克·门内尔 (Eric Mennel) 提供制作帮助。
Seth Lind is our production manager.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的生产经理。
Emily Condon's our office manager.
艾米丽·康登是我们的办公室经理。
Jen Berman is filling in as our west coast producer.
Jen Berman 将担任我们的西海岸制片人。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
[致谢] 我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight for our program by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia, who wants to move the show-- can you believe it?-- to Louisiana, for just one reason.
[资金来源] 我们的老板 Torey Malatia 先生对我们的节目进行了 WBEZ 管理监督，他想将节目——你能相信吗？——移至路易斯安那州，原因只有一个。
Alligators, alligators, more alligators.
鳄鱼，鳄鱼，更多鳄鱼。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week, with more stories of This American Life.
下周将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。