381: Turncoat - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #381 | May 22, 2009 381: Turncoat Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 381 集 | 2009 年 5 月 22 日 381：叛徒 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass When Madison Nguyen was elected to the San Jose City Council, she was just 30 and was a really big deal.
序言 Ira Glass 当麦迪逊·阮 (Madison Nguyen) 当选圣何塞市议会议员时，她年仅 30 岁，确实是一件大事。
There is a huge Vietnamese community in San Jose, but no Vietnamese had ever made it to the city council.
圣何塞有一个巨大的越南人社区，但没有越南人进入过市议会。
The Vietnamese-American community was just beside themselves with having the very first Vietnamese-American elected official there.
越南裔美国人社区欣喜若狂，那里出现了第一位越南裔美国民选官员。
My Thuan Tran is the reporter who covers California's Vietnamese communities for the Los Angeles Times.
My Thuan Tran 是《洛杉矶时报》报道加州越南社区的记者。
They really saw her as the beloved daughter, as a golden child.
他们真的把她当成宠儿，当成金童。
There was a lot of celebrations.
有很多庆祝活动。
And she won and her face was all over different magazines.
她赢了，她的脸出现在不同的杂志上。
She was interviewed by all the Vietnamese press.
她接受了所有越南媒体的采访。
People were following her every move.
人们都在关注着她的一举一动。
They wanted to know what she was up to.
他们想知道她在做什么。
But within two years, mainly because of one issue.
但两年之内，主要是因为一个问题。
One issue.
一个问题。
Lots of people were furious with Madison Nguyen.
很多人对麦迪逊·阮感到愤怒。
People started protesting in front of City Hall every single Tuesday.
每个星期二，人们开始在市政厅前抗议。
And they would hold banners that had a slash across her face.
他们会举着她脸上有一道斜线的横幅。
They wrote Madison Nguyen is a traitor.
他们写道麦迪逊·阮是叛徒。
There was one protest that drew thousands of people, not only from San Jose but from the neighboring cities in the Bay Area, and also people who came from as far as Orange County or Houston.
有一场抗议活动吸引了数千人，不仅来自圣何塞，还来自湾区邻近城市，甚至还有来自奥兰治县或休斯顿的人们。
Yes, there was.
是的，有。
He was camped out in a tent for 29 days in front of City Hall and he was flanked by a lot of his supporters.
他在市政厅前的帐篷里扎营了 29 天，周围有很多支持者。
And the main issue that turned so many people against Madison Nguyen?
导致这么多人反对麦迪逊·阮的主要问题是什么？
That eventually led to a special recall election for the golden child?
这最终导致了金童的特别罢免选举？
Well, there's a area of San Jose just a couple blocks long on Story Road, with lots of Vietnamese stores, and restaurants, and businesses.
嗯，圣何塞的故事路 (Story Road) 上有一个只有几个街区长的区域，那里有很多越南商店、餐馆和企业。
And one of the first things that Madison Nguyen did on the City Council was convince her colleagues they should do to economic development there, and designate that area with a special name.
麦迪逊·阮 (Madison Nguyen) 在市议会做的第一件事就是说服她的同事们应该为当地的经济发展做点什么，并为该地区指定一个特殊的名称。
Several possible names were discussed.
讨论了几个可能的名称。
Most Vietnamese Americans who cared enough to come out to those meetings preferred Little Saigon, but Madison Nguyen chose the name Saigon Business District.
大多数关心参加这些会议的越南裔美国人更喜欢小西贡，但麦迪逊·阮选择了西贡商业区这个名字。
That's it.
就是这样。
That's the whole controversy.
这就是整个争论的焦点。
Little Saigon versus Saigon Business District.
小西贡与西贡商业区。
I think the issue, it's a very subtle one.
我认为这个问题是一个非常微妙的问题。
And I guess for a lot of non-Vietnamese, it was very difficult for them to understand, because they felt what's the difference?
我想对于很多非越南人来说，他们很难理解，因为他们觉得有什么不同？
It's just Little Saigon versus Saigon Business District, but for many Vietnamese refugees, it just invoked everything that they had lived through in their lives.
这只是小西贡与西贡商业区的对比，但对于许多越南难民来说，它只是唤起了他们一生中经历过的一切。
Of Vietnam and coming over here.
越南的，来这里。
Specifically, the name Little Saigon had taken on huge significance.
具体来说，“小西贡”这个名字具有巨大的意义。
That's what some other Vietnamese exile communities like this big one that is down in Orange County had called themselves, partly as a political statement.
这就是其他一些越南流亡社区（例如奥兰治县的这个大型社区）对自己的称呼，部分是作为一种政治声明。
These communities, you got to remember, were full of people who had fought the Communists during the Vietnam War and then fled the Communists after the war.
你必须记住，这些社区里挤满了在越南战争期间与共产党作战，然后在战后逃离共产党的人。
The name Little Saigon was seen as an act of defiance against people who had taken over the city of Saigon and renamed it.
小西贡这个名字被视为对占领西贡市并重新命名的人们的蔑视行为。
Renamed it, actually, after the founder of the Vietnamese Communist Party-- Ho Chi Minh City.
实际上，是以越南共产党的创始人胡志明市的名字重新命名的。
The name that she did not choose, the name Little Saigon had just become such a symbol for them.
这个名字不是她选的，小西贡这个名字只是成为了他们的象征。
It became a symbol for them of why they fled Vietnam, of why they fought for South Vietnam, of what hardships and pain that their family went through.
它成为他们为何逃离越南、为何为南越而战、以及他们的家人经历过的艰辛和痛苦的象征。
And when she didn't choose that name, they felt like she wasn't listening to their stories, or to their history.
当她没有选择这个名字时，他们觉得她没有在听他们的故事，或者他们的历史。
Anything that wasn't Little Saigon, it's just seen as an insult.
任何不是小西贡的东西都会被视为一种侮辱。
Me, on a personal level, I like the name Vietnam Town.
就我个人而言，我喜欢越南城这个名字。
Because we have Chinatown, we have Japantown, but obviously I guess what I liked didn't really matter.
因为我们有唐人街，有日本城，但显然我想我喜欢什么并不重要。
This is Councilwoman Madison Nguyen.
我是女议员麦迪逊·阮。
The San Jose politician at the center of all this controversy.
圣何塞政客处于所有这些争议的中心。
She says that although a vocal portion of her Vietnamese constituents definitely preferred Little Saigon, Vietnamese-Americans only make up a third of her district.
她说，尽管越南选民中有很大一部分人肯定更喜欢小西贡，但越南裔美国人只占她选区的三分之一。
Non-Vietnamese people and businesses in the district wanted other names.
该地区的非越南人和企业想要其他名字。
And she thought it would be better to avoid a name that was so political.
她认为最好避免使用如此政治化的名字。
So she chose what she thought was a compromise.
所以她选择了她认为是妥协的方案。
And so I thought, OK, well both names have the name Saigon in it, and this is a business district designation.
所以我想，好吧，两个名字中都有西贡这个名字，这是一个商业区的名称。
Why don't we just called it Saigon Business District and hopefully that will make everyone happy.
我们为什么不直接将其称为西贡商业区，希望这会让每个人都高兴。
I want to play you a recording from this six and a half hour City Council meeting about this.
我想向您播放有关此问题的六个半小时市议会会议的录音。
And it's many people standing up, saying that they don't want this name.
而很多人站出来表示，他们不想要这个名字。
And here's one man and-- there's a point in the tape where he says if Madison wins, what he means is if you get your way and the community is not called Little Saigon.
录音带中有一个地方，他说如果麦迪逊获胜，他的意思是，如果你如愿以偿，而且这个社区不叫小西贡。
Here let me play this for you.
在这里，让我为您播放这个。
[AUDIO PLAYBACK] -Before 1975, I was Ranger Commander in Vietnam.
[音频回放] - 1975 年之前，我是越南的游骑兵指挥官。
I was in jail nine year.
我在监狱里呆了九年。
Tonight I come here to request only one vote from you for Little Saigon.
今晚我来这里只是请求你们为小西贡投一票。
I strongly support you from the beginning.
我从一开始就强烈支持你。
But if Madison win, we stay away from her, because she's pro-Communist.
但如果麦迪逊获胜，我们就会远离她，因为她是亲共产党的。
Thank you.
谢谢。
[END AUDIO PLAYBACK] What's your reaction to that kind of thing?
[音频播放结束] 您对这种事情有何反应？
It was torture to have all these people, who are pretty much at the age of my parents or grandparents, coming up and looking you, staring you in the face, in your eyes and said we no longer trust you.
让所有这些人，他们的年龄与我的父母或祖父母差不多，来看着你，盯着你的脸，看着你的眼睛，说我们不再信任你，这是一种折磨。
You're not one of us.
你不是我们中的一员。
We regret that we ever supported you.
我们很遗憾曾经支持过你。
To hear that over, and over, and over, and over again.
一遍又一遍地听到这句话。
I mean it's painful.
我的意思是这很痛苦。
Then there's the fact that she was being called a Communist, widely.
事实上，她被广泛地称为共产主义者。
The first time I heard it, I was very hurt.
第一次听到的时候，我很受伤。
I felt that-- I came here as a boat child back in the late 1970s.
我感觉到——我在 20 世纪 70 年代末作为一个船童来到这里。
I escaped Communism in Vietnam and I came here.
我逃离了越南的共产主义，来到了这里。
We pretty much risked our lives to come to this great country.
我们冒着生命危险来到这个伟大的国家。
And to have this particular group of people in the Vietnamese community label me as a Communist sympathizer, I thought was really beyond absurd.
让越南社区中的这一群人给我贴上共产主义同情者的标签，我认为这实在是太荒谬了。
Madison is convinced that if she had been a non-Vietnamese City Councilperson suggesting the exact same name, Saigon Business District, it never would have gone this far.
麦迪逊确信，如果她是一位非越南市议员，建议使用完全相同的名称“西贡商业区”，那么它永远不会走得这么远。
No protest.
没有抗议。
Nobody would have been labeled a Communist.
没有人会被贴上共产党员的标签。
People felt betrayed, she says, because she was one of them.
她说，人们感到被背叛了，因为她是他们中的一员。
They expected her to do what they wanted.
他们期望她做他们想做的事。
And they couldn't believe it when she didn't.
当她不这样做时，他们简直不敢相信。
To them, she was a turn coat.
对他们来说，她是一个背叛者。
What strikes deeper than that?
还有什么比这更深刻的呢？
Well today on our show, we have two other stories of turncoats.
今天在我们的节目中，我们还有另外两个叛徒的故事。
It's This American Life from WBEZ in Chicago distributed by Public Radio International.
《这就是美国生活》，来自芝加哥 WBEZ，由国际公共广播电台发行。
We'll get to those in a bit.
我们稍后会讨论这些内容。
In Madison Nguyen's case, things are ugly.
在麦迪逊·阮的例子中，事情很丑陋。
Things happened pretty fast.
事情发生得很快。
If you listen to Vietnamese radio during that time period, a lot of people would come out and say they believe she was a Communist.
如果你在那段时间听越南广播，很多人都会出来说他们相信她是共产党员。
I just felt that it was a really interesting case because it kind of showed the challenges of being a Vietnamese-American politician.
我只是觉得这是一个非常有趣的案例，因为它展示了作为一名越南裔美国政治家所面临的挑战。
That you kind of had to navigate among all these lingering emotions from this war that had ended 34 years ago.
