378: This I Used to Believe - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #378 | April 17, 2009 378: This I Used to Believe Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 378 集 | 2009 年 4 月 17 日 378：这我曾经相信 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.
序言 Ira Glass 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥，这就是美国生活，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass, and the theme of today's show is, This I Used to Believe.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，今天节目的主题是“我曾经相信这一点”。
And I have to admit this is just a knockoff of this series that's been running on NPR News called, This I Believe, which in turn, actually is a knockoff of the This I Believe Series that Edward R.
我必须承认，这只是 NPR 新闻上播出的系列节目《我相信》的山寨版，而该系列实际上是爱德华·R·肯尼迪 (Edward R.
Murrow did in the 1950s.
默罗在 20 世纪 50 年代就这么做了。
Maybe you've heard some of these on the radio.
也许您在广播中听过其中一些。
These are short essays, three minutes long, by famous people and not so famous people very often, about what life has taught them.
这些是三分钟长的短文，作者是名人，也有不那么出名的人，讲述生活教会了他们什么。
The NPR series actually invited listeners from all over the world to write in with their own short essays about what they believe in.
NPR 系列实际上邀请了来自世界各地的听众写下自己的短文，讲述他们的信仰。
And 65,000 people responded.
65,000 人做出了回应。
65,000.
65,000。
I was talking to Jay Allison, who heads the team that sorted through the essays and edited the ones that ended up on the radio, and he he told me that while only 200 of the essays actually ended up on the air, all 65,000 went on to this website that they set up.
我正在与 Jay Allison 交谈，他负责整理这些文章并编辑最终在广播中播出的文章，他告诉我，虽然只有 200 篇文章最终播出，但所有 65,000 篇文章都进入了他们建立的这个网站。
You know, if you go to the website, you can type in any word.
您知道，如果您访问该网站，您可以输入任何单词。
I'd started typing in words.
我开始打字。
I typed like, squid.
我输入的内容是“鱿鱼”。
11 essays mention squid.
11篇文章提到了鱿鱼。
Car bomb, 20.
汽车炸弹，20。
Death, 7,000 and some.
死亡7000人左右。
Wait, what were the squid ones?
等等，鱿鱼是什么？
People didn't believe in squid, right?
人们不相信鱿鱼，对吗？
Squid was just an ancillary prop.
鱿鱼只是一个辅助道具。
Squid, squid came in-- Ira Glass We were having squid and I realized--?
鱿鱼，鱿鱼进来了——艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）我们正在吃鱿鱼，我意识到——？
Well, one of the ones I read, was the guy was writing it and had recorded it in a deep sea submersible.
嗯，我读到的其中一个是那个人正在写它并在深海潜水器中记录它。
He was working, I think, for Greenpeace and he was in the Arctic ocean.
我认为他正在为绿色和平组织工作，而且他在北冰洋。
And he was looking out the window and seeing squid and writing his essay.
他一边看着窗外，一边看到鱿鱼，一边写论文。
That guy, of course, wrote about how he believed in cocktail sauce.
当然，那家伙写了他如何相信鸡尾酒酱。
Not really.
并不真地。
The big things that came up over and over in the essays that people sent in were really exactly what you would expect.
人们寄来的文章中一遍又一遍地出现的大事确实正如你所期望的那样。
People believe in kindness, and the Golden Rule, tolerance, social justice, love, hard work, humility.
人们相信善良、黄金法则、宽容、社会正义、爱、努力工作、谦逊。
By the fourth year of the This I Believe series, it got a lot harder to get on the air-- if you believed in kindness.
到了“我相信”系列的第四年，如果你相信善良，那么播出就变得更加困难了。
Now, I don't want you to get mean about people.
现在，我不希望你对别人表现出刻薄的态度。
Are there some where you and your team read the essays and you just wonder like, "Wow, what were they thinking?"
是否有一些地方，您和您的团队在阅读这些文章时，您只是想知道，“哇，他们在想什么？”
There've been some written by people of-- who are very advantaged.
有些文章是由非常有优势的人写的。
And they've written about why they deserve their advantages.
他们还写下了为什么他们值得拥有这些优势。
And those are somewhat shocking to me.
这些让我有些震惊。
And--
还有——
Teenagers with money sometimes write about how they deserve it.
有钱的青少年有时会写下他们是如何应得的。
I was searching for one actually today, and I remembered that they'd mentioned like a BMW, I think in it.
我今天实际上正在寻找一辆，我记得他们提到过像宝马，我想在其中。
So I just did a search on BMW, but then I started scanning them, and a lot of people wrote about a belief in their car.
所以我只是搜索了宝马，然后我开始扫描它们，很多人写下了对他们的汽车的信念。
In the brand of car they had.
他们拥有的汽车品牌。
Those essays take me aback a little bit.
这些文章让我有点吃惊。
One of the essays about cars, the person said, "I believe in having a car as cute as I am." And she believed she was much cuter than her car, her current car.
在一篇关于汽车的文章中，该人士说道，“我相信拥有一辆像我一样可爱的汽车。”她相信她比她的车、她现在的车可爱得多。
And so she believed that-- I forget whether it was a BMW or an Audi-- but that was the car that she--
所以她相信——我忘了那是一辆宝马还是奥迪——但那是她的车——
Jay says that it's become a popular thing to assign This I Believe essays to kids in high school.
杰伊说，给高中孩子布置《我相信》论文已经成为一种流行的做法。
There's a whole curriculum around it.
有一整套围绕它的课程。
And it is clear a lot of the kids do not want to do the essays.
很明显很多孩子不想写论文。
Some of them just seem to look around the room and just pick something-- "I believe in pencils,"-- and then start writing.
他们中的一些人似乎只是环顾房间，然后挑选一些东西——“我相信铅笔”——然后开始写作。
There are schools all over this country who are using This I Believe.
全国各地的学校都在使用“This I Believe”。
There is a generation of children who are going to curse our names.
有一代孩子将会咒骂我们的名字。
That's right.
这是正确的。
They're hearing you on the radio right now.
他们现在正在广播中听到你的声音。
They're sitting in the backseat of the car and then, "Oh, my God.
他们坐在汽车后座上，然后，“哦，天哪。
That's the guy!
就是那个家伙！
Oh, I hate that guy."
哦，我讨厌那个家伙。”
I know.
我知道。
I hate that show, I can't even believe.
我讨厌那个节目，我什至不敢相信。
We had a kid writing about how he thought he was too cool.
我们有一个孩子写了他如何认为自己太酷了。
He thought everybody, all his friends, were too cool.
他认为每个人，他所有的朋友，都太酷了。
They were too cool to be, like, courteous.
他们太酷了，没有礼貌。
They were too cool to like things.
他们太酷了，不喜欢任何东西。
They just wanted to be critical.
他们只是想批评。
And he said-- but secretly he didn't want to be like that.
他说——但私下里他不想成为那样。
And he said, "And the way I'm going to start stopping to be like that is, I'm going to write this essay.
他说：“我要开始停止这样的方式就是，我要写这篇文章。
Because it's not cool to do."
因为这样做并不酷。”
NPR News is going to run its last This I Believe later this month.
NPR 新闻将于本月晚些时候播出最后一期《我相信》。
They run the series for four years, which is the same length as the original Murrow series.
他们运行该系列四年，与原始默罗系列的长度相同。
A lot of the best This I Believes, a lot of the ones that I like the best, are actually This I Used to Believes.
很多我所相信的最好的，很多我最喜欢的，实际上都是我曾经相信的。
These are people basically talking about how they have changed and what's made them change.
这些人基本上在谈论他们是如何改变的以及是什么让他们改变的。
Like there's one by a nurse practitioner named Courtney Davis who talked about how early in her career, when patients would go through something really horrible and sad, she was one of those nurses who would try to keep things upbeat.
就像一位名叫考特尼·戴维斯 (Courtney Davis) 的执业护士所写的那样，她谈到在她职业生涯的早期，当病人经历一些非常可怕和悲伤的事情时，她是那些试图让事情保持乐观的护士之一。
She would keep her voice upbeat.
她会保持乐观的语气。
And she would actually try to stay cheerful.
她实际上会努力保持快乐。
And even when her own mom, she writes in this essay, was dying in the hospital, she continued that way.
她在这篇文章中写道，即使她自己的妈妈在医院里濒临死亡，她也继续这样做。
Saying goodbye to her mom in that cheery nurse voice that she practiced her whole life.
用她练习了一辈子的护士般欢快的声音向妈妈告别。
I didn't know then that I could have climbed into bed and held her.
那时我不知道我可以爬上床抱住她。
That I should have wailed when she was gone.
当她离开时我应该哭泣。
I no longer comfort others with false cheer.
我不再用虚假的欢呼来安慰别人。
So, I'm wondering you work in radio, and I work in radio.
所以，我想知道你在广播工作，我也在广播工作。
How come we haven't heard from you on what you believe?
为什么我们没有收到你关于你的信仰的消息？
How come you haven't done an essay for us?
你怎么还没给我们写论文呢？
Well, actually I mean it's funny.
嗯，实际上我的意思是这很有趣。
I think that I don't-- I say this and it's going to sound a little more dramatic than I mean it.
我认为我不——我这么说，听起来比我的意思更戏剧化。
But I'm not sure I believe anything, in that way, that would make for an essay.
但我不确定我是否相信任何可以构成一篇论文的东西。
But did you ever, did you ever sit down-- or do you just sort of ask yourself rhetorically from time to time?
但是你有没有坐下来——或者你只是时不时地问自己一下？
I ask myself whenever I hear the series.
每当我听到这个系列时，我都会问自己。
I hear you on the radio and I think, how come I'm not on Jay's series?
我在广播中听到你的声音，我想，为什么我没有参加杰伊的系列节目？
Like, how come I'm not doing This I Believe?
就像，我为什么不做“我相信的事”？
Are you sure you're not just giving up too easily though?
你确定你不会轻易放弃吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I think I'm one of those people where like, I had a lot of really strong beliefs about stuff when I was a kid, and I like had a religious phase, and then I had a very strong, like, atheist phase and then I had a very political phase.
我想我是这样的人之一，当我还是个孩子的时候，我对事物有很多非常强烈的信念，我喜欢有一个宗教阶段，然后我有一个非常强烈的无神论阶段，然后我有一个非常政治的阶段。
And I was like politically correct for years.
多年来我一直保持政治正确。
I mean the kind of politically correct where like, when I was in my 20s I went to Nicaragua and I called it Nikh-a-RAH-hua.
我指的是那种政治正确，比如，当我 20 多岁的时候，我去了尼加拉瓜，我称之为 Nikh-a-RAH-hua。
And you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
Like, I was horrible.
就像，我很可怕。
And--
还有——
Did you call it Nikh-a-Rah-hua on the radio, too?
你在广播里也叫它 Nikh-a-Rah-hua 吗？
Ah no. I knew better than that.
啊不。我比那更清楚。
At least I knew better than that.
至少我比那更清楚。
But you know I mean?
但你知道我的意思吗？
Like, and then, just like, I got older and I saw that things seemed more complicated than the way that I'd believed them.
就像，然后，就像，我长大了，我发现事情似乎比我想象的更复杂。
And when I poll myself, I'm like, what do I believe in?
当我对自己进行民意调查时，我会想，我相信什么？
Well I believe that listening to the radio in the car is the best place to listen to the radio.
嗯，我相信在车里听广播是最好的听广播的地方。
I've got that.
我已经知道了。
But that doesn't seem like it's worthy of your series.
