376: Wrong Side of History - This American Life
You are using an outdated browser.
您正在使用过时的浏览器。
Please upgrade your browser or activate Google Chrome Frame to improve your experience.
请升级您的浏览器或激活 Google Chrome 浏览器内嵌框架以改善您的体验。
Sign up for a free Life Partners trial, and you can watch the video “A Night of Stories and Improv.”
注册免费试用《Life Partners》，您可以观看视频“故事与即兴表演之夜”。
00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #376 | March 13, 2009 376: Wrong Side of History Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 376 集 | 2009 年 3 月 13 日 376：历史的错误面 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Madoff Ira Glass OK, I've been happily gabbing away with Harold Wilshinsky for maybe 15 minutes when he suddenly came out with this warning.
Madoff Ira Glass 好吧，我和 Harold Wilshinsky 愉快地闲聊了大约 15 分钟，突然他发出了这个警告。
You start an insurance man talking, you're out of luck.
你让一个保险人说话，你就不走运了。
This seemed to refer to a body of folk wisdom about the ways of insurance men that I had never heard of, but I kept my mouth shut about that because Harold is the kind of person I don't run into much.
这似乎指的是我从未听说过的关于保险人之道的民间智慧，但我对此守口如瓶，因为哈罗德是那种我很少遇到的人。
Harold is a dapper, cufflinks-wearing, 79-year-old and he gives advice to people for a living-- insurance advice, estate planning advice.
哈罗德 (Harold) 79 岁，衣冠楚楚，戴着袖扣，他以向人们提供建议为生——保险建议、遗产规划建议。
And I had asked him to come into the studio to tell the story of this piece of advice that he gave over 15 years ago to his own daughter and son-in-law.
我请他到演播室来讲述他 15 年前给自己女儿和女婿的这条建议的故事。
Back then, they'd invested all their money with this guy who ran this great hedge fund.
那时，他们把所有的钱都投资给了这个经营这家伟大对冲基金的人。
And it was all their money, which Harold was not happy with.
而且都是他们的钱，哈罗德对此并不满意。
He says that violates one of the basic rules of investment.
他表示，这违反了投资的基本规则之一。
Diversification.
多样化。
And I said I don't care how good this guy is.
我说我不在乎这个人有多好。
I don't care if he's God himself.
我不在乎他是否是神本人。
You just don't put all your money with one person.
你只是不会把所有的钱都放在一个人身上。
I mean, 20, 25% of your money, fine, but how do you put all your-- all with someone named Madoff?
我的意思是，你的钱的 20%、25%，很好，但是你如何把你所有的钱都交给一个叫麦道夫的人呢？
Madoff, of course, was Bernie Madoff, who just this week pleaded guilty to 11 felony charges and went to jail for what prosecutors say was a $65 billion-- that's billion with a B-- Ponzi scheme.
当然，麦道夫就是伯尼·麦道夫，他本周刚刚承认了 11 项重罪指控，并因检察官所说的 650 亿美元（这对于 B 庞氏骗局来说是 10 亿美元）入狱。
But back in 1993 or so when all this happened--
但早在 1993 年左右，当这一切发生时——
I didn't know Madoff from a hole in the wall.
我从墙上的一个洞里不认识麦道夫。
The son-in-law, whose name is Merrill, had given to Madoff his entire pension fund.
女婿名叫梅里尔，他把自己的全部养老基金都给了麦道夫。
It was maybe half a million dollars.
这可能是五十万美元。
And he gave Madoff this money because his father and two of his brothers had those given everything they had to Madoff.
他给了麦道夫这笔钱，因为他的父亲和他的两个兄弟把他们拥有的一切都给了麦道夫。
Like all of Madoff's clients, on paper they were doing great, earning 15, 20% on their money each and every year-- a huge rate of return.
和麦道夫的所有客户一样，从表面上看，他们做得很好，每年赚取 15%、20% 的收益——这是一个巨大的回报率。
But when Harold asked, how does he get that great return, Merrill had no idea.
但当哈罗德问他如何获得如此丰厚的回报时，梅里尔却一无所知。
None of Madoff's clients did.
麦道夫的客户都没有这样做。
Madoff wouldn't tell them how he made the money.
麦道夫不会告诉他们他是如何赚到钱的。
It was proprietary.
它是专有的。
No. No. I'd love to be able to answer you and say oh yeah, I knew.
不，不，我很乐意回答你并说哦，是的，我知道。
I had it figured.
我已经想到了。
Because I would be one of the few geniuses in that field.
因为我将成为该领域为数不多的天才之一。
No.
不。
He just thought that it was bad throw all your money into one hedge fund.
他只是认为把所有的钱投入一个对冲基金是不好的。
And he made this very, very clear-- abundantly clear-- to his daughter Pam and to Merril.
他向他的女儿帕姆和梅里尔说得非常非常清楚——非常清楚。
And I'm not exactly shy about stating my beliefs on things.
我并不羞于表达我对事物的信念。
Yes.
是的。
Yes, he loves to give advice, especially to me.
是的，他喜欢提供建议，尤其是给我。
Child rearing, advice on relationships, marital.
育儿、人际关系、婚姻建议。
And he heard that all of that money was in one fund and he always believed in diversification.
他听说所有的钱都集中在一只基金中，而且他始终相信多元化。
And he was very emotional.
他非常情绪化。
He felt very strongly that we were making a huge mistake and we needed to fix it right away.
他强烈地感觉到我们犯了一个巨大的错误，我们需要立即纠正它。
And he made me so nervous that then, after he left, my husband and I had an entire discussion, let's say.
他让我非常紧张，以至于在他离开后，我和我丈夫进行了一次完整的讨论。
And I said, you'd better get your money out of there tomorrow.
我说，你最好明天把钱拿出来。
I don't care about what your brothers say, because I figured they would be upset, which they were.
我不在乎你的兄弟们说什么，因为我认为他们会感到不安，而他们确实如此。
She and Merrill were so frantic that Merrill didn't just diversify like Harold was suggesting.
她和梅里尔如此疯狂，以致于梅里尔并没有像哈罗德建议的那样进行多元化投资。
He pulled all their money out of Madoff's hedge fund.
他从麦道夫的对冲基金中撤出了他们所有的钱。
I would've bit your head off if you would've left in anything.
如果你留下任何东西，我会咬掉你的头。
And then something kind of unfortunate happened to them.
然后他们发生了一些不幸的事情。
For the next 16 years, Merrill had to watch his brothers and his father make a fortune with Madoff.
在接下来的 16 年里，梅里尔不得不看着他的兄弟和他的父亲与麦道夫一起发财。
Their money doubled every three or four years until they had millions.
他们的钱每三四年就会翻一番，直到拥有数百万美元。
And this wasn't just on paper.
这不仅仅是纸上谈兵。
Merrill's dad was retired and his account was set up to send him a check every month to live off of.
梅里尔的父亲退休了，他的账户是每月给他寄一张支票来维持生计。
He felt so strongly about Madoff that on his deathbed, he actually urged Merrill to please, please, just one thing, please go back to Madoff.
他对麦道夫的感情如此强烈，以至于在临终前，他实际上敦促梅里尔拜托，拜托，只有一件事，请回到麦道夫身边。
And so for sixteen years, Harold's advice to leave Madoff really seemed like the worst advice Merrill had ever been given.
因此，十六年来，哈罗德离开麦道夫的建议似乎确实是梅里尔收到过的最糟糕的建议。
He was very angry.
他很生气。
And then every so often, he would rant and rave.
然后每隔一段时间，他就会咆哮和咆哮。
"Your big mouth stupid father.
“你这个大嘴巴的蠢爸爸。
Cost me all this money.
花了我这么多钱。
Why didn't he keep his big mouth--" He would never say a word to my father.
他为什么不闭嘴——”他永远不会对我父亲说一句话。
I would hear about my stupid father.
我会听到我愚蠢的父亲的故事。
And my daughter never missed an opportunity.
我的女儿从来没有错过任何机会。
God bless her.
上帝保佑她。
To let me know about-- she was like his spokesperson.
让我知道——她就像他的代言人。
Merrill thinks, Merrill doesn't-- [LAUGHS]
美林认为，美林不——[笑]
You know, I don't think Merrill will ever get over what you did when you told him to take his money out.
你知道，我认为美林永远不会忘记你告诉他把钱取出来时你所做的事情。
I would say to him, you're such a know it all.
我会对他说，你真是个无所不知的人。
Why didn't you keep your mouth shut if you didn't know about this Madoff?
如果你不知道这个麦道夫，你为什么不闭嘴呢？
I said, Pam, I didn't tell him to take his money out.
我说，帕姆，我没有告诉他把他的钱拿出来。
I told him he should diversify.
我告诉他他应该多元化。
She didn't want to know.
她不想知道。
And let me ask you, did you, at some point, start to regret that advice?
让我问你，你是否在某个时刻开始后悔这个建议？
That's an excellent question.
这是一个很好的问题。
No. That's amazing, now that you mention it.
不，既然你提到了，那就太神奇了。
No.
不。
And then finally, after 16 years of family strife about this-- 16 years on the wrong side of history-- Harold found himself vindicated.
最后，经过 16 年的家庭冲突——16 年站在历史的错误一边——哈罗德发现自己被证明是正确的。
This fall, Madoff was arrested.
今年秋天，麦道夫被捕。
The truth came out about his con.
他的骗局真相大白了。
The news broke, if I'm not mistaken, on a Thursday.
如果我没记错的话，这个消息是在星期四传出的。
And Friday night, I get a call from Merrill.
周五晚上，我接到美林的电话。
Now, Merrill seldom calls me unless he had something specific.
现在，梅里尔很少打电话给我，除非他有具体的事情。
And he is just waxing poetic.
他正在变得富有诗意。
My God, you'd think I represented the second coming.
天啊，你可能会认为我代表着第二次降临。
All these geniuses didn't have this figured.
所有这些天才都没有想到这一点。
You knew and you had it figured and you understood this and-- And I said, Merrill, all I said was diversify.
你知道，你已经弄清楚了，你明白了这一点，而且——我说，美林，我所说的只是多元化。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
And he didn't want to know.
他不想知道。
He I thought that I was an absolute genius and I knew.
他我认为我是一个绝对的天才，我知道。
Finally, I said, Merrill, my God, the last time someone spoke to me this way was my late mother.
最后，我说，梅里尔，我的上帝，最后一次有人这样对我说话是我已故的母亲。
Well, so then what happened when you finally saw your daughter again?
那么，当你终于再次见到你的女儿时，发生了什么？
A word was never spoken and I didn't bring it up.
一句话也没说，我也没有提起。
If she wasn't saying it, I wasn't saying it.
如果她不说，我也不会说。
And that's the way it's been.
事情就是这样。
it's nice to be 80 years old and to be able to say-- whether you say it or not-- I told you so.
很高兴已经 80 岁了，并且能够说——无论你是否说——我告诉过你了。
I'm the smart one.
我是最聪明的那个
You're the idiot.
你就是个白痴。
I told you.
我告诉你了。
Did he say that?
他有这么说吗？
Pam No. No. No, he didn't say that.
帕姆 不，不，不，他没这么说。
You've never been tempted to say I told you so?
你从来没有想过说是我告诉过你的吗？
Nope.
没有。
Nope.
没有。
Gee, that sounds pretty good, you know?
哎呀，这听起来不错，你知道吗？
I'm impressed with myself now.
我现在对自己印象深刻。
No, I didn't.
不，我没有。
It's just a matter of dealing with people and especially your kids.
这只是一个与人打交道的问题，尤其是与你的孩子打交道的问题。
You don't play gotcha.
