432: Know When To Fold ‘Em - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #432 | April 8, 2011 432: Know When To Fold ‘Em Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 432 集 | 2011 年 4 月 8 日 432：知道何时折叠它们 注意：This American Life 是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass I was surprised this week during this interview I was doing, I sat down to talk to the guy, Jim McManus is his name, whose book, Positively Fifth Street, is the book that actually started me playing poker years ago.
序言 Ira Glass 这周在我做的采访中我感到很惊讶，我坐下来和这个人交谈，他的名字是吉姆·麦克马纳斯（Jim McManus），他的书《积极第五街》实际上是几年前让我开始玩扑克的书。
And we were going to do this interview about great poker hands.
我们打算就伟大的扑克牌进行这次采访。
And you know that saying, know when to hold them, know when to fold them?
你知道这句话吗，知道何时持有它们，知道何时折叠它们？
This interview was going to be about moments when players showed an almost supernatural ability, an uncanny power to know whether they should get out of a hand before they're crushed.
这次采访将讲述球员们表现出近乎超自然的能力的时刻，一种神奇的力量，让他们知道自己是否应该在被压垮之前摆脱困境。
I'll tell you what I have.
我会告诉你我有什么。
I have four examples.
我有四个例子。
One of his books is actually a history of poker called Cowboys Full-- he knows all kinds of poker lore.
他的一本书实际上是一本名为《Cowboys Full》的扑克史——他了解各种扑克知识。
And so Jim shows up with four examples, and three of them were poker hands.
吉姆举了四个例子，其中三个是扑克牌手。
And then I have the Cuban Missile Crisis between Khrushchev and Kennedy, in which Khrushchev folded, thus saving the world from a nuclear exchange.
然后是赫鲁晓夫和肯尼迪之间的古巴导弹危机，赫鲁晓夫屈服了，从而使世界免于核交锋。
Well, I think let's start with that one.
好吧，我想我们就从这个开始吧。
So how does that lay out as a poker hand?
那么，这手牌是如何布局的呢？
Just walk me through it.
请引导我完成它。
Well, Khrushchev and the Soviets had bet that the young, inexperienced Kennedy, who they had met in Europe and had read him as not quite as tough as the previous president, Eisenhower.
嗯，赫鲁晓夫和苏联人打赌，年轻、缺乏经验的肯尼迪，他们在欧洲见过，并认为他不像前任总统艾森豪威尔那样强硬。
They decided that they would try to put missile bases on Cuba.
他们决定尝试在古巴建立导弹基地。
And Kennedy startled them by raising, by blockading the island, insisting that the bases be taken apart, and putting our nuclear forces on highest alert.
肯尼迪提出封锁该岛，坚持拆除基地，并使我们的核力量处于最高戒备状态，这让他们感到震惊。
And Khrushchev made what is called an awesome lay down.
赫鲁晓夫做出了所谓的令人敬畏的躺下。
He agreed to take the sites, to take them apart.
他同意占领这些地点，将它们拆开。
There could have easily been a nuclear war over that.
对此很容易爆发核战争。
So in this reading of it, Khrushchev's original bet was really a bluff?
那么从这个解读来看，赫鲁晓夫最初的赌注真的是虚张声势吗？
It was a testing bet.
这是一个测试性的赌注。
Kennedy needed to figure out whether he was bluffing or he actually was ready to commit all the way.
肯尼迪需要弄清楚他是否在虚张声势，或者他实际上已经准备好全力以赴。
So he raised by blockading the island, communicating to them-- bluffing-- that we were ready to make a nuclear strike.
因此，他通过封锁该岛，虚张声势地向他们传达我们已准备好发动核打击。
Whether or not we were bluffing still remains unknown.
我们是否在虚张声势仍然不得而知。
And Khrushchev's response was to fold.
赫鲁晓夫的回应是放弃。
Of course, this is a perfect week to talk about politics as poker.
当然，这是用扑克来谈论政治的完美一周。
All this week, Barack Obama's been in a high stakes game of chicken with Congressional Republicans over shutting down the government, each side firing what I guess Jim would call testing bets, insisting on their version of the federal budget, demanding the other side would fold.
整个星期，巴拉克·奥巴马(Barack Obama)一直在与国会共和党人就关闭政府问题进行一场高风险的“胆怯游戏”，双方都进行了我猜吉姆会称之为测试的赌注，坚持自己的联邦预算版本，要求对方屈服。
Each side calling the other's bluff day, after day, after day.
双方日复一日、日复一日地揭对方的虚张声势。
Neither side willing to toss in their cards.
双方都不愿意扔牌。
Well, from WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.
好吧，这是芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today on our show, to help our nation's leaders, and the rest of us as well, Know When To Fold 'Em.
今天在我们的节目中，为了帮助我们国家的领导人以及我们其他人，知道何时放弃他们。
Stories about people who have to figure out when they should give up.
关于人们必须弄清楚何时应该放弃的故事。
When is it time for a tactical retreat?
什么时候是战术撤退的时候？
We have dictators, drunks, an ungrateful kid facing off with his parent, and a team of guys chasing a lone man through the Brazilian rain forest.
我们有独裁者、醉汉、一个与父母对峙的忘恩负义的孩子，还有一队人在巴西雨林中追逐一个孤独的人。
None of them on today's show wants to fold their cards.
今天的节目中没有人愿意放弃自己的牌。
And as Jim McManus points out, figuring out when to hold them and when to fold them isn't always so obvious, at least when it comes to real games of poker.
正如 Jim McManus 指出的那样，弄清楚何时持有它们以及何时弃牌并不总是那么明显，至少在真正的扑克游戏中是这样。
Well, the major hand of my life-- an example of one in which a player either foolishly or brilliantly decides to hold them rather than fold them-- was a pot that the other guy in the hand was TJ Cloutier, who was also the winningest tournament poker player in history.
好吧，我一生中最重要的一手牌——一个玩家愚蠢或明智地决定持有而不是弃牌的例子——是一手彩池，手中的另一个人是 TJ Cloutier，他也是历史上获胜最多的锦标赛扑克玩家。
Jim calls it the major hand in his life because it's the hand that made the most serious players in the world take notice of him.
吉姆称这手牌为他一生中最重要的牌，因为正是这手牌让世界上最认真的牌手注意到了他。
This was back in 2000.
这是2000年的事了。
Jim was covering the World Series of Poker for Harper's Magazine, and he entered the tournament, his first one ever.
吉姆正在为《哈珀杂志》报道世界扑克系列赛，他参加了比赛，这是他第一次参加比赛。
And he was terrified.
他很害怕。
He actually ended up at the final table, walking away with a quarter million dollars, which would have been impossible without this hand against one of his poker heroes, TJ Cloutier.
事实上，他最终进入了决赛桌，赢得了 25 万美元，如果没有这手牌对抗他的扑克英雄之一 TJ Cloutier，这是不可能的。
I had studied and even memorized long passages of his book about how to play hold 'em.
我研究过甚至记住了他书中关于如何玩德州扑克的长篇文章。
And the hold cards he focused most of his attention on were ace, king.
他最集中注意力的持有牌是 A、K。
So, in this crucial life changing moment, Jim's across the table from TJ, and that is the hand that Jim gets-- ace, king.
所以，在这个改变人生的关键时刻，Jim 坐在 TJ 对面，这就是 Jim 拿到的牌——A、K。
Jim bets, just like it says to do in the book.
吉姆打赌，就像书中所说的那样。
Everybody folds but TJ, who raises.
每个人都弃牌，除了 TJ，他加注。
You have to also bear in mind that he is a large former tight end in the Canadian Football League.
你还必须记住，他是加拿大橄榄球联盟的一名前近端锋。
So it's not just the size, the number of chips he's pushing forward, it's the growl and the snarl factor, and the physical intimidation that sort of go along with it.
所以这不仅仅是他向前推进的尺寸和数量，还有咆哮和咆哮因素，以及随之而来的身体恐吓。
Jim says that he knew the relevant passage from TJ's book so well that he could nearly recite it.
Jim 说他非常熟悉 TJ 书中的相关段落，几乎可以背诵出来。
And he knew that he should either raise or he should fold.
他知道他要么加注，要么弃牌。
And then he does neither.
然后他什么也不做。
He matches TJ's bet-- he calls-- thinking that TJ is probably bluffing, but too scared to raise him.
他跟注了 TJ 的赌注——他跟注——认为 TJ 可能是在虚张声势，但又不敢加注。
Next time TJ bets, Jim calls again.
下次 TJ 下注时，Jim 会再次跟注。
And the next time after that, which puts Jim all in.
在那之后的下一次，吉姆全力以赴。
All his chips are now in the pot.
他所有的筹码现在都在底池里了。
And in the end, when all the cards come down, neither he nor TJ even has a pair.
最后，当所有的牌都落下时，他和 TJ 都没有拿到对子。
And when we turned over our cards, he had ace, nine, I had ace, king, and I won a pot that made me the chip leader in the tournament.
当我们翻牌时，他有 A、9，我有 A、K，我赢得了底池，使我成为锦标赛中的筹码领先者。
But now, with 11 years of experience playing tournament poker, that's a call that I would never make.
但现在，凭借 11 年玩锦标赛扑克的经验，我永远不会做出这样的决定。
I would never call all in with no pair in a big tournament.
我绝不会在大型锦标赛中没有对子的情况下全押。
So at that time, you're saying, in the end it worked out to be the right move, but you're saying it was a mistake?
所以当时你说，最终结果是正确的举动，但你说这是一个错误？
It was probably a mistake.
这可能是一个错误。
Ira Glass A mistake, because given the aggressiveness of TJ's bets, TJ very well could have had at least a little pair.
Ira Glass 一个错误，因为考虑到 TJ 下注的激进性，TJ 很可能至少有一点对子。
even a pair of twos would have beaten Jim.
即使是两个人也能打败吉姆。
But Jim was such an amateur at that point, he didn't fold the way an experienced player would.
但吉姆当时还是个业余选手，他并没有像经验丰富的玩家那样弃牌。
It's interesting, because I've heard that professional players, they say in some situations the hardest person to play against is an amateur, because they can't predict what the amateur is going to do when they put pro moves on them.
这很有趣，因为我听说职业选手，他们说在某些情况下最难对付的人是业余选手，因为他们无法预测业余选手在对他们采取职业动作时会做什么。
And in a way, what you're saying is that's what happened right here.
在某种程度上，你所说的就是这里发生的事情。
That's exactly what happened.
这正是发生的事情。
And my call was in one sense a brilliant call.
