383: Origin Story - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #383 | July 23, 2010 383: Origin Story Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 383 集 | 2010 年 7 月 23 日 383：起源故事 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Pino Audia teaches in the business school at Dartmouth, and he researches, among other things, the question: How do entrepreneurs get created?
序言 Ira Glass Pino Audia 在达特茅斯商学院任教，他研究的问题包括：企业家是如何诞生的？
And somebody noticed that his students and many of his colleagues actually have an opinion about this.
有人注意到他的学生和许多同事对此确实有自己的看法。
They believe entrepreneurs make themselves.
他们相信企业家创造自己。
You know, you bravely head off on your own.
你知道，你勇敢地独自出发。
You write a business plan.
你写一份商业计划。
You start in your own garage.
你从自己的车库开始。
And that garage, by the way, is not a metaphor.
顺便说一句，那个车库并不是一个比喻。
Hewlett-Packard started in a garage.
惠普公司是从一个车库起步的。
Apple Computer had a garage.
苹果电脑有一个车库。
Disney, the Mattel Toy Company, the Wham-O Toy Company.
迪士尼、美泰玩具公司、Wham-O 玩具公司。
It is about big dreams and humble beginnings and success in the face of adversity and doubters, and also the idea that regardless of who you are, regardless of how humble your beginnings are, you can turn something into an immense success story if you work hard.
它讲述的是远大的梦想、卑微的开端以及面对逆境和怀疑者的成功，以及无论你是谁，无论你的出身多么卑微，如果你努力工作，你都可以将某些事情变成一个巨大的成功故事。
And that was the point in time at which I got interested in the story of the garage as a myth.
就在那时，我对车库这个神话故事产生了兴趣。
A garage is a place of possibilities.
车库是一个充满可能性的地方。
It's a place where things can get invented and a place where entrepreneurs begin.
这是一个可以发明事物的地方，也是一个企业家开始的地方。
This is from a promotional video that Hewlett-Packard put together after it spent millions to buy and restore the original garage where its two founders started what is now the largest technology firm in the world.
这是惠普花费数百万美元购买并修复原来的车库后制作的宣传视频，惠普的两位创始人在那里创办了现在世界上最大的科技公司。
In 1938, in a garage in Palo Alto, California, Bill Hewlett and Dave Packard set to work to start a new company.
1938 年，在加利福尼亚州帕洛阿尔托的一个车库里，比尔·休利特 (Bill Hewlett) 和戴夫·帕卡德 (Dave Packard) 开始着手创办一家新公司。
They had a few hand-operated punches, a used Sears Roebuck drill press that had just made the trip west in the back of one of their cars, and they had a rented flat with a garage.
他们有一些手动冲床，一台二手西尔斯罗巴克钻床，刚刚在他们的一辆车后面向西行驶，他们还租了一套带车库的公寓。
Professor Audia doesn't argue with any of this.
奥迪亚教授对此并不反驳。
But he says that when you ask actual entrepreneurs, and this is true in survey after survey, you find that most of them began not by going off into their garage, but by working for somebody else, making contacts, learning the business.
但他说，当你询问真正的企业家时，你会发现他们中的大多数人并不是从进入车库开始的，而是通过为别人工作、建立联系、学习业务开始的，在一次又一次的调查中确实如此。
So this is a very robust finding, which tells us that actually if you want to become an entrepreneur, the obvious thing to do is to first go get a job in an industry you're interested in and learn, and then eventually, later try to create a company.
所以这是一个非常有力的发现，它告诉我们，实际上如果你想成为一名企业家，显而易见的事情就是首先去你感兴趣的行业找到一份工作并学习，然后最终尝试创建一家公司。
Even Bill Hewlett and Dave Packard weren't exactly outsiders.
就连比尔·休利特 (Bill Hewlett) 和戴夫·帕卡德 (Dave Packard) 也不完全是局外人。
They studied electrical engineering at MIT and at Stanford.
他们在麻省理工学院和斯坦福大学学习电气工程。
Packard had worked at General Electric.
帕卡德曾在通用电气工作。
A former professor of theirs from Stanford gave them leads and hooked them up, for example, with a firm called Litton Engineering.
他们的一位前斯坦福大学教授为他们提供了线索，并将他们与一家名为 Litton Engineering 的公司联系起来。
He let them use equipment that they didn't own themselves yet.
他让他们使用自己还不拥有的设备。
Just as, decades later, the founders of Apple Computer, 21-year-old Steve Jobs, was already working at Atari, and 25-year-old old Steve Wozniak was at Hewlett-Packard when they started Apple in Job's garage.
就像几十年后，苹果电脑的创始人、21 岁的史蒂夫·乔布斯 (Steve Jobs) 已经在雅达利工作，而 25 岁的史蒂夫·沃兹尼亚克 (Steve Wozniak) 在乔布斯的车库里创办苹果公司时，也在惠普工作。
And, for example, in the case of Steve Jobs, he benefited greatly from the support that he got from the Atari people, because they introduced him to investors.
例如，就史蒂夫·乔布斯而言，他从雅达利员工的支持中受益匪浅，因为他们将他介绍给了投资者。
Pino Audia has tried to find mentions of garage entrepreneurs or anything like it in other countries and didn't come up with much.
皮诺·奥迪亚（Pino Audia）试图在其他国家寻找车库企业家或类似事物的提及，但没有得到太多结果。
He says it seems to be a very American idea, very close to other American ideas about opportunity for everybody.
他说，这似乎是一个非常美国化的想法，与其他美国关于为每个人提供机会的想法非常接近。
The Apple and Hewlett-Packard garages have now become such a part of Silicon Valley myth that it's made other tech companies want their own stories like it.
苹果和惠普的车库现在已经成为硅谷神话的一部分，以至于其他科技公司也想拥有自己的类似故事。
Google, for example.
以谷歌为例。
They did not start in a garage.
他们并不是从车库开始的。
The founders began working on their search engine in 1996 when they were at Stanford.
1996 年，创始人还在斯坦福大学就读时就开始开发他们的搜索引擎。
They didn't actually move into a garage until 1998.
直到 1998 年，他们才真正搬进车库。
They already had investors, and they were just in the garage for five months.
他们已经有了投资者，而他们才在车库里呆了五个月。
But in 2006, Google bought the garage as a company landmark.
但在 2006 年，谷歌买下了这个车库作为公司的地标。
It's like, no one wants to hear the story of the rich, well-connected guys who meet up at the Marriott conference room to hatch a business plan.
就好像，没有人想听那些富有、人脉广泛的人在万豪会议室聚会制定商业计划的故事。
There's no romance in that.
这里面没有什么浪漫可言。
Dan Heath has written about these origin stories in Fast Company magazine.
丹·希思 (Dan Heath) 在《快公司》杂志上撰写了有关这些起源故事的文章。
He says that one way to measure just how appealing these stories are is to count all the ones that get quoted widely, even though they aren't remotely true.
他说，衡量这些故事的吸引力的一种方法是统计所有被广泛引用的故事，即使它们远非真实。
For instance, when eBay began, a story circulated that its founder created the company so his fiancee could buy and collect Pez dispensers more easily.
例如，当 eBay 成立时，有一个故事流传说，其创始人创建该公司是为了让他的未婚妻可以更轻松地购买和收集 Pez 分配器。
Not true.
不正确。
One of the creators of YouTube used to claim that the idea for the business came after a dinner party in 2005, where two of the company's masterminds, Chad Hurley and Steve Chen, shot some video and then tried to post it online and found out just how hard that was back then.
YouTube 的一位创始人曾声称，这项业务的想法是在 2005 年的一次晚宴后产生的，当时公司的两位策划者查德·赫尔利 (Chad Hurley) 和史蒂夫·陈 (Steve Chen) 拍摄了一些视频，然后试图将其发布到网上，结果发现当时这有多困难。
Now, that is, at a minimum, an exaggerated tale.
现在看来，这至少是一个夸张的故事。
In fact, there's a third founder of YouTube who claims the dinner party never happened.
事实上，YouTube 的第三位创始人声称晚宴从未发生过。
And Steve Chen later admitted in TIME Magazine that the dinner party was embellished to provide a better founding myth.
陈士骏后来在《时代》杂志上承认，晚宴经过修饰，是为了提供更好的建国神话。
And I do want to say that while it feels like a little bit of a letdown to realize that this dinner party story is not the whole truth, I feel like it's a little bit unfair for us to expect more of them than the creation of YouTube.
我确实想说，虽然意识到这个晚宴故事并不是全部真相让人有点失望，但我觉得对我们来说，对他们的期望比 YouTube 的创建还要多，有点不公平。
I mean, here's this incredible site, and in some sense, that's not enough for us.
我的意思是，这是一个令人难以置信的网站，但从某种意义上说，这对我们来说还不够。
We want YouTube to have emerged from some kind of everyday experience.
我们希望 YouTube 能够从某种日常体验中脱颖而出。
It's like it's not enough to have the value of their work.
就好像仅仅拥有他们的工作价值还不够。
We also want there to be a really compelling story that started it.
我们还希望有一个真正引人入胜的故事来开始它。
Now, in the article that you wrote for Fast Company, you point out that our attachment to these kinds of mythic creation stories is so strong that we have even exaggerated the Christopher Columbus story.
现在，您在为《快公司》撰写的文章中指出，我们对这类神话创世故事的执着如此强烈，以至于我们甚至夸大了克里斯托弗·哥伦布的故事。
Well, Christopher Columbus, as we all know, wanted to prove that he could reach India by sailing west.
众所周知，克里斯托弗·哥伦布想证明他可以向西航行到达印度。
But no one believed his crazy theory that the Earth was round.
但没有人相信他的地球是圆的疯狂理论。
And, in fact, his own sailors en route were terrified that they were about to fall over the edge of the Earth, and they almost mutinied.
事实上，他自己的水手在途中都害怕自己即将坠落到地球边缘，他们几乎要叛变。
So there's a guy named James Loewen, a professor at University of Vermont, who has pointed out that virtually every element of this story is false.
佛蒙特大学教授詹姆斯·洛文 (James Loewen) 指出，这个故事中几乎所有元素都是错误的。
That, in fact, we still don't really know where Christopher Columbus was going.
事实上，我们仍然不知道克里斯托弗·哥伦布要去哪里。
There's a lot of disagreement among historians that even Columbus' best-known biographer isn't totally sure where he was headed.
历史学家之间存在很多分歧，认为即使是哥伦布最著名的传记作家也不能完全确定他的去向。
And furthermore, there was no element of is the Earth round or flat here.
而且，这里不存在地球是圆还是平的因素。
Most people at that time already knew that the Earth was round.
当时大多数人已经知道地球是圆的。
The evidence was there for them to see.
证据就在那里让他们看到。
They noticed that, if another ship is receding into the horizon, their hull disappears first, and then the mast later, which implies that there's some kind of curvature in play.
他们注意到，如果另一艘船正在退入地平线，它们的船体首先消失，然后桅杆消失，这意味着存在某种曲率。
And again, here's a guy who crossed an ocean and became one of the first Europeans to set foot on a new continent, and yet, we want more from this guy.
再说一次，这个人跨越了大洋，成为第一批踏上新大陆的欧洲人之一，然而，我们希望从这个人身上得到更多。
We want him to be having hand-to-hand combat with his crew en route.
我们希望他在途中与他的船员进行肉搏战。
We just crave the drama.
我们只是渴望戏剧。
We crave the obstacles.
我们渴望障碍。
For today on our show: origin stories.
今天我们的节目：起源故事。
We love them so much that sometimes it is hard not to make them up.
我们非常爱他们，有时很难不去弥补。
And so today on our show, we bring you three origin stories, true ones.