你不玩陷阱。
Pam says that there's another reason that her dad never said I told you so.
帕姆说她爸爸从未说过我告诉过你还有另一个原因。
And that's that they know people who lost all their savings to Bernie Madoff.
那就是他们认识的人因为伯尼·麦道夫而失去了所有积蓄。
Two of Merrill's brothers took huge hits.
梅里尔的两个兄弟遭受了巨大打击。
Merrill's stepmom lost her retirement money.
梅里尔的继母失去了她的退休金。
In the face of that, Pam and Merrill don't much feel like celebrating.
面对这种情况，帕姆和梅里尔并不想庆祝。
And her dad doesn't feel like gloating.
她的父亲并不觉得幸灾乐祸。
Sometimes it's hard to feel good about being on the right side of history because you know so many people who are on the wrong side, which brings us to today's radio program.
有时候，站在历史正确的一边很难感觉良好，因为你知道很多人都站在错误的一边，这让我们看到了今天的广播节目。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today on our show, The Wrong Side of History.
今天我们的节目《历史的错误面》。
We have four stories of people who find themselves on the losing side of big historical trends.
我们有四个故事，讲述的是人们发现自己在历史大趋势中处于失败的一方。
In Act One, NPR economics correspondent Adam Davidson is back on our show and he is worried that one of his own relatives-- somebody he's close to-- is trying to defy the world economy.
在第一幕中，NPR 经济记者亚当·戴维森 (Adam Davidson) 再次出现在我们的节目中，他担心自己的一位亲戚（与他关系密切）正在试图挑战世界经济。
Act Two, we have a story of a man cast out by a political campaign.
第二幕，我们讲述了一个被政治运动驱逐的人的故事。
Act Three, some advice for everybody living in the 14th century.
第三幕，给所有生活在 14 世纪的人一些建议。
Act Four, Alex Kotlowitz on a man who is going down in history as something everybody who knows him says he wasn't for most of his life.
第四幕，亚历克斯·科特洛维茨（Alex Kotlowitz）讲述了一个即将载入史册的人，每个认识他的人都说他一生中的大部分时间都不是这样的人。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Hey Mister DJ.
第一幕，嘿 DJ 先生。
And we're joined right now by one of our regular contributors, Planet Money correspondent, NPR economics correspondent, Adam Davidson.
现在，我们的一位定期撰稿人、《星球金钱》记者、NPR 经济记者亚当·戴维森也加入了我们的行列。
And Adam, you are here today on a mission.
亚当，你今天来这里是有使命的。
I am on a mission.
我正在执行任务。
And that mission is to save my cousin DJ's life-- to make his life better.
这个使命就是拯救我表弟 DJ 的生命，让他的生活变得更好。
Wow.
哇。
Adam Davidson Yeah, and I want to say I love DJ.
Adam Davidson 是的，我想说我喜欢 DJ。
He's like my awesome little brother.
他就像我很棒的弟弟。
He's really smart.
他真的很聪明。
He's really, really funny.
他真的非常非常有趣。
And I feel like he has made a horrible decision.
我觉得他做了一个可怕的决定。
He has literally made the decision that puts him on the wrong side of our economy.
他做出的决定实际上使他站在了我们经济的错误一边。
So he's in the wrong side of the economy, he is on the wrong side of history, it in what way?
所以他站在了经济的错误一边，他站在了历史的错误一边，具体是怎样的呢？
He dropped out of college.
他从大学退学了。
He did the one thing-- let me explain why I get so upset about this.
他做了一件事——让我解释一下为什么我对此感到如此不安。
And I am.
我也是。
I'm feeling myself angry at DJ right now while we're talking.
当我们谈话时，我感到自己对 DJ 很生气。
So I am international business and economics correspondent for NPR, which basically means I spend much of my time talking to leading experts, studying the role of the US in the global economy.
我是 NPR 的国际商业和经济记者，这基本上意味着我花了很多时间与顶尖专家交谈，研究美国在全球经济中的作用。
And there is one thing I've learned with absolute certainty, which is that the competitive advantage of the United States and our citizens, the way we will succeed in this global economy going forward, is through skills, education, knowledge.
我绝对确定地了解到一件事，那就是美国和我们公民的竞争优势，以及我们在未来全球经济中取得成功的方式，是通过技能、教育和知识。
In other words, stay in school.
换句话说，留在学校。
Get a college degree.
获得大学学位。
And you'll be in a much better position.
而且你会处于一个更好的位置。
In the global economy.
在全球经济中。
Adam Davidson In the global economy.
亚当·戴维森在全球经济中。
And if you drop out of college, then you have, basically, consciously decided to just not partake in the economic growth and possibilities of the coming decades.
如果你从大学退学，那么你基本上已经有意识地决定不参与未来几十年的经济增长和可能性。
And it's going to get worse and worse and worse, that 10 years from now and then 30 years from now and 40 years from now, you will make less money, you have less opportunity.
情况会变得越来越糟，10年后、30年后、40年后，你赚的钱会越来越少，机会也会越来越少。
OK, and so as I understand it, you've tried to convince DJ of this, you have been completely unsuccessful.
好吧，据我了解，您曾试图说服 DJ 相信这一点，但您完全没有成功。
And so you have now enlisted some help.
所以你现在已经寻求了一些帮助。
Yes, I have a friend, Pietra Rivoli.
是的，我有一个朋友，皮特拉·里沃利。
She's a professor of economics at Georgetown University.
她是乔治城大学的经济学教授。
So I thought, well, DJ won't listen to me.
所以我想，好吧，DJ 不会听我的。
Maybe he will listen to a qualified expert-- a professor of economics.
也许他会听一位合格的专家——一位经济学教授的意见。
All right, so I'm going to bow out now and you're going to speak to both of them.
好吧，我现在要退出，你要和他们俩谈谈。
They are both on the line.
他们都在线。
Good luck.
祝你好运。
DJ, let's start with you.
DJ，让我们从你开始吧。
What are you, 25?
25岁，你是什么？
How old?
几岁了？
Yeah, getting up there.
是的，站起来。
Adam Davidson You graduated high school and then you went to Quinsigamond Community College right there in Worcester, right?
Adam Davidson 你高中毕业后去了伍斯特的昆斯加蒙社区学院，对吧？
That's right.
这是正确的。
Adam Davidson And what happened then?
亚当·戴维森 然后发生了什么？
I went for about two weeks and decided it was time to tell my father that I'd never wanted to go in the first place and I don't want to be here now, so I'm going to have to drop out.
我去了大约两周，决定是时候告诉我父亲我一开始就不想去，现在也不想留在这里，所以我不得不退学。
Now you told me that you actually wished you had dropped out earlier in your life?
现在你告诉我你真的希望自己早点退学？
Yeah, if I had more time to work and make money then, I would rather have done that.
是的，如果我有更多的时间工作和赚钱，我宁愿这样做。
You mean not gone to high school and made money from 14 or 15?
你的意思是没有上过高中，从14岁或15岁开始就赚钱了？
Yeah, but still, the high school experience was definitely worth it, but--
是的，但是，高中的经历绝对是值得的，但是——
Because you were a big football star and all the girls loved you.
因为你是一位大足球明星，所有的女孩都爱你。
Yeah, that's part of it.
是的，这就是其中的一部分。
Adam Davidson What do you think your life is going to be like as a guy with a high school degree but no advanced education?
亚当·戴维森（Adam Davidson） 作为一个拥有高中学历但没有接受过高等教育的人，你认为你的生活会是什么样子？
I'm going to work a hands-on construction job for the rest of my life and have sore body parts every day.
我将在余生中从事手工建筑工作，每天都会感到身体部位酸痛。
What are you doing now?
你在干什么？
DJ I work for Henkels & McCoy.
DJ 我为 Henkels & McCoy 工作。
We do telecommunications.
我们是做电信的。
It's pretty much outside construction.
这几乎是外部建筑。
I'd call you a ditch digger.
我会称你为挖沟者。
DJ Yeah, I dig ditches by hand.
DJ 是的，我用手挖沟渠。
Now before that, you were a bodyguard or a bouncer at a strip club?
在此之前，您是脱衣舞俱乐部的保镖或保镖？
Yeah, we don't have to go into details, but yes, I did a little of that.
是的，我们不必讨论细节，但是，是的，我做了一些。
What is it, Crazy Girls?
疯狂女孩，这是什么？
What's the name?
叫什么名字？
No, it's Centerfold's.
不，这是插页的。
Adam Davidson Centerfold's, right.
亚当·戴维森的插页，右。
And what you think?
你觉得呢？
When you look at our uncles, for example, they didn't go to college and they've done pretty well, right?
例如，当你看看我们的叔叔们时，他们没有上过大学，但他们做得很好，对吗？
Kenny's a truck driver.
肯尼是一名卡车司机。
And Phil is a connoisseur.
菲尔是一位鉴赏家。
A connoisseur.
一位鉴赏家。
DJ If you knew him, that would be really funny.
DJ 如果你认识他，那会很有趣。
That's very funny.
这很有趣。
I'm just saying, from where you're sitting if you looked around our family-- and our grandfather, Pepe.
我只是说，从你坐的地方环顾我们的家人以及我们的祖父佩佩。
He didn't go to college.
他没有上大学。
He had a good life.
他过着美好的生活。
He owned his own house, he had a car, he had a vacation home, or at least a vacation--
他拥有自己的房子，他有一辆汽车，他有一个度假屋，或者至少有一个假期——
Trailer.
预告片。
Adam Davidson Trailer, yeah.
亚当·戴维森预告片，是的。
And he was a truck dispatcher.
他是一名卡车调度员。
But here's what I want to say to you.
但这就是我想对你说的话。
I think that you don't understand that the world has changed from the world that our uncles and grandparents lived in and that your future will be much worse if you don't go to college.
我认为你不明白，这个世界已经与我们的叔叔和祖父母生活的世界不同了，如果你不上大学，你的未来会更糟糕。
And I want Pietra to tell me if I'm right.
我想让皮埃特拉告诉我我是否正确。
You know, Adam, I'm not sure you are after I've listened to DJ and hear a little about all he's done in his 25 years.
你知道，Adam，在我听过 DJ 并了解了他 25 年来所做的一切之后，我不确定你是不是这样。
A lot of people, historically, didn't go to college, worked in low-skill manufacturing jobs.
从历史上看，很多人没有上过大学，从事低技能的制造业工作。
And in the global economy today, those are exactly the jobs that have disappeared, or some people say moved, to China and Mexico and so forth.
在当今的全球经济中，这些工作岗位正是已经消失，或者有人说转移到了中国和墨西哥等地。
So if you worked in one of those old textile factories in Massachusetts and the textile factory closed, then you're kind of out of luck without a college degree.
因此，如果您在马萨诸塞州的一家旧纺织厂工作，而该纺织厂关闭了，那么您没有大学学位就有点运气不好了。
But if you listen to DJ's history, let's see, he was a bouncer at a strip club, he's putting up telecom equipment, he works on construction sites.
但如果你听听 DJ 的历史，让我们看看，他是脱衣舞俱乐部的保镖，他负责安装电信设备，他在建筑工地工作。
These are all careers or jobs that we would say are-- well, t the technical term would be they're non-tradable.
这些都是我们所说的职业或工作——好吧，用技术术语来说，它们是不可交易的。
So in other words, that bouncer job is not moving to China.
换句话说，保镖的工作不会转移到中国。
And, in fact, the strippers inside, their job's not moving to China either.
事实上，里面的脱衣舞娘，他们的工作也没有转移到中国。
And the work he's doing setting up telecom lines or what have you.
