387: Arms Trader (2009) - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #387 | August 7, 2009 387: Arms Trader (2009) Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 387 集 | 2009 年 8 月 7 日 387：军火交易者 (2009) 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass OK.
序言 艾拉·格拉斯 好的。
I think we all can agree, this sounds really, really bad.
我想我们都同意，这听起来真的非常糟糕。
Four guys from Newburgh, New York plant explosives at a synagogue and a Jewish community center in the Bronx.
来自纽约州纽堡的四名男子在布朗克斯区的一座犹太教堂和一个犹太社区中心放置炸药。
And they're arrested-- this is three months ago, they were arrested in May.
他们被捕了——这是三个月前的事，他们是在五月份被捕的。
They also, it turns out, had plans to fire Stinger surface-to-air missiles at military planes.
事实证明，他们还计划向军用飞机发射毒刺地对空导弹。
On the face of it, this case looks like a pretty shocking criminal act.
从表面上看，这起案件是一起相当触目惊心的犯罪行为。
Aziz Huq writes about the government's legal strategy in the war on terror.
阿齐兹·胡克 (Aziz Huq) 撰写了有关政府反恐战争法律策略的文章。
He's also the lawyer defending prisoners in a couple of these kinds of cases.
他还是几起此类案件中为囚犯辩护的律师。
And he says that, when you dig into the details of this particular case, it starts to look different.
他说，当你深入研究这个特殊案例的细节时，它开始看起来有所不同。
Basically, what you have here is the most recent in a series of cases in which a alleged terrorism conspiracy is initiated, and pushed along, by a government informant.
基本上，这是一系列由政府线人发起并推动的所谓恐怖主义阴谋案件中的最新一起。
An older man, somebody in his 40s, who's wealthy coming to a mosque--
一位四十多岁的老人，有钱人来到清真寺——
This is the informant?
这就是线人？
Aziz Huq This is an informant.
Aziz Huq 这是一名线人。
Coming to a mosque, finding people who are on the periphery of crime, and encouraging them and walking them toward somewhat an act of terrorist violence.
来到清真寺，找到处于犯罪边缘的人，鼓励他们并引导他们走向某种程度的恐怖暴力行为。
And so the informant in this case, when he came upon these men, did they have this plan to attack the synagogue?
那么本案的线人，当他遇到这些人时，他们是否有这个袭击犹太教堂的计划呢？
In other words, he wasn't stumbling upon an active terror cell?
也就是说，他不是偶然发现了一个活跃的恐怖组织？
Well, no. What we know is that, on the one hand, here you have a case where a group of people have done something, clearly reprehensible, clearly criminal.
嗯，不。我们所知道的是，一方面，这里有一群人做了一些明显应受谴责、明显犯罪的事情。
On the other hand, it's not clear whether absent this tremendous amount of money and time that is coming out of the government's coffers, there would have been any crime in the first place.
另一方面，尚不清楚如果没有从政府金库中拿出大量金钱和时间，是否会出现任何犯罪行为。
The plastic explosives used in the bombing were actually provided by the government, through the informant, and they were fakes.
爆炸事件中使用的塑料炸药实际上是政府通过线人提供的，而且是假货。
The Stinger missile came through the informant, and it was incapable of firing.
毒刺导弹穿过线人，无法发射。
And the informant also drove them to the bombing.
而线人也开车送他们去轰炸。
The perpetrators, meanwhile, are described in press accounts as sad sack petty criminals, whose previous crimes were snatching purses and trying to sell drugs to undercover cops, that kind of thing.
与此同时，媒体报道称肇事者是可悲的小罪犯，他们之前的罪行是抢钱包、试图向卧底警察出售毒品之类的。
One is described as being addicted to crack and coke for years.
据描述，其中一人多年来一直沉迷于可卡因和可乐。
Another took medication for schizophrenia and was reported to keep bottles of his own urine in his apartment.
另一个人服用了治疗精神分裂症的药物，据报道他在自己的公寓里放了几瓶自己的尿液。
None of them seem to have ties to any known terrorist organizations.
他们似乎都与任何已知的恐怖组织没有联系。
And this case is not unique.
而且这个案例并不是独一无二的。
It comes out of a strategy that our government developed after September 11.
它源于我国政府在 9 月 11 日之后制定的一项战略。
The government wanted, understandably, to stop terrorists before they attacked.
可以理解的是，政府希望在恐怖分子发动袭击之前阻止他们。
But, of course-- think about that for a second.
但是，当然——想一想。
What a difficult job.
多么困难的工作啊。
How can you find somebody and stop them and lock them up for something before they actually do it?
你怎样才能找到某人并阻止他们，并在他们真正做某事之前将他们关起来？
Well, what the government decided to do was go after people who seemed like they might someday get involved in a terrorist conspiracy.
好吧，政府决定做的是追捕那些似乎有一天可能卷入恐怖阴谋的人。
With any charges that it could make stick.
任何可能引起争议的指控。
At least it would get those people off the street.
至少它会让那些人离开街道。
And sometimes that meant sending in an informant, to nudge suspicious people into doing something, like what those men in Newburgh did.
有时这意味着派出一名线人，促使可疑的人做某事，就像纽堡的那些人所做的那样。
Well, today on our program we have the amazing story of one of the first cases after 9/11 that did this.
好吧，今天在我们的节目中，我们讲述了 9/11 事件后第一批发生这种情况的案例之一的惊人故事。
The justice department went after a guy who hadn't done anything wrong.
司法部门正在追捕一个没有做错任何事的人。
An informant helped him commit a crime, and they convicted him.
一名线人帮助他犯罪，他们将他定罪。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life , distributed by Public Radio International.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
This is a story that takes place in the world of international illegal arms sales.
这是一个发生在国际非法军售世界的故事。
The world of wiretaps, and informants, and prosecutors.
窃听器、线人和检察官的世界。
You are going to be hearing FBI surveillance tape.
你将会听到联邦调查局的监控录像。
You'll hear from the man who got put away, and from the US Attorney who led the team that put him away.
您会听到被逮捕的男子以及领导逮捕他的团队的美国检察官的声音。
Petra Bartosiewicz has the story, which we are devoting our whole show to today.
佩特拉·巴托谢维奇（Petra Bartosiewicz）讲述了这个故事，我们今天的整个节目都将讲述这个故事。
This originally ran on our program in 2005, right after the trial.
该程序最初于 2005 年试用后立即在我们的程序中运行。
What you're about to hear is a victory speech, almost four years in the making.
你将听到的是一场酝酿近四年的胜利演讲。
It's April 23 of this year, and the US Attorney is giving a press conference on the steps of the federal courthouse in Newark, announcing the conviction of Hemant Lakhani.
今年4月23日，美国检察官在纽瓦克联邦法院的台阶上召开新闻发布会，宣布赫曼特·拉卡尼(Hemant Lakhani)被定罪。
Good morning, my name is Christopher Christie.
早上好，我的名字是克里斯托弗·克里斯蒂。
I'M the United States Attorney for the district of New Jersey.
我是新泽西地区的美国检察官。
The jury has spoken, and Hemant Lakhani is not a women's clothing salesman.
陪审团已发言，赫曼特·拉卡尼 (Hemant Lakhani) 不是女装推销员。
He's been found guilty on all counts for lending material support, attempting to lend material support to terrorists, money laundering, smuggling, illegal brokering of weapons.
他因提供物质支持、试图向恐怖分子提供物质支持、洗钱、走私、非法武器经纪等罪名而被判有罪。
Today is a triumph for the Justice Department in the war against terror.
今天是司法部在反恐战争中取得的胜利。
I don't know that anyone can say that the state of New Jersey, and this country, is not a safer place without Hemant Lakhani trotting around the globe attempting to broker arms deals.
我不知道有人能说新泽西州和这个国家不是一个更安全的地方，如果没有赫曼特·拉卡尼在全球各地奔波试图斡旋军火交易。
Later the very same day, in the Passaic County lockup, sits the convicted terrorist sympathizer Hemant Lakhani.
同一天晚些时候，被定罪的恐怖分子同情者赫曼特·拉卡尼 (Hemant Lakhani) 就坐在帕赛克县看守所里。
[MAN CRYING] Petra Bartosiewicz Hemant Lakhani is a liar, a shameless braggart, a snob.
[男子哭泣]佩特拉·巴托谢维奇·赫曼特·拉卡尼 (Petra Bartosiewicz Hemant Lakhani) 是个骗子、无耻的吹牛者、势利小人。
He's amoral, selfish and he's greedy.
他不道德，自私，而且贪婪。
But the thing is, if you hear his story, it's hard to believe that on his own he would have ever succeeded in buying or delivering a missile to a terrorist group.
但问题是，如果你听过他的故事，你很难相信他能够成功地购买或向恐怖组织运送导弹。
In fact, he's an amazingly incompetent illegal arms trader.
事实上，他是一个极其无能的非法军火商。
And it's not at all clear that the world, or New Jersey, are any safer with him off the streets.
尚不清楚当他离开街道时，世界或新泽西是否会更安全。
How is Mrs. Lakhani?
拉卡尼夫人怎么样？
Petra Bartosiewicz She's OK.
佩特拉·巴托谢维奇 她没事。
I'm going to talk to her later.
我稍后再跟她谈谈。
That's me, comforting him.
是我在安慰他。
Telling him I'm sorry.
告诉他我很抱歉。
That his wife is going to be OK.
他的妻子会没事的。
The truth is, I'm not sure I'm exactly sorry.
事实是，我不确定我是否真的感到抱歉。
And I don't really know if his wife is going to be OK.
我真的不知道他的妻子是否会好起来。
But when an old man is sitting next to you, crying like that, reminiscing about their life together, what else are you going to say?
但当一个老人坐在你身边，哭成这样，回忆着他们在一起的生活，你还能说什么？
By putting me away for 100 years, or 5 years or 50 years, what do they think they are going to do?
把我关起来 100 年、5 年或 50 年，他们认为他们会做什么？
They think that terrorism is going to stop?
他们认为恐怖主义会停止吗？
I have nothing to do with terrorism.
我与恐怖主义无关。
I am not Muslim.
我不是穆斯林。
I am not a part of Al Qaeda, or Hamas or of Hamas or anything.
我不是基地组织、哈马斯或哈马斯或任何其他组织的成员。
And what do I want against America?
我想对抗美国什么？
What have I got against America?
我对美国有什么看法？
why?
为什么？
Hemant Lakhani is 70 years old.
赫曼特·拉卡尼 (Hemant Lakhani) 70 岁了。
He is Indian, but he's a British citizen who lived in London for decades.
他是印度人，但他是英国公民，在伦敦生活了几十年。
And all his life, he's made his living by being a salesman of one sort or another.
他一生都靠做某种推销员谋生。
Clothing, rice, oil, armored personnel carriers-- more on that later-- and lately, it seems, an illegal shoulder fired missile.
服装、大米、石油、装甲运兵车——稍后会详细介绍——最近似乎还有非法肩扛式导弹。
So how did a salesman, a guy with no criminal history whatsoever, become a target in the war on terror?
那么，一个没有任何犯罪记录的推销员是如何成为反恐战争的目标的呢？
Bad timing has a lot to do with it.
糟糕的时机有很大关系。
As it happened, the US Attorney who sent him to prison, Christopher Christie, was nominated to his job by President Bush on September 10, 2001.
碰巧的是，将他送进监狱的美国检察官克里斯托弗·克里斯蒂 (Christopher Christie) 于 2001 年 9 月 10 日被布什总统提名担任该职务。
His office has this huge conference room with giant windows facing lower Manhattan.
他的办公室有一个巨大的会议室，巨大的窗户面向曼哈顿下城。
We're sitting in my conference room, doing this interview, you look out those windows, you have an unobstructed view of Manhattan.