从某种意义上说，我的决定是一次绝妙的决定。
Amarillo Slim, who was the color commentator at the time, said, "That boy's got the heart of a cliff diver.
时任色彩解说员阿马里洛·斯利姆 (Amarillo Slim) 说道：“那个男孩有一颗悬崖跳水运动员的心。
I'm going to bet on him to win." And yet, other people, including TJ, said, "He played it more like a deer in the headlights.
我打赌他会赢。”然而，包括 TJ 在内的其他人表示，“他打得更像是车灯下的鹿。
He was too scared to fold." My ability to suss out the situation was inadequate to realize that I was probably beaten-- even though I wasn't, I was probably beaten.
他太害怕了，不敢弃牌。”我弄清楚情况的能力不足以意识到我可能被打败了——即使我没有，我也可能被打败了。
And that I made a mistake that just turned out to--
我犯了一个错误，结果是——
Make you a hero.
让你成为英雄。
Jim McManus Yeah, make me a hero.
吉姆·麦克马纳斯 是的，让我成为英雄。
Sometimes the line between a foolish call and a brilliant one, it just depends on how the cards-- the rest of the hand gets dealt out.
有时，愚蠢的跟注和精彩的跟注之间的界限，只取决于牌的发牌方式——剩下的牌。
And the fact that so much of the time you really are just kind of in the dark, and you have to figure out, "Should I raise, should I fold these?" Is that the thing you hate about poker, is that the thing you love about poker?
事实上，很多时候你真的只是在黑暗中，你必须弄清楚，“我应该加注，我应该弃牌吗？”这是你讨厌扑克的地方，还是你喜欢扑克的地方？
No, that's the thing that I love about poker.
不，这就是我喜欢扑克的地方。
That's what makes it an art from.
这就是它成为一门艺术的原因。
The thing that I hate about poker is that you can sit there, and puzzle it out, and think it through, and come up with exactly the right answer, and play the hand perfectly, and your opponent can play the hand as stupidly as he can and still get saved by the dealer on the river, and you lose.
我讨厌扑克的一点是，你可以坐在那里，想出答案，想清楚，想出正确的答案，完美地玩这手牌，而你的对手可以尽可能愚蠢地玩这手牌，但仍然在河牌圈被庄家救了，你就输了。
The fact that you can play the hand well and lose all of your money is really uncool.
事实上，你可以打好这手牌，但却输掉所有的钱，这真的很不酷。
That's a rub.
这很麻烦。
It's hard to know when to fold them and when to hold them, much less when to walk away and when to run.
很难知道何时折叠它们、何时握住它们，更不用说何时走开、何时逃跑。
And even when you figure it out, even when you suss out exactly the right thing to do, the cards can come down in some crazy way that favors your opponent and you lose anyway.
即使你弄清楚了，即使你弄清楚了正确的做法，牌也可能会以某种对你的对手有利的疯狂方式落下，而你无论如何都会输。
We have four stories of people navigating all of that away from the poker table.
我们有四个故事，讲述了人们摆脱扑克桌的所有这些。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Is This War or Is This Hearts?
第一幕，这是战争还是人心？
Dave Dickerson has this story of laying down his cards, which includes one of the most exemplary pieces of parenting I think I have ever heard of.
戴夫·迪克森（Dave Dickerson）有一个放下底牌的故事，其中包括我想我听说过的最模范的养育方式之一。
When I was 28 years old, I came back home for the first time in six years fully aware that I was the black sheep.
当我28岁的时候，六年来我第一次回到家，充分意识到自己是害群之马。
I had rejected my faith.
我拒绝了我的信仰。
I had rejected Tucson, Arizona.
我拒绝了亚利桑那州图森市。
I was the only one in the family who wasn't married.
我是家里唯一没有结婚的人。
I was the only one who couldn't even speak Spanish.
我是唯一一个连西班牙语都不会说的人。
And I was just sitting with my dad in a booth at a diner, and it should have been just this kind of innocent thing, where I'm visiting after six years, and it's nice to catch up.
我当时正和爸爸坐在一家小餐馆的包间里，这本来应该是一种无辜的事情，六年后我再次来到这里，很高兴能赶上来。
But it wasn't like that.
但事实并非如此。
We were facing each other.
我们面对面。
We both had, as it happens, cowboy hats and cowboy boots.
碰巧，我们都戴着牛仔帽和牛仔靴。
And I remember thinking, this is a showdown.
我记得我当时想，这是一场摊牌。
Because my dad and I were at war.
因为我和我爸爸正在打仗。
My dad didn't know this, but I was at war with him.
我父亲不知道这一点，但我和他发生了争执。
I was at war with all Christians, and I was just waiting for an excuse to fire a shot.
我正在与所有基督徒交战，我只是在等待开枪的借口。
I'd been raised an evangelical Christian-- you know, conservative, Bible-believing Christian-- and I loved it so much that I said, I'm going to be a pastor.
我从小就是一个福音派基督徒——你知道，保守的、相信圣经的基督徒——我非常喜欢它，所以我说，我要成为一名牧师。
I'm going to learn everything I can learn.
我将学习我能学到的一切。
And I went off and I majored in religious studies in college.
然后我就离开了，在大学主修宗教研究。
And from my very first scholarly class in the history of the Bible, my faith began to crumble until there was nothing left.
从我第一堂圣经历史学术课开始，我的信仰就开始崩溃，直到什么都没有剩下。
And I now had this game I could play, where if you open a Bible to any page, I could find five flaws in it.
现在我有了一个可以玩的游戏，如果你打开圣经的任何一页，我都可以找到其中的五个缺陷。
So I'd spent this entire time, not just with my dad, but certainly this particular evening, just waiting for a chance.
所以我花了整个时间，不仅仅是和我父亲在一起，当然还有这个特别的晚上，只是在等待机会。
Just mention the virgin birth, just once, and I'll tell you it's a mistranslation from Isaiah.
只要提到童女生子，就一次，我就告诉你这是对以赛亚书的误译。
Just mention Second Peter and I can prove to you it's a second century forgery.
只要提到《彼得后书》，我就可以向你证明这是二世纪的伪造品。
Say anything at all, please, please, about the Antichrist, revelation, the end times, anything like that, and I have a screed set up that's so blistering it would make Billy Graham feel ridiculous.
不管怎么说，拜托，拜托，关于反基督者，启示录，末日，诸如此类的事情，我已经准备好了一篇长篇大论，内容如此激烈，会让比利·格雷厄姆感到荒谬。
And I had all this ammunition, and I couldn't wait to use it.
我拥有所有这些弹药，我迫不及待地想使用它。
I was just looking for an excuse.
我只是想找个借口而已。
It had sort of turned me into a jackass.
它让我变成了一个蠢货。
Now, what my dad didn't know was that one of the reasons I was so excited is I actually was just coming off a victory.
现在，我父亲不知道的是，我如此兴奋的原因之一是我实际上刚刚获得胜利。
The previous night, I had argued my brother-in-law to a standstill.
前一天晚上，我和姐夫争吵到了绝境。
He had mentioned something about how proud he was about being a Christian, because everything in the Bible was so scientifically accurate.
他曾提到他为自己是一名基督徒而感到自豪，因为圣经中的一切在科学上都是如此准确。
And I went a little nuts and I said, "Oh yeah, what about this thing?" And there's this tiny little section, just one sentence in like, Exodus, where the Israelites are fighting the Amorites or somebody, and God does a miracle where he makes the sun stand still for an entire day, in order to give the Israelites a chance to recover and give them more time to fight.
我有点发疯了，我说：“哦，是的，这个东西怎么样？”还有一个很小的部分，就像《出埃及记》中的一句话，以色列人正在与亚摩利人或其他人作战，上帝创造了一个奇迹，他让太阳静止了一整天，以便给以色列人一个恢复的机会，并给他们更多的时间去战斗。
And I told my brother-in-law, "You really believe this?
我告诉我姐夫：“你真的相信这个吗？
You believe this actually happened?
你相信这真的发生过吗？
That God stopped the entire planet from rotating, stopped gravity, all of things that would have to happen for the sun to stand still?
上帝阻止了整个行星的旋转，阻止了引力，所有这些都必须发生才能让太阳静止下来？
Is that the most sensible thing the most powerful being in the world can do?" And my brother-in-law said, "Well, OK, that's weird, and I wish it weren't in there, but if I doubt that, where do I stop?"
这是世界上最强大的存在所能做的最明智的事情吗？”我姐夫说：“好吧，这很奇怪，我希望它不在那里，但如果我对此表示怀疑，我该在哪里停止呢？”
And that, I knew, was as close as I was going to get to him saying, "You're right and I'm wrong." I remember looking at the clock, and it was 5:00 in the morning.
我知道，我几乎就要对他说：“你是对的，我是错的。”我记得看了看钟，现在是凌晨5:00。
I had argued this one point for seven hours.
我就这一点争论了七个小时。
And I realized, this is like my job.
我意识到，这就像我的工作。
I just put in a full working day.
我刚刚投入了一个完整的工作日。
Obviously, I was obsessed.
显然，我很着迷。
At the time I was 28 years old.
当时我28岁。
I was also a virgin, and I'd been a virgin because the Bible says so, because I thought Jesus wanted it that way.
我也是处女，我一直是处女，因为圣经这么说，因为我认为耶稣想要那样。
And then Jesus vanished on me.
然后耶稣就从我身上消失了。
I had spent all of my life trying to be good, trying to do the right thing, and, you know, trusting that this would be rewarded.
我一生都在努力做好事，努力做正确的事，并且相信这会得到回报。
And then my faith collapsed.
然后我的信仰崩溃了。
And there's no betrayal like losing 10 years of your life, your sexual peak basically.
没有什么背叛比失去你生命中的十年，基本上是你的性巅峰更重要了。
I'm never going to get that back.
我永远不会把它拿回来。
And I was furious.
我很愤怒。
And I didn't know who to blame.
我不知道该责怪谁。
But I knew I could help other people from having the same horrible experience.
但我知道我可以帮助其他人摆脱同样可怕的经历。
And I was looking at my brother-in-law and thinking-- you know, we were arguing about Genesis, but in my mind I was thinking, there is no way you have a good sex life.
我看着我的姐夫，心想——你知道，我们在争论《创世纪》，但我心里在想，你不可能拥有美好的性生活。
You know, because the Bible doesn't care, and pleasure doesn't even matter in the Bible.
你知道，因为圣经不在乎，快乐在圣经中甚至都不重要。
But I can save you.
