423: The Invention of Money - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #423 | January 7, 2011 423: The Invention of Money Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 423 集 | 2011 年 1 月 7 日 423：货币的发明 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而生，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
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Prologue Ira Glass It's This American Life from WBEZ Chicago distributed by Public Radio international.
序言 Ira Glass 《这就是美国生活》，来自芝加哥 WBEZ，由国际公共广播电台发行。
And today's show begins with a question that somehow independently popped up in the heads of five different people all around the same time.
今天的节目以一个问题开始，这个问题几乎同时独立地出现在五个不同人的脑海中。
The people were Caitlin Kenney, Dave Kestenbaum, Alex Blumberg, Jacob Goldstein, and Adam Davidson.
这些人是凯特琳·肯尼、戴夫·凯斯滕鲍姆、亚历克斯·布隆伯格、雅各布·戈德斯坦和亚当·戴维森。
All of them cover economics for our show and for NPR news as part of the Planet Money project.
作为 Planet Money 项目的一部分，所有这些内容都涵盖了我们节目和 NPR 新闻的经济学内容。
It was in November of 2008.
那是 2008 年 11 月。
Male Speaker 1 Yeah, it was in December of 2008.
男发言人1 是的，那是在2008年12月。
It was in the heart of the financial crisis.
当时正处于金融危机的中心。
Lehman brothers went bust.
雷曼兄弟破产了。
Dave Kestenbaum You were hearing on the news every day, all these like crazy numbers.
戴夫·凯斯滕鲍姆（Dave Kestenbaum）你每天都会在新闻中听到，所有这些都像是疯狂的数字。
X trillion dollars lost when the housing bubble popped.
房地产泡沫破裂时损失了 X 万亿美元。
A trillion dollars disappeared from the stock market this week.
本周，一万亿美元从股市消失。
My family members, my wife, my friends, people were just asking me, where did that money go?
我的家人，我的妻子，我的朋友，人们都在问我，这些钱去了哪里？
Who got it?
谁得到了它？
You know, was there a black hole it went into?
你知道，它进入过一个黑洞吗？
Was their a big fire somewhere, which burned up a lot of dollar bills.
他们是不是某个地方发生了大火，烧毁了很多美元钞票。
Where did the money go?
钱去哪儿了？
I spent a long time thinking about that.
我花了很长时间思考这个问题。
All these reporters but Adam were pretty new to reporting on money and finance at the time.
当时，除了亚当之外，所有这些记者对于报道货币和金融都相当陌生。
And that last reporter you heard, Kestenbaum, went online and bought some play money so we could run little scenarios, pretending that person A took out a loan from person B to buy a house from person C to try to understand where all the money went when all the housing prices collapsed.
你听到的最后一位记者，Kestenbaum，在网上买了一些游戏币，这样我们就可以运行一些小场景，假装甲从乙那里借了一笔贷款，从丙那里买了房子，试图了解当所有房价暴跌时，所有的钱都去了哪里。
Jacob meanwhile, went to dinner with an aunt of his.
与此同时，雅各布和他的姨妈一起去吃晚饭。
My aunt is an MBA and was a very successful businesswoman and made a lot of money.
我的阿姨是一名工商管理硕士，也是一位非常成功的女商人，赚了很多钱。
And I actually asked her because this idea that trillions of dollars could disappear from the stock market was confusing to me.
我实际上问了她，因为数万亿美元可能从股市消失的想法让我感到困惑。
And so I said where did all that money go?
所以我说这些钱都去哪儿了？
And she said, money is fiction.
她说，金钱是虚构的。
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
Jacob Goldstein Well, I guess it was the fact-- like it would have been one thing if a yoga teacher or something said that to me.
雅各布·戈德斯坦（Jacob Goldstein）好吧，我想这是事实——就像如果一位瑜伽老师或什么人对我这么说那是一回事。
But this is like my businesswoman aunt.
但这就像我的女商人阿姨。
Money is fiction.
金钱是虚构的。
So the answer to the question, where did the money go when the housing market collapsed turns out to be that the money never existed in the first place.
因此，“当房地产市场崩溃时，钱去了哪里”这个问题的答案是，这些钱从一开始就不存在。
All those houses used to be worth a certain amount and now they were worth a lower amount.
所有这些房子过去都有一定的价值，现在价值更低了。
Simply because that's what everyone now agreed.
很简单，因为现在每个人都同意这一点。
No money changed hands, no many vanished.
没有钱易手，也没有多少钱消失。
Same with retirement funds and stock portfolios.
退休基金和股票投资组合也是如此。
Alex says that this is when he realized that no where was safe.
亚历克斯说，此时他意识到没有地方是安全的。
That there were inflation even sitting in the bank.
即使存在银行里也存在通货膨胀。
All his money value could just slowly vaporize.
他所有的金钱价值都可能慢慢蒸发。
Money is not solid.
金钱并不稳固。
Its value could disappear.
它的价值可能会消失。
And all these reporters says that after that they would be working on what seemed like perfectly ordinary stories asking straightforward questions and they would bump up against this weird, fictional quality that money has.
所有这些记者都表示，在那之后，他们将撰写看似完全普通的故事，提出直截了当的问题，他们会遇到金钱所具有的这种奇怪的、虚构的品质。
For example, Kestenbaum says he was doing a story and he came upon this.
例如，凯斯滕鲍姆说他正在写一个故事，然后发现了这个。
One question is how much money is out there in dollars?
一个问题是美元有多少？
You would think we track that among all things, right?
你会认为我们在所有事情中都追踪这一点，对吗？
And yet, it's a really complicated question to answer.
然而，这是一个非常复杂的问题。
Why is that so complicated?
为什么这么复杂？
Dave Kestenbaum You could imagine trying to answer it by asking everybody like how much money do they have.
Dave Kestenbaum 你可以想象通过询问每个人他们有多少钱来回答这个问题。
So you open your wallet, there's cash in there.
你打开钱包，里面有现金。
And then you'd also probably add your checking account and your savings account.
然后您还可能添加您的支票帐户和储蓄帐户。
But the money in your checking account and your savings account, the bank is a bank.
但是你的支票账户和储蓄账户里的钱，银行就是银行。
What it does is it takes that money in-- your money-- and then it loans it out t some guy who wants to open a shoe shining store down the street.
它的作用是把钱存入——你的钱——然后把它借给某个想在街上开擦鞋店的人。
So he's holding your cash.
所以他拿着你的现金。
Oh right.
哦，对了。
So the question is, how do you count that money without double counting it?
那么问题是，如何在不重复计算的情况下数出这笔钱呢？
Are you counting me having it or are you counting him having it?
你算我有还是他有？
How do you handle that?
你怎么处理这个问题？
And it gets really complicated because think of that guy who's opening that store who borrowed the money.
事情变得非常复杂，因为想想那个借钱开商店的人。
He's going to pay someone to make a sign for him.
他要花钱请人为他做一个标志。
That person's going to deposit some of that money in the bank.
那人将把一部分钱存入银行。
The bank's going to then loan that out to somebody else.
然后银行会将其贷给其他人。
In fact, if you look in the textbooks, there's a little footnote saying, sorry, we had to do a little math here.
事实上，如果你看一下教科书，就会发现有一个小脚注说，抱歉，我们必须在这里做一些数学计算。
And they tell you how to sum an infinite series.
他们告诉你如何对无穷级数求和。
Jacob says that he just figured our money works this way because we're a complicated, industrial society with banks and stock markets and financial instruments of all kinds.
雅各布说，他只是认为我们的钱是这样运作的，因为我们是一个复杂的工业社会，拥有银行、股票市场和各种金融工具。
And then he read something that made him realize that no, no, no. The fictional quality of money is inherent in the very idea of money.
然后他读到了一些东西，让他意识到不，不，不。金钱的虚构性质是金钱概念所固有的。
In any system of currency, no matter how simple, this aha moment came to him when he was reading this book from 1910 about an island called Yap in the South Pacific.
在任何货币体系中，无论多么简单，当他读到这本 1910 年出版的关于南太平洋一个名叫雅浦岛的书时，他顿时恍然大悟。
At the time on this island, for currency, this pre-industrial people used something completely impractical and counter-intuitive, these massive stone sculptures in the shape of coins.
当时在这个岛上，对于货币，这些前工业化的人们使用了一些完全不切实际和反直觉的东西，这些巨大的硬币形状的石雕。
And I mean massive.
我的意思是巨大的。
They're huge.
它们很大。
The biggest ones are taller than a man.
最大的比人还高。
You know, they weigh more than a car.
你知道，它们比一辆车还重。
And they use them for big things, right?
他们用它们来做大事，对吗？
They wouldn't use them for little everyday purchases.
他们不会用它们来进行日常小额购买。
You'd use it for a dowry or like this anthropologist told me if somebody from your village got killed in another village and you wanted to get his body back, like a warrior, you might use one of these stones to pay the other village to get your warrior's body back.
你可以用它作为嫁妆，或者就像这位人类学家告诉我的那样，如果你村里的某个人在另一个村庄被杀，你想拿回他的尸体，就像一个战士一样，你可以用其中一颗石头支付另一个村庄的费用，以取回你战士的尸体。
So there's this obvious problem.
所以就有了这个明显的问题。
There's no machinery.
没有机械。
These things weigh thousands of pounds.
这些东西重达数千磅。
They have essentially an innovation.
他们本质上有一个创新。
It's really a financial innovation, which is you don't have to actually have the stone to own the stone.
这确实是一种金融创新，也就是说你不必真正拥有石头才能拥有石头。
The stone, like you know, it's sitting on a path or something and everybody just knows that I own it one day.
就像你知道的那样，这块石头坐落在一条小路上或其他什么地方，每个人都知道有一天我拥有它。
And then you, you Ira, you kill the warrior from my village and I'm like OK.
然后你，你艾拉，你杀了我村里的战士，我就同意了。
I want to pay you with this stone and you give me back my warrior.
我想用这块石头付给你，然后你把我的战士还给我。
I get the warrior back, the stone doesn't have to move.
我把战士带回来，石头就不用动了。
It just sits there on that path, but now everybody knows that's Ira's stone.
它就在那条路上，但现在每个人都知道那是艾拉的石头。
I don't own it any more.
我不再拥有它了。
But Jacob says it gets even more interesting.
但雅各布说这变得更加有趣。
To understand this next point you have to know first that the limestone that they use to make these giant sculpture coins, it wasn't actually found on Yap.
要理解下一点，您必须首先知道他们用来制作这些巨型雕塑硬币的石灰石实际上并不是在雅浦岛发现的。
They had to go to another island 250 miles away to make them.
他们必须前往 250 英里外的另一个岛屿进行制作。
And these guys are going out in these little bamboo boats to some other island where they're carving these giant limestone disks.
这些人正乘坐这些小竹船前往其他一些岛屿，在那里他们正在雕刻这些巨大的石灰石圆盘。
At one point, a crew had gone and cut one of these giant stones on this island and they were bringing it back across the sea.
有一次，一群工作人员在这个岛上切割了其中一块巨石，然后他们将其带回大海。
And just before they got back to Yap, there was some kind of storm, and so they had to cut the store loss or the stone went overboard or something.
