421: Last Man Standing - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #421 | December 9, 2011 421: Last Man Standing Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 421 集 | 2011 年 12 月 9 日 421：最后一个站立者 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Act One: Act One Ira Glass OK.
第一幕： 第一幕 Ira Glass 好的。
Imagine for second what it would be like to have the entire country have one opinion about something and you were the only person who disagreed.
其次想象一下，如果整个国家对某件事有一个看法，而你是唯一不同意的人，那会是什么样子。
Out of the entire country.
走出整个国家。
This pretty much happened to the woman I'm about to introduce you to.
这几乎发生在我要向您介绍的那位女士身上。
She was a juror in the criminal trial of Rod Blagojevich.
她是罗德·布拉戈耶维奇刑事审判的陪审员。
You may remember Blagojevich, Governor of Illinois.
您可能还记得伊利诺伊州州长布拉戈耶维奇。
When Barack Obama became president, Blagojevich was caught on tape talking on the phone about how he might use Obama's senate seat for his own personal profit.
当巴拉克·奥巴马(Barack Obama)就任总统时，布拉戈耶维奇(Blagojevich)被拍到在电话中谈论他可能如何利用奥巴马的参议员席位谋取个人利益。
I've got thing, and it's [BLEEP] golden.
我有东西，它是[BLEEP]金色的。
And I'm just not giving it up for [BLEEP] nothing.
我只是不会为了[BLEEP]而放弃它。
When the tapes became public, Blagojevich did the kind of media blitz that did not seem to win many people over.
当这些录音带公开后，布拉戈耶维奇进行了媒体闪电战，但似乎并没有赢得很多人的支持。
He squirmed on talk shows, he appeared as a contestant on The Apprentice.
他在脱口秀节目中表现得局促不安，在《学徒》节目中担任参赛者。
Here he is about to get fired by Donald Trump.
他即将被唐纳德·特朗普解雇。
Your Harry Potter facts were not accurate.
你的哈利波特事实不准确。
Who did the research?
谁进行了研究？
There was not a specific direction to do the research on Harry Potter, but the inability to learn the product-- and it was an issue in the--
对哈利·波特的研究没有具体的方向，但无法学习产品——这是一个问题——
Was what their inability or your inability?
是他们无能还是你无能？
I suppose I should have directed everybody else to learn the product.
我想我应该指导其他人学习该产品。
And so most of us who saw him on TV decided, "that guy is guilty." And then the case went to trial.
因此，我们大多数在电视上看到他的人都认为，“那个人有罪。”然后案件进入审判阶段。
Seven weeks.
七个星期。
Jury deliberated for 14 days after that.
此后陪审团审议了14天。
Six men, six women.
六男六女。
24 counts against the governor.
24 项针对州长的罪名。
The jury could only agree on one count-- lying to the FBI.
陪审团只能就一项罪名达成一致——向联邦调查局撒谎。
They convicted him on that one.
他们因此对他定罪。
It was split, with a handful of not guilty votes in various configurations, on the 23 other counts.
对于其他 23 项罪名，投票结果存在分歧，少数人在不同的配置中投了无罪票。
And on the charge that everybody was the most interested in, selling the senate seat, that was the one charge where the vote was 11 to 1.
对于每个人最感兴趣的指控，即出售参议院席位，这是一项投票结果为 11 比 1 的指控。
11 to 1.
11比1。
The holdout?
坚持不懈的人？
A 67 year old grandmother, JoAnn Chiakulas, who says that yes, the jury did know that the people of America wanted this guy convicted.
67 岁的祖母乔安·恰库拉斯 (JoAnn Chiakulas) 说，是的，陪审团确实知道美国人民希望这个人被定罪。
Well, I think that that was a big part of it.
嗯，我认为这是其中很重要的一部分。
I think that there was a tremendous amount of pressure on the jurors to convict, and I do think a lot of it had to do with people didn't like him.
我认为陪审员在定罪方面承受着巨大的压力，而且我确实认为这很大程度上与人们不喜欢他有关。
He was an annoyance, he was on TV.
他很烦人，他上电视了。
And so I think it was like people wanted to make him go away.
所以我认为人们想让他离开。
I mean, I certainly had that feeling.
我的意思是，我确实有这种感觉。
And I think that those of us who had some doubts felt a great deal of pressure.
我想我们这些有疑虑的人都感受到了很大的压力。
It was probably one of the most difficult things I've experienced in life.
这可能是我一生中经历过的最困难的事情之一。
I couldn't sleep at night.
我晚上无法入睡。
I had headaches, I had stomachaches.
我头痛，胃痛。
Today on our radio show, we have three stories of people who end up as the lone holdout, the last man standing, in various situations.
今天，在我们的广播节目中，我们讲述了三个故事，讲述的是人们在各种情况下最终成为孤独的坚持者、最后一个站着的人。
And if these three stories are any indication, it is always pretty dreadful.
如果这三个故事有任何暗示的话，那总是相当可怕的。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.
这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
In JoAnn's case, she says that she's been on a couple of juries before, and nothing like this happened.
在乔安的案件中，她说她以前曾担任过几个陪审团成员，但没有发生过这样的事情。
She went into the case with no particular fondness for Blagojevich and no desire to draw attention to herself.
她对布拉戈耶维奇并没有特别的好感，也不想引起别人的注意。
In fact, it was kind of the opposite on that score.
事实上，在这一点上情况恰恰相反。
In the aftermath of the trial, hounded by the press for weeks, she did one interview.
审判结束后，在媒体的围追堵截下，她接受了一次采访。
I was her second.
我是她的第二个。
She says she simply felt that the prosecution failed to make its case.
她说她只是觉得检方未能说明事实。
When she looked at the entirety of the secret tape recordings of Blagojevich, he said so many scattered different things about what he would do with that senate seat-- maybe he'd give it to Oprah, maybe he'd take it himself, maybe he'd leverage it into something else-- it just didn't seem to rise to the level of a criminal conspiracy, which was the charge against him.
当她查看布拉戈耶维奇的全部秘密录音时，他说了很多关于他将如何处理参议院席位的分散的不同事情——也许他会把它交给奥普拉，也许他自己拿走，也许他会把它用于其他事情——这似乎并没有上升到犯罪阴谋的程度，而这正是对他的指控。
There were enough other things in the transcripts that could make one think that this guy was, like, a little nuts and just talking.
笔录中还有足够多的其他内容，可以让人认为这个人有点疯狂，只是在说话。
Just talking off the top of his head.
只是在他的头顶上说话。
Do you remember when you got your first hint that you were seeing the case differently than some of the other people on the jury?
您还记得当您第一次得到暗示您对案件的看法与陪审团中其他一些人不同时吗？
Probably almost as soon as we were beginning our deliberations.
大概就在我们开始审议的时候。
I think when we came back into the room, as people started to talk, there were some people who were very firm in their belief that he was guilty, and there were some other people who were not so certain of that.
我想当我们回到房间时，当人们开始交谈时，有些人非常坚定地相信他有罪，而另一些人则不太确定这一点。
I think what happened as we went along is that the people who felt he was guilty did not look at anything to the contrary.
我认为在我们进行过程中发生的事情是，那些认为他有罪的人并没有采取相反的看法。
I got a sense that there was no sense that there might be reasonable doubt or there could be reasonable doubt.
我有一种感觉，没有任何感觉可能存在合理怀疑或可能存在合理怀疑。
So whenever anyone in the room raised an issue that might have questioned the guilty verdict, those that felt that he was guilty were very antagonistic, very hostile, very critical, very demeaning.
因此，每当房间里有人提出可能质疑有罪判决的问题时，那些认为他有罪的人就会非常对抗、非常敌对、非常批评、非常贬低。
Can I ask you, does some particular example come to mind of some time when you or somebody else raised one of these points and the reaction you got from the side that thought that he was guilty?
我能问你，当你或其他人提出其中一个观点时，你是否会想到一些特定的例子，以及你从认为他有罪的一方得到的反应？
Well, I think that some of us felt that some of the material was open to interpretation as to what the governor meant when he said certain things.
嗯，我认为我们中的一些人认为某些材料可以解释州长所说的某些事情的含义。
And it was often the women who had more reasonable doubt then the men.
女性往往比男性有更合理的怀疑。
Most of the men on the jury felt that the defendant was guilty.
陪审团中的大多数人都认为被告有罪。
We were criticized.
我们受到批评。
And it was so difficult in the room sometimes that one juror cried several times because she felt that her point of view was not being listened to.
有时房间里的气氛非常困难，一位陪审员哭了好几次，因为她觉得自己的观点没有被听取。
We were made to feel that we were not smart enough, we weren't looking at the evidence correctly, we were misinterpreting the facts.
我们感到自己不够聪明，我们没有正确地看待证据，我们曲解了事实。
You're saying that the men were saying things that were demeaning.
你是说那些人说了一些侮辱性的话。
What kinds of things did they say?
他们说了些什么？
Well, I can't recall specifically, but it was a dismissive attitude.
嗯，具体记不清了，但那是一种不屑一顾的态度。
"Oh, you're not looking at the facts." "We have to convict him, because the prosecution will have to retry the case if we don't." Or, we'll be embarrassed if we don't find him guilty."
“呵呵，你没有看事实。” “我们必须对他定罪，因为如果我们不定罪，检方将不得不重审此案。”或者，如果我们不判他有罪，我们会感到尴尬。”
Hey JoAnn, are there any other moments for you that stand out when you were deliberating?
嘿，乔安，在您深思熟虑时，还有其他让您印象深刻的时刻吗？
One gentleman who sat somewhere else decided that he had to sit across from me so that he could look into my eyes.
一位坐在其他地方的绅士决定他必须坐在我对面，这样他才能看着我的眼睛。
And I felt it was very much an act of intimidation.
我觉得这很大程度上是一种恐吓行为。
I think that one day in particular towards the end-- I think we had been there for 12, 13 days at that point-- and I think that was the day the gentleman sat across for me, and another man said he wanted to tell the judge that one of the jurors was not deliberating in good faith.
