431: See No Evil - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #431 | April 1, 2011 431: See No Evil Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 431 集 | 2011 年 4 月 1 日 431：勿视邪恶 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass One thing about living under a dictator, there's stuff you have to ignore or suffer the consequences.
序言 Ira Glass 生活在独裁者统治下的一件事是，有些事情你必须忽视，否则后果自负。
A decade ago in Egypt, you could get thrown in prison for suggesting publicly that the president was laying the groundwork for his own son to replace him someday, which, by the way, he was.
十年前，在埃及，你可能会因为公开暗示总统正在为他自己的儿子有一天取代他奠定基础而被投入监狱，顺便说一句，他确实做到了。
When a member of the Egyptian parliament implied on television that the military might have been extensively involved in the assassination of former president Anwar Sadat--
当埃及议会的一名议员在电视上暗示军方可能广泛参与了前总统安瓦尔·萨达特的暗杀行动时——
He had his parliamentary immunity stripped the next day, a very fast military trial, and he went from being a member of parliament to being behind bars within about a week.
第二天，他的议会豁免权被剥夺，这是一场非常快速的军事审判，他在大约一周内从议会议员变成了监狱。
Michelle Dunne was a Mideast specialist at the State Department and the White House.
米歇尔·邓恩是国务院和白宫的中东问题专家。
She lived in Egypt.
她住在埃及。
She speaks Arabic.
她说 阿拉伯语。
She's now at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.
她现在在卡内基国际和平基金会工作。
She edits the Arab Reform Bulletin.
她编辑《阿拉伯改革公报》。
She says that back when Hosni Mubarak was running Egypt, the way he used the intelligence services and security forces, everyone was forced to report on everyone else to the authorities.
她说，当胡斯尼·穆巴拉克统治埃及时，他使用情报部门和安全部队的方式，每个人都被迫向当局报告其他人的情况。
She knew whenever she would be with anybody in Egypt, the would get a phone call afterwards asking what the conversation was about.
她知道每当她在埃及与任何人在一起时，他们都会接到电话询问谈话内容。
And this happened to me.
这发生在我身上。
One time I was having dinner with a friend.
有一次我和一位朋友一起吃饭。
And this was a person who was very active and very kind of pro-democracy and so forth.
这是一个非常活跃、非常支持民主等等的人。
But that friend got a telephone call during the dinner.
但那个朋友在晚餐时接到了电话。
And it was clearly a telephone call that he could not put off-- that he had to take.
这显然是一个他不能拖延的电话——他必须接听。
And I heard him give a dump on a meeting that had taken place that afternoon-- not a meeting I had been at, but a meeting other people I knew had been at-- who was there, what did they say.
我听到他对那天下午举行的一次会议进行了吐槽——不是我参加的会议，而是我认识的其他人参加的会议——谁在那里，他们说了些什么。
And then afterwards, my friend said to me kind of apologetically, oh well, this is so and so.
后来，我的朋友有点抱歉地对我说，哦，好吧，是这样的。
And I know he's from security, but he's really not a bad guy.
我知道他是保安人员，但他确实不是坏人。
He has good intentions.
他的意图是好的。
He's trying to help us out.
他正在努力帮助我们。
So yeah, I do answer his questions when he calls.
所以，是的，当他打电话时我会回答他的问题。
That's changing now, she says.
她说，现在情况正在改变。
She was there last week and says Egyptians are starting to feel like they don't have to rat people out anymore.
她上周去过那里，并表示埃及人开始觉得他们不必再出卖别人了。
As the Arab Spring has reminded everybody and made abundantly clear, we Americans have been and still are allies with some terrible leaders, not just in Egypt but across the Mideast.
正如阿拉伯之春提醒所有人并充分表明的那样，我们美国人过去和现在仍然是一些可怕领导人的盟友，不仅在埃及，而且在整个中东地区。
It's This American Life , by the way, from WBEZ, Chicago, distributed by Public Radio International.
顺便说一下，这是《This American Life》，来自芝加哥 WBEZ，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
We were putting together this week's program.
我们正在整理本周的节目。
And the theme of our program this week is "See No Evil"-- stories of people basically burying their heads in the sand in the face of wrongs being committed of various sorts.
我们本周节目的主题是“勿视邪恶”——讲述人们面对各种各样的错误时基本上把头埋在沙子里的故事。
And we wondered about all those years that we were allies with Mubarak and all those other guys-- how much what we really pushing them to hold fair elections and respect human rights?
我们想知道这些年来我们与穆巴拉克和所有其他人的盟友——我们到底在多大程度上推动他们举行公平选举和尊重人权？
And how much was our policy "see no evil?" Don't deal with it.
我们的政策“非礼勿视”有多少？别处理它。
Don't push.
别推。
And so we called Michele Dunne because she had insider's knowledge.
所以我们打电话给米歇尔·邓恩，因为她了解内幕消息。
From 2000 to 2002, she was the US government official dealing with human rights questions in Egypt.
2000年至2002年，她担任美国政府官员，负责处理埃及的人权问题。
She was the Human Rights Officer at the US Embassy in Cairo.
她是美国驻开罗大使馆的人权官员。
Well, I think the United States was bringing stuff up.
嗯，我认为美国正在提出一些问题。
But I would differentiate between raising human rights issues and really pursuing them seriously.
但我会区分提出人权问题和真正认真地解决这些问题。
So, she says, usually there was no strategy to tie human rights changes that we wanted to see to things that the Egyptians wanted from us.
因此，她说，通常没有策略将我们希望看到的人权变革与埃及人希望我们做的事情联系起来。
Instead, she'd gather examples of people being jailed and treated unfairly.
相反，她会收集人们被监禁和受到不公平对待的例子。
And she and the head of the Political Section at the US Embassy would then go in to discuss-- it was kind of a routine thing-- go in to discuss these with Egyptian officials.
然后她和美国大使馆政治处的负责人会去讨论——这是一种例行公事——去与埃及官员讨论这些问题。
And I remember some meetings at the foreign ministry.
我记得外交部的一些会议。
There was a specific director for human rights in the foreign ministry.
外交部设有专门负责人权事务的主任。
And that person was there to receive the complaints of foreigners about human rights.
那个人就是来接受外国人关于人权的投诉的。
But the reply we would often get is, these are internal affairs.
但我们经常得到的答复是，这些是内政。
They're none of your business.
他们不关你的事。
We don't even know why you're bringing them up with us.
我们甚至不知道你为什么要把他们带到我们这里来。
And how was that said?
那是怎么说的？
OK.
好的。
So I'm picturing like you and the political officer.
所以我的想象就像你和政治官员一样。
And I'm picturing some big office.
我正在想象一些大办公室。
And there's like-- are their snacks?
他们有零食吗？
Do they offer you water?
他们给你提供水吗？
Is there a little thing of dates?
有没有关于日期的小事？
There's always tea or coffee.
总是有茶或咖啡。
Yes.
是的。
I don't remember snacks, but tea or coffee.
我不记得零食，只记得茶或咖啡。
And are you sitting on couches in some office or are you--
你坐在办公室的沙发上还是——
Yes.
是的。
Ira Glass Yeah.
艾拉·格拉斯 是的。
And then is it the sort of thing like in a movie, where you go over like a list of things.
然后就像在电影中一样，你可以像列出一系列事情一样浏览。
And the foreign minister is silent, silent, silent.
外交部长沉默、沉默、沉默。
And then he says, well these are internal affairs.
然后他说，这些都是内政。
He's gives you like a one sentence answer.
他给了你一句话的答案。
Is it a friendly kind of thing?
这是一种友好的事情吗？
Is it a pro forma thing?
这是一个形式上的事情吗？
It really depends on the meeting.
这实际上取决于会议。
And the kind of meeting that I'm discussing-- kind of a working level meeting with the person whose job it is to know about these things-- it would probably be a little bit friendlier.
我正在讨论的那种会议——与负责了解这些事情的人举行的工作级别会议——可能会更友好一些。
And they might say basically, these are not your affair.
他们可能会说，基本上，这些不关你的事。
These are internal issues.
这些都是内部问题。
But I would also like to let you know that these people are going to be treated fairly.
但我也想让您知道，这些人将受到公平对待。
So they would tell you first of all that you have no right to discuss those issues, but then they might proceed to actually discuss those issues with you.
因此，他们首先会告诉您，您无权讨论这些问题，但随后他们可能会继续与您实际讨论这些问题。
President Bush, she says, did have a period of really pushing the Egyptian government on human rights.
她说，布什总统确实有一段时间在人权问题上真正推动了埃及政府的发展。
In 2002, President Bush withheld $133 million in aid because Mubarak's government had jailed a democracy advocate, Saad Ibrahim.
2002年，布什总统因穆巴拉克政府监禁民主倡导者萨阿德·易卜拉欣而扣留了1.33亿美元的援助。
And he wrote to Mubarak and told him specifically, because you are sending to prison people who are peaceful opponents of your government, I'm not going to give you this aid.
他写信给穆巴拉克并特别告诉他，因为你把和平反对你的政府的人送进监狱，我不会给你这种援助。
That caused a great deal of unhappiness in Cairo.
这在开罗引起了极大的不满。
President Mubarak was furious about it.
穆巴拉克总统对此十分愤怒。
But it worked.
但它奏效了。
Ibraham finally was freed.
易卜拉罕终于获释。
President Bush pushed for freer elections and those happened in 2005.
布什总统推动了更自由的选举，这些选举在 2005 年发生了。
But after the election results put members of the Muslim Brotherhood into 20% of parliament seats, Mubarak cracked down and the Bush administration stopped pushing them so hard.
但在选举结果使穆斯林兄弟会成员获得20%的议会席位后，穆巴拉克进行了镇压，布什政府也不再对他们施压。
Then when President Obama came in, he actually cut back-- he cut the funding by half for the remaining pro-democracy initiatives that the US still had going.
然后，当奥巴马总统上任时，他实际上削减了开支——他将美国仍在进行的剩余民主倡议的资金削减了一半。
So in the years where you were in Cairo and part of the government-- and now enough time has gone by and circumstances have changed enough, I hope that you can talk honestly about this-- did you feel like we were pushing the Egyptian government as much as could be pushed?
那么，在你在开罗并担任政府一员的那些年里——现在已经过去了足够多的时间，情况也已经发生了足够多的变化，我希望你能诚实地谈论这一点——你是否觉得我们正在尽可能地推动埃及政府？
In other words, as a human rights officer, did you feel like, OK, we're saying everything that can be said productively, and that's it?
换句话说，作为一名人权官员，您是否觉得，好吧，我们已经说了一切可以有效说的话，仅此而已？
Or did you feel at the time, we could be doing a lot more for human rights?
或者您当时是否觉得我们可以为人权做更多的事情？
We could be pushing this regime more.
我们可以进一步推动这个制度。
We should be squeezing them more.
我们应该对他们施加更多压力。
I felt the latter.
我感觉是后者。
I felt we could be doing more.
我觉得我们可以做得更多。
And there was a lot of discussion about what we should say publicly, what senior officials should say-- whether it's the Secretary of State, or the President in some cases, or the US ambassador-- to put some pressure on.
关于我们应该公开说什么、高级官员应该说什么——无论是国务卿，或者在某些情况下是总统，还是美国大使——进行了很多讨论，以施加一些压力。
And the thing that I felt frustrated about is we were so careful about doing that-- there was always a lot of concern about rustling the government's feathers and so forth-- but I often felt concerned that we were just not making clear where the United States stood on these issues.
