416: Iraq After Us - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #416 | October 15, 2010 416: Iraq After Us Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 416 集 | 2010 年 10 月 15 日 416：伊拉克追随我们 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass The US has been in Iraq for seven years and I realized the other day, when I heard this clip of tape that I'm about to play you, that I've never even really understood what Baghdad looks like.
序言 Ira Glass 美国在伊拉克已经有七年了，有一天，当我听到我要给你播放的这段磁带时，我意识到我从来没有真正了解过巴格达是什么样子。
So what are we looking at?
那么我们在看什么呢？
Larry Kaplow Right now, we're here right almost in the geographic center of Baghdad on the fifth floor of a hotel.
Larry Kaplow：现在，我们几乎就在巴格达的地理中心，在一家酒店的五楼。
This is Larry Kaplow, a journalist who reported from Baghdad for the first six years of the war.
我是拉里·卡普洛，一位在巴格达报道战争头六年的记者。
He went back this summer, with one of our producers, Nancy Updike.
今年夏天他和我们的制片人之一南希·厄普代克一起回来了。
They spent a month in Iraq.
他们在伊拉克呆了一个月。
Think of Miami, because it looks like that.
想想迈阿密，因为它看起来就是这样。
It's totally flat and there are lot of palm trees and lots of big highways.
它完全平坦，有很多棕榈树和很多高速公路。
And think if you came out of Cutler Ridge or Coral Gables, but it was walled in.
想想如果你从卡特勒岭或科勒尔盖布尔斯出来，但那里被围墙围住了。
Just to drive along a street and have, two feet away from you, you look of the window of your car, you see nothing but wall.
只是沿着街道行驶，在离你两英尺远的地方，你向车窗看去，除了墙壁之外什么也看不见。
It's too tall to even see the top of it out your car window.
它太高了，甚至从车窗外都看不到它的顶部。
You just looked out and you see wall segment, wall segment, wall segment.
你只要向外看，就会看到墙段、墙段、墙段。
So it's like Miami, except these concrete blast walls that honeycomb the city, 12 feet tall, giant great dominoes, thousands of them, creating a kind of endless maze.
所以它就像迈阿密，除了这些混凝土防爆墙，这些混凝土防爆墙将整个城市蜂拥而出，12英尺高，巨大的多米诺骨牌，数千个，创造了一种无尽的迷宫。
They fully enclose entire neighborhoods.
它们完全包围了整个社区。
Which means that to run errands, or go to your job, or do anything normal outside your own neighborhood, you go through checkpoints each time you cross from one place to another, over and over.
这意味着，为了办事、上班，或者在自己的社区之外做任何正常的事情，每次从一个地方穿越到另一个地方时，你都会一遍又一遍地经过检查站。
Even the soldiers at the checkpoints find these checkpoints so depressing that lots of them are decorated with fake flowers, bleached by the sun, in strands and bunches.
就连检查站的士兵也觉得这些检查站太压抑了，很多检查站都装饰着一束一束的假花，被太阳晒得褪色。
Now the other thing about the way the city looks, Larry says, and he's back in the States.
拉里说，现在关于这座城市的面貌的另一件事是，他回到了美国。
He's actually sitting right here with me in the studio, is that with Saddam Hussein gone, Baghdad is now clearly a Shiite city.
他实际上和我一起坐在工作室里，随着萨达姆侯赛因的下台，巴格达现在显然是一个什叶派城市。
It's been majority Shiite for generations, but you couldn't tell before Saddam fell, because Saddam led a regime dominated by the Sunnis, and they tried to paper over the religious differences between the two groups.
几代人以来，什叶派占多数，但在萨达姆倒台之前你无法判断，因为萨达姆领导着一个由逊尼派主导的政权，他们试图掩盖两个群体之间的宗教差异。
But that changed, the day the US invaded, right?
但在美国入侵的那一天，情况发生了变化，对吗？
Right.
正确的。
I was there and within hours after the regime fell, we immediately saw people putting up the Shiite flags, the satiny all black, all red, all green banners going up on houses, offices, mosques.
我在那里，政权倒台后几个小时内，我们立即看到人们竖起什叶派旗帜，房屋、办公室、清真寺上都挂着全黑、全红、全绿的缎面旗帜。
Along with these portraits or icons of Shiite figures.
还有这些什叶派人物的肖像或图标。
And it was like suddenly there was this whole other geography of the city.
就好像突然之间，这座城市出现了完全不同的地理环境。
A place we thought of before as like, OK, this is just a poor neighborhood, suddenly it's like, wow, this is like a really-- this is all Shiite.
我们之前想到的一个地方就像是，好吧，这只是一个贫穷的社区，突然间它就像，哇，这就像一个真正的——这都是什叶派。
And then you go to the other, richer neighborhoods and they don't have any flags here.
然后你去其他更富裕的社区，他们这里没有任何旗帜。
These must be the Sunni engineers and professors who were in the regime.
这些人一定是当时政权中的逊尼派工程师和教授。
And it really changed your whole sense of geography of the city.
它确实改变了你对这座城市地理的整体认知。
And let's just review before we say anything else about Iraq.
在我们谈论伊拉克之前，让我们先回顾一下。
Shia versus Sunni.
什叶派与逊尼派。
Well, it's a big over simplification, but one way to think about it is that they're like Protestants and Catholics.
嗯，这是一个很大的过度简化，但一种思考方式是他们就像新教徒和天主教徒。
Shiites being like the Catholics.
什叶派就像天主教徒一样。
They have a hierarchy of Priests or Imams leading all the way up to Ayatollahs and Grand-Ayatollahs the way Catholics have a hierarchy of priests leading all the way up to the Vatican and the Pope.
他们有一个牧师或伊玛目等级制度，一直到阿亚图拉和大阿亚图拉，就像天主教徒有一个牧师等级制度，一直到梵蒂冈和教皇。
They have much more of an emphasis on rituals, on icons, on what we call saints, their religious leaders throughout the centuries.
他们更加重视仪式、圣像、我们所说的圣人，以及几个世纪以来他们的宗教领袖。
And Sunni doesn't have that?
而逊尼派就没有这个吗？
Larry Kaplow The Sunni don't have that.
拉里·卡普洛 逊尼派没有这个。
And some Sunni will say the Shia are not focused enough just on Mohammed and God, that they've created this assortment of religious leadership.
一些逊尼派会说什叶派不仅仅关注穆罕默德和上帝，他们创造了这种宗教领导层。
They would look at Shia and say, they're are too showy.
他们会看着什叶派说，他们太浮夸了。
I don't need to show off my religion like that.
我不需要那样炫耀我的宗教信仰。
The same way some Protestants will look at Catholics and say that and sort of turn up their nose at that.
就像一些新教徒会以同样的方式看待天主教徒并这样说，并且对此嗤之以鼻。
Now, the Sunnis are the minority in Iraq.
现在，逊尼派是伊拉克的少数民族。
Saddam Hussein was Sunni.
萨达姆侯赛因是逊尼派。
And now that he's out, the overwhelming majority of the country, the Shia, are in control.
现在他下台了，这个国家的绝大多数人，即什叶派，已经控制了。
In the past in Iraq, Shia and Sunni lived side by side and they inter-married.
过去在伊拉克，什叶派和逊尼派比邻而居，并通婚。
Since the invasion, as we've all heard, there have been been periods of Sunni and Shia killing each other.
正如我们所知，自入侵以来，逊尼派和什叶派曾出现过互相残杀的时期。
So, today are they're getting along?
那么，今天他们相处得好吗？
Well, Nancy Updike, who was in Iraq with Larry is also in the studio.
嗯，与拉里一起在伊拉克的南希·厄普代克也在录音室里。
Nancy, how is it going?
南希，怎么样？
Well, Larry and I talked to this Shiite guy, he's an educated man, a professor, you've known him for years, right Larry?
好吧，拉里和我和这个什叶派人士谈过，他是一个受过教育的人，一位教授，你认识他很多年了，对吧拉里？
Right, I have.
对，我有。
Although he still didn't feel safe to be speaking to Americans on the radio, so he didn't want to be identified.
尽管他仍然觉得在广播中与美国人交谈并不安全，所以他不想被透露身份。
I just wanted you to meet him and hear him talk about daily life.
我只是想让你见见他，听他谈论日常生活。
Like he told us that his salary which was $3 a month before Saddam fell is now $1,000 a month.
就像他告诉我们的那样，萨达姆倒台前他的工资是每月 3 美元，现在是每月 1,000 美元。
And that's very typical for people now, to have more money.
对于现在的人们来说，拥有更多的钱是非常典型的。
On the other hand, he told us that he has to go through 10 checkpoints every morning to get to school.
另一方面，他告诉我们，他每天早上必须经过10个检查站才能到达学校。
The trip used to take 15 minutes, now it can take an hour or two.
过去需要15分钟，现在可能需要一两个小时。
And then, in the middle of this, as we were talking to him about his life, I was surprised because people don't usually talk about this so openly, he goes into the tension between Sunni and Shia.
然后，在这中间，当我们与他谈论他的生活时，我很惊讶，因为人们通常不会如此公开地谈论这个问题，他陷入了逊尼派和什叶派之间的紧张关系。
We have not recovered fully.
我们还没有完全康复。
We are still in the recovery period.
我们仍处于恢复期。
So he's Shia, he's got Sunni friends, he has a Sunni girlfriend.
所以他是什叶派，他有逊尼派朋友，他有一个逊尼派女朋友。
And he told us this story about a Sunni friend of his who owed him $200.
他给我们讲了一个关于他的一个逊尼派朋友欠他 200 美元的故事。
And they were going to lunch to settle up this debt.
他们要去吃午饭来还清这笔债务。
The professor suggested a fish restaurant in a Shiite neighborhood, that would be safe and comfortable for him.
教授建议在什叶派社区开一家鱼餐厅，这对他来说既安全又舒适。
And the friend, the Sunni friend, wanted to go to a neighborhood called Al Adhamiya.
这位逊尼派朋友想去一个叫阿尔阿德哈米亚的社区。
Just a year ago, the professor would never have gone to this neighborhood.
就在一年前，教授绝不会去这个社区。
It just would have been too dangerous.
那样就太危险了。
But he let himself get talked into it.
但他让自己陷入了困境。
So we were there, in a restaurant, invited by him, to tell the truth.
所以我们受他邀请来到一家餐馆，说出真相。
At that time, sitting in that restaurant, I had my concerns.
当时，坐在那家餐厅里，我有我的担忧。
You didn't feel safe?
你没有安全感吗？
Professor Yes, of course.
教授 是的，当然。
Because I am Shiite.
因为我是什叶派。
For a Shiite to be in Al Adhamiya, it is a danger.
对于什叶派来说，阿德哈米亚是一个危险的地方。
And a big danger.
还有很大的危险。
By the way, my family blamed me.
顺便说一句，我的家人责怪我。
"You go for such a place.
“你去这样的地方。
And alone?
独自一人？
Why should you have gone to such of place, and alone?" I told them, but he's my friend.
你为什么要一个人去这种地方？”我告诉他们了，但他是我的朋友。
Even though, do not trust him.
尽管如此，还是不要相信他。
So the professor is sitting there with his Sunni friend in this pizza restaurant, this is all just a few months ago, and he's trying to keep the conversation on politically neutral subjects.
这位教授正和他的逊尼派朋友坐在这家披萨店里，这一切都发生在几个月前，他试图让谈话保持在政治中立的话题上。
How things are going at the university.
大学里的情况怎么样。
And then an Iraqi army convoy passed in front of the restaurant's window, and his friend watched the convoy pass, and made a comment.
然后一支伊拉克军队的车队从餐厅的窗前经过，他的朋友看着车队经过，发表了评论。
He said, "OK, when the Americans will withdraw their last soldier here from Iraq, we, the National Resistance--"
他说：“好吧，当美国人从伊拉克撤出最后一名士兵时，我们，全国抵抗运动——”
The National Resistance meaning the Sunni insurgency--
民族抵抗运动意味着逊尼派叛乱——
"--will restore things to normalcy." Normalcy for him means that they should be in the lead.
