401: Parent Trap - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #401 | February 18, 2011 401: Parent Trap Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 401 集 | 2011 年 2 月 18 日 401：家长陷阱 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Dave was in his late 20s, and it would not be accurate to say that he was living at home with his parents, but only because half the time he was staying at his sister's house.
序言艾拉·格拉斯·戴夫二十多岁，说他和父母住在家里并不准确，但这只是因为他有一半的时间住在他姐姐家。
He was playing in a band, doing some writing, not making much money, and his parents were worried.
他在乐队里演奏，做一些写作，赚的钱不多，他的父母很担心。
And one day he was hanging out with his mom.
有一天，他和妈妈一起出去玩。
We were coming home from going ice skating together, which right there you can see that out.
我们一起滑冰回家，你就可以看到这一点。
To be fair, I like ice skating.
公平地说，我喜欢滑冰。
I'm a quarter Canadian.
我有四分之一的加拿大血统。
Wait, wait, wait.
等等，等等，等等。
You can see what?
你能看到什么？
What does that show that you went ice skating with your mom?
这表明你和妈妈一起去滑冰了？
Well, most guys, after a certain age, wouldn't go regularly ice skating with their mom to like [?
好吧，大多数男人在一定年龄后，不会定期和他们的妈妈一起去滑冰，因为他们喜欢[？
organ ?] sessions where you're skating arm in arm around.
风琴？] 你手挽着手滑冰的课程。
I mean this is the sort of stuff I would do with my mom, like pretty regularly.
我的意思是，这是我和妈妈经常做的事情。
So they pull into the driveway.
于是他们把车开进了车道。
Dave's mom tells him there's going to be a benefit for this retirement home for nuns and priests.
戴夫的妈妈告诉他，这个养老院将为修女和牧师提供福利。
His mom's an old school Catholic who goes to mass every day.
他的妈妈是一位老派天主教徒，每天都去参加弥撒。
And she says it's going to be at a hotel in downtown Cleveland.
她说它将在克利夫兰市中心的一家酒店举行。
They live in Cleveland.
他们住在克利夫兰。
And Maureen McGovern, who sang the theme to The Poseidon Adventure back in the '70s was going to be the entertainment.
70 年代为《波塞冬历险记》演唱主题曲的莫林·麦戈文 (Maureen McGovern) 也将成为娱乐节目。
And she's like, so I'm getting tickets.
她说，所以我要买票。
So let me know if you want to go.
如果您想去的话请告诉我。
And I said, no, I don't want to go.
我说，不，我不想去。
And then, so she just said, OK, well just let me know then.
然后，她就说，好吧，那就让我知道吧。
She's like, because I have to get the tickets in the next couple of weeks.
她说，因为我必须在接下来的几周内拿到票。
And I figured, I didn't give it any thought, but then it kept coming up over and over.
我想，我没有考虑过这个问题，但后来它却一遍又一遍地出现。
Like, let me know, the benefit's coming up and I need to buy tickets.
就像，让我知道，福利即将到来，我需要买票。
So are you going to go?
那么你要去吗？
And I said, no. And she said, all right, well I need to know by next week if you're going to go.
我说，不。她说，好吧，我需要在下周之前知道你是否要去。
And this just went on and on for a couple of weeks.
这种情况持续了几周。
This was a big thing.
这是一件大事。
My mom kept saying like, and there will be nuns and priests there.
我妈妈一直这么说，那里会有修女和牧师。
Like they're going to get some of the old nuns and priests from the retirement place out.
就像他们要把一些老修女和牧师从退休场所搬出来一样。
You can walk up and touch them and stuff.
你可以走过去触摸它们之类的东西。
I don't know why she made that a selling point.
我不知道她为什么以此为卖点。
Maybe that was a selling point for her.
也许这就是她的一个卖点。
Maybe she likes nuns and priests.
也许她喜欢修女和牧师。
She does.
她做到了。
Ira Glass And she knows some of the old ones from back in the day.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 她认识一些当年的旧人。
Oh yeah, she's super into nuns and priests.
哦，是的，她非常喜欢修女和牧师。
And these weren't just the regular nuns and priests that she see's everyday on the ball field.
这些不仅仅是她每天在球场上看到的普通修女和牧师。
These are some of the older players.
这些都是一些老玩家。
You have the cards, you know, but you never see out of the stadium anymore.
你知道，你有牌，但你再也见不到球场外了。
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
It was like the fantasy league.
这就像幻想联盟。
Like Father Mackey from St. Anne's in 1952.
就像 1952 年圣安妮教堂的麦基神父一样。
So there's a lot of that going on.
所以有很多这样的事情发生。
And then, somewhere along the line, my mom brings up the fact that a priest that used to teach at my high school when I was there, Father Dennis, was recovering from two heart attacks.
然后，在这个过程中，我妈妈提起了这样一个事实：我在高中时曾任教的一位牧师丹尼斯神父正在从两次心脏病发作中恢复过来。
And so she's like, you know, I ran into Father Dennis up at church.
所以她就像，你知道，我在教堂遇到了丹尼斯神父。
And I was telling him about the benefit.
我正在告诉他这样做的好处。
And he was really into it.
他真的很喜欢它。
Yeah, I bet he would like to come to this benefit also.
是的，我打赌他也想得到这个好处。
Why don't you bring him?
你为什么不带他来？
And I was like, I'm not going.
我当时想，我不会去。
And she's like, well, I already told him you were going to call.
她说，好吧，我已经告诉他你要打电话了。
So Dave realizes he's trapped.
所以戴夫意识到他被困住了。
Checkmate.
将死。
He's going to have to at least call Father Dennis.
他至少得给丹尼斯神父打电话。
And Father Dennis, was he just like another teacher at the school or was he somebody who you especially liked?
丹尼斯神父，他和学校里的另一位老师一样还是你特别喜欢的人？
I liked him.
我喜欢他。
Yeah, I mean I knew him.
是的，我是说我认识他。
He ran the choir.
他负责唱诗班。
Yeah, I thought he was a great guy.
是的，我认为他是一个很棒的人。
He loaned me his guitar.
他把他的吉他借给了我。
He played guitar.
他弹吉他。
So it wasn't like we had kept in touch or anything.
所以我们并没有保持联系什么的。
You know, I had fond memories of him.
你知道，我对他有美好的回忆。
But I hadn't seen him in years.
但我已经很多年没见过他了。
So he gets Father Dennis on the phone and they agree that Dave is going to pick him up and they'll attend the event together.
于是他给丹尼斯神父打电话，他们同意戴夫去接他，他们将一起参加活动。
Comes the big day, it goes exactly as you might imagine a lunchtime fundraiser for retired nuns and priests in a hotel in downtown Cleveland with Maureen McGovern singing usually goes.
当这个重要的日子到来时，它会像你想象的那样，在克利夫兰市中心的一家酒店为退休修女和牧师举办午餐筹款活动，莫林·麦戈文通常会唱歌。
Now there were a couple of wild card moments to the day that I'll run through quickly for you.
现在，今天有几个不确定的时刻，我将快速为您介绍一下。
First, Dave runs into a friend at the event from grade school-- now gay-- whose Dave mom is convinced that they should set up with one of Dave's sisters, even though Dave tries to keep explaining to her that Guy is gay.
首先，戴夫在活动中遇到了一位小学朋友——现在是同性恋——他的戴夫妈妈相信他们应该和戴夫的一个姐妹在一起，尽管戴夫试图不断向她解释盖伊是同性恋。
And she thinks that I'm being mean, insulting him by calling him gay.
她认为我很刻薄，称他为同性恋是对他的侮辱。
I'm like, no, he's a gay man.
我想，不，他是个同性恋。
That's fine.
没关系。
And just explain to me why it's not going to work out?
向我解释一下为什么它不会成功？
Second, the luncheon buffet turns out to be mostly fried foods.
其次，自助午餐竟然以油炸食品为主。
None of which can be eaten by Father Dennis, who's still recovering from his two heart attacks and requested a special low fat meal.
丹尼斯神父不能吃这些东西，他仍在从两次心脏病中恢复过来，并要求吃一顿特殊的低脂餐。
Though Dave's mom has come prepared for this.
尽管戴夫的妈妈已经为此做好了准备。
She sort of like, looks around real quickly and then reaches under the table.
她有点像，快速地环顾四周，然后把手伸到桌子底下。
And she snuck in a bag of bread and like sandwich meats thinking that we could just make some sandwiches for him at the table.
她偷偷放进了一袋面包，喜欢吃三明治肉，想着我们可以在餐桌上为他做一些三明治。
And I'm just horrified.
我只是感到害怕。
Father Dennis tells her very politely, thanks, but no. He doesn't want a sandwich.
丹尼斯神父很有礼貌地告诉她，谢谢，但不行。他不想要三明治。
And eventually the waiters do arrange for him to get some sort of meal.
最终，服务员确实为他安排了一些饭菜。
At their table are some very old people, Dave's parents, Dave, and Father Dennis.
他们的餐桌上有一些非常老的人，戴夫的父母，戴夫和丹尼斯神父。
There's no drinking, which Dave says might have really helped things.
没有喝酒，戴夫说这可能确实有帮助。
And after a while, Dave and Father Dennis have run out of small talk.
过了一段时间，戴夫和丹尼斯神父不再闲聊了。
So it's getting quiet and we're sitting next to each other.
于是周围变得安静了，我们坐在一起。
At some point, Father Dennis turns to me and he's sort of like, you know, I don't know.
在某些时候，丹尼斯神父转向我，他有点像，你知道，我不知道。
Normally I understand why I'm somewhere.
通常我明白我为什么在某个地方。
If I'm invited somewhere I know why.
如果我被邀请去某个地方，我知道为什么。
But I guess I don't know.
但我想我不知道。
I don't know why I'm here.
我不知道我为什么在这里。
I'm really confused.
我真的很困惑。
I don't feel any connection to this.
我不觉得这有什么联系。
And I was just like, what?
我当时想，什么？
What do you mean?
你是什么意思？
I thought you wanted to be here.
我以为你想来这里。
I thought that was the whole thing.
我以为这就是全部事情了。
That's why I'm here.
这就是我在这里的原因。
I thought you wanted to be here.
我以为你想来这里。
And he says, no. Your mother told me that you wanted to be here and that you really wanted me to go.
他说，不。你妈妈告诉我你想来这里，而且你真的希望我去。
So I thought that I should do it for you and your mom.
所以我想我应该为你和你妈妈做这件事。
And we're just sitting there, like oh gosh.
我们只是坐在那里，天哪。
We've been just duped by what I thought was a really nice lady.
我们只是被一个我认为非常好的女士所欺骗了。
Did you ask your mom afterwards about the whole thing?
