385: Pro Se - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #385 | July 9, 2010 385: Pro Se Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 385 集 | 2010 年 7 月 9 日 385：Pro Se 注意：This American Life 是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass There's an old saying that a lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client.
序言 Ira Glass 有句老话说，为自己辩护的律师对客户来说是个傻瓜。
And not many lawyers actually try it, but people like you and me apparently do, lots of us non-lawyers.
实际上并没有多少律师尝试过，但像你和我这样的人显然会这样做，我们很多人都不是律师。
The number's actually kind of shocking.
这个数字确实有点令人震惊。
In New York State alone, 1.8 million people represent themselves in court in a typical year.
仅在纽约州，每年就有 180 万人在法庭上代表自己。
It's nine out of ten litigants in Housing Court, three out of four litigants in Family Court.
住房法院的诉讼当事人中有十分之九，家庭法院的诉讼当事人有四分之三。
So many amateurs gumming up the system that, years ago, the State decided to open up help centers, 23 of them all over the state, like this one in a courthouse in downtown Manhattan.
如此多的业余爱好者搞砸了这个系统，几年前，州政府决定开设帮助中心，其中 23 个帮助中心遍布全州，就像曼哈顿市中心法院大楼里的这个帮助中心一样。
That's one of the three law school interns who are here giving advice today.
这是今天在这里提供建议的三名法学院实习生之一。
And if you heard him say that and you thought to yourself, I don't know what summary judgment means either, I just want to say to you me too.
如果你听到他这么说，你心里想，我也不知道简易判决是什么意思，我只想对你说，我也一样。
Which is kind of the point.
这就是重点。
These are amateurs being sent in to do something that is technical, and full of jargon, and totally intimidating.
这些业余爱好者被派去做一些技术性的、充满行话的、完全令人生畏的事情。
In criminal cases, you can get a free court-appointed attorney, but any other kind of case, housing, family law, credit issues, small claims, bankruptcy, civil cases of all kinds, you are on your own.
在刑事案件中，您可以免费获得法院指定的律师，但任何其他类型的案件，住房，家庭法，信用问题，小额索赔，破产，各种民事案件，您都需要自己解决。
And the reason that most people represent themselves is they just can't afford an attorney.
大多数人代表自己的原因是他们请不起律师。
So the number's been increasing as the economy's gotten worse.
因此，随着经济恶化，这个数字一直在增加。
At this particular help center, which specializes in housing court cases, people wait in long lines and a big government room with green linoleum floors.
在这个专门处理住房法庭案件的特殊帮助中心，人们排着长队等待，还有一个铺着绿色油毡地板的大政府房间。
One guy is so confused that he thinks that he's here to get a free lawyer to take his case.
有一个人非常困惑，他以为自己来这里是为了找一位免费律师来接他的案子。
He fills out a form and then he takes it to the receptionist.
他填写了一份表格，然后将其交给接待员。
One of the attending court attorneys here, one named Ruth Sharfman, told one of our producers, Sean Cole, that, understandably, people have a lot of misconceptions about what is in the law.
一位出庭律师露丝·沙夫曼 (Ruth Sharfman) 告诉我们的制片人之一肖恩·科尔 (Sean Cole)，人们对法律的规定存在很多误解，这是可以理解的。
I mean, some of them are almost-- well, they can't evict me, it's winter, you know?
我的意思是，他们中的一些人几乎——好吧，他们不能驱逐我，现在是冬天，你知道吗？
You don't throw people out New Year's Eve, but yeah, they can't evict me, I have a baby.
你不会在除夕夜把人赶出去，但是，他们不能驱逐我，我有一个孩子。
It's like, watch them.
就像，看着他们。
They have to give me six months' more time to move out.
他们必须再给我六个月的时间才能搬出去。
No. They don't have to.
不，他们不必这样做。
And then there are the people who come in terrified because they get a notice and think the Marshall's going to throw them out that afternoon.
还有一些人进来时很害怕，因为他们收到通知，认为马歇尔那天下午就会把他们赶出去。
They don't realize they can't do it.
他们没有意识到他们做不到。
They have to take you to court.
他们必须把你告上法庭。
You know, but they come in thinking well, don't I have the right to a lawyer?
你知道，但他们想得很清楚，我没有权利请律师吗？
And the answer is yeah, you have the right to a lawyer.
答案是肯定的，您有权聘请律师。
What you don't have is the right to one you don't pay for.
你所没有的就是不花钱就能获得的权利。
As you might expect, some lawyers and judges hate these amateur lawyers.
正如你所料，一些律师和法官讨厌这些业余律师。
Imagine being a surgeon and having somebody in the operating room in a key position who doesn't know the names of the instruments or what they can do.
想象一下，作为一名外科医生，手术室里有一个处于关键位置的人，但他不知道仪器的名称或它们的功能。
The legal term for representing yourself in court is a Latin phrase, pro se, which means on behalf of himself.
在法庭上代表自己的法律术语是一个拉丁短语“pro se”，意思是代表自己。
And so today, on our radio show, we have four very dramatic stories of pro se people, people brave enough-- or desperate enough, actually, in most of these cases-- to become their own advocates.
因此，今天，在我们的广播节目中，我们有四个关于散文人士的非常戏剧性的故事，这些人足够勇敢——或者实际上，在大多数情况下足够绝望——成为自己的拥护者。
One of them does that in a courtroom, the others do it out in the world.
其中一个是在法庭上这样做的，其他人则是在现实世界中这样做的。
From WBEZ, Chicago, it's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.
这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Act 1 of our show today, Psycho Dabble.
我们今天节目的第一幕，《Psycho Dabble》。
Jon Ronson has the tale of a teenager who simply has to outwit professional psychiatrists, and a lot of them.
乔恩·罗森（Jon Ronson）讲述了一个青少年的故事，他必须智取专业精神科医生，而且要智胜很多专业精神科医生。
Act 2, Disorder in the Court, in which I talk to a prosecutor who has lost to an amateur who was defending himself.
第二幕，法庭混乱，我与一位检察官交谈，他输给了一位为自己辩护的业余人士。
Act 3, Swak Down, in that act a brother does what he has to to help his sister.
第三幕，Swak Down，在该幕中，兄弟尽其所能帮助他的妹妹。
Act 4, Underling Gets An Underling.
第四幕，下属得到下属。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act 1, Psycho Dabble.
第一幕，心理涉足。
Jon Ronson, in London, has this story of a guy named Tony who has spent years representing himself trying to prove a case with some people who think he's crazy.
伦敦的乔恩·罗森（Jon Ronson）讲述了一个名叫托尼（Tony）的人的故事，他花了数年时间为自己辩护，试图向一些认为他疯了的人证明这一点。
Literally.
字面上地。
I first heard of Tony three months ago when I was having lunch with a Scientologist called Brian Daniels.
我第一次听说托尼是在三个月前，当时我正在与一位名叫布莱恩·丹尼尔斯的山达基教徒共进午餐。
Brian runs the British office of an international network of Scientologists called the Citizens Commission on Human Rights.
布莱恩负责管理一个名为“公民人权委员会”的国际山达基教徒网络的英国办事处。
They're determined to prove to the world that psychiatrists are wicked and must be stopped.
他们决心向世界证明精神科医生是邪恶的，必须予以制止。
Brian and I shared a mistrust of psychiatry.
布莱恩和我都对精神病学不信任。
Admittedly, his loathing was deep and abiding and I'd only had mine for a few days, but it gave us something to talk about over lunch.
不可否认，他的厌恶是深刻而持久的，而我的厌恶才几天，但这给了我们在午餐时谈论的话题。
When dessert came, he put down his spoon and he said, "You should meet Tony." "Who's Tony?" I asked.
当甜点上来时，他放下勺子说：“你应该见见托尼。” “托尼是谁？”我问。
"Tony's in Broadmoor." said Brian.
“托尼在布罗德莫。”布莱恩说。
I put down my spoon.
我放下勺子。
Broadmoor is Broadmoor Psychiatric Hospital.
布罗德莫尔是布罗德莫尔精神病医院。
It was once known as Broadmoor Asylum for the Criminally Insane.
它曾经被称为布罗德莫精神病院。
This is where they sent Ian Brady, the "Moors Murderer," who killed five children in Manchester in the 1960s.
他们将 20 世纪 60 年代在曼彻斯特杀害了 5 名儿童的“摩尔杀人犯”伊恩·布雷迪 (Ian Brady) 送到了这里。
And Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper, who murdered 13 women in the 1970s.
还有约克郡开膛手彼得·萨克利夫 (Peter Sutcliffe)，他在 20 世纪 70 年代谋杀了 13 名妇女。
And the Stockwell Strangler, who murdered seven elderly people in 1986.
还有斯托克韦尔绞杀者，他在 1986 年谋杀了 7 名老人。
Broadmoor is where they sentence the serial killers, and the pedophiles, and the child murderers, the ones who couldn't help themselves.
布罗德莫尔是他们审判连环杀手、恋童癖者、儿童杀人犯以及那些无法自拔的人的地方。
"What did Tony do?" I asked Brian.
“托尼做了什么？”我问布莱恩。
"Tony," said Brian, "is completely sane.
“托尼，”布莱恩说，“完全神志清醒。
He faked his way in there, and now he's stuck.
他假装进去了，现在他被困住了。
Nobody will believe he's sane." "What do you mean?" I asked.
没有人会相信他是理智的。” “你是什么意思？”我问。
"He was arrested years ago for something." said Brian.
“他几年前因某事被捕。”布莱恩说。
"I think he beat someone up or something, and he decided to fake madness to get out of a prison sentence.
“我认为他殴打了某人或某事，然后他决定假装疯狂以逃脱监禁。
So they sent him to Broadmoor, and now he's stuck.
所以他们把他送到了布罗德莫尔，现在他陷入了困境。
The more he tries to convince the psychiatrists he's not crazy, the more they take it as evidence that he is.
他越是试图让精神科医生相信他没有疯，他们就越将其视为他疯了的证据。
Do you want me to get you into Broadmoor to meet Tony?"
你想让我带你去布罗德莫去见托尼吗？”
I automatically started thinking about what I'd do if I had to prove I was sane.
我不自觉地开始思考，如果我必须证明自己神智正常，我会做什么。
I'd like to think that just being my regular, sane self would be evidence enough.
我想，只要保持正常、理智的自我就足以证明这一点。
But I'd probably behave in such an overly polite, and helpful, and competent manner, I'd come across like a mad butler with panic in his eyes.
但我可能会表现得过于礼貌、乐于助人、称职，以至于给人的印象就像是一个眼神里充满惊慌的疯狂管家。
Plus it turns out that when I'm placed in an insane situation, I tend to get crazier.
另外，事实证明，当我处于疯狂的境地时，我往往会变得更加疯狂。
Recently, I was mid-air on a plane with no leg room.
最近，我在一架没有腿部空间的飞机上。
And it was so packed and claustrophobic, I let out a loud, involuntary yelp.
里面挤满了人，让人产生幽闭恐惧症，我不由自主地大声喊叫。
I shouted, "Eww!" I didn't know that such mysterious, crazy noises existed within me.
我喊道：“哎哟！”我不知道我体内存在着如此神秘、疯狂的声音。
Did I want to meet Tony?
