389: Frenemies - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #389 | October 1, 2010 389: Frenemies Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 389 集 | 2010 年 10 月 1 日 389：亦敌亦友 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life distributed by Public Radio International.
序言 Ira Glass 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥，由国际公共广播电台发行的《美国生活》。
We had both been dating the same person, and she had been dating him for a while, and then broken it off.
我们都在和同一个人约会，她和他约会了一段时间，然后就分手了。
And then I had met him, and so he and I were dating.
然后我遇见了他，所以他和我开始约会。
And then he started talking about her.
然后他开始谈论她。
Oh, Julie, she's just this fantastic artist, and she lives in a trailer in the woods.
哦，朱莉，她是一位出色的艺术家，她住在树林里的一辆拖车里。
And I go out there and drink wine with her and listen to fabulous music, and we just have deep intellectual conversations, that kind of stuff.
我出去和她一起喝酒，听美妙的音乐，我们只是进行深入的智力对话，诸如此类。
And it turned out that he was seeing both of us at the same time.
结果他同时看到了我们两个。
It took a while to figure that out, though.
不过，我花了一段时间才弄清楚这一点。
And in the meantime, this guy had the sheer nerve to introduce the two women to each other, Erin and Julie.
与此同时，这个家伙有勇气把这两个女人介绍给彼此，艾琳和朱莉。
And they became friends.
他们成了朋友。
And things kind of exploded with the guy and they stayed friends, at first with him, and then after that, with each other, in this emotional purgatory that I think most of us would never put up with after our 20s, which is exactly how old they were.
和这个家伙的关系有点爆炸，他们仍然是朋友，一开始是和他，然后是彼此，在这个情感炼狱中，我认为我们大多数人在 20 多岁之后永远无法忍受，而这正是他们的年龄。
It was just kind of a weird, close friendship because it revolved around us not liking this guy, and that's kind of what it was based on at first.
这是一种奇怪的、亲密的友谊，因为它围绕着我们不喜欢这个人而展开，这就是它最初的基础。
Even though we both knew that we kind of didn't like each other either.
尽管我们都知道我们彼此都不喜欢对方。
Because we both really secretly did like this guy, and wanted him to like us.
因为我们俩都暗自喜欢这个人，也希望他喜欢我们。
And we just resented each other for even being in the picture.
我们甚至因为出现在照片中而互相怨恨。
I don't know.
我不知道。
That was Erin.
那是艾琳。
Here's Julie.
这是朱莉。
Julie I believed that we just happened to have a bad beginning, and that if we had met under different circumstances-- and she said the same thing-- if we'd met under different circumstances, we probably wouldn't have created all that bad history, this like push me, pull you kind of relationship.
朱莉，我相信我们只是碰巧有一个糟糕的开始，如果我们在不同的情况下相遇——她也说了同样的话——如果我们在不同的情况下相遇，我们可能不会创造所有糟糕的历史，就像推我拉你的关系。
And they continued this way, as frenemies, having fun together now and then, but also getting into these huge, horrible fights all the time for four years.
他们继续这样，像亦敌亦友，时不时地一起玩，但四年来也一直陷入这些巨大而可怕的争斗中。
Long after they both stopped talking to the guy.
很久之后他们都不再和那个家伙说话了。
And the real question is, when you're in this kind of situation-- and who among us has not been in this situation where you have some friend, where the thought of hanging out with his friend totally stresses you out.
真正的问题是，当你处于这种情况时——我们当中谁没有经历过这种情况：你有一个朋友，一想到和他的朋友出去玩就会让你感到压力很大。
And you think, are we really friends then?
你想，那我们真的是朋友吗？
The question is, why don't you cut it off?
问题是，为什么不把它砍掉呢？
And it turns out this is a question that science has actually looked into.
事实证明，这是一个科学已经真正研究过的问题。
Science done by a psychologist named Julianne Holt-Lunstad and her colleagues.
一位名叫朱丽安·霍尔特·伦斯塔德（Julianne Holt-Lunstad）的心理学家和她的同事所做的科学研究。
Well, of course, our guiding question was, well if these relationships are potentially detrimental, why would people keep them?
当然，我们的指导性问题是，如果这些关系可能有害，人们为什么还要保留它们？
Julianne Holt-Lunstad has done a number of studies on ambivalent and frustrating friendships.
朱丽安·霍尔特-伦斯塔德对矛盾和令人沮丧的友谊进行了大量研究。
In one of them, she had people rate their friends and their family members.
在其中一篇文章中，她让人们对他们的朋友和家人进行评分。
How supportive they are, how much stress they cause, on and on.
他们提供了多少支持，他们造成了多少压力，等等。
And she found that half, half of our relationships, on average, are with people that we care a lot about, we feel positive towards, and we also have real conflicts and negative feelings about as well.
她发现，平均而言，我们一半的关系是与我们非常关心、我们感到积极的人建立的，但我们也有真正的冲突和消极情绪。
People talk about friends that are tons of fun, but can be really competitive.
人们谈论的朋友很有趣，但也很有竞争力。
A friend that is really great when they're around, but are incredibly unreliable, or can be really insensitive at times.
一个在身边时非常好的朋友，但非常不可靠，或者有时非常麻木不仁。
I recall one person even saying, "I stick around for those few times that she is good to me and is nice.
我记得有人甚至说过：“我坚持了那几次，因为她对我很好，很好。
But most of time it's not good."
但大多数时候情况并不好。”
When Hold-Lunstad and a colleague began their examination of why we don't just break up with these friends, they had a hypothesis.
当霍尔德-伦斯塔德和一位同事开始研究为什么我们不直接与这些朋友分手时，他们提出了一个假设。
They thought, there must be external factors that made ditching these friends really, really hard.
他们认为，一定有外部因素让他们很难离开这些朋友。
Like they're friends with all your other friends, or your kids are close, or you're part of the same church.
就像他们是你所有其他朋友的朋友，或者你的孩子很亲密，或者你们是同一个教会的成员。
Or they're your next door neighbor.
或者他们是你的隔壁邻居。
What are you going to do, move?
你要做什么，搬家？
You basically run in the same social circles, and so it may be very difficult to avoid this person.
你们基本上都在同一个社交圈子里，所以很难避开这个人。
And so you've got these barriers to ending that relationship.
所以你有这些障碍来结束这种关系。
But to their surprise, they found this is not why people stay in these troubling friendships.
但令他们惊讶的是，他们发现这并不是人们维持这些令人不安的友谊的原因。
People stay, they found, for reasons that they impose on themselves.
他们发现，人们之所以留下来，是因为他们强加给自己的原因。
Either they tell themselves things like, I'm not the kind of person who just gives up on somebody.
要么他们告诉自己，我不是那种轻易放弃某人的人。
I stay friends.
我还是朋友。
Or they tell themselves that the good times outweigh the bad.
或者他们告诉自己，好时光多于坏时光。
Like with these two women, Erin and Julie.
就像这两个女人，艾琳和朱莉。
They stayed frenemies for years because they got something from it.
他们多年来一直是亦敌亦友的关系，因为他们从中得到了一些东西。
They got caught up in this competitive thing where Julie would give Erin advice, and Erin would like the advice, or not like the advice.
他们陷入了这种竞争之中，朱莉会给艾琳提供建议，而艾琳会喜欢这个建议，或者不喜欢这个建议。
And somehow neither of them could let that go.
不知怎的，他们谁都不能放过这一点。
I guess we are both attracted to defending our own honor.
我想我们都热衷于捍卫自己的荣誉。
And we liked to write, so a lot of the time we would write long emails about-- no, no, no. This is why you suck.
我们喜欢写作，所以很多时候我们会写长篇电子邮件，内容是——不，不，不。这就是你烂的原因。
This is not actually what happened and let me point out to you this.
这实际上并不是发生的事情，让我向你指出这一点。
So her logic in the emails just seemed so flawed, I just wanted to like, no, no. No, that's not how things went down.
所以她在电子邮件中的逻辑看起来很有缺陷，我只是想说，不，不。不，事情不是这样发展的。
I just wanted to defend myself to her.
我只是想在她面前保护自己。
And then, I guess we both thought that the other person should be the one to cut it off.
然后，我想我们都认为另一个人应该是切断它的人。
I don't know why I feel like it would be horrible for me to say, OK, we're done with this.
我不知道为什么我觉得如果我说“好吧，我们结束了”会很可怕。
And now let's kind of go on our separate ways.
现在让我们各走各的路吧。
In another study, Julianne Holt-Lunstad and her colleagues wired people up to take their blood pressure every time they interacted with another person for three full days and found that friends that we feel ambivalently about raise our blood pressure more, cause more anxiety and stress than people that we actively dislike.
在另一项研究中，Julianne Holt-Lunstad 和她的同事让人们在三天内每次与另一个人互动时都测量血压，结果发现，我们感到矛盾的朋友比我们非常不喜欢的人更容易导致血压升高。
In other words, frenemies are bad for our health.
换句话说，亦敌亦友对我们的健康有害。
And they're all around us, 50% of our relationships.
他们就在我们身边，占我们关系的 50%。
And today on our radio show, we examine them in all of their nefarious forms.
今天，在我们的广播节目中，我们审视了他们所有的邪恶形式。
The ones that we can only blame ourselves for having, the ones who simply cause agita without meaning any harm against us, and of course, the very few who actively scheme against us like characters on a TV soap opera.
那些我们只能责备自己的人，那些只是引起骚动而没有任何伤害我们的人，当然还有极少数像电视肥皂剧中的人物一样积极策划反对我们的人。
Smiling to our faces and then quietly going off and doing things that we do not like from friends or anybody else.
当着我们的面微笑，然后悄悄地走开，做一些我们不喜欢朋友或其他人做的事情。
We hear all these types today, our show in four acts.
今天我们听到了所有这些类型，我们的表演分为四幕。
Act one, Chasing Amy.
第一幕，追逐艾米。
What do you do when you're not sure but you think maybe your sister is starting to act like your frenemy?
当你不确定但你认为你的妹妹可能开始表现得像你的亦敌亦友时，你会怎么做？
Act two, I am Here to Make Frenemies.
第二幕，我是来交友的。
In which we head into what we believe might be the world capital of frenemy behavior.
在其中，我们走进了我们认为可能是亦敌亦友行为的世界之都的地方。
Act three, Speak Now or Forever Hold Your Peace.
第三幕，立即发言，否则永远保持沉默。
David Rakoff in that act, and an impossible wedding toast, in rhyme.
大卫·拉考夫（David Rakoff）在那一幕中，还有一场不可能的婚礼祝酒，押韵。
Act four, The Case of the Long Lost Frenemy, in which a childhood friend mysteriously shows up after years for reasons that are revealed over time.