“——会让一切恢复正常。”对他来说，正常意味着他们应该处于领先地位。
Sunnis should be in power.
逊尼派应该掌权。
Like they were in Saddam's day.
就像萨达姆时代一样。
I just, you know, gave him a fake smile, which was not real and OK-- and then he says, "Why don't you claim you are Sunni?
我只是，你知道，给了他一个假笑，这不是真的，也不是可以的——然后他说，“你为什么不声称自己是逊尼派？
Not say I'm Shiite.
不要说我是什叶派。
Because your thoughts are very nice.
因为你的想法非常好。
And your thoughts are in conformity with ours.
而且您的想法与我们的一致。
Always, do not ever say I am Shiite." Now in Iraq there is a freedom of speech, but still, we have to, you know, we have to be careful when speaking.
永远，永远不要说我是什叶派。”现在在伊拉克有言论自由，但我们仍然必须，你知道，我们说话时必须小心。
In Iraq now there is a big division.
现在伊拉克存在很大的分歧。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life distributed by Public Radio International, I'm Ira Glass.
来自 WBEZ 芝加哥，由国际公共广播电台发行的《This American Life》，我是 Ira Glass。
This August, when the United States declared an end to combat operations in Iraq and pulled back its troops, officially lowered the numbers to under 50,000, one of the things you didn't get very much in the coverage is that you didn't hear many Iraqi voices.
今年8月，当美国宣布结束在伊拉克的战斗行动并撤军，正式将人数降至5万以下时，你在报道中没有得到太多信息的一件事是，你没有听到很多伊拉克人的声音。
So Nancy and Larry spent a month in Iraq and talked to lots of people.
因此，南希和拉里在伊拉克呆了一个月，并与很多人交谈。
Because we wanted to understand, with the US pulling back finally, how are things going?
因为我们想了解，随着美国最终撤军，事情进展如何？
How well is the country emerging from the war?
该国摆脱战争的情况如何？
How are people feeling?
人们感觉如何？
What's Iraq going to be like, after us.
我们之后的伊拉克会是什么样子？
That's our show today, in three acts, stay with us.
这就是我们今天的演出，共三幕，请继续观看。
Act One, What Just Happened?
第一幕，刚刚发生了什么？
Lots of us understand it's still kind of a mess in Iraq right now, but the specifics of that mess are a little vague.
我们很多人都知道伊拉克目前仍然一片混乱，但混乱的具体情况却有点模糊。
And, to get a grip on that, let's start with the story of one man, and everything that this one man has seen since the invasion.
为了更好地理解这一点，让我们从一个人的故事开始，以及这个人自入侵以来所看到的一切。
The man's named Abu Abed.
该男子名叫阿布·阿贝德。
Nancy tells this story.
南希讲述了这个故事。
Here's what I knew about Abu Abed when I met him.
以下是我见到阿布·阿贝德时对他的了解。
He was an Iraqi who had fought with the Americans in Baghdad during the surge, and he'd become a small legend.
他是一名伊拉克人，在增兵期间曾在巴格达与美国人并肩作战，他已成为一个小传奇。
The game changer who help the US drive al-Qaeda out of one of the most dangerous neighborhoods in Baghdad.
帮助美国将基地组织赶出巴格达最危险的社区之一的游戏规则改变者。
(SUBJECT) COLONEL DALE KUEHL: Probably the bravest man I ever met.
（主题）戴尔·库尔上校：可能是我见过的最勇敢的人。
This is Colonel Dale Kuehl.
这是戴尔·库尔上校。
The US commander of the area in Baghdad where Abu Abed fought al-Qaeda.
巴格达地区的美军指挥官，阿布·阿贝德在此与基地组织作战。
(SUBJECT) COLONEL DALE KUEHL: He confronted them face to face on the street.
（主题）戴尔·库尔上校：他在街上与他们面对面。
How many people can say they did that?
有多少人可以说他们做到了？
Stood up to al-Qaeda when they were controlling a town like that?
当基地组织控制着这样一个城镇时，你敢于反抗吗？
Where 16 American soldiers died in one month.
一个月内就有 16 名美国士兵死亡。
Two years after helping the US route al-Qaeda in Iraq, Abu Abed was living like a fugitive.
在帮助美国消灭伊拉克基地组织两年后，阿布·阿贝德过着逃亡般的生活。
A suicide bomber tried to kill him in Baghdad, and he and his family fled Iraq for Jordan.
一名自杀式炸弹袭击者试图在巴格达杀死他，他和家人逃离伊拉克前往约旦。
It didn't help.
这没有帮助。
They had to change addresses every couple of months.
他们必须每隔几个月更换一次地址。
Abu Abed was attacked in the street.
阿布·阿贝德在街上遭到袭击。
They were getting death threats from al-Qaeda, including a note handed to his son at school.
他们收到了来自基地组织的死亡威胁，其中包括一张在学校递给他儿子的纸条。
His wife was stabbed during an attempt kidnap their son.
他的妻子在企图绑架他们的儿子时被刺伤。
A few days before I got in touch with him, Abu Abed paid a smuggler $50,000 to get him, his wife, and their two children to Sweden.
在我与他取得联系的前几天，阿布·阿贝德付给走私犯 5 万美元，把他、他的妻子和两个孩子带到了瑞典。
Abu Abed, whose real name is Saad Oraibi Ghaffouri Al-Obeidi, has letters full of praise from American generals saying he should be allowed to come to the US.
阿布·阿贝德（Abu Abed）的真名是萨阿德·奥莱比·加福里·奥贝迪（Saad Oraibi Ghaffouri Al-Obeidi），他收到了美国将军们的盛赞信，称他应该被允许来到美国。
General David Petraeus, former top commander of the war, wrote one for him.
前战争最高指挥官戴维·彼得雷乌斯将军为他写了一封信。
But America turned him down flat, no explanation, even now.
但美国断然拒绝了他，没有任何解释，即使是现在也是如此。
Abu Abed sits on the edge of a couch, unshaven, in cropped khaki pants, khaki shirt, and sandals.
阿布·阿贝德 (Abu Abed) 坐在沙发边上，胡子拉碴，穿着卡其色九分裤、卡其色衬衫和凉鞋。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator We were told to go to the embassy, where I waited in hall, fully expecting to be granted my visa.
[说阿拉伯语] 翻译 我们被告知要去大使馆，我在大厅里等着，满心期待着获得签证。
And they said, you've been denied.
他们说，你被拒绝了。
It's a final decision.
这是最终决定。
I couldn't believe it.
我简直不敢相信。
I felt like I'd just gotten a bullet in the head.
我感觉自己的脑袋刚刚中了一枪。
Sweden is still deciding whether he can stay.
瑞典仍在决定他是否可以留下。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator They asked me, well, here you have these recommendations, highest ranking American military personnel, why aren't you in America?
[说阿拉伯语] 翻译 他们问我，好吧，这里有这些建议，美国最高级别的军事人员，你为什么不在美国？
How haven't they taken you to America?
他们怎么没带你去美国？
And I don't know what to say.
我不知道该说什么。
The Iraq war has had one question at its heart, with an answer that keeps shifting, who is our enemy?
伊拉克战争的核心问题有一个，而且答案不断变化：谁是我们的敌人？
Abu Abed has gone from being a central character in US strategy to an exile sleeping on a friend's floor.
阿布·阿贝德已经从美国战略的核心人物变成了睡在朋友地板上的流亡者。
And those are only two of the roles he's played in the Iraq war.
这只是他在伊拉克战争中扮演的两个角色。
At every turn in the war, every change in US tactics or strategy, Abu Abed has been there, either benefiting or getting pounded.
在战争的每一个转折点，美国战术或战略的每一次变化，阿布·阿贝德都在那里，要么受益，要么受到打击。
He's a living catalog of the seven years of decisions, successes and failures, that have made up this war.
他是七年来的决定、成功和失败的活生生的目录，这些决定构成了这场战争。
During the first phase of the war, Abu Abed was our enemy.
在战争的第一阶段，阿布·阿贝德是我们的敌人。
He was a captain in Saddam Hussein's air force.
他是萨达姆侯赛因空军的一名上尉。
In intelligence, he says.
他说，在情报方面。
His country was being invaded.
他的国家正在被入侵。
Then the war very quickly entered its second phase, the insurgency.
然后战争很快进入第二阶段，即叛乱。
IEDs, car bombs, sniper attacks.
简易爆炸装置、汽车炸弹、狙击手袭击。
The insurgency was led by Sunnis, many of them former Iraqi army officers.
叛乱分子由逊尼派领导，其中许多人是前伊拉克军官。
Abu Abed was a Sunni and a former Iraqi army officer.
阿布·阿贝德是逊尼派人士，也是前伊拉克军官。
But he insists he was never part of that.
但他坚称自己从未参与其中。
He never fought the US.
他从来没有和美国打过仗。
I asked him about it so many times, he got exasperated.
我多次问过他这个问题，他很生气。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator If I wanted to, I could get up and say that I fought the Americans.
[说阿拉伯语] 翻译 如果我愿意，我可以站起来说我与美国人作战。
I could take pride in the fact that I fought the occupation, and I would be able to win many people's respect in Iraq and in the region.
我可以为我为占领而进行的斗争感到自豪，并且我将能够在伊拉克和该地区赢得许多人的尊重。
But it's just not true.
但事实并非如此。
This has been Abu Abed's official position for years, so it's hard for him to back off it.
这是阿布·阿贝德多年来的官方立场，因此他很难放弃这一立场。
But a US army captain, who later befriended him says Abu Abed told him the truth.
但后来与他成为朋友的一名美国陆军上尉说，阿布·阿贝德告诉了他真相。
He did fight the US, he was part of the insurgency.
他确实与美国作战，他是叛乱分子的一部分。
But to make things even more complicated, he was also reaching out to the US, as early as 2004, feeding them information.
但让事情变得更加复杂的是，他早在 2004 年就开始接触美国，向他们提供信息。
Like any smart gambler, he was placing more than one bet.
像任何聪明的赌徒一样，他下了不止一个赌注。
In this early stage of the war, the insurgency, one of the coalition force's main tactics was raid, arrest, interrogate.
在战争初期，针对叛乱，联军的主要战术之一就是突袭、逮捕、审讯。
Which happened to Abu Abed.
阿布·阿贝德就遇到过这种情况。
He was picked up in a neighborhood sweep.
他在扫街时被抓获。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator Soldiers came in, translator told me to put my face to the wall.
[说阿拉伯语] 翻译士兵进来了，翻译告诉我把脸贴在墙上。
I said, "What's going on here?" He said, "Just put your face up against the wall."
我说：“这是怎么回事？”他说：“把脸靠在墙上就可以了。”
I confirmed with another US officer that Abu Abed was arrested early in the war.
我向另一名美国官员证实，阿布·阿贝德在战争初期被捕。
Abu Abed says he was interrogated by American civilians, private contractors.
阿布·阿贝德说，他受到美国平民和私人承包商的审问。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator I was put in a room where I was hung by my arms.
[说阿拉伯语] 翻译 我被关在一个房间里，双臂将我吊起来。
I couldn't sit down, I couldn't rest, all the time with a bag over my head.
我无法坐下，无法休息，头上一直蒙着一个袋子。
For days I was dying of thirst for water.
连续几天我都渴得要命。
They wouldn't let me drink, they would just pour the water on my face.
他们不让我喝水，只是把水倒在我脸上。
They wouldn't let me drink from it.
他们不让我喝它。
Abu Abed says the civilian interrogators held him for around 20 days.
阿布·阿贝德说，平民审讯人员把他关押了大约 20 天。
They were insisting they knew who he was.
