373: The New Boss - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #373 | January 30, 2009 373: The New Boss Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 373 集 | 2009 年 1 月 30 日 373：新老板 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass When Dave got his job at the homeless shelter, it was one of the lowest level jobs they had.
序言 艾拉·格拉斯 当戴夫在无家可归者收容所找到工作时，这是他们所拥有的最低级别的工作之一。
And he didn't think of advancing up the ladder because he really liked his job.
他并没有考虑晋升，因为他真的很喜欢他的工作。
He liked talking with the residents.
他喜欢与居民交谈。
He helped make meals, did bed checks, rented movies for movie night, got urine samples for drug testing.
他帮忙做饭、检查床铺、租借电影用于电影之夜、获取尿液样本进行药物检测。
One guy had scabies and Dave would put lotion on the scabies.
一个人得了疥疮，戴夫会在疥疮上涂乳液。
He didn't even mind that.
他甚至不介意这一点。
On his weekend shift, he'd pick of all kinds of cake mixes and special ingredients that he would blend together into these crazy cakes for the 200 residents.
在周末轮班时，他会挑选各种蛋糕混合物和特殊原料，然后将它们混合在一起，为 200 名居民制作这些疯狂的蛋糕。
That was my rep.
那是我的代表。
When I would walk in, people would get excited because they knew that an incredible cake was just hours away.
当我走进去时，人们会很兴奋，因为他们知道距离一个令人难以置信的蛋糕只有几个小时了。
So you were good at the job?
那么你的工作做得很好吗？
Dave Hill Yeah.
戴夫·希尔 是的。
I mean, I thought it was fun.
我的意思是，我觉得这很有趣。
One of my favorite things to do was with the urine samples.
我最喜欢做的事情之一就是收集尿液样本。
Because you'd take like a Dixie cup.
因为你会喜欢迪克西杯。
The supervisor would ask you to go do this.
主管会要求你去做这件事。
He would say, would you, you know, go get a urine sample, and so he gave me the cup and then the container to put the urine sample in.
他会说，你知道吗，可以去取一下尿液样本吗？于是他给了我杯子，然后给了我一个用来装尿液样本的容器。
I would go do it and then this one time he hadn't come back to his desk yet so I had the urine sample and I got another Dixie cup and ran into the kitchen and filled it with apple juice.
我会去做，然后这一次他还没有回到他的办公桌前，所以我拿到了尿液样本，我又拿了另一个迪克西杯，跑进厨房，在里面装满了苹果汁。
So he said, oh, you got the urine sample?
所以他说，哦，你有尿样吗？
I said, yeah, you know, and I acted like, yeah, I did a great job.
我说，是的，你知道，我表现得好像，是的，我做得很好。
I got the urine.
我得到了尿液。
Here you go.
干得好。
You know, and I'm like, can you get me another vial because I have left over urine.
你知道，我想，你能给我再拿一瓶吗，因为我还有剩下的尿液。
I couldn't fit all the urine into the vial you gave me so I have this cup of urine still.
我无法将所有尿液装入你给我的小瓶中，所以我还保留着这杯尿液。
You could see like already the horror was setting in, like, no, that's fine.
你可以看到恐怖已经来临，就像，不，没关系。
I just need the one vial.
我只需要一瓶。
I don't need two vials of urine.
我不需要两瓶尿液。
And I said, well, I need another vial because I have this urine.
我说，好吧，我需要另一瓶，因为我有尿液。
What am I going to do with this urine?
我该怎么处理这些尿液？
And he was just like, ah, get it out of here.
他就想，啊，把它离开这里。
Throw it out.
把它扔掉。
What are you--?
你是做什么的 - ？
And I just acted really flustered and then finally, you know, drank it, because I thought, you know, there's nothing else I could possibly do with this urine.
我表现得非常慌张，最后，你知道，喝了它，因为我想，你知道，我对这些尿液没有什么别的办法。
And it was apple juice.
那是苹果汁。
Dave Hill Yeah, it was apple juice but, I mean--
戴夫·希尔 是的，那是苹果汁，但是，我的意思是——
And his reaction?
他的反应呢？
Dave Hill He was just completely horrified as were the, you know, probably 5 or 10 witnesses to this.
戴夫·希尔（Dave Hill） 他完全惊呆了，你知道，可能有 5 到 10 名目击者。
And it was really a proud moment for me.
这对我来说确实是一个值得骄傲的时刻。
I was really happy about it.
我对此感到非常高兴。
And did you then have to explain, no, no, it was apple juice?
然后你需要解释吗，不，不，那是苹果汁？
After a while.
一段时间后。
Eventually I did.
最终我做到了。
I mean, I let it-- I milked the moment for all it was worth.
我的意思是，我让它——我充分利用了这一刻的价值。
And there were some of the residents standing around watching it happen.
一些居民站在周围观看这一切的发生。
They must have loved you.
他们一定很爱你。
Dave Hill Yeah, I tried to keep things light.
戴夫·希尔 是的，我试图让事情变得轻松。
So after about a year into this job, Dave was asked if he wanted to fill in as a supervisor for an upcoming Friday night shift.
因此，在这份工作大约一年后，戴夫被问到是否想在即将到来的周五夜班中担任主管。
You know, I was excited.
你知道，我很兴奋。
I thought I was being rewarded for, you know, the great job that I had been doing all this time.
我以为我因为我一直以来所做的出色工作而得到了回报。
So I was like, oh, wow.
所以我就想，哦，哇。
Someone believes in me.
有人相信我。
I can be a supervisor.
我可以当主管。
I felt really good about it.
我对此感觉非常好。
I'd never been supervisor of anything.
我从来没有担任过任何事情的主管。
Well, today's radio show, it's This American Life, by the way.
嗯，顺便说一句，今天的广播节目是《美国生活》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Our show is from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International.
我们的节目来自芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台。
Today's show, on this week when there's a new boss in Washington D.C., is all about what happens when somebody becomes the new boss.
今天的节目，本周华盛顿特区有一位新老板，讲述的是当某人成为新老板时会发生什么。
We've got a story about a guy taking over a town where people dislike him so much, they won't even talk to him.
我们有一个关于一个人占领了一个小镇的故事，那里的人们非常不喜欢他，甚至不和他说话。
And we've got a story from our crack economics team about the dead British guy who's about to take over the US economy.
我们的优秀经济团队讲述了一个关于死去的英国人即将接管美国经济的故事。
But in Dave's case at this homeless shelter, becoming a boss really meant something to him, because he was pretty young still, and growing up, he'd never been seen as very responsible.
但就戴夫在这个无家可归者收容所的情况而言，成为老板对他来说确实意义重大，因为他还很年轻，而且在成长过程中，他从未被视为非常负责任的人。
And so I showed up for my shift which was an 11 to 7-- 11 at night to 7 in the morning shift.
于是我就去上班了，从晚上 11 点到 7 点——晚上 11 点到早间 7 点。
I showed up a little early just to gear up, you know.
你知道，我提早出现只是为了做好准备。
And what does it mean?
这意味着什么？
Like suddenly you're the boss.
就像突然间你就是老板一样。
Like, what do you do as the new boss?
比如，你作为新老板做什么？
You have keys to everything, which I was excited about.