第四幕，《失散已久的友敌案》，一位儿时好友在多年后神秘出现，其原因随着时间的推移逐渐揭晓。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
"Act one, Chasing Amy." Family members can so easily be frenemies because you're stuck with them and you love them, and they sometimes do things that make you feel very weird.
“第一幕，追逐艾米。”家庭成员很容易成为亦敌亦友的人，因为你和他们在一起并且你爱他们，而他们有时会做一些让你感觉很奇怪的事情。
Jeanne Darst tells this story about herself and her sister.
珍妮·达斯特讲述了这个关于她自己和她妹妹的故事。
Amy's estrangement went undiagnosed for some time.
艾米的疏远有一段时间没有得到诊断。
Because in our family, someone retreating in anger is hardly a bacon cooler.
因为在我们家里，愤怒而退缩的人很难算是一个冷酷无情的人。
People are always suddenly putting on their coats and requesting a ride to the Metro North Station, and my therapist said no contact for six months, and you can't come if you're drinking, and I won't come if he's there.
人们总是突然穿上外套要求搭车去地铁北站，我的治疗师说六个月没有联系，如果你喝酒了就不能来，如果他在那里我也不会来。
And I'll come, but don't sit me next to her.
我会来，但不要让我坐在她旁边。
I always picture a sweaty John Madden frantically scribbling our Thanksgiving plays on a blackboard.
我总是想象出汗流浃背的约翰·马登在黑板上疯狂地写下我们的感恩节戏剧。
So it took some time to notice, but maybe estrangement is by definition a matter of time.
所以花了一些时间才注意到，但也许疏远从定义上来说只是时间问题。
This is how it went.
事情就是这样。
Our white Volvo sulks through the traffic up the West Side Highway.
我们的白色沃尔沃在西区高速公路的车流中闷闷不乐。
My brother-in-law, Henry, is driving and I'm in the back seat behind him.
我的姐夫亨利正在开车，我坐在他后面的后座上。
His wife, my sister Liz, is in the passenger seat, and behind her is her four-year-old, Luisa, in her car seat.
他的妻子，我的妹妹莉兹，坐在乘客座位上，她身后是她四岁的孩子路易莎，坐在汽车座椅上。
We're like two car fractions.
我们就像两辆车的碎片。
Henry and Liz being the numerators, Luisa and I, the denominators.
亨利和莉兹是分子，路易莎和我是分母。
We're on our way to Jersey City to meet our sister, Amy's, new husband, a Muslim from Tunis she met in an Arab chat room, moved in with, and married at the City Hall in Philadelphia in just under six weeks, [?
我们正在去泽西城的路上去见我们的妹妹艾米的新丈夫，她是一位来自突尼斯的穆斯林，她在阿拉伯聊天室里认识了她，在不到六周的时间里，她在费城市政厅与之同居并结婚，[？
Waleed.
瓦利德。
?] My mother called me as soon as she got the news.
？] 我妈妈一得知这个消息就给我打电话。
Apparently they met in a chat room, she tells me, whatever the hell that means.
她告诉我，显然他们是在聊天室认识的，不管那是什么意思。
And he cooked her a lot of Tunisian dishes, and then he whisked her off and married her.
他给她做了很多突尼斯菜肴，然后他就把她带走并娶了她。
Wow.
哇。
I wouldn't mind seeing what he's putting in those dishes, I say.
我不介意看看他在那些盘子里放了什么，我说。
Oh, I think a lot of coriander.
哦，我想很多香菜。
Probably cumin, garlic.
可能是孜然，大蒜。
That would be my guess.
这是我的猜测。
Now let me ask you something, Jeanne.
现在让我问你一件事，珍妮。
Don't you think it's just a little peculiar getting married so fast?
你不觉得这么快结婚有点奇怪吗？
We haven't even met this [?
我们甚至没有遇到过这个[?
Waleed ?] character.
瓦利德？]角色。
Well, this is the same woman who went on a second date to Chile I point out.
好吧，我指出，这就是第二次去智利约会的那个女人。
That's right.
这是正确的。
What was she thinking?
她在想什么？
She could have been murdered.
她可能被谋杀了。
The guy went to Dalton, Mom.
妈妈，那家伙去了道尔顿。
That doesn't mean anything, what about the preppy murderer?
这没什么意义，那预科生凶手呢？
Oh, for God's sakes, Jeanne.
哦，看在上帝的份上，珍妮。
Be serious.
认真点。
Now, did you ever see the movie Green Card with Andie MacDowell?
现在，你看过安迪·麦克道威尔主演的电影《绿卡》吗？
All right, well she plays an American woman who meets a Frenchman.
好吧，她扮演一个遇到法国男人的美国女人。
Mom, I know what a green card situation is.
妈妈，我知道什么是绿卡情况。
Well, all right, [?
好吧，好吧，[?
dolly.
多莉。
?] I didn't think you knew what these people do.
？] 我以为你不知道这些人是做什么的。
I'm highly upset over here.
我在这里非常不安。
My mother has a few stock phrases.
我妈妈有几句俗语。
Highly upset is a big one.
高度不安是一件大事。
I don't know that she's ever been regular upset.
我不知道她是否经常心烦意乱。
She prefers to head straight to highly.
她更喜欢径直走向高处。
I'm not so much supportive of Amy's hasty act as I am invigorated.
与其说我支持艾米的仓促举动，倒不如说我精神振奋。
Just the idea of having dinner with that kind of recklessness has perked my spirits up.
光是想到要如此鲁莽地吃晚饭，我的精神就振奋起来。
What is with this traffic, Henry says.
亨利说，这种流量是怎么回事？
Liz has thrown my big, black scarf over Luisa's head to block the sunlight so she can nap.
莉兹把我的黑色大围巾盖在了路易莎的头上，遮挡阳光，这样她就可以小睡了。
We giggle when we see the effect the scarf creates, which is that of a burqa.
当我们看到围巾所产生的效果（罩袍的效果）时，我们会咯咯地笑。
Cover her ankles, Liz jokes.
莉兹开玩笑说，盖住脚踝。
This day doesn't feel unfamiliar.
这一天并不觉得陌生。
Beginning with Amy's first boyfriend, my parents were "highly upset." J.J.
从艾米的第一个男朋友开始，我的父母“非常沮丧”。 J.J.
was a mechanic from Tuckahoe, the next town over from ours.
是一位来自塔卡霍（Tuckahoe）的机械师，塔卡霍是我们的下一个城镇。
He listened to Van Halen, didn't plan on going to college, and reeked of Polo cologne.
他听范·海伦的话，不打算上大学，浑身散发着马球古龙水的味道。
I'd be smoking, drinking some stolen warm beers up in my room, chatting on the phone, when a waft of that signature Ralph Lauren scent would hit me.
我会在房间里抽烟、喝一些偷来的热啤酒、打电话聊天，这时一股拉夫·劳伦标志性的香味就会扑面而来。
Soon enough, our older sister, Liz, would fly in and shut my door.
很快，我们的姐姐莉兹就会飞进来并关上我的门。
Sheesh, the front hall smells like the ground floor of Bloomingdale's.
天啊，前厅闻起来就像布鲁明戴尔百货公司一楼的味道。
God.
上帝。
My parents had strategy sessions about J.J., held late at night in their bedroom after they'd both had quite a bit of red wine with dinner and a couple scotches.
我的父母在晚餐时喝了相当多的红酒和几杯苏格兰威士忌后，深夜在卧室里举行了关于 J.J. 的策略会议。
I'd be coming up from the kitchen and they'd trap me for a night cap interrogation.
我从厨房出来，他们就会把我困住，进行睡帽审讯。
Oh, Jeanne, Doris would yell from her bed throne.
哦，珍妮，多丽丝会在她的床上大喊。
Come here for a minute my mother would say, casually, as if she were not asking you to make a quick betrayal of your sister before hitting the sack.
到这里来一会儿，我母亲会随意地说，就好像她不是要求你在解雇之前迅速背叛你的妹妹一样。
We want to talk to you about this J.J.
我们想和你谈谈这个 J.J.
character, Jeanne [?
角色，珍妮[？
Jo.
乔.
?] Even by his fourth child, my dad was still tinkering with his father persona.
？]即使到了他的第四个孩子，我父亲仍然在修补他父亲的形象。
I sat on the gold satin divan, shut my eyes, and stretched my legs, as if I were merely there to maintain my base tan.
我坐在金色缎面长沙发上，闭上眼睛，伸展双腿，仿佛我只是为了保持晒黑的肤色。
Dammit, Jeanne [?
该死的，珍妮[？
Jo ?], your mother's talking to you.
乔？]，你妈妈在跟你说话。
Well, what's the strict definition of a--
好吧，严格的定义是什么——
Someone who's having sex with Amy, my mother blurted.
一个和艾米发生性关系的人，我母亲脱口而出。
All right, let's all settle down my father said.
好吧，我们都安定下来吧，父亲说道。
We're way off track here.
我们这里已经偏离轨道了。
Now how well do you know J.J.?
现在你对 J.J. 有多了解？
I don't.
我不知道。
He seems a bit wayward.
他看起来有点任性。
Is that your impression?
这是你的印象吗？
I think Amy's smoking pot, my mother added.
“我觉得艾米在吸大麻，”我妈妈补充道。
You can smell it a mile away.
一英里之外你都能闻到它的味道。
My father paused for a moment.
我父亲停顿了一会儿。
Maybe that's why he wears so much cologne.
也许这就是他喷那么多古龙水的原因。
Steve, please, my mother yelled, putting out one of the two lit cigarettes she had going in the ashtray.
史蒂夫，求你了，我母亲喊道，同时熄灭了烟灰缸里两根点燃的香烟中的一根。
Can I go to bed?
我可以去睡觉了吗？
I asked.
我问。
Yes, yes.
是的，是的。
We're not going to solve anything tonight, my dad said.
今晚我们不会解决任何问题，我爸爸说。
You just couldn't outlast these two, long distance meddlers.
你就是无法比这两个远距离的爱管闲事的人活得长久。
They could go on forever.
他们可以永远继续下去。
Amy and I were the close ones when we were younger.
艾米和我年轻时是亲密的人。
As little kids, when we had no money to go to the movies, we'd get a basket and go up to fancy houses on Egypt Lane, cutting people's flowers out front, putting them in the basket, and then ringing their doorbell and selling them their own flowers.
当我们还是小孩子的时候，当我们没钱去看电影的时候，我们就会提着一个篮子，去埃及巷的豪华房子里，把人们的花从门前剪下来，放进篮子里，然后按响他们的门铃，把自己的花卖给他们。
Those people thought we were frigging adorable, and we made some decent money.
那些人认为我们太可爱了，而且我们赚了一些可观的钱。
We drank, we smoked around the house, we snickered at curfews and poo-pooed the law.
我们喝酒，在屋子里抽烟，嘲笑宵禁，嘲笑法律。
Amy took my road test for me when I was 16.
