898: An Argument - This American Life
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Sign up for a free Life Partners trial, and you can watch the video “A Night of Stories and Improv.”
注册免费试用《Life Partners》，您可以观看视频“故事与即兴表演之夜”。
This American Life Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass Hey there, everybody.
《美国生活》完整剧集 切换音频和文字记录同步 序言：序言 Ira Glass 大家好。
Ira Glass here.
艾拉·格拉斯在这里。
So our show today is something that producer Chana Joffe-Walt has been collaborating on with reporter Nikole Hannah-Jones.
所以我们今天的节目是制片人查娜·乔菲·沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt) 与记者尼科尔·汉纳·琼斯 (Nikole Hannah-Jones) 合作制作的。
And Nikole's version of the story, which is in The New York Times Magazine, is something that many, many people are discussing online right now.
尼克尔的故事版本发表在《纽约时报》杂志上，现在很多人都在网上讨论。
And I just want to say that if you have seen that article, there are a lot of things in what you're about to hear that are not in the article.
我只想说，如果您看过那篇文章，您将听到的很多内容是文章中没有的。
Particularly, you'll get to hear at length from Nikole's daughter.
特别是，你会听到尼科尔女儿的详细消息。
And there are things that commenters are raising online that get interestingly addressed in our version.
评论者在网上提出的一些问题在我们的版本中得到了有趣的解决。
If you have no idea what I'm talking about, don't worry.
如果您不知道我在说什么，请不要担心。
All of this will become clear.
这一切都将变得清晰。
And with that, here's Chana Joffe-Walt talking with Nikole Hannah-Jones.
以下是查纳·乔夫·沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt) 与尼科尔·汉纳·琼斯 (Nikole Hannah-Jones) 的谈话。
These are recordings made as Nikole was in the process of writing that article.
这些是 Nikole 在撰写该文章时录制的录音。
I'm trying to think when-- I'm like, damn.
我试着去想什么时候——我想，该死。
I know it's been a long time.
我知道已经过去很长时间了。
How long has it been?
已经多久了？
That's Nikole.
那是尼科尔。
And this is a ritual I find myself in with some frequency at my age-- beginning social interactions with an accounting of time that inevitably leads to a conversation about the kids, where they were then and where they are now.
这是我在我这个年纪经常经历的一种仪式——开始社交互动时要计算时间，这不可避免地会导致关于孩子们的对话，他们当时在哪里，现在在哪里。
And my child was just getting ready to start school.
我的孩子正准备开始上学。
And now my child is a sophomore getting ready to celebrate her sweet 16.
现在我的孩子已经上二年级了，正准备庆祝她甜蜜的 16 岁生日。
Nikole and I spent a lot of time talking about our kids 10 years ago and talking about schools.
十年前，尼克和我花了很多时间谈论我们的孩子和学校。
We were reporting together on education, specifically on inequality and systemic racism in American public schools-- how decades of policy choices have left public schools deeply unequal, many schools completely neglected.
我们一起报道教育问题，特别是美国公立学校中的不平等和系统性种族主义——数十年的政策选择如何导致公立学校严重不平等，许多学校完全被忽视。
And meanwhile, Nikole and I had little kids.
与此同时，尼科尔和我有了小孩子。
And in our own lives, the conversation among parents was how to game the system to be sure that your children do not end up in one of those schools.
在我们自己的生活中，父母之间的对话是如何利用系统来确保您的孩子最终不会进入其中一所学校。
Literally every middle-class parent, no matter what their race was, was like, you have to put her in talented and gifted prep courses because they test at four.
从字面上看，每个中产阶级家长，无论他们的种族是什么，都会喜欢，你必须让她参加有才华和天赋的预科课程，因为他们在四点考试。
And you have to decide if you're going to put her in private school.
你必须决定是否要把她送进私立学校。
But you're definitely not going to put her in the neighborhood school.
但你绝对不会把她送到附近的学校。
And I lived in the heavily Black, high-poverty neighborhood.
我住在黑人人口众多、贫困程度很高的社区。
These questions, what are you going to do about school, started right out of the gate.
这些问题，即你打算对学校做什么，从一开始就开始了。
I mean, my response was, she's one.
我的意思是，我的回答是，她就是其中之一。
And people would look at me like, oh, you're so naive.
人们会这样看着我，哦，你太天真了。
I remember people being like, you silly woman.
我记得人们就像，你这个傻女人。
And people actually felt that that was not being a good parent, frankly.
坦率地说，人们实际上觉得这不是一个好父母。
This intense, often judgmental scramble is something parents in places all over America do.
这种激烈的、常常是评判性的争吵是美国各地父母都会做的事情。
But in New York City where Nikole and I live, it's arguably the most extreme version.
但在我和尼克居住的纽约市，这可以说是最极端的版本。
Parents have spreadsheets of schools, endless advice.
家长们有学校的电子表格和无尽的建议。
You're going to want to avoid this school.
你会想要避开这所学校。
Apply to this program.
申请该计划。
Maybe move to a different neighborhood.
也许搬到另一个社区。
Any contortion makes sense, not even to strive for an elite school, but to avoid a, quote, "bad school." What were the bad schools?
任何扭曲都是有道理的，甚至不是为了争取精英学校，而是为了避免进入“糟糕的学校”。哪些学校比较差？
Well, New York City has one of the most racially and economically segregated school systems in the country.
纽约市是全美种族和经济隔离最严重的学校系统之一。
The, quote, "bad schools" that families with options tried to avoid were disproportionately Black, Latino, and poor.
引用一下，有选择的家庭试图避开的“糟糕学校”中，黑人、拉丁裔和贫困者比例过高。
In her reporting, Nikole had seen that Black students all over the country are concentrated in schools like this, where they're less likely to have the best teachers or curricula or facilities.
尼科尔在她的报告中发现，全国各地的黑人学生都集中在这样的学校，在那里他们不太可能拥有最好的教师、课程或设施。
And one reason that happens is that wealthy and middle-class families, like hers, opt out of those schools.
发生这种情况的原因之一是像她这样的富裕和中产阶级家庭选择退出这些学校。
So Nikole, who had a young Black daughter and had been a young Black girl herself, when her daughter Najya got to be school aged, she did not make a spreadsheet.
因此，尼克尔有一个年幼的黑人女儿，她自己也曾是一个年轻的黑人女孩，当她的女儿纳吉亚上学时，她没有制作电子表格。
She did not game the system.
她没有玩弄系统。
She enrolled Najya in a regular public school, the kind of school most New York City kids end up in.
她让纳吉亚在一所普通公立学校就读，这是大多数纽约市孩子最终进入的学校。
The students mostly came from the neighborhood, Black and Latino kids, poor and working class.
学生大多来自社区、黑人和拉丁裔孩子、穷人和工人阶级。
Here's how Nikole saw it.
尼科尔是这样看的。
She thought if more parents with advantage like her are inside a school, they could add their weight.
她认为，如果学校里有更多像她这样有优势的家长，他们就可以增加自己的分量。
They'll be personally invested.
他们将进行个人投资。
They'll be paying attention and seeing when there are problems.
当出现问题时，他们会注意并发现。
They can advocate for a school for funding, for more experienced teachers, for extra programming so all the students in the school, including their own kids, have what they need to learn.
他们可以倡导学校提供资金、提供更有经验的教师、提供额外的项目，以便学校里的所有学生，包括他们自己的孩子，都能获得他们需要学习的东西。
Nikole wrote about all this in a cover story for The New York Times Magazine 10 years ago.
十年前，尼克尔在《纽约时报》杂志的封面故事中讲述了这一切。
And on the cover there was little Najya in her school uniform, afro puffs, serious face looking right at the camera, and the headline--
封面上是穿着校服、爆炸头、严肃的脸直视镜头的小纳吉亚，而标题是——
It was an earthquake of a story, Nikole putting the matter bluntly to parents.
这是一个震撼人心的故事，尼科尔向父母直言不讳地讲述了这件事。
All of us gaming the system is making the system worse.
我们所有人都在玩弄这个系统，结果让这个系统变得更糟。
What if we just stop?
如果我们停下来怎么办？
I was really, really shocked by the impact that this piece had.
我真的非常非常震惊这件作品的影响力。
People were both writing, but also just sharing their story with me at my public speeches or other events that I was giving, like face to face, which was extremely powerful for me as well.
人们都在写作，但也只是在我的公开演讲或我举办的其他活动中与我分享他们的故事，比如面对面，这对我来说也非常强大。
Am I?
我是吗？
What am I supposed to say?
我该说什么？
Chana Joffe-Walt So there's school districts across the country that were suddenly talking about something that they had not been talking about-- not just parents, but actual people controlling school policy.
Chana Joffe-Walt 因此，全国各地的学区突然开始谈论一些他们从未谈论过的事情——不仅仅是家长，还有实际控制学校政策的人。
Yes.
是的。
In some ways, this was my dream as a journalist.
从某些方面来说，这是我作为一名记者的梦想。
I became a writer because I wanted society to change.
我成为一名作家是因为我希望社会发生改变。
So I always write in a way where I'm trying to persuade people by making a moral argument.
所以我总是以一种试图通过道德论证来说服人们的方式写作。
This story just, in some ways, never lost its legs.
从某些方面来说，这个故事从未失去活力。
I was in Boston a few weeks ago, and a woman who has a six-year-old-- her child wasn't even born when the story came out-- said that this story guided her education decision making for her child.
几周前我在波士顿，一位有六岁孩子的妇女——故事发表时她的孩子还没有出生——说这个故事指导了她为孩子做出的教育决策。
In a lot of your events, there were some people who would come up to you to absolve them of the choice that they had made.
在你的很多活动中，有些人会来找你，要求你免除他们所做的选择。
Oh, all the time.
哦，一直以来。
Almost every public event I would do, either during the question and answer session or after the event, they would corner you.
几乎我会做的每一次公共活动，无论是在问答环节还是活动结束后，他们都会把你逼到角落。
And there would inevitably be a parent or parents who would explain why they really, really, really believed in what I was saying, and they believed in the power of equality, but they couldn't make that choice for whatever reason.