就在他们回到雅浦岛之前，发生了某种风暴，所以他们必须减少商店的损失，否则石头会落入海中或发生其他事情。
In any case, the stone ended up on the bottom of the sea.
无论如何，这块石头最终还是沉入了海底。
The crew themselves survived.
船员们自己幸存下来。
They made it back to the island and they told everybody what had happened.
他们回到岛上并告诉所有人发生了什么事。
And the people of Yap said, that's fine.
雅浦岛的人们说，那很好。
That's no problem.
那没问题。
We believe you and this stone money, this giant stone on the bottom of the sea, it exists.
我们相信你和这块石头钱，这块海底的巨石，它存在。
It's still good money.
这钱还是好赚的。
Somebody owns that stone, even though it's sitting on the bottom of the ocean.
有人拥有那块石头，即使它位于海底。
What?
什么？
Jacob Goldstein But it makes sense, right?
雅各布·戈德斯坦但这有道理，对吧？
One reaction is like, oh my God, these people are crazy.
一种反应是，天哪，这些人疯了。
But it's like a logical extension of what they're already doing.
但这就像他们已经在做的事情的逻辑延伸。
In fact, Jacob says it's not logically different from what we do.
事实上，雅各布说这在逻辑上与我们所做的并没有什么不同。
For money after all, long ago, we used to use gold.
毕竟，为了钱，很久以前，我们曾经使用黄金。
And if you wanted to buy something you'd have to carry around these heavy, shiny pieces of metal.
如果你想买东西，你就必须随身携带这些沉重、闪亮的金属件。
And then we decided, no, let's just leave the gold in a bank.
然后我们决定，不，我们把黄金留在银行吧。
Instead of the gold what we're going to carry around are these pieces of paper.
我们要随身携带的不是黄金，而是这些纸片。
And the paper on them says, yes, there's gold.
它们上面的纸上写着，是的，里面有金子。
You can take this paper money to a bank.
您可以将这些纸币带到银行。
You can swap it for gold.
你可以把它换成黄金。
Maybe you've seen old dollars that say on them promise to pay the bearer so many dollars in gold.
也许您见过旧美元，上面写着承诺向持票人支付这么多美元的黄金。
You could swap it.
你可以换一下。
Then we decided, it was the year 1933.
然后我们决定，那是 1933 年。
We decided you can't trade in dollar bills from gold anymore in this country.
我们决定在这个国家不能再用黄金换成美元进行交易。
Dollar bills are just going to represent the idea of money.
美元钞票只是代表金钱的概念。
That's it.
就是这样。
Not gold.
不是金子。
They're just money.
他们只是钱。
And when I talked about this with Jacob he said, it gets even more abstract.
当我与雅各布谈论这个问题时，他说，它变得更加抽象。
Because now, if you think of most of the money that you have, or most of the money that I have, it's never currency.
因为现在，如果你想想你拥有的大部分钱，或者我拥有的大部分钱，它从来都不是货币。
I get paid.
我得到报酬。
That is just a direct deposit from NPR, from my employer, to my checking account.
这只是 NPR、我的雇主直接存入我的支票账户的资金。
It's not like they give me a bunch of hundred dollar bills every week.
他们不像每周都会给我一堆百元大钞。
And then, I pay my bills online.
然后，我在线支付账单。
So currency even now is like old-fashioned.
所以即使现在货币也像老式的一样。
You don't have to touch money.
你不必接触金钱。
You don't have to see it.
你不必看到它。
It's just information.
这只是信息。
Until this conversation it never occurred to me that money doesn't change hands when we pay our bills online or anything.
直到这次谈话之前，我从未想到当我们在线支付账单或其他任何方式时，金钱不会易手。
Like I don't know why I never even stopped to think, right, at no point does the bank go and deliver like $100 to the phone company on my behalf.
就像我不知道为什么我从来没有停下来想一想，对吧，银行在任何时候都不会代表我向电话公司支付 100 美元。
It really is just numbers going back and forth in the computer.
它实际上只是在计算机中来回移动的数字。
Yeah.
是的。
Nothing happens in the physical world.
物理世界中什么也没有发生。
I mean I guess, except electrical pulses I guess it would be flying back and forth between computers.
我的意思是我猜，除了电脉冲之外，我猜它会在计算机之间来回飞行。
The money doesn't really exist.
钱其实并不存在。
Not only is there no gold.
不但没有金子。
There aren't even bills for most of the money that exists.
现有的大部分资金甚至都没有账单。
Most of the money that exists is just the idea.
现有的大部分资金都只是想法。
It's just the bank saying, yes, there is this much money in your account.
只是银行说，是的，你的账户里有这么多钱。
Well today on our program, the most stoner question we have ever posed on our show, what is money?
今天在我们的节目中，我们在节目中提出了有史以来最奇怪的问题，金钱是什么？
That's right.
这是正确的。
What is money?
什么是钱？
That's the question we're asking.
这就是我们要问的问题。
I know how it sounds.
我知道听起来怎么样。
The fact that the money that we use every day is about as real as those stones at the bottom of the sea, that makes our lives easier in all kinds of ways, but it is also incredibly dangerous that that is the nature of money as you'll hear today in two action-filled acts.
事实上，我们每天使用的钱就像海底的石头一样真实，这让我们的生活在各个方面都变得更轻松，但同样非常危险的是，这就是金钱的本质，正如你今天在两场充满行动的表演中听到的那样。
When you understand the money is created out of nothing, you understand all kinds of things.
当你明白金钱是无中生有时，你就会明白各种各样的事情。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Well let's begin with a trip to a country where the fiction that is money.
好吧，让我们从去一个以金钱为虚构的国家开始吧。
That fiction, that set of shared beliefs that is a fiction completely fell apart.
那个虚构的故事，那套共同的信念完全是虚构的。
Everyone stopped believing in their currency and of course, that had disastrous results.
每个人都不再相信自己的货币，当然，这带来了灾难性的后果。
The same country in a truly incredible piece of policy making, you almost never hear of any government anywhere solving a problem so thoroughly and so well.
同一个国家在制定一项真正令人难以置信的政策时，你几乎从未听说过任何地方的政府能够如此彻底和如此出色地解决问题。
The government tricked a hundred fifty million people into believing again, that their money was worth something when there was absolutely no evidence to support that claim.
政府欺骗了 1.5 亿人，让他们再次相信他们的钱是有价值的，但实际上没有任何证据支持这一说法。
And it worked.
它奏效了。
Here's Chana Joffe-Walt.
请听查娜·乔夫-沃尔特的报道。
When you know the story I'm about to tell you, it really makes every single mundane commercial experience in Brazil seem like a complete miracle.
当您了解我要告诉您的故事时，您会发现巴西的每一个平凡的商业体验都看起来像是一个完整的奇迹。
Car commercials, miracle.
汽车广告，奇迹。
The mall is a miracle.
购物中心是一个奇迹。
The guy in a bright red t-shirt in the mall who shoves paperwork into my hands and offers me a credit card, miracle.
商场里那个穿着鲜红色 T 恤的家伙把文件塞到我手里，还给了我一张信用卡，真是奇迹。
The credit card is a brand new concept in Brazil.
信用卡在巴西是一个全新的概念。
And actually, everything that happens in this mall is new.
事实上，这个商场里发生的一切都是新的。
The way everyone spends money in the mall is new.
每个人在商场里花钱的方式都是新的。
You can walk away with new shoes or a new backpack today and pay for it later.
您今天可以带着新鞋或新背包离开，稍后再付款。
[SPEAKING PORTUGUESE] Translator So a soccer ball in two installments.
[说葡萄牙语] 翻译 所以一个足球分两期。
[SPEAKING PORTUGUESE] Translator Any shoes, the average is six installments.
[SPEAKING PORTUGUESE] 译者任何鞋子，平均是六期。
[SPEAKING PORTUGUESE] Translator So a backpack, six installments.
[葡萄牙语] 译者 所以一个背包，六期。
[SPEAKING PORTUGUESE] Translator All products.
[葡萄牙语] 翻译 所有产品。
As I said that-- everything-- I was holding up a pair of sunglasses off of his display.
当我说这一切时，我从他的显示器上拿起一副太阳镜。
"Yes," he told me, "six payments.
“是的，”他告诉我，“六笔付款。
Take them home today.
今天带他们回家。
Pay in six monthly installments later."
稍后分六个月分期付款。”
In the past, you never would have had this, because Brazil had incredibly high inflation.
在过去，你永远不会遇到这种情况，因为巴西的通货膨胀率高得令人难以置信。
In 1990, inflation in Brazil was 80% a month.
1990年，巴西的通货膨胀率为每月80%。
Not a year, a month.
不是一年，是一个月。
So think about those sunglasses.
所以想想那些太阳镜。
Say they're selling for $10.
假设他们的售价为 10 美元。
One month later, with 80% inflation, the price is $18.
一个月后，通货膨胀率达到 80%，价格为 18 美元。
Six months later the sunglasses are $340.
六个月后，这副太阳镜的售价为 340 美元。
And by the end of the year, that price tag reads more than $10,000.
到今年年底，该价格标签已超过 10,000 美元。
Brazilians lived with high inflation like this for decades.
巴西人在这样的高通胀下生活了几十年。
They could not figure out how to fix it.
他们不知道如何解决它。
And they might still be living with it if it weren't for some unlikely heroes.
如果不是一些不太可能的英雄，他们可能仍然会忍受这种情况。
Actually, the most unlikely group of national heroes you can imagine.
事实上，这是你能想象到的最不可能的民族英雄群体。
Four former drinking buddies from grad school with a crazy plan, who were suddenly put in charge of the country's biggest economic crisis ever.
四位研究生院的前酒友怀揣着一个疯狂的计划，突然被任命负责应对该国有史以来最大的经济危机。
But before we meet them and hear their story, let's talk about the way it used to be.
但在我们见到他们并聆听他们的故事之前，让我们先谈谈过去的情况。
So remember, prices were going up every day.
所以请记住，价格每天都在上涨。
Think about what that actually means in the supermarket.
想想这在超市实际上意味着什么。
They had to change the prices every day.
他们必须每天更改价格。
Ketano Ferare, this flirtatious 75-year-old in Sao Paulo remembers that that was someone's job.
来自圣保罗的 75 岁轻浮的凯塔诺·费拉雷 (Ketano Ferare) 记得那是某人的工作。
To walk the aisles and change the prices.
走遍过道并改变价格。
There was a guy who changed the sticker.
有一个人改变了贴纸。
Plop, plop, plop, plop, plop.
扑通，扑通，扑通，扑通，扑通。
You passed the guy.
你超过了那个家伙。
And you buy things.
你买东西。
Wait, you would walk by the guy?
等等，你会从那家伙身边走过吗？
You would like get in front of him?
你想站在他面前吗？
You run.
你跑吧。
Chana Joffe-Walt In front of him?
查纳·乔夫-沃尔特 在他面前？
In front of the guy and buy things like that.
当着那家伙的面买东西之类的。
So that you could get to the goods before he changed the price?
这样你就可以在他改变价格之前拿到货了？
Yes, like that.
是的，就像这样。
Maria And the whole day this machine is doing this.