我 16 岁时，艾米为我参加了路考。
But at some point, after college I guess, Amy started to seem less rebellious and fun, and more bitter and suspicious.
但在某个时候，我想，大学毕业后，艾米开始显得不那么叛逆和有趣，而变得更加痛苦和多疑。
I remember more than once being on the subway with her, and her glaring at me to keep it down when I'd been talking about, say, whether we should get pizza or burritos for dinner.
我记得不止一次和她一起坐地铁，当我在谈论我们晚餐应该吃披萨还是墨西哥卷饼时，她怒视着我，让我小声点。
Jesus, Jeanne, keep it down, she'd whisper.
天哪，珍妮，小声点，她低声说道。
She never cleaned.
她从来不打扫卫生。
When I'd visit her place and see the dishes piled up, her sheets sort of half on, half off, I was often tempted to ask, what band is living here with you?
当我去她家看到堆满的盘子，她的床单半开半开时，我经常想问，哪个乐队和你住在这里？
When the shower broke in her apartment, instead of having it fixed she told me, I just shower at the gym now.
当她公寓的淋浴坏了时，她没有去修理，而是告诉我，我现在只是在健身房洗澡。
Which was confusing because she didn't work out.
这很令人困惑，因为她没有锻炼。
She seemed to still see the world from a teenager's perspective.
她似乎仍然以青少年的视角看世界。
If you commented on her Don King hair she might snap, everyone in this family is so totally judgmental and superficial.
如果你评论她的唐·金头发，她可能会折断，这个家庭中的每个人都是如此完全的评判和肤浅。
And she was probably right, but by 30 it was a slightly stale pose to strike.
她可能是对的，但到了 30 岁，这个姿势就有点陈旧了。
Her relationships, romantic or otherwise, tended to end badly, and it was invariably the other person's fault.
她的人际关系，无论是浪漫的还是其他的，往往都会以糟糕的方式结束，而这总是对方的错。
One day when I asked how Mark, her filmmaker boyfriend at NYU, was, she said matter-of-factly-- past tense-- he claims I tried to strangle him at the Lion's Head last weekend and now he won't return my calls.
有一天，当我问她在纽约大学的电影制片人男友马克怎么样时，她实事求是地说——过去时——他声称上周末我试图在狮头掐死他，现在他不会回我的电话了。
Total psycho.
完全是精神病。
She disliked everyone more and more.
她越来越不喜欢所有人了。
And at some point, that included me.
在某些时候，这也包括我。
One night I was drunk and flirting with the man who was about to take her to Chile for their second date.
一天晚上，我喝醉了，正在和一个准备带她去智利第二次约会的男人调情。
And I said to him, you should take me to Chile, I'm a lot more fun.
我对他说，你应该带我去智利，我更有趣。
Truly jerky thing to say, and I apologized more than once, but apologies have never impressed Amy.
说起来确实很生涩，我不止一次道歉，但道歉从来没有打动艾米。
I was banished to some otherness, a place where suburban a-holes and parents who didn't approve of blue collar boyfriends went.
我被放逐到了另一个地方，一个郊区混蛋和不赞成蓝领男朋友的父母去的地方。
And there seemed to be no getting back in.
而且似乎已经回不去了。
As we drive around looking for Amy's new house, I realize I do know something about [?
当我们开车四处寻找艾米的新房子时，我意识到我确实了解一些关于[？
Waleed.
瓦利德。
?] Amy called me a couple weeks after they met and said she was seeing this new guy and that he had a really big-- you know.
？] 他们见面几周后，艾米给我打电话，说她正在和这个新朋友约会，而且他有一个非常大的——你知道的。
But when the phone call came on Easter Sunday that Amy had run off and married some Muslim from Tunis no one had met, I didn't think, everybody stay calm, I talked to Amy about this guy two weeks ago, he's got a big penis, would quiet my parents' concerns.
但当复活节周日接到电话说艾米跑了，嫁给了一个来自突尼斯的穆斯林，没人认识时，我没想到，大家保持冷静，两周前我和艾米谈论过这个人，他有一个大阴茎，会平息我父母的担忧。
After she first got married, I called Amy and asked how things were going.
她刚结婚后，我打电话给艾米，询问事情进展如何。
Fantastic.
极好的。
Marriage is great.
婚姻是伟大的。
I highly recommend it, Jeanne.
我强烈推荐它，珍妮。
Amy, the happily married woman.
艾米，婚姻幸福的女人。
I like it.
我喜欢它。
It seems like magic.
这看起来就像魔法一样。
You've got to be kidding me.
你一定是在跟我开玩笑吧。
3 o'clock, she yells, I'm at the farmer's market waiting for [?
3点了，她喊道，我在农贸市场等[？
Waleed.
瓦利德。
?] We're supposed to be buying vegetables for a special Tunisian curry, and I've been here for an hour.
？]我们应该买蔬菜来做突尼斯特色咖喱，而我已经在这里呆了一个小时了。
An hour.
一个小时。
Do you believe this guy?
你相信这个人吗？
I swear to God, some people have no regard for other people.
我向上帝发誓，有些人不尊重其他人。
You ever notice that, she explodes.
你有没有注意到，她爆炸了。
Also, he's obsessed with cleanliness.
此外，他还非常注重清洁。
He said my apartment on Sackett Street wasn't clean.
他说我在萨克特街的公寓不干净。
Longer pause.
停顿时间较长。
OK, scratch everything I just said.
好吧，把我刚才说的一切都划掉。
Things are fantastic.
事情太棒了。
I love being married.
我喜欢结婚。
[?
[？
Waleed ?] and I just have some, you know, cultural differences.
瓦利德？]和我只是有一些，你知道，文化差异。
He's very, umm, driven.
他非常，嗯，有动力。
He's always following up with things.
他总是在跟进事情。
Like if I say I'm going to go get my driver's license renewed, he'll ask me later how the DMV was.
就像如果我说我要去更新我的驾驶执照，他稍后会问我 DMV 怎么样。
You know, he assumes if you say you're going to do something, you're actually going to do it.
你知道，他认为如果你说你要做某事，你实际上就会去做。
He can be very funny, Jeanne.
他可以很有趣，珍妮。
That's funny, I say.
我说，这很有趣。
How can I stop my sister from blowing this, I think, without actually saying the words, don't blow this Amy?
我怎样才能阻止我妹妹吹这个，我想，没有实际说的话，不要吹这个艾米？
And she doesn't.
但她没有。
Instead we've been invited to their new home for dinner.
相反，我们被邀请到他们的新家吃晚饭。
We find her building and ring the buzzer.
我们找到了她所在的大楼并按响了门铃。
Amy comes down to the door in a floral apron.
艾米穿着花围裙来到门口。
They have curtains.
他们有窗帘。
Her new apartment is smoke free.
她的新公寓禁止吸烟。
Lots of sunlight, and clean bedding on the bed, which boasts a headboard and pillows of all different sizes.
阳光充足，床上用品干净，配有床头板和各种不同尺寸的枕头。
Her hair is combed.
她的头发梳得很整齐。
Apparently, they don't drink.
显然，他们不喝酒。
Her bathroom seems to say, hello, I'm here for you.
她的浴室似乎在说，你好，我在这里等你。
Look, my toilet flushes, and there's plenty of toilet paper.
你看，我的马桶冲水了，卫生纸还有很多。
Should your scarf accidentally fall on the floor, there's no need to throw it away when you get home.
如果您的围巾不小心掉落在地板上，回家后无需将其扔掉。
Simply pick it up and put it back around your neck.
只需拿起它并将其放回脖子上即可。
Back in the living room, you're greeted by smells of-- is that salmon in the oven?
回到客厅，你会闻到一股香味——那是烤箱里的鲑鱼吗？
Excuse me?
打扰一下？
Oh, Tunisian salmon, with roasted vegetables, fresh tuna croquettes, chopped Tunisian salad.
哦，突尼斯三文鱼，配烤蔬菜，新鲜金枪鱼炸丸子，切碎的突尼斯沙拉。
You're then greeted by the chef, your new brother-in-law.
然后，你的新姐夫、厨师就会迎接你。
He's slightly petite, very handsome with black hair and olive skin, and a smile that makes you hungry.
他身材略显娇小，黑发橄榄色的皮肤非常帅气，笑容让人垂涎欲滴。
He's [?
他是[?
Waleed.
瓦利德。
?] And you, like everyone else, instantly like him.
？] 而你，像其他人一样，立刻喜欢上了他。
Our oldest sister, Caroline, who drove in from Connecticut with her husband, Jim, and their two boys, talks of her son's summer plans.
我们的大姐卡罗琳和她的丈夫吉姆以及两个儿子从康涅狄格州开车过来，谈论着她儿子的暑期计划。
He's taking a course at the local nature preserve called CSI: New Canaan.
他正在当地自然保护区参加一门名为《犯罪现场调查：新迦南》的课程。
Isn't that cute?
那不是很可爱吗？
They investigate crimes in nature.
他们调查自然界的犯罪行为。
Jeanne Darst.
珍妮·达斯特。
She's just finishing up her first book, Fiction Ruined My Family.
她刚刚完成她的第一本书《小说毁了我的家庭》。
It has no publisher yet.
目前还没有出版商。
[MUSIC- "MY SISTER" BY JULIANNA HATFIELD]
[音乐-朱丽安娜·哈特菲尔德的《我的妹妹》]
And now we head into the natural habitat of frenemies.
现在我们进入亦敌亦友的自然栖息地。
The ecosystem where they are perfectly adapted, where they thrive, and are rewarded as in no other place.
他们完美适应、茁壮成长并获得其他地方无法比拟的回报的生态系统。
I'm referring to the world of television.
我指的是电视世界。
Especially those shows where frenemies are just built into the basic DNA of the drama that unfolds.
尤其是那些将亦敌亦友融入到所展开的戏剧的基本DNA中的节目。
And let's get past the whole Gossip Girl , The Hills , soap opera type program and go straight to reality television.
让我们跳过整个《绯闻女孩》、《山丘》等肥皂剧类型的节目，直接进入电视真人秀节目。
Rich Juzwiak is a full-time blogger for VH1.
Rich Juzwiak 是 VH1 的全职博主。
And in his spare time, if that weren't enough, he has his own personal pop culture blog, which means that his days and nights are filled with watching, dissecting, and interviewing the people on reality TV.
在业余时间，如果这还不够，他还有自己的个人流行文化博客，这意味着他的日日夜夜都充满了观看、剖析和采访真人秀节目中的人们。
So he has given it a lot of thought.
所以他也考虑了很多。
And last year he noticed something about the frenemy friendships that happen on reality TV.
去年，他注意到真人秀节目中出现的亦敌亦友的关系。
Reality TV finds its charm in repetition.
电视真人秀在重复中发现了它的魅力。
Especially the shows where people compete.
尤其是人们竞争的节目。
It's like sports.