让我感到沮丧的是，我们这样做时非常小心——总是有很多担心会扰乱政府的羽毛等等——但我经常感到担心的是，我们只是没有明确美国在这些问题上的立场。
That doesn't mean that once we say it, we have to make it happen and we have to sacrifice everything in the relationship to making it happen.
这并不意味着一旦我们说出来，我们就必须实现它，并且我们必须牺牲关系中的一切来实现它。
But it frustrated me that we often weren't, I thought, signaling to the Egyptian people where the United States stood on these issues.
但令我沮丧的是，我认为我们常常没有向埃及人民表明美国在这些问题上的立场。
And we've paid the price for that, she says.
“我们已经为此付出了代价，”她说。
Because it just contributed to the feeling that the Egyptian people now have that we were not on their side.
因为这只会让埃及人民感觉我们不站在他们一边。
Today on our show, we have three stories of people turning their backs, turning their heads, not dealing with wrongdoing, sometimes for very good reasons, sometimes for not such good reasons.
今天在我们的节目中，我们讲述了三个故事，讲述的是人们背弃、转过头、不处理不法行为，有时是出于很好的理由，有时是出于不那么好的理由。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Blood Brothers.
第一幕，热血兄弟。
Let's start with a family story.
让我们从一个家庭故事开始吧。
In a family it can be hard getting everyone to admit and agree when something has gone wrong.
在一个家庭中，当出现问题时，让每个人都承认并同意是很困难的。
Lisa Pollak has a very extreme example of that.
丽莎·波拉克（Lisa Pollak）有一个非常极端的例子。
When Josh Martin was a kid, his mother asked him to promise something.
当乔什·马丁还是个孩子的时候，他的母亲让他答应一件事。
If anything ever happens to me, she said, you need to look out for your brother Ben.
如果我出了什么事，她说，你需要照顾你的兄弟本。
The unusual thing about that request is that Ben was Josh's older brother, 10 years older.
这个请求的不同寻常之处在于，Ben 是 Josh 的哥哥，比他大 10 岁。
And Josh had thought it was Ben's job to look out for him.
乔什认为本的工作就是照顾他。
Since Josh's father was out of the picture, he relied on Ben as a substitute dad.
由于乔什的父亲不在其中，他依靠本作为替补父亲。
But Ben had his problems.
但本也有他的问题。
And as he got older, Josh saw those too.
随着年龄的增长，乔什也看到了这些。
Ben had a learning disability and struggled in school.
本有学习障碍，在学校表现不佳。
He'd spent time living in homeless shelters and went in and out of low wage jobs.
他曾在无家可归者收容所里度过一段时间，并做过低薪工作。
"Be sure to study," Josh remembers his mother, Nancy, saying.
“一定要学习，”乔什记得他的母亲南希说。
"You don't want to end up like Ben."
“你不想落得像本一样的下场。”
Josh thought his mom was too hard on Ben.
乔什认为他妈妈对本太严厉了。
But Nancy wanted Ben to do better.
但南希希望本做得更好。
One day after a fight with Ben, her frustration boiled over.
与本吵架后的一天，她的沮丧情绪爆发了。
She walked outside crying and confided in a neighbor that she worried what would become of her oldest son.
她哭着走到外面，向邻居吐露她担心她的大儿子会怎么样。
The eerie thing about that conversation with her neighbor is that it turned out to be one of the last conversations Nancy Martin ever had.
与邻居的那次谈话令人毛骨悚然的是，这是南希·马丁最后的谈话之一。
After that, Ben did need his brother's help, just like his mother thought he would.
从那以后，本确实需要他哥哥的帮助，就像他母亲所想的那样。
And for Josh, keeping his promise to his mother turned out to be more complicated than he'd ever imagined.
对于乔什来说，兑现对母亲的承诺比他想象的要复杂。
Nancy Martin was a college fund raiser.
南希·马丁是一名大学筹款人。
And five years ago, she went on a business trip and didn't come home.
而五年前，她出差，没有回家。
Her rental car was missing.
她租来的车不见了。
She didn't answer her cell phone.
她没有接电话。
After two weeks with no sign of her, her sons knew the situation was about as bad as it could possibly be.
两周后，她仍不见踪影，她的儿子们知道情况已经糟糕到了极点。
Only then, it got worse.
只是到那时，情况才变得更糟。
The local news reported that police had a suspect.
当地新闻报道称，警方逮捕了一名嫌疑人。
Investigators here in Pittman, New Jersey, have spent hours interrogating the last known person to have seen Nancy Martin alive.
新泽西州皮特曼的调查人员花了几个小时审问最后一位见过南希·马丁活着的人。
It's her oldest son.
这是她的大儿子。
Her oldest son, Ben.
她的大儿子本。
A week earlier, he'd reported his mother missing.
一周前，他报告说他的母亲失踪了。
Now he was suspected of causing her death.
现在他被怀疑导致了她的死亡。
Not only was he the last person to see her, but their last conversation didn't end so well.
他不仅是最后一个见到她的人，而且他们最后的谈话也没有那么顺利。
Ben Martin tells me he and his mother argued here two weeks ago over the condition of the house that she owns.
本·马丁告诉我，两周前他和他母亲在这里就她所拥有的房子的状况发生了争执。
The single mother of three allegedly said she was leaving for a hotel.
据称，这位三个孩子的单亲母亲说她要前往一家酒店。
They haven't even found our mother and there's a prosecutor assigned already.
他们甚至还没有找到我们的母亲，而且已经指派了一名检察官。
I mean, it's scary.
我的意思是，这很可怕。
That's Josh, Ben's brother.
那是乔什，本的兄弟。
Josh thought this was all a mistake.
乔什认为这都是一个错误。
He knew his brother was innocent.
他知道他的兄弟是无辜的。
And he worried that Ben-- who wanted to be so helpful to police that he'd given two taped statements without an attorney-- could end up in jail for a crime he didn't commit.
他担心本——他想为警方提供帮助，以至于在没有律师的情况下提供了两份录音陈述——最终可能会因为他没有犯下的罪行而入狱。
Here's Ben.
这是本。
Can you imagine that?
你能想象吗？
Being told your mom might be dead, and then being accused of doing something to her.
被告知你的妈妈可能已经死了，然后被指控对她做了什么。
You had nothing with your mom's disappearance?
你妈妈的失踪与你无关吗？
No, no. Josh Martin It probably could change from hour to hour, what I thought or what my theory was of what had happened to my mom.
不，不。乔什·马丁 对于发生在我妈妈身上的事情，我的想法或我的理论可能会随时发生变化。
Again, Josh.
再说一次，乔什。
Josh Martin I thought she could have gotten drunk and thought she was OK to drive, and went to the liquor store and didn't make it back.
乔什·马丁（Josh Martin）：我以为她可能喝醉了，以为她可以开车，然后去了酒品店，但没有回来。
Or she had gotten into a car wreck out in the Pine Barrens, or she had done some silly online date and it went bad.
或者她在松林贫瘠之地出了车祸，或者她在网上进行了一些愚蠢的约会，但结果却很糟糕。
Anything but Ben.
除了本以外什么都可以。
That was the last thing made any sense to me.
这对我来说是最后一件有意义的事。
Ben was such a good guy.
本真是个好人。
He was such a nice guy.
他是一个很好的人。
There was just no way that he could do something that terrible.
他根本不可能做出这么可怕的事情。
That's Stephanie Perot.
那是斯蒂芬妮·佩罗。
She was Josh's girlfriend then.
当时她是乔希的女朋友。
They're actually engaged now.
他们现在确实订婚了。
They're a cute couple.
他们是一对可爱的情侣。
He's super tall and boyish looking.
他个子很高，看上去很孩子气。
She's pretty and petite.
她又漂亮又娇小。
Back then, Stephanie and Josh lived near enough to Ben to see him most weekends, and Stephanie and Ben had gotten close.
那时，斯蒂芬妮和乔什住得离本很近，大多数周末都能见到他，斯蒂芬妮和本已经很亲近了。
Josh and Ben had a third brother, Matthew Leschan, who lived in Illinois but was traveling to New Jersey so all three brothers could be together.
乔什和本有一个第三个兄弟马修·莱斯坎 (Matthew Leschan)，他住在伊利诺伊州，但要前往新泽西州，以便三兄弟可以在一起。
But for now when it came to helping Ben, Josh and Stephanie were on their own.
但现在要帮助本，乔什和斯蒂芬妮只能靠自己了。
We thought maybe he was being abused by the police, that they were trying to get a confession out of him that wasn't true, that they were just pressuring him.
我们认为他可能受到警察的虐待，他们试图让他认罪，但事实并非如此，他们只是向他施压。
And we just took Ben under our wing, wanted him to stay with us, wanted him to just be away from the cops.
我们只是将本置于我们的保护之下，希望他留在我们身边，希望他远离警察。
We just wanted to help him out because we really didn't think that he was guilty.
我们只是想帮助他，因为我们真的不认为他有罪。
And we really loved him home a lot.
我们真的很爱他的家。
It's true that Ben was the last person to see their mom.
确实，本是最后一个见到妈妈的人。
And it's true that their last meeting ended in a big fight.
确实，他们上次的会面以一场大战告终。
But that didn't seem suspicious to Josh and Stephanie at all.
但这对乔什和斯蒂芬妮来说一点也不可疑。
On the first day of her business trip to New Jersey, Nancy had surprised Ben with an unannounced visit.
在去新泽西出差的第一天，南希突然来访，让本大吃一惊。
The house in Pitman where Ben lived was actually Nancy's house.
本住在皮特曼的房子实际上是南希的房子。
Ben was living there because she asked him to move and act as a caretaker for the place when she moved Illinois the year before.
本之所以住在那里，是因为前一年她搬到伊利诺伊州时，她要求他搬去并担任这个地方的看守人。
But basic life skills like cleaning were not Ben's strong suit.
但清洁等基本生活技能并不是本的强项。
And on the day of Nancy's visit-- a surprise visit-- the house was a complete wreck-- bags worth of garbage all over the house, unwashed dishes that were growing mold, litter boxes that had gone so long without being cleaned that the cats-- there were six in the house-- weren't using them anymore.
南希来访的那天——一次意外的拜访——房子完全是一片废墟——房子里到处都是垃圾袋，未洗的盘子正在发霉，垃圾箱已经很久没有清理过，以至于猫——房子里有六只猫——不再使用它们。
When their mother walked and saw all this, Ben told his brothers, she let him have it.
当他们的母亲走过来看到这一切时，本告诉他的兄弟们，她让他拥有了。
Here's Josh.
这是乔什。
Josh Martin She had came in, burst open the door and woke him up, and started just yelling about the house's condition.
乔什·马丁 她进来了，猛地打开门，把他吵醒了，然后开始大喊大叫，谈论房子的状况。
And just yelling and yelling.
而且只是大喊大叫。
And then he said, you know, she had drank some beer and continued to yell.
然后他说，你知道，她喝了一些啤酒，然后继续大喊大叫。
And then she tried to go to sleep for awhile and got up and said that the bed was disgusting and smelled like BO, packed her bags, and left.
然后她想睡一会儿，起身说床很恶心，有股BO的味道，然后收拾好行李就离开了。
And that she left storming out, not saying where she was going, not taking her phone, apparently.
