410: Social Contract - This American Life

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #410 | June 18, 2010 410: Social Contract Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 410 集 | 2010 年 6 月 18 日 410：社会契约注释：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue Ira Glass Everywhere lately, the news seems like it's the same.

序言 Ira Glass 最近到处都是这样的新闻。

You go to Germany.

你去德国。

Germany's long-term unemployed, parents, and the country's army are among those with the most to lose from budget cuts announced yesterday.

德国长期失业者、父母和军队是昨天宣布的预算削减中损失最大的群体。

Or England-- Here's the Prime Minister explaining that massive cuts in government are essential.

或者英国——首相解释说，大规模削减政府开支至关重要。

How we deal with these things will affect our economy and our society, indeed our whole way of life.

我们如何处理这些事情将影响我们的经济和社会，甚至我们的整个生活方式。

In California, Republican State Senator Bob Dutton--

在加利福尼亚州，共和党州参议员鲍勃·达顿——

I don't think myself, my colleagues-- I don't think any of my Democrat colleagues obviously-- nobody likes making any of these cuts.

我不认为我自己、我的同事们——显然我不认为我的民主党同事们——没有人喜欢进行任何这些削减。

We don't want to do this.

我们不想这样做。

This is counterproductive.

这是适得其反的。

I agree.

我同意。

California is not alone, of course.

当然，加州并不孤单。

Forty-eight of the 50 states have budget shortfalls.

50 个州中有 48 个州存在预算短缺。

And, of course, there's Greece, whose collapse is threatening the stability of the entire European Union.

当然，还有希腊，它的崩溃正在威胁整个欧盟的稳定。

We're standing here on this building overlooking the Parliamentary square, and we could actually see into the crowd when it turned violent.

我们站在这座俯瞰议会广场的大楼上，当暴力发生时，我们实际上可以看到人群。

They turned, in fact, on Giannis Panagopoulos who is the head of the biggest trade union here.

事实上，他们把矛头指向了扬尼斯·帕纳戈普洛斯（Giannis Panagopoulos），他是这里最大工会的领导人。

They beat him up, claimed that he'd sold out to the government.

他们殴打了他，并声称他已出卖给政府。

The crowd then turned on the parliament.

人群随后转向议会。

They tried to storm parliament.

他们试图冲击议会。

Everywhere, governments are cutting back.

各地政府都在削减开支。

But watching this process, it's hard not to wonder if our politics are simply incapable of handling this in a thoughtful way, if our politics are just too crude for the problems that we face.

但观察这个过程，很难不怀疑我们的政治是否根本无法以深思熟虑的方式处理这个问题，是否我们的政治对于我们面临的问题过于粗糙。

In so many places, you see posturing along very familiar lines, for example, people digging in their heels against all taxes.

在很多地方，你都会看到人们采取非常熟悉的态度，例如，人们坚持反对所有税收。

And other people digging in their heels against any cutbacks in certain kinds of services.

而其他人则坚决反对削减某些类型的服务。

And it drags on for months, and we stay in crisis.

它持续了几个月，我们仍然处于危机之中。

And so today, we have two stories of people trying to be thoughtful, and really step above partisan bickering, and solve these problems in the least painful way.

所以今天，我们有两个故事，讲述了人们试图深思熟虑，真正超越党派争吵，以最不痛苦的方式解决这些问题。

And we hear what happens to these idealists when they confront reality.

我们听到这些理想主义者面对现实时会发生什么。

And surprise, one of them is actually successful.

令人惊讶的是，其中一个实际上是成功的。

From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life distributed by Public Radio International.

这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。

I'm Ira Glass with a little summer cold, but feeling just fine and excited at the amazing stories we have for you today.

我是艾拉·格拉斯，虽然夏天有点感冒，但感觉很好，对我们今天为您带来的精彩故事感到兴奋。

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

Act One, Mister Fix It.

第一幕，修复先生。

New York State has the same problem most states have right now, not enough money to cover its expenses.

纽约州现在面临着大多数州同样的问题，没有足够的钱来支付其开支。

But it's reaching a crisis point in New York.

但纽约已经到了危机时刻。

This week, the government nearly shut down, because though it's two months into the new fiscal year, the legislature and governor can't agree on a budget.

本周，政府几乎关门，因为尽管新财政年度已经过去两个月，立法机关和州长仍无法就预算达成一致。

Every week, they pass an emergency spending bill to keep state services going.

他们每周都会通过一项紧急支出法案，以维持国家服务的运转。

The legislators are getting pretty fried.

立法者们变得非常焦躁。

Here are State Senators Hugh Farley and Roy McDonald.

以下是州参议员休·法利和罗伊·麦克唐纳。

It's time to pass a budget.

是时候通过预算了。

We've got to get this act together.

我们必须齐心协力采取这一行动。

It's an absolute disgrace.

这绝对是一种耻辱。

We have lost the respect, justifiably so.

我们失去了尊重，这是理所当然的。

We've lost the respect of real people in this state.

在这个州，我们已经失去了真正的人们的尊重。

What New York does have going for it is that it brought in somebody to help solve the crisis.

纽约的真正优势在于它聘请了一些人来帮助解决危机。

The guy they brought in is exactly the sort of person you would hope for, nonpartisan, liked by everybody, and experienced.

他们引进的人正是你所希望的那种人，无党派，人人喜欢，而且经验丰富。

He stepped in and solved this kind of financial crisis, not once, not twice, but three other times in New York.

他在纽约介入并解决了这种金融危机，不是一次，不是两次，而是另外三次。

Though he says he's found that this time it's different, that all of us, not just in New York but everywhere, are in uncharted territory.

尽管他说他发现这次有所不同，但我们所有人，不仅在纽约，而且在任何地方，都处于未知的领域。

That we don't even understand the trouble that we're in.

我们甚至不明白我们所面临的麻烦。

But before I introduce you to him, let's set the stage, especially for those of you who live far from New York.

但在我向您介绍他之前，让我们先做好准备，特别是对于那些住在远离纽约的人来说。

You need to understand a few things about just how terribly run New York State is.

您需要了解纽约州的管理有多么糟糕的一些事情。

A study by the Brennan Institute named New York State the most dysfunctional state government in the country, and that was three years before the state started making national headlines by sinking far lower than anybody thought possible.

布伦南研究所的一项研究将纽约州评为美国功能最失调的州政府，而三年前，该州的政府状况远低于任何人的想象，开始成为全国头条新闻。

At the State Capitol building in Albany a few weeks ago, I asked Karen DeWitt, the New York Public Radio reporter who covers this stuff, and some of her colleagues for a quick review of what happened.

几周前，在奥尔巴尼的州议会大厦，我请报道此事的纽约公共广播电台记者凯伦·德威特 (Karen DeWitt) 和她的一些同事快速回顾一下所发生的事情。

Karen started with a scandal I'd actually forgotten, the state comptroller being forced to resign.

凯伦从一桩我实际上已经忘记的丑闻开始：州审计长被迫辞职。

Because he got in trouble for using a state car to drive around his wife.

因为他因为开着一辆国车绕过他的妻子而惹上麻烦。

And we thought that was bad.

我们认为这很糟糕。

We thought that was a terrible scandal.

我们认为这是一个可怕的丑闻。

It would pale against what happened next.

与接下来发生的事情相比，一切都显得黯然失色。

Eliot Spitzer came in as governor, and began berating legislators, even allegedly sicced a state trooper on the senate majority leader, a somewhat of a Troopergate scandal.

艾略特·斯皮策(Eliot Spitzer)就任州长后，开始斥责立法者，甚至据称还用一名州警攻击参议院多数党领袖，这有点像“士兵门”丑闻。

All prologue to March 10, 2008, which was, coincidentally, Erin Billups' first day as a political reporter for New York One TV.

这一切都是2008年3月10日的序幕，巧合的是，这一天是艾琳·比卢普斯(Erin Billups)作为New York One TV政治记者的第一天。

And I was driving to the Capitol, and I was excited about my first day of work.

我正开车去国会大厦，我对第一天工作感到兴奋。

And I got a call from my producer that was like, "Ah, have you heard the news?" And I was like, "No." And they're like, "Oh well, Spitzer is involved with a prostitution ring." And I was like, "Oh, he busted a prostitution ring?" No.

我接到制片人的电话，内容是：“啊，你听到这个消息了吗？”我当时想，“不。”他们就像，“哦，好吧，斯皮策参与了一个卖淫团伙。”我当时想，“哦，他破获了一个卖淫团伙？”不。

The governor of the state of New York has reportedly told his senior officials that he was involved in a prostitution ring.

据报道，纽约州州长告诉他的高级官员，他参与了一个卖淫团伙。

Sources are telling Fox News Channel that Governor Spitzer is expected to resign.

消息人士告诉福克斯新闻频道，斯皮策州长预计将辞职。

So what happened after that, David Paterson became governor.

那之后发生了什么，大卫帕特森成为州长。

The day after he became governor, he had a press conference to tell us about adulterous affairs he and his wife had had, just to get it out of the way.

他就任州长的第二天，就召开了新闻发布会，向我们讲述了他和妻子的通奸事件，只是为了摆脱这件事。

I betrayed a commitment to my wife several years ago, but both of us committed acts of infidelity.

几年前，我背叛了对妻子的承诺，但我们俩都做出了不忠的行为。

You know, he starts talking, and immediately we realized what he's starting to tell us.

你知道，他开始说话，我们立即意识到他要告诉我们什么。

And we're all looking at each other like, oh my gosh, not again.

我们都看着对方，好像在说，天哪，别再这样了。

Kyle Hughes is a 20-year vet covering the Capitol, now for NYSNYS.com.

凯尔·休斯 (Kyle Hughes) 是一位拥有 20 年国会大厦报道经验的资深人士，现在为 NYSNYS.com 工作。

He'd given us way too much information, just stuff that you don't necessarily want to hear from your governor.

他给了我们太多的信息，只是你不一定想从州长那里听到的东西。

It's like hearing from your dad.

就像听到你父亲的声音一样。

A prime example, Paterson told The Daily News that he would sometimes take his wife to the same hotel that he had gone to have affairs, the Days Inn in Harlem, on the advice of a counselor who told them to spice things up in their marriage.

帕特森就是一个典型的例子，他告诉《每日新闻》，他有时会根据一位顾问的建议，带妻子去他出轨的同一家酒店——哈莱姆区的戴斯酒店，顾问告诉他们要为他们的婚姻增添情趣。

And, what was the next thing that happened?

接下来发生了什么？

I guess there was a coup in the State Senate.

我猜州参议院发生了政变。

Right, a coup.

对了，政变。

Here's how that went down.

这就是事情的经过。

The Democrats had just won the State Senate for the first time in four decades, but they only had a two vote majority.

民主党四十年来首次赢得州参议院席位，但只获得两票多数。

There were 32 Democrats, 30 Republicans.

其中民主党人 32 人，共和党人 30 人。

Until, in June 2009, two Democrats made a deal where they switched sides.

直到 2009 年 6 月，两名民主党人达成了交换立场的协议。

They became Republicans in exchange for top Republican positions with a lot of power, which suddenly gave the Republicans control of the Senate.

他们成为共和党人，以换取拥有很大权力的共和党高层职位，这突然让共和党人控制了参议院。

Now, they were the ones with a 32-30 majority.

现在，他们以 32 比 30 获得多数票。

And their first order of business?

他们的首要任务是什么？

Voting out the Democratic head of the Senate, and replacing him with one of their own.

投票罢免民主党参议院议长，并以自己的一位议员取而代之。

I have to say it was almost kind of breathtaking, because they stood up, and we couldn't even figure out what they were doing at first.

我不得不说这几乎是令人惊叹的，因为他们站起来了，我们一开始甚至不知道他们在做什么。

They said, "OK, we're making this motion.

他们说：“好的，我们正在提出这项动议。

We're all going to vote."

我们都会投票。”

All in favor on Senator Winner going to the Chair, stand and raise your hands, as a temporary president.

所有人都赞成参议员温纳担任主席，请起立并举手，作为临时主席。

I felt like we were in a third world country.

我感觉我们就像在第三世界国家。

Mr. President, I have the-- Mr. President, I have the floor.