我想见见托尼吗？
I looked at Brian.
我看着布莱恩。
"OK." I said.
“好的。”我说。
My mistrust of psychiatrists began the previous Monday when I was at a friend's house and I happened to notice on her shelf a book called, DSM-IV-TR .
我对精神科医生的不信任始于上周一，当时我在朋友家，碰巧注意到她的书架上有一本书，名为《DSM-IV-TR》。
I've been told that many Americans have heard of this book, but it was new to me.
我听说很多美国人都听说过这本书，但对我来说还是陌生的。
My friend explained that it was the psychiatrist's manual published by the American Psychiatric Association.
朋友解释说，这是美国精神病学协会出版的精神科医生手册。
It was huge, some 900 pages.
它很大，大约有 900 页。
And I later found out that it sits on the shelves of psychiatry offices all over the world and it lists every known mental disorder.
后来我发现它位于世界各地精神病学办公室的书架上，它列出了所有已知的精神障碍。
While flipping through it, I instantly diagnosed myself with 12 different disorders including, but not limited to: Disorder of Written Expression, which is poor handwriting; Arithmetic Learning Disorder, which has luckily been cured since I bought a calculator; and Nightmare Disorder, which is diagnosed when the sufferer dreams of being pursued or declared a failure.
当我翻阅它时，我立即诊断出自己患有12种不同的疾病，包括但不限于： 书写表达障碍，即字迹不好；算术学习障碍，幸运的是，自从我买了计算器之后，算术学习障碍就被治愈了；以及梦魇症，当患者梦见被追捕或被宣布失败时，就会被诊断为梦魇症。
All my nightmares involve someone chasing me down the street whilst yelling, "You're a failure!"
我所有的噩梦都是有人在街上追我，同时大喊：“你是个失败者！”
I closed the manual.
我关闭了手册。
I never realized how unbelievably nuts I was.
我从来没有意识到我有多疯狂。
Or maybe I wasn't nuts at all.
或者也许我根本就没有疯。
Maybe the American Psychiatric Association were the nutty ones.
也许美国精神病学协会才是最疯狂的。
I wanted to find a critic of psychiatry, someone who'd studied its irrationalities, so I could test this new theory.
我想找到一位精神病学的批评者，一个研究过精神病学非理性的人，这样我就可以测试这个新理论。
So I did a Google search and found Brian and the CCHR.
所以我在谷歌上搜索，找到了布莱恩和 CCHR。
And that's how, two Saturdays later, I ended up in a car with Brian heading towards Broadmoor in Crowthorne, a village to the west of London.
就这样，两个星期六后，我和布莱恩一起乘车前往伦敦西部克罗索恩村的布罗德莫尔。
Although Brian's group had been quietly helping Tony with his various legal tribunals to try and get him out of Broadmoor, they hadn't yet introduced him to a journalist.
尽管布莱恩的团队一直在悄悄地帮助托尼在各个法律法庭上试图让他离开布罗德莫，但他们还没有把他介绍给记者。
I was to be the first.
我本来是第一个。
The visitor's center, housed behind high security fence, after fence, after fence, was painted in the calming hues of a letter complex: peaches, and pinks, and pine.
游客中心位于高高的安全栅栏后面，一道道栅栏，一道道栅栏，被漆成字母复合体的平静色调：桃子、粉红色和松树。
The prints on the wall were pastel paintings of French doors opening onto beaches at sunrise.
墙上的印刷品是日出时通往海滩的法式门的柔和画作。
The building was called The Wellness Center.
该建筑被称为健康中心。
Brian said the attorney would be a minute because it's a bit of a walk from the Dangerous and Severe Personality Disorder unit.
布莱恩说律师会花一分钟时间，因为距离危险和严重人格障碍部门有一段步行路程。
I looked at Brian.
我看着布莱恩。
"Is Tony in the part of Broadmoor that houses the most dangerous people?" I asked.
“托尼在布罗德莫尔住着最危险的人吗？”我问。
"Crazy, isn't it?" laughed Brian.
“疯了，不是吗？”布莱恩笑道。
Patients began drifting in to sit with their loved ones at tables and chairs that had been nailed to the ground.
病人开始涌入，与他们的亲人一起坐在钉在地上的桌椅旁。
They all looked quite similar to each other: quite docile and sad-eyed, overweight, and wearing loose T-shirts and sweat pants.
他们看起来都很相似：都很温顺，眼神悲伤，体重超重，穿着宽松的T恤和运动裤。
I suppose there's not much to do in here but eat.
我想这里除了吃饭之外没什么可做的。
They drank tea and ate chocolate bars from the dispenser with their parents.
他们和父母一起喝茶，吃自动售货机里的巧克力。
I wondered if any of them were famous.
我想知道他们中是否有名人。
"Oh, here's Tony now." said Brian.
“哦，托尼现在在这儿。”布莱恩说。
I looked across the room.
我看了看房间的另一边。
A man, who looked to be in his late 20s, was walking towards us.
一个看上去二十多岁的男人正朝我们这边走来。
He wasn't shuffling like the others had, he was sauntering.
他不像其他人那样拖着脚步，而是悠闲地漫步。
His arm was outstretched.
他的手臂伸出了。
He wasn't wearing sweat pants, he was wearing a pinstriped jacket and trousers.
他没有穿运动裤，而是穿着细条纹夹克和裤子。
He looked like a young businessman trying to make his way in the world, like someone on The Apprentice, a man who wants to show everyone that he was very, very sane.
他看起来就像一个试图在世界上闯出一片天的年轻商人，就像《学徒》中的某个人，一个想要向所有人展示他非常非常理智的人。
And, of course, as I watched him approach our table, I wondered if the pinstripe was a clue that he was sane, or a clue that he wasn't.
当然，当我看着他走近我们的桌子时，我想知道细条纹是否表明他神智正常，或者表明他神志不清。
He shook my hand and sat down.
他握了握我的手，然后坐下。
"So Brian says you faked your way in here." I said.
“布莱恩说你是假装进来的。”我说。
"That's exactly right." said Tony.
“完全正确。”托尼说。
He had the voice of a normal, nice, eager-to-help young man.
他的声音就像一个正常、友善、乐于助人的年轻人。
"I'd committed GBH," he said, "grievous bodily harm.
“我犯了GBH，”他说，“严重的身体伤害。
After they arrested me, I sat in my cell and I thought, I'm looking at five to seven years.
他们逮捕我后，我坐在牢房里想，我可能会被判五到七年的刑期。
So I asked the other prisoners what to do.
于是我问其他囚犯该怎么办。
They said, 'Easy.
他们说，‘简单。
Tell them you're mad.
告诉他们你很生气。
They'll put you in a county hospital.
他们会把你送到县医院。
You'll have Sky TV and a PlayStation.
您将拥有 Sky TV 和 PlayStation。
Nurses will bring you pizzas.' "But they didn't send me to some cushy hospital.
护士会给你送披萨。” “但他们没有把我送到一些舒适的医院。
They sent me to bloody Broadmoor." "How long ago was this?" I asked.
他们把我送到该死的布罗德莫。” “这是多久以前的事了？”我问。
"12 years ago." said Tony.
“12年前。”托尼说。
I involuntarily grinned.
我不自觉地笑了。
Tony grinned back.
托尼也回以微笑。
I wasn't allowed to tape Tony, which is why you're not hearing his voice.
我不被允许给托尼录音，这就是为什么你听不到他的声音。
But I've had several long conversations with him now, in person and over the phone.
但我现在已经和他进行了几次长时间的交谈，无论是当面还是通过电话。
I didn't want this story to cause him any more trouble with the authorities, so I decided to change Tony's name.
我不想让这个故事给他带来更多的麻烦，所以我决定改变托尼的名字。
I asked him to choose a name, and we decided on Tony.
我让他选择一个名字，我们决定选择托尼。
Tony said faking madness to get in was the easy part, especially when you're 17, and you take drugs, and you watch a lot of scary movies.
托尼说，假装疯狂来进入是很容易的，尤其是当你 17 岁时，你吸毒，而且看了很多恐怖电影。
You don't need to know how authentically crazy people behave, you just plagiarize the character that Dennis Hopper played in the movie Blue Velvet.
你不需要知道人们的行为有多疯狂，你只需抄袭丹尼斯·霍珀在电影《蓝丝绒》中扮演的角色即可。
That's what Tony did.
托尼就是这么做的。
He told a visiting psychiatrist that he liked sending people love letters straight from his heart, and a love letter is a bullet from a gun.
他告诉一位来访的精神科医生，他喜欢直接向人们发送发自内心的情书，而情书就是枪里的子弹。
And if you receive a love letter from him, you'll go straight to Hell.
如果你收到他的情书，你就会直接下地狱。
As more psychiatrists began visiting Tony's cell, he broadened his repertoire to include bits from Hellraiser, A Clockwork Orange , and the David Cronenberg movie Crash , in which people get sexual pleasure from enacting car crashes.
随着越来越多的精神科医生开始探访托尼的牢房，他的治疗范围不断扩大，包括《猛鬼追魂》、《发条橙》和大卫·柯南伯格的电影《撞车》中的片段，在这部电影中，人们通过扮演车祸来获得性快感。
He even told one psychiatrist that he wanted to kill women because he thought looking into their eyes as they died would make him feel normal, a tidbit he got from the book about the serial killer, Ted Bundy, that he found in the prison library.
他甚至告诉一位精神科医生，他想杀死女性，因为他认为在她们死时看着她们的眼睛会让他感觉正常，这是他从监狱图书馆找到的关于连环杀手泰德·邦迪的书中得到的一个花絮。
As Tony told me his story, Brian sat next to us chuckling, dryly, at the lunacy of psychiatrists.
当托尼向我讲述他的故事时，布莱恩坐在我们旁边，对精神科医生的疯狂行为干巴巴地咯咯笑。
I didn't know what to think.
我不知道该怎么想。
Unlike the sad-eyed, medicated patients all around us, Tony did seem completely ordinary and sane.
与我们周围那些眼神悲伤、接受药物治疗的病人不同，托尼看起来确实很普通、很理智。
"They took my word for everything." Tony said.
“他们一切都相信我的话。”托尼说。
Tony said that the day he arrived at Broadmoor, he took one look at the place and realized he'd make a spectacularly bad decision.
托尼说，他到达布罗德莫的那天，他看了一眼这个地方，意识到自己做了一个非常错误的决定。
He urgently asked to speak to the psychiatrists.
他迫切要求与精神科医生交谈。
"I am not mentally ill," he told them.
“我没有精神病，”他告诉他们。
Tony said that it's a lot harder to convince people you're sane than it is to convince them that you're crazy.
托尼说，让人们相信你是理智的比让他们相信你疯了要困难得多。
He found that when you try and act sane in front of people who believe that you aren't, you get self-conscious.
他发现，当你试图在那些认为你不理智的人面前表现得理智时，你就会变得不自在。
Your smile seems too wide.
你的笑容似乎太宽了。
Psychiatrists like to scrutinize body movements, so he had to calculate how to walk like a sane person, even how to dress like one.
精神科医生喜欢仔细观察身体动作，所以他必须计算如何像一个正常人一样走路，甚至如何像一个正常人一样穿着。
He said that he was fully aware that when he decided to wear pinstripe to meet me, he was taking a risk.