这就像体育运动。
The game stays the same, and the fun is watching how different people play.
游戏保持不变，有趣的是观看不同的人如何玩。
And the same phrases pop up, whether it's chefs, models, or Bret Michael's groupies.
无论是厨师、模特还是布雷特·迈克尔的追星族，都会出现同样的短语。
Thrown under the bus.
被扔到公共汽车下面。
Not here for the right reasons.
出于正确的原因不在这里。
We could leave at any time.
我们可以随时离开。
I want it the most.
我最想要它。
This isn't the last you've heard of me.
这不是你最后一次听说我。
This is not a game.
这不是游戏。
We're in an alliance.
我们是联盟。
You broke our alliance.
你破坏了我们的联盟。
Now I need a new alliance.
现在我需要一个新的联盟。
But there is one oft repeated phrase that stands out above the rest, a battle cry that defines the philosophy underpinning all of competition reality TV.
但有一个经常被重复的短语比其他短语脱颖而出，这是一种战斗口号，它定义了所有竞争真人秀电视节目的基本理念。
I'm not here to make friends.
我来这里不是为了交朋友的。
Woman 2 I'm not here to make friends.
女人2 我不是来交朋友的。
I'm not here to make friends.
我来这里不是为了交朋友的。
Woman 4 I'm not here to make friends.
女人4 我不是来交朋友的。
I'm not here to make friends.
我来这里不是为了交朋友的。
Woman 5 I mean, I don't want to be a cliche, but I'm not here to make friends.
女人5 我的意思是，我不想成为陈词滥调，但我不是来交朋友的。
Those are clips from, I Know My Kid's a Star , Forever Eden , The Bachelor , Hell's Kitchen , The Pickup Artist, and Top Chef .
这些片段来自《我知道我的孩子是明星》、《永远的伊甸园》、《单身汉》、《地狱厨房》、《把妹达人》和《顶级厨师》。
I made this last year and posted it on Youtube, a super-cut of every iteration of, "I'm not here to make friends," that I could dig up.
我去年做了这个，并将其发布在 Youtube 上，这是每次迭代的超级剪辑，“我不是来这里交朋友的”，我可以挖掘。
55 clips, 3 minutes and 20 seconds of self-centered goodness.
55 个剪辑，3 分 20 秒，以自我为中心的善良。
You guys are not my friends.
你们不是我的朋友。
I'm not here to make friends with you.
我来这里不是为了和你交朋友。
I'm not here to make friends.
我来这里不是为了交朋友的。
Rich Juzwiak When I'm watching an episode where this phrase pops up, my response is always, now it's on.
Rich Juzwiak 当我观看出现这句话的剧集时，我的反应总是，现在开始了。
Now it's a reality show, a place where an aggressive declaration of incivility is not just acceptable, it's inevitable.
现在，这是一档真人秀，在这里，咄咄逼人的不文明行为不仅可以接受，而且是不可避免的。
I'm not here to make friends.
我来这里不是为了交朋友的。
Rich Juzwiak And what makes, "I'm not here to make friends" quintessential reality TV is that it's impossible to imagine ever saying it in real life.
Rich Juzwiak “我来这里不是为了交朋友”之所以成为真人秀节目的精髓，是因为我们无法想象在现实生活中会说这句话。
If you're in a situation where you actually don't want to make friends, sitting for hours next to a stranger on a plane, joining a pickup game of basketball, what would you gain by announcing to everyone--
如果你真的不想交朋友，在飞机上和一个陌生人坐在一起几个小时，参加一场篮球比赛，向每个人宣布你会得到什么——
I'm not here to make friends with you guys.
我不是来和你们交朋友的。
I could care less.
我可以不在乎。
As far as I can determine, I'm not here to make friends was first said back in the pleistocene era of reality TV, the very first season of Survivor by runner-up Kelly Wiglesworth.
据我所知，“我不是来交朋友的”这句话最早出现在电视真人秀的更新世时代，即《幸存者》的第一季，由亚军凯莉·威格尔斯沃思（Kelly Wiglesworth）提出。
I keep telling myself, oh, I have enough friends.
我不断告诉自己，哦，我有足够的朋友。
I didn't come here to make friends.
我来这里不是为了交朋友的。
You know, da, da, da.
你知道，达，达，达。
And the truth is, I like these people.
事实是，我喜欢这些人。
Note that, "I'm not here to make friends" like reality TV itself, was in its infancy back then-- wistful, innocent, sweet even.
请注意，“我来这里不是为了交朋友”，就像真人秀本身一样，当时还处于起步阶段——渴望、天真、甚至甜蜜。
The fangs came out and the phrase settled into dogma thanks to The Apprentice's Omarosa Manigault-Stallworth, the godmother of reality supervillains, who justified her ruthlessness with the simple brush off.
多亏了《学徒》中现实超级恶棍的教母奥玛罗莎·马尼戈-斯托沃斯，她的獠牙才露出来，这句话也成为了教条，她用简单的拒绝来为自己的无情辩护。
I didn't come here to make friends.
我来这里不是为了交朋友的。
I said that from day one.
我从第一天就这么说。
It snowballed from there, not here to make friends.
事情从那里滚雪球般越滚越大，而不是来这里交朋友。
And let's call it NHTMF for short, became the calling card of what's often the most important character on the show: the one we love to hate.
让我们简称为 NHTMF，它成为了剧中最重要的角色的名片：我们又爱又恨的角色。
The catalyst for the heaping portion of unpleasantness we're about to enjoy.
我们即将享受到的不愉快的事情的催化剂。
And enjoy it we do.
并享受我们所做的。
It's particularly funny when the cuddlier types on reality shows are taken to task by the not here to make frienders.
当真人秀中那些可爱的人被不在这里交朋友的人责备时，这尤其有趣。
As though politeness is what's truly offensive in this reality world.
就好像在这个现实世界中，礼貌才是真正令人反感的东西。
This happened during one season of The Bachelor when one woman spat out with disgust to another contestant--
这发生在《单身汉》的一季中，一名女子厌恶地向另一名参赛者吐口水——
Are you here to make friends?
你来这里是为了交朋友吗？
Because I'm not here to make friends?
因为我不是来交朋友的？
No, I'm not here to make friends.
不，我不是来交朋友的。
I'm not saying that.
我不是这么说的。
Can you hear how eager the woman she's talking to is to make clear that she is definitely not here to make friends either?
你能听出正在和她说话的女人有多急切地想表明她也绝对不是来这里交朋友的吗？
As Jade Cole colorfully reminded us on America's Next Top Model --
正如杰德·科尔 (Jade Cole) 在《全美超模新秀大赛》中生动地提醒我们的那样——
This is a competition.
这是一场比赛。
This is not America's Next Top Best Friend.
这不是美国的下一个最好的朋友。
This is Flavor of Love, not Flavor of Friendship.
这是爱情的味道，不是友谊的味道。
There are no friends on reality TV, only frenemies you haven't discovered yet.
真人秀节目中没有朋友，只有你尚未发现的亦敌亦友。
Girl, no. I'm not here to be friends, girl.
女孩，不。我不是来这里交朋友的，女孩。
NHTMF works so well as a plot point, one contestant I know told a journalist she was coached by the show's producers to say it.
《NHTMF》作为情节点的效果非常好，我认识的一位参赛者告诉记者，她是在节目制片人的指导下才这么说的。
But plenty of contestants just pull it out on their own.
但很多参赛者只是靠自己的努力取得了成绩。
It's as though the savvier ones are saying, if I'm going to be spun or edited to look bad anyway, I'm going to take control of this.
就好像那些精明的人在说，如果我无论如何都会被扭曲或编辑得看起来很糟糕，我就会控制这一切。
Because--
因为——
I'm not here to make friends, I'm here to win.
我来这里不是为了交朋友，我是为了赢。
I'm not here to make friends, I'm here to win.
我来这里不是为了交朋友，我是为了赢。
I didn't come on the show to make friends, I came on to win.
我上节目不是为了交朋友，我是为了赢。
The thing is, they don't.
问题是，他们不这样做。
Most of the people who say this phrase don't go on to win their respective shows.
大多数说这句话的人并没有继续赢得各自的表演。
The winner is usually the person who flies under the radar, or whose victory makes the most uplifting story arc.
获胜者通常是那些在雷达下飞行的人，或者他们的胜利构成最令人振奋的故事情节的人。
Or in the rarest of instances, the person who's actually the best chef or the best designer.
或者在极少数情况下，这个人实际上是最好的厨师或最好的设计师。
Ain't no friend of mine here.
这里没有我的朋友。
I don't need no friends.
我不需要朋友。
I will step on the back of their neck to get to the top any time I feel it's necessary.
每当我觉得有必要的时候，我都会踩在他们的脖子后面到达顶峰。
Though of course, there's winning, and then there's winning.
当然，先有胜利，然后才有胜利。
If you spend any time talking to your typical reality star, you come to realize that the greatest reward of all is camera time.
如果您花时间与典型的真人秀明星交谈，您会发现最大的奖励就是拍照时间。
And the easiest way to achieve that, barring any real skill, is to tap into your id and simply unleash.
实现这一目标的最简单方法，除非有任何真正的技能，就是利用你的本我并简单地释放。
And it works.
它有效。
We remember Omarosa, but can you even recall the name of the first winner of The Apprentice, much less a single sentence he uttered?
我们记得奥马罗萨，但你能记得《学徒》第一名获胜者的名字吗，更不用说他说过的一句话了？
I'm not here to make friends.
我来这里不是为了交朋友的。
Man 6 Yeah, whatever.
男人 6 是的，无论如何。
I'm not here to make friends.
我来这里不是为了交朋友的。
I'm not here to make friends.
我来这里不是为了交朋友的。
I'm here to win fights.
我来这里是为了赢得战斗。
I'm not here to make friends with anybody.
我来这里不是为了和任何人交朋友。
I'm here for Bret.
我是来找布雷特的。
I'm not here to make friends.
我来这里不是为了交朋友的。
I'm not going to apologize for how I feel.
我不会为我的感受道歉。
I didn't say nothing bad.
我并没有说任何不好的话。
I'm not here to make friends, and if I'm not making any enemies.
我来这里不是为了交朋友，也不是为了树敌。
Rich Juzwiak.
里奇·朱兹维亚克。
His blog, where you can watch both of his, "I'm not here to make friends" videos is fourfourtypepad.com.
您可以在他的博客 fourfourtypepad.com 上观看他的两个“我不是来交朋友的”视频。
That's four four, write out the word each time.
就是四四，每次都写出这个词。
F-O-U-R.
F-O-U-R。
fourfour.typepad.com.
fourfour.typepad.com。
Coming up, David Rakoff and how to make a wedding toast for people that you have never wanted to see married.
接下来，大卫·拉考夫（David Rakoff）将讲述如何为那些你从来不想看到结婚的人祝酒。
And what are you doing at their wedding anyway?