不可避免地会有一位或多位父母解释为什么他们真的、真的、真的相信我所说的话，他们相信平等的力量，但无论出于何种原因，他们都无法做出这样的选择。
And I'd always be like, OK.
我总是会说，好吧。
I'm not your priest.
我不是你的牧师。
I cannot absolve you, and I don't want to absolve you.
我无法原谅你，我也不想原谅你。
I wanted you to be forced to be like, what about these kids?
我希望你被迫这样想，这些孩子怎么办？
What do they deserve?
他们应得什么？
So for 10 years, Nikole has talked publicly all over the country about every aspect of this article except how it played out in her own life for her and her kid.
因此，十年来，尼科尔在全国各地公开谈论了这篇文章的各个方面，除了它对她和她的孩子的生活有何影响。
And she decided she wanted to write about what happened and talk through it.
她决定写下所发生的事情并进行讨论。
So, many months ago, Nikole reached out to me to ask if I wanted to hear everything that happened after the article was published.
因此，许多个月前，Nikole 联系我，问我是否想听听文章发表后发生的一切。
Yes, I did.
是的，我做到了。
She thought all the people who read her original essay 10 years ago and thought about it and talked to her about it and passed it on to others deserved to know how it actually turned out.
她认为所有十年前读过她的原创文章、思考过它、与她谈论过它并将其传递给其他人的人都应该知道它的实际结果。
And she thought her daughter, Najya, deserved a chance to share her perspective too.
她认为她的女儿 Najya 也应该有机会分享她的观点。
Najya was eager to talk.
纳吉亚很想说话。
She had a lot she wanted to say about this.
对此，她有很多话想说。
And she has a very different take from her mom's.
她的看法与她妈妈的截然不同。
What you're going to hear is a series of conversations that took place before Nikole published her recent New York Times article as she was trying to figure out in real time what she would write about all this.
你将听到的是在 Nikole 发表她最近的《纽约时报》文章之前发生的一系列对话，当时她试图实时弄清楚她将如何写关于这一切的内容。
I talked to Nikole, and later I talked to Najya, and she talks to her mom.
我和 Nikole 谈过，后来又和 Najya 谈过，她又和她妈妈谈过。
These are our conversations throughout which I was so alert and on edge sometimes.
在我们的谈话中，我时常保持警惕和紧张。
It is rare to hear a person who made a big, influential argument come forward and say, honestly, this is how it actually played out, and then publicly face their teenager.
很少听到一个人提出了一个重大的、有影响力的论点，然后站出来说，老实说，事情的实际结果是这样的，然后公开面对他们的青少年。
Who subjects themselves to that?
谁让自己受制于此？
That's today's show, "An Argument" in five acts, two people willing to talk about some of the country's most enduring problems and look at how they unfolded in their own lives as mother and daughter.
这就是今天的节目，共五幕，两个人愿意谈论这个国家一些最持久的问题，并看看他们作为母女如何在自己的生活中展开。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
It's This American Life, Act One-- Nikole's Choice.
这就是《美国生活》，第一幕——尼科尔的选择。
Nikole had been the one to pick the school back when Najya was little.
纳吉亚还小的时候，尼克尔就选择了学校。
Her husband, Faraji, had been reluctant to send Najya there.
她的丈夫法拉吉一直不愿意送纳吉亚去那里。
He worried they'd be hurting her, asked Nikole, is this us experimenting on our child based on idealism?
他担心他们会伤害她，问尼科尔，这是我们基于理想主义对我们的孩子进行的实验吗？
They'd argued about it.
他们为此争论过。
But once they resolved to do it, Faraji was all in.
但一旦他们决定这样做，法拉吉就全力以赴。
He threw himself into the school.
他全身心地投入到学校里。
Both of them were committed to being involved, and Faraji ended up even more involved than Nikole.
他们两人都致力于参与其中，法拉吉最终比尼科尔参与得更多。
They reassured themselves, knowing that if there were ways the school fell short, they could get Najya help, and they'd be there watching.
他们让自己放心，知道如果学校有任何不足，他们可以得到纳吉亚的帮助，他们会在那里观看。
They were both constantly assessing how it was going, where the school faltered, where it succeeded, what Najya was getting.
他们都在不断地评估学校的进展情况，学校在哪些方面失败了，在哪些方面成功了，纳吉亚得到了什么。
They were tracking all of it, including benefits that don't get factored into lists of New York City's top schools.
他们正在追踪所有这些，包括那些没有被纳入纽约市顶尖学校名单的福利。
She got to spend her first six years of education in a school where most of the kids look like her, where she had incredible Black and-- she had a Chinese American educator.
她在一所学校度过了头六年的教育，那里的大多数孩子都像她，她有令人难以置信的黑人，而且她有一位华裔美国教育家。
She had incredible Black educators.
她有令人难以置信的黑人教育工作者。
She had Caribbean educators.
她有加勒比教育家。
Amazing Black History Month celebrations.
令人惊叹的黑人历史月庆祝活动。
They used to have the students do these self-portraits.
他们过去常常让学生们画这些自画像。
And she would always when she was young make herself a dark-skinned Black woman, which I was like, yes, so you are, as a Black girl, seeing yourself in that lens and not in the lens of this outside world that is saying that that's not beautiful or that's not something to aspire to.
她年轻时总是会把自己塑造成一个黑皮肤的黑人女性，我当时想，是的，所以你作为一个黑人女孩，在那个镜头中看到自己，而不是在这个外部世界的镜头中看到自己，因为外部世界说那不美丽，或者那不是值得向往的东西。
And so in her formative years, she didn't have that experience that I had of feeling less than other kids, of feeling like, is there something wrong with Black people, feeling different.
因此，在她的成长岁月里，她没有像我那样感觉不如其他孩子，感觉黑人是不是出了什么问题，感觉与众不同。
She didn't have that.
她没有那个。
Like all of us, Nikole's own experience raising a child is always running parallel to the memory of her own childhood.
和我们所有人一样，妮可自己抚养孩子的经历总是与她自己的童年记忆并行。
Parenting is an ongoing act of correction.
养育子女是一种持续的纠正行为。
Nikole grew up being bussed from her Black neighborhood to a mostly white, wealthier school.
妮可从小就被公交车从她的黑人社区送到一所以白人为主的富裕学校。
She was part of a desegregation plan.
她是废除种族隔离计划的一部分。
She's talked about the social isolation of being one of the only Black kids in school on our show before, the psychological toll of that.
她之前在我们的节目中谈到过作为学校里唯一的黑人孩子之一所面临的社会孤立，以及由此造成的心理损失。
And she didn't want that for Najya.
她不想让纳吉亚这样。
And Najya was a different kid, growing up differently than Nikole did.
纳吉亚是一个不同的孩子，成长过程与尼克不同。
Her parents had money and college degrees.
她的父母有钱，有大学学位。
Nikole wanted Najya to be in the mix with other kids, to see what she had that others didn't, and to feel comfortable with everyone.
尼科尔希望纳吉亚能够与其他孩子相处，看看她有哪些别人没有的东西，并与每个人相处都感到舒服。
I don't want my child to feel separate from other kids.
我不想让我的孩子感到与其他孩子分离。
I don't want her to feel that she's better than other kids.
我不想让她觉得自己比其他孩子更好。
And she started to recognize the advantages that she had.
她开始认识到自己的优势。
I remember she came home.
我记得她回家了。
There was a classmate whose older brother had been killed.
有一个同学，他的哥哥被杀了。
And Najya was like, he doesn't have a coat.
纳吉亚说，他没有外套。
Can we get a coat for him?
我们可以给他买件外套吗？
She had empathy and humanity.
她有同理心和人性。
And so I felt like that's why we're here.
所以我觉得这就是我们来这里的原因。
I believe in a common good.
我相信共同利益。
I believe that we have to be in it together.
我相信我们必须一起参与其中。
Nikole was prepared for some things in the school to be hard.
尼科尔已经做好了学校里有些事情会变得艰难的准备。
And she and her husband Faraji were in the school often.
她和她的丈夫法拉吉经常去学校。
Faraji volunteered regularly-- organizing parents, talking to teachers, addressing issues.
法拉吉定期做志愿者——组织家长、与老师交谈、解决问题。
He became co-president of the school's PTA.
他成为学校 PTA 的联合主席。
And still there was stuff they didn't know till they heard it from Najya, starting around first grade.
但仍然有一些东西他们不知道，直到从一年级左右开始，他们才从纳吉亚那里听到。
She would come home a lot and say things like, it's hard to concentrate.
她经常回家说一些诸如“很难集中注意力”之类的话。
It's hard to focus, that there was a lot of disruption in the classroom, things that we know often happen in high-poverty schools.
很难集中注意力，课堂上有很多干扰，我们知道这些事情经常发生在高度贫困的学校。
And they were having an experience parents in high-poverty schools sometimes have.
他们也有一些高贫困学校的家长有时也会有的经历。
They were having trouble getting the school to respond, even though they were so involved.
尽管他们如此投入，但他们却很难让学校做出回应。
In fourth grade at a parent-teacher conference, Nikole and Faraji learned Najya was not on grade level, which was not something they'd heard before.
四年级时，在一次家长教师会议上，尼科尔和法拉吉得知纳吉亚不符合年级水平，这是他们以前从未听说过的。
So they immediately emailed her teachers and principals saying, we want to see her schoolwork.
所以他们立即给她的老师和校长发电子邮件说，我们想看看她的作业。
Please send home all her graded tests and assignments so we can look through them and see what's going on.
请将她所有的评分测试和作业寄回家，以便我们可以查看并了解发生了什么。
They wouldn't send the schoolwork home.
他们不会把作业寄回家。
I asked them, and they wouldn't do it.
我问过他们，他们不肯做。
I have to go to the principal.
我得去找校长。
The principal instructs them to send the homework home.
校长指示他们把作业寄回家。
And they say, that's extra work for us.
他们说，这对我们来说是额外的工作。
So I'm having to take off from work.
所以我必须下班了。
I'm coming up to the school all the time.
我每次都会来学校。
I'm like, I need to see her work every week.
我想，我每周都需要看她的工作。
This is crazy.
这太疯狂了。
And finally, the principal is able to get the teachers to send-- they send all this work home that Najya had been doing.