玛丽亚 这台机器一整天都在做这个。
This is Maria Leopoldina Biarenbeck.
我是玛丽亚·莱奥波尔迪娜·比亚伦贝克。
Someone with a very Brazilian long name, who spent a lot of time in supermarkets during this period.
一个巴西人的名字很长，这段时间他在超市呆了很多时间。
Maria was a housewife with four kids.
玛丽亚是一位有四个孩子的家庭主妇。
She wasn't the running type.
她不是那种喜欢跑步的人。
She would politely ask the sticker man to stop and wait.
她会礼貌地请贴纸人停下来等待。
And if he didn't, she had another trick.
如果他不这样做，她还有另一个伎俩。
She'd pull off his new sticker, walk up to the register, and pay the old price.
她会撕下他的新贴纸，走到收银台，支付旧价格。
But then they discovered the maquinilla the small machine.
但后来他们发现了 maquinilla 小型机器。
And that you couldn't do anything because it printed the price.
而且你什么也做不了，因为它打印了价格。
That wasn't easy to take off.
起飞并不容易。
Brazil's problem with inflation started all the way back in the 1950s.
巴西的通货膨胀问题早在 20 世纪 50 年代就开始了。
The president wanted to build a massive city in the middle of the jungle, a new capital, Brasilia.
总统希望在丛林中建造一座巨大的城市，即新首都巴西利亚。
It would cost a lot of money and the government didn't have the money to do it, so it did what governments often do when they have a dream they can't afford.
这会花费很多钱，而政府没有钱去做，所以它做了政府在有一个无力承担的梦想时经常做的事情。
They essentially, printed the money, created it.
他们本质上是印钞、创造钞票。
Now the problem with doing this of course is inflation.
现在这样做的问题当然是通货膨胀。
If there's say, a hundred dollars in the economy, you create a hundred more, now every dollar is worth half as much.
如果说，经济中有一百美元，你就再创造一百美元，那么现在每一美元的价值都减半了。
That's inflation.
这就是通货膨胀。
And in Brazil, inflation continued for the next five decades.
在巴西，通货膨胀在接下来的五年里持续存在。
Year after year, Brazilian money was worth less and less.
年复一年，巴西的钱越来越不值钱。
And this causes all sorts of problems, not just with the sticker man.
这会导致各种各样的问题，而不仅仅是贴纸人的问题。
Say you get a $1,000 bonus at work.
假设您在工作中获得 1,000 美元奖金。
You put that money in a drawer.
你把钱放在抽屉里。
A year later it's worth a fraction of what it was.
一年后，它的价值只是原来的一小部分。
The minute you get paid the clock is ticking on your money.
从你拿到工资的那一刻起，你的钱就在滴答作响。
I talked to one man who used to have nightmares about money sitting on top of his dresser.
我和一位男士交谈过，他经常梦见梳妆台上的钱。
Sitting still, just losing value.
坐以待毙，只是失去了价值。
A beer manufacturer told me he just stopped making beer because making beer just takes too long.
一位啤酒制造商告诉我，他刚刚停止生产啤酒，因为生产啤酒需要太长时间。
You'd buy all the wheat and the hops and by the time it was brewed, everything was worth so much less.
你会买下所有的小麦和啤酒花，当它被酿造时，所有东西的价值都大大降低了。
By the late '80s, inflation was the number one political issue.
到了八十年代末，通货膨胀已成为头号政治问题。
And so began the plan to fix it.
于是开始了修复它的计划。
Now it turns out one of the best people to talk to about this is Maria Leopoldina Biarenbeck, the housewife who peeled off the stickers.
现在事实证明，最适合谈论这个问题的人之一是玛丽亚·莱奥波尔迪娜·比亚伦贝克(Maria Leopoldina Biarenbeck)，她是撕下贴纸的家庭主妇。
Maria can take you through a detailed history of each president's failed plan to stop inflation.
玛丽亚可以带您了解历任总统阻止通货膨胀计划失败的详细历史。
But you have to ask Maria every question twice because the first time she always answers like this.
但每个问题你都必须问玛丽亚两次，因为第一次她总是这样回答。
I don't know because I never had to do anything.
我不知道，因为我从来不需要做任何事情。
I was just a plain housewife and mother.
我只是一个普通的家庭主妇和母亲。
And then proceeds to be the most knowledgeable person you will speak to on the topic.
然后将成为您将就该主题交谈的最有知识的人。
OK, so first up she says, President Sarney in 1985.
好的，首先她说的是 1985 年的萨尼总统。
His solution?
他的解决方案？
Simple.
简单的。
Businesses are raising prices, make that illegal.
企业提高价格，将其视为非法。
There was a price freeze.
价格冻结了。
The problem with that was no one wanted to sell anything at the frozen price.
问题是没有人愿意以冻结价格出售任何东西。
All the merchants were just waiting for the day when prices would eventually go up again.
所有的商人都在等待价格最终再次上涨的那一天。
And you know what happened.
你知道发生了什么。
People hid the merchandise.
人们隐藏了货物。
And you couldn't buy anything because they wanted the prices to grow up because the situation was a fantasy.
你买不到任何东西，因为他们希望价格上涨，因为这种情况是幻想。
It was not real.
这不是真的。
You couldn't find meat at the butcher's.
你在肉店找不到肉。
They hid the cattle.
他们把牛藏起来了。
Chana Joffe-Walt So they hid the cattle waiting for the price freeze to go away?
Chana Joffe-Walt 所以他们把牛藏了起来，等待价格冻结消失？
Yes.
是的。
You can do that here, it's a very large country.
你可以在这里做到这一点，这是一个非常大的国家。
So that failed.
所以失败了。
And then came President Collor in 1990.
1990 年科洛尔总统上任。
He had a plan to solve inflation, but there was one catch.
他有一个解决通货膨胀的计划，但有一个问题。
You're not going to be able to take your money out of the bank for a while.
您暂时无法从银行取出钱。
Now Maria is telling me this and my translator, Flavio Ferreira, who is sitting in on our conversation could no longer keep quiet.
现在玛丽亚正在告诉我这件事，而旁听我们谈话的翻译弗拉维奥·费雷拉再也无法保持沉默了。
He remembers that moment when the minister of finance made the announcement.
他还记得财政部长宣布这一消息的那一刻。
And I remember the day when she was on TV explaining that they were going to confiscate everybody's money.
我记得那天她在电视上解释说他们将没收每个人的钱。
So next day's banks would not work.
所以第二天的银行就无法工作了。
I remember the face of that woman.
我记得那个女人的脸。
She had studied in the best schools and she had been a professor at [INAUDIBLE].
她曾在最好的学校学习，并且曾在[听不清]担任教授。
And she was explaining to the nation as an economist why we need this.
她作为一名经济学家向全国解释为什么我们需要这个。
To end inflation we need the country to be together with us.
为了结束通货膨胀，我们需要国家与我们在一起。
But I remember I'm looking at her and said, God, a government cannot do that.
但我记得我看着她说，上帝啊，政府不能这么做。
I mean when a government does that, you lose people's respect.
我的意思是，当政府这样做时，你就会失去人们的尊重。
Oh, it was terrible.
哦，太可怕了。
It was terrible.
太可怕了。
So many people committed suicide.
这么多人自杀了。
When you mess with people's money, it doesn't go well.
当你乱花别人的钱时，事情就不会顺利。
The economy went off a cliff.
经济跌入悬崖。
President Collor was impeached.
科洛尔总统被弹劾。
And there was a new president and a new finance minister, and inflation kept rising.
而且有了新总统和新财政部长，通货膨胀不断上升。
The Brazilian economy was at a low point.
巴西经济正处于低谷。
It looked like there was nothing to be done to fix it.
看起来没有什么办法可以修复它。
Enter our heroes, those four economists we talked about at the beginning, who basically enter the picture now because the new finance minister knew nothing about economics.
进入我们的英雄，我们一开始谈到的那四位经济学家，他们现在基本上进入了画面，因为新财政部长对经济学一无所知。
Which is why, on March 27 of 1993, he called one of our heroes, Edmar Bacha.
这就是为什么 1993 年 3 月 27 日，他给我们的英雄之一埃德玛·巴查 (Edmar Bacha) 打电话。
I was in my office at that university here, at the Catholic university.
我在那所大学的办公室里，天主教大学。
And I got the call soon after I had finished teaching a class.
我教完一堂课后不久就接到了电话。
And he said, well, I've just been named the finance minister.
他说，好吧，我刚刚被任命为财政部长。
You know that I don't know economics.
你知道我不懂经济学。
So please come to meet me in Brazil tomorrow.
所以请明天来巴西见我。
We need you.
我们需要你。
Well, I was terrified.
嗯，我很害怕。
Basha had been waiting for three decades for this call.
岜沙等这个电话已经等了三十年了。
Ever since he ad his three friends taught graduate school together at the prestigious Catholic university in Rio.
自从他宣布他的三个朋友一起在里约热内卢著名的天主教大学教授研究生院以来。
Four friends who had been studying Brazilian inflation for a decade.
四位朋友十年来一直在研究巴西的通货膨胀。
Four buddies at the campus bar complaining to each other about how this government didn't know what it was doing and that government didn't know what it was doing.
校园酒吧里的四个哥们互相抱怨这个政府不知道自己在做什么，那个政府也不知道自己在做什么。
Four buddies who were now being asked by the government to come and fix thing their way, the plan they'd spent years on.
现在政府要求四个伙伴来按照他们的方式解决问题，这是他们花了多年时间制定的计划。
And so, of course, their first answer, no. We don't want to.
当然，他们的第一个答案是否定的。我们不想。
Here's another one of the four, Andre Lara.
这是四人中的另一位，安德烈·拉拉。
This is a process.
这是一个过程。
It's something that requires many years.
这是需要很多年的事情。
It's not something that we can do.
这不是我们能做的。
It's not magic.
这不是魔法。
It's not a trick that we do overnight.
这不是我们一朝一夕就能完成的把戏。
When I asked Lara, wasn't it exciting though?
当我问劳拉时，这不是很令人兴奋吗？
He looked confused for a moment.
他一时显得很困惑。
And then scornful.
然后就是鄙视。
People, he told me, should be interested in ideas, not feelings.
他告诉我，人们应该对想法感兴趣，而不是感受。
They thought we had a trick.
他们以为我们有诡计。
There is no trick.
没有什么窍门。
There is only long, hard, complex multi-step macroeconomic plans designed specifically for the Brazilian context.
只有专门针对巴西国情设计的长期、艰难、复杂的多步骤宏观经济计划。
Basha is the more casual of this pair.
岜沙是这对中比较随意的一个。
Yeah, he tells me, we had a trick.
是的，他告诉我，我们有一个窍门。
But I was busy and I didn't want to move to Brasilia.
但我很忙，我不想搬到巴西利亚。
The government did not give up.
政府并没有放弃。
Lara and Basha were taken to dinner with members of parliament who told them how much the country needed them.
劳拉和巴沙被带去与国会议员共进晚餐，国会议员告诉他们国家有多么需要他们。
They got calls at home, senators told them, you will have free reign.
他们在家里接到电话，参议员告诉他们，你们将拥有自由统治权。
Whatever you think is best.