他说他完全清楚，当他决定穿细条纹来见我时，他是在冒险。
The look could go either way.
外观可以是任意一种。
"I thought the best way to seem normal," he said, "was to talk to people normally about normal things like football and what's on TV." So that's what he did at first, but in Broadmoor everything is open to interpretation.
“我认为表现得正常的最好方式，”他说，“就是和人们正常地谈论正常的事情，比如足球和电视节目。”这就是他一开始所做的，但在布罗德莫，一切都可以解释。
One time, quite early on, he happened to tell a ward nurse, "Did you know that the US military is training bumble bees to sniff out explosives?" Tony had seen an article about this in New Scientist Magazine.
有一次，很早的时候，他碰巧对一位病房护士说：“你知道美军正在训练大黄蜂来嗅出爆炸物吗？”托尼在《新科学家》杂志上看到过一篇关于此事的文章。
Later, when he read his medical notes, he saw that someone had written, "thinks bees can sniff out explosives."
后来，当他阅读医疗记录时，他看到有人写道：“认为蜜蜂可以嗅出爆炸物。”
At the time, Tony thought that being helpful and polite and volunteering to do things like weeding the hospital garden would be his ticket out of there.
当时，托尼认为乐于助人、彬彬有礼、自愿做一些事情，比如给医院花园除草，就是他离开医院的门票。
But the tactic failed.
但这一策略失败了。
"They saw how well-behaved I was." he told me, "and they decided that I could only behave well in the environment of a psychiatric hospital.
“他们看到我表现得多么乖巧。”他告诉我，“他们决定我只能在精神病院的环境中表现良好。
And this proved I was mad." I instinctively didn't believe Tony about this.
这证明我疯了。”我本能地不相信托尼的说法。
It seemed too absurd.
这似乎太荒唐了。
But later on, he sent me one of his psychiatric reports and, sure enough, it was right there.
但后来，他给我发了一份精神病报告，果然，它就在那里。
"Tony is cheerful and friendly," the report stated.
“托尼性格开朗、友善，”报告称。
"His detention in hospital is preventing deterioration of his condition." It even mentioned weeding the garden.
“他被拘留在医院可以防止他的病情恶化。”它甚至提到给花园除草。
So, after a while, Tony stopped being well-behaved.
所以，过了一段时间，托尼就不乖了。
In any case, he really wasn't fond of hanging around rapists, and pedophiles, and child murderers.
无论如何，他真的不喜欢和强奸犯、恋童癖者和儿童杀人犯混在一起。
It was unsavory and also quite frightening.
这很令人厌恶，也很可怕。
"I've got the Stockwell Strangler on one side of me, and the Tiptoe Through the Tulips Rapist on the other." he said.
“我的一侧是斯托克韦尔绞杀者，另一侧是踮脚穿过郁金香强奸犯。”他说。
The Stockwell Strangler, his name is Kenneth Erskine.
斯托克韦尔绞杀者，他的名字是肯尼思·厄斯金。
"Kenny's OK." said Tony.
“肯尼没事。”托尼说。
"He's-- well, I was about to say he's a harmless character but, clearly, he's not." Tony smiled.
“他——嗯，我本来想说他是一个无害的人物，但很明显，他不是。”托尼笑了。
"One time I grabbed him from behind and put my arm around his neck, and I said, 'This makes a change, doesn't it, Kenny?
“有一次我从后面抓住他，用手臂搂住他的脖子，我说，‘这会带来改变，不是吗，肯尼？
You're not often on this side of the fence, are you mate?' Anyway, they didn't like that at all.
你不常站在栅栏的这一边，是吗，伙计？无论如何，他们根本不喜欢这样。
They said I had no understanding that, that wasn't a funny joke."
他们说我不明白，这不是一个好笑的笑话。”
Tony started withdrawing to his room a lot to avoid his criminally insane neighbors.
托尼开始经常躲在自己的房间里，以避免他那些疯狂的邻居。
He said on the outside this would be a perfectly understandable position, but on the inside, it demonstrates that you're withdrawn and aloof and you have a grandiose sense of your own importance.
他说，从表面上看，这是一个完全可以理解的立场，但从内部来看，这表明你孤僻、冷漠，并且对自己的重要性有一种自大的感觉。
In Broadmoor, not wanting to hang out with pedophiles is a sign of madness.
在布罗德莫，不想和恋童癖者一起出去玩就是疯狂的表现。
Eventually Tony devised a radical scheme.
最终托尼想出了一个激进的计划。
He realized that if you engage with the therapy, it's an indication that you're getting better.
他意识到，如果您接受治疗，就表明您正在好转。
And if you're getting better, they have a legal right to detain you.
如果你的情况有所好转，他们就有合法权利拘留你。
So Tony deduced that if he took no therapy at all, he couldn't get better.
所以托尼推断，如果他根本不接受治疗，他就不会好起来。
He'd be deemed officially untreatable so they'd have to let him go.
他将被正式视为无法治愈，因此他们不得不让他离开。
The problem was that, at Broadmoor, if a nurse sits next to you at lunch and makes small talk, and you make small talk back, that's considered engaging with therapy.
问题是，在布罗德莫，如果一名护士在午餐时坐在你旁边闲聊，而你也闲聊，这被认为是在参与治疗。
So Tony had to tell them all, will you sit at another table?
所以托尼必须告诉他们所有人，你愿意坐在另一张桌子吗？
And that's when they decided he was really going nuts.
就在那时他们认定他真的疯了。
The patient's behavior is getting worse at Broadmoor, said one report.
一份报告称，该患者在布罗德莫尔的行为变得越来越糟。
He does not engage.
他不参与。
And his tactical refusal to engage showed him to be cunning and manipulative.
他在战术上拒绝交战表明他很狡猾且善于操纵。
To top it off, he was suffering from cognitive distortion because he didn't believe he was mad.
最糟糕的是，他患有认知扭曲，因为他不相信自己疯了。
Tony was funny for most of my two hours with him, but towards the end he got sadder.
托尼在我和他在一起的两个小时里大部分时间都很有趣，但到最后他变得更加悲伤。
"I arrived here when I was 17." he said.
“我17岁时来到这里。”他说。
"I'm 29 now.
“我现在29岁了。
I've grown up in Broadmoor, wandering the wards of Broadmoor.
我在布罗德莫长大，在布罗德莫的行政区里徘徊。
This is supposed to be the best years of your life.
这应该是你一生中最美好的时光。
I've seen suicides.
我见过自杀的。
I saw a man take another man's eye out." Tony said just being here can be enough to turn someone crazy.
我看到一个人把另一个人的眼睛挖出来了。”托尼说仅仅在这里就足以让某人发疯。
Then one of the guards called out a word.
随后，一名侍卫喊了一声。
It might have been time.
也许是时候了。
And with barely a goodbye, Tony immediately shot from our table and across the room to the door that led back to his block.
托尼几乎没有说再见，就立即离开我们的桌子，穿过房间，来到通往他所在街区的门前。
All the patients did the same.
所有的病人都做了同样的事情。
It was a display of tremendous, extreme, acute, good behavior.
这是一种巨大的、极端的、敏锐的、良好的行为表现。
Brian's organization, the CCHR, has a museum on Sunset Boulevard called Psychiatry: An Industry of Death.
布莱恩的组织 CCHR 在日落大道上有一个博物馆，名为“精神病学：死亡产业”。
One of their spokespeople is the former Cheers star, Kirstie Alley.
他们的发言人之一是前《Cheers》明星 Kirstie Alley。
The DVD, which I watched when I got home, reveals a catalog of unbelievably horrible abuses perpetrated by psychiatrists throughout history.
我回家后观看了这张 DVD，它揭示了历史上精神病医生所犯下的一系列令人难以置信的可怕虐待行为。
[BEGIN AUDIO PLAYBACK] -After slavery was abolished, psychiatric racism not only persisted, it intensified.
[开始音频播放] - 废除奴隶制后，精神种族主义不仅持续存在，而且愈演愈烈。
[END AUDIO PLAYBACK] Jon Ronson At the outset, it was very convincing.
[音频回放结束] Jon Ronson 一开始就非常有说服力。
Here's the American physician, Samuel Cartright, identifying in 1851, a mental disorder, drapetomania, evident only in slaves.
1851 年，美国医生塞缪尔·卡特赖特 (Samuel Cartright) 发现了一种精神障碍，即“悬垂癖”，仅在奴隶中出现。
The sole symptom of this disorder was the desire to run away from slavery.
这种疾病的唯一症状是渴望逃离奴隶制。
The cure was whipping the devil out of them as a preventative measure.
作为一种预防措施，治疗方法就是把魔鬼从他们身上赶走。
Here is archive of the neurologist Walter Freeman hammering an ice pick through a patient's eye socket sometime during the 1950s.
这是 20 世纪 50 年代神经科医生沃尔特·弗里曼 (Walter Freeman) 用冰锥锤击患者眼窝的档案。
Freeman would travel America in his loboto-mobile, it's a sort of camper van, enthusiastically lobotomizing wherever he was allowed.
弗里曼会开着他的脑白质流动车环游美国，这是一种露营车，只要允许，他就会热情地进行脑白质切除术。
[BEGIN AUDIO PLAYBACK] -Hacking apart his patient's brains on stage or sometimes right there in the vehicle.
[开始音频播放] - 在舞台上或有时在车内砍碎病人的大脑。
[END AUDIO PLAYBACK] Here's a psychiatrist actually electrocuting a kitten.
[音频播放结束] 这是一位精神科医生实际上电死了一只小猫。
Well, you see black and white footage of a kitten being electrocuted.
好吧，你会看到一只小猫被电死的黑白镜头。
And the inference is that the pair of hands responsible belongs to a psychiatrist.
由此推论，负责的那双手属于精神科医生。
By this point in the DVD, I wouldn't put anything past those bastards.
到了DVD中的这一点，我就不会再把那些混蛋放在一边了。
[BEGIN AUDIO PLAYBACK] -Psychiatrists commit one third of the sex-related offenses committed by doctors.
[开始音频播放] - 医生犯下的与性有关的罪行中有三分之一是由精神科医生犯下的。
[END AUDIO PLAYBACK] The DVD, eventually, spirals into a big, anti-psychiatry conspiracy theory.
[音频播放结束] DVD 最终演变成一个巨大的反精神病学阴谋论。
Psychiatry is responsible for 9/11, The Holocaust, Columbine, and its ultimate secret master plan is to enslave the world.
精神病学对9/11、大屠杀、哥伦拜恩负有责任，其终极秘密总体计划是奴役世界。
The commentary says in every city, every state, every country, you will find psychiatrists committing rape, sexual abuse, murder and fraud.
评论说，在每个城市、每个州、每个国家，你都会发现精神科医生犯下强奸、性虐待、谋杀和欺诈的罪行。
A few days passed.
几天过去了。
Then a letter arrived from Tony.
然后托尼寄来了一封信。
This place is awful at nighttime, John, he wrote.
约翰，这个地方晚上很糟糕，他写道。
Words cannot express the atmosphere.
言语无法表达当时的气氛。
I noticed that the wild daffodils were in bloom this morning.