但我可以救你。
And with this kind of exciting, thrilling victory still humming in the back of my head, I was sitting there with my dad in the diner.
我和爸爸坐在餐厅里，这种激动人心的胜利仍然在我脑后嗡嗡作响。
Because a brother-in-law is one thing.
因为姐夫是一回事。
A dad is someone else.
爸爸是另外一个人。
I needed to save him.
我需要拯救他。
And so I said, "So, dad, what's your life like right now?" And he said, "Well, I found a new church home." And I heard church, and I perked up, and I was ready to go.
所以我说：“那么，爸爸，你现在的生活怎么样？”他说：“好吧，我找到了一个新的教堂之家。”我听到教堂的声音，我就振作起来，准备出发。
But I thought, eh, church, not much to argue about there, people go to church, OK, it's nothing biblical.
但我想，呃，教堂，没什么可争论的，人们去教堂，好吧，这不符合圣经。
And he said, "You know, it's a small church, and the pastor found out that I play the accordion, and he made me the music minister.
他说：“你知道，那是一座小教堂，牧师发现我会拉手风琴，于是他任命我为音乐牧师。
That'll be nice." And again, I was like, [?
那就太好了。”再一次，我想，[？
tightened, ?] but I thought, "Meh, music ministry, no, nothing there." And then he said, "You know, this other kind of interesting thing is happening, I've been praying about it, and I think I'm going to be a missionary." And that struck a chord.
收紧，？]但我想，“呃，音乐事工，不，什么也没有。”然后他说：“你知道，另一种有趣的事情正在发生，我一直在为此祈祷，我想我会成为一名传教士。”这引起了共鸣。
I sat upright, and I went, "Oh really?
我坐直了身子，说道：“哦，真的吗？
A missionary?
传教士？
Where are you going to go?" And then he said, "Oh, Spain."
你要去哪里？”然后他说：“哦，西班牙。”
And I snapped.
我厉声说道。
I said, "Oh, of course.
我说：“哦，当然。
Of course you're going to go to Spain.
当然，你要去西班牙。
That is so arrogant.
就是这么嚣张。
Only an evangelical Christian would say, oh, those poor benighted Spaniards need to learn about Jesus.
只有福音派基督徒才会说，哦，那些可怜的愚昧的西班牙人需要了解耶稣。
You know," I said, "evangelical Christianity as a way, the whole model of salvation that you guys preach, wasn't even around till the 19th century.
你知道，”我说，“福音派基督教作为一种方式，你们所宣扬的整个救赎模式，直到 19 世纪才出现。
You claim to represent all of Christianity, and you're really just the tiny sliver at the end of the iceberg.
你声称代表了整个基督教，而你实际上只是冰山尽头的一小部分。
And you know, the model of salvation you're even selling is so weird.
你知道，你所推销的救赎模式是如此奇怪。
Conversion should be the response of the whole person to a call from God on a deep personal level, and evangelical Christians have turned it into this transaction, like a merchandise, like a, try our God and your life will be better.
归信应该是整个人在个人深处对神呼召的回应，而福音派基督徒已经把它变成了这种交易，就像一件商品，就像一个，试试我们的神，你的生活会更好。
Say this prayer, and now here's the merchandising table.
说出这个祷告，现在这里就是推销台。
It's just horrible."
这太可怕了。”
"And Dad," I said, "You're saving people?
“爸爸，”我说，“你在救人吗？
What are you saving them from?
你救他们脱离什么？
Hell, may I guess?
天哪，我可以猜一下吗？
Because let me point something else out to you.
因为让我向你指出其他事情。
Hell is a mistranslation from the King James of four completely different words for the afterlife.
地狱是詹姆斯国王对来世四个完全不同的词的误译。
Gehenna, and hades, and sheol, and King James just kind of rounded them all up to hell.
地狱、地狱、阴间和詹姆斯国王简直把他们都围进了地狱。
And the idea of eternal torture has no precedent in the Old Testament.
永恒折磨的想法在旧约中没有先例。
It has never made any moral sense.
它从来没有任何道德意义。
And the second you believe in hell, you're undermining everything good.
一旦你相信地狱，你就破坏了一切美好的事物。
Because a morality based in fear can only bring out the worst in people, and never their best."
因为基于恐惧的道德只能带出人们最坏的一面，而永远不会带出他们最好的一面。”
And I just rambled on like this.
我就这样胡言乱语。
And I knew, essentially, while I was doing this, I was also assaulting his dream.
我知道，本质上，当我这样做时，我也在侵犯他的梦想。
You know, saying everything he was excited about, that he was sharing with me, was misbegotten, was a bad idea, was morally corrupt.
你知道，说他所兴奋的一切，他与我分享的一切，都是错误的，是一个坏主意，是道德败坏的。
But all he had to do was admit I was right and then we'd be OK.
但他所要做的就是承认我是对的，然后我们就没事了。
And I really didn't know what was going to happen now, because I'd just fired the first shot.
我真的不知道现在会发生什么，因为我刚刚开了第一枪。
And he just quietly let me do my thing.
他只是静静地让我做我的事。
And when I'd settled down and gotten my piece out, he said, "David, I'm really proud of everything you've done.
当我安顿下来并拿出我的作品时，他说：“大卫，我真的为你所做的一切感到自豪。
And I'm really glad that you enjoy studying all these things, and thinking all these thoughts.
我真的很高兴你喜欢研究所有这些东西，思考所有这些想法。
But I've got to tell you, before I became a Christian, I was miserable.
但我必须告诉你，在我成为基督徒之前，我很痛苦。
I wanted to kill myself.
我想自杀。
I wanted to get a divorce from your mom."
我想和你妈妈离婚。”
And I remembered, suddenly, like I was six years old and I was back in the car, and I remember driving in the station wagon with my dad from South Dakota to Tucson, because dad had had a miserable life, had a nervous breakdown, he was rebuilding everything.
我突然想起，就像我六岁的时候，我又回到了车里，我记得和爸爸一起开着旅行车从南达科他州开到图森，因为爸爸的生活很悲惨，精神崩溃了，他正在重建一切。
And he was holding a cigarette out the window the whole ride down.
整个旅程中，他一直把香烟放在窗外。
I remember-- as a child, this had had a strong impression on me-- about halfway through the trip, he simply threw away all of his cigarettes.
我记得——小时候，这给我留下了深刻的印象——大约在旅途的一半时，他干脆扔掉了所有的香烟。
Never picked them up again.
再也没有拿起它们。
That was his conversion.
这就是他的转变。
That was the start of the change in his life.
那是他人生转变的开始。
And my dad continued.
我父亲继续说道。
He said, "You know, when I first went to Grace Chapel," which was the church where he had converted.
他说，“你知道，当我第一次去格雷斯教堂时”，那是他皈依的教堂。
He said, "I thought those people were crazy." And when I was eight years old, I had gone to Grace Chapel with him.
他说：“我认为那些人疯了。”当我八岁的时候，我和他一起去了格雷斯教堂。
And this was a charismatic church.
这是一座充满魅力的教堂。
The kind where people raise their hands, and they speak in tongues, and they anoint people with oil, and they pray for miraculous healings, and people roll on the ground sometimes, or dance.
人们举手，说方言，用油膏抹人们，祈祷奇迹般的治愈，有时人们在地上打滚，或者跳舞。
And my dad said, "You know, I was just staring at the stuff these people were doing, and I thought, this is crazy.
我爸爸说：“你知道，我只是盯着这些人所做的事情，我想，这太疯狂了。
But I could not ignore the love in that room, and the care they had for each other.
但我无法忽视那个房间里的爱，以及他们对彼此的关心。
And I kept going back, and I kept going back.
我一直回去，一直回去。
And I wanted it to make sense to me, and I wanted it.
我希望它对我有意义，我也想要它。
And finally one night, I prayed.
最后有一天晚上，我祈祷了。
And I said, God, if I have to cut my own head off to be happy, I will do it.
我说，上帝啊，如果我必须砍掉自己的头才能快乐，我会这么做。
So I know you've gone to college, and you've learned all these things, but here's what I know, David.
所以我知道你已经上过大学，并且已经学到了所有这些东西，但这就是我所知道的，大卫。
I followed Jesus and the lord gave me a family."
我跟随耶稣，主给了我一个家庭。”
My parents really had almost gotten divorced.
我的父母真的差点离婚了。
I remember one time I ran across a notebook where my dad and my mom had divided everything up on a piece of paper.
我记得有一次我偶然发现一本笔记本，上面我爸爸和妈妈把所有的东西都分在一张纸上。
You know, who was going to get the TV and that kind of thing.
你知道，谁会得到电视之类的东西。
They'd gotten.
他们得到了。
that close.
这么近。
And then my dad converted, and he said, "No, we're sticking this out.
然后我父亲改变了态度，他说：“不，我们要坚持下去。
I'm going to make this work." And it had.
我会让这件事成功。”确实如此。
And my brother, too.
还有我的兄弟。
He's deeply conservative, listens to all the right wing talk radio and so forth.
他非常保守，听所有右翼谈话广播等等。
And he's got to be convinced that I'm going to hell.
他必须确信我会下地狱。
But this one time, I was on this trip, and I was a student, and he gave me $300.
但这一次，我参加了这次旅行，我是一名学生，他给了我 300 美元。
And he said, "Don't bother repaying it."
他说：“不用费心还钱。”
And I remember looking at my dad, and I thought-- had sort of expected to argue like I had with my brother-in-law.
我记得看着我的父亲，我想——有点期待像我和我的姐夫那样争论。
Not to win, but to come to some kind of armistice, some kind of truce where we're like, "Well, we'll agree to disagree, but I see your point.
不是为了获胜，而是为了达成某种停战协议，某种休战协议，我们会说：“好吧，我们会同意不同意，但我明白你的观点。
It's a good point." I hadn't expected to lose completely.
这是一个很好的观点。”没想到我会彻底输掉。
Because you can't argue with decency.
因为你不能与正派争论。
You can't argue with goodness.
你无法与善良争论。
The thing about the Bible is, it's huge.
圣经的特点是，它很大。
I could poke at it because I could pick at anything I wanted-- you know, talking snakes, virgin birth.
我可以戳它，因为我可以戳任何我想要的东西——你知道，会说话的蛇，处女的诞生。
But eventually, I came around to thinking, well, maybe religion doesn't have to be consistent.
但最终，我开始思考，也许宗教不必保持一致。
Maybe you can just like it enough for it to be good.
也许你只要喜欢它就够了。
Maybe religion can be something more like-- like, I'm a big Star Trek fan.