那么你在他们的婚礼上做什么呢？
That's in a minute.
就在一分钟之内。
From Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续进行时，来自芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台。
It's This American Life , I'm Ira Glass.
这就是美国生活，我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our show we chose a theme and bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
我们的节目每周都会选择一个主题，并为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's show, Frenemies.
今天的节目，亦敌亦友。
And if the word frenemy just seemed to show up in your life, arrive in your life a couple years ago unannounced, I think that is how pretty much everybody feels.
如果“亦敌亦友”这个词似乎出现在你的生活中，几年前突然出现在你的生活中，我想这几乎是每个人的感受。
Though, its first appearance in the world that anybody can find is all the way back in 1953.
不过，它在世界上首次出现可以追溯到 1953 年。
Gossip columnist, Walter Winchell, says in one of his column's, "Howz about calling the Russians our Frienemies?" Didn't catch on.
八卦专栏作家沃尔特·温切尔（Walter Winchell）在他的一篇专栏文章中说道：“称俄罗斯为我们的友敌怎么样？”没听懂。
Lexicographer, Erin McKean agreed to research this a little for us.
词典编纂者艾琳·麦基恩同意为我们对此进行一些研究。
She used to edit The New Oxford American Dictionary and now runs the online dictionary, Wordnik.
她曾编辑《新牛津美国词典》，现在负责运营在线词典 Wordnik。
She says the next citation of frenemy seems to be 24 years after Winchell, 1977 by the writer, Jessica Mitford.
她说，作家杰西卡·米特福德 (Jessica Mitford) 于 1977 年再次引用“亦敌亦友”一词，似乎是在温切尔事件发生 24 年后。
When she was talking about her sister and her sister's frenemy, and said they played together constantly and all the time disliking each other heartily.
当她说起姐姐和姐姐的亦敌亦友的时候，还说她们经常一起玩，而且一直心里不喜欢对方。
Mitford said that she and her sisters used the words as kids and they thought they made it up.
米特福德说，她和她的姐妹们小时候就用过这个词，她们认为这是自己编的。
It still doesn't catch on.
它仍然没有流行起来。
The next citation is 15 years after that, 1992, in a book of word games.
下一次引用是在 15 年后，即 1992 年，在一本文字游戏书中。
And that author also thinks that she is inventing the word.
这位作者还认为她正在发明这个词。
It's not until the late 1990s that it shows up and the people using the word seem to believe that any other people have ever used it before them.
直到 20 世纪 90 年代末，这个词才出现，使用这个词的人似乎相信在他们之前还有其他人使用过这个词。
It's in a hit song by the New Radicals, "You Get What You Give" in 1998.
它出现在 New Radicals 1998 年的热门歌曲《You Get What You Give》中。
And then it was on Sex and the City in 2000, late 2000.
然后是2000年的《欲望都市》，2000年底。
Is that the turning point?
这是转折点吗？
Erin Mckean I think so.
艾琳·麦基恩 我想是的。
After that, she says, it starts showing up all over the place.
她说，在那之后，它开始出现在各处。
You get the executive editor of The New York Times , Bill Keller, declaring that Google is one of those companies The New York Times quote, "refers to as a frenemy," end quote.
《纽约时报》的执行主编比尔·凯勒 (Bill Keller) 宣称，谷歌是《纽约时报》引用的“亦敌亦友”的公司之一。
In 2008, it's put into the online Oxford English Dictionary .
2008年，它被收入在线牛津英语词典。
In 2009-- just two months ago-- it enters Merriam-Webster's dictionary.
2009 年——就在两个月前——它进入了韦氏词典。
But Erin McKean found it in one place much, much more than any other: young adult novels, targeted at teen girls, starting at around 2006.
但艾琳·麦基恩 (Erin McKean) 在一个地方比其他任何地方都发现了这一点：从 2006 年左右开始，针对青少年女孩的青少年小说。
But a lot of these words are just forcing their way to the surface of English.
但其中很多单词只是强行出现在英语的表面。
They just need to be made.
它们只需要被制造出来。
And I think frenemy is a word like that.
我认为亦敌亦友就是这样一个词。
Really?
真的吗？
Erin Mckean Yeah.
艾琳·麦基恩 是的。
I mean, well, think about it.
我的意思是，好吧，考虑一下。
So the sounds fit together really well.
所以声音非常契合。
You know, friend and enemy.
你知道，朋友和敌人。
They have a matching sound that you can blend together.
它们具有匹配的声音，您可以将它们混合在一起。
So it's a blend word.
所以这是一个混合词。
And people love the juxtaposition of two opposites.
人们喜欢两种对立面的并置。
Wait, are there other words like this where they sound alike and then they get smashed together into one word?
等等，还有其他类似的单词，它们听起来很相似，然后又被拼凑成一个单词吗？
Oh, it happens like all the time.
哦，这种事经常发生。
Like guesstimate.
就像猜测一样。
And that's from 1936.
那是从 1936 年开始的。
Do you have another?
你还有另一个吗？
Erin Mckean I love this one, and people say this one all the time with a little thrill of thinking they're the first person ever to say it.
艾琳·麦基恩（Erin Mckean）我喜欢这句话，人们总是说这句话，当他们认为自己是第一个说这句话的人时，会感到有点兴奋。
You know, that someone is entering their anecdotage.
你知道，有人正在讲述他们的轶事。
Oh, I've never heard that.
哦，我从来没有听说过。
So it's like you get old and then you start telling your anecdotes, and that's it?
就好像你变老了，然后你开始讲述你的轶事，就这样了吗？
Right.
正确的。
And I think the essential part is you start telling the same anecdotes over and over again.
我认为最重要的是你开始一遍又一遍地讲述同样的轶事。
Right.
正确的。
You got another?
你还有另一个吗？
Erin Mckean Lots of people say that they are the first person to create the word linner.
艾琳·麦基恩（Erin Mckean） 很多人说他们是第一个创造“linner”这个词的人。
Linner?
林纳？
Erin Mckean Linner is that meal you must have between lunch and dinner.
Erin Mckean Linner 是您午餐和晚餐之间必须吃的一餐。
That just makes me feel mad at somebody hearing that.
这只会让我对有人听到这个感到生气。
You're like, oh for God's sake, wipe that look off your face.
你就像，哦，看在上帝的份上，把你脸上的表情擦掉吧。
Right.
正确的。
And a lot of people who come and talk to lexicographers think they're being really clever when they use the word slanguage.
许多前来与词典编纂者交谈的人认为，当他们使用“语言”这个词时，他们真的很聪明。
So, slang plus language.
所以，俚语加上语言。
Does the fact that there's a word for this phenomenon, frenemy, indicate that it's a common thing to happen in the world?
这种现象有一个词“亦敌亦友”，这是否表明这种现象在世界上很常见？
Oh, no. Because there are words for all sorts of crazy and unusual things that are fairly rare.
哦，不。因为有一些词可以形容各种疯狂和不寻常的事物，而这些事物是相当罕见的。
I mean there are lots of things that we talk about that we don't have single words for in English.
我的意思是，我们谈论的很多事情在英语中都没有一个单词可以表达。
When we don't have a single word for something in English that we think we should have a word for, it's called a lexical gap.
当我们在英语中没有一个单词来表达我们认为应该有一个单词来表达的东西时，这被称为词汇差距。
Pretty much the most famous example of a lexical gap is that we have a word for people who've lost their parents.
词汇差距最著名的例子就是我们有一个词来形容失去父母的人。
You know, we call them orphans.
你知道，我们称他们为孤儿。
But we don't have a single word for parents who have lost a child.
但对于失去孩子的父母，我们却只字不提。
So there are lots of people who have made suggestions.
所以有很多人提出了建议。
None of which I can remember right now because none of them have stuck.
我现在都不记得了，因为它们都没有粘住。
Right.
正确的。
That sounds like some sad contest on public radio on the weekend where they'd have people write in to make up that word.
这听起来像是周末公共广播电台上的一场悲伤的比赛，他们让人们写下这个词来组成这个词。
Right.
正确的。
Ira Glass It's worth noting that while Erin found tons of citations referring to girl frenemies, she only found a couple in which men were each other's frenemies.
值得注意的是，虽然艾琳发现了大量提及女性亦敌亦友的引文，但她只发现了一对男性互为亦敌亦友的夫妇。
NASCAR driver, Dale Earnhardt, is described in a book as being frenemies with Michael Waltrip on his team.
纳斯卡赛车手戴尔·恩哈特 (Dale Earnhardt) 在一本书中被描述为与他的车队中的迈克尔·沃尔特里普 (Michael Waltrip) 亦敌亦友。
And the most random citation?
最随机的引用？
It linked to the word with Hindu scripture from two millennia ago.
它与两千年前的印度教经文联系在一起。
Someone was trying to refer to the Bhagavad Gita, and there's some line in it that says, "Self is the friend of self.
有人试图引用《薄伽梵歌》，其中有一句话说：“自我是自我的朋友。
Self is the enemy of self." And then they say, so you can talk about yourself as your frenemy.
自我是自我的敌人。”然后他们说，这样你就可以把自己说成是你的亦敌了。
So there's like this total abrupt shift of tone from self is the friend of self to self is your frenemy.
所以，语气突然从“自我是自己的朋友”转变为“自我是你的敌人”。
Self is your frenemy.
自我是你的亦敌亦友。
That sentence just proves that while we have all come to learn the word frenemy sometime during the last decade, any sentence with the word frenemy is probably not a sentence you want to try to get profound with.
这句话只是证明，虽然我们在过去十年中的某个时候都开始学习“友敌”这个词，但任何带有“友敌”这个词的句子可能都不是你想要深入理解的句子。
Frenemy's here.
亦敌亦友来了。
It's on the scene.
就在现场。
It's here to stay as a word.
它在这里作为一个词保留下来。
But it is still not ready for the heavy lifting.
但它还没有准备好承担繁重的工作。
"Act three, Speak Now or Forever Hold Your Peace."
“第三幕，现在就说，否则就永远保持沉默。”
Being not friend friends can get you into some very confusing situations.
不成为朋友可能会让你陷入一些非常混乱的境地。
Take this example from David Rakoff.
以大卫·拉科夫（David Rakoff）为例。
Nathan at one of the outlying tables, his feet tangled up in the disc jockey's cables, surveyed the room as unseen as a ghost, while he mulled over what he might say for his toast.
内森坐在最边远的一张桌子旁，双脚缠在唱片骑师的电缆中，他像幽灵一样看不见地环视着整个房间，同时思考着自己在祝酒时要说些什么。
That the couple had asked him for this benediction seemed at odds with them parking him here by the kitchen.
这对夫妇向他请求这一祝福似乎与他们把他停在厨房旁边的说法不一致。
That he'd shown up at all was still a surprise.