我认为特别是在接近尾声的那一天——我想我们当时已经在那里待了12、13天——我认为那天那位绅士坐在我对面，另一位男子说他想告诉法官其中一位陪审员没有善意地商议。
I really felt that I was going to lose it that day because of the pressure.
那天我真的觉得我会因为压力而失去它。
What happened after the verdicts were announced?
判决公布后发生了什么？
What happened to you then?
那你怎么了？
Well, we were cautioned by the judge to not give any statement and to take a few days to think about how we wanted to approach it.
好吧，法官警告我们不要发表任何声明，并花几天时间考虑我们要如何处理它。
And we all agreed that we were not going to talk about who voted how, and that we were all going to go home and not give a statement.
我们都同意，我们不会谈论谁投票、如何投票的问题，而且我们都会回家，不发表声明。
So we all left thinking that that was going to be the case.
所以我们都认为情况会是这样。
But I could not go home, because I received a phone call after I got off the train that there were swarms of reporters in front of my house.
但我无法回家，因为我一下车就接到电话，说我家门前挤满了记者。
And so I went straight to my daughter's.
于是我直接去了我女儿家。
And at that point, the phone started ringing nonstop and went on for days, if not weeks.
就在那时，电话开始不停地响，并且持续了几天，甚至几周。
We turned on the TV, and we saw some of the jurors talking immediately.
我们打开电视，看到一些陪审员立即说话。
They were pointing to the fact that there was one juror who was the holdout, and the press figured out that it was me.
他们指出了这样一个事实：有一名陪审员坚持抵制，而媒体发现那就是我。
There was a helicopter flying over my daughter's house, which is where I was saying.
有一架直升机飞过我女儿的房子，这就是我所说的地方。
One gentleman on TV, who was a reporter, said that he had listened to the evidence and he definitely thought that Blagojevich was guilty.
电视上的一位先生是一名记者，他说他听过证据，他肯定认为布拉戈耶维奇有罪。
And the only way that he could explain the fact that I voted not guilty was because I was crazy.
他能解释我投无罪票这一事实的唯一方法是因为我疯了。
So it was absolutely overwhelming.
所以这绝对是压倒性的。
I don't think it stopped for at least a month.
我认为至少一个月内不会停止。
And I think that it-- I don't think, I know that it really made me question jury service in general in terms of, if you go in and you do your duty as a citizen, you're vilified if you do not give the verdict that people want and expect.
我认为，我不认为，我知道这确实让我对陪审团服务产生了总体质疑，如果你进去并履行作为公民的职责，如果你不给出人们想要和期望的裁决，你就会受到诽谤。
If a person who serves on a jury knows that they are going to be vilified, harassed after the fact, maybe that'll have an effect on how they act in the jury room.
如果陪审团成员知道事后他们会受到诽谤、骚扰，也许这会影响他们在陪审团中的行为。
And that's kind of chilling to me.
这让我有点不寒而栗。
Let's say we're talking about a death penalty case.
假设我们正在谈论一个死刑案件。
And people did call me and tell me that they know of people-- and one person in particular served on a case where it was a death penalty case-- they went into the jury room thinking that they had reasonable doubt, but based on the pressure that they felt in the jury room they voted guilty.
人们确实打电话给我，告诉我他们认识一些人——特别是一个人，曾参与过一起死刑案件——他们走进陪审团，认为自己有合理的怀疑，但基于他们在陪审团中感受到的压力，他们投票有罪。
And have regretted it ever since.
并从此后悔不已。
JoAnn Chiakulas.
乔安·恰库拉斯。
[MUSIC - "DO YOUR DUTY" BY CANDI STATON]
[音乐 - CANDI STATON 的《尽你的职责》]
Act Two, Last Man Stand-Up.
第二幕，最后一个人站起来。
Most people do not choose to end up as a last man standing.
大多数人不会选择成为最后一个站着的人。
It just kind of happens to them.
这只是发生在他们身上。
Sarah Koenig has a story about that somebody like that, somebody who was simply following his dream.
莎拉·科尼格（Sarah Koenig）有一个关于这样的人的故事，一个只是追随自己梦想的人。
Duke Fightmaster was making good money, but he hated his job.
杜克拳师赚了很多钱，但他讨厌自己的工作。
More than hated it-- he loathed it.
他不仅讨厌它，还厌恶它。
Felt like he was dying inside.
感觉自己快要死了。
He was a mortgage broker.
他是一名抵押贷款经纪人。
He was married with two sons-- a toddler and a baby-- living in Orange County, south of LA.
他已婚，有两个儿子（一个幼儿和一个婴儿），住在洛杉矶南部的奥兰治县。
Then the mortgage crisis happened, his company collapsed.
然后抵押贷款危机发生了，他的公司倒闭了。
So he got another job.
所以他找到了另一份工作。
Working in a cubicle doing, like, phone sales for people in credit card debt.
在一个小隔间里工作，比如为信用卡债务人做电话销售。
This really depressing office-- dark with, like, eight cubicles in it.
这间办公室真的很压抑——黑暗，里面有八个小隔间。
And you're just on the phone all day calling people that are deciding whether to file for bankruptcy.
而你整天都在打电话给那些正在决定是否申请破产的人。
And I was just thinking, "This is so depressing." And I had this idea that if I just follow my passion or find something that I'm passionate about, something that uses my creativity, and if I just am able to find that and then throw myself into it, I'll be successful.
我只是想，“这太令人沮丧了。”我有这样的想法，如果我只是追随我的热情或找到我热衷的东西，一些利用我的创造力的东西，如果我能够找到它然后全身心投入其中，我就会成功。
His two initial ideas, in Duke's own opinion, were stupid.
在杜克看来，他最初的两个想法是愚蠢的。
He would start a boy band, or else he would make Orange County, which has a lot of churches, into a huge Christian rock scene, like Seattle was for grunge.
他会组建一个男孩乐队，或者他会让拥有很多教堂的奥兰治县成为一个巨大的基督教摇滚场景，就像西雅图的垃圾摇滚一样。
Actually, these ideas aren't quite as stupid as they might sound if you know that Duke had once had a semi-successful rock band, which toured college towns all over California.
事实上，如果你知道杜克大学曾经有一支半成功的摇滚乐队，在加州各地的大学城巡回演出，那么这些想法并不像听起来那么愚蠢。
So he started in on both these projects but soon realized he was interested neither in boy bands, nor Christians.
因此，他开始了这两个项目，但很快意识到他对男孩乐队和基督徒都不感兴趣。
It was 2007.
那是2007年。
And then right around that time I was watching TV and I saw that Jay Leno was going to step down and Conan O'Brien was going to replace Jay Leno, and so they needed someone to replace Conan O'Brien.
然后就在那个时候，我正在看电视，我看到杰伊·莱诺（Jay Leno）即将辞职，而柯南·奥布莱恩（Conan O'Brien）将取代杰伊·莱诺（Jay Leno），所以他们需要有人来取代柯南·奥布莱恩（Conan O'Brien）。
And then the light just clicked on in my head-- "Why don't I just do a talk show?" It just felt like it clicked.
然后我脑子里灵光一闪——“我为什么不直接做脱口秀呢？”感觉就像点击了一样。
I said, "I'll start a talk show.
我说：“我要开始一个脱口秀节目。
I'll just do it in my bedroom."
我就在我的卧室里做。”
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen.
晚上好，女士们先生们。
Recorded somewhere in the US Southland, it's the Duke Fightmaster Show.
这是在美国南部某地录制的《杜克拳击大师秀》。
Tonight on Duke's show, special audience member, Robert, the comedy stylings of Robert, and special guest, Robert.
今晚在杜克大学的节目中，特别观众罗伯特，罗伯特的喜剧风格，还有特别嘉宾罗伯特。
Duke Fightmaster is not a man of half measures, and he believed in the aphorisms of success, that if he wanted something badly enough, he would have it.
杜克格斗大师并不是一个半途而废的人，他相信成功的格言，如果他非常想要某样东西，他就会得到它。
He was going to replace Conan O'Brien.
他将取代柯南·奥布莱恩。
Not by doing all the normal things like getting a production job at a local talk show, learning the business, working his way up.
不是通过做所有正常的事情，比如在当地脱口秀节目中找到一份制作工作，学习业务，努力向上。
Instead, he would make himself into a talk show sensation from his own bedroom.
相反，他会让自己在自己的卧室里成为脱口秀明星。
And so I had my little desk and I arranged it, and I arranged the couch for the guests to sit.
所以我有了我的小桌子，我安排了它，我还安排了沙发供客人坐。
And I had these little curtains that went out to a deck, and I just stood in front of them.
我有这些小窗帘，延伸到甲板上，我就站在它们前面。
And I had a video camera, so I had my friend hold the video camera.
我有一台摄像机，所以我让我的朋友拿着摄像机。
And we just started to-- we just did a show.
我们刚刚开始——我们刚刚做了一场表演。
It's good to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
I feel alive right now.
我现在感觉还活着。
I'm finally doing it.
我终于做到了。
This is my own talk show, I'm stoked, I'm going all the way.
这是我自己的脱口秀，我很激动，我要一路走下去。
That's Duke's friend Tanya's French bulldog yapping in the background.
那是杜克的朋友塔尼娅的法国斗牛犬在背景中吠叫。
Duke is standing in front of a white curtain, actually his bedroom drapes.
杜克站在白色的窗帘前，实际上是他卧室的窗帘。
He's a little chubby, he's got wavy brown hair.
他有点胖，有一头棕色的卷发。
He's wearing a black sweater and jeans.
他穿着黑色毛衣和牛仔裤。
The camera is jerking around like crazy, and when it swings over to the audience, you see a few people in chairs.
镜头疯狂地晃动，当它转向观众时，你会看到几个人坐在椅子上。
Someone else is sitting on the bed, which is covered in satiny pillows.
床上坐着另一个人，床上铺着光滑的枕头。
Everyone looks happy and a little confused.
每个人看上去都很开心，又有些困惑。
I'm in a relationship, been in a relationship for 10 years.