他们坚称他们知道他是谁。
They kept calling him a name he remembers as something like "Shaddat," and they wanted him to admit it.
他们一直叫他一个他记得像“Shaddat”之类的名字，他们希望他承认这一点。
Nothing he said could convince them otherwise.
他所说的一切都无法说服他们。
Abu Abed says the torture and interrogation ended when he was suddenly switched to a different room.
阿布·阿贝德说，当他突然被转移到另一个房间时，酷刑和审讯就结束了。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator Given a bed.
[阿拉伯语] 翻译 提供一张床。
Given a TV with a DVD player and DVDs.
提供一台带 DVD 播放机和 DVD 的电视。
They asked me, what kind of movies would you like to watch?
他们问我，你想看什么类型的电影？
I said, I like Sylvester Stalone movies and Arnold Schwarzenegger movies.
我说，我喜欢西尔维斯特·史龙的电影和阿诺·施瓦辛格的电影。
So they brought me a bunch of those movies.
所以他们给我带来了很多这样的电影。
And they said, "Listen, we're very, very sorry.
他们说：“听着，我们非常非常抱歉。
But we have discovered it's true, that you're not Shaddat." They said, "Please, you know, we WERE looking for this person and we realize we made a mistake with you." And I said, "No. I can appreciate that.
但我们发现这是真的，你不是沙达特。”他们说：“拜托，你知道，我们正在寻找这个人，我们意识到我们对你犯了一个错误。”我说：“不。我很欣赏这一点。
I understand what the problem is." And he said, "So we're friends?" And I said, "Yeah, we're friends."
我明白问题出在哪里。”他说：“所以我们是朋友了？”我说：“是的，我们是朋友。”
By 2006, the war had changed again.
到了2006年，战局再次发生变化。
Many Iraqis now refer to that early insurgency as the "Honorable resistance," to distinguish it from what happened next.
许多伊拉克人现在将早期的叛乱称为“光荣的抵抗”，以将其与随后发生的事情区分开来。
Iraq turned into a sectarian war that was basically a gang war.
伊拉克变成了一场宗派战争，基本上是一场帮派战争。
Sunni gangs, often allied with al-Qaeda, versus Shiite gangs.
经常与基地组织结盟的逊尼派帮派对抗什叶派帮派。
And if you were a regular person, trying to live your life and weren't in one of the gangs yourself, the differences between them seemed mainly stylistic.
如果你是一个普通人，努力过自己的生活，并且自己没有加入帮派，那么他们之间的差异似乎主要是风格上的。
One man told us, "The way you know al-Qaeda is coming up to your house to kill you, is that their addressed like ordinary guys, and shouting "Allah hu akbar." The way you know a Shiite militia is pulling up to your house, is that they're dressed all in black, and shouting the names of Shiite saints.
一名男子告诉我们，“你知道基地组织要来你家杀你的方式是，他们像普通人一样称呼，并高喊“阿拉胡阿克巴尔。”你知道什叶派民兵来到你家的方式是，他们穿着一身黑衣服，高喊着什叶派圣徒的名字。
Abu Abed's neighborhood in Baghdad, Amiriyah, is a Sunni stronghold.
阿布·阿贝德位于巴格达的阿米里亚社区是逊尼派据点。
A place where members of Saddam's military got nice houses and had lived well back in the day.
萨达姆军队成员在那里拥有漂亮的房子，并且在当时过着很好的生活。
Some Sunnis in Abu Abed's neighborhood joined forces with al-Qaeda against their common enemies.
阿布·阿贝德附近的一些逊尼派人士与基地组织联手对抗共同的敌人。
The Shiite militias and the Americans.
什叶派民兵和美国人。
In fact, at the height of its power, al-Qaeda declared Amiriyah its capital.
事实上，在其势力鼎盛时期，基地组织曾宣布阿米里亚为首都。
They appointed their own finance minister, education minister.
他们任命了自己的财政部长、教育部长。
The new Iraqi government was desperate.
伊拉克新政府陷入绝望。
2006, we virtually lost control over Baghdad.
2006年，我们实际上失去了对巴格达的控制。
This is Saad Motallebi, an adviser in the current Iraqi government.
我是萨阿德·莫塔莱比，现任伊拉克政府顾问。
We were completely surrounded.
我们被完全包围了。
They had control of many areas in Baghdad, and the Americans didn't know what to do.
他们控制了巴格达的很多地区，美国人不知道该怎么办。
And 2006, 2007, we were seriously worried.
2006年、2007年，我们非常担心。
But then something changed.
但后来事情发生了变化。
People started to hate al-Qaeda.
人们开始憎恨基地组织。
In Amiriyah, al-Qaeda kidnapped and brutally killed an older Christian couple who everyone liked.
在阿米里亚，基地组织绑架并残酷杀害了一对人见人爱的老年基督徒夫妇。
Abu Abed saw a friend whipped in the street.
阿布·阿贝德看到一个朋友在街上被鞭打。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator They would whip a person, strip him of his clothes, and then whip him either with a whip or a stick.
[说阿拉伯语]翻译 他们会鞭打一个人，剥光他的衣服，然后用鞭子或棍子鞭打他。
Cut off a person's hand, they would cut out a person's tongue.
砍掉一个人的手，就会割掉一个人的舌头。
They forced every female teacher to, if she wasn't wearing a hijab, she'd be executed.
他们强迫每个女老师，如果不戴头巾，就会被处决。
Al-Qaeda went into Iraq seeing themselves as liberators, overplayed their hand, and alienated people.
基地组织进入伊拉克时将自己视为解放者，夸大其词，疏远了人民。
And that's when the American forces and the Iraqi government got their big break.
就在那时，美军和伊拉克政府取得了重大突破。
The sons of Iraq, also sometimes called the Awakening or the Sunni Awakening.
伊拉克之子，有时也称为觉醒或逊尼派觉醒。
(SUBJECT) COLONEL DALE KUEHL: The Sons of Iraq was a very decentralized organization.
（主题）戴尔·库尔上校：伊拉克之子是一个非常分散的组织。
In fact, calling it an organization is probably not the right way.
事实上，称其为组织可能并不正确。
This is Colonel Kuehl again, whose area of command included Amiriyah.
这又是库尔上校，他的指挥区域包括阿米里亚。
Before the Sons of Iraq showed up, the US had been focusing, for years, on a failed plan, recruiting and training the Iraqi army and police to get them able to secure the country.
在“伊拉克之子”出现之前，美国多年来一直专注于一项失败的计划，招募和训练伊拉克军队和警察，让他们能够保卫国家安全。
When they stand up, we will stand down.
当他们站起来时，我们就站起来。
It wasn't working.
它不起作用。
In fact, it was making things worse.
事实上，这让事情变得更糟。
The police force we were building, which is overwhelmingly Shiite, had pockets of Shiite militias who would kidnap and kill people, often without bothering to change out of their uniforms.
我们正在建设的警察部队绝大多数是什叶派，还有一些什叶派民兵，他们会绑架和杀人，而且往往懒得换掉制服。
Abu Abed says two of his brothers were killed by a Shiite militia.
阿布·阿贝德说，他的两个兄弟被什叶派民兵杀害。
In Amiriyah, the Sons of Iraq started in late May, 2007, when Colonel Kuehl got a phone call from a local leader, a Sheikh and an Imam, who Kuehl had chewed out 10 days earlier, following an IED attack on his men.
在阿米里亚，“伊拉克之子”于 2007 年 5 月下旬开始，当时库尔上校接到了当地一位领导人、一名酋长和一名伊玛目打来的电话。十天前，库尔在手下遭到简易爆炸装置袭击后，曾对他们进行过斥责。
Kuehl had told them, "You have to help us fight al-Qaeda."
库尔告诉他们，“你们必须帮助我们打击基地组织。”
(SUBJECT) COLONEL DALE KUEHL: Calls me, it was in the middle of the night, and says, "Hey, we're going after al-Qaeda tomorrow." And I'm like, you're going to do what?
（主题）戴尔·库尔上校：半夜打电话给我，说：“嘿，我们明天要去追捕基地组织。”我想，你要做什么？
He says, we're going after al-Qaeda tomorrow, we just want you to stay away.
他说，我们明天将追捕基地组织，我们只是希望你远离。
We just want you to stay out here.
我们只是希望你留在这儿。
And I said Sheikh, I can't do that.
我说谢赫，我不能那样做。
I can't leave the neighborhood.
我不能离开街区。
We argued for about 20 minutes.
我们争论了大约20分钟。
I said, give me the intelligence, we'll go after it.
我说，给我情报，我们去追查它。
He said, "No, it won't work.
他说：“不，这行不通。
We've got to do it ourselves."
我们必须自己做。”
We will shoot at you.
我们会向你开枪。
(SUBJECT) COLONEL DALE KUEHL: We will shoot you.
（主题）戴尔·库尔上校：我们会向你开枪。
I think literally I said, "We'll kill you." He said, OK.
我想我确实是在说：“我们会杀了你。”他说，好吧。
And then I wished him luck.
然后我祝他好运。
What followed was a quick initial victory and then a furious counter attack by al-Qaeda.
接下来是最初的快速胜利，然后是基地组织的猛烈反击。
The Imam called Kuehl for help, and the US forces went in and pushed al-Qaeda back, and then--
伊玛目向库尔求助，美军介入并击退了基地组织，然后——
(SUBJECT) COLONEL DALE KUEHL: That's when the negotiation started.
（主题）DALE KUEHL 上校：谈判就是从那时开始的。
On how are we going to do this?
我们要如何做到这一点？
I got a call from another Imam, I would say who is probably the most influential in the neighborhood, and he said, "OK, there's someone that you need to meet." And so that's when I met Abu Abed.
我接到另一位伊玛目的电话，我想说他可能是附近最有影响力的人，他说：“好吧，你需要见一个人。”就在那时我遇到了阿布·阿贝德。
One of the strangest experiences of my life.
我一生中最奇怪的经历之一。
Because I'm in there with guys who look like insurgents.
因为我和那些看起来像叛乱分子的人在一起。
It was out at the mosque we met.
那是在我们遇见的清真寺里。
And he was exhausted and the first meeting didn't go so well.
而且他已经筋疲力尽了，第一次会议进行得并不顺利。
He was making demands, that I'm like, "nope, we ain't going to do that."
他提出要求，我说，“不，我们不会那样做。”
What were his demands?
他的要求是什么？
(SUBJECT) COLONEL DALE KUEHL: He was saying, if you just let us do what we need to do, we'll clear this place out.
（主题）戴尔·库尔上校：他说，如果你让我们做我们需要做的事情，我们就会清理这个地方。
Basically free rein to take care of business.
基本上可以自由支配生意。
That was a bit much.
那有点太多了。
Their point to me was that the US Army and the Iraqi Army could not do it without their help.
他们对我说，如果没有他们的帮助，美国陆军和伊拉克军队就无法做到这一点。
And it was a humbling experience, someone telling me, what do you mean you know I'm--
这是一次令人羞愧的经历，有人告诉我，你知道我是什么意思——
I'm the US Army.
我是美国陆军。
(SUBJECT) COLONEL DALE KUEHL: I'm the US Army, I can do anything.
（主题）戴尔·库尔上校：我是美国陆军，我可以做任何事情。
But he was right.
但他是对的。
We could not do it alone.
我们无法独自做到这一点。
And this was Abu Abed saying this to you?
这是阿布·阿贝德对你说的吗？
(SUBJECT) COLONEL DALE KUEHL: That's correct.
（主题）DALE KUEHL 上校： 是的。
Each Sons of Iraq group developed its own working arrangement with the US military in the area.
每个伊拉克之子组织都与该地区的美军制定了自己的工作安排。
When Abu Abed and Kuehl joined forces, they signed a memorandum of agreement, which was also signed by the Iraqi army commander in the area.