你必须在 34 年前结束的这场战争的所有这些挥之不去的情绪中导航。
Yeah, you wrote, "The rules of politics are different for a Vietnamese-American politician.
是的，你写道：“对于越南裔美国政客来说，政治规则是不同的。
Even business owners, reporters, and pop singers carefully tiptoe around inferences and innuendo that can cast a person as being soft on Communism.
即使是企业主、记者和流行歌手也会小心翼翼地回避可能会让人认为对共产主义态度软弱的推论和暗示。
A misstep can launch vocal protests and accusations.
失误可能会引发强烈抗议和指责。
Reputations can be tarnished.
声誉可能会受到损害。
People must bow to the pressure."
人们必须屈服于压力。”
Right.
正确的。
I think it's a surprise for many people who are kind of unfamiliar with the Vietnamese-American community how much this name-calling and suspicion still resonates.
我认为，对于许多不熟悉越南裔美国人社区的人来说，这种谩骂和怀疑仍然能引起如此大的共鸣是令人惊讶的。
I think some people feel like it looks like out of the McCarthy era when they view the Vietnamese-American community.
我认为有些人在看待越南裔美国人社区时感觉它看起来像是脱离了麦卡锡时代。
There are tons of examples of this kind of red-baiting.
这种红色诱饵的例子有很多。
The first Vietnamese Superintendent of Schools in the Westminster School District in Orange County was removed a week after she was appointed, she says, because an activist lobbied school board members, saying she was a Communist.
她说，奥兰治县威斯敏斯特学区的第一位越南学监在任命一周后就被免职，因为一名活动人士游说学校董事会成员，称她是共产党员。
In Saint Paul, Minnesota, when a Catholic bishop visited from Vietnam, he asked that not be photograph with anything political.
在明尼苏达州圣保罗，当一位天主教主教从越南来访时，他要求不要拍摄任何带有政治色彩的照片。
So his Vietnamese- American host in Minnesota, a man named Tuan Pham, took down the flag of the old country of South Vietnam which was in many exile communities.
因此，他在明尼苏达州的越南裔美国东道主范端（Tuan Pham）取下了许多流亡社区中南越故国的国旗。
Tuan Pham was vilified as a pro-Communist because of that.
范端因此被污蔑为亲共分子。
Protests at his store were so intense that customers stopped coming.
他的商店里的抗议活动非常激烈，以至于顾客不再来了。
His business went bankrupt.
他的生意破产了。
Tuan Pham not only battled the Communists as a soldier during the war, but was held in one of their prison camps for two years.
Tuan Pham 不仅在战争期间作为一名士兵与共产党作战，而且还被关押在他们的一个战俘营里两年。
There's another interesting example I wanted to bring up.
我想提出另一个有趣的例子。
There was a Vietnamese-American pop singer named Tommy Ngo.
有一位越南裔美国流行歌手，名叫汤米·吴（Tommy Ngo）。
And in one of the posters for a concert, he's wearing a belt with the word L-O-V-E on it.
在一张音乐会海报中，他系着一条写有 L-O-V-E 字样的腰带。
And the O has a star in it.
O 中有一颗星星。
And the word "LOVE" is in red and the star is white, but on the poster it kind of looked like the star was yellow.
“LOVE”这个词是红色的，星星是白色的，但在海报上看起来星星是黄色的。
And a yellow star on a red background is actually the symbol of the official Vietnamese flag, which is known as the Communist flag.
红底黄星实际上是越南官方国旗的象征，即共产主义旗帜。
So, even that concert was protested against, and Tommy Ngo was protested against.
所以，连那场演唱会都被抗议了，Tommy Ngo也被抗议了。
And a lot of people didn't end up going to the concert.
而且很多人最终没有去听音乐会。
Even one of the contributors to our radio show, Thanh Tan, who is a reporter from Boise Public Television, has watched as her dad, who runs a Vietnamese community organization in Olympia, Washington, has been red-baited.
就连我们广播节目的撰稿人之一、来自博伊西公共电视台的记者 Thanh Tan，也看到她的父亲在华盛顿奥林匹亚经营着一个越南社区组织，也遭到了红色诱饵。
It's particularly galling to her, she says, because she spent her childhood resenting how much time her dad spent at anti-Communist demonstrations.
她说，这对她来说尤其令人恼火，因为她在童年时期就对父亲花太多时间参加反共示威感到不满。
It's just really upsetting to hear these accusations against somebody who-- his idea of fun with the family was to take us to a protest in Seattle, and to wave around the old nationalist flag, the yellow flag with the three stripes.
听到这些针对某人的指控真是令人沮丧，他与家人一起玩耍的想法是带我们去西雅图参加抗议活动，并挥舞旧的民族主义旗帜，即带有三条纹的黄色旗帜。
Yeah.
是的。
Like, I grew up on that.
就像，我就是这样长大的。
I have pictures of me when I was like, six years old, holding a sign that says Ho Chi Minh is a criminal.
我有我六岁时的照片，手里拿着一块牌子，上面写着胡志明是罪犯。
Thanh's dad has now won a defamation against the activists who called him a Communist sympathizer.
清的父亲现在赢得了对那些称他为共产主义同情者的活动人士的诽谤。
The Thurston County Court awarded him and his organization $310,000.
瑟斯顿县法院判给他和他的组织 31 万美元。
But Thanh says that the stress of all this has hurt her parents' marriage and her dad's health.
但坦说，所有这些压力已经损害了她父母的婚姻和她父亲的健康。
And somehow her family doesn't feel a sense of victory after all this.
不知何故，她的家人在这一切之后并没有感到胜利的感觉。
You know, I don't just because like right after the trial, like within a week, I saw a television, like a Vietnamese television report where the defendants were interviewed.
你知道，我不只是因为审判结束后一周之内，我看到了电视，比如越南电视报道，其中采访了被告。
And the main guy, he said that my dad-- he said something along the lines of Communists don't wear their badge on their chest.
主要人物，他说我爸爸——他说了一些类似共产党人不会在胸前佩戴徽章的言论。
And to me that just said going through this whole trial, three week trial was not enough to prove to him that my dad apparently is not a Communist.
对我来说，刚刚说经历整个审判，三周的审判不足以向他证明我的父亲显然不是共产党员。
And that really was pretty upsetting.
这真的很令人沮丧。
I mean my mother, she calls me, and she just said Thanh, what do we do?
我是说我妈妈，她打电话给我，她只是说Thanh，我们该怎么办？
Like, what we do?
比如，我们做什么？
Like, the Vietnamese media is still reporting that your dad could be a Communist.
比如，越南媒体仍在报道你的父亲可能是共产党员。
Like, I don't know what to do.
就像，我不知道该怎么办。
I understand that there's a Vietnamese phrase for red-baiting that's used here in the States.
据我所知，在美国，有一个越南语短语用于表示红色诱饵。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
It's called "chup mu."
叫做“chup mu”。
It literally means to put the Communist hat on someone.
它的字面意思是给某人戴上共产党的帽子。
The City Councilwoman in San Jose, Madison Nguyen, faced a recall election and she won.
圣何塞市女议员麦迪逊·阮 (Madison Nguyen) 面临罢免选举，她获胜。
Mainly, she's just tired of the red-baiting.
主要是，她只是厌倦了红色诱饵。
At the height of all the protests she wondered, is this why we came to this country?
在所有抗议活动最激烈的时候，她想知道，这就是我们来到这个国家的原因吗？
So we could fight over who's a Communist?
那么我们可以争论谁是共产党吗？
Even now, which is really sad, but I'll share with you anyways.
即使现在，这真的很悲伤，但无论如何我都会与你分享。
My in-laws, they're still living in Vietnam right now, and I was recently married.
我的姻亲，他们现在还住在越南，而我最近才结婚。
And my father-in-law had a stroke about two months ago.
我的岳父大约两个月前中风了。
And so, I wanted to have the opportunity to go back.
所以，我想有机会回去。
But I can't, because I know that if I go back now, imagine what's going to happen when I come back here to San Jose.
但我不能，因为我知道如果我现在回去，想象一下当我回到圣何塞时会发生什么。
You can't say you're visiting a relative?
你总不能说你是去拜访亲戚吧？
Yeah, good luck.
是的，祝你好运。
Ira Glass Why?
艾拉·格拉斯 为什么？
What will they say?
他们会说什么？
I mean, I really-- and when I tell people, I tell my friends that, they're like, there's no way you can go because if you go, the first thing that's going to happen when you come back is that, oh look!
我的意思是，我真的——当我告诉人们，我告诉我的朋友们，他们就像，你不可能走，因为如果你走了，当你回来时会发生的第一件事就是，哦，看！
She's going back there.
她要回到那里。
She's probably trying to connect with the Vietnamese government, or get in some kind of relationship.
她可能正在尝试与越南政府建立联系，或者建立某种关系。
And so it's just-- and so, here I am thinking like, am I ready to put up another fight?
所以，所以，我在这里想，我准备好再打一场了吗？
She says she doesn't want to put her supporters through all that again.
她说她不想让她的支持者再次经历这一切。
So she's careful.
所以她很小心。
But she wants to be in politics, she says.
但她说，她想从政。
With so many people ready to see her as a traitor.
有这么多人准备将她视为叛徒。
And that's just how it's got to be.
事情就是这样的。
On the morning of September 3, 2008, the day Sarah Palin would address the Republican National Convention, a SWAT team broke down the door of a home in downtown Saint Paul.
2008 年 9 月 3 日早上，莎拉·佩林 (Sarah Palin) 将在共和党全国代表大会上发表讲话，特警队破门而入圣保罗市中心一户人家的大门。
Local TV news had this story.
当地电视新闻报道了这个故事。
[AUDIO PLAYBACK] -Two Texas man are now charged with plotting to attack police with molotov cocktails during the Republican National Convention.
[音频回放] - 两名德克萨斯州男子现在被指控密谋在共和党全国代表大会期间用燃烧弹袭击警察。
-Police say David McKay and Bradley Crowder are both associated with the radical Austin Affinity Group.
-警方称大卫·麦凯和布拉德利·克劳德都与激进的奥斯汀亲和组织有联系。
If convicted, McKay and Crowder could face up to 10 years in prison.
如果罪名成立，麦凯和克劳德可能面临最高 10 年的监禁。
[END AUDIO PLAYBACK] Two men who'd been arrested were young, in their early 20s.
[音频回放结束] 两名被捕男子都很年轻，才 20 岁出头。
The RNC was their first big protest.
共和党全国委员会是他们的第一次大规模抗议。
And they'd been nabbed in an elaborate sting operation.
他们是在一场精心策划的诱捕行动中被捕的。
Word spread around the country among activists that there was an informant in their midst.
有消息在活动人士中传遍全国，称他们中间有一名线人。
And it had to be somebody big.
而且一定是个大人物。
But who?
但谁呢？
And why?
为什么？
The rumors started circulating about one guy.
关于一个人的谣言开始流传。
A guy who'd been notorious even before this.
一个在这之前就已经臭名昭著的家伙。
Michael May tells what happened.
迈克尔·梅讲述了发生的事情。
Four months after the Republican National Convention, Brandon Darby posted a letter on Indymedia, a website used by activists worldwide from Chiapas to London to Seattle.
共和党全国代表大会结束四个月后，布兰登·达比（Brandon Darby）在 Indymedia 上发表了一封信，该网站是从恰帕斯州到伦敦再到西雅图等世界各地活动人士使用的网站。
"To all concerned," he wrote.