我注意到今天早上野生水仙花开了。
I felt like running through them, as I used to in my childhood with my mom.
我想跑过它们，就像我小时候和妈妈一起跑一样。
This is when I got to see Tony's files.
这是我看到托尼的档案的时候。
It included them in the package.
它将它们包含在包中。
They confirmed all the crazy stories he'd told the psychiatrists back in '98 when he was trying to get out of a prison sentence.
他们证实了他在 98 年试图摆脱牢狱之灾时告诉精神科医生的所有疯狂故事。
It also included a description of the crime he'd committed.
它还包括对他所犯罪行的描述。
The victim was a homeless man, an alcoholic, who happened to be passing.
受害者是一名无家可归的人，也是一名酒鬼，他恰好路过。
He apparently made an inappropriate comment about one of Tony's friends.
他显然对托尼的一位朋友发表了不恰当的评论。
Tony, who was drunk, and stoned, and 17, kicked him seven or eight times in the stomach and groin.
17 岁的托尼喝醉了，喝醉了，他踢了他的腹部和腹股沟七八次。
He left him, walked back to his friends and had another drink.
他离开了他，走回朋友身边，又喝了一杯。
He then returned to the man, who still lying motionless on the floor, and he head butted him and kicked him again.
随后，他又回到了躺在地上一动不动的男子身边，用头撞了他，又踢了他一脚。
He kicked him again, in the face, and walked away.
他又踢了他一脚，踢在他脸上，然后走开了。
I felt the ground shift slightly under my feet.
我感觉脚下的地面轻微移动。
I remember that list of the movies Tony plagiarized to demonstrate that he was mentally ill.
我记得托尼抄袭的电影清单，以证明他患有精神疾病。
One was A Clockwork Orange , which begins with a gang of thugs kicking a homeless man while he was on the floor.
其中之一是《发条橙》，故事开头是一群暴徒踢了一个倒在地板上的无家可归的人。
My phone rang.
我的电话响了。
I recognized the number.
我认出了这个号码。
It was Tony.
是托尼。
I didn't answer it.
我没有回答。
A month passed.
一个月过去了。
Then an email I'd been waiting for arrived.
然后我一直在等待的一封电子邮件到达了。
It was from Professor Anthony Maden, he's the head clinician at Tony's unit.
这是安东尼·马登教授发来的，他是托尼所在单位的首席临床医生。
Tony had given me his name.
托尼告诉了我他的名字。
Anthony Maden wouldn't agree to go on tape, but he was happy to answer my questions in writing.
安东尼·马登不同意录音，但他很乐意以书面形式回答我的问题。
Tony, the email read, did get here by faking mental illness because he thought it would be preferable to prison.
电子邮件中写道，托尼确实是通过假装精神疾病来到这里的，因为他认为这比坐牢更好。
I felt a huge surge of relief and warmer towards Tony again.
我再次感受到托尼的巨大安慰和温暖。
But next line in the email wasn't so great.
但电子邮件中的下一行不太好。
It said, most psychiatrists who've assessed him, and there have been a lot, have concluded that he is not mentally ill, but suffers from a psychopathic personality disorder.
据称，大多数对他进行过评估的精神科医生得出的结论是，他并没有精神疾病，而是患有精神变态人格障碍。
I looked at the email.
我查看了电子邮件。
Tony's a psychopath, I thought.
我想托尼是个精神病患者。
Tony rang again.
托尼又响了。
I didn't answer.
我没有回答。
I emailed Professor Maden.
我给马登教授发了电子邮件。
Isn't that like that scene in the movie, Ghost , when Whoopi Goldberg pretends to be a psychic, and then it turns out that she actually can talk to the dead?
这不就像电影《人鬼情未了》中乌比·戈德堡假装自己是通灵者，结果发现她真的可以和死人说话的那个场景吗？
No, he emailed back.
不，他回了邮件。
It isn't like that Whoopi Goldberg scene at all.
这根本不像乌比·戈德堡的场景。
Tony faked mental illness.
托尼假装患有精神疾病。
Mental illness can include symptoms like hallucinations and delusions.
精神疾病可能包括幻觉和妄想等症状。
Mental illness comes and goes.
精神疾病来来去去。
It can get better with medication.
通过药物治疗可以好转。
Tony is a psychopath.
托尼是个精神病患者。
That doesn't come and go.
那不是来来去去的。
That is how the person is.
人就是这样的。
I wondered what the difference was between a psychopath and a sociopath.
我想知道精神病患者和反社会者之间有什么区别。
And the answer is, there isn't really one.
答案是，真的没有。
The terms are, pretty much, used interchangeably.
这些术语几乎可以互换使用。
A psychopath is someone who doesn't have the part of the brain that provides conscience, and empathy, and remorse.
精神病患者的大脑中没有提供良心、同理心和悔恨的部分。
Professor Maden said faking mental illness to try to get a cushy hospital sentence is the, typically, deceitful act of a psychopath.
马登教授表示，假装患有精神疾病以试图获得轻松的住院刑罚是精神病患者典型的欺骗行为。
Tony faking his brain going wrong was the act of someone whose brain had gone wrong.
托尼假装自己的大脑出了问题，这是大脑出了问题的人的行为。
He wrote, of course, you can always argue, as with any mental disorder, that the very concept is invalid.
他写道，当然，就像对待任何精神障碍一样，你总是可以争辩说这个概念本身是无效的。
But if one accepts that there is such an entity, Tony has it.
但如果人们承认存在这样一个实体，那么托尼就拥有了它。
He added that if Tony had just agreed to have treatment, he'd have been out years ago.
他补充说，如果托尼同意接受治疗，他几年前就已经出院了。
But, he said, claiming you're untreatable in order to get out is typical of a psychopath.
但是，他说，声称自己无法治愈才能逃脱是典型的精神病患者。
Tony swears he isn't a psychopath.
托尼发誓他不是一个精神病患者。
He says he feels lots of remorse for what he did, but when he expresses remorse, psychiatrists claim it's part of a psychopath's make up to say they're remorseful when they're not.
他说他对自己的所作所为感到非常悔恨，但当他表达悔恨时，精神科医生声称这是精神病患者的一部分性格，他们会说自己很悔恨，而实际上他们并不悔恨。
He says when he faked mental illness back in 1980, he must have stupidly included some fake psychopathic stuff in there too.
他说，当他在 1980 年假装精神疾病时，他一定愚蠢地在其中也加入了一些假的精神变态的东西。
He says trying to prove you're not a psychopath is even harder than trying to prove you're not mentally ill.
他说，试图证明你不是精神病患者比试图证明你没有精神病更难。
But I didn't feel quite so persuaded by Tony now.
但现在我觉得托尼没那么被说服了。
His story didn't seem like such a darkly absurd catch-22 situation anymore.
他的故事看起来不再像第二十二条军规那样黑暗荒谬的情况了。
I felt I persuaded by Professor Maden instead.
我觉得我反而被马登教授说服了。
And I think I would have continued feeling that way about Tony if I hadn't spoken to Professor Sashi Sashidharan.
我想，如果我没有和 Sashi Sashidharan 教授交谈过，我对托尼的感觉还会继续下去。
If you give me just a second, John, I will just look at what I wrote down at the time.
约翰，如果你给我一点时间，我会看看我当时写下的内容。
Professor Sashidharan is an independent consultant psychiatrist who's met Tony lots of times.
萨希达兰教授是一位独立的心理咨询师，他与托尼见过很多次。
Brian put us together.
布莱恩把我们聚到了一起。
And when I phone him, he seemed quite reluctant to talk at first.
当我给他打电话时，他一开始似乎不太愿意说话。
"Are you a Scientologist?" he asked me.
“你是山达基教徒吗？”他问我。
He sounded a bit tongue-tied.
他听起来有点张口结舌。
"No." I said, equally tongue-tied.
“不。”我同样张口结舌地说。
"Are you?" "No." he said.
“你是？” “不。”他说。
We both relaxed.
我们都放松了。
Professor Sashidharan told tell me that, at one point, Tony was seen as one of the most dangerous men in Broadmoor.
萨希达兰教授告诉我，托尼一度被视为布罗德莫最危险的人之一。
But Professor Sashidharan said he wasn't surprised that a young man would behave this way.
但萨希达兰教授表示，他对年轻人做出这样的行为并不感到惊讶。
In fact, the diagnosis of personality disorder should not be made in somebody who is as young as 16 or 17 because, you know, it's too early to say.
事实上，人格障碍的诊断不应该在 16 或 17 岁的人身上做出，因为，你知道，现在下结论还为时过早。
Unfortunately, in Tony's case, the other reason why he attracted a diagnosis of personality disorder so quickly was that there was no longer any evidence of the mental illness doctors thought that he had once he came to Broadmoor.
不幸的是，在托尼的案例中，他如此迅速地被诊断为人格障碍的另一个原因是，一旦他来到布罗德莫尔，医生认为他患有精神疾病的证据就不再存在。
He was not getting treatment for any mental illness.
他没有接受任何精神疾病的治疗。
The original symptoms, that the doctors thought they had identified when he was in prison, had all melted away.
医生认为他们在他入狱时发现的最初症状已经全部消失。
So they could no longer argue that he had a mental illness, therefore, he should be in hospital.
所以他们不能再争论他有精神疾病，因此，他应该住院。
So personality disorder diagnosis is quickly available to then justify his detention in a psychiatric hospital.
因此，人格障碍的诊断很快就可以证明他被拘留在精神病院是合理的。
And that's an honestly held view, it just happens to be the wrong view, in my opinion.
这是一个诚实的观点，在我看来，它恰好是错误的观点。
Would you have a message for somebody who's just committed some grievous bodily harm and they're thinking, maybe I should fake mental illness because I bet it'll be more cushy in a hospital than in a prison.
你有什么话要送给那些刚刚遭受严重身体伤害的人吗？他们在想，也许我应该假装患有精神疾病，因为我敢打赌，在医院里会比在监狱里更轻松。
What would you recommend they do?
你会建议他们做什么？
Unfortunately, it's a far too common occurrence for young people to claim-- well, not just young people, many people-- in my experience with speaking with these individuals, without exception, all of them will regret it, getting into a psychiatric hospital, because it's very easy to get into these places, but much, much more difficult to get out of those places.
不幸的是，这种情况对年轻人来说太常见了——嗯，不仅仅是年轻人，很多人——根据我与这些人交谈的经验，无一例外，他们所有人都会后悔，进入精神病院，因为进入这些地方很容易，但离开这些地方要困难得多。
Brian and I visit Tony one more time.
布莱恩和我再次拜访托尼。
Brian says he has a question he wants to ask him.
布莱恩说他有个问题想问他。
Tony's not wearing the pinstripe this time, but he's still dressed a lot better than the other patients.
托尼这次没有穿细条纹衣服，但他的穿着仍然比其他病人好得多。
He sits down.
他坐下来。
Brian leans forward.
布莱恩向前倾身。
"Do you feel remorse?" he asks Tony.
“你感到悔恨吗？”他问托尼。
"My remorse," Tony immediately replies, "is that I've not just screwed up my victim's life, but also my own life, and my family's life.