后来你有问过你妈妈这件事吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass And did she explain what she was hoping was going to happen once she got you and Father Dennis together?
艾拉·格拉斯：她有没有解释过，一旦她让你和丹尼斯神父在一起，她希望会发生什么？
No, she just kept saying like, oh, I just thought it would be a really nice time for you.
不，她只是一直说，哦，我只是觉得这对你来说真是一段美好的时光。
For both of you.
为了你们俩。
She was very invasive about it.
她对此非常具有侵略性。
And I confronted her saying, do you think like that I'm going to hang out with his priest and then I'm going to want to become a priest?
我对她说，你认为我会和他的牧师一起出去玩，然后我会想成为一名牧师吗？
And she's like, no.
她说，不。
She wouldn't admit to that, and that's maybe--
她不会承认这一点，那也许——
But you think that's what it might be?
但你认为事情可能就是这样吗？
Like in the back of her mind she's just like, maybe you're single, you're in your late 20s.
就像在她的内心深处，她就想，也许你是单身，你才 20 多岁。
Maybe you should be a priest?
也许你应该成为一名牧师？
Maybe.
或许。
Or at least have some sort of like priestly influence.
或者至少有某种类似牧师的影响力。
I think there was like a bigger thing, but she'll never tell me.
我认为有一件更大的事情，但她永远不会告诉我。
Dave says this was par for the course.
戴夫说这在课程中是正常的。
His mom often mystified him.
他的妈妈经常让他感到困惑。
And a certain amount of her parenting, of any parenting really, is putting your kids into situations you know are going to be good for them whether they like it or not.
她的养育方式，实际上是任何养育方式，都会把你的孩子置于你知道对他们有利的境地，无论他们喜欢与否。
Or even, whether they understand it.
甚至，无论他们是否理解。
There's been a number of things over the years that I just could not wrap my head around why she was making me do it.
这些年来，发生了很多事情，我就是无法理解她为什么要让我这么做。
And I really thought she was torturing me.
我真的以为她在折磨我。
Like what?
比如什么？
Dave Hill She made me take typing lessons that I could not fathom why.
戴夫·希尔（Dave Hill） 她让我参加打字课，但我不明白为什么。
I was like 13-years-old, 14-years-old.
我当时就像13岁、14岁。
It just seemed just random, like here's something that I'll hate.
这看起来只是随机的，就像这是我讨厌的东西一样。
I'll just make him do it.
我只会让他这么做。
And like, now, literally like it didn't even hit me until like the last few years when I realized that a huge part of everyday for me, I'm typing all the time.
就像现在，从字面上看，直到最近几年我才意识到，对我来说，每天的很大一部分时间都是在打字。
I remember seeing that one day and be like, oh my God.
我记得有一天看到这一幕，心想，天哪。
That's why she made me endure that horrible summer of typing lessons.
这就是为什么她让我忍受那个可怕的夏天的打字课。
Literally, 20 years later I figured it out why she did that to me.
事实上，20年后我明白了她为什么要这样对我。
From WBEZ Chicago it's This American Life distributed by Public Radio International.
芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today on our show, The Parent Trap, stories of parents doing their best to be good parents and do right by their kids by putting the kids into situation that they believe will be helpful.
今天在我们的节目《父母陷阱》中，讲述了父母尽最大努力成为好父母并通过将孩子置于他们认为有帮助的境地来善待孩子的故事。
Our show in two acts today.
我们今天的演出分两幕。
Act one, Letter Day Saint.
第一幕，信日圣人。
David Segal has the story of a mom doing something that you would expect and hope a mom would do, give her kid a little advice.
大卫·西格尔有一个故事，讲述的是一位妈妈做了一些你期望并希望妈妈会做的事情，给她的孩子一些建议。
Act two, The Opposite of Tarzan.
第二幕，《人猿泰山》的反面。
We are very, very excited to have a brand new story from the amazing team that does the show Radiolab.
我们非常非常兴奋能够从制作节目 Radiolab 的出色团队中得到一个全新的故事。
This is a story about interspecies parenting.
这是一个关于跨物种育儿的故事。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act 1, Letter Day Saint.
第一幕，信日圣人。
Sometimes a parent can do something kind of extraordinary, really above and beyond what most people do with the best of intentions, just looking out for their kid.
有时，父母可以做一些非凡的事情，真正超越大多数人怀着最好的意图所做的事情，只是为了照顾他们的孩子。
And do I even need to say that they can have all kinds of unintended consequences.
我什至需要说它们可能会产生各种意想不到的后果吗？
David Segal has this example.
大卫·西格尔有一个例子。
In 1991, Elizabeth Gee was dying of cancer.
1991年，伊丽莎白吉因癌症去世。
And as she thought about the time she had left to live, she worried about her only child, Rebecca.
当她想到自己剩下的生命时，她担心她唯一的孩子丽贝卡。
Then 16 years old.
然后16岁。
And she discussed her worries with her husband.
她与丈夫讨论了她的担忧。
She just looked at me one night.
有一天晚上她只看了我一眼。
I mean, she was hooked up with all of this stuff.
我的意思是，她对所有这些东西都着迷。
This is Gordon Gee.
这是戈登·吉。
Gordon Gee And she just looked at me.
戈登·吉 她只是看着我。
She said, you know, I really feel that I need to continue to be an influence on Rebecca's life and continue to be part of her life.
她说，你知道，我真的觉得我需要继续影响丽贝卡的生活，继续成为她生活的一部分。
She knew she was terminal.
她知道自己已经病入膏肓了。
She knew that she only had about a month to live.
她知道自己的生命只剩下一个月了。
And she made this discrimination that she was going to write letters to her daughter.
她做出了这样的歧视，她要给女儿写信。
Specifically, birthday letters.
具体来说，生日信件。
The plan she told Gordon was this.
她告诉戈登的计划是这样的。
She would write letters that he would send to Rebecca, one per year, every year, on December 4, Rebecca's birthday.
她会写信给丽贝卡，每年一封，每年12月4日，丽贝卡的生日。
The letters would be sealed and for Rebecca's eye's only.
这些信将被密封，并且仅供丽贝卡查看。
There were 13 of them.
他们一共有 13 个人。
Each tailored for a specific birthday.
每一个都是为特定的生日量身定制的。
Plus a letter for the day of Rebecca's wedding.
加上丽贝卡婚礼当天的一封信。
Rebecca didn't know any of this until the first letter, which she read the day she turned 17.
丽贝卡直到 17 岁那天读到第一封信时才知道这一切。
To a daughter reeling from the loss of her mother, it was the ultimate birthday present.
对于一个因失去母亲而痛苦的女儿来说，这是一份终极的生日礼物。
She said in one of my first letters that these were a way to connect to her.
她在我的第一封信中说，这是与她联系的一种方式。
That all I had to do to connect to her was to open a letter.
我只要打开一封信就可以联系到她。
And then she would be there.
然后她就会在那里。
One of the early letters arrived on a birthday at college, when she was feeling particularly isolated.
早期的一封信是在她大学生日那天收到的，当时她感到特别孤立。
And this letter said basically, you will never be alone.
这封信基本上说的是，你永远不会孤单。
You will never be alone.
你永远不会孤单。
You will always have me.
你永远都会有我。
And I just remember feeling this incredible feeling of peace.
我只记得感受到这种令人难以置信的平静感。
It almost felt like getting a letter from someone who was alive.
感觉就像收到一封来自还活着的人的信。
It happened the same way every year.
每年都以同样的方式发生。
Gordon, a college president for most of his professional life, now at Ohio State University, would overnight a sealed envelope, adding a brief card of his own.
戈登在其职业生涯的大部分时间里担任大学校长，现在在俄亥俄州立大学，他会在一夜之间将一个密封的信封加上一张他自己的简短卡片。
And every year, Rebecca went through a birthday letter ritual.
每年，丽贝卡都会经历一封生日信仪式。
Usually sometime in the afternoon before dinner I'd sit down and open it and read Dad's note.
通常在下午晚餐前的某个时候，我会坐下来打开它，阅读爸爸的便条。
Feel the page, look at her signature.
摸摸页面，看看她的签名。
Usually it'd be the first thing.
通常这会是第一件事。
And think, gosh, that's just so amazing that she's gone and I'm looking at her signature and it's saying I love you.
想一想，天哪，她走了真是太神奇了，我看着她的签名，上面写着我爱你。
And then I'd read through it.
然后我就读完了它。
Each letter was about 2,000 typed words on thick white paper signed by hand, "You're the sweetest girl in the world.
每封信都有大约 2000 个字，打印在厚厚的白纸上，并有手写签名：“你是世界上最可爱的女孩。
Or just, "Love forever, Mommy."
或者只是“永远爱你，妈妈。”
Elizabeth told Gordon that she wanted to describe the world as she saw it, and as Rebecca would see it as a young woman.
伊丽莎白告诉戈登，她想描述她所看到的世界，以及丽贝卡年轻时所看到的世界。
And she does so in the letters with a mix of pep talks, moral instruction, autobiography, and parental affection.
她在信中混合了鼓舞士气的演讲、道德指导、自传和父母的感情来做到这一点。
Often she focuses on what was happening to her on the age Rebecca would be when she opened each letter.
她常常关注丽贝卡打开每封信时的年龄所发生的事情。
So when Rebecca turned 21, Elizabeth described a dress she owned when she was 21.
因此，当丽贝卡 21 岁时，伊丽莎白描述了她 21 岁时拥有的一件衣服。
Quote, "You would not believe what I wore.
引用：“你不会相信我穿的衣服。
A black fake fur suit with a pink top and the plastic ping pong earrings.
黑色人造毛皮套装，搭配粉色上衣和塑料乒乓耳环。
Everyone thought it was fashionable, but I laugh when I think of it."
每个人都认为这很时尚，但我一想到它就笑了。”
A lot of the letters are advice on how to live.
很多信件都是关于如何生活的建议。
Quote, "Most children benefit from the simulation of daycare," she writes.
引用：“大多数孩子都从模拟日托中受益，”她写道。
Urging Rebecca not to give up her career when she has children.
敦促丽贝卡在有了孩子后不要放弃事业。
Quote, "You are not a uni-dimensional person.
引用：“你不是一个单一维度的人。
Under that balance, you will be frustrated."
在这种平衡下，你会感到沮丧。”
And her mother had high expectations.
她的母亲也抱有很高的期望。
In one letter she asks her daughter, "Are you contemplating a dissertation?
在一封信中，她问女儿：“你正在考虑写论文吗？
Interviewing with scientific laboratories or NASA?
采访科学实验室或 NASA？
Traveling to excited places?" Rebecca pushed herself to meet those expectations.
去令人兴奋的地方旅行？”丽贝卡强迫自己满足这些期望。
In college when her friends were out drinking, she stayed in and studied.