我正在恋爱，已经恋爱10年了。
And my secret to a long lasting relationship is, don't leave.
我维持长久关系的秘诀是，不要离开。
I would do a little monologue, then I would talk to my wife, who was my sidekick.
我会做一些独白，然后我会和我的妻子交谈，她是我的助手。
And then my best friend was my second sidekick.
然后我最好的朋友是我的第二个伙伴。
He was like an Andy Kaufman and he'd do something weird and crazy.
他就像安迪·考夫曼（Andy Kaufman），他会做一些奇怪而疯狂的事情。
Then I'd interview a guest and then we'd have a little music act, and we'd do it all in like seven minutes.
然后我会采访一位嘉宾，然后我们会进行一些音乐表演，我们会在大约七分钟内完成这一切。
Now it's time for our first guest, Robert.
现在轮到我们的第一位客人罗伯特了。
[APPLAUSE] Duke On Stage Robert, how are you doing this evening?
[掌声]杜克在舞台上罗伯特，你今晚过得怎么样？
Good, good.
好，好。
Do you guys have any water or anything?
你们有水或者什么东西吗？
You can have my water.
你可以喝我的水。
Duke Fightmaster And I remember I put it out on YouTube, and I remember I kept checking how many hits it was.
Duke Fightmaster 我记得我把它放在了 YouTube 上，我记得我一直在检查它的点击量。
And by the next episode it was like, I told everyone it was 72 hits, but then I pretty much figured out that most of those were me just clicking on it and just checking it again what the hits were.
到了下一集，我告诉大家这是 72 次点击，但后来我几乎发现其中大部分都是我点击它并再次检查点击次数是多少。
So every time you clicked again, were you like, wow, another person has looked since I last looked.
所以每次你再次点击时，你是否会觉得，哇，自从我上次查看以来，另一个人已经看过了。
The Duke Fightmaster Show got longer over time, to about 40 minutes, and developed regular characters.
杜克大学格斗大师秀随着时间的推移变得越来越长，达到大约 40 分钟，并发展出了固定的角色。
Besides Duke's wife Leslie and his best friend Ryan, he did one hilarious bit about declaring war on vegetables.
除了杜克的妻子莱斯利和他最好的朋友瑞安之外，他还做了一件搞笑的事情，向蔬菜宣战。
There was a beautiful, busty blond named Tantalizing Tanya.
有一个美丽、丰满的金发女郎，名叫“诱惑坦尼娅”。
They had a house band, a number one fan, and a weekly catch phrase.
他们有一支室内乐队、一位头号粉丝和每周流行语。
There's no audience crazier than the Duke Fightmaster Show audience.
没有比杜克拳击大师秀的观众更疯狂的了。
There is no audience crazier than the Duke Fightmaster Show audience.
没有比杜克拳击大师秀观众更疯狂的观众了。
[APPLAUSE] Duke Fightmaster The first show, I had two friends in the audience that I basically just forced to be my studio audience.
[掌声]杜克格斗大师第一场演出，我有两个朋友在观众席上，我基本上只是被迫成为我的演播室观众。
And then in the second show I had maybe four people.
然后在第二场演出中我可能有四个人。
And then it doubled to eight.
然后它增加了一倍，达到八个。
And when I got to, like, episode 24, I had like 30 people packed into my bedroom.
当我看到第 24 集时，我的卧室里挤满了大约 30 个人。
It's tax week, it was tax week.
这是报税周，这是报税周。
And I actually do my taxes and take my annual blood test at the same time each year.
事实上，我每年都会在同一时间报税并进行年度血液检查。
So I have some good news-- I'm getting $2,000 back, and I have herpes.
我有一些好消息——我拿回了 2,000 美元，而且我患有疱疹。
I'm sorry that I have to tell you this way, honey.
亲爱的，我很抱歉我必须这样告诉你。
Don't be sorry.
别抱歉。
It's not like I'm going to get-- we don't really have--
我不会得到——我们真的没有——
Episode 24 was key.
第24集是关键。
That was the night a local reporter was in the audience.
那天晚上，一位当地记者在观众席上。
By that time, the show was looking more like a show.
到那时，这个节目看起来更像是一场表演。
They had real graphics, and theme music.
他们有真实的图形和主题音乐。
And a surprisingly big number of people were checking it out on YouTube every week.
每周都有大量的人在 YouTube 上观看该节目。
Fans and critics were writing in, so Duke started a segment on the show called, It's Time For the Comments.
粉丝和评论家纷纷留言，因此杜克在节目中开始了一个名为“评论时间到了”的部分。
And he's wearing a suit now.
而且他现在穿着西装。
His hair is cut, he's lost weight, he looks good.
他的头发被剪掉了，他减肥了，他看起来很好。
He made it into the newspaper.
他登上了报纸。
And then the following week we were on the front page of the paper in town.
接下来的一周，我们登上了镇上报纸的头版。
And then I got a couple other newspaper articles, and it just felt to me like something was happening.
然后我收到了其他几篇报纸文章，我感觉好像发生了什么事。
And other people actually really believed it so much that it almost seems like it could work.
其他人实际上非常相信它，以至于看起来它几乎可行。
Like, maybe, who knows?
就像，也许，谁知道呢？
Something could happen.
可能会发生一些事情。
What was the plan, though?
但计划是什么？
What was the long term plan?
长期计划是什么？
How is it going to go from a bunch of people you sort of half knew in your bedroom to actually going on TV?
从卧室里一群半熟的人到真正上电视，这会怎样？
Or was the TV part just a lark, like you knew that was never going to happen?
或者电视部分只是一个玩笑，就像你知道这永远不会发生一样？
You know, I was like, OK, we're going to be the replacement for Conan O'Brien.
你知道，我当时想，好吧，我们将成为柯南·奥布莱恩的替代者。
And I somehow thought that maybe I would pick up some type of esteem and become some internet sensation.
我不知何故认为也许我会获得某种尊重并成为网络红人。
And who knows, maybe someone would see me and go, wow, look how much this guy can do with no money.
谁知道呢，也许有人会看到我，然后说，哇，看看这个家伙没有钱能做多少事。
Why don't we just give him a chance.
我们为什么不给他一个机会呢？
And it always seemed like one more person would find out about it, and it just seemed like success was just right around the corner.
似乎总有一个人会发现这一点，成功似乎就在眼前。
Duke got a producer and an executive producer, and they started booking better guests-- actual working comedians, for instance, and popular local bands.
杜克聘请了一名制片人和一名执行制片人，他们开始预订更好的嘉宾——例如实际工作的喜剧演员和当地受欢迎的乐队。
Duke started producing commercials in hopes of getting sponsors.
杜克大学开始制作广告，希望获得赞助商。
And he met weekly with a successful business friend to map out a plan to buy space on cable TV.
他每周都会与一位成功的商业朋友会面，制定购买有线电视频道的计划。
By this time, Duke had left his job at the credit card place, so he needed the show to make some money.
这时，杜克已经辞去了信用卡公司的工作，所以他需要这个节目来赚点钱。
I said, OK, well, I can quit my job and not work for three months.
我说，好吧，我可以辞职，三个月不工作。
I have enough money to make this happen for three months.
我有足够的钱让这一切发生三个月。
But then three months came, and after that I was like, wow, we got on the paper and we got all this, and I was just like, I can just go a little bit longer, just a few more episodes.
但三个月过去了，在那之后我就想，哇，我们上了报纸，我们得到了这一切，我就想，我可以再长一点，再多几集。
And it was always just a few more episodes.
而且总是只是多几集。
After the first episode.
第一集之后。
Sarah Koenig Are you serious?
莎拉·柯尼格 你是认真的吗？
You quit after the first episode?
看完第一集就放弃了？
Yes.
是的。
After the first episode, I was at my job watching the episode over and over, checking for the views, and then I quit.
第一集结束后，我在工作中一遍又一遍地观看这一集，检查观看次数，然后我就辞职了。
And then on the second episode, I told my wife that I quit my job.
然后在第二集中，我告诉我的妻子我辞职了。
I quit my job.
我辞职了。
[APPLAUSE] Duke On Stage I'm no longer doing the debt settlement anymore.
[掌声]杜克上台 我不再做债务清算了。
You know, we have two kids and a lot of bills to pay.
你知道，我们有两个孩子，还有很多账单要付。
We'll talk about this later.
我们稍后再讨论这个问题。
OK.
好的。
Sarah Koenig He had actually told Leslie the day before, and she was fine with it-- a three month experiment seemed reasonable.
莎拉·科尼格 他实际上在前一天就告诉了莱斯利，她对此表示同意——三个月的实验似乎是合理的。
Soon after episode 24, the one that got them the press coverage, Duke had to move the show out of his bedroom.
第 24 集让他们成为媒体报道的那一集后不久，杜克不得不将节目从他的卧室移走。
The neighbors were getting mad.
邻居们都生气了。
One guy had written him a note that said, "Please stop whatever you're doing." He thought Duke was holding weight watchers meetings in the house, what with all that clapping.
一个人给他写了一张纸条，上面写着：“请停止你正在做的一切。”他以为杜克正在家里召开慧俪轻体会议，伴随着那么多的掌声。
Duke found another venue, at the local veteran's hall, but it was a lot more work than the bedroom.
杜克找到了另一个场地，在当地的退伍军人大厅，但这比卧室要麻烦得多。
Setting up and breaking down the set, plus the tech got more complicated-- more cameras.
设置和分解布景，加上技术变得更加复杂——更多的摄像机。
Duke start stressing out about it.
杜克开始对此感到紧张。
He wasn't having as much fun.
他没有那么开心。
I would be looking at the cameraman going, hey, he's not filming what he's supposed to be filming.
我会看着摄影师，嘿，他没有拍他应该拍的东西。
And then I would start yelling at the cameraman, like, Norge, don't be zooming in on the camera-- you're not supposed to zoom.
然后我会开始对摄影师大喊大叫，比如，挪威，不要放大相机——你不应该放大。
Don't zoom in, Norge.
不要放大，挪威。
OK?