还有他正在做的建立电信线路或者其他什么的工作。
Digging ditches.
挖沟渠。
Pietra Rivoli That can't move.
皮特拉·里沃利 那不能动。
The ditch digging can't move.
挖的沟不能动。
And if I listen to some of your family history, there's a lot of jobs in that history that aren't moving too.
如果我听听你的一些家族史，那段历史中还有很多工作也没有发生变化。
Truck drivers-- those aren't going to China, for example.
例如，卡车司机不会去中国。
These jobs aren't going to disappear.
这些工作不会消失。
And it sounds like DJ's developing a number of those.
听起来 DJ 正在开发其中的一些产品。
Thanks.
谢谢。
Adam Davidson Well, I'm very frustrated because I thought--
亚当·戴维森：好吧，我非常沮丧，因为我想——
In your face, Adam.
当着你的面，亚当。
Adam Davidson I thought that Pietra and I would beat up on DJ.
Adam Davidson 我以为我和 Pietra 会打败 DJ。
Now the two of you are siding up against me.
现在你们两个联合起来反对我。
All right.
好的。
Adam Davidson There's a couple thoughts I have.
亚当·戴维森（Adam Davidson）我有几个想法。
My thought was that the global economy needs me more, but I guess you're saying that's not necessarily true.
我的想法是全球经济更需要我，但我猜你是说这不一定是真的。
Do you know how hard it is?
你知道这有多难吗？
You know how many lawyers within probably two miles of my house?
你知道我家附近两英里范围内有多少律师吗？
I don't know how many people I have-- I've got thousands of lawyers and I don't think I have a single person that I'd trust the wiring in my house to.
我不知道我有多少人——我有数千名律师，但我认为没有一个人可以信任我家里的线路。
And if somebody on that construction site that DJ is working is going to work their way up to supervisor and foreman and so forth and so on.
如果 DJ 所在的建筑工地上有人要晋升为主管和工头等等。
And some will not.
有些人不会。
Yeah, I do have more to offer.
是的，我确实还有更多可以提供的。
I can do landscaping.
我可以做园林绿化。
I can do electrical work.
我可以做电气工作。
What else?
还有什么？
Woodwork.
木制品。
I can do cabinets.
我可以做橱柜。
Yeah.
是的。
Adam Davidson I feel like I could see you as a leader.
亚当·戴维森（Adam Davidson） 我觉得我可以将你视为一位领导者。
I'm a social butterfly.
我是一名社交蝴蝶。
Pietra Rivoli These are great skills in any economy.
皮特拉·里沃利 这些在任何经济体中都是很棒的技能。
The guys I worry about, actually, are not people who sound like DJ.
事实上，我担心的人并不是那些听起来像 DJ 的人。
The guys I worry about are the guys who have worked in that same plant doing more or less the same job in the auto factory for 30 years and now the plant closes and now what have they got?
我担心的人是那些在同一家工厂工作了 30 年、在汽车工厂从事或多或少相同工作的人，现在工厂关闭了，现在他们得到了什么？
That, I think, is a bigger challenge.
我认为，这是一个更大的挑战。
They're much more at risk in this global economy.
在全球经济中，他们面临的风险要大得多。
Before we talked, I was thinking about our family.
在我们谈话之前，我在想我们的家庭。
And I was thinking the people who went to college, I feel like there's--
我在想那些上过大学的人，我觉得——
Very successful.
非常成功。
Adam Davidson But more anxious, also.
亚当·戴维森 (Adam Davidson) 但也更加焦虑。
DJ has a pretty awesome life, right?
DJ 的生活很精彩，对吧？
I mean, it's stable, it's fun, you leave your work at the workplace and you're off and you're having a good time.
我的意思是，它很稳定，很有趣，你把工作留在工作场所，然后你就可以享受美好的时光。
Oh yeah.
哦，是的。
I never talk about work when I'm not working.
当我不工作的时候，我从不谈论工作。
I make an exception for you, though.
不过，我为你破例。
All right.
好的。
Thanks.
谢谢。
Pietra Rivoli Well, my brother quit high school.
皮特拉·里沃利 嗯，我哥哥高中退学了。
And he has a very nice life.
他的生活非常美好。
He lives on a boat in Florida.
他住在佛罗里达州的一艘船上。
And he does marine carpentry and on any given day, if you looked at the two of us, I think it would look like he's having a better time.
他从事海洋木工工作，在任何一天，如果你看看我们两个人，我认为他看起来会过得更好。
I thought what we were going to learn in this conversation-- and it turns out I was totally wrong.
我以为我们将从这次谈话中学到什么——结果证明我完全错了。
What I thought they were going to learn is--
我以为他们会学到的是——
That I was wrong?
原来我错了？
Adam Davidson That DJ's wrong, I'm right, and he should go to college.
Adam Davidson 那个 DJ 错了，我是对的，他应该去上大学。
And that's just obvious and his life is going to get worse and worse.
这是显而易见的，他的生活会变得越来越糟。
That is clearly not what we've learned.
这显然不是我们所学到的。
Good.
好的。
Pietra Rivoli But that's because you and I have these snotty biases.
Pietra Rivoli 但这是因为你和我都有这些卑鄙的偏见。
That's true.
这是真的。
Pietra Rivoli Right?
皮特拉·里沃利 对吗？
No, I share them.
不，我分享它们。
Yeah DJ Everyone does.
是的 DJ 每个人都这样。
It's no big deal.
没什么大不了的。
I can't wait to see DJ and treat him with my newfound respect.
我迫不及待地想见到 DJ，并用我新获得的尊重来对待他。
Nice.
好的。
Pietra Rivoli Maybe we should-- yeah, we should just talk every couple years and--
皮特拉·里沃利 也许我们应该——是的，我们应该每隔几年谈谈——
Yeah, and follow his progress.
是的，关注他的进展。
I'd like to do that.
我想这样做。
That would be really nice.
那真是太好了。
Pietra Rivoli And ours, Adam.
皮特拉·里沃利 还有我们的，亚当。
Right, and ours.
对了，还有我们的。
Right, when my job is outsourced and DJ has a really good construction gig and I'm trying really hard to get him to hire me.
是的，当我的工作被外包并且 DJ 有一个非常好的建筑工作时，我非常努力地让他雇用我。
You're already hired.
你已经被录用了。
Adam Davidson Thanks, man.
亚当·戴维森 谢谢，伙计。
Adam Davidson is learning new things about the economy all the time and telling the world on NPR News and on the Planet Money podcast.
亚当·戴维森 (Adam Davidson) 一直在学习有关经济的新知识，并在 NPR 新闻和 Planet Money 播客上向世界讲述。
Act Two, Does This Suit Make Me Look Terrorist to You?
第二幕，这套衣服让你觉得我很恐怖吗？
My name is Rany Jazayerli.
我叫拉尼·贾扎耶利。
I'm a doctor.
我是一名医生。
I'm a physician here in the suburbs of Chicago.
我是芝加哥郊区的一名医生。
I'm a dermatologist.
我是一名皮肤科医生。
Which is to say that Rany Jazayerli is not in politics.
这就是说，拉尼·贾扎耶利（Rany Jazayerli）不参与政治。
He's not a pundit.
他不是专家。
He's not a public figure.
他不是公众人物。
But this past fall, during the 2008 election, something happened to a friend of his, something that made Rany feel like he and his friend were swimming against the tide of history.
但去年秋天，在 2008 年大选期间，他的一个朋友发生了一些事情，这让雷尼觉得他和他的朋友正在逆历史潮流而行。
And in his frustration, Rany wrote an essay that ended up in the election coverage at this website that was a favorite for political junkies-- FiveThirtyEight.com
在沮丧中，拉尼写了一篇文章，最终出现在这个政治迷最喜欢的网站上的选举报道中——FiveThirtyEight.com
Even though the election is passed, the essay still seemed relevant today and we invited him in to read it.
尽管选举已经通过，这篇文章今天看起来仍然有意义，我们邀请他进来阅读。
Basically, what happened is that candidate, Barack Obama, hired Randy's friend Mazen Asbahi to be the campaign's national coordinator for Muslim-American affairs.
基本上，发生的事情是，候选人巴拉克·奥巴马(Barack Obama)聘请兰迪的朋友马赞·阿斯巴希(Mazen Asbahi)担任竞选活动负责穆斯林美国事务的国家协调员。
And then, after just 10 days in this job, The Wall Street Journal ran a story that stated uncritically all kinds of rumors against Asbahi and explained that because of these rumors, Mazen Asbahi was resigning from the campaign.
然后，就职仅10天后，《华尔街日报》就发表了一篇报道，不加批判地陈述了各种针对阿斯巴希的谣言，并解释说，由于这些谣言，马赞·阿斯巴希将退出竞选活动。
Here's what Rany wrote.
这是雷尼写的。
Mazen Asbahi is one of my best friends.
Mazen Asbahi 是我最好的朋友之一。
Our kids play together and we dine together at least once a month.
我们的孩子们一起玩耍，我们每个月至少一起吃饭一次。
We're close.
我们很接近。
And now, thanks to the work of some racist jerkwads, his reputation has been sullied from coast to coast.
现在，由于一些种族主义混蛋的工作，他的声誉从东海岸到西海岸都被玷污了。
So I'm crushed for him as a friend, but I'm furious as a Muslim because what has happened is that Mazen was forced to resign because of a smear campaign that targeted him for the sin of being Muslim.
所以，作为朋友，我为他感到难过，但作为穆斯林，我感到愤怒，因为发生的事情是，马赞因为穆斯林罪孽而遭到抹黑，因此被迫辞职。
Nothing more, nothing less.
不多不少。
Let's parse the original Wall Street Journal column, if you don't mind.
如果您不介意的话，让我们来解析一下《华尔街日报》的原始专栏。
It says, quote, "In 2000, Mr. Asbahi briefly served on the board of Allied Asset Advisors Fund.
引用其中写道：“2000 年，阿斯巴希先生曾短暂在联合资产顾问基金 (Allied Asset Advisors Fund) 董事会任职。
Its other board members at the time included Jamal Said, the imam at a fundamentalist-controlled mosque in Illinois." Quote, 'I served on that board for only a few weeks before resigning as soon as I became aware of public allegations against another member of the board,' Mr. Asbahi said in his resignation letter.
当时的其他董事会成员包括贾迈勒·赛义德 (Jamal Said)，他是伊利诺伊州一座原教旨主义者控制的清真寺的伊玛目。”阿斯巴希在辞职信中表示，“我在该董事会任职仅几周，当我意识到针对另一位董事会成员的公开指控时，我就辞职了。”
'Since concerns have been raised about that brief time, I am stepping down to avoid distracting from Barack Obama's message of change'."
“由于人们对这段短暂的时间表示担忧，我将辞职，以避免分散人们对巴拉克·奥巴马的变革信息的注意力。”
Where do I start?
我从哪里开始？
Let's start with Jamal Said, the imam at a fundamentalist-controlled mosque.
让我们从原教旨主义者控制的清真寺的伊玛目贾迈勒·赛义德开始。
The consensus of the vast majority of Muslims in Chicago is that the mosque is not a fundamentalist anything, which is why it has such a large membership.
芝加哥绝大多数穆斯林的共识是，这座清真寺不属于原教旨主义，这就是它拥有如此众多会员的原因。
Some of the mosque's more recent projects include donating a riverfront garden to the City of Chicago-- there's a picture of Mayor Richard Daley at the ribbon cutting ceremony-- and becoming the first mosque in the country to run on solar power.