总统先生，我有发言权。

You have been removed from the Chair.

您已被免去主席职务。

The Democrats turned the lights off.

民主党人关掉了灯。

They tried to run out of the chamber.

他们试图跑出房间。

Would you be quiet?

你能安静点吗？

Man 4 I have the floor, Mr. President.

4 主席先生，我请发言。

The resolution is pending.

该决议尚待决定。

[INTERPOSING VOICES] Immediate vote on adjournment.

[介入声音] 立即就休会进行投票。

The resolution is pending.

该决议尚待决定。

They actually turned off the sound system so it couldn'te be broadcast out to anybody.

他们实际上关闭了音响系统，因此无法向任何人广播。

Rollcall on the vote.

点名投票。

[INTERPOSING VOICES]

[插话]

Then, they locked the chamber, and there was an argument for a couple of days of whether this newly formed coalition would even be able to get a key to get into the Senate chamber.

然后，他们锁上了参议院议事厅，关于这个新成立的联盟是否能够获得进入参议院议事厅的钥匙，争论了几天。

And finally, somebody slipped them a copy of the key, and they were able to get in.

最后，有人给了他们一份钥匙副本，他们才得以进入。

A week later, one of the defecting senators, Hiram Monserrate, decided to switch back to the Democratic Party.

一周后，其中一位叛逃的参议员海勒姆·蒙塞拉特（Hiram Monserrate）决定转回民主党。

The Senate later kicked Monserrate out of office, by the way, after he was convicted of assaulting his girlfriend.

顺便说一句，在蒙塞拉特被判袭击女友罪名成立后，参议院随后将他赶出了办公室。

But at the time, Monserrate's switch back to the Democrats left the Senate split down the middle, 31 Republicans, 31 Democrats.

但当时，蒙塞拉特转回民主党，导致参议院分成两派：31 名共和党人，31 名民主党人。

And since you need 32 votes to pass legislation, New York's legislature essentially shut down.

由于需要 32 票才能通过立法，纽约的立法机构基本上关闭了。

If there'd been lieutenant governor, that would have solved the problem, because in New York, the lieutenant governor can cast a vote to break a tie in the Senate.

如果有副州长的话，问题就解决了，因为在纽约，副州长可以投票打破参议院的平局。

But there was no lieutenant governor.

但没有副州长。

The former lieutenant governor, David Paterson, had become the governor.

前副州长戴维·帕特森 (David Paterson) 成为州长。

And so Paterson decided to appoint somebody to the job.

因此帕特森决定任命某人担任这项工作。

But they needed somebody that people respected, somebody whose allegiances and history would not be an issue.

但他们需要一个受到人们尊重的人，一个忠诚度和历史都不会成为问题的人。

And that's when he reached out to a 75-year-old veteran of New York crises, the hero of our story today, Richard Ravitch.

就在那时，他联系了一位 75 岁的纽约危机老兵，也就是我们今天故事的英雄理查德·拉维奇 (Richard Ravitch)。

And Paterson offered Ravitch the job.

帕特森向拉维奇提供了这份工作。

Well, I was totally taken aback from it.

嗯，我完全被吓了一跳。

It was out of the clear, blue sky.

它来自清澈的蓝天。

Ravitch is a big-bellied, ready, man, the kind of old school New Yorker who is still enjoying bacon with his breakfast and cocktails at dinner.

拉维奇是一个大腹便便、准备充分的人，是那种老派的纽约人，他的早餐仍然是培根，晚餐是鸡尾酒。

His charm comes from his utterly straightforward frankness.

他的魅力来自于他的率直坦率。

Three different times when I asked people who know him to describe him, there's a moment before they speak where they pause and smile fondly at the very thought of him.

当我三次请认识他的人描述他时，他们在说话之前都会停下来，一想到他就会深情地微笑。

The night the governor announced his intention to appoint Ravitch to the lieutenant governors' job, Ravitch was out to dinner at a famous old New York steak house, Peter Luger's, with his wife and another couple.

州长宣布打算任命拉维奇担任副州长的那天晚上，拉维奇与妻子和另一对夫妇一起到纽约一家著名的老牛排馆彼得·鲁格牛排店吃晚饭。

They got a call from the governor's lawyer saying the Republicans wanted to block the governor from appointing anybody.

他们接到州长律师的电话，称共和党人希望阻止州长任命任何人。

And therefore, we would like you to sign the oath of office now, and we'll send a lawyer and a notary out to wherever you are.

因此，我们希望您现在就签署就职誓言，我们将派一名律师和一名公证人到您所在的地方。

So they came out to Peter Luger's.

于是他们来到彼得·卢格家。

I signed the oath of office, raised my right hand.

我签署了就职誓言，举起右手。

No. But certainly I'd had a couple of vodkas by then.

不，但那时我肯定已经喝了几瓶伏特加了。

And was there a part of you-- I was trying to figure out a politically sensitive way to ask this question.

你们中有一部分人吗——我试图找出一种政治敏感的方式来提出这个问题。

It was chaos out there.

外面一片混乱。

Did you feel like, I'm going into a madhouse?

你有没有感觉，我要进疯人院了？

Yes, but I'm also-- this sounds terribly pompous, forgive me.

是的，但我也——这听起来太自大了，请原谅我。

But I have a kind of a romance with the whole idea of government and public service.

但我对政府和公共服务的整个理念有一种浪漫的感觉。

So at the same time that I knew I was going into a mad house, I also-- it was a matter of pride that perhaps I could be helpful.

因此，在我知道自己即将进疯人院的同时，我也——也许我能提供帮助，这是一种自豪感。

And there was nothing more useful I could do with my life.

我的一生也没有什么比这更有用的事了。

Ravitch was first drafted into saving New York government, back in the 1970s, by a phone call from a different governor, Hugh Carey, a man he'd never met and didn't know, to solve a crisis involving low income housing.

早在 20 世纪 70 年代，拉维奇就被另一位州长休·凯里 (Hugh Carey) 打来电话，拉维奇第一次被征召去拯救纽约政府，以解决涉及低收入住房的危机。休·凯里是他从未见过也不认识的人。

Ravitch, at the time, was just a civic-minded guy in the construction business.

当时，拉维奇只是建筑行业一位有公民意识的人。

He'd help to integrate the construction unions in New York.

他会帮助整合纽约的建筑工会。

And he made it his personal mission to build low income housing.

他把建造低收入住房作为自己的个人使命。

He knew all about public financing.

他了解所有有关公共融资的知识。

And in 1979, he was called in to fix the New York agency that runs the subways and commuter rail lines, which were falling apart for lack of money before Ravitch turned them around.

1979 年，他受命修复纽约一家负责运营地铁和通勤铁路线的机构，这些机构因缺乏资金而陷入瘫痪，直到拉维奇才扭转了局面。

But Ravitch's greatest achievement, he was part of the small team that saved New York City from bankruptcy in 1975.

但拉维奇最伟大的成就是，他是 1975 年拯救纽约市免于破产的小团队的一员。

He was involved in completely overhauling the way the city did its finances, and getting banks, and labor unions, and the state legislature, and the city government to do all kinds of things that they'd never done, and were reluctant to do.

他参与彻底改革该市的财政方式，让银行、工会、州立法机构和市政府去做各种他们从未做过、也不愿意做的事情。

Ravitch was the team member who invented the method that they used to raise the short term cash the city needed.

拉维奇是团队成员，他发明了他们用来筹集城市所需的短期现金的方法。

And Ravitch was the one called into action October 16, 1975, the day New York came closest to actual financial collapse.

拉维奇是 1975 年 10 月 16 日采取行动的人，这一天纽约最接近真正的金融崩溃。

This is a very long story.

这是一个很长的故事。

I have notes on all this stuff.

我对所有这些东西都有笔记。

It's for a book I'll never write.

这是为了一本我永远不会写的书。

On October 16, 1975, the teachers union declared that it would not purchase $150 million in special government bonds that were being sold to raise money for the city.

1975 年 10 月 16 日，教师工会宣布不会购买为该市筹集资金而出售的 1.5 亿美元特别政府债券。

With the city so close to insolvency, it just seemed too risky.

由于这座城市如此接近破产，这似乎风险太大了。

Ravitch knew that without this 150 million, it would be the end of the line, and throw the city into bankruptcy the next day.

拉维奇知道，如果没有这 1.5 亿，那就完了，第二天就会让这座城市破产。

He couldn't stop thinking about it, and went to bed early, depressed.

他无法停止思考，郁闷地早早上床睡觉了。

At about 10:00 at night, the phone rings.

晚上10：00左右，电话铃声响起。

It's Governor Carey.

我是凯里州长。

He says, "Please come to my office." I got dressed.

他说：“请到我的办公室来。”我穿好衣服了。

I went down to his office.

我去了他的办公室。

And he was in white tie and tails.

他打着白领结，穿着燕尾服。

And he said, "You gotta call Shanker and get him to change his mind."

他说：“你得给尚克打电话，让他​​改变主意。”

Shanker was Albert Shanker, head of the teachers union, an old friend of Ravitch's.

尚克就是阿尔伯特·尚克，教师工会主席，拉维奇的老朋友。

So I met Al in his apartment at 11:30 at night.

于是我晚上11点30分在他的公寓里遇见了Al。

I said to Al, I understood his reluctance, that I respected his dilemma.

我对阿尔说，我理解他的不情愿，我尊重他的困境。

On the other hand, this is one of those unique circumstances in life where the consequences of going into bankruptcy were so disastrous, that you had to take some risks.

另一方面，这是生活中独特的情况之一，破产的后果是如此灾难性，以至于你必须冒一些风险。

So he didn't make up his mind.

所以他没有下定决心。

He said, "I'll call you at home, first thing in the morning."

他说：“我早上第一件事就是给你家里打电话。”

I got home about 6:00 AM.

我早上 6:00 左右到家。

So I'm at home, and I'm listening to the radio and showering, because I've been up all night.

所以我在家里，一边听广播一边洗澡，因为我整夜没睡。

And, all of a sudden, they interrupt.

突然，他们打断了。

They said, "We're interrupting this program to announce that the City of New York is going into bankruptcy today." I never heard from Shanker.

他们说：“我们中断这个计划是为了宣布纽约市今天即将破产。”我从未收到尚克的消息。

Finally, hours later, Shanker calls.

几个小时后，尚克终于打来电话。

He wants a private meeting away from the press.

他希望举行一次远离媒体的私人会议。

So Ravitch, and the governor, and some others meet Shanker at Ravitch's apartment.

于是，拉维奇、州长以及其他一些人在拉维奇的公寓见到了尚克。

The beds aren't made.

床还没铺好。

There's barely anything to eat.

几乎没有什么东西可以吃。

Ravitch puts out some matzah.

拉维奇拿出了一些无酵饼。

And finally, they convince Shanker that really his back is against the wall, all of theirs is.

最后，他们让尚克相信，他真的已经背水一战了，他们所有人都已经背水一战了。

And yes, the bonds are risky.

是的，债券是有风险的。

But if New York defaults, all the city contracts would become invalid including the teachers union contract, which of course, would be awful for Shanker and his union.

但如果纽约违约，所有城市合同都将失效，包括教师工会合同，这对尚克和他的工会来说当然是可怕的。

Shanker, reluctantly, buys the bonds and New York City is saved.

尚克不情愿地购买了这些债券，纽约市得救了。

And where Ravitch talks about the difference between what happened in 1975 and the financial crisis that New York State finds itself in today, and that most states find themselves in, he says that one of the big differences is something that might not seem so important or obvious to you or me.

拉维奇谈到 1975 年发生的事情与纽约州如今以及大多数州所面临的金融危机之间的区别时，他说，最大的区别之一可能对你我来说似乎不那么重要或不那么明显。

Cities can go bankrupt.

城市可能会破产。

But states can't.

但各州不能。

It's just the way bankruptcy works.

这就是破产的运作方式。

And the virtue of being able to go into bankruptcy-- Everybody was terrified.

而能够破产的美德——每个人都感到害怕。

It would have abrogated all existing collective bargaining agreements with all public employee unions.

它将废除与所有公共雇员工会的所有现有集体谈判协议。

And it would've exposed the financial institutions.

