380: No Map - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #380 | May 15, 2009 380: No Map Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 380 集 | 2009 年 5 月 15 日 380：无地图 注意：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass A couple years ago I interviewed this cop about something that happened to him when he was still a rookie on the force.
序言 Ira Glass 几年前，我采访了这位警察，讲述了他还是一名警队新人时发生在他身上的事情。
He and his partner had gotten called out to this suburban house to do something about this squirrel that was running around the attic of the house.
他和他的搭档被叫到这栋郊区的房子里，对这只在房子阁楼上跑来跑去的松鼠做点什么。
And by the time they were done an hour after that, they had accidentally injured the owner of the house.
一个小时后，当他们完成任务时，他们不小心伤到了房子的主人。
The squirrel had not only evaded capture, he had run through a fireplace, setting himself on fire and then setting a couch on fire.
松鼠不仅逃脱了抓捕，还跑进了壁炉，点燃了自己，然后又点燃了一张沙发。
The house was full of smoke.
房子里充满了烟雾。
It was a fiasco.
这是一场惨败。
And just recently, it occurred to me, why have we never had that guy back on the show?
就在最近，我突然想到，为什么我们再也没有让那个人回到节目中？
Something else interesting must have happened to him in his years on the force.
在他当兵的这些年里，一定还发生过其他有趣的事情。
It is August.
现在是八月。
I remember it being really hot and thunderstorming.
我记得当时天气非常热，而且还雷雨交加。
And the sun had just gone down.
太阳刚刚落山。
And the call came over for auto accident, van overturned, possible injuries at scene.
接到电话称发生车祸，货车翻车，现场可能有人受伤。
So I arrive, there's a lot of people in the street, there are some fire trucks there already, and there's a van on its side.
当我到达时，街上有很多人，那里已经有一些消防车，旁边还有一辆货车。
And standing next to the van is a man, late 50s, kind of disheveled.
货车旁边站着一个五十多岁的男人，衣冠不整。
I guess he just rolled around in a van.
我猜他只是在一辆货车里滚来滚去。
And then standing next to the man at his hip and holding his hand was a chimpanzee.
然后站在那个男人旁边，握着他的手的是一只黑猩猩。
Three feet, four feet tall, dressed in a red sweatshirt and jeans and shoes like a person.
三英尺四英尺高，穿着红色运动衫和牛仔裤和鞋子，就像一个人。
And they're standing there and being yelled at by the homeowner whose lawn the van came to rest on.
他们站在那里，被货车停在其草坪上的房主大喊大叫。
They had knocked over fire hydrants.
他们打翻了消防栓。
They had damaged his lawn and some trees.
他们损坏了他的草坪和一些树木。
So it was a little bit chaotic scene-- lots of lights, lots of people.
所以这是一个有点混乱的场景——很多灯，很多人。
And I thought this was going to be pretty good show.
我认为这将是一场非常精彩的表演。
After ascertaining that nobody was injured at the scene, the cop, whose name is [?
在确定现场无人受伤后，这名警察的名字是[？
Sean, ?] goes over to the officer who's taken charge of this situation and listens to him interviewing the driver of the van.
肖恩，？]走到负责此事的警官身边，听他采访货车司机。
It seems that the driver of the van has this business where he dress the chimp up and goes out to birthday parties and Bar Mitzvahs and the chimp performs.
货车司机似乎有这样的生意，他给黑猩猩打扮一番，然后出去参加生日聚会、成人礼和黑猩猩表演。
And they had been coming home from a gig just like that.
他们就这样结束演出回家。
The man's driving, the chimp's in the passenger seat, wearing a seat belt, just like a passenger.
男人在开车，黑猩猩坐在乘客座位上，系着安全带，就像乘客一样。
And there's lightning and thunder from these storms and the chimpanzee gets a little rattled.
这些暴风雨会发出闪电和雷声，黑猩猩会感到有点惊慌。
And then they have a close lightning strike.
然后他们就遭遇了近距离的雷击。
Crack.
裂缝。
Big, loud boom.
巨大而响亮的轰鸣声。
And the chimpanzee gets very frightened and comes out of the seat, grabs the driver and yanks him out of the driver's seat and just throws him to the back of the van.
黑猩猩非常害怕，从座位上爬出来，抓住司机，把他从驾驶座上拉出来，然后把他扔到货车后面。
[UNINTELLIGIBLE] Cop Yeah.
[无法辨认]警察 是的。
So then he took the wheel.
于是他就掌管了方向盘。
The chimpanzee was standing between the two seats and is taking the wheel.
黑猩猩站在两个座位之间，正在驾驶。
The man said he was doing really well and then he lost control of the van.
该男子说他做得很好，然后他失去了对货车的控制。
And I'm like, the chimpanzee lost control of the van?
我想，黑猩猩失去了对货车的控制？
At what point was the chimpanzee really in charge of this thing?
黑猩猩在什么时候真正负责这件事？
But though he described was, "listen, it's not my fault.
但尽管他描述的是，“听着，这不是我的错。
The chimpanzee had the accident."
黑猩猩出了事故。”
So the officer in charge explains to this guy that from the point of view of the law, he was the driver, not the chimp.
于是负责人向这个家伙解释说，从法律的角度来看，他是司机，而不是黑猩猩。
And he's the one who is going to get charged and the guy's not too happy about that.
他就是那个将被指控的人，而那家伙对此并不太高兴。
He leaves the chimp with [?
他给黑猩猩留下了[？
Sean, ?] holding [?
肖恩，？] 拿着 [？
Sean's ?] hand, and he walks over to the squad car to sit for a minute inside, just to rest.
肖恩？]的手，然后他走到警车旁，在里面坐了一分钟，只是为了休息。
And the officer in charge notices the guy seems sort of unsteady on his feet.
负责的警官注意到这个人似乎站不稳。
And he tells the guy he wants to bring him into the station for a breathalyzer test.
他告诉那个人他想带他去车站进行酒精测试。
This all happened 20 years ago.
这一切都发生在20年前。
They couldn't do those kinds of things right there on the side of the road.
他们不能在路边做这种事。
And the guy starts to raise his voice a little.
那家伙开始提高声音。
And the officer in charge just a little testy.
负责的官员有点暴躁。
It starts to get a little personal between them.
他们之间开始变得有些私人化。
The officer informs him that no, he is under arrest until they do this alcohol test.
警官告诉他，不，在他们进行酒精测试之前，他将被逮捕。
And the guy gets even hotter.
那家伙变得更热了。
Then he raises his voice and he gets upset and he starts to yell.
然后他提高了声音，他变得心烦意乱，开始大喊大叫。
"This is [BLEEP].
“这是[BLEEP]。
I'm not going to do this.
我不会这样做。
My chimpanzee could be hurt." Blah blah blah.
我的黑猩猩可能会受伤。”巴拉巴拉巴拉。
So everybody turns and faces him and the chimpanzee, now his master, is upset.
于是每个人都转身面对他，现在他的主人黑猩猩很不高兴。
And he's being threatened.
而且他还受到威胁。
And from the back of the crowd, somebody goes, "A chimpanzee can tear a man apart with his bare hands," just from out of the crowd.
人群后面有人说：“黑猩猩可以徒手撕碎一个人”，只是从人群中出来。
What?
什么？
Cop Yeah.
警察 是的。
"A chimpanzee.
“一只黑猩猩。
Look out for the chimpanzee.
留意黑猩猩。
It could tear a man apart with its bare hands."
它可以徒手将一个人撕裂。”
Very quickly, the chimpanzee pulls his hand out from my hand and walks pretty forcefully through some people to the back of the car and stands-- squats, rather-- right in front of his owner in the back of the police car with the door open.
很快，黑猩猩从我手里抽出了手，用力穿过人群，走到车后，然后站在——更确切地说是蹲下——在警车后座上，车门开着，就在它的主人面前。
And we ask the guy, what's the best way to secure him and what can you tell him to make sure that he's OK with this?
我们问这个人，保护他的最佳方法是什么？你能告诉他什么来确保他对此表示同意？
And the guy's like, "look, nothing.
那家伙就像，“看，什么也没有。
I have never been away from this animal.
我从未离开过这种动物。
We've never really been separated.
我们从来没有真正分开过。
He's not going to react well to this.
他对此不会有很好的反应。
He could get very excited." And now everybody but myself and the other cop are walking backwards with an eye on the chimp.
他可能会变得非常兴奋。”现在，除了我和另一名警察之外，每个人都在向后走，眼睛盯着黑猩猩。
When they put the handcuffs on, he was saying, "She is not going to like that.
当他们戴上手铐时，他说：“她不会喜欢这样的。
She is not going to like that." And I think the tone of his voice, the chimpanzee started to really not like that.
她不会喜欢那样的。”我认为黑猩猩开始真的不喜欢他的语气。
And he turned to display to the chimpanzee that he was in handcuffs.
他转身向黑猩猩表明他戴着手铐。
So at this point, the officer in charge asks [?
那么此时，负责人问道【？
Sean ?] to get emergency services on the radio.
肖恩？] 通过无线电获取紧急服务。
They are the ones who have been trained to get an animal under control.
他们接受过控制动物的训练。
And if all else fails, they have a tranquilizer gun.
如果一切都失败了，他们还有一把镇静剂枪。
So I changed radio frequencies, get them on the air.
所以我改变了无线电频率，让它们播出。
"Yeah, can you respond up here?" And they're like, "Well, what kind of job is it?" They have all sorts of different tools in the truck and they need to know what to be prepared for too.
“是啊，你能在这里回复一下吗？”他们会说，“嗯，这是什么样的工作？”他们的卡车上有各种不同的工具，他们也需要知道要准备什么。
And I said, "Well, we have a possible DWI, auto accident, and we need you to secure a chimpanzee." And there's just dead silence.
我说：“好吧，我们可能会发生酒后驾驶、车祸，我们需要你保护一只黑猩猩。”周围一片死寂。
And then they just go, no. Because they know me and I think I'm goofing around with them.
然后他们就走了，不。因为他们认识我，而我觉得我在和他们鬼混。
He tries again on a land line-- this is before the age of cell phones-- and they hang up again.
他再次尝试拨打固定电话——这是在手机时代之前——但电话又挂断了。
He has his dispatcher try from the police station's phone.
他让调度员尝试通过警察局的电话。
Still no. So now Sean and the other officers on the scene are in this situation where they really have no map at all for what they're supposed to do.
还是不行。所以现在肖恩和现场的其他警官就处于这种情况，他们真的完全没有地图来指导他们应该做什么。
It's like a lot of police work, Sean says.
肖恩说，这就像很多警察工作一样。
You just make it up you go along.
你只要补上就可以了。
You have to.
你必须这样做。
And now the guy's in handcuffs in the back of the squad car.
现在那家伙被戴上手铐放在警车后座上。
And the chimpanzee is angry now and kind of bouncing around and shrieking, like chimpanzees-- like Daktari, if you remember the Daktari-- shrieking and running back and forth.
黑猩猩现在生气了，像黑猩猩一样跳来跳去，尖叫着，就像达克塔里人，如果你还记得达克塔里人的话——尖叫着来回奔跑。
And people are running away from the chimpanzee.
人们正在逃离黑猩猩。
And I go to the cop, "Look, they're not coming.
我去找警察，“看，他们不会来了。
And you what are you going to do, set this chimp loose on this village?" It could happen.
那么你打算怎么做，把这只黑猩猩放到这个村子里去？”这可能会发生。
Something could happen.
可能会发生一些事情。
We could end up having to shoot a chimpanzee dressed in a sweatshirt and jeans with shoes on-- a pet-- in a village in front of a hundred people because we think that this guy may have had something to drink.