也许宗教可以更像是——比如，我是《星际迷航》的忠实粉丝。
And if you asked me, I would say, I love Star Trek.
如果你问我，我会说，我喜欢《星际迷航》。
But if you asked me to defend individual episodes, I would be at a loss, because I can't go to bat for everything Star Trek did.
但如果你让我为个别剧集辩护，我会不知所措，因为我无法为《星际迷航》所做的一切辩护。
I just love the concept.
我就是喜欢这个概念。
And maybe religion could be like that.
也许宗教就是这样。
So what I said to my dad was, "Oh, look, here comes the waitress." And we got our Sprite, and had our hamburgers, and we looked at each other, raised the glass, had a bite.
所以我对爸爸说的是：“哦，看，女服务员来了。”我们喝了雪碧，吃了汉堡，我们互相看了看，举起玻璃杯，咬了一口。
And my dad didn't know this, but we were having communion.
我父亲不知道这一点，但我们正在进行圣餐。
Dave Dickerson.
戴夫·迪克森.
He's the author of a book of short stories like this one called House of Cards.
他是一本短篇小说集的作者，比如《纸牌屋》。
[MUSIC - "CHRISTIANS AND PAGANS" BY DAR WILLIAMS]
[音乐 - DAR WILLIAMS 的《基督徒与异教徒》]
Act Two, Kings Do Not Fold.
第二幕，K 不弃牌。
What's a dictator?
什么是独裁者？
Yes, an absolute ruler, yes, a tyrant, yes to all that.
是的，一个绝对的统治者，是的，一个暴君，是的，所有这些。
But a dictator is also, in the vast majority of cases, someone who is absolutely, fundamentally not leaving.
但在绝大多数情况下，独裁者也是绝对、从根本上不会离开的人。
30 years in office, 40 years in office, these are not people who know when it is time to step aside.
任职30年、任职40年，这些人都不知道什么时候该下台。
Witness the last few months of news from the Mideast, which Nancy Updike has some thoughts about.
看看过去几个月来自中东的新闻，南希·厄普代克对此有一些想法。
Looking at one dictator at a time, it's easy to get caught up in what's unique about him.
每次看一位独裁者，我们很容易被他的独特之处所吸引。
For instance, some specific brutality his regime favors-- Kim Jong-il's forced labor camps.
例如，他的政权所青睐的一些具体暴行——金正日的强迫劳动营。
Or you can get distracted by his eccentricities-- Muammar Qaddafi's very special, no light reflecting black hair dye, Saddam Hussein's side career as a novelist.
或者你可能会因为他的怪癖而分心——穆阿迈尔·卡扎菲非常特别，不反光的黑色染发剂，萨达姆·侯赛因作为小说家的副业。
But I've been pretty glued to the coverage of all these Middle East dictators who've been under siege for the last few months.
但我一直非常关注过去几个月受到围困的所有中东独裁者的报道。
And the other day, after listening to yet another speech by one of them, I drew up a rough checklist.
有一天，在听了其中一位演讲者的另一场演讲后，我草拟了一份粗略的清单。
I want to read it here.
我想在这里读它。
I've been calling it, "the 11 Stages of Mideast Dictator Damage Control." It's a working title.
我一直将其称为“中东独裁者损害控制的11个阶段”。这是一个工作标题。
And not every dictator does them exactly the same way, or does them in exactly the same order.
并不是每个独裁者都以完全相同的方式或以完全相同的顺序做事。
But in general, it goes like this.
但总的来说，事情是这样的。
Stage one, shut down the internet.
第一阶段，关闭互联网。
Stage two, send thugs.
第二阶段，派出暴徒。
On foot, or on horseback if you're in Egypt.
如果您在埃及，可以步行或骑马。
Stage three, attack and arrest journalists.
第三阶段，攻击并逮捕记者。
Stage four, shoot people.
第四阶段，射人。
Stage five, promise to investigate who shot people.
第五阶段，承诺调查枪杀者。
Stage six, do a meaningless political reshuffle.
第六阶段，进行无意义的政治洗牌。
Stage seven, blame Al Jazeera.
第七阶段，责怪半岛电视台。
Stage eight, organize paid demonstrations in favor of your regime.
第八阶段，组织有偿示威以支持你的政权。
Stage nine, make a condescending speech about how much you love the youth.
第九阶段，发表一个居高临下的演讲，表达你有多爱年轻人。
Stage 10, threaten that the country will fall into chaos without you.
第十阶段，威胁说如果没有你，国家就会陷入混乱。
Stage 11, blame foreign agitators.
第11阶段，指责外国煽动者。
There is actually a stage 12, but it's the one the dictators never want to get to, because it is leave.
实际上有第12阶段，但这是独裁者永远不想进入的阶段，因为它是脱欧。
Get out.
出去。
I called a guy named Marc Lynch to make sure I wasn't hallucinating these 11 stages repeating in one dictatorship after another.
我打电话给一个名叫马克·林奇的人，以确保我没有产生幻觉，这 11 个阶段在一个又一个独裁政权中重复出现。
Marc runs the Middle East Studies program at George Washington University.
马克在乔治华盛顿大学负责中东研究项目。
He blogs at foreignpolicy.com.
他在foreignpolicy.com 上发表博客。
When I started reading him my list, he got excited and put the phone down for a second.
当我开始向他读我的清单时，他很兴奋并挂断了电话。
Hold on, hold on, hold on.
坚持住，坚持住，坚持住。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Yes.
是的。
He went over to his computer, because he's actually been seeing a bunch of these lists in the Arabic language media, plus tons of comments about the weirdly similar script these dictators seem to be following.
他走到电脑前，因为他实际上在阿拉伯语媒体上看到了一堆这样的列表，还有大量关于这些独裁者似乎遵循的奇怪相似脚本的评论。
Every day, people are weighing in from Syria, Egypt, Bahrain, Libya, Yemen.
每天都有来自叙利亚、埃及、巴林、利比亚、也门的人们参与进来。
It's been all over Twitter and Facebook.
Twitter 和 Facebook 上都流传着这样的消息。
Activists from the Middle East, they've all noticed it.
来自中东的活动人士，他们都注意到了这一点。
And so you'll see people from Yemen saying, Ali Abdullah Saleh is now on stage three, he's begun to meet the protesters' demands, but he's refusing to resign.
所以你会看到也门人说，阿里·阿卜杜拉·萨利赫现在处于第三阶段，他已经开始满足抗议者的要求，但他拒绝辞职。
When the unrest was beginning to get especially heavy in Syria, there were a lot of people asking, why hasn't Bashar al-Assad said anything?
当叙利亚的骚乱开始变得特别严重时，很多人问，为什么巴沙尔·阿萨德不表态？
Why hasn't he given a speech?
他为什么不发表讲话？
And the joke that was making the rounds was, "Well, he doesn't want to give speech number one, because he knows that after the third speech, he's gone."
流传甚广的笑话是：“好吧，他不想发表第一次演讲，因为他知道第三次演讲后，他就走了。”
And that joke raises the central question here.
这个笑话提出了这里的核心问题。
With two dictators, Egypt's and Tunisia's, already thrown out by their people, why would any other dictators keep plodding through the same 11 stages the previous ones did?
埃及和突尼斯这两个独裁者已经被人民赶了出来，为什么其他独裁者还要继续像以前的独裁者那样缓慢地经历 11 个阶段呢？
I think that Arab leaders have grown accustomed over decades to not having to respond to their people.
我认为阿拉伯领导人几十年来已经习惯了不必回应他们的人民。
And they're not used to having to really take seriously what their people say, and I think that decades of that really breeds this tin ear.
他们不习惯认真对待别人所说的话，我认为几十年的时间确实滋生了这种锡耳朵。
When they're finally forced to listen, they're unable to hear.
当他们最终被迫倾听时，他们却听不到。
The fact that they're unable to hear and take seriously their protesters' demands is clearest in the speeches these dictators have been giving.
他们无法倾听并认真对待抗议者的要求，这一事实在这些独裁者的演讲中最为明显。
Each one is full of these bizarre echoes of the others.
每一个都充满了其他人的这些奇怪的回声。
The empty promises of reform that nobody believes.
没有人相信的空洞的改革承诺。
The promises to step down sometime in the future.
承诺将在未来某个时候辞职。
The claim that we are with the people, we hear what you're saying.
我们声称我们与人民同在，我们听到了你们的意见。
All of these have become so frequent and so repetitive, that as soon as people hear them, it's like, "Oh, there he goes again.
所有这些都变得如此频繁和重复，以至于人们一听到它们，就会感觉，“哦，他又来了。
He's saying the same things that Ben Ali said, the same things that Mubarak said."
他说的和本·阿里说的一样，和穆巴拉克说的一样。”
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Nancy Updike So here is former Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak making the speech that, in retrospect, seems to have become the template for other dictators, although no one's been able to reproduce Mubarak's exact blend of condescension and menace.
[说阿拉伯语] 南希·厄普代克 埃及前总统胡斯尼·穆巴拉克的演讲，回想起来，似乎已成为其他独裁者的模板，尽管没有人能够准确地重现穆巴拉克那种居高临下和威胁的风格。
Here he is doing step five from the list, promising to investigate who shot people.
在这里，他正在执行清单中的第五步，承诺调查枪杀者。
I tell you that all those who're injured, their blood will not go down the drain.
我告诉你，所有受伤的人，他们的血都不会白流。
And I confirm that I will penalize all those responsible, and I will hold accountable those who committed crimes against the rights of our youth.
我确认，我将惩罚所有负有责任的人，我将追究那些侵犯我们年轻人权利的人的责任。
The youth.
青年人。
That's stage nine, talking about his love for the youth.
这是第九阶段，谈论他对年轻人的爱。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator The citizens, the children of Egypt, men and women, I address you today.
[阿拉伯语] 翻译 公民们，埃及的孩子们，无论男女，我今天向你们讲话。
To the youth of Egypt, I address you all with a speech from the heart, a speech from father to his children, to his sons and daughters.
对于埃及的年轻人，我向你们所有人发表衷心的讲话，这是父亲对他的孩子们、他的儿女们的讲话。
I tell you, I take pride in you, dreaming of a bright future and shaping such a future.
我告诉你，我为你感到骄傲，梦想着美好的未来，塑造着这样的未来。
Utter nonsense delivered with utter conviction.
完全是胡言乱语，却带着绝对的信念。
By the time Mubarak spoke these words, more than 300 people had been killed during the protests in Egypt.