因此，今天在我们的节目中，我们为您带来三个真实的起源故事。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.
这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Act One of our show today: Mad Man.
我们今天的节目第一幕：《广告狂人》。
Act Two: The Secret Life of Secrets.
第二幕：秘密的秘密生活。
Act Three: Wait Wait-- Don't Film Me.
第三幕：等等——别拍我。
Act Four: Bill Clinton's 7-Year-Old Brother.
第四幕：比尔·克林顿 7 岁的弟弟。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One.
第一幕。
Well, this first story is about a fight over the origin of certain ideas, a fight over who really came up with those ideas.
嗯，第一个故事是关于某些想法的起源的争论，关于谁真正提出了这些想法的争论。
Sarah Koenig tells a story about her dad Julian.
莎拉·柯尼格讲述了她父亲朱利安的故事。
All my life, I've heard the hallmarks of my father's achievements.
在我的一生中，我一直听到父亲的成就的标志。
I invented thumb wrestling.
我发明了拇指摔跤。
Sarah Koenig That was in 1936 when he was a counselor at Camp Greylock for boys.
莎拉·科尼格 (Sarah Koenig) 那是在 1936 年，当时他是格雷洛克营男孩的辅导员。
They already had arm wrestling for the boys and leg wrestling.
他们已经为男孩们安排了扳手腕和摔腿比赛。
But we needed another wrestling, and I invented thumb wrestling with the same rules as a hockey puck face-off.
但我们需要另一场摔跤，我发明了拇指摔跤，其规则与冰球对抗相同。
One, two, three, go!
一、二、三，出发！
It just came to you, like just a stroke?
它只是突然降临到你身上，就像中风一样？
Oh, we should use our thumbs?
哦，我们应该用拇指吗？
The discoveries kept coming.
不断有新的发现。
Shrimp, for instance.
以虾为例。
I wanted to popularize shrimp in America.
我想在美国普及虾。
In 1941, my father, a shrimp lover, was discouraged that there were only two places on Broadway in New York where you could get shrimp.
1941年，我的父亲是一位虾爱好者，他对纽约百老汇只有两个地方可以买到虾感到沮丧。
So then in Biloxi, Mississippi-- and bear with me here, because this story barely makes any sense.
那么在密西西比州的比洛克西——请耐心听我说，因为这个故事几乎没有任何意义。
So he's in Biloxi, on his way to Mexico with some buddies, and he sees this government boat about to go out to track the migratory path of shrimp.
他在比洛克西，和一些朋友一起去墨西哥，他看到这艘政府船即将出海追踪虾的迁徙路线。
And he talks his way onto the boat by explaining that he loves shrimp apparently, and he goes out on this boat, and they find the shrimp breeding grounds or some such.
他在船上解释说他显然很喜欢虾，然后他乘这艘船出去，他们找到了虾繁殖地或类似的地方。
The rest, of course, is history.
当然，其余的都是历史了。
Then back in New York, I patrolled Broadway and [UNINTELLIGIBLE], asking for shrimp, shrimp, shrimp!
然后回到纽约，我在百老汇巡逻，[听不清]，要虾，虾，虾！
More!
更多的！
And in this way, talking it up, I popularized shrimp.
就这样，说起来，我普及了虾。
No question about it.
毫无疑问。
That seems like really, really thin evidence that you popularized shrimp in New York.
这似乎非常非常薄弱的证据表明你在纽约普及了虾。
Well, I'm not making any claim on the industry.
好吧，我并不是对这个行业提出任何要求。
My dad does make a claim on the word "character," that he came up with the idea to use it to mean a person of unusual or eccentric qualities.
我父亲确实对“性格”这个词提出了主张，他想出了用它来指代具有不寻常或古怪品质的人的想法。
You have a character in a play, of course, but it wasn't in common usage as he's a character.
当然，你在戏剧中有一个角色，但它并不常见，因为他是一个角色。
And what made you-- do you remember why you started using it?
是什么让你——你还记得为什么开始使用它吗？
I just shifted it, adopted it.
我只是转移了它，采用了它。
Though Norman Mailer thinks that he developed it, I take precedence.
尽管诺曼·梅勒认为是他开发的，但我优先。
According to my father, Norman Mailer also said he invented thumb wrestling.
据我父亲说，诺曼·梅勒还说他发明了拇指摔跤。
Mailer, who died in 2007, was a famous thumb wrestler, but not its inventor.
梅勒于 2007 年去世，他是一位著名的拇指摔跤运动员，但不是其发明者。
Because as we now know, my dad invented it at Camp Greylock for boys.
因为我们现在知道，这是我父亲在格雷洛克营为男孩们发明的。
And that's the rub.
这就是问题所在。
You can't prove the origin of any of this stuff, and it's annoying when people like Norman Mailer take credit.
你无法证明这些东西的起源，当像诺曼·梅勒这样的人把功劳归咎于人时，这很烦人。
My dad would like people to recognize him for his contributions to shrimp and character and thumb wrestling.
我父亲希望人们认可他对虾、性格和拇指摔跤的贡献。
But he's not going to make a stink if they don't.
但如果他们不这样做，他也不会发出臭味。
His real legacy, though, in advertising, that's another story.
不过，他在广告领域留下的真正遗产则是另一回事了。
That, he's willing to fight for, and he has been fighting for it for decades.
他愿意为之奋斗，并且为此奋斗了数十年。
My father was a legendary copywriter.
我的父亲是一位传奇的文案撰稿人。
He wrote "Timex Takes a Licking and Keeps on Ticking." He named Earth Day "Earth Day." It falls on his birthday, April 22.
他写道：“Timex 舔了舔，继续滴答作响。”他将地球日命名为“地球日”。 4月22日是他的生日。
Earth Day, birthday.
地球日，生日。
So the idea came easily.
所以这个想法很容易就来了。
The magazine Advertising Age made a list of the top 100 advertising campaigns of the 20th century.
《广告时代》杂志列出了 20 世纪 100 项最佳广告活动。
The Marlboro Man is on it and the Energizer Bunny, "Good to the Last Drop" from Maxwell House and the "Keep America Beautiful" crying Indian.
上面有万宝路男人、劲量兔子、麦斯威尔之家的“Good to the Last Drop”和哭泣的“Keep America Beautiful”印第安人。
But the number-one ad, the top of the 100 list?
但是排名第一的广告、100 条广告排行榜的顶部呢？
"Think Small." That was Volkswagen's American campaign to sell the Beetle in 1959, and my father wrote it.
“往小处想。”那是大众汽车 1959 年在美国销售甲壳虫汽车的活动，是我父亲写的。
A picture of a tiny car on a big, white page and some amused self-deprecating copy.
一张大白页上有一辆小汽车的照片，还有一些有趣的自嘲副本。
That ad was followed by Lemon, another VW ad so iconic it made it onto the TV show Mad Men , the show set in 1960 about an ad agency that's slightly behind the times.
紧随该广告之后的是“Lemon”，这是另一部具有标志性的大众汽车广告，它出现在电视节目《广告狂人》中，该节目以 1960 年为背景，讲述了一家稍微落后于时代的广告公司的故事。
In this scene, the agency's creative team contemplates the Lemon ad.
在这个场景中，该机构的创意团队正在考虑柠檬广告。
I don't know what I hate about it the most, the ad or the car.
我不知道我最讨厌什么，广告还是汽车。
You know, they did one last year, same kind of smirk.
你知道，他们去年也做过一次，同样的傻笑。
Remember "Think Small?" It was a half-page ad at a full-page buy.
还记得“小处着眼”吗？这是全版购买时的半版广告。
You could barely see the product.
你几乎看不到产品。
I don't get it.
我不明白。
Sarah Koenig At the time, these ads were revolutionary.
Sarah Koenig 在当时，这些广告是革命性的。
"In the beginning, there was Volkswagen," another famous New York ad man wrote.
“一开始，有大众汽车，”另一位著名的纽约广告人写道。
"That was the day when the new advertising agency was really born."
“那一天，新的广告公司真正诞生了。”
Here's another scene from Mad Men when Don Draper, the agency's creative director, interviews some new talent.
这是《广告狂人》中的另一个场景，当时该机构的创意总监唐·德雷珀 (Don Draper) 采访了一些新人。
After he looks at their portfolio, he hands it back to them with this line.
当他查看完他们的作品集后，他用这句话将其交还给他们。
It's Julian Koenig [PRONOUNCES KOENIG AS KAY-NIG] actually.
实际上是 Julian Koenig（将 KOENIG 发音为 KAY-NIG）。
My father.
我的父亲。
And what has irritated him for so long is not that he's not recognized for his talent.
长期以来让他恼火的并不是他的才华没有得到认可。
I mean, the people who write Mad Men clearly know who he is.
我的意思是，写《广告狂人》的人清楚地知道他是谁。
It's that some of his best work has been claimed by someone else.
而是他的一些最好的作品被其他人声称了。
In my instance, the greatest predator of my work was my one-time partner George Lois, who is a most heralded and talented art director/designer, and his talent is only exceeded by his omnivorous ego.
就我而言，我的作品最大的掠夺者是我曾经的合作伙伴乔治·路易斯，他是一位最受赞誉、最有才华的艺术总监/设计师，他的才华只能被他杂食性的自我超越。
So where it once would've been accepted that the word would be "we" did it, regardless of who originated the work, the word "we" evaporated from George's vocabulary and it became "my."
因此，曾经人们认为这个词是“我们”，无论是谁创作了这部作品，“我们”这个词从乔治的词汇中消失了，变成了“我的”。
If you've heard of anyone in the advertising industry, it might be George Lois.
如果您听说过广告行业的某个人，那可能就是乔治·路易斯。
He's well known for a lot of things, but maybe especially for his provocative and funny Esquire magazine covers from the 1960s, like the one of Muhammad Ali posing as Saint Sebastian.
他因很多事情而闻名，但尤其是 20 世纪 60 年代《Esquire》杂志的挑衅性和有趣的封面，比如穆罕默德·阿里 (Muhammad Ali) 扮演圣塞巴斯蒂安 (Saint Sebastian) 的封面。
But before that, George Lois worked at Doyle Dane Bernbach, and so did my father.
但在此之前，乔治·路易斯 (George Lois) 在 Doyle Dane Bernbach 工作，我父亲也是如此。
In 1960, they both left DDB and joined up with another guy, Fred Papert, to form their own upstart agency called PKL: Papert, Koenig and Lois.
1960 年，他们双双离开了 DDB，并与另一个人 Fred Papert 一起组建了自己的新贵经纪公司 PKL：Papert、Koenig 和 Lois。
George Lois wouldn't talk to me for this story.
乔治·路易斯不会跟我谈论这个故事。
"I'm not going to get into a sophomoric [BLEEP] fight with a disgruntled ex-partner," he wrote in an email.
“我不会与心怀不满的前伴侣进行一场二年级的[BLEEP]争吵，”他在一封电子邮件中写道。
I can't say I blame him.
我不能说我责怪他。
I've had mixed feelings about this fight.
我对这场战斗的感受很复杂。
Of course I want to stick up for my father, take his side.
我当然想支持我的父亲，站在他一边。
But I've also thought there's something inherently undignified about the whole thing, like it's beneath my father to care whether or not George Lois is taking credit for this or that slogan from 1962, so I never really paid attention to the details.
但我也认为整件事本质上有失尊严，就像我父亲没有资格关心乔治·路易斯是否因 1962 年的这个或那个口号而受到赞扬，所以我从来没有真正关注过细节。
Until now.
到目前为止。
Lately, it's been coming up more, or at least more publicly, so I started asking questions.
最近，它越来越多地出现，或者至少更加公开，所以我开始提出问题。
According to my father, it all started with the Harvey Probber account.