可以吗？
We're going to get this later.
我们稍后会得到这个。
Goddammit, Norge.
该死的，挪威。
Hey Norge, how are you doing?
嘿挪威，你好吗？
Oh, I forgot: we don't care.
哦，我忘了：我们不在乎。
At this point there were about 20 people helping Duke put on the show every week, volunteering.
此时，大约有 20 名自愿者每周帮助杜克大学举办这个节目。
And these volunteers were constantly backing out of shows of the last minute or just not showing up.
这些志愿者经常在最后一刻退出演出，或者干脆不出现。
This is the story of my life.
这就是我一生的故事。
My right hand man's not here, flaking on me.
我的得力助手不在这里，正在向我扑来。
Everyone lets me down.
每个人都让我失望。
Ooh, I have a little baby boy, I need to watch him sleep.
哦，我有一个小男孩，我需要看着他睡觉。
DJ Flux isn't here.
DJ Flux 不在这里。
And who else has bailed on me?
还有谁保释了我？
None other than Chipper Starkenberg.
不是别人，正是奇珀·斯塔肯伯格。
He's bailed.
他已被保释。
He's bailed.
他已被保释。
Meanwhile, Duke's wife Leslie, who is a yoga teacher, was supporting the family.
与此同时，杜克的妻子莱斯利（Leslie）是一名瑜伽老师，她正在养家糊口。
On the show, she's constantly letting him know she's not so happy about that.
在节目中，她不断地让他知道她对此不太高兴。
Her delivery is so deadpan it's hard to tell whether she's joking.
她的语气如此面无表情，很难判断她是否在开玩笑。
Duke, that voice isn't in your head.
杜克，那个声音不在你的脑海里。
That's actually me asking, when are you going to get a job?
其实我问的是，你什么时候能找到工作？
Here's another one.
这是另一张。
Duke On Stage Now, who are these sponsors, you ask?
杜克登台 现在，您问这些赞助商是谁？
Yes.
是的。
Who are these sponsors?
这些赞助商是谁？
Because I'd really love to quit my third job.
因为我真的很想辞掉我的第三份工作。
And another one.
还有另一个。
Duke On Stage How are you doing this evening?
舞台上的杜克 你今晚过得怎么样？
Pretty good?
还不错吧？
I'm a little tired because I have to work so much to support the family.
我有点累，因为我必须工作很多才能养家糊口。
I think she was actually being sincere.
我觉得她其实是很真诚的。
We didn't have any direct communication unless the cameras were rolling.
除非摄像机在转动，否则我们没有任何直接的交流。
That's probably her being just direct with me.
这可能是她对我的直接态度。
Get a job.
找份工作。
I'm sick of this-- get a job.
我受够了这个——找份工作吧。
Only we had an audience laughing.
只有我们有观众笑。
And so was that the only time you were hearing it from her, though, was in front of the camera?
那么，这是你唯一一次从她那里听到这句话，是在镜头前吗？
Yeah.
是的。
That's when she was able to speak her mind.
到了这个时候，她才可以说出自己的想法。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I kind of thought that I was pressuring him to get a job, but I guess maybe I wasn't pressuring him enough, if he thinks that I wasn't.
我有点以为我是在向他施加压力，要求他找工作，但我想如果他认为我没有给他施加足够的压力的话。
But yeah, I mean, I think I was.
但是，是的，我的意思是，我想我是。
I think toward the end, I said to him, "I can't think of any other place you're going to be able to live rent free other than your mom's house, so either you get a job or you're going to have to go find somewhere else to live rent free." I thought that was pretty direct.
我想最后，我对他说：“除了你妈妈的房子之外，我想不出还有什么地方可以让你免租住，所以要么你找到一份工作，要么你就必须去找其他地方免租住。”我觉得这很直接。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Wow.
哇。
Were you sort of thinking, OK, well, any day now he's going to give this up?
你是否在想，好吧，好吧，现在他有一天会放弃这个吗？
Yeah, I was thinking more and more that he wasn't going to give it up.
是的，我越来越想他不会放弃。
Oh, really?
哦真的吗？
Leslie Yeah.
莱斯利 是的。
So more and more I was telling them that, "This is what we make, this is what our bills are, this is how much we're short every month." So his was idea was, "Well, let's get a roommate."
所以我越来越多地告诉他们，“这就是我们的生产，这就是我们的账单，这就是我们每个月的短缺量。”所以他的想法是，“好吧，我们找个室友吧。”
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, that was his solution.
我的意思是，这就是他的解决方案。
Instead of him working, he would prefer to have a roommate move in.
与其自己工作，他更愿意让室友搬进来。
Duke's talk show had inched over the line from ambitious lark to obsession.
杜克的脱口秀节目已经从野心勃勃的嬉戏慢慢过渡到痴迷。
And like all obsessions, it was greedy.
就像所有的痴迷一样，它是贪婪的。
It sucked up not only Duke's time and energy and temper, it sucked up money.
它不仅消耗了杜克的时间、精力和脾气，还消耗了金钱。
So the family's finances weren't just suffering, they were a disaster.
因此，这个家庭的经济状况不仅受到了影响，而且是一场灾难。
We had to leave our home that was kind of nice, in Laguna Beach, and we moved to where I am now in Dana Point.
我们不得不离开拉古纳海滩的好家，搬到了我现在在达纳角的地方。
It was like half the rent.
相当于房租的一半。
And you know, it got pretty scary here and there.
你知道，到处都变得非常可怕。
Just, how are we going to pay for food?
只是，我们如何支付食物费用？
How are we going to buy clothes for the kids?
我们要怎样给孩子买衣服呢？
You know, things like that.
你知道，诸如此类的事情。
My car was repossessed.
我的车被收回了。
My home went into foreclosure.
我的家被取消抵押品赎回权。
And we would have to borrow money from our families.
我们还得向家人借钱。
And we had a house in San Francisco that we ended up short-selling because we couldn't afford to pay the mortgage on it anymore with the taxes.
我们在旧金山有一所房子，我们最终卖空了它，因为我们无法再用税收支付抵押贷款。
And so we lost our house in San Francisco.
于是我们失去了在旧金山的房子。
I maxed-out all my credit cards-- I think we had, like, maybe eight-- and our family went bankrupt.
我用完了我所有的信用卡——我想我们大概有八张——然后我们的家庭就破产了。
But didn't you used to be one of those guys who counselled how to get rid of your credit card debt?
但你不是曾经是那些建议如何摆脱信用卡债务的人之一吗？
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
That's-- well, I was just becoming one of my clients, basically.
那是——嗯，基本上我只是成为我的客户之一。
So I was kind of hoping that he would look around him and see what was going on, and notice that he had two young children that needed to be taken care of.
所以我有点希望他能环顾四周，看看发生了什么事，并注意到他有两个年幼的孩子需要照顾。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I think there's kind of a fine line between having denial and have a good attitude.
我认为否认和保持良好的态度之间存在着微妙的界限。
I think sometimes I probably tried to keep a positive attitude more then I should have.
我想有时我可能试图保持积极的态度，而不是我应该做的。
Duke was under so much pressure you could almost see it ricocheting through him on screen.
杜克承受着巨大的压力，你几乎可以在屏幕上看到压力在他身上反弹。
Take episode 60.
以第60集为例。
Duke's monologue is so fraught it's painful to watch.
杜克的独白是如此令人担忧，让人看着很痛苦。
But, hey, that's what credit cards are for-- to help you in a time of need.
但是，嘿，这就是信用卡的用途——在您需要的时候为您提供帮助。
So I'd use the credit cards-- Oh my God, I don't know what I'm doing.
所以我会使用信用卡——天哪，我不知道我在做什么。
This is just getting very stressful.
这让人压力很大。
But you know, we're married now.
但你知道，我们现在已经结婚了。
And then my wife says, "My biological clock is ticking--"
然后我妻子说：“我的生物钟正在滴答作响——”
So this goes on for another five minutes or so.
这样又持续了五分钟左右。
I can hear your breathing is getting a little weird.
我能听到你的呼吸变得有点奇怪。
Leslie is looking a little concerned-- there are couple cuts to her and she looks kind of-- her brow is a little furrowed there.
莱斯利看起来有点担心——她身上有几处伤口，她看起来有点——她的眉头有点皱着。
Just explain what was going on.
只是解释一下发生了什么事。
Yeah, well, I think that that particular night, the guests backed out, too.
是的，好吧，我想那天晚上，客人们也退出了。
And all my-- I mean, all together I had probably had like 10 monologue writers who had all quit by that point.
我的意思是，我总共可能有大约 10 位独白作家，但到那时他们都已经退出了。
Just because they just had other stuff in their life.
只是因为他们的生活中还有其他事情。
And so I was down to writing it myself.
所以我决定自己写它。
I think that was, like, one of my first ones that I wrote by myself.
我想那是我自己写的第一个作品。
And I was having panic attacks, like every day.
我就像每天一样惊恐发作。
They would last like, I don't know, like 20 minutes.
我不知道，它们会持续大约 20 分钟。
But then I would be scared that I'd have another one.
但那时我会害怕我会再拥有一个。
And then they'd last for weeks at a time, and it got to the point where I think I was having panic attacks for like six months in a row.
然后它们一次会持续几个星期，我想我已经连续六个月出现惊恐发作了。
And I think at that point right there, I wrote a monologue wanting to talk about stress, and then I started having panic attacks right then.
我想就在那时，我写了一篇独白想要谈论压力，然后我就开始恐慌。
During the monologue?
独白期间？
Duke Fightmaster During my monologue.
杜克格斗大师 在我的独白中。
God.
上帝。
I don't understand why you didn't just stop.
我不明白你为什么不停下来。
It sounds so miserable.
听起来好惨啊。
Like, you were having panic attacks.
就像，你正在惊恐发作。
You know, you're not having fun.
你知道，你玩得不开心。
Why didn't you just stop?
你为什么不停下来？
I guess somewhere in my mind I just thought, you know, no matter how bad things get, I'll just kind of put my head down and keep going.