大学时，当她的朋友出去喝酒时，她就留在家里学习。
Other kids might have found this all a little too heavy, Rebecca found it inspiring.
其他孩子可能会觉得这一切有点太沉重了，丽贝卡却觉得这很鼓舞人心。
For example, when I decided I didn't have the confidence to go to medical school and I wasn't going to do it, the letter that year basically said, you need to find ethical expression in your work.
例如，当我决定没有信心去医学院并且我不打算这样做时，那年的信基本上说，你需要在你的工作中找到道德表达。
There was just no way I could have become a banker in the setting of these letters.
在这些信件的背景下，我根本不可能成为一名银行家。
I mean not that bankers don't have ethical expression, but for most of college, I think I had this enormous sense of purpose that I had a responsibility to do something meaningful.
我的意思并不是说银行家没有道德表达，而是对于大学里的大多数人来说，我认为我有一种巨大的使命感，我有责任做一些有意义的事情。
Both to me and to other people.
对我和其他人都是如此。
As galvanizing as these letters could be, they could also be upsetting.
尽管这些信件可能令人振奋，但也可能令人心烦意乱。
The first person to fully appreciate how upsetting they were was her father.
第一个充分意识到他们有多么沮丧的人是她的父亲。
He was the one who dealt with the fall out.
他是处理这场争吵的人。
He saw that keeping his promise to his wife meant causing his daughter emotional distress.
他看到遵守对妻子的承诺意味着给女儿带来精神上的困扰。
And on her birthday.
在她生日那天。
It was as if I could predict the sunrising.
就好像我可以预测日出一样。
Rebecca would get the letters and then, I'd receive either that night or the next morning, a very tearful telephone call about how much she missed her mom.
丽贝卡会收到这些信，然后，那天晚上或第二天早上，我会收到一通含泪的电话，告诉我她有多么想念她的妈妈。
And I'd have these prolonged telephone calls.
我会打很长时间的电话。
What sort of things would you talk about?
你会谈论什么样的事情？
Well, I mean, she'd just say she's sad.
嗯，我的意思是，她只是说她很难过。
You know, very sad.
你知道，非常难过。
I wish my mother had been able to live.
我希望我的母亲能够活下去。
And been able to be here for me when I needed her.
当我需要她时，她能够在我身边。
And been able to go shopping with me and all the kinds of things that I think any young woman would love to have her mother do.
能够和我一起去购物以及我认为任何年轻女性都会喜欢让她妈妈做的各种事情。
And you can imagine, that was very difficult for me.
你可以想象，这对我来说非常困难。
Toward the end of her college years, the letters were difficult for Rebecca for another reason.
大学快结束时，这些信对丽贝卡来说很困难，还有另一个原因。
One of her mother's regular theme, actually you could say it was the dominant theme, was religious faith.
她母亲的常规主题之一，实际上你可以说这是主导主题，就是宗教信仰。
The Gee's are Mormons and to her mother, staying close to the church was essential.
吉家是摩门教徒，对她的母亲来说，靠近教堂是至关重要的。
The most important thing for her was that I be a Mormon woman in the way that she wanted me to be.
对她来说最重要的是我按照她希望的方式成为一名摩门教徒。
Which was a woman that went to the temple.
这是一个去寺庙的女人。
A woman who married a Mormon man.
嫁给摩门教徒的女人。
A woman who believed all of the Mormon theology.
一位相信所有摩门教神学的女人。
By the time Rebecca was a senior in college, she was moving away from the church.
当丽贝卡读大学四年级时，她离开了教堂。
So she worried a lot about disappointing her mother, who in the letters was constantly imploring her to stay.
因此，她非常担心让母亲失望，因为母亲在信中不断恳求她留下来。
Quote, "You must always have the goal of going to the temple.
引用：“你必须始终有去寺庙的目标。
For there you receive great gifts.
因为在那里你会收到很棒的礼物。
It is in the temple that we are joined in eternal bonds and powers that will unite us in the world's beyond."
正是在圣殿里，我们以永恒的纽带和力量结合在一起，将我们在世界的彼岸团结起来。”
In another letter she wrote, "You will make good life choices.
她在另一封信中写道：“你将会做出正确的人生选择。
I know you will.
我知道你会的。
But no matter your choice, never lose sight of the temple for me, please."
但无论你如何选择，请永远不要忘记我的圣殿。”
By age 21, after a few years of getting these letters and going through a process where I realized this right not going to be in my life, sometimes I would feel angry.
到了 21 岁时，几年后我收到了这些信，并经历了一个过程，我意识到这种权利不会出现在我的生活中，有时我会感到愤怒。
And I remember at age 21 thinking, man, do I have to open up this one this year?
我记得我 21 岁时就想，伙计，我今年必须打开这个吗？
This is tough.
这很难。
I don't want to do it.
我不想这样做。
And my friend saying, well, why don't you wait?
我的朋友说，那你为什么不等一下呢？
We'll go out to dinner.
我们会出去吃晚饭。
Maybe open it up tomorrow.
也许明天就可以打开了。
And I felt guilty.
我感到内疚。
And I remember feeling like if I didn't open it up I would really disappoint her.
我记得我感觉如果我不打开它我真的会让她失望。
And yet, then I open it up and it's all about, I hope you marry a Mormon man and I hope you go to the temple.
然而，当我打开它时，内容都是这样的，我希望你嫁给一个摩门教徒，我希望你去寺庙。
And if you don't go to the temple, you won't go to heaven.
如果你不去寺庙，你就不会去天堂。
You're not going to see me.
你不会见我的。
And I'm not doing it.
而我不这样做。
And that's a pretty hard thing to hear on your birthday.
在你生日那天听到这样的事情是一件很难的事。
Gordon was devout, but he could listen to Rebecca's reasons for leaving the church and came to accept them.
戈登很虔诚，但他能听懂丽贝卡离开教堂的理由并接受它们。
Her mother couldn't do that.
她的母亲做不到这一点。
And in the three-way conversation that is part of any relationship of child, mother, and father, the voice of Rebecca's mother always spoke the loudest.
在孩子、母亲和父亲关系中的三方对话中，丽贝卡母亲的声音总是最大的。
It might seem strange that the deceased parent had the most sway, but her mother's opinion was fixed.
已故父母的影响力最大，这似乎很奇怪，但她母亲的意见是固定的。
There's no arguing with her.
和她没有什么可争论的。
That haunted Rebecca.
这困扰着丽贝卡。
And while Gordon found himself reassuring his daughter, the comforts he offered were always trumped by Rebecca's memory of her mother.
虽然戈登发现自己在安慰女儿，但他提供的安慰总是被丽贝卡对母亲的记忆所压倒。
It's difficult to compete with a dead spouse or in this sense, a dead mother.
与死去的配偶或从这个意义上来说，与死去的母亲竞争是很困难的。
Because I'm here and I have all of the frailties of who I am.
因为我在这里，我有我自己的所有弱点。
And over time, obviously her mother became very iconic.
随着时间的推移，显然她的母亲变得非常具有标志性。
In many ways, very perfect.
从很多方面来说，都非常完美。
And clearly, could do no wrong.
显然，他不会做错任何事。
And I mean I never did say this to her, although I've joked with her a couple times.
我的意思是，尽管我跟她开玩笑过几次，但我从来没有对她说过这样的话。
You know, who am I, chopped liver?
你知道我是谁，碎肝吗？
Because the letters were written exclusively for Rebecca, Gordon thought it was inappropriate to ask too many questions about them.
由于这些信是专门为丽贝卡写的，戈登认为对它们提出太多问题是不合适的。
For the same reason, Rebecca never volunteered to share them.
出于同样的原因，丽贝卡也从不主动分享它们。
Father and daughter were just following a set of instructions.
父亲和女儿只是遵循一系列指示。
As outdated and as trying as those instructions were.
尽管这些说明已经过时且令人费解。
Over the years, as he dealt with his daughter's anguish, Gordon tossed out some hints the perhaps it was a bad idea for him to lob these annual grief bombs into her life.
多年来，当戈登处理女儿的痛苦时，他提出了一些暗示，也许他每年向她的生活投掷这些悲伤炸弹是一个坏主意。
I did on several occasions, I just said, you know, you have to remember that your mother was very ill.
我说过好几次了，我只是说，你知道，你必须记住，你母亲病得很重。
And that she loved you very much.
并且她非常爱你。
But I'm not quite certain how healthy this is to have these letters and I said that to her directly.
但我不太确定收到这些信有多健康，所以我直接对她说了这句话。
And I've said that to her on several occasions.
我已经多次对她说过这样的话。
And because it was very hard on me.
因为这对我来说非常困难。
It would really break my heart when I would hear her be so sad.
当我听到她如此悲伤时，我真的很伤心。
But Rebecca never seemed to pick up on her father's hints, or his misgivings.
但丽贝卡似乎从未意识到父亲的暗示或疑虑。
As painful as the letters were, she felt as though she had no choice but to read them carefully.
尽管这些信让她很痛苦，但她却觉得自己别无选择，只能仔细阅读它们。
So Gordon sent them all, though he was conflicted about it enough that he actually delegated the FedExing part to his secretary.
所以戈登把它们都寄了，尽管他对此很矛盾，以至于他实际上将联邦快递的部分委托给了他的秘书。
All of this letter related dread culminated with Rebecca's wedding, which happened in 2006 in an Episcopal church.
所有与这封信相关的恐惧随着丽贝卡 2006 年在圣公会教堂举行的婚礼而达到了顶峰。
But Rebecca and Gordon suspected the letter Elizabeth wrote for Rebecca's wedding would contain her longest course yet on the importance of marrying in a Mormon temple.
但丽贝卡和戈登怀疑伊丽莎白为丽贝卡的婚礼写的信中将包含她迄今为止最长的课程，讲述在摩门教寺庙结婚的重要性。
Which is why both father and daughter told me they were secretly relieved when the letter, which Gordon's secretary says she sent, vanished in the FedEx system.
这就是为什么父亲和女儿告诉我，当戈登的秘书说她寄出的这封信在联邦快递系统中消失时，他们暗自松了口气。
I remember thinking, if there is one for my wedding, I definitely don't want to open it on my wedding day.
我记得我当时想，如果我的婚礼上有一个，我绝对不想在婚礼当天打开它。
Because I really want my wedding day to be happy.
因为我真的希望我的婚礼是快乐的。
And I don't want to sit, I don't want to cry.
我不想坐着，我不想哭。
That day in particular, didn't want the letter to be a part of it.
尤其是那天，我不想让这封信成为其中的一部分。
Because all the birthday letters had been sent, the wedding letter would have been the final letter in the series.
因为所有生日信都已发送，所以结婚信将是该系列中的最后一封信。
Was there part of you when the letters ran out that felt relief?