“我的悔恨，”托尼立即回答道，“是我不仅搞砸了受害者的生活，也搞砸了我自己的生活，还有我家人的生活。
And that's my remorse.
这就是我的悔恨。
All the things that could have been done in my life, I feel bad about that every day."
我一生中本可以做的所有事情，我每天都为此感到难过。”
At this moment, Tony does sound to me like a man with remorse.
此时此刻，托尼对我来说确实像是一个悔恨的人。
And I decide, on the spot, that I will not talk to any more psychiatrists because I don't want them changing my mind about him again.
我当场决定不再与任何精神科医生交谈，因为我不想让他们再次改变我对他的看法。
Brian says Tony's story demonstrates that no two psychiatrists can agree on anything, and they, basically, just make it up as they go along.
布莱恩说，托尼的故事表明，没有两个精神科医生可以在任何事情上达成一致，基本上，他们只是边做边编。
I think his story demonstrates that it's a huge mistake to screw with psychiatrists.
我认为他的故事表明，与精神科医生打交道是一个巨大的错误。
And you should be careful not to tell people you're crazy because you might turn out to be way too convincing about it.
你应该小心，不要告诉别人你疯了，因为你可能会显得太有说服力。
Tony's life might be about to get better.
托尼的生活可能会变得更好。
Professor Maden emailed to say Tony's been in Broadmoor far too long for a crime that was not the most serious.
马登教授通过电子邮件表示，托尼在布罗德莫尔呆得太久了，这并不是最严重的犯罪行为。
And he's hoping to move him down to a nicer, medium-security unit.
他希望把他调到一个更好、中等安全级别的单位。
And then, maybe, even a community placement.
然后，也许甚至是社区安置。
I thought Tony would be happy about this, but when I ask him, he says he'll believe it when he sees it, and they've been talking about this kind of thing for years.
我以为托尼会对此感到高兴，但当我问他时，他说当他看到它时他就会相信，而且他们多年来一直在谈论这种事情。
And then a guard calls time.
然后一名警卫宣布时间到。
And with barely a goodbye, Tony obediently rushes across the Wellness Center and is gone.
托尼几乎没有道别，就顺从地冲过健康中心，离开了。
Jon Ronson, he's putting together this story and others into a new book that'll probably be called The Psychopath Test .
乔恩·罗森（Jon Ronson），他正在将这个故事和其他故事整理成一本新书，可能会被称为《精神病测试》。
Another of his books, The Men Who Stare at Goats , is about to be released as a movie starring George Clooney.
他的另一本书《盯着山羊的人》即将以乔治·克鲁尼主演的电影形式上映。
Act 2, Disorder In The Court.
第二幕，法庭混乱。
So there are tons of non-lawyers representing themselves in court, everywhere.
因此，世界各地都有大量非律师在法庭上代表自己。
But the one area where nearly everybody uses a lawyer is criminal cases.
但几乎每个人都聘请律师的领域是刑事案件。
So it's rare for a non-lawyer to defend himself in a criminal matter, and it's even more rare for him to win.
所以非律师在刑事案件中为自己辩护的情况很少见，而胜诉的情况就更罕见了。
Well, back in April, a man named Jorge Cruz went into court on a drug charge: possession with intent to distribute.
好吧，早在四月份，一个名叫豪尔赫·克鲁兹（Jorge Cruz）的男子就因持有毒品并意图分发毒品而进入法庭。
He admitted to the jury that he was a heroin addict.
他向陪审团承认自己是一名海洛因成瘾者。
He fumbled around.
他摸索着。
He swore in court, and he won.
他在法庭上宣誓，结果他赢了。
He was up against an experienced and capable prosecutor who has won over 500 cases in the last five years, an Assistant District Attorney in Albany, New York named Francisco Calderon.
他面对的是一位经验丰富、能力强的检察官，他是纽约州奥尔巴尼的助理地方检察官弗朗西斯科·卡尔德隆（Francisco Calderon），他在过去五年里赢得了 500 多起案件。
When we called Calderon to invite him onto the radio show to talk about the case, he laughed and asked why couldn't we have him speak about one of the many cases that he's actually won?
当我们打电话给卡尔德隆邀请他参加广播节目谈论这个案件时，他笑着问我们为什么不能让他谈论他实际上赢得的众多案件中的一个？
But he was game to come on the air and discuss what happened in this case.
但他愿意在节目中讨论这起案件中发生的事情。
We weren't able to reach Jorge Cruz.
我们无法联系到豪尔赫·克鲁兹。
Francisco Calderon says, initially, he was pretty confident about winning this case.
弗朗西斯科·卡尔德隆 (Francisco Calderon) 表示，最初他对赢得此案非常有信心。
Initially, you would think that this is going to be a slam dunk, and it became a little more uncomfortable as we went along.
最初，你会认为这将是一个灌篮，随着我们的进展，它变得有点不舒服。
Now, let me ask you to review the evidence against Jorge Cruz.
现在，让我请你审查针对豪尔赫·克鲁兹的证据。
What'd you have?
你有什么？
Certainly.
当然。
Basically, the police had received a call for a woman being held against her will.
基本上，警方接到了关于一名妇女被违背意愿拘留的电话。
Upon arriving at that address, they found the woman, who was there voluntarily.
到达该地址后，他们找到了自愿在那里的女子。
But at same time, they encountered two men that were there with her, Juan Cruz and a Jorge Cruz.
但与此同时，他们遇到了和她在一起的两名男子，胡安·克鲁兹和豪尔赫·克鲁兹。
Upon entering the room, they observed what they believed to be drug paraphernalia.
进入房间后，他们发现了他们认为是吸毒用具的东西。
At that point in time, they secured all the parties, went and applied for a search warrant, and then executed a search warrant on the hotel room.
当时，他们把所有当事人都安定下来，去申请搜查令，然后对酒店房间执行了搜查令。
This is a Motel 6.
这是 6 号汽车旅馆。
Underneath one of the mattresses, they discovered in excess of four ounces of cocaine and a couple bags of heroin.
在其中一个床垫下，他们发现了超过四盎司的可卡因和几袋海洛因。
Wholesale, you're talking about maybe $5,000.
批发的话，你说的可能是 5,000 美元。
If you broke it down to individual doses, you could go easily up to $10,000 to $15,000.
如果你将其分解为单个剂量，你可以轻松达到 10,000 至 15,000 美元。
When this went to court, early in the case, Juan Cruz-- who is Jorge's brother, by the way-- and the woman from the hotel room, both, pled guilty.
当案件进入法庭时，胡安·克鲁兹（顺便说一句，他是豪尔赫的兄弟）和酒店房间里的女人都认罪了。
And that left Jorge Cruz, who declared that he would be defending himself, which suddenly made it a harder case for the prosecutor.
豪尔赫·克鲁兹 (Jorge Cruz) 宣布，他将为自己辩护，这突然使检察官的案件变得更加困难。
When it was all three of them together, the prosecutor could argue that all three of them possessed the drugs together and convict them that way.
当他们三个人在一起时，检察官可以辩称他们三个人一起持有毒品并以此方式定罪。
But now Jorge Cruz could get up and say it was the other two, it wasn't him.
但现在豪尔赫·克鲁兹可以站起来说是另外两个人干的，不是他干的。
His defense was that listen, I'm a user.
他的辩护是，听着，我是一名用户。
I could never afford that amount of cocaine.
我永远买不起那么多的可卡因。
I was just there to party, and not for the cocaine, but for the heroine.
我只是去参加聚会，不是为了可卡因，而是为了女主角。
And so, basically, it was more of a sympathy, feel sorry for me, type of approach: that he had no money, he had no transportation, so he could never have possessed that amount of cocaine.
所以，基本上，这更多的是一种同情，为我感到难过，一种方式：他没有钱，他没有交通工具，所以他永远不可能拥有那么多的可卡因。
He was going to spend time with his grandkids that morning.
那天早上他打算和孙子们一起度过。
And I'm not a lawyer, I'm just here because I want to tell you my story.
我不是律师，我来这里只是想告诉你我的故事。
Now he cursed while he was serving as his own lawyer?
现在自己当律师的时候还骂人？
Sure.
当然。
I mean, there were times where the police had tried to link different pieces of evidence to him, and his attitude was like, that's bull [BLEEP].
我的意思是，有时警察试图将不同的证据与他联系起来，而他的态度就像是，那是公牛[BLEEP]。
Oh, excuse me.
哦，对不起。
Sorry about that.
对此感到抱歉。
We can beep that out.
我们可以用蜂鸣声把它发出来。
Francisco Calderon [LAUGHS] Sorry about that.
弗朗西斯科·卡尔德隆（Francisco Calderon）[笑]对此感到抱歉。
Holy cow.
圣牛。
I've read that, in cases like this, the pro se lawyer often turns to the prosecution for guidance.
我读到，在这种情况下，自诉律师经常向检方寻求指导。
And I wondered if there was any point where he turned to you for guidance, or where you found yourself coaching him on the right way to do something?
我想知道他是否在任何时候向你寻求指导，或者你发现自己在指导他以正确的方式做某事？
No. Not at all.
不，一点也不。
In this particular case, the judge had an attorney sit with him.
在这个特殊案件中，法官请了一名律师与他坐在一起。
And did that person actually give him a lot of advice?
而那个人真的给了他很多建议吗？
I don't know if he gave him a lot of advice.
不知道他有没有给他很多建议。
He gave some pointers as to what to do at different points in time of the trial.
他就审判的不同时间点应该做什么提出了一些建议。
But I believe that Jorge Cruz had in his mind what his defense was going to be and, basically, he just flopped around.
但我相信豪尔赫·克鲁兹心里已经清楚自己的防守是什么，但基本上，他只是失败了。
And my goal was to try to keep him intact, as much as possible, within the bounds of the law.
我的目标是在法律范围内尽可能保持他的完整。
What do you mean it was your goal to keep him intact?
你的目标是让他完好无损，这是什么意思？
Explain that.
解释一下。
Well, there's certain things you can and cannot do in the courtroom.
嗯，有些事情你可以在法庭上做，有些事情不能做。
If a person is representing themselves, they're not going to abide by the rules of evidence.
如果一个人代表自己，他们就不会遵守证据规则。
And my goal was to try to make sure that he didn't say things that would prejudice the case.
我的目标是尽力确保他不会说出有损案件的言论。
What were some of the things that he started to say that were improper that you had to stop him on?
他开始说哪些不恰当的话而你必须阻止他？
Well, he would ask, like, one of the co-defendant witnesses, "Do you think I'm guilty?" or "You knew that I wasn't using drugs." So you can't phrase questions that way or talk to the guilt or innocence of his standing.
好吧，他会问一位同案被告证人，“你认为我有罪吗？”或“你知道我没有吸毒。”所以你不能以这种方式提出问题，也不能谈论他的立场是有罪还是无罪。
When it's time for you to tell your portion of the story, it's when you're actually testifying, not when other witnesses are testifying, which he did throughout the whole trial, basically.
当你需要讲述你的故事部分时，是在你实际作证的时候，而不是在其他证人作证的时候，基本上他在整个审判过程中都是这样做的。
So how many times did you have to say objection?
那么你有多少次反对过呢？
Oh, easily 50 times.
哦，轻松50次。
I mean, there's only so much that you can do without being the bully.