据我父亲说，这一切都始于哈维·普罗伯的账户。
Harvey Probber made elegant modern furniture, and my dad says he came up with the ad, a beautiful chair with a matchbook under one leg, and the line: "If your Harvey Probber chair wobbles, straighten your floor," and a piece of copy that went with it that he thought was very good.
哈维·普罗伯 (Harvey Probber) 制作了优雅的现代家具，我爸爸说他想出了这则广告，一张漂亮的椅子，一条腿下放着火柴盒，还有一句台词：“如果你的哈维·普罗伯 (Harvey Probber) 椅子摇晃，请摆正你的地板，”以及与之配套的一份他认为非常好的文案。
And a year or so later or a couple of years later, Ron Holland, a friend of mine, came running into my office to say, George is upstairs with a Japanese editorial writer.
大约一年或几年后，我的朋友罗恩·霍兰德跑进我的办公室说，乔治和一位日本社论作家在楼上。
They're doing an interview with him, and he's claiming your Harvey Probber chair ad, that he wrote it.
他们正在对他进行采访，他声称你的 Harvey Probber 椅子广告是他写的。
So I called George down to my office and remonstrated-- that's what men do frequently-- with him.
于是我把乔治叫到我的办公室，向他提出抗议——这是男人经常做的事。
And he says, I never said that.
他说，我从来没有这么说过。
I would never say that.
我永远不会这么说。
And he went back to his office.
然后他回到了自己的办公室。
And a little while later, Ron comes bursting into my office, saying, George said I told that son-of-a-gun where to get off.
过了一会儿，罗恩冲进我的办公室，说，乔治说我告诉那个王八蛋在哪里下车。
Yeah, told me where to get off.
是的，告诉我在哪里下车。
So that was really the start of it.
这才是真正的开始。
In 1972, George Lois published a book, the first of many, about his career called George, Be Careful.
1972 年，乔治·路易斯 (George Lois) 出版了一本关于他的职业生涯的书，名为《乔治，小心》，这是第一本。
In it, he describes going to the Harvey Probber furniture factory in Massachusetts with my dad.
在其中，他描述了和我父亲一起去马萨诸塞州哈维·普罗伯家具厂的情况。
"Each chair was placed on an electronic test platform to be sure it was absolutely level," Lois wrote.
“每把椅子都被放置在电子测试平台上，以确保其绝对水平，”路易斯写道。
"'Got a book of matches?' I asked Julian, a heavy smoker.
“‘有火柴盒吗？’我问朱利安，他是个烟鬼。
He handed me a matchbook, and I slid it under one leg of the chair on the test platform.
他递给我一本火柴盒，我把它滑到测试台上椅子的一条腿下面。
'I've got the ad,' I said.
“我收到了广告，”我说。
'If your Harvey Probber chair is crooked, straighten your floor.' Julian scowled and shot back: 'Ass [BLEEP]!
“如果你的 Harvey Probber 椅子歪了，请把地板弄直。”朱利安皱起眉头并反击道：“混蛋[哔]！”
If your Harvey Probber chair wobbles, straighten your floor.' That was the way the ad ran, and that was the way we built the first red-hot creative agency."
如果您的 Harvey Probber 椅子摇晃，请将地板拉直。这就是广告的投放方式，这就是我们建立第一个炙手可热的创意机构的方式。”
And none of that ever happened, as described by George.
正如乔治所描述的那样，这一切都没有发生。
He didn't ask me for a matchbook.
他没有向我要火柴盒。
He didn't slide it under the leg of a chair and say, I've got the ad.
他没有把它滑到椅子腿下并说，我收到了广告。
None of it is true.
这些都不是真的。
But his makes a better story.
但他的故事更精彩。
Julian Koenig His is a marvelous story.
朱利安·柯尼格（Julian Koenig）的故事非常精彩。
George is a talented storyteller with a vivid imagination.
乔治是一位才华横溢的讲故事者，想象力丰富。
The only thing that could exceed it would be the truth.
唯一能超越它的就是真相。
There were other instances also regarding ads that were groundbreaking for their time.
还有其他一些关于当时具有开创性的广告的例子。
A campaign for the New York Herald Tribune: "Who says a good newspaper has to be dull?" Some famous Xerox commercials showing a little girl operating a copy machine, and later, a chimpanzee doing it, ads several people who worked on the account have complained that George literally had nothing to do with.
《纽约先驱论坛报》的一项活动：“谁说好报纸就一定是乏味的？”一些著名的施乐广告展示了一个小女孩操作复印机，后来又展示了一只黑猩猩在操作，广告中的几位负责该帐户的人员抱怨乔治实际上与此无关。
Then there's the ad for Coldene cough medicine.
然后是 Coldene 止咳药的广告。
The page is entirely black with just two quotes at different heights meant to show a couple talking in bed.
该页面完全是黑色的，只有两个不同高度的引号，旨在显示一对夫妇在床上聊天。
"John, is that Billy coughing?" says the wife.
“约翰，比利在咳嗽吗？”妻子说。
"Get up and give him some Coldene," the husband replies.
“站起来，给他喝点感冒药，”丈夫回答道。
In an interview 20 years later, George Lois said, "The idea for the ad hit me like a brainstorm.
20 年后的一次采访中，乔治·路易斯 (George Lois) 说道：“这则广告的想法让我产生了头脑风暴。
This was the first time there would be no copy, no package design, no trademark," he said.
这是第一次没有副本、没有包装设计、没有商标，”他说。
"It was really the beginning of a new creative revolution.
“这确实是一场新的创意革命的开始。
It was one of those ads that made history, effectively." Again, my dad is adamant that the whole ad, copy and design were his.
这是那些有效地创造历史的广告之一。”我父亲再次坚称整个广告、文案和设计都是他的。
There are many possibilities here of what's going on.
这里发生的事情有很多可能性。
George Lois could be lying.
乔治·路易斯可能在撒谎。
Or George Lois could have convinced himself in some way that what he's saying about all this stuff is true.
或者乔治·路易斯可以以某种方式说服自己，他所说的所有这些事情都是真实的。
Or my dad could be doing the same thing, remembering stuff that happened when it didn't happen.
或者我的父亲也可能会做同样的事情，记住那些发生过的事情，而实际上并没有发生。
Or, I suppose, my dad could be lying.
或者，我想，我父亲可能在撒谎。
I'd worry about those latter options more if my father was the only one disputing George Lois' version of history.
如果我父亲是唯一对乔治·路易斯的历史版本提出异议的人，我会更担心后一种选择。
But he's not.
但他不是。
There's the photographer Carl Fischer, who worked with George Lois for more than 30 years and shot many of the most famous Esquire covers.
摄影师卡尔·费舍尔 (Carl Fischer) 与乔治·路易斯 (George Lois) 合作了 30 多年，拍摄了许多最著名的《时尚先生》封面。
Carl Fischer says George is taking credit for cover ideas and photographs that were Carl's and talked in detail about certain photo shoots, like about flying to Las Vegas to shoot the boxer Sonny Liston as Santa, and even placing the Santa cap on Liston's head.
卡尔·费舍尔表示，乔治将卡尔的封面创意和照片归功于乔治，并详细讨论了某些照片拍摄，例如飞往拉斯维加斯拍摄拳击手桑尼·利斯顿扮演圣诞老人，甚至将圣诞老人帽子戴在利斯顿的头上。
Or rushing Italian actress Virna Lisi into a photo shoot in New York for this famous cover where she's pretending to shave her face.
或者催促意大利女演员维尔娜·丽西 (Virna Lisi) 前往纽约拍摄这张著名封面的照片，其中她假装刮胡子。
But Fischer says George wasn't there for either shoot.
但费舍尔说乔治没有参加这两次拍摄。
In fact, the Lisi shoot happened in Rome, and he still has the receipts to prove it.
事实上，李斯的拍摄是在罗马发生的，他还有收据可以证明这一点。
And then there's Shelly Zalaznick, the first editor of New York magazine.
还有雪莉·扎拉兹尼克（Shelly Zalaznick），《纽约》杂志的第一任编辑。
George once told a reporter, quote: "My hand on the Bible, I, George Lois, created New York magazine." Mr. Zalaznick says that's simply not true.
乔治曾经对记者说：“我，乔治·路易斯，是我手上的《圣经》，创办了《纽约》杂志。”扎拉兹尼克先生说这根本不是真的。
He himself remembers making the first dummy front page one hot August night in 1963.
他本人还记得 1963 年八月一个炎热的夜晚制作了第一个虚拟头版。
Not only that, he's never met George Lois.
不仅如此，他从未见过乔治·路易斯。
As for George's version, he told me, I'm a loss.
至于乔治的版本，他告诉我，我很失败。
I don't know why grownups do things like this.
我不明白为什么大人们会做出这样的事情。
But the story my father objects to the most isn't about ad copy at all.
但我父亲最反对的故事根本不是关于广告文案的。
It's personal.
这是个人的。
Papert, Koenig and Lois had gotten the Dutch Masters cigar account, and their TV spokesman at the time was this famous comedian Ernie Kovacs.
帕普特、科尼格和路易斯获得了荷兰大师赛的雪茄账号，他们当时的电视发言人是著名喜剧演员厄尼·科瓦奇。
So my dad flew out to LA to meet him, and they hit it off.
于是我爸爸飞到洛杉矶去见他，他们一拍即合。
And Ernie and I spent the day together, driving around and lunched together, ended the afternoon in the lobby of the hotel I was staying in at the Beverly Hilton.
厄尼和我一起度过了一天，开车到处逛，一起吃午饭，下午在我住的比佛利希尔顿酒店的大堂结束了。
He was not allowed past the lobby because he had short pants on.
由于他穿着短裤，因此不被允许通过大厅。
And then he went off to go to a party that night.
然后那天晚上他就去参加一个聚会了。
And on his way home, it began to rain.
在他回家的路上，天开始下雨了。
His car skidded and went into a pole, and Ernie killed himself.
他的车打滑撞上了一根柱子，厄尼自杀了。
I was on a plane back to New York and learned about it the next morning.
第二天早上我在返回纽约的飞机上得知了这件事。
So, unfortunate incident, but certainly memorable to me.
所以，不幸的事件，但对我来说肯定是难忘的。
And lo and behold--
你瞧——
Lo and behold, in his 2005 book $elebrities, which is spelled with a dollar sign instead of a "C" at the beginning, George tells the story of his lovely lunch with Ernie, his car ride to the airport with Ernie, his red-eye flight back to New York, and his learning the following morning from a stack of still-bound newspapers that Ernie had been killed in a car crash.
你瞧，在他 2005 年出版的《$elebrities》一书中，乔治在书中讲述了他与厄尼共进午餐的故事，他与厄尼一起乘车去机场，他乘坐红眼航班返回纽约，以及第二天早上他从一堆仍然装订的报纸中得知厄尼在车祸中丧生的故事。
My father has tried to fight back, aggressively at times.
我父亲曾试图反击，有时甚至是咄咄逼人。
For instance, after the Ernie Kovacs story appeared in $elebrities, my dad retaliated in the medium he knows best.
例如，在厄尼·科瓦奇的故事出现在《名人》杂志上之后，我父亲在他最熟悉的媒体上进行了报复。
He wrote an ad.
他写了一个广告。
I wrote an ad: "Low, Lower, Lois."
我写了一个广告：“低，低，路易斯。”
That's Lois, L-O-I-S.
那是路易斯，L-O-I-S。
Julian Koenig And I wanted to print it in the New York Times and say: "A book review.
朱利安·科尼格（Julian Koenig） 我想在《纽约时报》上发表它并说：“书评。
A public service book review."