最后，校长能够让老师们把 Najya 一直在做的所有工作都寄回家。
And I start going through the math, and all the problems are wrong.
我开始做数学题，所有的问题都是错的。
Like the answers are wrong?
好像答案都是错的？
Nikole Hannah-Jones The answers.
尼科尔·汉娜·琼斯 答案。
He's just putting a check mark.
他只是打勾而已。
He's not checking her math.
他没有检查她的数学。
He's not correcting her.
他没有纠正她。
He's not teaching her.
他不是在教她。
Every single one is wrong.
每一个都是错误的。
Yeah, devastating parent moment.
是的，毁灭性的父母时刻。
I'm like, what am I doing?
我想，我在做什么？
What am I doing to my child?
我在对我的孩子做什么？
Like, I-- I felt like I was failing my child, like my decision was failing my child.
就像，我觉得我辜负了我的孩子，就像我的决定辜负了我的孩子。
God, I was so worried that I had done wrong by my child in a way that was irreparable.
天哪，我太担心了，我对我的孩子做了不可挽回的错事。
I remember sitting at the table that night.
我记得那天晚上坐在桌边。
And I was-- I mean, I'm not naive, but I was in shock.
我是——我的意思是，我并不天真，但我很震惊。
That was the one part of just what she wasn't learning.
这是她没有学到的一部分。
But there was the other part of this little girl who has all this confidence.
但这个小女孩的另一面却充满了自信。
She thinks she is amazing at math.
她认为她的数学很棒。
She is smart, but she thinks she's academically doing well, and she's not.
她很聪明，但她认为自己的学业成绩很好，但事实并非如此。
And Faraji and I-- I remember as soon as he got home, I think he was maybe at a school board meeting or something like that.
法拉吉和我——我记得他一回到家，我想他可能正在参加学校董事会会议或类似的活动。
And I'm like, look at this.
我想，看看这个。
And it's like, well, what do we do?
就像，好吧，我们该怎么办？
Do we leave?
我们离开吗？
Do we take her out of this?
我们要把她从这件事中解救出来吗？
[SIGHS]
[叹气]
And so we struggled with what to do.
所以我们为该怎么做而苦苦挣扎。
I mean, we felt stuck because those other kids did not deserve not to be taught either and the understanding that the consequences for them were going to be so much greater than for my child.
我的意思是，我们感到陷入困境，因为其他孩子也不应该不被教育，而且我们知道对他们的后果将比对我的孩子严重得多。
These were already kids living in public housing, living in poverty, no power in our society.
这些孩子已经生活在公共住房中，生活贫困，在我们的社会中没有权力。
Faraji and I, we would have these discussions.
法拉吉和我，我们会进行这些讨论。
And we would be like, who are we if the moment it gets really rough, we give up?
我们会想，如果事情变得非常艰难，我们就放弃了，我们是谁？
Then what did we do it for in the first place?
那么我们最初这样做是为了什么？
And in the end, we just felt we couldn't abandon the rest of those kids.
最后，我们只是觉得我们不能抛弃其余的孩子。
They made a new plan.
他们制定了一个新计划。
They would stay in the school, they would get Najya support, and they were going to get the school support.
他们会留在学校，他们会得到 Najya 的支持，他们也会得到学校的支持。
Nikole asked a friend, a former math teacher, to tutor Najya at home.
尼科尔请一位前数学老师朋友在家辅导纳吉亚。
And Nikole and Faraji threw themselves into getting help for the rest of her class.
尼科尔和法拉吉竭尽全力为班上其他同学寻求帮助。
They demanded the principal provide remediation for the entire math class.
他们要求校长为整个数学课提供辅导。
They had numerous meetings with the district superintendent.
他们与地区负责人进行了多次会议。
He agreed to send an extra teacher into the classroom.
他同意多派一名老师到教室。
Their teacher friend recruited other educators to come by the school and offer after-school tutoring.
他们的老师朋友招募了其他教育工作者来学校提供课后辅导。
This was a sprawling, all-consuming project that took so much more time than simply addressing the problem for their own kid.
这是一个庞大、耗时的项目，比简单地为自己的孩子解决问题花费的时间要多得多。
But they'd say to each other, this is why we're here in the school, not just for their own child's success.
但他们会对彼此说，这就是我们来到学校的原因，而不仅仅是为了自己孩子的成功。
Success for them was both and, Najya doing well and all the kids doing well.
他们的成功在于，纳吉亚做得很好，所有的孩子都做得很好。
It's like we recommitted.
就像我们重新承诺一样。
We have to be here.
我们必须在这里。
We have to now make sure all these kids in this classroom's work is getting graded, that these teachers are actually teaching all these kids, not just our child.
我们现在必须确保教室里所有孩子的作业都得到评分，这些老师实际上是在教所有这些孩子，而不仅仅是我们的孩子。
And that's what we did, but it tested us for sure.
这就是我们所做的，但这确实考验了我们。
You said-- it actually might have been from your article, that it can feel unnatural.
你说——它实际上可能来自你的文章，它可能感觉不自然。
It can feel almost unnatural to put your child in a school that you think isn't the best, most perfect school.
把你的孩子送进一所你认为不是最好、最完美的学校可能会感觉很不自然。
Did it feel unnatural to you?
你觉得不自然吗？
I mean, every other decision that I'm making about my child is to try to give my child the best life possible-- trying to put her in the best situation, to give her the best examples, to protect her, make life easy for her.
我的意思是，我对我的孩子所做的每一个决定都是为了尽可能给我的孩子最好的生活——努力让她处于最好的境地，给她最好的榜样，保护她，让她的生活变得轻松。
So no, it didn't feel natural.
所以不，这感觉不自然。
But a lot of things that are the right thing to do don't feel natural.
但很多应该做的事情却感觉不自然。
So that was the balance of things at the end of elementary school, a shaky seesaw.
这就是小学结束时的平衡，摇摇晃晃的跷跷板。
They'd fought for better like they knew they'd have to.
他们为了更好而奋斗，因为他们知道自己必须这么做。
They got help for Najya like they thought they might have to.
他们为纳吉亚提供了他们认为可能需要的帮助。
And they stayed committed.
他们始终坚定不移。
For middle school, Nikole and Faraji chose a school in the neighborhood.
对于中学，尼科尔和法拉吉选择了附近的一所学校。
It was mostly Black and low income.
主要是黑人和低收入。
Test scores were not great.
考试成绩并不好。
A public school plenty of parents would dismiss, but Nikole visited and liked it.
很多家长会拒绝一所公立学校，但尼克尔参观并喜欢它。
Her district superintendent had recommended it as a school with a deeply committed principal who was on the ball, responsive to parents and students.
她的学区负责人推荐这所学校的校长非常忠诚，对家长和学生的反应积极负责。
And important to Nikole, this school had never screened students like some of the more sought-after middle schools.
对尼克尔来说重要的是，这所学校从来没有像一些更受欢迎的中学那样筛选学生。
It didn't select kids based on their grades or attendance records, or anything like that.
它不会根据孩子的成绩或出勤记录或类似的东西来选择孩子。
It was open to everyone.
它向所有人开放。
Najya made friends, joined the Food and Justice Club, did a lot of art.
纳吉亚结交了朋友，加入了食品与正义俱乐部，做了很多艺术创作。
Outside school, she ran track.
在校外，她参加田径比赛。
And then one day in seventh grade, Nikole and Najya were in the car.
七年级的一天，Nikole 和 Najya 坐在车里。
Najya was 12 years old.
纳吉亚当时 12 岁。
Nikole picked her up from school.
尼科尔从学校接她。
And Najya said she and her friends had been researching schools online and looked up their own school.
纳吉亚说，她和她的朋友一直在网上研究学校，并查找了自己的学校。
She was like, did you know my school had test scores like this when you decided to send me here?
她说，当你决定把我送到这里时，你知道我的学校有这样的考试成绩吗？
I paused, hand on the wheel driving.
我停了下来，手放在方向盘上开车。
I'm looking straight ahead.
我直视前方。
And I'm sitting there like, OK, what am I going to say out of my mouth that's going to make sense to her?
我坐在那里想，好吧，我要从我嘴里说些什么对她有意义？
And it's like, I knew this day would come.
就像，我知道这一天会到来。
I wouldn't say I talked a script over in my head of what I would say, but I knew it would come.
我不会说我在脑子里讨论了剧本，但我知道它会到来。
And yet it's like the words that I'm formulating in my head to explain why I chose this really sounded really hollow.
然而，这就像我在脑海中形成的用来解释为什么我选择这个的词语听起来真的很空洞。
Like what?
比如什么？
What were you-- Nikole Hannah-Jones Well, you know.
你是什么—— Nikole Hannah-Jones 嗯，你知道的。
I'm like, yes, I knew that this school had these test scores, but test scores are not the most important thing about a school.
我想，是的，我知道这所学校有这些考试成绩，但考试成绩并不是学校最重要的事情。
And it was really important to me, my own values.
我自己的价值观对我来说非常重要。
I felt it was really important that you be in a school with most of the people in our neighborhood.
我觉得你和我们社区大多数人一起在同一所学校是非常重要的。
And she's sitting there.
她就坐在那里。
And I see out of the corner of my eye this look like, that sounds crazy.
我从眼角余光看到，这听起来很疯狂。
Like, what?
比如，什么？
You mean you had all these resources.
你的意思是你拥有所有这些资源。
You could have sent me anywhere.
你可以派我去任何地方。
You could have sent me to the best schools.
你本可以送我去最好的学校。
And you're saying you just chose not to?
你是说你只是选择不这么做？
So your child is asking you a question that you have-- you've spoken about this on hundreds of stages.
所以你的孩子正在问你一个你有的问题——你已经在数百个舞台上谈到过这个问题。
You've written hundreds of pages about it.
你已经写了数百页关于它的文章。
You know what to say.
你知道该说什么。
Why do you not know what to say?
为什么你不知道该说什么？
I do know what to say.
我确实知道该说什么。
And I say it.
我这么说。
But what I'm saying is, as I'm saying it, I know it sounds hollow coming out of my mouth, but I really believe that.