“致所有相关人员，”他写道。
There are currently allegations in the media that I have worked undercover for the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
目前有媒体指控我为联邦调查局做卧底。
The allegations seemed ludicrous.
这些指控似乎很荒唐。
Everybody knew Brandon Darby hated cops.
每个人都知道布兰登·达比讨厌警察。
He talked openly about overthrowing the US government.
他公开谈论推翻美国政府。
One of his friends, a sort of living legend among anarchists, had posted his own earlier letter on Indymedia saying, "The idea of Brandon working for the FBI was absurd.
他的一位朋友，无政府主义者中的活生生的传奇人物，在 Indymedia 上发表了自己之前的一封信，说道：“布兰登为联邦调查局工作的想法是荒谬的。
It would be the biggest lie of my life since I found out the truth about Santa Claus as a child."
自从我小时候发现圣诞老人的真相以来，这将是我一生中最大的谎言。”
The simple truth is that I have chosen to work with the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
简单的事实是我选择与联邦调查局合作。
Many of you went against my wishes and spoke publicly in defense of me.
你们中的许多人违背了我的意愿并公开为我辩护。
I really did mean it when I said I didn't want to discuss it, and that I didn't want folks addressing the allegations.
当我说我不想讨论它，并且我不希望人们解决这些指控时，我确实是认真的。
I'm looking forward to open dialogue and debate regarding the motivations and experiences I've had, and the ethical questions they pose.
我期待着就我的动机和经历以及它们提出的道德问题进行公开对话和辩论。
What followed wasn't debate and dialogue.
接下来的不是辩论和对话。
It was vitriol.
这是刻薄的。
People were shocked.
人们震惊了。
Brandon Darby was one of the best-known radical activists in the South.
布兰登·达比是南方最著名的激进分子之一。
In Austin, Texas, where he lives, posters with Brandon's face went up on bulletin boards, at coffee shops, and stores around town.
在他居住的得克萨斯州奥斯汀，印有布兰登头像的海报贴在布告栏、咖啡馆和城镇周围的商店里。
The poster said, "BEWARE!
海报上写着：“小心！
BRANDON DARBY, FBI INFORMANT RAT LOOSE IN AUSTIN!" Brandon still has some loyalists in activist community, but for the most part he's hated.
布兰登·达比，联邦调查局线人，在奥斯汀逍遥法外！”布兰登在激进分子社区中仍然有一些忠实拥护者，但大多数人都讨厌他。
I've interviewed probably 20 people who know or worked with Brandon, and their feelings about him now are pretty extreme.
我采访了大约 20 名认识布兰登或与布兰登共事的人，他们现在对他的感觉相当极端。
I first met Brandon two weeks after Hurricane Katrina.
我第一次见到布兰登是在卡特里娜飓风过后两周。
I did a story about him for our local radio station in Austin.
我为奥斯汀当地的广播电台做了一个关于他的故事。
And Brandon had this crazy, true story to tell.
布兰登有一个疯狂的真实故事要讲。
He bought a boat and drove from Austin to New Orleans after the storm to find his friend, a former Black Panther named Robert King Wilkerson, who lived in a flooded neighborhood.
暴风雨过后，他买了一艘船从奥斯汀开车到新奥尔良去寻找他的朋友，前黑豹成员罗伯特·金·威尔克森，他住在一个被洪水淹没的社区。
Brandon couldn't get the boat into the city, so he decided to wade in.
布兰登无法把船开进城里，所以他决定涉水进去。
At the time, he told the story like that was the only reasonable thing to do.
当时，他讲述这个故事时说，这是唯一合理的做法。
I came under an overpass and there are law enforcement officers on the overpass.
我来到立交桥下，立交桥上有执法人员。
And they stopped me and they told me to wait there.
他们拦住了我，让我在那里等。
That I didn't have a reason to be there or right to be there and asked me who I was.
我没有理由在那里或没有权利在那里并问我是谁。
And I told them I was going to get my friend.
我告诉他们我要去接我的朋友。
And they said you can't do that.
他们说你不能这样做。
And I said, well, I don't mean to be rude, but you're on an overpass and I'm down here.
我说，好吧，我无意无礼，但你在立交桥上，而我在这儿。
And so I really don't see how you're going to stop me from getting my friend.
所以我真的不知道你要如何阻止我去找我的朋友。
So Brandon literally swam into the fetid water.
于是布兰登就真的游进了恶臭的水中。
And when he couldn't reach his friend's house on his own, he somehow, while stranded on a fence pole, badgered the Coast Guard into rescuing Wilkerson.
当他无法独自到达朋友家时，他被困在栅栏杆上，不知何故，缠着海岸警卫队营救威尔克森。
The story became famous among activists in New Orleans.
这个故事在新奥尔良的活动人士中广为人知。
And it sums up Brandon pretty well-- a mixture of heroism, recklessness, and arrogance.
这很好地概括了布兰登——英雄主义、鲁莽和傲慢的混合体。
Brandon Darby looks a little like an action hero.
布兰登·达比看起来有点像动作英雄。
Six-foot-plus, stubble, he's got some muscle.
他身高六英尺多，留着胡茬，但有一些肌肉。
Good looking in a rugged movie star sort of way, down to the cleft chin.
看起来像一个粗犷的电影明星，下巴裂开。
And he didn't become a political activist after taking a Marxist theory class.
而且他在上完马克思主义理论课后并没有成为一名政治活动家。
He didn't go to college.
他没有上大学。
He was a smart guy from a crappy Gulf Coast refinery town who spent a lot of his teenage years running away from home.
他是个聪明人，来自墨西哥湾沿岸一个破烂的炼油厂小镇，青少年时期的大部分时间都在离家出走。
He lived on the streets of Houston, and was in and out of group homes and treatment centers.
他住在休斯顿的街道上，进出集体之家和治疗中心。
By the time he hit 20 with an eighth grade education and GED, he learned what he took as the central lesson of his life.
当他 20 岁时，接受了八年级教育并获得了 GED，他学到了他认为人生最重要的课程。
People in power lie and take advantage of people weaker than themselves.
掌权者撒谎，利用比自己弱小的人。
And when he moved to Austin, he discovered radical politics.
当他搬到奥斯汀时，他发现了激进的政治。
He showed up at the Anarchist Bookstore, read up, and started channeling his anger towards the US government.
他出现在无政府主义书店，阅读并开始将他的愤怒发泄到美国政府。
And it all came to a head after Hurricane Katrina.
卡特里娜飓风过后，这一切都达到了紧要关头。
I believed for years that the government was out of control and that it didn't have any concern for the average person.
多年来我一直相信政府已经失控，并且不关心普通人。
And then Katrina happened, and it reinforced it 500%.
然后卡特里娜飓风发生了，它强化了它 500%。
I was very dedicated and sure that it would be a huge error on my part to spend any time trying to work with or change our government.
我非常专注，并确信花时间尝试与我们的政府合作或改变我们的政府将是一个巨大的错误。
And that they just were so rotten to the core, I needed to do something about it.
而且它们已经彻底腐烂了，我需要对此做点什么。
And that maybe I needed to become a revolutionary who believed in overthrowing the state.
也许我需要成为一名相信推翻国家的革命者。
So he moved to New Orleans.
于是他搬到了新奥尔良。
And post-Katrina New Orleans was the perfect place for someone who believed sincerely and literally in the overthrow of the US government.
对于那些真诚地相信美国政府会被推翻的人来说，卡特里娜飓风过后的新奥尔良是一个完美的地方。
A wasteland with no functioning central authority is a paradise for anarchists.
没有中央权威的荒地是无政府主义者的天堂。
It was a chance to prove what Brandon and others already believed.
这是一个证明布兰登和其他人已经相信的事情的机会。
Government sucks.
政府很糟糕。
We can create a better world without it.
没有它我们也可以创造一个更美好的世界。
So he and three other more experienced activists started up a relief organization with $50.00 and named it Common Ground.
于是，他和另外三名更有经验的活动人士用 50 美元成立了一个救援组织，并将其命名为 Common Ground。
[AUDIO PLAYBACK] -In the vast plain of devastation that is the lower ninth ward of New Orleans, there's a little blue house.
[音频回放] - 在新奥尔良第九区的广阔废墟平原上，有一座蓝色的小房子。
It shines in the sun like a wild flower amid the wreckage.
它在阳光下闪闪发光，就像废墟中的一朵野花。
And it was here, at the little blue house on Desland Street that we found something rare in New Orleans.
正是在这里，在德斯兰街的蓝色小房子里，我们发现了新奥尔良罕见的东西。
A real success story.
一个真正的成功故事。
An American success story.
美国的成功故事。
It's called Common Ground.
这就是所谓的共同点。
[END AUDIO PLAYBACK] That's from Nightline.
[音频播放结束] 这是来自 Nightline 的内容。
Common Ground might have been heralded as an American success story and a wild flower by the time the mainstream media found them a year later.
一年后，当主流媒体发现《共同基础》时，它们可能已经被誉为美国的成功故事和野花。
But at the beginning, it was a bunch of outraged radicals.
但一开始，是一群愤怒的激进分子。
Anarchists promising to deliver relief by any means necessary.
无政府主义者承诺以任何必要的方式提供救济。
They were the only relief group here in the upper Ninth Ward.
他们是上九区唯一的救援小组。
Red Cross was handing out food in uptown New Orleans where no damage was happening.
红十字会正在新奥尔良住宅区分发食物，但没有发生任何损坏。
You couldn't find Red Cross down here in the Ninth Ward.
你在第九区找不到红十字会。
To this day, I will not give Red Cross a dollar of my money for that reason.
直到今天，我也不会因为这个原因把我的钱捐给红十字会一美元。
Within weeks after Katrina, Common Ground, with Brandon leading the Ninth Ward effort, became a force.
卡特里娜飓风过后几周内，布兰登领导的“共同点”组织就成为了一股力量。
Providing meals, health care, and help with gutting houses, all for free.
提供膳食、医疗保健以及清理房屋的帮助，全部免费。
They didn't have permits or anything.
他们没有许可证或任何东西。
They just did it, and police did not like it.
他们只是这么做了，但警察不喜欢这样做。
Common Ground was being run out of the house of a former Black Panther name Malik Rahim.
Common Ground 正在从前黑豹成员马利克·拉希姆 (Malik Rahim) 的房子里消失。
And Brandon says it quickly became a target.
布兰登说它很快就成为了目标。
The police would show up every night at Common Ground at Mailk's house and they would find some means of intimidating the hell out of us.
警察每晚都会出现在梅尔克家的公共场所，他们会找到一些恐吓我们的方法。
Arrest everybody for things.
逮捕所有人。
Like, I almost got arrested because I didn't have proof that my car was registered.
就像，我差点被逮捕，因为我没有证据证明我的车已经登记。
And I was like, well look at my sticker.
我当时想，看看我的贴纸。
And they go, yeah, but do you have a receipt for it?
他们走了，是的，但是你有收据吗？
And I was like, I don't think I need a receipt.
我当时想，我认为我不需要收据。
They're like, well Mr. Darby if you don't have a receipt, I'm going to arrest you.
他们就像，达比先生，如果你没有收据，我就会逮捕你。
And it's like, well, OK, I guess you're going to arrest me, because I don't this-- like really find infractions to arrest us with.
就像，好吧，我想你会逮捕我，因为我不会真的发现违规行为来逮捕我们。
Major John Bryson with the New Orleans Police Department was in command of the Ninth Ward.