当穆巴拉克说出这番话时，埃及的抗议活动已造成300多人死亡。
Of course, nothing Mubarak said saved him from progressing to stage 12 and leaving.
当然，穆巴拉克没有说什么可以阻止他进入第 12 阶段并离开。
But other dictators learned by watching what happened to him, and they've managed to hold on by just repeating and escalating steps two through eight-- the thugs, the political reshuffles, the paid counter-demonstrations, the shootings and killings.
但其他独裁者通过观察发生在他身上的事情来学习，他们通过重复和升级第二步到第八步——暴徒、政治洗牌、有偿反示威、枪击和杀戮，成功地坚持了下来。
The big difference in a lot of the cases-- between Tunisia and Egypt on the one hand and what we're seeing now-- is that, for the most part, both in Tunisia and Egypt, the army refrained from carrying out massive violence against protesters.
许多案例的最大区别（一方面是突尼斯和埃及之间的情况，以及我们现在所看到的情况）是，在大多数情况下，在突尼斯和埃及，军队都没有对抗议者实施大规模暴力。
And one of the lessons that the Arab dictators learned is that that doesn't save them.
阿拉伯独裁者得到的教训之一是，这并不能拯救他们。
And so from Bahrain to Syria, to Yemen, to Libya, what we see in the next round is the willingness to unleash deadly force to stay in power.
因此，从巴林到叙利亚，到也门，再到利比亚，我们在下一轮中看到的是释放致命武力以维持权力的意愿。
And it's one of the reasons why the excitement of the Arab world back in January and February has given way to the grimmer realities that we have right now.
这也是为什么一月和二月阿拉伯世界的兴奋被我们现在所面临的严峻现实所取代的原因之一。
It is grim.
形势严峻。
There are dead and jailed protesters in six countries now.
现在有六个国家有抗议者死亡和被监禁。
And most of these dictators aren't going anywhere.
大多数独裁者不会去任何地方。
Nancy Updike's one of the producers of our show.
南希·厄普代克是我们节目的制片人之一。
Coming up, they tried to make me go to rehab, and I said, no, no, no, I will go to Minnesota.
快到了，他们试图让我去康复中心，我说，不，不，不，我要去明尼苏达。
That is in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our show, of course, we choose a theme, bringing you different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，我们的节目每周都会选择一个主题，为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's show, Know When To Fold 'Em, stories of people who wait way too long before folding their cards, dropping out, stepping aside, stepping down.
今天的节目《知道何时弃牌》讲述了人们在弃牌之前等待太久、退出、靠边站、下台的故事。
Sometimes, to be fair, out of sheer confusion as to what's best.
有时，公平地说，纯粹是出于对什么是最好的困惑。
We've arrived at act three of our show.
我们已经到了演出的第三幕了。
Act Three, Gin Rummy.
第三幕，金罗美。
One of the principles of treating alcoholism is that there's hope for everyone.
治疗酗酒的原则之一是让每个人都有希望。
Everyone still has the possibility of quitting, you're not supposed to give up on anybody, you never fold your cards.
每个人仍然有放弃的可能，你不应该放弃任何人，你永远不会弃牌。
But in Saint Paul, and a few other places too, they have something that clinically they call housing for chronic late stage alcoholics, but most people just call a wet house.
但在圣保罗和其他一些地方，他们有一些临床上称为慢性晚期酗酒者住房的东西，但大多数人只是称之为潮湿的房子。
The idea is, alcoholics live there-- you have to be an alcoholic to get in, people are referred from detox centers-- and they let them continue to drink.
这个想法是，酗酒者住在那里——你必须是一个酒鬼才能进去，人们是从戒毒中心转介过来的——他们让他们继续喝酒。
Which is the opposite of most shelters.
这与大多数庇护所相反。
Most shelters, if you're caught drinking you are out, at least until you sober up.
大多数收容所，如果你被发现喝酒了，你就会被赶出去，至少在你清醒之前是这样。
Same goes for rehab centers, and treatment programs-- if you're drunk, you're gone.
康复中心和治疗项目也是如此——如果你喝醉了，你就走了。
This idea of a place where drunks can stay drunk and get housing makes a lot of people angry.
这种让醉汉可以喝醉并获得住房的想法让很多人感到愤怒。
The one in Saint Paul, called St. Anthony Residence, is run by Catholic charities, but with some state money in there, too.
位于圣保罗的一所名为圣安东尼住宅 (St. Anthony Residence) 的住宅由天主教慈善机构运营，但也有一些国家资金投入其中。
Reporter Marc Sanchez visited St. Anthony House to see how it works.
记者马克·桑切斯 (Marc Sanchez) 参观了圣安东尼之家，了解其运作方式。
There're no guys passed out in front of St. Anthony Residence when I pull up.
当我停车时，圣安东尼住宅前没有人昏倒。
No broken bottles on the sidewalk, either.
人行道上也没有破瓶子。
The building itself looks like it should have a sign on the outside advertising loft apartments.
这座建筑本身看起来应该在外面有一个阁楼公寓广告牌。
Inside, it's surprisingly nice free housing.
里面是令人惊讶的免费住房。
60 rooms, quite and orderly.
60间客房，安静有序。
Every guy who lives here-- they're all men, by the way-- each guy gets his own room with a lock on the door.
每个住在这里的人——顺便说一句，他们都是男人——每个人都有自己的房间，门上有锁。
Breakfast, lunch, and dinner are served up by the kitchen staff.
厨房工作人员提供早餐、午餐和晚餐。
Or if you miss a meal, you can grab a sandwich anytime you want.
或者，如果您错过了一顿饭，您可以随时享用三明治。
Each resident collects $89 a month in general assistance from the state, and after buying essentials like razors and toothpaste, several of the guys told me that at least half their money goes towards booze.
每个居民每月从国家获得 89 美元的一般援助，在购买剃须刀和牙膏等必需品后，其中几个人告诉我，他们至少一半的钱都用来买酒了。
Well, I have to tell you, about 85% of my time I spend drinking.
好吧，我必须告诉你，我大约 85% 的时间都在喝酒。
That's Nick.
那是尼克。
And for privacy's sake, I'm only going to use his and other residents' first names.
出于隐私考虑，我只会使用他和其他居民的名字。
On days that you are drinking, when do you typically start drinking?
在您喝酒的日子里，您通常什么时候开始喝酒？
Whenever.
每当。
You know, when the liquor stores open usually is a good time for me.
你知道，酒类商店开门的时候对我来说通常是一个好时机。
And if I have booze on me, it's always nice to have a drink when you wake up, and you're-- at 3 o'clock in the morning.
如果我身上有酒，当你醒来时喝一杯总是好的，而且你是在凌晨 3 点。
It doesn't matter what time of day it is.
一天中的什么时间并不重要。
You're not allowed to have booze in your room, so if it's 3:00 in the morning, he has to go to a little patio out back, the one place here where you can drink.
房间里不准喝酒，所以如果是凌晨 3:00，他就得去后面的一个小露台，那是你可以喝酒的地方。
If guys have any alcohol on them when they come home, they check it in at the front desk, where someone's on duty 24 hours.
如果男士回家时身上有酒精，他们会到前台办理登记，前台会有人 24 小时值班。
The staff member will take out a big black marker and tag the bottle with its owner's last name.
工作人员会拿出一个黑色大记号笔，在瓶子上标上主人的姓氏。
The alcohol is simply placed on a table in a room behind the front desk.
酒精只是放在前台后面房间的桌子上。
There's no lock and key.
没有锁和钥匙。
And you can see, there is very little here-- one, two, three, four, five.
你可以看到，这里的东西很少——一、二、三、四、五。
Six bottles and two 12 packs.
六瓶和两瓶12包。
And they'll put your name on it, and when you come back you check it out, and you go out to the patio and have your drink.
他们会把你的名字写在上面，当你回来时，你会检查一下，然后走到露台上喝一杯。
The guy showing me around is Bill Hockenberger.
带我四处参观的人是比尔·霍肯伯格。
He's the program manager at St. Anthony.
他是圣安东尼学院的项目经理。
Bill's a recovering alcoholic, and he used to run with some of these guys in his drinking days.
比尔是一个正在康复的酒鬼，他在喝酒的时候经常和这些人一起跑步。
He's been sober for almost 16 years now, but he says he could have easily ended up living here.
他已经戒酒近 16 年了，但他说他本来可以轻松地住在这里。
We go to his office, and before I even have a chance to sit down, he goes to a metal filing cabinet and pulls out a yellow candy box with a picture of a cartoon cactus on it.
我们去了他的办公室，我还没来得及坐下，他就走到一个金属文件柜前，拿出一个黄色糖果盒，上面有卡通仙人掌的图片。
It's filled with photos.
里面装满了照片。
These here are just my daily reminders of some of my drinking days here.
这些只是我在这里喝酒的一些日子的日常提醒。
You can see where the-- a couple of the fights that I've been in, the results of some of that.
你可以看到我参加过的几场比赛，以及其中一些比赛的结果。
You can see my jaw swollen out of shape there, my eyes totally black, and the whites of my eyes are covered with blood, bruised down the side there.
你可以看到我的下巴肿得变形了，我的眼睛完全变黑了，我的眼白布满了血，一侧淤青了。
Was that common for the time?
这在当时很常见吗？
Getting in fights like that?
就这样打架吗？
Not to be on the receiving end of it like that, no. No, that was why I think I took pictures of this, because this was pretty much one of the battles that I was never too happy with.
不要成为这样的接收端，不。不，这就是为什么我认为我拍了这张照片，因为这几乎是我一直不太满意的战斗之一。
I noticed you keep the pictures in this candy box, is there a significance to that?
我注意到你把照片放在这个糖果盒里，这有什么意义吗？
No, I just keep them close by me.
不，我只是让它们靠近我。
This is for some time when I want to remind myself, or let a resident know that I've also been down the road with them.
一段时间以来，我想提醒自己，或者让居民知道我也和他们一起走过了这条路。
Bill's story rivals anyone's at St. Anthony.
比尔的故事可以与圣安东尼学院的任何人相媲美。
It wasn't until his body completely shut down-- his liver was failing, he fell into a coma for nine days-- that he quit for good.
直到他的身体完全停止运转——他的肝脏衰竭，他陷入昏迷九天——他才永远戒烟。
And you can see how totally yellow-- I look like a banana.
你可以看到我完全是黄色的——我看起来像一根香蕉。
Bill's quick to point out that St. Anthony's services aren't treatment.
比尔很快指出，圣安东尼的服务不是治疗。
But there's an on-site nurse who administers preventative care twice a week.