他的出现仍然令人惊讶。
And not just to him, it was there in the eyes of the guests who had seen a mirage and drew near, and then covered their shock with a, "Nathan, you're here." And then, silence.
不仅对他来说，在看到海市蜃楼并走近的客人眼中也有这种感觉，然后用“内森，你来了”来掩盖他们的震惊。然后，一片寂静。
They had nothing to say beyond that.
除此之外，他们无话可说。
A few of the braver souls lingered to chat.
一些勇敢的人留下来聊天。
They all knew it was neither a secret nor a mystery that he and the couple had quite an odd history.
他们都知道，他和这对夫妇有一段相当奇怪的历史，这既不是秘密，也不是谜团。
Their bonds were a tangle of friendship and sex.
他们的纽带是友谊和性的纠缠。
Josh, his best pal once, and Patty, his ex.
乔什（Josh），他曾经最好的朋友，帕蒂（Patty），他的前任。
For a while he could barely go out in the city without being a punchline or object of pity.
有一段时间，他几乎一进城就成为笑话或怜悯的对象。
Poor Nathan had virtually become his new name, and so he showed up just to show he was game.
可怜的内森实际上已经成了他的新名字，所以他出现只是为了表明他很愿意。
Though his invite was late, a forgotten addendum.
尽管他的邀请迟到了，只是一个被遗忘的附录。
For Nate there could be no more clear referendum that he need but endure through this evening.
对于内特来说，除了熬过今晚之外，他不需要更明确的公投。
And then, he would likely not see Josh and Patty again.
然后，他可能就再也见不到乔什和帕蒂了。
Josh's sister was speaking, a princess in peach.
乔什的妹妹正在说话，她是一位桃色公主。
Nathan dug in his pocket to study his speech.
内森伸手掏口袋研究他的演讲。
He had poured over Bartlett's for couplets to filch.
他在巴特利特的店里倒了一些对联来偷窃。
He'd stayed up until 3:00, still came up with zilch.
他熬夜到了 3:00，仍然没有想到。
Except for instructions he'd underscored twice.
除了他强调了两次的指示之外。
Just two words in length, and those words were, be nice.
只有两个字，那就是，乖一点。
Too often he thought our emotions betray us and reason departs once were up on the dais.
他常常认为我们的情感背叛了我们，而理性一旦登上讲台就消失了。
He'd witnessed uncomfortable moments where others had lost their way quickly, where sisters and brothers had gotten too prickly, and peppered their babbling with stories of benders or lesbian dabbling, or spot on impressions of mothers-in-law Which true, Nathan thought, always garnered guffaws.
他目睹过令人不舒服的时刻，其他人很快就迷失了方向，兄弟姐妹变得太易怒，他们的胡言乱语中夹杂着酗酒者或女同性恋涉足的故事，或者发现了婆婆的印象——内森认为这是真的，总是会引起哄堂大笑。
But the price seemed too high, with the laugh seldom cloaking.
但代价似乎太高了，笑声很少掩盖。
Hostility masquerading as joking.
敌意伪装成玩笑。
No, he'd swallow his rage and he'd bank all his fire.
不，他会咽下怒火，并熄灭所有的火。
He knew that in his case the bar was set higher.
他知道，就他而言，门槛更高。
Folks were just waiting for him to erupt.
人们只是在等待他爆发。
They'd be hungry for blood even though they had supped.
即使他们吃过晚饭，他们也会渴望血。
They'd want tears, or some other unsightly reaction, and Nathan would not give them that satisfaction.
他们想要眼泪，或者其他一些难看的反应，而内森不会给他们那种满足。
Though Patty a harlot and Josh was a lout, at least Nathan knew what he'd not talk about.
尽管帕蒂是个妓女，乔什是个粗鲁的人，但至少内森知道他不会谈论什么。
I won't wish them divorce, that they wither and sicken, or tonight that they choke on their salmon or chicken.
我不希望他们离婚，不希望他们枯萎生病，也不希望他们今晚被鲑鱼或鸡肉噎住。
I won't mention that time when the cottage lost power in that storm on the Cape and they left for an hour.
我不会提及那次小屋在海角的暴风雨中断电，他们离开了一个小时。
And they thought it was just the cleverest ruse to pretend it took that long to switch out the fuse.
他们认为这只是最聪明的诡计，假装花了那么长时间才关掉保险丝。
Or that time Josh advised me with so much insistence that I should grant Patty a little more distance.
或者那次乔什非常坚持地建议我应该与帕蒂保持更多的距离。
That the worst I could do was to hamper and crowd her.
我能做的最糟糕的事情就是阻碍和拥挤她。
That if Patty felt stifled she'd just take a powder.
如果帕蒂感到窒息，她就会服用爽身粉。
That a plant needs its space just as much as its water.
植物需要它的空间就像它需要水一样。
And I shouldn't give Patty that ring that I'd bought her.
我不应该把我买给帕蒂的戒指给她。
Which in retrospect, only elicits a, gosh, I hardly deserved a friend like you, Josh.
回想起来，这只会引起一个，天哪，我几乎不配拥有像你这样的朋友，乔什。
No, I won't spill those beans, or make myself foolish, to satisfy appetites venal and ghoulish.
不，我不会泄露这些秘密，也不会为了满足贪婪和残忍的欲望而让自己变得愚蠢。
I will not be the blot on this hellish affair.
我不会成为这桩地狱事件的污点。
And with that, Nathan pushed out and rose from his chair.
说完，内森推身而出，从椅子上站了起来。
And just by the tapping of knife against crystal, all eyes turned his way, like he'd fired off a pistol.
当刀敲击水晶时，所有的目光都转向他，就像他开枪一样。
Joshua, Patricia, dear family and friends, a few words, if you will, before everything ends.
约书亚、帕特里夏、亲爱的家人和朋友，在一切结束之前，如果你们愿意的话，请说几句话。
You've promised to honor, to love and obey.
你已经承诺要尊重、爱和服从。
We've quaffed our champagne and been cleansed by sorbet, all in endorsement of your hers-and-his-dom.
我们喝了香槟，喝了果汁冰糕，这一切都是为了支持你们的男女关系。
So now let me add my two cents' worth of wisdom.
现在让我补充一下我的两分钱智慧。
I was racking my brain sitting here at this table until I remembered this suitable fable that gets at a truth, though it may well distort us.
我坐在这张桌子前绞尽脑汁，直到我想起这个合适的寓言，它揭示了真相，尽管它很可能会扭曲我们。
So here with the tale of the scorpion and tortoise.
这是蝎子和乌龟的故事。
The scorpion was hamstrung, his tail all aquiver, just how would he manage to get cross the river?
蝎子腿筋都断了，尾巴都在颤抖，怎么才能过河呢？
The water's so deep, he observed with a sigh, which pricked at the ears of the tortoise nearby.
水太深了，他叹了口气，附近乌龟的耳朵都被刺痛了。
Well, why don't you swim, asked the slow-moving fellow.
那么，你为什么不去游泳呢？”行动缓慢的家伙问道。
Unless you're afraid, I mean, what are you, yellow?
除非你害怕，我是说，你是什么，黄种人？
It isn't a matter of fear or of whim, said the scorpion, but that I don't know how to swim.
蝎子说，这不是因为害怕，也不是因为心血来潮，而是因为我不会游泳。
Ah, forgive me, I didn't mean to be glib when I said that.
啊，请原谅我，我这么说并不是故意的。
I figured you were an amphibian.
我以为你是两栖动物
No offense taken, the scorpion replied.
没有冒犯的意思，蝎子回答道。
But how bout you help me to reach the far side?
但你能帮我到达遥远的彼岸吗？
You swim like a dream and you have what I lack.
你游得像梦一样，你拥有我所缺乏的。
Let's say you take me across on your back.
假设你背着我过去。
I'm really not sure that's the best thing to do, said the tortoise, now that I see that it's you.
“我真的不确定这是否是最好的做法，”乌龟说，“现在我知道是你了。”
You've a less than ideal reputation preceding.
你之前的声誉不太理想。
There's talk of your victims all poisoned and bleeding.
有传言说你的受害者都中毒流血了。
You're the scorpion, and how can I say this, but well, I just don't feel safe with you riding my shell.
你是蝎子，我怎么能这么说，但是好吧，你骑在我的壳上我只是觉得不安全。
The scorpion replied, what would killing you prove?
蝎子说，杀了你能证明什么？
We'd both drown.
我们都会被淹死。
So tell me, how would that behoove me to basically die at my very own hand, when all I desire is to be on dry land?
那么告诉我，当我只想待在干燥的土地上时，我怎么会基本上死在自己手里呢？
The tortoise considered the scorpion's defense.
乌龟考虑了蝎子的防御。
When he gave it some thought, it made perfect sense.
当他想一想时，他发现这是完全有道理的。
The niggling voice in his mind he ignored, and he swam to the bank and called out, climb aboard.
他忽略了脑海中那个烦人的声音，游到岸边喊道：“快上船吧。”
But just a few moments from when they set sail, the scorpion lashed out with his venomous tail.
但就在他们起航后不久，蝎子就用有毒的尾巴猛烈攻击。
The tortoise, too late, understood that he'd blundered when he felt his flesh stabbed and his carapace sundered.
当乌龟感觉到自己的肉被刺伤、甲壳破裂时，他才意识到自己犯了一个大错误，但为时已晚。
As he fought for his life he said, tell me why you have done this for now we will surely both die?
当他为自己的生命而战时，他说，告诉我你为什么现在这样做，我们肯定都会死？
I don't know, cried the scorpion.
我不知道，蝎子叫道。
You never should trust a creature like me because poison I must.
你永远不应该相信像我这样的生物，因为我必须下毒。
I'd claim some remorse or at least some compunction, but I just can't help it, my form is my function.
我会声称有些悔恨，或者至少有些内疚，但我就是无能为力，我的形式就是我的功能。
You thought I'd behave like my cousin the crab, but unlike him it is but my nature to stab.
你以为我会表现得像我的螃蟹表弟，但与他不同的是，我的本性就是刺伤。
The tortoise expired with one final quiver, and then both of them sank, swallowed up by the river.
乌龟最后一颤就断气了，然后他们俩就沉下去了，被河水吞没了。
The tortoise was wrong to ignore all his doubts, because in the end, friends, our natures will out.
乌龟忽视他所有的疑虑是错误的，因为最终，朋友们，我们的本性将会消失。
Nathan paused, cleared his throat, took a sip of his drink.
内森停了下来，清了清喉咙，喝了一口饮料。
He needed these extra few seconds to think.
他需要这额外的几秒钟来思考。
The room had gone frosty, the tension was growing.
房间里变得冷冰冰的，气氛越来越紧张。
Folks wondered precisely where Nathan was going.
人们确切地想知道内森要去哪里。
The prospects of skirting fiasco seemed dim, but what he said next surprised even him.