我们坐在我的会议室里进行这次采访，从窗户往外看，曼哈顿的景色一览无余。
And people sat in this conference room and watched both buildings collapse.
人们坐在这个会议室里，看着两座建筑倒塌。
And so the atmosphere, when I came in a few months later, after my confirmation was still one of real crisis and of real sadness.
因此，几个月后，当我进来时，在我得到确认后，气氛仍然是一种真正的危机和真正的悲伤。
And it was enormously stressful.
这压力很大。
And, I can tell you, that in my first six months here, I was confronted on a weekly basis with a widow or a child who had lost their family.
而且，我可以告诉你，在我来这里的头六个月里，我每周都会遇到失去家人的寡妇或孩子。
And in my own parish at home we lost two people.
在我家的教区，我们失去了两个人。
In my children's school, there were three parents who were killed.
在我孩子的学校里，有三位家长被杀。
And they look to you now.
他们现在就指望你了。
You're the US Attorney, and they look to you to say, are we safe?
你是美国检察官，他们指望你说，我们安全吗？
And so that was the atmosphere when you walked in.
这就是你走进来时的气氛。
And that was the atmosphere under which Lakhani started.
拉卡尼就是在这样的氛围下开始创业的。
You've got to place everything that happens in the early parts of Lakhani in that context.
你必须将拉卡尼早期发生的一切都放在这样的背景下。
That we were intent as prosecutors-- and I believe the agents felt this way too-- making sure it wasn't going to happen again.
作为检察官，我们一心一意——我相信特工们也有这种感觉——确保这种情况不会再次发生。
We clearly now had a brand new mandate from the President and the Attorney General.
显然，我们现在得到了总统和司法部长的全新授权。
And the mandate was prevent a terrorist attack.
任务是防止恐怖袭击。
Not solve it after it happens, but preventive it.
不是事后解决，而是预防。
And I don't think people still understand what a sea change that was for federal law enforcement in this country.
我认为人们仍然不明白这个国家的联邦执法部门发生了多大的变化。
So it's understandable that Christie's interest was piqued when he heard a report from an informant about Hemant Lakhani his very first week on the job.
因此，当克里斯蒂上任第一周听到线人关于赫曼特·拉卡尼的报道时，他的兴趣就被激起了，这是可以理解的。
It was in a normal, weekly terrorism briefing on the fact that we had this informant who was telling us that there was someone who approached him regarding his willingness to broker missile sales.
这是在一次正常的每周恐怖主义简报中，我们有一位线人告诉我们，有人与他接洽，询问他是否愿意中介导弹销售。
That informant is the next important piece of this story.
该线人是这个故事的下一个重要部分。
To explain his part in it, we actually have to go back a couple decades, to Lahore, Pakistan.
为了解释他在其中所扮演的角色，我们实际上必须回到几十年前，巴基斯坦的拉合尔。
To an American Drug Enforcement Administration agent named Charles Lee.
致美国缉毒局特工查尔斯·李。
Lee was a former seminarian who, sitting on the toilet one day at school, happened to pick up a Reader's Digest and open it to a New York cop story called "Merchants of Heroin." He was so taken with the story that he quit the seminary the very next day and became a federal agent.
李曾是一名神学院学生，有一天，他在学校的厕所里，偶然拿起一本《读者文摘》，打开其中一篇名为《海洛因商人》的纽约警察故事。他对这个故事非常着迷，第二天就从神学院退学，成为一名联邦特工。
He ended up stationed in Lahore.
他最终驻扎在拉合尔。
One day, a contact brought this guy to his office, named Habib, who said he wanted to work for the US government on drug cases
有一天，一位联系人将这个名叫哈比卜的人带到了他的办公室，他说他想为美国政府处理毒品案件
He talked about some people that we were quite interested in.
他谈到了一些我们很感兴趣的人。
I asked him about a particular individual up in northwest Frontier, that we'd had no success-- he was wanted in, I believe, at least two or three judicial districts.
我向他询问了西北边境某个特定人物的情况，我们没有成功——我相信，至少有两三个司法区对他进行了通缉。
And he was already indicted.
而且他已经被起诉了。
All we needed to do was get him out.
我们需要做的就是把他救出来。
But, you couldn't even get the army to go after these people up there.
但是，你甚至无法让军队去追捕那里的这些人。
So, Habib said that he could get this person out.
于是，哈比卜说他可以把这个人救出来。
I thought, well, nothing could be a better acid test then to try that with Habib to begin with.
我想，好吧，没有什么比从哈比卜开始进行测试更好的了。
Because if he could do that, he must be able to do just about anything.
因为如果他能做到这一点，他就一定能够做任何事情。
And here Habib comes along, and in no time flat, delivered this guy right out.
哈比卜出现了，很快就把这个家伙救了出来。
Kaboom.
轰隆隆。
We had him and well, it made a believer out of all of us.
我们拥有了他，这让我们所有人都成为了他的信徒。
This guy obviously could do it.
这家伙显然可以做到。
So that started it.
于是就开始了。
So everybody loved Habib then.
所以当时每个人都喜欢哈比卜。
Habib turned out to be a great informant.
事实证明，哈比卜是一位出色的线人。
For about a year and a half, he and Lee made case after case.
在大约一年半的时间里，他和李处理了一个又一个案件。
Then, one day, Habib's cover was suddenly blown.
然后，有一天，哈比卜的身份突然被揭穿。
A drug dealer tried to kill him.
一名毒贩试图杀死他。
And Lee swooped in to save him.
李猛扑过去救了他。
Within 24 hours, Habib and his family were in the US, but now he had no job and no support.
24小时之内，哈比卜和他的家人就到达了美国，但现在他没有工作，也没有支持。
So after awhile, he tracked down Lee, who, by then, had returned to the US and asked him if he could do DEA cases in the states.
于是过了一段时间，他找到了当时已经回到美国的Lee，询问他是否可以在美国做缉毒局的案件。
And they started working together again on drug cases.
他们再次开始合作处理毒品案件。
Lee also recommended him to the FBI, to use an informant on terrorism cases.
李还向联邦调查局推荐他，利用一名线人来调查恐怖主义案件。
But Lee says Habib wasn't on top of his game.
但李说哈比卜并没有达到最佳状态。
And that came to light during one investigation, where Habib tried to incriminate a guy who, in Lee's words, was not a doper, period.
这在一次调查中曝光，哈比卜试图指控一名用李的话来说不是吸毒者的人。
Lee couldn't figure out what Habib's motive was for setting the guy up.
李不明白哈比卜陷害这家伙的动机是什么。
When that happens, it calls into question this guy's abilities and his veracity.
当这种情况发生时，人们就会质疑这个人的能力和他的真实性。
It calls everything into question.
它让一切都受到质疑。
Asking him about it, he didn't have the answers.
问他这个问题，他也没有答案。
And when you don't have the answers in this game, that's good night.
当你在这个游戏中没有答案时，那就晚安了。
So rather than trying to second guess a bunch of that, you just close this guy out.
因此，与其试图对这些进行二次猜测，不如直接将这个人排除在外。
That's the end of him.
这就是他的结局。
Unreliable.
不可靠。
There were other disappointments.
还有其他令人失望的事情。
Lee started a rice importing business with Habib.
李与哈比卜一起创办了大米进口业务。
He thought it would help get Habib on his feet, permanently.
他认为这将有助于哈比卜永久地站起来。
But pretty soon he found out Habib had ripped him off.
但很快他就发现哈比卜欺骗了他。
He'd sold the same shipment twice, and Lee had to make good on $25,000 he'd stolen from a customer.
同一批货物他已售出两次，李必须偿还从一位顾客那里偷来的 25,000 美元。
And then he found out Habib had ripped off other people too.
然后他发现哈比卜也欺骗了其他人。
Had threatened people, said he could get people killed.
曾威胁人们，说他可以杀人。
Lee was floored.
李被击倒了。
He cut off Habib completely.
他彻底切断了哈比卜的联系。
He also typed up a nine-page letter about what he'd learned, and delivered it to Habib's FBI handler.
他还打印了一封长达九页的信，讲述了他所了解到的情况，并将其交给了哈比卜的联邦调查局负责人。
Sometime after that the FBI deactivated Habib as one of its informants.
此后不久，联邦调查局取消了哈比卜作为线人之一的身份。
But then, after 9/11, things changed at the FBI.
但9/11之后，联邦调查局的情况发生了变化。
Though the agency had been warned how unreliable Habib could be, his experience and language skills suddenly made him a hot property, and different FBI bureaus were fighting over him.
尽管该机构曾被警告哈比卜是多么不可靠，但他的经验和语言能力突然使他成为热门人物，联邦调查局的不同部门都在争夺他。
He ended up in the Newark bureau, which is also the jurisdiction of US Attorney Chris Christie.
他最终进入了纽瓦克分局，该分局也是美国检察官克里斯克里斯蒂的管辖范围。
It's Habib who first spotted Hemant Lakhani and brought him to the attention of the FBI.
哈比卜最先发现了赫曼特·拉卡尼，并引起了联邦调查局的注意。
When Lee heard about the case, he was stunned that the FBI was talking to Habib at all.
当李听说这个案子时，他惊讶地发现联邦调查局竟然在与哈比卜交谈。
I don't know.
我不知道。
It went through my mind, I wonder how they can justify doing that?
我脑子里闪过这个念头，我想知道他们如何证明这样做是合理的？
I wondered if it was a legit case.
我想知道这是否是一个合法的案例。
I'm sure these terrorism cases are exceedingly difficult to make.
我确信这些恐怖主义案件很难侦破。
And exceedingly difficult to break into, and that therein lies the temptation to reactivate a guy like Habib.
而且非常难以闯入，这其中就存在着重新激活像哈比卜这样的人的诱惑。
Maybe they took him out and dusted him off and put him back to work.
也许他们把他带出去，掸掉身上的灰尘，然后让他回去工作。
So here's how Habib ended up at the center of one of the biggest post 9/11 terrorism cases.
这就是哈比卜如何成为 9/11 事件后最大的恐怖主义案件之一的中心人物。
Habib knew an Indian gangster, a suspected terrorist named Abdul Kayum.
哈比卜认识一名印度黑帮，一名恐怖分子嫌疑人，名叫阿卜杜勒·卡尤姆。
Kayum also knew Lakhani.
卡尤姆也认识拉卡尼。
Here's US attorney Chris Christie.
请听美国律师克里斯·克里斯蒂的报道。
The ties that Lakhani was claiming to have to us, to the terrorist whose last was Kayum was one that was of particular interest to us.
拉卡尼声称与我们、与最后是卡尤姆的恐怖分子的关系是我们特别感兴趣的。
The fact that Kayum even knew who Lakhani was.
事实上，卡尤姆甚至知道拉卡尼是谁。
You know, I don't know what a women's clothing salesman is doing being associated with someone like Kayum.
你知道，我不知道女装推销员与 Kayum 这样的人有什么关系。
A word here about Abdul Kayum.
关于阿卜杜勒·卡尤姆（Abdul Kayum）的事。
He's suspected of a series of bomb attacks in Bombay in 1993.
他涉嫌参与 1993 年孟买的一系列炸弹袭击事件。
Kayum's name is on terrorist watch lists around the world.
卡尤姆的名字出现在世界各地的恐怖分子观察名单上。
And Lakhani's association with him is one of the most incriminating things about this case.
拉卡尼与他的关系是本案中最有罪的事情之一。
And something Lakhani has never been able to explain away.
拉卡尼始终无法解释这一点。
What we do know is that in the fall of 2001, Kayum was sitting in Lakhani's hotel room in Dubai, a hotel they both regularly stayed at, Lakhani says, talking business.