当信件写完时，你是否感到如释重负？
Yeah, I think so.
是的，我想是的。
I think that without a doubt, it was an opportunity to move on.
我认为毫无疑问，这是一个继续前进的机会。
On the other level, this was the last kind of visible written, tangible connection that she had with her mother.
另一方面，这是她与母亲之间最后一种可见的、有形的、书面的联系。
Right.
对。
And I think it was to her in many ways.
我认为这对她来说在很多方面都是如此。
But it was also a new beginning.
但这也是一个新的开始。
For the first time, Rebecca began living a life that wasn't shadowed by a looming reminder of her mother's unmet hopes.
丽贝卡第一次开始过上一种不再被母亲未实现的希望所笼罩的生活。
Rebecca had become a physician.
丽贝卡成为了一名医生。
And she married a doctor named Allan Moore, whom she had met in residency.
她嫁给了一位名叫艾伦·摩尔的医生，她是在住院医师实习时认识的。
It was a very happy marriage and it ended tragically, a mere 18 months after it started when the couple was hit by an SUV while riding a Vespa.
这是一段非常幸福的婚姻，但在开始仅仅 18 个月后，这对夫妇在骑 Vespa 时被一辆 SUV 撞倒，就以悲剧结束了。
Rebecca was severely injured and Allan was killed.
丽贝卡受重伤，艾伦身亡。
For the second time in her life, Rebecca was forced to cope with a devastating loss.
丽贝卡一生中第二次被迫面对毁灭性的损失。
But this time was different.
但这一次不同。
She spent her months of physical rehab contemplating and writing about her memories of Allan.
她花了几个月的身体康复时间思考并写下她对艾伦的记忆。
And I remember thinking to myself, this is how it should be when you grieve for someone.
我记得我心里想，当你为某人悲伤时就应该这样。
You should remember the beautiful times, the things you shared.
你应该记住那些美好的时光，那些你们分享的事情。
You should celebrate that person, but you shouldn't be dragged back into the grave with them every year.
你应该庆祝那个人，但你不应该每年都和他们一起被拖回坟墓。
Why did she do this to me?
她为什么要这样对我？
Rebecca says a year and a half after her husband's death, she feels like she's farther along in her grieving for him than she was 10 years after her mother died.
丽贝卡说，在她丈夫去世一年半后，她觉得自己对他的悲伤比她母亲去世十年后更加深了。
I mourned my husband's loss, Allan's loss.
我为失去丈夫、失去艾伦而哀悼。
I love him, but I'm moving on with my life as he would want me to.
我爱他，但我会按照他希望的那样继续我的生活。
I think to have letters from him for my birthdays or a yearly, would make it harder for me to move on.
我认为在我的生日或每年收到他的来信，会让我更难继续前进。
At the same time, the letters her mother sent were so essential in forming the person that Rebecca became, it's hard for her to imagine growing up without them.
与此同时，她母亲寄来的信件对于丽贝卡的成长至关重要，她很难想象没有这些信件的成长。
In the end, would I have wanted a life without these?
最后，我会想要没有这些的生活吗？
I can't say that because they made me feel incredibly loved.
我不能这么说，因为他们让我感到难以置信的爱。
They made me know how much she valued her time on this earth with me.
他们让我知道她多么珍惜和我一起在这个地球上度过的时光。
I got to hear that.
我必须听到这个。
I got to hear that after she died.
她死后我才听到这件事。
Recently, Rebecca has started to grasp the hardships the letters imposed on her dad.
最近，丽贝卡开始意识到这封信给她父亲带来的困难。
And she thinks it would've been better if she had shared the letters with her father in real time, even if that went against her mother's wishes.
她认为如果她能实时与父亲分享这些信件会更好，即使这违背了她母亲的意愿。
This surely wasn't Elizabeth's intention, but when she wrote those letter, she left behind the bricks for a wall that kept her husband and her daughter apart, at least when the subject came to Elizabeth.
这当然不是伊丽莎白的本意，但当她写那封信时，她留下了砖块，以将她的丈夫和女儿分开，至少当主题涉及到伊丽莎白时。
Along with instructions that made discussing that wall very difficult.
以及使讨论那堵墙变得非常困难的说明。
It was a plan that neither Rebecca nor Gordon ever consented to.
丽贝卡和戈登都没有同意这个计划。
And now, very gingerly, the wall is being dismantled.
现在，隔离墙正在小心翼翼地拆除。
A months ago Rebecca sent her Dad a copy of one of the letters from her 24th birthday.
一个月前，丽贝卡给她爸爸寄了一封她 24 岁生日时写的信的副本。
Much of which is about Gordon's strengths as a dad.
其中很大一部分是关于戈登作为父亲的优势。
She has yet to share any of the others.
她尚未分享任何其他内容。
And during our interview, Gordon joked that he was a little jealous that I got to read the letters before he did.
在我们的采访中，戈登开玩笑说，他有点嫉妒我在他之前读到了这些信。
But a dying wish has a momentum all its own.
但垂死的愿望有其自身的动力。
And though the letters are now locked in a safe in Gordon's home, he still hasn't looked at them.
尽管这些信件现在被锁在戈登家中的保险箱里，但他仍然没有看过它们。
And Rebecca still hasn't asked him to.
丽贝卡还没有要求他这样做。
David Segal is a reporter for the New York Times .
大卫·西格尔是《纽约时报》的记者。
[MUSIC- "PAGES OF MY LETTERS" BY KERI NOBLE]
[音乐 - KERI NOBLE 的“PAGES OF MY LETTERS”]
Coming up, a set of parents like any others trying to impress their values on their child.
接下来，一群父母像其他人一样试图向孩子灌输他们的价值观。
Though in this case it's tricky because the child is not in their same species.
尽管在这种情况下这很棘手，因为孩子不是同一物种。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.
一分钟后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life , I'm Ira Glass.
这就是美国生活，我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program of course, we choose a theme, bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一个主题，为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's show, Parent Trap, we have stories of parents doing their best to be conscientious loving parents, accidentally setting traps for their kids or themselves along the way.
今天的节目《家长陷阱》讲述了父母尽最大努力成为尽职尽责的爱心父母，却无意中为孩子或自己设置陷阱的故事。
We've arrived at act 2 of our show.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act 2, The Opposite of Tarzan.
第二幕，《人猿泰山》的反面。
The parents in this next story do a lot of things that are really just amazing.
下一个故事中的父母做了很多令人惊奇的事情。
They actually reach outside their own species into a different species, adopt a baby, raise it, love it, without really thinking through the consequences.
他们实际上从自己的物种之外进入了另一个物种，收养一个婴儿，抚养它，爱它，而没有真正考虑后果。
Which turn out to be big.
事实证明这很大。
Here are the hosts of Radiolab, Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, and the story this baby, Lucy.
以下是 Radiolab 的主持人 Jad Abumrad 和 Robert Krulwich，以及这个婴儿 Lucy 的故事。
So let's just start at the beginning.
那么让我们从头开始吧。
Who is Lucy?
露西是谁？
Lucy is a chimpanzee that actually, this was found out later, born to a circus entertainer.
露西是一只黑猩猩，后来才知道，它是马戏团艺人所生的。
Born in their camp.
出生在他们的营地。
What country are we in?
我们在哪个国家？
Robert Krulwich In the US.
罗伯特·克鲁维奇在美国。
They traveled up and down the East Coast, the [UNINTELLIGIBLE] Chimp Arc Show, something like that.
他们在东海岸来回旅行，参加[无法理解的]黑猩猩弧形表演，类似的事情。
They were very popular.
他们很受欢迎。
We heard about Lucy from Charles Siebert, he's a reporter.
我们从查尔斯·西伯特那里听说了露西，他是一名记者。
And he tells the tale of a chimpanzee.
他还讲述了黑猩猩的故事。
She was a chimpanzee born-- do you know Jad?
她是一只黑猩猩出生的——你认识贾德吗？
1964.
1964年。
Robert Krulwich This is an early version of a chimp raised entirely in a human environment.
罗伯特·克鲁维奇 这是完全在人类环境中饲养的黑猩猩的早期版本。
One of the earliest.
最早的之一。
But it's not the kind of story that you may have heard before, where the chimp grows up with humans and then actually ends up mauling the humans.
但这不是你以前听过的那种故事，即黑猩猩与人类一起长大，然后实际上最终伤害了人类。
And Charles, himself, first bumped into the tale in this really old, obscure memoir.
查尔斯本人首先在这本古老而晦涩的回忆录中偶然发现了这个故事。
Long out of print.
早已绝版。
Jad Abumrad Yeah, what's the name of the book?
Jad Abumrad 是的，这本书叫什么名字？
Hold on.
坚持，稍等。
It's called Lucy- Growing Up Human : A Chimpanzee Daughter in a Psychotherapist's Family by Maurice K.
这本书的名字叫《露西——人类的成长：心理治疗师家庭中的黑猩猩女儿》，莫里斯·K·
Temerlin.
特梅林。
Maurice K.
莫里斯·K.
Temerlin, he is the psychotherapist.
特默林，他是心理治疗师。
He's a psychotherapist.
他是一名心理治疗师。
Jad Abumrad And he's also the dad in this story.
Jad Abumrad 他也是这个故事中的父亲。
And his wife, Jane, who's a social worker, she's the mom.
他的妻子简是一名社会工作者，也是他的母亲。
Now the thing to know was that, especially for Maurice Temerlin, this was more than just adopting a baby champ.
现在要知道的是，尤其是对于莫里斯·特默林来说，这不仅仅是收养一个冠军宝宝那么简单。
This was an experiment.
这是一个实验。
He wanted to know, given the right upbringing, how human could Lucy he become?
他想知道，如果受到正确的教育，露西能成为一个怎样的人？
What he says early on in this book, "Would she learn to love us and perhaps--
他在本书开头所说的，“她会学会爱我们吗？也许——
--have other human emotions as well?
——人类还有其他情感吗？
Would she be well-behaved, rebellious.
她会不会乖巧，叛逆。
Intelligent or stupid?
聪明还是愚蠢？
David Garland What about sex?
大卫·加兰 性呢？
Maurice Temerlin actually died in 1989, but these are his words read by radio host, David Garland.
莫里斯·特默林 (Maurice Temerlin) 实际上已于 1989 年去世，但电台主持人大卫·加兰 (David Garland) 宣读了他的话。
Would she mother her offspring?
她会养育她的后代吗？
Could she learn to talk?
她能学会说话吗？
How intelligent might she be?
她可能有多聪明？
And so how did they her?
那么他们是怎么对待她的呢？
Robert Krulwich He says that he and his wife, Jane, made all the arrangements.