你拥有一切的钥匙，这让我很兴奋。
It was like a big chain of keys, like, you know, like if you were a superintendent of an apartment.
它就像一串大钥匙，就像，你知道，就像你是一个公寓的管理员一样。
I was looking forward to that.
我很期待这一点。
And you tell people when to do bed checks.
你告诉人们何时进行床位检查。
Everything was going smoothly.
一切都很顺利。
I was walking around with my keys.
我带着钥匙四处走动。
It was sort of a nice feeling.
这是一种很好的感觉。
I sort of threw my shoulders back a little bit, you know.
你知道，我的肩膀稍微向后倾斜了一点。
You know, I don't think I was getting power mad.
你知道，我不认为我对权力感到疯狂。
I tried to be, you know, as benevolent of a supervisor as I could.
你知道，我尽力成为一名仁慈的主管。
But, you know, everything I'm saying, I'm talking about like 45 minutes into it.
但是，你知道，我所说的一切都是在 45 分钟后才说的。
Everything I've just said is really just the first 45 minutes on the job-- all of these things that went through my mind and all these things that happened and didn't happen.
我刚才所说的一切实际上只是工作的前 45 分钟——我脑海中闪过的所有这些事情以及所有发生和未发生的事情。
[LAUGHS] So it's about one in the morning on my inaugural supervisor shift.
[笑] 所以大约是凌晨一点，这是我第一次主管轮班。
And the weekend cook comes in, and I had worked with him many times before and, you know, was very friendly with him.
周末厨师进来了，我以前曾与他合作过很多次，而且你知道，我对他非常友好。
And so he came in.
于是他进来了。
And he said, hey, Dave, can I borrow the keys?
他说，嘿，戴夫，我可以借一下钥匙吗？
He's like, I just want to get some meat out of the freezer.
他说，我只是想从冰箱里拿出一些肉。
And it didn't seem strange to me, because this is a guy who prepares several meals for a couple hundred people a day, you know.
这对我来说并不奇怪，因为这是一个每天为几百人准备几顿饭的人，你知道。
Oh, you thought he just needed to defrost some meat for the next day.
哦，你以为他只需要解冻一些肉以供第二天使用。
Yeah, it didn't seem weird.
是的，这看起来并不奇怪。
I thought, oh, he's just getting a jump on things, you know.
我想，哦，他只是在做事，你知道。
So I said, sure, here's the keys.
所以我说，当然，这是钥匙。
He disappeared for 10 or 15 minutes and then came back and said, thanks, Dave, here you go.
他消失了 10 或 15 分钟，然后回来说，谢谢，戴夫，给你。
And he gave me the keys back.
然后他把钥匙还给了我。
And I went home and I thought great, like, you know, my first supervisor shift went pretty well.
我回到家，我觉得很好，就像，你知道，我的第一个主管轮班进行得很顺利。
And I walked in the next day and the security guard was sitting there.
第二天我走进去，保安就坐在那里。
I said, hey, Al, how's it going?
我说，嘿，艾尔，怎么样？
And he said, good.
他说，很好。
Hey, did you hear what happened, you know, with the cook last night?
嘿，你知道昨晚和厨师发生了什么事吗？
I'm like, what are you talking about?
我说，你在说什么？
And he said, oh, he stole 300 pounds of beef last night.
他说，哦，他昨晚偷了300磅牛肉。
And, you know, I pretended not to have any idea how that might happen.
而且，你知道，我假装不知道这会如何发生。
I was like, what?
我当时想，什么？
You're kidding.
你开玩笑吧。
What are you talking about?
你在说什么？
And he's like, yeah, apparently he got keys to the freezer and went down there and took out 300 pounds of meat.
他说，是的，显然他拿到了冰箱的钥匙，然后走到那里取出了 300 磅的肉。
He took it all out and threw it over the fence to his buddy.
他把东西全部拿出来，越过栅栏扔给他的伙伴。
And I was going like, what?
我当时想，什么？
Why would anyone have a need for 300 pounds of meat at 1 AM on a Friday?
为什么有人会在周五凌晨 1 点需要 300 磅肉？
And he's like, well, to sell it.
他想，好吧，卖掉它。
I'm like, why would anyone-- what do you mean, sell it?
我想，为什么会有人——你是什么意思，卖掉它？
He's like, sell it on the street for crack.
他就像，在街上卖掉它。
None of this was making any sense to me and he's like, he's a crack head.
这一切对我来说毫无意义，他就像个疯子。
And I'm like, what?
我想，什么？
What are you talking about?
你在说什么？
He's like, well, yeah, he's a crack addict.
他就像，嗯，是的，他是个瘾君子。
He was like a recovering crack-- well, now he's, I guess, full on back to being a crack head, but he was working there as a recovering crack addict.
他就像一个正在康复的瘾君子——好吧，我想，现在他已经完全恢复了瘾君子的状态，但他在那里工作，就像一个正在康复的瘾君子一样。
And then he starts going down the line and he's like, well, yeah, this guy's a crack addict, this guy's a crack addict.
然后他开始往下说，他说，嗯，是的，这家伙是个瘾君子，这家伙是个瘾君子。
Like program aids, supervisors, security guards.
比如节目助手、主管、保安。
People who have your job.
那些有你工作的人。
Dave Hill Yeah.
戴夫·希尔 是的。
And he was just going down the line.
他正要下线。
He's like, yeah, he's a crack addict.
他就像，是的，他是一个瘾君子。
And then he starts explaining.
然后他开始解释。
He's like, don't you remember when he didn't show up for work that one day.
他说，你不记得那天他没有来上班吗？
Yeah, they found her, you know, turning tricks down the block for crack.
是的，他们找到了她，你知道，她正在把戏法变成破解的手段。
And, you know, there was another guy I noticed just didn't work there anymore and they're like, yeah, they found him in the basement smoking crack on his shift.
而且，你知道，我注意到另一个人不再在那里工作了，他们就像，是的，他们发现他在地下室轮班时抽大麻。
And he's just going down the line, naming all these people, and breaking it down for me on my coworkers.
他只是继续下去，点出所有这些人的名字，并为我详细介绍我的同事。
And finally he's like, I'm a crack head.
最后他说，我是个疯子。
I mean, he's not currently, but he's like-- And it was just like what?
我的意思是，他现在不是，但他就像——那就像什么？
I felt foolish and I felt kind of betrayed and then sort of wondering what was going to happen.
我感觉很愚蠢，感觉有点被背叛，然后有点想知道会发生什么。
Like, am I in turn going to have to score 300 pounds of meat to make things right?
比如，我是否需要获得 300 磅肉才能让事情恢复正常？
You know?
你知道？
I just sold the movie rights to this story when I made that twist, actually.
事实上，当我做出这个转变时，我刚刚卖掉了这个故事的电影版权。
And now he must score 300 pounds of meat, using any means he can.
现在他必须想尽一切办法获得300磅肉。
Boom.
繁荣。
If only you could find some, like, retired thief who's just willing to do one last score with you.
如果你能找到一些，比如退休的小偷，愿意和你一起做最后一件事就好了。
I told you, Dave, I'm out of the game.
我告诉过你了，戴夫，我已经出局了。
What'd you say?
你说什么？
Actually it sounds like it might be kind of fun.