无论你认为什么是最好的。
Basha was invited to meet the president.
岜沙受邀会见总统。
And then I ask an autograph for my kids and then he wrote a note, a note addressed to my two kids in saying, "Please tell your father to work fast for the benefit of the country."
然后我要求我的孩子们签名，然后他写了一张纸条，写给我的两个孩子，上面写着：“请告诉你的父亲为了国家的利益而快速工作。”
Yes.
是的。
I still have that note.
我还留着那张纸条。
Chana Joffe-Walt So there was a lot of pressure?
Chana Joffe-Walt 那么压力很大吗？
Oh yes.
哦是的。
Yes.
是的。
It's one thing to do it at your office.
在办公室做是一回事。
It is another thing to put the thing together.
把东西放在一起是另一回事。
It had never, never been put in practice anywhere this way.
它从来没有以这种方式付诸实践过。
Eventually the four signed on and presented their plan.
最终，四人签约并提出了他们的计划。
And basically what they said was, you have to hit the underlying causes of inflation.
基本上他们所说的是，你必须解决通货膨胀的根本原因。
You have to stop the printing presses, stop creating money so quickly.
你必须停止印钞机，停止这么快地造钱。
But you also have to stabilize people faith in money.
但你还必须稳定人们对金钱的信心。
And this is where their plan was different.
这就是他们的计划不同的地方。
They didn't want to just change the underlying causes of inflation.
他们不想仅仅改变通货膨胀的根本原因。
They wanted to change people themselves.
他们想自己改变人们。
People where the problem.
人家哪里出了问题。
People had to be tricked into thinking money had value, when all signs told them that was absolutely not true.
人们不得不被欺骗，认为金钱是有价值的，而所有迹象都告诉他们这绝对不是真的。
So Basha says, they wrote a plan for a new currency, one that was stable, dependable, trustworthy.
巴沙说，他们制定了一种新货币的计划，一种稳定、可靠、值得信赖的货币。
The only catch was this currency would not be real.
唯一的问题是这种货币不是真实的。
It would not be printed.
它不会被打印。
There would never be coins.
永远不会有硬币。
It was fake.
这是假的。
They called it a virtual currency.
他们称之为虚拟货币。
We called the unit of real value, URV.
我们将实际价值的单位称为URV。
Yeah, it was a virtue that didn't exist in fact.
是的，这是一种事实上不存在的美德。
People would still have cruzeiros, the local currency in their pockets.
人们的口袋里仍然有当地货币克鲁塞罗。
But when they got paid, their wages would be listed in URVs.
但当他们拿到工资时，他们的工资将被列在URV中。
Taxes were in URVs and all prices were listed in URVs.
税费以 URV 计，所有价格均以 URV 计。
And URVs were stable.
URV 稳定。
And so, for example, when you went to the store and bought some milk.
举例来说，当你去商店买了一些牛奶时。
How much does it cost?
它要多少钱？
Say well, know we have it cost X.
好吧，知道我们花了X。
Let's say one URV.
假设有一个 URV。
Well, how much is that because I cannot pay with URV.
嗯，那是多少钱，因为我无法使用 URV 付款。
Well, I have this little table here and today's value of URV in cruzeiros is seven cruzeiros per URV.
好吧，我这里有一张小桌子，今天的 URV 克鲁塞罗价值是每个 URV 七个克鲁塞罗。
So it cost one URV, seven cruzeiros.
所以花费了 1 URV，7 克鲁塞罗。
You go next week, well, it's still one URV.
你下周去吧，好吧，它仍然是一个URV。
But then you say, how many cruzeiros?
但你又说，有多少克鲁塞罗？
You look, well, 14.
你看起来，好吧，14岁。
Every night the central bank would put out a memo with the official conversion rate.
每天晚上央行都会发布一份包含官方汇率的备忘录。
And a table would get printed in the newspaper.
报纸上会印出一张表格。
The store clerk could look at the table in the newspaper and see, Monday, one URV is equal to seven cruzeiros.
店员可以查看报纸上的表格，发现星期一，1 URV 等于 7 个克鲁塞罗。
Tuesday, 12 cruzeiros.
星期二，12 克鲁塞罗。
Wednesday, 14.
星期三，14 日。
Milk or whatever it was you were buying would stay the same price.
牛奶或您购买的任何东西都将保持相同的价格。
There was no need for the sticker man.
不需要贴纸人。
And the idea was you would start thinking in URVs.
这个想法是你会开始考虑 URV。
Because just last week you got paid a thousand URVs.
因为就在上周，您收到了一千个 URV。
Milk costs one URV.
牛奶成本为 1 URV。
Next month, you'd get a thousand URVs again and milk would still be one URV.
下个月，您将再次收到一千个 URV，而牛奶仍然是一个 URV。
The exchange into cruzeiros, what you actually handed the clerk would change.
兑换成克鲁塞罗后，你实际交给店员的东西就会改变。
But the price in URVs would not.
但 URV 的价格却不会。
So that was the plan and Basha presented it to the senator from Sao Paulo.
这就是计划，巴沙将其提交给圣保罗参议员。
And then when I explained to him the plan, after a while he said, well-- with some anguish in his voice said, well Basha, if this is the only way that you tell me that it can be done, then we will follow you to the precipice.
然后，当我向他解释这个计划时，过了一会儿，他说，好吧——他的声音里有些痛苦地说，好吧，芭莎，如果这是你告诉我可以做到的唯一方法，那么我们就会跟着你到悬崖边。
And so the four economists went about explaining to the country that everyone should now talk in a virtual currency.
因此，四位经济学家开始向全国解释，现在每个人都应该用虚拟货币进行交谈。
We didn't understand it what it was.
我们不明白它是什么。
We asked, how much is that?
我们问，那多少钱？
Oh, it's so may URVs.
哦，URV 也是如此。
I used to say it was a fantasy because it was not real.
我曾经说过这是一个幻想，因为它不是真实的。
Still, people used it without being forced to.
尽管如此，人们还是在没有被迫的情况下使用了它。
One store would be selling milk for one URV and eventually, all the stores would be.
一家商店将出售一辆 URV 的牛奶，最终所有商店都会如此。
People would know, that's an appropriate price for milk.
人们会知道，这是牛奶的合适价格。
Which I can tell because I get paid a thousand URVs.
我可以这么说，因为我得到了一千个URV的报酬。
Inflation began to go down.
通货膨胀开始下降。
80% a month to 50%.
每月80%到50%。
It even got close to 40%.
甚至接近40%。
And then when we are satisfied that prices are relatively in good synchrony we declare well, from this day, the virtual currency becomes a real currency.
然后，当我们对价格相对同步性感到满意时，我们就宣布，从今天起，虚拟货币变成了真实货币。
The cruzeiro real is going to disappear and everyone is going to receive from now on its wages and pay for all the prices in the new currency, which is the real.
克鲁塞罗雷亚尔将会消失，从现在开始，每个人都将收到工资，并以新货币（即雷亚尔）支付所有价格。
Which is equal to one URV.
等于 1 URV。
And also, equals to $1.
而且，等于 1 美元。
And that is the trick.
这就是窍门。
It wasn't the only trick.
这不是唯一的伎俩。
While they put the URVs in place, the group of four also made the government balance its budget and slow down on the money creation.
在落实URV的同时，四人小组还使政府平衡预算并放慢货币创造速度。
And then, one day, July 1, 1994, the central bank deployed truckloads of new cash in this new currency, the real, to banks in the cities, to the provinces, and waited on the ready for the four economists to say go.
然后，1994 年 7 月 1 日的一天，中央银行以这种新货币雷亚尔的形式向各城市的银行和各省调配了大批新现金，等待四位经济学家发号施令。
And I remember the day that we launched and the real, I have this journalist who had become a friend of mine.
我记得我们启动的那天，真正的，我有一位记者，他已经成为我的朋友。
And then she came to me and said, Professor, do you swear that inflation's going to end tomorrow.
然后她来找我说，教授，你发誓通货膨胀明天就会结束吗？
I said, yes, I swear that's going to end tomorrow.
我说，是的，我发誓明天就结束。
Everybody was very happy.
大家都很高兴。
Chana Joffe-Walt Everyone in Brazil, collectively, as a country, tricked themselves into believing that this fake currency was real.
查纳·乔夫-沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt) 巴西的每个人，作为一个国家，集体欺骗自己，让自己相信这种假货币是真的。
More real than the actual physical bill they were holding in their hands.
比他们手里拿着的实际钞票更真实。
And that made all the difference.
这让一切变得不同。
That made it real.
这使它成为现实。
For money, it's crazy but that's all you need.
为了钱，这很疯狂，但这就是你所需要的。
People to believe in it.
人们要相信它。
Our four heroes literally turned Brazil's economy in the opposite direction with their plan.
我们的四位英雄的计划确实使巴西经济走向了相反的方向。
Brazil went from being an irrelevant, economic basket-case to one of the most important economies out there.
巴西从一个无关紧要的经济烂摊子变成了最重要的经济体之一。
The eighth largest in the world.
世界第八大。
Cardoso, the finance minister who hired our four heroes after admitting he knew nothing about economics, was elected president.
卡多佐这位财政部长在承认自己对经济学一无所知后聘用了我们的四位英雄，最终当选为总统。
Twice.
两次。
And the four economists, despite the fact that most people don't know them by name, really are seen as heroes.
尽管大多数人不知道他们的名字，但这四位经济学家确实被视为英雄。
These guys made money worth something.
这些人赚了钱，物有所值。
Almost everyone I talk to about what happened in 1994 when they got the real described it as magic.
几乎所有与我谈论过 1994 年发生的事情的人，当他们得到真实的时候，都将其描述为魔法。
Which you'd think the four would like, but Lara does not appreciate decades of research being referred to as magic.
你可能认为这四个人会喜欢，但劳拉并不喜欢将数十年的研究称为魔法。
There's nothing magical in URV.
URV 并没有什么神奇之处。
It's very technical and very-- But basically it was just we established the idea of a unit of account that gives you the sense of value, relative value.
这是非常技术性的，而且非常——但基本上，我们只是建立了一种记账单位的想法，它可以给你价值感、相对价值感。
Basha, on the other hand, doesn't mind it so much.
而岜沙却并不那么介意。
It's very funny because people today, you go around and people think that this is so natural to live in a country without inflation.
这很有趣，因为今天的人们，你到处走走，人们认为生活在一个没有通货膨胀的国家是很自然的。
It's so natural that now, when you walk into a store in Brazil, instead of a sticker man raising the prices, you can walk out of that sort with your sunglasses in hand and not finish paying for them until six months later.
这是很自然的事，现在，当你走进巴西的一家商店时，你可以拿着太阳镜走出商店，而不是贴着贴纸涨价，直到六个月后才付完钱。
In just 20 years, Brazilians have gone from an absolute faith that their currency has no value to an absolute faith that its value will never change.
在短短20年的时间里，巴西人已经从绝对相信自己的货币没有价值，转变为绝对相信其价值永远不会改变。
Chana Joffe-Walt.
查纳·乔夫-沃尔特。
Coming up, we go to a place where no journalist has been, this room inside the Federal Reserve that is like financial a black hole where the normal rules of money do not apply.