她气冲冲地走了出去，没有说她要去哪里，显然也没有拿手机。
She just left.
她刚刚离开。
And that didn't sound so out of the norm to us, to me or Matt.
对于我们、我或马特来说，这听起来并不那么不寻常。
That sounded really plausible.
这听起来确实很有道理。
That's something she would do-- storm out.
那就是她会做的事——冲出去。
And we believed him.
我们相信他。
Josh and Matt told me they were used to their mother's outbursts.
乔什和马特告诉我，他们已经习惯了母亲的爆发。
Her mood swings were unpredictable, they said.
他们说，她的情绪波动难以预测。
And if something set her off, her tirades could get nasty, especially, Josh says, if she'd been drinking.
乔什说，如果有什么事情惹恼了她，她的长篇大论可能会变得令人讨厌，尤其是如果她喝酒了。
It wasn't something most people in their lives knew about.
这不是大多数人一生中都知道的事情。
In fact, a few outsiders had told them they don't believe it.
事实上，一些外人告诉他们，他们不相信这一点。
And it's still painful for them to discuss.
而且讨论对他们来说仍然是痛苦的。
Their childhood memories include happy moments interspersed with harrowing ones, like the time Nancy ordered Ben to tie Matthew up to a chair with an electrical cord.
他们的童年记忆包括快乐的时刻和痛苦的时刻，比如南希命令本用电线把马修绑在椅子上。
Josh told me she'd kick them out of the house as punishment, forcing them to find their own places to stay.
乔什告诉我，她会把他们赶出家门作为惩罚，迫使他们自己找地方住。
He remembers coming home and seeing Ben sleeping in the bushes, and having to sneak food out to him, knowing he'd get in trouble if he let him in.
他记得回到家看到本睡在灌木丛里，他不得不偷偷地给他食物，因为他知道如果让他进来就会有麻烦。
Of the three sons, Ben always got it the worst.
在三个儿子中，本的处境总是最糟糕。
Ben reported his mother missing on March 19, 2006.
本于 2006 年 3 月 19 日报告说他的母亲失踪了。
A couple days later, two detectives went to the house in Pitman-- Robert Hemphill and his colleague, Greg Owens.
几天后，两名侦探来到了皮特曼的房子——罗伯特·亨普希尔和他的同事格雷格·欧文斯。
The very first time him and I went and talked to Ben, we were hoping she's going to be found and he had nothing to do with it.
我和他第一次去和本谈话时，我们希望她能被发现，而他与这件事无关。
It wasn't until after we walked out the door, like with the neighbor and stuff, is when it started leading back to him.
直到我们走出门后，就像和邻居一样，它才开始回到他身边。
The neighbors across the street corroborated part of Ben's story-- that Nancy had come to visit.
街对面的邻居证实了本的故事的一部分——南希来拜访。
One of them had even talked to her outside and heard about the messy house and how upset Nancy was.
其中一个人甚至在外面和她交谈过，听说了房子乱七八糟，以及南希有多难过。
But something worried the neighbors.
但邻居们却有些担心。
They thought Nancy said she'd be in town all week.
他们以为南希说她整个星期都会在城里。
But they hadn't seen her, even though they'd seen her grey rental car in the driveway-- the same grey rental car that Ben said she'd left in.
但他们没有看到她，尽管他们在车道上看到了她的灰色出租汽车——就是本说她留在里面的那辆灰色出租汽车。
When detective Owens heard that, he knew there was a problem.
欧文斯侦探一听，就知道有问题了。
The neighbor had seen the rental car two or three days after Ben's version that they got in an argument, she jumped in it and left.
在本的版本称他们发生争执后两三天，邻居看到了租来的车，她跳上车离开了。
And he remembered it very clearly, because I believe it had Virginia tags.
他记得很清楚，因为我相信它有弗吉尼亚标签。
You can probably see where this is going.
您可能可以看到这是怎么回事。
That night, after cops had talked with the neighbors, the grey rental car with Virginia plates was found in a strip mall parking lot about five miles from Pitman.
那天晚上，警察与邻居交谈后，在距离皮特曼约五英里的一个购物中心停车场发现了这辆带有弗吉尼亚牌照的灰色出租汽车。
There was no sign in the car of Nancy Martin, her luggage, or computer.
南希·马丁的车里、她的行李箱和电脑上都没有任何迹象。
But there were traces of blood on the bumper and trunk.
但保险杠和后备箱上有血迹。
While police searched his house for evidence, Ben went to the library and emailed his brother Josh.
当警察搜查他的房子寻找证据时，本去了图书馆，给他的兄弟乔什发了电子邮件。
Police believe mom is dead, Ben wrote.
本写道，警方相信妈妈已经死了。
They also think I did something to her.
他们还认为我对她做了什么。
By now, Ben was staying at Josh and Stephanie's apartment.
现在，本住在乔什和斯蒂芬妮的公寓里。
Josh and Ben's brother Matthew was there now too, along with his wife.
乔什和本的兄弟马修现在也在那里，还有他的妻子。
Her name's also Stephanie.
她的名字也叫斯蒂芬妮。
Josh and his brother Matt were in a weird situation.
乔什和他的兄弟马特的处境很奇怪。
They were the sons of the victim, so they desperately wanted police to solve the case.
他们是受害人的儿子，所以迫切希望警方破案。
But they were the brothers of the suspect, so they wanted police to back off.
但他们是嫌疑人的兄弟，所以他们希望警方退后一步。
The day after Josh and Ben were on that TV news story saying that police were wrong, investigators asked all of them except Ben to come in and talk.
乔什和本在电视新闻报道中说警察错了的第二天，调查人员要求除本之外的所有人都进来谈话。
When they arrived, the mood was tense.
当他们到达时，气氛很紧张。
Here's detective Hemphill.
这是亨普希尔侦探。
They were upset.
他们很沮丧。
They were hurt.
他们受伤了。
They were in disbelief.
他们难以置信。
They were upset at us because they thought, hey, why aren't you guys-- you were talking here today on Sunday-- why aren't you out looking for my mother?
他们对我们感到不安，因为他们想，嘿，你们为什么不——你们今天周日在这里说话——为什么不出去寻找我的母亲？
And that was said to us.
这是对我们说的。
Why has the focus only been on our brother?
为什么焦点只集中在我们的兄弟身上？
They kept going on and on.
他们不断地继续。
The detective and his assistant just kept telling us, no, he did this.
侦探和他的助手一直告诉我们，不，他这么做了。
We know he did this.
我们知道他这么做了。
What is it going to take for you to believe that he did this?
你要怎样才能相信他做到了这一点？
And we told them they were being lazy and that all they wanted to do was just close the case and not have to worry about searching for her.
我们告诉他们，他们很懒，他们只想结案，而不必担心寻找她。
Matt was angry too.
马特也很生气。
Matthew Leschan The question that was posed to me was that, what would it take for you to believe that Ben had something to do with your mom's disappearance?
马修·莱斯坎（Matthew Leschan）向我提出的问题是，你怎样才能相信本与你妈妈的失踪有关？
And I want evidence.
我想要证据。
I want evidence you're going to use in court to try to convict him.
我想要你在法庭上用来给他定罪的证据。
I want to see evidence.
我想看证据。
That afternoon they saw the evidence.
那天下午他们看到了证据。
Detectives took out pictures of the crime scene showing blood in the house and in the garage, as if a body had been dragged there.
侦探们拿出了犯罪现场的照片，显示房子和车库里都有血迹，好像有一具尸体被拖到那里。
Ben himself had said no one had been in the house but him.
本本人说过，除了他之外，房子里没有人。
And there was other evidence, including a surveillance tape showing Ben after he'd abandoned the rental car, wearing a shirt that had been found in the house with blood on it.
还有其他证据，包括一段监控录像，显示本放弃租来的汽车后，穿着一件在房子里发现的沾有血迹的衬衫。
At this point, the only thing the homicide case didn't have was a body.
此时，凶杀案唯一没有的就是尸体。
They were still searching, the detective said.
侦探说，他们仍在寻找。
But they were confident that Ben knew where his mother was.
但他们相信本知道他母亲在哪里。
Ben didn't come to the meeting, but he'd driven there with his brothers.
本没有来参加会议，但他和他的兄弟们开车去了那里。
When it ended, he was still in the car, where he'd been waiting the whole time.
结束时，他还在车里，一直在车里等待。
Again, Josh.
再说一次，乔什。
Josh Martin We got in the car and didn't say much to Ben.
乔什·马丁：我们上了车，并没有对本说太多话。
Didn't say a word.
没有说一句话。
Just were still digesting what just happened.
只是还在消化刚刚发生的事情。
And he said something along the lines of, "You guys OK?
他说了一些类似的话，“你们还好吗？
What's the matter?
怎么了？
You guys upset?
你们不高兴吗？
What did they say to you?
他们对你说了什么？
What did they say to you?" And we just-- Ben, not right now.
他们对你说什么了？”我们只是——本，不是现在。
And every time Ben asked, we were like just-- nothing.
每次本问起时，我们都说——什么也没有。
And we were kind of mean about it.
我们对此有点刻薄。
We were like just stop.
我们就像停下来一样。
Like, shush.
就像，嘘。
We'll talk about it later.
我们稍后再讨论。
The detectives say they didn't want the family to interrogate Ben-- didn't tell them to do anything, really, other than if Ben said something, they needed to call.
侦探们说，他们不想让家人审问本——实际上，他们没有告诉他们做任何事情，除非本说了什么，他们需要打电话。
But Ben didn't say anything.
但本什么也没说。
Stephanie told Josh that they needed to confront Ben.
斯蒂芬妮告诉乔什，他们需要面对本。
But Josh refused.
但乔什拒绝了。
They argued about it.
他们为此争论过。
Josh wasn't saying that Ben was innocent anymore.
乔什不再说本是无辜的了。
He was saying things like, if we talk to Ben and he says he did it, it's over, Steph.
他说，如果我们和本谈谈，他说他做到了，那就结束了，斯蒂芬。
You understand that?
你明白吗？
Over, gone.
结束了，消失了。
He told me he felt like a little kid putting his hands over his ears to block everything out.
他告诉我，他感觉就像一个小孩子用手捂住耳朵以阻挡一切。
And for a few days it worked, though these are days that Josh barely remembers now.
几天来，这种方法奏效了，尽管乔什现在几乎不记得这些日子了。
They drank a lot, he knows that.
他们喝了很多酒，他知道。
And though none of them really talked about it, Josh feels like he, Matt, and Ben were using the time to say goodbye.
虽然他们都没有真正谈论过这件事，但乔什觉得他、马特和本正在利用这段时间说再见。
On what ended up being their last night together, the brothers and the two Stephanies drove to Philadelphia and spent hours just hanging out together.
在他们在一起的最后一晚，兄弟俩和两个斯蒂芬妮开车去了费城，一起度过了几个小时。
They went to Chinatown and drank, and took a long walk to the city's waterfront.
他们去唐人街喝了酒，又走了很长一段路到了城市的海滨。
They smoked and looked out at the lights until it was too cold to stay outside anymore.
他们抽烟，望着窗外的灯光，直到天冷得不能再待在外面了。
That night, at Josh and Stephanie's apartment, Ben shook and cried in his sleep.
那天晚上，在乔什和斯蒂芬妮的公寓里，本在睡梦中颤抖着哭泣。
The next day, three days after they'd seen the evidence, Stephanie tell Josh it was over.