事实上，听起来可能很有趣。
Tell you what, I got the itch.
告诉你吧，我很痒。
I've been looking to get a taste of that frozen meat action for a while now.
一段时间以来，我一直想尝尝冷冻肉的味道。
Glad you called.
很高兴你打电话来。
And so how long did you last as the new supervisor?
那么您担任新主管多久了？
That was it.
就是这样。
I was never asked to be supervisor again.
我再也没有被邀请担任主管。
Did you feel bad, like oh, you let people down?
你是否感觉很糟糕，比如哦，你让人们失望了？
Yeah, yeah, totally.
是的，是的，完全如此。
I felt really bad about it, because 300 pounds of meat, that's a lot of-- any way you slice it, that's a lot of meat to lose.
我对此感到非常难过，因为 300 磅的肉，太多了——无论你怎么切，都会损失很多肉。
So I felt bad about that because it's a homeless shelter.
所以我对此感到难过，因为这是一个无家可归者收容所。
I definitely cost them money.
我确实花了他们钱。
I was embarrassed about it and knowing that people knew, I thought that people must look at me differently there.
我对此感到很尴尬，并且知道人们都知道，我想人们一定会以不同的方式看待我。
Or maybe they looked to me exactly as they always had, which was maybe worse.
或者也许他们对我的看法与以往一模一样，这可能更糟。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Ira Glass Dave Hill.
艾拉·格拉斯 戴夫·希尔
These days he is the star of a late night TV talk show that doesn't actually air on television but on stage at the UCB Theatre in New York City.
如今，他是深夜电视脱口秀节目的明星，该节目实际上并不在电视上播出，而是在纽约市 UCB 剧院的舞台上播出。
It is called the Dave Hill Explosion.
它被称为戴夫希尔爆炸。
His website, davehillonline.com.
他的网站，davehillonline.com。
Act Two, A Trust Without Trust.
第二幕，没有信任的信任。
You may have heard of Warren Jeffs.
您可能听说过沃伦·杰夫斯。
Back in 2006 he was all over the news, a religious leader running from the law.
早在 2006 年，他就成了新闻焦点，他是一位逃避法律的宗教领袖。
"Prophet on the lamb," one Arizona newspaper called him.
亚利桑那州的一份报纸称他为“羔羊先知”。
Jeffs was the head of a fringe group of Mormons called the FLDS, Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
杰夫斯是摩门教边缘团体 FLDS（耶稣基督后期圣徒原教旨主义教会）的领袖。
Unlike regular Mormons, FLDS members practice polygamy, which has been technically illegal since 1878, but it's a crime that's rarely prosecuted.
与普通摩门教徒不同的是，FLDS 成员奉行一夫多妻制，从 1878 年起严格来说，这一直是非法的，但这种犯罪很少受到起诉。
For a century, the group lived in relative anonymity out in the Utah desert but then Jeffs came to power and everything went haywire.
一个世纪以来，这个组织在犹他州沙漠中相对默默无闻地生活着，但杰夫斯上台后，一切都变得一团糟。
Jeffs is accused of excommunicating members at whim, sexually abusing young children, and marrying off young girls to older men.
杰夫斯被指控随意将成员逐出教会、性虐待幼儿以及将年轻女孩嫁给年长的男人。
He has followers in enclaves all over North America, including that polygamist compound in Texas that was all over the news this spring.
他在北美各地都有追随者，其中包括今年春天新闻中频频出现的德克萨斯州一夫多妻制大院。
Jeffs was caught after a year on the run, put on trial as an accomplice to rape, and sentenced to 10 years to life in prison.
杰夫斯在逃亡一年后被捕，以强奸同谋罪受审，并被判处 10 年至无期徒刑。
When he was arrested in 2005, he's said to have had over 100 wives.
2005年他被捕时，据说他有100多个妻子。
But after Jeffs was locked up, a much thornier issue presented itself, what to do with all the property owned by the church that he led, the FLDS.
但杰夫斯被关押后，一个更棘手的问题出现了，如何处理他所领导的教会（FLDS）拥有的所有财产。
It is not a small matter.
这不是一件小事。
For over 70 years, FLDS members had given huge chunks of their income and all their houses, businesses, farms, animals-- all their assets-- to this church trust, which is called the United Effort Plan, the UEP.
70 多年来，FLDS 成员将其大部分收入以及所有房屋、企业、农场、动物——所有资产——捐给了这个教会信托基金，该信托基金被称为“联合努力计划”(UEP)。
Total value of the UEP?
UEP 的总价值？
Over $112 million.
超过 1.12 亿美元。
And Warren Jeffs was the person who managed that money.
沃伦·杰夫斯是这笔钱的管理人。
But when Jeffs became a fugitive, he started to liquidate land in the trust, putting it up for sale at a fraction of its real cost to fund the things that he was doing, and the Utah Attorney General stepped in.
但当杰夫斯成为逃亡者时，他开始清算信托中的土地，以实际成本的一小部分出售，为他正在做的事情提供资金，犹他州总检察长介入。
The state decided to put the UEP in the hands of a regular old accountant, somebody who had nothing to do with the FLDS, somebody legally qualified to manage the trust in the way that most trusts are managed, in the best interests of the members who paid into it in the first place.
州政府决定将 UEP 交给一位普通的老会计师，他与 FLDS 没有任何关系，有合法资格以大多数信托的管理方式管理信托，这符合最初付款的成员的最大利益。
And that is how Bruce Wisan got the job.
布鲁斯·威桑就是这样得到这份工作的。
He was the trust's new boss, suddenly managing the money of a community full of people who did not want him managing their money.
他是信托公司的新老板，突然管理着一个社区的资金，而这些人不希望他管理他们的资金。
Claire Hoffman tells what happened.
克莱尔·霍夫曼讲述了发生的事情。
Bruce didn't quite know what he was getting into when he took this job in 2005, but he was used to people not liking him.
2005 年接手这份工作时，布鲁斯不太清楚自己将面临什么，但他已经习惯了人们不喜欢他。
Bruce runs a large accounting firm in Salt Lake City but he has a side career in rescuing distressed assets.
布鲁斯在盐湖城经营着一家大型会计师事务所，但他的副业是拯救不良资产。
It's like being a repo man on a bigger scale.
这就像成为更大规模的回购人。
The state of Utah has hired him to manage all kinds of businesses on the verge of bankruptcy.
犹他州聘请他来管理各种濒临破产的企业。
He ran a motel, a bowling alley, a warehouse, a Subway sandwich shop.
他经营一家汽车旅馆、一家保龄球馆、一家仓库、一家赛百味三明治店。
At one point, he took over a bankrupt bar and ran that, even though he doesn't drink.
有一次，他接管了一家破产的酒吧并经营它，尽管他不喝酒。
But the UEP was going to be a lot harder.
但 UEP 的难度会大很多。
The Attorney General's office said, we really don't have any blueprint for you.
总检察长办公室说，我们真的没有给你任何蓝图。
This is uncharted territory.
这是未知的领域。
You're going in to manage the real estate of thousands of people that are going to look at this as a government takeover, that it's going to be hostile.
你要管理成千上万人的房地产，他们会将此视为政府接管，这将是敌对的。
And they're not going to like you.