接下来，我们去了一个没有记者去过的地方，美联储内部的这个房间就像一个金融黑洞，正常的货币规则不适用。
That's in a minute.
就在一分钟之内。
Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台当我们的节目继续时。
This American Life.
这美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our show of course, we choose a theme, bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，我们的节目每周都会选择一个主题，为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's show, "The Invention of Money." We have stories today about the fictional quality of money.
今天的节目“金钱的发明”。今天我们有关于虚构的货币质量的故事。
How it gets made out of nothing, and what's great about that, and all the trouble that can get us into.
它是如何从无到有，它有什么伟大之处，以及可能给我们带来的所有麻烦。
We've arrived at Act 2 of our show.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act 2: Weekend at Bernanke's.
第二幕：伯南克家的周末。
When the United States was on a real gold standard, it was clear what money was and how much money there was.
当美国实行真正的金本位制时，什么是货币、有多少钱是很清楚的。
Each dollar corresponded to a dollar of gold that in a vault somewhere.
每美元对应于某处金库中的一美元黄金。
But when we went off the gold standard, somebody had to decide how much money there would be.
但当我们脱离金本位时，就必须有人来决定会有多少钱。
Some entity had to be entrusted with that power.
必须委托某个实体拥有这种权力。
In our country and just about every modern country today, we give that power to something called a central bank.
在我们国家以及当今几乎每个现代国家，我们都将这种权力赋予了中央银行。
Our central bank is named the Federal Reserve.
我们的中央银行被称为美联储。
You've heard that name, probably.
你可能听说过这个名字。
And like all central banks, it has one magical power.
与所有中央银行一样，它拥有一种神奇的力量。
The Federal Reserve can create money any time it wants.
美联储可以随时创造货币。
It's the one institution in America that can decide, OK, the economy would run better, interest rates would drop, whatever, if there was more money out there.
这是美国唯一一个可以决定，好吧，如果有更多的钱，经济会运行得更好，利率会下降，等等。
Or it can decide there should be less money.
或者它可以决定应该减少资金。
It controls the amount of money in our economy, including in a very literal way.
它控制着我们经济中的货币数量，包括以一种非常字面的方式。
If you have any cash in your pocket right now, pull it out, you see the name right at the top of the bills, Federal Reserve note.
美联储指出，如果你现在口袋里有现金，请将其拿出来，你会在钞票顶部看到这个名字。
They're the ones who call up the Bureau of Engraving and Printing and say, print some more of the stuff.
他们打电话给雕刻印刷局说，再印刷一些东西。
And here's where things get tricky.
这就是事情变得棘手的地方。
Though the Federal Reserve does that, and though the Federal Reserve's chairman is appointed by the president.
尽管美联储就是这样做的，尽管美联储主席是由总统任命的。
And though the Federal Reserve is subject to congressional oversight, and though the Federal Reserve's name includes the word, "federal," it is not actually part the federal government.
尽管美联储受到国会的监督，而且美联储的名称中包含“联邦”一词，但它实际上并不属于联邦政府的一部分。
It's an independent institution.
这是一个独立的机构。
And you may remember presidents like Nixon wanting the Fed to do this or that and the Fed chairman basically telling them to go take a hike.
你可能还记得像尼克松这样的总统希望美联储这样做或那样做，而美联储主席基本上告诉他们加息。
They're supposed to do what they think is best for the economy, not what's best for the president's political future.
他们应该做他们认为对经济最有利的事情，而不是对总统的政治未来最有利的事情。
With me so far?
到目前为止和我在一起吗？
Since 2008 when the current financial crisis took hold, the Fed has done all kinds of things that central banks just don't do.
自2008年当前金融危机爆发以来，美联储做了各种央行不做的事情。
Stuff the Fed has never done.
美联储从未做过的事情。
Stuff that would have been unthinkable in the past.
这在过去是不可想象的事情。
It's all happening on a scale that is bigger than anything the Fed has ever tried in its history.
这一切发生的规模比美联储历史上尝试过的任何事情都要大。
Basically, the Fed has gone to central bank crazytown.
基本上，美联储已经走向了央行的疯狂之地。
And the danger, if the Fed screws up is that the fiction that we call the US dollar loses value.
如果美联储搞砸了，危险就在于我们所谓的美元的虚拟货币会失去价值。
The people stop believing in it.
人们不再相信它。
Alex Blumberg and David Kestenbaum are to explain to us now two things, what the Fed usually does and what it's done since 2008 that seems so extreme.
Alex Blumberg 和 David Kestenbaum 现在要向我们解释两件事，美联储通常做什么以及自 2008 年以来看起来如此极端的做法。
Up until recently when the Federal Reserve did this dangerous and magical thing of creating money out of nothing, conjuring money out of the void, it happened in a kind of solemn ritual.
直到最近，当美联储做了这种危险而神奇的事情，从无到有地创造货币，从虚无中变出货币时，它都是在一种庄严的仪式中发生的。
The ritual goes like this, every six weeks in an ornate conference room inside the Federal Reserve building in Washington, DC, there's a meeting.
仪式是这样的，每六周在华盛顿特区美联储大楼内的华丽会议室举行一次会议。
The meeting is closed to the press, members of Congress, even the president isn't allowed.
会议不对新闻界、国会议员甚至总统开放。
The meeting is run by the chairman of the Fed, currently Ben Bernanke.
会议由现任美联储主席本·伯南克主持。
You've heard his name in the news a lot.
你在新闻中经常听到他的名字。
It is a meeting of the Federal Reserve's Open Market Committee.
这是美联储公开市场委员会的会议。
Even though major things, major policy issues are being decided, it's not an exciting experience.
尽管正在决定重大事情、重大政策问题，但这并不是一次令人兴奋的经历。
This is Gerald O'Driscoll, Jr. who attended a couple of these meetings back in the 1990s when he was vice president of the Dallas Regional Federal Reserve.
我是小杰拉尔德·奥德里斯科尔 (Gerald O'Driscoll, Jr.)，他在 20 世纪 90 年代担任达拉斯地区联储副总裁时参加了几次此类会议。
So at these meetings, all these Federal Reserve officials get up and make presentations about the economy.
因此，在这些会议上，所有美联储官员都会起身发表有关经济的演讲。
What are the bright spots?
有哪些亮点？
what are the weak spots?
弱点是什么？
Are things getting better, worse, staying about the same?
事情变得更好、更糟还是保持不变？
And then, they take a vote to decide the big question.
然后，他们进行投票来决定这个大问题。
Should there be more or less money in the US economy?
美国经济中的钱应该多还是少？
Now this question has huge ramifications.
现在这个问题产生了巨大的影响。
More money generally means it's easier for businesses and everyday people to get loans, which means it's easier for businesses to expand or new businesses to start up.
更多的钱通常意味着企业和普通人更容易获得贷款，这意味着企业更容易扩张或开办新企业。
Which ultimately translates into more jobs and a better economy.
这最终会转化为更多的就业机会和更好的经济。
But, more money can also mean inflation.
但是，更多的钱也可能意味着通货膨胀。
Which if it gets out of control, can really cripple the economy.
如果失控，确实会削弱经济。
Just ask the people of Brazil.
只要问问巴西人民就知道了。
So it is a balancing act, with the fate of the US economy hinging on the Fed's decision.
因此，这是一种平衡行为，美国经济的命运取决于美联储的决定。
Not that anyone there acts that way.
并不是说那里的任何人都会这样做。
Again, Gerald O'Driscoll.
又是杰拉尔德·奥德里斯科尔。
It's almost ceremonial.
这几乎是仪式性的。
There's an order in which the staff reports take place.
工作人员报告的顺序是有的。
The questioning is kind of orchestrated.
提问是有组织的。
They're only like, we're pulling the levers of the largest economy in the history of mankind.
他们只是说，我们正在拉动人类历史上最大经济体的杠杆。
Yeah.
是的。
You almost forget that that's what's happening until they start to read the policy directive, which is exactly what they're going to do.
你几乎忘记了这就是正在发生的事情，直到他们开始阅读政策指令，而这正是他们要做的。
Then you remind yourself what all this has been about.
然后你提醒自己这一切是怎么回事。
I sort of think of it like a joystick.
我觉得它就像一个操纵杆。
You move it too far in one direction, you get out of control inflation.
如果朝一个方向移动得太远，通货膨胀就会失控。
You move it too far in the other direction and then you can really sort of put the brakes on the economy.
如果你把它朝另一个方向走得太远，那么你真的可以给经济踩刹车。
Is that too simplistic a way of thinking about it or is that?
这种思考方式是否过于简单化了？
I mean it's OK to think about it that way.
我的意思是这样考虑就可以了。
I winced a little when you said that because the joystick presumes a very precise control, which is exactly what they don't have.
当你这么说时，我有点皱眉，因为操纵杆需要非常精确的控制，而这正是他们所没有的。
Right.
正确的。
Gerald O'driscoll It's more like you're moving a super tanker and you start moving the wheel and there's no effect that you can see for quite a while.
Gerald O'driscoll：这更像是你在移动一艘超级油轮，然后你开始移动方向盘，但很长一段时间你看不到任何效果。
OK, so once they've decided to move the super tanker, how exactly do they create money out of nothing?
好吧，那么一旦他们决定移动超级油轮，他们究竟如何从无到有地赚钱呢？
Well the answer, the mechanics of how this works, are so weird and bizarre that when I first learned about it, I thought wait, that's what this all comes down to?
那么答案，它的工作原理，是如此奇怪和奇怪，以至于当我第一次了解到它时，我想等等，这就是这一切的归结吗？
They can't just create a whole bunch of money and then walk out to the street corner and start handing it out to people.
他们不能创造一大笔钱，然后走到街角并开始分发给人们。
That would be awkward for one, and it also would take too long.
这对一个人来说会很尴尬，而且也需要很长时间。
They need to get large amounts of money into the economy fast.
他们需要快速将大量资金注入经济。
And so they need someone who can handle a few billion dollars in one quick transaction, which means the banking system.
因此，他们需要一个能够在一笔快速交易中处理数十亿美元的人，这意味着银行系统。
Banks.
银行。
And how do they get money into the banks hands?
他们如何将钱存入银行手中？
They buy something from them.
他们从他们那里买东西。
The most boring, safest, surest thing any bank owns, bonds issued by the US government.
任何银行拥有的最无聊、最安全、最有把握的东西，就是美国政府发行的债券。
Treasury bonds.
国债。
Big banks typically have billions of dollars in treasury bonds just sitting around on their books.
大银行的账簿上通常有数十亿美元的国债。
And to buy these bonds, the Fed doesn't show up at the door with an armored car full of cash.
为了购买这些债券，美联储不会开着装满现金的装甲车出现在门口。
Don't picture that.
别想像那样。
You need to picture a computer screen at the Fed that shows the amount of money in a bank's account.
您需要想象美联储的电脑屏幕上显示银行账户中的金额。
Richard Dzina is a Senior Vice President of the New York Fed and he says, "someone at the Fed just changes that number.
理查德·吉纳 (Richard Dzina) 是纽约联储的高级副总裁，他表示：“美联储的某个人只是改变了这个数字。
Adds a few billion, clicks a mouse--
添加几十亿，点击鼠标——
And voila, money is created.