我们最终可能不得不在村庄里当着一百个人的面射杀一只穿着运动衫和牛仔裤、穿着鞋子的黑猩猩——一只宠物，因为我们认为这个家伙可能喝了东西。
It's a lose-lose, no matter what happens.
无论发生什么，这都是双输。
So he was reluctant because I think he had gotten into a little bit personally with the driver.
所以他很不情愿，因为我认为他已经和司机发生了一些私事。
You know, "You're under arrest and I say you're under arrest." So in the interest of justice and maintaining order, we both kind of decided we're going to un-arrest the guy.
你知道，“你被捕了，我说你被捕了。”因此，为了正义和维持秩序，我们都决定要取消逮捕这个人。
Poof, you're un-arrested.
噗，你还没有被捕。
So they uncuffred the guy and he calms the chimpanzee down.
于是他们解开了那家伙的手铐，他让黑猩猩平静下来。
And they're putting him into a car that's going to take him home.
他们把他送进一辆车，准备带他回家。
At which point the chimpanzee goes back to the other officer's car, who he didn't like.
这时，黑猩猩回到了另一名他不喜欢的警官的车上。
Opens the door, climbs inside.
打开门，爬了进去。
Underneath his jeans, he has a diaper on.
他的牛仔裤下面穿着尿布。
So he takes his diaper off inside the back of the police car where his owner had been.
于是，他在主人所在的警车后座上脱下了尿布。
And he smears the diaper all over the inside of the car in full view of the crowd.
他当着众人的面把尿布弄得车内到处都是。
And it's like purposeful salute from this chimpanzee to the cop.
这就像这只黑猩猩有目的地向警察致敬。
The cop is furious but can do nothing.
警察很愤怒，但也无能为力。
He's un-arrested somebody that he's arrested.
他是一个未被逮捕的人，但他却被逮捕了。
That never happens.
那永远不会发生。
A chimpanzee got the last word on a cop.
一只黑猩猩对警察说了最后一句话。
That never happens.
那永远不会发生。
The world is upside down.
世界颠倒了。
But [?
但 [？
Sean ?] says, what are you going to do?
肖恩？]说，你要做什么？
Police work is improvisation.
警察的工作是即兴发挥。
You're put in situations.
你陷入了困境。
You have to do something.
你必须做点什么。
You're the police.
你是警察。
You can't just go home.
你不能就这样回家。
The people, it's what they're paying you for.
人民，这就是他们付钱给你的原因。
So you make it up as you're going along, mostly.
所以，大部分情况下，你都是边走边补的。
Well, today on our show, situations where capable people find themselves with no map, no precedents they can rely on, no idea how to handle what it is that they're supposed to handle.
好吧，今天在我们的节目中，有能力的人发现自己没有地图，没有可以依赖的先例，不知道如何处理他们应该处理的事情。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life distributed by Public Radio International.
这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
Our show today in two acts-- one in the work world, one at home.
我们今天的演出分两幕——一场在工作场所，一场在家里。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, The Mod Squad.
第一幕，模组小队。
We're in the middle of a historic moment where millions of people are losing their homes and the numbers continue to rise.
我们正处于一个历史性时刻，数百万人正在失去家园，而且数字还在继续上升。
Last month, there were 342,038 foreclosure filings, which is the highest that it's been so far in this recession.
上个月，共有 342,038 起丧失抵押品赎回权申请，这是本次经济衰退以来的最高数字。
And this has left bankers in this situation that they never imagined was going to happen, where they are not entirely clear what to do, and struggling along without any kind of map to handle this situation.
这让银行家陷入了他们从未想象过的情况，他们不完全清楚该怎么做，并且在没有任何地图来处理这种情况的情况下苦苦挣扎。
They are apparently foreclosing on a lot more people than they need to.
他们显然取消了比他们需要的更多的人的赎回权。
This next number I'm going to tell you is kind of astounding.
我要告诉你的下一个数字有点令人震惊。
Some economists, including mainstream academics and Wall Street guys like a chief economist at Moody's, the Wall Street ratings agency, estimate that half-- yes, half-- of all the six million possible foreclosures that we're facing over the next three years don't need to happen.
一些经济学家，包括主流学者和华尔街人士，例如华尔街评级机构穆迪的首席经济学家，估计未来三年我们面临的 600 万起可能丧失抵押品赎回权的案件中，有一半——是的，一半——不需要发生。
That even the banks would be better off, they would make more money, they would come out richer if they didn't foreclose.
如果他们不取消抵押品赎回权，即使是银行也会过得更好，他们会赚更多的钱，他们会变得更富有。
Reporter Chris Arnold explains how this could possibly be.
记者克里斯·阿诺德解释了这怎么可能。
To illustrate the paradox of this crisis, here's this couple.
为了说明这场危机的悖论，下面是这对夫妇。
I met them at a foreclosure prevention event.
我在一次止赎预防活动中认识了他们。
The foreclosure mess is now so huge that these events are happening all over the country.
现在取消抵押品赎回权的混乱局面如此严重，以至于这些事件正在全国各地发生。
My name is Alex [?
我的名字是亚历克斯[?
Alicea.
艾丽西娅.
?] I am a truck driver for [UNINTELLIGIBLE] Slab and Marble Company in Bridgeport.
？] 我是布里奇波特[无法辨认]板坯和大理石公司的卡车司机。
And I don't know what to do.
我不知道该怎么办。
This is my last alternative, coming here.
这是我最后的选择，来到这里。
Every eight seconds, another house gets foreclosed in the US.
在美国，每八秒就会有另一所房屋被取消赎回权。
So banks and nonprofits hold big events like this.
所以银行和非营利组织会举办这样的大型活动。
This one was at a hotel in Connecticut.
这是在康涅狄格州的一家酒店。
Thousands of people showed up.
数千人出现。
There's about a hundred housing counselors with laptop computers spread out across this big convention hall at little tables.
大约有一百名住房顾问，他们拿着笔记本电脑，分布在这个大会议厅的小桌子旁。
All right, what I'm going to do right now, Alex, is that I'm going to pull your credit report.
好吧，亚历克斯，我现在要做的是提取你的信用报告。
Alex isn't one of these people who bought a house that he couldn't afford.
亚历克斯不是那些买不起房子的人之一。
He says he's had steady work as a truck driver for 15 years, but he refinanced a couple of times, pulled out some money to fix up the house and pay some bills.
他说，他作为一名卡车司机已经稳定工作了 15 年，但他进行了几次再融资，拿出了一些钱来修缮房子并支付一些账单。
Then his wife lost her job and now they can't afford their monthly payments.
然后他的妻子失业了，现在他们无力承担每月的付款。
On top of that, their house has lost value.
最重要的是，他们的房子已经失去了价值。
They owe $230,000 on their home loan and their house is only worth 180,000.
他们欠了23万美元的住房贷款，而他们的房子只值18万。
It's not worth staying in the house.
呆在房子里不值得。
If the house is only going to be worth 180 and I'm going to be paying a mortgage of $230,000?
如果房子只值 180 美元而我要支付 23 万美元的抵押贷款怎么办？
Alex is underwater.
亚历克斯在水下。
Sometimes it's called upside down.
有时也称为颠倒。
You hear those terms a lot nowadays and, in fact, you'll hear them again before this story's over.
现在你经常听到这些术语，事实上，在这个故事结束之前你还会再次听到它们。
Somewhere between 15-20% of all homeowners are in the situation.
大约有 15-20% 的房主处于这种情况。
They owe more than their house is worth.
他们所欠的钱比他们的房子的价值还多。
Alex is so stressed out that he's taking medication and having trouble sleeping.
亚历克斯压力太大，他正在服用药物并且睡眠困难。
He's the first person in his family to own a home and now he's about to lose it.
他是家里第一个拥有房屋的人，但现在他即将失去它。
And here's what's so strange.
这就是奇怪的地方。
Alex shouldn't be losing his house.
亚历克斯不应该失去他的房子。
Not out of some doe-eyed feeling of charity, not because hard-working people deserve homes, but for a simple economic reason.
不是出于某种慈善的感觉，也不是因为勤劳的人应该拥有家园，而是出于简单的经济原因。
The bank doesn't want his house-- or whoever owns his mortgage.
银行不想要他的房子——或者任何拥有他抵押贷款的人。
If they take his house back, they'd have to sell it for a big loss.
如果他们收回他的房子，他们就得卖掉它，损失惨重。
It makes much more financial sense to cut him a deal.
与他达成协议更具有经济意义。
And this is the thing-- this is the crazy thing about this whole foreclosure mess.
事情就是这样——这就是整个止赎混乱的疯狂之处。
In a lot of cases, it would be a win-win to cut people deals, that is, to lower their payments and keep them in their homes.
在很多情况下，与人们达成协议，即降低他们的付款并让他们留在家里，这将是双赢的。
Then the lender would keep getting payments and it would have the added benefit of helping the housing market and possibly saving the economy.
然后贷方将继续获得付款，并且还将获得帮助房地产市场并可能拯救经济的额外好处。
But it's not happening.
但这并没有发生。
The system isn't working right.
系统无法正常工作。
In some ways, the system was designed to work on autopilot.
在某些方面，该系统被设计为自动驾驶。
That's Mark Pearce.
那是马克·皮尔斯。
He's North Carolina's deputy banking commissioner.
他是北卡罗来纳州银行业副专员。
And he says it's a huge problem.
他说这是一个大问题。
Mark Pearce has been meeting with executives at all the major banks and mortgage companies.
马克·皮尔斯一直在与所有主要银行和抵押贷款公司的高管会面。
And he's been getting the industry's own data on foreclosures.
他一直在获取行业自己的止赎数据。
And what he's seeing is huge numbers of people in roughly the situation that Alex [?
他所看到的是大量的人处于与亚历克斯[？
Alicea ?] is in.
艾丽西卡？] 进来了。
They're facing foreclosure even though they have jobs and could make some kind of reasonable payments.
尽管他们有工作并且可以支付某种合理的款项，但他们仍面临丧失抵押品赎回权的情况。
And it would be in everyone's interest just to rewrite their terms.
重写他们的条款就符合每个人的利益。
But so far, that's not happening.
但到目前为止，这种情况还没有发生。
Unfortunately, only 5-10% of the people that probably need the help are actually getting something that's going to enable them to stay in their home.
不幸的是，只有 5-10% 可能需要帮助的人实际上得到了能够让他们留在家中的东西。
The other 90-95% of homeowners, the way the system has worked has simply been to push those homeowners into foreclosure.
对于另外 90-95% 的房主，该系统的运作方式只是将这些房主推向丧失抵押品赎回权的境地。
And rather than making any deal at all, the system drives them to lose their home.
该系统根本没有达成任何交易，而是迫使他们失去了家园。
There are so far today almost 3,000 calls-- have come in just to home retention.
今天到目前为止，已经接到近 3,000 个电话，只是为了保留在家里。
It's 3:30.
现在是 3 点 30 分。
Danny Shapone is a manager at a call center run by a company named Ocwen.
丹尼·夏彭 (Danny Shapone) 是一家名为 Ocwen 的公司运营的呼叫中心的经理。
And I came here to find out, basically, what the hell's going on.
我来这里基本上是为了了解到底发生了什么。
Why, when the industry is presented with-- let's be honest-- a rare case of an actual win-win, why is everybody still losing?
老实说，为什么当这个行业出现了罕见的真正双赢的案例时，为什么每个人仍然都在亏损？
Thank you, and the phone call may be recorded.