但这似乎不值得你的系列。
I think it's true.
我认为这是真的。
I can defend it, but--.
我可以捍卫它，但是——。
How about if something bad happened?
如果发生不好的事情怎么办？
Is there something you'd cling to?
有什么东西是你想坚持的吗？
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ira Glass I mean, I take comfort in the thought that when things seem really sad it's a comfort to me that well, everybody's going to go through this.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：我的意思是，当事情看起来真的很悲伤时，我会感到安慰，这对我来说是一种安慰，每个人都会经历这个。
Everybody's gone through this.
每个人都经历过这个。
And the problem is that, like, it's too much of a set of truisms to actually be good enough for your series.
问题是，这一套老生常谈太多了，实际上不足以适合你的系列。
But your show is always looking for a conflict, and something to happen, and for something to change.
但你的节目总是在寻找冲突，寻找发生的事情，寻找改变的事情。
I mean, maybe even this show is going to be about how something changes.
我的意思是，也许这个节目也会讲述一些事情如何改变。
So, possibly you're not interested in things that are static and enduring.
因此，您可能对静态和持久的事物不感兴趣。
No, I think that's true.
不，我认为这是真的。
It's funny like I think that's why I like This I Used to Believe.
很有趣，我想这就是为什么我喜欢《我曾经相信》。
I'm much more attracted to that than to This I Believe because it just has the feeling of like, people are changing.
我对它比《我相信》更感兴趣，因为它给人一种感觉，人们正在改变。
And for me, drama is more interesting than ideas in a way.
对我来说，戏剧在某种程度上比想法更有趣。
It's funny, I didn't even know I thought that until now I'm saying, that but I think it's true.
有趣的是，我什至不知道我这么想，直到现在我才这么说，但我认为这是真的。
Maybe you believe in that.
也许你相信这一点。
Ira Glass And there's my essay.
艾拉·格拉斯 这是我的论文。
You are the master.
你是主人。
I'm just an editor, man.
我只是一名编辑，伙计。
Ira Glass Well, today on our program as I said before, This I Used to Believe .
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）好吧，今天在我们的节目中，正如我之前所说，我曾经相信这一点。
Our show today in four acts.
我们今天的演出分四幕。
Act One.
第一幕。
Scrambled Nest Egg.
炒储备蛋。
About a kid, his parents, and their constant companion.
关于一个孩子、他的父母和他们忠实的伴侣。
Yes, the US economy.
是的，美国经济。
Act Two.
第二幕。
Team Spirit in the Sky.
天空中的团队精神。
A Texas football coach gets called out on an unusual mission.
一名德克萨斯州橄榄球教练被调去执行一项不寻常的任务。
Act Three.
第三幕。
Me Thinks Thou Doth Protest Too Much.
我认为你抗议得太多了。
In this case, the me of Me thinks is a teenage girl.
在这种情况下，我认为的我是一个十几岁的女孩。
And the one doing the protesting is her mom.
抗议的人是她的妈妈。
Act Four.
第四幕。
Pants Pants Revelation.
裤子 裤子启示录。
In which we ask the question-- Can two people destroy their chances at love with one pair of pants?
其中我们提出一个问题——两个人会因为一条裤子而毁掉他们爱情的机会吗？
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One: Scrambled Nest Egg Ira Glass Act One.
第一幕：炒巢蛋艾拉玻璃 第一幕。
Scrambled Nest Egg.
炒储备蛋。
Sometimes you don't even realize you believe something until circumstances change in a way that destroys that belief.
有时，你甚至没有意识到自己相信某件事，直到环境发生变化，摧毁了这种信念。
Alex French went to visit his parents in Massachusetts for a couple days last month.
亚历克斯·弗伦奇上个月去马萨诸塞州探望父母几天。
We'll go to Cumberland Farms.
我们要去坎伯兰农场。
We're going to buy some lottery tickets.
我们要去买一些彩票。
Big jackpot tonight.
今晚有大大奖。
How much?
多少？
Mrs. French Oh, over two hundred million.
弗伦奇夫人哦，两亿多。
It's sort of a cheap way of buying a dream.
这是一种购买梦想的廉价方式。
The French family bailout?
法国家庭救助？
Mrs. French Yeah, exactly the French family stimulus.
法国夫人 是的，正是法国家庭的刺激。
So--.
所以 - 。
One afternoon in early January my mother called me in the middle of the day.
一月初的一个下午，我妈妈在中午给我打电话。
I was just laid off, she told me.
她告诉我，我刚刚被解雇了。
I could tell she was on her cellphone calling from the car.
我看得出来她正在车里打电话。
For the past nine years she'd worked behind the counter of an upscale jewelry store in a mall about 20 minutes outside of Boston.
在过去的九年里，她一直在距波士顿约 20 分钟路程的一家购物中心的一家高档珠宝店的柜台后面工作。
All of the sudden, the recession was very, very real.
突然间，经济衰退变得非常非常真实。
Still, I could hear in her voice that she was relieved.
尽管如此，我还是能从她的声音中听出她松了口气。
She'd never admit it, but she hated her job.
她永远不会承认，但她讨厌她的工作。
So long as your father keeps his job, she reassured me, we're going to be just fine.
她向我保证，只要你父亲保住工作，我们就会没事的。
Less than an hour later my phone rang again.
不到一个小时后，我的电话又响了。
It was my mother.
是我的母亲。
She took a deep breath and then spoke.
她深吸了一口气，然后开口说道。
Your father has just been laid off, too.
你父亲也刚刚被解雇。
Sometimes when I think about it, it seems like something of biblical proportions.
有时当我想到这一点时，这似乎是符合圣经的。
It's like, it's crazy.
就像，这太疯狂了。
I don't know that much about the Bible, but I think there was somebody who had boils, and pestilence, and all kinds of things.
我对圣经了解不多，但我认为有人得了疖子、瘟疫和各种各样的病。
What are you talking about?
你在说什么？
Mrs. French Talking about how I feel some days.
弗伦奇夫人谈论我这些天的感受。
That everything just happened at once.
一切都突然发生了。
It was like anything bad that could happen to me or anybody I knew happened.
这就像任何可能发生在我或我认识的人身上的坏事一样。
So.
所以。
I used to believe that recessions only affected people in faraway places like Detroit, Sacramento.
我曾经认为经济衰退只会影响底特律、萨克拉门托等遥远地方的人们。
I used to believe that my father would work until the day he turned 65 and then stop.
我曾经相信我的父亲会工作到65岁那一天，然后就停下来。
There'd be some sort of retirement party and then the next day my parents would move to Clearwater, Florida.
会有某种退休聚会，然后第二天我的父母就会搬到佛罗里达州的克利尔沃特。
Where Dad would play golf and Mom would power walk.
爸爸会在那里打高尔夫球，妈妈会在那里散步。
I never imagined that they could be so vulnerable.
我从来没有想到他们会如此脆弱。
I never thought I might have to support my parents.
我从来没有想过我可能要赡养我的父母。
It was inconceivable that they might someday have to move in with me because they could no longer pay their mortgage.
难以想象他们有一天可能会因为无力支付抵押贷款而不得不搬来和我住在一起。
All that changed when my mom called.
当我妈妈打来电话时，一切都改变了。
My parents were both 59 years old and for 30 years they've done everything right.
我的父母都已经 59 岁了，30 年来他们所做的一切都是正确的。
Saved money and paid the mortgage on time.
省了钱并按时还清了抵押贷款。
When I went back to check on them, everything looked the same.
当我回去查看它们时，一切看起来都一样。
They still have their house and their cars, but there's a sense of danger looming.
他们仍然拥有房子和汽车，但有一种危险迫在眉睫的感觉。
A sense that if this thing goes on for much longer, my parents' lives might change drastically.
我感觉如果这种情况持续更长时间，我父母的生活可能会发生巨大的变化。
You know, I talked to some people about actually going short term over to Iraq.
你知道，我和一些人谈论过短期前往伊拉克的事情。
My father has always worked as an engineer.
我父亲一直是一名工程师。
Civil, environmental, hazardous materials, you name it.
民用、环境、危险材料，应有尽有。
Tom French has done at all.
汤姆·弗伦奇已经做到了。
Go to a mall in the Northeast and there's a pretty good chance that my father helped build it.
去东北的一个购物中心，很有可能是我父亲帮忙建造的。
And when the economy collapsed, the market for shopping centers and high rises went with it, along with my dad's job.
当经济崩溃时，购物中心和高层建筑的市场以及我父亲的工作也随之消失。
I told myself during the train ride up there to stay positive.
在火车上我告诉自己要保持积极的态度。
They'll be fine.
他们会没事的。
You're going there for moral support.
你去那里是为了寻求道义上的支持。
But when it came down to talking to my dad about going to Iraq, he ended up comforting me.
但当我和父亲谈论去伊拉克的事情时，他最终安慰了我。
I've talked to some people who know people who've gone over there and done it.
我和一些认识的人谈过，他们曾经去过那里并做过这件事。
And it's not near as bad as you think it is.
而且它并不像你想象的那么糟糕。
Would you really consider doing that?
你真的会考虑这样做吗？
I mean is it that bad that--?
我的意思是，有那么糟糕吗——？
Well, I don't want to go to work with a helmet and a bulletproof vest on, but I'd consider it.
好吧，我不想戴着头盔和防弹背心去上班，但我会考虑一下。
Being laid off has affected both my parents so differently.
被解雇对我父母的影响截然不同。
My father, with his lifelong career, can't imagine doing anything but engineering.
我的父亲一生都在从事工程工作，他无法想象自己会从事其他职业。
He'd go all the way to Iraq or even Afghanistan to keep doing it.
他会不远万里去伊拉克甚至阿富汗继续这样做。
But my mom, on the verge of 60, as worried as she is, also sees this as her chance.
但我的妈妈，年近60，虽然很担心，但也认为这是她的机会。
Anything seems possible.
一切似乎都有可能。
Massage therapy.
按摩疗法。
TSA training.
美国运输安全管理局培训。
Jewelry making.
珠宝制作。
I'm considering maybe guidance counseling.
我正在考虑也许进行指导咨询。
The other thing I'm considering would be flower arranging.
我正在考虑的另一件事是插花。
Which, since I love to garden, that's an option.
因为我喜欢园艺，所以这是一个选择。
And-- well, we're contemplating a children's book.
而且——嗯，我们正在考虑写一本儿童读物。
And I'm hoping to work on a project about Versailles, and what I always want to see is what they don't take you to see.
我希望能从事一个关于凡尔赛宫的项目，而我一直想看到的是他们不带你看到的东西。
The rooms that have not been rehabilitated or refinished.
尚未修复或整修的房间。
And I would eventually like to go and take a look, and photograph it, and write about it.
我最终想去看看，拍照，然后写下来。
Growing up, my parents were never the types that needed to be parented.
在我的成长过程中，我的父母从来都不是那种需要被养育的人。
Our roles were well established.
我们的角色已经很明确了。
They were the parents.
他们是父母。
I was the kid.
我就是那个孩子。
Even for this visit, for example, my father insisted that I make the short trip by train when I wanted to drive, but I didn't argue.
例如，即使是这次访问，当我想开车时，我父亲也坚持让我乘火车进行短途旅行，但我没有争论。
Now that I'm here, for the first time in my life I feel like the roles are reversed.
现在我来到这里，这是我一生中第一次感觉到角色互换了。
I wanted to weigh in on everything from Iraq to the dinner menu.