公共服务书评。”
The Times didn't run it, but it did run in Adweek , though toward the back of the magazine, and it got no response.
《泰晤士报》没有刊登它，但它确实在《广告周刊》上刊登了，尽管是在杂志的后面，但没有得到任何回应。
Over the years, he and some of his former colleagues have written to reporters at the New York Times and other places trying to correct the record, but their letters have mostly been ignored.
多年来，他和他的一些前同事曾写信给《纽约时报》和其他地方的记者试图纠正这一记录，但他们的信大多被忽视。
Just last year, a Times story about an exhibit of George Lois' Esquire covers credited him in the very first paragraph with "Think Small," the Xerox ads with the chimp, and a couple of other campaigns people say George either didn't originate or didn't even work on.
就在去年，《泰晤士报》一篇关于乔治·洛伊斯《时尚先生》封面展览的报道在第一段就将其归功于他的“小处思考”、施乐黑猩猩广告以及其他一些活动，人们说乔治不是发起的，甚至没有参与过。
Finally, the Times printed a short correction, giving "Think Small" back to my dad, but it was a small victory three weeks after the fact.
最后，《泰晤士报》刊登了一个简短的更正，将“细想”还给了我父亲，但在事发三周后，这是一个小小的胜利。
In the mid '80s, my dad wrote a letter to George directly, threatening to sue, it seems, and received a letter back calling him a sad, tortured and tragic figure.
八十年代中期，我父亲直接给乔治写了一封信，似乎威胁要起诉，但收到了回信，称他是一个悲伤、饱受折磨的悲剧人物。
All in all, my father's efforts haven't really done the damage he's hoped or really any damage at all.
总而言之，我父亲的努力并没有真正造成他所希望的损害，或者说根本没有造成任何损害。
He's an indignant Basset Hound, nipping at the heels of the media's Great Dane.
他是一只愤怒的巴吉度猎犬，紧追着媒体的大丹犬。
George Lois is a good talker with an engaging personality, and he's become something of a spokesman for the advertising industry.
乔治·路易斯是一位健谈的人，性格迷人，他已经成为广告业的代言人。
There are quotes in the newspaper and magazine profiles, exhibits, books.
报纸和杂志的简介、展品、书籍中都有引用。
Errors printed once are repeated and repeated.
打印一次的错误会不断重复。
So if you look up "Think Small" on the internet, for instance, you'll find it attributed to Julian Koenig, but you're also likely to learn that George Lois wrote it.
例如，如果您在互联网上查找“Think Small”，您会发现它是朱利安·科尼格（Julian Koenig）的作品，但您也可能会发现它是乔治·路易斯（George Lois）写的。
I like the way he took credit for accounts he never had anything to do with, because that made it almost comical.
我喜欢他把与他无关的账户归功于他的方式，因为这几乎变得滑稽。
All the Xerox stuff, Xerox stuff in the account that I got, was done by Sam Scali and I think Mike Chappell, and George at the end started taking credit for that, too.
所有施乐的东西，我收到的帐户中的施乐的东西，都是由萨姆·斯卡利（Sam Scali）和我认为迈克·查佩尔（Mike Chappell）完成的，最后乔治也开始为此获得荣誉。
That's Fred Papert, the P of PKL.
那是 Fred Papert，PKL 的 P。
He was the guy who recruited Lois and Koenig to make a new agency in 1960.
1960 年，他招募了 Lois 和 Koenig 组建了一家新机构。
Now he's one of the guys responsible for redeveloping Times Square as president of the 42nd Street Development Corporation.
现在，他是第 42 街开发公司的总裁，是负责重建时代广场的人之一。
He knows the stories all too well: Xerox, Harvey Probber, Coldene, Ernie Kovacs even.
他对这些故事太了解了：施乐、哈维·普罗伯、科尔登、甚至厄尼·科瓦奇。
It's nuts.
太疯狂了。
I think he's really got a screw loose.
我觉得他真的是螺丝松了。
I think George truly doesn't know what he's doing.
我认为乔治真的不知道自己在做什么。
But it's nutty on both sides.
但两边都很疯狂。
Fred's in my dad's camp insofar as he knows and believes my dad is telling the truth.
弗雷德站在我父亲的立场上，因为他知道并相信我父亲说的是实话。
But his support more or less stops there.
但他的支持或多或少就到此为止了。
And he's categorical on this point, that my dad is himself acting like a nut, wasting his time.
他在这一点上很明确，我父亲自己表现得像个疯子，浪费时间。
They've talked about this on rides to and from the racetrack.
他们在往返赛马场的路上讨论过这个问题。
The reason that Julian should not be fussing about this stuff at this stage is A, nobody gives a [BLEEP].
Julian 在这个阶段不应该对这些事情大惊小怪的原因是 A，没有人发出[BLEEP]。
B, anybody that would give a [BLEEP] knows already what it's about because this is what George does.
B，任何会发出[BLEEP]声的人都已经知道它是什么意思，因为这就是乔治所做的。
It's George's thing.
这是乔治的事。
They've just got to put a lid on it.
他们只需盖上盖子即可。
But I've had this conversation with him 100 times, and he gets really pissed off, so I know he's got a screw loose, too.
但我已经和他进行了 100 次这样的谈话，他真的很生气，所以我知道他也有问题。
Your father can be a pain in the ass, you know.
你知道，你的父亲可能是个让人头疼的人。
And even be testy if you say to him, Julian, [BLEEP] off already.
如果你对他说，朱利安，[BLEEP]已经走了，那就更暴躁了。
We've heard this story, and we know about the wobbling chair or the wobbling floor.
我们听过这个故事，也知道摇晃的椅子或摇晃的地板。
I've forgotten which one.
我已经忘记是哪一个了
You have no idea how many letters we wrote to the New York Times, to Advertising Age , to this and that.
你不知道我们给《纽约时报》、《广告时代》、这个那个写了多少封信。
This is a dialogue between old farts.
这是老屁之间的对话。
Julian's in another world from these kinds of things.
朱利安已经远离了这些事情，进入了另一个世界。
Julian is one of the great thinkers and creators in the advertising business.
朱利安是广告界最伟大的思想家和创造者之一。
If some nutcase claims credit, who cares?
如果某个疯子声称功劳，谁在乎呢？
And he doesn't even really like me very much.
而且他甚至不太喜欢我。
You have to understand that that's where we start.
你必须明白，这就是我们的起点。
Well, it's true.
嗯，这是真的。
I think he goes to the races with me because I have a car.
我想他和我一起去比赛是因为我有车。
My father recognizes that there are only about four people left on Earth who care about this stuff.
我父亲认识到地球上只剩下大约四个人关心这些东西。
It's just that he happens to be one of them, and he cannot let it go.
只是他恰好是其中一员，他无法释怀。
I assume if I had a different personality, I would I say I know what I've done.
我想如果我有不同的性格，我会说我知道我做了什么。
And those dear and near to me know what I have done or not done, and I'm OK with that.
那些我亲爱的和亲近的人知道我做了什么或没做什么，我对此很满意。
But I'm a fallible fellow, obviously with ego of his own, and I resent being burgled.
但我是个容易犯错的人，显然很自负，而且我讨厌被盗窃。
The odd thing about all this, as my older brother John points out, is that my father has never exactly been a champion of advertising.
正如我的哥哥约翰所指出的，这一切的奇怪之处在于我的父亲从来都不是广告界的拥护者。
And he never believed he didn't have a-- he wasn't a true believer in the business.
他从不相信自己没有——他不是这个行业的真正信徒。
I mean, I remember him saying to me as a kid, you know, if you don't find something you want to do and really work at it, you're going to end up like me: a writer of short sentences.
我的意思是，我记得他小时候对我说，你知道，如果你找不到你想做的事情并真正努力去做，你最终会像我一样：一个短句作家。
That's verbatim.
这是逐字逐句的。
And so, it's a little ironic, you know?
所以，这有点讽刺，你知道吗？
Because he didn't care.
因为他不在乎。
That's the thing, Sarah.
就是这样，莎拉。
You know, all those years he didn't care, because I think he thought it was beneath him.
你知道，这些年来他并不在意，因为我认为他认为这有失身份。
And the business in some ways was not beneath him but was not serious enough to care that much about.
从某些方面来说，这件事并不在他之下，但也没有严肃到值得他关心的程度。
And now he does.
现在他做到了。
I understand why he cares.
我明白他为什么关心。
He's 88 years old now, so his legacy, understandably, is on his mind.
他现在已经 88 岁了，所以他心里挂念着他的遗产，这是可以理解的。
And even though he did campaigns for all sorts of good causes-- gun control, nuclear proliferation, Robert Kennedy's senatorial and presidential campaigns-- my father's not quite satisfied with his life's work.
尽管他为各种美好的事业进行了竞选活动——枪支管制、核扩散、罗伯特·肯尼迪的参议员和总统竞选——但我父亲对他一生的工作并不太满意。
Advertising is built on puffery, and, at heart, deception, and I don't think anybody can go proudly into the next world with a career built on deception, even though no matter how well they do it.
广告是建立在吹嘘的基础上的，本质上是欺骗，我认为任何人都不能自豪地以欺骗为基础的职业进入下一个世界，即使他们做得有多好。
You're not necessarily proud that you had a career in the field of advertising and that's your legacy, but you are proud that you were the best in the business at the thing you chose to do.
你不一定会因为自己在广告领域从事职业而感到自豪，那是你的遗产，但你会为自己在自己选择做的事情上是业内最优秀的而感到自豪。
If he could go back, choose another career, my father would have liked to have been an environmentalist of some kind, which is why he'd really like to be remembered for something almost nobody knows he did: naming Earth Day.
如果我父亲可以回去，选择另一个职业，他会希望成为某种环保主义者，这就是为什么他真的希望因为几乎没人知道他所做的事情而被人们记住：命名地球日。
It agitated him to look up Earth Day on Wikipedia recently and not see his name anywhere.
最近他在维基百科上查找地球日，却没有看到他的名字，这让他很兴奋。
So a few days ago, I added it.
所以几天前，我添加了它。
Sarah Koenig is one of the producers of our program.
莎拉·科尼格 (Sarah Koenig) 是我们节目的制作人之一。
Coming up, a dead man's kid versus the US Supreme Court.
接下来是死者的孩子与美国最高法院的对决。
That's in a minute.
就在一分钟之内。
Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台当我们的节目继续时。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our show, we choose a theme and bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
我们的节目每周都会选择一个主题，并为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's show: origin stories, where we go back to figure out where things came from.
今天的节目：起源故事，让我们回溯事物的起源。
We've arrived at Act Two of our show.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two, The Secret Life of Secrets.
第二幕，秘密的秘密生活。
This week, when the Attorney General appeared before the Senate Judiciary Committee, he told them that any day now, he'll be delivering the Administration take on how to change the state secrets privilege.
本周，当司法部长出现在参议院司法委员会面前时，他告诉他们，现在的任何一天，他都将向政府提出如何改变国家机密特权的意见。
And I don't know about you, but for me, every time this comes up in the news, I have to be reminded what the hell the state secrets privilege actually is in the first place.
我不了解你的情况，但对我来说，每次新闻中出现这种情况时，我都必须首先提醒我国家机密特权到底是什么。
And every time I read about it and relearn it, I think to myself, oh, right.
每次我读到并重新学习它时，我都会对自己说，哦，对了。
That's one of those legal things that anybody can understand.
这是任何人都能理解的法律事物之一。
Basically, it's this: If you are suing the US Government, the Government can claim that taking your case to court would reveal sensitive national security information.
基本上是这样的：如果您起诉美国政府，政府可以声称将您的案件告上法庭会泄露敏感的国家安全信息。
If they do that, simply by making that claim, they can get your case thrown out of court.