我的意思是，在不成为恶霸的情况下，你能做的就只有这么多了。
Obviously I don't want to give the impression to the jury that I'm trying to push this guy around.
显然我不想给陪审团留下我在试图摆布这个人的印象。
And this really gets to the heart of your problem in prosecuting the case.
这确实触及了起诉此案的核心问题。
You don't want to seem like an ass cutting this guy off all the time, over and over, to the jury because that'll lose the jury's sympathy.
你不想让陪审团觉得自己像个混蛋，一遍又一遍地打断这个家伙，因为那样会失去陪审团的同情。
No question about it.
毫无疑问。
And it's a fine line.
这是一条很好的线。
I tried to explain to the jurors that I'm not trying to prevent Mr. Cruz from telling his story, but there's a way that you can tell it.
我试图向陪审员解释，我并不是想阻止克鲁兹先生讲述他的故事，但有一种方法可以让你讲述它。
Damn.
该死。
Francisco Calderon Like a prime example of one thing that stands out to me that he said was, "You know, I'm going to have to do 10 years in prison for this." That never comes out at a trial, the amount of time or exposure that someone may get for the commission of a crime.
弗朗西斯科·卡尔德隆（Francisco Calderon）对我来说最突出的一件事就是他说的一个典型例子，“你知道，我将因此被判入狱 10 年。”某人因犯罪而可能获得的时间或曝光量永远不会在审判中显现出来。
Right.
正确的。
It's a separate part of a trial.
这是审判的一个单独部分。
First you determine guilt or innocence, and then you figure out the sentence.
首先你确定有罪或无罪，然后再计算出刑罚。
That is correct.
这是正确的。
But when a defendant, while testifying, blurts out that I could do 10 years for this crime, it has an effect upon a jury.
但当一名被告在作证时脱口而出说我可以为此罪判十年徒刑时，它就会对陪审团产生影响。
You cannot un-ring a bell.
你无法取消铃声。
Was there any particular moment where you just thought, oh man.
有没有什么特别的时刻你会想，天啊。
Suddenly where you thought, I might not win this, this is going bad?
突然你想到，我可能赢不了这场比赛，事情会变得很糟糕吗？
There was a moment, and it wasn't until after closing arguments that-- I wasn't sure if I had connected with the jury in the manner that I was used to connecting with them.
有那么一刻，直到结案陈词之后——我不确定我是否以我习惯的方式与陪审团建立了联系。
And as soon as I sat down and the judge began to give his instructions, I felt it.
当我坐下来，法官开始发出指示时，我就感觉到了。
There's a feeling, and it's very difficult to put in words and explain.
有一种感觉，很难用语言来表达和解释。
No. No. I understand.
不，不，我明白。
You feel like you have their attention.
你感觉你引起了他们的注意。
You can tell they're with you.
你可以看出他们和你在一起。
No question about it.
毫无疑问。
And there is something, there is a connection that you're able to form.
有一些东西，有一种你能够形成的联系。
Whereas, in this particular case, I felt that there was a lack of connection with the jury that I've had in the past.
然而，在这个特殊的案件中，我觉得我与过去的陪审团缺乏联系。
Do you think if Cruz had a lawyer, it would have been easier to convict him?
你认为如果克鲁兹有律师，对他定罪会更容易吗？
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Absolutely, because I don't think there would have been that stigma of the DA pushing and pushing.
当然，因为我认为地方检察官的不断推动不会带来耻辱。
When you have an opposing counsel, it's expected that there is going to be give and take.
当你有一个反对的律师时，预计会有妥协。
Right.
正确的。
If you're up against another lawyer, it's like watching two boxers box each other.
如果你面对另一位律师，就像看着两个拳击手互相拳击一样。
And, like I indicated, there's expected to be give and take.
而且，正如我所指出的，预计会有妥协和索取。
And in this instance, there really was not, and there's nothing sympathetic about what I'm doing here.
在这种情况下，确实没有，而且我在这里所做的事情没有任何同情心。
Did you know what the court-appointed attorney was going to do as his defense?
你知道法庭指定的律师将如何为他辩护吗？
Did he talk to you about it afterwards?
后来他有跟你谈过这件事吗？
I'm sure it would have been along the same lines, they just would not have taken the same approach.
我确信他们也会遵循同样的路线，只是不会采取相同的方法。
I think he would have been a little more cautious in trying to limit Mr. Cruz from testifying, I think.
我认为他在试图限制克鲁兹先生作证时会更加谨慎。
Wait.
等待。
You're saying that a professional defense attorney would have not wanted him to talk too much because he wouldn't have wanted him to seem like a big drug addict or something?
你是说一个专业的辩护律师不希望他说太多，因为他不希望他看起来像个吸毒成瘾的人什么的？
Correct.
正确的。
Ira Glass And that turned out to be the thing that probably won him the case.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 事实证明，这可能是他赢得官司的原因。
Well, again, had it been with an attorney representing him and he took the stand, he would not have been able to testify throughout the trial as he did.
好吧，再说一遍，如果有律师代表他并且他出庭作证，他就无法像他那样在整个审判过程中作证。
Well, in a way, he won exactly the only way that he could win.
嗯，在某种程度上，他赢了正是他能赢的唯一方式。
He won based on a personal appeal, by just winning people over with his personal story.
他的胜利是基于个人吸引力，通过他的个人故事赢得人们的支持。
Yeah, but that's the part that's so troubling here, because I don't view him as a person that would win someone over.
是的，但这就是这里令人不安的部分，因为我不认为他是一个会赢得某人支持的人。
So that's a troubling part of this whole case in that he didn't have that warm personality that could make a juror want to gravitate towards him.
所以这是整个案件的一个令人不安的部分，因为他没有那种温暖的性格，可以让陪审员想要被他吸引。
And maybe some of the jurors could maybe relate to him, but that's the most difficult part of this case for me in that I didn't find him to be a sympathetic figure.
也许一些陪审员可能会与他产生共鸣，但这对我来说是这个案子最困难的部分，因为我不认为他是一个富有同情心的人物。
I just still haven't fully grasped that.
我只是还没有完全理解这一点。
Was it galling to you that you could be beaten by an amateur?
你会因为自己被业余选手打败而感到难堪吗？
Well, certainly.
嗯，当然。
I mean, I have a great deal of pride in what I do, so to say that I wasn't a little miffed at it or unhappy would be an understatement.
我的意思是，我对自己所做的事情感到非常自豪，所以说我对此没有一点恼怒或不高兴是轻描淡写的。
Certainly, I was not very happy about it, and to this day I'm not happy about it.
当然，我对此并不是很高兴，直到今天我仍然不满意。
Francisco Calderon is an Assistant District Attorney in Albany, New York.
弗朗西斯科·卡尔德隆 (Francisco Calderon) 是纽约州奥尔巴尼的助理地方检察官。
Coming up, a student teacher decides to forgo all the rules and administer frontier justice that he invents on the fly.
接下来，一名见习老师决定放弃所有规则，执行他临时发明的边境正义。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
This is This American Life from Ira Glass.
这就是艾拉·格拉斯的《美国生活》。
Each week on our show, of course, we feature a theme.
当然，每周我们的节目都会有一个主题。
We bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
我们为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's show, pro se: stories of people representing themselves in all kinds of troubles in court and out of court.
今天的节目，散文：人们在法庭内外的各种麻烦中代表自己的故事。
We've arrived at Act 3 of our program.
我们已经到了计划的第三幕。
Act 3, Swak Down.
第三幕，镇压。
This is a story recorded on stage by Jeff Simmermon at the storytelling series The Moth.
这是杰夫·西默蒙 (Jeff Simmermon) 在讲故事系列剧《飞蛾》中在舞台上录制的故事。
We're going to hear the story, and then Jeff Simmermon's going to come into the studio with me.
我们将听这个故事，然后杰夫·西默蒙将和我一起进入录音室。
A warning to listeners: there's nothing dirty or anything in the story, but some of the content might not be right for little kids.
警告听众：故事中没有任何肮脏或任何东西，但某些内容可能不适合小孩子。
So it's some time in college, and I'm going through that first big break-up that everybody goes through, that sort of marks their transition into adulthood.
这是大学里的一段时间，我正在经历每个人都会经历的第一次大分手，这标志着他们向成年的过渡。
And I'm just sitting there on my bed.
我只是坐在床上。
And I've got my face in my hands and I'm listening to The Smiths over and over again and just torturing myself and just going, "ooooh."
我双手捂着脸，一遍又一遍地听史密斯乐队的歌，一边折磨自己，一边“哦哦”。
And my little sister comes into my room and sits down on the bed next to me.
我的妹妹走进我的房间，坐在我旁边的床上。
And she just gives me this huge hug.
她只是给了我一个大大的拥抱。
She puts her arms around me, and she takes a Kleenex out, and dabs my tears, and said, "Jeff, listen.
她用双臂搂住我，拿出一张面巾纸，擦掉我的眼泪，然后说：“杰夫，听着。
Bitches gonna come and bitches gonna go.
母狗会来，母狗也会走。
But you've been there for me since the day I was born, and that kind of love, that's forever.
但从我出生那天起，你就一直在我身边，这种爱，是永远的。
I'm gonna love you till after you are dead, and I am not lying."
我会爱你直到你死后，我没有说谎。”
[APPLAUSE AND LAUGHTER] And then, she continues and says, "And I just wanted you to know that I have always hated that bitch.
[掌声和笑声] 然后，她继续说道，“我只是想让你知道我一直讨厌那个婊子。
And if you want, I'll be happy, more than happy, to go around to her crib and whip her ass with a dog chain one time.
如果你愿意的话，我会很高兴，非常高兴，绕到她的婴儿床上，用狗链抽她的屁股一次。
You just say the word." I just took the hug.
你只要说一句话就可以了。”我刚刚接受了拥抱。
What you need to understand is that we have the same parents.
你需要明白的是我们有同样的父母。
We grew up in the same home.
我们在同一个家里长大。
She was in the 9th grade.
她当时上九年级。
Because while I was off at college studying art and listening to Sonic Youth, she and her friends were on another track.
因为当我在大学学习艺术并听 Sonic Youth 时，她和她的朋友们却走在另一条轨道上。
And she was invited to join a gang, but we've never been into group things, she just freelanced.
她被邀请加入一个帮派，但我们从来没有参加过团体活动，她只是自由职业者。
And she and her friends used to break into rich people's houses.
她和她的朋友们经常闯入富人的房子。
And they would drink 40s, and take pictures of it, and leave the 40s and whatever, and just leave.
他们会喝 40 年代的酒，然后拍照，然后离开 40 年代的酒之类的，然后就离开了。
[LAUGHTER] And her boyfriend at the time, his winter coat and his mustache had this inversely proportional size relationship where his coat, sort of, advertised a faraway hockey team and he had this nasty little weasel penis draped across his top lip.
[笑声] 她当时的男朋友，他的冬衣和小胡子的大小成反比关系，他的外套有点像是在宣传一支遥远的曲棍球队，而他的上唇上挂着一个令人讨厌的小黄鼠狼阴茎。
And just something in his eyes was that dangerous combination of weak and predatory.
在他眼里，有一种东西是弱者与掠夺者的危险结合体。
And so I was working as an art teacher at her high school as a practicum thing in order to graduate.