新奥尔良警察局的约翰·布赖森少校负责指挥第九区。
One of the first people that I ran into on the streets was Brandon Darby.
我在街上遇到的第一批人之一是布兰登·达比（Brandon Darby）。
I invited Darby and his staff over to the Fifth District police station where we met in a trailer, of all things.
我邀请达比和他的工作人员去第五区警察局，我们是在一辆拖车里见面的。
That's what we were actually working out of, temporary trailers.
这就是我们实际上正在制作的临时拖车。
And it was a very interesting first meeting.
这是一次非常有趣的第一次会面。
Brandon kept interrupting what I was telling him, what was expected of them.
布兰登不断打断我正在告诉他的话，以及对他们的期望。
And he laid some expectations down on police.
他对警方寄予了一些期望。
He kept saying that you don't understand, I'm an activist.
他一直说你不懂，我是一名活动人士。
I said yes, Mr. Darby, I know you're an activist, and I'm just being just as polite as I could be.
我说是的，达比先生，我知道你是一位活动家，我只是尽可能礼貌地表达你的意思。
But Brandon was at my throat.
但布兰登却在我的喉咙里。
He kept saying that you don't understand, we're going to be videotaping you, we're going to be audiotaping you.
他一直说你不明白，我们要给你录像，我们要给你录音。
I mean he was-- very aggressive meeting, I would say, on his part.
我的意思是，我想说，就他而言，他的会议非常激进。
But over the coming days and weeks and months of watching them do what they did.
但在接下来的几天、几周和几个月里，我们会观察他们所做的事情。
Bringing in, my God, doctors and feeding people.
天哪，请来了医生并为人们提供食物。
It was just a work of art.
这只是一件艺术品。
And I'm not saying this is what they said.
我并不是说他们就是这么说的。
I'm telling you what I saw.
我告诉你我所看到的。
And we were scratching our heads trying to figure out, well, where's the government?
我们绞尽脑汁想弄清楚，政府在哪里？
At the same time Bryson was changing his mind about Common Ground, Brandon began changing his mind about Bryson.
在布赖森改变对共同点的看法的同时，布兰登也开始改变对布赖森的看法。
It started when he got a call from Bryson.
当他接到布赖森的电话时，事情就开始了。
He said, hey Brandon.
他说，嘿布兰登。
I was driving around my district, thinking of how much I dislike you and what you stand for.
我开车绕着我的地区转，想着我是多么不喜欢你和你所代表的东西。
And I was like, I was just thinking about how much I dislike you, too.
我当时想，我只是在想我也有多不喜欢你。
And he was like, but I came across all these youngsters who said that you had given them medicine to deliver to elderly residents.
他说，但我遇到所有这些年轻人，他们说你给了他们药物，让他们送给老年居民。
A lot of them I know.
他们中的很多人我都认识。
And I said yeah, that's what we do.
我说是的，这就是我们所做的。
And he goes, well I'm having a hard time disliking you when you're doing stuff like that.
他说，好吧，当你做这样的事情时，我很难不喜欢你。
And I said well, I'm having a hard time disliking you when you're talking to me like this.
我说好吧，当你这样跟我说话时，我很难不喜欢你。
And that was the start of an interesting friendship.
这就是一段有趣友谊的开始。
Brandon, to his surprise, started thinking that maybe he and some of the police in New Orleans were actually on the same side, trying to do the same thing.
令布兰登惊讶的是，他开始思考也许他和新奥尔良的一些警察实际上是站在同一边的，试图做同样的事情。
Fix a crippled city.
修复一座残破的城市。
Meanwhile, Brandon found himself in an organization with hundreds of volunteers and no clear hierarchy.
与此同时，布兰登发现自己所在的组织有数百名志愿者，而且没有明确的等级制度。
Others at Common Ground wanted to run the organization by consensus, where everyone gets a say and no one walks around telling other people what to do.
Common Ground 的其他人希望通过共识来管理该组织，每个人都有发言权，没有人到处告诉其他人该做什么。
But Brandon came to believe that the volunteers did need someone telling them what to do.
但布兰登开始相信，志愿者们确实需要有人告诉他们该做什么。
And what not to do.
以及不该做什么。
Folks would take over the kitchen and decide because they were the kitchen now, and they wouldn't tell you this before they took over the kitchen responsibilities, but then once they took over the kitchen responsibilities, it became a vegan kitchen.
人们会接管厨房并做出决定，因为他们现在就是厨房，在他们接管厨房职责之前他们不会告诉你这一点，但是一旦他们接管厨房职责，它就变成了纯素厨房。
That's like, well, A, we're relying on handouts here.
这就像，好吧，A，我们在这里依靠施舍。
Like we don't have money to buy food ourselves to feed people.
就像我们没有钱自己买食物来养活别人一样。
And, B, the people we're serving don't want vegan food.
而且，B，我们服务的人们不想要纯素食品。
They might not like ginger noodles every day.
他们可能不喜欢每天吃姜面。
And like, well our kitchen has decided-- that we as the kitchen crew have decided through our process that we're not going to serve oppression.
就像，我们的厨房已经决定——我们作为厨房工作人员已经通过我们的流程决定我们不会为压迫服务。
And I was like, well, then I've decided that you're not going to work in the kitchen.
我当时想，好吧，那么我决定你不会在厨房工作了。
A lot of people were mad because, well I don't consense on working in a church because churches are patriarchal, and churches are-- And I say, well, then don't work in a church, but we're working in the church.
很多人很生气，因为，我不同意在教会工作，因为教会是父权制的，而教会是——我说，好吧，那就不要在教会工作，但我们正在教会工作。
Thankfully there's like 20 other areas of the city that are open for leadership.
值得庆幸的是，该市还有大约 20 个其他区域可供领导层使用。
Why don't you go talk to Malik and ask Malik if you can take that area and run that area how you see fit.
你为什么不去和马利克谈谈并询问马利克你是否可以占领该地区并按照你认为合适的方式管理该地区。
Brandon had rebelled against authority his entire life.
布兰登一生都在反抗权威。
He didn't trust authority figures.
他不信任权威人物。
Now he was the authority figure.
现在他是权威人物。
And this was one of many ways that Brandon was finding himself out of sync with the anarchists at Common Ground.
这是布兰登发现自己与共同点的无政府主义者脱节的众多方式之一。
Brandon yelled at people.
布兰登对人们大喊大叫。
He ate meat.
他吃肉。
He slept with a lot of women.
他和很多女人睡过。
Plenty of them Common Ground volunteers.
他们中很多人都是共同点志愿者。
He owned guns.
他拥有枪支。
A lot of people thought he was a bully, including the other people who created Common Ground-- Scott Crowe, Malik Rahim, and Lisa Fithian.
很多人认为他是一个恶霸，包括创建共同点的其他人——斯科特·克劳、马利克·拉希姆和丽莎·菲蒂安。
He didn't ask a lot of times.
他没有问很多次。
He just assumed that nobody knew what they were doing.
他只是假设没有人知道他们在做什么。
And he was going to do it, even though he'd never organized anything, never organized, never organized anything.
他打算这么做，尽管他从来没有组织过任何事情，从来没有组织过，从来没有组织过任何事情。
Zero.
零。
You know, Common Ground wouldn't be, I know we wouldn't be around now if Brandon would still be here because of the chaos that he started and he perpetuated.
你知道，共同点不会存在，我知道如果布兰登还在这里，我们现在就不会存在了，因为他开始并延续了混乱。
It was all about him if Brandon's all about the community, he's all about community if he gets to be the savior.
如果布兰登关心社区，那么他就是他的全部；如果他成为救世主，他也关心社区。
A documentary on YouTube shows Brandon at his desk when he was in charge of Common Ground.
YouTube 上的一部纪录片展示了布兰登负责 Common Ground 时坐在办公桌前的情景。
He sits in front of a boarded-up window with a sign on it that says "Stop police corruption.
他坐在一扇用木板封起来的窗户前，上面写着“制止警察腐败。
Call Brandon Darby." In the video, he launches into one of his signature political rants that manages to connect Katrina to just about any other historical injustice he can think of.
给布兰登·达比打电话。”在视频中，他发表了他标志性的政治咆哮之一，成功地将卡特里娜飓风与他能想到的任何其他历史不公正现象联系起来。
[AUDIO PLAYBACK] -Yes, the same people that decided, you know, inject black men with syphilis in Tuskegee and, and decided to drop an atomic bomb that caused cancer in millions and millions of people.
[音频回放] - 是的，就是这些人决定，你知道，在塔斯基吉给黑人注射梅毒，并决定投下一颗原子弹，导致数以百万计的人罹患癌症。
We have these people deciding when it is or is not appropriate to deliver humanitarian aid.
我们让这些人决定何时适合或不适合提供人道主义援助。
[END AUDIO PLAYBACK] But the more Brandon talked to the residents in New Orleans, the people he was trying to help and trying to sell them on his politics, the less he could avoid yet another unsettling conclusion.
[音频回放结束] 但是，布兰登与新奥尔良的居民、他试图帮助的人们以及试图向他们推销他的政治观点的人交谈得越多，他就越难避免另一个令人不安的结论。
As much as I might want revolution, the residents don't.
尽管我可能很想要革命，但居民们却不这么想。
For instance, Brandon had a plan that he was excited about.
例如，布兰登有一个令他兴奋的计划。
When the president of Venezuela, Hugo Chavez, made a grandstanding offer to help New Orleans after Katrina, Brandon wanted to take him up on it.
当委内瑞拉总统乌戈·查韦斯在卡特里娜飓风过后向新奥尔良提供援助时，布兰登希望接受他的提议。
Initially, a lot of residents were cool.
最初，很多居民都很冷静。
They're like, I don't care who helps us.
他们就像，我不在乎谁帮助我们。
But after a while a lot of them weren't.
但过了一段时间后，很多人都不再这样了。
And it was like, yeah, but we can get money and they can build trailers for you, like Chavez trailers.
就像，是的，但是我们可以拿到钱，他们可以为你建造拖车，就像查韦斯的拖车一样。
If the FEMA is not going to give you trailers like they're supposed to by law, we'll get Chavez trailers.
如果联邦紧急事务管理署不按照法律规定向您提供拖车，我们将提供查韦斯的拖车。
And then the US government will look at that and go, gee, this is embarrassing.
然后美国政府会看到这一点，然后说，天哪，这太尴尬了。
We better build FEMA trailers for them.
我们最好为他们建造 FEMA 拖车。
And there were like, no, bro.
还有人说，不，兄弟。
I love my country.
我爱我的国家。
It ain't about that for me.
对我来说不是这个。
My kid's in the military, man.
我的孩子在军队，伙计。
I support my kid in the military.
我支持我的孩子参军。
I just want my house, and I want my kids to come back, and I want my grandma's house next door to get fixed.
我只想要我的房子，我想要我的孩子们回来，我想要隔壁奶奶的房子修好。
That's all I want.
这就是我想要的。
I don't want the Ayatollah buying me any houses.
我不想让阿亚图拉给我买任何房子。
That's OK.
没关系。
I'd rather be homeless.
我宁愿无家可归。
See, these people in the Ninth Ward ain't activists, bro.
看吧，第九区的这些人不是活动家，兄弟。
They ain't going to be activists.
他们不会成为活动家。
Ken Gaspard again.
又是肯·加斯帕德。
The Ninth Ward resident.
第九区居民。
You know, at one point, they wanted me to come with them to protest the closing, tearing down of one of the low-income projects.