但我想说的是，正如我所说的那样，我知道这从我嘴里说出来听起来很空洞，但我真的相信这一点。
I mean, I come from a people where I know my life, literally, in a literal way, is only possible because people were willing to sacrifice for a larger good.
我的意思是，我来自一个我知道我的生活只有在人们愿意为更大的利益而牺牲的情况下才可能实现的民族。
I mean sacrifice like put your child through a white mob sacrifice.
我的意思是牺牲，比如让你的孩子经历白人暴民的牺牲。
Sacrifice like get assassinated on your front lawn sacrifice.
牺牲就像在你家前面的草坪上被暗杀一样。
Sacrifice like get thrown off of the land that you worked.
牺牲就像离开你工作的土地一样。
If everyone says, well, I would love to do that-- I believe in the concept of equality, but I can't make a personal sacrifice-- we don't get there.
如果每个人都说，好吧，我很乐意这样做——我相信平等的概念，但我不能做出个人牺牲——我们就无法实现这一目标。
I don't live my life.
我没有过我的生活。
So I know what I'm saying to her is right, but I also know that she is a 12-year-old child who looks at you not to give her moral clarity, but to give her a life of opportunity.
所以我知道我对她说的话是对的，但我也知道她是一个12岁的孩子，她看着你不是为了让她道德清晰，而是为了给她一个生活的机会。
So now I'm just repeating what I've said and hoping that she'll move on.
所以现在我只是重复我说过的话，希望她能继续前进。
But she is not.
但她不是。
She's angry.
她很生气。
It hasn't been-- she's like, it's not a good school, and I could have been at a good school.
她说，这不是一所好学校，而我本来可以在一所好学校。
And so it's like just round and around.
所以这就像是一圈又一圈。
And now I'm like, oh my god.
现在我想，天啊。
She's really not going to let this go.
她真的不会放过这件事。
Did you think, she's going to ask me about this sometime.
你有没有想过，她有时会问我这件事。
I'm going to explain to her.
我要向她解释。
Did you think about just giving her your article?
你有没有想过把你的文章给她？
She's on the cover.
她在封面上。
No. Uh-uh, no. Chana Joffe-Walt Really?
不，呃，呃，不。查纳·乔夫-沃尔特 真的吗？
Has she never read it?
她没读过吗？
Do you think she's never read it?
你以为她没读过这本书吗？
I am going to ask her.
我去问问她。
That's coming up, the answer to that question and so many others.
这就是这个问题以及其他许多问题的答案。
I talked to Najya, and then she and her mom talk.
我和 Najya 交谈，然后她和她妈妈交谈。
No one is a prophet in her own home.
没有人在自己家里是先知。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Chana Joffe-Walt sitting in for Ira Glass.
我是查娜·乔夫-沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt)，代理艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass)。
Today's show, "An Argument." Act Two-- Najya.
今天的节目是《争论》。第二幕——纳吉亚。
Because of who Nikole is and what we've talked about over years, I've thought about Najya more than I've thought about most other children who are not my own.
由于 Nikole 的身份以及我们多年来谈论的内容，我对 Najya 的思考比对大多数非我自己的孩子的思考要多。
From when she was little, I'd heard what Nikole wanted for her young daughter.
从她很小的时候起，我就听说妮可对她小女儿的期望。
I'd read her old article where she'd written about what she hoped for.
我读过她的旧文章，她写下了她的希望。
And I've wondered, what's this all going to be like for Najya?
我想知道，这对纳吉亚来说会是什么样子？
Somehow back then, I never really imagined there would be a day when I might get to just ask her.
不知何故，当时我从未真正想象过有一天我可以直接问她。
OK, your mom told me she didn't know if you had read the article about choosing your elementary school.
好吧，你妈妈告诉我她不知道你是否读过关于选择小学的文章。
Have you read that article?
你读过那篇文章吗？
Well, no, I have not.
嗯，不，我没有。
I've never read it.
我从来没有读过它。
I've never found myself to read it.
我从来没有发现自己读过它。
Maybe I should because of my mom.
也许我应该因为我妈妈。
Well, also because it's about you.
好吧，也是因为它与你有关。
Najya Hannah-Jones Well, yeah, but I never read it.
Najya Hannah-Jones 嗯，是的，但我从来没有读过。
Najya has been listening to her mom give talks her whole life.
纳吉亚一生都在听她妈妈演讲。
She says she knows what the article was about, her school.
她说她知道这篇文章是关于她的学校的。
She went to her school.
她去了她的学校。
She lived it.
她活了下来。
She didn't have to read about it.
她不必阅读它。
What was the school her mom chose, wrote 10,000 words about choosing, actually like for Najya?
她妈妈选择了哪所学校，写了 10,000 字关于选择的事情，实际上 Najya 喜欢哪所学校？
Yeah, I don't really remember a lot from elementary.
是啊，我小学的时候记不太清了。
I was really into art.
我真的很喜欢艺术。
I liked to draw a lot.
我很喜欢画画。
I was-- yeah, I was loud.
我是——是的，我声音很大。
I still am chatty.
我还是很健谈的。
No. It was just a school that she picked for me.
不，这只是她为我选择的一所学校。
I didn't really care about it.
我真的不太关心它。
I wasn't ever thinking about stuff like that.
我从来没有想过这样的事情。
She was lonely sometimes when girls were mean, regular kid stuff.
当女孩们都是刻薄的、普通的孩子玩意儿时，她有时会感到孤独。
Najya remembers fourth grade, they didn't do much in class and that her mom had issues with her teachers.
纳吉亚记得四年级时，他们在课堂上没有做太多事情，而且她妈妈和老师之间存在矛盾。
She thought it was weird that her third grade teacher was absent a lot, but fifth grade was fun.
她觉得三年级老师经常缺席很奇怪，但五年级很有趣。
It was all fine.
一切都很好。
What Najya wanted to talk about more was middle school, sixth grade.
纳吉亚更想谈论的是中学、六年级。
That's when things got hard for her.
那时她的处境就变得困难了。
She says in middle school, other kids made it hard to learn.
她说，在中学时，其他孩子让学习变得很困难。
There were fights.
有人打架。
Problems all the time.
问题一直存在。
We wouldn't even be able to play in gym because the kids wouldn't stop acting out.
我们甚至不能去健身房玩耍，因为孩子们不停地胡闹。
It would be all the time.
一直都是这样。
They would be throwing fart bombs and stuff.
他们会扔放屁炸弹之类的东西。
There was no punishment.
没有惩罚。
It wasn't stopped.
它没有被阻止。
So because of that, it's just not fun.
因此，这并不有趣。
You can't do anything, and they're ruining your chances to do things just because they can't act right.
你什么也做不了，而他们却因为不能正确行事而毁掉你做事的机会。
It was really bad.
真的很糟糕。
I think I would come home complaining to my mom all the time like, bro, these kids are always fighting, and they're always disrupting class.
我想我会一直回家向妈妈抱怨，兄弟，这些孩子总是打架，他们总是扰乱课堂。
I'm not trying to be in this type of environment.
我不想处于这种环境中。
And I wasn't enjoying it.
我并不喜欢它。
I remember we got our report cards back.
我记得我们拿回了成绩单。
I think there was seven kids in that class who were on honor roll, and the rest were like, they didn't.
我认为那个班有七个孩子上了荣誉榜，其余的则好像，他们没有。
The school was so easy, and how did you not get-- I don't know.
学校那么容易，你怎么没考上——我不知道。
How did you feel about that?
你对此有何感想？
Najya Hannah-Jones I thought it was bad.
纳吉亚·汉娜·琼斯 我认为这很糟糕。
I think I complained about it to my friends, like, we don't get anything.
我想我向我的朋友们抱怨过，我们什么也没得到。
We're not getting any work.
我们没有得到任何工作。
We're not getting any work at home.
我们在家没有任何工作。
You wanted homework?
你想要作业吗？
Najya Hannah-Jones We did.
纳吉亚·汉娜·琼斯 我们做到了。
We did.
我们做到了。
We honestly did want to get more things because we knew that we weren't learning enough.
老实说，我们确实想要得到更多的东西，因为我们知道我们学得还不够。
We didn't know anything.
我们什么都不知道。
Najya was building her own assessment of her school, drawing on what she was seeing and what she wanted for herself.
纳吉亚根据她所看到的情况以及她对自己的期望，对她的学校进行了自己的评估。
For her, a good school had homework.
对她来说，好学校是有作业的。
A good school was an organized school.
一所好学校是一所有组织的学校。
Najya used that word a lot when we talked.
我们谈话时纳吉亚经常使用这个词。
Her school was not organized.
她的学校没有组织起来。
And then in seventh grade, Najya's teachers and friends started talking about the next step, high school.
然后到了七年级，纳吉亚的老师和朋友开始谈论下一步，即高中。
New York City has hundreds of high schools.
纽约市有数百所高中。
The top schools, there are things you have to do.
顶尖的学校，有你必须要做的事情。
You have to apply, get good grades.
你必须申请，取得好成绩。
You have to take a test or audition.
您必须参加测试或试镜。
It's a whole process.
这是一个完整的过程。
You need to do research, go on tours.
你需要做研究，去旅行。
You have to engage.
你必须参与。
If you're an ambitious seventh grader or even just a kid who cares about status as nearly every seventh grader does, this is when you start to become aware, if you're not already, that there are, quote, "good schools" and "bad schools," and you fit somewhere in that system.
如果你是一个雄心勃勃的七年级学生，或者只是一个像几乎每个七年级学生一样关心地位的孩子，那么此时你就开始意识到，如果你还没有意识到，有“好学校”和“坏学校”，而你适合这个系统中的某个地方。
And if you didn't know about it till now, you are probably already behind.
如果您直到现在才知道这一点，那么您可能已经落后了。
Najya and her friends started researching the top high schools.
纳吉亚和她的朋友们开始研究顶尖高中。
It was in doing that research that they looked up their own school.
正是在进行这项研究的过程中，他们查找了自己的学校。
And we were just shocked.
我们只是感到震惊。
Test scores were really low.
考试成绩确实很低。
Everything about the school was really low.
学校的一切都非常低。
What did you think when you saw that?
当你看到这个的时候你有什么感想？
Najya Hannah-Jones I was like, wow.