罗伯特·克鲁维奇（Robert Krulwich）说，他和他的妻子简（Jane）做了所有的安排。
Went and got the chimp--
去抓黑猩猩——
The mother was anesthetized.
母亲被麻醉了。
David Garland In the early morning of her second day, Jane fed the mother a Coca-Cola, which had been spiked with phencyclidine, a drug which puts chimpanzees into a deep, pleasant sleep.
大卫·加兰 第二天一早，简给母亲喂了一杯可口可乐，里面掺了苯环己哌啶，这种药物可以让黑猩猩进入深度、愉快的睡眠。
And the baby was taken away.
然后孩子就被抱走了。
David Garland Jane named her Lucy and brought her home on a commercial airline, carried in a bassinet, her face covered with a lacy blanket.
大卫·加兰·简给她取名露西，并用摇篮载着她乘坐商业航班回家，她的脸上盖着花边毯子。
We were blissfully unaware of the complexities we were creating on the day Lucy came home.
露西回家的那天，我们幸福地没有意识到我们所造成的复杂性。
Just two days old.
刚出生两天。
Robert Krulwich So it wasn't weened?
罗伯特·克鲁维奇 那么它还没有被淘汰吗？
No, and that was part of the experiment.
不，那是实验的一部分。
They bottle feed her.
他们用奶瓶喂她。
Charles Siebert Yeah.
查尔斯·西伯特 是的。
She quickly learned to hold her own bottle.
她很快就学会了自己拿瓶子。
At two months, her eyes would focus.
两个月后，她的眼睛就会聚焦。
At three months, she was trying to climb out of her crib to go to people.
三个月大时，她正试图爬出婴儿床去找人。
And at six months, she was pretty mobile on all four limbs.
六个月时，她的四肢都可以活动了。
The memoir goes on.
回忆录还在继续。
By the time she was about a year old--
到她一岁左右的时候——
Forks, spoons, knives.
叉子、勺子、刀子。
David Garland She would see us using silverware and immediately dos o herself.
大卫·加兰（David Garland） 她会看到我们使用银器，然后立即自杀。
Shw would often grab my hand, pull me to my feet and beg me to chase her.
Shw经常抓住我的手，把我拉起来，求我追她。
Always looking back to see that Daddy was not too far behind.
总是回头看看爸爸并不落后太远。
You know, he really went at this with this sort of full bore earnestness.
你知道，他确实是带着这种十足的认真态度去做这件事的。
You know, when he calls her his darling daughter--
你知道，当他称她为他的宝贝女儿时——
I took great pride in my daughter's achievements.
我对女儿的成就感到非常自豪。
He does feel like a real parent to Lucy.
他确实感觉自己像露西真正的父母。
She was so responsive to being looked at, held, and stroked.
她对别人的注视、拥抱和抚摸非常敏感。
But he's also, make no mistake, treating this as a very intense cutting edge experiment.
但毫无疑问，他也将此视为一项非常激烈的前沿实验。
The next phase of the experiment, which occupies a good deal of the book, involve one of those talents that we thought used to only be limited to us: language.
实验的下一阶段占据了本书的大部分内容，它涉及到我们过去认为只限于我们的才能：语言。
OK.
好的。
Jad Abumrad Can you introduce yourself, please?
Jad Abumrad 你能自我介绍一下吗？
OK, my name is Roger Fouts.
好的，我的名字是罗杰·福茨。
I'm a professor of psychology and I've worked with chimpanzees since 1967.
我是一名心理学教授，自 1967 年以来一直从事黑猩猩研究。
Roger Fouts was called in by Maurice Temerlin to address one of the crucial questions of the experiment.
莫里斯·特默林请罗杰·福茨来解决实验的关键问题之一。
Could she learn to talk?
她能学会说话吗？
Roger Fouts Right.
罗杰·福茨说得对。
And at the time, he was the guy.
当时，他就是那个人。
He had just been part of a team that had proven for the first time the chimps could use sign language to communicate.
他刚刚加入的团队首次证明黑猩猩可以使用手语进行交流。
So his job with Lucy was to teach her how to sign.
所以他和露西的工作就是教她如何签名。
And I think I came into her life when she was-- as I remember, it was 1970.
我想我进入她的生活时——我记得那是 1970 年。
I think it was four or five.
我认为有四五个。
She was four or five years old.
她当时四五岁。
Roger taught her signs for airplane, baby doll, ball, banana, barrette, berry, bird.
罗杰教她表示飞机、娃娃、球、香蕉、发夹、浆果、鸟的手势。
Yeah, so I was sort of like-- David Garland Blanket.
是的，所以我有点像——大卫·加兰毛毯。
--the tutor friend, babysitter that would come over for a few hours each day and spend some time just playing with Lucy.
——家教朋友、保姆，每天都会过来几个小时，花一些时间和露西一起玩。
I would work on signs.
我会研究标志。
Cat.
猫。
Roger Fouts We'd read books together, or we'd go for walks.
Roger Fouts：我们会一起读书，或者去散步。
I would chat with her basically.
我基本上都会和她聊天。
Cry.
哭吧。
Dirty.
肮脏。
Jad Abumrad And he says that Lucy--
贾德·阿布姆拉德 他说露西——
Picked it up.
捡起来了。
Jad Abumrad Picked it all up.
贾德·阿布姆拉德（Jad Abumrad）把这一切都捡了起来。
It was like a game.
这就像一场游戏。
Charles Siebert She learned some 250 signs.
Charles Siebert 她学会了大约 250 个手语。
And the big question is, OK, so is it me or mimicry, or are they able to spontaneously create words and put some together in a new original way?
最大的问题是，好吧，那么这是我还是模仿，或者他们是否能够自发地创造单词并以一种新的原创方式将一些单词组合在一起？
And there's been a lot of anecdotal evidence that in fact, Lucy did spontaneously create words.
事实上，有很多轶事证据表明，露西确实自发地创造了单词。
In a later session, when shown a piece of watermelon, Lucy tasted it and she called it candy drink.
在后来的会议中，当露西看到一块西瓜时，她尝了尝，她称之为糖果饮料。
When shown an onion before Roger good teach her the ASL sign for onion, Lucy volunteered--
当罗杰在教她洋葱的 ASL 手势之前，露西主动提出要教她洋葱——
She would also lie to me.
她也会对我撒谎。
Jad Abumrad Really?
贾德·阿布拉德 真的吗？
Yes.
是的。
Jad Abumrad And lying we should also say is another one of those things that people used to think only we do.
贾德·阿布姆拉德（Jad Abumrad） 我们还应该说，撒谎是人们过去认为只有我们才会做的事情之一。
During one of my sessions I came in and she had a potty accident.
在我的一次治疗期间，我进来时她发生了如厕事故。
She had been potty trained, but sometimes she didn't always make it.
她接受过如厕训练，但有时她并不总是能如厕。
And I was upset because I was now faced with having to clean it up.
我很沮丧，因为我现在必须清理它。
And so I said, who's is that?
所以我说，那是谁？
And she said, Sue.
她说，苏。
Who's Sue?
苏是谁？
Roger Fouts Sue was one of my students that would come in and spend time with Lucy too.
罗杰·福特·苏（Roger Fouts Sue）是我的学生之一，他也会来和露西一起度过时光。
I said, no, Sue's not here.
我说，不，苏不在这儿。
She blamed it on Sue.
她把这一切都归咎于苏。
Roger Fouts Finally she fessed up and yeah, said Lucy.
罗杰·福茨：“她终于坦白了，是的，”露西说。
And sorry.
抱歉。
This is Sue.
这是苏。
Sue Sue Savage [UNINTELLIGIBLE].
苏·苏·萨维奇[难以辨认]。
The grad student of yours who says she didn't actually see that like take place.
你的研究生说她实际上并没有看到这样的事情发生。
Yes, well I wasn't there.
是的，我当时不在场。
Jad Abumrad But she told us that when she met Lucy, she was blown away by the incongruity of it all.
贾德·阿布姆拉德 但她告诉我们，当她遇到露西时，她被这一切的不协调所震惊。
Like for instance, every time she would walk in the house, Lucy would just--
比如说，每次她走进房子时，露西都会——
Walk casually into the kitchen and search through the cupboard for the kind a tea she wanted that day, and put some water in a kettle and put it on the stove and make us tea.
随意地走进厨房，在柜子里翻找她当天想要的那种茶，然后在水壶里装了一些水，放在炉子上给我们泡茶。
But it was the casualness with which she did it, the kind of air about it that yes, I'm making tea, and I would like you to have some too.
但这是她做事时的漫不经心，那种气氛，是的，我正在泡茶，我想让你也喝点。
Because tea is what we do.
因为茶就是我们所做的。
When we meet new people, we have tea.
当我们认识新朋友时，我们会喝茶。
Wow.
哇。
David Garland Lucy her developed an awareness of our emotions.
大卫·加兰·露西培养了对我们情绪的认识。
If Jane is distressed--
如果简感到苦恼——
Temerlin's wife.
特梅林的妻子。
David Garland --Lucy notices it immediately and attempts to comfort her by putting her arm about her, grooming her or kissing her.
大卫·加兰——露西立即注意到了这一点，并试图用手臂搂住她、给她梳理毛发或亲吻她来安慰她。
If Jane is sick, Lucy would exhibit tender protectiveness toward her.
如果简生病了，露西会对她表现出温柔的保护。
Bringing her food, sharing her own food.
给她带来食物，分享她自己的食物。
As we get to this next part, this is sort of the midpoint of the memoir.
当我们进入下一部分时，这是回忆录的中点。
It's useful to sort of remember a basic fact of biology.
记住生物学的基本事实是很有用的。
Speciation happens when you've got one group of creatures that gets divided into two, and then these two groups evolve away from one another.
当一组生物分成两组，然后这两组生物逐渐远离彼此时，就会发生物种形成。
And eventually they get so far away from each other that they can't have babies.
最终他们彼此之间的距离越来越远，以至于无法生孩子。
And nature makes sure that they can't have babies by making one species basically undesirable to the other.
大自然使一种物种基本上不受另一种物种的欢迎，从而确保它们无法生育。
You look across, you're a baboon.
你一看，你是狒狒。
You look across at a chimp and you go, eh.
你看着对面的一只黑猩猩，然后你就走了，呃。
Yeah, you're only sexually attracted to your own kind.
是的，你只对自己的同类有性吸引力。
That is essentially what a species is.
这本质上就是一个物种。
This isn't something you're supposed to be able to learn or unlearn.
这不是你应该能够学习或忘记的东西。
This is just the way it is.
事情就是这样。
Jad Abumrad Yeah, which brings us to some troubling passages in the book.
Jad Abumrad 是的，这给我们带来了书中一些令人不安的段落。
Beginning really on page 105.
真正从第 105 页开始。
And we should warn that this next minute and a half contains s sexual reference.