谢谢，电话可能会被录音。
This isn't an attempt to collect a debt--
这不是试图追债——
This is ground zero of the foreclosure crisis-- right here.
这是止赎危机的归零地——就在这里。
If you own a house and you send in your mortgage payment, it comes to a company like this one.
如果你拥有一套房子，并且缴纳了抵押贷款，那么这笔钱就会流向像这样的公司。
They're called a loan servicer.
他们被称为贷款服务商。
You may not know that.
你可能不知道。
Most people have never heard of a loan servicer.
大多数人从未听说过贷款服务商。
You think you're writing a check and it goes to the bank that loaned the money.
你认为你正在写一张支票，它会流向放贷的银行。
But these days, there's the person who gave you the mortgage, then often, they sold it to somebody else and then they sold it to somebody else.
但现在，有人给你抵押贷款，然后他们经常把它卖给别人，然后又卖给别人。
And so the person who eventually gets your money, you have no idea.
所以最终得到你钱的人，你不知道。
It turns out Ocwen does.
事实证明欧文确实如此。
They're the middleman between you and the person that you owe.
他们是您和欠债人之间的中间人。
They're are also the people that you call when you can't pay.
他们也是您无法付款时致电的人。
Or they'll call you.
或者他们会给你打电话。
They're a debt collector
他们是收债人
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Chris Arnold It's a big room-- lots of cubicles, call center workers with headsets.
[西班牙语]克里斯·阿诺德 这是一个很大的房间——有很多小隔间，呼叫中心工作人员戴着耳机。
Ocwen's got 300 people taking calls-- twice as many as two years ago.
Ocwen 有 300 人接听电话，是两年前的两倍。
All day, they talk to people who are about to lose their homes.
他们一整天都在与即将失去家园的人们交谈。
It's their job to figure out if it makes sense to modify their loans, lower their payments to avoid a foreclosure.
他们的工作就是弄清楚修改贷款、降低还款额以避免丧失抵押品赎回权是否有意义。
Ocwen agreed to talk to us probably because they're different than a lot of loan servicers in one important way.
欧克文同意与我们交谈可能是因为他们在一个重要方面与许多贷款服务商不同。
When you have trouble with your loan and call Ocwen, they might actually help you out.
当您遇到贷款问题并致电 Ocwen 时，他们实际上可能会帮助您。
They modify a lot of mortgages.
他们修改了很多抵押贷款。
They say when a borrower can't pay, 75% of the time, they work out a deal that keeps them in their homes.
他们说，当借款人无法还款时，75%的情况下，他们会制定一项协议，让借款人留在自己的家中。
In other words, they do loan modifications for three times as many people as they are foreclosing on.
换句话说，他们对贷款进行修改的人数是取消抵押品赎回权的人数的三倍。
Margery Rotundo is a vice president who's in charge of the call center.
Margery Rotundo 是负责呼叫中心的副总裁。
She shows us Ocwen's computer system.
她向我们展示了欧克文的计算机系统。
This is where they crunch the numbers that allow them to be nice to people.
这是他们处理数字的地方，使他们能够善待他人。
So here's the other financial information that we gather, your monthly food, electric, cable.
这是我们收集的其他财务信息，您每月的食物、电力、有线电视。
Basically, every borrower is in a database.
基本上，每个借款人都在数据库中。
And when they call asking for a modification, it's as simple as plugging in a few numbers.
当他们打电话要求修改时，只需输入几个数字即可。
Ocwen finds out what their income is and how much they owe.
欧克文查明他们的收入是多少以及欠了多少钱。
And then based on those two things, Ocwen figures what the homeowner can afford to pay.
然后根据这两件事，欧克文计算出房主可以支付的费用。
Then they try to rework the loan terms to match that number.
然后他们尝试修改贷款条款以匹配该数字。
They can reduce the interest, which is sometimes as high as 11 or 12% to as low as 2%.
他们可以降低利息，有时高达 11% 或 12%，低至 2%。
And just like that, this can cut a person's monthly payment in half.
就这样，这可以将一个人的每月付款减少一半。
Sometimes-- and this is more rare, just 16% of the time-- Ocwen even reduces the actual amount that the person owes.
有时——这种情况比较罕见，只有 16% 的情况——Ocwen 甚至会减少该人的实际欠款金额。
Ocwen can do all this because if they did nothing and allowed the foreclosure process to run its course, it would cost even more.
欧文可以做到这一切，因为如果他们什么都不做，任由止赎程序继续进行，成本会更高。
Margery points to a computer screen that actually calculates how much money would be lost in a foreclosure for one of their loans.
马杰里指着一个电脑屏幕，上面可以计算出他们的一笔贷款因取消抵押品赎回权而损失多少钱。
The software knows what the average repair costs are for foreclosed properties in any given neighborhood.
该软件知道任何给定社区中丧失抵押品赎回权的房产的平均维修成本是多少。
It calculates the legal fees.
它计算法律费用。
Your broker fees, once you sell it, is going to be $6,300.
一旦你出售它，你的经纪人费用将为 6,300 美元。
The closing costs, 1,837.
成交成本为 1,837。
What's the repair?
修什么？
Margery Rotundo On the repairs, $2,500 on a single family home.
Margery Rotundo 单户住宅的维修费用为 2,500 美元。
And then the legal fees and costs associated with taking completing a foreclosure, $275 in legal fees and $975 in legal costs.
然后是与完成取消抵押品赎回权相关的法律费用和成本，275 美元的法律费用和 975 美元的法律费用。
The argument for making a deal with the homeowner looks even better when you consider how much value the house has lost.
当你考虑到房子的价值损失了多少时，与房主达成协议的论点看起来就更好了。
That's huge.
那是巨大的。
Say I'm the bank and a borrower owes me $400,000 on a mortgage.
假设我是银行，借款人欠我 40 万美元的抵押贷款。
But it now turns out that the house is only worth half that.
但现在事实证明，房子只值一半。
If I foreclose, I own a house that I can only sell for $200,000.
如果我取消赎回权，我拥有的房子只能以 20 万美元的价格出售。
I've lost at least half my money.
我至少损失了一半的钱。
So even if I cut the homeowner an incredible deal-- I tell them forget about $50,000 or even $100,000 of that 400 that he owes me-- I still come out ahead.
因此，即使我与房主达成了一笔令人难以置信的交易——我告诉他们忘记他欠我的 400 美元中的 50,000 美元甚至 100,000 美元——我仍然领先。
I've lost less money.
我损失的钱少了
It's all there in the numbers on Margery's computer screen.
这一切都在玛格丽电脑屏幕上的数字中。
I hit calculate and in less than one second, it ran the net present values.
我点击计算，不到一秒钟，它就运行了净现值。
When you see Margery's database, it looks very straightforward and mathematical.
当您看到 Margery 的数据库时，它看起来非常简单且数学化。
But out in the call center, it gets very messy and human and complicated pretty fast.
但在呼叫中心，事情很快就会变得非常混乱、人性化和复杂化。
My producer Alex Blumberg and I talked to Danny Shapone and another manager, Doug [?
我的制片人亚历克斯·布隆伯格和我与丹尼·夏彭和另一位经理道格进行了交谈[？
Donegan ?] They say they hear all kinds of heartbreaking stories from people-- a lost job or an unexpected medical cost, victims of a mortgage scam.
多尼根？]他们说他们从人们那里听到了各种令人心碎的故事——失业或意外的医疗费用，抵押贷款诈骗的受害者。
Then there are the non-heartbreaking ones.
然后还有那些不令人心碎的。
We had somebody who had all the money in the world, the ability to pay, sent in their bank statements, we were looking at it.
我们有一个人拥有世界上所有的钱，有能力支付，发送了他们的银行对账单，我们正在查看它。
And I think it was about eight cash withdrawals at the Hard Rock Casino down the road here in a three-day period.
我认为三天内，在路边的硬石赌场大约有八次现金提取。
So this is somebody who was there--
所以这是当时在场的一个人——
Eight times in three days.
三天八次。
So you're there, you lose it, you go to the money machine, you get more, several times in one day.
所以你在那里，你失去了它，你去了赚钱机器，你得到了更多，一天之内好几次。
But you're not, in the back of your head, thinking, I'm going to have trouble making my mortgage payment.
但你不会在心里想，我在支付抵押贷款时会遇到困难。
So ultimately, I think she told us, she's like, "Yeah, I have a gambling problem.
所以最终，我想她告诉我们，她就像是，“是的，我有赌博问题。
I'm going to get help." But that's not the norm.
我要去寻求帮助。”但这不是常态。
Most borrowers aren't like, oh yeah, I have a gambling problem.
大多数借款人都不会说，哦，是的，我有赌博问题。
But it is a prioritization of finances.
但这是财务的优先事项。
We have people that tell us how desperate and how they have no money and no ability.
有人告诉我们他们是多么绝望，他们是如何没有钱、没有能力的。
And we look at their bank statements and they're going to P.F.
我们查看他们的银行对账单，他们将前往 P.F.
Chang's and Ruby Tuesdays and, yeah, Starbucks, 7-11.
Chang's 和 Ruby Tuesdays，还有星巴克，7-11。
Like Danny's mentioned, you go to 7-11 a couple times a week.
就像丹尼提到的那样，你每周都会去 7-11 几次。
That adds up to $50 really fast, but nobody's thinking about that.
加起来很快就达到了 50 美元，但没有人考虑这一点。
They're not changing their habits to adjust to the reduction in income.
他们没有改变习惯来适应收入的减少。
Instead of changing habits, they're changing paying.
他们没有改变习惯，而是改变了支付方式。
Ocwen is just one company, just one loan servicer that's gotten [?
Ocwen 只是一家公司，只是一家获得[？
religion ?] about doing a lot of these workouts.
宗教？]关于进行大量此类锻炼。
The problem is there are dozens of other loan servicers.
问题是还有数十家其他贷款服务机构。
The biggest ones are owned by the big banks-- Wells Fargo, Citigroup, Chase-- the same banks that are getting bailed out by the government right now.
最大的银行属于大型银行——富国银行、花旗集团、大通银行——这些银行目前正在接受政府的救助。
They all have big servicing divisions.
他们都有大型的服务部门。
We sat down with the top executives at Ocwen-- president Ron Faris and executive vice president Paul Koches-- in their modest conference room.
我们在 Ocwen 的高级管理人员——总裁罗恩·法里斯（Ron Faris）和执行副总裁保罗·科奇斯（Paul Koches）——简陋的会议室里坐下来。
They said those bigger companies, the big banks, it turns out they were just not set up to deal with this problem.
他们说那些大公司、大银行，事实证明他们只是没有准备好处理这个问题。
But let me give you a story here-- happened actually right here in this very room.
但让我在这里给你们讲一个故事——实际上就发生在这个房间里。
And unfortunately, I think it's probably not appropriate for me to say the name.
不幸的是，我认为我可能不适合说出这个名字。
But one of the largest servicers and commercial banks in the country came down to visit and sat in this very room.
但该国最大的服务商和商业银行之一前来参观并坐在这个房间里。
And this was probably back in about mid-2007 when, clearly, people were starting to see signs that trouble was ahead.
这可能要追溯到 2007 年中期左右，当时人们显然开始看到麻烦即将来临的迹象。
And what they said to us was, "the reason we're here today is because we know that delinquencies are rising.
他们对我们说的是，“我们今天来这里的原因是因为我们知道拖欠率正在上升。
We know that we're are not going to be able to hire enough experienced collectors.
我们知道我们将无法聘请足够多的经验丰富的收藏家。
And to compound that, we don't have any real loss mitigation type technology.