该清真寺最近的一些项目包括向芝加哥市捐赠一个河滨花园（剪彩仪式上有一张市长理查德·戴利的照片），并成为该国第一座使用太阳能的清真寺。
Said has never been convicted of any crime nor arrested for any crime nor indicted for any crime.
萨义德从未被判犯有任何罪行，也从未因任何罪行被捕或因任何罪行被起诉。
He has been accused of supporting Hamas but has never been found guilty of anything.
他被指控支持哈马斯，但从未被判有罪。
I'm not here to defend Said.
我不是来为赛义德辩护的。
I don't know him.
我不认识他。
But the point is that Said is not a convicted criminal or a mafia don that walks the streets while people cower in fear.
但关键是，萨义德不是一个被定罪的罪犯，也不是一个走在街上而人们因恐惧而畏缩的黑手党头目。
What he is is the imam of the largest mosque in the Chicago area.
他是芝加哥地区最大清真寺的伊玛目。
Mazen is an active member of the Muslim community here in Chicago.
马赞是芝加哥穆斯林社区的活跃成员。
It would be almost impossible for him to be active and not have some contact with Said.
他几乎不可能既活跃又不与萨义德有一些接触。
So Mazen that happened to serve on the board of an investment fund with Said until he learned about allegations that Said had been involved in raising funds for Hamas, at which time he quit the board.
因此，马赞恰好与萨义德一起在一家投资基金的董事会任职，直到他得知萨义德参与为哈马斯筹集资金的指控，此时他退出了董事会。
In 2000, before 9-11, before Iraq, before the US government shut down Muslim charities after accusing them of funneling money to Hamas and other designated terrorist groups.
2000年，在9·11事件之前，在伊拉克之前，在美国政府指控穆斯林慈善机构向哈马斯和其他指定的恐怖组织输送资金后关闭它们之前。
But in 2000, before our own government felt that these charitable activities were illegal, Mazen decided to dissociate himself from even the hint of impropriety.
但在 2000 年，在我们自己的政府认为这些慈善活动是非法的之前，马赞就决定与哪怕是一丝不当行为划清界限。
That doesn't support accusations that he's a terrorist sympathizer.
这并不支持他是恐怖分子同情者的指控。
It refutes them.
它反驳了他们。
The Wall Street Journal column continues, quote, "The Justice Department named Mr. Said an unindicted co-conspirator in the racketeering trial last year of several alleged Hamas fundraisers, which ended in a mistrial," unquote.
《华尔街日报》专栏继续引用，“司法部在去年针对几名哈马斯筹款活动的敲诈勒索审判中将赛义德先生列为未起诉的同谋，该审判以无效审判告终”，未引用。
Pardon my Arabic, but what the [BLEEP] is an unindicted co-conspirator and why is our government using this phrase?
请原谅我的阿拉伯语，但是 [BLEEP] 是一个未被起诉的同谋，为什么我们的政府使用这个短语？
Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?
在被证明有罪之前，无辜者会发生什么？
And whatever happened to the notion that indictment is just the first step towards a guilty verdict?
起诉只是有罪判决的第一步的观念到底发生了什么？
A prosecutor is supposed to be able to indict a ham sandwich.
检察官应该能够起诉火腿三明治。
So what does it say that they've never been able to indict Said?
那么他们从未能够起诉赛义德这说明了什么？
In that racketeering trial, which again, ended in a mistrial, the government listed close to 300 Muslim organizations as unindicted co-conspirators, which is tantamount to saying, we think some of them are terrorists and since we don't know who, we'll just blame them all.
在那次敲诈勒索审判中，政府将近 300 个穆斯林组织列为未起诉的同谋，这等于说，我们认为其中一些人是恐怖分子，因为我们不知道是谁，所以我们就将责任全部归咎于他们。
So much for innocent until proven guilty.
在被证明有罪之前，无辜者就这么多了。
This isn't even guilty until proven innocent.
在被证明无罪之前，这甚至不算有罪。
It's guilty with no recourse to prove you're innocent.
这是有罪的，没有办法证明你是无辜的。
How can you defend yourself against an indictment which doesn't exist?
对于不存在的指控，你如何为自己辩护？
Said is guilty by association, which makes Mazen, apparently guilty by association with someone who's guilty by association.
赛义德犯有关联罪，这使得马赞显然与一个有关联罪的人有关联罪。
It's McCarthyism, squared.
这就是麦卡锡主义。
Oh, and you know who else is associated with Said?
哦，你知道还有谁与赛义德有关吗？
As Jake Tapper of ABC News pointed out, the board that Mazen and Said both sat on was the Allied Asset Advisor Funds, a subsidiary of the North American Islamic Trust, or NAIT.
正如美国广播公司新闻频道的杰克·塔珀指出的那样，马赞和赛义德所在的董事会是联合资产顾问基金公司，该基金是北美伊斯兰信托基金（NAIT）的子公司。
NAIT is an adviser to the Dow Jones Islamic Fund-- Dow Jones, which publishes the Wall Street Journal , which broke the story that forced Mazen's resignation.
NAIT 是道琼斯伊斯兰基金（Dow Jones Islam Fund）的顾问，该基金出版的《华尔街日报》披露了迫使马赞辞职的故事。
We're officially through the looking glass, people.
各位，我们正式透过镜子了。
I'm so angry I don't know where to direct my anger.
我很生气，不知道该把怒气发泄到哪里。
What The Wall Street Journal is saying is that Mazen Asbahi has a link to people suspected of terrorism.
《华尔街日报》称，马赞·阿斯巴希与恐怖主义嫌疑人有联系。
What I'll tell you is this-- Mazen is not a terrorist.
我要告诉你的是——马赞不是恐怖分子。
He's not a fundamentalist.
他不是原教旨主义者。
He's not an Islamist.
他不是伊斯兰教徒。
The only thing he is guilty of is being a Muslim and being an active member of the Muslim community.
他唯一有罪的是作为一名穆斯林并作为穆斯林社区的积极成员。
If he wasn't, he wouldn't have been qualified for the position in the first place.
如果不是，他一开始就没有资格担任这个职位。
As Ahmed Rehab put it in today's Chicago Tribune , the headline should read, Muslim Liaison for Presidential Campaign Resigns After Connections to Muslim Community Are Found.
正如艾哈迈德·瑞哈布 (Ahmed Rehab) 在今天的《芝加哥论坛报》上所说，标题应该是：总统竞选活动的穆斯林联络员在与穆斯林社区的联系被发现后辞职。
If Mazen Asbahi is a terrorist, than I am a terrorist.
如果马赞·阿斯巴希是恐怖分子，那么我就是恐怖分子。
And if I were named to the same position, I'm sure they would have found a way to label me a terrorist as well.
如果我被任命为同样的职位，我相信他们也会找到一种方法给我贴上恐怖分子的标签。
And that's what this is about.
这就是本文的目的。
The same people who claim there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim will do everything in their power to slander people like Mazen Asbahi-- the epitome of a moderate, modern, integrated, tolerant, patriotic, American Muslim-- as an extremist, they will set their sights on any Muslim who seeks to be a part of the political process and will pick them off one by one until there are no more targets left.
那些声称不存在所谓温和穆斯林的人，会竭尽全力诽谤像马赞·阿斯巴希这样的人——温和、现代、融合、宽容、爱国的美国穆斯林的缩影——作为极端分子，他们会把目光投向任何寻求参与政治进程的穆斯林，并将他们一一剔除，直到没有更多的目标为止。
If Obama won't stand up to the flimsiest of accusations linking someone in his campaign to terrorists, however remotely and ridiculously, I'm not sure what he'll stand up against.
如果奥巴马不能接受将他的竞选活动中的某个人与恐怖分子联系起来的最站不住脚的指控，无论多么遥远和荒谬，我不确定他会站出来反对什么。
The world is at war right now, but it's not a war of Christian versus Muslim.
世界现在正处于战争之中，但这不是基督徒与穆斯林的战争。
It's a war of moderates versus extremists and the two groups are battling it out in places like Iraq and Afghanistan.
这是一场温和派与极端分子之间的战争，两个组织正在伊拉克和阿富汗等地展开较量。
But they're also battling here in America.
但他们也在美国这里战斗。
This week, the extremists won.
本周，极端分子获胜。
Rany Jazayerli.
拉尼·贾扎耶利。
In the many weeks since he wrote that essay, first, the Obama campaign hired another coordinator for Muslim-American outreach and the same exact thing happened to her.
自从他写那篇文章以来的许多周里，奥巴马竞选团队首先聘请了另一位穆斯林裔美国人外展协调员，同样的事情也发生在她身上。
She was accused of meeting with Muslim leaders who were suspected of terrorist sympathies with no proof of those sympathies.
她被指控会见了被怀疑同情恐怖主义的穆斯林领导人，但没有证据证明这些人同情恐怖主义。
It didn't actually get to the point where she had to resign, but seeing it happen again did make Rany a little more understanding of what the Obama campaign was up against and a little less mad at them.
这实际上并没有达到她必须辞职的地步，但看到这种情况再次发生确实让拉尼对奥巴马竞选团队所面临的问题有了更多的理解，也不再那么对他们生气了。
After that, as perhaps you've heard, the Obama campaign won the presidency.
此后，正如您可能听说的那样，奥巴马竞选团队赢得了总统职位。
Rany's friend Mazen is hoping that he may end up getting a job with the Obama administration.
拉尼的朋友马赞希望他最终能在奥巴马政府找到一份工作。
Act Three, Family Feudalism.
第三幕，家庭封建主义。
All right, ready cue trumpets?
好吧，准备好提示喇叭了吗？
Cue trumpets.
提示喇叭。
Welcome to America's favorite game show.
欢迎来到美国最受欢迎的游戏节目。
It's time to make your phone call to the 14th century.
是时候给 14 世纪打电话了。
I'm your host, Chip McMartin.
我是主持人奇普·麦克马丁。
What information will our three lucky contestants share with the people of the Middle Ages?
我们的三位幸运参赛者将与中世纪的人们分享哪些信息？
Let's find out.
让我们来看看吧。
Your first contestant, ladies and gentlemen, Gregory [?
女士们先生们，你们的第一位参赛者格雷戈里[？
Palcapo.
帕尔卡波。
?] Hi, Greg.
？]嗨，格雷格。
Hi, Chip.
嗨，奇普。
Chip Mcmartin Welcome to Phone Call to the 14th Century.
Chip Mcmartin 欢迎来到 14 世纪的电话。
Says here on the card that you want to be a race car driver.
在卡片上写明您想成为一名赛车手。
I do but I can't.
我愿意，但我不能。
Chip Mcmartin OK, well, you know the rules.
奇普·麦克马丁 好吧，你知道规则的。
This phone is connected to a phone in a hut somewhere in the 14th century.
这部电话与 14 世纪某个小屋里的一部电话相连。
You've got 30 seconds to impart as much useful information as you can to the people back then.
你有30秒的时间向当时的人们传递尽可能多的有用信息。
What are you going to tell them?
你要告诉他们什么？
I think I'm going to focus on hygiene and stuff.
我想我会专注于卫生和其他事情。
Hi, this is Gregory [?
嗨，这是格雷戈里[？
Palcapo, ?] talking machines from the 21st century.
Palcapo，？] 21 世纪的会说话的机器。
Don't be scared, OK?
别害怕，好吗？
Write everything down.
把一切都写下来。
Wash your hands.
洗手。
Boil your water.
把水烧开。
There's no such thing as witches.
世界上不存在女巫这样的东西。
Everybody floats.
每个人都漂浮着。
Monkeys are cousins of God.
猴子是上帝的表兄弟。
Pass.
经过。
Monkeys are cousins of humans.
猴子是人类的近亲。
The finches had different beaks to pick up stuff.