你知道，有一次，他们希望我和他们一起去抗议关闭、拆除一个低收入项目。
I asked him are you [BLEEP] crazy?
我问他你[BLEEP]疯了吗？
'Cause you know what?
因为你知道什么？
They'll look at you and go like, hmm, he ain't from here.
他们会看着你然后说，嗯，他不是这里人。
But me?
但我呢？
I'll be the first one they cart off to jail.
我将是他们第一个送进监狱的人。
But in spite of residents' objections, Brandon went to Venezuela.
但布兰登不顾居民的反对，还是去了委内瑞拉。
He and a group of activists flew to Caracas.
他和一群活动人士飞往加拉加斯。
And Brandon met with an official in the Chavez government to ask for money for Common Ground.
布兰登会见了查韦斯政府的一名官员，向共同基础组织索要资金。
And that's when things got weird.
就在那时事情变得奇怪了。
So we're in his office and I was just like in heaven, I was like, wow.
所以我们在他的办公室里，我就像在天堂一样，我想，哇。
I'm in this revolutionary country for the people of the United States who are oppressed.
我在这个革命国家是为了受压迫的美国人民。
And over a period of time, the conversation turned into, would I go with him to Colombia to meet with FARC?
一段时间后，谈话变成了，我会和他一起去哥伦比亚与哥伦比亚革命武装力量会面吗？
The FARC is a communist guerrilla group that's been at war with the Colombian government for more than 40 years, and sometimes kidnaps people.
FARC 是一个共产主义游击队组织，与哥伦比亚政府交战已有 40 多年，有时还会绑架人员。
Brandon started to get panicky.
布兰登开始惊慌起来。
What if these guys are working with the FARC and want to kidnap an American with resources, or what if-- I didn't know what the heck was going on.
如果这些人与哥伦比亚革命武装力量合作并想用资源绑架一名美国人怎么办，或者如果——我不知道到底发生了什么。
But these guys began to pressure me, and over a number of days and over about a week, they were really laying it on me to go with them to Colombia.
但这些人开始向我施加压力，在几天和大约一周的时间里，他们真的要求我和他们一起去哥伦比亚。
What was it they were telling you?
他们告诉你什么？
Why did they want you to?
他们为什么要你这么做？
They said they wanted to help me start a guerrilla movement in the swamps of Louisiana.
他们说他们想帮助我在路易斯安那州的沼泽地开展游击运动。
And I was like, I don't think so.
我当时想，我不这么认为。
I don't think I'm going to do that, thank you.
我不认为我会这样做，谢谢。
And what-- Brandon Darby Aren't you a revolutionary?
还有什么——布兰登·达比（Brandon Darby）你不是革命者吗？
Aren't you a revolutionary?
你不是革命者吗？
Then what do you care about the danger?
那你还关心什么危险呢？
Come with us, come-- you should meet these people.
跟我们来吧，来吧——你应该去见见这些人。
I was like, yeah-- Not going to do it, you know?
我当时想，是的——不会这么做，你知道吗？
Brandon, it turned out, was not a revolutionary.
事实证明，布兰登并不是一位革命者。
When push came to shove, he didn't want the violent overthrow of the US government.
当紧要关头，他不希望美国政府被暴力推翻。
When Brandon returned from Venezuela, he went back to Common Ground, but it didn't end well.
布兰登从委内瑞拉回来后，又回到了共同点，但结局并不好。
The group was in chaos and having money troubles.
集团陷入混乱，资金也陷入困境。
Brandon it took over officially as director of the whole operation.
布兰登正式接任整个运营总监。
And his blunt methods in contempt for consensus led to a mutiny.
他蔑视共识的直率方法导致了叛乱。
Around 10 coordinators at Common Ground resigned in protest.
Common Ground 的大约 10 名协调员辞职以示抗议。
Brandon managed to stay in charge and fix some things in the organization.
布兰登设法继续负责并解决了组织中的一些问题。
But within six months, he left Common Ground and never went back.
但六个月之内，他离开了共同点，再也没有回去过。
Politics.
政治。
It's politics, you know?
这是政治，你知道吗？
We were no more morally correct than the political system of the US government.
我们在道德上并不比美国政府的政治制度更正确。
It was a big realization for me that I was on the wrong track.
对我来说，这是一个很大的认识，我走错了路。
I didn't see Brandon for three and a half years after Katrina.
卡特里娜飓风过后我已经三年半没有见到布兰登了。
And so it's strange, to say the least, to meet the former revolutionary in his hotel room in Minneapolis, where he showed me what he was planning to wear to testify against one of the activists he'd informed on for the FBI.
因此，至少可以说，在明尼阿波利斯的酒店房间里见到这位前革命家是很奇怪的，他在那里向我展示了他打算穿什么来作证指控他向联邦调查局举报的一名活动人士。
This is my suit and underwear.
这是我的西装和内衣。
I didn't bring my slacks over.
我没有把我的裤子拿过来。
The FBI did not recruit Brandon.
联邦调查局没有招募布兰登。
He wasn't a criminal they'd convinced to snitch in exchange for a lower sentence.
他并不是他们说服告密以换取较轻刑罚的罪犯。
He went to them, but not right away.
他去找他们，但不是马上。
Coming up.
即将到来。
How a revolutionary becomes a spy.
革命者如何成为间谍。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.
一分钟后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
This is This American Life, I'm Ira Glass.
这就是美国生活，我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program of course, we choose a theme and bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，在我们的节目中，我们每周都会选择一个主题，并为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's show, Turncoats.
今天的节目，叛徒。
And we return to Michael May's story about the political activist, Brandon Darby.
我们回到迈克尔·梅关于政治活动家布兰登·达比的故事。
When Brandon left Common Ground and went back to Austin in the beginning of 2007, he turned toward something quite exotic to him.
2007 年初，当布兰登离开 Common Ground 回到奥斯汀时，他转向了一些对他来说非常陌生的东西。
Ordinary life.
平凡的生活。
He bought a house.
他买了房子。
His daughter was born.
他的女儿出生了。
He tended his garden.
他照料他的花园。
I just tried to fit back into normalcy.
我只是试图恢复正常。
Not being in New Orleans.
不在新奥尔良。
Not being in the situation I was in in New Orleans.
不像我在新奥尔良时的情况。
I think at the time, I was having a very difficult time making sense of my views, I guess.
我想当时我很难理解我的观点。
Brandon also missed the intensity of Common Ground, and the moral certainty.
布兰登也怀念共同点的强度和道德确定性。
He had idea for an organization called Critical Response, where he would lead medics into war zones to help civilians caught in the crossfire.
他想到了成立一个名为“关键反应”的组织，带领医务人员进入战区，帮助陷入交火的平民。
They'd go to Lebanon, or maybe Darfur.
他们会去黎巴嫩，或者达尔富尔。
But instead, one of the acquaintances he made while planning Critical Response, an older man who ran a Palestinian charity, came to him with a very different plan.
但相反，他在计划“批判性回应”时结识的一位经营巴勒斯坦慈善机构的老人向他提出了一个截然不同的计划。
An idea to put explosives on motorcycles so that they could go through the barricades that were meant for vehicles.
一个想法是在摩托车上安装炸药，这样它们就可以穿过为车辆设置的路障。
Where?
在哪里？
Brandon Darby In Israel.
布兰登·达比在以色列。
And I didn't agree with it.
我不同意。
And that person went further to ask me to help them funnel money to Hezbollah and Hamas.
那个人还进一步要求我帮助他们向真主党和哈马斯输送资金。
And I was like, no, I'm not doing this, man.
我当时想，不，我不会这样做，伙计。
Brandon was going to let it go.
布兰登打算放手。
But the man started asking other people to do it.
但该男子开始要求其他人这样做。
People Brandon knew.
布兰登认识的人。
So he went to the one cop he trusted.
于是他去找了他信任的一位警察。
Major Bryson of the New Orleans Police Department.
新奥尔良警察局的布赖森少校。
His onetime adversary, now ally.
他曾经的对手，现在的盟友。
It was Bryson who suggested that Brandon tell the FBI.
布莱森建议布兰登告诉联邦调查局。
So how do you do that?
那么你该怎么做呢？
You just walk into the FBI office?
你刚刚走进联邦调查局办公室吗？
No, you don't-- you could just walk in if you wanted to, I suppose.
不，你不需要——我想，如果你愿意的话，你可以直接走进去。
They'd probably talk with you.
他们可能会和你谈谈。
But a meeting was set up.
但还是召开了一次会议。
He gave me a phone number.
他给了我一个电话号码。
I called the number.
我拨通了号码。
And then that man brought another agent with him.
然后那个人还带来了另一个特工。
And we met and had a cup of coffee and talked.
我们见面了，喝了杯咖啡，聊了聊。
And I left, and I drove back to Austin.
我离开了，然后开车回到奥斯汀。
And It was just a strange experience.
这只是一次奇怪的经历。
And I was really bothered by the fact that I had met with the FBI.
我对与联邦调查局会面这一事实感到非常困扰。
I felt like I had done something that I would never be able to tell anybody about.
我觉得我做了一些我永远无法告诉任何人的事情。
And then ultimately, it began bother me.
最终，它开始困扰我。
I was like, well, wait a minute.
我当时想，好吧，等一下。
I just did something that probably prevented people from getting blown up.
我只是做了一些可能可以防止人们被炸毁的事情。
Who are the people I associate with that if I said, hey, I tried to stop violence, they would be upset with me?
如果我说，嘿，我试图制止暴力，他们会生我的气吗？
And the more Brandon thought about it, the more he remembered how many times he'd come close to violent political action himself.
布兰登想得越多，他就越记得自己有多少次差点采取暴力政治行动。
Over the years, he'd been asked by friends to get together and rob an armored car for the revolution.
多年来，他一直受朋友邀请，为革命而聚在一起抢劫一辆装甲车。
He'd been invited to train to do eco-terrorism.
他被邀请参加生态恐怖主义培训。
He'd had long, serious talks about committing arson to fight gentrification.
他曾就纵火以对抗中产阶级化进行过长时间、严肃的讨论。
He never did any of that.
他从来没有这样做过。
But now, maybe because he'd gotten older and less angry, or because of his experiences at Common Ground and in Venezuela, he decided he needed to take a stand against it.
但现在，也许是因为他年纪大了，不再那么生气了，或者是因为他在共同点和委内瑞拉的经历，他决定需要采取反对的立场。
He called the FBI back and volunteered to become an informant.
他给联邦调查局回了电话，并自愿成为一名线人。
And in my interviews with him, I asked him over and over-- Why go that far?
在对他的采访中，我一遍又一遍地问他——为什么要走那么远？
I could see why he'd gone to the FBI in the first place, but to become an informant?
我明白他为什么要去联邦调查局，但要成为一名线人？
To go undercover?
去卧底？
Not many people would choose that option.
没有多少人会选择这个选项。
Especially people who just bought a house and had a kid.
尤其是刚买了房子、有了孩子的人。
I ran one theory by him and he didn't react well.
我向他提出了一种理论，但他反应不佳。
My desire is to be a hero.
我的愿望是成为英雄。
Like that's a really, I feel a kind of a negative way to portray that.
就像这真的一样，我觉得用一种消极的方式来描述它。
I don't think that's a fair analysis, you know?
我认为这不是一个公平的分析，你知道吗？
Why is that-- Brandon Darby I don't think I want to be a hero anymore than someone who's a firefighter.