阿布·阿贝德和库尔联手时签署了一份协议备忘录，该地区的伊拉克军队指挥官也签署了该备忘录。
The deal was Abu Abed and his men had to coordinate their operations with the US military and the Iraqi Army.
这笔交易是阿布·阿贝德和他的手下必须与美军和伊拉克军队协调行动。
No going off on their own.
不会自行离开。
Anyone they detained had to be turned over to the US, at first within 24 hours, later within two hours.
他们拘留的任何人都必须被移交给美国，起初是在 24 小时内，后来是在两小时内。
No torture.
没有酷刑。
All the fighters had to be fingerprinted and given and eye scan.
所有战士都必须接受指纹采集和眼部扫描。
In return, Abu Abed got an office, four pick-up trucks.
作为回报，阿布·阿贝德得到了一间办公室、四辆皮卡车。
They all got uniforms.
他们都穿着制服。
The US paid them about $300 a month, and promised to help them get jobs later.
美国每月向他们支付约300美元，并承诺稍后帮助他们找到工作。
Abu Abed commanded a shifting group of men that, at one point, numbered several hundred.
阿布·阿贝德指挥着一支流动的队伍，人数一度达到数百人。
Overall, the Sons of Iraq was a total of 103,000 people countrywide at its height.
总体而言，伊拉克之子在鼎盛时期在全国共有 103,000 名成员。
A huge boost to the American forces, who numbered 170,000 in 2007.
这对2007年美军人数为17万的美军来说是一个巨大的推动。
This is the most successful phase of the Iraq war.
这是伊拉克战争最成功的阶段。
The part we've come to shorthand as the surge.
我们将这部分速记为激增。
What this meant in Abu Abed's case was that the same men who'd fought the Americans, who've been picked up and tortured by coalition forces three years earlier, had reached out to the US military and was now working with them every day.
在阿布·阿贝德的案件中，这意味着那些三年前曾与美国人作战、被联军抓起来并遭受酷刑的人，现在已经向美国军方伸出了援手，并且现在每天都在与他们合作。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Nancy Updike You're having a soda on top of a US tank.
[阿拉伯语] 南希·厄普代克（Nancy Updike） 您正在美国坦克的顶部喝苏打水。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Nancy Updike Abu Abed has dozens of photographing from his time fighting alongside the US military.
[阿拉伯语] 南希·厄普代克·阿布·阿贝德 (Nancy Updike Abu Abed) 拥有数十张与美军并肩作战时的照片。
The photos were among the few things he insisted on bringing with him when the family was smuggled to Sweden.
当全家偷渡到瑞典时，这些照片是他坚持随身携带的少数物品之一。
In the photos, Abu Abed is leaner than he is now, with a mustache.
照片中的阿布·阿贝德比现在更瘦，留着小胡子。
He looks relaxed and energized.
他看起来很放松，充满活力。
A man whose talents are in demand.
一个需要才华的人。
The more he shuffles through the photos, the happier he gets, telling war stories.
他翻阅照片越多，讲述战争故事就越开心。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator There was a time when we went right into a al-Qaeda hide out, and bullets were flying from every direction, flying at us.
[说阿拉伯语] 翻译 有一次，我们直接走进了基地组织的藏身之处，子弹从四面八方飞来，朝我们飞来。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Nancy Updike Every American we talked to who fought with Abu Abed said he was an incredible soldier.
[阿拉伯语]南希·厄普代克 我们采访过的每个与阿布·阿贝德并肩作战的美国人都说他是一位不可思议的士兵。
One, Captain Brian Weightman, described his as fluid.
其中一位，布莱恩·威特曼上尉，形容他的能力是流动的。
That 1% who can remain calm in the middle of hair-raising chaos, able to inspire men, Weightman said, including him.
威特曼说，那 1% 的人能够在令人毛骨悚然的混乱中保持冷静，能够激励男人，包括他自己。
Some Americans called him a brother.
一些美国人称他为兄弟。
Once the Americans embraced the Sons of Iraq, it forced the Iraqi Army to work with them.
一旦美国人拥抱了“伊拉克之子”，就迫使伊拉克军队与他们合作。
And in Amiriyah, the three groups together were an unstoppable force against al-Qaeda.
在阿米里亚，这三个团体共同构成了对抗基地组织的不可阻挡的力量。
In the midst of this triumphant military campaign, in which Abu Abed was a crucial partner, trusted every day with American lives, two US captains Abu Abed worked with came to him and said they'd been told to take him to some meeting with some people.
在这场胜利的军事战役中，阿布·阿贝德是重要的合作伙伴，每天都对美国人的生活充满信任，两名与阿布·阿贝德共事的美国上尉找到他，说他们被告知要带他去见一些人。
So Abu Abed went to the meeting, not thinking much of it.
于是阿布·阿贝德就去参加了会议，没有多想。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] (SUBJECT) TRANSLATOR: And they open the door, and I saw this group of people that said they wanted to meet me.
[阿拉伯语]（主题）翻译：他们打开门，我看到这群人说他们想见我。
And I instantly new who they were.
我立刻就知道了他们是谁。
I knew exactly who they were.
我清楚地知道他们是谁。
It was the group of civilians who had interrogated him in 2004.
正是2004年审问他的那群平民。
The same people he says beat him, hung him from his arms, and held him captive for as long as they wanted.
他说，这些人殴打他，把他吊在怀里，想囚禁多久就囚禁他。
Those same people were now smiling at him, and saying how glad they were to see them.
那些人现在正对他微笑，说他们很高兴见到他们。
Abu Abed tried to stay calm.
阿布·阿贝德试图保持冷静。
Translator They asked me if I remember them, and I said, "No, I don't know who you are.
他们问我是否还记得他们，我说：“不，我不知道你是谁。
I don't remember you." Because I was so hurt I said I don't remember you, even though, of course, I did.
我不记得你了。”因为我太伤心了，所以我说我不记得你了，尽管我当然记得。
And they said, "Well, we forget the past, right?
他们说：“好吧，我们忘记了过去，对吧？
We're friends now.
我们现在是朋友了。
Are you sure you don't remember us?" "Yeah, I don't know who you are," I said.
你确定不记得我们了？” “是的，我不知道你是谁，”我说。
Then they opened up a laptop with a picture of me, and they said, "well, who's this?" And that picture of me with a number across my chest, the number of me when I was captive.
然后他们打开一台笔记本电脑，上面有我的照片，他们说：“好吧，这是谁？”还有那张我胸前挂着号码的照片，那是我被俘虏时的号码。
I spoke with one of the captains who sat in the room, not really understanding what was going on, who these people were to Abu Abed.
我与坐在房间里的一位船长交谈，他不太明白发生了什么事，这些人对阿布·阿贝德来说是谁。
The captain said there were other photos on the laptop, too, like a book of mug shots.
船长说笔记本电脑上还有其他照片，比如一本照片集。
Fighters the US was looking for, and the interrogators seem to be asking Abu Abed if he knew anything about them.
美国正在寻找战士，审讯人员似乎在询问阿布·阿贝德是否了解他们的情况。
But all Abu Abed could focus on was his own picture.
但阿布·阿贝德只能关注他自己的照片。
Why did they show that to him?
他们为什么向他展示这个？
Either it was a threat, help us or else, or maybe to the interrogators the torture of three years earlier was such ancient history that they didn't think it would matter.
要么是威胁，要么帮助我们，要么对审讯者来说，三年前的酷刑已经是古老的历史了，他们认为这并不重要。
That was yesterday, we're friends now.
那是昨天的事，现在我们是朋友了。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] (SUBJECT) TRANSLATOR: I started asking myself all kinds of questions.
[阿拉伯语]（主语）翻译：我开始问自己各种各样的问题。
All kinds of questions were spinning around in my head.
各种各样的问题在我的脑海里盘旋。
I wanted to know how did they see me?
我想知道他们怎么看我？
What was I in their eyes?
他们眼中的我是什么？
Was I a terrorist?
我是恐怖分子吗？
Is that how they perceived me?
他们就是这样看待我的吗？
I feel incredibly wronged.
我感到无比的委屈。
But I didn't know what the point was.
但我不知道重点是什么。
It's still not clear what the point was.
目前还不清楚重点是什么。
Except that Abu Abed got whipsawed by two different phases of the war, the raid and interrogate phase, and the brotherhood phase.
除了阿布·阿贝德在战争的两个不同阶段——突袭和审讯阶段以及兄弟情谊阶段——遭受了巨大的打击。
The Sons of Iraq were widely loathed by the Iraqi government and its security forces.
伊拉克之子受到伊拉克政府及其安全部队的普遍憎恶。
And they didn't keep their loathing to themselves.
他们并没有将自己的厌恶隐藏起来。
And Iraqi Army officer accused Abu Abed of killing one of his relatives.
伊拉克军官指控阿布·阿贝德杀害了他的一名亲戚。
The US investigated, but could never confirmed that the man who'd allegedly been killed had ever existed.
美国进行了调查，但无法证实据称被杀的男子是否存在。
Other accusations against Abu Abed cropped up, some are still out there, unproven, but impossible to refute-- That he killed 35 Shiite civilians, that he beat an innocent man to death.
针对阿布·阿贝德的其他指控也随之出现，有些仍然存在，未经证实，但无法反驳——他杀害了 35 名什叶派平民，他殴打了一名无辜者。
And then in November of 2007, a story came out in a British newspaper, The Guardian , that starred Abu Abed in the worst way.
2007 年 11 月，英国《卫报》刊登了一篇以阿布·阿贝德 (Abu Abed) 为主角的故事。
The reporter spent three days with him and painted a portrait of an arrogant, power hungry thug, kicking and slapping a man outside his house for a supposed insult, screaming at the security detail for Iraq's vice president, "Do you know who I am?
记者花了三天时间与他相处，描绘了一个傲慢、渴望权力的暴徒的形象，他在自家门外对一名男子拳打脚踢，以侮辱他，并对伊拉克副总统的安保人员尖叫，“你知道我是谁吗？
Here I rule.
这里由我统治。
I am the commander of Amariya.
我是阿玛丽亚的指挥官。
Did you dare to show your faces here before I kicked al-Qaeda out?" Also, interrogating a child about an alleged weapons cache.
在我把基地组织赶出去之前，你敢在这里露面吗？”此外，还就涉嫌武器藏匿的情况审问一名儿童。
The lingering image from the article is Abu Abed's men holding him back as he tries to put his gun in the child's mouth.
文章中挥之不去的画面是阿布·阿贝德试图将枪放入孩子嘴里时，他的手下将他拦住。
(SUBJECT) COLONEL DALE KUEHL: I did not believe that that story was truthful.
（主题）戴尔·库尔上校：我不相信那个故事是真实的。
I thought it was embellished.
我以为是装饰过的
Could I be wrong?
难道我错了？
Sure.
当然。
Colonel Kuehl published a long rebuttal to the story, saying the overall picture of Amiriyah it showed was wrong.
库尔上校发表了一篇长文反驳这个故事，称它所展示的阿米莉亚的整体形象是错误的。
The Sons of Iraq seemingly running rampant, with little or no supervision by the US military or the Iraqi military.
伊拉克之子似乎猖獗，几乎没有受到美军或伊拉克军方的监督。
His rebuttal did not, however, refute any of the specific incidents the story described.
然而，他的反驳并没有反驳故事描述的任何具体事件。
In fact, he concedes that some of them happened, though he doesn't believe Abu Abe put a gun in a child's mouth.
事实上，他承认其中一些事情确实发生过，尽管他不相信阿布·阿贝把枪放在一个孩子的嘴里。
When the story came out, Kuehl was furious at Abu Abed.
故事曝光后，库尔对阿布·阿贝德感到愤怒。
He believed Abu Abed's vanity, his desire to build up his own reputation as a tough guy, was putting the entire Sons of Iraq project at risk.
他认为阿布·阿贝德的虚荣心和他想树立自己硬汉形象的愿望，正在将整个伊拉克之子项目置于危险之中。
He called Abu Abed in for a talk.