而且它还会暴露金融机构。

And the consequence of not doing something was so catastrophic to all the parties, and they wanted to avoid that.

而不采取行动的后果对各方来说都是灾难性的，他们想避免这种情况发生。

And they did just enough to avoid that.

他们所做的足以避免这种情况。

And now, there is no triggering event to make people recognize that this is very serious.

而现在，还没有任何触发事件让人们认识到这是非常严重的。

But you think it's just as serious a crisis.

但你认为这同样是一场严重的危机。

I think it's more serious, because there is no triggering event to force the political system to address it in a serious manner.

我认为这个问题比较严重，因为没有任何触发事件可以迫使政治体系严肃地解决这个问题。

Ravitch has turned himself into an expert on the current state budget at the request of the governor who asked Ravitch to use his expertise to shape a long term solution for New York's fiscal crisis.

应州长的要求，拉维奇将自己变成了当前州预算的专家，州长要求拉维奇利用他的专业知识为纽约的财政危机制定长期解决方案。

One of Ravitch's closest advisors in this project is the governor's budget director, Bob Megna.

拉维奇在该项目中最亲密的顾问之一是州长预算总监鲍勃·梅格纳 (Bob Megna)。

When I visit Megna, more than month into the fiscal year with no budget yet passed, I see a grocery bag full of bright, green, rubber balls, stress balls, sent by the National Association of State Budget Officers.

当我访问梅格纳时，财政年度已过去一个多月，预算尚未通过，我看到一个杂货袋，里面装满了国家预算官员全国协会寄来的明亮的绿色橡皮球和压力球。

[SOUND OF BALL BOUNCING] Bob Megna Yeah, I'll do that a lot.

[球弹跳的声音] Bob Megna 是的，我会经常这样做。

Just in the last month?

就在最后一个月吗？

Bob Megna Oh no. I've always done that, but in the last month, it's really increased in more frustrating moments.

鲍勃·梅格纳 哦不。我一直都是这样做的，但在上个月，在更令人沮丧的时刻，它确实增加了。

Not one, but two, state employees went out of the way to make sure that I understood that the state did not spend money on these balls.

不是一个，而是两个国家雇员特意让我明白国家没有在这些球上花钱。

They were free.

他们是自由的。

Megna pulls out this chart with two lines going across it.

梅格纳拿出这张图表，上面有两条线穿过。

One line shows all the income that the state brings in.

一行显示了国家带来的所有收入。

As you can imagine, that one's not looking so great.

正如你可以想象的那样，那个看起来不太好。

All states, with this recession, bring in less in taxes than they used to.

在这次经济衰退中，所有州的税收都比以前减少了。

That's a big part of the crisis.

这是危机的一个重要部分。

That line rises anemically at the rate of 3.5% increase per year.

该线以每年 3.5% 的速度缓慢增长。

Now there's a much steeper line, twice as steep as the revenue line, showing the growth of spending by the state.

现在有一条更陡的线，是收入线的两倍，显示了国家支出的增长。

Exactly.

确切地。

And that extends out over time.

随着时间的推移，这种情况会持续下去。

We refer to it, in fact, as the Jaws Chart in our kind of day-to-day kind of work, because it just looks like a shark's mouth wide open where the spending line is on the top, and the revenue line is on the bottom.

事实上，我们在日常工作中将其称为“大白鲨图”，因为它看起来就像一张张开的鲨鱼嘴，支出线位于顶部，收入线位于底部。

Megna remembers the moment that Ravitch fully grasped the implications of this particular chart.

梅格纳（Megna）记得拉维奇（Ravitch）完全掌握了这张特定图表的含义的那一刻。

I think that was an ah-ha moment for him.

我认为那对他来说是一个啊哈时刻。

I think he saw the essential ingredient there, which is that this is not a one year problem.

我认为他看到了其中的基本要素，那就是这不是一年的问题。

This is a four or five year problem, and that we weren't making a dent in that bigger problem.

这是一个四五年的问题，而我们并没有在这个更大的问题上取得进展。

I think also the moment for him was-- and this is something every state is confronting, and it's not just New York.

我认为对他来说，这也是每个州都面临的时刻，而不仅仅是纽约。

And I think that was another thing he noticed in talking to folks in Washington was it wasn't just New York.

我认为这是他在与华盛顿人士交谈时注意到的另一件事，那就是不仅仅是纽约。

States are in an unbelievable fiscal meltdown that has been, in my opinion, sadly underreported.

各州正处于令人难以置信的财政崩溃之中，在我看来，令人遗憾的是，这一情况却被低估了。

States, collectively, reportedly have deficits of over $300 billion in this next fiscal year.

据报道，下一财年各州的赤字总计超过 3000 亿美元。

Illinois, California, New York are most severe as I understand it.

据我了解，伊利诺伊州、加利福尼亚州和纽约州的情况最为严重。

I just read in the paper this morning that Hawaii has limited school weeks to four days.

我今天早上刚刚在报纸上读到夏威夷将学校周数限制为四天。

And I gather there's something like a dozen states that have authorized local school boards to reduce school weeks.

据我所知，大约有十几个州已授权当地学校董事会减少上课周数。

And when you first looked at the budget, did you suspect that this was the state that it was in?

当您第一次查看预算时，您是否怀疑这就是预算的状态？

Were you surprised when you first got into the numbers?

当你第一次接触这些数字时，你是否感到惊讶？

Yes.

是的。

I didn't know how serious the problem was.

我不知道问题有多严重。

I didn't realize that the state had been faking balanced budgets for so many years.

我没有意识到国家多年来一直在伪造平衡预算。

This is one of the most alarming things that Ravitch found, and it bears some explaining.

这是拉维奇发现的最令人震惊的事情之一，需要一些解释。

During the previous decade of prosperity, the state had committed itself to spending certain amounts of money on education, and state police, and healthcare, and all the other things that a state pays for.

在过去十年的繁荣时期，国家承诺在教育、国家警察、医疗保健以及国家支付的所有其他方面投入一定数量的资金。

But it made those commitments without actually having enough revenue to pay for all of it.

但它做出了这些承诺，但实际上没有足够的收入来支付所有费用。

And so every year, there was a shortfall, a gap, and every year, the state had to figure out ways to plug that hole.

因此，每年都会出现短缺、缺口，每年，国家都必须想出办法来填补这个漏洞。

And rather than come up with steady revenue sources, the state would invent all kinds of shenanigans to do it, what they call, one-shots.

国家不会想出稳定的收入来源，而是会发明各种恶作剧来做到这一点，他们称之为一次性的。

Like when Blue Cross Blue Shield went private, a billion dollars went to the state, or they borrowed against the winnings from a tobacco lawsuit, or they sold state property.

就像蓝十字蓝盾公司私有化时一样，十亿美元归国家所有，或者他们以烟草诉讼的赢利为抵押借款，或者出售国有财产。

The most famous example of that is when New York sold Attica prison to a private company for some quick cash, and then had to pay that company rent each year to keep using the prison.

最著名的例子是，纽约将阿提卡监狱出售给一家私人公司以获取快速现金，然后必须每年向该公司支付租金才能继续使用该监狱。

Lots of states resort to these one time gimmicks.

许多州都诉诸这些一次性的伎俩。

Idaho is delaying $135 million in Medicaid payments it owes nursing homes and hospitals.

爱达荷州推迟了其欠疗养院和医院的 1.35 亿美元医疗补助付款。

New Jersey, Colorado, and Kansas put off payments that they owed state pension funds.

新泽西州、科罗拉多州和堪萨斯州推迟支付其欠国家养老基金的款项。

Even during good times, they did that.

即使在美好时光，他们也这么做了。

That's a common one.

这是一个常见的。

Sometimes states will push a payday for state employees into the next fiscal year.

有时，各州会将政府雇员的发薪日推迟到下一个财政年度。

Yes, in Arizona, they sold the Capitol and leased it back to plug a hole in an operating deficit.

是的，在亚利桑那州，他们出售了国会大厦并将其租回以弥补​​运营赤字。

So forever into the future, they'll have to pay rent on their own Capitol building?

那么在未来，他们将不得不为自己的国会大厦支付租金吗？

That's correct.

这是正确的。

Ira Glass To solve a short term problem?

Ira Glass 为了解决短期问题？

Yes.

是的。

So eventually, you only have one Capitol building.

所以最终，你只有一栋国会大厦。

Eventually, that's why this is not sustainable.

最终，这就是为什么这是不可持续的。

You run out of assets to sell.

您没有可供出售的资产。

But we did that in New York State during a period of unbelievable prosperity, because the political system was not willing either to cut expenditures or to impose enough taxes to pay for recurring expenses.

但我们在纽约州做到了这一点，当时正处于令人难以置信的繁荣时期，因为政治制度不愿意削减开支，也不愿意征收足够的税收来支付经常性开支。

This past year, the one-shot that saved New York State and many other states was something that you may not have realized was being used this way, the stimulus money passed by the Obama administration.

在过去的一年里，拯救了纽约州和许多其他州的一击，你可能没有意识到，奥巴马政府通过的刺激资金正被这样使用。

It allocated billions to go into the hands of state governments specifically to plug the gaping holes in their budgets.

它拨款数十亿美元进入州政府手中，专门用于填补预算中的漏洞。

In New York, it was 5 billion last year, 4 billion this year.

纽约去年是50亿，今年是40亿。

That money is scheduled to go away over the next two years.

这笔钱预计将在未来两年内消失。

Again, the governor's budget director, Bob Megna.

再次是州长预算总监鲍勃·梅格纳。

That exacerbates our situation in unprecedented ways.

这使我们的处境前所未有地恶化。

That really has gotten us through the last year.

这确实让我们度过了去年。

When that money goes away, we either cut that spending, or we have to figure out a way to replace that revenue.

当这笔钱消失时，我们要么削减支出，要么必须找到一种方法来替代收入。

Which means that New York needs a plan.

这意味着纽约需要一个计划。

Without it, the Jaws Chart shows that New York's deficit will grow from 9 billion this year, to 13 billion next year, to 60 billion in the next five years with no end in sight.

如果没有它，《大白鲨图》显示，纽约的赤字将从今年的 90 亿美元增长到明年的 130 亿美元，在未来五年内增长到 600 亿美元，而且看不到尽头。

And, the longer New York waits to fix the problem, the deeper the cuts in government services will have to be.

而且，纽约等待解决问题的时间越长，政府服务的削减幅度就越大。

Any reason not to start, whoever's in charge of this?

有什么理由不开始，谁负责这件事？

First of all, I apologize for sitting down, but it's, as I'm sure you'll appreciate, a hectic few weeks.

首先，我对坐下来表示歉意，但我相信你会理解，这几周很忙碌。

In March, at a press conference in Albany, Ravitch presented his plan to resolve, long term, the state's fiscal crisis.

三月，在奥尔巴尼举行的新闻发布会上，拉维奇提出了解决该州长期财政危机的计划。

Ravitch's proposal copies a few things from the successful scheme that fixed New York City's finances back in the '70s, like it would force the state to use what are called, Generally Accepted Accounting Principles.

拉维奇的提案复制了 70 年代修复纽约市财政的成功计划的一些内容，比如它将迫使该州使用所谓的公认会计原则。

Yes, it sounds crazy, but many cities and states, including Florida, Texas, Ohio, and New York, don't use those accounting rules that require you to have real revenue sources to cover your debts.

是的，这听起来很疯狂，但许多城市和州，包括佛罗里达州、德克萨斯州、俄亥俄州和纽约州，并不使用那些要求你有真正的收入来源来偿还债务的会计规则。

Switching to Generally Accepted Accounting Principles would make it much harder to do the one-shots and the one time gimmicks that have been used in the past to fix the budget in New York.

改用公认会计原则将使过去在纽约用来确定预算的一次性和一次性花招变得更加困难。

Ravitch's plan also has strict procedures for when the budget slides out of balance with a control board and special powers for the governor.

拉维奇的计划还规定了预算失衡时的严格程序，包括控制委员会和州长的特殊权力。

But the item that got the most attention in Ravitch's proposal was borrowing.