我们应该警告，接下来的一分半钟包含性暗示。
One afternoon around 5 o'clock, Jane and I were sitting in the living room when we observed this sequence of behavior.
一天下午五点左右，我和简坐在客厅里，观察到了这一连串的行为。
Lucy left the living room and went to the kitchen, opened a cabinet, and took from it a glass.
露西离开客厅，来到厨房，打开柜子，从里面取出一只玻璃杯。
Opened a different cabinet and brought out a--
打开另一个柜子，拿出一个——
That's actually not the important part.
这实际上不是重要的部分。
It's what happens next.
这就是接下来发生的事情。
She takes her gin and goes back to the living room, sits on the couch, and there's really no other way to say this.
她拿起杜松子酒，回到客厅，坐在沙发上，真的没有其他方式可以表达这一点。
She starts to masturbate.
她开始手淫。
But even that's not the important part.
但这还不是重要的部分。
It's actually the very next moment.
实际上就是下一刻。
That a boundary that took proximity six million years to establish dissolves.
花了近六百万年才建立的边界消失了。
Mr. Temerlin sees Lucy doing this and he thinks, hmm, this?
特默林先生看到露西这样做，他想，嗯，这个？
This is a perfect experimental moment.
这是一个完美的实验时刻。
So he runs off to the mall.
于是他跑到了商场。
Buys a copy of Plagirl magazine and brings it back to her.
购买一本 Plagirl 杂志并将其带回给她。
Yep.
是的。
And Lucy would masturbate to these centerfolds.
露西会对着这些插页自慰。
I was not a part of that.
我没有参与其中。
I was never there when Lucy looked at the porno.
露西看色情片的时候我不在场。
But Sue says that she was there for what happened next.
但苏说她当时就在场，目睹了接下来发生的事情。
Yes.
是的。
I was there when she was introduced to her first adult male chimpanzee.
当她被介绍给她的第一只成年雄性黑猩猩时，我也在场。
Had Lucy ever seen another chimpanzee before?
露西以前见过另一只黑猩猩吗？
Never seen another chimpanzee from the moment of birth.
从出生那一刻起，我就再也没有见过另一只黑猩猩。
Wow.
哇。
She says they brought this male chimp in
她说他们把这只雄性黑猩猩带进来
To see if Lucy was attracted to chimpanzee males.
看看露西是否被雄性黑猩猩所吸引。
And was she?
她是吗？
Sue Well, the male chimpanzee would sit there with his hand held out toward her and she was very frightened.
苏：嗯，雄性黑猩猩会坐在那里，把手伸向她，她非常害怕。
And she tried to move away.
她试图走开。
It was then, says sue, that she realized that in every way that mattered, Lucy was no longer a chimp.
苏说，就在那时，她意识到，从各个方面来说，露西都不再是黑猩猩了。
She was stranded.
她被困了。
Right in between this great divide that I knew was there between humans and non-humans.
就在我所知道的人类与非人类之间存在的巨大鸿沟之间。
And I did not know how to negotiate this.
我不知道如何协商这个问题。
There is no category in our language, except a mythical one for something that's not human and not animal.
我们的语言中没有任何类别，除了神话中的非人类或非动物的类别。
Insofar as this was an experiment, Maurice Temerlin wrote about it as a kind of triumph.
就这是一个实验而言，莫里斯·特默林将其描述为一种胜利。
Human nurture conquers chimpanzee nature.
人类的教养征服了黑猩猩的天性。
But slowly, over time, nature reasserted itself.
但随着时间的推移，大自然慢慢地重新发挥了作用。
As Lucy grew, became five, and then seven, and then nine--
随着露西长大，变成了五岁，然后是七岁，然后是九岁——
10 going on 11-- Jad Abumrad She became strong says Charles.
10 继续 11-- Jad Abumrad 查尔斯说她变得坚强了。
Really strong.
真的很强。
They had by this time, rigged up an entire portion of the house for this very strong willful animal.
此时，他们已经为这只非常坚强、任性的动物搭建了整个房子。
Behind bars, padded rooms so you can bounce--
在铁窗后面，有软垫的房间，这样你就可以弹跳——
Behind bars?
关在监狱里？
They built a cage inside the house?
他们在房子里建了一个笼子？
In their house.
在他们的房子里。
Jad Abumrad To which defeats the entire purpose of the whole thing.
贾德·阿布姆拉德 (Jad Abumrad To) 违背了整件事的全部目的。
That's right.
没错。
Robert Krulwich Was she destroying things?
罗伯特·克鲁维奇 她在毁坏东西吗？
Oh God, she was tearing the house to sheds.
天哪，她正在把房子拆成棚屋。
Lucy was into everything.
露西对一切都很感兴趣。
She could take a normal living room and turn it into pure chaos in less than five minutes.
她可以在不到五分钟的时间内将一间普通的客厅变成一片混乱。
Now that she's grown and is five to seven times stronger than I am, she could tear us apart, literally.
现在她已经长大了，力量比我强五到七倍，她真的可以把我们分开。
It was more and more challenging and time-consuming and upsetting to the extent that he and his wife finally said, all right, we can't do this anymore.
这变得越来越具有挑战性、耗时和令人不安，以至于他和他的妻子最终说，好吧，我们不能再这样做了。
This is too much.
这太过分了。
Experiment over.
实验结束。
The memoir ends with a big fat question, what will happen to Lucy?
回忆录以一个大问题结束：露西会发生什么？
On the final page, Maurice Temerlin says, well, we know we can't keep her, but we don't know what to do.
在最后一页，莫里斯·特默林说，好吧，我们知道我们无法留住她，但我们不知道该怎么办。
The end.
结束。
I was raised in the romantic tradition and I like books to have happy endings.
我是在浪漫的传统中长大的，我喜欢有幸福结局的书。
If they don't have happy endings, they should have tragic endings.
如果他们没有幸福的结局，就应该有悲惨的结局。
I hate books which have no ending, like this one.
我讨厌没有结局的书，比如这本书。
Yes it is.
是的，确实如此。
Ira Glass This is Janice Carter.
艾拉·格拉斯 我是珍妮丝·卡特。
Not only does she know the ending of the story, she's actually the key player in it.
她不仅知道故事的结局，而且实际上是故事的关键人物。
Yeah, I hope we have a decent conversation because the lines here are really terrible.
是的，我希望我们能进行一次愉快的交谈，因为这里的线路真的很糟糕。
It took us a really long time to find Janice Cater.
我们花了很长时间才找到珍妮丝·卡特。
She lives in a remote part of Gambia in Western Africa.
她住在西非冈比亚的偏远地区。
And that'll become relevant in a second.
这很快就会变得有意义。
How did you meet Lucy?
你是怎么认识露西的？
Janice Carter I met her through one of my part time jobs that I had to put myself through grad school, was to clean Lucy's cage.
珍妮丝·卡特（Janice Carter） 我通过一份兼职工作认识了她，我必须完成研究生学业，那就是清理露西的笼子。
That's how I met her.
我就是这样认识她的。
I cleaned up after her.
我跟着她清理干净。
In fact, Janice says, she was one of the few people who could actually handle Lucy when she was out of her cage.
事实上，珍妮丝说，当露西离开笼子时，她是少数几个能够真正处理露西的人之一。
Besides the Temerlins because she had been quite difficult with previous caretakers.
除了特默林一家之外，因为她与之前的看守者相处得很不好。
Was that because you were stronger than the predecessor caretakers or you were cleverer?
是因为你比前任看守者更强，还是更聪明？
Well, I think it was probably more timing.
嗯，我认为这可能是更及时的。
I think that the time that I entered Lucy's, she was looking something outside of that sphere of mom and dad.
我想当我进入露西家时，她正在寻找爸爸妈妈范围之外的东西。
And I was a friend.
我是一个朋友。
In any case, Janice ended up being in Lucy's life at the exact moment when the Temerlin's finally decided what they were going to do with Lucy.
无论如何，当特默林一家最终决定如何对待露西时，贾妮丝最终出现在了露西的生活中。
They visited a number of-- Jad Abumrad It's 1977.
他们拜访了一些——贾德·阿布姆拉德（Jad Abumrad） 那是 1977 年。
They had just spent a year traveling around the world, looking at different options: zoos, research labs, chimp retirement homes, which were these facilities that were springing up to house chimps like Lucy, who'd been raised by humans or in the circus.
他们刚刚花了一年的时间环游世界，寻找不同的选择：动物园、研究实验室、黑猩猩养老院，这些设施如雨后春笋般涌现，用于安置像露西这样由人类或马戏团抚养的黑猩猩。
But every place they visited she says, was just too depressing for them.
但她说，他们去过的每一个地方对他们来说都太令人沮丧了。
Too cage-like, for this being that they essentially considered their daughter.
太像笼子了，因为他们本质上认为这是他们的女儿。
And so the decision they came to was that the best way to honor Lucy, the best way to really make her happy was to simply let her go in the wild.
所以他们做出的决定是，纪念露西的最好方式，真正让她快乐的最好方式就是让她去野外。
And they asked Janice to help them do it.
他们请珍妮丝帮助他们做到这一点。
Did you have any idea or any experience of what you were getting yourself into?
您对自己要从事的工作有任何想法或经验吗？
Zero.
零。
I didn't have a clue.
我没有任何线索。
Jad Abumrad So after a 22 hour flight, Janice, the Temerlins, and Lucy arrive in Dakar, Senegal.
贾德·阿布姆拉德 (Jad Abumrad) 经过 22 小时的飞行后，珍妮丝、特默林一家和露西抵达塞内加尔达喀尔。
I remember arriving really early in the morning and how hot it was even early in the morning.
我记得早上很早就到了，即使是一大早，天气也很热。
Compared to Oklahoma, this was just different.
与俄克拉荷马州相比，这只是不同的。
Lots of insects and mosquitoes and high, high, high humidity.
昆虫和蚊子很多，湿度非常非常高。
It was the rainy season.
当时正值雨季。
After they landed, she says they piled into a car.
她说，他们着陆后，就挤进了一辆车。
And crossed the Gambia River.
并渡过冈比亚河。
Jad Abumrad And then made their way to a nature reserve.
Jad Abumrad 然后前往自然保护区。
A nature reserve.
自然保护区。
Jad Abumrad Which was basically just a bunch of big cages.
Jad Abumrad 基本上就是一堆大笼子。
Sitting right outside in the jungle.
坐在外面的丛林中。
So they get there, coax Lucy into one of these cases, say their goodbyes for the night, and they leave her to spend her very first night alone outdoors.
于是他们到达那里，哄骗露西进入其中一个案例，告别了当晚，然后他们让她独自在户外度过了第一个晚上。
After a few weeks, Maurice and Jane Temerlin decided to leave.