他叫阿布·阿贝德过来谈话。
(SUBJECT) COLONEL DALE KUEHL: I was telling him, listen, I might have to remove you.
（主题）戴尔·库尔上校：我告诉他，听着，我可能不得不解雇你。
Why didn't you?
你为什么不呢？
(SUBJECT) COLONEL DALE KUEHL: People were very willing to report bad things going.
（主题）戴尔·库尔上校：人们非常愿意报告发生的坏事。
Whether it was Abu Abed or somebody else.
无论是阿布·阿贝德还是其他人。
In this case, I got nothing.
在这种情况下，我什么也没得到。
And so, why I didn't believe the story, and again, could I be wrong?
那么，为什么我不相信这个故事呢？再说一次，我会不会错了？
Sure.
当然。
But I just didn't have the evidence here other than the story.
但除了这个故事之外，我没有其他证据。
And am I right or wrong?
我是对还是错？
I don't know.
我不知道。
And there was one time we actually considered, is he the right guy for this?
有一次我们真正考虑过，他是做这件事的合适人选吗？
What happened?
发生了什么？
(SUBJECT) COLONEL DALE KUEHL: We came to the conclusion that this is the right guy.
（主题）戴尔·库尔上校：我们得出的结论是，这是正确的人选。
This is Saad Motallebi again, the government adviser who talked earlier about how he worried they might lose control over Baghdad.
这又是萨阿德·莫塔莱比，这位政府顾问早些时候谈到了他如何担心他们可能会失去对巴格达的控制。
He's talking about the Sons of Iraq, they were the crocodile he saw.
他说的是伊拉克之子，他们就是他看到的鳄鱼。
Armed men, not under government control, roaming the streets.
不受政府控制的武装人员在街上游荡。
The US military had a solution to that.
美国军方对此有一个解决方案。
They thought the Iraqi government should absorb most of the Sons of Iraq into their security forces, the police and the army.
他们认为伊拉克政府应该吸收大部分伊拉克之子加入他们的安全部队、警察和军队。
Make those mostly Shiite forces represent the country as a whole, by adding Sunnis.
通过加入逊尼派，让那些以什叶派为主的势力代表整个国家。
But to many in the Iraqi government, the Sons of Iraq were insurgents, period.
但对于伊拉克政府的许多人来说，伊拉克之子就是叛乱分子。
And its leaders like Abu Abed were former officers from Saddam Hussein's army.
像阿布·阿贝德这样的领导人是萨达姆·侯赛因军队的前军官。
(SUBJECT) SAAD MOTALLEBI: The insurgency, they didn't fight for the new Iraq.
（主题）SAAD MOTALLEBI：叛乱分子，他们不是为了新的伊拉克而战。
That's the way we saw it.
我们就是这样看的。
They fought for control over the region that they had previously control over.
他们为争夺他们先前控制的地区的控制权而战。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] (SUBJECT) TRANSLATOR: The way that the government dealt with us was to just slowly squeeze us out.
[阿拉伯语]（主语）翻译：政府对待我们的方式就是慢慢地把我们挤出去。
Abu Abed says he and other Sons of Iraq wanted to form a police force in Amiriyah.
阿布·阿贝德说，他和其他伊拉克之子希望在阿米里亚组建一支警察部队。
He says they were prevented by the government.
他说他们被政府阻止了。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator They appointed a police officer to lead the police station in our area, who was from the south.
[说阿拉伯语] 翻译 他们任命了一名来自南方的警察来领导我们地区的警察局。
Meaning Shiite.
意思是什叶派。
Translator And then they appointed his deputy, and then they appointed others who would work under him, all to make sure that we were squeezed out and that we wouldn't have any official capacity.
翻译然后他们任命了他的副手，然后他们任命了其他在他手下工作的人，所有这些都是为了确保我们被排挤，我们不会有任何官方身份。
The Iraqi government essentially won this argument, in part because the US was eager to move on to a new phase of the war, the phase it's still in-- achieving political stability so the US forces can leave.
伊拉克政府基本上赢得了这场争论，部分原因是美国渴望进入战争的新阶段，即目前的阶段——实现政治稳定，以便美军可以撤离。
What this meant for Abu Abed is that when he talked to US military guys, there was a new catch phrase, Iraqi sovereignty.
这对阿布·阿贝德来说意味着，当他与美军人员交谈时，出现了一个新的口号：伊拉克主权。
Meaning, if the Iraqi government wants to put someone else in the police in this area, instead of you and your guys, that's their business and we're not going to intervene.
这意味着，如果伊拉克政府想在该地区派其他人代替你和你的人担任警察，那是他们的事，我们不会干预。
He says this was different from what the US military had been saying to him before this point.
他说这与美国军方此前对他说的话不同。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator One of the things that they said often was that you will have a place in the new Iraq.
[说阿拉伯语] 翻译 他们经常说的一件事是，你将在新的伊拉克占有一席之地。
That they won't deal with you on a sectarian basis, that you will be included in this new leadership.
他们不会以宗派的方式对待你，你将被纳入这个新的领导层。
And did you believe them that that was possible?
你相信他们那是可能的吗？
And they could deliver that?
他们能做到吗？
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator At the time?
[说阿拉伯语] 当时的翻译？
Yes.
是的。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator Why did I believe it?
[说阿拉伯语] 翻译 我为什么相信它？
Because this was the force that brought down the previous regime in Iraq.
因为这是推翻伊拉克前政权的力量。
This was the force that created the Iraqi government, that established the Iraqi army.
这就是创建伊拉克政府、建立伊拉克军队的力量。
Of course I believed it.
我当然相信了。
The more successful the Sons of Iraq were in neutralizing al-Qaeda, the less necessary they became.
伊拉克之子在压制基地组织方面越成功，他们的必要性就越小。
They made themselves obsolete.
他们让自己变得过时了。
Kuehl saw this coming and tried to warn Abu Abed.
库尔看到了这一点，并试图警告阿布·阿贝德。
Later, Kuehl led a big effort to try and get him to the US, rallied a network of churches and people and vouched for Abu Abed personally.
后来，库尔做出了巨大的努力，试图把他带到美国，召集了教会和民众的网络，并亲自为阿布·阿贝德提供担保。
But Kuehl was blunt with him when they were recruiting for the new police force in Amiriyah.
但当他们为阿米里亚的新警察部队招募人员时，库尔对他直言不讳。
(SUBJECT) COLONEL DALE KUEHL: Did not really see him as a serious candidate to be the head of the security force.
（主题）戴尔·库尔上校：并没有真正将他视为安全部队负责人的认真候选人。
You didn't?
你没有？
(SUBJECT) COLONEL DALE KUEHL: I didn't.
（主题）DALE KUEHL 上校：我没有。
And we were actually trying to figure out who would be the right guy to do that, so.
我们实际上是想找出谁是做这件事的合适人选，所以。
Just so I understand fully, this is somebody you'd been working with for months, leading this group, trusting him, the bravest man you ever met, why not him?
我完全理解，这是一个与你一起工作了几个月的人，领导着这个团队，信任他，你见过的最勇敢的人，为什么不是他呢？
(SUBJECT) COLONEL DALE KUEHL: It goes back to what I think he was good at.
（主题）戴尔·库尔上校：这可以追溯到我认为他擅长的事情。
I think he was a great fighter.
我认为他是一位伟大的战士。
I think he was great at-- very charismatic.
我认为他很擅长——非常有魅力。
I think he was the right guy to go fight al-Qaeda.
我认为他是打击基地组织的合适人选。
I did not think he was the right guy and the right temperament to lead a police force of a community like that.
我不认为他是领导这样一个社区的警察部队的合适人选和合适的性格。
He's a hot head.
他头脑发热。
Meaning what?
意思是什么？
(SUBJECT) COLONEL DALE KUEHL: He has a temper.
（主题）戴尔·库尔上校：他有脾气。
And it has caused him some problems that he is still having to deal with.
这给他带来了一些他仍然需要处理的问题。
We would not have rooted al-Qaeda out there without a guy like him, but I think there was a transition that needed to happen.
如果没有像他这样的人，我们就不可能根除基地组织，但我认为需要进行一个转变。
Somebody that had a probably better temperament, that could deal with the politics of just being the leader of a community.
性格可能更好的人，能够处理作为社区领导者的政治问题。
General Petraeus added a handwritten note to hit type-written letter of recommendation supporting Abu Abed's application to the US.
彼得雷乌斯将军在打印的推荐信中添加了一张手写便条，支持阿布·阿贝德申请美国。
The notes says, "He risked everything to stand against al-Qaeda in Iraq, and he's paid a heavy price.
笔记中写道：“他冒着一切风险，在伊拉克对抗基地组织，并付出了沉重的代价。
We should help him." He underlined should.
我们应该帮助他。”他强调应该。
A lot of Iraqis have helped the US and paid a heavy price.
很多伊拉克人帮助了美国，也付出了惨重的代价。
And we've turned many of them away for any blemish, or seeming blemish.
我们已经将其中的许多人因为任何瑕疵或看似瑕疵而拒之门外。
And who has more blemishes on his record than a fighter?
谁的记录上的瑕疵比战士还多呢？
The Sons of Iraq, our alliance with them, was a big success for us.
伊拉克之子，我们与他们的联盟，对我们来说是一个巨大的成功。
And this is the mess that goes along with it.
这就是随之而来的混乱。
Abu Abed's old neighborhood, Amiriyah, today is mostly calm, but bleak.
阿布·阿贝德 (Abu Abed) 的老邻居阿米莉亚 (Amiriyah) 今天大多平静，但也很荒凉。
Some of the buildings are pitted by gunfire and crumbling from bombings.
一些建筑物因炮火而坑坑洼洼，并因爆炸而倒塌。
There isn't a Sons of Iraq leader in Amiriyah anymore.
阿米里亚不再有伊拉克之子领导人了。
Abu Abed's successor was blown up by a suicide bomber a few weeks before we got to Iraq.
在我们到达伊拉克前几周，阿布·阿贝德的继任者被自杀式炸弹袭击者炸死。
One of the few Sons of Iraq foot soldiers left in Amiriyah was working at the check point into the neighborhood.
留在阿米里亚的少数伊拉克之子步兵之一正在附近的检查站工作。
He hadn't been paid in two months.
他已经两个月没有拿到工资了。
US and Iraqi officials say the Iraqi government has stalled on services in Amiriyah and others Sunni areas, in part to undermine the popularity of Sons of Iraq leaders.
美国和伊拉克官员表示，伊拉克政府已停止在阿米里亚和其他逊尼派地区提供服务，部分原因是为了削弱伊拉克之子领导人的声望。
The US has been pushing reconciliation in Iraq, saying it's key to stabilizing the country.
美国一直在推动伊拉克和解，称这是稳定该国的关键。
Trying to get Sunnis and Shiites, plus the Kurds, to work together and share power.
试图让逊尼派和什叶派以及库尔德人合作并分享权力。
It's not working.
它不起作用。
The Chief of the US reconciliation program in Baghdad told me.
美国驻巴格达和解项目负责人告诉我。
Sons of Iraq, especially its leaders, have been arrested.
伊拉克之子，特别是其领导人，已被逮捕。
Some are being killed, sometimes with their families, by al-Qaeda, by other rivals or enemies.
有些人被基地组织、其他竞争对手或敌人杀害，有时与家人一起被杀害。
Some, like Abu Abed, have fled.
有些人，如阿布·阿贝德，已经逃离。
There's an arrest warrant out for him in Iraq now.
现在伊拉克对他发出了逮捕令。
Some US officials believe the charges are politically motivated.
一些美国官员认为这些指控是出于政治动机。
The cold fact is that Iraq may not need reconciliation to have stability, depending on how brutal the Iraqi government is willing to be, and we're willing to let them be.