我想对从伊拉克到晚餐菜单的所有事情进行权衡。
Tom, do me a favor.
汤姆，帮我一个忙。
Go on the other side and get me a container of goat cheese.
到另一边给我拿一罐山羊奶酪。
Yeah.
是的。
Goat cheese.
山羊奶酪。
Alex French Isn't that a little-- kind of a little bit of a luxury item for two unemployed folks?
Alex French：对于两个失业者来说，这不是有点奢侈吗？
Yeah, but you know it lasts for a few weeks.
是的，但你知道它会持续几周。
It's OK.
没关系。
It sort of makes-- we don't eat out at all, so it makes staying in pleasurable.
这让我们根本不出去吃饭，所以呆在家里很愉快。
And so, buying a $4.50 container of something is a lot cheaper than going out and buying and having an $8.00 salad.
因此，购买一盒 4.50 美元的东西比出去购买 8.00 美元的沙拉便宜得多。
Day-old bakery.
刚开业一天的面包店。
Alex French They're joking around, but the most shocking thing that I noticed during my visit was how little food there was in the house.
Alex French 他们在开玩笑，但我在访问期间注意到的最令人震惊的事情是房子里的食物很少。
Growing up, it was such a comfort, a feeling of plenty when you opened the refrigerator.
在我的成长过程中，当你打开冰箱时，那种感觉是如此的舒适、丰富。
Now, it's not quite like a bachelor pad refrigerator, with just an empty bottle of ketchup.
现在，它不太像单身汉的冰箱，里面只有一瓶空番茄酱。
But it's not far from that, either.
但离那也不远了。
Yeah.
是的。
No seriously, though.
不过，不是认真的。
I mean, we're still eating pretty good.
我的意思是，我们仍然吃得很好。
But if this thing goes on for an extended period, we're going to have to cut back even more.
但如果这种情况持续很长一段时间，我们将不得不进一步削减开支。
If this thing goes like four months or something and we're really ripping into savings to do that we're-- it's going to get cut back even more than it is already.
如果这件事持续四个月之类的时间，而我们真的投入了积蓄来做到这一点，那么我们将比现在削减更多。
My parents are handling this as well as they can.
我的父母正在尽力处理这件事。
It's easy to see that the worry is getting the best of my father.
很容易看出，我父亲的忧虑已经占据了上风。
He tells me he's having trouble sleeping.
他告诉我他睡眠困难。
Lays there in the dark, staring at the ceiling 'til 1:00 AM or 2:00 AM, wondering how much longer he's going to be able to pay the bills.
躺在黑暗中，盯着天花板直到凌晨 1:00 或 2:00，想知道自己还能支撑多久支付账单。
The unemployment benefits my parents receive barely cover expenses.
我父母领取的失业救济金几乎无法支付开支。
Or when he and my mom are going to have to start digging into their savings.
或者当他和我妈妈不得不开始动用他们的积蓄时。
You know we went to take a little one-hour seminar down at unemployment to talk about the benefits and about looking for jobs.
你知道，我们在失业期间参加了一个一小时的小型研讨会，讨论福利和寻找工作。
I mean is there part of you that feels like-- I mean if you did qualify for something like welfare or for food stamps, I mean, is that something that you would do?
我的意思是，你内心是否有这样的感觉——我的意思是，如果你确实有资格获得福利或食品券之类的东西，我的意思是，你会这么做吗？
Or is there a part of you that feels like, no like I'm-- I mean do you have too much pride for that, or--?
或者你内心是否有一部分感觉，不像我——我的意思是你对此太过骄傲，或者——？
No I don't think so.
不，我不这么认为。
I mean it's like the stimulus.
我的意思是这就像刺激一样。
I mean, anyway my attitude is, is with unemployment and the stimulus and all these other things.
我的意思是，无论如何，我的态度是失业和刺激以及所有其他事情。
I mean, I paid a lot of money into the system over the years.
我的意思是，这些年来我为这个系统投入了很多钱。
And I'm sure there's a lot of people that've paid more in than I have who've never taken anything out.
我确信有很多人付出的比我多，但他们却从未拿出过任何东西。
But I mean, I've paid a lot of money into this system for a lot of years so, I'm in a situation, I didn't do anything wrong.
但我的意思是，多年来我已经在这个系统中投入了很多钱，所以，我所处的情况，我没有做错任何事情。
I'm in a situation where I need some of that back now to get me through a tough spot.
我现在的处境是需要一些恢复来帮助我度过难关。
And if I'm entitled to something by the law, then I'll take it.
如果法律规定我有权获得某些东西，那么我就会接受它。
Why not?
为什么不呢？
When you say I didn't do anything wrong, what do you mean by that?
当你说我没有做错事时，你是什么意思？
I didn't do anything wrong.
我没有做错任何事。
I went to work every day.
我每天都去上班。
I worked hard.
我努力工作。
I did a good job.
我做得很好。
Obeyed the law.
遵守法律。
I paid my taxes.
我缴了税。
I did everything I was supposed to do.
我做了我应该做的一切。
I didn't do anything wrong.
我没有做错任何事。
This is a painful process we're going through now, but it will be over.
这是我们现在正在经历的一个痛苦的过程，但它将会结束。
We decided we would tell people that we were retired.
我们决定告诉人们我们已经退休了。
And when we go back to work, we'll tell them, well we didn't think retirement was so great, so we thought we could go back to work.
当我们回去工作时，我们会告诉他们，我们认为退休并不是那么美好，所以我们认为我们可以回去工作。
At this point, they don't need me to step in and say anything.
此时，他们不需要我介入并说什么。
I should stay calm, offer support, shut up.
我应该保持冷静，提供支持，闭嘴。
I don't tell them that I'm also losing sleep worrying about them.
我没有告诉他们我也因为担心他们而失眠。
All weekend it's hard to know what to pay for.
整个周末都很难知道该付什么钱。
I don't even try to step in and pay at the grocery store.
我什至不会尝试走进杂货店付款。
But they let me take them out for dinner and two lunches, and I pick up some odds and ends for them at the Family Dollar.
但他们让我带他们出去吃晚餐和两顿午餐，我在 Family Dollar 给他们买了一些零碎的东西。
I buy their lottery tickets, too.
我也买他们的彩票。
Alex French in New York.
亚历克斯·弗伦奇在纽约。
[MUSIC - "WORRIED MAN" BY JOHNNY CASH]
[音乐 - 约翰尼·卡什的《忧心忡忡的人》]
Just before Christmas the coach of a high school football team in Texas did something that football coaches pretty much never do.
就在圣诞节前夕，德克萨斯州一支高中橄榄球队的教练做了一件橄榄球教练几乎从未做过的事情。
He urged half the parents at his school one Friday night to root for the other team.
一个周五晚上，他敦促学校一半的家长为另一支球队加油。
And they did it.
他们做到了。
His school was a Christian high school called Grapevine Faith.
他的学校是一所基督教高中，名为格雷普韦恩信仰高中。
The other team was made of juvenile offenders from the high school at a state penitentiary.
另一队由州立监狱高中的少年犯组成。
Kids whose families never came out to games.
家人从不出来参加比赛的孩子。
Lots of people in these kids' lives had given up on them.
这些孩子生活中的很多人都放弃了他们。
But this one night, hundreds of parents and kids learned their names and rooted for them when they made their plays, and actually rooted against their own team.
但这一晚，数百名家长和孩子们知道了他们的名字，并在他们表演时为他们加油，实际上是反对他们自己的球队。
These kids from the penitentiary ran onto the field through a spirit line.
这些来自监狱的孩子们通过一根精神绳跑到了球场上。
You know that thing where there are two lines of fans?
你知道那儿有两排粉丝吗？
They had cheerleaders cheering for them.
他们有啦啦队为他们加油。
This clip is from a TV story done by the NBC affiliate in Dallas-Fort Worth.
该剪辑来自 NBC 达拉斯-沃斯堡附属机构制作的电视故事。
I want you all to line up in line, they're making a spirit line.
我希望你们都排队，他们正在排成一条精神队列。
I like say, what cousin, what'd you say?
我喜欢说，什么表弟，你说什么？
Can you repeat that?
你能再说一遍吗？
When I ran through this like I felt like it was just like something like angels or something that's all I felt cause I was just running through as fast as I can I just feel the wind rushing my face.
当我跑过这个地方时，我感觉就像天使一样，或者这就是我的全部感觉，因为我只是以最快的速度跑过，我只感觉到风吹过我的脸。
That feeling of being unleashed lasted throughout the game and so did the cheers.
这种被释放的感觉贯穿整场比赛，欢呼声也一直持续着。
I remember when was making like a play, I made a tackle and people yelling my name, I'm like, I don't even know these people.
我记得当我踢球的时候，我铲球了，人们大喊我的名字，我想，我什至不认识这些人。
This story became one of those things that people linked to all over the internet, talked about on discussion boards, that thousands of moms forwarded to thousands of grown kids all over this country.
这个故事成为人们在互联网上链接、在讨论板上讨论的事情之一，成千上万的妈妈将其转发给全国各地成千上万的成年孩子。
And it got lots of press.
它得到了很多媒体的关注。
The coach from the Christian school was on ESPN and the 700 Club, and all kinds of radio and TV.
来自基督教学校的教练出现在 ESPN 和 700 Club 以及各种广播和电视上。
The NFL Commissioner invited him to be his guest at the Super Bowl.
NFL 专员邀请他作为超级碗的嘉宾。
And on Christmas morning, a woman named Trisha Sebastian saw a link and read about it in Rick Reilly's ESPN column online.
圣诞节早上，一位名叫 Trisha Sebastian 的女士看到了一个链接，并在 Rick Reilly 的 ESPN 在线专栏中阅读了相关内容。
She was alone.
她独自一人。
Her family was on the other side of the country.
她的家人在国家的另一边。
She was in an apartment in New York filled with her own moving boxes, in the kind of mood where this just got to her.
她在纽约的一间公寓里，里面堆满了她自己的搬家箱子，她的心情就是这样。
One of the details from the story that just really killed me was that when they go back to the school, they got to be shackled when they get into the bus.
这个故事中真正杀了我的细节之一是，当他们回到学校时，他们上公共汽车时必须戴上手铐。
That they had to go into handcuffs when they get on the bus.
他们上车时必须戴上手铐。
Handcuffs, when they get back into the bus.
当他们回到公交车上时，戴上手铐。
And so she decided to write an email to the coach at this Christian school who organized this nice thing for these kids.
因此，她决定给这所基督教学校的教练写一封电子邮件，教练为这些孩子们组织了这次美好的活动。
A guy named Chris Hogan.
一个叫克里斯·霍根的人。
And I said, Dear Mr. Chris Hogan.
我说，亲爱的克里斯·霍根先生。
Thank you for being a good inspirational leader to your players and to your players' fans by encouraging them to think of those who are less fortunate than they.
感谢您成为球员和球员球迷的优秀鼓舞人心的领导者，鼓励他们想想那些比他们不幸的人。
I'm a very lapsed Catholic, leaning towards agnosticism, who has seen too many people who claim to be Christians behaving in a very un-Christian way.
我是一个非常堕落的天主教徒，倾向于不可知论，我见过太多自称基督徒的人以非常不基督教的方式行事。
You are one of those bright few who embody what being Christian means.
您是少数体现基督徒意义的聪明人之一。
And I'm glad that you're in a place where you can show young children an example of being a good Christian.
我很高兴您能向年幼的孩子们展示成为一名好基督徒的榜样。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Now there's a time stamp on that because it's an email.