他们不会喜欢你。
We don't know what kind of reaction they're going to give you.
我们不知道他们会给你什么样的反应。
I mean, there are just a lot of unknowns and uncertainties.
我的意思是，存在很多未知因素和不确定因素。
Unknowns and uncertainties is an understatement.
未知和不确定性是轻描淡写的。
The community of Short Creek had fallen apart.
肖特克里克社区已经分崩离析。
For years, Warren Jeffs had predicted the end of the world every six months and so people had stopped construction on their homes and stopped fixing things when they broke.
多年来，沃伦·杰夫斯每六个月就会预测一次世界末日，因此人们停止了房屋的建设，并在房屋损坏时停止修理。
Businesses moved out of town.
企业搬出城镇。
In addition, there was a rising tide of litigation against Warren Jeffs and the church by underage brides and other former FLDS members.
此外，未成年新娘和其他前 FLDS 成员对沃伦·杰夫斯和教会的诉讼浪潮不断增加。
If they won their lawsuits, they could be awarded millions of dollars in damages and that money could come out of the UEP trust.
如果他们赢得诉讼，他们可能会获得数百万美元的损害赔偿，这笔钱可能来自 UEP 信托基金。
People's homes in Short Creek would have to be sold off to pay for that.
肖特克里克居民的房屋必须被卖掉才能支付这笔费用。
So it was Bruce's job to fight to protect the assets of the trust from these kinds of judgments.
因此，布鲁斯的工作就是努力保护信托资产免受此类判断的影响。
He had to convince the courts that even if what Jeffs had done was wrong, awards shouldn't be paid out of the trust.
他必须说服法庭，即使杰夫斯的做法是错误的，也不应该从信托中支付赔偿金。
And if all that weren't daunting enough, Bruce had to get past the first hurdle.
如果这一切还不够令人畏惧的话，布鲁斯还必须克服第一个障碍。
Their leader, Warren Jeffs, told the people to literally ignore me, that I didn't exist.
他们的领袖沃伦·杰夫斯告诉人们不要理睬我，我不存在。
If I knock on their doors, they're not going to open the doors.
如果我敲他们的门，他们不会开门。
We'd put letters in every post office box in town and the post office would often say that the floor would be littered with my correspondence because they were told not to even read anything that I said.
我们把信件投进镇上的每个邮政信箱，邮局经常说地板上堆满了我的信件，因为他们被告知不要读我所说的任何内容。
So I didn't have a lot of opportunity to meet the average member.
所以我没有太多机会去认识普通会员。
On Bruce's early trips to Short Creek, women would grab their children and rush inside to avoid him.
在布鲁斯早期去肖特克里克的旅行中，妇女们会抱着孩子冲进去躲避他。
They wouldn't serve him in the ice cream shop.
他们不会在冰淇淋店为他服务。
He would often be tailed by law enforcement.
他经常被执法部门跟踪。
The local police were still tools of the FLDS.
当地警察仍然是 FLDS 的工具。
Being a mainstream Mormon himself, Bruce had always heard about the fundamentalist polygamists living out in the desert.
布鲁斯本人是主流摩门教徒，他一直听说过生活在沙漠中的原教旨主义一夫多妻主义者。
And like most mainstream Mormons, he didn't think too highly of them.
和大多数主流摩门教徒一样，他对他们评价不高。
But now he wanted to help, especially when it came to people's homes.
但现在他想提供帮助，特别是当涉及到人们的家时。
No one in Short Creek had a deed to their own home.
肖特克里克没有人拥有自己的房屋契约。
Their houses were communal property owned by the church.
他们的房屋是教会的公共财产。
In fact, this was the biggest part of the UEP trust, people's homes.
事实上，这是 UEP 信托基金中最大的一部分，即人们的家园。
But without deeds to their own homes, everyone lived at the whim of church leaders who could decide in a day whether you were entitled to live in your own house or not.
但是，如果没有自己的房屋契约，每个人都按照教会领袖的一时兴起而生活，他们可以在一天之内决定你是否有权住在自己的房子里。
When Warren Jeffs came into power, there were a lot of families that were disrupted.
当沃伦·杰夫斯上台时，很多家庭都被打乱了。
He moved a lot of people from house to house.
他把很多人从一家搬到另一家。
He expelled a lot of men, reassigned their wives and children to other men.
他驱逐了很多男人，将他们的妻子和孩子重新分配给其他男人。
I spoke with a young girl that left the community.
我与一位离开社区的年轻女孩交谈过。
She was on one of those moving crews and she said that they could go into a house at night-- usually 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning-- and they would move the whole house in less than an hour.
她是搬家队伍中的一员，她说他们可以在晚上进入一所房子——通常是凌晨两三点——他们会在不到一个小时的时间内把整个房子搬走。
And they would go in and Saran wrap the dressers and desks and whatever.
他们会进去，用莎兰包裹梳妆台和桌子之类的东西。
Things weren't packed in boxes.
东西没有装在盒子里。
Even the next door neighbors wouldn't know until the next morning that somebody new was living in the house.
就连隔壁的邻居也要到第二天早上才知道房子里住了新人。
Many of the people Warren Jeffs excommunicated from the church still live in the area.
许多被沃伦·杰夫斯逐出教会的人仍然居住在该地区。
They were the first ones to open their doors to Bruce, offering help and advice.
他们是第一批向布鲁斯敞开大门、提供帮助和建议的人。
Bruce has hired several of them to help him, like Jethro Barlow.
布鲁斯雇佣了其中的几位来帮助他，比如杰思罗·巴洛。
A trained accountant, Jethro has lived here his whole life and was a member of the FLDS for most of it until a few years ago, when he was excommunicated.
Jethro 是一名训练有素的会计师，一生都住在这里，大部分时间都是 FLDS 的成员，直到几年前他被逐出教会。
Then his house was taken from him and the church ordered both his wives to leave him.
然后他的房子被没收，教会命令他的两个妻子离开他。
I'm in a situation right now where I have children that I haven't seen or spoken to in years.
我现在的处境是，我有很多年没见过或没说过话的孩子了。
One of them lives right across the street, kitty corner from me, and I haven't spoken to him since I moved back to the community.
其中一个就住在街对面，离我很近，自从我搬回社区后，我就没有和他说过话。
My mother is in one of these big walled compounds over here.
我母亲就住在这里的一处有围墙的大院里。
I can't visit her.
我不能去看望她。
Jethro says he was one of the first of the 200 men to be expelled from the FLDS under Warren Jeffs.
杰思罗说，他是沃伦·杰夫斯 (Warren Jeffs) 领导下首批被逐出 FLDS 的 200 名男子之一。
He doesn't know why.
他不知道为什么。
At that point, Warren Jeffs was kicking men out because of the tiniest of infractions.
那时，沃伦·杰夫斯（Warren Jeffs）会因为最微小的违规行为而将员工踢出局。
By the end, if Jeffs had a bad dream and the dream showed you not to be righteous, that was enough to get you evicted.
到最后，如果杰夫斯做了一个噩梦，并且梦表明你不正义，那就足以让你被驱逐。
And so without warning or explanation, Jethro was expected to leave his community and the life he knew.