我想我脑子里的某个地方只是想，你知道，无论事情变得多么糟糕，我都会低下头继续前进。
And I knew that it was ridiculous, starting a talk show.
我知道开始脱口秀是很荒谬的。
I mean, I knew that, outwardly, people think I'm ridiculous.
我的意思是，我知道，从表面上看，人们认为我很荒谬。
And I remember just driving around like, "The show isn't going anywhere, I'm not going anywhere, I've wasted these last years." And I remember just driving around so depressed.
我记得我开车四处走动，就像，“演出不会去任何地方，我也不会去任何地方，我已经浪费了这最后几年。”我记得我开车时心情很沮丧。
And I just felt like I had broken-- and I had a breakdown where I just started crying in my car.
我只是觉得我崩溃了——我崩溃了，我在车里开始哭泣。
And I just felt like I hit the core of my being and it was, "you're a loser." And I think that was part of my rock bottom.
我只是觉得我击中了我存在的核心，那就是，“你是个失败者。”我认为那是我人生最低谷的一部分。
Did you quit after that?
那之后你就放弃了吗？
Duke Fightmaster No. No, I think I still went for another year after that.
杜克拳击大师不。不，我想在那之后我还继续了一年。
You know, anyone who makes it in this life at anything, you always hear, has to go through hell.
你知道，你总是听说，任何人在这一生中取得成功，都必须经历地狱。
So I figured, "I'll just go through hell." I remember my friend who worked in real estate worked for one of those cheesy real estate motivators that used to yell out, "You have to have a break down to have a break through." So I was thinking, "OK, I've had my break down, so now I'm going to actually break through to some new level."
所以我想，“我会经历地狱。”我记得我在房地产行业工作的朋友曾为一位俗气的房地产激励者工作，他们常常大喊：“你必须崩溃才能取得突破。”所以我想，“好吧，我已经崩溃了，所以现在我要真正突破到某个新的水平了。”
By episode 60 and the on-air panic attack, a year had gone by.
到第 60 集和播出的恐慌发作时，一年已经过去了。
Conan O'Brien, of course, had long been replaced by Jimmy Fallon.
当然，柯南·奥布莱恩早已被吉米·法伦取代。
Duke still wasn't working, and the show still wasn't making any money.
杜克仍然没有工作，节目仍然没有赚到钱。
None of the sponsors materialized, though Duke did manage to get Red Bull to send them free drinks every week.
尽管杜克大学确实设法让红牛每周为他们提供免费饮料，但没有一个赞助商兑现。
The first people to leave were the monologue writers.
最先离开的人是独白作家。
And my best friend Ryan, he just got busier with work and had a baby.
我最好的朋友瑞安（Ryan），他的工作变得更加忙碌，并且生了孩子。
And the house band, Evan had left.
埃文也离开了室内乐队。
And the other house band guy left.
另一个室内乐队成员也离开了。
Our two camera people left, and I had to switch them.
我们的两个摄像人员离开了，我不得不交换他们。
And I think I was down to like one camera guy, and then I was just getting random people who showed up at the show to operate cameras.
我想我本来就喜欢一个摄影师，然后我就随机找一些出现在展会上的人来操作相机。
Leslie was basically not going to show that much.
莱斯利基本上不会表现得那么多。
I think Tanya quit towards the end.
我认为塔尼娅最后就放弃了。
I mean, towards the very end I was pretty much by myself.
我的意思是，到最后我几乎是独自一人。
We had a number one fan, and he was always excited when he was there, but, I mean, they just eventually didn't want to commit every Friday night to me.
我们有一位头号粉丝，当他在那里时他总是很兴奋，但是，我的意思是，他们最终不想把每个周五晚上都交给我。
Now, I have some news, and this could be our last night here at the Veteran's Hall.
现在，我有一些消息，这可能是我们在退伍军人大厅的最后一晚。
Unfortunately, these veterans, they want rent, is what they want.
不幸的是，这些老兵，他们想要的，就是租金。
And these veterans, I mean, they just get so crazy.
我的意思是，这些退伍军人，他们简直太疯狂了。
It's like, they're all up in your face and stuff just after only one time, just one time it happens, one time you don't pay rent for like four months, and then they call you and they're like, "Where's the rent?"
就好像，他们就在你面前出现了一次，就发生了一次，有一次你四个月没有付房租，然后他们打电话给你，问你，“房租在哪里？”
And did you, in fact, get kicked out of the Veteran's Hall?
事实上，你被赶出了退伍军人大厅吗？
Yeah, I think that night they picked up the keys.
是的，我想那天晚上他们拿到了钥匙。
It might have been the next couple nights, but the guy showed up-- and we didn't record it, but he showed up during the show and I gave him the keys.
可能是接下来的几个晚上，但那个人出现了——我们没有录下来，但他在演出期间出现了，我给了他钥匙。
I had to stop the show, and I went out and talked-- he was with his son, it was an old veteran with his son-- and I just said, "Listen, I'm very sorry, but we're broke and we can't pay the rent." [INAUDIBLE].
我不得不停止演出，我出去谈话——他和他的儿子在一起，这是一位老退伍军人和他的儿子——我只是说，“听着，我很抱歉，但我们破产了，我们付不起房租。” [听不清]。
How much was the rent?
房租是多少？
Duke Fightmaster It was really cheap.
Duke Fightmaster 真的很便宜。
It was $30 bucks a night.
一晚是 30 美元。
After the show got booted from the Veteran's Hall, it moved to a local nightclub, which at first seemed like a step up, but in fact, was the beginning of the end.
演出从退伍军人大厅被踢出后，转移到了当地的一家夜总会，乍一看这似乎是一个进步，但事实上，这是结束的开始。
The space was all wrong, the magic of the bedroom was long gone-- everyone could feel it.
这个空间完全不对劲，卧室的魔力早已消失——每个人都能感觉到。
So the nightclub shut them down.
于是夜总会就关门了。
And still Duke kept going, more or less alone, for another few months until finally, after two and a half years, he had nowhere to go.
杜克仍然继续前进，或多或少地孤身一人，又走了几个月，直到两年半后，他终于无处可去。
It was just like the whole roof was falling on my head.
就像整个屋顶都塌下来压在我头上一样。
I basically just stopped after that.
在那之后我基本上就停止了。
Notice Duke says he stopped.
注意杜克说他停了下来。
Not that he quit, he stopped.
不是他放弃了，而是他停了下来。
He describes the show as on hiatus.
他形容该节目处于中断状态。
A month or two later Duke got a job, one he says is perfect for him.
一两个月后，杜克找到了一份工作，他说这份工作非常适合他。
He works for a company that makes those advertisements you sometimes find hanging from your front doorknob-- they're called door hangers.
他在一家公司工作，这家公司制作的广告有时会挂在你的前门把手上——它们被称为门衣架。
Duke's job is to fly around the country and take photos of the people whose job it is to hang the hangers on your door.
杜克的工作是飞遍全国，给那些负责给你门上挂衣架的人拍照。
So his job is to make sure they're doing their job.
所以他的工作就是确保他们做好自己的工作。
He's a job cop.
他是一名职业警察。
Which maybe isn't his dream, but his schedule leaves him enough time to do some stand-up and to produce a podcast from his house.
这也许不是他的梦想，但他的日程安排让他有足够的时间做一些单口喜剧并在家里制作一个播客。
Plus, he's making some money.
另外，他还赚了一些钱。
After all he lost during the Duke Fightmaster Show-- the house, car, friends, self-esteem-- he's not sorry he tried it.
毕竟他在杜克拳击大师秀中失去了一切——房子、汽车、朋友、自尊——他并不后悔自己的尝试。
If I didn't try to do this talk show, then I would never know, and I would be on my death bed wondering like, "I could have done something." But now that I've done it I know I can't.
如果我没有尝试做这个脱口秀，那么我永远不会知道，我会在临终的床上想知道，“我本来可以做点什么。”但现在我已经做到了，我知道我做不到。
Going out and saying, "I'm going to be the replacement for Conan O'Brien," it turns out that that's a lot easier said than done.
走出去并说：“我将成为柯南·奥布莱恩的替代者”，事实证明这说起来容易做起来难。
It's not as easy to start a talk show and replace Conan O'Brien as I thought it might have been.
开始一个脱口秀节目并取代柯南·奥布莱恩并不像我想象的那么容易。
I find that a really funny-- "The lesson I learned is, it's really hard to replace Conan."
我觉得这真的很有趣——“我学到的教训是，取代柯南真的很难。”
[LAUGHTER] Sarah Koenig Because I feel like, well, I could have told you that three years ago.
[笑声] Sarah Koenig 因为我觉得，嗯，我可以在三年前告诉你这一点。
I mean, nobody gets to be Conan O'Brien.
我的意思是，没有人能成为柯南·奥布莱恩。
Only Conan O'Brien gets to be Conan O'Brien.
只有柯南·奥布莱恩才能成为柯南·奥布莱恩。
That's why it's so hard to be Conan O'Brien.
这就是为什么成为柯南·奥布莱恩如此困难。
I think that if you have some outlandish, big deal chasing type of an idea, you have to be in some type of denial to even try it.
我认为，如果你有某种古怪的、追求大目标的想法，你就必须以某种方式否认才能尝试它。
Thinking back on the show, how he believed he could do it and how so many other people did too, Duke says it's like he was an alcoholic dad who'd go out drinking and then come home and play with the kids and promise they'd all be going to Disneyland tomorrow.
回想起这部剧，他如何相信自己能做到，以及许多其他人也做到了，杜克说，这就像他是一个酗酒的父亲，出去喝酒，然后回家和孩子们一起玩，并承诺他们明天都会去迪士尼乐园。
And everybody is so happy and expectant, and then the next morning, the father wakes up and they're not going to Disneyland, and he's forgotten he ever said it.
每个人都那么高兴和期待，然后第二天早上，父亲醒来，他们不会去迪士尼乐园，他忘记了他曾经说过这句话。
Now that Duke has sobered up, he says really the biggest lesson he learned is that you can't just put your head down and soldier on for two and a half years.