因此，为了毕业，我在她的高中担任艺术老师作为实习。
And I'm walking down the hall one day, and I hear the laughter that I was very accustomed to hearing from back when I was in high school.
有一天，我走在大厅里，听到了我高中时很习惯听到的笑声。
And I see her boyfriend and some of his similarly parka'd friends shoving somebody into a locker.
我看到她的男朋友和他的一些同样穿着大衣的朋友把一个人塞进储物柜里。
And they're just shoving him, and laughing, and shoving him, and laughing.
他们只是推搡他，大笑，推搡他，大笑。
And I get up to them, and I'm just kind of sheep-dogging kids off to class.
我跟上他们，就像一群追着羊去上课的孩子。
And I'm like, what is this bull [BLEEP].
我想，这是什么公牛 [BLEEP]。
Go on!
继续！
Go to class!
去上课吧！
Go!
去！
Go!
去！
Go!
去！
And I look, and the kid that they're shoving up against the locker is my little sister.
我一看，他们推到储物柜上的那个孩子是我的妹妹。
And she has that look on her face, that I know so well, where her jaw is really set and her eyes are huge and wet.
她脸上的表情我很熟悉，她的下巴很紧，眼睛又大又湿。
And she is definitely not crying.
而且她绝对没有哭。
She is fine.
她很好。
And having been responsible for that look in the past, I know what it takes to provoke that.
我过去曾对这种表情负责，所以我知道怎样才能激起这种表情。
And I was like, are you OK?
我当时想，你还好吗？
Are you OK?
你还好吗？
Do you need me to do something?
你需要我做点什么吗？
And she's like, "I'm fine!
她说：“我很好！
[BLEEP] I gotta go!
[哔]我得走了！
[BLEEP]!" and then just leaves.
[哔]！”然后就离开了。
And I just, instantly, burn with a white-hot rage.
我立刻就怒火中烧。
And I have all sorts of elaborate and horrific revenge fantasies that involve roping the dude to the back of my bumper and dragging him up and down the highway.
我有各种复杂而可怕的复仇幻想，包括将这家伙用绳子绑在我的保险杠后面，然后把他拖到高速公路上。
Or covering him with gas and setting him on fire, whatever.
或者用瓦斯覆盖他并点燃他，等等。
And it's very difficult to teach that day.
那天的教学非常困难。
And I don't know what to do, but this aggression will not stand, man.
我不知道该怎么办，但这种侵略行为是站不住脚的，伙计。
I gotta do something.
我得做点什么。
And then I'm coming back from my planning bell, and I'm coming up the stairs, and I see him standing there on the stairwell.
然后我从计划铃声中回来，我走上楼梯，我看到他站在楼梯井上。
And the window is open, and he's looking out the window.
窗户开着，他正看着窗外。
And he's got this dopey little smile on his open mouth.
他张开嘴，脸上挂着傻乎乎的小微笑。
And the breeze is playfully ruffling his mullet off of his shoulders.
微风顽皮地吹乱了他肩膀上的鲻鱼。
And I get up to him, and I just drop my hand on his shoulder, and I spin him around and I say, "Hey, man!
我走到他身边，把手放在他的肩膀上，把他转过来，我说：“嘿，伙计！
I saw you in the hall with my sister." And then I run out of plan.
我在大厅里看到你和我妹妹。”然后我就没有计划了。
[LAUGHTER] Because I've been spending all day daydreaming about all this awesome, cinematic stuff I want to do and not really figuring out what would happen if I actually got to confront him, which is weird since we're in the same building all day.
[笑声] 因为我整天都在做白日梦，想着我想做的所有这些很棒的、电影般的东西，而没有真正弄清楚如果我真的要面对他会发生什么，这很奇怪，因为我们整天都在同一栋楼里。
And I can't think of anything.
我什么也想不出来。
I'm just pulling him in closer.
我只是把他拉近一点。
And I look him in the eye, I was like, "I saw you in the hall with my sister." And I want to bite his lips off and just spit them on the floor.
我看着他的眼睛，心想：“我看到你和我姐姐在大厅里。”我真想咬掉他的嘴唇，然后吐到地板上。
And I can't exactly do that, so I just give him a big, long kiss right on the mouth.
我不能完全做到这一点，所以我只是在他的嘴上给了他一个又大又长的吻。
And I keep my eyes open, and I lock eyes with him.
我睁大眼睛，凝视着他。
And I can feel his mustache against my back lip.
我能感觉到他的胡子抵在我的后唇上。
And the whole time I'm thinking, dominate and intimidate.
我自始至终都在思考、支配和恐吓。
[LAUGHTER] And I pushed him back.
[笑声]我把他推了回来。
And I was like, "Um, look, it's cool." I can't think of anything to say.
我当时想，“嗯，看，这很酷。”我想不出有什么可说的。
And I was just like, "You can come over whenever you want.
我就说：“你想什么时候过来都可以。
I look forward to seeing you around.
我期待着见到你。
Goodbye."
再见。”
[LAUGHTER] And split.
[笑声]然后分裂。
And I just kind of go home.
我就回家了。
And later that night, my sister came home.
那天晚上晚些时候，我姐姐回家了。
And they had met up after school and had a big fight.
他们放学后见面并大吵了一架。
And they'd broken up.
他们分手了。
But she looked at me, she said, "Mother [BLEEP], are you out of your rabid-ass mind?
但她看着我，说道：“妈妈[哔]，你疯了吗？
What were you even thinking?" And I said, "Jess, bitches gonna come and bitches gonna go, but you have been there for me since the day you were born.
你到底在想什么？”我说：“杰西，女人会来，女人也会走，但从你出生那天起，你就一直在我身边。
And that kind of love, that is real, and it is lifelong.
而这样的爱，那是真实的，而且是一生的。
And I'm gonna love you till after you are dead.
我会爱你直到你死后。
And I am not even lying, for real."
我什至没有说谎，真的。”
[LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE] Ira Glass So Jeff, for a minute, joins me in the studio.
[笑声和掌声] 艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 那么，杰夫 (Jeff) 和我一起来到了工作室。
Jeff, your story raises some important questions, and I want to go through those with you right now.
杰夫，你的故事提出了一些重要的问题，我现在想和你一起讨论这些问题。
First of all, why the kiss?
首先，为什么要接吻？
It was all that I could think of at the time.
当时我能想到的就只有这些了。
I was very limited in what I could do, you know?
我能做的事情非常有限，你知道吗？
Had I pursued violence-- this is the kind of guy, he rolled around with a crew.
如果我追求暴力——这就是那种人，他会和一群人一起滚来滚去。
Drive-bys happened in my hometown a lot.
在我的家乡，开车路过的事经常发生。
And had I beaten him up like I wanted to-- I don't really know how to beat people up-- he could have come back later with some sort of drive-by scenario.
如果我像我想的那样殴打他——我真的不知道如何殴打别人——他可能会在稍后以某种开车经过的场景回来。
Or he could have taken his bruises, or whatever, to the administration, I could never teach again.
或者他可以把他的瘀伤，或者其他什么，带到行政部门，我再也不能教书了。
So I had to do something that was completely off the map.
所以我必须做一些完全不在计划范围内的事情。
Could we talk about the moment after you kiss him?
我们可以谈谈你吻他之后的那一刻吗？
Sure.
当然。
Ira Glass Were you just as surprised as he was?
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：你也像他一样感到惊讶吗？
Yes.
是的。
Possibly more so.
可能更是如此。
Ira Glass Did you know you had this in you?
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 你知道你身上有这个吗？
No. Ira Glass And how did you feel after you did it?
不，艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass），做完之后你感觉如何？
Did you feel like, yes, score?
你有没有感觉，是的，得分？
No. I felt terrified.
不，我感到害怕。
I felt that I am past the point of no return right now.
我觉得我现在已经到了无法回头的地步了。
And whatever happens, there's no counsel for me.
无论发生什么，我都没有任何建议。
If you had to summarize in a sentence your message to him with that kiss, like why you chose the kiss, what would you say?
如果你必须用一句话来概括你通过这个吻向他传达的信息，比如你为什么选择这个吻，你会说什么？
You've opened the lid on forces that nobody knows how to deal with.
你打开了无人知道如何应对的力量的盖子。
Close the box and step away.
关上盒子并走开。
So with this kid, you decide you're going to take the law into your own hands.
因此，对于这个孩子，你决定将法律掌握在自己手中。
You're going to be the one to fix this.
你将成为解决这个问题的人。
You're going to set this right.
你要把这个设置正确。
What if you had tried to protect her in a more traditional way?
如果您尝试以更传统的方式保护她怎么办？
You know, go to one of the other teachers, or the principal, and just get him suspended or expelled or something?
你知道，去找其他老师或校长，让他停职或开除什么的？
Because it wouldn't have worked.
因为那是行不通的。
He wouldn't have cared.
他不会在意的。
He didn't come to school enough for a suspension to be a meaningful change in his life one way or the other.
他上学的时间还不够长，因此停学对他的生活来说并没有带来任何有意义的改变。
I think he wouldn't have gotten the message.
我想他不会收到这个消息。
I don't think he would've gotten it.
我不认为他会得到它。
I think life would have continued unabated.
我想生活会继续不减。
He may have continued dating my sister, or may have continued shoving her around.
他可能继续和我妹妹约会，或者可能继续把她推来推去。
Nothing would have stopped.
一切都不会停止。
Nothing would have changed.
一切都不会改变。
There had to be change.
必须做出改变。
Jeff Simmermon, he does other stories on his blog, andiamnotlying.com.
Jeff Simmermon，他在他的博客 andiamnotlying.com 上写了其他故事。
That's and I am not lying, all one word.
就是这样，我没有说谎，一言以蔽之。
Thanks, as always, to The Moth, which uses personal stories told live in front of an audience.
一如既往地感谢《飞蛾》，它使用在观众面前现场讲述的个人故事。
For more Moth stories, check out the Moth's great, free, weekly podcast at themoth.org.
欲了解更多 Moth 故事，请在 themoth.org 上查看 Moth 精彩的免费每周播客。
And The Moth is starting its own radio show, The Moth Radio Hour, which will be coming to many public radio stations this August.
The Moth 正在开始自己的广播节目“The Moth Radio Hour”，该节目将于今年八月在许多公共广播电台播出。
Act 4, Underling Gets An Underling.
第四幕，下属得到下属。
This is the story of somebody in a job that sounds like the kind of thing that would be, sort of, exciting.
这是一个关于某人从事某项工作的故事，听起来有点令人兴奋。
Stef Willen worked on a bunch of reality TV shows, but she was a production assistant, a PA, which is the lowest rung on the ladder.
Stef Willen 曾制作过很多真人秀节目，但她是一名制作助理、一名公共广播员，这是阶梯上的最低级别。
She did a lot of emptying trash cans.
她清空了很多垃圾桶。
I remember running around town with the weirdest lists of stuff to get, like toilet paper with a specific pattern on it.
我记得在城里跑来跑去，带着最奇怪的东西清单，比如上面有特定图案的卫生纸。
I've had one boss, she would do things like ask me to hang curtains in her office.