我们所知道的是，2001 年秋天，Kayum 坐在拉卡尼位于迪拜的酒店房间里谈论生意，拉卡尼说，这是他们俩经常住的酒店。
At the time, Lakhani's career was in something of a slump.
当时，拉卡尼的职业生涯陷入低谷。
He had been a successful clothing importer, but when that fell apart in the early 1980s, he went into other stuff.
他曾是一家成功的服装进口商，但在 20 世纪 80 年代初破产后，他开始从事其他业务。
He bought a rice business, and later a small Indian airline, but those went under after a while too.
他买了一家大米公司，后来又买了一家小型印度航空公司，但不久之后这些公司也破产了。
He tried to recoup his losses by brokering various other deals.
他试图通过促成其他各种交易来弥补损失。
His latest one was an oil refinery deal.
他最近的一笔交易是一项炼油厂交易。
At the moment when he was sitting in the hotel room with Kayum, he was looking for oil investors.
当他和卡尤姆坐在酒店房间里的那一刻，他正在寻找石油投资者。
At some point Kayum gets a call on his cell phone from Habib, the informant, who Kayum knows only as a rich businessman.
某个时候，卡尤姆接到了线人哈比卜打来的电话，而卡尤姆只知道哈比卜是一位富商。
Just to clear up a confusing thing about the tape you're about to hear, Habib's full name is Mohamed Habib Rahman, and the government refers to him as Rahman.
为了澄清你将要听到的录音带中的一个令人困惑的事情，哈比卜的全名是穆罕默德·哈比卜·拉赫曼，政府称他为拉赫曼。
But his nickname is Haji, a term of respect for a Muslim who has made the Haj, the pilgrim's trip to Mecca.
但他的昵称是“哈吉”，这是对参加麦加朝圣之旅的穆斯林的尊重。
So other people call him Haji.
所以其他人都叫他哈吉。
So what happened was is that Kayum said that Haji is a very powerful man in America.
所发生的事情是，卡尤姆说哈吉在美国是一个非常有权势的人。
He's worth himself but a few hundred million dollars.
他的身价不过几亿美元。
And maybe he can help you.
也许他可以帮助你。
Speak to him.
和他说话。
So I say, oh, hi, Mr. Haji, hello.
所以我说，哦，嗨，哈吉先生，你好。
And then he tells me that, I believe that you are looking for a financier for a refinery project.
然后他告诉我，我相信您正在为炼油厂项目寻找融资者。
So I thought he must be a powerful man.
所以我想他一定是个很有实力的人。
Of course, he was nothing of the sort.
当然，他不是这样的人。
At this point, Rahman was making his living as an FBI informant, and had actually racked up a string of unpaid debts.
此时，拉赫曼以联邦调查局线人的身份谋生，实际上已经欠下了一系列未偿还的债务。
But Lakhani knew none of this.
但拉卡尼对此一无所知。
So Rahman starts to feel Lakhani out, to see if he could be of interest to the FBI.
于是拉赫曼开始试探拉卡尼，看看联邦调查局是否会对他感兴趣。
He calls him over several months.
他几个月来一直给他打电话。
Henry Klingeman, Lakhani's defense attorney, says at this point, the informant saw Lakhani as his meal ticket.
拉卡尼的辩护律师亨利·克林格曼 (Henry Klingeman) 表示，此时，线人将拉卡尼视为他的餐券。
Meal ticket.
餐票。
Dupe.
欺骗。
Patsy.
帕齐。
Rahman is everything Lakhani is not.
拉赫曼是拉哈尼所不具备的一切。
He's smart, he's savvy.
他很聪明，他很精明。
When Rahman reports back to the FBI, the information looks incredibly promising.
当拉赫曼向联邦调查局报告时，这些信息看起来非常有希望。
He describes Lakhani as a major weapons trafficker to terrorist groups in at least five countries.
他将拉卡尼描述为至少五个国家恐怖组织的主要武器贩运者。
Again, Henry Klingeman.
又是亨利·克林格曼。
I'm looking at a set of handwritten notes prepared by the FBI agent who handled the informant.
我正在查看处理该线人的联邦调查局特工准备的一组手写笔记。
The notes are dated December 19, 2001, and they include his summary of what the informant said to him about Lakhani.
这些笔记的日期为 2001 年 12 月 19 日，其中包括他对线人向他讲述的有关拉卡尼的情况的总结。
Specifically that Lakhani was a main weapons trafficker, tied to Pakistani Indian criminals, Sri Lankan terrorists, Nepal and United Arab Emirates terrorists.
具体来说，拉卡尼是一名主要武器贩运者，与巴基斯坦印度犯罪分子、斯里兰卡恐怖分子、尼泊尔和阿拉伯联合酋长国恐怖分子有联系。
That Lakhani is a broker of crude oil from Iraq.
拉卡尼是伊拉克原油经纪人。
And, again, this was during the time of the embargo.
而且，这还是在禁运期间。
Saddam Hussein was still in power and Iraqi oil was embargoed.
萨达姆·侯赛因仍在掌权，伊拉克石油受到禁运。
That Lakhani was supplying weapons to the Mujahideen, the holy warriors in Kashmir.
拉卡尼正在向克什米尔的圣战者圣战者提供武器。
That he was best friends with the Ukrainian prime minister, no name given.
他是乌克兰总理最好的朋友，但没有透露姓名。
And that he was worth $300 to $400 million, meaning Lakhani.
他的身价为 300 至 4 亿美元，指的是拉卡尼。
Lakhani, who lives in a semi-detached home in a London suburb, two old cars in the garage.
拉卡尼住在伦敦郊区的一栋半独立式住宅里，车库里停着两辆旧车。
With respect to what weapons Lakhani claimed he could sell, the agent's notes indicate that the informant told the agents that Lakhani could sell large-scale weapons, including missiles, anti-aircraft guns, any type of weapons.
至于拉卡尼声称他可以出售哪些武器，特工的笔记显示，线人告诉特工，拉卡尼可以出售大型武器，包括导弹、高射炮和任何类型的武器。
On January 17, 2002, Lakhani and Rahman finally meet for the first time in Newark.
2002 年 1 月 17 日，拉哈尼和拉赫曼终于在纽瓦克第一次见面。
Now the investigation kicks into gear.
现在调查正式启动。
The government surveillance tapes are rolling.
政府的监控录像正在滚动。
They show grainy black and white images of Lakhani, sitting across a large table from Rahman.
它们展示了拉赫尼与拉赫曼坐在一张大桌子对面的颗粒状黑白图像。
They're in a room at the Gateway Hilton, overlooking Newark airport.
他们在 Gateway Hilton 酒店的一个房间里，俯瞰着纽瓦克机场。
And clearly, Rahman is now trying to initiate a deal with Lakhani.
显然，拉赫曼现在正试图与拉哈尼达成协议。
And just as clearly, Lakhani is eager to oblige.
同样明显的是，拉卡尼也很乐意效劳。
The two men speak in Urdu and Hindi, and the translation sounds sort of like English Language Instructional videos.
这两个人用乌尔都语和印地语交谈，翻译听起来有点像英语教学视频。
Rahman's translator is the first voice you'll hear.
拉赫曼的翻译是您听到的第一个声音。
Actually, the main thing is- Lahkani's Translator You mean the guns for fighting?
其实最主要的是—— 拉卡尼的翻译 你是说打仗用的枪吗？
Yes, the guns, and the anti-aircraft guns.
是的，枪，还有高射炮。
Yes, they are available.
是的，它们可用。
Rahman's Translator Do you have something latest?
拉赫曼的翻译 你有最新的东西吗？
Latest missiles?
最新的导弹？
Something sinister, just like Stinger, with an effective range of at least 15,000 feet?
有什么险恶的东西，就像 Stinger 一样，有效射程至少有 15,000 英尺？
Yes, available.
是的，可用。
Rahman's Translator Give me the details about that one.
拉赫曼的翻译 请告诉我有关那个翻译的详细信息。
The main thing is the anti-aircraft gun.
最主要的是高射炮。
Yes, the anti-aircraft gun, and anything else you think is important.
是的，高射炮，以及其他任何你认为重要的东西。
Ammo?
弹药？
In ammo, I can give you whatever you want.
在弹药方面，你想要什么我都可以给你。
Anything you ask for.
你有什么要求。
Every gun and everything.
每把枪和一切。
As much as you want.
你想要多少就多少。
Yes, they are expert in this.
是的，他们是这方面的专家。
Rahman's Translator Good.
拉赫曼的翻译很好。
I mean this is a guy who promised to sell submarines to the informant, if the informant wanted them.
我的意思是，这个人承诺如果线人想要的话，就向线人出售潜艇。
That's the kind of thing that ought to make an FBI agent listing to the conversation just take his headphones off and shake his head.
这种事情应该会让参与谈话的联邦调查局特工摘下耳机并摇头。
Why are we doing this?
我们为什么要这样做？
This guy is promising to sell submarines.
这家伙承诺出售潜艇。
It's preposterous.
这太荒谬了。
I mean, the one thing he didn't offer was an aircraft carrier, or a space shuttle, but if he had asked them for one, I'm sure he could tell you the Lakhani could get you both.
我的意思是，他没有提供的一件事是一艘航空母舰或一架航天飞机，但如果他向他们要一个，我相信他可以告诉你拉卡尼可以得到你们两个。
Lakhani supposedly told the informant that he, meaning Lakhani, has people in the US government.
据称，拉卡尼告诉线人，他（指的是拉卡尼）在美国政府中有人。
And next to that it says, "obtains weapons, NVG." Which, as we've said, is night vision goggles.
旁边写着：“获得武器，NVG。”正如我们所说，这是夜视镜。
So the obvious implication is that Lakhani has contacts within our own government from whom he obtains weapons, including night vision goggles.
因此，明显的含义是拉卡尼在我国政府内部有联系，他从这些人那里获得武器，包括夜视镜。
And also get me order for night vision goggles.
还帮我订购夜视镜。
What is that?
那是什么？
Rahman's Translator That's something for seeing at night.
拉赫曼的翻译 这是晚上看的东西。
Are they buying it?
他们买吗？
Rahman's Translator Yes, they need a lot of them.
拉赫曼的翻译是的，他们需要很多。
It is their demand.
这是他们的要求。
What, sunglasses?
什么，太阳镜？
Henry Klingeman It is just evident that he has no idea what this guy is talking about.
亨利·克林格曼 很明显，他不知道这个家伙在说什么。
And they had a similar conversation about plutonium.
他们就钚进行了类似的对话。
Supposedly Lakhani bragged to the informant that he could get plutonium, in 22 pound bottles.
据说拉卡尼向线人吹嘘说他可以获得钚，装在 22 磅的瓶子里。
Now how he came up with that increment, one can only imagine.
现在他是如何想出这个增量的，人们只能想象。
But, in any event, the informant mentions PLU 135, which is plutonium.
但无论如何，线人提到了 PLU 135，即钚。
And, again, Lakhani betrays an absolute ignorance about what this guy is talking about.
拉卡尼再次暴露出他对这个人在说什么一无所知。
None of the claims that Rahman initially made about Lakhani checked out.
拉赫曼最初对拉哈尼提出的所有说法都没有得到证实。
Not one of them.
没有之一。
Not that supposed arms deals, or the nuclear material, or the personal wealth.
不是所谓的军火交易、核材料或个人财富。
Though it's very possible that the source of this bad information was Lakhani himself.
尽管这些不良信息的来源很可能是拉卡尼本人。
Klingeman describes his client as a name dropper, who associated himself with real events, and real people, but actually had nothing to do with them.
克林格曼将他的客户描述为一个擅自取名的人，他将自己与真实的事件和真实的人联系起来，但实际上与他们无关。
To be sure, his bragging is boundless.