Najya Hannah-Jones 我当时想，哇。
That's why we're not getting anything.
这就是为什么我们什么也没得到。
We have nothing.
我们什么都没有。
You see all the reviews.
你会看到所有的评论。
You see the parent reviews.
你看家长的评论。
You see student reviews.
你看学生的评论。
You see everything.
你看到了一切。
And test scores.
还有考试成绩。
Najya Hannah-Jones Mm-hmm.
纳吉亚·汉娜·琼斯 嗯嗯。
I think we looked at those scores all the time.
我想我们一直在关注这些分数。
Like, you kept returning?
就像，你一直回来？
Najya Hannah-Jones Mm-hmm.
纳吉亚·汉娜·琼斯 嗯嗯。
We kept looking at other sites, like how the school was.
我们一直在查看其他网站，比如学校的情况。
And it was not great.
这并不好。
She remembers bringing this information to her mom, and she remembers her mom trying to explain her thinking, but Najya doesn't remember exactly what her mom said because she says it made no sense.
她记得把这些信息带给她妈妈，她记得她妈妈试图解释她的想法，但纳吉亚不记得她妈妈到底说了什么，因为她说这毫无意义。
I didn't ever agree with her response.
我一直不同意她的回答。
All I know is that I wasn't having it.
我只知道我没有。
I was just like, why?
我当时想，为什么？
Why am I here?
我为什么在这里？
Act Three-- Najya's Choice.
第三幕——纳吉亚的选择。
Nikole tried to answer Najya's questions over and over, but Nikole understood things about Najya's school and the school system in general that Najya, as an 11 and 12-year-old, did not.
Nikole 试图一遍又一遍地回答 Najya 的问题，但 Nikole 了解 Najya 学校和整个学校系统的情况，而 Najya 作为 11 岁和 12 岁的孩子却不了解。
Nikole knew that because her middle school didn't screen students, because it didn't select some students and turn others away, what that meant is the school had a high concentration of kids who showed up on day one to middle school already behind.
妮可知道，因为她的中学没有筛选学生，因为它没有选择一些学生并拒绝其他学生，这意味着学校有一个高度集中的孩子，他们在进入中学的第一天就已经落后了。
Most kids had gone to elementary schools that were struggling, many had diagnosed learning disabilities, and almost all of them experienced poverty outside of school.
大多数孩子上的小学都很困难，许多人被诊断出有学习障碍，几乎所有人都经历过校外贫困。
From Nikole's perspective, Najya's middle school was doing a pretty good job of trying to serve all its students.
从 Nikole 的角度来看，Najya 的中学在为所有学生提供服务方面做得非常好。
Nikole had been inside lots of schools as a reporter.
尼科尔曾作为记者去过很多学校。
And to her, Najya's school wasn't one that was neglecting students or lacking organization.
对她来说，纳吉亚的学校并不是一所忽视学生或缺乏组织的学校。
It seemed organized and deeply caring, and unlike Najya's elementary school, responsive.
它看起来组织严密，充满关爱，而且与纳吉亚的小学不同，它反应灵敏。
When Nikole brought Najya's complaints to teachers and administrators, they got back to her right away.
当 Nikole 将 Najya 的投诉提交给老师和管理人员时，他们立即回复了她。
They tried in earnest to address things.
他们认真地尝试解决问题。
But none of that was changing how Najya felt.
但这些都没有改变纳吉亚的感受。
She kept returning to their argument about why she was at this school, why, at sometimes random moments.
她不断地回到他们关于她为什么在这所学校的争论，为什么，有时是随机的时刻。
She would-- we'd be in the kitchen preparing food, and she'd be like, I still don't understand why you did that.
她会——我们在厨房准备食物，她会说，我仍然不明白你为什么这么做。
And I'm like, oh my god.
我想，天啊。
[LAUGHS] I'm like, she's not going to let-- she's not letting it go.
[笑]我想，她不会放手——她不会放手。
And you know what she said was like, you weren't in the classroom.
你知道她说的是什么，你不在教室。
It's not your experience.
这不是你的经历。
Nikole Hannah-Jones It's not your education.
尼科尔·汉娜·琼斯 这不是你的教育。
It's not your experience.
这不是你的经历。
And I deeply heard that.
我深深地听到了这一点。
And she's not an eight-year-old child.
而且她也不是八岁的孩子了。
She is a young woman who's done her research.
她是一位做过研究的年轻女性。
And I'm like, I just don't want-- I don't want this to haunt me for the rest of our relationship.
我想，我只是不想——我不想让这件事在我们剩下的关系中困扰我。
That's why what I ultimately decided-- this is like-- I don't know-- fifth, sixth conversation slash argument where I said, you know, you are absolutely justified in feeling how you feel.
这就是为什么我最终决定——这就像——我不知道——第五、第六次谈话斜杠争论，我说，你知道，你有绝对合理的感受你的感受。
You certainly, if I had made different choices, would have had very different educational experience.
如果我做出不同的选择，你当然会有非常不同的教育经历。
And because of that, I'm going to now let you make the choice for your educational experience going forward.
正因为如此，我现在要让你为你未来的教育经历做出选择。
For high school, I would let her choose.
对于高中，我会让她选择。
Wow.
哇。
Nikole Hannah-Jones She would decide what school she wanted to visit, and she would decide what school she wanted to apply for.
Nikole Hannah-Jones 她将决定她想参观哪所学校，她将决定她想申请哪所学校。
If anybody has ever parented a 12-year-old girl, then you know her reaction was like, yeah, but you still shouldn't have did that.
如果有人养育过 12 岁的女孩，那么你就会知道她的反应是，是的，但你仍然不应该那样做。
I still want to talk about what you did.
我还是想谈谈你做了什么。
You're trying to move on, but I'm not over that.
你试图继续前进，但我还没有结束。
So that was her response.
这就是她的回应。
But then she was like, really?
但后来她就想，真的吗？
You're really going to let me?
你真的要让我吗？
And I was like, absolutely.
我当时想，绝对是。
OK.
好的。
Great.
伟大的。
I'm going to a school that I want for myself.
我要去一所我自己想要的学校。
I'm going to a school that's going to be hard to get into, that's really good, that has high scores.
我要去一所很难进的学校，那所学校真的很好，分数很高。
That's what I wanted to do.
这就是我想做的。
I wanted better education, just learning more or homework, having more curriculars or just more subjects.
我想要更好的教育，只是学习更多或家庭作业，有更多的课程或只是更多的科目。
I didn't want to be in a majority Black school.
我不想进入黑人占多数的学校。
I thought I wanted more of a diverse community.
我想我想要一个更加多元化的社区。
Why?
为什么？
Najya Hannah-Jones I felt like if I was in a diverse community, a more diverse or less Black-- or not less Black, but more diverse community, I would get better education because that's what it seemed like.
纳吉亚·汉娜·琼斯（Najya Hannah-Jones） 我觉得如果我在一个多元化的社区，一个更多元化或更少黑人的社区，或者不是更少黑人，但更多元化的社区，我会得到更好的教育，因为这就是它看起来的样子。
Because you see it in your school.
因为你在学校里就能看到它。
You see all these schools' prestigious, they're mainly Asian or mainly white.
你看这些学校都很有名气，他们主要是亚洲人或者主要是白人。
And it's like, if I've been in these schools where it's majority Black, it's like I'm not getting anything from it at all.
就好像，如果我在这些黑人占多数的学校待过，我就好像根本没有从中得到任何东西。
If you look at the top schools, they're majority white.
如果你看看顶尖学校，你会发现它们大多数是白人。
And it's like, if you want to go to a good school, you're going to have to go to a majority white school.
就像，如果你想上一所好学校，你就必须去一所白人占多数的学校。
Why?
为什么？
Nikole Hannah-Jones Well, what my daughter did was looked up the top-achieving schools in the city.
尼科尔·汉娜·琼斯 好吧，我女儿所做的就是查找城里成绩最好的学校。
She found out the best, in terms of test score, schools in the city.
她找到了城里考试成绩最好的学校。
And that was her list.
这就是她的清单。
What'd you do with your face?
你对你的脸做了什么？
Nikole Hannah-Jones No, I don't think I actually-- it's impossible for me to have a neutral face, but I try.
Nikole Hannah-Jones 不，我不认为我实际上——我不可能拥有一张中立的面孔，但我尝试了。
I work very hard.
我工作非常努力。
I'm like, I cannot believe this.
我想，我简直不敢相信这一点。
My child came up with the exact opposite of my life's work.
我的孩子的想法与我一生的工作完全相反。
And every school on there is a school that screens and has hardly no Black kids.
那里的每所学校都有一所进行筛查的学校，而且几乎没有黑人孩子。
Najya organized everything for high school.
纳吉亚为高中安排了一切。
She researched the schools, found out when they had tours, how you get into them.
她对这些学校进行了研究，了解它们何时举办旅行团以及如何进入它们。
The only time Nikole intervened was to insist that Najya at least tour a selective, high-achieving, majority Black high school.
尼科尔唯一一次介入是坚持要求纳吉亚至少参观一所精选的、成绩优异、黑人占多数的高中。
Otherwise, Nikole kept her word and let Najya take the reins.
除此之外，Nikole 信守诺言，让 Najya 掌权。
Najya began imagining more and more what she wanted from school, where she was heading in high school and beyond high school.
纳吉亚开始越来越多地想象她想从学校得到什么，以及她在高中和高中毕业后的发展方向。
Nikole teaches at Howard University, an HBCU, the mecca of Black education and excellence.
尼科尔在霍华德大学任教，该大学是一所黑人教育和卓越的圣地。
Yeah, I mean, look, I've been ingraining Howard into her since she was three years old.
是的，我的意思是，看，从她三岁起，我就一直在让霍华德融入她的内心。
And then one day she comes back from middle school, and she says she wants to go to Harvard.
然后有一天，她从中学回来，她说她想去哈佛。
And I was like, we have never mentioned the word "Harvard" in our household.
我当时想，我们家从来没有提到过“哈佛”这个词。
What the hell is happening?
到底发生了什么？
[LAUGHTER] I'm like, what?
[笑声]我想，什么？
But like she did for high schools, she looked up the top-ranked school and decided that's where she wanted to go.