冷酷的事实是，伊拉克可能不需要和解来实现稳定，这取决于伊拉克政府愿意采取多么残酷的手段，而我们也愿意听之任之。
If they put enough Sunnis in prison, or drive them out of the country, while welcoming the few they do feel able to work with, the Shia majority might be able to run the country without ever reconciling with the Sunnis.
如果他们把足够多的逊尼派关进监狱，或者把他们赶出这个国家，同时欢迎少数他们认为能够合作的人，什叶派多数派也许能够在不与逊尼派和解的情况下管理这个国家。
Which might be fine with us, if Iraq were our only war.
如果伊拉克是我们唯一的战争，这对我们来说可能没问题。
In Afghanistan, Afghan fighters have raised the issue of what's become of the the Sons of Iraq in meetings with the US, according to an American officer who served in Afghanistan.
据一名在阿富汗服役的美国军官透露，在阿富汗，阿富汗武装分子在与美国的会面中提出了伊拉克之子的遭遇问题。
Everywhere we want local fighters to help us, they're going to ask themselves, how will we end up?
无论我们在哪里希望当地战士帮助我们，他们都会问自己，我们的结局会如何？
Nancy Updike.
南希·厄普代克。
Coming up, what is that crushed garbage under foot everywhere in Iraq cities?
接下来，伊拉克城市里随处可见的脚下压碎的垃圾是什么？
And other things that nobody has told you about life in Iraq today.
还有其他一些没有人告诉过你的关于当今伊拉克生活的事情。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.
一分钟后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life , I'm Ira Glass.
这就是美国生活，我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today on our show, Iraq After Us.
今天我们的节目《伊拉克追随我们》。
Reporter Larry Kaplow and one of our producers, Nancy Updike, spent a month in Iraq this August as US troops were ending their combat mission.
今年八月，当美军结束战斗任务时，记者拉里·卡普洛和我们的制片人之一南希·厄普代克在伊拉克呆了一个月。
And they traveled around the country interviewing many, many more people than we will be able to fit into one hour today.
他们走遍了全国采访了很多很多人，比我们今天一小时所能容纳的人数要多得多。
To try to understand how things are going in Iraq, in this half hour of the show we are going to hear two more stories, two more acts from the stories that they gathered.
为了试图了解伊拉克的情况如何，在这半个小时的节目中，我们将听到另外两个故事，他们收集的故事中的另外两个故事。
And we are going to go straight from one to the other.
我们将直接从一个到另一个。
And we're going to start with Act Two, Politics as Usual.
我们将从第二幕“政治如常”开始。
One of the biggest political challenges facing Iraq today has to do with something that's so basic, and that is that for decades the country was run by a dictator.
伊拉克今天面临的最大政治挑战之一与一个非常基本的问题有关，那就是这个国家几十年来一直由独裁者统治。
And even before that dictator, before Saddam Hussein, there were other strongmen, and there were kings.
甚至在那个独裁者之前，在萨达姆·侯赛因之前，还有其他强人，还有国王。
Government in Iraq has basically meant somebody at the top imposing order and control on everybody below.
伊拉克政府基本上意味着高层对下面的每个人施加命令和控制。
And the United States has tried to convince Iraqis that democracy means distributing that power.
美国试图让伊拉克人相信民主意味着分配权力。
Sending it out of Baghdad, out of these big, central ministries, and sending it all over the country.
从巴格达、从这些大型中央部委发送出去，然后发送到全国各地。
Giving political power to local mayors, and newly formed provincial councils.
赋予地方市长和新成立的省议会政治权力。
Iraq is divided into a bunch of provinces that are kind of like states.
伊拉克分为许多类似于国家的省份。
But Iraqis are not used to that.
但伊拉克人对此并不习惯。
They're used to top down.
他们习惯了自上而下。
Nancy and Larry went to Diyala Province, just north of Baghdad, to see whether the old mentality has changed at all.
南希和拉里前往巴格达以北的迪亚拉省，看看旧的心态是否已经改变。
They started at the bottom rung in a top down government-- the mayor's office in Diyala's capital city Baqubah.
他们从自上而下的政府的最底层开始——迪亚拉首都巴古巴的市长办公室。
Larry tells this story.
拉里讲述了这个故事。
(HOST) LARRY KAPLOW: The mayor's office is behind blast walls and barbed wire.
（主持人）拉里·卡普洛：市长办公室位于防爆墙和铁丝网后面。
And it's not really a municipal building, it's basically a large house at the end of a residential street.
它并不是真正的市政建筑，它基本上是住宅街道尽头的一栋大房子。
Inside there's a short dusty hallway with scuffed walls, in a small foyer with a few loose metal chairs.
里面有一条布满灰尘的短走廊，墙壁磨损了，小门厅里放着几把松散的金属椅子。
And it's filled with people, maybe 50 of them.
里面挤满了人，大概有 50 个人。
People are literally pressed against a plexiglass divider at the end of the hall.
人们实际上被压在大厅尽头的有机玻璃隔板上。
An old woman shouts, "I'm not a dog, I'm a human being."
一位老妇人喊道：“我不是狗，我是人。”
[SPEAKING ARABIC] (HOST) LARRY KAPLOW: Nancy, our interpreter Sarah, and I approach a man who tells us he was injured in a bombing back in 2006.
[阿拉伯语]（主持人）拉里·卡普洛：南希、我们的翻译莎拉和我走近一名男子，他告诉我们他在 2006 年的一次爆炸中受伤。
He's a Shiite and they were usually the targets.
他是什叶派，他们通常是目标。
After more than a dozen operations on his leg, a doctor classified him 70% disabled, and he can't work his farm.
在对他的腿进行了十多次手术后，医生将他定性为 70% 残疾，并且他无法在农场工作。
So he's here hoping to get a note from the mayor to help get compensation promised by the government.
所以他来这里是希望得到市长的一张纸条，以帮助获得政府承诺的赔偿。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator There is a million Iraqi dinar as a claim for my injury.
[说阿拉伯语] 翻译 我的受伤索赔需要一百万伊拉克第纳尔。
It's been one year.
已经一年了。
I want to get this million, and no one give it to me.
我想要这一百万，却没有人给我。
(HOST) LARRY KAPLOW: A million Iraqi dinars is about $850.
（主持人）拉里·卡普洛：一百万伊拉克第纳尔约合 850 美元。
The man with the leg injury, and everyone else here, wants to see the guy behind the plexiglass divider.
腿部受伤的那个人和这里的其他人都想看看有机玻璃隔板后面的那个人。
It's kind of like The Wizard of Oz , they're hoping he can solve their problems.
这有点像绿野仙踪，他们希望他能解决他们的问题。
But when we get back to see Abdullah Al-Khayali, the mayor of this district of 500,000 people, it turns out, like the wizard, he's mostly powerless.
但当我们回头看到这个拥有 50 万人口的地区的市长阿卜杜拉·阿尔卡亚利 (Abdullah Al-Khayali) 时，我们发现，他就像巫师一样，几乎无能为力。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] (HOST) LARRY KAPLOW: Al-Khayali tells us he doesn't control what's happening on the city streets.
[阿拉伯语]（主持人）拉里·卡普洛：Al-Khayali 告诉我们他无法控制城市街道上发生的事情。
The police force answers to the army, not to him.
警察部队听命于军队，而不是听命于他。
The schools and the hospitals are run from Baghdad.
学校和医院由巴格达管理。
He can't authorise big public works projects.
他不能授权大型公共工程项目。
It's not so different from how it all worked under Saddam, and there's no plan for that to change.
这与萨达姆统治下的情况没有太大不同，而且没有计划改变这一点。
He still depends on the central government for almost all his money, too.
他几乎所有的钱仍然依赖中央政府。
Definitely no hospitality budget.
绝对没有招待预算。
He points to the table in front of us.
他指着我们面前的桌子。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator And for your information, too, this is a simple example, the tea, the water, it's all from my own money.
[说阿拉伯语] 翻译 也供您参考，这是一个简单的例子，茶、水，都是我自己的钱。
You mean the tea that we're drinking, the water, here on the table?
你是指我们正在喝的茶、水，就在桌子上吗？
[SPEAKING ARABIC] (HOST) LARRY KAPLOW: He says the tea is no big deal, he's just trying to make a point.
[阿拉伯语]（主持人）拉里·卡普洛：他说茶没什么大不了的，他只是想表达一个观点。
Al-Khayali in his mid-30's, and he's charming.
Al-Khayali 30 多岁，很有魅力。
Both times we see him, he's dressed like he is going to a nightclub instead of City Hall, in perfectly coordinated suits and ties and even socks.
我们两次见到他时，他的穿着都像是要去夜总会而不是市政厅，西装革履，领带甚至袜子都完美协调。
He's dapper, but beleaguered.
他衣冠楚楚，却饱受困扰。
Take the issue he says everyone's complaining to him about-- roadblocks.
以他所说的每个人都向他抱怨的问题为例——障碍。
The Iraqi Army has barricaded all the roads into the center of town.
伊拉克军队封锁了通往市中心的所有道路。
They're meant to prevent car bomb attacks, but they've completely choked off the downtown.
它们的目的是防止汽车炸弹袭击，但它们已经完全封锁了市中心。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator Yes, yes.
[说阿拉伯语] 翻译 是的，是的。
They blocked it, and they stopped everybody from working and make living for their families.
他们封锁了它，他们阻止每个人工作并为家人谋生。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator And without taking my order or ask me for it first, because I am here, the highest authority.
[说阿拉伯语] 翻译 无需接受我的命令或先询问我，因为我在这里，是最高权威。
(HOST) LARRY KAPLOW: Just imagine if an army blocked all the traffic to your downtown without consulting the mayor or anyone else.
（主持人）拉里·卡普洛：想象一下，如果一支军队在没有咨询市长或其他任何人的情况下封锁了通往市中心的所有交通。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator I don't want to be proud, but really I am a social leader, and they make decisions without asking me or telling me about it.
[说阿拉伯语] 译者 我不想感到骄傲，但实际上我是一名社会领袖，他们在不询问我或告诉我的情况下做出决定。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator And really I want them to hear this message.
[说阿拉伯语] 翻译 我真的希望他们听到这个消息。
(HOST) LARRY KAPLOW: One thing he does have a say in is who gets houses that the United Nations is giving away.
（主持人）拉里·卡普洛：他确实有发言权的一件事是，谁能获得联合国赠送的房屋。
They're supposed to go to refugees whose homes were destroyed.
他们应该去帮助那些家园被毁的难民。
It's a US funded program to bring back people who fled the violence.
这是一项由美国资助的项目，旨在接回逃离暴力的人们。
But we heard he was giving some of the houses to relatives, even if they still had homes.
但我们听说他把一些房子送给了亲戚，即使他们仍然有房子。
So we ask Al-Khayali, expecting a sharp denial.
因此我们询问了阿尔卡亚利，并期待他的尖锐否认。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator Yes, many of these things happened.
[说阿拉伯语] 译者 是的，发生了很多这样的事情。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator I don't want to talk about ethics and say that I am a perfect man, yeah.
[说阿拉伯语] 翻译 我不想谈论道德并说我是一个完美的男人，是的。
(INTERVIEWER) LARRY KAPLOW: Are you saying that sometimes you do have to give houses to your friends and family because they pressure you?
（采访者）拉里·卡普洛：你是说有时你确实必须把房子送给你的朋友和家人，因为他们给你带来压力？
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator Not by force but--
[说阿拉伯语] 翻译 不是通过武力而是——
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator Yes, maybe they really pressure on me because maybe sometimes they wouldn't even do some work for me because I didn't give them the house.
[说阿拉伯语] 翻译是的，也许他们真的给我施加了压力，因为有时他们甚至不会为我做一些工作，因为我没有给他们房子。
(HOST) LARRY KAPLOW: In Iraq, family comes first, because family might be the only thing you have to fall back on.