但拉维奇提案中最受关注的项目是借款。

Ravitch believed that, looking realistically the budget, it would be too politically painful for the legislature to make all the necessary cuts to balance the budget in just one year.

拉维奇认为，从现实的角度来看预算，立法机关在短短一年内进行所有必要的削减以平衡预算在政治上会过于痛苦。

And so, as a practical matter, he said, if the legislature felt a need to ramp down in four or five years to a balanced budget, his plan let them borrow money to help do it, 2 billion a year.

因此，他说，作为一个实际问题，如果立法机构认为有必要在四五年内削减预算以达到平衡预算，他的计划会让他们借钱来帮助实现这一目标，每年 20 亿美元。

I want to emphasize again, borrowing is never a good way of solving operating budget deficits.

我想再次强调，借贷从来都不是解决运营预算赤字的好方法。

But I also know that borrowing on a short term basis was an essential tool to get us out of the mess we were in in 1975.

但我也知道，短期借款是让我们摆脱 1975 年困境的重要工具。

Ravitch made it clear that this borrowing was only acceptable if it was part of his bigger plan to control the budget in the future, and if it came with harsh penalties attached if the overall budget went out of balance.

拉维奇明确表示，只有当这笔借款是他未来控制预算的更大计划的一部分，并且如果总体预算失衡时会受到严厉处罚，那么这笔借款才是可以接受的。

In the chaos of New York State politics, there was this sense, when Ravitch laid out this plan, that finally an adult had arrived in the room to restore some sanity-- at last, a nonpartisan approach, the only real solution on the table, tough medicine.

在纽约州政治的混乱中，当拉维奇提出这个计划时，有一种感觉，终于有一个成年人来到了房间里，以恢复一些理智——最后，一种无党派的方法，摆在桌面上的唯一真正的解决方案，一剂强硬的良药。

And after the pandemonium of the previous two years, for the Democrats who run both houses of the legislature and the governor's office by raising a serious long term solution could finally show voters that they weren't a bunch of Bozos.

在经历了前两年的混乱之后，对于掌管参众两院和州长办公室的民主党人来说，通过提出严肃的长期解决方案，最终可以向选民表明，他们不是一群笨蛋。

What happened next was nothing.

接下来发生的事情就没什么了。

I like many of the things that he proposes.

我喜欢他提出的许多事情。

I hold my breath on the borrowing.

我对借钱屏住了呼吸。

This is State Senator Tom Libous, a Republican.

我是州参议员汤姆·利布斯，共和党人。

Like other lawmakers that I interviewed in Albany, he fixated on the borrowing in Ravitch's plan, and said it made it unacceptable.

和我在奥尔巴尼采访的其他立法者一样，他关注的是拉维奇计划中的借款，并表示这是不可接受的。

Here's Republican Assemblyman Jim Hayes, and Republican Minority Leader Brian Kolb.

这是共和党众议员吉姆·海耶斯和共和党少数党领袖布莱恩·科尔布。

Almost all of the proposals that he has made are all good, but I think, unfortunately, he rolled out the proposals at the same time he rolled out a proposal to borrow $2 billion.

他提出的几乎所有建议都很好，但我认为，不幸的是，他在提出借款20亿美元的建议的同时也提出了这些建议。

Well, I've had several meetings with the lieutenant governor.

嗯，我和副州长有过几次会面。

I like him.

我喜欢他。

I really liked him up to the point he talked about borrowing.

我真的很喜欢他，直到他谈到借钱。

Keep in mind that this is the same legislature that has balanced its budgets for years using borrowing under Democrats and Republicans.

请记住，在民主党和共和党的领导下，这个立法机构多年来一直通过借贷来平衡预算。

And I actually heard the same from the Democrats.

我实际上从民主党那里听到了同样的说法。

Here are two of the most reform minded legislators in Albany, Assemblywoman Sandy Galef and State Senator Liz Kreuger.

以下是奥尔巴尼两位最具改革意识的立法者：女议员桑迪·加莱夫和州参议员利兹·克鲁格。

Well, I like the way he would do the accounting.

嗯，我喜欢他做会计的方式。

I'm not in favor of the borrowing.

我不赞成借钱。

The borrowing question.

借钱的问题。

The Senate, officially, has been on record as not accepting the borrowing.

据官方记录，参议院不接受借款。

Borrowing became the shorthand the politicians could use to dismiss the Ravitch plan, even though he wasn't advocating borrowing.

借款成为政客们用来驳回拉维奇计划的捷径，尽管他并不提倡借款。

He was just saying, if you have to, here's the one way it would be acceptable.

他只是说，如果必须的话，这是可以接受的一种方法。

Editorial writers condemned the borrowing.

社论作者谴责了这种借用行为。

Newspapers basically reduced the plan to its borrowing.

报纸基本上把计划简化为借钱。

And this year, when the press corps in the State Capitol did their annual musical review, a tradition that goes back over a hundred years with reporters playing the various state politicians on stage, the reporter playing Dick Ravitch, a Capitol vet named J.

今年，当记者团在州议会大厦进行年度音乐评论时，这一传统可以追溯到一百多年前，记者在舞台上扮演各州政客，记者扮演迪克·拉维奇（Dick Ravitch），一位名叫 J. 的国会退伍军人。

Gallagher, sang this number, which tells you a lot about the reputation that Ravitch was getting.

加拉格尔（Gallagher）演唱了这首歌，这告诉你很多关于拉维奇（Ravitch）所获得的声誉。

[SINGING TO THE TUNE OF "TRY TO REMEMBER"] Back in the '70s, I cooked up remedies so New York did not kick the bucket.

[唱着“TRY TO REMEMBER”的曲调] 早在 70 年代，我就制定了补救措施，这样纽约就不会死掉。

My plan was clever, a brilliant endeavor, and it is the plan that you now should follow.

我的计划很聪明，是一次辉煌的努力，这就是你现在应该遵循的计划。

You haven't tried it, but I have decided to borrow.

你还没试过，但我决定借用一下。

Then, it gets even more rich.

然后，它就会变得更加富有。

While the State Senate opposed any borrowing, the other house of the legislature, the State Assembly, decided to adopt the $2 billion borrowing that Ravitch said would be acceptable, but without the stringent controls that he said had to be tied to the borrowing.

虽然州参议院反对任何借款，但立法机关的另一议院州议会决定采用拉维奇表示可以接受的 20 亿美元借款，但没有他所说的必须与借款挂钩的严格控制。

The governor, meanwhile, who put Ravitch up to the task of fiscal reform, had his own priorities.

与此同时，让拉维奇承担财政改革任务的州长也有自己的优先事项。

His priority was trying to pass a budget which had no borrowing in it at all.

他的首要任务是试图通过一项根本没有借款的预算。

And he just had a few weeks to do that.

他只有几周的时间来做这件事。

And once the Assembly was using the Ravitch plan as the excuse to borrow, it became politically complicated to oppose the borrowing, but support the Ravitch plan.

一旦议会以拉维奇计划为借口借款，反对借款但支持拉维奇计划在政治上就变得复杂起来。

So while the governor didn't overtly turn his back on the plan, he didn't throw himself behind it either.

因此，虽然州长没有公开反对该计划，但他也没有全力支持该计划。

He didn't make any effort to sell it to legislators, or get it turned into law, which pretty much left the plan in icy limbo.

他没有做出任何努力将其推销给立法者，或将其变成法律，这几乎使该计划陷入了冰冷的困境。

Well, what I don't like is not the plan, but borrowing itself.

嗯，我不喜欢的不是计划，而是借用本身。

So I'm against that, but I think the lieutenant governor is as well.

所以我反对这一点，但我认为副州长也是如此。

When I interviewed Governor David Paterson, he was surprisingly sympathetic to the plan for somebody who had exiled it to limbo, even when it came to the borrowing.

当我采访大卫·帕特森州长时，他出人意料地同情这个计划，而这个计划却被搁置了，即使涉及到借款。

He said that he understood that Ravitch was just setting a ceiling if there had to be borrowing.

他说，他理解拉维奇只是在必须借款时设定一个上限。

And what happened to the lieutenant governor in his first year is what happens to all of us in Albany.

副州长第一年的遭遇就是我们奥尔巴尼所有人的遭遇。

The ceiling became the floor, because on Planet Albany, there is no gravity, and light bends right around the Capitol.

天花板变成了地板，因为在奥尔巴尼星球上，没有重力，光线在国会大厦周围弯曲。

So rather than people understanding that this was a way to control borrowing, the legislature viewed it as a ticket for $2 billion.

因此，立法机关并没有理解这是控制借贷的一种方式，而是将其视为 20 亿美元的一张门票。

And so, at some point, the governor makes clear he's not embracing the plan.

因此，在某个时候，州长明确表示他不支持该计划。

When do you find out about that?

你什么时候知道这件事的？

Does he talk to you about it privately?

他私下和你谈过这件事吗？

Do you see it?

你看到了吗？

Well, I take it emerged-- I don't remember precisely when-- He didn't criticize my plan.

好吧，我认为——我不记得具体是什么时候——他没有批评我的计划。

He just didn't support it.

他只是不支持而已。

Were you surprised?

你感到惊讶吗？

Richard Ravitch Was I surprised?

理查德·拉维奇 我很惊讶吗？

No, I actually felt that I didn't-- I wasn't able to convince him, and that maybe it was my failure.

不，我实际上觉得我没有——我无法说服他，也许这是我的失败。

Over the last few weeks, I've spent a lot of time trying to understand the politics of all this, why the legislators wouldn't embrace Ravitch's plan to show voters they were getting things under control.

在过去的几周里，我花了很多时间试图理解这一切的政治意义，为什么立法者不接受拉维奇的计划，向选民展示他们正在控制一切。

And I heard all kinds of explanations, on the record and off the record.

我听到了各种各样的解释，无论是公开的还是私下的。

Though some Republicans actually like the Ravitch plan and the fiscal order it imposes, it's just taken as a given that Republicans will vote as a group against any plan that comes from the Democrats.

尽管一些共和党人实际上喜欢拉维奇计划及其实施的财政秩序，但共和党人将作为一个群体投票反对民主党提出的任何计划，这只是被视为理所当然的事情。

That's been the pattern lately, like in Washington.

这就是最近的模式，就像在华盛顿一样。

As for the Democrats, some support big parts of the plan of course.

至于民主党，当然有些人支持该计划的大部分内容。

Others, I was told, don't want Generally Accepted Accounting Principles and transparency in budgeting.

有人告诉我，其他人不想要公认会计原则和预算透明度。

They like the current system where they can hide money and fudge things with last minute gimmicks.

他们喜欢当前的制度，在这种制度下，他们可以隐藏金钱并用最后一刻的花招来捏造事实。

Some don't want the governor to get extra power to cut budgets without their approval, which he would get under the Ravitch plan if the legislature is unable to come up with their own cuts or revenue.

一些人不希望州长在未经他们批准的情况下获得削减预算的额外权力，如果立法机关无法提出自己的削减或收入，他将根据拉维奇计划获得这一权力。

I was told that some Democrats are so fed up with the governor-- he's a lame duck at this point-- they don't want to give him a victory on anything, including the Ravitch plan.

有人告诉我，一些民主党人已经厌倦了州长——他在这一点上是一只跛脚鸭——他们不想让他在任何事情上取得胜利，包括拉维奇计划。

And finally, Liz Kreuger, the Chair of the Select Committee on Budget and Tax Reform, told me the political reality is a lot of legislators simply don't feel the sense of emergency the lieutenant governor feels about the budget.

最后，预算和税收改革特别委员会主席利兹·克鲁格告诉我，政治现实是很多立法者根本没有感受到副州长对预算的紧迫感。

It's not clear that the sky is, in fact, falling.

目前尚不清楚天是否真的正在塌陷。

Some people realize it's an emergency, and some people think, "Well, everybody has always said there were problems, but we get by.

有些人意识到这是紧急情况，有些人则想：“好吧，每个人都说存在问题，但我们都挺过来了。

Somehow we make it to the next year, and the next year, and the next year."

不知何故，我们能坚持到明年、再下一年、再下一年。”

They haven't yet understood the consequences.

他们还没有明白后果。

They think that if somehow they can get through this year, they'll worry about next year, next year.