可以肯定的是，他的吹牛是无止境的。
Here's a small sample taken, mind you, from just one conversation.
请注意，这是从一次谈话中抽取的一个小样本。
The richest man in London is Indian [UNINTELLIGIBLE].
伦敦首富是印度人[难以辨认]。
I was the richest man.
我是最富有的人。
This was Lakhani in those days.
这就是当时的拉卡尼。
When I used to get down at the airport, there was a red carpet for Lakhani.
当我过去到达机场时，拉卡尼有一条红地毯。
Red carpet.
红地毯。
Not blue or green.
不是蓝色或绿色。
A red carpet was given to me.
给我铺了红地毯。
Why?
为什么？
Because I was the most important man.
因为我是最重要的人。
I became very friendly with the royal family.
我与王室成员变得非常友好。
And it's a fact.
这是事实。
And they used to love me.
他们曾经爱过我。
[UNINTELLIGIBLE] is an [INAUDIBLE], you know that.
[听不清] 是[听不清]，你知道的。
I know him very well.
我很了解他。
Believe me.
相信我。
He claimed to have lunch with Tony Blair at 10 Downing Street.
他声称与托尼·布莱尔在唐宁街 10 号共进午餐。
Said he knew Libyan dictator Moammar Gaddafi, former Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto.
说他认识利比亚独裁者卡扎菲、巴基斯坦前总理贝娜齐尔·布托。
The Prime Minister of Sri lanka, the President of Congo.
斯里兰卡总理、刚果总统。
When I first visited him in prison, I asked if he really knew all these people.
当我第一次去监狱探望他时，我问他是否真的认识所有这些人。
He told me, you want to meet Tony Blair?
他告诉我，你想见托尼·布莱尔吗？
Give me 48 hours and he'll be in your house.
给我 48 小时，他就会来你家。
So it's quite possible that Lakhani lied to Rahman about who he was.
因此，拉赫尼很可能对拉赫曼谎报了自己的身份。
Or maybe Rahman exaggerated.
或者也许拉赫曼夸大了。
Understandably, this isn't something the government wants to contemplate.
可以理解的是，这不是政府想要考虑的事情。
Here's US attorney Chris Christie.
请听美国律师克里斯·克里斯蒂的报道。
Did you ever feel, at any point in the investigation, that he oversold Lakhani even a little bit, on some of those things that didn't seem to pan out.
在调查过程中的任何时候，你有没有感觉到他在一些似乎没有成功的事情上稍微夸大了拉卡尼的水平。
Like his $300 to $400 million net worth.
比如他 300 到 4 亿美元的净资产。
That he was a major arms trafficker in numerous countries.
他是许多国家的主要军火贩运者。
You know, listen, I'm not going to sit around and second guess it.
你知道，听着，我不会坐以待毙。
What was done, was done, and I think, ultimately, the jury decided that question.
已经做了什么，我认为陪审团最终决定了这个问题。
For Christie, it was enough that Lakhani knew Kayum, and that he had done at least one arms deal before he met the informant.
对于克里斯蒂来说，拉卡尼认识卡尤姆就足够了，而且他在遇到线人之前至少做过一笔军火交易。
That was enough experience in the arms trade to be suspicious.
军火贸易方面的经验足以令人怀疑。
Like if you came to me today, Petra, and said to me, Chris, get me a brochure on the Stinger missile, and see if you can fax it to me.
就像佩特拉，如果你今天来找我，对我说，克里斯，给我一本关于毒刺导弹的小册子，看看是否可以传真给我。
Just because I'm doing this program, and if you could get it for me.
只是因为我正在做这个程序，如果你能为我得到它。
You know, I wouldn't know the first place to start.
你知道，我不知道从哪里开始。
Where do I get a brochure on a Stinger missile?
在哪里可以获得有关毒刺导弹的手册？
Or on a Igla missile?
或者是 Igla 导弹？
I would have no idea where to start.
我不知道从哪里开始。
I don't know if you'd have an idea of where to start.
我不知道你是否知道从哪里开始。
Lakhani knew.
拉卡尼知道。
Actually, if you Google the word "stinger, missile and brochure" you can find a Stinger sales brochure in a few seconds.
事实上，如果你用谷歌搜索“毒刺、导弹和宣传册”这个词，几秒钟之内你就可以找到毒刺销售手册。
And the one arms deal the government knew Lakhani was part of went like this.
政府知道拉卡尼参与的一项军火交易是这样的。
As an assistant to another broker, Lakhani had helped arrange the sale of some armored personnel carriers to Angola, for use by the president of Angola.
作为另一位经纪人的助理，拉卡尼曾帮助安排向安哥拉出售一些装甲运兵车，供安哥拉总统使用。
Proper paperwork was filed with various governments.
向各国政府提交了适当的文件。
Everything was aboveboard.
一切都是光明正大的。
It was all perfectly legal.
这一切都是完全合法的。
If you push Christie, he'll admit that at the end of the day, Lakhani wasn't exactly a criminal mastermind, or even a very good salesman.
如果你逼克里斯蒂，他最终会承认拉卡尼并不是一个犯罪策划者，甚至不是一个非常好的推销员。
But he was the suspect they had.
但他是他们的嫌疑人。
They couldn't predict where the next attack on America might come from.
他们无法预测对美国的下一次攻击可能来自哪里。
So they'd investigate Lakhani as aggressively as possible, to see where he might lead them, and who he might lead them to.
因此，他们会尽可能积极地调查拉卡尼，看看他可能会带他们去哪里，以及他可能会带他们去找谁。
So they begin to ratchet up the case.
因此他们开始加大力度处理案件。
The informant Rahman tells Lakhani he wants to order 200 missiles.
线人拉赫曼告诉拉哈尼他想订购 200 枚导弹。
But first Lakhani has to prove he can deliver.
但首先拉卡尼必须证明他能够兑现承诺。
He needs to get just one, a sample, and he needs to ship it to Newark.
他只需要得到一个样品，然后他需要将其运送到纽瓦克。
There's talk of hundreds of thousands in profits, and a half million dollar bonus.
据说有数十万的利润和五十万美元的奖金。
Then Rahman tells Lakhani that he represents a Somali terrorist group called the Ogaden Liberation Front.
然后拉赫曼告诉拉哈尼，他代表一个名为欧加登解放阵线的索马里恐怖组织。
A real organization, by the way, but not a terrorist one.
顺便说一句，这是一个真正的组织，但不是恐怖组织。
And at a certain point well into the deal, Rahman tells him the group wants to start Jihad in America, and throws in a reference to Al Qaeda for good measure.
在协议达成的某个时刻，拉赫曼告诉他，该组织希望在美国发起圣战，并提到了基地组织。
Lakhani, usually talkative on any subject, seems to have no reaction to this news.
平时对任何话题都健谈的拉卡尼似乎对这个消息没有任何反应。
Boss, you have no idea how much money there is in this business, Rahman says.
拉赫曼说，老板，你不知道这个生意能赚多少钱。
If you ask Lakhani why he did it, he can't really explain.
如果你问拉卡尼为什么这么做，他也无法解释。
He says it wasn't ideological, or political, and he claims he didn't need the money.
他说这与意识形态或政治无关，并且他声称他不需要这笔钱。
The best answer he came up with when my producer Sarah Koenig and I interviewed him was, well, Voodoo.
当我和我的制片人莎拉·科尼格采访他时，他想出的最好答案是，嗯，Voodoo。
And a lot of long distance phone calls.
还有很多长途电话。
By the second meeting, you had already agreed to try to get this stuff for him.
在第二次见面时，你已经同意尝试为他获取这些东西。
Why did you do that?
你为什么这么做？
To say it's a mistake-- it seems to be understating the activity.
说这是一个错误——似乎低估了这项活动。
It's more than a mistake.
这不仅仅是一个错误。
It's a serious decision to enter into something that's potentially--
这是一个严肃的决定，要做一些有潜力的事情——
You are interrupting me.
你在打扰我。
You were interrupting me.
你打扰了我。
Why--
为什么——
It's a legitimate question.
这是一个合理的问题。
There's a guy who you have some doubts about, he's asking you for things that you know are illegal, basically.
有一个人让你有些怀疑，他向你索要一些你知道基本上是非法的事情。
You have other priorities with your oil deal, you are trying to get financing.
你的石油交易还有其他优先事项，你正在努力获得融资。
Why do you bother to go forward with this guy?
你何必跟这个人继续往前走呢？
Well, it happened.
好吧，它发生了。
He induced me.
他诱导了我。
You can call it inducing.
你可以称之为诱导。
He induced me, that's all I can tell you.
他诱导了我，这就是我能告诉你的。
I have no other reply.
我没有其他答复。
What does that mean exactly, to you?
这对你来说到底意味着什么？
How did he get to you?
他是怎么找到你的？
You were very worldly, you know many people, you've done these deals before.
你很世故，你认识很多人，你以前也做过这些交易。
How is it that he is able to convince you?
他怎么能说服你呢？
He induced me, that's all I can tell you, he induced me.
他诱导了我，这就是我能告诉你的，他诱导了我。
Nothing more.
而已。
I was not greedy.
我并不贪心。
I was not looking for extra money or big money or small money, because money is no object in my life.
我不是在寻找额外的钱或大钱或小钱，因为钱不是我生活的目标。
But he induced me.
但他诱导了我。
Somehow he made some kind of magic on me, and I could not say no. Or whatever happened, I don't know.
不知怎的，他对我施了某种魔法，我无法拒绝。或者发生了什么，我不知道。
And he used to bother me like nobody's business.
他曾经像别人一样打扰我。
He would bother me 10 times a day.
他一天会骚扰我10次。
Sometimes, I can show you the transcript.
有时，我可以给你看文字记录。
Call number one, call number two, call number three, call number four, call number five.
呼叫号一、呼叫号二、呼叫号三、呼叫号四、呼叫号五。
Five past 10, 5:11, 5:20.
十点过五、五点十一分、五点二十分。
Three hundred telephone calls he has made.
他已经打了三百个电话。
What about these?
这些呢？
What about that?
那又怎样呢？
He just annoyed you into it?
他只是惹你生气了？
Hemant Lakhani Not annoyed, but, you know, he would not leave me alone.
Hemant Lakhani 并不生气，但是，你知道，他不会丢下我一个人。
Did you ever get suspicious that he was so persistent?
你有没有怀疑过他如此执着？
Yes.
是的。
Petra Bartosiewicz Did you want him to like you?
Petra Bartosiewicz 你想让他喜欢你吗？
Well, I don't think anybody who dislikes me, in my life.
好吧，我认为在我的生活中没有人不喜欢我。
Nobody dislikes me.
没有人不喜欢我。
Klingeman, his attorney, says Lakhani didn't seem at all bothered by the phone calls and attention.
他的律师克林格曼表示，拉卡尼似乎根本没有被电话和关注所困扰。
In fact, he says, his reaction was just the opposite.
事实上，他说，他的反应恰恰相反。
Fundamentally, what drove him was a desire to be part of something.
从根本上来说，驱动他的动力是渴望成为某件事的一部分。
He had failed in business.
他生意失败了。
And, to a great extent, he had failed in life.
而且，在很大程度上，他的人生是失败的。
He's an old man.
他是个老人了。
And this was his chance to be part of something.
这是他参与某件事的机会。
He enjoyed the flattery, and the attention of the informant.
他喜欢听人的奉承，也喜欢线人的关注。
And he enjoyed the phone calls.
他很喜欢打电话。
He enjoyed the globe trotting.
他喜欢环游世界。
And I think that, more than anything else, is what drove him.
我认为这才是驱动他前进的最重要因素。
Here was someone coming the Mr. Lakhani, a sad-sack Willy Loman of a character, and saying, you're a big boss.