更糟糕的是，我们没有任何真正的损失缓解技术。
We have just the basic, core servicing technology that collects in a payment each month and sends out a statement.
我们只有基本的核心服务技术，每月收取费用并发出报表。
And it works really well when people make a payment every day.
当人们每天付款时，它的效果非常好。
But we don't have all of that mathematical stuff that you're talking about-- the models or whatever.
但我们没有你所说的所有数学东西——模型或其他什么。
And we're not sure what to do because we're pretty sure that by the time we get it implemented, it'll be too late."
我们不知道该怎么做，因为我们非常确定，当我们实施它时，就为时已晚了。”
So they sat here and were literally like, "we're not sure what to do and we want to talk to you about how could you possibly help us?" That's the kind of situation that we we're dealing with them and I'm talking about one of the largest banks in the world sat here in this room and told us that story.
所以他们坐在这里，字面意思是，“我们不知道该怎么做，我们想和你谈谈你能如何帮助我们？”这就是我们正在处理的情况，我说的是世界上最大的银行之一坐在这个房间里告诉我们这个故事。
Was that surprising for you to hear?
听到这个消息你感到惊讶吗？
Here you are servicing a few hundred thousand loans.
在这里，您正在为数十万笔贷款提供服务。
One of the largest banks in the country that's dealing with millions of loans at a time when this foreclosure crisis is mounting, and they're basically saying, well, if everybody pays on time, everything's great, but we really don't have the systems in place to deal with it if people stop paying.
当这场止赎危机加剧时，该国最大的银行之一正在处理数百万笔贷款，他们基本上是在说，好吧，如果每个人都按时付款，一切都很好，但如果人们停止付款，我们确实没有适当的系统来处理它。
It was eye-opening to hear them actually acknowledge it and say it and say that they have a problem and they weren't sure what to do.
听到他们真正承认并说出这一点并说他们有问题并且不知道该怎么做，真是令人大开眼界。
Ocwen, on the other hand, has been doing this for a while.
另一方面，欧文这样做已经有一段时间了。
For their entire history, they've specialized in so-called distressed debt, which means that they're the industry's problem loan guys.
在他们的整个历史中，他们一直专注于所谓的不良债务，这意味着他们是该行业的问题贷款人。
They were like the messed up loan foreclosure specialists.
他们就像混乱的贷款止赎专家。
Before this crisis, that was a tiny part of the market.
在这场危机之前，这只是市场的一小部分。
Now it is the market.
现在是市场。
Vice president Paul Koches says he was at a meeting in Washington recently.
副总统保罗·科切斯表示，他最近正在华盛顿参加一个会议。
The industry was batting around the notion of a celebrity campaign.
业界正在围绕名人竞选的概念进行争论。
This was their big idea, to get celebrities to go on TV and tell people at risk of foreclosure to call up their lenders and ask about loan workouts.
这是他们的伟大想法，让名人上电视，告诉面临丧失抵押品赎回权风险的人们打电话给贷款人并询问贷款解决方案。
And this is very well attended-- all the usual suspects, all the the big banks-- and there was one person who, on behalf of a very large bank, almost in an excited sort of utterance just blurted, he said, "well, you can't do that.
出席人数非常多——所有通常的嫌疑人，所有大银行——有一个人代表一家非常大的银行，几乎以一种兴奋的语气脱口而出，他说：“好吧，你不能这样做。
If you're successful in drumming up all this interest on the part of the homeowners who need help, we won't be able to handle the volume."
如果你成功地激发了需要帮助的房主的兴趣，我们将无法处理这个数量。”
The level of the market disruption just caught many servicers by surprise.
市场混乱的程度让许多服务商感到意外。
And indeed, we're still getting our systems in order in order to be able to handle the massive levels of defaults.
事实上，我们仍在整理我们的系统，以便能够处理大量的违约情况。
That's Rod Alba, the vice president for mortgage finance at the American Bankers Association, which represents banks around the country.
他就是代表全国银行的美国银行家协会负责抵押贷款融资的副总裁罗德·阿尔巴（Rod Alba）。
I called him up and he basically agrees with all of this, that a lot more loan modifications would make good business sense.
我打电话给他，他基本上同意所有这些，更多的贷款修改将具有良好的商业意义。
But still, two years into this mess, many big loan servicers haven't figured out how to make that happen.
但尽管如此，两年来的混乱局面，许多大型贷款服务机构仍未弄清楚如何实现这一目标。
And there are a lot of other reasons that the big banks, which are also the biggest loan servicers, aren't modifying more mortgages.
同时也是最大贷款服务商的大银行没有修改更多抵押贷款还有很多其他原因。
Because of the way accounting rules work, if they do a loan modification, they basically rewrite the terms of the loan, which means that then they have to admit that they have a problem on their hands.
由于会计规则的运作方式，如果他们进行贷款修改，他们基本上会重写贷款条款，这意味着他们必须承认他们手上有问题。
And if I engage in an actual modification, now I have a distressed assets.
而如果我进行实际改造，现在我就有了不良资产。
And if I have a distressed asset, then that gives me a knock to the capital base.
如果我有不良资产，那么我的资本基础就会受到打击。
That is proving to be one of the problems in this area.
事实证明，这是该领域的问题之一。
It's a problem because the bank has to take a short-term loss.
这是一个问题，因为银行必须承受短期损失。
If they don't modify the loan and put the house in foreclosure, they still take a loss-- and probably a bigger loss-- but it might be as much as a year under accounting rules before that law shows up on their books.
如果他们不修改贷款并将房屋取消抵押品赎回权，他们仍然会遭受损失——而且可能是更大的损失——但根据会计规则，可能需要长达一年的时间，该法律才会出现在他们的账上。
They still lose money, but they don't lose it now.
他们仍然赔钱，但现在已经不赔了。
And it's now that the banks are worried about.
现在银行担心的是。
And then and there are those conflicts of interest.
然后还有那些利益冲突。
Some top people in the mortgage business think those are a big problem.
抵押贷款行业的一些高层人士认为这是一个大问题。
Well, it closely resembles, in some ways, the fox guarding the hen house.
嗯，在某些方面，它很像看守鸡舍的狐狸。
This is Scott Simon.
这是斯科特·西蒙。
He's not the NPR host and he's not a consumer advocate or an anti-bank activist.
他不是 NPR 主持人，也不是消费者权益倡导者或反银行活动人士。
He's a big time money guy.
他是个很有钱的人。
He's a managing director at Pimco.
他是 Pimco 的董事总经理。
It's an investment firm that holds more than $500 billion worth of home mortgages in the form of mortgage backed securities.
这是一家投资公司，以抵押贷款支持证券的形式持有价值超过 5000 亿美元的住房抵押贷款。
Simon manages all of that.
西蒙负责管理这一切。
He says often the banks are servicing loans that are owned by investors like him.
他说，银行经常为像他这样的投资者所拥有的贷款提供服务。
And the banks are supposed to make sure that the investors get paid.
银行应该确保投资者得到报酬。
And they're supposed to decide if a loan modification makes good business sense.
他们应该决定贷款修改是否具有良好的商业意义。
Simon thinks they should be making more loan modifications but he believes that the banks are wearing too many hats and they can't do that job right.
西蒙认为他们应该进行更多的贷款调整，但他认为银行的职责太多，他们无法做好这项工作。
So take an example.
举个例子。
You have a $300,000 house that's only worth $260,000 and it might make all the sense in the world to modify that loan.
你有一套价值 30 万美元的房子，但只值 26 万美元，修改贷款可能是完全有意义的。
It's good for the investor, good for the homeowner.
这对投资者有利，对房主有利。
But it turns out that the bank that services the loan has also lent the person $25,000 on a home equity line of credit.
但事实证明，提供贷款服务的银行还通过房屋净值信贷额度贷给了该人 25,000 美元。
A home equity line of credit is, of course, a second mortgage.
当然，房屋净值信贷额度是第二抵押贷款。
You borrow another, say, $25,000 to redo your kitchen, buy a car or just pay off your credit cards with your house as collateral.
例如，你又借了 25,000 美元来重装厨房、购买汽车，或者只是用你的房子作为抵押还清信用卡。
The problem becomes that the bank has much more interest in their $25,000 line of credit and helping the homeowner or the investor, in this case.
问题是，在这种情况下，银行对其 25,000 美元的信贷额度和帮助房主或投资者更感兴趣。
Simon says legally, it can be tough to modify your mortgage without basically wiping out your home equity loan.
西蒙说，从法律上讲，在不基本上消除房屋净值贷款的情况下修改抵押贷款可能很困难。
And some of the nation's biggest banks are each on the hook for more than $100 billion of those little home equity loans.
美国一些最大的银行每家都背负着超过 1000 亿美元的小额房屋净值贷款。
And so he says the bank is a big incentive to avoid doing a modification.
因此他表示，银行是避免进行修改的一大动力。
And so it doesn't happen.
所以它不会发生。
Everybody is trying to protect their own self-interest.
每个人都在努力保护自己的利益。
And ultimately, the conflicts keep it from happening.
最终，冲突阻止了这种情况的发生。
The servicers enable this to occur or can essentially veto this from occurring.
服务商允许这种情况发生，或者基本上可以否决这种情况发生。
And so what's in their interest really is dominating the day.
因此，真正符合他们利益的就是主导这一天。
You just look at it and say, hey why can't we just fix this?
你只要看着它就会说，嘿，为什么我们不能解决这个问题呢？
We talked to several of the biggest banks but none of them would let us come do interviews at their loan servicing operations.
我们与几家最大的银行进行了交谈，但没有一家银行愿意让我们采访他们的贷款服务业务。
In prepared statements, the banks point to all the loan adjustments that they are making right now.
在准备好的报表中，银行指出了他们目前正在进行的所有贷款调整。
And these are on the rise and most loan modifications now do result in lower monthly payments.
而且这些金额正在增加，现在大多数贷款修改确实会导致每月还款额降低。
But as Mark Pearce, the deputy banking regulator said earlier, only one in 10 of the people who need loan modifications are getting them.
但正如银行副监管机构马克·皮尔斯(Mark Pearce)早些时候所说，需要贷款调整的人中只有十分之一得到了贷款。
And when the banks and big loan servicers do modify loans, regulators say that too often, they're not taking the dramatic steps that actually keep people in their houses-- the things that Ocwen does, slashing interest rates or lowering the overall amount of loans.
当银行和大型贷款服务机构确实修改贷款时，监管机构常常表示，他们并没有采取真正让人们留在自己的房子里的戏剧性措施——就像欧克文所做的那样，大幅削减利率或降低贷款总额。
And because the big banks don't take those steps, 46% of the modified loans have ended up in trouble again.
由于大银行没有采取这些措施，46% 的修改贷款最终再次陷入困境。
Of course, the scale of this problem is just by its very nature overwhelming.
当然，这个问题的规模本质上是巨大的。
And you can see that at the call center at Ocwen.
您可以在 Ocwen 的呼叫中心看到这一点。
I'm not saying that you haven't been trying, but the last payment that we received that's been applied to your account was in October of '08.
我并不是说您没有尝试过，但我们收到的最后一笔应用于您帐户的付款是在 08 年 10 月。
Call center worker Tammy White has been going around and around trying to do something that sounds like it should be pretty simple-- get a copy of an old tax return from a homeowner who's looking to get her payments lowered.
呼叫中心工作人员塔米·怀特（Tammy White）一直在努力做一些听起来应该很简单的事情——从一位希望降低付款额的房主那里获取一份旧纳税申报表的副本。
Look, I didn't say I didn't receive it.
你看，我并没有说我没有收到。
I said it wasn't signed.