第二天，也就是他们看到证据三天后，斯蒂芬妮告诉乔什一切都结束了。
She didn't give him a choice.
她没有给他选择。
We're going to sit Ben down and talk to him, she said.
“我们要让本坐下来和他谈谈，”她说。
I don't think I was ever mad at Josh.
我想我从来没有生过乔什的气。
I just wanted him to wake up.
我只是想让他醒来。
And I think I was just hurting for him, but I wanted it to be over.
我想我只是为他受伤，但我希望一切都结束。
And the only way it's over is if he says what happened.
唯一结束的方法就是他说出发生的事情。
Come on.
快点。
Let's get this over with.
让我们结束这一切吧。
Talk to Ben.
和本谈谈。
Ben sat on the couch and Stephanie kneeled in front of him.
本坐在沙发上，斯蒂芬妮跪在他面前。
She put her hands on his knees.
她把手放在他的膝盖上。
She was only 20 then.
那时她才20岁。
She didn't have any training for this.
她没有受过任何这方面的训练。
I just told him, "What happened?
我只是告诉他：“发生了什么事？
Just tell us what happened.
请告诉我们发生了什么事。
We're not going to be mad at you.
我们不会生你的气。
We just need to know." That's all that we could say to him.
我们只需要知道。”这就是我们能对他说的一切。
And he kept saying, "I don't remember.
他一直说：“我不记得了。
I don't remember." So I told him to close his eyes.
我不记得了。”所以我告诉他闭上眼睛。
And then, almost as if she were talking to a child, she walked Ben through the story of the fight.
然后，她就像在跟一个孩子说话一样，向本讲述了这场打斗的故事。
Nancy comes in the house, she said.
南希进屋了，她说。
What happens?
会发生什么？
And he has his eyes closed.
他闭着眼睛。
And he goes, "She gets very upset.
他说：“她变得非常沮丧。
She's getting very mad.
她变得非常生气。
The house is a mess." And I say, "When she gets mad, how are you feeling?" And he says, "I start to feel overwhelmed.
家里一片狼藉。”我说：“当她生气时，你感觉如何？”他说：“我开始感到不知所措。
She's spitting in my face." Which she did.
她朝我脸上吐口水。”她做到了。
When she got very mad, she got close to your face, and literally you could feel the spit coming into his face, is what he said.
当她非常生气时，她会靠近你的脸，你可以感觉到口水流到了他的脸上，这是他说的。
Josh and Matt and his wife Stephanie were sitting there, just listening.
乔什、马特和他的妻子斯蒂芬妮坐在那里，只是听着。
What did Nancy say to you next, Stephanie asked?
斯蒂芬妮问，南希接下来对你说了什么？
And he says, she tells me that I am worthless, that I should never have been born, that I'm a terrible son, that I can't keep anything clean, that this house is a [BLEEP] mess.
他说，她告诉我，我一文不值，我根本不应该出生，我是一个糟糕的儿子，我不能保持任何干净，这房子一团糟。
He just went on about how upset she was and how she was screaming at him.
他只是继续说她有多难过以及她如何对他尖叫。
And I say, "OK, well, what did she do next?
我说：“好吧，那么她接下来做了什么？
And what did you do?
你做了什么？
Where were you standing?" And he says, "We're standing in the living room, by the door at this point.
你当时站在哪里？”他说：“我们现在站在客厅门口。
And she starts to push me." And I say, "What do you do when she pushes you?" And he says, "I start pushing her back."
她开始逼我。”我说：“当她推你的时候你会怎么做？”他说：“我开始把她推回去。”
It was the first time that Ben ever admitted the fight got physical.
这是本第一次承认这场战斗是肢体冲突。
I'm like, "And then what happens?" He's like, "She started getting me into a headlock." And I said, "What happened when she got you into a headlock?" And he says, "I had to push her down onto the ground." And I said, "What happened after she was on the ground?" And he says, "I had to hold her down." But he says, "I had to put my hands on her neck, and I didn't let go until she stopped moving."
我想，“然后会发生什么？”他就像是，“她开始让我陷入困境。”我说：“当她把你的头锁住时发生了什么？”他说：“我不得不把她推倒在地上。”我说：“她倒在地上之后发生了什么？”他说：“我必须按住她。”但他说，“我不得不把手放在她的脖子上，直到她停止移动我才松开。”
Stephanie went outside and called the police.
斯蒂芬妮出去报了警。
Later, after Ben's arrest, after he directed a caravan of police cars to the vacant farmhouse where he'd dumped Nancy's body, after he'd cried and said he was sorry and was taken to jail, Detective Hemphill told Stephanie-- and he meant it as a compliment-- that they couldn't have done it without her.
后来，在本被捕后，在他指挥一队警车前往他把南希的尸体扔在那里的空置农舍后，在他哭着道歉并被送进监狱后，亨普希尔警探告诉斯蒂芬妮——他的意思是一种恭维——没有她，他们不可能做到这一点。
And when he said that, I felt horrible.
当他这么说的时候，我感到很可怕。
Because I said-- I was thinking, well that sucks, because I got him in jail.
因为我说——我在想，这太糟糕了，因为我把他关进了监狱。
And he said, "You ever think about a law enforcement job?
他说：“你有没有想过从事执法工作？
I think you really should consider going into that field.
我认为你真的应该考虑进入这个领域。
You're really good at it." And I just kept remember thinking I hated hearing that, because I got him in trouble.
你真的很擅长。”我一直记得我讨厌听到这个，因为我给他带来了麻烦。
And I didn't want to get him in trouble.
而且我不想给他带来麻烦。
He was just a good guy.
他只是一个好人。
And I know it sounds really, really weird to hear that, but he was a really-- Ben was a good guy.
我知道这听起来真的非常奇怪，但他确实是一个好人。
I don't know what happened or why he would do something that bad.
我不知道发生了什么事，也不知道他为什么会做那么糟糕的事。
Well, did you guys have a chance to ask him that?
那么，你们有机会问他这个问题吗？
All he said that is just that he snapped.
他所说的只是他厉声说道。
That he couldn't take it anymore because she kept telling him that he was worthless, and a terrible son.
他再也无法忍受了，因为她一直告诉他，他一文不值，是个糟糕的儿子。
And saying very nasty things that he couldn't take anymore, he'd heard his whole life.
还说出了他再也无法忍受的非常下流的话，他一生都在听。
But 30 years later, she was still saying the same thing, that she wishes he was never born.
但30年后，她仍然在说同样的话，她希望他从未出生。
When you heard that, did you feel angry at her at all?
当你听到这句话的时候，你有没有生她的气呢？
Very mad at her.
对她很生气。
Josh Martin And we knew he wasn't lying.
乔什·马丁 我们知道他没有说谎。
Because these were things he had heard his whole life.
因为这些都是他听了一辈子的话。
Yeah, she really-- she could get very, very nasty.
是的，她真的——她可能会变得非常非常令人讨厌。
And we felt like she pushed him to do this.
我们觉得她强迫他这样做。
And that how dare she say these things and expect nothing to happen after that?
她怎么敢说这些话，然后就指望什么都不会发生呢？
It probably took like a good year before we actually started being mad at him and not her.
可能过了整整一年，我们才真正开始生他的气，而不是她。
After Ben's arrest, the one thing that didn't change was his brothers wanting to help him.
本被捕后，唯一没有改变的是他的兄弟们想要帮助他。
Their goal now was to keep Ben from spending the rest of his life in prison.
他们现在的目标是让本不要在监狱里度过余生。
Using their mother's life insurance money, they hired a defense attorney, and told the court about how their mother had treated Ben.
他们用母亲的人寿保险金聘请了一名辩护律师，并向法庭讲述了他们的母亲如何对待本。
When Ben pleaded guilty to a reduced charge of aggravated manslaughter, the state asked for the maximum sentence, 30 years.
当本承认严重过失杀人罪的减刑后，州政府要求判处最高刑期 30 年。
At the sentencing hearing, the prosecutor described the gruesome details of Ben's crime, including the fact that he'd kept Nancy's dead body in the house for days before dumping it.
在量刑听证会上，检察官描述了本犯罪的可怕细节，包括他将南希的尸体放在家里好几天才扔掉。
In the end, saying he was giving slight to moderate weight to the reports of abuse, the judge sentenced Benjamin Martin to 15 years in prison.
最后，法官表示他对虐待报告给予轻微到中等重视，判处本杰明·马丁 15 年监禁。
About a year after Nancy's death, like Stephanie mentioned earlier, something shifted for her and Josh.
南希去世大约一年后，就像斯蒂芬妮之前提到的那样，她和乔什的情况发生了变化。
Their anger at Nancy began to fade.
他们对南希的愤怒开始消退。
And their memories of her-- the good ones-- flooded back.
他们对她的记忆——美好的记忆——涌了回来。
Josh started having this recurring dream where his mom came home and everything was fine.
乔什开始经常做这样的梦：他妈妈回家了，一切都很好。
He'd be so happy, and he'd wake up crying.
他会很高兴，然后他会哭着醒来。
It doesn't even need to be a dream.
它甚至不需要是一个梦。
It can be something silly.
这可能是一些愚蠢的事情。
Like we're watching TV and-- or I watch Say Yes to the Dress , because we're trying to get married and I like to look at the dresses and stuff.
就像我们在看电视一样——或者我看《对这件衣服说是》，因为我们正想结婚，我喜欢看衣服和其他东西。
And it's little things like that.
诸如此类的小事。
His mom, she would be here, and she'd help me go shopping for a wedding dress.
他的妈妈，她会在这里，她会帮我去买婚纱。
And that's little things that'll make Josh melt down randomly.
这些小事都会让乔什突然崩溃。
Just complete meltdowns, as in crying, sobbing, I miss my mom, I hate Ben.
完全崩溃了，哭泣，抽泣，我想念我的妈妈，我恨本。
And then the next day, it's OK.
然后第二天就没事了。
And hi, we'll talk to Ben on the phone.
你好，我们将通过电话与本交谈。
And not tell him-- we never tell him about how sad he makes us.
不要告诉他——我们从来没有告诉他他让我们多么伤心。
And we don't tell him that, because we feel like he's already sad enough himself.
我们没有告诉他这些，因为我们觉得他自己已经够伤心了。
And he already has enough guilt on his shoulders that we really don't need to add on to it.
他的肩上已经有足够的内疚了，我们真的不需要再增加了。
But every once in awhile, they can't help it.
但每隔一段时间，他们就会忍不住。
Like this one day when Ben called from prison and Josh was in a bad mood.
就像有一天，本从监狱打来电话，乔什心情不好。
And I don't know why he picked up, but he did.
我不知道他为什么接电话，但他接了电话。
And it--
还有它——
Because Ben kept going on-- Josh Martin --tick me off.
因为本一直在继续——乔什·马丁——让我恼火。
--in his letters about how-- just normal little things.
——在他的信中谈到如何——只是正常的小事。
And, I need a TV.
而且，我需要一台电视。
And maybe you guys can send me money for this, and maybe you guys can send me money for that.
也许你们可以为此寄钱给我，也许你们可以为此寄钱给我。
And we're like, are you kidding?
我们就像，你在开玩笑吗？
Are you really serious?
你真的是认真的吗？
He wants us to send him money?
他要我们给他寄钱吗？
And that was when Josh was like, does he realize what he did to us?
就在那时，乔什想，他意识到他对我们做了什么吗？
He's in there asking us for a radio?