有人像拉卡尼先生一样走过来，他是一个悲伤的威利·洛曼，他说，你是个大老板。
You're a big man.
你是个大男人了。
You have connections.
你们有联系。
Help me.
帮我。
And Mr. Lakhani has never heard this from anyone before.
拉卡尼先生以前从未从任何人那里听到过这样的说法。
But was Lakhani just a sad sack?
但拉卡尼只是一个可悲的人吗？
It's true, a lot of the business deals Lakhani bragged about seemed like complete fabrications, but some of them were real.
确实，拉卡尼吹嘘的许多商业交易看起来完全是捏造的，但其中一些是真实的。
And his wife, Kusum, showed me photos proving that he moved in some pretty fancy circles.
他的妻子库苏姆向我展示了照片，证明他在一些非常奇特的圈子里活动过。
This is photo of Prince of Abu Dhabi, who came to play polo with Prince Charles.
这是阿布扎比王子的照片，他来与查尔斯王子打马球。
And we visited the grounds.
我们参观了场地。
Prince Charles is shaking hands with my husband.
查尔斯王子正在和我的丈夫握手。
And I'm standing by on the side.
而我则站在一旁。
But, then again, there are so many odd moments in the FBI tapes.
但是，话又说回来，联邦调查局的录音带中有很多奇怪的时刻。
Moments where Lakhani just seems out of his element.
拉卡尼似乎不合时宜。
One minute he'd be talking about weapons systems, the next he'd be offering a diamond deal, or scrap metal, anything.
前一分钟他还在谈论武器系统，下一分钟他就会提供钻石交易，或者废金属，任何东西。
Here's an exchange where Lakhani's weirdly candid about what he thought his first meeting with Rahman was going to be about.
在这次交流中，拉哈尼出奇地坦率地讲述了他与拉赫曼的第一次会面的内容。
Lakhani is speaking first here.
拉卡尼首先在这里发言。
When you first met me, did you have any idea that you'll be doing this?
当你第一次见到我时，你有想过你会这样做吗？
How did this happen?
这是怎么发生的？
Yes, I was looking for a serious person.
是的，我一直在寻找一个认真的人。
After meeting with you, I felt that this could also be done.
和你见面之后，我觉得这也是可以做到的。
OK.
好的。
To be honest, my idea was this.
说实话，我的想法是这样的。
You told me there were so many Mexican people and they eat a lot of mangoes.
你告诉我有很多墨西哥人，他们吃很多芒果。
Do you remember the mangoes from India?
你还记得来自印度的芒果吗？
It was my idea to import mangoes from India.
我的想法是从印度进口芒果。
I'm telling the truth.
我说的是实话。
Mangoes.
芒果。
And then, without missing a beat, Lakhani goes right back to discussing weapons.
然后，拉卡尼毫不犹豫地回到讨论武器上。
Then there's this exchange about Indian sweets.
然后是关于印度糖果的交流。
To me, he seems like an insecure man here.
对我来说，他在这里似乎是一个没有安全感的人。
Desperate to please.
极力讨好。
Again, Lakhani speaks first, and he mentions Kusum, his wife.
拉卡尼再次首先发言，他提到了他的妻子库苏姆。
Eat the sweets I brought for you, they are very high class.
吃我给你带来的糖果吧，它们非常高级。
Try this one.
试试这个。
Wow.
哇。
Lakhani's Translator Is it your favorite one?
Lakhani 的翻译是你最喜欢的吗？
Yes, I like it very much.
是的，我非常喜欢它。
Lakhani's Translator Yes, it is balushahi.
拉卡尼的翻译 是的，是巴卢沙希。
This is my favorite.
这是我最喜欢的。
Lakhani's Translator Kusum told me you would like it.
拉卡尼的翻译库苏姆告诉我你会喜欢的。
Yes, I like it most.
是的，我最喜欢它。
Lakhani's Translator Believe me, Kusum said you would like balushahi.
拉卡尼的翻译 相信我，库苏姆说你会喜欢巴卢沙希。
Yes.
是的。
Lakhani's Translator She was saying this sweet is very good.
Lakhani的翻译她说这个甜品非常好。
Even I did not know it.
连我自己都不知道。
Really, it is very delicious.
真的，非常好吃。
Lakhani's Translator Kusum was saying so.
拉卡尼的翻译库苏姆如是说。
I will call her right now and tell her that you like balushahi.
我现在就打电话给她，告诉她你喜欢巴卢沙希。
That's what I told you.
这就是我告诉你的。
Lakhani's Translator So she was right.
拉卡尼的翻译 所以她是对的。
Will you eat some?
你会吃一些吗？
Lakhani's Translator Yes, definitely.
拉卡尼的翻译 是的，当然。
Kusum was saying you will like it.
库苏姆说你会喜欢的。
Is it true?
这是真的吗？
Yes.
是的。
Lakhani's Translator Oh.
拉卡尼的翻译哦。
this is very tasty.
这很好吃。
But ask US Attorney Chris Christie about it, and it turns out he reads the scene completely differently.
但向美国检察官克里斯·克里斯蒂询问此事，结果发现他对这一场景的解读完全不同。
I absolutely agree with your description of him in that way, but I take something completely different from it.
我绝对同意你对他的描述，但我的看法却完全不同。
I don't think that he's this inane guy, which is what I'm getting from you.
我不认为他是个愚蠢的人，这就是我从你那里得到的信息。
You're thinking, like, this inane idiot is sitting there talking about the sweets he got, And why doesn't he get to the missile deal already?
你会想，这个愚蠢的白痴正坐在那里谈论他得到的糖果，为什么他还没有达成导弹协议呢？
But the fact of the matter is, Lakhani is trying to be a nice guy, a good guy.
但事实是，拉卡尼正在努力成为一个好人，一个好人。
He's trying to get on this guy's good side no matter what he has to do to do it, because he wants to make the deal.
无论他必须做什么，他都试图站在这个人的一边，因为他想达成这笔交易。
This is the conduct of a person who's a salesman.
这是一个推销员的行为。
I don't care what you're selling, whether it's a used car, women's clothing, or a missile.
我不在乎你卖什么，无论是二手车、女装还是导弹。
The deal is to get a customer who's willing to buy, and who buys from you.
交易的目的是吸引愿意购买并且向您购买产品的客户。
And he thinks this guy could go to somebody else if he gets frustrated with me, so I'm going to try to keep him close.
他认为如果这个人对我感到沮丧，他可能会去找其他人，所以我会尽力与他保持密切关系。
And that's the way I view that interaction.
这就是我看待这种互动的方式。
Coming up, in the words of the old saying, keep your friends close, keep your shoulder fired surface-to-air missile closer, Our story about Hemant Lakhani continues in a minute.
接下来，用一句老话来说，让你的朋友靠近，让你的肩扛式地对空导弹靠近，我们关于赫曼特·拉卡尼的故事稍后继续。
From Chicago public radio, and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续进行时，来自芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台。
It's This American Life , I'm Ira Glass.
这就是美国生活，我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today, we're devoting our whole show to the story of the government prosecution of Hemant Lakhani, on terrorism related charges.
今天，我们的整个节目主要讲述政府因恐怖主义相关指控起诉赫曼特·拉哈尼的故事。
For nearly two years Lakhani spoke with government informant Mohamed Habib Rahman.
近两年来，拉卡尼一直在与政府线人穆罕默德·哈比卜·拉赫曼进行交谈。
Again here's Petra Bartosiewicz.
佩特拉·巴托谢维奇又来了。
It did seem Lakhani would say anything to please Rahman.
看来拉卡尼确实会说任何话来取悦拉赫曼。
Whatever item Rahman requested: anti-aircraft weapons, land mines, radioactive suitcase bombs, his answer was always the same.
无论拉赫曼要求什么物品：防空武器、地雷、放射性手提箱炸弹，他的答案总是一样的。
It is available.
它是可用的。
Here's Lakhani in the second meeting, promising to get Rahman Russian-made Igla missiles, the surface-to-air shoulder fired kind.
拉赫尼在第二次会议上承诺获得拉赫曼俄罗斯制造的 Igla 导弹，地对空肩扛式导弹。
How many do you want?
你想要几个？
Rahman's Translator About 200.
拉赫曼的翻译大约200。
It will be done.
它将完成。
It will be arranged immediately.
会立即安排。
I will go there on Sunday.
我周日会去那里。
The delivery will be ready on Monday.
交货将于周一准备好。
He says this on April 25, 2002, that he'll deliver on Monday.
他于 2002 年 4 月 25 日如此表示，他将在周一交付。
But the truth is, Lakhani can't deliver on Monday.
但事实是，拉卡尼周一无法交付。
And he can't deliver for the next year.
他明年也无法交付。
Lakhani's problem isn't just that he can't deliver the missile, it's that he can't actually acquire one.
拉卡尼的问题不仅在于他无法交付导弹，还在于他无法真正获得一枚导弹。
So even though he's promising Rahman the deal is nearly done, in fact, there is no deal.
因此，尽管他向拉赫曼承诺交易即将完成，但事实上并没有达成任何协议。
Month after month after month, he puts Rahman off and Rahman, understandably, is getting impatient.
月复一月，他对拉赫曼不耐烦，可以理解的是，拉赫曼变得不耐烦了。
Here's Lakhani's attorney, Henry Klingeman again.
这是拉卡尼的律师亨利·克林格曼（Henry Klingeman）的报道。
In terms of the chronology, between January 2002 and August of 2003, there's a pattern.
从时间顺序来看，2002年1月到2003年8月之间有一个规律。
And there's no point in going conversation by conversation, because the conversations are all the same.
逐个对话是没有意义的，因为对话都是一样的。
The informant says, what's happening?
举报人说，这是怎么回事？
Lakhani says, the deal is done.
拉卡尼说，交易完成了。
The informant says, well, where is the missile?
线人说，那么，导弹在哪里？
Lakhani says it'll be here any day.
拉卡尼说它随时都会在这里。
And the missile never shows up.
而且导弹从未出现。
And the informant calls back two days later and says, what's happening?
两天后，线人回电说，发生了什么事？
Lakhani says, the deal is done.
拉卡尼说，交易完成了。
The informant says, well, where's the missile?
线人说，那么，导弹在哪里？
Lakhani says it will be here any day.
拉卡尼说它随时都会在这里。
And that just goes on and on and on.
这种情况一直持续下去。
Lakhani's one, and possibly only, weapons contact was the Ukrainian state controlled arms manufacturer.
拉卡尼的一个、也可能是唯一的武器联系人是乌克兰国家控制的武器制造商。
A company called Uker Spitz Export.
一家名为 Uker Spitz Export 的公司。
This was the company the Lakhani got the armored personnel carriers from in the Angola deal.
这就是拉卡尼人在安哥拉交易中获得装甲运兵车的公司。
He showed Rahman their weapons brochures.
他向拉赫曼展示了他们的武器手册。
But to buy missiles from them, he'd need special government paperwork, which he didn't have.
但要从他们那里购买导弹，他需要特殊的政府文件，但他没有。
So he started asking around in some shadier corners of the former Soviet republics.
于是他开始在前苏联加盟共和国的一些阴暗角落打听。
Apparently, he wasn't so subtle about it, because soon enough, the FSB, the Russian security service, caught wind of it, and started tracking Lakhani.
显然，他对此并没有那么微妙，因为很快，俄罗斯安全部门 FSB 发现了这一消息，并开始追踪拉卡尼。
Here's Chris Christie.
这是克里斯·克里斯蒂。
At some point Russian law enforcement, the FSB, contacted the FBI to let them know that they knew Lakhani was contacting legitimate sources in the old Soviet union, in an attempt to buy these missiles.