他们认为，如果能以某种方式度过今年，他们就会担心明年、明年。

And that is irresponsible given the fact that next year the deficit is going to be as great, if not greater.

考虑到明年的赤字即使不是更大，也将同样巨大，这是不负责任的。

And what do people say to that when you talk to them about that?

当你和他们谈论这件事时，人们会怎么说？

So if they don't want the Ravitch plan, what are these legislators thinking should be done to get the state budget under control?

那么，如果他们不想要拉维奇计划，那么这些立法者认为应该采取什么措施来控制国家预算呢？

Well, to understand a little about that I turned to State Senator Ruben Diaz.

为了了解一点，我向州参议员鲁本·迪亚兹求助。

This week, Diaz nearly brought state government to a close by refusing to vote for the weekly emergency funding that's been keeping the state going for two months in the absence of a real budget.

本周，迪亚兹拒绝投票支持每周紧急资金，差点导致州政府破产，而该资金在没有实际预算的情况下使该州维持了两个月的运行。

Diaz voted no because the governor had inserted into the emergency bill deep cuts in the overall state budget, cuts that Diaz opposes.

迪亚兹投了反对票，因为州长在紧急法案中加入了对整个国家预算的大幅削减，而迪亚兹反对削减。

Last week, we cut services to the poor and the needy, all the hospitals in New York City.

上周，我们削减了纽约市所有医院对穷人和有需要的人的服务。

Those are the hospitals that the people that send me here use.

这些是送我来这里的人使用的医院。

I cut them.

我把它们切掉了。

What I'm doing, it doesn't feel right.

我正在做的事情，感觉不对劲。

How do you think that the state should balance the budget?

您认为国家应该如何平衡预算？

I am not a crazy person that only says, don't cut, don't cut.

我不是一个只会说“别剪，别剪”的疯子。

Because I understand that we, in the state of New York, have a fiscal crisis.

因为我知道我们纽约州正面临财政危机。

And I know that money has to be found somewhere, or we have to cut.

我知道必须在某个地方找到资金，否则我们就必须削减开支。

But I have presented two pieces of legislation--

但我提出了两项立法——

One of these, he explained, would streamline the way that taxes are delivered to the state from credit card purchases.

他解释说，其中之一将简化通过信用卡购买向国家缴纳税款的方式。

The other would let the state buy pharmaceuticals from Canada.

另一项则允许政府从加拿大购买药品。

Total savings, he says, $2 billion.

他说，总共节省了 20 亿美元。

He also wants to tax cigarettes sold on Indian reservations, something that's led to armed conflict and bloodshed when the states tried to impose it in the past.

他还想对在印度保留地销售的卷烟征税，过去各州试图征收该税时，这导致了武装冲突和流血事件。

That would save another billion or two.

这将节省另外一两个亿。

If you add my $3 billion or $4 billion, and you borrow 1 or 2 billion more, you don't need to cut anything.

如果你加上我的 30 亿美元或 40 亿美元，而你再借 1 或 20 亿美元，你不需要削减任何东西。

You have a balanced budget.

您有一个平衡的预算。

Can I ask you-- the numbers that the budget office in the governor's office have presented, and that the lieutenant governor presented, show that this year, there would be a $9 billion deficit, next year, $13 billion, and increasing every year until it's $60 billion.

我能问一下吗——州长办公室预算办公室和副州长提供的数字表明，今年赤字将达到 90 亿美元，明年将达到 130 亿美元，并且逐年增加，直至达到 600 亿美元。

Do you think those numbers are wrong?

你认为这些数字是错误的吗？

I don't know.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I don't know if they're real or not.

我不知道它们是真是假。

I know that people use scare tactics most of the time, trying to inflict pain and fear.

我知道人们大多数时候都会使用恐吓策略，试图造成痛苦和恐惧。

So I don't know how real it is.

所以我不知道它的真实性如何。

And when the lieutenant governor says that there's a structural problem in the budget, that every year there are more expenses than we're bringing in revenue, and that's increasing over the course of every year going forward, do you think he's right?

当副州长说预算存在结构性问题时，每年的支出都超过我们带来的收入，而且每年的支出都在增加，你认为他是对的吗？

Again, I am not in here to double guessing what people are saying.

再说一次，我来这里并不是为了双重猜测人们在说什么。

I'm here saying, we have other means, other ways, to balance the budget, not necessarily have to be on the back of the poor and the needy.

我在这里想说的是，我们有其他手段、其他方式来平衡预算，不一定要支持穷人和有需要的人。

Ravitch is an old school liberal.

拉维奇是一位老派自由主义者。

He not only idolized Franklin Roosevelt, he sits on the board of the Roosevelt Library, and owns an old WPA painting with scenes of The New Deal in action.

他不仅崇拜富兰克林·罗斯福，而且还是罗斯福图书馆的董事会成员，并拥有一幅 WPA 的旧画，上面画着新政的场景。

His first political appointment was in 1966 by LBJ to a commission on urban problems.

1966 年，林登·约翰逊 (LBJ) 首次任命他为城市问题委员会成员。

But he says we're in the worst economic contraction since Roosevelt's day.

但他表示，我们正处于自罗斯福时代以来最严重的经济萎缩之中。

And we're not bouncing back any time soon.

而且我们不会很快反弹。

We're in different waters, and the world is in different waters.

我们处于不同的水域，世界也处于不同的水域。

Just look at the stories in the paper about Greece, and Ireland, and Spain, and Chile.

只要看看报纸上关于希腊、爱尔兰、西班牙和智利的故事就知道了。

We have all been spending more money than we are collecting in taxes.

我们花的钱比我们收的税还多。

And so Ravitch has been going around telling people in private conversations, in public speeches that he's been rethinking, and he thinks we all need to rethink, what government can do.

因此，拉维奇一直在私下谈话和公开演讲中告诉人们，他一直在重新思考，他认为我们都需要重新思考政府可以做什么。

Here he is at a group called The Association for a Better New York.

他加入了一个名为“美好纽约协会”的组织。

You know most people go into politics because they want to help people.

你知道大多数人进入政界是因为他们想帮助别人。

And for years, that's what they've done.

多年来，他们就是这么做的。

They've tried to help education, make healthcare available for more people.

他们试图帮助教育，为更多人提供医疗保健。

All of those are noble things, and what people in politics have done and have done very effectively.

所有这些都是崇高的事情，政界人士已经做过并且做得非常有效。

But there's a new economic paradigm out there, a very unpleasant one as we all know.

但现在出现了一种新的经济模式，众所周知，这是一种非常令人不快的模式。

And the political paradigm has not yet changed enough to accommodate the fundamental changes that have happened to our economy.

政治范式还没有发生足够的变化来适应我们经济发生的根本性变化。

So Ravitch says that we need to have a conversation about what it is that we can afford.

所以拉维奇说我们需要讨论一下我们能负担得起什么。

When I ask what this means, he throws out all kinds of ideas.

当我问这意味着什么时，他抛出了各种各样的想法。

One in four New Yorkers, he says, qualifies for Medicaid.

他说，四分之一的纽约人有资格享受医疗补助。

Maybe those rules are too lenient.

也许这些规则太宽松了。

Maybe dozens of small school districts in the state should be consolidated to eliminate administration costs.

也许该州的数十个小型学区应该合并，以消除管理成本。

And then there are taxes.

然后还有税收。

Ravitch says we have to be careful, because higher taxes have driven people out of the state in the last decade.

拉维奇说我们必须小心，因为过去十年更高的税收迫使人们离开该州。

But he says there are some taxes that we should discuss.

但他说我们应该讨论一些税收。

Not only is nobody engaging in that conversation, Ravitch says that our politics seem incapable of handling a fiscal crisis of the size that we are facing.

拉维奇表示，不仅没有人参与这一对话，我们的政治似乎也无法应对我们所面临的如此规模的财政危机。

Politicians today need to either cut services or raise taxes, which are the exact opposite of the things that they are used to doing to get elected.

今天的政客需要要么削减服务，要么提高税收，这与他们过去为当选而采取的做法完全相反。

The one politician that I talked to who seemed to understand at a cellular level the new paradigm that Ravitch talks about, as fate have it, is the man who decided not to carry Ravitch's fiscal plan to victory, Governor David Paterson.

我采访过的一位政治家似乎从细胞层面理解了拉维奇所说的新范式，正如命运所安排的那样，他就是决定不让拉维奇的财政计划取得胜利的人，州长大卫·帕特森。

I think something very alarming is happening, because the only group that ever seems to understand me when I'm talking to them-- and it doesn't matter whether they're Republicans or Democrats-- are other governors.

我认为一些非常令人震惊的事情正在发生，因为当我与他们交谈时，唯一能理解我的群体——无论他们是共和党人还是民主党人——是其他州长。

No one wants to accept that our state is running out of money.

没有人愿意接受我们的国家资金即将耗尽的事实。

And so the building can literally be burning, and they're still talking about programs that they want you to fund.

因此，建筑物实际上可能正在燃烧，而他们仍在谈论他们希望你资助的项目。

Paterson says the worst has been when he's had to cut programs that he personally supported back when he was a legislator from Harlem.

帕特森说，最糟糕的是他不得不削减他在担任哈莱姆区议员时亲自支持的项目。

I was an advocate on issues such as domestic violence, and child sexual abuse, on hate crimes, and a lot of the social programs, and a supporter of some of the same individuals I've had to say no to.

我是家庭暴力、儿童性虐待、仇恨犯罪和许多社会项目等问题的倡导者，也是一些我不得不拒绝的人的支持者。

And I think because I'm saying no, and I'm a former supporter and friend, it's like a civil war.

我认为因为我说不，而且我是前支持者和朋友，所以这就像一场内战。

I've been insulted personally, and basically abused by some of those who have not liked the decisions that I've had to make.

我个人受到了侮辱，基本上是被一些不喜欢我必须做出的决定的人虐待。

I think that my mind hasn't changed.

我想我的想法没有改变。

I think my reality has changed, and I'm in the same circumstance that Lieutenant Governor Ravitch describes.

我认为我的现实已经改变，我正处于副州长拉维奇所描述的同样情况。

We may have to step back and take a little different look at what government can accomplish right now.

我们可能必须退后一步，以不同的方式看待政府现在可以实现的目标。

Because we've asked government to take on too many tasks that cost too much money.

因为我们要求政府承担太多的任务，花费太多的钱。

And here we are in a quagmire in many ways because of it.

正因如此，我们在很多方面都陷入了泥潭。

Getting out of that quagmire, it's hard to stand on principles.

要走出这个泥潭，坚持原则是很困难的。

Just last week, there was news out of Albany that to balance the budget, the governor and the legislative leaders, who'd spent the last few months adamantly opposed to any and all borrowing and had rejected Ravitch's plan mainly on that basis, figured out a way to patch another few billion into the budget by borrowing against state pension funds.

就在上周，从奥尔巴尼传来消息称，为了平衡预算，州长和立法领导人在过去几个月里一直坚决反对任何借贷，并主要以此为基础拒绝了拉维奇的计划，他们找到了一种方法，通过向国家养老基金借款来补充预算中的另外几十亿美元。

Though officially, they don't call it borrowing.

尽管官方称其为借用，但他们并不称之为借用。

Ravitch was not surprised.

拉维奇并不感到惊讶。

Coming up, as promised, crusaders trying to do the right thing for their country during a budget crisis, and this time, actually succeeding.

正如所承诺的那样，十字军战士们试图在预算危机期间为自己的国家做正确的事情，而这一次，他们实际上取得了成功。

That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.

一分钟后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。

It's This American Life.

这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Today on our show, the social contract, and what happens to it during dire economic times.

今天在我们的节目中，社会契约以及在经济不景气时期它会发生什么。

We've arrived at Act Two of our show.

我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。

Act Two, If You Were Stranded on a Desert Island and Could Only Bring One Economic Plan.

第二幕，如果你被困在荒岛上，只能带一份经济计划。

In this act, we turn to another country where people reached a crisis point and had to reevaluate how to run the country.

在这一幕中，我们转向另一个国家，那里的人们已经达到了危机点，不得不重新评估如何治理国家。

The country is Barbados.