现在上面有一个时间戳，因为它是一封电子邮件。
What time did you send that?
你什么时间发的？
And that afternoon, much to her wondering eyes did appear a reply, time stamped 12:09 PM.
那天下午，在她好奇的目光中，确实出现了回复，时间标记为中午 12:09。
So he wrote to me, and this is what he said, "Thank you so much for your kind words.
所以他写信给我，他是这样说的：“非常感谢你的好话。
Trisha, I've received literally hundreds of emails over the past few days.
特丽莎，过去几天我收到了数百封电子邮件。
And yours is the first I've responded to.
你的问题是我第一个回复的。
Yours reached out of my computer and gripped my heart.
你的手从我的电脑里伸出来，抓住了我的心。
When I read it, my spirit was pressed to answer you first, when I'd read that you were leaning towards agnosticism because of the actions of Christians.
当我读到它时，当我读到你因为基督徒的行为而倾向于不可知论时，我的精神被迫首先回答你。
"Let me encourage you to not make a judgment about God, based on the actions of men.
“让我鼓励你不要根据人的行为来判断上帝。
My heart is heavy to think of you walking away from a God who loves you so much.
想到你离开一位如此爱你的上帝，我的心情很沉重。
Trisha, would you consider speaking, even if it's by email, about the idea of God?
特丽莎，你会考虑谈论上帝的想法吗？即使是通过电子邮件？
I do not think your sending me the email was coincidence.
我不认为你给我发这封电子邮件是巧合。
I expect to hear back from you, young lady.
我期待收到你的回复，年轻的女士。
Thanks again for your exhortation.
再次感谢您的劝诫。
Bless you."
祝福你。”
It's interesting that at the end he gets all-- right back to me young lady, like you're one of the kids in his program.
有趣的是，最后他得到了一切——年轻的女士，就像你是他计划中的孩子之一一样。
Yeah, I know.
是的，我知道。
Which I thought was kind of cute.
我觉得这很可爱。
She wasn't really sure, though, if she wanted to hear his pitch about Christianity.
不过，她不太确定是否想听他谈论基督教。
But she thought that at least she owed him the courtesy of a reply.
但她想，至少她应该给他一个礼貌的答复。
So she wrote back.
于是她回信了。
Mainly to clarify that she hadn't become agnostic because she'd met hypocritical Christians.
主要是为了澄清她并没有因为遇到了伪善的基督徒而变得不可知论。
She didn't think so badly of Christians.
她对基督徒的看法并不坏。
She told him that she'd been raised Catholic and she really did used to believe in God.
她告诉他，她是天主教徒，她确实曾经相信上帝。
But she started questioning her faith three years ago, when a close friend of hers named Kelly, who was just 32, was diagnosed and very quickly died of colon cancer.
但三年前，她开始质疑自己的信仰，当时她年仅 32 岁的好友凯利 (Kelly) 被诊断出患有结肠癌，并很快去世。
Tricia wrote this long heartfelt email explaining all this, in which she politely declined the coach's offer and closed with quote, "Thank you again for being such a good man and a good Christian." And that was that.
特里西娅写了一封长长的、衷心的电子邮件，解释了这一切，她在邮件中礼貌地拒绝了教练的提议，并以一句话结束：“再次感谢你是一个如此好的人和一个好的基督徒。”就是这样。
Until three weeks later, Coach Hogan wrote to her again.
直到三周后，霍根教练再次给她写信。
"I know we had finished our conversation," he said.
“我知道我们已经结束了谈话，”他说。
And he'd been fine with that.
他对此很满意。
But there was a snag.
但有一个障碍。
God kept waking him up in the middle of the night, putting her very sincere emails into his head.
上帝不断地在半夜叫醒他，把她非常真诚的邮件放进他的脑海里。
"I have tried to ignore it for several weeks," he wrote.
“几周来我一直试图忽略它，”他写道。
"But I need some sleep.
“但我需要睡一会儿。
In prayer this morning, I decided this isn't going away until I make contact with you.
在今天早上的祈祷中，我决定在与您取得联系之前，这种情况不会消失。
I know God has put something on my heart to tell you."
我知道上帝在我心里放了一些话来告诉你。”
Trisha did not know what to do.
特丽莎不知道该怎么办。
ever since her friend died, her religious beliefs were set.
自从她的朋友去世后，她的宗教信仰就固定了。
I'd pretty much thought like-- come to the conclusion that there's no God out there.
我几乎想得出这样的结论：那里不存在上帝。
Things happen.
事情发生了。
This thing happened, and is nothing special.
这件事发生了，并没有什么特别的。
I didn't really-- didn't want to get into it.
我真的不想参与其中。
It's like part of what made life after Kelly's death a little more bearable was knowing that it just happened.
凯利死后的生活变得更容易忍受，部分原因就在于知道这一切刚刚发生。
That there was no reason why.
没有理由。
And was part of it this guy saying to you, OK God has been talking to me about you and he's waking me up in the middle of the night, and was there part of you thinking like, oh no, like what if that's real?
这个人对你说，好吧，上帝一直在和我谈论你，他在半夜叫醒我，你是否也有这样的想法，哦不，如果这是真的怎么办？
Like, what if this is actually the way that God is trying to get to me?
就像，如果这实际上是上帝试图接近我的方式怎么办？
Yeah, I mean like a lot of it's like, oh crap, what's he going to say?
是的，我的意思是很多事情就像，哦糟糕，他会说什么？
Here's this guy who is a stranger, who's telling me, "God has something to say to you." OK, you can sometimes ignore your friends, but like not this.
这个陌生人告诉我：“上帝有话要对你说。”好吧，有时你可以忽略你的朋友，但不能这样。
This is kind of weird, you know?
这有点奇怪，你知道吗？
What was especially weird is that Coach Hogan was basically just this random guy from the news.
特别奇怪的是霍根教练基本上就是新闻中随机出现的一个人。
Trisha said that it was like, as if Captain "Sully", who landed that US Air flight on the Hudson, suddenly called her up to say God told him to especially save her.
特丽莎说，这就像将美国航空航班降落在哈德逊河上的机长“萨利”突然打电话给她，说上帝让他特别拯救她。
And finally, Trisha decides that she's going to do it.
最后，特丽莎决定这么做。
And asked Coach Hogan if he would be willing to let her tape this conversation, and maybe play a little bit of it here on the radio.
并询问霍根教练是否愿意让她录下这段对话，也许还可以在广播中播放一点。
The coach feels that it's his mission to witness for God wherever he can.
教练觉得自己的使命就是尽其所能为上帝作见证。
He sees his work in the high school as part of that.
他将高中的工作视为其中的一部分。
He teaches Sunday school.
他教主日学。
He talks about God with people all the time, he says.
他说，他一直与人们谈论上帝。
So he had no problem with that all.
所以他对这一切没有任何问题。
So, these two people with very different beliefs got on the phone together.
于是，这两个信仰截然不同的人就通了电话。
This is Chris Hogan.
这是克里斯·霍根。
Trisha Sebastian Chris Hi!
特丽莎·塞巴斯蒂安·克里斯嗨！
This is Trisha, how do you doing?
我是特丽莎，你好吗？
Hey Trisha how are you?
嘿，特丽莎，你好吗？
Trisha Sebastian I'm OK.
特丽莎·塞巴斯蒂安 我很好。
So, the reason why I really wanted to talk to you is because you had mentioned that God was speaking to you and telling you that you needed to talk to me.
所以，我真正想和你说话的原因是因为你提到上帝正在对你说话并告诉你你需要和我说话。
I'm just wondering what you think God's message to me right now is.
我只是想知道你认为上帝现在给我的信息是什么。
OK.
好的。
Well, it's interesting because your email, as soon as I read it, my gut just turned over and I could just feel pressed in my spirit.
嗯，这很有趣，因为你的电子邮件，我一读到它，我的心就翻腾起来，我感觉精神上受到了压力。
And later that night, in the middle of the night, I had this really strange dream.
那天晚上，半夜，我做了一个非常奇怪的梦。
And I woke up and there was your email in my head, and I thought well, that's strange.
当我醒来时，你的电子邮件出现在我的脑海中，我想，这很奇怪。
So I go back to sleep and it happens about three hours later.
所以我回去睡觉，大约三个小时后就发生了。
He continued to wake me up and what's interesting?
他继续叫醒我，有什么有趣的吗？
He kept waking me up at the exact same time.
他总是在同一时间叫醒我。
Wait, what time?
等等，什么时间？
Chris Hogan He kept waking me up every single night at 1:30.
Chris Hogan 他每天晚上 1:30 都会叫醒我。
Every single night.
每个晚上。
And the interesting thing is when I would ignore it, he'd wake me up again at 4:04 in the morning.
有趣的是，当我忽略它时，他会在凌晨 4:04 再次叫醒我。
OK that's kind of weird because for the last couple of weeks, I've been waking up at 3:00 in the morning for no reason at all.
好吧，这有点奇怪，因为在过去的几周里，我一直在凌晨 3:00 无缘无故地醒来。
Yeah.
是的。
It's interesting because the longer I prayed about it, I felt like that he was trying to get me to tell you that everybody has faith in something.
这很有趣，因为我为此祈祷的时间越长，我觉得他试图让我告诉你每个人都对某些事情有信心。
And if you don't have faith in like the biblical idea of God, then you must have faith in something else that you think, well then this is true.
如果你不相信圣经中上帝的观念，那么你必须相信你认为的其他东西，那么这是真的。
And I think my spirit is just telling me to tell you, don't settle for that.
我想我的灵魂只是告诉我要告诉你，不要满足于此。
For the next hour, Coach Hogan tried to convince Trisha that God exists using all kinds of arguments.
在接下来的一个小时里，霍根教练试图通过各种论证让特丽莎相信上帝的存在。
The first and second laws of thermodynamics.
热力学第一定律和第二定律。
And arguing against the Big Bang, and evolution.
并反对大爆炸和进化论。
It was the kind of conversation that led, sort of inevitably, to questions like why does God give us free will to believe in him or not?
这种对话不可避免地会引发一些问题，比如为什么上帝给我们自由意志来相信他或不相信他？
Or this snippet will capture some of the tone of things for you.
或者这个片段将为您捕捉一些事物的基调。
They're talking about whether the Bible is right when it says that some things are objectively good, and some things are objectively true, and other things are objectively evil.
他们谈论的是圣经是否正确，圣经说有些事客观上是善的，有些事客观上是真的，而另一些事客观上是恶的。
Some things are just wrong.
有些事情就是错的。
If you say good is only people's opinion.
如果你说好只是人们的看法。
It stems from our own-- you define true for you and I define true for me, then how do you reconcile that with Hitler saying it is true that if we can eliminate Jews and other people on the planet that it'll be a better planet because we're a superior race.
它源于我们自己的——你对你定义“真实”，我对我定义“真实”，那么你如何将这一点与希特勒所说的相一致，如果我们能够消灭犹太人和地球上的其他人，地球将变得更好，因为我们是一个优越的种族。
And of course he gets his worldview from Charles Darwin.
当然，他的世界观是从查尔斯·达尔文那里得到的。
So if Mother Teresa gets to choose good and Hitler gets to choose good, who's right?
那么，如果特蕾莎修女选择善良，而希特勒选择善良，谁是对的呢？
I'm sitting here listening to you.
我坐在这里听你说话。
Up until you brought out Hitler I was completely with you all the way, and all of a sudden you're throwing Hitler out, and I'm all-- and I'm thinking to myself, where is he going with this?