现在杜克已经清醒了，他说他学到的最大教训是，你不能低着头坚持两年半。
At some point, you have to look up.
到了某个时刻，你必须抬头看看。
And if you see that, say, your wife, your sidekick, isn't in the audience, you correct your course.
如果你发现你的妻子、你的助手不在观众席中，你就会纠正你的路线。
Sarah Koenig is one of the producers of our show.
莎拉·科尼格是我们节目的制片人之一。
And these are the song stylings of Duke's wife, Leslie, from the show.
这些是杜克的妻子莱斯利在剧中的歌曲风格。
Coming up, Car Trek to Star Trek.
即将推出，《汽车迷航》到《星际迷航》。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
In my house growing up, there were two pictures of men being hit by beams of light.
在我成长的家里，有两张男人被光束击中的照片。
At the top of the stairs we had a painting of Joseph Smith's first vision.
在楼梯的顶部，我们有一幅约瑟夫·史密斯的第一个异象的画。
At age 14, he went into the woods looking for answers from God.
14岁时，他走进树林寻找上帝的答案。
In the painting, he's fallen to the ground and is looking up through the trees at a pillar of light-- God and Jesus are floating there.
在画中，他倒在地上，透过树林抬头看着一根光柱——上帝和耶稣漂浮在那里。
According to church history, this is the moment they told Joseph Smith to start a new faith.
根据教会历史，这是他们告诉约瑟·史密斯开始新信仰的时刻。
The other beam of light picture was a poster in my bedroom from the 1993 movie Fire in the Sky.
另一张光束图片是我卧室里的一张 1993 年电影《烈火冲天》的海报。
"Alien Abduction," the poster read.
海报上写着“外星人绑架”。
November 5, 1975, White Mountains, north eastern Arizona.
1975 年 11 月 5 日，亚利桑那州东北部怀特山。
The layout is remarkably similar to the Joseph Smith painting.
布局与约瑟夫史密斯的画非常相似。
Travis Walton, the abducted man, is standing in the woods.
被绑架的人特拉维斯·沃尔顿站在树林里。
A bright blue beam of light shoots from the sky diagonally across the image, striking him in the chest.
一道明亮的蓝色光束从天空斜射到图像上，击中了他的胸口。
His body is arched backward and he's suspended a foot above the ground.
他的身体向后拱起，悬在距地面一英尺的地方。
The beam of light is fuzzy and mysterious, and inside that beam is what made the poster so special.
光束模糊而神秘，而光束的内部正是海报如此特别的原因。
Written with a sharpie were the words, "Elna, don't go towards the light, Travis Walton."
用记号笔写着这样一句话：“艾尔娜，不要走向光明，特拉维斯·沃尔顿。”
Fire in the Sky is actually based on a true story, and my dad got me the poster because he knew Travis and some of the other guys involved.
《天空之火》实际上是根据一个真实的故事改编的，我爸爸给了我这张海报，因为他认识特拉维斯和其他一些参与其中的人。
Among UFO types, it's one of the best known alien abductions.
在不明飞行物类型中，这是最著名的外星人绑架事件之一。
Travis Walton was part of a logging crew with six other guys.
特拉维斯·沃尔顿 (Travis Walton) 和其他六名成员是伐木队的一员。
They had been cutting down trees all day and were on their way home.
他们砍了一整天的树，正在回家的路上。
They were all piled into one truck when they say they saw a bright light through the trees.
当他们说看到树林里有一道亮光时，他们都被塞进了一辆卡车。
When they got up close, it was a spaceship, hovering.
当他们走近一看，那是一艘宇宙飞船，正在盘旋。
Travis immediately jumped out of the truck to get a closer look.
特拉维斯立即跳下卡车仔细观察。
Here's how the movie played that scene.
电影是这样播放这个场景的。
Travis!
特拉维斯！
Movie Character 2 Travis!
电影角色 2 特拉维斯！
You son of a bitch!
你这个王八蛋！
The hell you doing?
你到底在做什么？
Get back in the truck [BLEEP]!
回到卡车上[哔]！
My God.
我的上帝。
That's when the beam of light struck him in the chest.
就在这时，一道光芒击中了他的胸口。
The impact threw him to the ground.
冲击力把他摔倒在地。
His friends took off, afraid that the UFO would get them next.
他的朋友们起飞了，担心不明飞行物会袭击他们。
A quarter mile later they realized the ship wasn't after them and headed back.
四分之一英里后，他们意识到这艘船没有追赶他们，于是他们返回了。
When they got to the site, Travis was gone.
当他们到达现场时，特拉维斯已经走了。
He was missing for five days, and when he returned he claimed he'd been abducted.
他失踪了五天，当他回来时，他声称自己被绑架了。
The details are familiar-- aliens with big eyes and big, rounded heads.
细节很熟悉——外星人有大眼睛和又大又圆的脑袋。
There's an exam table.
有一张考试桌。
But surprise, no probe.
但令人惊讶的是，没有探测。
And Travis is let go unhurt.
特拉维斯安然无恙地被释放。
My dad knew these guys because he was from the same town as Travis and all six witnesses-- Snowflake, Arizona.
我父亲认识这些人，因为他与特拉维斯和所有六名目击者来自同一个城镇——亚利桑那州的斯诺弗莱克。
It's a small Mormon town named for the two pioneers who founded it, Erastus Snow and William Jordan Flake.
这是一个摩门教小镇，以其创始人埃拉斯特斯·斯诺 (Erastus Snow) 和威廉·乔丹·弗莱克 (William Jordan Flake) 的两位先驱者的名字命名。
Almost everyone in town is either a Snow or a Flake, and Mormon.
镇上几乎每个人都是雪派或雪派，或者是摩门教徒。
A month ago, I found myself driving north from Phoenix towards the White Mountains with my soon-to-be be brother-in-law Josh Dickens and This American Life producer Jonathan Menjivar.
一个月前，我和我即将成为姐夫的乔什·狄更斯以及《美国生活》的制片人乔纳森·门吉瓦尔一起从菲尼克斯向北驱车前往怀特山。
So what the hell are we doing right now?
那么我们现在到底在做什么？
Right now we are driving to the mountains to meet Ken Peterson and Mike Rogers, who were both witnesses to Travis Walton's abduction by aliens in 1975-- 35 years ago today.
现在我们正开车去山区会见肯·彼得森和迈克·罗杰斯，他们都是 1975 年（35 年前的今天）特拉维斯·沃尔顿被外星人绑架的目击者。
And we're driving up there to camp overnight on the site of the abduction with Ken.
我们正开车前往那里，与肯一起在绑架现场过夜。
Ken has camped out on the site of the abduction before.
肯以前曾在绑架现场露营过。
Three times.
三次。
Of all the witnesses that night, he's the only one who still fixates on it.
那天晚上所有的目击者中，他是唯一一个仍然关注着这件事的人。
He feels like he missed his chance to connect with these other beings, to be taken on board the space craft the way Travis had been.
他觉得自己错过了与这些其他生物联系的机会，错过了像特拉维斯那样被带上宇宙飞船的机会。
In the years immediately after the event, Ken assumed the aliens would come back and find them again, that there was a reason they'd reached out to him and his friends, and he wants a re-do.
在事件发生后的几年里，肯认为外星人会回来并再次找到他们，他们向他和他的朋友伸出援手是有原因的，他想要重做。
This interests me for reasons that are hard to talk about quickly and glibly on the radio, but I'd had my own encounter in the woods, years ago.
这让我感兴趣，因为很难在广播中快速而流畅地谈论的原因，但几年前我在树林里也有过自己的遭遇。
When I was 14, I went on a church hiking trip, and they told us all to go into the woods like Joseph Smith did and pray.
当我 14 岁的时候，我去教堂徒步旅行，他们告诉我们所有人都要像约瑟·史密斯那样走进树林祈祷。
I found a quite clearing, knelt down, and asked a kind of mushy combination of, "Is there really a God," and "If there is, am I supposed to be a Mormon?" And I waited.
我找到一块空地，跪下来，用一种糊涂的方式问：“真的有上帝吗？”和“如果有，我是不是应该成为摩门教徒？”我等待着。
And then the sun came through the clouds and warm light hit my face.
然后太阳穿过云层，温暖的阳光照在我的脸上。
I felt like someone was wrapping their arms around me and hugging me.
我感觉有人用双臂搂住我并拥抱我。
My body rocked back and forth, and I knew it wasn't me who was doing it.
我的身体前后摇晃，我知道这不是我干的。
But over the last two years, I've lost my faith.
但近两年来，我已经失去了信心。
The scale of this is hard to communicate.
这种规模很难沟通。
It affects everything.
它影响一切。
My friends, what I think about when I'm walking down the street, what I use for comfort.
我的朋友们，当我走在街上时我在想什么，我用什么来安慰。
Not being able to pray, not having God as a constant companion, I feel like my best friend has died.
无法祈祷，没有上帝作为永远的陪伴，我感觉我最好的朋友已经去世了。
And when I look back on that moment and I had in the woods, I wonder if it was all in my head.
当我回想起在树林里的那一刻时，我想知道这一切是否都在我的脑海里。
And I've wished it could happen again.
我希望它能再次发生。
I've wished that so many times.
我曾多次这样希望过。
And I know it's ridiculous to compare knowing God to seeing UFOs-- they're nothing alike.
我知道将认识上帝与看到不明飞行物进行比较是荒谬的——它们毫无相似之处。
But because of my experience in the woods, I thought I understood Ken's yearning for a second encounter.
但由于我在树林里的经历，我想我理解肯对第二次相遇的渴望。
That's why I wanted to talk to him.
这就是为什么我想和他谈谈。
So do you have any expectations for what's going to happen tonight?
那么你对今晚会发生什么有什么期待吗？
I mean, I guess, why do you want to talk to Ken about these things?
我的意思是，我想，你为什么想和肯谈论这些事情？
I want to hear what he saw, first of all.