我有一位老板，她会做一些事情，比如让我在她的办公室挂窗帘。
And I was like, "Oh, but your wall is made of concrete." And she was like, "Oh, you can do it." You know?
我当时想，“哦，但你的墙是混凝土做的。”她说：“哦，你能做到的。”你知道？
Stuff like that.
诸如此类的事情。
I would be given these bizarre tasks, and if you didn't do them right, there was always this sense of are you stupid?
我会被分配这些奇怪的任务，如果你没有正确完成这些任务，我总会有一种“你是傻子吗？”的感觉。
And so the way understand it is that towards the end you came up with a plan.
所以理解它的方式是，到最后你想出了一个计划。
Can I ask you to just describe the plan that you came up with?
我可以请您简单描述一下您提出的计划吗？
I just thought it would be hilarious if I came in the next day with an eager young person who was my production assistant.
我只是想，如果第二天我和一位热心的年轻人一起来，他是我的制作助理，那会很搞笑。
Oh.
哦。
So you would be a PA and you would have your own PA.
所以你会成为一名私人助理，并且拥有自己的私人助理。
Exactly.
确切地。
Which is really unnecessary.
这确实是不必要的。
It's a gopher with a gopher, so I don't know.
这是一只地鼠与一只地鼠，所以我不知道。
I wanted to make a point.
我想表达一个观点。
It'd just be like a little sweet revenge, you know?
这就像一次甜蜜的报复，你知道吗？
No. No. I understand.
不，不，我明白。
You'd be upsetting the natural order.
你会破坏自然秩序。
Right.
正确的。
Totally.
完全。
It's like, if you can get someone under you, it's simple math, but you are not at the bottom.
就好像，如果你能让某人低于你，这是简单的数学，但你并不在最底层。
I just knew that I was somehow taking control over what was happening in my life if I could put someone just right under me.
我只知道，如果我能把某人放在我的下面，我就能以某种方式控制我生活中发生的事情。
So, OK.
那么，好吧。
So you're a PA hiring a PA.
所以你是一名私人助理，正在雇用一名私人助理。
How'd you go about it?
你怎么办？
I wrote up a Craigslist seeking a production assistant on a popular reality TV show.
我在克雷格列表上写了一篇文章，寻找一个流行真人秀节目的制作助理。
For the ability, I said must possess a medium work ethic, the ability to take out trash, and then sit for hours and work for free.
对于能力，我说必须具备中等的职业道德，有倒垃圾的能力，然后坐几个小时免费工作。
And 21 people responded.
共有 21 人回复。
21 people.
21人。
I was amazed.
我很惊讶。
I ended up going with this guy, I'll call him Adam.
我最终选择了这个人，我称他为亚当。
It was interesting, I hired him because I actually felt like he might be slightly delinquent.
有趣的是，我雇用他是因为我实际上觉得他可能有点违法。
When we had our, quote, unquote, "interview," he never turned down his car radio.
当我们进行“采访”时，他从来没有关掉他的汽车收音机。
And it was that kind of thing.
就是这样的事情。
And I'm like, OK.
我想，好吧。
Well, we're going to meet at the coffee shop and we're going to drive to set.
好吧，我们要在咖啡店见面，然后开车去片场。
"OK." I'm like, "Do you want to get out a pen and a paper and write this down?" "Oh, OK."
“好的。”我想，“你想拿出笔和纸把这个写下来吗？” “哦，好的。”
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
So he's really a real beginner.
所以他确实是一个真正的初学者。
Like, he really was not necessarily ready for the responsibility of a--
就像，他真的不一定准备好承担责任——
Of a phone conversation.
一次电话交谈。
Ira Glass Yeah.
艾拉·格拉斯 是的。
Or a job.
或者一份工作。
Yeah.
是的。
I met him at a coffee shop.
我在一家咖啡店遇见了他。
And he was this nice looking young guy.
他是一个看起来很漂亮的年轻人。
And he was wearing this argyle sweater and this scarf and a beret.
他穿着这件菱形图案毛衣、这条围巾和一顶贝雷帽。
And I was like, "Oh, my gosh.
我当时想，“哦，天哪。
What did I just do?"
我刚才做了什么？”
A beret?
贝雷帽？
Stef Willen A beret.
Stef Willen 贝雷帽。
Yeah.
是的。
He followed me in his car to set, and I was getting a little nervous because I actually hadn't planned anything past this point.
他开着他的车跟着我去片场，我有点紧张，因为我实际上并没有计划过任何事情。
The first person we see is the line producer, and she was frantic, as always.
我们看到的第一个人是制片人，她一如既往地疯狂。
You know, "Come on.
你知道，“来吧。
Come on.
来吧。
We've got a big day.
我们有一个重要的日子。
We've got to get going." And I said, "Oh, well you'll be glad to know I have some help.
我们得走了。”我说：“哦，好吧，你会很高兴知道我能提供一些帮助。
This is Adam, and he is my production assistant for today." And she just sort of stopped and looked at me.
这是亚当，他是我今天的制作助理。”她只是停下来看着我。
And she goes, "Well, good.
她说：“嗯，很好。
We need the extra help." And there was no Stef is a genius.
我们需要额外的帮助。”而且史黛夫根本就不是一个天才。
Or, oh look what Steff did.
或者，哦，看看史蒂夫做了什么。
It was, literally, like oh, thank you.
从字面上看，就像哦，谢谢。
Oh, we need the help.
哦，我们需要帮助。
How did you get him to work for free?
你是怎么让他免费工作的？
And so you did introduce him to your bosses?
所以你确实把他介绍给你的老板了？
Yeah.
是的。
I introduced him to everybody.
我把他介绍给大家。
I mean, I don't know why I thought that they would learn something from it, but I totally underestimated I guess, the joke, but also their need for workers.
我的意思是，我不知道为什么我认为他们会从中学到一些东西，但我完全低估了我想，这个笑话，以及他们对工人的需求。
They were in production mode.
他们处于生产模式。
They're not stopping to look at what I'm trying to say.
他们没有停下来看看我想说的话。
They're like, OK.
他们就像，好吧。
Well, we're 10 minutes behind.
好吧，我们落后了 10 分钟。
We can use Adam over here in hair and makeup.
我们可以在头发和化妆方面使用 Adam。
So you were hoping that they would get the lesson of, you see, this whole system you have is so arbitrary?
所以你希望他们能得到教训，你看，你拥有的整个系统是如此武断？
And, we're not just cogs in a machine.
而且，我们不仅仅是机器上的齿轮。
Like, I could be a boss.
比如说，我可以当老板。
And the lesson they took was not only are you all cogs in a machine, but you're such a cog, we can't even see that you're talking.
他们得到的教训不仅是你们都是机器上的齿轮，而且你们是如此的一个齿轮，我们甚至看不到你在说话。
Like you're not even an animal making noise here.
就像你甚至不是在这里发出噪音的动物一样。
Like, OK.
就像，好吧。
Now, hand me that other animal over there.
现在，把那边的另一只动物交给我。
Yeah.
是的。
Exactly.
确切地。
It's like, oh, two cogs for one.
这就像，哦，两个齿轮合一。
Awesome.
惊人的。
We'll take this one, you know?
我们就拿这个，你知道吗？
I went from his boss to his sidekick to, I don't know, his buddy?
我从他的老板变成了他的助手，我不知道，他的伙伴？
I'd be like, oh, I got this trash can.
我会想，哦，我有这个垃圾桶。
So it would be really gross and disgusting, and I'm like, oh, I don't want to mess up his scarf.
所以这真的很恶心，我想，哦，我不想弄乱他的围巾。
I made sure he ate first.
我确保他先吃。
Like, he got his lunch before me.
就像，他比我先吃午饭。
At one point, we were all sitting around the table.
有一次，我们都围坐在桌子旁。
We'd been sitting staring at each other for about two hours, because they were filming, with nothing to do.
我们坐在那儿对视了大约两个小时，因为他们正在拍摄，无所事事。
And I looked over at Adam, and he had taken his beret off and it was on his knee.
我看着亚当，他摘下了贝雷帽，放在膝盖上。
And he was, sort of, slouched down, and he was moving M&M's across his plate, one by one, with his index finger.
他有点无精打采地蹲下来，用食指在盘子里一颗一颗地移动巧克力豆。
And I think he said, "I have never not done anything for this long a time." And I was like, "Well, you know, it did say in my ad the ability to sit for hours." And he laughed.
我想他说的是：“我从来没有这么长时间没有做过任何事情。”我当时想，“好吧，你知道，我的广告中确实提到了可以坐几个小时。”他笑了。
But shortly after, I told him to go.
但不久之后，我告诉他走。
I was like, "Well, you know, you did a great job today.
我当时想，“好吧，你知道，你今天做得很好。
Definitely send me your resume." He kept in touch, like, he would email, do you know so-and-so?
一定要把你的简历发给我。”他保持联系，比如，他会发电子邮件，你认识某某吗？
Or just little questions, you know?
或者只是一些小问题，你知道吗？
And then, at one point, he stopped asking me questions.
然后，有一次，他不再问我问题了。
And I got this text from him at 8:26 AM, and it said, "I want you." Period.
上午 8 点 26 分我收到了他发来的短信，上面写着：“我想要你。”时期。
"I want your body." Period.
“我想要你的身体。”时期。
"Right now." Period.
“现在。”时期。
And I was like, OK.
我当时想，好吧。
What did that say to you?
这对你说了什么？
Stef Willen That he had not taken me seriously at all.
Stef Willen 他根本没有认真对待我。
So you got him into your life because nobody else took you seriously, and then even he doesn't take you seriously.
所以你让他进入你的生活是因为没有人认真对待你，然后甚至他也不认真对待你。
Right.
正确的。
It just, sort of, made me laugh.
这只是让我发笑。
I thought, OK.
我想，好吧。
Well, he wants my body right now, which, 8:26 AM, that wasn't a good time for me.
好吧，他现在就想要我的身体，但早上 8 点 26 分，这对我来说不是一个好时机。
Stef Willen, she has quit her PA jobs.
Stef Willen，她辞掉了私人助理的工作。
She starred in the independent film, M, which won last year's Seattle International Film Festival, and she's writing a book.
她主演的独立电影《M》赢得了去年西雅图国际电影节的奖项，她正在写一本书。
Well, the program was produced today by Sarah Koenig and myself with Alex Blumberg, Sean Cole, Jane Feltes, Lisa Pollak, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
嗯，这个节目今天由 Sarah Koenig 和我与 Alex Blumberg、Sean Cole、Jane Feltes、Lisa Pollak、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 共同制作。
Our Senior Producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Our production help from Andy Dixon and Aaron Scott.
安迪·迪克森和亚伦·斯科特为我们的制作提供了帮助。
Seth Lind is our Production Manager.
Seth Lind 是我们的生产经理。
Music help from Jessica Hopper.
杰西卡·霍珀的音乐帮助。
And this is our last show with our very precocious intern, Andi Dixon, who we all wish the best to, whether she ends up in grad school, or a job, or what's most likely, both.
这是我们与早熟的实习生安迪·迪克森 (Andi Dixon) 的最后一场演出，我们都希望她能成为最好的人，无论她最终能进入研究生院，还是找到一份工作，或者最有可能的是，两者兼而有之。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。