这是为什么——布兰登·达比（Brandon Darby） 我想我不想成为英雄，也不想成为消防员。
Are they firefighters because they want to be a hero?
他们成为消防员是因为想成为英雄吗？
How would you call it, then?
那你会怎么称呼它呢？
I mean you put it like--
我的意思是你说的是——
I think some people feel a natural desire to stick up for others.
我认为有些人会自然而然地渴望为他人辩护。
Why is this up to you?
为什么这取决于你？
Brandon Darby 'Cause it's in my lap.
布兰登·达比 因为它在我腿上。
It's in my lap, you know?
它在我腿上，你知道吗？
That's the deal.
就是这样。
Is some people--
是不是有些人——
Well it kinda was in my lap though, that's the thing.
好吧，虽然它有点在我的腿上，但就是这样。
Because-- it was in my lap because I had access to buy a boat.
因为——它就在我的腿上，因为我有机会买一艘船。
And I knew that I had just the right mentality that I was going to go and get my friend.
我知道我的心态是正确的，我要去接我的朋友。
And I knew that nobody was going to tell me I wasn't.
我知道没有人会告诉我我不是。
And so I did it.
我就这么做了。
That's what I did.
我就是这么做的。
And that's kind of been how I've always done things.
这就是我一直做事的方式。
That's what my brain naturally does, you know?
这就是我的大脑自然会做的事，你知道吗？
Some people are really good with numbers and they're accountants.
有些人非常擅长数字，他们是会计师。
My brain thinks of ways to fix things I think are wrong.
我的大脑会想办法纠正我认为错误的事情。
It was during this conversation, roughly our 17th, that I finally understood.
正是在这次谈话中，大约是我们第 17 次谈话中，我终于明白了。
Brandon kept using this analogy.
布兰登一直用这个比喻。
He'd say, if you walked by an alley and saw someone getting beat up, wouldn't you try and stop it?
他会说，如果你走过巷子，看到有人被打，你会不会去阻止？
And I thought, well yeah.
我想，好吧。
But how often does that happen?
但这种情况多久发生一次？
Brandon is always walking by that alley.
布兰登总是走过那条小巷。
There some words I get sensitive about, like hero complex.
有些词我很敏感，比如英雄情结。
But I kind of think all of us as activists have some degree of that.
但我认为，作为积极分子，我们所有人都具有某种程度的这种倾向。
I definitely know I do, you know?
我绝对知道我知道，你知道吗？
But I think more than that the thing that doesn't feel good is when you could have saved someone and you don't.
但我认为，更令人不舒服的是，你本可以拯救某人，但你却没有这样做。
That sucks.
太糟糕了。
When you can fix something and you don't.
当你可以解决某些问题但你却没有解决时。
When you can't hold people accountable, and you don't.
当你无法让人们承担责任时，你也没有这样做。
So Brandon's work as an undercover informant for the FBI began.
于是布兰登作为联邦调查局卧底线人的工作开始了。
Brandon met David McKay and Brad Crowder, the two guys who were convicted of making molotov cocktails, at a meeting in Austin at the Monkey Wrench Bookstore in February of 2008.
2008 年 2 月，布兰登在奥斯汀 Monkey Wrench 书店的一次会议上认识了戴维·麦凯 (David McKay) 和布拉德·克劳德 (Brad Crowder)，这两个人因制造燃烧弹而被定罪。
A group called the RNC Welcoming Committee was recruiting protesters for the Republican National Convention in Saint Paul.
一个名为共和党全国委员会欢迎委员会的组织正在招募抗议者参加在圣保罗举行的共和党全国代表大会。
The goal was to shut down the event with swarms of activists, including some using black bloc anarchist tactics.
目标是用大批活动人士来结束这次活动，其中一些活动人士使用了黑人集团无政府主义策略。
Protesters you've probably seen with black bandanas covering their faces, making human chains, pushing dumpsters into the street, breaking glass.
您可能见过用黑色头巾遮住脸部的抗议者，他们制造人链，将垃圾箱推到街上，打碎玻璃。
The FBI sent Brandon to the RNC Welcoming Committee meeting to check it out.
联邦调查局派布兰登前往共和党全国委员会欢迎委员会会议进行核实。
Brandon thought spying on them was a waste of time, but he says when he got there the group used a phrase that alarmed him.
布兰登认为监视他们是浪费时间，但他说当他到达那里时，该组织使用了一个让他感到震惊的短语。
They talked about protests involving "a diversity of tactics."
他们谈到了涉及“多种策略”的抗议活动。
It's a common term used in radical leftist circles in relation to arson.
这是激进左派圈子中与纵火有关的常用术语。
And Brandon says from that moment, it seemed possible to him that something violent might happen at the convention.
布兰登说，从那一刻起，他觉得大会上可能会发生暴力事件。
Not likely, but possible.
不太可能，但有可能。
I think ultimately, there's a lot of bark and no bite with a lot of people.
我认为归根结底，还是有很多人在吠叫，没有咬人。
I think you have a lot of people who are very reasonable and rational, as much as I might not agree with the way they do think sometimes, pretty reasonable people.
我认为有很多人非常通情达理，尽管我有时可能不同意他们的想法，但他们是非常通情达理的人。
But the thing is, there are always someone who will do it, when the space is created for him to do so and the support network is set up for him to do so.
但问题是，只要为他创造了这样做的空间并为他建立了支持网络，总会有人会这样做。
I felt like there would probably be some who would do something crazy even though the majority wouldn't.
我觉得可能会有一些人会做一些疯狂的事情，尽管大多数人不会。
For the next six months, Brandon spied on guys who were essentially younger versions of himself.
在接下来的六个月里，布兰登监视着那些本质上是自己年轻版的人。
Two Texas activists in their early 20s who didn't have college degrees and turned to leftist politics to help them make sense of the world.
两名二十岁出头的德克萨斯州活动人士没有大学学位，他们转向左翼政治来帮助他们理解世界。
Brandon identified with them, especially Brad.
布兰登认同他们，尤其是布拉德。
I related to him a lot.
我和他有很多关系。
And I related to David McKay somewhat, too.
我和大卫·麦凯也有一些关系。
I thought he was probably a pretty decent guy who was getting caught up in some stuff that I would have hoped he wouldn't have got caught up in.
我认为他可能是一个相当正派的人，只是陷入了一些我希望他不会陷入的事情中。
My initial reaction to he and to Brad was like I should try to find a way to just get these guys and tell them the people they're associating with it are being idiots.
我对他和布拉德的最初反应是，我应该设法找到一种方法来找到这些人，并告诉他们与他们交往的人都是白痴。
But again that's not the role I was playing.
但这又不是我扮演的角色。
The FBI told Brandon that the role he was playing was to be accepted by the group but not to be the leader.
联邦调查局告诉布兰登，他所扮演的角色是要被该组织接受，但不是领导者。
But Brandon had an odd way of trying to pull that off.
但布兰登尝试用一种奇怪的方式来实现这一目标。
He became a sort of caricature of his former hardcore activist self.
他成为了他以前的铁杆活动家自我的讽刺漫画。
In Brandon's own FBI reports entered in David McKay's trial, he talked about berating David and Brad as tofu eaters who needed to bulk up, saying he was going to the RNC to shut the [BLEEP] down.
在布兰登自己的联邦调查局报告中，对大卫·麦凯的审判中，他谈到斥责大卫和布拉德是吃豆腐的人，需要增肥，并说他要去共和党全国委员会关闭[BLEEP]。
And bragging that any group I go with will be successful.
并吹嘘我参加的任何团体都会成功。
Brad Crowder wouldn't agree to an interview.
布拉德·克劳德不同意接受采访。
But David McKay remembers the meetings with Brandon.
但大卫·麦凯记得与布兰登的会面。
We had a lot of discussions about how we need to be-- how he was criticizing us about our physical-- where we were physically.
我们进行了很多讨论，讨论我们需要如何——他如何批评我们的身体——我们的身体状况。
He gave Brad a lot of flack about that because Brad's a very skinny individual.
他对此给予了布拉德很多批评，因为布拉德是一个非常瘦的人。
He's not very athletic and stuff like that.
他不太擅长运动之类的。
And he always, like, put him in a choke hold out of nowhere one time, just to test what Brad would do.
他总是会突然让他窒息，只是为了测试布拉德会做什么。
And like things like that.
诸如此类的事情。
Like comments about how Brad specifically, and me too, were kind of like weaklings.
就像关于布拉德（特别是我）如何像弱者一样的评论。
Why did you put up with us?
你为什么要忍受我们？
David Mckay Well, we really didn't want to.
大卫·麦凯：好吧，我们真的不想这么做。
We really didn't.
我们真的没有。
And we really didn't feel very comfortable about Brandon for a long time, but it always came into play that we had never done anything like this, ever.
很长一段时间以来，我们确实对布兰登感到不太舒服，但我们从来没有做过这样的事情，这总是会发挥作用。
We didn't want to just be these guys who just showed up without any, like, credentials, or any kind of credit.
我们不想成为那些没有任何证书或任何信用就出现的人。
And like, that's everything that Brandon was.
就像，这就是布兰登的一切。
He was the activist guy from Austin.
他是来自奥斯汀的激进分子。
And like with him, we felt like we were legitimate.
就像和他一样，我们觉得我们是合法的。
Being a revolutionary instead of an activist was kind of what he made the situation feel like.
作为一名革命者而不是一名活动家，这就是他让这种情况产生的感觉。
That we weren't just going here to protest, but we were coming here to fight for our beliefs.
我们来这里不仅仅是为了抗议，而是为了我们的信仰而战。
Not just to voice our opinion, but to actually fight.
不仅仅是表达我们的意见，而是实际战斗。
Brandon says that if he was busting their chops, it was because he was trying to discourage them without stepping out of character.
布兰登说，如果他让他们大吃一惊，那是因为他试图在不违背自己性格的情况下劝阻他们。
In other words, the very things that David says egged him on are the things Brandon says were supposed to stop him.
换句话说，大卫所说的怂恿他的事情正是布兰登所说的应该阻止他的事情。
When they talked about their willingness to go to prison, then what I did was begin to tease them about the fact that they weren't prepared to go to prison and probably weren't prepared to make those kind of decisions for themselves.
当他们谈到愿意入狱时，我所做的就是开始取笑他们，说他们不准备入狱，而且可能不准备为自己做出此类决定。
Saying like, you guys have no muscle mass.
话说，你们没有肌肉。
You would get killed in prison.
你会在监狱里被杀。
So yes, I did say things to try to discourage them from doing stuff.
所以，是的，我确实说了一些话来阻止他们做事。
And I felt the pull between my role as a person working with law enforcement and my role as just an older person who had some realizations in my life and wanted to discourage people.
我感受到了我作为一名执法人员的角色和作为一个对生活有一些认识并想要劝阻人们的老年人的角色之间的拉力。
Was a huge dilemma for me the entire time.
对我来说一直是一个巨大的困境。
It was something that I struggled with the entire time.
这是我一直在挣扎的事情。
In August 2008, on the eve of the Republican National Convention, Brandon traveled to Minneapolis with David, Brad and a few others in a van dragging a trailer full of homemade shields and other protest equipment.
2008 年 8 月，共和党全国代表大会前夕，布兰登与大卫、布拉德和其他几个人乘坐一辆面包车前往明尼阿波利斯，拖着一辆装满自制盾牌和其他抗议装备的拖车。
Brandon tipped off the FBI.