我说没签。
And that could have been what got you in the situation that you're in today.
这可能就是让你陷入今天的境地的原因。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Bye bye.
再见。
Can we talk about that call for a second?
我们可以谈谈这个电话吗？
What's the story there?
那里有什么故事？
She was asking why we need all this because she didn't have to provide any of it when she got her loan.
她问为什么我们需要这一切，因为她在获得贷款时不需要提供任何这些。
And I was trying to explain to her that's why she's probably in this bad situation.
我试图向她解释这就是为什么她可能处于如此糟糕的境地。
So this conversation takes half an hour to try to get one homeowner to sign and mail in one document.
因此，这次谈话花了半个小时，试图让一位房主签署并邮寄一份文件。
This is the conversation that has to happen millions of times if we're going to sort all this out.
如果我们要解决所有问题，这种对话就必须进行数百万次。
That's not an easy thing.
这不是一件容易的事。
But the people here at Ocwen say it's definitely doable.
但 Ocwen 的人说这绝对是可行的。
The Obama administration has a new plan to try to get a lot more loan modifications happening.
奥巴马政府制定了一项新计划，试图对贷款进行更多调整。
But for now, we're still in the middle of this giant foreclosure mess.
但就目前而言，我们仍处于这个巨大的止赎混乱之中。
People are losing their houses at a faster rate every month, another one every eight seconds.
人们每个月都在以更快的速度失去房子，每八秒就会失去一所房子。
Chris Arnold is a reporter for NPR News.
克里斯·阿诺德是 NPR 新闻的记者。
His story is part of Planet Money, which is a co-production that our show is doing with NPR News.
他的故事是《金钱星球》的一部分，该节目是我们的节目与 NPR 新闻联合制作的。
You can have the economy explained to you in normal human language.
您可以用正常的人类语言向您解释经济。
They're even funny on their podcast thrice weekly at www.npr.org/money.
他们甚至每周三次在 www.npr.org/money 上的播客上搞笑。
Coming up, parenting stumpers.
即将到来，育儿难题。
Match your wits against some very well-intentioned parents.
与一些善意的父母斗智斗勇。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.
一分钟后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
Well, it's This American Life.
嗯，这就是《美国生活》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our show, of course, we choose a theme and bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，我们的节目每周都会选择一个主题，并为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's show, No Map.
今天的节目，没有地图。
Stories of people struggling through situations where there are no guideposts or precedents.
人们在没有路标或先例的情况下挣扎的故事。
We've arrived Act Two of our show.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two, Where's King Solomon When You Need Him?
第二幕，当你需要所罗门王时他在哪里？
It's not like there's not a map for how to handle being a parent.
这并不是说没有一张关于如何处理为人父母的地图。
Our culture's actually awash with how-to parenting guides.
我们的文化实际上充斥着育儿指南。
It's actually kind of comforting.
这实际上是一种安慰。
If any jackass can have a kid, I can have a kid.
如果哪个蠢驴能生孩子，我也能生孩子。
Anything that comes up, somebody has already dealt with.
任何出现的事情，都已经有人处理了。
You'll be able to get advice.
您将能够获得建议。
Unless you're a guy in this story, Mike Nyberg.
除非你是这个故事中的人物，迈克·尼伯格。
Over the course of four years, he got into a series of situations and faced a series of parenting decisions in adopting a child that were so unusual, so difficult, that it really seems that he was lost at sea in almost uncharted parenting territory.
在四年的时间里，他在收养一个孩子的过程中遇到了一系列的情况，面临着一系列的育儿决定，这些决定是如此不寻常，如此困难，以至于他真的似乎在几乎未知的育儿领域迷失了方向。
Ted Gesing tells us what happened.
特德·格辛告诉我们发生了什么。
Mike and Kari Nyberg already had two sons.
迈克·尼伯格和卡里·尼伯格已经有了两个儿子。
They're Mormon, or LDS-- Latter Day Saints.
他们是摩门教，或 LDS——后期圣徒。
And when they decided to adopt, they begin to look at children from Samoa, a small Pacific island that has a large LDS population.
当他们决定收养时，他们开始关注来自萨摩亚的孩子，萨摩亚是一个拥有大量摩门教人口的太平洋小岛。
Mike remembers the first picture he saw of the three year old they would eventually name Elleia.
迈克记得他看到的第一张照片，是他们最终命名为艾莉亚的三岁孩子的照片。
I saw a cute little girl with a pair of pants that seemed to be cut off at about the knees.
我看到一个可爱的小女孩，穿着一条膝盖附近被剪掉的裤子。
She didn't have a shirt on.
她没有穿衬衫。
Her bangs were trimmed really short.
她的刘海剪得很短。
Looked like kind of a hack job.
看起来像是一种黑客工作。
What was your understanding of some of these kids' situations?
您对其中一些孩子的情况有何了解？
Did they have families or no?
他们有家人吗？
We were told that they did have families and that their families we're giving them up because of their financial circumstance-- that they wanted a better life for their child, they were not able to provide food for their children.
我们被告知，他们确实有家庭，但由于他们的经济状况，我们要放弃他们的家庭——他们想要让孩子过上更好的生活，但他们无法为孩子提供食物。
Elleia was the youngest of eight kids.
艾莉亚是八个孩子中最小的一个。
The adoption agency Mike and Kari chose in Salt Lake City, called Focus on Children, told them that Elleia had been living for the past nine months in the agency's nanny house where a Samoan couple took care of the children.
迈克和卡里在盐湖城选择的一家名为“关注儿童”的收养机构告诉他们，艾莉亚在过去九个月里一直住在该机构的保姆屋里，一对萨摩亚夫妇在那里照顾孩子们。
But when the time came for them to go pick her up, Mike and Kari were told that Samoa and the nanny house were off limits because of a recent hurricane.
但当他们去接她时，迈克和卡里被告知，由于最近的飓风，萨摩亚和保姆屋禁止进入。
They would have to meet the girl at the closest major airport in New Zealand.
他们必须在新西兰最近的主要机场与女孩见面。
They flew there and waited for Elleia's flight.
他们飞到那里等待艾莉亚的航班。
We picked Elleia up at the airport at one o'clock in the morning.
我们凌晨一点去机场接艾莉亚。
And we waited and waited.
我们等了又等。
Everybody came off the airplane.
大家都下了飞机。
And finally, here came this little girl in a little blue dress, little straps on his shoulders, and she was holding a little orange basketball.
最后，这个小女孩来了，她穿着蓝色小裙子，肩上挎着小带子，手里拿着一个橙色的小篮球。
And she just looked so sad, but we were so excited.
她看起来很悲伤，但我们很兴奋。
I had the camcorder going.
我拿着摄像机。
She kept repeating the words [SPEAKING SAMOAN].
她不断重复[说萨摩亚语]这几个字。
Not knowing Samoan-- not knowing any Samoan at all-- we had no idea what she was saying, couldn't communicate with her.
我们不认识萨摩亚人——根本不认识任何萨摩亚人——我们不知道她在说什么，无法与她交流。
They took her back to their hotel and did what the adoption agency had instructed them, which was to rub her down with a lotion that would kill off scabies.
他们把她带回酒店，按照收养机构的指示做了，用一种可以杀死疥疮的乳液给她擦身。
So here we have this little girl who hasn't reached her fourth birthday quite yet and these two white people, we've stripped her down to nothing and we're rubbing this lotion all over her body, into her hair, into her scalp, and she's just scared to death.
所以我们这里有一个还没有过四岁生日的小女孩，还有这两个白人，我们把她剥得一无所有，我们把这种乳液擦到她的全身，到她的头发，到她的头皮，她简直吓死了。
And I never forget sitting in that love seat and rocking her while she said that, [SPEAKING SAMOAN], not knowing what she was saying, and she finally fell asleep.
我永远不会忘记，当她说[萨摩亚语]时，我坐在那个双人沙发上摇晃着她，但我不知道她在说什么，最后她睡着了。
So our goal the following day was to go out and find somebody that spoke Samoan.
因此，我们第二天的目标是出去寻找会说萨摩亚语的人。
We finally found out that one of the waiters in the restaurant in the hotel we were staying was from Samoa.
最后我们发现我们住的酒店餐厅的一位服务员来自萨摩亚。
And so he talked to her a little bit.
于是他和她聊了一会儿。
And he proceeded to tell us that [SPEAKING SAMOAN] means I want Tupu.
他接着告诉我们，[说萨摩亚语]意味着我想要图普。
Tupu was her mother.
图普是她的母亲。
And so she was merely saying, I want my mom.
所以她只是说，我想要我妈妈。
And who wouldn't?
谁不会呢？
She would hold my hand as we walked down the street, but she I think she really felt like what we were going to do is we were going to take her back where she came from, because she always wanted to go.
当我们走在街上时，她会握着我的手，但我想她真的觉得我们要做的就是带她回到她来的地方，因为她一直想去。
She would actually pick up that little basketball that she had and she would walk over and squat down next to the door and just wait like we were getting ready to leave.
她实际上会拿起她拥有的那个小篮球，然后走过去，蹲在门边，等待，就像我们准备离开一样。
Within days, they were back in Utah, and Elleia begin to settle into her new life.
几天之内，他们回到了犹他州，艾莉亚开始适应她的新生活。
She was doing well, Mike said, and she picked up English incredibly quickly.
迈克说，她做得很好，而且她学英语的速度非常快。
It only took her about a month.
她只花了一个月左右的时间。
And that's when things begin to change for the Nybergs.
就在那时，尼伯格一家的情况开始发生变化。
She started to tell us about her parents.
她开始向我们讲述她父母的事。
And she would name them and she would talk about these different names.
她会给它们命名并谈论这些不同的名字。
And so we wrote all these names down that she would say and tried to spell them the best we knew how.
因此，我们写下了她会说的所有这些名字，并尽力以我们所知道的方式拼写它们。
Well, come to find out these were her siblings and her parents that were sleeping together on the floor of the fale.
好吧，来看看这些是她的兄弟姐妹和她的父母，他们一起睡在庄园的地板上。
Fale is a word for house.
Fale 是房子的意思。
So immediately, when she starts talking about sleeping with her family on the floor in the fale, we had the question come up, well, why would a little girl who was supposed to have been in foster care in the nanny house for almost nine months prior to us adopting her-- that put her just barely over three years old-- why would she be still talking about her parents?
因此，当她开始谈论与她的家人一起睡在庄园的地板上时，我们就提出了一个问题，好吧，为什么一个在我们收养她之前已经在保姆屋寄养了近九个月的小女孩——她才三岁多——为什么她还要谈论她的父母？
Why wouldn't she be referring to the nanny and the nanny's husband?
她为什么不是指保姆和保姆的丈夫呢？
There were other clues that something wasn't right.
还有其他线索表明事情有些不对劲。
They dug up a photo the adoption agency had sent, supposedly taken of Elleia at the nanny house, and discovered it didn't match the photos of the nanny house that were on the internet.
他们翻出了收养机构发来的一张照片，据说是艾莉亚在保姆屋拍摄的，结果发现它与互联网上保姆屋的照片不符。
Mike and Kari were realizing they'd been lied to in little ways, and they wondered if they were being lied to in big ways.
迈克和卡里意识到他们在小方面被欺骗了，他们想知道他们是否在大方面被欺骗了。
So they started digging around.
于是他们开始四处挖掘。
A friend's brother-in-law was working with the LDS church in Samoa and agreed to help them.
一位朋友的姐夫正在萨摩亚的摩门教徒教会工作，他同意帮助他们。
He got a translator and tried to track down Elleia's birth parents-- the [?