但有一名现场护士每周两次进行预防性护理。
Residents also meet with counselors who set goals like getting a state ID or making a trip to the dentist.
居民还会与顾问会面，他们设定了诸如获得州身份证或去看牙医等目标。
And if staff notices a pattern in someone coming in and falling over drunk, they'll step in.
如果工作人员发现有人进来喝醉了，他们就会介入。
We're not going to let a resident come in here and drink to excess here.
我们不会让居民来这里酗酒。
We're here to monitor their drinking a bit and make sure that they don't endanger themselves by drinking rubbing alcohol.
我们来这里是为了监控他们的饮酒情况，确保他们不会因为喝外用酒精而危及自己。
They're not drinking mouthwash.
他们不喝漱口水。
We try to get them to taper off onto some beer if they're drinking vodka and they have a hard time walking or being mobile.
如果他们喝伏特加并且行走或移动有困难，我们会尝试让他们逐渐减少喝啤酒的量。
We'll talk to them a little bit, and their goal is, "Listen, next time you go to the liquor store, instead of buying a half a gallon, why don't you try buying a pint?
我们会和他们谈谈，他们的目标是，“听着，下次你去酒类商店时，为什么不尝试买一品脱而不是买半加仑呢？
Try to drink in moderation a little bit here."
在这里尽量少喝一点。”
It seems like total hopelessness and just giving up on people.
这似乎完全是绝望的，只是放弃了人们。
Like, you're not really worth fighting for.
就像，你真的不值得为之奋斗。
You're not really worth recovery anyway.
无论如何，你并不真正值得康复。
So, bottoms up.
所以，自下而上。
Nell Hurley is another person who went from drinking to trying to help drinkers.
内尔·赫尔利（Nell Hurley）是另一个从酗酒转向帮助酗酒者的人。
She runs the Minnesota Recovery Connection.
她负责管理明尼苏达恢复连接。
They're basically the yellow pages for recovery in the state.
它们基本上是该州恢复的黄页。
When word got out about St. Anthony in the recovery community, people were upset.
当圣安东尼在康复社区的消息传出时，人们感到很不安。
She says it's hard for her to justify not stepping in.
她说她很难找到不介入的理由。
I mean, I'm all about keeping people safe and giving someone a blanket.
我的意思是，我所做的一切都是为了确保人们的安全并为他们提供一条毯子。
I don't at all want to come off like, "If they're going to drink, let them be cold," or whatever.
我根本不想说“如果他们要喝酒，就让他们冷吧”之类的。
But there should be more of an attempt to rehabilitate or guide someone into recovery.
但应该更多地尝试康复或引导某人康复。
The minute somebody wants to go to a program, we have referral places for them.
一旦有人想要参加某个项目，我们就会为他们提供推荐名额。
Again, Bill Hockenberger.
又是比尔·霍肯伯格。
Bill Hockenberger We have an AA right down the corner here, and I will drive you there personally and see that you make it to AA meetings.
Bill Hockenberger 我们这里的拐角处有一个 AA，我会亲自开车送您去那里，并确保您参加 AA 会议。
And we do have people that do recover out of here, that do take in their own programs, and we support them 100%.
我们确实有人从这里康复，他们确实接受了自己的计划，我们100%支持他们。
You know, I can't help but not say this.
你知道，我忍不住不说这句话。
The residents here, the clients here, have been through treatment so many times that they know the program better than the counselors do.
这里的居民、这里的客户已经接受过多次治疗，他们比咨询师更了解这个项目。
I mean, they have the tools and what it takes to stay sober, but they just can't-- they can't do it.
我的意思是，他们拥有保持清醒的工具和方法，但他们就是做不到——他们做不到。
I don't want to ever give up hope.
我永远不想放弃希望。
I don't want to ever give up hope on anybody.
我不想放弃对任何人的希望。
I think people think that by letting them drink, you are giving up hope.
我认为人们认为让他们喝酒就意味着放弃希望。
Well, I'm not certainly one of them.
嗯，我当然不是其中之一。
If they have a better plan, than I'd certainly like to hear it.
如果他们有更好的计划，我当然很想听听。
The biggest argument for a wet house like St. Anthony is one I heard from a resident named Paul.
对于像圣安东尼这样的湿房子，最大的争论是我从一位名叫保罗的居民那里听到的。
And it comes down to this: before he came here, Paul used to sleep under a bridge, even in the winter.
归根结底是这样的：在来到这里之前，保罗经常睡在桥下，即使是在冬天也是如此。
Depending on who you know down there, it can be rough.
取决于你在那里认识的人，这可能会很艰难。
If you know people down there who can help watch your back.
如果你认识那里的人可以帮助你照顾你。
I just don't understand, like a week like last week, where it was 30 below.
我只是不明白，就像上周一样，那里的气温低于 30。
Like I don't--
就像我不一样——
When it got that cold, I'd go over to Dorothy Day.
当天气变得那么冷时，我会去多萝西戴。
That's another shelter?
那是另一个避难所吗？
Paul Yeah.
保罗 是的。
I don't like Dorothy Day.
我不喜欢多萝西·戴。
Because if you sleep too hard, you could end up having your backpack stolen.
因为如果你睡得太熟，你的背包可能会被偷。
Because you've got people right next to you, just like as close as me and you.
因为有人就在你身边，就像我和你一样亲密。
And some people down there ain't the cleanest.
那里的有些人并不是最干净的。
But if we didn't have this place, we'd be in the streets, you know, causing problems.
但如果我们没有这个地方，我们就会流落街头，造成问题。
The police would have to deal with us, the emergency rooms, courts.
警察将不得不与我们、急诊室、法庭打交道。
It helps a whole lot.
它有很大帮助。
Do you ever think that there's going to be a day that you'll leave here?
你有没有想过有一天你会离开这里？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我不知道。
There ain't no other place to go.
没有其他地方可去。
As for how many guys make it into treatment from St. Anthony, they tally that up once a year.
至于有多少人接受了圣安东尼奥的治疗，他们每年都会统计一次。
In their 2010 report, out of the 87 guys who were served, only 10 went into treatment.
在他们 2010 年的报告中，在接受治疗的 87 人中，只有 10 人接受了治疗。
After all, that isn't their goal here.
毕竟，这不是他们来这里的目的。
And when I visited, I had this feeling-- it's nice and clean and everyone's respectful of each other, but it's really sad.
当我参观时，我有这样的感觉——这里很干净，每个人都互相尊重，但这真的很难过。
Walking down the hallway I could hear muffled TVs playing in their rooms, and I got the sense that people are slowly killing themselves behind their closed doors.
沿着走廊走，我能听到他们房间里低沉的电视播放声，我感觉到人们正在紧闭的门后慢慢自杀。
During that year when 10 guys went into treatment, three other residents died.
那一年，当 10 个人接受治疗时，另外 3 名居民死亡。
When that happens, Deacon James Meyer comes in for services.
当这种情况发生时，执事詹姆斯·迈耶就会前来提供服务。
Everyone calls him Deacon Jim.
大家都叫他执事吉姆。
For some, this is the end of the road for them.
对于某些人来说，这是他们的路的尽头。
And they may die here.
他们可能会死在这里。
They're never going to make that choice and that connection, say, "I'm ready to get out of here." I like drinking more than I dislike being here or giving up the things I've given up in my life."
他们永远不会做出这样的选择和联系，说：“我已经准备好离开这里了。”我更喜欢喝酒，而不是不喜欢待在这里或放弃我一生中放弃的东西。”
Yeah, it is hard.
是的，这很难。
It is hard.
这很难。
But we care for them where they are.
但我们在他们所在的地方关心他们。
If they're ready to move, if they're not ready to move, that's really not our call here.
如果他们准备好搬家，如果他们还没有准备好搬家，那真的不是我们的决定。
Our call is to love them.
我们的使命是爱他们。
Maybe this is obvious, but trying to care for alcoholics is messy.
也许这是显而易见的，但试图照顾酗酒者却很混乱。
When I was in his office, Bill showed me a letter from a resident who had checked into St. Anthony in October of 1992, almost 20 years ago.
当我在他的办公室时，比尔给我看了一封来自一位居民的来信，该居民于 1992 年 10 月入住圣安东尼，距今已近 20 年。
Last summer, Bill coaxed him into trying a treatment facility up north, but in the letter, the guy told Bill that he was done, and he wanted to move back to St. Anthony in the spring.
去年夏天，比尔哄骗他尝试去北方的治疗机构，但在信中，那家伙告诉比尔他已经完成了，他想在春天搬回圣安东尼。
Bill wrote back and told the guy he was proud of him for getting as far as he had, and that he should try to stay where he is.
比尔回信告诉那个人，他为他所取得的成就感到自豪，并且他应该努力留在现在的位置。
He should stick with the program.
他应该坚持这个计划。
But sure, he said, he'd take him back.
但他说，他肯定会把他带回来。
A month later, the guy moved back into St. Anthony.
一个月后，那家伙搬回圣安东尼。
He's there now, drinking again.
他现在又在那里喝酒了。
Marc Sanchez is a producer from Minnesota Public Radio, he normally works on a feature called Minnesota Sounds.
马克·桑切斯 (Marc Sanchez) 是明尼苏达公共广播电台的制作人，他通常负责制作名为“明尼苏达之声”的专题节目。
[MUSIC - "SORRY YOU'RE SICK" BY TED HAWKINS]
[音乐 - 泰德·霍金斯的《对不起，你生病了》]
Act Four, Solitaire and Everything's Wild.
第四幕，纸牌和一切狂野。
Now this story of tenacity and not giving up, and then, suddenly, I would say kind of heroically, giving up completely, and laying down the cards in an unprecedented, kind of amazing way.
现在这个关于坚韧和不放弃的故事，然后，突然，我会说有点英雄般，完全放弃，并以前所未有的、令人惊奇的方式放下牌。
This story happens in Brazil, in a part of Brazil that was all rain forest, almost nobody lived there until the 1970s.
这个故事发生在巴西，巴西的一个地区全是雨林，直到 20 世纪 70 年代几乎没有人住在那里。
Then development came very quickly, a million people in just a couple decades moved there, cutting down rain forest, replacing it with logging operations and ranching, building towns and cities.
然后发展很快，短短几十年内就有一百万人搬到那里，砍伐雨林，取而代之的是伐木作业和牧场，建设城镇和城市。
Monte Reel was the South American correspondent for the Washington Post when he first heard about what happened.