他在那里向我们要收音机吗？
And I think that's-- he lost it.
我认为那是——他失去了它。
He was just like, Ben, you do realize you're in jail for good reason, right?
他就像，本，你确实意识到你有充分的理由入狱，对吧？
You're not just in jail because you accidentally got put there.
你入狱不仅仅是因为你不小心被关在那里。
I mean, you killed my mom.
我的意思是，你杀了我妈妈。
So after you said that, did you feel better having yelled at him a little?
那你说完之后，是不是觉得骂他好一点了呢？
No. I think I felt good doing it at the time.
不，我想我当时感觉很好。
But maybe a few minutes later, I felt a little guilty.
但也许几分钟后，我就感到有点内疚了。
It's a weird feeling to not want to hurt the feelings of the person that killed your mom and wanting to kind of lay it on him at the same time.
这是一种很奇怪的感觉，既不想伤害杀害你母亲的人的感情，又想同时将责任加在他身上。
And I think he might be getting some confusing messages between me being mad at him and me supporting him.
我认为他可能会在我生他的气和我支持他之间收到一些令人困惑的信息。
It seems like in some ways you have to willfully put it out your mind, what he did, in order to have him in your life.
似乎在某些方面，你必须故意将他所做的事情抛在脑后，才能让他出现在你的生活中。
I think you're really right.
我认为你说得很对。
Just, when we talk to him, we can't think about all the details of what happened.
只是，当我们和他交谈时，我们无法思考所发生事情的所有细节。
We have to just somehow block that out.
我们必须以某种方式阻止它。
Because there's no way to talk to somebody when you think, oh, and you left her there for four days.
因为当你想到“哦，你把她留在那里四天了”时，你就没有办法与某人交谈。
To me that's one of the most disturbing parts, is just to have a dead body in your house for four days.
对我来说，最令人不安的部分之一就是一具尸体在你的房子里呆了四天。
That seems just, it's disturbing.
这看起来只是，令人不安。
It's disgusting.
那真令人恶心。
It's horrible.
太可怕了。
It's all the evil words you can think of.
你能想到的脏话全是这些。
What he did was wrong.
他的做法是错误的。
But we want to talk to him.
但我们想和他谈谈。
The more we talk to you, the more we realize we're really confused.
我们和你聊得越多，我们就越意识到我们真的很困惑。
And we didn't realize how five years down the line, we're still completely messed up in our heads of how we feel.
我们没有意识到五年过去了，我们仍然完全不知道自己的感受。
And that makes me sad.
这让我很难过。
Because I thought we had it figured out.
因为我以为我们已经弄清楚了。
And I'm not mad at you for talking to us.
我并没有因为你和我们说话而生你的气。
I just, I can't believe that we still don't understand whether we hate Ben, we like Ben, we hate Nancy, we like Nancy.
我只是，我不敢相信我们仍然不明白我们是否讨厌本，我们喜欢本，我们讨厌南希，我们喜欢南希。
We can't figure that out.
我们无法弄清楚这一点。
And it's been so long.
而且已经过去这么久了。
We really should be able to pin that down.
我们确实应该能够确定这一点。
We can't.
我们不能。
We've seen shrinks.
我们见过收缩者。
We've done all sorts of helpful things.
我们做了各种有用的事情。
And we still are sitting here like, I don't know-- why we can be angry at her and love her.
我们仍然坐在这里，我不知道为什么我们可以对她生气并爱她。
It's just so confusing.
实在是太令人困惑了。
And it hurts.
而且很痛。
In a small way, I recently got a sense of how confusing this all is.
在某种程度上，我最近意识到这一切是多么令人困惑。
A few months ago, Matt's daughter Hannah turned six.
几个月前，马特的女儿汉娜六岁了。
And on her birthday, she got a call from her uncle Ben.
在她生日那天，她接到了叔叔本的电话。
Hi, Ben.
嗨，本。
Ben Martin [SINGING] Happy birthday to you.
本·马丁 [唱歌] 祝你生日快乐。
Happy birthday to you.
祝你生日快乐。
Happy birthday, dear Hannah.
生日快乐，亲爱的汉娜。
Happy birthday to you.
祝你生日快乐。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Ben Martin Oh, you're very welcome.
本·马丁 哦，不客气。
You having a good one so far?
到目前为止你过得还好吗？
Josh and Stephanie have a daughter too.
乔什和斯蒂芬妮也有一个女儿。
Their baby's name is Isabel, and she'll be one in June.
他们的孩子的名字叫伊莎贝尔，她将于六月出生。
So now there are two little girls who one day will have to learn that the Uncle Ben who calls and sings on their birthday, is the same Uncle Ben who's in prison for killing their grandmother.
所以现在有两个小女孩有一天必须知道，在她们生日那天打电话和唱歌的本叔叔就是因杀害祖母而入狱的同一个本叔叔。
And two sets of parents who know that one day, they'll have to explain all of this.
两对父母知道有一天，他们将不得不解释这一切。
They just hope that when the time comes to do it, they'll have figured out how.
他们只是希望，当时机成熟时，他们能够弄清楚如何去做。
I love you, Ben.
我爱你，本。
Ben Martin I love you too Hannah.
本·马丁 我也爱你汉娜。
You take care now.
你现在保重。
Lisa Pollak is one of the producers of our show.
丽莎·波拉克是我们节目的制片人之一。
Coming up, pretending that everything is fine, just fine.
上来了，假装一切都很好，很好。
Nothing unusual going on here-- while the opera plays in the big room next door.
这里没有什么不寻常的事情发生——而隔壁的大房间里正在演奏歌剧。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
一分钟后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our show we choose a theme, of course, bringing you different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，我们的节目每周都会选择一个主题，为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's show, See No Evil, stories of people choosing to bury their heads in the sand, choosing to look at the other way.
今天的节目《勿视邪恶》讲述了人们选择把头埋在沙子里、选择以另一种方式看待的故事。
We've arrived at Act Two of our show.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two, Denying The Invisible.
第二幕，否认看不见的事物。
At this point, lots of people have said that immediately after the Fukushima reactor was hit by an earthquake and tsunami, the Japanese power company TEPCO and the Japanese government were not so forthcoming with the truth.
对此，不少人表示，福岛核反应堆遭受地震和海啸袭击后，日本电力公司和日本政府并没有那么坦白真相。
As you may heard just a few days after the nuclear accident, the head of the American Nuclear Regulatory Commission said that things were a lot worse than the Japanese power company and the government were admitting and suggested that a larger evacuation would be appropriate.
正如你可能在核事故发生几天后听到的那样，美国核管理委员会主席表示，情况比日本电力公司和政府所承认的要糟糕得多，并建议进行更大规模的疏散。
The International Atomic Energy Agency later said the same thing.
国际原子能机构随后也发表了同样的言论。
But as time has gone on, things have improved.
但随着时间的推移，情况有所改善。
The government is posting radiation counts for every Japanese city, every hour.
政府每小时都会发布日本每个城市的辐射计数。
And this week Greenpeace announced that they went out and measured radiation and the government's numbers are accurate.
本周绿色和平组织宣布他们出去测量了辐射，政府的数据是准确的。
And the examples that you hear of Japan not providing timely information are nothing-- really nothing-- compared to the wholesale whitewashing-- the total denial of reality-- at the biggest nuclear accident before Fukushima, which of course was Chernobyl in 1986.
与福岛之前最大的核事故（当然是 1986 年的切尔诺贝利事故）中的大规模粉饰（完全否认现实）相比，你听到的日本没有及时提供信息的例子算不了什么——真的不算什么。
Now, Chernobyl was a much, much bigger nuclear disaster than Fukushima, and much more radiation released.
现在，切尔诺贝利是一场比福岛严重得多的核灾难，释放的辐射也多得多。
There's a great book, published in Russian a decade after the disaster and later translated into English, called Voices From Chernobyl.
有一本很棒的书，在灾难发生十年后用俄语出版，后来翻译成英语，书名叫《切尔诺贝利的声音》。
A reporter named Svetlana Alexievich interviewed hundreds of people who were there.
一位名叫斯韦特兰娜·阿列克谢耶维奇（Svetlana Alexievich）的记者采访了在场的数百人。
And the stories people tell are just stunning and really take you there in a way that few interviews ever do.
人们讲述的故事令人惊叹，并且真正以一种很少有采访能做到的方式带你到达那里。
Reading the book, you realize that not acknowledging just how dangerous the plant was and just how dangerous the situation was, you realize that that was just part of the Soviet system.
读这本书，你会意识到，如果不承认工厂有多么危险，情况有多么危险，你就会意识到这只是苏联体系的一部分。
It took three days for Moscow to even acknowledge that the accident at Chernobyl reactor number four had happened.
莫斯科花了三天时间才承认切尔诺贝利四号反应堆发生了事故。
The population wasn't evacuated immediately, wasn't given potassium iodide to protect themselves, wasn't warned about consuming milk produced in the region that had been contaminated.
没有立即疏散居民，没有给予碘化钾来保护自己，也没有警告人们不要食用受污染地区生产的牛奶。
One of the men interviewed in the book, somebody who was brought in to bury radioactive plants and trees during the clean-up, says the Russian newspaper headlines in the immediate aftermath were all about triumph.
书中接受采访的一名男子在清理工作中被带去掩埋放射性植物和树木，他说，事件发生后俄罗斯报纸的头条新闻都是关于胜利的。
"The Reactor Has Been Defeated!" "Life Goes On." "Chernobyl-- A Place of Achievement." And this man goes on to say, quote, "Just four days after the catastrophe, the red flag was already flying over the fourth reactor.
“反应堆已被击败！” “生活仍在继续。” “切尔诺贝利——成就之地。”这位男子接着说道，“灾难发生后仅仅四天，红旗就已经飘扬在第四个反应堆上空。
It blazed forth.
它燃烧起来。
In a month, the radiation had devoured it.
一个月后，辐射就把它吞噬了。
So they put up another flag.
于是他们又竖起了一面旗帜。
And in another month, they put up another one.
又过了一个月，他们又贴了一张。
I try to imagine how the soldiers felt going up on the roof to replace that flag.
我试着想象士兵们登上屋顶更换那面旗帜的感受。
These were suicide missions.
这些都是自杀性任务。
What would you call this?
你会怎么称呼这个？
Soviet paganism?
苏联异教？
Live sacrifice?"
活祭？”
Another thing about these interviews, they remind of something that hasn't been talked about much in coverage from Japan, and that's what radiation can do to a person.
这些采访的另一件事是，它们让人想起日本报道中没有太多谈论的事情，那就是辐射对人的影响。
At our story meeting for our radio show this week, we were all talking about this.
在本周的广播节目故事会上，我们都在谈论这个。
What can it do to you again?
它又能对你做什么呢？
The most heartbreaking interview in the book is with a woman named Lyudmilla Ignatenko, whose name I'm probably mangling here.
书中最令人心碎的采访是对一位名叫柳德米拉·伊格纳坚科 (Lyudmilla Ignatenko) 的女士的采访，我可能在这里弄乱了她的名字。
Her husband, Vasily, got dosed with about as severe a dose of radiation that somebody can get.
她的丈夫瓦西里受到的辐射剂量与一般人所能接受的辐射剂量相当。
He was a firefighter sent in the first day of the explosions at the Chernobyl reactor number four.