雀类有不同的喙来拾取东西。
A fish walked out of the water.
一条鱼从水里走了出来。
He could talk.
他会说话。
That means there's no God.
这意味着没有上帝。
Dig up oil.
挖油。
it's a black syrup in the ground.
这是地下的黑色糖浆。
Light it on fire.
将其点燃。
Make a motorcycle.
制作摩托车。
Make a factory.
建一个工厂。
Don't throw away the middle of the donut.
不要扔掉甜甜圈的中间部分。
You can sell it.
你可以卖掉它。
Go to Egypt.
去埃及吧。
There's a bunch of mummies and gold.
有一堆木乃伊和黄金。
It's yours for the taking.
这是你的了。
Some of the popes are evil.
有些教皇是邪恶的。
Some of the popes are evil.
有些教皇是邪恶的。
Some of the popes are evil indeed.
有些教皇确实是邪恶的。
Ladies and gentlemen, let's see what our judges say about that.
女士们先生们，让我们看看我们的评委对此有何评论。
And they're going to give you 12 and a half major concepts.
他们会给你 12 个半的主要概念。
That puts you in good standing.
这会让您享有良好的信誉。
Let's meet our first challenger.
让我们来见见我们的第一个挑战者。
Please welcome Blaine Cardoza.
欢迎布莱恩·卡多萨。
Hi, Blaine.
嗨，布莱恩。
Hi.
你好。
Chip Mcmartin You ready to make your phone call to the 14th century?
Chip Mcmartin 你准备好给 14 世纪打电话了吗？
Oh yeah.
哦，是的。
Chip Mcmartin You think you can beat Greg?
奇普·麦克马丁 你认为你能打败格雷格吗？
Let's just say it rhymes with piddle pinglish.
我们就说它与 piddle pinglish 押韵吧。
Whan that Aprill, with his shoures soote
那个四月，带着他的烟灰
The global warming hath perced to the roote
全球变暖已经影响到根
And bathed the omega-3 fatty acids in the flour,
然后将omega-3脂肪酸浸入面粉中，
When Zephyrus eek with his antibiotics, such as penicillin
当 Zephyrus 寻求抗生素（例如青霉素）时
Hath in every holt and heeth The plug-in hybrid, and the yonge sonne
插电式混合动力车，以及 yonge sonne
Hath in the Ram his halfe Chip Mcmartin [?
他的一半在公羊里吗？奇普·麦克马丁[？
Five seconds, Blaine.
五秒钟，布莱恩。
halfe-- half hour pizza delivery or your money back.
halfe——半小时送披萨，否则退款。
Time's up.
时间到了。
Blaine Cardoza, that was incredible.
布莱恩·卡多萨，这太不可思议了。
Are you sure you didn't just make that up?
你确定这不是你编造的吗？
Hi, [?
你好， [？
eh-- mummy?
呃——妈妈？
Chip Mcmartin OK, well, what do our judges say?
奇普·麦克马丁 好吧，我们的评委怎么说？
And they say that's correct.
他们说这是正确的。
They're going to give you nine and a half major concepts.
他们将为您提供九个半主要概念。
Another incredible score.
又一个令人难以置信的成绩。
Ladies and gentlemen, what will it take from your final challenger?
女士们先生们，你们的最终挑战者会采取什么行动？
Let's meet him, Donald Darndy.
让我们来认识一下他，唐纳德·达迪。
Hi, Don.
嗨，唐。
Hi, Chip.
嗨，奇普。
Chip Mcmartin What are you going to tell the people of the 14th century?
Chip Mcmartin 你要告诉 14 世纪的人们什么？
I'm just going to focus on being a teacher like I am right here on earth.
我只想专注于成为一名老师，就像我在地球上一样。
Well, it's the same planet, Don, just a different century.
嗯，这是同一个星球，唐，只是不同的世纪。
Ready, phone call, begin.
准备好，打电话，开始。
This is Don Darndy, teacher from the future.
这是唐·达迪（Don Darndy），来自未来的老师。
OK, first of all, always believe in yourself.
好吧，首先，永远相信自己。
Never give up your dreams or they'll give up on you.
永远不要放弃你的梦想，否则他们会放弃你。
The bubonic plague-- it might seem bad now, but you'll look back on it and laugh.
黑死病——现在看起来可能很糟糕，但你回想起来会大笑。
You're losing, Don.
你输了，唐。
Donald Darndy OK, forget it.
唐纳德·达迪 好吧，算了。
I want you to do something for me now.
我现在要你为我做一件事。
Get some coins, a suit of armor, any old books you don't want, any tapestries, anything with a unicorn on it.
买一些硬币，一套盔甲，任何你不想要的旧书，任何挂毯，任何上面有独角兽的东西。
Put it in a box and write my name on it-- Donald Darndy.
把它放进盒子里，写上我的名字——唐纳德·达迪。
Give the the box to Christopher Columbus.
把盒子交给克里斯托弗·哥伦布。
Tell Columbus to give it to Lewis and Clark.
告诉哥伦布把它交给刘易斯和克拉克。
Have them leave the box at the Elks Lodge in Modesto, California.
让他们把盒子留在加利福尼亚州莫德斯托的麋鹿旅馆。
Oh, Don.
哦，唐。
You told them to send you a bunch of stuff from the Middle Ages?
你让他们寄给你一堆中世纪的东西？
It'll get here.
它会到达这里。
Chip Mcmartin Wouldn't it have gotten here already.
奇普·麦克马丁：它不是已经到这里了吗？
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Chip Mcmartin Let's see what our judges say, and they're going to give you 0.023 major concepts.
Chip Mcmartin 让我们看看我们的评委怎么说，他们会给你 0.023 个主要概念。
It's not enough to beat Greg, who becomes our new champion and millionaire.
击败格雷格还不够，他成为我们的新冠军和百万富翁。
Congratulations.
恭喜。
And ladies and gentlemen, come see use next week when we make our Phone Call to the 14th Century.
女士们先生们，下周我们打电话给 14 世纪时，请来看看使用情况。
That was the San Francisco comedy group Kasper Hauser.
那是旧金山喜剧团体 Kasper Hauser。
Their latest book, Weddings of the Times , a parody of the New York Times wedding pages, comes out this May.
他们的最新书《时代婚礼》模仿了《纽约时报》的婚礼版面，将于今年五月出版。
You can find more of their comedy online at www.kasperhauser.com.
您可以在 www.kasperhauser.com 上在线找到更多他们的喜剧。
Coming up, it takes 61 years to build up a reputation and, when you are on the wrong side of history, just seven weeks to destroy it.
接下来，需要 61 年的时间来建立声誉，而当你站在历史的错误一边时，只需七周即可摧毁它。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.
一分钟后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, we choose a theme and bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
在我们的节目中，我们每周都会选择一个主题，并为您带来有关该主题的各种不同类型的故事。
Today's show, stories of people who think they are stuck on the wrong side of history.
今天的节目讲述了那些认为自己站在历史错误一边的人们的故事。
We've arrived at Act Four of our show.
我们已经到了演出的第四幕了。
Act Four, The Other Guy.
第四幕，另一个人。
If you've never lived in Chicago, chances are you don't have much idea about what Harold Washington meant to the city.
如果您从未在芝加哥生活过，您很可能不太了解哈罗德·华盛顿对这座城市的意义。
Washington became the city's first black mayor in 1983.
1983年，华盛顿成为该市第一位黑人市长。
And it caused a historic change.
并引发了历史性的变化。
Before Harold-- and everybody called him Harold-- even basic city services like garbage collection were worse in black neighborhoods.
在哈罗德（大家都叫他哈罗德）之前，黑人社区的垃圾收集等基本城市服务也更差。
Chicago was the city where race relations were so bad Martin Luther King give up on it back in the 1960s.
芝加哥是一座种族关系非常糟糕的城市，马丁·路德·金早在 20 世纪 60 年代就放弃了它。
Barack Obama moved to Chicago after Harold took office, and in his book, Dreams from My Father , Obama writes about how people talked about their new black mayor, quote, "with a familiarity and affection normally reserved for a relative." "Had to be here before Harold to understand what he means to this city," an old timer tells Obama.
哈罗德就职后，巴拉克·奥巴马搬到了芝加哥，在他的《父亲的梦想》一书中，奥巴马写道，人们如何谈论他们的新黑人市长，引用的话，“带着通常为亲戚保留的熟悉和感情”。 “必须在哈罗德之前来到这里，才能了解他对这座城市的意义，”一位老前辈告诉奥巴马。
"Before Harold, seems like we'd always been second-class citizens-- plantation politics, police brutality rampant." Harold set things so that for the first time, white and black citizens were treated the same by the city government, but is remembered just as much for his charisma.
“在哈罗德之前，我们似乎一直是二等公民——种植园政治、警察暴力猖獗。”哈罗德首次让白人和黑人公民受到市政府的同等对待，但他的魅力同样被人们铭记。
He was eloquent, he was personable, he did not mince words.
他能言善辩，风度翩翩，不拐弯抹角。
You pick up a local paper and these guys just wax so eloquently.
你拿起一份当地报纸，这些家伙就滔滔不绝地滔滔不绝。
They don't know what the hell they're talking about.
他们不知道自己到底在说什么。
They don't have the slightest idea about the phenomena, don't understand the history, don't understand the mindset, don't understand what push people.
他们对现象一无所知，不了解历史，不了解心态，不明白是什么在推动人们。
All they say is, gee, black folks must be angry.
他们只说，哎呀，黑人一定很生气。
Gee, black folks vote for black folks.
哎呀，黑人投票给黑人。
They must hate white folks.
他们一定讨厌白人。
Ain't got nothing to do with nothing.
与无事无关。
Nothing.
没有什么。
Crazy stuff.
疯狂的东西。
So Harold was this historic figure for the city.
所以哈罗德是这座城市的历史人物。
The big library downtown and a college are named after him.
市中心的大图书馆和一所学院都以他的名字命名。
One of the first hour-long stories we ever did on our program was about him.
我们在节目中制作的第一个长达一小时的故事就是关于他的。
So imagine for a second what it was like to be the guy who he ran against and who he beat in an historic election back in the 1980s.
因此，请想象一下，在 20 世纪 80 年代一场历史性选举中，作为他的对手并击败他的人会是什么样子。
Well, that guy was a Republican named Bernie Epton.
嗯，那个人是共和党人，名叫伯尼·艾普顿。
And for anybody who actually remembers him, Epton is known not just for being the white opponent for the city's first black mayor, he's also remembered for the way his campaign was fought.
对于任何真正记得他的人来说，埃普顿不仅因为他是该市第一位黑人市长的白人对手而闻名，还因为他的竞选方式而被人们记住。
It was not pretty.
这并不漂亮。
The campaign did not quash the racial tension in the city.
这场运动并没有平息该市的种族紧张局势。
It unleashed it in all its fury.
它释放了它所有的愤怒。
Reporter Alex Kotlowitz, who lives in Chicago, found himself recently revisiting the Epton story.
住在芝加哥的记者亚历克斯·科特洛维茨最近重新审视了爱普顿的故事。
One of Epton's political peers once called Epton The Accidental Racist, though as Alex points out, there's more to him that the way the most Chicagoans think of him.
埃普顿的一位政界同僚曾称埃普顿为“意外的种族主义者”，尽管正如亚历克斯指出的那样，他的魅力远不止大多数芝加哥人对他的看法。
I thought of Bernie Epton this past October while watching John McCain.
去年十月，当我观看约翰·麦凯恩的节目时，我想起了伯尼·艾普顿。
The parallels with the Epton-Washington race were eerie-- a white Republican with a reputation as a principled guy waging an increasingly bitter fight against a charismatic black opponent.