如果他们这样做，只需提出这一主张，他们就可以让你的案件被法庭驳回。
The judge won't even usually look at the evidence to see if the Government is fibbing.
法官通常甚至不会查看证据来判断政府是否在撒谎。
Democrat and Republican presidents have both used this to get all kinds of cases dismissed.
民主党和共和党总统都曾利用这一点驳回各种案件。
Under the Bush administration, this increased dramatically.
在布什政府执政期间，这一数字急剧增加。
They got judges to throw out lawsuits regarding the torture and rendition of detainees in the War on Terror, over Guantanamo, over the wiretapping of American citizens.
他们让法官驳回有关反恐战争中酷刑和引渡被拘留者、关塔那摩监狱以及窃听美国公民的诉讼。
Yeah, well, the state secrets privilege came about as a result of a 1953 Supreme Court decision, US v.
是的，国家机密特权是 1953 年最高法院裁决“美国诉美国”案的结果。
Reynolds.
雷诺兹。
This is Barry Siegel, a reporter who wrote about the true story of US v.
我是巴里·西格尔 (Barry Siegel)，一位报道美国诉美国案真实故事的记者。
Reynolds for the LA Times and later in a book called Claim of Privilege.
雷诺兹为《洛杉矶时报》以及后来的《特权主张》一书发表了这一观点。
It is very possible that if we could somehow send his book back in time to the year 1953 and let the Supreme Court justices read what really happened in US v.
如果我们能以某种方式把他的书送回到 1953 年，让最高法院的法官们看看美国诉美国案中到底发生了什么，这是很有可能的。
Reynolds, they would have decided the case differently.
雷诺兹，他们会对这个案子做出不同的决定。
Some important facts have come to light in the last half century about the case.
在过去的半个世纪里，有关此案的一些重要事实已经曝光。
As a public service right now, in case any of you hearing my voice do someday get teleported back to the year 1953, we present now the true origin of US v.
作为目前的一项公共服务，万一你们中有人听到我的声音有一天会被传送回 1953 年，我们现在介绍美国诉美国案的真正起源。
Reynolds.
雷诺兹。
A US Air Force B-29 in October 1948 took off in Georgia to test an experimental navigation system, radar system.
1948 年 10 月，美国空军一架 B-29 在乔治亚州起飞，测试实验性导航系统、雷达系统。
Three civilian engineers from RCA were onboard as part of the test team.
来自 RCA 的三名民用工程师作为测试团队的一部分登上了飞机。
The plane engines caught fire.
飞机发动机着火了。
The plane crashed over Waycross, Georgia, October 6, 1948.
1948 年 10 月 6 日，这架飞机在佐治亚州韦克罗斯上空坠毁。
The widows of the three civilian engineers onboard sued the Government: negligence.
船上三名土木工程师的遗孀起诉政府：疏忽。
During discovery process, the widows asked for the Air Force accident report.
在发现过程中，寡妇们要求提供空军事故报告。
The Government wouldn't turn it over, wouldn't turn over the accident report.
政府不会交出它，不会交出事故报告。
A Federal District judge, a very brave one, William Kirkpatrick, who was hearing the case, ordered the Government to produce the document.
一位非常勇敢的联邦地区法官威廉·柯克帕特里克（William Kirkpatrick）正在审理此案，他命令政府出示这份文件。
He said you can just turn it over to me in private.
他说你可以私下交给我。
I'll look at it in chambers.
我会在房间里看看。
The Government wouldn't hand it over even to the judge to look at in private in chambers.
政府甚至不会将其交给法官在法庭上私下审理。
Because the Government would not comply with his order to turn over the accident report, the judge declares the widows the winners in this case by default.
由于政府不肯听从他的命令，交出事故报告，法官默认宣布寡妇为本案的获胜者。
An appeals court agrees.
上诉法院同意这一观点。
It gets to the Supreme Court, whose decision you already know.
它会提交给最高法院，你已经知道最高法院的决定。
It overturns the lower two courts, finds in favor of the Government, says the Government does not have to hand over the accident report once it claims that this would reveal state secrets.
它推翻了下级两级法院的裁决，做出了有利于政府的裁决，称一旦政府声称这会泄露国家机密，政府就不必交出事故报告。
But understand what happens next.
但要了解接下来会发生什么。
There's an important thing you need to keep in mind about this Supreme Court decision.
关于最高法院的这一决定，您需要牢记一件重要的事情。
Keep in mind, in 1953, the Supreme Court in ruling for the Government never itself asked to see the accident report.
请记住，1953 年，最高法院在为政府做出裁决时从未要求查看事故报告。
It voted in 1953 to believe the Government when it said it contained state secrets.
1953 年，它投票相信政府所说的内容包含国家机密。
And that's the foundation for the whole state secrets privilege in US v.
这就是美国诉美国案中整个国家机密特权的基础。
Reynolds .
雷诺兹.
It says that we have to trust the Government.
它说我们必须相信政府。
If they can convince us that national security is at risk, then you don't have to even ask for the documents.
如果他们能让我们相信国家安全面临风险，那么你甚至不需要索要文件。
So they never saw it.
所以他们从来没有见过。
No one ever saw the accident report back then.
当时没有人看过事故报告。
So 50 years passed.
就这样50年过去了。
The families of these three civilians who had perished in the plane, they tried for years to find out more of what happened on that plane.
这三名在飞机上遇难的平民的家人多年来一直试图了解飞机上发生的更多事情。
They never could.
他们永远不能。
The children of the engineers, who really never knew their fathers, always wondered who they were and what had happened to them.
工程师的孩子们从来不知道自己的父亲是谁，他们总是想知道他们是谁，发生了什么事。
One of them particularly, Judy Loether, she was seven weeks old when her father Al Palya died.
其中一位特别是朱迪·洛瑟 (Judy Loether)，她的父亲阿尔·帕利亚 (Al Palya) 去世时，她才七周大。
I knew my father had died in a plane crash, and I knew it was an Air Force plane, and I knew that there was a secret project.
我知道我的父亲在一次飞机失事中丧生，我知道那是一架空军飞机，我知道有一个秘密项目。
This is Judy Loether.
这是朱迪·洛瑟。
Now, of course, she's grown.
当然，现在她已经长大了。
She lives in a town not far from Boston.
她住在离波士顿不远的一个小镇。
The biggest question I had was what secret project were they doing on that plane?
我最大的问题是他们在那架飞机上正在做什么秘密项目？
I mean, you know, what did my father die for?
我的意思是，你知道我父亲为什么而死吗？
Over the years, she'd go into little spurts of looking into this.
多年来，她不断地对此进行调查。
She exchanged letters with a man who had survived the crash.
她与一名在空难中幸存的男子交换了信件。
She went through her father's old papers and technical manuals.
她翻阅了父亲的旧论文和技术手册。
And then in the late 1990s, she got a computer and started searching the internet.
然后在 20 世纪 90 年代末，她买了一台电脑并开始在互联网上搜索。
She learned all about B-29s and about the bomb site device that her dad worked on as an engineer.
她了解了有关 B-29 以及她父亲作为工程师所开发的炸弹定位装置的所有信息。
It made her feel closer to him to see pictures of these things that he had made.
看到他制作的这些东西的照片让她感觉离他更近了。
She printed stuff out.
她把东西打印出来。
She kept it in a notebook.
她把它记在笔记本里。
And then one night in February 2000, she sat down at a computer.
2000 年 2 月的一个晚上，她坐在电脑前。
And again, my cursor was on that blank box.
我的光标再次落在那个空白框上。
And I said, well, what do I want to look up tonight?
我说，好吧，今晚我想查什么？
And for the first time, I typed in the combination of B-29 plus accident, and I had never done that before.
我第一次输入了 B-29 加上事故的组合，我以前从未这样做过。
And the first hit was accidentreport.com.
第一个点击的是accidentreport.com。
And this page comes up.
这个页面出现了。
Accident reports from military crashes from 1918 through 1955.
1918 年至 1955 年军事事故的事故报告。
All of these reports had been declassified in the 1990s.
所有这些报告均已于 20 世纪 90 年代解密。
And I remember looking at those words and reading them like three times and thinking 1948.
我记得我看着这些文字，读了三遍，想起了 1948 年。
Wow!
哇！
This place is going to have the report of that plane crash?
这里会传来那次飞机失事的报告吗？
Now, at the time, did you know that this report had been the subject of a lawsuit and that the Government refused to give your mom and the other widows this very accident report that suddenly you're actually able to get from this guy for $60-something?
现在，当时，您是否知道这份报告已成为诉讼的主题，并且政府拒绝向您的妈妈和其他寡妇提供这份事故报告，而您突然可以花 60 美元左右从这个人那里得到这份报告？
I hadn't a clue.
我一点头绪也没有。
I knew there had been a lawsuit, but that's all I knew.
我知道有人提起诉讼，但我只知道这些。
And did you know that the lawsuit turned into this famous Supreme Court precedent?
您知道这起诉讼后来变成了最高法院这个著名的判例吗？
No. I had no idea.
不，我不知道。
Barry Siegel Two weeks later, Judy Loether gets mail from him, this accident report that her mom and the other widows had vainly sought 50 years before.
巴里·西格尔 (Barry Siegel) 两周后，朱迪·洛瑟 (Judy Loether) 收到了他的邮件，这是她妈妈和其他寡妇 50 年前徒劳地寻找的一份事故报告。
And what's interesting about this is that she's kind of disappointed when she pulls out the accident report because she's not looking for the cause of the accident.
有趣的是，当她拿出事故报告时，她有点失望，因为她并没有寻找事故原因。
What she really wants to know is what the secret thing was that her dad was doing on that plane.
她真正想知道的是她爸爸在那架飞机上做了什么秘密的事情。
It was just a way to get to know about her dad.
这只是了解她父亲的一种方式。
And to her great frustration, when she pulls out the accident report and reads it is that there's no reference at all to the secret project her father was working on.
令她非常沮丧的是，当她拿出事故报告并读到其中根本没有提到她父亲正在从事的秘密项目时。
There was nothing in there about the secret equipment or the secret mission of the plane other than the mention that there was secret equipment on the plane.
里面除了提到飞机上有秘密设备外，没有任何关于秘密设备或飞机的秘密任务的内容。
And that, of course, was in the newspapers.
当然，这也上了报纸。
Instead of that stuff, what was in the accident report was a stark, very detailed account of Air Force negligence.
事故报告中的内容并不是这些内容，而是对空军疏忽的赤裸裸、非常详细的描述。
There was a lot of negligence.
有很多疏忽。
This particular B-29 had a history of trouble: fuel leaks, faulty engines.
这架特殊的 B-29 曾有过麻烦的历史：燃油泄漏、发动机故障。
It had been repeatedly grounded.
它曾多次被停飞。
The engines on all B-29s had a tendency to overheat and were supposed to get special heat shields installed to fix that, but this plane never got them.
所有 B-29 上的发动机都有过热的倾向，应该安装特殊的隔热罩来解决这个问题，但这架飞机从未安装过。
On this flight, the engines caught fire, and the pilot made some errors that compounded that problem and sent the plane into a spin.
在这次飞行中，发动机起火，飞行员犯了一些错误，使问题变得更加复杂，并使飞机陷入旋转。
Disturbed and saddened, Judy thought that she should share this document with other families from the crash, and from newspaper clippings, she learned of another woman whose father died that day: Susan Brauner.
朱迪感到不安和悲伤，她认为她应该与坠机事件中的其他家庭分享这份文件，并从剪报中，她了解到另一位父亲当天去世的妇女：苏珊·布劳纳。
When she met Brauner, it was Brauner who told her about the Supreme Court decision.