避免惨败的前景似乎很渺茫，但他接下来说的话连他自己都感到惊讶。
So what can we learn from their watery ends?
那么我们可以从它们的水性末端学到什么呢？
Is there some lesson on how to be friends?
有没有关于如何成为朋友的课程？
I think what it means is that central to living, a life that is good is a life that's forgiving.
我认为这意味着生活的核心，美好的生活就是宽容的生活。
We're creatures of contact.
我们是接触的生物。
Regardless of whether we kiss or we wound, still we must come together.
不管我们是亲吻还是受伤，我们仍然必须在一起。
Though it may spell destruction, we still ask for more, since it beats staying dry, but so lonely on shore.
尽管这可能意味着毁灭，但我们仍然要求更多，因为这比在岸上保持干燥但如此孤独要好。
So we make ourselves open, while knowing full well it's essentially saying, please, come pierce my shell.
所以我们让自己敞开心扉，同时充分了解这本质上是在说，请刺穿我的外壳。
Silence doesn't paint the depth of quiet in that room.
沉默并不能描绘出那个房间里的安静深度。
There was no clinking stemware toasting to the bride or groom.
没有叮当作响的高脚杯向新娘或新郎敬酒。
You could have heard a petal as it landed on the floor.
当花瓣落在地板上时，你可能会听到它的声音。
And in that stillness Nathan turned and walked right out the door.
在一片寂静中，内森转身走出了门。
David Rakoff is the author of several books, most recently, Don't Get Too Comfortable .
大卫·拉考夫 (David Rakoff) 是多本书的作者，最近出版了《别太舒服》(Don’t Get Too Comfortable)。
"Act four, The Case of the Long Lost Frenemy."
“第四幕，失散已久的亦敌事件。”
Did you ever get into one of those situations with somebody where you can't really tell, you actually can't tell, wait, are we friends, are we not friends?
你是否曾经遇到过这样一种情况，与某人在一起时你无法真正分辨，你实际上无法分辨，等等，我们是朋友还是不是朋友？
What do you want from me exactly?
你到底想从我这里得到什么？
Elle Smith found herself in that situation with a woman that here on the radio we're calling Jennifer, who Elle Smith knew in high school.
艾丽·史密斯发现自己和一位女士处于这种情况，我们在广播中称她为詹妮弗，艾丽·史密斯在高中时就认识她。
And who got in touch with Elle Smith out of the blue by email.
谁突然通过电子邮件与艾丽·史密斯取得了联系。
And then they slowly began an email correspondence.
然后他们慢慢开始通过电子邮件通信。
I hadn't heard anything from her in over 35 years.
我已经 35 年没有收到她的任何消息了。
Our parting had been so monumentally final and kind of dramatic.
我们的离别是如此具有纪念意义且具有戏剧性。
And you say monumental, monumental and bad it sounds like?
你说具有纪念意义，具有纪念意义，但听起来很糟糕？
Monumental and bad, yeah.
是的，具有纪念意义且糟糕。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
We'd had this really, really intense friendship.
我们有着非常非常深厚的友谊。
Very, very tight, told each other everything, at sort of the white hot phase of adolescence.
非常非常紧张，彼此告诉对方一切，就像青春期的白热化阶段一样。
And then it ended when she basically wrote this very formal letter disowning me, saying that our friendship was over, she would have nothing to do further with me.
然后当她写了一封非常正式的信来与我断绝关系时，一切就结束了，她说我们的友谊结束了，她不会再和我有任何关系了。
And that was the end.
一切就这样结束了。
And so it was just really dissonant to get this chirpy, hey you, kind of email.
所以收到这种欢快的、嘿你这样的电子邮件真的很不和谐。
You forwarded a couple of these emails and the very first one from her, she writes in her email, "Is it too strange to write and catch up?
你转发了几封这样的电子邮件，其中第一封是她发来的，她在电子邮件中写道，“写信和追赶是不是太奇怪了？
Is that you, [?
是你吗，[？
Elpie?" ?]
艾尔皮？” ？]
Yes.
是的。
Ira Glass "Cheers." And then she signs her name.
艾拉·格拉斯“干杯。”然后她签下了自己的名字。
Yes.
是的。
And it was weird and strange.
这很奇怪。
So she called me by my childhood nickname, which I haven't heard or seen in decades.
所以她用我儿时的昵称来称呼我，这个昵称我已经几十年没听过或见过了。
So that was just kind of like one of those things where she was googling around and saw that my name had come up.
所以这有点像她在谷歌搜索时看到我的名字出现的事情之一。
And this correspondence sort of unfolds over several months.
这种通信需要持续几个月的时间。
And so I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop.
所以我一直在等待另一只鞋落地。
Oh, because after this first initial exchange of two emails, nobody brings it up.
哦，因为在第一次交换两封电子邮件之后，没有人提起这件事。
Nobody brings up, oh, by the way, about that letter you wrote me cutting me off forever.
哦，顺便说一句，没有人提起你写给我的那封永远与我断绝联系的信。
That doesn't come up?
那没有出现吗？
Not directly.
不直接。
At first I thought, well, she's just pretending not to remember and she just wants us to be all nice nice.
起初我想，好吧，她只是假装不记得，她只是希望我们都好好的。
And then as things kind of continued I realized, oh, she has absolutely and genuinely no recollection.
然后随着事情的继续，我意识到，哦，她绝对没有任何记忆。
There's something else going on here.
这里还有其他事情发生。
And so what happened as you corresponded more?
那么当你们通信更多时发生了什么？
So as we correspond, we start talking about our families a little bit.
因此，当我们通信时，我们开始谈论我们的家庭。
She has daughters, and she talks about what her daughters are doing.
她有女儿，她谈论女儿们在做什么。
And what becomes very striking is that one of her daughters, she's very, very serious about her music, like sort of a talented, obsessive musician.
令人印象深刻的是，她的一个女儿对她的音乐非常非常认真，就像一位才华横溢、痴迷的音乐家。
This is exactly where I was when I was at exactly this age.
这正是我这个年纪时的处境。
So this daughter is 14 years old.
那么这个女儿今年14岁了。
There's this very, very strong parallel between what her daughter's like now and what I was like then.
她女儿现在的样子和我当时的样子非常非常相似。
Including, and this is where things started to get kind of crazy, this very, very close relationship between her daughter and her music-- the daughter's music teacher.
包括，这就是事情开始变得有点疯狂的地方，她的女儿和她的音乐——女儿的音乐老师之间非常非常密切的关系。
Sort of the hair stood up on the back of my neck, kind of when she started talking about it.
当她开始谈论这件事时，我脖子后面的汗毛都竖起来了。
An older male, very charismatic, and sort of reading between the lines I could tell you that Jennifer was somewhat uneasy with this relationship.
一位年长的男性，非常有魅力，从字里行间我可以告诉你，詹妮弗对这种关系有些不安。
But as she expressed it, my daughter's privacy is so very precious to me and I would never dream of interfering.
但正如她所说，我女儿的隐私对我来说非常宝贵，我永远不会干涉。
Did the daughter have a crush on the teacher?
女儿是不是暗恋老师？
Yes.
是的。
So the daughter seemed to be, in Jennifer's view, almost too close to the music teacher.
因此，在詹妮弗看来，女儿与音乐老师的关系似乎太亲密了。
She was having private lessons with him, and apparently also had a very, very intense internet relationship with him.
她正在和他一起上私人课程，显然也和他有非常非常密切的互联网关系。
So they were corresponding over the phone and corresponding over the internet, and then also having private lessons.
所以他们通过电话通信，通过网络通信，然后还进行私人课程。
And I could smell it.
我能闻到它的味道。
I know the sort of the danger signs in that kind of relationship.
我知道这种关系中存在哪些危险信号。
And talk about your own experience when it came to that kind of thing.
并谈谈你自己在遇到此类事情时的经历。
OK, so when I was a kid I had a difficult family situation, and I was, I think, at the same age, really looking for acceptance, and authority figures were very attractive to me.
好吧，当我还是个孩子的时候，我的家庭状况很困难，而且我认为，在同一个年龄，我真的在寻求接受，权威人物对我来说非常有吸引力。
And I respected my teachers and just loved them.
我尊重我的老师并且爱他们。
And then what happened to me was that right at that point I came into contact with a music teacher who a normal person would not violate that kind of relationship, but this guy was a complete predator.
然后发生在我身上的事情是，就在那时，我接触到了一位音乐老师，正常人不会违反这种关系，但这家伙是一个十足的掠夺者。
And I was molested and raped at the age of 13 by this guy.
我13岁时就被这个家伙猥亵和强奸了。
Totally traumatized, huge fallout from it.
完全受到创伤，后果巨大。
Destroyed my life in certain ways for a long time.
很长一段时间以某些方式毁掉了我的生活。
Took me a long, long time to kind of put it together from that.
我花了很长很长的时间才把它整合起来。
And Jennifer was one of the, I think, two people that I told.
我想，詹妮弗是我告诉过的两个人之一。
On the one hand, we were in this completely parallel situation where we both had crushes on these teachers.
一方面，我们处于完全平行的境地，我们都迷恋这些老师。
And then suddenly--
然后突然——
Oh, she also at that time when you're in high school, she had a crush on a teacher?
哦，她也在高中的时候，暗恋过一个老师？
Yes, huge crush on her teacher.
是的，非常迷恋她的老师。
And we would get together and giggle and talk about how wonderful these teachers were, and how fascinating everything that they did was, and all this kind of stuff.
我们会聚在一起咯咯地笑，谈论这些老师是多么出色，他们所做的一切是多么令人着迷，诸如此类的事情。
And then we got to this moment where, in my instance, this guy just completely took it, and it was like I fell off a cliff with it.
然后我们到了这一刻，就我而言，这个人完全接受了它，就像我从悬崖上掉下来一样。
Because he was a pedophile.
因为他是一个恋童癖者。
And whereas her teacher was-- it continued on in this kind of storybook teenagery, giggly thing.
而她的老师却——在这种青少年故事书中继续着，咯咯笑的事情。
So I was kind of off on my own in this whole different, horrible world.
所以我在这个完全不同、可怕的世界里有点孤单。
And Jennifer was still in her childhood in a sense.
而詹妮弗从某种意义上来说还处于童年时期。
And then eventually did your parents find out and authorities find out, and was action taken against this guy?
最终你的父母发现了，当局发现了，并对这个人采取了行动吗？
No, no action was ever taken.
不，没有采取任何行动。
My family-- I tried approaching my parents about it.
我的家人——我尝试向我的父母询问此事。
And they just weren't that interested.
他们只是没那么感兴趣。
And, in fact, their explicit position was, some things really ought to be private.
事实上，他们的明确立场是，有些事情确实应该保密。
And so at that point I kind of realized, oh.
所以在那一刻我意识到，哦。
They're not going to be a help.