这与埃普顿-华盛顿竞选的相似之处令人毛骨悚然——一位以有原则而闻名的白人共和党人与一位魅力超凡的黑人对手展开了一场越来越激烈的斗争。
The details of the two races were widely different-- different men, different eras.
这两个种族的细节有很大不同——不同的人，不同的时代。
But both candidates seem like actors miscast as the heavy and then surprised to find themselves stuck in that role.
但两位候选人似乎都像演员一样，被错误地扮演了沉重的角色，然后惊讶地发现自己陷入了这个角色。
Epton, like McCain, was his own man.
埃普顿和麦凯恩一样，都是他自己的人。
He was an iconoclast, not afraid to poke fun at himself.
他是一个反传统者，不怕自嘲。
--Republican candidates are supposedly low profile in Chicago, but it was pointed out to me that there was a feature piece done on you in People Magazine , I guess, this is week or-- that might be the most exposure any Republican's ever had in Chicago.
——共和党候选人在芝加哥应该是低调的，但有人向我指出，《人物》杂志上有一篇关于你的专题文章，我想，这周或者——这可能是共和党在芝加哥曝光最多的一次。
Well, actually, I think that they got lost.
好吧，实际上，我认为他们迷路了。
They didn't realize I was Republican until they finished.
直到他们完成后，他们才意识到我是共和党人。
Otherwise, I'm sure they wouldn't have gone ahead with it.
否则，我确信他们不会继续这样做。
There's a reason people might not have known Epton was a Republican.
人们可能不知道埃普顿是共和党人，这是有原因的。
He was this unusually progressive guy, an early opponent of McCarthyism.
他是一个异常进步的人，是麦卡锡主义的早期反对者。
And when he served in the state legislature, one of his law partners says that he was so pro-consumer that it ticked off some of their law clients-- insurance companies.
当他在州立法机构任职时，他的一位法律合伙人表示，他非常支持消费者，这激怒了他们的一些法律客户——保险公司。
And on the race question, he was clear about where he stood.
在种族问题上，他很清楚自己的立场。
He marched in Memphis with the sanitation workers after Dr. King's assassination.
金博士遇刺后，他与环卫工人一起在孟菲斯游行。
He sat on this board of an old age home for African-American women.
他是一家非裔美国妇女养老院的董事会成员。
And as a state rep for 14 years, he fought redlining.
作为州代表 14 年，他一直在与红线作斗争。
Even in his personal life, his principles guided him.
即使在他的个人生活中，他的原则也指引着他。
His son Jeff went to Hyde Park High School, where he was one of only a handful of white students in his freshman class.
他的儿子杰夫就读于海德公园高中，他是新生班上为数不多的白人学生之一。
For years, we'd watched people move out of the neighborhood to the North Side or to the suburbs to get their children away from what was becoming a majority black school district.
多年来，我们看到人们从社区搬到北区或郊区，让他们的孩子远离黑人占多数的学区。
Dad never did that.
爸爸从来没有这样做过。
This stuff mattered to him absolutely and he believed that if you moved out of the city-- if white, middle-class families left-- it was a betrayal.
这些东西对他来说绝对重要，他相信如果你搬出这座城市——如果白人中产阶级家庭离开——那就是背叛。
Bernie Epton did not set out to oppose the first serious black mayoral candidate in Chicago's history.
伯尼·埃普顿并没有打算反对芝加哥历史上第一位认真的黑人市长候选人。
In fact, when he got the Republican nomination, the Democratic primary was still up in the air.
事实上，当他获得共和党提名时，民主党初选仍悬而未决。
It was a three-way race among Harold Washington, Jane Byrne, and Richard Daley.
这是哈罗德·华盛顿、简·伯恩和理查德·戴利之间的三人竞争。
He thought he'd be running against either Byrne or Daley and he knew we didn't have much of a chance.
他认为他将与伯恩或戴利竞争，他知道我们没有太多机会。
Chicago, for decades, has been a thoroughly Democratic city.
几十年来，芝加哥一直是一座彻底的民主城市。
In the previous mayoral election in 1979, the Democratic candidate received 82% of the vote, so Epton knew he didn't stand a chance.
在1979年的上一次市长选举中，民主党候选人获得了82%的选票，因此埃普顿知道自己没有机会。
And that was OK.
那没关系。
This was the ritual, that a Republican candidate would run their perfunctory campaign and use it, maybe, as a chance to raise some issues.
这是一种惯例，共和党候选人会进行敷衍的竞选活动，并可能利用它作为提出一些问题的机会。
Does it matter to you what happens tonight in the Democratic primary?
今晚民主党初选发生的事情对你来说重要吗？
Not at all.
一点也不。
I think any one of the three will be extremely difficult to defeat.
我认为这三者中的任何一个都很难被击败。
But on primary night, everything suddenly changed.
但初选之夜，一切突然发生了变化。
As it became increasingly clear that Harold Washington-- not Byrne or Daley-- would be Upton's Democratic opponent.
随着越来越明显的是，哈罗德·华盛顿——而不是伯恩或戴利——将成为厄普顿的民主党对手。
So many people are saying if Harold Washington wins, the white people will be afraid and they will then vote for you and that improves your chances.
很多人都说，如果哈罗德·华盛顿获胜，白人就会害怕，然后他们就会投票给你，这会增加你的机会。
Well, I resent that very much.
嗯，我对此非常反感。
I think that Harold Washington and I, if he is a winner, I am positive that we will come out with a joint statement, perhaps speak together to repudiate it.
我认为哈罗德·华盛顿和我，如果他是胜利者，我确信我们会发表一份联合声明，也许一起发言来否认它。
I don't want to be elected because I'm white and Harold doesn't want to be elected because he's black.
我不想当选，因为我是白人，哈罗德也不想当选，因为他是黑人。
I want to be elected because I'm the best qualified.
我想当选，因为我是最有资格的。
Epton sounds certain about how he's going to run his campaign-- with honor, with principles.
埃普顿听起来很确定他将如何开展竞选活动——带着荣誉和原则。
But once it became clear that Washington, a black man, was his opponent, everyone-- and I mean everyone, people in the neighborhoods to the operatives in the national republican party to Bernie Epton himself-- instinctually knew that now Epton actually had a chance to win.
但一旦清楚华盛顿这个黑人是他的对手，每个人——我是说每个人，从邻居到全国共和党的特工，再到伯尼·艾普顿本人——本能地知道现在艾普顿实际上有机会获胜。
One of the people working on his campaign was his daughter, Dale.
他的女儿戴尔是参与他竞选活动的人之一。
She was there when national Republican operatives showed up in Chicago from Washington with money and ideas.
当全国共和党特工带着金钱和想法从华盛顿出现在芝加哥时，她就在那里。
As much as they were supposedly working for us, as soon as the people from D.C. came down, we had a new campaign slogan, which we got a lot of flak for.
尽管他们据称为我们工作，但华盛顿特区的人们一下来，我们就有了一个新的竞选口号，我们为此受到了很多批评。
And that slogan was, Tv Ad Epton for mayor before it's too late.
那个口号是，电视广告艾普顿竞选市长，以免为时已晚。
This slogan-- "before it's too late"-- became infamous, not only in Chicago but around the country.
这句口号——“趁一切还来得及”——变得臭名昭著，不仅在芝加哥，而且在全国各地。
Its meaning seemed transparent, but not to Epton.
它的含义似乎是显而易见的，但对爱普顿来说却并非如此。
Epton insisted, both in public and in private, that "before it's too late" plainly refer to Chicago's financial problems.
埃普顿在公开场合和私下都坚称，“在为时已晚之前”明确指的是芝加哥的金融问题。
And we thought "Upton-- before it's too late," because of a fiscal situation, you know, we didn't see anything else with that slogan.
我们认为“厄普顿——在为时已晚之前”，因为财政状况，你知道，我们没有看到任何其他带有这个口号的东西。
Apparently a lot of other people did.
显然很多其他人也这么做了。
They felt it was a racist saying that we were saying, before an Afro-American would be elected mayor, that it was intended to show that my father was white and Harold was black.
他们认为这是一种种族主义言论，在非裔美国人当选市长之前，我们说这是为了表明我的父亲是白人而哈罗德是黑人。
Dale, do you think that the people from Washington who came in and came up with the slogan-- do you think they believed that as well, or do you think they--
戴尔，你认为那些从华盛顿进来提出口号的人——你认为他们也相信这一点吗？或者你认为他们——
No, I think that they knew that it might be misconstrued.
不，我认为他们知道这可能会被误解。
The slogan set a tone for the campaign-- the very tone Epton said he didn't want.
这个口号为竞选活动定下了基调——而艾普顿表示他不想要这样的基调。
Now, it was going to be whites versus blacks, with Epton as the white savior.
现在，白人与黑人之间的较量将展开，艾普顿将成为白人的救世主。
And soon, anonymous leaflets popped up in white neighborhoods all over the city.
很快，匿名传单在全市的白人社区中纷纷出现。
One of them read, "Your vote for Mr. Epton will stop contamination of the city hall by a Mr. Baboon." Around town, Epton supporters donned various buttons.
其中一封写道：“您对埃普顿先生的投票将阻止狒狒先生污染市政厅。”在城镇周围，爱普顿的支持者佩戴着各种徽章。
One depicted a watermelon with a slash through it.
其中一幅描绘了一个西瓜，上面有一条斜线。
Another button had nothing on it at all.
另一个按钮上根本没有任何东西。
It was just white.
它只是白色的。
None of these were being distributed by Upton's campaign, but it was all being done in his name.
这些都不是由厄普顿的竞选团队分发的，但这一切都是以他的名义进行的。
One day, my mom and my father and I were walking somewhere.
有一天，我和妈妈、爸爸一起去某个地方散步。
And I remember someone coming up and saying to me, "I'm going to vote for your father because he's white." And I said, "Don't bother.
我记得有人走过来对我说：“我要投票给你父亲，因为他是白人。”我说：“别打扰。
Please, we don't want your vote." And my mom said, "Dale, you just have to realize that some people feel this way." I never saw my father recoil from-- I never saw him show any issues with getting support for the wrong reasons, unlike myself.
拜托，我们不需要你的投票。”我妈妈说：“戴尔，你必须意识到有些人有这种感觉。”我从未见过我的父亲因为错误的原因而表现出任何问题，这与我不同。
He had been in politics a long time and he was willing to accept a vote for a vote.
他从政已久，愿意接受一票就一票。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you all so much.
非常感谢大家。
We have some other meetings to go to.
我们还有一些其他会议要去参加。
Believe me, I'd much rather stay here with you.
相信我，我宁愿留在这里陪你。
I don't think there's any meeting that can compete with you.
我认为没有任何会议可以与您竞争。
I've found a fountain of youth.
我找到了青春之泉。
Being with you, your enthusiasm--
和你在一起，你的热情——
The rallies energized Epton.
这次集会让爱普顿充满了活力。
In just a few weeks, he'd gone from being a pretty obscure but principled state legislator to a man who was now drawing crowds of 10,000.
在短短几周内，他从一个默默无闻但有原则的州议员变成了现在吸引了一万名群众的人。
Bernie, you look tired.
伯尼，你看起来很累。
Bernie Epton Actually, I love it.
伯尼·艾普顿 事实上，我喜欢它。
I don't often get this kind of exposure.
我不经常得到这样的曝光。
It's really a pleasure.
真是一种享受。
Are you having a good time?
你玩得开心吗？
Bernie Epton Much better than I expected, especially now.