因此，在没有任何警告或解释的情况下，杰思罗就应该离开他的社区和他所熟悉的生活。
Like a Taliban coming into Afghanistan, there was just every week another fatwa that was issued about color of hair, what you could eat, what color you could wear, meetings that had to be attended to, et cetera, et cetera.
就像塔利班进入阿富汗一样，每周都会发布另一个关于头发颜色、你可以吃什么、你可以穿什么颜色、必须参加的会议等等的追杀令。
Then the church became more and more intrusive into people's lives.
此后，教会越来越侵入人们的生活。
And as those few people who dissented or resisted or had a different opinion-- in fact, the entire older generation.
而那些少数持不同意见、抵制或有不同意见的人——事实上，是整个老一代人。
Over 200 heads of families have been dispatched from the community and sent away.
社区已派出200多名户主并送走。
One time I was down in the community.
有一次我在社区里。
We were in Jethro's truck.
我们在杰思罗的卡车里。
Again, Bruce Wisan.
又是布鲁斯·维桑。
Bruce Wisan Just driving slowly in a pickup truck.
布鲁斯·威桑 (Bruce Wisan) 开着一辆皮卡车缓慢行驶。
And a young mother with two small children were walking on a sidewalk and she smiled and gave a casual wave to us as we drove by.
一位年轻的母亲带着两个小孩走在人行道上，当我们开车经过时，她微笑着向我们随意挥手。
We were only driving like 10 or 15 miles an hour.
我们的行驶速度只有每小时 10 或 15 英里。
And she didn't really look at us.
她并没有真正看着我们。
She didn't know who we were.
她不知道我们是谁。
And I commented to Jethro.
我向杰思罗发表了评论。
I said, oh, isn't that nice?
我说，哦，这不是很好吗？
And he stopped the truck and put his hands over the steering wheel and put his head down.
他停下了卡车，双手放在方向盘上，低下了头。
And he said, that was one of my daughters and those were two of my grandchildren that I've never met.
他说，那是我的一个女儿，那是我从未见过的两个孙子。
And I said, Jethro, go back.
我说，杰思罗，回去吧。
Why don't you go back and talk to her and see them then?
你为什么不回去和她谈谈然后见他们呢？
And he said, oh, I would give anything to do that, but it would cause so many problems that I don't think I should.
他说，哦，我愿意付出一切来做到这一点，但这会引起很多问题，我认为我不应该这样做。
And it wasn't that it would cause problems for him.
这并不是说这会给他带来麻烦。
It would cause problems for her if she were to be seen speaking with an apostate, even though it's her father and even though those grandkids had never seen or visited with their grandfather.
如果有人看到她与叛教者交谈，就会给她带来麻烦，即使那是她的父亲，即使那些孙子们从未见过或拜访过他们的祖父。
And those are tragic, tragic situations.
这些都是悲惨、悲惨的情况。
Fixing these tragic situations would seem to be beyond the power of an accountant, but incredibly, Bruce Wisan thinks it isn't.
解决这些悲剧性的情况似乎超出了会计师的能力范围，但令人难以置信的是，布鲁斯·维桑认为事实并非如此。
And so early on, he decided the best thing he could do for Jethro and everyone else here was to give them their homes.
很早就，他决定为杰思罗和这里的其他人做的最好的事情就是给他们一个家。
The houses would no longer be owned by the trust.
这些房屋将不再归信托所有。
Bruce and the Utah court saw this as simple justice.
布鲁斯和犹他州法院认为这是简单的正义。
For decades, people like Jethro paid a hefty chunk of their income to the trust.
几十年来，像杰思罗这样的人将大部分收入支付给了信托基金。
Now they get the titles to their houses in return.
现在，作为回报，他们获得了房屋的所有权。
The 15% of the community Bruce estimates are excommunicated would finally have real independence from the church, which they've wanted.
布鲁斯估计，被逐出教会的社区中 15% 的人最终将真正独立于教会，这也是他们所希望的。
But for everyone else, the families who are still in the FLDS, it would have a side effect the courts and Bruce don't like to talk about much or advertise.
但对于其他人，即仍在 FLDS 的家庭，这会对法院产生副作用，而且 Bruce 不喜欢谈论太多或做广告。
A side effect that FLDS families find frightening and threatening to their way of life.
FLDS 家庭发现这种副作用令人恐惧并威胁到他们的生活方式。
It would give the church less control over them.
这将使教会对他们的控制减少。
So in a way, owning a home is a way for them to disentangle themselves from the tentacles of Warren Jeffs.
所以在某种程度上，拥有一套房子是他们摆脱沃伦·杰夫斯魔爪的一种方式。
Yes, it is a way if somebody wants to, as you say, untangle themselves from Warren Jeffs and some of the strange doctrine that he's preached.
是的，正如你所说，如果有人想要摆脱沃伦·杰夫斯和他所宣扬的一些奇怪的教义，这是一种方法。
Yeah, this would be the time to do it and this would be the way to do it.
是的，现在正是这样做的时候，也是这样做的方式。
So this is really the main part of town.
所以这确实是城镇的主要部分。
The police station and city hall for Colorado City is right there.
科罗拉多市的警察局和市政厅就在那里。
Bruce takes me down to Short Creek for a tour.
布鲁斯带我去肖特溪游览。
Short Creek is made up of the twin cities of Colorado City, Arizona, and Hildale, Utah.
肖特克里克由亚利桑那州科罗拉多城和犹他州希尔代尔这对双城组成。
Driving around, the lack of color, signs, advertising is shocking.
开车四处走走，缺乏色彩、标志、广告令人震惊。
Everything is gray and white and brown.
一切都是灰色、白色和棕色的。
It doesn't look like America, or at least not America in this century.
它看起来不像美国，或者至少不像本世纪的美国。
Part of that is because Warren Jeffs got really into banishing things, all sorts of things, like the color red.
部分原因是沃伦·杰夫斯真的热衷于消除各种事物，比如红色。
He outlawed stripes and dogs, killing off hundreds, movies, books, TV.
他宣布条纹和狗为非法，导致数百部电影、书籍和电视被消灭。
He dismantled the library.
他拆除了图书馆。
We pass a four-wheel motorcycle with five teenage girls piled on, in ornate old fashioned hairdos and prairie dresses driving down the road.
我们经过一辆四轮摩托车，上面堆着五个十几岁的女孩，她们留着华丽的老式发型，穿着草原服饰，在路上行驶。
It's hard not to stare but then again, in this area, our car is a spectacle.
很难不盯着看，但话又说回来，在这个区域，我们的车是一个奇观。
And they know we're outsiders because I have short sleeves and your hair isn't done up in the normal way.
他们知道我们是外人，因为我穿的是短袖，而你的头发也没有按正常方式扎起来。
This is an odd place.
这是一个奇怪的地方。
The homes are massive.
房屋很大。
They have to be to house all those wives and those dozens of children.
它们必须容纳所有这些妻子和几十个孩子。
Warren Jeffs's compound takes up a city block and it was there that allegedly he lived with over 100 of his wives.
沃伦·杰夫斯 (Warren Jeffs) 的住所占据了一个街区，据称他与 100 多名妻子住在那里。
But many of their homes around town are unfinished, missing roofs, walls, windows.
但他们在镇上的许多房屋都未完工，屋顶、墙壁和窗户都缺失了。
This is the construction that never got completed because of all those predictions of the apocalypse.