蒙特里尔第一次听说发生的事情时是《华盛顿邮报》的南美记者。
It all started as a rumor going around logging camps back in the mid-1990s.
这一切都始于 20 世纪 90 年代中期伐木营地中流传的谣言。
And the scouts begin telling the story of a, quote unquote, "wild man" who lived out in the forest.
侦察兵开始讲述一个住在森林里的“野人”的故事。
And he didn't appear to have any tie to anyone else at all.
而且他似乎与其他任何人都没有任何联系。
He appeared to be completely alone.
他看起来完全是孤独一人。
And the story of this started to go around these logging camps and into some towns, and it finally caught the ear of a guy named Marcelo dos Santos who worked for the Brazilian government for FUNAI, which is the equivalent of the Bureau of Indigenous Affairs.
这个故事开始在这些伐木场和一些城镇流传，最后引起了一个名叫马塞洛·多斯桑托斯的人的耳朵，他在巴西政府的 FUNAI 工作，相当于原住民事务局。
And his job was to try to find any isolated tribes that remained in that area and protect them from development.
他的工作是试图找到留在该地区的任何孤立部落并保护他们免受开发。
So he heard this rumor and he started to investigate.
于是他听到了这个传闻，开始调查。
And they would go out on periodic expeditions to try to find this guy.
他们会定期出去探险，试图找到这个人。
The first thing that they found was a hut.
他们首先发现的是一间小屋。
The company cook at the logging camp took them to this hut that he had seen.
伐木场的连队厨师带他们去了他见过的这间小屋。
And the hut was very small.
而且小屋很小。
It was made out of palm wood and thatch, and it was only big enough for one person to live in.
它是用棕榈木和茅草建造的，面积只够一个人住。
And in the middle of this hut, the strange, kind of identifying feature, was a hole that was about five and a half feet deep.
在这座小屋的中间，有一个奇怪的、有识别性的特征，那就是一个大约五英尺半深的洞。
It was a rectangular hole.
那是一个长方形的洞。
In this tiny, tiny space?
在这个很小很小的空间里？
Monte Reel Yeah.
蒙特瑞尔 是的。
And none of these guys had ever seen anything like this among the other tribes.
而且这些家伙在其他部落中都没有见过这样的事情。
They really didn't know what it was or what purpose it served.
他们真的不知道它是什么或它有什么用途。
And so they continued looking, and they spent, actually, a couple of months going out into this area of the forest.
所以他们继续寻找，实际上，他们花了几个月的时间进入这片森林。
And they started to find other huts.
他们开始寻找其他小屋。
He had basically built them quickly and abandoned them as the loggers got closer.
他基本上很快就建造好了它们，并在伐木工人靠近时放弃了它们。
So he was kind of on the run.
所以他有点在逃。
So this team led by Marcelo dos Santos would head out on these missions to find this guy.
因此，由马塞洛·多斯桑托斯领导的这个团队将前往执行这些任务来寻找这个人。
And they were scared that if ranchers or developers get to him first, they'll do to him what they usually do-- kill him.
他们担心，如果牧场主或开发商先找到他，他们就会像平常那样对待他——杀死他。
The team wants to reach the guy and then figure out a safe place where other tribes live that maybe they could relocate him to.
该团队希望找到这个人，然后找到其他部落居住的安全地方，也许他们可以将他重新安置到那里。
So they're heading out into the rain forest, but making first contact with any isolated tribe is incredibly dangerous.
所以他们正前往雨林，但与任何孤立的部落的第一次接触都是非常危险的。
Often there's violence.
经常有暴力行为。
Monte Reel says that 120 in this government agency FUNAI have been killed over the years.
Monte Reel 表示，多年来，FUNAI 政府机构中有 120 人被杀。
The team assumes that the guy that they're looking for, who they call the Indio-- the Indian-- doesn't speak any language that they know.
该团队假设他们正在寻找的人（他们称之为 Indio）不会说他们懂得的任何语言。
So as they walk through the jungle, they make these whistling sounds so that he doesn't think that they're trying to sneak up on him.
因此，当他们穿过丛林时，他们会发出口哨声，这样他就不会认为他们试图偷偷接近他。
The leave gifts for the guy-- seeds, machete, stuff he might find useful-- hoping that he understands that they're leaving this as gifts specifically for him.
他们给这个人留下礼物——种子、砍刀、他可能觉得有用的东西——希望他明白他们是专门给他留下这些礼物的。
It's really, really tricky.
这真的非常非常棘手。
And there's no real guidebook for how to how to act in that situation.
并且没有真正的指南来指导如何在这种情况下采取行动。
What's their plan on how they're going to communicate with him?
他们计划如何与他沟通？
Do you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
Did you talk to them about that?
你跟他们谈过这件事吗？
Yeah.
是的。
In this particular case, they actually brought along Pura Kanoe.
在这个特殊情况下，他们实际上带来了普拉·卡诺（Pura Kanoe）。
He was a member of the Kanoe tribe that they had discovered just months before.
他是他们几个月前才发现的卡诺部落的成员。
So they brought him on those early expeditions hoping that he might be able to communicate with the Indian if they had an encounter.
因此，他们带他参加了早期的探险活动，希望如果他们遇到印第安人，他能够与印第安人交流。
Or at the very least that he might make the encounter more friendly or more natural.
或者至少他可以让这次相遇变得更加友好或者更加自然。
Then, in late 1996, they got their first break.
然后，在 1996 年底，他们迎来了第一次突破。
Satellite photos showed a clearing in the rain forest where there was no reason for a clearing to exist.
卫星照片显示雨林中有一片空地，但这里没有理由存在空地。
When they go there, they find the remains of a village, over a dozen huts.
当他们到达那里时，他们发现了一个村庄的遗迹，有十几间小屋。
But they were built in the same style as this particular Indian's.
但它们的建造风格与这个特定的印第安人的风格相同。
And they each had those holes, the same kind of holes inside the huts.
他们每个人都有那些洞，和小屋里的洞一样。
So after investigating that, they believed that this was the site of the village that he had come from.
所以经过调查之后，他们相信这就是他来的那个村子的所在地。
The team assumed that everybody in the village had been slaughtered, which can make the guy even more wary of outsiders, less interested in being found.
研究小组假设村里的每个人都被屠杀了，这可能会让这个家伙对外人更加警惕，对被发现更不感兴趣。
So talk about what happens when they finally see him in person for the first time.
那么，谈谈当他们最终第一次见到他本人时会发生什么。
The first time that they saw him, it was a group of, I believe, three people.
他们第一次见到他时，我相信是一群人，三个人。
And they were walking through the forest, and they saw him kneeling down, sort of in a contemplative pose.
当他们穿过森林时，他们看到他跪着，摆出一种沉思的姿势。
They approached with their palms up.
他们手掌向上靠近。
They walked very, very slowly, so as not to appear threatening at all.
他们走得非常非常慢，以免显得有威胁。
What does he look like?
他长什么样？
What can they see?
他们能看到什么？
He appears to be in his mid to late 30s.
他看起来三十多岁。
He's not wearing any clothes except for a breechcloth around his waist, dried grasses that hang down.
他没有穿任何衣服，除了腰间围着一条马裤，干草垂下来。
He has an arm band, a vegetable fiber arm band.
他有一个臂带，植物纤维臂带。
He doesn't wear body paint, and he has black hair, and he had a little bit of a mustache-- a very thin mustache that looked almost like a goatee.
他没有涂人体彩绘，有一头黑发，还有一点小胡子——很薄的小胡子，看起来几乎像山羊胡。
But as they tried to get a little closer, he heard them, and he ran back into his hut.
但当他们试图靠近一点时，他听到了他们的声音，然后跑回了自己的小屋。
And it was sort of a stand off.
这有点对峙。
And they didn't push it at that time, they didn't try to force contact.
而且当时他们并没有去推动，也没有试图去强行接触。
They figured, "Well, we'll have other opportunities for this." And they left.
他们想，“好吧，我们还有其他机会。”他们就离开了。
He went on the run.
他继续逃跑。
So you figure, a guy on foot who's technologically still somewhere in the Bronze Age, maybe, versus modern people with satellite tracking, and vehicles, and expertise-- how long could he evade them?
所以你想，一个在技术上仍处于青铜时代某个地方的步行者，与拥有卫星跟踪、车辆和专业知识的现代人相比，他能躲避他们多久？
Two years.
两年了。
It takes two full years before they spot him again.
整整两年后，他们才再次发现他。
And they are tenacious.
而且他们很顽强。
They do not give up, because they feel like time is running out.
他们不会放弃，因为他们觉得时间已经不多了。
They've got to establish a relationship with this guy so he trusts them, before anybody else finds him and kills him.
他们必须与这个人建立关系，以便他信任他们，然后其他人找到他并杀死他。
Sometimes they find huts, sometimes they find signs of him.
有时他们会找到小屋，有时会发现他的踪迹。
Finally, they see the guy himself.
最后，他们看到了那个人本人。
And they had an encounter that just was a standoff for hours and hours.
他们的遭遇只是僵持了好几个小时。
And the Indian was inside the hut, and he had an arrow, and the arrowhead was pointing out of the hut.
那个印第安人就在小屋里面，他拿着一支箭，箭头正指向小屋外面。
It's a thatch-sided hut, so the arrow could actually protrude out of the wall.
这是一间茅草屋，所以箭头实际上可以伸出墙壁。
And every now and then, he would lower the arrow, but as soon as they tried to approach closer, he would raise the arrow again.
他时不时地会放下箭，但当他们试图靠近时，他又会再次举起箭。
So it was kind of this dance back and forth.
所以这是一种来回的舞蹈。
They would try to get close, he would raise the arrow, they would back off.
他们会试图靠近，他会举起箭头，他们会后退。
They tried to give him gifts of corn and seeds.
他们试图送给他玉米和种子作为礼物。
They actually put some corn on the end of a long stick and pushed it up there, so that he could take the corn.
他们实际上把一些玉米放在一根长棍子的末端，然后把它推到那里，这样他就可以拿走玉米了。
He took the corn inside the hut and almost immediately threw it back out again.
他把玉米带进小屋，然后几乎立刻又把它扔了出去。
They would sort of crawl up towards the hut saying, "Friend, please, we're friendly." And eventually, he shot an arrow at the guy with the camera, at Vincent-- just narrowly missed his torso.
他们会爬向小屋说：“朋友，拜托，我们很友好。”最终，他向拿着相机的家伙射了一箭，射向文森特——差一点就射中了他的躯干。
And after that they decided to give up that particular attempt at contact.