瞧，金钱被创造了。
David Kestenbaum Basically you press a button and in their account it says we have this much more money?
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 基本上，你按下一个按钮，他们的帐户中就会显示我们还有这么多钱？
Yes.
是的。
David Kestenbaum Does that seem weird to you at all after all these years?
David Kestenbaum 这么多年过去了，这对你来说有没有觉得很奇怪？
All right, so the bank had a million dollars worth of bonds and now it has a million in cash.
好吧，银行有价值 100 万美元的债券，现在有 100 万美元的现金。
What's the big deal?
有什么大不了的？
A billion's a billion, right?
十亿就是十亿，对吧？
But banks don't like to sit on lots of cash.
但银行不喜欢持有大量现金。
They went to lend it out and earn interest on it.
他们去借钱并赚取利息。
That's what banks do.
这就是银行所做的。
So the banks start landing that money out.
于是银行开始把这些钱取出来。
And that is how this new money enters into the economy.
这就是这些新资金进入经济的方式。
So if I'm a bank, before maybe I'd loan my money out at 6%.
所以如果我是一家银行，以前我可能会以 6% 的利率借钱。
Now I got more money sitting around.
现在我有了更多的钱。
I want to move it out the door fast, so I'll loan it out at a lower rate.
我想尽快把它搬出去，所以我会以较低的利率借出它。
Maybe 4%.
也许是4%。
And this is why you're always hearing on the news the Fed lowered interest rates or raised interest rates.
这就是为什么你总是听到美联储降息或加息的消息。
They did that through this process we just described.
他们通过我们刚才描述的过程做到了这一点。
Creating money out of nothing, buying or selling treasury bonds.
白手起家，买卖国债。
OK, so that's what the Feds did for decades.
好吧，这就是美联储几十年来所做的事情。
The boring, sober, purchase or sale of boring, safe bonds.
无聊、清醒的购买或出售无聊、安全的债券。
Now to Fe Crazytown.
现在到 Fe Crazytown。
In the financial crisis.
在金融危机中。
Starting in 2007, banks and firms up and down Wall Street were looking shaky.
从 2007 年开始，华尔街上下的银行和公司都显得摇摇欲坠。
They had all these assets that were plunging in value and they needed someone to lend them money to offset their losses and stay afloat.
他们拥有的所有这些资产都在贬值，他们需要有人借钱来抵消损失并维持生计。
And it was around this time that Jim Cramer freaked out on television.
就在这个时候，吉姆·克莱默在电视上吓坏了。
Jim Cramer you may know, is the host of Mad Money on CNBC.
您可能知道吉姆·克莱默 (Jim Cramer) 是 CNBC 节目《Mad Money》的主持人。
And here is in August 2007, the very beginning of the subprime collapse talking about the Federal Reserve chairman Ben Bernanke.
这是 2007 年 8 月，次贷危机刚开始时，美联储主席本·伯南克就在谈论这件事。
Actually, talking is probably the wrong word.
事实上，“说话”这个词可能是错误的。
Bernanke is being an academic.
伯南克是一位学者。
He has no idea how bad it is out there.
他不知道外面的情况有多糟糕。
He has no idea!
他不知道！
He has no idea!
他不知道！
Cramer.
克莱默。
Jim Cramer I have talked to heads of almost every single one of these firms in the last 72 hours and he has no idea what it's like out there.
吉姆·克莱默 (Jim Cramer) 在过去 72 小时内，我几乎与这些公司中每一家的负责人进行了交谈，他不知道外面的情况如何。
None!
没有！
My people have been in this game for 25 years and they are losing their jobs, and these firms are going to go out of business.
我的员工在这个游戏中已经 25 年了，他们正在失去工作，这些公司也将倒闭。
And he's nuts!.
他疯了！
They're nuts!.
他们疯了！
They know nothing!
他们什么都不知道！
Cramer.
克莱默。
Jim Cramer This is a different kind of market and the Fed is asleep.
吉姆·克莱默（Jim Cramer）这是一个不同类型的市场，美联储正在睡觉。
So what Jim Cramer is saying in this very entertaining freak out is that the Fed should use its power to create money out of nothing in a way that we haven't talked about yet.
因此，吉姆·克莱默（Jim Cramer）在这个非常有趣的怪异事件中所说的是，美联储应该利用其权力以我们尚未讨论过的方式从无到有地创造货币。
In addition to the ceremony meetings the Fed has every six weeks about the money supply, it also has these special emergency powers that it's only supposed to use in situations where the banking system is on the verge of collapse.
除了美联储每六周举行一次关于货币供应的仪式会议外，它还拥有这些特殊的紧急权力，这些权力只应该在银行体系濒临崩溃的情况下使用。
And Cramer here is asking the Fed to use those powers to become what's called, "the lender of last resort."
克莱默在此要求美联储利用这些权力成为所谓的“最后贷款人”。
Specifically, he said this.
具体来说，他是这么说的。
Jim Cramer Listen, open the darn Fed window.
吉姆·克莱默（Jim Cramer）听着，打开该死的美联储窗口。
The darn Fed window.
该死的美联储窗口。
The Fed window is jargon for the Fed creating a bunch of money out of nothing and lending it to institutions in crisis who can't borrow money through the normal private market.
美联储窗口是美联储无中生有地创造大量资金并将其贷给陷入危机的机构的行话，这些机构无法通过正常的私人市场借钱。
Sort of like a bank window where you could walk up and get an emergency loan from a magical genie.
有点像银行窗口，你可以走过去从神奇的精灵那里获得紧急贷款。
This was a revolutionary proposal on several levels.
这在多个层面上都是一项革命性的提议。
A lot of these financial institutions that needed help were not traditional banks.
许多需要帮助的金融机构都不是传统银行。
And the Fed hadn't lent emergency money to something other than a boring, highly regulated bank for over half a century.
半个多世纪以来，美联储除了向乏味且监管严格的银行以外的机构提供紧急资金。
But seven months after Cramer's tirade, though certainly not because of it, the Fed did just what he was suggesting.
但在克莱默发表长篇大论七个月后，尽管肯定不是因为这个原因，美联储还是按照他的建议做了。
A dramatic story has broken this morning to the effect that JP Morgan and the New York Fed are combining to in essence, bail out Bear Stearns.
今天早上发生了一个戏剧性的故事，大意是摩根大通和纽约联储正在联合起来，实质上是为了救助贝尔斯登。
As the financial crisis unfolded, the Fed created over one trillion dollars.
随着金融危机的爆发，美联储创造了超过一万亿美元的资金。
Which it lent out as emergency loans to all the big names on Wall Street: Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, huge banks like City Group and Bank of America.
它以紧急贷款的形式向华尔街的所有大牌银行提供紧急贷款：高盛、摩根士丹利、城市集团和美国银行等大型银行。
The Fed lent money to private equity firms, hedge funds, and even regular companies like Verizon, GE, and Harley Davidson.
美联储向私募股权公司、对冲基金甚至威瑞森、通用电气和哈雷戴维森等普通公司提供贷款。
And it wasn't just the recipients of that cash that were new, it was also what the Fed was requiring in return, the collateral.
不仅是现金的接收者是新的，美联储所要求的回报也是新的，即抵押品。
In the past, in the rare instances that the Fed used its powers to serve as the lender of last resort, it demanded the highest quality collateral in return.
过去，在美联储利用其权力充当最后贷款人的极少数情况下，它要求最高质量的抵押品作为回报。
Assets that were safe and would hold their value.
安全且能保值的资产。
In other words, the Fed treated banks in financial trouble the same way a hard-nosed pawn broker treats people in financial trouble.
换句话说，美联储对待陷入财务困境的银行就像顽固的典当经纪人对待陷入财务困境的人一样。
It would hold onto your grandmother's antique earrings and in return, give you far less than they're worth.
它会保留你祖母的古董耳环，作为回报，你得到的东西远低于它们的价值。
And if you bring in cheap plastic earrings, the Fed wouldn't give you any money at all.
如果你带了廉价的塑料耳环，美联储根本不会给你任何钱。
But in 2008, the Fed started accepting all sorts of cheap, plastic jewelry.
但在 2008 年，美联储开始接受各种廉价的塑料珠宝。
Collateral that just months ago it never would have touched.
就在几个月前，它永远不会碰触的抵押品。
For example, at one point in the crisis, the Fed acquired $75 billion worth of toxic assets from Bear Stearns and AIG.
例如，在危机期间，美联储从贝尔斯登和 AIG 收购了价值 750 亿美元的有毒资产。
Our colleague Chana Joffe-Walt talked to Vincent Reinhart, another former Fed official now at the American Enterprise Institute about just how disturbingly unboring these assets were.
我们的同事查纳·乔夫-沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt) 与现任美国企业研究所的另一位前美联储官员文森特·莱因哈特 (Vincent Reinhart) 讨论了这些资产是多么令人不安。
There were mortgages on resort hotels.
度假酒店有抵押贷款。
It's a grab bag.
这是一个抓包。
There's a lot of Hilton properties.
希尔顿旗下有很多酒店。
The Hilton Hawaiian Village, the Hilton of Puerto Rico.
夏威夷度假村希尔顿酒店、波多黎各希尔顿酒店。
The Fed has a claim on a hotel in Jacksonville, Florida.
美联储对佛罗里达州杰克逊维尔的一家酒店拥有债权。
So there's a mall in this portfolio that I believe has gone into bankruptcy.
所以我认为这个投资组合中有一个购物中心已经破产了。
What's the name of it?
它叫什么名字？
Chana Joffe-Walt Crossroads.
查纳乔夫-沃尔特十字路口。
Crossroads?
十字路口？
Crossroads Mall in Oklahoma actually, isn't it?
实际上是俄克拉荷马州的十字路口购物中心，不是吗？
Oh, yeah, it owns it.
哦，是的，它拥有它。
REO means real estate owned.
REO 是指拥有的房地产。
So the Fed owns that mall?
那么美联储拥有那个购物中心？
So the Fed is now in the commercial shopping business?
那么美联储现在介入商业购物业务了吗？
It is a little mind-bending.
这有点令人费解。
Vincent Reinhart So actually, you should have the image of chairman Ben Bernanke flying to a speaking engagement and he could look out the window and look down and say, boy, I own a piece of that.
文森特·莱因哈特 所以实际上，你应该想象一下主席本·伯南克飞去参加演讲的情景，他可以看着窗外，低头说，孩子，我拥有其中的一部分。
I own a piece of that.
我拥有其中的一部分。
I own a piece of that.
我拥有其中的一部分。
And that's the way the Fed's balance sheet is right now.
这就是美联储目前的资产负债表的情况。
And it didn't stop there.
但事情并没有就此停止。
In late 2008, the economy was still in trouble, so the Fed launched another program.
2008年底，经济仍然陷入困境，因此美联储推出了另一项计划。
Which would become by far, the biggest single purchase they'd ever made.
这将成为迄今为止他们有史以来最大的单笔购买。
They would be creating more money than ever before.
他们将创造比以往更多的钱。
But what were they going to buy with that money to get the money out into the economy?
但他们要用这些钱买什么才能将钱投入到经济中呢？
Well, what is there out there that adds up to hundreds of billions of dollars?