在某个时候，俄罗斯执法部门联邦安全局联系了联邦调查局，让他们知道拉卡尼正在联系前苏联的合法消息来源，试图购买这些导弹。
Well, I know at that point, for me, the light bulb really went on and I said, this guy's for real.
好吧，我知道在那一刻，对我来说，灯泡真的亮了，我说，这家伙是真的。
He knew the right people to call.
他知道该打电话给合适的人。
Still, Lakhani couldn't seem to get one.
尽管如此，拉卡尼似乎还是没能得到一个。
Months passed.
几个月过去了。
The US government had given the Lakhani a buyer, but they were getting tired of waiting for him to drum up a seller.
美国政府给了拉卡尼一家买家，但他们已经厌倦了等待他招揽卖家。
If only he'd find a missile their case could be done.
只要他能找到一枚导弹，他们的案子就可以完成。
So they get him a missile.
所以他们给了他一枚导弹。
They cook up a plan with the Russians.
他们与俄罗斯人制定了一个计划。
FSB agents posing as arms dealers sell Lakhani a dummy missile.
联邦安全局特工冒充军火商向拉卡尼出售一枚假导弹。
Real in every respect, except that it had no munitions.
除了没有弹药之外，它在各方面都是真实的。
Even an expert would have been fooled.
即使是专家也会被愚弄。
Lakhani falls for it.
拉卡尼上当了。
He even watches the missile being loaded onto a ship in Saint Petersburg that he thinks will carry it to the US.
他甚至亲眼目睹了导弹被装载到圣彼得堡的一艘船上，他认为这艘船将把它运往美国。
What he didn't know was that the American government had spirited the phony missile onto an airplane.
他不知道的是，美国政府已经将这枚假导弹偷偷运到了一架飞机上。
They eventually delivered it to Rahman's hotel room in Newark, in full view of the hidden FBI camera.
他们最终将其送到拉赫曼位于纽瓦克的酒店房间，在隐藏的联邦调查局摄像机的全部视野下。
When Lakhani saw it there, he was shocked.
当拉卡尼看到那里时，他感到震惊。
Not that it had arrived in New Jersey, but that it was luxuriating in a suite at the Gateway Hilton.
并不是说它已经抵达新泽西州，而是说它正在盖特威希尔顿酒店的一间豪华套房里。
What were you expecting when you went to the hotel?
当你去酒店的时候你在期待什么？
I was expecting to discuss everything that's all.
我期待着讨论一切。
I never thought that the missile would be sitting on the sofa.
我没想到导弹会坐在沙发上。
[LAUGHTER] Hemant Lakhani Yes.
[笑声] Hemant Lakhani 是的。
That's why I said, that's it.
这就是为什么我说，就是这样。
I see the box lying exactly in the middle of the sofa.
我看到盒子正好放在沙发中间。
The big one.
最大的一个。
Not the two side one, but the middle one.
不是两侧的，是中间的。
I said.
我说。
"He's a guest of you?" Like-- and I'm surprised.
“他是你的客人？”就像——我很惊讶。
I told him, "How did it come?" He said, "Lakhani, I told you.
我告诉他：“怎么来的？”他说：“拉卡尼，我告诉过你了。
In America you can smuggle anything." So I said, "You are a very powerful man, Mr. Haji." That's what I told him.
在美国你可以走私任何东西。”所以我说：“哈吉先生，你是一个非常有权力的人。”我就是这么告诉他的。
And then he wanted to open it.
然后他想打开它。
And I said, no, don't open it, because I'm scared.
我说，不，不要打开它，因为我害怕。
But I don't know how do you open.
但不知道怎么打开。
Which is right side or wrong side.
哪一边是正确的一边还是错误的一边。
I don't know nothing about it.
我对此一无所知。
Here's the video of that moment.
这是那一刻的视频。
Lakhani speaks first.
拉卡尼首先发言。
That is so wonderful.
那真是太美妙了。
Allah fulfilled your wish.
安拉满足了你的愿望。
The stuff arrived here.
东西到了这里。
What a big thing.
多么大的事情啊。
Please sit down.
请坐。
Lakhani's Translator This box, how it arrive here?
拉卡尼的翻译器 这个盒子，它是怎么到达这里的？
Yes, it is here.
是的，就在这里。
Boss, what did I tell you?
老板，我告诉你什么了？
I told you that you can smuggle anything into America.
我告诉过你，你可以将任何东西走私到美国。
Didn't I tell you?
我没告诉过你吗？
Yes, the same box.
是的，同一个盒子。
Rahman's Translator That's right the same box.
拉赫曼的翻译 正是同一个盒子。
Yes, I raise my hands.
是的，我举起双手。
I can't believe what we have done.
我不敢相信我们所做的一切。
Realizing the deal is almost finished, Lakhani becomes so delighted he leans over the box holding the missile, puts both his hands over his head, and shakes them around, as if he's trying to amuse a newborn baby.
意识到交易即将完成后，拉卡尼变得非常高兴，他靠在装有导弹的盒子上，将双手举在头上，并摇晃着它们，就像他在试图逗乐一个新生婴儿一样。
A few things seem clear here.
这里有几件事似乎很清楚。
First of all, he doesn't know the first thing about how this missile works.
首先，他对这种导弹的工作原理一无所知。
Not even which end is the shooting end.
甚至不知道哪一端是射击端。
And it seems obvious he's never done anything like this before.
很明显他以前从未做过这样的事情。
He makes a few illegal weapon sales faux pas even your mother wouldn't make.
他在非法武器销售方面做出了一些连你母亲都不会做的失礼行为。
Earlier in the deal, he'd offered to pay for the missile with a personal check.
在交易的早期，他提出用个人支票支付导弹费用。
Later, he hand wrote an IOU for it to a Russian agent, using his full name.
后来，他亲手给一名俄罗斯特工写了一张欠条，用的是他的全名。
Hemant Shantilal Lakhani.
赫曼特·尚蒂拉尔·拉卡尼。
But here's my favorite.
但这是我最喜欢的。
Rahman is first here.
拉赫曼首先来到这里。
Boss, here is another thing.
老板，还有一件事。
It has a serial number.
它有一个序列号。
What does it mean?
这是什么意思？
Rahman's Translator This is the serial number and we don't need it.
拉赫曼翻译器 这是序列号，我们不需要它。
It can be caught?
可以抓到吗？
Rahman's Translator It can be tracked from the serial number.
Rahman's Translator 可以从序列号中追踪到。
Look here, I have removed it.
看这里，我已经把它删除了。
Lakhani's Translator So you don't need it?
拉卡尼的翻译器 所以你不需要它？
Right.
正确的。
Petra Bartosiewicz What's also clear, though, is that Lakhani knows perfectly well what Rahman wants to do with the missile.
佩特拉·巴托谢维奇 但同样清楚的是，拉赫尼非常清楚拉赫曼想用导弹做什么。
They've pulled the curtain back from the hotel window and are holding up the missile as they survey the airplanes parked on the tarmac at Newark airport.
他们拉开酒店窗户的窗帘，举起导弹，同时检查停在纽瓦克机场停机坪上的飞机。
Boss, from here if four, five or six planes fall, what will happen?
老大，从这里开始，如果有四架、五架、六架飞机坠落，会发生什么？
They will be badly shaken.
他们将会受到严重的动摇。
Rahman's Translator What will happen to their economy?
拉赫曼的翻译 他们的经济会发生什么变化？
If it happens 10 or 15 places simultaneously, at the same time.
如果它同时发生在10或15个地方。
You mean different airports at the same time?
你的意思是同时在不同的机场？
Same time is very important.
同一时间非常重要。
They will think the war has started.
他们会认为战争已经开始了。
So he's putting on my shoulder.
所以他把我放在肩上。
And he says, look, now from here you can see the airport and we can shoot.
他说，看，现在从这里你可以看到机场，我们可以拍摄。
And he asks me, how many airports?
他问我，有多少个机场？
I say, "Look, I only know JFK airport.
我说：“听着，我只知道肯尼迪机场。
I don't know, I've never traveled within American.
我不知道，我从来没有在美国旅行过。
So I can't tell you anything." He said, "No, no. 10 airport.
所以我什么也不能告诉你。”他说：“不，是十号机场。”
And what is the best time?" I said, "The best time is-- the busiest time is either Monday or Friday." That's all I told him, which is the busiest time.
那么最好的时间是什么时候呢？”我说：“最好的时间是——最忙的时间是周一或周五。”我就这么告诉他了，这是最忙的时候。
Not the best time, busiest time.
不是最好的时间，而是最忙碌的时间。
Like Sunday morning.
就像周日早上一样。
Lakhani's Translator In the morning around 10:00 or 10:15 or 10:20, when all are still sleeping or whatever.
Lakhani 的翻译 早上 10:00 或 10:15 或 10:20 左右，当所有人还在睡觉或其他什么时候。
Yes, Monday or Friday.
是的，周一或周五。
Petra Bartosiewicz You've got a missile on your shoulder, or he does, I don't know.
佩特拉·巴托谢维奇：我不知道你肩上有一枚导弹，还是他肩上有一枚导弹。
He does.
他做到了。
Petra Bartosiewicz He does, OK.
Petra Bartosiewicz 他确实这么做了，好吧。
And you're looking at airplanes.
你正在看飞机。
And he's saying when is the busiest time, and he's talking clearly about shooting down a commercial airplane.
他说什么时候是最忙的时间，而且他明确谈论的是击落一架商用飞机。
Who started this?
这是谁开始的？
September 17, he said, that I am buying this for the purpose of shooting civil airlines.
9月17日，他说，我买这个是为了拍摄民航的。
What did you think of this purpose?
您对这个目的有何看法？
Did you think that was a good idea?
你认为这是个好主意吗？
Not at all.
一点也不。
Well I thought he was joking.
好吧，我以为他是在开玩笑。
Sitting in jail, Lakhani went on to say that he had thought the weapons were to be used in Africa, in some tribal skirmishes in Kenya or Nigeria or wherever.
坐在监狱里的拉卡尼接着说，他原以为这些武器会在非洲、肯尼亚、尼日利亚或其他地方的一些部落冲突中使用。
But even his own lawyer told us he didn't buy that one.
但就连他自己的律师也告诉我们他并没有买那个。
The tape of this last meeting on August 12, 2003 just peters out.
2003 年 8 月 12 日最后一次会议的录音刚刚消失。
That's because, at a certain point, Rahman leaves the room and six federal agents come in and arrest Lakhani.
这是因为，在某个时刻，拉赫曼离开了房间，六名联邦特工进来逮捕了拉卡尼。
Once he understands the meetings are on tape, he pretty much confesses, saying something like, I'm sorry.
一旦他知道会议被录音，他就几乎承认了，说了一些类似“对不起”之类的话。
You know everything.
你什么都知道。
But even then Lakhani still didn't quite comprehend what was happening.
但即便如此，拉卡尼仍然不太明白发生了什么。
Kusum told me, when she visited her husband in jail right after his arrest, he asked her where everyone else was.
库苏姆告诉我，当她丈夫被捕后，她去监狱探望他时，他问她其他人都在哪里。
Why Rahman wasn't sharing a cell with him.
为什么拉赫曼不与他共用一个牢房。
And that's when she told him, there is no one else.
就在那时她告诉他，没有其他人了。
You're it.
你就是它。
She said Lakhani was dumbfounded.
她说拉卡尼目瞪口呆。
He'd bought a fake missile, from a fake arms dealer, and delivered it to a fake terrorist.
他从一个假军火商那里买了一枚假导弹，然后把它交给了一个假恐怖分子。
Every part of the crime had been supplied to him by the US government.
犯罪的每一部分都是美国政府向他提供的。
That was almost two years ago.
那是差不多两年前的事了。
Lakhani's case went to trial in January this year.