之后他们决定放弃这次特殊的联系尝试。
It's such a strange encounter because he's giving them such clear signals.
这是一次如此奇怪的遭遇，因为他给了他们如此清晰的信号。
He wants them to go away the entire time.
他希望他们一直离开。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, it's funny because it was shortly after that that all of the members of the team came to this decision to change strategy completely.
是的，这很有趣，因为不久之后团队的所有成员都做出了彻底改变策略的决定。
They basically decided instead of pursuing him-- because he was on the run from them now, as well as from the developers.
他们基本上决定不追捕他——因为他现在正在逃离他们以及开发商。
There's a letter that one of the guys writes at this point.
其中一个人此时写了一封信。
Can I ask you to just read that?
我可以请你读一下吗？
It's on page 134 of your book.
它在你的书的第 134 页上。
"We feel embarrassed by our insistence in trying to contact him.
“我们坚持尝试联系他，这让我们感到尴尬。
The face of the Indian, always sullen, anxious, worried, and permanently silent, had made it clear to us that he wants to be left alone.
印度人的脸总是闷闷不乐、焦虑、忧心忡忡，而且永远保持沉默，这向我们表明他想一个人呆着。
Despite clearly demonstrating our conciliatory intentions, we continued to challenge his obvious decision.
尽管我们清楚地表明了我们的和解意图，但我们仍然对他的明显决定提出质疑。
We finally concluded that we were assailing his rights.
我们最终得出的结论是我们侵犯了他的权利。
We resolved to suspend the attempts to contact him and shift our work in another direction."
我们决定暂停与他联系的尝试，并将我们的工作转向另一个方向。”
So they not only fold their hand, they change the game.
所以他们不仅放弃了牌，还改变了游戏规则。
At the team's urging, the Brazilian government did this thing it had never done before.
在团队的敦促下，巴西政府做了这件以前从未做过的事情。
It set aside 31 square miles of forest for this one guy.
它为这个家伙留出了 31 平方英里的森林。
In Rondonia, which was going through rapid development, this was incredibly controversial, and there was a political fight over it.
在正在经历快速发展的朗多尼亚，这引起了极大的争议，并引发了一场政治斗争。
FUNAI personnel assigned to the project became such lightning rods that one after another had to be replaced.
FUNAI 负责该项目的人员变成了避雷针，不得不陆续更换。
There was a feeling in Rondonia that was kind of like a states' rights argument in our country.
朗多尼亚有一种感觉，有点像我们国家的州权利争论。
The national government of Brazil-- bureaucrats and politicians from the capital-- was making them set aside this huge swath of land for just one man, which seemed crazy to lots of people.
巴西国家政府——来自首都的官僚和政客——让他们只为一个人划出一大片土地，这对很多人来说似乎很疯狂。
But not only did the 31-square-mile refuge become the law, the law included the fact that if somebody went in and killed the lone tribesmen who lived there, the state still would not turn over the land to development, which removed the incentive to just go in and murder the guy.
但这个 31 平方英里的避难所不仅成为了法律，法律还包括这样一个事实：如果有人进去杀死了居住在那里的孤独部落成员，国家仍然不会将这片土地移交给开发，这就消除了直接进去谋杀这个人的动机。
Government teams periodically would go in and check on him to be sure he was still there and still OK.
政府团队会定期进去检查他，以确保他仍然在那里并且一切正常。
But they did not try to interact with him, which worked.
但他们并没有尝试与他互动，这很有效。
He started taking the gifts they left.
他开始拿走他们留下的礼物。
He used the machete.
他用的是砍刀。
He planted the corn seed.
他种下了玉米种子。
At one point, they actually got into a hut that he had not abandoned and they saw that that weird rectangular hole on the floor had a hammock slung over it.
有一次，他们实际上进入了他没有放弃的一间小屋，他们看到地板上那个奇怪的矩形洞上面挂着一张吊床。
And they speculated that digging the hole so deep was probably some kind of spiritual ritual.
他们推测，挖这么深的洞很可能是某种精神仪式。
One day, one of the team members, Paulo Pereira, was walking through the forest, didn't know the Indian was around.
有一天，团队成员之一保罗·佩雷拉 (Paulo Pereira) 正在森林里散步，他并不知道印第安人就在附近。
And he heard somebody yell out, "Ho." Just one word, very sharply, yelled out, "Ho." And Paulo stopped.
他听到有人喊道：“嗬。”就一个字，非常尖锐地喊出：“嗬”。保罗停了下来。
He looked around, and he saw the Indian, and the Indian just casually left.
他环顾四周，看到了那个印第安人，而那个印第安人就若无其事地离开了。
He just walked behind a tree and disappeared into the forest.
他只是走到一棵树后面，消失在森林里。
Paulo looked down and realized that he was standing right near the lip of a hole that the Indian had dug and lined with sharp spikes to capture animals.
保罗低头一看，发现自己正站在一个洞口附近，这个洞是印第安人挖的，洞里布满了锋利的尖刺，用来捕捉动物。
The Indian was trying to warn him.
印第安人试图警告他。
The Indian didn't want him hurt.
印第安人不想让他受伤。
And that really made an impression on them.
这确实给他们留下了深刻的印象。
It was really the first interaction anybody had had with him.
这确实是任何人与他的第一次互动。
Is it fair to just leave him out there alone?
让他一个人呆在那里公平吗？
Is it fair to him?
这对他公平吗？
It seems sort of sad.
似乎有点悲伤。
Yeah, I mean, that's one of the arguments that's made in favor of trying to force contact.
是的，我的意思是，这是支持尝试强制接触的论点之一。
That it's really hard to even just imagine-- to kind of wrap the head around-- what it's like to be that alone.
真的很难想象——想一想——独自一人会是什么样子。
He hasn't spoken to anyone for 15 years.
他已经15年没有和任何人说过话了。
It'll be 15 years in this upcoming year.
明年就15周年了。
And I can imagine spending a day without speaking with anyone.
我可以想象有一天不与任何人交谈。
But when you think about a week of that, and then a month, and then a year, and then a decade, it's just really hard to wrap your head around what that experience is like.
但当你想到一周、一个月、一年、十年时，你真的很难理解那种经历是什么样的。
I just could not stop thinking about that.
我就是无法停止思考这个问题。
This kind of story-- there's a whole sub-genre of science fiction of last survivors.
这种故事——有一个关于最后幸存者的科幻小说的完整子类型。
It tugs at something I think kind of primal, almost mythical.
它牵动着我认为某种原始的、近乎神话般的东西。
What is life like for someone who lives completely alone with no one else to fall back onto?
对于一个完全独自生活、没有其他人可以依靠的人来说，生活是什么样的？
And my mind originally went to one of two polar opposites.
我的想法最初转向了两个极端之一。
There's the Garden of Eden idea, that he's alone in the middle of the forest--
这就是伊甸园的想法，他独自一人在森林中央——
Where there's ample food, and he goes and picks fruit, and he hunts animals.
那里有充足的食物，他就去采摘水果，猎杀动物。
Yeah.
是的。
It's not reality, but that's one way to look at it.
这不是现实，但这是看待它的一种方式。
Another way is that he's trapped in this post-apocalyptic horror story.
另一种方式是他被困在这个后世界末日的恐怖故事中。
All this led Monte to look into the research on what extreme isolation does to people.
所有这些促使蒙特开始研究极端孤立对人们的影响。
He says there've been a few studies.
他说已经进行了一些研究。
And they show that it's not how isolated you are, it's how isolated you feel.
他们表明，重要的不是你有多孤立，而是你感到有多么孤立。
It's a matter of perception.
这是一个观念问题。
Different people in the same situation perceive it differently.
不同的人在同样的情况下，会有不同的感受。
He says isolation also tends to make people more spiritual, which then makes them feel less alone.
他说，孤立也会让人变得更加精神，从而让他们感觉不那么孤独。
Monte's heard of one other example of a man in Brazil who was the last survivor of his tribe.
蒙特听说过另一个巴西男子的例子，他是他部落的最后幸存者。
The man's name is [?
这个男人的名字是[?
Cada Pirru ?] and he spent almost 10 years wandering after the rest of his people were massacred.
Cada Pirru？] 在他的其他人民被屠杀后，他花了近 10 年的时间流浪。
He was found in a town hundreds of miles from where his village had been and was put into a reserve with a different tribe.
他在距离他的村庄数百英里的一个小镇被发现，并被放入另一个部落的保护区。
When he first arrived, it was almost like a homecoming-- everybody celebrated.
当他第一次到达时，几乎就像回家一样——每个人都在庆祝。
But soon, he built a hut off by himself in the forest alone.
但很快，他就独自在森林里搭建了一座小屋。
After all those years of solitude, he didn't want to be around other people.
经过这么多年的孤独，他不想和别人在一起。
Monte Reel's book about the quest to find and save the one lone tribesman is called The Last of the Tribe.
蒙特瑞尔的书讲述了寻找并拯救孤独部落成员的故事，书名为《最后的部落》。
Our program was produced today by Jane Feltes and myself, with Alex Blumberg, Ben Calhoun, Sarah Koenig, Lisa Pollak, Robyn Semien, and Alissa Ship.
今天我们的节目由 Jane Feltes 和我本人以及 Alex Blumberg、Ben Calhoun、Sarah Koenig、Lisa Pollak、Robyn Semien 和 Alissa Ship 共同制作。
Production help from Eric Mennel.
埃里克·门内尔 (Eric Mennel) 提供制作帮助。
Seth Lind is our production manager.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的生产经理。
Emily Condon's our office manager.
艾米丽·康登是我们的办公室经理。
Jen Berman's filling in as our West Coast producer.
珍·伯曼 (Jen Berman) 担任我们的西海岸制片人。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, where you can get our free weekly podcast or find old episodes you've never heard and listen to them for absolutely free, thisamericanlife.org.
[鸣谢] 我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中获取我们的免费每周播客或找到您从未听过的旧剧集并完全免费收听它们。
We're on Twitter at thisamerlife.
我们在 Twitter 上关注 thisamerlife。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
WBEZ management oversight for our show by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia, who got so offended the other night as he was walking to his car in the radio station parking lot.
我们的老板托里·马拉蒂亚 (Torey Malatia) 先生对我们的节目进行 WBEZ 管理监督，前几天晚上，他在广播电台停车场走向自己的汽车时，非常生气。
And he heard somebody yell out, "Ho!" Just one word, very sharply, yelled out "Ho!"
他听到有人喊道：“嗬！”就一个字，非常尖锐，喊出了“嗬”！
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。