但就像她对高中所做的那样，她查找了排名靠前的学校，并决定那就是她想去的地方。
Harvard.
哈佛。
Yes.
是的。
I'm telling you, we don't even discuss PWIs as an option in our household.
我告诉你，我们甚至不讨论注射吸毒者作为我们家庭的一个选择。
Predominantly white institution.
以白人为主的机构。
Nikole Hannah-Jones Yeah, predominantly white--
尼科尔·汉娜·琼斯 是的，主要是白人——
Yeah.
是的。
Nikole Hannah-Jones And especially not Harvard.
尼科尔·汉娜·琼斯 尤其是哈佛。
Like, Harvard?
比如，哈佛？
Child.
孩子。
Because I'm like, did I mishear you?
因为我想，我是不是听错了？
Did you accidentally say Howard?
你不小心说的是霍华德吗？
No.
不。
I love that your child's rebellion is to tell her mother that she wants to go to Harvard University.
我喜欢你孩子的叛逆是告诉她妈妈她想去哈佛大学。
You have to admire that the child is like, whatever is the best, that's what I want.
你不得不佩服这孩子就是这样，无论什么最好的，那就是我想要的。
Yeah.
是的。
Nikole Hannah-Jones I both admired it and was appalled at the same time.
Nikole Hannah-Jones 我既钦佩它，同时又感到震惊。
Like, where are you getting these ideas?
比如，你从哪里得到这些想法？
Who is putting these crazy ideas in your head?
谁把这些疯狂的想法放进你的脑子里？
Najya submitted her high school application, ranking a dozen high-achieving schools, and she got into her top choice-- a majority white and Asian school in a wealthy neighborhood almost an hour commute by subway from her home.
纳吉亚提交了高中申请，对十几所成绩优异的学校进行了排名，最后她进入了她的首选学校——一所以白人和亚裔为主的学校，位于一个富裕的社区，距离她家有近一个小时的地铁通勤时间。
She started freshman year.
她开始读一年级。
Within two weeks, she was ready to transfer.
两周之内，她就准备好转学了。
She wanted to transfer out of the school.
她想转学。
Wow.
哇。
Nikole Hannah-Jones And I told her no. I was like, look, we went through a whole process.
尼科尔·汉娜·琼斯 我告诉她不。我当时想，看，我们经历了整个过程。
You're going to stay here, and we're going to figure it out.
你要留在这里，我们会想办法解决的。
This is life.
这就是生活。
This is real life.
这就是现实生活。
The girls were different.
女孩们则不同。
I noticed that there were kids that were comfortable saying the N-word.
我注意到有些孩子很乐意说“N”字。
I also experienced that.
我也经历过这一点。
Yeah.
是的。
That's everywhere, but it was like I never really experienced that in person.
这种事随处可见，但我好像从来没有亲身经历过。
There was like kids that also came from very good homes, kids that also came from very rich households.
有些孩子也来自非常好的家庭，有些孩子也来自非常富裕的家庭。
And did that affect you or-- Najya Hannah-Jones I thought they were too bougie and had high egos, but unaware, don't know about anything social-wise, nothing about Black people or nothing about this, just unaware about a lot of things and a lot of things in history, just really privileged and spoiled.
这对你有影响吗，或者——纳吉亚·汉娜·琼斯（Najya Hannah-Jones），我认为他们太狂妄了，自负得很，但他们没有意识到，不知道任何社会方面的事情，对黑人一无所知，或者对此一无所知，只是不知道历史上的很多事情和很多事情，只是非常特权和被宠坏了。
When I got into that school and they were talking about all these things, I'm like, what are we talking about?
当我进入那所学校时，他们正在谈论所有这些事情，我想，我们在谈论什么？
I never learned this.
我从来没有学过这个。
So it was bumpy.
所以一路坎坷。
It was hard.
这很难。
It was really stressful.
压力真的很大。
Yeah, that sounds stressful.
是的，听起来压力很大。
Najya Hannah-Jones I've never got a C before.
Najya Hannah-Jones 我以前从未得过 C。
I never really got those grades in middle school.
我在中学时从未真正取得过这些成绩。
And when I saw that, now it was just like-- [GROANS] It sucked a lot.
当我看到这一点时，现在就像-[呻吟]这太糟糕了。
She didn't feel like she fit in.
她觉得自己不适合。
She didn't feel like she had anything in common with most of the kids.
她觉得自己和大多数孩子没有任何共同点。
One of them, yeah.
其中之一，是的。
Probably the most devastating thing is you spend their whole lifetime trying to build up the sense of themselves just as a parent parenting a child, but also me trying to build my child's confidence as a Black girl and the inherent intellect and worth.
也许最具毁灭性的事情是，你花了一生的时间试图建立自己作为父母养育孩子的感觉，但我也试图建立我的孩子作为黑人女孩的信心以及固有的智力和价值。
And then it can be destroyed in two weeks in this school.
然后它就可以在这所学校两周内被摧毁。
Freshman year, it was the first time a teacher ever called about behavior for Najya.
大一那年，这是第一次有老师打电话询问纳吉亚的行为。
That had never happened.
那从未发生过。
She had never had behavior problems.
她从未有过行为问题。
She was angry.
她很生气。
She was really angry for much of that year.
那一年的大部分时间她都非常生气。
Nikole and Faraji focused on getting Najya tutoring and support.
Nikole 和 Faraji 专注于获得 Najya 的辅导和支持。
And Najya settled in.
纳吉亚也安顿下来。
She made new friends.
她结识了新朋友。
She caught up academically.
她在学业上迎头赶上。
She stopped asking to transfer.
她不再要求转学了。
She's doing well.
她过得很好。
This was the new status quo.
这就是新的现状。
And this is where they were when I started talking to Nikole and Najya, toward the end of Najya's sophomore year, the second year at the high school that she had chosen for herself.
当我开始与 Nikole 和 Najya 交谈时，他们就在这儿，那是在 Najya 大二快结束的时候，也就是她为自己选择的高中的第二年。
Nikole and Najya had come into the studio to talk, not knowing exactly what the other thought about this whole experience now.
尼科尔和纳吉亚来到工作室谈话，不知道对方现在对这整个经历有何看法。
Some time had passed, and they'd stopped fighting about it.
一段时间过去了，他们不再为此争吵。
Nikole had not written her new article about all of this yet, and she had questions.
妮可还没有写出关于这一切的新文章，她有疑问。
She thought now that Najya was doing so well-- she'd been able to get into her top school and succeed there-- Nikole wanted to know if I asked Najya what she thought of her mom's choice, would she still say it was terrible?
她认为现在纳吉亚表现得很好——她已经能够进入顶尖学校并在那里取得成功——尼科尔想知道如果我问纳吉亚她对她妈妈的选择有何看法，她还会说这很糟糕吗？
Act Four-- Nikole and Najya.
第四幕——尼科尔和纳吉亚。
When they showed up together, I could tell just by watching the way they interact that Nikole and Najya enjoy spending time together.
当他们一起出现时，我可以通过观察他们互动的方式看出 Nikole 和 Najya 喜欢在一起度过时光。
They're comfortable.
他们很舒服。
Najya's 16 years old now.
Najya 现在 16 岁了。
She tells me her top pick for college is Howard-- not Harvard, Howard.
她告诉我她的大学首选是霍华德——而不是哈佛，霍华德。
She likes it, she says, because it's in DC.
她说，她喜欢它，因为它在华盛顿。
It's got a nice campus.
它有一个漂亮的校园。
Plus, she says, I'd get to be with my mom.
另外，她说，我可以和妈妈在一起。
They both act like this is a completely regular thing for a 16-year-old to say and want, and that is how I know they're close and that a lot has changed.
他们俩的表现就好像这对于一个 16 岁的孩子来说是一件完全正常的事情，这就是我知道他们很亲密并且发生了很多变化的原因。
I had talked to Nikole about all this twice on her own before she came in with Najya.
在妮可和纳吉亚一起进来之前，我曾两次单独和她谈过这一切。
And I talked to Najya alone for almost an hour and a half while her mom waited outside.
我和纳吉亚单独聊了将近一个半小时，她妈妈则在外面等着。
I got Najya's thoughts on the experiences she'd had in the different schools.
我了解了纳吉亚对她在不同学校的经历的想法。
And it wasn't until the very end when I said, is there anything else you want to say, that Najya mentioned the argument with her mom.
直到最后我说，你还有什么话要说的时候，纳吉亚才提到了和她妈妈的争吵。
They hadn't had it for a long time, but Najya said she had brought it up again when she was feeling behind at the beginning of high school.
他们已经很久没有提起这件事了，但纳吉亚说，当她在高中开始时感到落后时，她又提起了这件事。
What'd she say?
她说什么？
Najya Hannah-Jones She said the same thing.
Najya Hannah-Jones 她也说了同样的话。
She said-- I don't know what she said.
她说——我不知道她说了什么。
I wouldn't know what she said.
我不知道她说了什么。
She said something.
她说了些什么。
Najya Hannah-Jones All I know is that I complained to her, so.
Najya Hannah-Jones 我只知道我向她抱怨过，所以。
So you know that she said the same thing that she said the last time you had the conversation, but you don't actually know what that thing was?
所以你知道她说了上次你们谈话时说的同样的话，但你实际上不知道那是什么？
Yes.
是的。
Chana Joffe-Walt I think we could probably get the answer from her because she's sitting right outside here.
Chana Joffe-Walt 我想我们可以从她那里得到答案，因为她就坐在外面。
Nikole, you up for coming in?
尼科尔，你准备进来吗？
Nikole sits next to Najya, and they talk.
尼科尔坐在纳吉亚旁边，他们聊天。
I'm going to bleep the name of Najya's high school when it comes up in this conversation.
当谈话中提到 Najya 高中的名字时，我会发出声音。
They're sitting side by side, and Nikole begins laying out her case.
他们并排坐着，尼科尔开始摆出她的案子。
She's clear, vulnerable, tells Najya this was a hard choice, the hardest choice.
她很清醒，也很脆弱，她告诉纳吉亚，这是一个艰难的选择，最艰难的选择。
Najya still seems to be listening carefully.