几周后，莫里斯和简·特默林决定离开。
And the plan was that Janice, for just a little while, would stay behind.
计划是贾妮丝会留下一段时间。
To help Lucy with the transition.
帮助露西完成过渡。
She started to lose her hair and get skin infections.
她开始脱发并出现皮肤感染。
I wasn't happy being there either.
我在那里也不高兴。
I hated it.
我讨厌它。
How long did you think you would be staying there?
你认为你会在那里呆多久？
Three weeks.
三个星期。
Jad Abumrad Three weeks.
贾德·阿布拉德 三周。
Wow.
哇。
And so were saying that Janice Carter has actually never left.
所以我们说珍妮丝·卡特实际上从未离开过。
At the end of those three weeks, there was just no way that I could leave Lucy.
在那三个星期结束时，我根本无法离开露西。
The weeks turn into months, and then into a year.
几周变成几个月，然后变成一年。
And still, Lucy's stressed out.
尽管如此，露西还是压力很大。
She's not eating, her hair is falling out.
她不吃东西，头发都掉光了。
And by this point, a whole nother group of chimps shows up at this nature reserve.
此时，另一群黑猩猩出现在这个自然保护区。
These were former captives like Lucy, and they start to deteriorate as well.
这些都是像露西一样的前俘虏，他们也开始恶化。
So Janice decides what she needs to do is change locations.
因此珍妮丝决定她需要做的是改变地点。
So she takes Lucy and all these other chimps to this abandoned island that she'd found.
所以她带着露西和所有其他黑猩猩来到她发现的这个废弃的岛屿。
It's a long narrow island.
这是一座狭长的岛屿。
Jad Abumrad This is in the Gambia River.
Jad Abumrad 这是在冈比亚河。
It's a mile wide at its widest point.
最宽处有一英里宽。
Very thick screen forest.
非常茂密的屏风森林。
And the idea here was that you would release them and they would be able to do whatever in the island and learn how to climb trees, and learn how to forage, and learn how to establish relationships with each other?
这里的想法是，你将它们释放，它们就可以在岛上做任何事情，学会如何爬树，学会如何觅食，学会如何与彼此建立关系？
Was that the notion?
这是这个想法吗？
Yeah, in a nutshell.
是的，简而言之。
And you would think that if you gave them freedom, they would just jump for joy and that's the last chapter of the book.
你会认为如果你给他们自由，他们就会高兴得跳起来，这就是本书的最后一章。
But it's not what happened.
但事实并非如此。
She says that when Lucy and the other chimps got to the island and she let them loose, they clung to her.
她说，当露西和其他黑猩猩到达岛上并把它们放走时，它们却紧紧抓住她。
During the day she'd walk them around the island and point out of them, here are the fruits you should be eating.
白天，她会带着他们绕岛一周，并指出这些是你应该吃的水果。
These are the leaves you should be eating.
这些是你应该吃的叶子。
They weren't interested in any of that stuff.
他们对这些东西都不感兴趣。
Oh no. David Segal They were actually more interested in her stuff.
哦不。大卫·西格尔 他们实际上对她的东西更感兴趣。
Which was what they were used to.
这是他们习惯的。
I had human objects and tools that I needed for my own survival and they wanted to use them.
我有自己生存所需的人类物品和工具，他们想使用它们。
Like when I would cook or brush my teeth or take a bath, or anything that I wanted to do, they wanted to be doing it with me.
就像当我做饭、刷牙、洗澡，或者任何我想做的事情时，他们都想和我一起做。
Janice figured the only way this was going to work is if she could somehow keep the chimps away from her and her tools.
珍妮丝认为，唯一可行的办法就是她能以某种方式让黑猩猩远离她和她的工具。
And so here's where she does something really radical.
这就是她做了一些非常激进的事情的地方。
She had run into a couple of British army officers who were passing through the Gambi on some kind of wilderness training thing.
她遇到了几位英国军官，他们正在穿越甘比进行某种荒野训练。
And she somehow convinced them to build her a cage, a giant metal industrial cage.
她以某种方式说服他们为她建造了一个笼子，一个巨大的金属工业笼子。
Then to fly it over to her island.
然后飞到她的岛上。
In a helicopter.
在直升机上。
Jad Abumrad And drop it thunk, right in the center.
贾德·阿布姆拉德（Jad Abumrad） 然后重重地把它扔到了正中央。
The thing about this cage is that it wasn't for the chimps.
这个笼子的问题是它不是为黑猩猩设计的。
It was for her.
这是为了她。
Yes.
是的。
Robert Krulwich You lived in a cage?
罗伯特·克鲁维奇 你住在笼子里？
I lived in a cage.
我住在笼子里。
Yes.
是的。
Robert Krulwich Wow.
罗伯特·克鲁维奇 哇。
And in the beginning she says, her cage didn't even have a roof.
她说，一开始，她的笼子甚至没有屋顶。
No. In the rainy season it rained on me.
不，在雨季，雨淋在我身上。
The only thing above her head was this fine wire mesh to keep the chimps out.
她头顶上唯一的东西就是这个细铁丝网，用来防止黑猩猩进入。
The chimps all wanted to be inside with me.
黑猩猩都想和我一起呆在里面。
When I said, no, then they would climb on top of the cage and sleep out in the open on the wire on top right above me.
当我说“不”时，它们就会爬到笼子顶部，睡在我正上方的电线上。
Every time there was any sound in the night of a hyena or anything, they would immediately squeal and defecate and urinate right on top of me.
每当晚上有鬣狗或其他任何声音时，它们就会立即尖叫并在我身上排便和小便。
Then I put [UNINTELLIGIBLE] on the roof.
然后我把[无法辨认]放在屋顶上。
But then they started dancing on the [UNINTELLIGIBLE].
但随后他们开始在[无法辨认]上跳舞。
They really liked the sound that it made.
他们真的很喜欢它发出的声音。
So they were all day long busy dancing.
于是他们整天忙着跳舞。
It sounds funny and it was at times.
听起来很有趣，有时确实如此。
But it distracted them from being chimps.
但这分散了他们对黑猩猩的注意力。
After about a year, says Janice, most of the chimps lost interest in her.
珍妮丝说，大约一年后，大多数黑猩猩对她失去了兴趣。
Because they couldn't get her tools.
因为他们拿不到她的工具。
She was stuck in a cage.
她被困在笼子里。
They gave up.
他们放弃了。
They stopped hanging around her and they'd just wonder off into the forest and forage for themselves.
他们不再在她身边闲逛，而是走进森林，为自己寻找食物。
Yet Lucy did stay behind.
然而露西确实留在了后面。
Due to the obvious reasons, I think she was different than all the rest of the chimps.
由于显而易见的原因，我认为她与其他所有黑猩猩不同。
And so Janice and Lucy entered into a kind of sign language battle of wills.
就这样，贾妮丝和露西进入了一场手语的意志之战。
If I came out of the tent to look to see if they were all gone, there she was right there looking really forlorn at me and using sign language to tell me to come out to be with her.
如果我走出帐篷看看他们是否都走了，她就在那里，一脸悲伤地看着我，并用手语告诉我出来和她在一起。
But Janice would sign to Lucy, no Lucy, go.
但贾妮丝会对露西签名，不露西，走吧。
Go.
去。
Jad Abumrad Lucy would then sign back, no, Janice come.
然后贾德·阿布姆拉德·露西会回来签名，不，贾妮丝来了。
No, Lucy go.
不，露西走吧。
Jad Abumrad No Janice come.
贾德·阿布拉德 贾妮丝没有来。
Lucy go.
露西走吧
Jad Abumrad And this went on and on.
贾德·阿布姆拉德（Jad Abumrad） 这种情况一直持续着。
I tried and I tried and I tried and I tried.
我尝试了，我尝试了，我尝试了，我尝试了。
But Lucy wouldn't move.
但露西一动不动。
She would just stand there, waiting for Janice to help her.
她会站在那里，等待贾妮丝来帮助她。
Sometimes I would stay inside the tent all day long and I would try to ignore her, ignore that she was there.
有时我会整天呆在帐篷里，我会试图忽略她，忽略她在那里。
Thinking that if I ignored her, then she'd go off with the others.
心想如果我不理她，她就会和其他人一起走了。
But that didn't work.
但这没有用。
And if I did look at her, then she would sign that she was hurt.
如果我真的看着她，她就会表示她受伤了。
She would use the sign for hurt.
她会用这个标志来表示受伤。
Meanwhile, she wasn't foraging for herself.
与此同时，她并没有为自己寻找食物。
She was getting thinner.
她越来越瘦了。
And I tried everything and really, really knocked myself out trying to do things for her.
我尝试了一切，并真的非常努力地为她做事。
And I just started to think maybe she never was going to do it.
我开始想也许她永远不会这么做。
And we would argue about it.
我们会为此争论。
I ate everything.
我什么都吃了。
I was eating ants, I was eating the sticky [?
我在吃蚂蚁，我在吃粘稠的[？
latex ?] and figs.
乳胶？]和无花果。
I was doing everyhing that I was trying really nauseating to do just so that she will watch me do it and think, wow, if she's doing it, then I'm going to do it too.
我做了所有我想做的事情，真的很恶心，只是为了让她看着我这样做，然后想，哇，如果她这样做，那么我也会这样做。
And she wouldn't do it.
但她不会这么做。
She'd just turn her head away.
她只会把头转开。
And I honestly thought at one point that she would rather starve to death than have to work for her food.
老实说，我曾经一度认为她宁愿饿死也不愿为食物而工作。
I was losing hope.
我失去了希望。
But incredibly, Janice kept at this for years.
但令人难以置信的是，珍妮丝多年来一直坚持这一点。
She'd have to toss Lucy some food, some of her's, just to keep Lucy from starving.
她得给露西扔一些食物，一些她自己的，只是为了不让露西挨饿。
But she kept at it.
但她坚持了下来。
And then, one evening, after a really, really long day--
然后，一天晚上，在经历了非常非常漫长的一天之后——
Oh, what a drag of a day.
唉，真是累了一天。
Jad Abumrad Janice and Lucy are walking through the forest and they both stop because they're so beat.
贾德·阿布姆拉德·贾尼丝和露西正在森林里散步，他们都停下来了，因为他们太疲惫了。
And crash.
和崩溃。
And we just, we fell asleep.
我们就这样睡着了。
Jad Abumrad On the ground together.
贾德·阿布姆拉德 (Jad Abumrad) 一起躺在地上。
And when I woke up, Lucy was actually holding my hand.
当我醒来时，露西实际上握着我的手。
And she had a leaf.
她有一片叶子。
She's holding out a leaf?
她手里拿着一片叶子？
Janice Carter Yes.
珍妮丝·卡特 是的。
She reached out and she offered it to me.