由于所有这些关于世界末日的预测，这个建筑从未完成。
Most of the streets were dirt.
大部分街道都是泥土。
When Bruce took over, the trust owed almost $2 million in back property taxes, which he started paying off.
布鲁斯接任后，信托公司欠下近 200 万美元的财产税，他开始偿还这些税款。
Then he pushed the city government to make long needed repairs to community property, like paving the roads, getting fire hydrants installed, improving the water and sewer system, renovating the town park.
然后，他敦促市政府对社区财产进行急需的修复，比如铺路、安装消防栓、改善供水和下水道系统、翻新城镇公园。
Even here there was resistance, because his overall agenda was clear to everyone.
即使在这里也存在阻力，因为他的总体议程每个人都清楚。
He wanted to make the town government, the police, the utilities all function the way they function in other towns, as secular neutral institutions no longer under church control.
他想让镇政府、警察、公用事业都像其他城镇一样运作，成为不再受教会控制的世俗中立机构。
They battled me, the cities especially-- the city councils, the city water people, city engineers, all of those people covertly opposed what I'm doing.
他们与我作斗争，尤其是城市——市议会、城市水务人员、城市工程师，所有这些人都暗中反对我正在做的事情。
They don't argue with me.
他们不与我争论。
They don't debate with me.
他们不与我辩论。
They just tell me they're going to do something and then don't do it, or tell me that I can't do something because of some new requirement that they've just thought up.
他们只是告诉我他们要做某事，然后就不做，或者告诉我因为他们刚刚想出的一些新要求而我不能做某事。
He has destroyed and attempted to destroy every good thing in the community.
他已经摧毁并试图摧毁社会上的一切美好事物。
That's Willie Jessop.
那是威利·杰索普。
With Warren Jeffs in prison, it's not exactly clear who's running the FLDS now, but Willie Jessop has emerged and taken the spotlight as spokesman and point person for the FLDS, standing up against the outsiders, the feds, and the state.
随着沃伦·杰夫斯 (Warren Jeffs) 入狱，目前尚不清楚谁在管理 FLDS，但威利·杰索普 (Willie Jessop) 已经出现，并作为 FLDS 的发言人和关键人物而受到关注，勇敢地面对局外人、联邦政府和国家。
And no one seems to disgust Jessop more than Bruce.
似乎没有人比布鲁斯更令杰索普厌恶。
There is not words in the English language that I have found that can describe what Bruce Wisan has done to this community.
我发现英语中没有任何词语可以描述布鲁斯·维桑对这个社区所做的一切。
There isn't words to describe the harm that he has done to people.
无法用言语来描述他对人们造成的伤害。
He launched a full set attack, with this judge's help, on our police department, on our city governments, our water companies, our municipalities.
在这位法官的帮助下，他对我们的警察部门、我们的市政府、我们的自来水公司、我们的市政当局发起了全面的攻击。
He'll have to be accountable to someone a lot greater than us for what he's done.
他必须为他所做的事情向比我们伟大得多的人负责。
To Jessop, Bruce is a bad man who's out to destroy the polygamists' faith.
对杰索普来说，布鲁斯是一个坏人，他的目的是摧毁一夫多妻制的信仰。
He tells me that Bruce first came into the community proclaiming himself the state appointed bishop.
他告诉我，布鲁斯第一次进入社区时宣称自己是州任命的主教。
Since then, Jessop says, Bruce has tried to take apart every bit of structure their community has and to profit mightily along the way.
杰索普说，从那时起，布鲁斯就试图拆散他们社区的每一点结构，并在此过程中获得巨大的利润。
I think he made his stand very quick by the people he employed and he only reached out publicly.
我认为他很快就通过他雇用的人员表明了自己的立场，而且他只是公开接触。
He'd show up to the city hall meeting and tell everybody how he only wanted to reach out to the community, but then he would only seek the interest of those that were hateful, known hateful against us.
他会出现在市政厅会议上，告诉每个人他只想接触社区，但随后他只会寻求那些对我们充满仇恨的人的兴趣。
What I was going to say when you started the town hall meetings, his point is, I had town hall meetings.
当你开始召开市政厅会议时我要说的是，他的观点是，我召开了市政厅会议。
Nobody showed up and the only people who showed up were the people who were kicked out.
没有人出现，唯一出现的人就是那些被赶出去的人。
So those are the people who engaged with me.
这些就是与我交往的人。
And that would be his explanation.
这就是他的解释。
Well, how could anybody say-- well, if nobody shows up and you're supposed to be helping them, something must not be right.
好吧，怎么会有人说——好吧，如果没有人出现而你应该帮助他们，那么一定是出了什么问题。
But rather than fix it, he just kept doing it.
但他并没有解决这个问题，而是继续这样做。
And then the more he can say how uncooperative it is, he can justify larger lawyer bills to pay himself and bigger accounting fees to pay himself.
然后他越能说这是多么不合作，他就可以证明自己需要支付更多的律师费和支付自己的会计费用。
There's a huge conflict of interest.
存在巨大的利益冲突。
Does he really want to solve the problems when he gets every penny of the problem that he generates?
当他得到自己产生的问题的每一分钱时，他真的想解决问题吗？
Come on.
快点。
Bruce's fees are a source of real bitterness here.
布鲁斯的收费是这里真正痛苦的根源。
They've totaled more than $600,000.
他们的总金额已超过 60 万美元。
In addition, to protect the trust's assets from being seized in lawsuits against Warren Jeffs, Bruce has spent over $1 million on lawyers.
此外，为了保护信托资产不因沃伦·杰夫斯的诉讼而被扣押，布鲁斯还花费了超过 100 万美元请律师。
To pay for all that, he's selling off trust property, including an office building and some plots of land.
为了支付这一切，他出售了信托财产，包括一栋办公楼和一些土地。
He's also asked every Short Creek resident to pay $100 every month to fund city improvements and the administration of the trust.
他还要求每位 Short Creek 居民每月支付 100 美元，用于资助城市改善和信托管理。
The way Jessop sees it, that's just stealing from FLDS members.
在 Jessop 看来，这只是从 FLDS 成员那里偷东西。
But of all the things that Bruce has tried to do, nothing angers Jessop more than his attempt to privatize the land and create individual home ownership.
但在布鲁斯尝试做的所有事情中，没有什么比他试图将土地私有化和建立个人住房所有权更让杰索普愤怒的了。
If I want my home to be held in the way that I believe, which is that we put our homes and we pull them together in a united order, that's how we got them.
如果我希望我的家以我所相信的方式存在，那就是我们把我们的家放在一起，并以统一的顺序将它们组合在一起，这就是我们得到它们的方式。
That's how we built them.
我们就是这样建造它们的。
That's how we consecrated them.
我们就是这样祝圣它们的。
And if somebody comes and says, I'm going to break your church up and give you your home and I don't want him to, what is he doing it for?
如果有人过来说，我要拆散你的教会，把你的家还给你，但我不希望他这样做，他这样做是为了什么？
Why do you want to give me a title to something that I believe belongs to the community and to heavenly father and to us as a whole?
为什么你要给我一个我认为属于社区、天父和我们整体的东西的所有权？
Why do that?
为什么要这么做？
Why force me to do that?