在你提出希特勒之前，我一直完全支持你，突然之间，你把希特勒赶了出去，我就——我在想，他到底要做什么？
How can I--
我怎样才能——
Well, and you know how I brought Hitler out?
嗯，你知道我是怎么把希特勒带出来的吗？
I'm just using your logic.
我只是用你的逻辑。
Yeah, but did you have to go all the way out there?
是的，但是你必须一路走下去吗？
And I'm trying to demonstrate that what you're saying doesn't work.
我正试图证明你所说的行不通。
When you take it to its logical conclusion, what you're saying doesn't work.
当你得出逻辑结论时，你所说的就行不通了。
When Trisha tries to talk about her friend Kelly, and how her faith changed when Kelly got cancer, Coach Hogan tells her about his Aunt Gina, who had faith.
当特丽莎试图谈论她的朋友凯利，以及凯利得癌症后她的信仰如何改变时，霍根教练向她讲述了他有信仰的阿姨吉娜。
And when she got cervical cancer, it miraculously went away.
当她得了宫颈癌后，它奇迹般地消失了。
Somehow, a lady who was "over 90% dead", quote unquote, now has not one ounce of cancer.
不知何故，一位“死亡率超过 90%”的女士，现在没有一盎司的癌症。
OK, so my question is why did your aunt survive and my friend die?
好吧，所以我的问题是为什么你的阿姨活了下来，而我的朋友却死了？
OK.
好的。
Now let me tell you this, Trisha.
现在让我告诉你这一点，特丽莎。
Do not, for an instance, believe anybody who can tell you why that is.
例如，不要相信任何可以告诉你原因的人。
Including me, any pastor, any priest, anybody, because that is an area designed for God.
包括我，任何牧师，任何神父，任何人，因为那是为上帝设计的领域。
But there were a lot of things that, when we found out that Kelly had cancer, I prayed.
但当我们发现凯利患有癌症时，我为很多事情祈祷。
I prayed so hard.
我如此努力地祈祷。
I prayed for-- I prayed like I've never prayed before.
我祈祷——我以前所未有的方式祈祷。
Because I was taught growing up, that if you prayed to God, God would answer your prayers.
因为我从小就被教导，如果你向上帝祈祷，上帝就会回应你的祈祷。
Did you know that's false?
你知道那是假的吗？
Let me give you a for instance.
让我给你举个例子。
Suppose I prayed today to win the lottery.
假设我今天祈祷中彩票。
He might not answer that prayer, and it might be for my own good.
他可能不会回应我的祈祷，但这可能是为了我好。
He is God.
他是神。
He knows everything, he's all powerful, he's all good, he's all knowing, he's omniscient.
他知道一切，他是全能的，他是善良的，他是全知的，他是无所不知的。
Obviously, he's superior to some Texas high school football coach, right?
显然，他比德克萨斯州的一些高中橄榄球教练要优秀，对吧？
When they finally do get off the phone, they're both friendly.
当他们最终挂断电话时，他们都很友好。
But they both also seem a little disappointed.
但他们俩似乎也都有些失望。
Trisha and I sit down to talk about how she thinks it went.
特丽莎和我坐下来谈论她的想法。
It was totally not what I expected.
这完全不是我所期望的。
I was thinking, OK, here is my chance to speak to a man who really believes in God and find out the answers to these burning questions I have.
我在想，好吧，这是我与一个真正相信上帝的人交谈的机会，并找出我这些紧迫问题的答案。
You know, I've been struggling with this grief that I feel over my friend's death.
你知道，我一直在为我朋友的死而感到的悲伤而挣扎。
And I thought that he would be able to counsel me and console me.
我以为他能够给我建议并安慰我。
And what happened instead was he basically brought out argument after argument, like he was saying that the theory of evolution is contradicted by a seventh grader's text book, and just--
相反，他基本上提出了一个又一个的论点，就像他说进化论与七年级学生的教科书相矛盾一样，只是——
Oh, I see.
哦，我明白了。
He was trying to argue with you about the existence of God instead of trying to comfort you.
他试图与你争论上帝的存在，而不是试图安慰你。
Yeah.
是的。
I think that was it.
我想就是这样。
There were times when I'd completely warmed up to him, and then he says stuff like what he said earlier about how Hitler and truth-- One of the jokes that a lot of my friends have is that the minute you pull Hitler out in any argument, you automatically lose.
有时候我对他完全热情起来，然后他就会说一些像他之前所说的关于希特勒和真相如何的事情——我很多朋友都开的一个玩笑是，一旦你在任何争论中把希特勒拉出来，你就自动失败了。
And that completely turned me off towards him.
这让我彻底对他失去了兴趣。
And now I'm still left with all these questions.
现在我仍然留下所有这些问题。
Is there any small part of you that thought he might be able to put the religious message in some way that would finally make sense to you?
你是否有一小部分认为他可能能够以某种最终对你有意义的方式传达宗教信息？
Like he would say to you--
就像他会对你说的那样——
I was-- yeah.
我是——是的。
Ira Glass You did hope that?
艾拉·格拉斯 你确实希望如此吗？
I really did hope that.
我确实希望如此。
Deep down, and I've said this to so many friends of mine, I really want to believe again.
在内心深处，我已经对很多朋友说过这句话，我真的很想再次相信。
So you did want him to bring you back to God?
所以你确实希望他把你带回上帝身边？
Maybe.
也许吧。
Possibly.
可能吧。
Most likely.
最有可能的是。
Ira Glass But just the way he was doing it wasn't a way that really talked to you?
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：但是他这样做的方式并不能真正与你交谈？
No. no. Ira Glass I wonder if the problem with that was just the way he was going about it and the arguments he was using.
不，不。艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）我想知道问题是否在于他处理问题的方式和他所使用的论点。
Or I wonder if really there's nothing anybody could actually say to make you believe this thing that now you find yourself not believing?
或者我想知道是否真的没有人可以说任何话让你相信现在你发现自己不相信的事情？
I don't know.
我不知道。
If someone were to just tell me, this is why Kelly died and they were able to relate it back to God, I would probably respond to that better.
如果有人告诉我，这就是凯利去世的原因，并且他们能够将其与上帝联系起来，我可能会更好地回应。
And then when you asked him this, what did he say?
然后当你问他这个问题时，他说什么？
We never got to that point.
我们从未达到这一点。
We never got to that point.
我们从未达到这一点。
I couldn't get him there.
我无法把他带到那里。
I couldn't ask him the questions I really wanted to ask.
我无法问他我真正想问的问题。
But what if it's as simple as, for people who believe in God, God takes different people at different times.
但如果事情像相信上帝的人一样简单，上帝在不同的时间带走不同的人呢？
And that doesn't mean that God doesn't have some plan for you, you know?
这并不意味着上帝没有为你制定一些计划，你知道吗？
See that makes more sense to me than anything he ever said in our conversation.
你看，这对我来说比他在我们谈话中说过的任何话都更有意义。
Well that's very sad, because I actually don't believe in God.
嗯，这很可悲，因为我实际上不相信上帝。
Because her main question wasn't really discussed very much in that first conversation, she set up another call with Coach Hogan.
因为她的主要问题在第一次谈话中并没有得到太多讨论，所以她又与霍根教练进行了另一次通话。
And she asked him if this time I could get on the line with them, mainly just be sure that everything stayed focused and she got the actual answers that she wanted.
她问他这次我是否可以与他们通话，主要是确保一切都保持专注，并且她得到了她想要的实际答案。
Again, the coach was fine with that.
再次，教练对此表示同意。
So the reason why we're calling is because after you talked to Trisha last time, Trisha said to me that the main thing she felt like she wanted an answer to, somehow it didn't really come up.
所以我们打电话的原因是因为你上次和特丽莎谈话后，特丽莎对我说，她觉得她想要答案的主要事情，不知怎的，它并没有真正出现。
And really it comes down to her friend Kelly.
这实际上要归功于她的朋友凯利。
Sure.
当然。
Trisha Sebastian It doesn't make any sense for someone like me to still be here when someone like Kelly, who was such a good person and who spread so much good throughout the world in her small, own little way.
特丽莎·塞巴斯蒂安：对于像我这样的人来说，当像凯利这样的人这样一个好人，并以她自己的小方式将如此多的善行传播到世界各地时，这样的人还在这里是没有任何意义的。
It just doesn't make sense.
这根本没有意义。
Sure.
当然。
This is the most common question that folks who are anti-God ask.
这是反神的人最常问的问题。
I don't know if you guys know that or not, but this is the most common objection to God.
我不知道你们是否知道这一点，但这是最常见的对上帝的反对。
Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people?
为什么上帝允许坏事发生在好人身上？
You have to understand that sin entered the world through one person, Adam.
你必须明白，罪是通过一个人——亚当——进入世界的。
Now, if you read what the Bible says happened as a result of sin, every single person who's ever been born is born into sin.
现在，如果你读过圣经所说的因罪而发生的事情，就会发现每一个出生的人都是生来就有罪的。
Do you understand the Garden of Eden and the condition we have now are two different scenarios.
你知道伊甸园和我们现在的情况是两个不同的场景吗？
One was pre-sin, one is because of sin.
一种是罪前的，一种是因罪而产生的。
So I'm sorry to break this into a blunt way.
所以我很抱歉以直率的方式打破这个问题。
So you're saying that cancer is caused by sin?
那么你是说癌症是由罪引起的？
I'm saying anything on this Earth-- all the diseases, all the bad things that are here-- are a result of sin.
我想说的是，地球上的任何事情——这里所有的疾病、所有的坏事——都是罪的结果。
That's what the Bible teaches.
这就是圣经的教导。
Your friend Kelly, I'm not saying that she sinned to get cancer, I'm saying we're in a fallen world.
你的朋友凯莉，我并不是说她犯了罪而得了癌症，我是说我们生活在一个堕落的世界。
All through Trisha's conversations with the coach, I felt like I was hearing over and over why it is so hard for religious and nonreligious people to communicate sometimes.
在特丽莎与教练的整个谈话中，我觉得我一遍又一遍地听到为什么宗教人士和非宗教人士有时沟通如此困难。
The premises are just so far from each other.
各处所之间的距离很远。
When the coach says we live in a fallen world, that explanation is a comfort to him.
当教练说我们生活在一个堕落的世界时，这个解释对他来说是一种安慰。
It's comforting to think that he doesn't have to make sense about every injustice and every terrible thing that happens on this Earth.
想到他不必对地球上发生的每一个不公正和每一个可怕的事情都有意义，这令人感到欣慰。
It's messy on this Earth.
这个地球很混乱。
Things will be better in heaven.
天堂里的事情会更好。
But because God understands the details of why one person with cancer lives and another person with cancer dies, he doesn't have to.
但因为上帝了解为什么一个癌症患者能够生存而另一个癌症患者却会死亡的细节，所以他不必这样做。
And the coach has a hard time, I think, seeing why this explanation isn't a comfort to Trisha.
我认为教练很难理解为什么这个解释不能让特丽莎感到安慰。
As soon as he understood that what Trisha wanted was an explanation for Kelly's death that would help her feel better about that death, this is what he said to her.
当他明白特丽莎想要的是对凯利之死的解释，以帮助她对死亡感觉更好时，这就是他对她说的。
Well I can tell you this.
好吧，我可以告诉你这一点。
Your friend Kelly, Trisha, didn't do anything necessarily to deserve that.
你的朋友凯莉，特丽莎，并没有做任何值得得到这样的事情。
I'm not saying that in the least.