纳吉亚似乎仍在认真地听着。
As Nikole says, public education is just so deeply unequal and always has been.
正如尼科尔所说，公共教育一直以来都是极度不平等的。
Black kids in particular segregated and denied a fair and equal education.
黑人孩子尤其被隔离并被剥夺公平和平等的教育。
What do we then do?
那我们该怎么办呢？
Do we just say, well, there's nothing I can do?
我们是否只是说，好吧，我无能为力？
Or do you try in some way to make some intervention?
或者你尝试以某种方式进行一些干预？
It's like, why should my child be the one that's rescued?
就像，为什么我的孩子应该是被救的那个？
You should escape what we consign so many other kids just like you to.
你应该逃避我们让许多像你一样的其他孩子经历的事情。
I just will never feel right about that.
我只是永远不会对此感觉正确。
Why?
为什么？
It makes no sense.
这毫无意义。
You're talking about, oh, I'm just going to give you the worst just because it's not fair that you-- I didn't ask to be born.
你说的是，哦，我只是想给你最坏的结果，因为你——我没有要求出生，这不公平。
All you're supposed to do is just put me in a good school.
你所要做的就是让我进入一所好学校。
Like, oh, well, I didn't want to put you in a great school and have you have advantages over other kids.
就像，哦，好吧，我不想让你进入一所好学校，让你比其他孩子有优势。
Isn't that what you want?
这不是你想要的吗？
Isn't that what you want me to have?
这不是你想要我拥有的吗？
Is that not a normal thing you want me to have?
这不是你想要我拥有的正常的东西吗？
You don't want me to have this--
你不想让我拥有这个——
Right, OK, so-- but I'm not seeing them.
好吧，那么——但我没有看到他们。
I'm saying school-wise.
我说的是学校方面。
I'm in school every day.
我每天都在学校。
I was in that building every single day.
我每天都在那栋大楼里。
That doesn't make sense.
这没有道理。
I'm there more than home.
我在那里不仅仅是在家里。
Obviously, I get more in general, but school is the most important thing.
显然，我总体上得到了更多，但学校是最重要的。
That's the main thing.
这是主要的事情。
Because it's a better school.
因为这是一所更好的学校。
Nikole Hannah-Jones But you, do you think it's possible your foundation wasn't as terrible as you think it is?
Nikole Hannah-Jones 但是你，你认为你的基础可能没有你想象的那么糟糕吗？
No. Nikole Hannah-Jones So you think you came in like a blank slate at [BLEEP] and now have learned everything there?
不。Nikole Hannah-Jones 所以你认为你刚进入[BLEEP]时就像一张白纸，现在已经学到了那里的一切？
No, but-- Nikole Hannah-Jones You have been able to have the same academic success as your classmates.
不，但是—— Nikole Hannah-Jones 您已经能够与您的同学取得同样的学业成功。
Yeah, to get through it because-- well, not even though.
是的，为了度过难关，因为——好吧，尽管如此。
Last year, when I had my grade come out, I remember crying because everyone else's score was so good.
去年，当我的成绩出来时，我记得哭了，因为其他人的成绩都很好。
And I was just like, how is this so easy for everyone else but me?
我当时就想，除了我以外，其他人怎么这么容易呢？
So no, I don't think that I got through it.
所以不，我不认为我已经度过了难关。
I think I just tried my hardest.
我想我只是尽力了。
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, I think it's fair to say you did not receive the top quality middle school education.
我的意思是，我认为可以公平地说你没有接受过高质量的中学教育。
--even basic fractions.
——甚至是基本分数。
I mean, I was never taught that.
我的意思是，我从来没有被教导过。
I had to relearn everything from my tutor.
我必须向导师重新学习一切。
That's fair.
这很公平。
Najya Hannah-Jones You can't save everyone who doesn't want to be saved.
Najya Hannah-Jones 你无法拯救所有不想被拯救的人。
I'm not saying that.
我不是这么说的。
I wanted better.
我想要更好。
All the kids in my school that wanted better wanted better.
我学校里所有想要更好的孩子都想要更好。
There's no benefit that came out of you putting me in those schools.
你把我送进那些学校没有任何好处。
There's no benefit at all.
根本没有任何好处。
Could you tell me a benefit?
能告诉我一个好处吗？
I think that's a great question.
我认为这是一个很好的问题。
I do think it was a benefit of us being in those schools.
我确实认为这是我们在这些学校就读的好处。
We brought resources.
我们带来了资源。
If you remember--
如果你还记得——
Nikole runs through a bunch of examples-- your dad organizing parents at the school, intervening when there were issues with teachers, making sure kids who couldn't afford field trips would still get those opportunities.
尼科尔举了很多例子——你的父亲在学校组织家长，在老师出现问题时进行干预，确保无力承担实地考察费用的孩子仍然可以获得这些机会。
The principal creating a recognition breakfast for kids who made the honor roll wouldn't have happened if you weren't in the school.
如果你不在学校，校长就不会为光荣榜的孩子们准备一份表彰早餐。
Nikole goes big and specific.
尼科尔（Nikole）的目标宏大而具体。
The benefits of kids having friends from different backgrounds, our moral obligations to one another.
孩子们拥有不同背景的朋友的好处，我们对彼此的道德义务。
Najya is not waiting for her to be done.
纳吉亚没有等她完成。
She's jumping in.
她跳进去了。
Opportunities for all kids, like what?
所有孩子都有机会，比如什么？
You made friends with different kinds of people.
你和不同类型的人交了朋友。
Who?
WHO？
Dad being involved had a big impact?
爸爸的参与影响大吗？
How?
如何？
We don't have to actually agree.
我们不必真正同意。
It's OK for us to see this in a different way.
我们可以以不同的方式看待这一点。
But ultimately, you got into your first choice of high school.
但最终，你进入了你的首选高中。
I don't think that, but I don't want to be-- I don't want to-- I didn't want to feel like I didn't know anything because I was set back in other schools.
我不这么认为，但我不想——我不想——我不想因为在其他学校受到挫折而感觉自己什么都不知道。
I didn't want to feel like I was dumb.
我不想感觉自己很愚蠢。
In ninth grade, I did feel like I was dumb.
九年级的时候，我确实觉得自己很笨。
It did feel like I didn't know anything.
确实感觉自己什么都不知道。
It was like, oh my gosh.
就像，天哪。
You're a dumb Black girl in a white school.
你是白人学校里的一个愚蠢的黑人女孩。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Najya Hannah-Jones That's what it made me feel.
Najya Hannah-Jones 这就是我的感受。
Why should I have to suffer with that?
为什么我要受这些苦呢？
Why couldn't you just benefit kids in another way?
为什么不能以其他方式造福孩子呢？
There was other options.
还有其他选择。
I don't think you can change-- I think we have decades of people saying they were going to change a school from the outside, and I don't think-- I just don't think you do.
我不认为你可以改变——我认为我们有几十年的人说他们要从外部改变一所学校，我不认为——我只是不认为你会这样做。
I think New York City is full of people who write checks and people who say, I believe in equality.
我认为纽约市到处都是写支票的人和说“我相信平等”的人。
I mean, what we were trying to do was not just about giving some additional funds to a school.
我的意思是，我们想做的不仅仅是向学校提供一些额外的资金。
We were trying to change the power dynamics.
我们试图改变权力动态。
Nikole says, OK, remember what happened in fourth grade when kids weren't being taught?
尼科尔说，好吧，还记得四年级时孩子们没有受到教育时发生的事情吗？
Do you remember that?
你还记得吗？
That wasn't just happening to you.
这不仅仅发生在你身上。
The only way, though, that we know that's happening is because we're in the class and we're in the school.
然而，我们知道这种情况正在发生的唯一方法是因为我们在课堂上，我们在学校里。
And had we not been in the school, we wouldn't have ever known that that was happening.
如果我们不在学校，我们就不会知道发生了这样的事。
But there aren't.
但没有。
And we've talked about over and over, our lives are the products of people who didn't just say, we think segregation is wrong.
我们已经一遍又一遍地谈论过，我们的生活是那些不只是说我们认为种族隔离是错误的人的产物。
We think injustice is wrong.
我们认为不公正是错误的。
They were willing to put themselves, their families, their children on the line for that.
他们愿意为此冒着自己、家人、孩子的风险。
But even when you knew-- Nikole Hannah-Jones It's not like I never had any doubts about my choice.
但即使你知道—— Nikole Hannah-Jones 我也并非从未对我的选择有过任何怀疑。
I did.
我做到了。
And the only reason I'm OK with my choice now is I'm like, you're fine.
我现在对自己的选择感到满意的唯一原因是，你很好。
I felt this was important.
我觉得这很重要。
I tried to do the right thing.
我尝试做正确的事。
And I think I'm fine because I'm in the school I am now.
我认为我很好，因为我在现在的学校。
I feel like if I picked a different choice that you wanted me to, I don't think I would be fine.
我觉得如果我选择了你想要我做的不同选择，我想我不会没事的。
OK.
好的。
Najya Hannah-Jones And I think this choice was good for me.
Najya Hannah-Jones 我认为这个选择对我来说有好处。
And I do appreciate you for saying that.
我非常感谢你这么说。
Yes.
是的。
Act Five: The Evidence Chana Joffe-Walt They'd done it.
第五幕：证据 Chana Joffe-Walt 他们做到了。
Nikole had committed to letting Najya have her say.
尼科尔承诺让纳吉亚发表意见。
She felt she owed it to her.
她觉得这是她欠她的。
And Nikole was committed to putting all of this out into the world.
Nikole 致力于将这一切公诸于世。
And as a final step in this whole process, she fact checked herself, and she was in for a shock.
作为整个过程的最后一步，她检查了自己，结果她感到震惊。
Let's give this an act, a mini act, a postscript.
让我们给它一个表演，一个小表演，一个后记。
Act Five-- The Evidence.
第五幕——证据。
She was checking her memory on things as she wrote her story for The New York Times Magazine.
当她为《纽约时报》杂志撰写故事时，她正在检查自己的记忆。
And Nikole looked through old emails back and forth with Najya's schools, messages to principals and teachers raising concerns.
尼科尔反复查阅了与纳吉亚学校的旧电子邮件、发给校长和老师的邮件，提出了担忧。
And there's pages of emails.