那么，到底有什么东西加起来能达到数千亿美元呢？
Home mortgages.
房屋抵押贷款。
The Fed would buy home mortgages.
美联储将购买住房抵押贷款。
Not the sub prime ones that got into trouble.
不是陷入麻烦的次贷贷款。
This was not a plan to rid the banks of bad assets.
这并不是一项清除银行不良资产的计划。
They would be buying safe, high quality mortgages.
他们将购买安全、高质量的抵押贷款。
But they would be buying a lot of them.
但他们会购买很多。
In the form of mortgage backed securities.
以抵押贷款支持证券的形式。
The hope was this would inject a lot of new money into the economy and prop us the housing market.
人们希望这将为经济注入大量新资金并支撑我们的房地产市场。
But how many to buy, that was the question.
但买多少，这是个问题。
Vincent Reinhart, the former Fed official, says that the Fed had no idea how many mortgages it would need to purchase to do all this.
前美联储官员文森特·莱因哈特 (Vincent Reinhart) 表示，美联储不知道需要购买多少抵押贷款才能完成这一切。
How much money should it create?
它应该创造多少钱？
They were working in the dark.
他们在黑暗中工作。
Economic theory doesn't tell you how many securities you have to buy to have a predictable effect on interest rates or activity.
经济理论不会告诉您必须购买多少证券才能对利率或活动产生可预测的影响。
So they went and they picked a round number.
于是他们就去挑选了一个整数。
A big, round number.
一个很大的整数。
Do you imagine them actually sitting around saying, I don't know, a hundred billion, two hundred, a trillion?
你能想象他们真的坐在那里说，我不知道，一千亿、两百、一万亿吗？
700?
700？
How about 5?
5个怎么样？
I can imagine them sitting around in that big room around a big table arguing in terms of probably quarters of trillions.
我可以想象他们坐在那个大房间里，围着一张大桌子，争论可能有四分之一万亿的问题。
How about 250?
250怎么样？
No, how about 500?
不，500 怎么样？
In the end, the number they settled on was massive, one and a quarter trillion dollars.
最终，他们敲定的数字是巨大的，一又四分之一万亿美元。
Just a reminder, a trillion dollars is to a million dollars what a million dollars is to $1.
提醒一下，一万亿美元等于一百万美元，就像一百万美元等于一美元一样。
For some reason that's hard for me to explain.
出于某种原因，我很难解释。
I wanted to see the room where this happened, where the money gets made.
我想看看发生这件事的房间，以及赚钱的地方。
It seemed like a long shot, the Fed is historically very media shy.
这看起来可能性不大，美联储历来对媒体非常害羞。
It doesn't grant on the record interviews, much less tours.
它不接受记录采访，更不用说旅游了。
But this time the Fed said OK.
但这一次美联储说好。
And so one morning, Chana Joffe-Walt and I found ourselves at the southern tip of Manhattan, outside the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.
有一天早上，查纳·乔夫-沃尔特和我发现自己身处曼哈顿南端，纽约联邦储备银行外。
It's a big, imposing building.
这是一栋宏伟的建筑。
The iron work, the marble in the lobby all say, I'm a big, imposing building.
大厅里的铁艺、大理石都在说明，我是一栋宏伟的建筑。
I am the central bank of the biggest economy in the history of the world.
我是世界历史上最大经济体的中央银行。
They've still got a bunch of gold in the basement.
他们的地下室里还有一堆金子。
And by bunch, I mean possibly the largest collection of gold anywhere.
我所说的一堆，可能是世界上最大的黄金收藏。
And then, our guide, Nate Wuerffel, took us up to the room.
然后，我们的导游 Nate Wuerffel 带我们去了房间。
So this is the mortgage backed security purchase program team room.
这是抵押贷款支持证券购买计划团队的房间。
It's a small-ish room.
这是一个很小的房间。
It's not as big as you might think when you consider the size of the overall purchase program.
当您考虑整个采购计划的规模时，它并不像您想象的那么大。
Whatever you imagine the room looks like where you can create one and a quarter trillion dollars, this is not it.
无论你想象这个可以创造一又四分之一万亿美元的房间是什么样子，这都不是它。
It is not grand.
这并不盛大。
It is not ornate.
它并不华丽。
It is not ceremonial.
这不是仪式性的。
It has four grey cubicles, it has computer screens, and there's no other way to say this: it's a mess.
它有四个灰色的小隔间，有电脑屏幕，没有其他的方式可以表达这一点：一团糟。
There are papers and notes scattered around.
周围散落着文件和笔记。
There is a yoga ball someone has been sitting on.
有人坐在一个瑜伽球上。
And there is a basketball net, possibly Nerf brand.
还有一个篮球网，可能是 Nerf 品牌的。
This is where the magic happens.
这就是奇迹发生的地方。
Julie Remache and her colleagues spent weeks and weeks and weeks in this room, buying and buying and buying.
朱莉·雷马什和她的同事们在这个房间里呆了几周、几周、几周，买啊买啊买。
This program was big.
这个计划很大。
It represents 20% of the outstanding agency mortgage backed securities in the market.
它占市场上已发行的机构抵押贷款支持证券的 20%。
So it's big.
所以它很大。
You bought a fifth of what was out there?
你买了外面商品的五分之一？
That's right.
这是正确的。
David Kestenbaum Can I ask a kind of weird question, but I know it's one everyone's going to ask.
David Kestenbaum：我可以问一个奇怪的问题吗，但我知道每个人都会问这个问题。
Where does the money come from?
钱从哪里来？
It's created.
它被创建了。
So that's the nature of central banking.
这就是中央银行的本质。
So central banks, when we actually purchase a security, we pay for it with cash that is basically created by the central bank.
因此，中央银行，当我们实际购买证券时，我们用基本上由中央银行创造的现金来支付。
That's the nature of central banking around the world.
这就是世界各地中央银行的本质。
The sheer amount of new money that the Fed created was unprecedented.
美联储创造的新货币数量之多是前所未有的。
From the time we went off the gold standard of 1933 until 2008, the Fed had created a net total of $800 billion.
从 1933 年取消金本位到 2008 年，美联储创造了 8000 亿美元的净资产。
In the months after the financial crisis, that number nearly tripled to almost $2.4 trillion.
在金融危机发生后的几个月里，这一数字几乎增加了两倍，达到近 2.4 万亿美元。
Julie and her colleagues were spending more newly created money in just 15 months than the Fed had created in its entire history up until 2008.
朱莉和她的同事们在短短 15 个月内花费的新创造的资金就比美联储 2008 年之前的整个历史上创造的资金还要多。
Hey, what are you doing here, we're doing a radio story.
嘿，你在这里做什么，我们正在做广播故事。
Well I know.
好吧，我知道。
Actually, I've been listening and it's fascinating of course.
事实上，我一直在听，这当然很有趣。
And excellent story as always.
和一如既往的精彩故事。
But I have some questions.
但我有一些问题。
For starters, you're saying that the Fed created over a trillion dollars to bailout the economy.
首先，你说美联储创造了超过一万亿美元来救助经济。
Does that money get added to the deficit?
这笔钱会增加赤字吗？
The federal deficit, that's when the federal government spends more money than it collects in taxes.
联邦赤字是指联邦政府支出超过税收的情况。
So it has to borrow to cover the difference.
因此它必须借钱来弥补差额。
That's with the deficit is, that borrowing.
赤字就是借款。
And the Fed is, as you said in your intro, a totally separate institution.
正如您在介绍中所说，美联储是一个完全独立的机构。
It's not part of the federal government.
它不属于联邦政府的一部分。
So it hasn't nothing to do with this.
所以和这个没有什么关系。
OK, but when the Fed loses money on some mall that it now owns, does that eventually in some sneaky back door way, come out of my taxes?
好吧，但是当美联储在它现在拥有的某个购物中心上亏损时，这最终会以某种偷偷摸摸的后门方式从我的税收中扣除吗？
No. Because first of all, it's not part of the government.
不。因为首先，它不属于政府。
Second of all, even if it were, every year the Fed makes a profit.
其次，即使是这样，美联储每年都会获利。
The Fed never loses money.
美联储永远不会亏钱。
It can create money out of thin air from nowhere.
它可以凭空创造金钱。
It uses that to buy government bonds, things that pay interest.
它用它来购买政府债券，即支付利息的东西。
So it gets interest every year.
所以每年都会产生利息。
And every year it makes a huge profit, like in 2009 at the height of the crisis, it made $47 billion.
而且每年它都会赚取巨额利润，比如2009年危机最严重的时候，它赚了470亿美元。
And that profit they always turn over to the federal government.
他们总是将这些利润上交给联邦政府。
So it actually reduces the deficit.
所以它实际上减少了赤字。
And so all of this money that they've created since 2008, totaling it up if I understand right, it's over $1.6 trillion.
因此，自 2008 年以来他们创造的所有资金，如果我没理解错的话，总计超过 1.6 万亿美元。
Does this have anything to do with the TARP program to buy up toxic assets?
这与不良资产救助计划购买有毒资产有什么关系吗？
Does it have anything to do with Obama's stimulus package.
这与奥巴马的经济刺激计划有什么关系吗？
No, federal government.
不，联邦政府。
Ira Glass But this $1.6 trillion is bigger than both of those combined.
Ira Glass 但这 1.6 万亿美元比两者的总和还多。
We have these huge fights that drag on for weeks over the stimulus package and over these other things, and then the Fed does something that dwarfs these in size.
我们在经济刺激计划和其他问题上发生了持续数周的激烈争斗，然后美联储做了一些让这些争斗规模相形见绌的事情。
It's twice as big as either of those programs.
它是这两个程序的两倍大。
And there's no discussion.
而且没有讨论。
The Congress doesn't debate it.
国会不对此进行辩论。
The president doesn't approve it.
总统不批准。
There's no public input.
没有公众意见。
Some eggheads in a room just kind of wave a wand and then it just happens?
房间里的一些书呆子只是挥动魔杖，然后事情就发生了？
OK, is that a good thing?
好吧，这是一件好事吗？
Alex Blumberg It depends who you talk to.
Alex Blumberg 这取决于你和谁说话。
Most economists would say, thank God the Fed did this.
大多数经济学家会说，感谢上帝，美联储做到了这一点。
Thank God the Fed used its super power to create money out of thin air and lent that money to Harley Davidson and Goldman Sachs, and you and me to buy houses, and Bear Stearns in exchange for that mall in Oklahoma.
感谢上帝，美联储利用其超级权力凭空创造了货币，并将这些钱借给了哈雷戴维森和高盛，还有你和我用来买房子，还有贝尔斯登，以换取俄克拉荷马州的那个购物中心。
Doing all that crazy crap, that kept us out of soup lines.
做了那些疯狂的事情，让我们远离了汤线。
And the Chairman of the Federal Reserve, Ben Bernanke, says that because of the Fed's actions, quote, "The world was spared a cataclysm that could have rivaled or surpassed the Great Depression." And Bernanke is actually one of the leading scholars on the economics of the Great Depression.