当她见到布劳纳时，正是布劳纳告诉了她最高法院的判决。
Within a half an hour of when I got home, I was reading that decision.
当我回到家后的半小时内，我就读到了这个决定。
And it was that moment, as I'm reading through the decision and it's all hinging on this accident report which I have, and I'm reading it, and the justices are saying in their decision it's a reasonable assumption that this accident report talks about the secret equipment and the secret mission, and I'm saying no. No, it doesn't talk about that at all.
就在那一刻，当我通读判决时，一切都取决于我所拥有的这份事故报告，我正在阅读它，法官们在他们的判决中说，这份事故报告谈论秘密设备和秘密任务是一个合理的假设，而我说不。不，它根本没有谈论这个。
I couldn't understand it.
我无法理解。
It just really upset me.
这真的让我很沮丧。
And then I think the fact that Reynolds was being used over and over again by the Government, it was such an important case, and it was based on this lie.
然后我认为雷诺兹被政府一次又一次地利用，这是一个如此重要的案件，而且是基于这个谎言。
In his reporting, Barry Siegel lists some of the other kinds of cases that have fallen under the state secrets privilege since this precedent was set.
巴里·西格尔在他的报告中列出了自该先例确立以来属于国家机密特权的一些其他案件。
"In 1990," he writes, "families of 37 crew members who were killed by Iraqi missiles hitting the USS Stark sued the contractors responsible for the ship's antimissile system.
“1990 年，”他写道，“因伊拉克导弹击中斯塔克号而丧生的 37 名船员的家人起诉了负责该舰反导弹系统的承包商。
The Government said trying the case would reveal state secrets, and this got it thrown out of court.
政府称审理此案会泄露国家机密，因此法庭被驳回。
In 2000, a CIA employee sued the agency for gender discrimination.
2000年，一名中央情报局雇员起诉该机构性别歧视。
The Government said trying the case would reveal state secrets, and this got it thrown out of court.
政府称审理此案会泄露国家机密，因此法庭被驳回。
In 2003, a senior engineer said a Defense contractor had submitted false test results on an antimissile vehicle.
2003年，一名高级工程师称，一家国防承包商提交了反导弹车辆的虚假测试结果。
The Government said trying this case would reveal state secrets and got that thrown out of court."
政府表示审理此案会泄露国家机密，并被法院驳回。”
And so, Siegel says, "Its disturbing that in the case that made all this possible-- US v.
因此，西格尔说，“令人不安的是，在美国诉美国的案件中，这一切成为可能。”
Reynolds-- the Government said that it couldn't turn over an accident report because this would reveal state secrets.
雷诺兹——政府表示不能交出事故报告，因为这会泄露国家机密。
But there seemed to be no state secrets at all in the accident report.
但事故报告中似乎根本没有任何国家机密。
At that point, it wasn't even a secret that B-29s were having these terrible mechanical problems.
那时，B-29 存在这些可怕的机械问题甚至不是什么秘密。
It's really interesting, US v.
这真的很有趣，美国诉。
Reynolds based on a lie.
雷诺兹基于谎言。
The very case that establishes the right of the state secrets privilege is a perfect example of why the Government shouldn't have that privilege.
确立国家秘密特权的案件本身就是为什么政府不应该拥有这种特权的完美例子。
As for Judy, the more she thought about it, the more she was bothered by the fact that the Government's lawyers back in the 1950s must have read the accident report themselves, so they must have known that the Air Force was negligent.
至于朱迪，她越想越觉得困扰，因为20世纪50年代的政府律师肯定看过事故报告，所以他们一定知道空军的疏忽。
But when the lower courts found them negligent and awarded the widows some money, these Government lawyers kept appealing that decision, all the way up to the Supreme Court.
但当下级法院发现他们疏忽并判给寡妇一些钱时，这些政府律师不断对该决定提出上诉，一直上诉到最高法院。
That again is disturbing to me, because it's not like they were some corporation.
这再次让我感到不安，因为他们不像是某个公司。
These were three widows whose husbands were dead because of their negligence, but they were going to get their precedent at our cost.
这三位寡妇的丈夫因她们的疏忽而死，但她们要以我们为代价来获得先例。
So Judy and two other families from the crash went back to the Philadelphia law firm that had originally represented her mom and the other widows back in 1953.
因此，朱迪和另外两个车祸家庭回到了费城律师事务所，该律师事务所最初在 1953 年代表她的母亲和其他寡妇。
And together, they filed a new petition in the Supreme Court.
他们一起向最高法院提交了一份新的请愿书。
Not asking that US v.
不问美国诉。
Reynolds cease to be a precedent.
雷诺兹不再是先例。
Too many other cases had agreed with the finding in Reynolds that that wasn't really an option.
太多其他案例都同意雷诺兹的发现，即这实际上并不是一个选择。
And the goal wasn't to overturn the state secrets privilege.
其目标并不是推翻国家机密特权。
Instead, they wanted the court to acknowledge that the Government had lied about the contents of the accident report, that the Government had committed fraud before the Supreme Court, and they wanted the court to award monetary damages that should have gone to the widows back then.
相反，他们希望法院承认政府在事故报告的内容上撒了谎，政府在最高法院犯下了欺诈罪，他们希望法院判给当时本应给予寡妇的金钱赔偿。
This gets a little technical into the legal, but the Supreme Court invited the Solicitor General--
这在法律上有点技术性，但最高法院邀请副检察长——
The Solicitor General, of course, the administration's lawyer who deals with the Supreme Court.
当然，副检察长是与最高法院打交道的政府律师。
--to respond to this petition.
——回应这份请愿书。
And the Solicitor General's argument essentially said we are not in a position now, us sitting here 50 years later, to know why the Air Force made a state secrets claim.
副检察长的论点本质上是说，50 年后的今天，我们坐在这里，无法了解空军为何提出国家机密主张。
We're not experts, and we can't know what their reasons were 50 years before.
我们不是专家，我们无法知道50年前他们的理由是什么。
The Supreme Court declined to hear the case.
最高法院拒绝审理此案。
So even though the Supreme Court refused to take this case, can their petition have an effect on the law in some way?
那么，即使最高法院拒绝受理此案，他们的请愿是否会对法律产生某种影响呢？
Can it be cited?
可以引用吗？
Has it been cited?
是否被引用过？
Yes.
是的。
That's exactly what their legacy is.
这正是他们的遗产。
I think that they didn't prevail in the Supreme Court.
我认为他们在最高法院没有获胜。
They prevailed in the two ways that they probably most were seeking some effect.
他们以两种方式取得了胜利，而这两种方式可能是他们最想寻求的效果。
First of all, they sure got their story out.
首先，他们确实把自己的故事讲出来了。
And the other thing that they did is that lawyers now involved in litigation with the Government have started to talk about the origins of the US v.
他们做的另一件事是，现在参与与政府诉讼的律师已经开始谈论“美国诉美国”案的起源。
Reynolds decision.
雷诺兹的决定。
Now when the Government waives the state secrets flag in court, the other side can get up and say, well, wait a second.
现在，当政府在法庭上放弃国家机密旗帜时，对方可以站起来说，好吧，等一下。
And it has happened.
这已经发生了。
I can tell you there was a recent Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals decision, which finally-- one of the few rare ones, which did limit a Government state secrets claim.
我可以告诉你，第九巡回上诉法院最近做出了一项裁决，这是为数不多的罕见裁决之一，它确实限制了政府国家机密的主张。
The court said, in this case, that they wouldn't just take the Government's word about whether there were secrets in the documents being discussed.
法院表示，在本案中，他们不会只相信政府关于正在讨论的文件中是否存在秘密的说法。
The Government would have to show the documents to the judges, one by one, in private.
政府必须私下向法官一一展示这些文件。
In this decision in the Ninth Circuit, which just came out in the last few weeks, there was a footnote in which these appellate judges cited what you and I are talking about today.
第九巡回法院在过去几周刚刚做出的裁决中，有一个脚注，其中这些上诉法官引用了你和我今天所谈论的内容。
They cited the fact that US v.
他们引用了美国诉美国的事实。
Reynolds-- it said the dubious origins of US v.
雷诺兹——它说美国诉美国的可疑起源。
Reynolds.
雷诺兹。
In 2008, Judy Loether testified before Congress.
2008 年，朱迪·洛特 (Judy Loether) 在国会作证。
And when Senators Edward Kennedy and then Republican Arlen Specter introduced a bill to regulate the state secrets privilege once and for all, a bill that would tell judges not just to take the Government's word when it claims that a state secret is involved in the case, but actually look at the evidence to be sure that it's true, they cited what happened in Reynolds.
当参议员爱德华·肯尼迪和后来的共和党人阿伦·斯佩克特提出一项一劳永逸地监管国家机密特权的法案时，该法案将告诉法官，当政府声称案件涉及国家机密时，不仅要相信政府的话，而且要实际查看证据以确保其属实，他们引用了雷诺兹案中发生的事情。
This is from the press release, quote: "Recently declassified information about the Supreme Court's leading decision on the state secrets privilege-- US v.
这是来自新闻稿，引用：“最近解密了有关最高法院关于国家机密特权的主要判决的信息——美国诉美国案”。
Reynolds-- provides an early example of executive abuse of the privilege.
雷诺兹提供了高管滥用特权的早期例子。
That kind of abuse will no longer be possible under the State Secrets Protection Act."
根据《国家秘密保护法》，这种滥用行为将不再可能。”
A version of the bill came out of a House subcommittee this week.
众议院小组委员会本周提出了该法案的一个版本。
The bill's on the schedule to be marked up next week by the Senate Judiciary Committee.
参议院司法委员会将于下周对该法案进行标记。
[MUSIC - "FRIENDS AND ANCESTORS" BY NEDELLE]
[音乐 - NEDELLE 的“朋友和祖先”]
Now, this origin story.
现在，这个起源故事。
Our colleague at WBEZ and the host of the public radio show Wait Wait-- Don't Tell Me!, Mr. Peter Sagal, used to be a playwright.
我们在 WBEZ 的同事、公共广播节目《等等，别告诉我！》的主持人 Peter Sagal 先生曾经是一位剧作家。
And to give you a sense of the kind of work that he did as a playwright, his most successful play, he says, was about a Holocaust denier and the Jewish attorney who represented that Holocaust denier in court.
他说，为了让你了解他作为剧作家所做的工作，他最成功的戏剧是关于大屠杀否认者和在法庭上代表大屠杀否认者的犹太律师。
And so it was all intellectual arguments and drama and involved the Holocaust and questions of the First Amendment law.
因此，这都是知识分子的争论和戏剧，涉及大屠杀和第一修正案的问题。
And it came to the attention of this producer Lawrence Bender, who is most well known for being Quentin Tarantino's producer.
它引起了制片人劳伦斯·本德的注意，他因担任昆汀·塔伦蒂诺的制片人而闻名。
So he produced, among many other movies, Reservoir Dogs and Pulp Fiction and so on and so forth.
因此，他制作了许多其他电影，例如《落水狗》和《低俗小说》等等。
Back in the '90s when all this happened, Bender read Peter's play and liked it and called him up and asked Peter if he wanted to write a movie.
早在上世纪 90 年代，当这一切发生时，本德读了彼得的剧本，很喜欢它，并给他打电话，问彼得是否想写一部电影。
And Peter basically had been waiting for this phone call from Hollywood forever.
彼得基本上一直在等待好莱坞打来的电话。
I mean, I think in the year 1992, my annual income was $10,000.
我的意思是，我想在 1992 年，我的年收入是 10,000 美元。
Yeah, this was the phone call that you wait for.