他是切尔诺贝利四号反应堆爆炸第一天被派去的消防员。
He was sent in in his shirt sleeves, no protective equipment at all, and was in a hospital by 7:00 that night, with radiation poisoning so severe that over the next week his skin started coming off in layers.
他被送进医院时只穿着衬衫，根本没有任何防护装备，当晚 7:00 就被送往医院，辐射中毒非常严重，以至于在接下来的一周里，他的皮肤开始分层脱落。
Within two weeks, he was coughing up pieces of his lungs and another organs as his body disintegrated from inside.
两周之内，当他的身体从内部解体时，他咳出了肺部和其他器官的碎片。
But they were newlyweds.
但他们是新婚夫妇。
And although it was forbidden, Lyudmilla somehow got herself into the hospital where the radiation patients were so she could be with him.
尽管这是被禁止的，柳德米拉还是以某种方式进入了放疗病人所在的医院，这样她就可以和他在一起。
Inside there, the doctors and nurses would give him shots and treat him through this transparent curtain that would shield them from radiation that was now pouring out of his body.
在里面，医生和护士会给他注射疫苗，并通过透明的窗帘对他进行治疗，这可以保护他们免受现在从他体内涌出的辐射。
But she went inside that curtain day after day, to sit with him.
但她日复一日地走进那帘子，和他坐在一起。
Here's an excerpt from that interview read by an actor, Sarah Mollo-Christensen.
以下是演员莎拉·莫洛-克里斯滕森 (Sarah Mollo-Christensen) 朗读的采访摘录。
I go back to the hospital and there's an orange on the bedside table.
我回到医院，发现床头柜上有一个橘子。
A big one, and pink.
很大的一个，粉红色的。
He's smiling.
他在微笑。
"I got a gift.
“我收到了一份礼物。
Take it." Meanwhile, the nurse is gesturing through the film that I can't eat it.
拿去吧。”与此同时，护士通过影片示意我不能吃它。
It's been near him awhile, so not only can you not eat it, you shouldn't even touch it.
它已经在他附近一段时间了，所以你不仅不能吃它，甚至不能碰它。
"Come on, eat it," he says.
“来吧，吃它，”他说。
"You like oranges." I take the orange in my hand.
“你喜欢橘子。”我把橙子拿在手里。
Meanwhile, he shuts his eyes and goes to sleep.
与此同时，他闭上眼睛睡着了。
They were always giving him shots to put him to sleep.
他们总是给他打针，让他入睡。
The nurse is looking at me in horror.
护士惊恐地看着我。
And me?
而我呢？
I'm ready to do whatever it takes so that he doesn't think about death.
我已经准备好不惜一切代价让他不再考虑死亡。
And about the fact that his death is horrible, that I'm afraid of him.
事实上，他的死是可怕的，我害怕他。
There's a fragment of some conversation, I'm remembering it.
有一段对话的片段，我现在还记得。
Someone is saying, "You have to understand, this is not your husband anymore, not a beloved person, but a radioactive object with a strong density of poisoning.
有人在说：“你要明白，这不再是你的丈夫，不再是心爱的人，而是一个具有很强中毒密度的放射性物体。
You're not suicidal.
你没有自杀倾向。
Get ahold of yourself." And I'm like someone who's lost her mind.
把握好自己。”而我就像一个失去理智的人。
"But I love him!
“但我爱他！
I love him!" He's sleeping, and I'm whispering, "I love you." Walking in the hospital courtyard, "I love you." Carrying his sanitary tray, "I love you."
我爱他！”他睡着了，我低声说：“我爱你。”走在医院院子里，“我爱你。”端着卫生托盘，“我爱你。”
I remembered how we used to live at home.
我记得我们以前住在家里的样子。
He only fell asleep at night after he'd taken my hand.
晚上他拉着我的手才睡着了。
That was a habit of his-- to hold my hand while he slept.
这是他的一个习惯——睡觉时握着我的手。
All night.
整个晚上。
So in the hospital, I take his hand and don't let go.
所以在医院里，我拉着他的手不放开。
Some of the interviews in this book deal a lot on the see no evil aspect of what happened at Chernobyl-- how the government and even the people on the ground dealing with the emergency would turn a blind eye to the truth of what they were dealing with, because the Soviet system just wasn't set up to handle the truth.
本书中的一些采访涉及很多关于切尔诺贝利发生的事情的不邪恶方面——政府甚至当地处理紧急情况的人们如何对他们正在处理的事情的真相视而不见，因为苏联的制度根本就不是为了处理真相而建立的。
And so for most people in the middle of the crisis, at many points it was just much easier to look the other way.
因此，对于大多数处于危机之中的人来说，在很多时候，视而不见更容易。
We have one more reading from the book, a longer reading from an interview with Zoya Danilovna Bruk, who was environmental inspector in the region.
我们还读到了这本书的另一读物，这是对该地区环境检查员卓娅·丹尼洛芙娜·布鲁克 (Zoya Danilovna Bruk) 的采访的更长读物。
I worked at the inspection center for environmental defense.
我在环保检测中心工作。
We were waiting for some kind of instructions, but we didn't receive any.
我们正在等待某种指示，但我们没有收到任何指示。
There were very few professionals on our staff, especially among the directors.
我们的员工中，尤其是董事中，专业人士很少。
They were retired colonels, former party workers, retirees, or other undesirables.
他们是退休上校、前党员、退休人员或其他不受欢迎的人。
If you messed up somewhere else, they'd send you to us.
如果你在其他地方搞砸了，他们会把你送到我们这里。
Then you'd sit there shuffling papers.
然后你就坐在那里翻动文件。
At that time, my notions of nuclear power stations were utterly idyllic.
那时，我对核电站的想法完全是田园诗般的。
At school and at the university, we'd been taught that this was a magical factory that made energy out of nothing, where people in white robes sat and pushed buttons.
在学校和大学里，我们被告知这是一个神奇的工厂，可以无中生有地制造能量，穿着白袍的人们坐在里面按下按钮。
Chernobyl blew up when we weren't prepared.
当我们没有做好准备时，切尔诺贝利爆炸了。
And also, there wasn't any information.
而且，也没有任何信息。
There were rumors-- someone read in some paper, someone heard, someone said.
有谣言——有人在报纸上读到，有人听到，有人说。
We went around the region collecting samples of water, earth, and taking them to Minsk.
我们走遍了该地区，收集了水和土壤样本，并将其带到明斯克。
Our assistants were grumbling, "We're carrying hotcakes." We had no defense, no special clothing.
我们的助手抱怨道：“我们拿着烤饼。”我们没有防御，没有特殊的衣服。
You'd be sitting in the front seat and behind you there were samples just glowing.
你坐在前排座位上，你身后有一些样品在发光。
And by this point, they started sending us out on inspections.
此时，他们开始派我们出去检查。
I was sent to a timber processing plant.
我被送到一家木材加工厂。
They weren't receiving any less timber.
他们收到的木材并没有减少。
The plan hadn't been altered, so they kept to it.
计划没有改变，所以他们继续执行。
I turned on my instrument at the warehouse and it started going nuts.
我在仓库打开仪器，它开始发疯。
The boards were OK.
董事会还可以。
But if I turned it on near the brooms, it went off the chart.
但如果我在扫帚附近打开它，它就会出问题。
"Where are the brooms from?" "Krasnopol." And Krasnopol, as it later turned out, was the most contaminated place in the Mogilev region.
“扫帚是从哪里来的？” “克拉斯诺波尔。”后来证明，克拉斯诺波尔是莫吉廖夫地区污染最严重的地方。
"We have one shipment left.
“我们还剩下一批货物。
The others went out already." And how are you going to find them in all the towns they were sent to?
其他人都已经出去了。”你怎样才能在他们被派往的所有城镇找到他们？
They had protocols written up for burying radioactive earth.
他们制定了掩埋放射性地球的协议。
We buried earth in earth-- such a strange human activity.
我们把土埋在土里——这是多么奇怪的人类活动。
According to the instructions, we were supposed to conduct a geological survey before burying anything, to determine that there was no groundwater within four to six meters of the burial site and that the depth of the pit wasn't very great.
按照指示，埋东西之前要先进行地质勘察，确定埋点周围四六米范围内没有地下水，坑的深度也不是很大。
And also that the walls and bottoms of the pit be lined with polyethylene film.
并且坑的墙壁和底部衬有聚乙烯薄膜。
That's what the instructions said.
说明书上就是这么说的。
In real life it was, of course, different.
当然，在现实生活中情况有所不同。
As always.
一如既往。
There was no geological survey.
没有地质调查。
They'd point their fingers and say, "Dig here." The excavator digs.
他们会用手指着说：“挖这里。”挖掘机挖。
"How deep did you go" "Who the hell knows?
“你到底陷了多深” “谁知道呢？
I stopped when I hit water." They were digging right into the water.
当我碰到水时我就停了下来。”他们直接往水里挖。
My longest assignment was in the Krasnopolsk region, which was the worst.
我最长的任务是在克拉斯诺波尔斯克地区，那是最糟糕的。
In order to keep the radionuclides from washing off the fields into the rivers, we needed to follow the instructions again.
为了防止放射性核素从田地冲刷到河流中，我们需要再次按照说明进行操作。
You had to plow double furrows, leave a gap, and then again put in double furrows, and so on, with the same intervals.
您必须犁双犁沟，留出间隙，然后再次犁双犁沟，依此类推，间隔相同。
According to the instructions, the tractors laying down the furrows were supposed to have driver's cabins that were hermetically sealed and protected.
根据说明，铺设犁沟的拖拉机应该有密封和保护的驾驶室。
I saw the tractor.
我看到了拖拉机。
And the cabin was indeed hermetically sealed.
而且船舱确实是密封的。
But the tractor was sitting there, and the driver was lying on the grass, taking a break.
但拖拉机就坐在那里，司机则躺在草地上休息。
"Are you crazy?
“你疯了吗？
Haven't you been warned?" "But I put my sweatshirt over my head," he says.
没有警告过你吗？” “但我把运动衫套在头上，”他说。
It's such a beautiful land out there.
那里有一片如此美丽的土地。
The old forests are still there-- ancient forests, the winding little steams, the color of tea and clear as day, green grass.
老林还在——古老的森林，蜿蜒的小蒸汽，茶色如昼，绿草如茵。
People calling to each other through the forest.
人们穿过森林互相呼唤。
For them it was so natural, like waking up in the morning and walking out into your garden.
对他们来说，这很自然，就像早上醒来走进花园一样。
And you're standing there knowing it's all been poisoned.
而你站在那里，知道一切都被下了毒。
We ran into an old lady.
我们遇到了一位老太太。
"Children, tell me, can I drink milk from my cow?" We looked down at the ground, we have our orders-- collect data, but don't interact with the locals.
“孩子们，告诉我，我可以喝我的牛的牛奶吗？”我们低头看着地面，我们接到命令——收集数据，但不要与当地人互动。
Finally, the driver speaks up.
终于，司机发话了。
"Grandma, how old are you?
“奶奶，您几岁了？
" "Oh, more than 80.
” “哦，八十多了。
Maybe more than that.
也许不止于此。
My documents got burned during the war." "Then drink all you want."
我的文件在战争期间被烧毁了。” “那就喝你想喝的吧。”
I feel worst of all for the people in the villages.
我对村子里的人们感到最难过。
They couldn't understand what had happened.
他们无法理解发生了什么事。
They wanted to believe scientists or any educated person, like they would a priest.