我根本不是这么说的。
But I am saying she lives in a fallen world.
但我是说她生活在一个堕落的世界里。
Well I think we all do.
嗯，我想我们都这样做。
Chris Hogan There's no question.
克里斯·霍根 毫无疑问。
There's a fallen world.
那里有一个堕落的世界。
And the world has fallen, because people have chosen evil.
世界已经堕落，因为人们选择了邪恶。
And so, as a result, sin entered the world, and with sin comes a lot of things.
结果，罪进入了世界，罪带来了很多事情。
And they're going to affect people.
它们将会影响人们。
But the great thing is, this is not where eternity rests.
但最重要的是，这不是永恒所在。
A little bit.
一点点。
I'm getting an answer.
我正在得到答案。
And it's the answer that he agrees and believes in.
这是他同意并相信的答案。
But it's-- I don't think I'm there yet.
但我想我还没到那儿。
Coach Hogan told us that he was going to feel really sad when he got off this phone call.
霍根教练告诉我们，当他接到电话时，他会感到非常难过。
But in the weeks that have followed, he has accomplished this-- Trisha has been thinking about God a lot more, she says.
但在接下来的几周里，他做到了这一点——特丽莎说，她更多地思考上帝。
She doesn't really believe just yet, but she says she's open to it.
她还不太相信，但她说她对此持开放态度。
Coming up.
即将到来。
What happens when you learn that the thing that you believe is the source of your personal power and magnetism is pretty much the opposite.
当你发现你所相信的个人力量和吸引力的源泉恰恰相反时，会发生什么。
That's in a minute.
就在一分钟之内。
From Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续进行时，来自芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台。
It's This American Life, I'm Ira Glass.
这就是美国生活，我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week in our program, of course, we choose theme and bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，在我们的节目中，我们每周都会选择主题，并为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's Show-- This I Used I Believe.
今天的节目——我相信这是我用过的。
We have stories today about people doing that all too uncommon thing of reexamining their beliefs and coming to new conclusions.
今天，我们有这样的故事，讲述人们重新审视自己的信仰并得出新结论的罕见做法。
Act Three.
第三幕。
Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
我认为那位女士抗议得太多了。
You know, parents have an advantage over their children when it comes to inculcating them with a set of beliefs.
你知道，在向孩子灌输一套信念方面，父母比孩子有优势。
With their set of beliefs.
带着他们的一套信念。
Let's be honest.
说实话。
They're taller, first of all.
首先，他们更高。
And they're adults, capable of argument.
而且他们都是成年人，有能力争论。
Persuasive argument, hopefully.
希望有说服力的论证。
But if none of that works, they also control allowances, weekends, basically everything in the kid's life.
但如果这些都不起作用，他们也会控制津贴、周末，基本上是孩子生活中的一切。
Molly Antopol was 13 when she confronted the full strength of this power imbalance.
莫莉·安托波尔 (Molly Antopol) 13 岁时，就面临了这种权力不平衡的全部后果。
When I was in seventh grade, my social studies teacher led our class in a rousing debate over Roe v.
当我七年级时，我的社会研究老师带领全班就罗伊诉特朗普案进行了一场激动人心的辩论。
Wade.
韦德。
I had never heard of abortion.
我从来没有听说过堕胎。
I barely knew what sex was.
我几乎不知道性是什么。
And my immediate emotional reaction, and the position I backed enthusiastically in the debate, was that it seemed to me like murder.
我立即的情绪反应以及我在辩论中热情支持的立场是，在我看来这就像谋杀。
That night over dinner, when my mother asked what I'd done in school I told her about the class discussion, and about my stirring defense of the pro-life position.
那天晚上吃晚饭时，当我母亲问我在学校做了什么时，我告诉她课堂讨论的情况，以及我对反堕胎立场的激动人心的辩护。
My mother, a longtime liberal and women's rights advocate, had never looked so crushed.
我的母亲是一位长期的自由派和女权倡导者，她从来没有看上去如此沮丧过。
And when I said yes, she repeated it again and again like a mantra.
当我答应的时候，她就像咒语一样一遍又一遍地重复。
Then she set down her fork and stared at me, as if really noticing her daughter for the first time.
然后她放下叉子，盯着我，仿佛第一次真正注意到她的女儿。
"You're saying a woman shouldn't be allowed to decide what she does with her own body?
“你是说不应该让女人决定如何处理自己的身体？
With her own fetus?"
带着自己的胎儿？”
"Exactly," I said.
“完全正确，”我说。
I had no clue what a fetus was.
我不知道胎儿是什么。
"And you're saying that if a woman's raped, or molested, or whatever she shouldn't have the right to terminate the pregnancy?"
“你的意思是，如果一名妇女遭到强奸、猥亵或其他类似的行为，她就不应该有权终止妊娠？”
As my mother continued to lecture, she wouldn't even look at me.
妈妈继续讲课，却看也不看我一眼。
She seemed to be staring straight past me at some indeterminate blank spot on the wall.
她似乎正直视着我，盯着墙上某个不确定的空白点。
And I truly understood, for the first time, what it meant to disappoint her.
我第一次真正理解了让她失望意味着什么。
I swallowed a pain in my throat, but it came back up again.
我咽了咽喉咙里的疼痛，但又再次疼痛起来。
And finally she stood up and dumped her dishes in the sink.
最后她站起来，把盘子倒进水槽里。
Then she faced me and said, "Go to Siberia for half an hour and think about what you just said."
然后她对着我说：“去西伯利亚呆半个小时，想想你刚才说的话。”
"Siberia" was my bedroom closet.
“西伯利亚”是我卧室的衣柜。
It was where I was sent for timeouts when my mother thought I needed to think things over.
当我母亲认为我需要仔细考虑时，我就被罚暂停了。
My mother was not the type to respectfully agree to disagree.
我的母亲不是那种恭敬地同意不同意的人。
She came from a long, steady line of organizers, who broke the law in an effort to change minds, starting with her great-grandparents, Trotskyites in Ukraine.
她出身于一个长期而稳定的组织者队伍中，他们从她的曾祖父母、乌克兰的托洛茨基派开始，为了改变人们的想法而违法。
That night in Siberia, squeezed between coats and old board games and camping gear, I did think about abortion.
在西伯利亚的那天晚上，我挤在外套、旧棋盘游戏和露营装备之间，确实想到了堕胎。
And it still seemed to me like murder.
在我看来，这仍然像是谋杀。
But I knew my mother would never let this go.
但我知道妈妈永远不会放过这件事。
And I knew it was up to to me to end it for both of us.
我知道我应该为我们俩结束这一切。
If I let her win, I could crawl up on the sofa and watch Kristi Yamaguchi skate in the Olympics.
如果我让她赢了，我就可以爬到沙发上看克里斯蒂·山口在奥运会上滑冰。
That was all I wanted to do that winter.
这就是那个冬天我想做的一切。
But when I returned to the kitchen, my mother was replacing the Indian takeout menu on the refrigerator with a bumper sticker that read, "Keep your rosaries off my ovaries."
但当我回到厨房时，我母亲正在把冰箱上的印度外卖菜单换成保险杠贴纸，上面写着：“别让你的念珠接触我的卵巢。”
"Christian prayer beads," she said.
“基督教念珠，”她说。
"What are ovaries?" "The part of a woman's body that makes eggs."
“什么是卵巢？” “女性身体中产生卵子的部分。”
"Why would someone put rosaries on their ovaries?"
“为什么有人会把念珠放在卵巢上？”
"It's a metaphor," she said.
“这是一个比喻，”她说。
"For Christian fundamentalists who try to force their views on other people."
“对于那些试图将自己的观点强加给别人的基督教原教旨主义者来说。”
"Like you are?," I said.
“就像你一样？”我说。
I spent the next half hour back in Siberia.
接下来的半个小时我回到了西伯利亚。
[MUSIC - "QUE SERA SERA" ON SITAR]
[音乐 - 西塔琴“QUE SERA SERA”]
And so the re-education began.
于是，再教育就开始了。
Over the course of that winter my mother made me wear buttons to school-- "No Mandatory Motherhood.
那个冬天，我母亲让我穿纽扣去学校——“没有强制性的母亲身份。
Pro-child.
亲子。
Pro-choice." which I removed and slipped into my backpack as I walked into class.
支持堕胎。”当我走进课堂时，我把它取下并塞进背包里。
She pulled feminist paperbacks off our cinder block and plywood shelves, and read from them aloud.
她从煤渣砖和胶合板书架上取下女权主义平装本，大声朗读。
My mother even took me across town one early February morning where we, along with other members of her women's group, helped escort pregnant women into an abortion clinic.
二月初的一个清晨，我母亲甚至带我穿过城镇，我们和她的妇女团体的其他成员一起帮助护送孕妇进入堕胎诊所。
Together, we marched toward pro-life protesters who sat outside the building in lawn chairs clutching their own signs, one depicting a baby that looked more alien than human.
我们一起向反堕胎抗议者行进，他们坐在大楼外的草坪椅上，手里拿着自己的标语，其中一个标语描绘了一个看起来比人类更像外星人的婴儿。
Tiny and shriveled and blue.
又小又干瘪，呈蓝色。
"I hate that sign," my mother said quietly.
“我讨厌那个标志，”妈妈平静地说。
I looked at my mother and she looked back.
我看着妈妈，她也回头看了一眼。
At that moment she seemed more tired than anything else and I wanted to cut her a break.
那一刻她看起来比其他任何事情都累，我想让她休息一下。
"You were right," I blurted.
“你是对的，”我脱口而出。
She stopped walking.
她停下脚步。
"Right about what?" "About abortion," I said.
“对什么？” “关于堕胎，”我说。
"About everything, OK?"
“关于一切，好吗？”
"Say it then." "Abortion should be safe and legal," I said.
“那就说吧。” “堕胎应该是安全合法的，”我说。
I could tell she didn't believe me.
我看得出来她不相信我。
"Say it again," she said.
“再说一遍，”她说。
And I did.
我做到了。
I had hoped that by giving in, things would return to normal.
我曾希望通过屈服，一切都会恢复正常。
And they did for a few days.
他们这样做了几天。
My mother went to work.
我妈妈去上班了。
I went to school.
我去学校了。
And in the evenings, we sat up late eating takeout and watching recaps of the Olympics.
晚上，我们边吃外卖边熬夜，观看奥运会的回顾。
Then came my birthday.
然后是我的生日。
For months I'd been begging for a pair of Riedell figure skates.
几个月来我一直在乞求一双 Riedell 花样滑冰鞋。
I pictured myself impressing the skinny, dark-haired guy behind the snack stand at the ice rink with my triple salchows.
我想象着自己带着我的三重萨尔乔夫给溜冰场小吃摊后面那个瘦瘦的黑发家伙留下了深刻的印象。
I'd pointed the skates out to my mother at the mall, and on every female Olympian we saw on TV.
我在商场里向我的母亲指出了溜冰鞋，也向我们在电视上看到的每一位女性奥运选手展示了溜冰鞋。
But when my mother strode into the living room with my present, I felt my heart cave.
但当妈妈带着我的礼物大步走进客厅时，我感到心塌陷了。
There was no way those skates could fit inside the thin manila envelope she handed me.
这些溜冰鞋不可能装进她递给我的薄薄的马尼拉信封里。
I tore it open and found a letter from the Women's Reproductive Rights Assistance Project thanking me for my generous donation.