拉卡尼的案件于今年一月开庭审理。
The only defense available to him was entrapment.
他唯一可用的防御手段就是被困住。
That if the government hadn't set him up, he would have never supplied a missile to a terrorist group, or anyone else.
如果政府没有陷害他，他就永远不会向恐怖组织或其他任何人提供导弹。
At trial, the state would have to prove that Lakhani was ready, and willing, to do the deal.
在审判中，政府必须证明拉卡尼已准备好并愿意进行这笔交易。
Or that he was able to actually get the missile.
或者说他真的能够得到导弹。
Lakhani's lawyer told jurors that although he may be loathsome, and an idiot, of the requirements, Lakhani was only willing, not ready.
拉卡尼的律师告诉陪审员，尽管他可能对这些要求感到厌恶和白痴，但拉卡尼只是愿意，还没有准备好。
And certainly not able.
当然也不能。
Here's Lakhani's lawyer Henry Klingeman.
请听拉卡尼的律师亨利·克林格曼的报道。
The entrapment defense is designed for people who are morally guilty to be legally not-guilty.
诱捕辩护是为那些在道德上有罪但在法律上无罪的人而设计的。
In terms of a legal defense, this was a great defense on September 10, when cooler heads might have prevailed.
就法律辩护而言，这是 9 月 10 日的一次很好的辩护，当时冷静的头脑可能会占上风。
Because he was clearly entrapped.
因为他显然已经被困住了。
Unfortunately for Lakhani, it was well past September 11.
不幸的是，对于拉卡尼来说，9 月 11 日已经过去了。
And what jurors saw was a man talking enthusiastically about shooting down airplanes.
陪审员看到的是一名男子热情地谈论击落飞机。
But the government's best weapon at the trial was the weapon itself.
但政府在审判中最好的武器就是武器本身。
On the first day, FBI agents carried in a wooden box shaped like a coffin, and set it down with a thud in front of the jury.
第一天，联邦调查局探员搬进一个棺材形状的木箱，“砰”的一声把它放在陪审团面前。
Then the prosecutor opened the box, and piece by piece, took out the missile.
随后检察官打开盒子，将导弹一块一块地取出来。
A long green steel tube.
一根长长的绿色钢管。
Donna, a bank executive, was one of the jurors.
银行高管唐娜是陪审员之一。
She asked that we not use her last name.
她要求我们不要使用她的姓氏。
I am known as juror number six from the Lakhani that took place in Newark, New Jersey.
我被称为新泽西州纽瓦克拉卡尼案的六号陪审员。
I listened very intently to both sides of the argument, and day number one I hadn't passed judgment.
我非常专心地倾听双方的争论，第一天我还没有做出判断。
I was just very focused on making sure I took as many notes, and not to let my emotions sway.
我只是非常专注于确保记下尽可能多的笔记，而不是让自己的情绪左右。
Because as soon as I started to hear the bad things being said about America, and Americans-- and I'm very patriotic-- they upset me.
因为一旦我开始听到有关美国和美国人的坏话——我非常爱国——他们就让我感到不安。
When I saw the missile being brought into the courtroom.
当我看到导弹被带进法庭时。
They took it out and they passed it by the jurors, I cringed.
他们把它拿出来并交给陪审员，我感到畏缩。
Every time I saw the box, I cringed.
每次看到这个盒子我就心疼。
Donna soon found the evidence overwhelming.
唐娜很快就发现了压倒性的证据。
So did everybody else.
其他人也是如此。
Everybody except one person.
除了一个人之外的所有人。
My name is Gussie Burnett.
我叫格西·伯内特。
I'm 65 years old.
我今年 65 岁了。
I work for the Newark public schools and I'm a librarian.
我在纽瓦克公立学校工作，是一名图书管理员。
Burnett, juror number nine, was the lone holdout.
第九号陪审员伯内特是唯一坚持不懈的人。
As far as I'm concerned, it was entrapment if he didn't actually do anything.
就我而言，如果他实际上什么也没做，那就是被困住了。
Some of the other jurors seem to think that Lakhani actually could have done this, that he could have gotten that missile if he tried long enough.
其他一些陪审员似乎认为拉卡尼实际上可以做到这一点，如果他尝试足够长的时间，他就可以得到那枚导弹。
But did he try for 22 months and then get one?
但他尝试了 22 个月后就得到了吗？
After offering all this-- millions of dollars.
在提供了这一切之后——数百万美元。
And he couldn't get a missile?
而且他拿不到导弹？
No, he wasn't going to never get no missile.
不，他不会永远得不到导弹。
And they knew he wasn't going to get one, either.
他们也知道他也不会得到一个。
That's why they bought it.
这就是他们买它的原因。
And set it right there in his lap.
然后把它放在他的腿上。
They just-- from day one, I just can't understand it.
他们只是——从第一天起，我就无法理解。
They came in and they sit down and they say, this man's guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty.
他们进来，坐下来，说，这个人有罪，有罪，有罪，有罪，有罪，有罪。
They didn't even think about it.
他们根本就没有考虑过。
Hey, wait a minute.
嘿，等一下。
Let's analyze these things.
我们来分析一下这些事情。
Just go one by one.
就一一去吧。
For a few hours, Burnett held her ground.
几个小时以来，伯内特一直坚持自己的立场。
It didn't go so well.
进展不太顺利。
So I say, he's guilty.
所以我说，他有罪。
Someone says, he's not guilty.
有人说，他无罪。
And I say, he's guilty, because look at page 48.
我说，他有罪，因为看看第 48 页。
And then someone else would say, well look at page 52.
然后其他人会说，好吧，看看第 52 页。
So everyone tried to make themselves heard.
所以每个人都试图让自己的声音被听到。
Voices started to rise so could be heard over the crowd.
声音开始提高，所以可以在人群中听到。
The juror who felt that he was not guilty, I think felt overwhelmed by probably a good six, seven, eight jurors talking loudly at the same time, that actually turned into screaming to be heard.
我认为，认为自己无罪的陪审员可能会被六、七、八名陪审员同时大声说话而不知所措，这实际上变成了尖叫声。
It was probably very intimidating for her.
这对她来说可能是非常令人恐惧的。
Correct.
正确的。
Because she was the only one that thought that he was not guilty.
因为她是唯一一个认为他无罪的人。
This is how that happened.
事情就是这样发生的。
I just closed on a house in Virginia.
我刚刚关闭了弗吉尼亚州的一所房子。
And everybody in the jury room knew it because the court was closed down on April 25, so I could go close on the house.
陪审团里的每个人都知道这一点，因为法庭于 4 月 25 日关闭，所以我可以靠近房子。
So when we came back, I think we started deliberating on a Wednesday.
所以当我们回来时，我想我们在星期三开始商议。
And we got to one count.
我们已经数到一了。
And I said, the man not guilty.
我说，这个人无罪。
Now, ain't nobody going to change my mind.
现在，没有人会改变我的想法。
And the jury foreman said, if I didn't go along with them, I wouldn't see the inside of my house until December.
陪审团领班说，如果我不跟他们去，我要到十二月才能看到我房子的内部。
So I said, oh, what the hell?
所以我说，哦，到底是什么？
He don't mean nothing to me, the man guilty.
他对我来说毫无意义，这个有罪的人。
But I know it was wrong.
但我知道这是错误的。
It wasn't right for them to do that man like that.
他们那样对待那个人是不对的。
It wasn't right.
这是不对的。
But it's over now.
但现在已经结束了。
Are you saying you regret your decision, to find him guilty?
你是说你后悔自己的决定，判他有罪吗？
I, uh-- yeah.
我，呃——是的。
Yeah.
是的。
I really do.
我真的这么做。
Because as far as I'm concerned, the man was entrapped.
因为就我而言，那个人被困住了。
I should have held out.
我应该坚持下去。
So the only person who bought Lakhani's defense, caved in the jury room.
因此，唯一支持拉卡尼辩护的人在陪审团房间里屈服了。
It took just over seven hours.
只用了七个多小时。
The jury found him guilty.
陪审团判定他有罪。
In the end, the government spent almost two years, and hundreds of thousands of dollars, trapping a man who didn't seem to have any connection to any real terrorists, or terrorist sympathizers.
最终，政府花了近两年的时间和数十万美元，抓获了一名似乎与任何真正的恐怖分子或恐怖分子同情者没有任何联系的人。
Chris Christie says it's his main regret about the case.
克里斯·克里斯蒂表示，这是他对此案最遗憾的事情。
That Lakhani didn't lead them to any other suspects.
拉卡尼没有让他们找到任何其他嫌疑人。
We asked Christie if maybe the problem wasn't that Lakhani refused to talk, but that he simply didn't know anything.
我们问克里斯蒂，问题是否不是拉卡尼拒绝说话，而是他什么都不知道。
I guess it's possible, Christie said.
“我想这是可能的，”克里斯蒂说。
Even so, he's happy with the outcome, because it proves that law enforcement is meeting its new mandate.
即便如此，他对结果还是很满意，因为这证明执法部门正在履行新的职责。
What Lakhani is emblematic of in the war on terrorism is, in the biggest way, the new American approach to law enforcement in the area of terrorism.
拉卡尼在反恐战争中最大的象征是美国在恐怖主义领域执法的新方法。
We're going to try to catch people before they act.
我们将尽力在人们采取行动之前将其抓获。
But this very policy, as good as it sounds, is what worries people like Henry Klingeman.
但这项政策，尽管听起来不错，却让像亨利·克林格曼这样的人感到担忧。
You could probably go to the Middle East and collar a random person on the street, and ask them what they think of America, and ask them what they would do if they were given the ability to send missiles to the United States.
你也许可以去中东，在街上随机找一个人，问他们对美国的看法，并问他们如果有能力向美国发射导弹，他们会做什么。
And you could probably find millions of people, sadly, who would say, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
可悲的是，你可能会发现数百万人会说，我会毫不犹豫地做到这一点。
You wouldn't even have to pay me, and I would do it.
你甚至不用付钱给我，我也会这么做。
Now, on the government's theory, we'd arrest all those people, because they are willing to participate in this type of activity.
现在，根据政府的理论，我们会逮捕所有这些人，因为他们愿意参与此类活动。
And we'd say, well, we stopped them before they were able to actually do it.
我们会说，好吧，我们在他们能够真正做到这一点之前阻止了他们。
But those people may or may not be capable of getting involved in Jihad, whoever they are.
但这些人可能有能力也可能没有能力参与圣战，无论他们是谁。
On the streets of Ramallah, on the streets of Kabul or wherever.
在拉马拉的街道上，在喀布尔的街道上或任何地方。
But Mr. Lakhani was not in that position and was not inclined to do this type of thing.
但拉卡尼先生并不处于那个位置，也不愿意做这种事。
He was all too willing to do it when asked, but he was never going to do it until he was asked.
当被要求时他非常愿意这样做，但除非有人要求他，否则他永远不会这样做。
And no one was going to ask him.
没有人会问他。
Because no real terrorist would ever go to Mr. Lakhani and ask him for anything.
因为真正的恐怖分子不会去找拉卡尼先生索要任何东西。
So, if the government's going to go out and apprehend people before they even think about this stuff, or maybe, after they think about it, before they ever do anything about it, then we might as well put barbed wire around the entire Middle East.
因此，如果政府要在人们想到这件事之前，或者也许在他们想到这件事之后，在他们采取任何行动之前就出去逮捕他们，那么我们还不如在整个中东地区设置铁丝网。
Because that's really the logical conclusion of that policy.
因为这确实是该政策的逻辑结论。
Ask Christy about this, and he says what might have been in Lakhani's case, whether he could have ever gotten the missile, isn't even relevant.
向克里斯蒂询问此事，他说拉卡尼的情况可能是什么，他是否可以获得导弹，甚至都不相关。
You're saying that he is a person who facilitates terrorist activity.