伯尼·艾普顿（Bernie Epton）比我预期的要好得多，尤其是现在。
And most places he went, hordes of people chanted his name-- Bernie, Bernie, Bernie.
在他去过的大多数地方，成群结队的人们高喊着他的名字——伯尼，伯尼，伯尼。
It was uncomfortable.
这很不舒服。
It was uncomfortable for a whole bunch of people.
这对一大群人来说都很不舒服。
Don Siegel was one of Epton's law partners.
唐·西格尔是爱普顿的法律合伙人之一。
It was always interesting to me when I would watch on television and he would if he would go out to the Southwest Side where the Republican votes were-- and certainly the anti-Washington votes.
当我在电视上看他的时候，我总是很感兴趣，如果他愿意去西南区，那里有共和党选票——当然还有反华盛顿选票。
And it was Bernie, Bernie, Bernie.
这是伯尼，伯尼，伯尼。
And I remember thinking, nobody calls him Bernie unless you really knew him well.
我记得我当时想，除非你真的很了解他，否则没有人叫他伯尼。
And yet, here are these strangers, with whom he would probably not want to sit down and have a cup of coffee because they were so different from him politically and emotionally and every other way, now saying Bernie, Bernie, Bernie.
然而，这里有这些陌生人，他可能不想和他们坐下来喝杯咖啡，因为他们在政治上、情感上以及其他方面都与他如此不同，现在说伯尼，伯尼，伯尼。
But that was not him.
但那不是他。
Ladies and gentlemen, the next mayor of the city of Chicago, Bernie Epton.
女士们、先生们，芝加哥市下一任市长伯尼·艾普顿 (Bernie Epton)。
When I started this campaign a long time ago, it was, Bernie who?
很久以前，当我开始这项活动时，伯尼是谁？
Today, I have an identity and that I owe entirely to all of you.
今天，我拥有了自己的身份，这完全归功于你们所有人。
Very quickly, Epton's candidacy sparked a mass defection from the Democratic party.
很快，艾普顿的候选资格引发了民主党的大规模叛逃。
It was unprecedented.
这是前所未有的。
Some of the most prominent white Democratic politicians in the city-- these longtime party hacks-- in a town where party loyalty was everything, were now turning their back on their own mayoral candidate because he happened to be black.
这座城市中一些最著名的白人民主党政客——这些长期的政党黑客——在一个对政党忠诚就是一切的小镇上，现在却背弃了自己的市长候选人，因为他碰巧是黑人。
And Epton got caught up in that fervor and the possibility of winning.
埃普顿被这种热情和获胜的可能性所吸引。
It was blinding.
真是令人眼花缭乱。
But one of Epton's campaign workers-- his policy director, Haskel Levy, began having qualms.
但爱普顿的一位竞选工作人员——他的政策总监哈斯克尔·利维(Haskel Levy)开始感到疑虑。
He'd already confronted Epton over the slogan and Epton, even while defending the slogan, told him, "Haskel, stay with me.
他已经就这个口号与爱普顿对质，而爱普顿即使在捍卫这个口号的同时，也告诉他：“哈斯克尔，和我在一起。
If we win this election, I'll get rid of all these Republican operatives and opportunistic Democrats and we'll do good work once we get in." And so Haskel stayed.
如果我们赢得这次选举，我将摆脱所有这些共和党特工和机会主义民主党人，一旦我们进入，我们就会做好工作。”于是哈斯克尔留下来了。
But then, one afternoon at campaign headquarters, Haskel noticed a pile of papers by the front door.
但有一天下午，在竞选总部，哈斯克尔注意到前门旁有一堆文件。
They were hundreds of copies of an op-ed piece written by William Safire, conservative columnist for the New York Times .
它们是《纽约时报》保守派专栏作家威廉·萨菲尔撰写的一篇专栏文章的数百份。
It basically claimed the following-- if blacks can vote for blacks because they're blacks, whites can vote for whites because they're whites.
它基本上声称：如果黑人可以投票给黑人，因为他们是黑人，那么白人也可以投票给白人，因为他们是白人。
And I looked at it and I just hit the roof.
我看着它，我简直要崩溃了。
And I took the whole pile and threw it into the garbage can.
我把整堆东西都拿起来扔进了垃圾桶。
It's a shallow-- it's a stupid way of looking at the world.
这是一种肤浅的、愚蠢的看待世界的方式。
It's just false.
这只是假的。
Right, but also, it was in the context of what had been going on in that campaign.
是的，而且，这是在竞选活动的背景下进行的。
In some ways, the campaign was using it to justify--
在某些方面，竞选活动利用它来证明——
[UNINTELLIGIBLE] incendiary-- an incendiary thing.
[难以理解]燃烧物——燃烧物。
It was being passed out-- people were coming in to collect them to give out in the neighborhoods.
它正在被分发——人们进来收集它们并在社区中分发。
When blacks get screwed because they're blacks, they're a legitimate interest group.
当黑人因为他们是黑人而被搞砸时，他们就是一个合法的利益集团。
What is the white interest group?
什么是白人利益集团？
I can understand a Pole voting for a Pole, a Czech voting for a Czech, but why would a white vote for another white?
我可以理解波兰人投票给波兰人，捷克人投票给捷克人，但为什么白人会投票给另一个白人呢？
The only thing, in this particular circumstance, they have in common is that they don't like blacks.
在这种特殊情况下，他们唯一的共同点是他们不喜欢黑人。
And so it was after that that you went and talked to Bernie Epton the second time.
就在这之后，你第二次去和伯尼·艾普顿交谈。
This was the second time and I said that I'd had it.
这是第二次了，我说我已经受够了。
I said, do you realize what's happening?
我说，你知道发生了什么事吗？
I said, you have to repudiate the racist campaign.
我说，你必须否认种族主义运动。
You've got to repudiate any people that are supporting out of racist reasons.
你必须否认任何出于种族主义原因而支持的人。
And if you don't, I'm gone.
如果你不这样做，我就走了。
And if you don't, I'm voting for Harold Washington.
如果你不这样做，我将投票给哈罗德·华盛顿。
And Bernie said his argument is correct-- Safire's argument is correct.
伯尼说他的论点是正确的——萨菲尔的论点是正确的。
And I said, that's it Bernie.
我说，就是这样，伯尼。
And that's when he got pissed off.
就在那时他生气了。
And he picked up my coat and jacket and briefcase and he ostentatiously threw it out of his office.
他拿起我的外套、夹克和公文包，然后大肆地把它们扔出办公室。
And he literally said, get that [BLEEP] out.
他字面意思是，把那个[BLEEP]拿出来。
And he threw me out of the office.
然后他就把我赶出了办公室。
And I left.
然后我就离开了。
That was the end of it.
事情就这样结束了。
Washington and Epton had served together in the state legislature and they knew each other well.
华盛顿和埃普顿曾一起在州议会任职，他们彼此很了解。
In fact, during the campaign, Washington at one point told a friend, that's not Bernie.
事实上，在竞选期间，华盛顿曾一度告诉一位朋友，那不是伯尼。
That's not the Bernie I know.
那不是我认识的伯尼。
Chicago's Democratic candidate for mayor, Harold Washington, and Democratic presidential front runner Walter Mondale, were run out of a white neighborhood in Chicago today.
芝加哥民主党市长候选人哈罗德·华盛顿和民主党总统竞选领跑者沃尔特·蒙代尔今天在芝加哥的一个白人社区中落选。
And then it happened, an incident so sour that the whole nation took notice.
然后事情就发生了，这件事非常糟糕，引起了全国的关注。
This is a report from NBC National News.
这是 NBC 全国新闻的报道。
It's Palm Sunday at Saint Pascal's church on the North Side, and the streets are lined with white people holding Epton for Mayor signs.
今天是北区圣帕斯卡教堂的圣枝主日，街道两旁都是白人举着埃普顿的市长标语牌。
The Washington-Mondale motorcade stopped a block short of the church.
华盛顿-蒙代尔车队在距离教堂一个街区的地方停了下来。
The two candidates walked the rest of the way through an angry crowd, encountering the most open racial hostility of this racially-tense campaign.
两位候选人在愤怒的人群中走完了剩下的路，遭遇了这场种族紧张的竞选活动中最公开的种族敌意。
95% of the blacks vote for Washington.
95%的黑人投票给华盛顿。
They are more racist than we are.
他们比我们更加种族主义。
Who the hell are they trying to kid?
他们到底想骗谁？
Within minutes, Washington decided to cancel this appearance.
几分钟之内，华盛顿决定取消这次露面。
Someone had scrawled on the church in huge letters, "nigger die".
有人在教堂上用大字潦草地写着“黑鬼去死”。
Epton had to respond, and he did.
爱普顿必须做出回应，他也这么做了。
I am appalled that any people in any community would interfere with the worship by any religious denomination.
我感到震惊的是，任何社区的任何人都会干扰任何宗教教派的崇拜。
And like you, I reject any of that antagonism or racism or bias or call it what you will.
和你一样，我拒绝任何对抗、种族主义或偏见，或者你怎么称呼它。
But the damage been done.
但损害已经造成。
The amazing, and perhaps frightening, thing about it is, Epton almost won.
令人惊奇，或许也令人恐惧的是，爱普顿几乎赢了。
He lost the election by a mere 3% of the vote.
他仅以 3% 的选票落败。
It was frightening not because Epton might not have been a good mayor, but rather because it was clear that the only reason he might have won-- a relatively unknown Republican in an overwhelmingly Democratic city-- was because he was white.
令人恐惧的不是因为埃普顿可能不是一个好市长，而是因为很明显，他可能获胜的唯一原因——在一个民主党占压倒性优势的城市中，一个相对不知名的共和党人——是因为他是白人。
And this is the moment, right after he lost, where Bernie Epton could have saved his reputation.
就在他输掉比赛之后的这一刻，伯尼·埃普顿本可以挽救他的声誉。
He could have made a brave, difficult speech to try to heal a divided and bitter city-- a speech where he reminded everyone why they liked him in the first place, which is precisely what John McCain did in November.
他本可以发表一场勇敢而艰难的演讲，试图治愈这座分裂而痛苦的城市——他在演讲中提醒每个人为什么喜欢他，而这正是约翰·麦凯恩在 11 月份所做的。
In his concession speech, McCain was generous, dignified, humble.
麦凯恩在败选演讲中慷慨、庄严、谦虚。
He acknowledged this incredible moment in history and urged everyone to bridge their differences.
他承认这是历史上令人难以置信的时刻，并敦促每个人弥合分歧。
He stepped outside of his own personal defeat at the moment when it must've been the hardest thing to do.
在这一定是最困难的事情的那一刻，他走出了自己个人的失败。
Epton missed his moment, his moment to rise above it all, to congratulate the new mayor, to call for the city to come together, to reclaim himself.
埃普顿错过了他的时刻，他超越一切的时刻，祝贺新市长，呼吁这座城市团结起来，重新找回自我。
Early the next morning, the Wednesday after the Tuesday election--
第二天一早，周二选举后的周三——
I received a call from someone very high up in the Washington campaign saying that they're going to have a unity breakfast and that it was going to be important for the city that everybody get together as quickly as possible to show that the city, in fact, is going to be relatively united and we're not going to have any major problems.
我接到华盛顿竞选高层人士的电话，说他们将举行团结早餐，每个人尽快聚在一起对这座城市来说很重要，以表明这座城市实际上将相对团结，我们不会遇到任何重大问题。
And so he said, "I've been trying to reach Bernie." This was early in the morning, "and I haven't been able to reach him." And he said, "I assume, Don, you've got a number that you can reach him." And of course I did.