我把它撕开，发现一封来自妇女生殖权利援助项目的信，感谢我的慷慨捐赠。
"For a 13-year-old girl who was gang-raped downtown, paid for in your name." She said it with a hint of pride in her voice.
“为了一个在市中心被轮奸的13岁女孩，以你的名义赔偿。”她说这话的时候，语气里带着一丝自豪。
"Happy birthday."
“生日快乐。”
I stared at her.
我盯着她。
This was my present?
这是我的礼物？
She hadn't even bought me the abortion.
她甚至没有给我买堕胎药。
"This girl doesn't have anything," my mother continued, "No home, no money, no supportive, wonderful mother who understands that the last thing she needs in her life is a baby.
“这个女孩什么都没有，”我母亲继续说道，“没有家，没有钱，没有支持她的优秀母亲，她知道她生命中最不需要的就是婴儿。
And this organization gives her the chance to change things for herself."
这个组织让她有机会为自己改变一切。”
"Terrific," I said.
“太棒了，”我说。
"I didn't know Hallmark made a Happy Abortion card." I stuffed an entire cup cake in my mouth, knowing this was just the beginning.
“我不知道霍尔马克制作了一张快乐堕胎卡。”我把一整块纸杯蛋糕塞进嘴里，知道这只是开始。
I was right.
我是对的。
Three days later a letter arrived from Amy, the girl whose abortion I had funded, thanking me for making her life a little easier.
三天后，艾米（我资助她堕胎）收到了一封信，感谢我让她的生活变得轻松一些。
To this day I don't believe the organization would have allowed us to have contact, or encouraged her to give up her anonymity.
直到今天，我仍然不相信该组织会允许我们进行联系，或者鼓励她放弃匿名。
And no matter how many times she denies it, I still think it was my mother who typed up that letter.
不管她否认多少次，我仍然认为那封信是我母亲打的。
But that evening, I was too stunned to argue.
但那天晚上，我惊呆了，无法争辩。
"Write her back and then show me the letter," my mother said.
“给她回信，然后把信给我看，”我母亲说。
And when I told her, "I don't know what to say," she sent me to Siberia with a notepad until I came up with something.
当我告诉她“我不知道该说什么”时，她派我带着记事本去西伯利亚，直到我想出一些办法。
It was Friday night.
那是星期五晚上。
And as I crawled into my closet, I envisioned my friends at the ice rink and resented that I had to write Amy.
当我爬进衣柜时，我想象着溜冰场上的朋友们，并怨恨我必须写信给艾米。
As if she were my pen pal, or a child in Africa whose meals I was funding for $0.10 a day.
就好像她是我的笔友，或者是一个非洲的孩子，我每天为她提供 0.10 美元的伙食费。
"I wish you all the best," I scribbled.
“祝你一切顺利，”我潦草地写道。
But that felt as if I were signing some stranger's yearbook.
但这感觉就像我在某个陌生人的年鉴上签名。
What difference did it make what I thought?
它与我的想法有何不同？
I hated that my mother was so bent on drafting me to her side when, at 13, I knew my views didn't matter.
我讨厌我的母亲如此执着地把我拉到她一边，而我13岁时就知道我的观点并不重要。
But the thing is, they did matter.
但事实是，它们确实很重要。
To her.
对她来说。
What I realized spending every weekend for an entire winter with my mother, was how upsetting it must be for her to be this single mother, living in a tiny one-bedroom stucco apartment.
我意识到整个冬天每个周末都和母亲一起度过，作为一个住在一间狭小的单卧室灰泥公寓里的单身母亲，她一定会感到多么沮丧。
Working two jobs to support a daughter who didn't even get where she was coming from, who maybe didn't understand her at all.
打两份工来养活一个女儿，她甚至不知道自己来自哪里，也许根本不理解她。
So I tore off a new page.
于是我撕下了新的一页。
"You should really be thanking my mother," I finally wrote.
“你真的应该感谢我的母亲，”我最后写道。
It still felt like the fakest thing on Earth to correspond with a girl I didn't know, and who probably didn't even exist.
与一个我不认识、甚至可能根本不存在的女孩通信仍然感觉是世界上最虚假的事情。
But even then I knew who this letter was really for.
但即便如此，我也知道这封信到底是写给谁的。
I continued, "She's the one who taught me that the denial of safe abortions can threaten your health.
我继续说：“她教会我拒绝安全堕胎会威胁你的健康。
And that your reproductive freedom is a fundamental human right.
生育自由是一项基本人权。
"
”
Fundamental felt too businesslike, so I crossed it out and tried again.
基本面感觉太商业化了，所以我把它划掉，然后再试一次。
And as I sat back and worked through the next line, I wondered if any of these thoughts would begin to feel like my own.
当我坐下来写下一行时，我想知道这些想法是否会开始像我自己的一样。
They didn't yet, but I was just getting started.
他们还没有，但我才刚刚开始。
Molly Antopol.
莫莉·安托波尔。
she teaches creative writing at Stanford University, and she's working on a book of short stories and a novel.
她在斯坦福大学教授创意写作，目前正在创作一本短篇小说集和一本长篇小说。
Well, we end our program today with a love story about two people with very different, opposing beliefs.
好吧，我们今天以一个关于两个有着截然不同、相反信仰的人的爱情故事来结束我们的节目。
Beliefs, I believe, that could never be reconciled.
我相信，信念是永远无法调和的。
One of them was for, one was against.
其中一位支持，一位反对。
One was pro.
一位是专业人士。
One was con.
其中之一是骗局。
This story begins in 1990.
这个故事要从1990年说起。
Joel and Kate were both working in a psychiatric hospital in Belmont, Massachusetts.
乔尔和凯特都在马萨诸塞州贝尔蒙特的一家精神病医院工作。
From the moment they met, Joel liked Kate, Kate liked Joel, but it took them awhile to kind of figure that out.
从他们见面的那一刻起，乔尔就喜欢凯特，凯特也喜欢乔尔，但他们花了一段时间才弄清楚这一点。
And while that was happening, Kate spent a lot of time thinking about how to get in good with Joel.
当这一切发生时，凯特花了很多时间思考如何与乔尔相处融洽。
I mean the embarrassing thing is that basically I would check the schedule at the hospital each week and look ahead to the seven days and find shifts when I was working with Joel.
我的意思是，令人尴尬的是，基本上我每周都会检查医院的日程安排，并展望这 7 天，并在与乔尔一起工作时找到轮班。
And then plan my outfits accordingly, because I really wanted to look cute.
然后相应地计划我的服装，因为我真的想看起来很可爱。
And one of the things that I always relied on was that I had this pair of jeans that I thought looked really good on me.
我一直依赖的一件事是我拥有这条我认为非常适合我的牛仔裤。
And I would purposely save the jeans after laundry to the day when I knew I was going to be working with Joel so that I would look real fine in front of Joel.
我会故意把洗完的牛仔裤留到我知道我要和乔尔一起工作的那一天，这样我在乔尔面前就会看起来很漂亮。
She did have this one pair of pants that I wasn't totally crazy about.
她确实有一条我不太喜欢的裤子。
The pants seemed not in fitting with the rest of her.
这条裤子似乎与她的其他部分不相配。
And so it always sort of threw me for a moment.
所以它总是让我有些困惑。
Describe the pants please.
请描述一下裤子。
Joel Lovell Well, they were acid-washed.
乔尔·洛弗尔 好吧，它们被酸洗了。
They were awesome.
他们太棒了。
I loved them.
我爱他们。
They were acid-washed denim.
它们是酸洗牛仔布。
Sort of speckly white.
有点像斑点状的白色。
Tapered at the bottom at the ankle.
脚踝处底部呈锥形。
And a little bit, not balloonish, but a little puffy.
还有一点点，不是气球状，而是有点浮肿。
And they ballooned out in the thighs in a sort of jodhpur-y kind of way.
它们在大腿处以一种焦特布尔的方式膨胀。
And the sort of really crazy part was what happened up near the top.
真正疯狂的部分是在顶部附近发生的事情。
They had this fold over front area?
他们在前面区域有这个折叠吗？
The feature of the pants that I thought made them really amazing is that they had at the top-- you have to try to picture this-- they kind of came up pretty high on your waist.
我认为这条裤子的一个特点让它们真正令人惊叹，那就是它们的顶部——你必须尝试想象这一点——它们在你的腰部相当高。
Like a good, gosh, four inches above your belly button?
就像你的肚脐上方四英寸一样好，天哪？
OK.
好的。
Kate Porterfield But at the very top of them in the front, they rolled over into this flap.
凯特·波特菲尔德 但在他们前面的最上面，他们滚进了这个挡板里。
This big flap.
这个大翻板。
And they were just, they were very cool.
他们只是，他们非常酷。
There was a lot going on in these jeans.
这些牛仔裤发生了很多事情。
You know, I don't want to pretend like I'm some incredible fashion maven.
你知道，我不想假装自己是一个令人难以置信的时尚专家。
I'm not.
我不是。
But these were not a good-looking pair of pants.
但这不是一条好看的裤子。
What was the original context of these pants?
这条裤子的最初背景是什么？
I'm picturing a Boy George concert.
我正在想象一场乔治男孩的音乐会。
Maybe The Cure?
也许是治愈？
Exactly.
确切地。
Yeah, you got the timing right.
是的，你的时机恰到好处。
I think I bought them-- I remember now, I bought them at a store in Boston.
我想我买了它们——我现在想起来了，我是在波士顿的一家商店买的。
Bought them probably late '80s or '87 something like that, in this store that was very kind of just '80s Boston clothes.
可能是在 80 年代末或 87 年代买的，在这家商店里买的都是 80 年代波士顿的衣服。
It's just a certain look.
这只是某种外观。
I mean, it's definitely got a little of the Bananarama thing going on, a little bit of Boy George.
我的意思是，它肯定有一点香蕉拉玛的味道，一点乔治男孩的味道。
Yeah?
是的？
Kate Porterfield But I'm still dragging them out at this point, because I'm thinking they look so good on me and I like them so much.
凯特·波特菲尔德（Kate Porterfield）但我现在仍然把它们拖出来，因为我认为它们穿在我身上很好看，而且我非常喜欢它们。
So, one of my strategies was I'd see if we were working an evening shift together, because an evening shift meant we were more likely as a group of people to go out for a beer after.
所以，我的策略之一是看看我们是否一起上夜班，因为夜班意味着我们更有可能作为一群人出去喝一杯啤酒。
And that was like, that would be a golden opportunity to wear the pants.
这就像，这将是穿裤子的绝佳机会。
Because you'd wear them and then you're going to be out afterwards, in a bar.
因为你会穿上它们，然后你就会出去，去酒吧。
Just like I've got a whole evening of these pants at that point, and I know I'm going to be just gold, you know?
就像我当时整个晚上都穿着这条裤子一样，我知道我会变成金子，你知道吗？
Do you remember any key dates where you wore the pants?
你还记得你穿这条裤子的重要日子吗？
A key date?
关键日期？
The first night when it became apparent that Joel was interested me, was a night we had an evening shift and then a bunch of us went to this bar.
当乔尔明显对我感兴趣的第一个晚上，我们上夜班，然后我们一群人去了这家酒吧。
And the group started dwindling and dwindling and dwindling, until it was left with just me and Joel.
队伍开始越来越少，直到只剩下我和乔尔。
And I was wearing-- I was wearing the pants that night.
那天晚上我就穿着这条裤子。
And it was a very successful night because that was the night when he kind of, sort of was making eyes at me, and I could tell this is going to go somewhere.