他找了一名翻译并试图找到艾莉亚的亲生父母——[？
Soes ?] in the remote jungle village listed on Elleia's birth certificate.
索斯？]在艾莉亚出生证明上列出的偏远丛林村庄。
They headed out past where maps could take them and eventually found some of Elleia's relatives.
他们经过地图可以指引的地方，最终找到了艾莉亚的一些亲戚。
Not Tupu, her mother, but Ama, Elleia's oldest sister, and her husband Tovea who spoke English.
不是她的母亲图普，而是艾莉亚的大姐阿玛和她会说英语的丈夫托维娅。
[?
[？
Tovea explained that the girl had always lived with them, not in the nanny house, and that the [?
托维娅解释说，那个女孩一直和他们住在一起，而不是住在保姆屋里，而且[？
Soe ?] family had a very different understanding of what they had signed their girl up for.
Soe？] 家人对于他们为女儿签约的目的有着截然不同的理解。
It was this.
就是这个。
Elleia was going to be here in the United States until she was 18 years old.
艾莉亚原本打算在美国待到 18 岁。
She would be getting an American education and that we, the American family, were supposed to be sending money to the birth family during that time span while she's here in the United States.
她将接受美国教育，而我们，美国家庭，应该在她在美国的那段时间里向她的出生家庭汇款。
Then when she turned 18, of course, she would return to Samoa with that education and be able to support the family or whatever they saw fit.
当然，当她年满 18 岁时，她会回到萨摩亚接受教育，并能够养家糊口或做他们认为合适的事情。
The [?
这 [？
Soes ?] seemed to believe this was a study abroad program and that they'd be receiving updates, photos, letters, and gifts.
索斯？] 似乎相信这是一个出国留学项目，他们会收到最新消息、照片、信件和礼物。
Of course, this was not at all what the adoption agency had told Mike and Kari, which is that this girl was left it a nanny house nine months earlier by a family they couldn't afford to feed her, and that it was a traditional closed adoption, where the birth family would have no claim to their child.
当然，这根本不是收养机构告诉迈克和卡里的，九个月前，这个女孩被一个无力抚养她的家庭留在了保姆屋，这是一种传统的封闭式收养，出生家庭对他们的孩子没有任何权利。
The [?
这 [？
Soes, ?] it turned out, were farmers with plenty to eat and more to sell at market.
事实证明，索斯是农民，他们有足够的食物，还有更多的东西可以在市场上出售。
And worst of all was the story of the [?
最糟糕的是[？
Soes ?] last interaction with their daughter.
索斯？]最后一次与女儿互动。
Someone from the adoption agency came by one evening to get the girl and told the [?
一天晚上，收养机构的人来接女孩并告诉[？
Soes ?] that she was just spending a night in the nanny house to get used to being away from home.
索斯？]她只是在保姆屋住了一晚，以适应远离家乡的生活。
The man told them Elleia would be back the next day.
该男子告诉他们艾莉亚第二天就会回来。
Instead, that same night she was taken straight to the airport and put on a flight to New Zealand.
相反，当天晚上，她被直接送往机场并搭乘飞往新西兰的航班。
So we were getting this little girl, unbeknownst to us, that had been with her parents two hours earlier, not knowing that they were fully planning on seeing her the next day, but never to see her again.
所以我们在不知情的情况下找到了这个小女孩，她两小时前就和她的父母在一起了，不知道他们完全计划第二天见到她，但再也见不到她了。
And once they figured out she wasn't coming back, imagine how terrified they were.
一旦他们发现她不会回来，想象一下他们有多么害怕。
To understand why the [?
要理解为什么 [?
Soes ?] would even agree in the first place to a deal like the one they described, it helps to know that in Samoa, there is no tradition of relinquishing your legal rights to a child.
索斯？]甚至会首先同意他们所描述的那样的协议，这有助于了解在萨摩亚，没有放弃对孩子的合法权利的传统。
There are no orphanages there.
那里没有孤儿院。
There is no such thing as adoption.
不存在收养这回事。
Samoans generally have large families, and it's not unusual to send a child for a time to other family members or friends who can better afford to raise him or her.
萨摩亚人通常有大家庭，将孩子暂时送到有能力抚养孩子的其他家庭成员或朋友身边并不罕见。
To them, it just becomes an extended family.
对他们来说，这只是一个大家庭。
So to the [?
所以到[?
Soes, ?] the idea of sending a child off to be taken care of and educated in the US didn't seem all that odd.
Soes，？]把孩子送到美国接受照顾和教育的想法似乎并不奇怪。
After hearing all of this from their man in Samoa, the Nybergs took a huge step.
从萨摩亚人那里听到这一切后，尼伯格夫妇迈出了一大步。
They went to the authorities.
他们去找当局。
They told what they'd found to the State Department agent, who had processed their application to adopt, and to an agent from immigration and customs.
他们将自己的发现告诉了处理他们收养申请的国务院特工，以及移民和海关的特工。
Both agents were shocked.
两个经纪人都震惊了。
Mike and Kari knew that the case would escalate, but they had no idea what would happen to their family.
迈克和卡里知道案件会升级，但他们不知道他们的家人会发生什么。
They'd had Elleia for almost six months.
他们拥有艾莉亚已经快六个月了。
Did you think about whether you would have to give her back at that stage?
你有没有想过那个时候要不要还给她？
Oh yeah.
哦，是的。
Yeah, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
I thought, well, if this adoption isn't supposed to be, then is this child really ours?
我想，好吧，如果收养不应该，那么这个孩子真的是我们的吗？
Whose family does she belong to?
她属于谁的家族？
It was scary.
太可怕了。
What did this do to your relationship with Elleia herself?
这对你和艾莉亚本人的关系有什么影响？
How do you react to that?
你对此有何反应？
Well, I didn't allow it to-- and not that I was consciously making a choice-- I continued to bond with her.
好吧，我不允许——并不是我有意识地做出选择——我继续与她保持联系。
I treated her normally.
我平常对待她。
I think my wife kind of went the other direction.
我认为我的妻子有点走向另一个方向。
She probably had some concerns and so I think she kind of became standoffish.
她可能有一些顾虑，所以我认为她变得冷漠了。
Knowing that maybe this adoption is fraudulent and we won't get to keep this little girl, how can I let myself get attached to her?
明知这次收养可能是骗人的，我们也留不住这个小女孩，我该如何让自己对她产生依恋呢？
Kari didn't want to speak to us for this story.
卡里不想和我们谈论这个故事。
She did send me an email answering some of my questions but didn't address this particular point.
她确实给我发了一封电子邮件，回答了我的一些问题，但没有解决这一点。
So we only have Mike's perspective on this.
所以我们只有迈克对此的看法。
The government started its investigation, interviewing dozens of families in America and in Samoa.
政府开始调查，采访了美国和萨摩亚的数十个家庭。
And for a long time, there was nothing Mike and Kari could do except wait.
很长一段时间，迈克和卡里除了等待之外别无他法。
Finally, they decided to fly to Samoa themselves with Elleia to meet her family, the [?
最后，他们决定和艾莉亚一起飞往萨摩亚，去见她的家人，[？
Soes.
索斯。
?] At this point, Mike and Kari had been raising Elleia as their daughter for almost two years.
？] 此时，迈克和卡里已经将艾莉亚作为他们的女儿抚养了近两年。
The two families arranged to meet at an LDS temple in Apia, the capital.
两个家庭安排在首都阿皮亚的一座摩门教圣殿见面。
Elleia recognized her parents immediately and they picked her up and hugged her and cried.
艾莉亚立刻认出了她的父母，他们把她抱起来，拥抱她，哭了。
You're all standing there meeting for the first time.
你们都是第一次站在那里见面。
And it's immediate, it's apparent that this is their girl and she wants to be with them?
而且很直接，很明显这是他们的女孩，她想和他们在一起？
No, not necessarily.
不，不一定。
It's a very strange situation because she was hesitant going to them because she'd been away from them for a while.
这是一个非常奇怪的情况，因为她已经离开他们有一段时间了，所以很犹豫是否要去他们那里。
She really didn't want to stay with them.
她实在是不想跟他们待在一起。
Right after that, we loaded up into a vehicle and headed to their village and spent time out there.
之后，我们就上了车，前往他们的村庄，在那里度过了一段时光。
It took her time to readjust back into her family.
她花了一些时间才重新适应家庭。
They very much loved their daughter.
他们非常爱他们的女儿。
You could absolutely tell.
你绝对可以说出来。
But she was really bonded to me and when I was there, she didn't seem to want anything to do with anybody else-- wanted to sit on daddy's lap.
但她真的和我很亲近，当我在那里时，她似乎不想和其他人有任何关系——只想坐在爸爸的腿上。
And seeing where she was from, you come around a corner and you see this building with palm leaves on the roof and no outside walls, just poles holding the roof up.
看看她来自哪里，你拐过一个拐角，你就会看到这座屋顶上有棕榈叶的建筑，没有外墙，只有柱子支撑着屋顶。
And then to start looking around and see how dirty it is, how filthy the kids' clothes were that lived there, just living amidst all the mud and dirt and lava rock, and we all sit on the floor.
然后开始环顾四周，看看那里有多脏，住在那里的孩子们的衣服有多脏，就生活在所有的泥土、泥土和熔岩中，我们都坐在地板上。
Everybody pretty much sits in a big circle.
每个人几乎都围成一个大圈。
The kids kind of run around.
孩子们有点跑来跑去。
That have one little light bulb-- about a sixty-watt light bulb in the ceiling there, and that's their light.
天花板上有一个小灯泡——大约六十瓦的灯泡，这就是他们的灯。
It was hard to communicate.
沟通很困难。
More than just a language barrier, there was a cultural barrier.
不仅仅是语言障碍，还有文化障碍。
It wasn't clear what to talk about.
目前尚不清楚该谈论什么。
Mike says they didn't seem to want to discuss what had happened or why it happened.
迈克说他们似乎不想讨论发生了什么或为什么会发生。
All they really wanted to know was what would happen next.
他们真正想知道的是接下来会发生什么。
Initially, that's the first thing they ask is, OK, what's the program?
最初，他们问的第一件事是，好的，这个程序是什么？
And that was their way of asking us, why are you here?
这就是他们问我们的方式，你为什么在这里？
What are we doing?
我们在做什么？
Is Elleia coming back to live with us or is she going back home with you?
艾莉亚会回来和我们一起住还是会和你一起回家？
They know that we love her and they know that we are taking care of her and they can see that she's in good hands and they appreciate that and they want us to make the decision.
他们知道我们爱她，他们知道我们正在照顾她，他们可以看到她得到了很好的照顾，他们对此表示赞赏，他们希望我们做出决定。
It wasn't up to them, it was up to us to decide what to do.
这不是由他们决定的，而是由我们决定要做什么。
It was dark when Mike and Kari left the village to drive back to their hotel.
当迈克和卡丽离开村庄开车回旅馆时，天已经黑了。
In the car, they struggled to figure out what would be best.
在车里，他们努力思考什么是最好的。
We're talking about a human life-- a little girl-- and to treat it like it's a box of bananas it seemed unreasonable and unfathomable to me because now I have to decide what to do with her and I love her to death.
我们谈论的是一个人的生命——一个小女孩——把它当作一盒香蕉来对待，这对我来说似乎不合理且深不可测，因为现在我必须决定如何对待她，而且我爱她爱得要死。
She was just like my own flesh and blood.
她就像我的骨肉一样。
But it also gave me a taste of how her own parents really felt not having her and not being able to be with her.
但这也让我体会到了她自己的父母没有她、无法和她在一起的真实感受。
I think I felt the same love they felt for their daughter.