是的，这就是您等待的电话。
So after tossing around some different ideas for this film, Lawrence Bender introduces Peter to this woman who he works with, who at 15 had been an American in Cuba when the Cuban Revolution happened.
因此，在对这部电影提出了一些不同的想法之后，劳伦斯·本德向彼得介绍了这位与他一起工作的女士，她 15 岁时在古巴革命发生时是古巴的美国人。
Maybe there's a film in that.
也许有一部电影。
So Peter starts writing this film that's half romance, growing-up film, half politics about an American teenage girl in Cuba in the '50s.
于是彼得开始写这部一半是浪漫、一半是成长、一半是政治的电影，讲述了一个 50 年代在古巴的美国少女的故事。
And I had no-- I didn't know anything about the Cuban Revolution.
我对古巴革命一无所知。
But one of the things I found out was that everybody involved with it was incredibly young.
但我发现的一件事是，参与其中的每个人都非常年轻。
Castro himself was only 29.
卡斯特罗本人年仅29岁。
They were all 17, 18, 19, 20 years old, these guys up in the mountains with him.
他们都是17岁、18岁、19岁、20岁，这些人和他一起在山上。
And one of the things that actually happened was almost as soon as they took over, the Cuban Revolution, these wonderful young Democrats, freedom-loving rebels from the mountains, started executing people on television.
实际发生的事情之一几乎是他们一接管古巴革命，这些出色的年轻民主党人，来自山区的热爱自由的叛乱分子，就开始在电视上处决人民。
And in my original conception, there were two parallel stories.
而在我最初的构想中，有两个平行的故事。
There was Maria, who I called the central character, who had a rebellious-- more typically adolescent rebellion going against her own parents.
玛丽亚，我称之为中心人物，她有一种叛逆——更典型的是青春期的叛逆，反对她自己的父母。
And then there was her romantic interest, a character named Josefo, who was a Cuban and was sort of a third-column rebel underground guy, living and working in Havana to undermine the regime, sometimes through violence.
然后是她的浪漫兴趣，一个名叫约瑟夫的角色，他是古巴人，是第三纵队的地下叛乱分子，在哈瓦那生活和工作，破坏政权，有时通过暴力。
And eventually this film did get made and--
最终这部电影确实拍成了——
It did.
确实如此。
Ira Glass It did.
艾拉·格拉斯 确实如此。
It finally got made a bit later, and I'm just going to play a clip here from it.
稍后它终于制作完成了，我将在这里播放其中的一个片段。
Did it ever occur to you that that boy might be using you?
你有没有想过那个男孩可能在利用你？
A nice American girl--
一个漂亮的美国女孩——
No. Jeannie Miller -- who can be his ticket out.
不，珍妮·米勒（Jeannie Miller）——她可以成为他的出局门票。
Please, no. That's not true.
拜托，不。那不是真的。
Jeannie Miller You may love dancing with that boy, but there are more important factors here like your family and your future!
Jeannie Miller 你可能喜欢和那个男孩跳舞，但这里还有更重要的因素，比如你的家庭和你的未来！
Why does it have to be either/or?
为什么它必须是非此即彼？
Just because you gave up your passion, why should I?
就因为你放弃了你的热情，我又何必呢？
[SLAP]
[啪]
So that's a clip from the film.
这是电影中的一个片段。
You want to just let people know the title of the film?
你想让人们知道电影的标题吗？
The title of the film is Dirty Dancing 2-- colon-- Havana Nights.
影片名称为《辣身舞2——冒号——哈瓦那之夜》。
Now, I have to say, I watched the movie last night.
现在，我不得不说，我昨晚看了这部电影。
I watched Dirty Dancing 2--
我看了《辣身舞2》——
There is not a single line of dialogue in that movie that I wrote.
我写的那部电影里没有一句台词。
So how does a film go from political coming-of-age drama to Dirty Dancing 2: Havana Nights?
那么，一部电影是如何从政治成长剧转变为《辣身舞2：哈瓦那之夜》的呢？
Well, of course, it's an old Hollywood story.
嗯，当然，这是一个古老的好莱坞故事。
Peter writes his film.
彼得写他的电影。
He turns it in.
他把它交了。
They ask him to make it more like-- oh, maybe could it be more like Dirty Dancing?
他们要求他让它更像——哦，也许它可以更像辣身舞？
Innocent girl with a semi-dangerous guy?
无辜的女孩和一个半危险的男人？
And sometimes I think back on the experience, and I say, you know, I should have said to them, hey, if that's what you want, I'm really not the guy for it.
有时我回想起这段经历，我会说，你知道，我应该对他们说，嘿，如果那是你想要的，我真的不是那个人。
He says each draft got worse and worse.
他说每次选秀都变得越来越糟糕。
Even he didn't like it.
就连他自己也不喜欢。
Finally, it was shelved.
最后，就被搁置了。
Years later, the producer who actually owned the rights to the film Dirty Dancing teamed up with Lawrence Bender to make a sequel, and somebody thought of Peter's old script.
多年后，真正拥有电影《辣身舞》版权的制片人与劳伦斯·本德联手制作了续集，有人想到了彼得的旧剧本。
All the politics of the film got reduced to this one moment where, really, unconnected to anything else in the film, somebody attempts to shoot some unidentified political figure at the climax of the dance contest.
电影中的所有政治都被简化为这一时刻，实际上，与电影中的其他任何内容无关，有人试图在舞蹈比赛的高潮处射杀某个身份不明的政治人物。
And then later in a moment of obligatory foreshadowing, our couple talks about whether Castro would ever kick out Americans from Cuba.
然后，在必要的铺垫时刻，我们夫妇谈论了卡斯特罗是否会将美国人赶出古巴。
I'm just saying that-- Katey Miller What?
我只是说——凯蒂·米勒 什么？
that I might have to leave?
我可能不得不离开？
Could happen.
有可能发生。
Katey Miller But they wouldn't do that.
凯蒂·米勒但他们不会那样做。
Not if the whole idea is to give people their freedom.
如果整个想法是给予人们自由，那就不会了。
Can I ask you what it was like for you to watch the film?
我能问一下您观看这部电影的感受如何吗？
For you to sit in a theater and watch the film?
让你坐在电影院里看电影吗？
It was fine.
很好。
It was really fine.
真的很好。
Because--
因为——
Oh, honey.
哦，亲爱的。
Peter Sagal No, no, no. I mean this.
彼得·萨格尔 不，不，不。我的意思是这个。
Let me put it this way.
让我这样说吧。
Before I got that call, this experience had been a failure.
在我接到那个电话之前，这次经历是失败的。
I mean, I remember at that time just lying in bed, going, well, I had my shot and I blew it.
我的意思是，我记得当时只是躺在床上，心想，好吧，我有我的机会，但我失败了。
All I ever wanted was a shot.
我所想要的只是一个镜头。
I got my shot and it failed.
我成功了，但失败了。
I did a bad job.
我做得很糟糕。
And so then when I got the phone call, it's like, oh, it's going to be made, and it's going to be Dirty Dancing 2.
所以当我接到电话时，我就想，哦，这部电影要拍了，而且是《辣身舞 2》。
That's a happy ending.
这是一个幸福的结局。
That's a much better ending than the ending I thought I had, which was that it was just a disaster.
这比我想象的结局要好得多，我以为这只是一场灾难。
Act Four.
第四幕。
Bill Clinton's 7-Year-Old Brother.
比尔·克林顿7岁的弟弟。
Reporter Mary Wiltenburg is in the middle of this yearlong series that she's writing for The Christian Science Monitor about two boys, brothers who were born in a Tanzanian refugee camp and then resettled in Georgia two and a half years ago.
记者玛丽·威尔滕伯格正在为《基督教科学箴言报》撰写为期一年的系列文章，该系列文章讲述了两个男孩，兄弟俩出生在坦桑尼亚难民营，两年半前重新定居在格鲁吉亚。
Many of her stories are focused on the older brother, nine-year-old Bill Clinton Hadam.
她的许多故事都集中在九岁的哥哥比尔·克林顿·哈达姆身上。
His dad is a big fan of the former president.
他的父亲是前总统的忠实粉丝。
After a tough first year in the United States, Bill seems to have settled in now, but his little brother Igey is still struggling to understand his own origin story to get his seven-year-old brain around who he is and where he came from.
在美国度过了艰难的第一年之后，比尔现在似乎已经安顿下来，但他的弟弟伊吉仍在努力理解自己的起源故事，让他七岁的大脑了解他是谁以及他来自哪里。
At this point, Mary has spent so much time with these two boys that she is more than a reporter.
此时，玛丽已经和这两个男孩一起度过了很多时间，以至于她不仅仅是一名记者。
She's like a member of the family.
她就像家庭的一员。
Here's Mary.
这是玛丽。
Igey calls me on the phone almost every day.
Igey 几乎每天都给我打电话。
Sometimes he leaves messages.
有时他会留言。
First unheard message.
第一条闻所未闻的消息。
Igey Hello, Mary.
伊盖 你好，玛丽。
This is me, Igey, and [UNINTELLIGIBLE] says Bill is going to summer school and I'm not going to summer school.
这是我，Igey，[无法辨认]说比尔要去参加暑期学校，而我不去参加暑期学校。
OK, this is me, Igey.
好吧，这就是我，伊吉。
OK, bye!
好的，再见！
In between the messages, we have long chats.
在消息之间，我们进行了长时间的交谈。
I tape most of our conversations because I'm writing these articles about him and his family.
我录下了我们的大部分谈话，因为我正在写这些关于他和他的家人的文章。
And the conversations always seem to start with one of two questions: When can I come to your house?
谈话似乎总是以两个问题之一开始：我什么时候可以去你家？
Or when are you coming to my house?
或者你什么时候来我家？
Oh, I'm going to be there soon.
哦，我很快就会到那里。
I'm in the car right now, driving to you, and there's a little bit of traffic.
我现在在车里，正开车去你那里，路上有点堵车。
You're driving now?
你现在开车吗？
Mary Wiltenburg I'm driving right now.
玛丽·威尔滕伯格 我现在正在开车。
You're coming to take us, though, right?
不过你会来接我们的，对吗？
I am, yes.
我是，是的。
So you know I'm crazy about this kid.
所以你知道我对这个孩子很着迷。
He's sweet, nosy, funny.
他很可爱、爱管闲事、很有趣。
He's been to my house a bunch since I started doing these stories.
自从我开始写这些故事以来，他经常来我家。
But the first time he came over, six months ago, he announced to me and my husband and his brother Bill Clinton that from now on, the first grader, formerly known as Igey, would be going by his middle name: John.
但六个月前，他第一次过来时，他向我、我的丈夫和他的兄弟比尔·克林顿宣布，从现在开始，一年级学生（以前叫伊吉）将使用他的中间名：约翰。
I'd already known something was up, because that afternoon my husband took Igey to the park.
我已经知道出事了，因为那天下午我丈夫带伊吉去公园。
Igey was up on the jungle gym when a girl about the same age called over from the swing set and asked his name, and he got all weird and wouldn't answer her.
当伊吉在攀登架上时，一个与他年龄相仿的女孩从秋千上打电话过来，问他的名字，他变得很奇怪，没有回答她。
She thought he hadn't heard her, so she hopped off the swing, came over to the jungle gym, and asked him again, What's your name?
她以为他没有听到她的声音，于是她跳下秋千，来到攀登架，又问他，你叫什么名字？
Igey got this kind of cornered look and said, I don't know my name.
Igey 表情一脸茫然，说道：“我不知道我的名字。”
But by later that night, he seemed to have made a decision.
但到了那天晚上，他似乎已经做出了决定。
He was now John.
他现在是约翰。
In our living room, he struggled to type his new name into a video game.