那是一个非常成功的夜晚，因为那天晚上，他有点、有点用眼神看着我，我知道这将会发生在某个地方。
He's going to ask me out.
他要约我出去。
Really?
真的吗？
So the actual night that you turned the corner with your husband and the father of your child, you were wearing the pants?
那么，在你与你的丈夫和孩子的父亲一起走过街角的那天晚上，你就穿着这条裤子吗？
I-- Yes, I was.
我——是的，我是。
Yes, I was.
是的，我是。
That's right.
这是正确的。
That was the pivotal night in which your life turned from what it was to what it is?
那是你的生活从原来的样子转变为现在的样子的关键夜晚？
Joel and I began dating.
乔尔和我开始约会。
And I'm just very, very happy at this point, because he's just a wonderful person, and I can't believe it's worked out, and we start dating.
此时我非常非常高兴，因为他是一个很棒的人，我不敢相信事情已经解决了，我们开始约会。
So, we're going along, and we're working together and dating.
所以，我们一起前进，一起工作，一起约会。
And it's reached, I'd say we're at about four months at this point.
我想说现在已经达到了大约四个月的时间。
So we've been dating for about four months, but it's at that point where relationships get where I think it's kind of like, you know that-- I mean it's not super serious yet, but you know that this is going to keep going and this has a lot of potential.
所以我们已经约会了大约四个月，但正是在那时，关系达到了我认为有点像，你知道——我的意思是，它还不是非常严重，但你知道这将继续下去，而且有很大的潜力。
You're both clearly very into each other.
你们俩显然都很相爱。
So we're at that point, about four months, and Joel was actually over at my apartment.
所以我们到了那个时候，大约四个月，乔尔实际上在我的公寓。
Kate's in her bedroom, at her apartment going through her clothes and figuring out which ones she should keep and which ones she should give to Salvation Army.
凯特在她公寓的卧室里检查她的衣服，并弄清楚哪些是她应该保留的，哪些是应该送给救世军的。
And I opened up my drawer where I keep my pants and lifted the stone-washed pants out of the drawer, not at all because I was considering sending them to Salvation Army, but only because I had to move them to find the pants on the bottom of the drawer that of course I might send to Salvation Army.
我打开放裤子的抽屉，把石洗过的裤子从抽屉里拿出来，这并不是因为我正在考虑把它们送到救世军，而只是因为我必须把它们搬到抽屉底部才能找到我当然可以送到救世军的裤子。
And as I pull the pants out of the drawer, Joel, sitting on the bed, kind of sat there a minute and cleared his throat and said--
当我从抽屉里拉出裤子时，乔尔坐在床上，坐了一会儿，清了清嗓子，说道——
Um, you sure you want to keep those pants?
嗯，你确定要保留这条裤子吗？
And she sort of stops and looks at me and says, "Well, you know.
她停下来看着我说：“好吧，你知道。
Yeah, I-- of course, I mean I, I think I do, why?"
是的，我——当然，我的意思是我，我想我愿意，为什么？”
And so I say, "Well, you know those-- I just think those pants are maybe a little bit out of style now."
所以我说，“嗯，你知道的——我只是觉得这条裤子现在可能有点过时了。”
He said, "Well, do you think maybe, do you think maybe they're just not in so much style anymore?"
他说：“好吧，你认为也许，你认为也许他们不再那么有风格了？”
And as the words are coming out, I see Kate's face flushing.
当这句话说出来时，我看到凯特的脸涨得通红。
Becoming pinker, and then red.
变得粉红色，然后变成红色。
And I was like-- WHAT?
我当时想——什么？
Joel Lovell She's sort of holding them in her hand and looking at them, and looking at me, and looking back down at them.
乔尔·洛弗尔：她手里拿着它们，看着它们，看着我，又低头看着它们。
And I realize these aren't just another pair of pants.
我意识到这不仅仅是另一条裤子。
These were the-- these were the special pants.
这些是——这些是特殊的裤子。
And then I-- it's a very uncomfortable situation for me because, a, again, I'm not a particularly fashionable guy myself so I probably don't have any right saying this to anybody.
然后我——这对我来说是一个非常不舒服的情况，因为，再说一遍，我自己并不是一个特别时尚的人，所以我可能没有权利对任何人这么说。
But then, b, this is the woman who I've really fallen in love with and this is like one of the first moments when I've had to say to her, there's something about you or-- there's something connected to you that I don't like.
但是，b，这是我真正爱上的女人，这就像我不得不对她说的第一个时刻，你身上有一些东西，或者——有一些与你有关的东西，我不喜欢。
I couldn't believe it.
我简直不敢相信。
That these pants that had like, I've been purposely wearing in front of him for so many times, and I thought had done such a good job for me, and he was now saying I should put them in a bag and put them on the curb, basically.
这条裤子，我故意在他面前穿了很多次，我认为对我来说效果很好，而他现在说我应该把它们放在袋子里，然后放在路边，基本上。
You thought that the pants had actually done a job on him?
你以为这条裤子真的对他起了作用吗？
You thought the pants were part of your arsenal and part of your power over him?
你认为这条裤子是你武器库的一部分，也是你对他的权力的一部分？
They were-- yeah, arsenal.
他们是——是的，阿森纳。
Exactly.
确切地。
They gave me confidence, which gave me some, I think, some degree maybe of attractiveness to this person who ultimately I was trying to attract.
他们给了我信心，我想，这给了我对这个我最终想要吸引的人的某种程度的吸引力。
Because clearly, when I was walking around in those pants, I was feeling pretty confident.
因为显然，当我穿着这条裤子走来走去时，我感到非常自信。
I thought I looked great.
我觉得我看起来很棒。
Do you think you could have gotten Joel without the pants?
你认为不穿裤子你能得到乔尔吗？
Wow.
哇。
Gosh.
天哪。
I hate to even have to think about it, Ira.
我什至不愿意去想它，艾拉。
I don't know.
我不知道。
You think the pants were that big of a factor?
你认为裤子是一个重要因素吗？
I don't know!
我不知道！
I don't know.
我不知道。
I mean, it's been 11 years, but maybe those pants had something to do with it.
我的意思是，已经过去 11 年了，但也许那条裤子与此有关。
You know, I'd have have to ask him.
你知道，我得问他。
I'd have to ask him.
我得问他。
I would have fallen for her if she were showing up in Garanimals every day, say, or leisure suits or something.
如果她每天都穿着 Garanimals 出现，比如说，或者休闲套装什么的，我就会爱上她。
I mean, as anybody knows who's ever fallen in love, you idolize the person you're falling in love with.
我的意思是，正如任何人都知道谁曾坠入爱河，你会崇拜你所爱的人。
And they can, in those early days particularly, they feel perfect to you.
他们可以，特别是在早期，让你感觉很完美。
And then you start asking yourself all sorts of questions.
然后你开始问自己各种各样的问题。
All sorts of insecurities come up.
各种不安全感都会出现。
Why would this perfect person necessarily fall for me, and accept me and want to be with me?
为什么这个完美的人一定会爱上我，接受我，想要和我在一起？
But then when you discover a chink in that person's perfection, when you find a flaw-- in this case Kate had bad taste at least in this one pair of pants-- then it somehow makes you feel a little bit more comfortable.
但是，当你发现那个人的完美中存在缺陷时，当你发现一个缺陷时——在这种情况下，凯特至少在这条裤子上品味很差——那么它会以某种方式让你感觉更舒服一些。
You feel like, well, maybe I do have a chance here because, God, I mean those pants had a chance with her.
你感觉，好吧，也许我在这里确实有机会，因为，上帝，我的意思是那些裤子有机会和她在一起。
Joel Lovell and Kate Porterfield.
乔尔·洛弗尔和凯特·波特菲尔德。
Since that story originally broadcast on our program in 2001, their family has grown to three kids, two adults, no acid-washed jeans.
自从 2001 年这个故事最初在我们的节目中播出以来，他们的家庭已经发展到三个孩子，两个成年人，没有酸洗牛仔裤。
[MUSIC - "VENUS IN BLUE JEANS" BY JIMMY CLANTON]
[音乐 - 吉米·克兰顿的《穿蓝色牛仔裤的维纳斯》]
Well, our program is produced today by Lisa Pollak and me, with Alex Blumberg, Jane Feltes, Sarah Koenig, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp and Nancy Updike.
好吧，我们今天的节目由丽莎·波拉克和我、亚历克斯·布伦伯格、简·菲尔特斯、莎拉·科尼格、罗宾·塞米恩、艾丽莎·希普和南希·厄普代克共同制作。
Our Senior Producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Production help from Andy Dixon.
安迪·迪克森 (Andy Dixon) 提供制作帮助。
Seth Lind is our Production Manager.
Seth Lind 是我们的生产经理。
Music help from Jessica Hopper.
杰西卡·霍珀的音乐帮助。
Special thanks today to Judy Hoffman, Andrew Solomon, and Simon Johnson.
今天特别感谢朱迪·霍夫曼、安德鲁·所罗门和西蒙·约翰逊。
And thanks today to the staff at This I Believe , especially Viki Merrick John Gregory and Dan Gediman.
今天还要感谢 This I Believe 的工作人员，特别是 Viki Merrick John Gregory 和 Dan Gediman。
The old 1950s-era This I Believes are going to be running now on Bob Edwards' weekend show.
1950 年代的旧节目《This I Believes》现在将在鲍勃·爱德华兹 (Bob Edwards) 的周末节目中上演。
And there's a podcast and all 65,000 essays at this thisibelieve.org.
thisibelie.org 上有一个播客和全部 65,000 篇文章。
Jay Allison, who I talked with the top of this show, is moving from This I Believe to producing a brand new show for Public Radio, The Moth Radio Hour, which is going to be like The Moth story-telling podcasts that we've excerpted a number of times here on our show, but a whole hour this fall.
我与这个节目的高层交谈过的杰伊·艾利森(Jay Allison)将从《我相信》转向为公共广播电台制作一个全新的节目《飞蛾广播时间》(The Moth Radio Hour)，这将像我们在节目中多次摘录的《飞蛾故事播客》一样，但今年秋天整整一个小时。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
And we are just days away from our one-time only live cinema event, where we are doing our show onstage with Dan Savage, Mike Birbiglia, Joss Whedon, Starlee Kine and others and sending it out live to movie theaters all across the country, this Thursday, April 23.
距离我们的一次性现场电影活动只有几天的时间，我们将与丹·萨维奇 (Dan Savage)、迈克·比尔比利亚 (Mike Birbiglia)、乔斯·韦登 (Joss Whedon)、斯塔莉·凯恩 (Starlee Kine) 等人一起在舞台上表演，并将其现场直播到全国各地的电影院，时间为 4 月 23 日星期四。
You don't have much time.
你的时间不多了。
Tickets at thisamericanlife.org.
门票位于 thisamericanlife.org。
WBEZ management oversight for our program by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia, who really does not care if public broadcasting collapses in the current economic environment.
我们的老板托里·马拉蒂亚 (Torey Malatia) 先生对我们的节目进行 WBEZ 管理监督，他并不关心公共广播在当前的经济环境下是否会崩溃。
He's got bigger plans.
他有更大的计划。
I'm considering maybe guidance counseling.
我正在考虑也许进行指导咨询。
The other thing I'm considering would be flower arranging.
我正在考虑的另一件事是插花。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
[MUSIC - "VENUS IN BLUE JEANS" BY JIMMY CLANTON]
[音乐 - 吉米·克兰顿的《穿蓝色牛仔裤的维纳斯》]
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。