我想我对他们的女儿也有同样的爱。
When I asked Kari about this in an email, she said she also felt for Elleia's parents.
当我在电子邮件中向卡里询问此事时，她说她也同情艾莉亚的父母。
She'd lost a child-- a two- month old-- and she said knowing there was another mother out there who lost her child broker her heart.
她失去了一个两个月大的孩子，她说知道还有另一位失去孩子的母亲让她很伤心。
"There was no way I would put another mother through that pain," she wrote.
“我不可能让另一个母亲经历这种痛苦，”她写道。
Mike and Kari decided to leave Elleia with her birth family.
迈克和卡丽决定将艾莉亚留给她的原生家庭。
It's a decision Mike describes as the right one, but he still plays it over and over in his mind.
迈克认为这是一个正确的决定，但他仍然在脑海中一遍又一遍地思考这个决定。
His biggest consideration, he says, was his wife's relationship with Elleia.
他说，他最考虑的是妻子与艾莉亚的关系。
Let's put it this way, Ted.
让我们这样说吧，特德。
If it was just me that had made that choice, there's a lot higher possibility that she wouldn't have stayed there.
如果只有我做出这样的选择，她很有可能不会留在那里。
Maybe because I'm selfish.
也许是因为我很自私。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Maybe it's a little strong to say that I would definitely have not left her there, but I think I wanted Elleia a little bit more than what my wife did.
也许说我绝对不会把她留在那里有点过分，但我想我比我妻子更想要艾莉亚。
The fact that she hadn't bonded with Elleia, it wasn't as difficult for her to make that choice.
事实上，她并没有和艾莉亚产生感情，所以她做出这样的选择并不是那么困难。
But as a couple, you decide what would be best for the entire situation.
但作为夫妻，你可以决定什么对整个情况最有利。
In the end, Mike took comfort in the only thing that seemed like solid footing-- the idea that he could remedy an injustice by returning Elleia.
最后，迈克对唯一看似坚实的基础感到安慰——他可以通过归还艾莉亚来弥补不公正。
The middle ground that I kept standing on was that she was given to us on false pretenses.
我一直坚持的中间立场是，她是在虚假的借口下被送给我们的。
And we were lied to.
我们被骗了。
They were lied to.
他们被骗了。
Maybe she just isn't supposed to be with us.
也许她不应该和我们在一起。
Did you worry that Elleia would suffer?
你担心艾莉亚会受苦吗？
Did you feel like you were abandoning her in any way?
你有没有觉得你以某种方式抛弃了她？
I absolutely did.
我绝对做到了。
The night that we left, we were getting ready to go to the airport, standing in the village, and I could not peel her off of me.
离开的那天晚上，我们正准备去机场，站在村子里，我无法把她从我身上剥下来。
She was crying and we were talking to her, trying to let her know that it would all be OK and that she was going to be able to stay with Tupu and Isea.
她在哭，我们在和她说话，试图让她知道一切都会好起来的，她将能够和图普和伊西娅在一起。
And she just bawled and bawled.
她只是不停地嚎叫。
And she clung to my neck and would not let go.
而她却搂着我的脖子不肯放开。
And her mom tried to take her.
她妈妈试图带她去。
And her mom couldn't get her off of me.
她妈妈无法让她离开我。
Her dad couldn't get her off of me.
她爸爸无法让她离开我。
And finally her brother, he was able to peel her off my neck.
最后，她的兄弟，他把她从我脖子上剥了下来。
We found out that she cried herself to sleep for several weeks after that.
我们发现，在那之后的几个星期里，她一直哭着入睡。
Mike and Kari returned to Utah alone.
迈克和卡丽独自回到犹他州。
Mike says the house was strange without her.
迈克说，没有她，房子就很奇怪。
They kept her room the same-- her girly bed, some clothes that no longer fit.
他们让她的房间保持原样——她少女般的床，一些不再合身的衣服。
Her little bike was still in the garage.
她的小自行车还在车库里。
Every couple of weeks, they would call Samoa just to check in.
每隔几周，他们就会打电话给萨摩亚询问情况。
And that went on for, oh gosh, it'd been about five, six months.
这种情况持续了大约五六个月。
And they had the ability to call us from their cell phones also.
他们还可以通过手机给我们打电话。
And they called us one day and they said, "we know that you love Elleia, and if you would like to have her back, you can have her."
有一天他们打电话给我们说：“我们知道你爱艾莉亚，如果你想让她回来，你就可以拥有她。”
For weeks, I called the [?
几个星期以来，我一直打电话给[?
Soes ?] to hear their side of this, but it always went straight to voicemail.
Soes？] 听听他们的观点，但它总是直接转到语音信箱。
The one time I did get through, I spoke with Elleia's sister-in-law, who said they didn't have any minutes on the phone card and couldn't talk.
有一次我拨通了电话，我与艾莉亚的嫂子通话，她说他们的电话卡上没有任何通话记录，无法通话。
If it seems hard to believe that they'd give Elleia back again, Mike says it's really pretty straightforward.
如果看起来很难相信他们会再次归还艾莉亚，迈克说这真的非常简单。
He believes the [?
他相信[?
Soes ?] had come to trust him and Kari and now thought of them as extended family.
索斯？] 开始信任他和卡里，现在将他们视为大家庭。
And her parents knew, if they sent Elleia back, she'd have all the advantages they wanted for her in America, and they'd still get to see her and be part of her life.
她的父母知道，如果他们把艾莉亚送回去，她将在美国拥有他们想要的所有优势，而且他们仍然可以见到她并成为她生活的一部分。
They could feel it.
他们能感觉到。
They knew that she was in a good situation, probably the situation that they had dreamed for her.
他们知道她的处境很好，可能就是他们为她梦想的处境。
Honestly, for me, I felt joy.
老实说，对于我来说，我感到很高兴。
I thought, really?
我想，真的吗？
OK.
好的。
Well, that's neat.
嗯，这很整洁。
Did you think that Elleia had been unhappy there and wanted to come back or would benefit from coming back?
你是否认为艾莉亚在那里过得不开心并想回来，或者回来会受益？
Well, I knew that she had been unhappy in the initial month because of hearing about how she cried herself to sleep every night.
嗯，我知道她第一个月不开心，是因为听说她每天晚上都是哭着入睡的。
And, of course, I was very concerned about that-- very concerned that maybe having gone through as much as she's gone through, it was detrimental to her mental and spiritual well-being.
当然，我对此非常担心——非常担心也许经历了和她一样多的事情，这对她的精神和精神健康有害。
And now I can kind of keep an eye on her and I can make sure she's provided for and I don't have to wonder how she's doing.
现在我可以密切关注她，我可以确保她得到照顾，而我不必想知道她过得怎么样。
They went back to Samoa to pick up a Elleia.
他们回到萨摩亚去接艾莉亚。
That week in Samoa was a wonderful reunion for everybody.
在萨摩亚的那一周对每个人来说都是一次美妙的团聚。
We made sure that most of her family was able to go to the airport to see her off.
我们确保她的大多数家人能够去机场为她送行。
And when we went to get on the airplane, some of her family were in tears but she wasn't in tears and she wasn't fighting to stay with them.
当我们上飞机时，她的一些家人都在流泪，但她没有流泪，也没有努力与他们在一起。
I think more Elleia is resolved to, oh, well, this is just the way life is.
我认为艾莉亚更加决心，哦，好吧，这就是生活的方式。
This is what I do.
这就是我所做的。
I go back and forth.
我来来回回。
Back in Utah, Elleia was soon at home again, sleeping in her old room, playing with her two brothers.
回到犹他州后，艾莉亚很快又回到了家，睡在她原来的房间里，和她的两个兄弟一起玩耍。
She started up school in the fall.
她秋天开始上学。
And mike said he was so hopeful about the whole thing that his wife would come to feel as close to Elleia as he did.
迈克说，他对整件事充满希望，以至于他的妻子会像他一样感受到与艾莉亚的亲密。
But things didn't really improve.
但情况并没有真正改善。
In June was when she came back.
六月是她回来的时候。
In October, my wife asked me for a divorce.
10月，妻子向我提出离婚。
The past three and a half years had been rough on Mike and Kari's marriage.
过去的三年半对迈克和卡里的婚姻来说是艰难的。
The stress of adopting and then giving Elleia back was huge in itself, but on top of that was the investigation into the adoption agency, Focus on Children.
收养并归还艾莉亚的压力本身就很大，但最重要的是对收养机构“关注儿童”的调查。
The Nybergs were in constant contact with various law enforcement agencies.
尼伯格夫妇与各个执法机构保持着持续的联系。
The case had sort of taken over their lives.
这个案子已经占据了他们的生活。
It was exhausting.
太累了。
The day after they decided to split up, Mike called the [?
他们决定分手的第二天，迈克打电话给[？
Soes ?] to let them know.
Soes？] 让他们知道。
Now he was asking them what they wanted to do-- leave Elleia with him or take her back.
现在他问他们想做什么——把艾莉亚留在他身边还是带她回去。
Well, I knew full well that their idea for their daughter was to be here with an LDS family in the United States, but the key word there is family, and an operative family where there's a mother and a father, not a divorce situation.
嗯，我很清楚他们对女儿的想法是和美国的一个摩门教家庭在一起，但那里的关键词是家庭，一个有母亲和父亲的有效家庭，而不是离婚的情况。
So I called them the next day, the [?
所以第二天我给他们打电话，[？
Soes, ?] and presented to them what was happening and asked them what they would like to do.
Soes，？]并向他们介绍了正在发生的事情并询问他们想要做什么。
And they chose to have Elleia come back to Samoa.
他们选择让艾莉亚回到萨摩亚。
And when they did, they said, if you and Kari ever get back together again, you can have Elleia again.
当他们这样做时，他们说，如果你和卡丽再次复合，你就可以再次拥有艾莉亚。
Just told her that she was going to go back to live with her family in Samoa.
只是告诉她她要回萨摩亚与家人一起生活。
And at that age, you can't really tell her a whole lot.
在那个年纪，你不能告诉她很多事情。
We certainly didn't tell her we were getting divorced.
我们当然没有告诉她我们要离婚。
And I'm not sure that Elleia knows why she was going back and forth.
我不确定艾莉亚是否知道她为什么要来回走动。
So we got to the airport and put her on an Air New Zealand flight that goes straight to Apia, Samoa.
于是我们到了机场，让她搭乘新西兰航空的航班，直飞萨摩亚阿皮亚。
Wow.
哇。
I'll never forget that day.
我永远不会忘记那一天。
And I really didn't feel comfortable with it.
我真的对此感到不舒服。
They called her name-- they usually let the children on first-- and they came to get her, and so we walked her right to the ramp.
他们叫她的名字——他们通常让孩子们先上——然后他们来接她，所以我们陪她走到坡道。
And she held the lady's hand and walked down the ramp and got on the plane and that's the last we saw of her at that point.
她握着那位女士的手，走下坡道，上了飞机，那是我们最后一次见到她。
Mike still wonders about all of this-- every step.
迈克仍然对这一切——每一步感到好奇。
And when he does, he comes back to this weird balance where he believes he did the right thing, but he can't exactly explain why it was right, even to himself.
当他这样做时，他又回到了这种奇怪的平衡，他相信自己做了正确的事情，但他无法准确解释为什么这是正确的，甚至对他自己也是如此。
I know a lot of this probably is hard to understand.
我知道其中很多可能很难理解。
Every decision I made in this process was through prayer and I can't explain to you why I received the answers that I did, but I can tell you that now, sometimes the answers don't seem reasonable or they just don't make sense.