他们想要相信科学家或任何受过教育的人，就像他们相信牧师一样。
But they were told, "Everything's fine.
但他们被告知：“一切都很好。
There's nothing to fear.
没什么好害怕的。
Just wash your hands before eating."
吃饭前先洗手就可以了。”
People turned out to be worse than I thought.
事实证明，人们比我想象的更糟糕。
And me, too.
我也是。
I'm also worse.
我也更惨了
Now I know this about myself.
现在我对自己了解了这一点。
Of course, I admit this, and for me that's already important.
当然，我承认这一点，对我来说这已经很重要了。
But, again, an example.
但是，再举一个例子。
In one kolkhoz there are, say, five villages.
比如说，一个集体农庄里有五个村庄。
Three are "clean," two are "dirty." Between them there are maybe two or three kilometers.
三个是“干净的”，两个是“肮脏的”。它们之间大约有两三公里。
Now, the "clean" village is building a livestock complex, and they need to get some clean feed.
现在，“干净”村正在建设畜牧综合场，他们需要一些干净的饲料。
Where will they get it?
他们会从哪里得到它？
The wind blows the radioactive dust from one field to the next.
风将放射性尘埃从一个田地吹到另一个田地。
It's all one land.
都是一地。
In order to build the complex, they need some papers signed.
为了建造这个综合体，他们需要签署一些文件。
And the commission that signs them, I'm on that commission.
签署这些协议的委员会，我就是该委员会的成员。
Everyone knows we can't sign those papers.
每个人都知道我们不能签署这些文件。
It's a crime.
这是犯罪行为。
But in the end, I found a justification for myself, just like everyone else.
但最终，我和其他人一样，为自己找到了理由。
I thought, the problem of clean feed is not a problem for an environmental inspector.
我想，清洁饲料的问题对环保督察来说不是问题。
Everyone found a justification for themselves-- an explanation.
每个人都为自己找到了一个理由——一个解释。
And basically, I found out that the frightening things in life happen quietly and naturally.
基本上，我发现生活中可怕的事情是悄悄地、自然地发生的。
Kelly Coffield Park, reading an interview with an environmental inspector from the area near Chernobyl at the time the nuclear accident there.
凯利·科菲尔德公园正在阅读对切尔诺贝利核事故发生时附近地区环境检查员的采访。
It's an excerpt from this book of unusually vivid interviews called Voices From Chernobyl , by reporter Svetlana Alexievich and translated by Keith Gessin.
这是本书的摘录，书中收录了异常生动的采访，名为《切尔诺贝利之声》，作者是记者斯维特兰娜·阿列克谢耶维奇，基思·盖辛翻译。
[MUSIC - "A HARD RAIN'S A GONNA FALL" BY LEON RUSSELL]
[音乐 - LEON RUSSELL 的《一场大雨即将降临》]
Act Three, "I Worked At The Kennedy Center And All I Got Was This Lousy T-Shirt." David Kestenbaum has the story of one man's-- this is actually his cousin that this story is about-- one man's search for evil, evil-- I said evil-- in a place that you wouldn't expect.
第三幕，“我在肯尼迪中心工作，但我得到的只是这件糟糕的 T 恤。”大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆有一个关于一个人的故事——这实际上是他的表弟，这个故事是关于一个人在一个你意想不到的地方寻找邪恶，邪恶——我说的是邪恶。
If the Obamas want to go out for a theater date or to the ballet or to hear Yo-Yo Ma, there is a place that has a special presidential box for them to sit in-- the Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts in Washington DC.
如果奥巴马夫妇想出去看戏、看芭蕾舞或听马友友的话，有一个地方有专门的总统包厢供他们坐——华盛顿特区的肯尼迪表演艺术中心。
Plush seats, soaring ceilings, all that stuff.
豪华的座椅、高耸的天花板等等。
But when my cousin Dan Weiss worked there in the 1970s, he spent a lot of time in the basement.
但当我的表弟 Dan Weiss 在 20 世纪 70 年代在那里工作时，他花了很多时间在地下室里。
He was a smart, idealistic kid, still in college.
他是一个聪明、理想主义的孩子，还在上大学。
The basement is where the stockroom was for the gift shops upstairs.
地下室是楼上礼品店的储藏室。
When I started, I was basically a stock clerk.
当我开始工作时，我基本上是一名股票职员。
I would stock the gift shops each day with merchandise.
我每天都会在礼品店里备货。
And I ran up and down the stairs all day long-- up and down, up and down, up and down.
我整天在楼梯上跑上跑下——上跑下，上跑下，上跑下。
That's a skill that was in demand at the gift shops, because the gift shops were staffed by volunteers, a lot of them retired.
这是礼品店需要的一项技能，因为礼品店的工作人员都是志愿者，其中很多人已经退休。
300 volunteers.
300名志愿者。
All of our sales people were well-intentioned volunteers.
我们所有的销售人员都是善意的志愿者。
Many of them simply wanted to be in the Kennedy Center to support the mission.
他们中的许多人只是想在肯尼迪中心支持这一使命。
So these are retired people who love the theater, or love opera, or love symphonies.
这些都是热爱戏剧、热爱歌剧、热爱交响乐的退休人士。
That's right.
这是正确的。
I would suspect in my experience that not a single one of them had had a retail job before they took this job.
根据我的经验，我怀疑他们中没有一个人在接受这份工作之前从事过零售工作。
The gift shops-- there were two-- were run kind of like lemonade stands.
礼品店有两家，经营方式有点像柠檬水摊。
They sold t-shirts, books, commemorative spoons, but no cash registers, no receipts, just a little cash box.
他们卖T恤、书籍、纪念勺子，但没有收银机，没有收据，只有一个小钱箱。
The volunteers would come in whenever their schedules allowed.
只要时间允许，志愿者就会进来。
The Kennedy Center had just opened, and at the beginning, everything seemed sort of charmed.
肯尼迪中心刚刚开业，一开始一切都显得有些迷人。
There weren't a lot of a rules.
没有太多规则。
For instance, when Dan found a stray cat meowing and hungry, he kept it in the stock room with all the merchandise.
例如，当丹发现一只流浪猫喵喵叫并且饥饿时，他把它和所有商品一起放在储藏室里。
The cat got kind of famous.
这只猫有点出名了。
He lived down there and had the parade of visitors.
他住在那儿，接待了大批游客。
Leonard Bernstein went in to pet him, and Mikhail Baryshnikov.
伦纳德·伯恩斯坦（Leonard Bernstein）和米哈伊尔·巴里什尼科夫（Mikhail Baryshnikov）进去抚摸他。
The gift shops, I should explain, were not a small operation.
我应该解释一下，礼品店的经营规模并不小。
They sold $400,000 worth of stuff a year.
他们每年售出价值 40 万美元的东西。
And while no one liked to talk about it, in these lovely gift shops, in this lovely building where the National Symphony played, something was seriously wrong.
虽然没有人愿意谈论这件事，但在这些可爱的礼品店里，在这座国家交响乐团演奏的可爱建筑里，有些事情出了严重的问题。
The gift shop operation was clearly underperforming.
礼品店的经营显然表现不佳。
There wasn't very much money making it to the bank, given all the merchandise that we were selling.
考虑到我们销售的所有商品，银行并没有多少钱。
And no one really understood why that was happening.
没有人真正理解为什么会发生这种情况。
The nice man running the gift shop at the time got fired.
当时经营礼品店的好人被解雇了。
And Dan suddenly got a big promotion.
丹突然得到了很大的晋升。
At age 21, he became manager of gift shops at the Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts.
21 岁时，他成为肯尼迪表演艺术中心礼品店的经理。
His new job-- figure out where the money was disappearing to.
他的新工作是找出钱消失的地方。
Dan didn't have any business training.
丹没有接受过任何商业培训。
He'd majored in art history and psychology.
他主修艺术史和心理学。
Aside from a stint in high school at an ice cream parlor, this was his first real job, his first time seeing how business worked.
除了高中时在冰淇淋店工作过一段时间之外，这是他第一份真正的工作，也是他第一次了解商业运作方式。
But he's a pretty driven guy.
但他是一个很有动力的人。
And if you give him a task, he's going to sink his teeth in.
如果你给他一项任务，他就会全力以赴。
And the first thing he did was a bit of math.
他做的第一件事就是学一点数学。
So I tried to figure that out-- how much money were we losing, how much merchandise were we losing?
所以我试图弄清楚——我们损失了多少钱，我们损失了多少商品？
And in the retail sales business, they use a term called shrinkage.
在零售业务中，他们使用一个术语，称为收缩。
And that is the percentage of overall sales that you might be losing somehow-- merchandise, cash, who knows?
这就是你可能以某种方式损失的总销售额的百分比——商品、现金，谁知道呢？
And it was almost 40% when I took the job initially.
当我最初接手这份工作时，这个比例几乎是 40%。
That means that $0.40 on every dollar that was supposed to go into the bank-- we weren't sure where it was going, but it wasn't going into the bank.
这意味着每 1 美元应该存入银行的就是 0.40 美元——我们不确定它去了哪里，但它并没有存入银行。
And what's a typical number out there in the world for small businesses?
世界上小型企业的典型数字是多少？
Back in the day when I did this work in the 1970s, a big shrinkage number at Macy's or at some other store might be, probably 3%.
早在 20 世纪 70 年代我做这项工作的时候，梅西百货或其他一些商店的大收缩数字可能是 3%。
And you were 40%.
而你是 40%。
Dan Weiss We were big time.
丹·韦斯 我们很开心。
We were 40%.
我们是40%。
Somewhere there had to be a thief.
某个地方一定有小偷。
Dan ran through the entire gift shop operation methodically, obsessively.
丹有条不紊地、着迷地浏览了整个礼品店的运作。
And began to suspect one guy-- a younger guy in his 20s, one of the other paid employees who helped run the place.
然后开始怀疑一个人——一个 20 多岁的年轻人，也是帮助经营这个地方的其他受薪员工之一。
The guy's job was to transfer the money from the cash box to the safe at closing time.
那家伙的工作是在关门时间把钱从钱箱转移到保险箱里。
Dan's next move?
丹的下一步行动？
Well, if you're the manager of a gift shop, stealing from the cash box is kind of a strange-sized problem to have.
好吧，如果你是一家礼品店的经理，从钱箱里偷东西是一个奇怪的问题。
You don't call the FBI.
你不会打电话给联邦调查局。
Do you call the security guards?
你叫保安吗？
Do you call the police?
你报警吗？
It turns out, if you work at the Kennedy Center, there is someone special you call.
事实证明，如果你在肯尼迪中心工作，你就会给一个特别的人打电话。
I had to engage the United States Park Police detective agents, who oversaw the Kennedy Center.
我不得不与负责监督肯尼迪中心的美国公园警察侦探联系。
Special investigative arm of the United States Park Service.
美国公园管理局的特别调查部门。
Who knew they had one?
谁知道他们有一个？
Dan Weiss I didn't until that began.
丹·韦斯 直到那件事开始我才知道。
The Park Service assigned Dan a detective.
公园管理局给丹指派了一名侦探。
His name was Loveless.
他的名字叫无爱。
And I thought what a great name for a detective.
我觉得对于一个侦探来说这是一个多么伟大的名字啊。
He was actually quite charming.
他其实很有魅力。
Detective Loveless had actually seen a lot in his time.
洛夫莱斯侦探一生中其实见过很多东西。
And he was amused by the idea of a thief at a place known for opera, musicals, and ballet.