布兰登向联邦调查局通风报信。
And as soon as the group parked the U-Haul, the cops raided it and took the shields and everyone else's stuff.
当这群人把 U-Haul 车停好后，警察就突袭了它，拿走了盾牌和其他人的东西。
David and Brad were angry about the shields.
大卫和布拉德对盾牌感到愤怒。
And they didn't want to show up at the protest empty-handed.
他们不想空手出席抗议活动。
So David McKay says they made eight molotov cocktails in about 15 minutes with supplies they bought from a Minneapolis Walmart.
大卫·麦凯说，他们用从明尼阿波利斯沃尔玛购买的材料在大约 15 分钟内制作了八杯燃烧弹。
It was just gasoline in a bottle with little bit of oil and then he duct taped the top.
它只是装在瓶子里的汽油和一点点油，然后他用胶带把顶部粘起来。
And that's it.
就是这样。
Where did you do it?
你在哪里做的？
David Mckay In the bathroom, in the tub.
大卫·麦凯 在浴室的浴缸里。
Yeah.
是的。
No, it is incredibly easy.
不，这非常简单。
The fumes were really strong, so right after we went outside.
烟雾真的很浓，所以我们一出去就。
And by that time it was nighttime and we kind of just sat up on the roof and-- He going to get mad at me that I'm going to tell you this but, we talked about-- before we talked to anybody and we were like, I said to him I hope this isn't one of those "when keeping it real goes wrong" scenarios.
那时已经是晚上了，我们就坐在屋顶上——他会生我的气，因为我要告诉你这个，但是，我们讨论过——在我们和任何人交谈之前，我们就像，我对他说，我希望这不是那种“保持真实会出错”的场景之一。
And we kind of laughed and.
我们有点笑了。
No, we were very light-hearted about the whole situation.
不，我们对整个情况非常轻松。
When word got out to the rest of the activists about the molotovs, they weren't so light-hearted.
当有关燃烧弹的消息传到其他积极分子时，他们并没有那么轻松。
In fact, they were angry.
事实上，他们很生气。
When we found like, how the group felt about the situation, that impacted us a lot because we're like, well we're going to bring something to the group of people that we'll be able to use and implement.
当我们发现团队对这种情况的感受时，这对我们影响很大，因为我们想，我们将给团队带来一些我们能够使用和实施的东西。
We'll be doing another good thing.
我们还会做另一件好事。
We'll be helping them out.
我们会帮助他们。
When we heard from them, you know, what you're doing is ridiculous, stupid, and dangerous.
当我们听到他们的消息时，你知道，你所做的事情是荒谬、愚蠢和危险的。
That made us feel like, well, we need to rethink this.
这让我们觉得，我们需要重新考虑这一点。
What follows is a depressing series of events, no matter whom you believe.
无论你相信谁，接下来发生的都是一系列令人沮丧的事件。
David and Brad never used the molotov cocktails.
大卫和布拉德从未使用过燃烧弹。
They left them stuffed in bags in a basement while they went out to protest.
当他们出去抗议时，他们把这些东西塞在袋子里放在地下室里。
But Brandon, on behalf of the FBI, asked David what he planned to do with the molotov cocktails.
但布兰登代表联邦调查局询问大卫他打算如何处理这些燃烧弹。
David now says he didn't want to lose face with Brandon, so he made up a plan.
大卫现在说他不想在布兰登面前丢脸，所以他制定了一个计划。
He suggested that he and Brandon use the molotovs that night on a parking lot filled with cop cars next to a checkpoint.
他建议他和布兰登那天晚上在检查站旁边停满警车的停车场使用燃烧弹。
If David wasn't serious about doing it, as he testified, he made a terrible mistake by telling an FBI informer that's what he was planning.
正如大卫所证明的那样，如果大卫不是认真地这样做，那么他告诉联邦调查局线人这就是他的计划，就犯了一个可怕的错误。
I didn't want him to think that I was scared.
我不想让他认为我害怕。
Scared of what was going to happen.
害怕将要发生什么。
Or afraid of him.
或者说怕他。
Brandon, for his part, says he did everything he could to stop David.
布兰登则表示，他已尽一切努力阻止大卫。
But again, the way he did it seems as much like goading as discouragement.
但他的做法又像是在劝阻，又像是在刺激。
I told him a lot of times, a number of times that I didn't think it was a good idea.
我告诉他很多次，很多次我认为这不是一个好主意。
If he wanted to back out, I wouldn't tell anybody.
如果他想退出，我不会告诉任何人。
Nobody would know.
没有人会知道。
I did say I'm a revolutionary and if you want to do this, I'll do it with you.
我说过我是革命者，如果你想做，我就和你一起做。
But as a revolutionary, I think people should probably wait 'til they're 30 before they make decisions that could put them in prison for two decades.
但作为一名革命者，我认为人们应该等到 30 岁才做出可能会让他们入狱二十年的决定。
That's what I said to him.
我就是这么对他说的。
I said it over and over again.
我说了一遍又一遍。
That he's not old enough to make that decision.
他还不够大，无法做出这个决定。
And I'm glad I didn't make decisions like that in my 20s I think people should wait 'til their 30.
我很高兴我在 20 多岁的时候没有做出这样的决定，我认为人们应该等到 30 岁。
He got very adamant and angry that he was going to do it whether it helped him or not, and I was like fine.
他变得非常坚定和愤怒，无论这对他有没有帮助，他都会这么做，而我很好。
And at a point, I let it go.
在某个时刻，我放弃了它。
David and Brandon agreed to meet at 2:00 AM.
David 和 Brandon 同意在凌晨 2:00 见面。
But when the time rolled around, David blew it off.
但当时间一到，大卫就放弃了。
And then he stopped responding to Brandon's calls.
然后他就不再接布兰登的电话了。
At 4:30 AM, David was awoken by a police officer pointing a rifle at him.
凌晨 4 点 30 分，大卫被一名警察用步枪指着他吵醒。
He was asleep next to a girl he'd met in Saint Paul.
他睡在一个他在圣保罗认识的女孩旁边。
It was around an hour before he was going to the airport to fly back to Austin.
距离他要去机场飞回奥斯汀还有大约一个小时。
Since then, both Brad and David have pled guilty to the possession of unregistered firearms, which is what the law calls molotov cocktails.
从那时起，布拉德和大卫都承认持有未经注册的枪支，也就是法律上所说的燃烧弹。
A few months later, Brandon is sitting at his desk reading emails.
几个月后，布兰登坐在办公桌前阅读电子邮件。
Brandon, was curious how much money the FBI compensated you for being a sewer rat.
布兰登，很好奇联邦调查局因为你是下水道老鼠而补偿了你多少钱。
Why didn't you advise and guide your friends towards nonviolence?
你为什么不建议和引导你的朋友走向非暴力？
Why not?
为什么不呢？
Because you must be a brainless, heartless FBI whore.
因为你一定是个没脑子、没心没肺的联邦调查局妓女。
Congratulations on your brilliant career of whoring your soul.
祝贺你在嫖宿灵魂方面取得了辉煌的职业生涯。
I'm kind of envious.
我有点羡慕啊
Does it pay well to be a whore?
做妓女收入高吗？
It didn't pay well actually, Brandon got a total of $12,750 from the FBI, plus $3,028 in expenses.
实际上报酬并不高，布兰登从 FBI 总共得到了 12,750 美元，外加 3,028 美元的开支。
As a result of his informing, he's been skewered in the alternative press and shunned by many friends.
由于他的举报，他受到了另类媒体的攻击，并被许多朋友避开。
He's gotten death threats.
他收到了死亡威胁。
You feel 100% certain that law enforcement was right way to go with this?
您认为 100% 确定执法部门处理此事的方式是正确的吗？
No, I don't feel 100% certain of anything.
不，我对任何事情都没有 100% 的把握。
It depends on you ask me.
这取决于你问我。
You know?
你知道？
It depends when you ask.
这取决于你什么时候问。
Sometimes I feel bad enough for them that I don't go to sleep.
有时我为他们感到难过，以至于我不去睡觉。
They made their choices.
他们做出了自己的选择。
I made my choices, and we both have things to live with.
我做出了我的选择，我们都有共同的生活。
Here's what Brandon has to live with, as I see it.
在我看来，这就是布兰登必须忍受的事情。
In one of the first emails he wrote to the FBI after meeting Brad and David.
在与布拉德和大卫会面后，他写给联邦调查局的第一封电子邮件中。
He worried that they might end up as quote "some strange form of collateral damage."
他担心它们最终可能会导致“某种奇怪形式的附带损害”。
I don't think this means Brandon somehow encouraged Brad and David to make the molotov cocktails, as David's lawyer argued, and as activists all over the country now believe.
我不认为这意味着布兰登以某种方式鼓励布拉德和大卫制作燃烧弹，正如大卫的律师所说的那样，也正如全国各地的活动人士现在所相信的那样。
But I do think that if Brad and David had met Brandon as he actually was, not in character, not playing a role for the FBI, but as an older activist and a natural leader who was profoundly regretful over the extremism of his past views.
但我确实认为，如果布拉德和大卫遇到了布兰登，他实际上不是在性格上，不是在联邦调查局扮演一个角色，而是作为一个年长的活动家和一个天生的领导者，对他过去观点的极端主义深感遗憾。
He would have stopped them from making molotov cocktails.
他会阻止他们制作燃烧弹。
And Brad and David wouldn't be facing years in prison.
布拉德和大卫不会面临多年的监禁。
Michael May in Austin Texas.
迈克尔·梅在德克萨斯州奥斯汀。
Brad Crowder was sentenced to two years in prison for making and possessing molotov cocktails at the Republican National Convention.
布拉德·克劳德因在共和党全国代表大会上制造和持有燃烧弹而被判处两年监禁。
David McKay was just sentenced this week.
大卫·麦凯本周刚刚被判刑。
Four years.
四年了。
[MUSIC - "I SPY (FOR THE FBI) BY JAMO THOMAS]
[音乐 - “我（为联邦调查局）进行间谍活动，作者：JAMO THOMAS]
Act Three.
第三幕。
"If the Shoe Fits."
“如果鞋子合脚的话。”
Well, we end our program today with this story of somebody trying not to be a turn coat.
好吧，我们今天以一个努力不成为背叛者的故事来结束我们的节目。
From Etgar Keret, who lives in Israel.
来自居住在以色列的 Etgar Keret。
I'm going to a mention that so you don't wonder, why is this story happening in Israel?
我要提一下这一点，这样你就不会想知道为什么这个故事会发生在以色列？
It's read for us by actor Matt Malloy.
演员马特·马洛伊为我们朗读。
On Holocaust Commemoration Day, our teacher Sarah took us on the number 57 bus to the Vohlin Memorial Museum and I felt really important.
在大屠杀纪念日，我们的老师莎拉带我们乘坐57路巴士前往沃林纪念博物馆，我感到非常重要。
All the kids in my class had families that came from Iraq except me and my cousin, and one other kid, Druckman.
除了我和我的表弟以及另一个孩子德鲁克曼之外，我班上所有的孩子都有来自伊拉克的家庭。
And I was the only one whose grandfather died in the Holocaust.
我是唯一一个祖父在大屠杀中丧生的人。
The Vohlin Memorial Museum is a really fancy building, all covered in expensive-looking black marble.
沃林纪念博物馆是一座非常华丽的建筑，全部覆盖着看起来昂贵的黑色大理石。
It had a lot of sad pictures in black and white, and lists of people and countries and victims.