还有几页电子邮件。
I don't even remember sending that many emails.
我什至不记得发过那么多电子邮件。
And I'm a writer and I'm a journalist, so my emails are very detailed.
我是一名作家和记者，所以我的电子邮件非常详细。
Every time I'm emailing the principal, I'm quoting my daughter.
每次我给校长发电子邮件时，我都会引用我女儿的话。
I'm listing all these details, the issues we were having, not feeling like we were getting the proper response, my worries, my concerns, my, like, Najya came home and said that her teacher was gone again.
我列出了所有这些细节，我们遇到的问题，感觉我们没有得到适当的回应，我的担忧，我的担忧，我的纳吉亚回到家说她的老师又走了。
And this is the fourth time the teacher was gone, and there was no sub.
而这已经是第四次老师不在了，也没有一个替补。
And Najya said she had to go in the kindergarten class, but she's in second grade.
纳吉亚说她必须去幼儿园上课，但她已经上二年级了。
And not just a record of my making complaints, but a record of non-caring-- the principal not responding, the teachers not responding over and over, and over, and over again.
这不仅是我投诉的记录，也是我不关心的记录——校长没有回应，老师没有回应，一遍又一遍，一遍又一遍。
And I'm in Texas that day.
那天我在德克萨斯州。
And I'm getting ready to go give a talk.
我正准备去演讲。
And I'm sitting in the hotel room.
我坐在酒店房间里。
And I'm just reading all of these emails.
我正在阅读所有这些电子邮件。
And it was crushing to read them.
阅读它们令人心碎。
And I was like, damn, you really-- to make this work for yourself, mentally I just forgot.
我当时想，该死的，你真的——为了自己做这件事，在精神上我只是忘记了。
I had just pushed a lot of that out of my memory, I think, to be able to live with the choices we were trying to make.
我想，我刚刚把很多事情从我的记忆中抹去了，以便能够接受我们试图做出的选择。
(TEARFULLY) And I understand my child feeling very betrayed by our choices.
（泪流满面）我理解我的孩子因为我们的选择而感到非常背叛。
This is why my baby is so angry.
这就是为什么我的宝宝如此生气。
Did you tell her any of that?
你有告诉她这些吗？
Nikole Hannah-Jones Well, she calls me.
尼科尔·汉娜-琼斯 嗯，她打电话给我。
She calls me right as I'm sitting there.
当我坐在那里时她就给我打电话。
I'm sitting at my desk, just going through all these emails, and I'm like-- I'm not crying, but I'm teary eyed.
我坐在办公桌前，浏览所有这些电子邮件，我想——我没有哭，但我泪眼汪汪。
I'm just sitting there.
我只是坐在那里。
So she calls me.
所以她打电话给我。
And I pick up.
我接起来。
And I'm trying to make my voice sound normal, but she hears that I'm upset in my voice.
我试图让自己的声音听起来正常，但她听出了我声音中的不安。
And she's like, what's wrong, Mommy?
她说，怎么了，妈妈？
And I'm like, nothing.
我就像，什么都没有。
Everything's good.
一切都很好。
And she's like, what's wrong?
她说，怎么了？
And she asked me that maybe one more time.
她问我也许再问一次。
And then I just told her.
然后我就告诉她了。
I was like, I've been reading the emails from everything that was happening with your schools, and I'm sorry.
我当时想，我一直在阅读你们学校发生的所有事情的电子邮件，我很抱歉。
And I just told her, I don't feel like you got the education you deserved, and I don't feel that I listened to you enough.
我只是告诉她，我觉得你没有得到应有的教育，而且我觉得我没有充分倾听你的意见。
I just said, I'm sorry.
我只是说，对不起。
What did she say?
她说什么？
Nikole Hannah-Jones She was quiet for a second.
尼科尔·汉娜·琼斯 她沉默了一会儿。
And then she told me, I'm kind of glad you're seeing this now because I don't feel like you listened to me.
然后她告诉我，我很高兴你现在看到这个，因为我觉得你没有听我说。
I don't feel like you tried to understand that.
我不觉得你试图理解这一点。
And I just apologized again, and I said, you're right.
我只是再次道歉，我说，你是对的。
The stakes were so high for me personally.
对我个人来说，赌注是如此之高。
I feel like the stakes are so high when it comes to the issue of integration and equality that I couldn't admit to her that, yes, you did bear a cost.
我觉得在融合和平等问题上，赌注是如此之高，以至于我无法向她承认，是的，你确实承担了成本。
And I don't know that we made the right choice.
我不知道我们的选择是否正确。
I don't know what the right choice would be.
我不知道什么是正确的选择。
I was stunned by this turn.
我被这个转折惊呆了。
I have never heard Nikole talk like this.
我从来没有听过尼科尔这样说话。
I've never heard most people, my closest friends, be this truthful with themselves about their choices, especially when it comes to our kids and schools.
我从来没有听说过大多数人，我最亲密的朋友，对自己的选择如此诚实，尤其是在涉及我们的孩子和学校时。
And talking about those choices in public?
并在公共场合谈论这些选择？
Never?
绝不？
Why?
为什么？
So all of us can judge or feel smug, or angry, or vindicated, or however you have felt listening to this?
所以我们所有人都可以做出判断，或者感到自鸣得意，或者愤怒，或者平反，或者不管你听了之后有什么感觉？
It's not like Nikole is the only one out here making a choice.
尼科尔并不是唯一一个做出选择的人。
We all live in the same world she lives in.
我们都生活在她生活的同一个世界里。
We all live with schools that are segregated and unequal.
我们都生活在种族隔离和不平等的学校里。
We all make choices, imperfect, complicated choices.
我们都会做出选择，不完美的、复杂的选择。
Nikole's just the one who's reckoning with hers, deeply and in public.
尼科尔只是一个在公开场合深刻反思自己的人。
And I think the less you talk about a choice, the less you scrutinize it, the easier it is to live with.
我认为你越少谈论选择，越少审视它，就越容易接受它。
Nikole is in a strange, new, and disorienting place these days.
这些天，尼科尔处于一个陌生的、新的、令人迷失方向的地方。
She's a person who's used to making an argument, and now she's not sure what to argue for-- not just because of her experience with Najya, also because of what Nikole's seen in her reporting over the last decade.
她是一个习惯于争论的人，现在她不知道该争论什么——不仅因为她与纳吉亚的经历，还因为尼科尔在过去十年的报道中看到的内容。
For years, Nikole's writing pushed for systemic change.
多年来，尼科尔的著作推动了系统性变革。
In particular, she's argued that we need to integrate public schools racially and economically.
她特别指出，我们需要在种族和经济上整合公立学校。
And in her reporting, she's talked to so many people who put their lives into that fight, who sacrificed, made real, life-changing sacrifices that they hoped would lead to a bigger transformation.
在她的报道中，她与许多将自己的生命投入到这场斗争中的人进行了交谈，他们做出了牺牲，做出了真正的、改变生活的牺牲，他们希望这些牺牲能够带来更大的转变。
And so little has changed.
但变化却很小。
Public schools are unequal and segregated as they were 10 years ago, 30 years ago, 60 years ago.
公立学校就像10年前、30年前、60年前一样不平等和种族隔离。
If you sacrifice to make a change, but change doesn't come, all you're left with is the sacrifice.
如果你做出牺牲来做出改变，但改变并没有到来，那么你剩下的就只有牺牲了。
A lot's happened.
发生了很多事情。
Nikole Hannah-Jones A lot has happened.
尼科尔·汉娜·琼斯 发生了很多事情。
The base of the argument is that what we are doing to Black children is immoral.
争论的基础是我们对黑人儿童所做的事情是不道德的。
And that I have not wavered on, I will not waver on.
我没有动摇过，我也不会动摇。
I want us to understand that we choose this.
我希望我们明白，我们选择了这个。
I don't want us to be absolved by it, not even me.
我不希望我们因此而得到赦免，即使是我也不行。
I want us to come at the end of this story sharing my sense of devastation.
我希望我们在这个故事结束时分享我的毁灭感。
I feel like the culmination of all my work is I'm going to force you to bear witness to what you choose and what I choose.
我觉得我所有工作的顶峰就是我将迫使你见证你的选择和我的选择。
Our program was produced and edited today by Nancy Updike with help from Ira Glass.
我们的节目今天由 Nancy Updike 在 Ira Glass 的帮助下制作和编辑。
The people who put together today's show are Cassie Howley, Adriene Lilly, Seth Lind, Katherine Rae Mondo, Stowe Nelson, Nadia Reiman, Ryan Rumery, Ruby Schwartz, Alissa Shipp, Christopher Swetala, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.
今天节目的制作人包括 Cassie Howley、Adriene Lilly、Seth Lind、Katherine Rae Mondo、Stowe Nelson、Nadia Reiman、Ryan Rumery、Ruby Schwartz、Alissa Shipp、Christopher Swetala、Julie Whitaker 和 Diane Wu。
Our managing editor is Sarah Abdurrahman.
我们的总编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜拉赫曼 (Sarah Abdurrahman)。
Our senior editor, David Kestenbaum.
我们的高级编辑 David Kestenbaum。
Our executive editor, Emanuele Berry.
我们的执行编辑埃马努埃莱·贝里。
Nikole's article is called "In Fighting for Every Black Child, Did I Betray My Own?" And you can find it on The New York Times website.
尼科尔的文章名为“在为每个黑人儿童而战时，我背叛了自己的孩子吗？”您可以在《纽约时报》网站上找到它。
It was edited by Ilena Silverman.
由伊琳娜·西尔弗曼 (Ilena Silverman) 编辑。
Special thanks today to Rachel Lissy.
今天特别感谢雷切尔·莉西。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org, where you can stream an archive of over 800 episodes for absolutely free.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费地观看超过 800 集的档案。
And there's videos and lists of favorite shows, and tons of other stuff there too.
还有视频和最喜欢的节目列表，以及大量其他内容。
Again, thisamericanlife.org.
再说一次，thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
I'm Chana Joffe-Walt.
我是查娜·乔夫-沃尔特。
Ira Glass will be back next week with more stories of This American Life.
艾拉·格拉斯将于下周回归，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。