他对在一个以歌剧、音乐剧和芭蕾舞闻名的地方出现小偷的想法感到好笑。
But he gave the job his full attention.
但他全神贯注于这项工作。
Told Dan, if you want to catch this guy we're going to have to plan out a sting operation.
告诉丹，如果你想抓住这个人，我们就必须计划一次诱捕行动。
So after work one day, detective Loveless picked up Dan in an unmarked car and drove to a secret location.
于是，有一天下班后，洛夫莱斯侦探开着一辆没有标记的汽车接了丹，然后开往一个秘密地点。
Well, his favorite place to meet-- which was, I suppose if you're a policeman, a secret place, but it didn't seem so to me-- was he would pick me up on the street in Washington and drive over Memorial Bridge.
嗯，他最喜欢见面的地方——我想，如果你是一名警察，那是一个秘密的地方，但对我来说似乎并非如此——他会在华盛顿的街道上接我，然后开车经过纪念桥。
And at the traffic circle on the other side of Memorial Bridge, right in front of Arlington Cemetery-- which is a highway-- he would drive up the curb and park his car right there, smack on the grass in the middle of the traffic circle on Memorial Bridge.
在纪念桥另一侧的交通环岛，就在阿灵顿公墓（这是一条高速公路）前面，他会把车开到路边，把车停在那里，停在纪念桥交通环岛中间的草地上。
And we would spend 20 minutes or a half an hour sitting there, probably seen by 25,000 people who drove by, in our secret place.
我们会在我们的秘密地点坐上 20 分钟或半小时，可能有 25,000 名开车路过的人看到了。
But I guess he assumed if you're right out in the middle of everything, nobody notices you.
但我猜他认为如果你在一切事情的中间，没有人会注意到你。
One Friday night, they set the trap.
一个星期五的晚上，他们设下陷阱。
Dan walks as nonchalantly as possible into the Kennedy Center gift shop, says hi to the volunteers like nothing's up at all, and puts some marked bills into the cash box.
丹尽可能地若无其事地走进肯尼迪中心礼品店，像没事一样向志愿者打招呼，然后将一些标记的钞票放入钱箱。
Then he walks outside to rejoin Detective Loveless, who's chosen the most cliched spot for the stakeout-- in the bushes.
然后他走到外面与洛夫莱斯侦探会合，后者选择了最老套的监视地点——灌木丛中。
They hide in the bushes, on the other side of the road and peer across into the gift shop with binoculars.
他们躲在路另一边的灌木丛中，用双筒望远镜观察对面的礼品店。
I should tell you it was February and cold.
我应该告诉你那是二月而且很冷。
It may have been the coldest day in the history of Washington.
这可能是华盛顿历史上最冷的一天。
And there we were outside, shivering in the bushes, and he's looking through the binoculars.
我们在外面的灌木丛中瑟瑟发抖，而他正在通过双筒望远镜观察。
And he would tell me, "Somebody's coming to the gift shop.
他会告诉我，“有人来到礼品店。
Let me get you to take a look at this.
让我带你看看这个。
Tell me who this is.
告诉我这是谁。
Who is this?
这是谁？
Is this our guy?
这是我们的家伙吗？
Is this our guy?" And he would hand me the binoculars.
这是我们的人吗？”他会把双筒望远镜递给我。
And I would look and I'd say, "No, that's not our guy.
我会看着然后说：“不，那不是我们的人。
That's an 85-year-old woman, who's selling spoons to a customer." And he'd say, "All right.
那是一位 85 岁的女士，正在向顾客卖勺子。”他会说：“好吧。
Just checking." And that's how it would go.
只是检查一下。”事情就是这样。
Every time someone went near the gift shop, he would pass me the binoculars.
每次有人靠近礼品店时，他都会把双筒望远镜递给我。
And then at just about the exact time, the staff member showed up to close up the cash register.
就在这时，工作人员出现了，关闭了收银机。
And he got very excited.
他非常兴奋。
He said, "He's here.
他说：“他在这里。
He's here.
他在这里。
Let's go."
我们走吧。”
They intercept the guy on the way to his car.
他们在那个人走向汽车的路上拦截了他。
And find, yes, marked bills in his pocket.
是的，在他的口袋里发现了标记的钞票。
They put the guy in handcuffs and arrest him.
他们给那家伙戴上手铐并逮捕了他。
And so, you might think, case closed.
所以，你可能会想，案件结束了。
Right?
正确的？
But the amount of money they found on the thief, it wasn't that much.
但他们在小偷身上发现的钱并没有那么多。
$60, just $60.
60 美元，只要 60 美元。
In fact, when the case goes before a judge, the judge basically throws it out.
事实上，当案件提交给法官时，法官基本上会驳回它。
All of which meant the problem Dan faced was much bigger.
所有这些都意味着丹面临的问题要大得多。
Remember, the amount of revenue they were missing each year was over $150,000.
请记住，他们每年损失的收入超过 150,000 美元。
Dan, though, had another plan of attack-- a much more ordinary one.
不过，丹还有另一种攻击计划——一个更为普通的计划。
Paperwork.
文书工作。
If the gift shop had been run like a lemonade stand, now he wants it to run like a lemonade factory.
如果礼品店像柠檬水摊一样经营，那么现在他希望它像柠檬水工厂一样经营。
Dan sets up an inventory system.
丹建立了一个库存系统。
He posts price lists in the gift shop-- hats cost this much, t-shirts this much.
他在礼品店张贴了价目表——帽子多少钱，T 恤多少钱。
Tells the retirees volunteering in the gift shop, "When you sell something, write it down." In other words, he basically reinvents on his own what any normal retail business would call record-keeping.
告诉在礼品店做志愿者的退休人员，“当你卖东西时，把它写下来。”换句话说，他基本上是自己重新发明了任何正常零售企业所说的记录保存。
And lo and behold, the leaking stops.
你瞧，泄漏停止了。
The mysterious losses-- that 40% shrinkage-- began to steadily shrink.
神秘的损失——40%的萎缩——开始稳步缩小。
He got into Macy's territory, down to single digits.
他进入了梅西百货的领地，跌至个位数。
At the gift shop, Dan was a hero.
在礼品店，丹是一位英雄。
But his victory meant something kind of unsettling.
但他的胜利意味着某种令人不安的事情。
It meant the problem hadn't been a thief.
这意味着问题不是小偷。
It was lots of thieves.
当时有很多小偷。
In fact, as best as Dan could figure in that sea of 300 volunteers, those elderly art lovers, a bunch of them were taking stuff.
事实上，据 Dan 的推测，在这 300 名志愿者的海洋中，那些老年艺术爱好者中，有很多人都在拿东西。
And the paid staff who worked in other parts of building, they were grabbing stuff too.
在大楼其他部分工作的带薪员工也在抢东西。
And people would walk by and pet the cat, and see merchandise and pick it up, because it was just stuff on a table, that people thought it was OK.
人们会走过并抚摸猫，看到商品并拿起它，因为它只是桌子上的东西，人们认为没关系。
And people weren't just grabbing t-shirts.
人们抢的不仅仅是 T 恤。
Some had been taking cash-- mostly small amounts, like a cab fare home.
有些人拿了现金——大多是小额现金，比如回家的出租车费。
After all, they'd just worked three hours for free.
毕竟，他们刚刚免费工作了三个小时。
It's just a few dollars.
只需几美元。
What's the harm?
有什么坏处呢？
But still, they put their hands in the cash box, took some bills out, and put the money in their pockets.
但他们还是把手伸进了钱箱，拿出了一些钞票，然后把钱放进了口袋里。
That's stealing.
这就是偷窃。
They were all stealing.
他们都在偷窃。
There were retired volunteers there taking money out of the cash box?
那里有退休志愿者从钱箱里拿钱吗？
There were some volunteers who were taking money.
有一些志愿者正在拿钱。
There were some young employees who were taking money.
有一些年轻员工在拿钱。
There were lots of people who were taking merchandise, at every level.
有很多人在拿走各个级别的商品。
People were all stealing from this wonderful, uplifting organization because they could.
人们都从这个美妙的、令人振奋的组织中偷窃，因为他们可以。
Because it was easy and it was available.
因为它很容易而且可用。
If this population, these people, well-meaning, community-minded, classical music fans-- if some of them were stealing, it meant anyone would.
如果这群人、这些人、善意的、有社区意识的古典音乐迷——如果他们中的一些人在偷窃，那就意味着任何人都会这样做。
For Dan, that was a sad thing.
对于丹来说，这是一件悲伤的事情。
And I guess that's the lesson I learned in 1979.
我想这就是我在 1979 年学到的教训。
We are going to take things from each other if we have a chance.
如果有机会，我们会互相夺取东西。
I never understood that.
我一直不明白这一点。
It didn't feel OK to me then.
当时我感觉不太好。
It doesn't feel OK to me now.
我现在感觉不太好。
And it wasn't a terrifically optimistic lesson, that many people need there to be controls around them, for them to do the right thing.
这并不是一个非常乐观的教训，许多人需要对他们进行控制，以便他们做正确的事情。
And if there aren't any controls around or any supervision, they may not do the right thing.
如果没有任何控制或任何监督，他们可能不会做正确的事。
Fresh out of college, working in a place where fancy people dress up every night, Dan discovered that not so nice truth that we all know but prefer not to think about-- that we set up security cameras, we put locks on doors, we have paperwork and passwords.
大学刚毕业，在一个每天晚上人们都打扮得漂漂亮亮的地方工作，丹发现了一个我们都知道但不愿去想的不太好的事实——我们设置了安全摄像头，我们在门上装了锁，我们有文件和密码。
And those things aren't there just for criminals.
这些东西不仅仅适合犯罪分子。
They're there, at the saying goes, to keep honest people honest.
俗话说，他们的存在是为了让诚实的人保持诚实。
David Kestenbaum is part of the Planet Money team.
David Kestenbaum 是 Planet Money 团队的一员。
You can hear him on their free podcast at npr.org/money.
您可以在 npr.org/money 的免费播客上听到他的声音。
[MUSIC - "SEE NO EVIL", TELEVISION]
[音乐-“勿视邪恶”，电视]
Well, our program was produced today by Jonathan Menjivar with Alex Blumberg, Ben Calhoun, Jane Feltes, Sarah Koenig, Lisa Pollak, Robyn Semian, and Alissa Shipp.
今天我们的节目由 Jonathan Menjivar 与 Alex Blumberg、Ben Calhoun、Jane Feltes、Sarah Koenig、Lisa Pollak、Robyn Semian 和 Alissa Shipp 共同制作。
Seth Lind is our production manager.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的生产经理。
Emily Condon's our office manager.
艾米丽·康登是我们的办公室经理。
Jen Berman's filling in as our West Coast producer.
珍·伯曼 (Jen Berman) 担任我们的西海岸制片人。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
[致谢]《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
WBEZ management oversight for our show by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatea, who explains his boyhood dream to someday work at a radio station this way.
我们的老板 Torey Malatea 先生对我们的节目进行 WBEZ 管理监督，他解释了他儿时的梦想：有一天以这种方式在广播电台工作。
At school and at the university, we'd been taught that this was a magical factory, where people in white robes sat and pushed buttons.
在学校和大学里，我们被告知这是一个神奇的工厂，穿着白袍的人们坐在里面按下按钮。
And indeed, that's what it's like.
事实上，事情就是这样的。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。