你说他是一个为恐怖活动提供便利的人。
But, actually, he's a person who potentially might have facilitated.
但实际上，他是一个有可能提供便利的人。
I mean, the fact is, there actually wasn't a terrorist group, there wasn't a missile, he didn't do this deal.
我的意思是，事实是，实际上没有恐怖组织，没有导弹，他没有做这笔交易。
So is the question-- I guess you see him as someone who really would have been approached by a terrorist.
问题也是如此——我想你认为他真的会被恐怖分子接近。
But I'm not sure where the evidence is for that.
但我不确定证据在哪里。
How do you make that argument, really?
真的，你如何提出这个论点？
It seems like it's all speculation to say he might have turned into a bad guy.
看来他可能变成坏人的说法都是猜测。
No, I disagree with you.
不，我不同意你的观点。
He was a bad guy.
他是个坏人。
Once you find someone who is that basically amoral, then whether or not he was actually able to do it, that debate, which I have one opinion of and the defense has another opinion of, and maybe you have a slightly different opinion, who cares?
一旦你找到一个基本上不道德的人，那么他是否真的能够做到这一点，那场辩论，我有一种看法，辩方有另一种看法，也许你有稍微不同的看法，谁在乎呢？
I mean at the end, who cares?
我的意思是最后，谁在乎呢？
I don't have a crystal ball.
我没有水晶球。
And I don't know if this had fallen apart, what Hemant Lekhani.
我不知道赫曼特·莱卡尼 (Hemant Lekhani) 是否已经崩溃了。
Lakhani would have done next.
拉卡尼接下来会做。
So the question is, confronted with those realities, as an American law enforcement, what do we do?
那么问题是，面对这些现实，作为美国执法人员，我们该怎么办？
Do we ignore it, because we say, eh, maybe he could, maybe he couldn't.
我们是否会忽略它，因为我们说，呃，也许他可以，也许他不能。
Let's see.
让我们来看看。
Let's see if he does.
让我们看看他是否这样做。
I'm just not willing to take that chance.
我只是不愿意冒这个机会。
And I think most Americans would say the same thing.
我认为大多数美国人都会说同样的话。
Hemant Lakhani was willing to sell missiles to a person he believed to be a terrorist.
赫曼特·拉卡尼 (Hemant Lakhani) 愿意向他认为是恐怖分子的人出售导弹。
Who expressly said he was going to use them to kill innocent people.
他明确表示要利用它们来杀害无辜者。
And so there are good people and bad people.
所以有好人也有坏人。
Bad people do bad things.
坏人做坏事。
Bad people have to be punished.
坏人就必须受到惩罚。
These are simple truths.
这些都是简单的事实。
Bad people must be punished, and so, he's not just a guy with four beers in him at the corner bar, who says, yeah, if I could get a missile and I'd sell it to whoever if could make a buck.
坏人必须受到惩罚，所以，他不仅仅是一个在街角酒吧里喝着四瓶啤酒的人，他说，是的，如果我能得到一枚导弹，我会把它卖给任何能赚钱的人。
That's not who we're talking about here.
那不是我们在这里谈论的人。
So let's not minimize him either.
所以我们也不要贬低他。
He's not Osama Bin Laden.
他不是奥萨马·本·拉登。
But, you know, let's not make him Elmer Fudd, either.
但是，你知道，我们也不要让他成为埃尔默·福德。
All I know is that he's not the kind of guy I want coming through Newark airport.
我只知道他不是那种我希望通过纽瓦克机场的人。
He's not the kind of guy I want in this country.
他不是我在这个国家想要的那种人。
That's the kind of guy I want in federal prison.
这就是我想要在联邦监狱里关押的那种人。
So that's where he's going to go.
所以这就是他要去的地方。
And, at the end, that's the success of the Lakhani case.
最后，这就是拉卡尼案的成功。
In Washington, the Lakhani case is seen as one of the most successful prosecutions in the war on terror.
在华盛顿，拉卡尼案被视为反恐战争中最成功的起诉之一。
It was one of three cases the Justice Department cited in testimony before Congress when the Patriot Act came up for renewal, as an example of proactive, preemptive prosecution.
这是司法部在《爱国者法案》更新时在国会作证时引用的三个案例之一，作为主动、先发制人起诉的例子。
But what's so hard to figure out is whether the government's methods are actually working.
但很难弄清楚政府的方法是否真的有效。
In 2005, President Bush said that over 400 people had been charged with terrorism-related crimes since the September 11 attacks.
2005年，布什总统表示，自9月11日袭击事件以来，已有400多人被指控犯有与恐怖主义有关的罪行。
And that in over half of those cases, the defendants were convicted or pled guilty.
在超过一半的案件中，被告被定罪或认罪。
But an investigation by The Washington Post , which spent six months examining almost every case, found that in reality only 39 people, not 200, had been convicted of terrorism or national security related crimes.
但《华盛顿邮报》花了 6 个月的时间审查了几乎所有案件，调查发现，实际上只有 39 人，而不是 200 人，被判犯有恐怖主义或国家安全相关罪行。
And only 14 were connected to Al Qaeda.
只有 14 人与基地组织有联系。
Lakhani was counted as one of those 14.
拉卡尼被算作这 14 人之一。
Petra Bartosiewicz.
佩特拉·巴托谢维奇。
She's writing a book about terrorism trials since 9/11 called The Best Terrorists We Could Find .
她正在写一本关于 9/11 以来的恐怖主义审判的书，名为《我们能找到的最好的恐怖分子》。
Her story was first broadcast in 2005.
她的故事于 2005 年首次播出。
Hemant Lakhani is now 74 years old, and has at least another 35 years left on his prison sentence.
Hemant Lakhani 现年 74 岁，至少还有 35 年的刑期。
The US Attorney in the Lakhani case, Chris Christie, is now running for the Governor of New Jersey.
拉卡尼案的美国检察官克里斯·克里斯蒂目前正在竞选新泽西州州长。
On his official campaign website, the Lakhani case is listed in a section of his major accomplishments, under "Cases that made a difference."
在他的官方竞选网站上，拉卡尼案被列在他的主要成就的一部分中，位于“产生影响的案件”下。
The number of terrorism cases has risen since 2005 from 400.
自 2005 年以来，恐怖主义案件数量已从 400 起上升。
As of May 2009 it stands at 720 according to the Center on Law and Security at NYU Law School.
根据纽约大学法学院法律与安全中心的数据，截至 2009 年 5 月，该数字排在第 720 位。
Cases where informants bait the suspects into committing a terrorist act, like the Lakhani case, or the recent Newburgh case that we talked about at the top of the program, are just a small number of these prosecutions.
线人引诱嫌疑人实施恐怖行为的案件，比如拉卡尼案，或者我们在节目开头谈到的最近的纽堡案，只是这些起诉的一小部分。
Maybe a dozen is the best estimate.
也许十几个是最好的估计。
But Aziz Huq, the University of Chicago Law School assistant professor that we heard at the beginning of our program, says these are the high profile cases.
但我们在节目开始时听到的芝加哥大学法学院助理教授阿齐兹·胡克 (Aziz Huq) 表示，这些都是备受瞩目的案件。
These are the ones that appear above the fold in the newspaper.
这些是出现在报纸首屏的内容。
These are the cases that are propelling public debate, right?
这些都是推动公众辩论的案例，对吧？
These are the cases where you have the Attorney General, the Mayor of New York, standing up and, if not thumping the table, then saying in a loud and declarative voice, there continues to be a significant, domestic terrorism threat in the United States.
在这些情况下，司法部长、纽约市长站起来，如果不是拍桌子的话，也会大声宣布，美国仍然存在重大的国内恐怖主义威胁。
Is there any kind of sense that the new administration, the Obama administration, is going to discourage these kind of cases.
是否有任何感觉表明新政府，即奥巴马政府，将阻止此类案件的发生？
Or are they just chugging right along with this?
或者他们只是随波逐流？
The Obama administration hasn't changed, I think, as much as its supporters either hoped or thought it would.
我认为，奥巴马政府并没有像其支持者所希望或认为的那样发生改变。
I think it's very unlikely that we will see significant change under the Holder Justice Department.
我认为我们不太可能在霍尔德司法部的领导下看到重大变化。
If you were to redirect the way all that Justice Department force is being applied, what would you do?
如果你要改变司法部所有力量的运用方式，你会怎么做？
Where would you send them?
你会把他们送到哪里？
I think that the way that informants are used in the United States is, at the end of the day, counterproductive.
我认为美国利用线人的方式最终会适得其反。
The FBI and state and local law enforcement, have been using informants for decades.
联邦调查局以及州和地方执法部门几十年来一直在使用线人。
Take that very successful tactic that's been used in the drug context, been used in the organized crime context, transplant it into the terrorism context, and what happens?
采用在毒品领域、有组织犯罪领域使用过的非常成功的策略，将其移植到恐怖主义领域，会发生什么？
Well, you start sending out your informants.
好吧，你开始派出你的线人。
Those informants are under considerable pressure to find conspiracies.
这些线人面临着寻找阴谋的巨大压力。
And it's just not easy.
这并不容易。
It's not easy to do that in the way that it's straightforward to do in the organized crime context, and the drug context.
在有组织的犯罪背景和毒品背景下，要做到这一点并不容易。
There just aren't as many terrorists as there are drug runners or mafia kingpins in the United States, right?
在美国，恐怖分子的数量还不如毒贩或黑手党头目，对吧？
And, in addition, if you are actually part of a sleeper cell, why are you going to talk to this bozo who drives up in his Mercedes, and seems like he looks just like a government informant?
此外，如果你实际上是潜伏小组的一员，你为什么要和这个开着奔驰来的笨蛋说话，而且他看起来就像一个政府线人？
I know in the Newburgh case, the assistant Imam of one the mosques told the press, we all just, we thought the guy in the nice car, we assumed he was a government informant.
我知道在纽堡案件中，一座清真寺的助理伊玛目告诉媒体，我们都只是，我们认为那个坐在好车里的人，我们假设他是政府线人。
The use of informants, as we see from the Lakhani case, as we see from the Newburgh case, is not going to target the smart terrorist.
正如我们从拉卡尼案和纽堡案中看到的那样，使用线人并不是针对聪明的恐怖分子。
It's going to target individuals who are marginal, who are vulnerable to suggestion.
它将针对那些处于边缘地位、容易受到建议的人。
It's going to target, quite frankly, people who are a little dim.
坦率地说，它将针对那些有点迟钝的人。
Our program was produced today by Sarah Koenig and myself, with Alex Blumberg, Diane Cook, Jane Feltes and Lisa Pollak.
今天我们的节目由 Sarah Koenig 和我本人以及 Alex Blumberg、Diane Cook、Jane Feltes 和 Lisa Pollak 共同制作。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Adrianne Mathiowetz runs our website.
阿德琳娜·马修韦茨 (Adrianne Mathiowetz) 负责运营我们的网站。
Seth Lind is our production manager.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的生产经理。
Production help from Todd Bachmann, Laura Bellows and Aaron Scott.
托德·巴赫曼 (Todd Bachmann)、劳拉·贝洛斯 (Laura Bellows) 和亚伦·斯科特 (Aaron Scott) 为制作提供帮助。
Our music consultant each week is Jessica Hopper.
我们每周的音乐顾问是杰西卡·霍珀。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
[致谢]《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
WBEZ management oversight for a program, by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia, who usually calls me by one of these names: "Meal ticket, dupe, patsy." I'm Ira Glass.
WBEZ 对一项计划的管理监督由我们的老板托里·马拉蒂亚 (Torey Malatia) 先生负责，他通常用以下名字之一称呼我：“饭票，骗子，小偷。”我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。