在我们的客厅里，他努力在电子游戏中输入他的新名字。
J- O- wait, was it J?
J-O-等等，是 J 吗？
Or G?
还是G？
Then Bill offered to help.
然后比尔主动提出提供帮助。
Igey said, I know how to spell my own name.
Igey说，我知道怎么拼写我自己的名字。
Igey picked up English first and best of anyone in his family.
伊吉首先学会了英语，也是他家里人中学得最好的。
But his teachers say Igey's more confused about where he's from and who he is than other seven-year-olds they've seen.
但他的老师说，与他们见过的其他七岁孩子相比，伊吉更不知道自己来自哪里、自己是谁。
And the charter school Igey and Bill attend is about half refugees, so you think they'd see a lot of this.
伊吉和比尔就读的特许学校大约有一半是难民，所以你认为他们会看到很多这样的人。
Teachers say no. Little kids usually realize pretty fast that most people who ask where are you from, they don't want the whole story.
老师们说不。小孩子通常很快就会意识到，大多数问你来自哪里的人，他们并不想要整个故事。
And it doesn't really matter if you say you're from Burma, where your parents were from, or Thailand, where you lived in a camp.
如果你说你来自缅甸（你的父母来自那里），或者来自泰国（你住在那里的一个营地），这并不重要。
In first grade, you just pick one and get on with your day.
在一年级，你只需选择一个并继续你的一天。
But for Igey, where are you from has never felt that simple.
但对于 Igey 来说，你来自哪里从来没有这么简单过。
All winter he seemed to be revising his story.
整个冬天他似乎都在修改他的故事。
First he denied the camp he'd lived in his whole life, hated the word "refugee." Then he started saying he wasn't from Congo, his nationality, or Tanzania, where he was born, or Africa at all.
首先，他否认自己生活了一辈子的难民营，讨厌“难民”这个词。然后他开始说他不是来自刚果（他的国籍），也不是他的出生地坦桑尼亚，或者根本不是非洲。
He'd say, I'm from here, or, America.
他会说，我来自这里，或者，美国。
Watching TV, he'd point to rich, white kids and say, That's me.
看电视时，他会指着富有的白人孩子说，那就是我。
At home, he threw tantrums.
在家里，他就发脾气。
At school, he sometimes seemed almost catatonic.
在学校里，他有时显得近乎紧张症。
He wouldn't answer questions, wouldn't meet people's eyes.
他不回答问题，不看别人的眼睛。
His parents, his teachers, everyone felt helpless.
他的父母，他的老师，每个人都感到无助。
They didn't know what set him off or how to reach him.
他们不知道是什么让他离开，也不知道如何联系他。
And he seemed to regress.
他似乎退步了。
If you were sitting on the couch, he'd snuggle up or take my hand.
如果你坐在沙发上，他会依偎着我或握住我的手。
The slightest things made him cry.
最轻微的事情都会让他哭泣。
He seemed lost.
他似乎迷失了方向。
One night on the phone, I reminded him where he was born: in Tanzania.
一天晚上，我在电话里提醒他他出生在哪里：坦桑尼亚。
I'm from Tanzania?, he said.
我来自坦桑尼亚？”他说。
I'm from Tanzania?
我来自坦桑尼亚？
Mary Wiltenburg Uh-huh.
玛丽·威尔滕伯格 嗯。
I am?
我是？
Mary Wiltenburg Well, that's where you were born.
玛丽·威尔滕伯格 嗯，那是你出生的地方。
Yeah, but where am I from?
是啊，但是我从哪里来？
Mary Wiltenburg Well, you were born in Tanzania.
玛丽·威尔滕伯格 好吧，你出生在坦桑尼亚。
And your dad came from Congo.
你爸爸来自刚果。
He did?
他做到了？
Mary Wiltenburg And your mom came from Rwanda.
玛丽·威尔滕伯格 你的妈妈来自卢旺达。
So your family has a lot of places where you're from.
所以你的家人有很多你来自的地方。
Igey's parents didn't mind calling him John.
伊吉的父母不介意叫他约翰。
They were just kind of puzzled.
他们只是有点困惑。
The idea that you could hate your name seemed like one more baffling thing about America.
对于美国来说，你可能会讨厌自己的名字，这似乎是一件更令人困惑的事情。
They just had no idea what Igey was going through, and it made Igey feel more distant from them.
他们只是不知道Igey正在经历什么，这让Igey感觉与他们更加疏远。
A while back, I was riding with Igey and his parents in their car when he said to me, I don't want to live with my mom.
不久前，我和 Igey 以及他的父母一起骑车，当时他对我说，我不想和妈妈住在一起。
I thought it was a setup for one of his jokes, so I said, You don't want to live with your mom?
我以为这是他的一个笑话，所以我说，你不想和你妈妈住在一起吗？
Why?
为什么？
He said, I want to live with you.
他说，我想和你住在一起。
I said, No, you don't want to live with me.
我说，不，你不想和我住在一起。
But then Igey got all serious and said, But what if I forget my language?
但随后 Igey 变得严肃起来，说道：“但是如果我忘记了我的语言怎么办？”
I said, What do you mean?
我说，你什么意思？
And he said, If I forget my language, I can't live with them, because they won't understand me.
他说，如果我忘记了我的语言，我就无法和他们一起生活，因为他们不会理解我。
Later on the phone, we talked about what it's like for him talking with his mom.
后来在电话里，我们谈论了他和他妈妈说话的感觉。
When you speak English, does she understand you?
当你说英语时，她听得懂吗？
No. Mary Wiltenburg So maybe you're learning faster, huh?
不。 Mary Wiltenburg 那么也许你学得更快了，是吧？
I just forget it right now.
我现在就忘记了。
Mary Wiltenburg Swahili?
玛丽·威尔滕伯格·斯瓦希里语？
Yes.
是的。
Mary Wiltenburg Like what do you forget?
玛丽·威尔滕伯格 你忘记了什么？
Everything.
一切。
Mary Wiltenburg And then at some point this spring, Igey just went back to being Igey.
玛丽·威尔滕伯格 然后在今年春天的某个时候，伊吉又变回了伊吉。
A lot of things happened for him at once.
他一下子发生了很多事情。
His green card arrived.
他的绿卡到了。
His reading took off.
他的阅读量开始腾飞。
It took me a while to notice that John had vanished.
过了一会儿我才注意到约翰已经消失了。
His teachers don't remember either exactly when he stopped correcting them.
他的老师们也不记得他什么时候停止纠正他们的。
But by the last month of school, he was taking his turn in the semicircle with everyone else.
但到了学校的最后一个月，他就和其他人一起绕着半圆转了。
No drama, just my name is Igey and I'm from Congo.
没什么戏剧性的，只是我的名字是 Igey，我来自刚果。
And suddenly, he was volunteering details about his life in the camp: games he played, his mud brick house.
突然间，他自愿讲述了他在营地的生活细节：他玩的游戏，他的泥砖房。
Igey seemed to be making peace with his past and his name, and he moved on to other burning seven-year-old questions.
伊吉似乎正在接受他的过去和他的名字，并转向其他七年前的紧迫问题。
What's bingo nights mean?
宾果之夜是什么意思？
Mary Wiltenburg You know how you play bingo at school?
玛丽·威尔滕伯格 你知道在学校怎么玩宾果游戏吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Mary Wiltenburg It's like a night when a bunch of adults get together, maybe kids, too, and they play a game that's like that, only with numbers instead of words.
玛丽·威尔滕伯格：这就像一个晚上，一群成年人聚在一起，也许还有孩子，他们玩一个类似的游戏，只是用数字而不是文字。
OK, I'm ready for you.
好的，我已经为你准备好了。
Mary Wiltenburg Oh, OK.
玛丽·威尔滕伯格 噢，好的。
I'll see you soon.
我很快就会见到你。
And just when it seemed like Igey had finally accepted his own name, the other shoe dropped.
就在伊吉似乎终于接受了自己的名字时，另一只鞋掉了下来。
The last week of school, Igey asked me, um, what does gay mean?
在学校的最后一周，伊吉问我，嗯，同性恋是什么意思？
I told him gay can mean happy, or it can mean when a man loves another man.
我告诉他同性恋可以意味着快乐，也可以意味着一个男人爱另一个男人。
Igey started sobbing.
伊吉开始抽泣。
We were in his kitchen, and he just collapsed against the fridge.
我们在他的厨房里，他就倒在冰箱上。
Finally, he choked out what was wrong, and it turned out that some second graders had been taunting him: Igey, you're gay.
最后他哽咽出了什么问题，原来是一些二年级的同学一直在嘲笑他：Igey，你是gay。
And he told them, that's not a word.
他告诉他们，这不是一个词。
It's just one more strike against that name.
这只是对这个名字的又一次打击。
But for now, John hasn't reappeared.
但现在，约翰还没有再次出现。
Igey's sticking with Igey.
Igey 和 Igey 在一起。
The other day, when we were riding in the car, I said some offhand thing about needing to call my mom.
有一天，当我们坐车时，我随口说了一些话，说需要给妈妈打电话。
Igey said, You have a mom?
Igey说，你有妈妈吗？
I said, Yeah, of course.
我说，是的，当然。
He could not believe it.
他简直不敢相信。
How had he not known about this before?
他以前怎么不知道这件事？
This year, it's been hard enough for Igey to put together his own story.
今年，伊吉要整理自己的故事已经够困难的了。
The idea that I-- wait, everybody comes from somewhere?
我的想法是——等等，每个人都来自某个地方？
It kinda blew his mind.
这有点让他大吃一惊。
Mary Wiltenburg of The Christian Science Monitor .
《基督教科学箴言报》的玛丽·威尔滕伯格。
She's working on a book about Igey, Bill Clinton and their family.
她正在写一本关于伊吉、比尔·克林顿及其家人的书。
Our program was produced today by Lisa Pollak and myself with Alex Blumberg, Sean Cole, Jane Feltes, Sarah Koenig, Alissa Shipp and Nancy Updike.
今天我们的节目由 Lisa Pollak 和我本人以及 Alex Blumberg、Sean Cole、Jane Feltes、Sarah Koenig、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 制作。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Our production help Randy Dixon.
我们的制作帮助兰迪·迪克森。
Seth Lind is our production manager.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的生产经理。
Music help from Jessica Hopper.
杰西卡·霍珀的音乐帮助。
Thanks today to Bob Folkenflik, Matt Holtzman and Hank Rosenfeld.
今天感谢 Bob Folkenflik、Matt Holtzman 和 Hank Rosenfeld。
Pino Audia's research paper about garages and entrepreneurs that I talked about at the beginning of the show was done with Christopher Rider.
我在节目开始时谈到的皮诺·奥迪亚（Pino Audia）关于车库和企业家的研究论文是与克里斯托弗·赖德（Christopher Rider）合作完成的。
Dan Heath, who we also talked to at the top of the show is the co-author of the book Made to Stick: Why Some Ideas Survive and Others Die.
丹·希思 (Dan Heath) 是《Made to Stick: Why Some Ideas Survived and Others Die》一书的合著者，我们也在节目顶部采访了他。
Barry Siegel's book from Act Two of our show is just out in paperback.
我们节目第二幕中巴里·西格尔的书刚刚出版了平装本。
Claim of Privilege is what it's called.
所谓特权主张。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International WBEZ.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台 WBEZ 发行。
Management oversight for a program by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia, who hears himself quoted in these credits every single week and says, "I never said that.
我们的老板托里·马拉蒂亚 (Torey Malatia) 先生对一个项目进行了管理监督，他每周都会听到这些片尾字幕中引用自己的话，他说：“我从来没有这么说过。
I would never say that."
我永远不会这么说。”
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。