首先我想听听他看到了什么。
And I want to know how he's been able to, in spite of obstacles and in spite of-- it's not a convenient thing to believe, everyone in Snowflake thinks he's crazy and makes fun of him for believing these things-- how and why it matters to him to believe.
我想知道他是如何做到的，尽管有障碍，尽管——这不是一件容易相信的事情，雪花里的每个人都认为他疯了，并嘲笑他相信这些事情——如何以及为什么相信对他来说很重要。
But do you feel like you're going to get any answers about your crisis of faith talking to Ken?
但你觉得与肯交谈后你能得到有关信仰危机的答案吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I think I've been avoiding talking about any of the stuff we've been talking about, admitting that I still want to believe.
我想我一直在避免谈论我们一直在谈论的任何事情，承认我仍然想相信。
But I think this is an experience where I've allowed myself to think about it.
但我认为这是一次让我自己思考的经历。
And I was hoping to at least come to some sense of peace of mind.
我希望至少能获得某种内心的平静。
For decades, Travis and the others have lived among people who doubt them.
几十年来，特拉维斯和其他人一直生活在怀疑他们的人中间。
Their story made international news, and they passed polygraph tests, but no one in Snowflake believed them.
他们的故事成为国际新闻，他们也通过了测谎仪测试，但雪花镇没有人相信他们。
My Uncle Sank was the sheriff in charge of the investigation.
我叔叔桑克是负责调查的警长。
James Garner plays him in the film, and he led the skeptics.
詹姆斯·加纳在电影中扮演他，他引发了怀疑者的声音。
I remember when I was a kid, people made fun of Travis.
我记得当我还是个孩子的时候，人们取笑特拉维斯。
There was even a poem published in the local paper whose gist was, "The aliens wanted a perfect human specimen, but they got Travis Walton instead."
当地报纸甚至发表了一首诗，其主旨是：“外星人想要一个完美的人类标本，但他们得到了特拉维斯·沃尔顿。”
It's such a cool underdog story, I guess.
我想，这是一个很酷的失败者故事。
My brother-in-law to be, Josh, is along for the ride because Fire in the Sky is his favorite movie.
我的妹夫乔什也跟着一起去，因为《烈火天空》是他最喜欢的电影。
When he found out that my dad knew Travis Walton, he lost it.
当他发现我父亲认识特拉维斯·沃尔顿时，他失去了理智。
I immediately called one of my friends, who-- we're like total Fire in the Sky nerds.
我立即打电话给我的一位朋友，我们就像天空之火的书呆子。
And we were flipping out together on the phone, and how exciting it was.
我们在电话里一起兴奋不已，这真是太令人兴奋了。
And I'm sending him an invitation to our wedding.
我正在向他发送我们婚礼的邀请函。
We meet up with our two witnesses, Ken and Mike.
我们会见了两位证人，肯和迈克。
And Jonathan and I ride up with them.
乔纳森和我和他们一起骑行。
Josh is in the four wheel drive behind us.
乔希坐在我们后面的四轮驱动车上。
Mike is burly with a wavy mullet.
迈克身材魁梧，有一头波浪形的鲻鱼。
Ken looks older that his 60 years.
肯看起来比他 60 岁还要老。
Mike's behind the wheel like he was on the day of the abduction.
迈克坐在方向盘后面，就像绑架那天一样。
Here's Ken, who's sitting next to him.
这是肯，坐在他旁边。
I'm kind of excited.
我有点兴奋。
This is my first time out there on the anniversary date.
这是我第一次在周年纪念日出去。
Mike's, also.
迈克的也是。
We turn onto small, bumpy dirt roads, and as we approach the peak of the mountains, the forest looks bleak.
我们拐上崎岖不平的小土路，当我们接近山顶时，森林显得荒凉。
Eight years ago, a fire, one of the worst in Arizona's history, swept through the mountains.
八年前，一场亚利桑那州历史上最严重的火灾之一席卷了群山。
It burned for 20 days and wiped out almost half a million acres leaving mostly empty space, broken up by little burnt spires like stumps jutting out of a swamp, only without the swamp.
它燃烧了20天，烧毁了近50万英亩土地，留下了大部分空地，被烧焦的小尖塔所分割，就像从沼泽中伸出的树桩一样，只是没有沼泽。
The fire makes it almost impossible for Ken and Mike to recognize the site, and we got lost.
大火使肯和迈克几乎无法认出这个地点，我们迷路了。
We get out of the car several times, trying old fire roads covered with pine needles and dirt and fallen logs.
我们好几次下了车，尝试了覆盖着松针、泥土和倒下的木头的旧消防道路。
Ken fishes for anything that might be a clue.
肯寻找任何可能有线索的东西。
Seems like I remember this leaning pine tree over here.
看来我记得这里有棵倾斜的松树。
Up close, those burnt spires look like Martian cacti.
近距离观察，那些烧焦的尖塔看起来就像火星仙人掌。
Finally, they see a pile of stones they left as a marker years ago.
最后，他们看到了一堆多年前留下来作为标记的石头。
Yeah, down ahead.
是啊，就在前面。
Ken Peterson Down there.
肯·彼得森 在那儿。
The UFO would've been up here close to the top of the ridge.
不明飞行物应该就在靠近山脊顶部的地方。
I thought it was just, like, straight woods.
我以为那只是笔直的树林。
I didn't realize there was a ridge and a drop-off.
我没有意识到有山脊和陡坡。
It's pretty up here.
这里很漂亮。
From the ridge where they say the UFO hovered, you can look out over the whole valley below.
从据说不明飞行物盘旋的山脊上，您可以俯瞰下面的整个山谷。
Ken started telling us about that night.
肯开始向我们讲述那天晚上的事情。
When they first saw the light through the trees, they thought it might be hunters or maybe a small forest fire.
当他们第一次看到树林中的光亮时，他们认为可能是猎人，也可能是一场小型森林火灾。
We got right to this spot, and there it was.
我们就到了这个地方，它就在那里。
It was probably about the size of two vans.
大概有两辆货车那么大。
Perfect saucer-shaped.
完美的碟形。
Kind of a glow coming out of it, real soft light just lighting up the area around it.
它发出一种光芒，真正柔和的光线照亮了它周围的区域。
Travis immediately got out of the truck and then all of a sudden I see the saucer start to wobble a little bit.
特拉维斯立即下了卡车，然后突然我看到碟子开始有点摇晃。
A flash of light come out, last thing I saw was Travis's arms outstretched.
一道光芒闪现，我最后看到的就是特拉维斯张开的双臂。
As you'd imagine, Josh couldn't be more excited.
正如你所想象的那样，乔什非常兴奋。
Even Ken notices.
就连肯也注意到了。
That's nice to see you come along, be part of it.
很高兴看到你的加入，成为其中的一部分。
Yeah, well I didn't want to sound like a bumbling fan or anything, but it really has always been a huge, I guess you could say, dream.
是的，我不想听起来像个笨手笨脚的粉丝什么的，但它确实一直是一个巨大的，我想你可以说，梦想。
We watch the sun go down behind the mountains.
我们看着太阳落到山后。
Mike hadn't planned on staying the night.
迈克原本没打算留下来过夜。
He said he had a nice home with a warm bed where he didn't have to worry about coyotes, bears or aliens.
他说他有一个漂亮的家，有一张温暖的床，在那里他不必担心郊狼、熊或外星人。
Well, you take care.
嗯，你保重。
Ken Peterson All right.
肯·彼得森 好吧。
Thanks for coming up for the anniversary.
感谢您前来参加周年纪念日。
Yeah, happy 35th, guys.
是的，35 日快乐，伙计们。
Ken Peterson I said, "Happy Anniversary, Sweetheart," to him this morning.
肯·彼得森 今天早上我对他说：“周年快乐，亲爱的”。
We found a flat spot to set up camp.
我们找了一块平坦的地方扎营。
Inside the tent, we all huddled around a little propane heater.
在帐篷里，我们都挤在一个小丙烷加热器周围。
Ken started telling us a little bit about himself.
肯开始向我们介绍一些关于他自己的事情。
Prior to this trip, all I knew was that he was divorced, had kids, lived alone in a trailer, and that I had to call him at his sister's because he couldn't afford to use his cell phone minutes.
在这次旅行之前，我只知道他离婚了，有孩子，独自住在拖车里，而且我不得不给他打电话，因为他用不起手机通话时间。
He told us he spends two or three days a week in the library using the internet to research his UFO theories, which he has time for because he's pretty much retired now.
他告诉我们，他每周花两三天在图书馆使用互联网研究他的不明飞行物理论，他有时间这样做，因为他现在已经退休了。
And I tell everybody-- I have four sons-- I tell people that they put me out to pasture.
我告诉每个人——我有四个儿子——我告诉人们他们把我放牧了。
Just live by myself, and I'm just totally obsessed.
独自生活，我完全着迷。
Everybody else realized that I'm obsessed with the UFO encounter.
其他人都意识到我对不明飞行物的遭遇很着迷。
Do you wish it had been you?
你希望是你吗？
Ken Peterson Yeah.
肯·彼得森 是的。
Yeah, I wished I would have went over there with him.
是的，我希望我能和他一起去那里。
Right now, with 20/20 hindsight, and knowing that nothing that terrible happened to him, it would have been quite an experience to have gone for the ride.
现在，事后诸葛亮，知道自己没有发生那么可怕的事情，如果能去搭便车，那将是一次相当不错的经历。
During the time after when you sort of hoped that it might happen again, or wondered if it would happen again, and then more time passed and it hadn't happened, did you ever lose faith in it?
当你有点希望它会再次发生，或者想知道它是否会再次发生，然后时间过去了，它却没有发生，你是否曾经对它失去信心？
Feel sincerely doubtful?
真诚地感到怀疑吗？
Never about the incident.
从来不提那次事件。
I've always believed that Travis was taken.
我一直相信特拉维斯被带走了。
It's been a cross to bear with family, and Mormons in general.
对于家人和整个摩门教徒来说，这是一个巨大的痛苦。
What do Mormons say?
摩门教徒说什么？
Ken Peterson Well, they don't seem to be too interested in ETs or UFOs.