里面有很多悲伤的黑白照片，还有人物、国家和受害者的名单。
We paired up and walk along the wall from one picture to the next.
我们两人一组，沿着墙从一张照片走到另一张照片。
And the teacher said not to touch, but I did.
老师说不许碰，但我还是碰了。
I touched one of them.
我触摸了其中的一个。
A cardboard photograph of a pale and skinny man who was crying and holding a sandwich.
一张纸板照片上是一个苍白、瘦弱的男人，他手里拿着一个三明治，正在哭泣。
The tears running down his cheeks were like the stripes on an asphalt street.
泪水从他的脸颊上流下来，就像柏油路上的条纹一样。
And Orit Salem, the girl I was paired up with, said she'd tell the teacher on me.
与我配对的女孩奥里特·塞勒姆 (Orit Salem) 说她会把我的事告诉老师。
I said as far as I was concerned, she could tell everyone, even the principal.
我说就我而言，她可以告诉所有人，甚至校长。
I didn't care.
我不在乎。
That was my grandfather.
那是我的祖父。
And I could touch whatever I wanted.
我可以触摸任何我想要的东西。
After the pictures, they took us into a big hall and showed us a movie about little kids being loaded onto a truck.
拍完照后，他们带我们走进一个大厅，给我们看了一部关于小孩子被装上卡车的电影。
They all choked on gas in the end.
最后他们都被煤气窒息了。
After that this skinny old guy came up on stage and told us how the Nazis were scum and murderers.
之后这个瘦老头就上台告诉我们纳粹是怎样的败类和杀人犯。
And how I got back at them, and even strangled a soldier to death with his bare hands.
我如何反击他们，甚至徒手将一名士兵勒死。
Jerabi, who was sitting next to me, said the old man was lying.
坐在我旁边的杰拉比说那个老人在撒谎。
And from the looks of him, there wasn't a soldier in the world he could beat up.
而且从他的样子来看，这个世界上没有一个士兵是他能打败的。
But I looked into the old man's eyes and I believed him.
但我看着老人的眼睛，我相信了他。
There were so much anger in them that all the attacks of all the hot shot punks in the world seem like small change by comparison.
他们的愤怒如此之大，相比之下，世界上所有炙手可热的朋克的所有攻击都显得微不足道。
In the end, after he was finished telling us about what he'd done in the Holocaust, the old man said that everything we'd heard was important.
最后，当他向我们讲述完他在大屠杀中所做的事情后，老人说我们听到的一切都很重要。
Not just for the past, but for what was happening now, too.
不仅是为了过去，也是为了现在正在发生的事情。
Because the Germans were still living, and they still had a country.
因为德国人还活着，他们还有国家。
The old man said he'd never forgive them and he hoped we wouldn't either.
老人说他永远不会原谅他们，他希望我们也不会。
And that we should never, ever go visit their country, God forbid.
我们永远不应该去访问他们的国家，上帝禁止。
Because when he and his parents had arrived in Germany 50 years ago, everything looked really nice.
因为50年前，当他和父母抵达德国时，一切看起来都非常美好。
And it ended in hell.
而这一切都以地狱告终。
People have short memories sometimes, he says.
他说，人们有时记忆力很差。
Especially for bad things.
尤其是对于不好的事情。
They prefer to forget, but don't you forget.
他们宁愿忘记，但你不要忘记。
Every time you see a German, remember what I told you.
每次你见到德国人时，请记住我告诉你的话。
And every time you see anything that was made in Germany, even if it's a TV, always remember that the picture tube and the other parts underneath the pretty wrapping were made out of the bones, and skin, and flesh of dead Jews.
每当你看到德国制造的任何东西时，即使是电视，也要记住显像管和漂亮包装下的其他部件是用死去的犹太人的骨头、皮肤和肉制成的。
On our way out, Jerabi said again and if that old man had strangled so much as a cucumber, he'd eat his t-shirt.
在我们出去的路上，杰拉比又说了一遍，如果那个老人勒死了一根黄瓜，他就会吃掉他的T恤。
And I thought it was lucky our fridge was made in Israel, 'cause who needs trouble?
我认为幸运的是我们的冰箱是在以色列制造的，因为谁需要麻烦呢？
Two weeks later, my parents came back from abroad and brought me a pair of sneakers.
两周后，我的父母从国外回来，给我带来了一双运动鞋。
My older brother told my mother that's what I wanted.
我哥哥告诉我妈妈这就是我想要的。
And she bought the best ones.
她买了最好的。
Mom smiled when she handed them to me.
妈妈把它们递给我时微笑着。
She was sure I didn't know what was in the bag.
她确信我不知道袋子里装的是什么。
But I could tell right away by the Adidas logo.
但我一眼就能看出阿迪达斯的标志。
I took the shoe box out of the bag and said thank you.
我从包里拿出鞋盒说了声谢谢。
The box was rectangular.
盒子是长方形的。
Like a coffin.
就像棺材一样。
And inside it lay two white shoes with three blue stripes on them.
里面放着两只白色的鞋子，上面有三道蓝色条纹。
And on the side it said Adidas Rom.
侧面写着阿迪达斯 Rom。
I didn't have to open the box to know that.
我不用打开盒子就知道这一点。
Let's try them on, Mom said, pulling the paper out.
我们来试穿一下吧，妈妈边说边把纸拿出来。
See if they fit.
看看他们是否合适。
She was smiling the whole time.
她自始至终都在微笑。
She didn't realize what was happening.
她没有意识到发生了什么事。
They're from Germany, you know?, I told her and squeezed her hand hard.
他们来自德国，你知道吗？”我告诉她，并用力握了握她的手。
Of course I know, Mom smiled, Adidas is the best make the world.
我当然知道，妈妈笑了，阿迪达斯是世界上最好的。
Grandpa was from Germany, too, I tried hinting.
我试图暗示，爷爷也来自德国。
Grandpa was from Poland, Mom corrected me.
爷爷来自波兰，妈妈纠正了我。
She grew sad for a moment.
她有一瞬间变得悲伤。
But it passed right away, and she put one of the shoes on my foot and started lacing it up.
但它很快就过去了，她把其中一只鞋子放在我的脚上，并开始系鞋带。
I didn't say anything.
我什么也没说。
I knew by then it was no use.
那时我就知道这是没有用的。
Mom was clueless.
妈妈一头雾水。
She never been to the Vohlin Memorial Museum.
她从未去过沃林纪念博物馆。
Nobody had ever explained it to her.
从来没有人向她解释过。
And for her, shoes were just shoes.
对于她来说，鞋子只是鞋子。
And Germany was really Poland.
德国实际上就是波兰。
So I let her put them on my feet and I didn't say anything.
所以我让她把它们放在我的脚上，我什么也没说。
There was no point in telling her.
告诉她没有任何意义。
It would just make her sadder.
这只会让她更加难过。
After I said thank you one more time and gave her a kiss on the cheek, I said I was going out to play.
我再次说了声谢谢并在她脸颊上亲了一下后，我说我要出去玩。
Watch it, eh?
留意一下，嗯？
Dad kidded from his armchair in the living room.
爸爸坐在客厅的扶手椅上开玩笑。
Don't you go wearing down the soles in a single afternoon.
你别在一个下午就把鞋底磨坏了。
I took another look at the pale leather shoes on my feet.
我又看了一眼脚上的浅色皮鞋。
And thought back about all the things the old man who strangled the soldier said we should remember.
回想起勒死士兵的老人说我们应该记住的所有事情。
I touched the Adidas stripes again, and remembered my Grandpa in the cardboard photograph.
我再次触摸阿迪达斯的条纹，想起了纸板照片中的爷爷。
Are the shoes comfortable?
鞋子舒服吗？
Mom asked.
妈妈问。
Of course they're comfortable, my brother answered instead of me.
当然很舒服，我哥哥代替我回答。
Those shoes aren't just some cheap local brand.
这些鞋子不仅仅是一些廉价的本地品牌。
They're the very same shoe that Pele used to wear.
这双鞋和贝利曾经穿的鞋一模一样。
I tiptoed slowly towards the door, trying to put as little weight on them as possible.
我蹑手蹑脚地慢慢走向门口，尽量减轻他们的负担。
I kept walking that way towards Ben Gurion Park.
我继续朝本古里安公园走去。
Outside, the kids from Borouchoff Elementary were forming three soccer teams-- Holland, Argentina, and Brazil.
外面，博鲁霍夫小学的孩子们正在组建三支足球队——荷兰队、阿根廷队和巴西队。
The Holland group was one player short, so they agreed to let me join even though they usually never took anyone who didn't go to Borouchoff.
荷兰队缺少一名球员，所以他们同意让我加入，尽管他们通常不会接受不去博鲁霍夫的人。
When the game started, I still remembered to be careful not to kick with a tip, so I wouldn't hurt Grandpa.
比赛开始的时候，我还记得小心不要用尖头踢，这样才不会伤到爷爷。
But as it continued, I forgot.
但随着事情的继续，我忘记了。
Just like the old man at the Vohlin Memorial Museum said people do.
就像沃林纪念博物馆的老人说的那样。
And I even scored the tiebreaker with a volley kick.
我什至用一脚凌空踢进了决胜局。
After the game was over, I remembered and looked down at them.
比赛结束后，我想起来了，低头看着他们。
They were so comfortable all of a sudden.
他们一下子就舒服了。
And springier, too.
而且更有弹性。
Much more than they'd seemed when they were still in the box.
比它们还在盒子里时看起来要多得多。
What a volley that was, eh?
那是多么精彩的一击，嗯？
I'm reminded Grandpa on our way home.
回家路上我想起了爷爷。
The goalie didn't even know what hit him.
守门员甚至不知道是什么击中了他。
Grandpa didn't say anything.
爷爷什么也没说。
But from the bounce in my step, I could tell he was happy, too.
但从我脚步的轻快，我可以看出他也很高兴。
Matt Malloy, reading the story "Shoes" from Etgar Keret's collection of short fiction that's titled, The Bus Driver Who Wanted to be God, and Other Stories.
马特·马洛伊（Matt Malloy）正在阅读埃特加·凯雷特（Etgar Keret）短篇小说集《想成为上帝的公交车司机和其他故事》中的故事“鞋子”。
Our program is produced today by Sarah Keonig and me.
今天我们的节目是由莎拉·科尼格和我制作的。
With Alex Blumberg.
与亚历克斯·布隆伯格。
Jane Geltes, publicist.
简·格尔茨，公关人员。
[UNINTELLIGIBLE] and Nancy Updike.
[无法理解] 和南希·厄普代克。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Production help from Andy Dixon.
安迪·迪克森 (Andy Dixon) 提供制作帮助。
Seth Lind is our production manager.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的生产经理。
Music help by Jessica Hopper.
杰西卡·霍珀的音乐帮助。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International WBEZ Management oversight for our program by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia, who was against WBEZ's proposed relocation for him and his family.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台 WBEZ 管理层负责监督我们的节目，我们的老板 Torey Malatia 先生反对 WBEZ 为他和他的家人搬迁的提议。
[FUNDING CREDITS] Brandon Darby I don't, I don't, I don't want the Ayatollah buying me any houses.
[资金来源] Brandon Darby 我不，我不，我不想阿亚图拉给我买任何房子。
That's OK.
没关系。
I'd rather be homeless.
我宁愿无家可归。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories from This American Life.
下周我们将带来《美国生活》的更多故事。
[MUSIC] This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
[音乐] 《This American Life》 This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。