他们不会提供帮助。
And certainly, they're not going to call in any kind of authority.
当然，他们不会求助于任何权威人士。
So you told Jennifer and one other friend?
所以你告诉了詹妮弗和另一位朋友？
Yeah.
是的。
And Jennifer's family was extremely loving in this situation.
詹妮弗的家人在这种情况下非常有爱。
I don't think she ever actually told them what had happened to me, but it was clear that I was really troubled, and really depressed, and completely kind of feral.
我认为她从来没有真正告诉过他们我发生了什么事，但很明显我真的很困扰，真的很沮丧，而且完全是一种野性。
And so they became like another family to me.
所以他们对我来说就像另一个家庭。
So I would go and I would stay with them.
所以我会走，我会和他们呆在一起。
And I think it was a way of kind of pretending that my childhood also was continuing.
我认为这是一种假装我的童年也在继续的方式。
And they really kind of were a refuge for me during the very worst period.
在我最糟糕的时期，他们确实是我的避难所。
And you said before that at some point she cut you off.
你之前说过，在某个时刻她打断了你。
Was that part of this?
这是其中的一部分吗？
Yeah, so kind of about six to eight months after this guy raped me, Jennifer and this other friend wrote this letter basically saying, you're not one of us anymore.
是的，在这个家伙强奸我大约六到八个月后，詹妮弗和另一位朋友写了这封信，基本上是说，你不再是我们中的一员了。
We reject you, and we don't want to have anything to do with you further.
我们拒绝你，我们不想再和你有任何关系。
Wait, wait, wait.
等等，等等，等等。
Was there a problem with you that you somehow seemed different than them now that you had this experience, or were they blaming you for what had happened?
你是否有问题，因为你有这样的经历，你在某种程度上似乎与他们不同，或者他们是否因为发生的事情而责备你？
Were they saying that you had like bad character that this happened?
他们是不是说你性格不好才会发生这种事？
I think a bit of both.
我觉得两者都有一点。
Maybe in terms of Jennifer's perspective, this could have been her.
也许从詹妮弗的角度来看，这可能就是她。
So I think on some level what she was doing was saying, I'm not you and you're not me.
所以我认为在某种程度上她所做的就是在说，我不是你，你也不是我。
But the irony is that-- and this comes out in these emails 35 years later.
但具有讽刺意味的是，这一点在 35 年后的这些电子邮件中出现了。
In fact, she went on to marry her high school teacher.
事实上，她后来嫁给了她的高中老师。
Not the same one, a different one.
不是同一个，是不同的。
Literally within two years she marries another teacher.
两年之内，她就嫁给了另一位老师。
And what's interesting is that in the emails she points to that as being a reason why we quote, "lost touch." So she said, oh, I lost touch with so many of my friends as a result of that relationship.
有趣的是，在电子邮件中，她指出这是我们引用“失去联系”的原因。所以她说，哦，由于这种关系，我与很多朋友失去了联系。
And I'm thinking, huh, OK.
我在想，嗯，好吧。
Well, that's weird.
嗯，这很奇怪。
Then she divorces him and marries-- it sounds like a really, really nice guy.
然后她和他离婚并结婚了——听起来是一个非常非常好的人。
And that's the guy with whom she has the kids.
那就是和她生孩子的那个人。
And so this is your history with her, and then you find yourself 35 years later emailing with her about her daughter and her daughter's crush on her teacher.
这就是你和她的历史，然后你发现自己在 35 年后与她通过电子邮件谈论她的女儿以及她女儿对老师的迷恋。
And she doesn't seem to remember any of that?
而且她好像什么都不记得了？
None of it.
都没有。
Not a single detail.
没有一个细节。
Yeah.
是的。
And then when it became clear that her daughter was like in this really, really perilous situation, and recognizing that Jennifer wasn't seeing the train coming on the tracks.
然后，当她意识到她的女儿正处于这种非常非常危险的情况时，她意识到詹妮弗没有看到火车驶上轨道。
At that point, I said, look, I know that you respect your daughter's privacy, but this doesn't sound right, and I think you ought to contact the authorities.
那时，我说，你看，我知道你尊重你女儿的隐私，但这听起来不对，我认为你应该联系当局。
And did she?
她呢？
Elle Smith She did.
艾丽·史密斯 她做到了。
And what was kind of interesting about it was that there was a long kind of lull.
有趣的是，有一段很长的平静期。
So there are about two weeks where there's like complete radio silence between us.
所以大约有两周的时间我们之间完全没有无线电静默。
And I'm thinking to myself, oh I pushed too hard.
我心里想，哦，我逼得太紧了。
Because I thought about it very, very carefully before I suggested that to her.
因为在我向她提出这个建议之前，我考虑得非常非常仔细。
Because I thought, am I pushing somebody to violate their relationship with their child?
因为我想，我是否在强迫某人破坏他们与孩子的关系？
Am I so blinded by my own personal history that this, in fact, is perfectly fine as a relationship?
我是否被自己的个人经历蒙蔽了双眼，以至于实际上这种关系完全没问题？
Blah, blah, blah.
巴拉，巴拉，巴拉。
And then I get this email from her, and I was totally blown away because she just went in and took care of business in a really impressive way.
然后我收到她发来的这封电子邮件，我完全震惊了，因为她刚刚进去并以一种非常令人印象深刻的方式处理业务。
So she got in touch with a counselor, the counselor put her in touch with the police.
于是她联系了辅导员，辅导员让她联系了警察。
The police moved on this.
警方对此采取了行动。
The daughter's cell phone and computer were seized.
女儿的手机和电脑被没收。
This guy was known to the police.
这个人是警方认识的。
Known to the police like he had had previous incidents?
被警察知道，就像他以前发生过事件一样？
Yeah.
是的。
I really felt like I had inadvertently participated in this important salvation for this young girl that I didn't know.
我真的感觉自己无意中参与了这个对这个我不认识的年轻女孩的重要拯救。
So it was dramatic and entirely fabulous as an outcome.
所以这是一个戏剧性的、完全美妙的结果。
And after all that happened, did she remember or acknowledge any of these things from your past?
发生这一切之后，她还记得或承认过你过去的这些事情吗？
Nothing.
没有什么。
Not a single peep.
没有一个偷看。
It ended kind of like it began with, gee, everything's great now.
它的结束有点像开始时一样，天哪，现在一切都很好。
I'm so glad I did that.
我很高兴我这么做了。
And thanks for pushing me on that.
感谢您推动我做到这一点。
And everything's fine now.
现在一切都很好。
And have a good Thanksgiving, basically was how it ended.
祝感恩节愉快，基本上就是这样结束的。
And never heard from her since.
从那以后再也没有她的消息。
That was it.
就是这样。
That was our last contact.
那是我们最后一次联系。
How do you know that she didn't remember?
你怎么知道她不记得了？
What convinced you of that?
是什么让你相信这一点？
I think knowing her family.
我想了解她的家人。
There was no room in that family for this kind of thing.
那个家庭里容不下这种事。
I remember getting her chirpy emails and thinking, sheesh, she has totally become her mother, the world's most repressed happy person.
我记得收到她欢快的电子邮件，心想，天啊，她完全变成了她的母亲，世界上最压抑的快乐的人。
Yeah, I do think that she genuinely in her conscious mind did not remember.
是的，我确实认为她在意识中确实不记得了。
But I also think that the timing speaks to a totally different logic.
但我也认为这个时机说明了完全不同的逻辑。
So I think that some part of her knew it.
所以我认为她的某些部分知道这一点。
In one of the emails she mentions how strange that I should reach out to you at such a critical time.
在其中一封电子邮件中，她提到我在如此关键的时刻联系你是多么奇怪。
She's very smart.
她很聪明。
She knew that there was some link between our history and the timing.
她知道我们的历史和时机之间存在某种联系。
And I think in some sense she was sort of subconsciously counting on my doing something that she couldn't do.
我认为从某种意义上说，她潜意识里指望我做一些她做不到的事情。
God, people do so many things without knowing that they're doing them.
天啊，人们做了很多事情，却浑然不觉。
Yes.
是的。
There was like one person in the entire universe she knew that she could talk to about it who would get her to do the right thing.
她认识的整个宇宙中似乎有一个人可以与她谈论这件事，他会促使她做正确的事情。
And to be able to actually do something about it.
并且能够真正为此做点什么。
I feel like it resolved something for me, no question.
我觉得它为我解决了一些问题，毫无疑问。
Well, I understand.
嗯，我明白了。
It's funny because I feel like it resolves each of the things that had been so disturbing.
这很有趣，因为我觉得它解决了所有令人不安的事情。
It resolved the rift between you and her, which seems sort of horrible.
它解决了你和她之间的裂痕，这看起来有点可怕。
And then it lets you fix the situation for a girl who's sort of a stand-in for you at the same age as you were.
然后它可以让你为一个与你同龄的女孩解决这个问题，她是你的替身。
Yeah.
是的。
At that age, I was really devastated by her action.
在那个年纪，我真的被她的行为震惊了。
That was like another watershed during a really ugly period of my life.
这就像我生命中一段非常丑陋的时期的另一个分水岭。
And so to be able to not need to rub her nose in it as an adult, but to be able to resolve it in the way that we did, which is kind of like, I think, this charming lack of acknowledgment of what was actually going on, on both ends.
因此，作为一个成年人，我们不需要在其中揉鼻子，而是能够以我们所做的方式解决它，我认为，这有点像两端都对实际发生的事情缺乏认识。
I mean with hindsight now, I'm kind of putting it together and I feel like, oh, well, that's just completely OK.
我的意思是，事后看来，我把它放在一起，我觉得，哦，好吧，那完全没问题。
Neither of us needs to continue this relationship.
我们都不需要继续这种关系。
This relationship is done now, finally, 35 years later.
35 年后，这种关系终于结束了。
Well, our program was produced today by Jane Feltes and myself, with Alex Blumberg, Sean Cole, Sarah Koenig, Lisa Pollak, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
好吧，我们今天的节目是由 Jane Feltes 和我本人以及 Alex Blumberg、Sean Cole、Sarah Koenig、Lisa Pollak、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 制作的。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Production help from Aaron Scott.
亚伦·斯科特提供制作帮助。
Seth Lind is our production manager.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的生产经理。
Emily Condon is our office manager.
艾米丽·康登 (Emily Condon) 是我们的办公室经理。
Our music consultant is Jessica Hopper.
我们的音乐顾问是杰西卡·霍珀。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] WBEZ management oversight for our program by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia, who says that he doesn't care what we say about it him here at the end of the program every week for one important reason--
[鸣谢] 我们的老板 Torey Malatia 先生对我们的项目进行了 WBEZ 管理监督，他说他不在乎我们每周在项目结束时对他说些什么，原因有一个：
I'm not here to make friends.
我来这里不是为了交朋友的。
Ira Glass I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life .
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 我是艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass），下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。