肯·彼得森：好吧，他们似乎对外星人或不明飞行物不太感兴趣。
With my sons, for a long time I was telling them about these things I was experiencing, and they got pretty tired of it.
和我的儿子们在一起，很长一段时间我都在告诉他们我所经历的这些事情，他们对此感到非常厌倦。
And my sister, she's totally turned off by it.
而我的妹妹，她对此完全失去了兴趣。
That's the lonely part of this, is nobody will hear me out on it.
这就是孤独的部分，没有人会听我说出来。
Earlier, I'd asked Mike how he managed to hold on to his version of the events in the face of so much opposition.
早些时候，我曾问迈克，面对如此多的反对，他是如何坚持自己对事件的看法的。
Did he ever have doubts?
他曾经有过怀疑吗？
I'm very skeptical of anything and everything else.
我对任何事情都非常怀疑。
I even have certain skepticisms about this.
我什至对此抱有一定的怀疑。
I would have even doubted my own self.
我什至会怀疑自己。
If something like this would have happened to me by myself, or even with one other person and that person was gone or abducted or whatever, I would doubt my own side.
如果这样的事情发生在我自己身上，或者甚至发生在另一个人身上，而那个人已经消失或被绑架或其他什么，我会怀疑自己的立场。
I think over a few years I would have just decided it was some kind of a dream or some kind of an odd occurrence that has no answer, and I left it at that.
我想几年后我就会认定这是某种梦或某种没有答案的奇怪事件，然后我就这样了。
But there were seven of us out here, so it made it pretty easy to rely on the other guys for complete and continuous memory.
但我们这里有七个人，所以很容易依赖其他人来获得完整和连续的记忆。
They have each other, so they don't doubt.
他们拥有彼此，所以他们不会怀疑。
When Mike said this, I thought about how the Book of Mormon begins with a document, the Testimony of the Three Witnesses, each claiming that they saw the golden plates Joseph Smith translated into scripture.
当迈克说这句话时，我想到《摩尔门经》是如何以一份文件《三位见证人的证词》开始的，每个人都声称他们看到了约瑟·史密斯翻译成经文的金页片。
It's supposed to fulfill this prophecy from the Bible that says, "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."
它应该应验《圣经》中的预言：“凭着两三个见证人的口，一切话就都成立。”
Basically, God made sure Joseph showed at least three people the plates so they could sustain each other's faith, and so that other people would believe them.
基本上，神确保约瑟至少向三个人展示这些页片，以便他们能够维持彼此的信仰，以便其他人相信他们。
That's what I don't have-- other witnesses.
这就是我所没有的——其他证人。
Ever since I moved to New York, fewer and fewer of my friends are Mormon.
自从我搬到纽约后，我的摩门教朋友越来越少。
Now I can count them on one hand.
现在我一只手就能数出来。
We don't want to believe our faith is contingent on who we hang out with, but there you are.
我们不想相信我们的信仰取决于我们和谁一起出去玩，但你就是这样。
As it gets later, things take an unexpected turn.
随着时间的推移，事情发生了意想不到的转变。
Ken tells me it's easy to hold on to what he believes about their encounter in the woods because he sees proof all the time.
肯告诉我，对于他们在树林里的遭遇，他很容易坚持自己的信念，因为他一直都能看到证据。
Signs and coincidences going back to that night they encountered the UFO.
迹象和巧合可以追溯到他们遇到不明飞行物的那天晚上。
I believe that it was intentional, that it was a display of the symbology of the phoenix, mythological phoenix.
我相信这是故意的，它是为了展示凤凰的象征意义，神话中的凤凰。
The phoenix, the mythological bird that died and was reborn.
凤凰，神话中死去又重生的鸟。
You know, death and rebirth.
你知道，死亡和重生。
And, you know, we're fairly close to Phoenix.
而且，你知道，我们离凤凰城相当近。
Three of the guys were on our crew had just come up from Phoenix.
我们船员中的三个人刚刚从菲尼克斯过来。
And, of course, afterwards with all the media coverage and all the Phoenix TV stations there.
当然，之后还有所有媒体的报道和所有凤凰卫视的报道。
He keeps unspooling these associations with the word phoenix.
他不断地把这些与凤凰这个词的联系解开。
"You'll think this is really crazy," he says more than once, and the thought does occur to me.
“你会觉得这真的很疯狂，”他不止一次地说，而我确实也有这个想法。
If he could just figure out the meaning of these signs, he says, he'd understand the aliens' plan.
他说，如果他能弄清楚这些标志的含义，他就会明白外星人的计划。
"Lately," he tells us, "all signs point to the actors Joaquin and River Phoenix.
“最近，”他告诉我们，“所有迹象都指向演员华金和瑞凡·菲尼克斯。
One is living, one is dead," he says, "so there's death and rebirth again, like the Phoenix." He bought some bread from a woman whose last name was river, like River Phoenix.
一个人活着，一个人死了，”他说，“所以就会有死亡和重生，就像凤凰一样。”他从一个姓河的女人那里买了一些面包，就像河菲尼克斯一样。
She knew someone who worked on the movie Signs, which starred Joaquin Phoenix, and this woman, River, turned out to be Puerto Rican.
她认识一个曾参与拍摄华金·菲尼克斯主演的电影《招牌》的人，而这个名叫瑞芙的女人是波多黎各人。
She was born in San Juan, Puerto Rico.
她出生于波多黎各圣胡安。
That's where Joaquin Phoenix was born.
那是杰昆·菲尼克斯出生的地方。
She was telling me this on Joaquin Phoenix's birthday, right?
她是在杰昆·菲尼克斯生日那天告诉我的，对吗？
Ken told us that he sees these kinds of connections all the time now, in the smallest things.
肯告诉我们，他现在一直在最小的事情上看到这种联系。
Like after he bought that loaf of bread, I called, wanting to interview him, and my last name is Baker.
就像他买了那条面包后，我打电话想采访他，我姓贝克。
Bread.
面包。
Baker.
贝克.
The store next to the stand where he bought the bread was called Big 5 Sporting Goods.
他买面包的摊位旁边的商店叫Big 5 Sporting Goods。
So then I think, "what's this Big 5 about?" And I see on the Big 5 that there's a sign there that says, "Shooting star."
然后我想，“这五巨头是做什么的？”我在 Big 5 上看到有一个标志，上面写着“流星”。
The way he spoke felt familiar.
他说话的语气让人感觉很熟悉。
I used to notice signs all the time.
我以前总是注意到迹象。
Everything had a meaning, and it all added up to something.
一切都有其意义，所有的一切加在一起就构成了某种东西。
I'd be broke and alone and look down and see a ladybug on my should and think, "See?
我会身无分文，孤身一人，低下头，看到一只瓢虫在我的肩膀上，然后想：“看到了吗？
Someone is watching out for me." Ken was just more extreme about it, like his thing about bread and Big 5.
有人在看着我。”肯只是对此更加极端，就像他对面包和 Big 5 的看法一样。
And I see on the Big 5 that there's a sign there that says, "Shooting star."
我在 Big 5 上看到有一个标志，上面写着“流星”。
It's almost like-- Now I'm playing the same game.
这几乎就像——现在我正在玩同一个游戏。
The last big moment that I feel like was a spiritual experience that I had was probably three years ago, maybe four years ago, where I felt like it was getting so hard to believe for me.
我觉得最后一个重要时刻是我经历的一次精神体验，可能是三年前，也许四年前，当时我觉得这对我来说变得如此难以相信。
And I just was like, "You know, I want a sign again like the one I had when I was young.
我只是想，“你知道，我想要一个像我年轻时那样的标志。
And I just want you tell me that you're there, God."
我只想你告诉我你就在那里，上帝。”
And I knelt down and I prayed and I asked this.
我跪下来祈祷并问了这个问题。
And then I looked up at the sky and I was like, "The sky?
然后我抬头看着天空，心想：“天空？
That's the sign?" Like, anyone can see this.
就是这个标志？”就像，任何人都可以看到这一点。
This isn't a sign.
这不是一个迹象。
You just see a few stars.
你只看到几颗星星。
It's New York-- you see, like, maybe five stars.
这是纽约——你看，也许是五颗星。
And just as I was saying, "This isn't anything, this is just what's always there," one of the stars shot across the sky.
正当我说“这没什么，这只是一直存在的东西”时，一颗星星划过天空。
And it was biggest shooting star I'd ever seen.
这是我见过的最大的流星。
I still don't know what to think of that moment.
我仍然不知道那一刻该作何感想。
It was shocking.
太令人震惊了。
But as soon as it happened, I did the thing I do now-- I started questioning.
但事情一发生，我就做了现在做的事——我开始质疑。
Was that meant for me?
那是为我准备的吗？
Or did I just happen to look up at the exact moment when a star shot across they sky?
或者我只是碰巧在一颗星星划过天空的那一刻抬头看？
I had forgotten about that moment until I shared it with Ken, and it made me think, "Well, that's an even bigger sign that what I experienced in the woods as a teenager, so really, I have had signs since then." And that's when I realized I don't just want a sign, I want to be myself at 14 again-- the kind of person who believes in signs.
我已经忘记了那一刻，直到我与肯分享它，这让我想，“嗯，这是一个比我十几岁时在树林里经历的更大的迹象，所以说真的，从那时起我就已经有了迹象。”就在那时我意识到我不只是想要一个标志，我想再次成为14岁的自己——一个相信标志的人。
Elna Baker.
埃尔娜·贝克。
She's the author of a memoir called, New York Regional Mormon Singles Halloween Dance.
她是一本名为《纽约地区摩门教单身万圣节舞会》的回忆录的作者。
[MUSIC - "MY FLYING SAUCER" BY BILLY BRAGG AND WILCO]
[音乐 - 比利·布拉格和威尔科的《我的飞碟》]
I've got this thing, and it's [BLEEP] golden.
我有这个东西，它是[BLEEP]金色的。
And I'm just not giving it up for [BLEEP] nothing.
我只是不会为了[BLEEP]而放弃它。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。