所以他说：“我一直在努力联系伯尼。”当时是凌晨，“我还没能联系到他。”他说：“我想，唐，你有一个可以联系到他的电话号码。”我当然做到了。
Bernie's wife, Audrey answered.
伯尼的妻子奥黛丽接电话。
And I said, "can I talk to Bernie?
我说：“我可以和伯尼谈谈吗？
And she said, "I don't think so, Don.
她说：“我不这么认为，唐。
We're leaving to Florida and we're just getting ready to leave."
我们要去佛罗里达州，我们正准备出发。”
I said, "Well, this is important." And she said, "I don't think so." I said, "Well, could you just tell him that I'm on the phone and I got a call from the Washington office and they have a breakfast and they would want him to attend, of course." And she said, "Bernie, it's Don.
我说：“嗯，这很重要。”她说：“我不这么认为。”我说：“好吧，你能告诉他我正在打电话，我接到了华盛顿办公室的电话，他们正在吃早餐，当然他们希望他参加。”她说：“伯尼，我是唐。
There's a unity breakfast.
有统一早餐。
You want to talk to him?" And then she came back and she said, "No, we're going to Florida.
你想和他谈谈吗？”然后她回来说：“不，我们要去佛罗里达。
And that's it.
就是这样。
I'm sorry, Don.
对不起，唐。
I'm sure you understand." And that was it.
我相信你明白。”就是这样。
And there's no question in my mind he was just so devastated by those events--
在我看来，毫无疑问他对这些事件感到非常震惊——
But devastated by the fact that he lost or devastated by how the campaign--
但他因竞选失败而感到震惊，或者因竞选活动而感到震惊——
It was the culmination-- everything coming together-- when he woke up that morning and just realized, now I'm not mayor and-- and again, this is a little psychoanalytical-- and maybe just realizing, and maybe people are going to remember me for some of the wrong reasons.
这是高潮——一切都聚集在一起——那天早上他醒来，刚刚意识到，现在我不是市长了——再说一次，这有点心理分析——也许只是意识到，也许人们会因为一些错误的原因而记住我。
He's got a legacy that he wasn't going to be proud of.
他有一个他不会引以为豪的遗产。
I think he just wanted to get away.
我认为他只是想逃离。
Wanted to disappear.
想要消失。
Don Siegel Absolutely.
唐·西格尔 绝对的。
In that time after the election, in its wake, there was one person who was both close to Bernie Epton and yet had some perspective-- someone who still is trying to make sense of what happened to Epton, not just during the campaign but afterwards.
在选举结束后的那段时间里，有一个人既与伯尼·艾普顿关系密切，又具有一定的视角——他仍在试图理解艾普顿所发生的事情，不仅是在竞选期间，而且是在竞选之后。
And that's Epton's son, Jeff, who I had met years earlier.
那是艾普顿的儿子杰夫，我几年前就认识他了。
While his dad was running for mayor in Chicago as a Republican, Jeff was running for city council in Ann Arbor, Michigan, far to the left of his dad, as a Democratic Socialist.
当他的父亲以共和党人的身份竞选芝加哥市长时，杰夫以民主社会主义者的身份竞选密歇根州安娜堡市议会的议员，远在他父亲的左边。
Their relationship had been strained for years, mainly over their political differences.
他们的关系多年来一直紧张，主要是因为政治分歧。
I interviewed Jeff for NPR's Morning Edition in 1983, a week before his dad lost the election.
1983 年，我在 NPR 早间版节目中采访了杰夫，就在他父亲大选失败的前一周。
It's a different question, but if you lived in Chicago, would you vote for your dad?
这是一个不同的问题，但如果你住在芝加哥，你会投票给你的父亲吗？
I think that there's a line I have to draw here.
我认为我必须在这里划清界限。
My father's perhaps the man that I have the deepest love and respect for of anyone I know.
我的父亲也许是我所认识的人中我最深爱和尊敬的人。
There are, like I said, those political differences.
正如我所说，存在政治分歧。
How I would resolve the contradiction between those differences and my deep affection for him, I think, has to remain my private business.
我认为，如何解决这些差异与我对他的深厚感情之间的矛盾，仍然是我的私事。
When Bernie Epton, in the thick of his losing campaign, heard what his son said, he stopped talking to him.
当伯尼·艾普顿（Bernie Epton）在竞选失败的最激烈时期听到他儿子所说的话时，他不再和他说话了。
Then, several months after the election, Jeff got a phone call from his dad pretty much out of the blue.
然后，选举几个月后，杰夫突然接到了他父亲打来的电话。
His dad said nothing about not having spoken in months and invited Jeff to a White Sox game in Chicago.
他的父亲没有提及几个月没有说话的事，并邀请杰夫观看芝加哥白袜队的比赛。
We go to Comiskey Park-- the old Comiskey-- and it's before the first pitch.
我们去了科米斯基公园——老科米斯基——那是在第一个球场之前。
The crowd's really pumped.
人群实在是太热闹了
When my dad walks into the stadium, he's an instantly recognizable guy.
当我父亲走进体育场时，他是一个一眼就能认出来的人。
He's got all this celebrity from the campaign a few months earlier.
几个月前的竞选活动让他名声大噪。
He's completely familiar looking to people.
人们对他十分熟悉。
And as we're walking to our seats, people start recognizing dad and they come up to him to shake his hand.
当我们走向座位时，人们开始认出爸爸，并走到他跟前与他握手。
And after a while, people start chanting Bernie, Bernie.
过了一会儿，人们开始高呼伯尼，伯尼。
Now, it's not the whole stadium, but it feels like a lot people.
现在虽然不是整个体育场，但感觉人很多。
And the crowd's all white.
而且人群都是白人。
There are certainly not black voters going Bernie, Bernie.
当然没有黑人选民支持伯尼，伯尼。
And it suddenly starts feeling wrong to me.
我突然开始感觉不对劲。
And I can feel the hair standing up on the back of my neck-- Bernie, Bernie, Bernie.
我能感觉到我脖子后面的汗毛都竖起来了——伯尼，伯尼，伯尼。
And I'm thinking, they don't know you.
我在想，他们不认识你。
They don't know who you were.
他们不知道你是谁。
They don't know what you stand for.
他们不知道你代表什么。
And they love you for bad reasons.
他们出于不好的原因爱你。
Those bad reasons being?
那些不好的理由是什么？
Jeff Because you represented us in the fight to save Chicago before it was too late.
杰夫因为你代表我们参加了拯救芝加哥的战斗，以免为时已晚。
But it's also, you can see the power, the transforming effect it has on my father.
但你也可以看到它对我父亲的力量和改变作用。
He is so happy and this is washing over him.
他非常高兴，这一切都笼罩着他。
He is just delighted and smiling and waving and talking to people and standing a little straighter and just energized.
他只是很高兴，微笑着，挥手，与人们交谈，站得笔直一点，充满活力。
That small moment of euphoria didn't last.
那种短暂的欣快感并没有持续多久。
Strangers at baseball games cheered Epton, but he became an outsider in his own city.
棒球比赛中的陌生人为埃普顿欢呼，但他在自己的城市却成了局外人。
He lost friends, his law firm began to collapse.
他失去了朋友，他的律师事务所开始倒闭。
He became more and more withdrawn he didn't even talk with anyone about the campaign, not his daughter Dale or his son Jeff.
他变得越来越孤僻，甚至不与任何人谈论竞选活动，包括他的女儿戴尔或儿子杰夫。
On those few occasions after the election when he gave an interview or spoke publicly, Epton blamed the media for getting him wrong.
在选举后的几次采访或公开讲话中，艾普顿都指责媒体误解了他。
He always felt abused by the process himself.
他自己总觉得这个过程受到了虐待。
He could never separate his sense of being a victim from the feeling that he had a responsibility there, as well, that he might have failed.
他永远无法将自己作为受害者的感觉与他也负有责任的感觉分开，因为他可能会失败。
And then, in 1987, there was the final blow.
然后，1987 年，最后的打击来了。
Bernie Epton had heard that Harold Washington was thinking of appointing him to a commission.
伯尼·爱普顿听说哈罗德·华盛顿正在考虑任命他为一个委员会成员。
But the day before Thanksgiving, Washington died of a heart attack.
但感恩节前一天，华盛顿因心脏病去世。
And the way Jeff sees it, his dad, who had battled depression in the past, lost what he saw as his last chance of any kind of public redemption.
在杰夫看来，他的父亲过去曾与抑郁症作斗争，现在失去了他认为是任何形式的公共救赎的最后机会。
Three weeks later, Epton went to Ann Arbor to visit Jeff.
三周后，艾普顿前往安娜堡看望杰夫。
I went out with him the night before he died.
他去世前一天晚上我和他一起出去。
And it was clear he didn't want to live anymore.
很明显他不想再活了。
We had been intending to go out to dinner and go to a movie.
我们本来打算出去吃晚饭，然后去看电影。
We ended up going to McDonald's and he didn't eat and then he asked to be taken home-- not home, the hotel he was staying in.
我们最后去了麦当劳，他没有吃饭，然后他要求带回家——不是回家，是他住的酒店。
He was broke.
他破产了。
His reputation was in tatters.
他的声誉一落千丈。
He was in bad shape, and he died that night.
他的情况很糟糕，当晚就去世了。
People suggested that it was probably heart failure.
人们认为这可能是心力衰竭。
I have my own thoughts about how things proceeded.
对于事情的进展我有自己的想法。
Jeff didn't want to say any more about that.
杰夫不想再多说什么了。
The very first sentence of Bernie Epton's obituary in The New York Times describes him as the man who came close to wrecking Harold Washington's 1983 effort to become the first black mayor of Chicago.
《纽约时报》刊登的伯尼·艾普顿讣告的第一句话将他描述为差点毁掉哈罗德·华盛顿 1983 年成为芝加哥第一位黑人市长的努力的人。
It would be glib to say that Epton couldn't escape that characterization.
如果说爱普顿无法摆脱这一特征，那就太油腔滑调了。
Maybe he could have.
也许他可以。
It's what Jeff hopes, that maybe, somehow, he still can.
这就是杰夫所希望的，也许，不知何故，他仍然可以。
Alex Kotlowitz it is the author of many books, including Never a City So Real, which is about Chicago.
亚历克斯·科特洛维茨（Alex Kotlowitz）是许多书籍的作者，其中包括关于芝加哥的《从未有过如此真实的城市》（Never a City So Real）。
Well, our program was produced today by Jane Feltes and me with Alex Blumberg, Sarah Koenig, Lisa Pollak, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
好吧，我们今天的节目是由 Jane Feltes 和我与 Alex Blumberg、Sarah Koenig、Lisa Pollak、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 共同制作的。
Our senior producer's Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人朱莉·斯奈德。
Production help from [?
来自 [?的生产帮助
Andi Dixon.
安迪·迪克森。
?] Seth Lind's our production manager.
？] Seth Lind 是我们的生产经理。
Music help from Jessica Hopper.
杰西卡·霍珀的音乐帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website-- www.thisamericanlife.org.
[致谢] 我们的网站——www.thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
WBEZ management oversight for our program by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia.
我们的老板 Torey Malatia 先生对我们的项目进行 WBEZ 管理监督。
I've actually got him on the line.
我实际上已经让他接电话了。
Torey, why don't you say a few words about your difficult, difficult job?
托里，你为什么不谈谈你的工作非常非常困难呢？
I never talk about work when I'm not working.
当我不工作的时候，我从不谈论工作。
I make an exception for you, though.
不过，我为你破例。
Thanks, Torey.
谢谢，托雷。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of this American life.
下周我们将带来更多有关美国生活的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。