为何强迫我这么做？
Psychological and sociological warfare against the FLDS.
针对 FLDS 的心理和社会战。
And he's got the state of Utah giving him the authority to do it.
犹他州授权他这样做。
This point's the impossibility of Bruce's job.
这一点是布鲁斯的工作不可能做到的。
Bruce insists that he's just an accountant looking after the assets of the trust with no other agenda, but the simple fact that he's telling the church to divide its communal property and give away houses is stepping on how people here want to practice their religion.
布鲁斯坚称，他只是一名会计师，负责管理信托基金的资产，没有其他议程，但他告诉教会分割公共财产并赠送房屋的简单事实正在践踏这里的人们想要如何实践他们的宗教。
Again, here's Willie.
威利又来了。
It's a little bit like saying, I want to go and give everybody their brick out of a church.
这有点像说，我想去教堂把砖块送给每个人。
Well, if nobody wants the brick, why would he tear down their church?
好吧，如果没人想要砖头，他为什么要拆掉他们的教堂呢？
Why would somebody force me to take it?
为什么有人要强迫我接受它？
Is there anyone in the community that said, hey, I want my property subdivided in this?
社区里有没有人说，嘿，我想把我的财产分割成这样？
Any?
任何？
Have you heard of any?
你听说过吗？
I ask him about the one group in Short Creek who definitely want their houses back from the trust, and that's the people who have been excommunicated from the church.
我问他有关肖特克里克的一群人的情况，他们肯定希望从信托机构手中收回自己的房屋，而这群人就是那些被教会逐出教会的人。
And he surprises me by denying that anybody was kicked out of the church.
令我惊讶的是，他否认有人被赶出了教堂。
Meanwhile, Bruce points out that regardless of their standing in the church, all these FLDS and former FLDS members are also American citizens, which means that when they paid into the trust, it gave them certain rights to their property, including owning their homes.
与此同时，布鲁斯指出，无论他们在教会中的地位如何，所有这些 FLDS 和前 FLDS 成员都是美国公民，这意味着当他们向信托缴款时，信托就赋予了他们对其财产的某些权利，包括拥有自己的房屋。
He wants every FLDS member to know that they have that right.
他希望每个 FLDS 成员都知道他们有这项权利。
Since most of them have been in the church since the day they were born, it will be the first chance they ever get to exercise it.
由于他们中的大多数人从出生那天起就在教堂里，这将是他们第一次有机会行使它。
I've been told even by FLDS-- an occasional FLDS person-- if titles are passed to the individuals, that maybe 30% of the FLDS will keep the title to their houses.
就连 FLDS（偶尔有 FLDS 的人）也告诉我，如果所有权转移给个人，也许 30% 的 FLDS 会保留他们房屋的所有权。
So these are people that are not quite as staunch and may want this opportunity to establish some security for themselves.
因此，这些人并不那么坚定，可能希望借此机会为自己建立一些安全感。
Mostly, Bruce is tired and ready for this case to be over, and frustrated at all the battles that haven't gone his way.
大多数情况下，布鲁斯很累，准备好让这个案子结束，并对所有没有如他所愿的战斗感到沮丧。
My only ambition is to get out of this case.
我唯一的愿望就是摆脱这个案子。
It's been three and a half years.
已经三年半了。
My attorney and I are just exhausted and it's affected my CPA practice a lot.
我和我的律师都筋疲力尽，这对我的注册会计师执业产生了很大影响。
I probably spend 50% of my time on this case and it represents 10% of my billing.
我可能花了 50% 的时间在这个案例上，它占了我账单的 10%。
I'm spending 50% of my time on 10% of my income.
我把 50% 的时间花在 10% 的收入上。
That's not a very smart thing to do.
这不是一件很聪明的事情。
And so, frankly, I would really like to see this resolved.
因此，坦率地说，我真的很希望看到这个问题得到解决。
Now where's the police station?
现在警察局在哪里？
I'm supposed to park at the police station.
我应该把车停在警察局。
It's on a Friday morning this past November that Bruce is driving to the county courthouse in Saint George, Utah.
去年十一月的一个星期五早上，布鲁斯开车前往犹他州圣乔治县法院。
We turn the corner to the street of the courthouse and are greeted by hundreds and hundreds of polygamists in pastel prairie dresses and denim work clothes crammed on the sidewalks that surround the courthouse.
我们拐过街角来到法院大楼的街道上，迎接我们的是成百上千的一夫多妻者，他们穿着柔和的草原连衣裙和牛仔工作服，挤在法院大楼周围的人行道上。
They're eerily quiet, like something out of a movie.
他们安静得出奇，就像电影里的场景一样。
They're waiting for Bruce.
他们在等布鲁斯。
Bruce drives briskly past as if this happens every day.
布鲁斯轻快地开车过去，仿佛这种事每天都会发生。
Then he spots a cop on the corner and rolls down his window.
然后他发现街角有一名警察，于是摇下车窗。
Where's the police station?
警察局在哪里？
Claire Hoffman The police station is right across from the courthouse.
克莱尔霍夫曼 警察局就在法院对面。
A police escort has been arranged to lead Bruce into court through the back door of the building to avoid the crowd.
已安排警察护送，带领布鲁斯从大楼后门进入法庭，以避免人群。
It's been four years that Bruce has run the UEP trust, and with all the infighting, he doesn't have much to show for it except nearly a dozen lawsuits filed against him.
布鲁斯经营 UEP 信托基金已经四年了，尽管内讧不断，除了近十几起针对他的诉讼外，他没有什么可展示的。
But today, one of them has generated a huge crowd.
但今天，其中的一个却引起了一大群人的围观。
The church has contested Bruce's right to sell off a plot of farmland on the outskirts of town.
教会对布鲁斯出售城郊一块农田的权利提出了质疑。
He has to do it, he says, in order to pay the costs of running the trust.
他说，他必须这样做，才能支付信托基金的运营成本。
The FLDS flock is up in arms, saying the land was sacred and the future site of a temple.
FLDS 的信徒们武装起来，称这片土地是神圣的，未来将成为一座寺庙的所在地。
Today's hearing is an opportunity to make a show of force, to demonstrate just how opposed to Bruce they are.
今天的听证会是一个展示武力、展示他们是多么反对布鲁斯的机会。
And they've come en masse.
他们成群结队而来。
After an hour of closed door deliberations, the judge tells the two parties she won't make a ruling for 30 days and that for now the land won't be sold.
经过一小时的闭门商议后，法官告诉两方，她在 30 天内不会做出裁决，并且暂时不会出售土地。
It's a rare win for the FLDS.
对于 FLDS 来说，这是一次罕见的胜利。
Outside, the huge crowds smile and whisper thanks to their heavenly father for conquering Bruce.
外面，一大群人微笑着低声感谢他们的天父征服了布鲁斯。
God has blessed me so much.
上帝赐福给我这么多。
The heavenly father will win.
天父必胜。
It's very possible that someday soon, when Bruce gets deeds to their homes into the hands of all these people gathered here, church leaders will convince all of them, every last family, to hand their homes right back over to the church and a brand new trust.