（主持人）拉里·卡普洛：在伊拉克，家庭是第一位的，因为家庭可能是你唯一可以依靠的东西。
All the other institutions are so fragile.
所有其他机构都如此脆弱。
The next rung up the government ladder, above City Hall, is the Provincial Council.
政府阶梯的下一个台阶，位于市政厅上方，是省议会。
If the provinces in Iraq are like states, the Provincial Council is like the State Legislature.
如果伊拉克的各省就像州，那么省议会就像州立法机构。
The Council meets in a fancier building the mayor's office, much fancier.
委员会在一座更豪华的市长办公室大楼里开会，更豪华。
Tea and water flow freely.
茶和水自由流动。
But that doesn't mean it works any better.
但这并不意味着它效果更好。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator All the Provincial Council, no one of them served the citizen of Diyala.
[说阿拉伯语] 翻译 所有省议会，没有人为迪亚拉公民服务。
No one of them.
他们中没有一个人。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] (HOST) LARRY KAPLOW: Meet Ahmer Thamer Mustafa Al-Khirke.
[阿拉伯语]（主持人）拉里·卡普洛（LARRY KAPLOW）：来认识一下艾哈迈尔·塔默·穆斯塔法·阿尔克尔克（Ahmer Thamer Mustafa Al-Khirke）。
He's a member of the Provincial Council, but he's mastered the political art of being outraged like he's some man on the street.
他是省议会的成员，但他掌握了像街头普通人一样愤怒的政治艺术。
Sarah couldn't keep a straight face as she was translating.
莎拉在翻译时无法保持板着脸。
He speaks too much.
他说得太多了。
Nancy Updike I know, I know.
南希·厄普代克 我知道，我知道。
The citizen of Diyala are disgusted by the situation of the Provincial Council.
迪亚拉公民对省议会的处境感到厌恶。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator There's no electricity, no sewing services.
[阿拉伯语] 翻译 没有电，没有缝纫服务。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator Garbage everywhere.
[说阿拉伯语] 翻译者到处都是垃圾。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] (HOST) LARRY KAPLOW: It was a fascinating interview.
[阿拉伯语]（主持人）拉里·卡普洛：这是一次精彩的采访。
Picture Al-Khirke, a trim 54 year old in a dark suit, in the imperious bearing of the army general he was under the old regime.
想象一下 Al-Khirke，54 岁，身材匀称，穿着深色西装，一副旧政权统治下的陆军将军的傲慢举止。
He had two main points he wanted to make.
他想表达两个要点。
One, I live to serve the citizens of Diyala.
第一，我活着就是为了服务迪亚拉公民。
In fact--
事实上——
If I am not able to do or serve the people in Diyala, I will quit.
如果我不能为迪亚拉人民做事或服务，我就会辞职。
(HOST) LARRY KAPLOW: And two, my allies and I refuse to me with the other members of the Council.
（主持人）拉里·卡普洛：还有两个，我和我的盟友拒绝让我与安理会其他成员一起。
No we will not.
不，我们不会。
We will not attend the meetings until they meet our demands.
在他们满足我们的要求之前我们不会参加会议。
(HOST) LARRY KAPLOW: We spent most of an hour trying to understand how Al-Khirke could serve the people of Diyala as an elected representative, without participating in the political body to which he was elected.
（主持人）拉里·卡普洛：我们花了将近一个小时的时间试图了解 Al-Khirke 如何作为民选代表为迪亚拉人民服务，而不参与他当选的政治机构。
But to Al-Khirke, this whole line of questioning was beside the point.
但对于 Al-Khirke 来说，这整个问题都不是重点。
What's important to him, is that his party didn't do well in local elections about two years ago.
对他来说重要的是，他的政党在大约两年前的地方选举中表现不佳。
They got three out of 29 seats on the Provincial Council.
他们在省议会 29 个席位中获得了 3 个席位。
But by early this year, the mood had shifted, and the party, lead nationally by Ayad Allawi, did very well in the national election, the one held this past spring to choose Iraq's new Parliament and Prime Minister.
但到了今年年初，情绪发生了转变，由伊亚德·阿拉维领导的该党在今年春天选举伊拉克新议会和总理的全国选举中表现出色。
So Al-Khirke is threatening to call a do-over.
因此，阿尔克尔克威胁要重新开始。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] (SUBJECT) TRANSLATOR: And we will make a new election here in Baqubah.
[阿拉伯语]（主题）翻译：我们将在巴古巴进行新的选举。
Why?
为什么？
But why?
但为什么？
(HOST) LARRY KAPLOW: It's as if the Republicans in America looked at their poll numbers and asked for a do-over of the 2008 Presidential election right now.
（主持人）拉里·卡普洛：这就好像美国的共和党人看着他们的民意调查数字，并要求立即重新进行 2008 年总统选举。
But that's the way elections work.
但这就是选举的运作方式。
But that's the way elections work, you don't get to say when the election comes, when you're popular.
但这就是选举的运作方式，你不能说选举什么时候到来，什么时候你受欢迎。
You have to wait for the four years, right?
你得等四年吧？
No. [SPEAKING ARABIC] (HOST) LARRY KAPLOW: He's saying, "No, the law says that if a third of the Provincial Council wants a new election, they can petition the Parliament to call a new election." Which is true, but trying to do that would throw Diyala into many more months of paralysis and drift, which is what the bombers and militants want, too.
不。[阿拉伯语]（主持人）拉里·卡普洛：他是说，“不，法律规定，如果省议会三分之一的成员想要举行新的选举，他们可以请求议会举行新的选举。”确实如此，但试图这样做会让迪亚拉陷入更多个月的瘫痪和漂泊状态，这也是轰炸机和武装分子想要的。
They've killed 381 people and wounded over 1,000 in Diyala so far this year.
今年到目前为止，他们已在迪亚拉造成 381 人死亡、1000 多人受伤。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator God willing, we will solve all these problems and we will find the solutions for all troubles in Iraq.
[说阿拉伯语] 翻译 愿上帝保佑，我们将解决所有这些问题，我们将为伊拉克的所有麻烦找到解决方案。
(HOST) LARRY KAPLOW: This is politics in Iraq today.
（主持人）拉里·卡普洛：这就是当今伊拉克的政治。
All these institutions are so new and so weak, and the politicians don't see the point of working together and compromising.
所有这些机构都是如此新且如此薄弱，政治家们看不到共同合作和妥协的意义。
For them, you're either in charge or you're not.
对于他们来说，你要么负责，要么不负责。
Like in the old Iraq.
就像在古老的伊拉克一样。
And if that's your mentality, with everything in flux, if you're not on top, the most sensible strategy is to stall until power shifts again.
如果这就是你的心态，在一切都在变化的情况下，如果你没有处于领先地位，那么最明智的策略就是停滞不前，直到权力再次转移。
Act Three, Today in Babylon.
第三幕，今天在巴比伦。
Iraq is stable now.
伊拉克目前局势稳定。
In geo-political terms, Iraq is stable.
从地缘政治角度来看，伊拉克是稳定的。
We saw that when we were there.
我们在那里时看到了这一点。
Kids go to school.
孩子们去上学。
People with money go out to dinner and take vacations.
有钱的人出去吃饭、度假。
Men go hit the night clubs in Baghdad and drink beer.
男人们去巴格达的夜总会喝啤酒。
Young couples have fancy deafening weddings.
年轻夫妇举办盛大的婚礼。
(HOST) LARRY KAPLOW: But stable in Iraq just means it's not flying into pieces anymore.
（主持人）拉里·卡普洛：但是伊拉克的稳定仅仅意味着它不再支离破碎。
Stable means stable enough for us, the rest of the world.
稳定意味着对我们和世界其他地方来说足够稳定。
For people who live there, it's still dangerous, frightening, and just plain difficult.
对于住在那里的人们来说，这仍然是危险的、令人恐惧的，而且非常困难。
There aren't enough jobs.
没有足够的工作机会。
Huge numbers of people survive on a couple of days of work a month, or they live off relatives.
大量的人每月只能工作几天，或者依靠亲戚过活。
Officials expect bribes for everything, passports, business permits, police protection.
官员们期望一切都会受到贿赂，包括护照、商业许可证、警察保护。
The prisons are horrific.
监狱太可怕了。
There isn't enough clean water.
没有足够的干净水。
The entire country is carpeted with trash that seems to be 90% flattened water bottles.
整个国家到处都是垃圾，其中 90% 都是压扁的水瓶。
And there are still bombings and killings.
爆炸和杀戮事件仍在发生。
200 to 300 dead per month.
每月有 200 至 300 人死亡。
That's a tenth of what it was three years ago.
这是三年前的十分之一。
But imagine if a dozen or more people were being blown up by bombs each month in any US city, for seven years.
但想象一下，如果连续七年，美国任何一个城市每月都有十几人或更多人被炸弹炸死。
You don't get used to it.
你不习惯它。
Iraqis haven't developed some special mid-East super immunity to violence just because they've seen a lot of it.
伊拉克人并没有因为目睹了很多暴力事件而对中东地区的暴力产生了某种特殊的超级免疫力。
Larry and I talked to so many people who were just exhausted by relentless, low-level fear.
拉里和我采访了很多人，他们因持续不断的低级恐惧而精疲力尽。
(HOST) LARRY KAPLOW: So we made it our mission to seek out people who are happy and plowing ahead in spite of at all.
（主持人）拉里·卡普洛（LARRY KAPLOW）：因此，我们的使命是寻找那些快乐、不顾一切努力前进的人。
We stopped in at a shop in Abu Abed's old neighborhood, Amiriyah.
我们在阿布·阿贝德 (Abu Abed) 的老街区阿米里亚 (Amiriyah) 的一家商店停下来。
It was full of women, and stocked floor to ceiling with herbal remedies of every kind including--
里面挤满了女人，从地板到天花板都堆满了各种草药，包括——
Snake oil.
蛇油。
Woman Snake oil makes long hair for the women, and it's so good to make the hair strong.
女人蛇油对于女性来说可以长发，而且对头发强韧有很好的效果。
An actual snake oil salesman.
一个真正的蛇油推销员。
His shop was clearly a hub for women in the neighborhood.
他的商店显然是附近女性的聚集地。
He joked around with them while he told them how to take the medicines, threw English in.
他一边和他们开玩笑，一边告诉他们如何服药，还讲了英语。
One before breakfast, one before lunch, and then I'll welcome my sister.
早餐前一份，午餐前一份，然后我会欢迎我的妹妹。
After the women left, I started to ask my first question.
女士们离开后，我开始问我的第一个问题。
How are things in Amiriyah now?
阿米莉亚现在怎么样了？
How is Amiriyah now?
阿米莉亚现在怎么样了？
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Shop Owner [SPEAKING ARABIC]
[阿拉伯语] 店主 [阿拉伯语]
(SUBJECT) TRANSLATOR: He said, I want to check, because one of the ladies left here a bag.
（主题）翻译：他说，我想检查一下，因为其中一位女士在这里留下了一个包。
I need to check it.
我需要检查一下。
He was checking her bag to make sure she hadn't left a bomb behind.
他正在检查她的包，以确保她没有留下炸弹。
My friends with the women-- [SPEAKING ARABIC]
我的女性朋友们--[阿拉伯语]
(SUBJECT) TRANSLATOR: She is my friend, but I also got my suspicions about it.
（主题）翻译：她是我的朋友，但我也对此有所怀疑。
Within five minutes, he was telling us how during the worst of the violence, three years ago, his older brother had been kidnapped and the family impoverished itself to pay $17,000 ransom.
五分钟之内，他就告诉我们，三年前，在最严重的暴力事件中，他的哥哥被绑架，全家陷入贫困，只得支付 17,000 美元的赎金。
We sold many things, our car, another shop, everyone from my sister's and sister-in-law's gold, we sold it.
我们卖了很多东西，我们的车，另一家商店，我姐姐和嫂子的金子，我们都卖了。
They killed him anyway.