美联储主席本·伯南克表示，由于美联储的行动，“世界才幸免于一场可能与大萧条相媲美或超越的灾难。”伯南克实际上是研究大萧条经济学的顶尖学者之一。
And he says, in fact, that the Great Depression happened in large part because the Fed back then wasn't crazy enough.
他说，事实上，大萧条的发生很大程度上是因为当时的美联储还不够疯狂。
Or as he put it, they were quote, "Insufficiently willing to challenge the orthodoxies of their day."
或者正如他所说，他们“不愿意挑战他们那个时代的正统观念。”
Alan Blinder is in this camp.
艾伦·布林德 (Alan Blinder) 就属于这个阵营。
He's an economist at Princeton and the former Vice Chairman of the Fed.
他是普林斯顿大学的经济学家，也是美联储前副主席。
And he says he's glad Bernanke was willing to challenge the orthodoxy of our day.
他说他很高兴伯南克愿意挑战我们这个时代的正统观念。
To take the Fed to Crazytown.
将美联储带入疯狂镇。
But that is a very good thing that that happened.
但这是一件非常好的事情。
These very, very unusual things that the Fed did are things that are either never going to be repeated again in your lifetime, or if they are, it'll probably be a long time from now.
美联储所做的这些非常非常不寻常的事情要么在你的一生中永远不会再重复，要么即使重复，也可能会在很长一段时间内发生。
Once we get back to normal, this is not going to be part of the Fed's everyday way of doing business.
一旦我们恢复正常，这将不会成为美联储日常运作方式的一部分。
It will go back to the boring thing of creating or destroying money by buying or selling treasury bills.
它将回到通过买卖国库券来创造或销毁货币的无聊事情。
There's a bunch of people who disagree with Alan Blinder on this though, and we're going to be hearing a lot from them in the coming months.
不过，有很多人在这一点上不同意艾伦·布林德的观点，在接下来的几个月里，我们将听到他们的很多意见。
Maybe you've followed some of the news about how three quarters of the House of Representatives-- democrats and republicans alike-- voted for more scrutiny of the Fed.
也许您已经关注过一些有关众议院四分之三的议员（民主党人和共和党人都一样）如何投票支持对美联储进行更多审查的新闻。
That happened because of this guy.
事情的发生都是因为这个人。
Gentleman, Texas Mr. Paul for three minutes.
德克萨斯州绅士保罗先生，请讲三分钟。
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
谢谢主席先生。
I want to thank you for calling this hearing.
我要感谢您召开这次听证会。
Ron Paul, the libertarian-leaning republican congressmen from Texas is the go-to guy in Congress if you're looking for someone to criticize the Federal Reserve.
如果你想找一个批评美联储的人，来自德克萨斯州的倾向自由主义的共和党国会议员罗恩·保罗（Ron Paul）就是国会中的最佳人选。
The question we in the Congress have to ask is, why is it that the Congress is so eager to give up their prerogatives and their responsibilities?
我们国会要问的问题是，为什么国会如此急于放弃他们的特权和责任？
Whether it's giving the executive branch the authority to go to war without the Congress saying much, or whether it's turning over the monetary system to somebody that can operate essentially in secrecy and deal not with a few hundred billion dollars like $800 billion here and there, but trillions of dollars when it adds up.
无论是授予行政部门在国会不做太多发言的情况下发动战争的权力，还是将货币体系移交给一个基本上可以秘密运作的人，并且处理的不是几千亿美元，比如零星的8000亿美元，而是加起来数万亿美元。
For decades, Paul has been on the campaign to abolish the Federal Reserve.
几十年来，保罗一直致力于废除美联储的运动。
And it was lonely campaign.
这是一场孤独的竞选。
But with the republicans taking over the House of Representatives, Ron Paul, author of a book called End the Fed is now the head of the committee, which oversees the Fed.
但随着共和党接管众议院，《终结美联储》一书的作者罗恩·保罗现在担任监督美联储的委员会主席。
And the main beef that he and lots of people have with the Fed is that it's unclear the Fed really knows what it's doing.
他和许多人对美联储的主要不满是，目前尚不清楚美联储是否真的知道自己在做什么。
US economy they say is too big and too complex to be managed by a group of PhDs who meet every six weeks, no matter how smart they are.
他们说，美国经济太大、太复杂，无法由一群每六周开会的博士来管理，无论他们多么聪明。
By trying to manage something that can't be managed, the Fed does more damage to the economy than good.
通过试图管理一些无法管理的事情，美联储对经济的损害大于好处。
One of the leading critics of the Fed, an economist named George Selgin says the Fed is like a fireman who gets credit for putting out fires that he helped start.
美联储的主要批评者之一、经济学家乔治·塞尔金表示，美联储就像一名消防员，因扑灭他帮助引发的火灾而获得荣誉。
And Selgin has a point.
塞尔金说得有道理。
Take our current recession.
以我们当前的经济衰退为例。
Even if you grant that the Fed helped get us out of it, most economists and not just Fed critics say that it was Fed actions earlier in the decade, holding interest rates too low for too long, which helped create the housing bubble, which got us into this mess in the first place.
即使你承认美联储帮助我们摆脱了困境，大多数经济学家（而不仅仅是美联储批评者）都表示，正是美联储在本世纪初的行动，将利率长期维持在过低水平，助长了房地产泡沫的产生，而这首先让我们陷入了这场混乱。
So today, the Fed is in uncharted territory.
因此，今天，美联储正处于未知领域。
Instead of making little movements to the super tanker's steering wheel, the Fed has spun it, leaving us all with two questions.
美联储并没有对超级油轮的方向盘做出小动作，而是转动了它，给我们留下了两个问题。
What direction us the tanker going to go as a result?
结果，油轮将朝什么方向行驶？
And do we trust the person at the helm?
我们信任掌舵者吗？
The Fed has created a huge, unprecedented amount of money, thrown it into the economy.
美联储创造了前所未有的巨额资金，并将其投入经济。
Now they have to figure out how to get it out before it causes inflation.
现在他们必须想办法在它导致通货膨胀之前将其取出。
The Fed has gone a little crazy.
美联储有点疯狂了。
Once you go crazy, how do you get back to being boring?
一旦你变得疯狂，如何才能恢复无聊呢？
And trustworthy?
并且值得信赖？
Remember the value of our money depends on that trust.
请记住，我们资金的价值取决于这种信任。
Again, Vincent Reinhart talking to our colleague Chana Joffe-Walt.
Vincent Reinhart 再次与我们的同事 Chana Joffe-Walt 交谈。
Because you trust the Fed and because you know everybody else trusts the Fed, it is valued in markets because other people value it.
因为你信任美联储，并且因为你知道其他人也信任美联储，所以它在市场上受到重视，因为其他人也重视它。
So really, that's the biggest thing that the Fed has going for it.
事实上，这是美联储最重要的努力。
It's not the gold in the basement, it's not the marble floors.
这不是地下室的黄金，也不是大理石地板。
The most important thing to them is just that everyone trusts them.
对他们来说最重要的是每个人都信任他们。
The magic of central banking is it works on trust.
中央银行的神奇之处在于它以信任为基础。
Once that trust is gone, the value of money goes away too.
一旦信任消失，金钱的价值也就消失了。
It becomes just another stone on the bottom of the ocean.
它只是海底的另一块石头。
The Fed knows this of course.
美联储当然知道这一点。
That the weirder they act, the more they throw the whole enterprise into question.
他们的行为越怪异，就越让整个企业受到质疑。
And this explains one of the biggest mysteries of all about visiting the Fed, why everyone is so, so boring.
这解释了访问美联储的最大谜团之一，为什么每个人都如此、如此无聊。
Their public pronouncements are famous for bureaucratic inscrutability.
他们的公开声明以官僚主义的高深莫测而闻名。
And I mean, here they are creating trillions of dollars out of thin air, doing things that in the history of central banking have never been done before.
我的意思是，他们正在凭空创造数万亿美元，做着中央银行历史上从未做过的事情。
And in all our dealings with them, they are-- and you'll have to trust us on this, we'll spare you the tape-- studiously going out of their way to be as unexciting as possible.
在我们与他们打交道的过程中，他们——你必须相信我们，我们不会给你录像带——刻意地让自己尽可能地平淡无奇。
Case in point, remember the mortgaged back security program?
举个例子，还记得抵押贷款担保计划吗？
One and a quarter trillion dollars.
一又四分之一万亿美元。
That number was essentially pulled out of thin air.
这个数字基本上是凭空捏造的。
And yet, once the Fed officials in charge of purchasing those securities were given the number--
然而，一旦负责购买这些证券的美联储官员得到了这个数字——
$0.61 short.
短 0.61 美元。
$0.61.
0.61 美元。
Chana Joffe-Walt What?
查纳·乔夫-沃尔特 什么？
Seriously.
严重地。
Chana Joffe-Walt No way.
查纳·乔夫-沃尔特 不可能。
$1.25 trillion, you got within how much?
1.25万亿美元，你拿到了多少？
We got very, very close to the actual $1.25 trillion.
我们非常非常接近实际的 1.25 万亿美元。
I do think we were within pennies of the final charge.
我确实认为我们离最终收费只差几分钱。
We didn't want to go over $1.25 trillion because $1.25 trillion was our mandate.
我们不想超过 1.25 万亿美元，因为 1.25 万亿美元是我们的任务。
We don't want to ever go beyond our mandate.
我们不想超越我们的职责。
And so if we erred, we wanted to err on the shy side.
因此，如果我们犯了错，我们会选择害羞的一面。
Whether you like it or not, this is our system.
不管你喜欢与否，这就是我们的系统。
Empower a secret society of PhD with the ability to create trillions of dollars out of nothing and hope we can trust them to get it right and stay as boring as humanly possible.
赋予一个博士秘密社团从无到有创造数万亿美元的能力，并希望我们能够相信他们能做对并尽可能保持无聊。
Alex Blumberg and David Kestenbaum.
亚历克斯·布隆伯格和大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
They're both part of our Planet Money team, along with Chana Joffe-Walt and all the other reporters you've heard this hour.
他们和 Chana Joffe-Walt 以及您这一小时听到的所有其他记者都是我们 Planet Money 团队的成员。
Their free podcast and their blog explain the stuff that all of us have never understood more entertainingly than seems fair.
他们的免费播客和博客以有趣且公平的方式解释了我们所有人从未理解过的内容。
You can find all that at NPR .org/money.
您可以在 NPR .org/money 找到所有内容。
[MUSIC - "WE DO (THE STONECUTTERS' SONG)" BY THE SIMPSONS]
[音乐 - 辛普森一家的“WE DO（昂船之歌）”]
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
[致谢]《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
WBEZ management oversight for our show by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia, who can get, I have to say, pretty irate when I don't dress warmly enough for the snow storms we've been getting lately.
我们的老板 Torey Malatia 先生对我们的演出进行 WBEZ 管理监督，我不得不说，当我穿得不够暖和以应对最近的暴风雪时，他会非常生气。
I overheard him in the hallway yesterday when I didn't bring a scarf.
昨天我没带围巾，在走廊里无意中听到了他的声音。
He has no idea how bad it is out there.
他不知道外面的情况有多糟糕。
He has no idea!
他不知道！
He has no idea!
他不知道！
None!
没有任何！
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。