她伸出手来，把它递给了我。
And then I offered it to her.
然后我就把它给了她。
And she ate it.
她吃了它。
It was a miracle.
这是一个奇迹。
It was an absolute miracle.
这绝对是一个奇迹。
And after that says Janice-- Janice Carter She was turned.
在那之后，珍妮丝——珍妮丝·卡特说，她转变了。
And actually, from that moment on Lucy did start to make the effort and go off?
事实上，从那一刻起，露西就开始努力并开始行动了？
And be a chimp?
并成为一只黑猩猩？
Charles Siebert And be a chimp?
查尔斯·西伯特 成为一只黑猩猩？
That's Charles Siebert again.
又是查尔斯·西伯特。
Charles Siebert And it was not too long after that that Janice went away and--
查尔斯·西伯特 不久之后，珍妮丝就离开了——
Janice says she'd periodically circle in a boat just to keep an eye on Lucy.
珍妮丝说她会定期在船上转来转去，只是为了留意露西。
But she says she never, not once, set foot on that island.
但她说她从来没有踏上过那个岛，一次也没有。
At least not for a year.
至少一年内不会。
Then one day she decided to go back.
然后有一天，她决定回去。
This day is the first day that I went actually on the island.
这一天是我真正上岛的第一天。
She pulled her boat up to the tip of the island where there's just a little clearing and she parked.
她把船拉到岛的顶端，那里只有一小片空地，然后她停了下来。
And as she did, Lucy and the other chimps who had heard the boat, came out of the forest and into the clearing.
当她这样做时，露西和其他听到船声的黑猩猩走出森林，进入空地。
And Lucy and her walked toward each other.
露西和她朝对方走去。
And I took with me some of Lucy's possession that had been important to her, like her mirror.
我还带走了露西的一些对她来说很重要的物品，比如她的镜子。
And she used to like to draw and books, just to see how she responded to it.
她以前喜欢画画和读书，只是想看看她对此有何反应。
And what did she do?
她做了什么？
Janice Carter Well she looked at the things.
珍妮丝·卡特 嗯，她看着这些东西。
She looked at the book.
她看着书。
She looked at herself in the mirror and she signed to herself in the mirror.
她看着镜子里的自己，对着镜子里的自己打了个手势。
Then all of a sudden she grabbed me.
然后突然她抓住了我。
I mean really grabbed me.
我的意思是真的抓住了我。
One arm circled all the way around me and she sort of held me really, really tight.
一只手臂一直环绕着我，她把我抱得非常非常紧。
It really made me breathless and I started crying.
这真的让我喘不过气来，我开始哭泣。
She started begin these soft little pants.
她开始穿上这些柔软的小裤子。
And I'm still pretty certain what she was saying to me was it's OK.
我仍然很确定她对我说的是没关系。
You know, it's all OK now.
你知道，现在一切都好了。
At that moment, somebody in Janice's boat snapped a picture of her and Lucy hugging.
就在那时，珍妮丝船上的有人拍下了她和露西拥抱的照片。
It's a picture that Charles Siebert printed in his book.
这是查尔斯·西伯特印在他的书中的一张照片。
And it's one of those images that when you see it, I don't know why, it just haunts you.
这是其中一张图像，当你看到它时，我不知道为什么，它只是困扰着你。
Lucy has their head against Janice's chest and Janice has her arms around Lucy.
露西把头靠在珍妮丝的胸前，珍妮丝用手臂搂住露西。
It's one of the more fraught moments.
这是最令人担忧的时刻之一。
You have to just look at the picture.
你只需要看图片就可以了。
I mean it sort of made me want to write the book.
我的意思是这让我想写这本书。
Something about the complexity and the invertedness of that picture.
关于那幅图景的复杂性和倒置性。
After that, the other chimps had started to go.
之后，其他黑猩猩也开始离开。
And she wanted to go with them.
她想和他们一起去。
And she got up and she didn't turn back to look at me.
她站了起来，没有回头看我。
She just kept walking.
她只是继续走。
She wanted to go with the other chimps and she did.
她想和其他黑猩猩一起去，她也这么做了。
A year later, Janice went back to visit Lucy again.
一年后，珍妮丝再次回去看望露西。
But when she got there, this time Lucy was gone.
但当她到达那里时，这次露西已经不见了。
And I went to all the different places looking to see if we could find anything.
我去了所有不同的地方，看看是否能找到任何东西。
And we did.
我们做到了。
We found her body.
我们找到了她的尸体。
She was lying right near the place where Janice's cage had been, just a skeleton.
她就躺在珍妮丝笼子所在的地方附近，只是一具骨架。
Her skull and her hands and her feet were separated from the rest of her skeleton.
她的头骨、手和脚都与骨架的其他部分分离。
So how did you know that that was her body?
那么你怎么知道那是她的身体呢？
She had a split between her front teeth and she was very long.
她的门牙之间有裂痕，而且她很长。
And there was nobody else missing.
而且没有其他人失踪。
And maybe the saddest, strangest thing was that--
也许最悲伤、最奇怪的事情是——
We didn't find any signs of her skin or hair.
我们没有发现她的皮肤或头发的任何迹象。
And no one knows actually what happened.
没有人知道到底发生了什么。
But because the hands were taken, which poachers do, they thought one of the conjectures which makes it really unbelievably tragic is that they think that Lucy, always the first to approach humans, just sort of guilelessly approached poachers, not knowing that they were that.
但因为偷猎者的手被抓住了，所以他们认为造成这件事真正令人难以置信的悲剧的一个猜想是，他们认为总是第一个接近人类的露西，只是一种天真地接近偷猎者的方式，而不知道他们就是那样。
And that they just took advantage of their unwitting and over eager prey.
他们只是利用了他们不知情且过于渴望的猎物。
But that was Lucy's end.
但这就是露西的结局。
The scenario that I have developed to cope with her death is that a fisherman or someone, some local person that just happened to pull up next to the land and was going to take a break or [UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE] or do something.
我为应对她的死亡而设计的场景是，一个渔夫或某个人，某个当地人恰好停在陆地旁边，打算休息一下或[难以理解的短语]或做某事。
And because she always felt confidence around humans, she probably approached the person.
而且因为她总是对人类充满信心，所以她可能会接近这个人。
Perhaps she surprised the person and just on reflexes, defense, she was probably shot.
也许她让那个人感到惊讶，仅仅根据反应和防御，她很可能被枪杀了。
I've got no other explanation.
我没有其他解释。
Janice Carter still lives in Gambia.
珍妮丝卡特仍然住在冈比亚。
It's then when she realized that the chimps there would never have a chance to survive unless their human neighbors understood that might be a good thing.
就在那时，她意识到那里的黑猩猩永远没有机会生存，除非它们的人类邻居明白这可能是一件好事。
So these days she spends a lot of her time teaching people in Gambia about chimps, to convince them about the importance of protecting the chimps habitat.
因此，这些天她花了很多时间向冈比亚的人们传授有关黑猩猩的知识，让他们相信保护黑猩猩栖息地的重要性。
Charles Siebert's latest book, all about the midway point between animals and humans is The Wauchula Woods Accord.
查尔斯·西伯特（Charles Siebert）的最新著作《沃楚拉森林协议》（The Wauchula Woods Accord）是关于动物与人类之间的中间点的。
Radiolab is a production of New York's Public radio station WNYC, distributed around the country by NPR.
Radiolab 是纽约公共广播电台 WNYC 的产物，由 NPR 在全国各地发行。
If you go to the Radiolab website this week, you can see that eerie photo that they talked about with Janice Carter and Lucy embracing.
如果你本周访问 Radiolab 网站，你会看到他们谈论的珍妮丝·卡特和露西拥抱的那张怪异照片。
Radiolab.org.
Radiolab.org。
I just want to put a personal plug in here.
我只是想在这里放一个个人插头。
If you're already not downloading the free podcast of Radiolab that comes out every two weeks, you are missing the most adventurous, enjoyable news show in public radio.
如果您还没有下载每两周发布一次的 Radiolab 免费播客，那么您就错过了公共广播电台中最冒险、最有趣的新闻节目。
Thanks to the Radiolab hosts Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich.
感谢 Radiolab 主持人 Jad Abumrad 和 Robert Krulwich。
And to Lulu Miller who did some of the production work on this story.
感谢露露·米勒 (Lulu Miller)，她为这个故事做了一些制作工作。
[MUSIC- "I CAN'T MAKE IT ALONE" BY LOU RAWLS]
[音乐 - LOU RAWLS 的“I Can't MAKE IT ALONE”]
Well our program was produced today by Robyn Semien and myself with Alex Blumberg, Jane Feltes, Lisa Pollak, Sarah Koenig, Alissa Shipp and Nancy Updike.
今天我们的节目由 Robyn Semien 和我本人以及 Alex Blumberg、Jane Feltes、Lisa Pollak、Sarah Koenig、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 制作。
Our senior producer's Julie Snyder with production help from Brian Reed.
我们的高级制片人朱莉·斯奈德 (Julie Snyder) 以及布莱恩·里德 (Brian Reed) 提供制作帮助。
Seth Lind is our production manager.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的生产经理。
Emily Condon's our office manager.
艾米丽·康登是我们的办公室经理。
Our music consultant is Jessica Hopper.
我们的音乐顾问是杰西卡·霍珀。
A program note.
程序注释。
That interview that I did with Dave Hill at the top of today's show about his mom was recorded about three weeks ago.
我在今天节目的开头部分对戴夫·希尔（Dave Hill）进行的关于他母亲的采访是大约三周前录制的。
Last week, his mom, Bernadette Hill, though everybody called her Bunny, died at the age of 80.
上周，他的母亲伯纳黛特·希尔（Bernadette Hill）去世，享年 80 岁，尽管大家都称她为“兔子”。
Dave has been on our show and around our office a lot lately.
戴夫最近经常出现在我们的节目中并在我们的办公室周围。
He wrote the song about the Erie Canal in last week's show.
他在上周的节目中写了一首关于伊利运河的歌曲。
And our thoughts are with him and with his family.
我们的思念与他和他的家人同在。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
[致谢]《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
WBEZ management oversight for our program by our boss, Mr. Tory Malatia, who hears himself here in the credits each week next to the funders and the thank you's and all our names.
我们的老板 Tory Malatia 先生对我们的项目进行 WBEZ 管理监督，他每周都会在片尾字幕中听到自己的声音，旁边是资助者以及我们所有人的名字。
And he just doesn't understand why.
他就是不明白为什么。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Normally, I understand why I'm somewhere.
通常情况下，我明白我为什么在某个地方。
I know why.
我知道为什么。
But I guess I don't know, I don't know why I'm here.
但我想我不知道，我不知道我为什么在这里。
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of this American Life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多关于美国生活的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。