这个国家就是巴巴多斯。

Alex Blumberg tells what happened.

亚历克斯·布隆伯格讲述了发生的事情。

When you hear the story of Barbados in the 1990s, you'll think yourself, "I have never heard of people getting together and doing what this entire nation decided to do.

当您听到 20 世纪 90 年代巴巴多斯的故事时，您会想：“我从未听说过人们聚集在一起，做整个国家决定做的事情。

It's remarkable." And it's even more remarkable when you compare Barbados to one of its neighbors, Jamaica.

这很了不起。”当您将巴巴多斯与其邻国之一牙买加进行比较时，这一点就更引人注目了。

The two countries should be very similar.

这两个国家应该很相似。

Both were colonized by the British.

两者都曾被英国殖民。

Both gained independence in the mid-1960s, and then became parliamentary-style democracies.

两国都在 20 世纪 60 年代中期获得独立，然后成为议会式民主国家。

And both started from essentially the same place economically.

两者的经济出发点基本相同。

One wasn't much richer than the other.

其中一个并不比另一个富有多少。

But to give you a sense of life in Jamaica today, let's go to the side of a road next a little strip mall as a couple of women selling fruit out of cardboard boxes.

但为了让您了解今天牙买加的生活，让我们去路边一个小购物中心旁边，看到几个妇女在用纸板箱卖水果。

And they say life here is so bad that the police-- the metroman they call them-- steal from them regularly.

他们说这里的生活太糟糕了，以至于警察——他们称之为地铁管理员——经常偷窃他们的东西。

The metroman come here, [UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE]

地铁员过来了，[难以理解的短语]

They take away our stuff and lock we up.

他们拿走了我们的东西并将我们锁起来。

Wait.

等待。

The police come and take away your stuff?

警察来拿走你的东西？

Yes.

是的。

We have to beg [UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE]

我们必须乞求[难以理解的短语]

We don't get it back.

我们收不回来。

Them carry out their children's homes and take it for themselves.

他们把孩子的家夺走，据为己有。

Compare that to this.

与此比较。

Alex Blumberg Now, we're in a mall in Barbados, which looks basically like a mall in the United States.

Alex Blumberg 现在，我们身处巴巴多斯的一家购物中心，它看起来基本上就像美国的购物中心。

Tell me about life in Barbados.

告诉我在巴巴多斯的生活。

How is it?

如何？

For me, it's great absolutely.

对我来说，这绝对很棒。

Absolutely fantastic.

绝对棒极了。

And why do you say that?

为什么这么说？

Man Well, over the years, we have had excellent governance in terms of the people who run the country.

伙计，多年来，我们在治理国家的人民方面实行了出色的治理。

We've had--

我们有过——

I'm just laughing because you never, ever hear anybody say that.

我只是笑，因为你从来没有听过任何人这么说过。

I'm just trying to imagine going out in the United States.

我只是想想象一下去美国的情景。

This is a fact in Barbados.

这是巴巴多斯的事实。

You just have to compare us to the rest of the world.

您只需将我们与世界其他地区进行比较即可。

Some quick statistics for comparison.

一些用于比较的快速统计数据。

Five decades after independence, median income in Barbados-- twice what it is in Jamaica.

独立五年后，巴巴多斯的收入中位数是牙买加的两倍。

Literacy rates in Barbados are over 95%.

巴巴多斯的识字率超过 95%。

In Jamaica, it's estimated that 1/5 of the population is functionally illiterate.

在牙买加，估计有 1/5 的人口是功能性文盲。

And Jamaica has one of the highest murder rates in the world, while Barbados is near the bottom.

牙买加是世界上谋杀率最高的国家之一，而巴巴多斯则接近垫底。

So what did Barbados do so right?

那么巴巴多斯做对了什么？

Well, to answer that question, come with me now to the 1990s.

好吧，为了回答这个问题，请跟我一起回到 20 世纪 90 年代。

[MUSIC - "EVERYBODY DANCE NOW" BY C&C MUSIC FACTORY] This is C&C Music Factory's monster hit from 1991.

[音乐 - C&C MUSIC FACTORY 的《EVERYBODY DANCE NOW》] 这是 C&C Music Factory 1991 年的热门歌曲。

It actually has nothing to do with Barbados, but 1991 is when our story begins.

其实和巴巴多斯没什么关系，但1991年是我们的故事开始的时候。

And as the '90s were getting under way, Barbados was doing OK.

随着 90 年代的到来，巴巴多斯的表现还不错。

But then, oil prices went up.

但随后，油价上涨。

The world went into recession.

世界陷入衰退。

Tourism is a huge industry on Barbados and foreigners weren't taking as many beach vacations, which created a big, big problem for Barbados.

旅游业是巴巴多斯的一个巨大产业，外国人没有那么多的海滩度假，这给巴巴多斯带来了一个很大的问题。

When you're a small country, you rely on the rest of the world to make almost everything you need, toothpaste, or wheat, or C&C Music Factory CDs.

当你是一个小国家时，你几乎依赖世界其他地方来生产你需要的一切，牙膏、小麦、或者 C&C 音乐工厂 CD。

And if you want to buy things from say, the US, some importer somewhere in your country has to have actual US dollars to pay for those things.

如果你想从美国购买东西，你所在国家某个地方的进口商必须有实际的美元来支付这些东西。

So where do they get these dollars?

那么他们从哪里得到这些美元呢？

Well, this is an over simplification, but basically, Americans come to Barbados and spend them on hotels and coconut drinks, or importers from America buy Barbados rum and pay in dollars.

嗯，这是一个过于简单化的说法，但基本上，美国人来到巴巴多斯，把钱花在酒店和椰子饮料上，或者来自美国的进口商购买巴巴多斯朗姆酒并用美元支付。

And then, Barbados can turn around and spend those dollars on stuff from America.

然后，巴巴多斯可以转身用这些美元购买来自美国的东西。

It's iron clad.

真是铁打的

No foreign dollars, no goods from abroad.

没有外汇，没有来自国外的货物。

This is a problem a lot of countries get into.

这是很多国家都会遇到的问题。

You may have heard the term foreign exchange crisis.

您可能听说过外汇危机这个词。

That's what this is.

就是这样。

And in 1991, Barbados was facing one.

1991 年，巴巴多斯面临着一场危机。

The first people who knew this were employees of The Barbados Central Bank where the supply of American dollars and all those other foreign currencies had been steadily dwindling.

第一个知道这一点的人是巴巴多斯中央银行的员工，该银行的美元和所有其他外币的供应量一直在稳步减少。

DeLisle Worrell is the Governor of The Barbados Central Bank.

德莱尔·沃雷尔 (DeLisle Worrell) 是巴巴多斯中央银行行长。

In about mid-1991, we had no foreign exchange reserves.

大约在1991年中期，我们没有外汇储备。

Yeah, maybe about $10 million or something like that.

是的，大概是 1000 万美元左右。

$10 million to a central banker, even one on a tiny Caribbean island, that is nothing.

1000 万美元对于一位央行行长来说，即使是加勒比小岛上的央行行长，也不算什么。

And so, the Barbadian government did what almost every government in this situation does, it went to the IMF, The International Monetary Fund, and asked for a foreign currency loan.

因此，巴巴多斯政府做了几乎所有政府在这种情况下都会做的事情，它向国际货币基金组织寻求外币贷款。

The idea being, we'll borrow a couple hundred million dollars US now, and then, when Americans start coming back to our beaches, we'll pay you back in dollars.

我们的想法是，我们现在借几亿美元，然后，当美国人开始回到我们的海滩时，我们会用美元偿还给你。

The IMF did what it always does.

国际货币基金组织做了它一贯做的事情。

It said, "Sure.

它说：“当然。

We'll give you the money, but there are strings attached so you don't get into this situation again.

我们会给你钱，但有附加条件，这样你就不会再陷入这种情况了。

You need to rearrange your economy so you don't need as many foreign dollars, which means basically, you want your citizens to spend less money on stuff from abroad."

你需要重新安排你的经济，这样你就不需要那么多的外汇，这基本上意味着你希望你的公民花更少的钱购买国外的东西。”

But since almost everything in Barbados comes from abroad, that basically amounts to the entire nation of Barbados needs to spend less.

但由于巴巴多斯几乎所有东西都来自国外，这基本上意味着巴巴多斯整个国家需要减少支出。

And the way you keep people from spending is sort of dreadful.

而你阻止人们花钱的方式有点可怕。

You need them to get poorer.

你需要他们变得更穷。

So here's how you do that.

所以这就是你如何做到这一点。

You can devalue your currency.

您可以让您的货币贬值。

So if it costs five Barbados dollars to import a C&C Music Factory CD, now it would cost 10; ditto for bread, toothpaste-- Prices for everything go up.

因此，如果进口一张 C&C Music Factory CD 需要 5 巴巴多斯元，现在则需要 10 元；面包、牙膏也是如此——所有东西的价格都在上涨。

Or, you can cut government services, which-- think about it-- means all kinds of people have less money in their pockets.

或者，你可以削减政府服务，想想看，这意味着各种人口袋里的钱都会减少。

Neither, of course, is very popular.

当然，两者都不是很受欢迎。

I am Leroy Trotman.

我是勒罗伊·特罗特曼。

I am the general secretary of the Barbados Workers' Union.

我是巴巴多斯工人联盟的秘书长。

Leroy Trotman is often called, Sir Roy.

勒罗伊·特罗特曼通常被称为“罗伊爵士”。

Knighthood seemed pretty common in Barbados.

在巴巴多斯，骑士身份似乎很常见。

I ran into a couple of knights while I was there.

我在那里时遇到了几个骑士。

And Sir Roy was one of several people called to an emergency meeting by the prime minister in mid-1991 to discuss the crisis and what the IMF wanted Barbados to do.

罗伊爵士是 1991 年中期被总理召集参加紧急会议的几位人士之一，会议讨论了这场危机以及国际货币基金组织希望巴巴多斯采取的行动。

Now Sir Roy, and most people in Barbados at the time, had no love for the IMF.

现在，罗伊爵士和当时巴巴多斯的大多数人都对国际货币基金组织不感兴趣。

They'd seen what had happened to other countries in the Caribbean when the IMF got involved, higher unemployment, massive currency devaluations, sometimes riots and violence.

他们看到了当国际货币基金组织介入时加勒比地区其他国家所发生的事情：失业率上升、货币大规模贬值，有时甚至出现骚乱和暴力。

It seemed everywhere the IMF went, trouble followed.

似乎国际货币基金组织所到之处，麻烦就接踵而至。

Fairly or not, they blamed the IMF and the terms it imposed on countries it lent money to.

不管公平与否，他们都指责国际货币基金组织及其向贷款国施加的条件。

We took a position that we would see ourselves as a country which was being invaded by the IMF.

我们的立场是，我们将自己视为一个正在被国际货币基金组织入侵的国家。

And our approach thereafter was that we had to resist this invasion.

此后我们的做法是我们必须抵抗这种入侵。

And that's what we actually called it.

这就是我们实际上所说的。

An invasion?

入侵？

Leroy Trotman Yeah, the trade union called it that.

Leroy Trotman 是的，工会就是这么称呼它的。

But the unions knew that they'd need help resisting the IMF.

但工会知道他们需要帮助来抵抗国际货币基金组织。

And so, they hatched what seems like a fairly strange plan for a trade union.

因此，他们为工会制定了一个看似相当奇怪的计划。

They decided to band together, not just with other unions, but with management as well, the business councils, and chambers of commerce on Barbados, to join together to confront the IMF and set the terms of the loan.

他们决定不仅与其他工会联合起来，还与巴巴多斯的管理层、商业委员会和商会联合起来，共同对抗国际货币基金组织并制定贷款条款。

Tony Walcott is the executive director of the Barbados Employers' Confederation, a business group.

托尼·沃尔科特是商业团体巴巴多斯雇主联合会的执行董事。

And at first, he says, the employers were dubious.

他说，一开始雇主们持怀疑态度。

I think employers, traditionally, didn't see themselves as being part of the problem, if you want to put it that way.

我认为，传统上，雇主并不认为自己是问题的一部分，如果你想这么说的话。

But it was so serious that something had to be done.