不管怎样，他们杀了他。
Translator And we asked them, why you killed him?
我们问他们，你们为什么杀了他？
His name is Hussein.
他的名字叫侯赛因。
Hussein is the name of a Shiite saint.
侯赛因是什叶派圣人的名字。
He was killed by a Shiite militia.
他被什叶派民兵杀害。
They said, he's a Sunni and he's a Dulami.
他们说，他是逊尼派，他是杜拉米。
Dulami, his last name, is the name of a large Sunni tribe in Iraq.
他的姓氏杜拉米是伊拉克一个大型逊尼派部落的名字。
The man started to cry, and went to the back of the shop to collect himself.
那人开始哭泣，然后走到商店后面让自己平静下来。
(HOST) LARRY KAPLOW: We didn't give up on our mission, but the reality was almost any person we talked to in Iraq was only one or two questions away from despair.
（主持人）拉里·卡普洛：我们没有放弃我们的使命，但现实是，我们在伊拉克采访过的几乎任何人都只需要一两个问题就可以摆脱绝望。
Even our translator, Sarah, who was always sunny and joking around, broke down during an interview.
就连一向阳光开朗、爱开玩笑的翻译莎拉，在接受采访时也崩溃了。
It happened after a man we were talking to, a Sons of Iraq leader in Diyalah, plucked a tissue out of a box to make a point.
事情发生在我们采访的一名男子、迪亚拉的一名伊拉克之子领导人之后，他从盒子里拿出一张纸巾来表达自己的观点。
I'm sorry.
对不起。
He says the American forces use us like a tissue.
他说美军像使用纸巾一样使用我们。
I feel the same thing.
我也有同样的感觉。
I'm sorry.
对不起。
(HOST) LARRY KAPLOW: Sarah was an interpreter for the US Army during the surge.
（主持人）拉里·卡普洛：莎拉在增兵期间担任美国陆军的翻译。
And she was wrongly accused of aiding the insurgents, put in prison, and by the time the charges were dropped, she'd been blacklisted and couldn't go back to work for the US, one of the few decent paying jobs in Iraq.
她被错误地指控为帮助叛乱分子，被关进监狱，当指控被撤销时，她已被列入黑名单，无法返回美国工作，这是伊拉克为数不多的高薪工作之一。
She's the only bread winner for two boys.
她是两个男孩唯一的养家糊口者。
Her husband was killed because of her work with the Americans.
她的丈夫因她与美国人的合作而被杀。
We went to what seems to be the happiest place in Baghdad.
我们去了巴格达似乎最快乐的地方。
Zawra park, which is a big amusement park, with rides and places to picnic.
扎瓦拉公园，这是一个大型游乐园，有游乐设施和野餐场所。
In the rest of Baghdad this summer, you might get an hour a day of city electricity.
今年夏天，在巴格达的其他地区，您可能每天可以获得一小时的城市电力。
But Zawra park is always lit up, like any carnival midway.
但扎瓦拉公园总是灯火通明，就像任何嘉年华中途一样。
It was packed with groups of young single men and families.
这里挤满了年轻的单身男子和家庭。
(HOST) LARRY KAPLOW: One family was having a night-time birthday picnic, with cake and candles, for one of the women's two-year old granddaughter.
（主持人）拉里·卡普洛：一个家庭正在为其中一名妇女两岁的孙女举办夜间生日野餐，配有蛋糕和蜡烛。
We came here today to just sort of escape from the lack of water, and the lack of electricity.
我们今天来到这里只是为了逃避缺水和缺电的情况。
Just to come here to have fun, to have a change of atmosphere.
来这里只是为了玩得开心，换换气氛。
To celebrate.
庆祝一下。
To smile.
微笑。
(HOST) LARRY KAPLOW: The park costs money.
（主持人）拉里·卡普洛：公园要花钱。
The cake and the outing were a big deal for this family.
蛋糕和郊游对这个家庭来说是一件大事。
They are Shiites from Sadr city, the poorest part of Baghdad.
他们是来自巴格达最贫困地区萨德尔市的什叶派。
We are just laborers, day by day.
我们只是日复一日的劳动者。
Basically if we get paid, then we eat and we drink and things like that.
基本上，如果我们得到报酬，我们就会吃喝之类的。
If we don't have a job-- you know labor is a day by day job.
如果我们没有工作——你知道劳动就是日常工作。
If you get a job, it's great.
如果你找到工作，那就太好了。
If you don't, you know.
如果你不这样做，你就知道。
(HOST) LARRY KAPLOW: Of course, this being Iraq, where hospitality to strangers is a national creed, the family insisted we join them for cake.
（主持人）拉里·卡普洛：当然，这是伊拉克，热情好客是这里的民族信条，家人坚持要我们和他们一起吃蛋糕。
And we were two minutes in, I clocked it, when they started telling us there version of the snake oil man's story.
我记录下来，我们刚进去两分钟，他们就开始给我们讲那个版本的蛇油人的故事。
An aunt, chased down and killed by some of her Sunni neighbors, the rest of the family driven out of their home.
一位阿姨被一些逊尼派邻居追杀，家里其他人也被赶出了家门。
Even our neighbors were trying to kill us.
甚至我们的邻居也想杀了我们。
They were waiting for us at the end of the street.
他们在街的尽头等我们。
My neighbor from the other side had called me and told me that, "You should leave immediately." So I took my boys, and my husband, and we left the area.
对面的邻居给我打电话，告诉我：“你应该立即离开。”所以我带着我的孩子们和我的丈夫，我们离开了这个地区。
I asked them what they thought about the US.
我问他们对美国的看法。
These were people who had been terribly oppressed under Saddam Hussein.
这些人在萨达姆·侯赛因统治下受到了可怕的压迫。
At the same time, many more Shiite civilians have been killed in the last seven years than Sunnis or American troops.
与此同时，过去七年里被杀害的什叶派平民比逊尼派或美国军队还要多。
The woman I was talking to clammed up, and had to be coaxed by our translator.
与我交谈的那位女士沉默了，不得不被我们的翻译哄着。
Finally she said--
最后她说——
Basically, I don't want to give you the truth, because I don't want you to be disappointed or upset, because I don't want you to feel that I'm degrading your country or anything like that.
基本上，我不想告诉你真相，因为我不想让你失望或不安，因为我不想让你觉得我在侮辱你的国家或类似的事情。
I said, "Let me have it." Translator We see Americans as the enemy.
我说：“给我吧。”我们将美国人视为敌人。
As they came in, they were the enemy, because as you might know, or might heard, you saw all the killing in the streets and the kidnapping and the ransoms.
当他们进来时，他们是敌人，因为正如你可能知道或可能听到的那样，你看到了街上所有的杀戮、绑架和赎金。
They're the enemy.
他们是敌人。
I mean, there's no point.
我的意思是，没有意义。
I mean I can't emphasize enough to you how much that they hurt the Iraqi community.
我的意思是，我无法向你们强调他们对伊拉克社区的伤害有多大。
We were under the impression that they would pick up the pieces, they would put everything together again, but instead they shattered it.
我们的印象是他们会收拾残局，他们会把一切重新组合在一起，但他们却把它打碎了。
There's a quote from the US military's counter-insurgency manual, the text book for the strategy that help turned the Iraq war around.
引用了美军反叛乱手册中的一句话，该手册是帮助扭转伊拉克战争的战略教科书。
It says, "Sometimes societies are most prone to unrest, not when conditions are the worse, but when the situation begins to improve and people's expectations rise." The worst violence in Iraq ended about two years ago.
报告称，“有时社会最容易发生动荡，不是当情况变得更糟时，而是当情况开始改善、人们的期望上升时。”伊拉克最严重的暴力事件大约两年前结束。
But in those two years, Iraqis haven't seen their daily life improve at all.
但这两年，伊拉克人的日常生活却没有丝毫改善。
Their relief at not being in constant danger has worn off, and now they want more than just survival.
他们因不再处于持续危险中而感到的欣慰已经消失，现在他们想要的不仅仅是生存。
They want to move forward with their lives.
他们想要继续自己的生活。
But they can't.
但他们不能。
(HOST) LARRY KAPLOW: We did eventually find someone who didn't cry.
（主持人）拉里·卡普洛：我们最终确实找到了一个不哭的人。
A soft spoken man named Faraz Khaldoon with a shiny spacious store, full of ice cream soda and canned goods from Syria and Turkey.
说话温和的人名叫法拉兹·卡尔顿（Faraz Khaldoon），他的商店宽敞明亮，里面摆满了来自叙利亚和土耳其的冰淇淋苏打水和罐头食品。
Even condiments from the US.
甚至还有来自美国的调味品。
But even him, when we ask him how it's going, he says with a laugh--
但即使是他，当我们问他进展如何时，他也笑着说——
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Translator About 85% bad.
[阿拉伯语] 翻译 大约 85% 不好。
(HOST) LARRY KAPLOW: In the six months since he opened his shop, two bombs have gone off nearby, one of them shattering his windows.
（主持人）拉里·卡普洛：自他开店以来的六个月里，附近发生了两枚炸弹，其中一枚炸碎了他的窗户。
The city's decrepit power grid surged and started a fire in the store.
这座城市破旧的电网突然激增，导致商店起火。
And bombings in the market downtown led the Iraqi Army to close off a bunch of the roads.
市中心市场的爆炸事件导致伊拉克军队封锁了许多道路。
So when he tries to restock his store, to run his business, it takes a Rube Goldberg series of motorbikes and trucks.
因此，当他试图给商店进货、经营生意时，他需要鲁布·戈德堡系列的摩托车和卡车。
He told us the same thing a lot of people did.
他告诉我们很多人都做过的同样的事情。
The snake oil salesman, our translator Sarah, people in the mayor's office, the park and stores, hardworking middle-class people.
万金油推销员，我们的翻译莎拉，市长办公室、公园和商店里的人们，勤劳的中产阶级。
He wants to leave Iraq.
他想离开伊拉克。
Most of these people won't be able to leave.
这些人大多数都无法离开。
But they want to.
但他们想要。
And there are a lot of them.
而且数量很多。
Credits Ira Glass Our program today was reported in Iraq by Larry Kaplow and Nancy Updike, produced by our senior producer, Julie Snyder, and Jonathan Menjivar, with Alex Blumberg, Ben Calhoun, Jane Feltes, Sarah Koenig, Lisa Pollak, Robyn Semien, and Alissa Shipp.
图片来源 Ira Glass 我们今天的节目由拉里·卡普洛 (Larry Kaplow) 和南希·厄普代克 (Nancy Updike) 在伊拉克报道，由我们的高级制片人朱莉·斯奈德 (Julie Snyder) 和乔纳森·曼吉瓦 (Jonathan Menjivar) 制作，并与亚历克斯·布隆伯格 (Alex Blumberg)、本·卡尔霍恩 (Ben Calhoun)、简·费尔特斯 (Jane Feltes)、莎拉·科尼格 (Sarah Koenig)、丽莎·波拉克 (Lisa Pollak)、罗宾·塞米恩 (Robyn Semien) 和艾丽莎·希普 (Alissa Shipp) 合作。
Seth Lind is our production manager.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的生产经理。
Emily Condon is our office manager.
艾米丽·康登 (Emily Condon) 是我们的办公室经理。
Production help from Shawn Wen.
Shawn Wen 提供制作帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
[致谢] 我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
WBEZ management oversight for our program by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia.
我们的老板 Torey Malatia 先生对我们的项目进行 WBEZ 管理监督。
You know, he is not just our boss.
要知道，他不仅仅是我们的老板。
He is not just a great public radio professional.
他不仅仅是一位伟大的公共广播专业人士。
He is also a part time professional mind reader.
他也是一名兼职专业读心术者。
Your thoughts are very nice.
你的想法非常好。
Ira Glass I'm Ira Glass.
艾拉·格拉斯 我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。