我在这个过程中做出的每一个决定都是通过祈祷，我无法向你解释为什么我收到了我所做的答案，但现在我可以告诉你，有时答案看起来不合理，或者根本没有意义。
After more than three years of remarkable efforts, I am pleased to be here to discuss what I refer to as the thoughtful resolution of the most difficult and unique case that we've seen in this office in a long time.
经过三年多的非凡努力，我很高兴来到这里讨论我所说的深思熟虑的解决方案，这是我们在这个办公室很长时间以来看到的最困难和最独特的案件。
In resolving this case with guilty pleas--
在以认罪方式解决此案时——
On February 25th, Brett Tolman, the US Attorney for Utah, spoke to the press about the sentencing of the owners and staff of the adoption agency Focus on Children.
2月25日，美国犹他州检察官布雷特·托尔曼就收养机构“关注儿童”的所有者和工作人员的判决向媒体发表讲话。
Two years earlier, he had filed his indictment-- 135 counts involving 37 families.
两年前，他提出了起诉书——涉及 37 个家庭的 135 项罪名。
But in the end, owner Scott and Karen Banks pled guilty to much reduced charges.
但最终，老板斯科特和凯伦·班克斯承认有罪，罪名大大减轻。
They admitted to some false statements made in the adoption paperwork but not a lot more.
他们承认收养文件中存在一些虚假陈述，但没有承认更多。
They didn't admit to intentional deception or fraud.
他们不承认故意欺骗或欺诈。
The judge required them to pay into a fund for counseling for some of the children and to help the US and Samoan families keep in touch, although the court isn't forcing the US families to initiate contact.
法官要求他们为一些孩子提供咨询基金，并帮助美国和萨摩亚家庭保持联系，尽管法院并没有强迫美国家庭主动联系。
Most important, the judge banned Scott and Karen Banks and all their employees from the adoption business for life.
最重要的是，法官终身禁止斯科特和凯伦·班克斯及其所有员工从事收养业务。
International adoption fraud cases like this have almost never made it into US courts.
像这样的国际收养欺诈案件几乎从未进入美国法院。
There's only been one other instance so far.
到目前为止，还只发生过另外一例。
So adoption advocates all over the country were watching closely.
因此全国各地的收养倡导者都在密切关注。
And when they heard the plea deal-- no jail time, not even probation-- they were outraged.
当他们听到认罪协议——没有牢狱之灾，甚至没有缓刑——时，他们感到愤怒。
Tolman knew this and wearily explained why the case ended as it did.
托尔曼知道这一点，并疲倦地解释了案件为何如此结束。
He clearly had struggled-- just like Mike Nyberg-- to make sense of the whole thing.
显然，他像迈克·尼伯格一样，很难理解整件事。
We do not pretend-- I do not pretend to have the perfect answer or the perfect approach.
我们不会假装——我不会假装拥有完美的答案或完美的方法。
At the heart of this case has always been the children.
这个案件的核心始终是孩子。
When the choice became the welfare, future, and lives of the children versus the amount of jail time and sheer punishment of the defendants, I chose the children and avoiding further innocents from suffering.
当选择是孩子们的福利、未来和生活与被告的入狱时间和严厉惩罚时，我选择了孩子们，避免更多无辜者遭受痛苦。
What that meant in practice was that Tolman and his team didn't want to drag the adoptive families through a trial, which many of the families feared could attract too much attention from the Samoan government or immigration and customs-- anyone who might question their right to keep their adopted children.
这在实践中意味着托尔曼和他的团队不想让收养家庭经历审判，许多收养家庭担心这会引起萨摩亚政府或移民和海关的过多关注——任何人都可能质疑他们保留收养孩子的权利。
There could still be civil suits.
仍然可能存在民事诉讼。
A custody fight.
一场监护权之争。
At least one Samoan father is actively trying to get his child back, but that's unusual.
至少有一位萨摩亚父亲正在积极尝试让他的孩子回来，但这并不寻常。
Prosecutors say that most of the Samoan families are not seeking their children's return.
检察官表示，大多数萨摩亚家庭并不寻求孩子的回归。
In interviews, they told investigators they just wanted to make sure their kids were safe.
在采访中，他们告诉调查人员，他们只是想确保孩子的安全。
They wanted to do what's best for them.
他们想做对他们最有利的事情。
And none of the other American families involved wanted to do what the Nybergs did-- return their children to Samoa.
其他参与其中的美国家庭都不想像尼伯格一家那样——将孩子送回萨摩亚。
As the prosecution team realized this, the meaning of justice in this case changed.
当检方意识到这一点后，正义在本案中的含义发生了变化。
Jonathan Lines handled the case for immigration and customs.
乔纳森·莱恩斯 (Jonathan Lines) 负责处理移民和海关案件。
He said a couple of his investigators were unusually disturbed by what they learned.
他说，他的几名调查员对他们所了解到的情况感到异常不安。
As parents, they couldn't quite draw enough distance.
作为父母，他们无法保持足够的距离。
And by now, neither Lines nor anyone else is prepared to argue that the kids should be returned to Samoa.
到目前为止，莱恩斯和其他任何人都不愿意争论孩子们应该被送回萨摩亚。
The only perspective I can give you is from my own human perspective.
我能给你的唯一观点是从我自己的人类角度出发。
I don't know that I could give a child back.
我不知道我能把孩子还给你吗？
This is an absolute conundrum and it's something that I don't know will be easily resolved.
这绝对是一个难题，而且我不知道会很容易解决。
That's why the investigation and a resolution that would seek real and true justice, I don't know that that's ever possible in a scenario like this.
这就是为什么要进行调查和寻求真正正义的解决方案，我不知道在这样的情况下这是否可能。
As for the other families in this case, most of them say they wish Mike had never gone to the feds at all, that there'd never been an indictment.
至于本案中的其他家庭，他们中的大多数人表示，他们希望迈克根本没有去找联邦调查局，也希望从来没有起诉书。
They've been angry with Mike and they thought he was crazy to give back his daughter.
他们对迈克很生气，认为他把女儿还给他是疯了。
Rod Young was one of three parents who spoke at the sentencing.
罗德·杨是在宣判时发言的三名家长之一。
He testified in defense of Focus on Children, who brought him his son, [?
他为“关注儿童”组织作证，该组织给他带来了儿子，[？
Tawni.
塔尼。
?] Rod loves [?
？]罗德喜欢[？
Tawni ?] so much he gets choked up just talking about him.
Tawni？] 太多了，只要谈论他，他就会哽咽。
And he makes the same argument the Bankses themselves made in their own defense.
他也提出了与班克斯家族为自己辩护时同样的论点。
They did so much good in adoptions worldwide.
他们在全球收养方面做了很多好事。
They brought so much aid to poor communities.
他们为贫困社区带来了如此多的援助。
Plus, these kids are better off here.
另外，这些孩子在这里过得更好。
And if the Bankses cut a few corners in their business, that's only a tiny part of the whole picture.
如果班克斯家族在他们的业务中走捷径，那也只是整个局面的一小部分。
I spoke to Rod Young right after the sentencing.
宣判后我立即与罗德·杨进行了交谈。
I don't know if you heard, but they've done over a thousand adoptions.
我不知道你是否听说过，但他们已经完成了一千多次收养。
And today's event was focused on 39 of them, of which we only heard from two that were really, really angry and I believe that those were the ones that started the whole thing.
今天的活动主要针对其中 39 个人，其中我们只听到其中两个人非常非常愤怒，我相信正是他们引发了整个事件。
There was nothing wrong with our adoption.
我们的收养没有任何问题。
Do you feel that this case puts your family at risk?
您认为此案会让您的家人面临危险吗？
Potentially.
有潜力。
That's the biggest fear.
这是最大的恐惧。
And hopefully, today, what I was able to do a little bit and what I said was in speaking out was to say, hey look, these children are here.
希望今天我能够做一点事情，我所说的就是说，嘿，看，这些孩子在这里。
They're already so much more advantaged by a thousand percent from where they come from.
与他们的出身地相比，他们已经拥有了百分之千的优势。
And we love the Samoan culture, but if I had a nickel for every person that touched my son and said lucky baby, just to reach out and touch him as we were going through the markets-- the people that would take him and hold him and say lucky baby, lucky baby, and then give him back to us because they know what he was coming back to as opposed to what was there.
我们热爱萨摩亚文化，但如果我能给每个触摸我儿子并说幸运宝贝的人一分钱，当我们穿过市场时，只要伸手抚摸他，那些人就会拉着他，抱着他，说幸运宝贝，幸运宝贝，然后把他还给我们，因为他们知道他会回到什么地方，而不是那里。
It's a wonderful life, but there's nothing there for the children.
生活很美好，但孩子们却一无所有。
Mike Nyberg can understand why other parents haven't done what he did.
迈克·尼伯格（Mike Nyberg）可以理解为什么其他父母没有做他所做的事情。
He gets that his extraordinary decision might never be repeated by other families.
他意识到其他家庭可能永远不会重复他的非凡决定。
Why don't they want to give the children back if you did and you knew it was the right thing?
如果你这么做了并且你知道这是正确的事情，他们为什么不愿意把孩子还给你呢？
Are all these people not doing the right thing?
难道这些人都没有做正确的事吗？
I can't speak for them.
我不能代表他们说话。
I know how I feel about Elleia and I know how difficult it is and I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.
我知道我对艾莉亚的感受，我知道这有多困难，我不希望我最大的敌人也有这样的感觉。
It is a decision that nobody should ever have to make.
这是任何人都不应该做出的决定。
So these are questions that nobody's ever had to answer before.
所以这些是以前没有人需要回答的问题。
And there are no answers to those questions of what's right and what's wrong.
对于什么是对、什么是错的问题没有答案。
Because if they send all the kids back to Samoa, you're doing essentially the same thing happened to those children to begin with-- ripping them out of their homes.
因为如果他们把所有的孩子都送回萨摩亚，那么你所做的基本上与这些孩子身上发生的事情一开始就一样——把他们赶出家门。
But do they really belong to these families?
但他们真的属于这些家庭吗？
That's God's call.
那是神的呼召。
But you know what?
但你知道吗？
I don't think he's going to tell us.
我认为他不会告诉我们。
I think we just have to make the right choice.
我认为我们必须做出正确的选择。
Since February 2007, when Mike and Kari said goodbye to Elleia at the airport, Mike has gone back to Samoa once for a visit.
自2007年2月Mike和Kari在机场告别Elleia以来，Mike曾回过一次萨摩亚探望。
He brought his two sons so they could really see where she was.
他带着两个儿子来，这样他们就能真正看到她在哪里。
Mike said they never understood it before just looking at the globe, at a tiny dot in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.
迈克说，在观察地球、太平洋中部的一个小点之前，他们从未理解过这一点。
Mike's dream is to one day have enough money to bring Elleia over here for extended visits every year or two.
迈克的梦想是有一天有足够的钱，每隔一两年就带艾莉亚来这里进行长期访问。
And in Samoa, not too long after Elleia's return, one of her older sisters had a baby boy.
在萨摩亚，艾莉亚回来后不久，她的一个姐姐生了一个男婴。
She named him Mike.
她给他起名叫迈克。
A few months after that, another sister gave birth to another boy.
几个月后，另一个姐妹又生了一个男孩。
They named this one Nyberg.
他们将这个命名为尼伯格。
Ted Gesing is a TV documentary producer.
泰德·格辛 (Ted Gesing) 是一名电视纪录片制片人。
A chimpanzee can tear a man apart with his bare hands.
黑猩猩可以徒手撕碎一个人。
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of this American life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多关于美国生活的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。