但事态如此严重，必须采取一些措施。

And this is when all parties came together and said, "Look, devaluation is not an option.

就在此时，各方齐聚一堂并表示：“看，贬值不是一个选择。

Massive wage cuts or retrenchments in public service was not an option."

大规模减薪或削减公共服务不是一个选择。”

And so, Sir Roy Trotman, representing workers, found himself side by side with Tony Walcott's group, representing managers and business owners, in front of the IMF to press the case that some of the IMF solutions would do more damage than good.

因此，代表工人的罗伊·特罗特曼爵士发现自己与代表管理者和企业主的托尼·沃尔科特团队并肩在国际货币基金组织面前提出这一观点，即国际货币基金组织的一些解决方案弊大于利。

We told the IMF, for example, that we would not agree to a larger size of classrooms.

例如，我们告诉国际货币基金组织，我们不会同意扩大教室规模。

They wanted to double the size of classrooms.

他们希望将教室的面积扩大一倍。

They wanted to have people going to a hospital have to pay for services.

他们希望去医院的人们必须支付服务费用。

And our position was that we were going to be under an IMF program for awhile, but we were going to come out from it.

我们的立场是，我们将在一段时间内接受国际货币基金组织的计划，但我们将摆脱它。

And that when we came back out, our people had to be healthy, and they had to be educated, and ready to take on the job of building the country again.

当我们回来时，我们的人民必须健康，他们必须接受教育，并准备好再次承担建设国家的工作。

And the IMF was persuaded by us.

国际货币基金组织被我们说服了。

I think the government was also persuaded.

我想政府也被说服了。

The employers were side by side with us in these arguments.

在这些争论中，雇主们与我们站在一起。

These arguments stretched on for months, the employers and employees on one side, the IMF on the other, the government sort of stuck in between.

这些争论持续了数月，一方是雇主和雇员，另一方是国际货币基金组织，政府则夹在中间。

The main sticking point-- wage cuts.

主要症结是——减薪。

Remember, lower wages would mean people would buy less from abroad, which would mean they'd need fewer US dollars.

请记住，较低的工资意味着人们会减少从国外购买商品，这意味着他们需要更少的美元。

So the government was proposing a big wage cut, which the unions and employers, together, opposed.

因此，政府提议大幅削减工资，但遭到工会和雇主的共同反对。

They staged a general strike, and held a massive two-day demonstration, the largest in Barbados history.

他们举行了总罢工，并举行了为期两天的大规模示威活动，这是巴巴多斯历史上规模最大的一次。

It's estimated that 10% of the island's population took to the streets.

据估计，岛上有 10% 的人口走上街头。

Here's Sir Roy Trotman addressing the crowd at that march.

这是罗伊·特罗特曼爵士在游行中向人群发表的讲话。

Let me tell you, ladies and gentlemen, [CHEERING] the people marched against the walls of Jericho.

让我告诉你们，女士们先生们，人们[欢呼]向耶利哥城墙游行。

And because the people had the will to march, the walls of Jericho fell.

由于人们有游行的意愿，耶利哥的城墙倒塌了。

But in the end, the speeches, the general strike, the 30,000 marchers in the street, could not contradict the basic reality that the country of Barbados would run out of money unless it figured out a way to get its people to spend less.

但最终，演讲、总罢工、街上的三万名游行者，都无法与巴巴多斯这个国家将耗尽资金的基本现实相矛盾，除非它找到一种方法让人民减少开支。

And so the government, under pressure from the IMF, insisted on an 8% pay cut for all public sector workers across the board.

因此，政府在国际货币基金组织的压力下，坚持要求所有公共部门工作人员全面减薪 8%。

And it's at this point that things depart from the usual script where each side digs in for a brutal war of attrition.

正是在这一点上，事情偏离了通常的剧本，双方都在进行残酷的消耗战。

Sir Roy and the leaders of the other unions knew that fighting on-- more strikes, more demonstrations, which might get out of hand and lead to violence-- all of that could kill an already fragile tourist industry.

罗伊爵士和其他工会的领导人知道，继续战斗——更多的罢工、更多的示威，可能会失控并导致暴力——所有这些都可能会扼杀本已脆弱的旅游业。

So they went back to their members, and in meeting hall after meeting hall, all over Barbados, explained to the union rank and file, "We're sorry, but this is the deal."

于是他们回到了他们的会员那里，在巴巴多斯各地的一个又一个的会议厅里，向工会普通成员解释说：“我们很抱歉，但事情就是这样。”

Do you remember a specific meeting in a hall where you felt like, "Man, what am I going to tell these people?"

您是否还记得在大厅里举行的一次特定会议，您当时的感觉是：“伙计，我要告诉这些人什么？”

Every time I stood up.

每次我站起来。

[LAUGHTER] It was difficult.

[笑声]这很困难。

I mean sometimes it didn't become easy to go into groups, because people told you about your heritage.

我的意思是，有时加入群体并不容易，因为人们告诉你你的传统。

Some of them had wishes for your future that you didn't exactly agree with.

他们中的一些人对你的未来有一些愿望，但你并不完全同意。

But the job had to be done, and if you are leader, you have to lead.

但工作必须完成，如果你是领导者，你就必须领导。

Yes, we effectively agreed to an 8% pay cut.

是的，我们实际上同意减薪 8%。

Here's Dennis de Peiza, head of another union organization.

这是丹尼斯·德佩萨，另一个工会组织的负责人。

We had to choose between the lesser of two evils, either taking a pay cut, or having many Barbadians on the street without a job.

我们必须在两害相权取其轻，要么减薪，要么让许多巴巴多斯人失业。

To put it in a very simplistic way, all we said, "Save Barbados." Two words, and we had the interest of the country paramount.

简而言之，我们所说的就是“拯救巴巴多斯”。两个字，我们把国家利益放在第一位。

The Barbados workforce in the trade union movement took a very patriotic stance.

巴巴多斯工人在工会运动中采取了非常爱国的立场。

And even now, I still feel a sense of pride that the workers in Barbados rallied behind us, not 100%, but to the great level that they did.

即使现在，我仍然感到自豪，巴巴多斯的工人们团结在我们身后，虽然不是100%，但达到了他们所做的伟大水平。

And the employers were with us step by step in all of this.

在这一切过程中，雇主们都与我们站在一起。

That last part is important.

最后一部分很重要。

The self-sacrifice was contagious.

这种自我牺牲具有感染力。

If the unions could go against their very reason for existence and lend their grudging support to wage cuts, then the business community could go against the thing it held most dear, profits.

如果工会可以违背其存在的理由并勉强支持减薪，那么商界就可以违背其最珍视的东西——利润。

Here's Tony Walcott who represents the businesses.

这是企业代表托尼·沃尔科特。

The mercantile community did was say, "Look, we will accept a lower margin, or a lessening margin, just to be able to hold prices." You kept the retail price fixed at a number.

商业界确实说过，“看，我们将接受较低的利润，或减少的利润，只是为了能够保持价格。”您将零售价固定在一个数字。

So it eroded your margin a bit.

所以它稍微侵蚀了你的利润。

So here you are.

所以你在这里。

The price of oil is going up.

石油价格正在上涨。

So that means that the price of all sorts of other things are going up, because everything is tied to oil And instead of raising it-- that level-- they just took it.

所以这意味着其他各种东西的价格都在上涨，因为一切都与石油挂钩，他们没有提高价格——那个水平——而是接受了它。

Instead of taking 50--

而不是拿50——

It ate into their margins.

它蚕食了他们的利润。

Alex Blumberg So instead of getting 50%, they were going to get 40%, 30%, something like that?

Alex Blumberg 那么他们不会得到 50%，而是会得到 40%、30%，类似的东西？

Yes, that's correct.

是的，这是正确的。

That's correct.

这是正确的。

Well, as Sir Roy said, nobody wanted the devaluation, and the mantra was, "Save Barbados." And people were just prepared to tighten their belts a bit and ride out the rough patch that we were going through.

好吧，正如罗伊爵士所说，没有人希望货币贬值，而口号是“拯救巴巴多斯”。人们只是准备勒紧裤腰带，渡过我们正在经历的艰难时期。

Workers and employers came up with other ideas as well.

工人和雇主也提出了其他想法。

For example, remember the world was in recession at this time.

例如，请记住当时世界正处于衰退之中。

So layoffs were already up in Barbados.

因此，巴巴多斯已经开始裁员。

These wage cuts were going to make that even worse.

这些工资削减将使情况变得更糟。

So the unions and employers came up with an idea to try to reduce the impact of these layoffs, or as they were termed, retrenchments.

因此，工会和雇主想出了一个想法，试图减少这些裁员或所谓的紧缩的影响。

Again, here's Tony Walcott with the business community.

托尼·沃尔科特再次与商界人士交谈。

We started to develop tools like insisting that if there were going to be retrenchments in a household, both bread winners would not be retrenched.

我们开始开发一些工具，比如坚持认为，如果一个家庭要裁员，两个养家糊口的人都不会被裁员。

At least one had to be retained to ensure that there was money coming in.

至少必须保留一名才能确保有钱进来。

Everyone chipped in.

大家都纷纷插手。

Even pension funds sold off their foreign assets, American stocks and bonds, as a way of bringing American dollars back into the system.

甚至养老基金也出售了其外国资产、美国股票和债券，作为将美元带回体系的一种方式。

In the end, this collective sacrifice worked.

最终，这种集体牺牲发挥了作用。

The recession ended.

经济衰退结束了。

People came back to spend their vacations in Barbados, and the Barbadian economy continued to grow.

人们回到巴巴多斯度假，巴巴多斯经济持续增长。

Within five years, Barbados had paid back its loan to the IMF, and real wages were higher than they were before the 8% pay cut.

五年内，巴巴多斯偿还了国际货币基金组织的贷款，实际工资高于减薪8%之前的水平。

And Barbados society seemed permanently altered.

巴巴多斯社会似乎发生了永久性的改变。

These meetings between employers, employees, and government were so effective that they became formalized into what's called the Social Partnership.

雇主、雇员和政府之间的这些会议非常有效，以至于它们被正式化为所谓的社会伙伴关系。

I was actually in Barbados during one such meeting, the yearly gathering of all three groups, which is called the Week of Excellence.

事实上，我在巴巴多斯参加了一次这样的会议，这是所有三个团体的年度聚会，被称为“卓越周”。

Tony Walcott, who represented the employers, and Sir Roy and Dennis de Peiza, who represented labor, were all there together in the same room when I was talking to them.

当我与代表雇主的托尼·沃尔科特（Tony Walcott）以及代表劳工的罗伊爵士和丹尼斯·德佩萨（Dennis de Peiza）一起在同一个房间里时，他们都在同一个房间里。

And what they do during these meetings is essentially try and see things from each other's point of view.

他们在这些会议期间所做的本质上是尝试从彼此的角度看待问题。

For example, hotel management is always like, "Be extra nice to the guests or they'll take their vacations in Antigua." And labor is like, "Uh, I'm on my lunch break." The Social Partnership tries to get labor and management to recognize their common interests in keeping tourists coming to Barbados; for example, this new pilot program they've started to improve productivity in the hotel industry.

例如，酒店管理层总是说，“对客人格外友善，否则他们会去安提瓜岛度假。”分娩就像是，“呃，我正在午休。”社会伙伴关系试图让劳工和管理层认识到他们在吸引游客来到巴巴多斯方面的共同利益；例如，他们开始的这个新试点计划是为了提高酒店业的生产力。

Basically, that means to get the staff to provide better service to the guests, but also to reduce waste, be more profitable for the hotel.

基本上，这意味着让员工为客人提供更好的服务，同时也减少浪费，为酒店带来更多利润。

Again, here's Tony Walcott.

托尼·沃尔科特又来了。

If they recognize that their reward is going to be based on efficient use of, let's say cleaning supplies.

如果他们认识到他们的回报将基于有效使用清洁用品。

hence, any gains you're able to make is being paid as a productivity bonus.

因此，您能够获得的任何收益都将作为生产力奖金支付。

So basically, what you're doing is you're establishing what exists on Wall Street, whereas if people have a good year, they get a bonus.

所以基本上，你所做的就是建立华尔街现有的东西，而如果人们度过了美好的一年，他们就会得到奖金。

You're putting it on the level of the gas station attendant, and the chamber maid, and people in the hotel service, and the bartender.

你把它放在加油站服务员、女服务员、酒店服务人员和调酒师的层面上。

That's correct.

这是正确的。

It's being based on output.

它基于输出。

Now we're staying at the Hilton.

现在我们住在希尔顿酒店。

If I talk to the person who's cleaning my room at the Hilton, will they be familiar with this?

如果我和希尔顿打扫房间的人交谈，他们会熟悉这一点吗？

Yes, because Hilton is in the pilot scheme.

是的，因为希尔顿正在试点计划中。

This is O'Neal, a Hilton bartender I met.

这是奥尼尔，我认识的希尔顿调酒师。

He said that as part of this pilot scheme, employees at the Hilton go through lots of trainings where they're encouraged to think like their managers do, i.e. from the point of view of the customer.

他说，作为该试点计划的一部分，希尔顿的员工接受了大量培训，鼓励他们像经理一样思考，即从客户的角度思考。

Like if you're an employee, you put yourself in a guest situation.

就像如果你是一名员工，你就把自己置于客人的境地。

Well, you can be guests.

嗯，你可以做客人。

And you try to do like a role play on it-- you know what I'm meaning-- to get feedback on.

你试着像角色扮演一样——你知道我的意思——以获得反馈。

You know what I mean?

你知道我的意思？

That's how they do it.

他们就是这样做的。

And he was also saying there are productivity bonuses.

他还说有生产力奖金。

Do you know about that?

你知道吗？

Yeah.

是的。

Alex Blumberg And how does that work?

Alex Blumberg 那它是如何工作的呢？

Extra effort, and if you do something that goes beyond your job commitment, they give bonuses.

额外的努力，如果你做的事情超出了你的工作承诺，他们就会给予奖金。

Have you gotten a bonus?

你收到奖金了吗？

O'neal Yeah.

奥尼尔 是的。

I'm always going beyond.

我总是在超越。

It's part of the job.

这是工作的一部分。

I always do.

我总是这样。

And employers try to see things from labors' point of view, especially when they're in negotiations, and labor might not believe the claims management is making.

雇主试图从劳工的角度看问题，尤其是在谈判时，而劳工可能不相信管理层的说法。

Again, here's Tony Walcott, of the business community.

再次请来商界人士托尼·沃尔科特。

Several of the companies have opened up their financials to the union.

一些公司已向工会公开其财务状况。

These are private companies.

这些都是私营公司。

Their financials are not generally published, yet officers in these companies are prepared to sit with the union and to share financial information with the union.

他们的财务状况一般不会公布，但这些公司的管理人员准备与工会坐在一起，并与工会分享财务信息。

The union has been satisfied, based on the presentations we've made, that the companies do not have the ability to pay.

根据我们所做的介绍，工会确信这些公司没有能力支付费用。

But the key driver was we have to sustain existing employment levels.

但关键的驱动因素是我们必须维持现有的就业水平。

And if it means that we don't take a pay increase to be able to allow our brother to stay employed, that has been the driving force for both the employer and the workers' representative side.

如果这意味着我们不加薪就能让我们的兄弟继续就业，那么这就是雇主和工人代表双方的推动力。

For Tony Walcott, it all comes down to one simple thing, which, when he said it, I could not believe what I was hearing.

对于托尼·沃尔科特来说，这一切都归结为一件简单的事情，当他说这句话时，我简直不敢相信我所听到的。

Trust.

相信。

And to me, that is a key factor in the whole cohesion of the Social Partnership that we've got here.

对我来说，这是我们社会伙伴关系整体凝聚力的关键因素。

The reason I'm laughing is just because you represent the employers on Barbados.

我笑的原因只是因为你代表巴巴多斯的雇主。

And again, I'm just putting this in the American context.

再说一遍，我只是将其放在美国的背景下。

It's just sort of like-- I mean it's just hard to imagine an American leader of a business association talking about how much they trust the labor unions.

这有点像——我的意思是，很难想象一个美国商业协会的领导人会谈论他们对工会的信任程度。

It just doesn't seem possible, right?

这似乎不太可能，对吧？

No, but it's about trust.

不，但这关乎信任。

Alex Blumberg In trying to figure out how much the rest of the world can learn from Barbados, people I spoke to are divided.

亚历克斯·布隆伯格（Alex Blumberg）在试图弄清楚世界其他国家可以从巴巴多斯身上学到多少东西时，与我交谈过的人们意见不一。

Some point out that what Barbados did would only work in a tiny society.

有人指出，巴巴多斯的做法只适用于小社会。

It's only 300,000 people after all.

毕竟只有三十万人。

So it's harder to vilify the other side in negotiations.

所以在谈判中诽谤对方就更难了。

But others say that anyone facing this type of budget crisis, which today, includes Greeks, Spaniards, Hungarians, New Yorkers, to name just a few-- Anyone can do what Barbados did.

但其他人说，任何面临此类预算危机的人，包括希腊人、西班牙人、匈牙利人、纽约人等等，任何人都可以做巴巴多斯所做的事情。

Bring all sides together, talk, listen, and try to see things from each other's point of view.

将各方聚集在一起，交谈、倾听，并尝试从彼此的角度看待问题。

It's essential, they say, because if you don't, the long-term consequences can be devastating.

他们说，这是至关重要的，因为如果不这样做，长期后果可能是毁灭性的。

The long-term consequences look like Jamaica.

长期后果就像牙买加一样。

Jamaica in the mid-1970s faced the identical crisis Barbados faced in the '90s, a foreign exchange crisis.

20 世纪 70 年代中期的牙买加面临着与 90 年代巴巴多斯同样的危机，即外汇危机。

The Jamaican Central Bank had run almost completely out of foreign dollars.

牙买加中央银行几乎耗尽了所有外币。

The country had no money to buy the things it needed from abroad, and like Barbados, it was forced to turn to the IMF for a loan.

该国没有钱从国外购买所需的东西，像巴巴多斯一样，它被迫向国际货币基金组织寻求贷款。

Jamaica's leader at the time was a bright and charismatic man named Michael Manly, popular with the rich and the working class.

当时牙买加的领导人是一位聪明而有魅力的人，名叫迈克尔·曼利，深受富人和工人阶级的欢迎。

But unlike the leaders in Barbados, he didn't bring the country together to share the burden of becoming temporarily poorer.

但与巴巴多斯领导人不同的是，他并没有让整个国家团结起来，共同分担暂时变得贫穷的负担。

He didn't build trust between workers and business owners.

他没有在工人和企业主之间建立信任。

The thing that almost all middle class Jamaicans alive at the time remember-- in 1975, he made a famous speech saying that if Jamaicans didn't like what he was doing, there were five flights a day leaving for Miami.

当时几乎所有牙买加中产阶级都记得一件事——1975 年，他发表了一次著名的演讲，称如果牙买加人不喜欢他所做的事情，每天有 5 趟航班飞往迈阿密。

Thousands of middle class Jamaicans took his advice and left, including the guy I first heard this whole story of Jamaica and Barbados from, an economist named Peter Henry.

成千上万的牙买加中产阶级接受了他的建议并离开了，其中包括我第一次从经济学家彼得·亨利那里听到牙买加和巴巴多斯的整个故事。

He was nine when he moved to America with his parents.

他九岁时随父母移居美国。

He's now the dean of the business school at New York University where he takes a professional interest in what happened to his old country.

他现在是纽约大学商学院院长，他对他的祖国发生的事情非常感兴趣。

The exodus of foreign capital and middle class Jamaicans, that Peter was a part of, crippled the Jamaican economy.

外国资本和牙买加中产阶级的外流（彼得是其中的一部分）削弱了牙买加的经济。

It actually shrunk an average of 2% per year for 15 years in the '70s and '80s, a statistic that makes economists gasp.

事实上，在 70 年代和 80 年代的 15 年里，它平均每年萎缩 2%，这一统计数据让经济学家们惊叹不已。

And successive Jamaican governments faced with the declining tax revenues continued to borrow, so that today, almost 50% of the money the Jamaican government collects goes towards paying interest on debts from the past.

牙买加历届政府在税收收入下降的情况下继续举债，以至于如今，牙买加政府征收的资金中近 50% 用于支付过去债务的利息。

Here's Peter Henry.

这是彼得·亨利。

You tend to think about economic disasters as happening in autocratic countries where people are trying to fleece the populace.

你倾向于认为经济灾难发生在专制国家，那里的人们试图敲诈民众。

That isn't necessarily the case.

情况不一定如此。

This is a smart man, a man with a big heart, who meant to do well.

这是一个聪明的人，一个心胸宽广的人，他想做好事。

And this is why I think it's all the more powerful, the lesson.

这就是为什么我认为这个教训更加有力。

Even in places where governments are trying to do the right thing, and trying to actually empower their citizens, if they follow bad policies, there will be substantial, long-run consequences.

即使在政府试图做正确的事情并试图真正赋予公民权力的地方，如果他们遵循错误的政策，也会产生重大的长期后果。

Of course, in a crisis like the one Barbados and Jamaica faced that many governments around the world are facing right now, at the time it's implemented, bad policy can feel like good policy.

当然，在像巴巴多斯和牙买加这样的危机中，世界上许多国家的政府现在都面临着这样的危机，在实施时，糟糕的政策可能感觉像是好政策。

People keep their jobs and their salaries.

人们保住自己的工作和工资。

And good policy can feel bad.

好的政策可能让人感觉很糟糕。

There are protests, and marches in the street, and calls for the government to resign.

街头出现抗议和游行，并要求政府辞职。

The true consequences to Barbados and Jamaica were only revealed over time as they marched steadily down their divergent paths.

随着时间的推移，巴巴多斯和牙买加沿着各自不同的道路稳步前进，这对巴巴多斯和牙买加造成的真正后果才会显现出来。

Barbados isn't a miracle, but after decades plodding slowly along, it now looks like one.

巴巴多斯并不是一个奇迹，但经过几十年的缓慢发展，现在看起来就像一个奇迹。

Alex Blumberg is part of Planet Money that we co-produce with NPR News.

Alex Blumberg 是我们与 NPR 新闻共同制作的 Planet Money 的一部分。

Their blog and twice weekly podcasts, where they explain the world's economy entertainingly and in normal language anybody can understand, is at www.npr.org/money.

他们的博客和每周两次的播客以任何人都能理解的正常语言有趣地解释了世界经济，网址为 www.npr.org/money。

[MUSIC - "ISLAND IN THE SUN" BY THE MERRYMEN]

[音乐 - MERRYMEN 的《阳光之岛》]

Well, our program was produced today by Jane Feltes and me, with Alex Blumberg, Ben Calhoun, Sarah Koenig, Lisa Pollak, Brian Reed, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.

好吧，我们今天的节目是由 Jane Feltes 和我以及 Alex Blumberg、Ben Calhoun、Sarah Koenig、Lisa Pollak、Brian Reed、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 制作的。

Our senior producers is Julie Snyder.

我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。

Seth Lind is our production manager.

塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的生产经理。

Emily Condon is our office manager.

艾米丽·康登 (Emily Condon) 是我们的办公室经理。

[ACKNOWLDEGEMENTS] Our website, thisamericanlife.org.

[致谢] 我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。

This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.

《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。

WBEZ management oversight of our program by our boss Mister Tony Malatia who has decided to move his experimental, quantum physics research that he's so involved in from Fermi Lab in Chicago to Albany, New York, which seems like a much more interesting place for it.

我们的老板托尼·马拉蒂亚 (Tony Malatia) 先生对我们的项目进行 WBEZ 管理监督，他决定将他参与的实验量子物理研究从芝加哥的费米实验室转移到纽约州奥尔巴尼，这似乎是一个更有趣的地方。

Because on Planet Albany, there is no gravity, and light bends right around the capital.

因为在奥尔巴尼星球上，没有重力，光线在首都周围发生弯曲。

I'm Ira Glass, back next week, hopefully over this cold, with more stories of This American Life.

我是艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass），下周回来，希望能熬过这个寒冷，并带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。