很可能很快的某一天，当布鲁斯将他们的家园契约交到聚集在这里的所有这些人手中时，教会领袖将说服他们所有人，每一个家庭，将他们的家园直接交还给教会和一个全新的信托。
If that happens, Bruce says, at least they'll have had a fair chance to get what's rightly theirs.
布鲁斯说，如果发生这种情况，至少他们将有公平的机会得到他们应得的东西。
At least he'll have opened a door.
至少他会打开一扇门。
He can't make them walk through it.
他不能让他们经历这一切。
Claire Hoffman lives in Los Angeles.
克莱尔霍夫曼住在洛杉矶。
Coming up, sex lives of the world's great economists, or of one of them, anyway.
接下来是世界上最伟大的经济学家或其中一位经济学家的性生活。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.
一分钟后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our show, of course, we choose a theme and bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，我们的节目每周都会选择一个主题，并为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's show, The New Boss.
今天的节目是《新老板》。
And before we go any further, I just want to say something about the new boss in Washington D.C., Barack Obama.
在我们进一步讨论之前，我只想谈谈华盛顿特区的新老板巴拉克·奥巴马(Barack Obama)。
And before I say this, I want to be absolutely clear with you that what you are about to hear is not the viewpoint of this public radio station, of Public Radio International, National Public Radio, or anybody else in public radio but the staff of This American Life.
在我这么说之前，我想向你们明确表示，你们将要听到的不是这个公共广播电台、国际公共广播电台、国家公共广播电台或公共广播电台中任何其他人的观点，而是《美国生活》工作人员的观点。
OK?
好的？
This is something that came up at one of our editorial meetings and it is now the official editorial policy of This American Life when it comes to the Obama presidency.
这是我们在一次编辑会议上提出的，现在也是《美国生活》在谈到奥巴马总统任期时的官方编辑政策。
Our senior producer, Julie Snyder, agreed to come into the studio to discuss this.
我们的高级制片人朱莉·斯奈德同意进入工作室讨论这个问题。
The smoking is his one flaw, basically, the one sort of release valve that he has of being not perfect and not always in control and not totally responsible.
吸烟是他的一个缺陷，基本上，这是他不完美、不总是处于控制状态、不完全负责的一种释放阀。
Let the guy have like one moment where he doesn't have to be on stage in his life.
让这个家伙有那么一刻，他一生中不必上舞台。
And so controlled and so responsible.
如此受控，如此负责任。
If he doesn't have this, if we shut down this, then I'm afraid he's going to have an affair.
如果他没有这个，如果我们关闭这个，那么我担心他会发生外遇。
And that's horrible and awful.
这太可怕了。
You know, you would hate him.
你知道，你会恨他的。
I would hate him.
我会恨他。
Everyone would hate him, justifiably so.
每个人都会恨他，这是理所当然的。
[LAUGHS] Ira Glass You think that that's where it goes?
[笑] Ira Glass 你认为事情就是这样吗？
Yeah.
是的。
And I know everyone's all like, oh but, you know, oh, he and Michelle and they bring romance back to the White House and they love each other so much.
我知道每个人都喜欢，哦，但是，你知道，哦，他和米歇尔，他们把浪漫带回了白宫，他们非常相爱。
I totally agree.
我完全同意。
I don't think that he would have an affair because he's unhappy.
我不认为他会因为不开心而发生外遇。
I don't think it would have anything to do with Michelle.
我不认为这与米歇尔有任何关系。
He would just have an affair because he needs like the one vice that reminds him that he is not superhuman and that he's not always just like the President, you know.
他只会有外遇，因为他需要一种恶习来提醒他，他不是超人，而且他并不总是像总统一样，你知道。
And it's not like he'd ever let himself be photographed smoking, too.
他也不会让自己被拍到抽烟。
That's like the thing.
事情就是这样。
I know.
我知道。
Totally.
完全。
Because I know everyone's, oh, he's like a role model and stuff like that.
因为我知道每个人，哦，他就像一个榜样之类的。
Like the guy's hardly going to be like boozing it up and smoking in pictures and stuff.
就像这个家伙很难在照片和其他东西中喝酒和抽烟一样。
There's no way he's going to be caught smoking.
他抽烟绝对不会被抓到。
Julie Snyder is the senior producer of our program.
朱莉·斯奈德是我们节目的高级制片人。
And this brings us to Act Four of our program.
这让我们进入了节目的第四幕。
Act Four, The $15 trillion Dismal Science Project.
第四幕，耗资 15 万亿美元的惨淡科学项目。
Of course, a new boss comes in with a new plan for how things should be run and one of the big parts of Barack Obama's new plan is the economic stimulus package that was passed in the House this week.
当然，新老板就如何运作提出了新计划，巴拉克·奥巴马新计划的重要组成部分之一是众议院本周通过的经济刺激计划。
It's going to be debated next week in the Senate.
下周参议院将对此进行辩论。
He's been talking about this stimulus a lot.
他已经多次谈论这一刺激措施。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Ira Glass This is from the big speech he gave a couple weeks ago where he explained the economic package.
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 这是他几周前发表的大型演讲，他在演讲中解释了经济计划。
The House's version will cost the government over $800 billion, $800 billion of spending and tax cuts that Barack Obama says is the only thing that can help our economy right now.
众议院的版本将花费政府超过8000亿美元，巴拉克·奥巴马表示，8000亿美元的支出和减税是目前唯一能帮助我们经济的事情。
It is true that we cannot depend on government alone to create jobs or long-term growth, but at this particular moment only government can provide the short-term boost necessary to lift us from a recession this deep and severe.
诚然，我们不能仅依靠政府来创造就业机会或长期增长，但在这个特殊时刻，只有政府才能提供必要的短期推动，使我们摆脱如此严重的衰退。
Only government can break the cycle that are crippling our economy, where a lack of spending leads to lost jobs which leads to even less spending, where an inability to lend and borrow stops growth and leads to even less credit.
只有政府才能打破损害我们经济的循环，即缺乏支出导致失业，进而导致支出减少，无法借贷则阻碍增长并导致信贷减少。
His plan would rebuild roads and bridges, double the production of alternative energy, expand access to the internet, and do all kinds of other things.
他的计划将重建道路和桥梁，将替代能源的产量增加一倍，扩大互联网接入，以及做各种其他事情。
It's a plan that represents not just new policy, but a whole new approach to meeting our most urgent challenges.
该计划不仅代表了新政策，而且代表了应对我们最紧迫挑战的全新方法。
In fact, much of the President's plan comes straight out of a very old playbook, a playbook developed before World War II, in fact, in the depths of the Great Depression by a foul-mouthed, slutty British elitist, who was called arrogant, supercilious, unbearably boorish.
事实上，总统的大部分计划都直接出自一本非常古老的剧本，这部剧本是在第二次世界大战之前制定的，事实上，是在大萧条最严重的时期，由一位满嘴脏话、放荡的英国精英主义者制定的，他被称为傲慢、目空一切、令人难以忍受的粗鲁。
And that's by his friends.
那是他的朋友们说的。
His enemies, man, they really hated him.
他的敌人，伙计，他们真的很恨他。
He's one of the great economists of the 20th century and you've probably heard his name, John Maynard Keynes.
他是 20 世纪最伟大的经济学家之一，您可能听说过他的名字：约翰·梅纳德·凯恩斯。
The team that brings us our economic stories here on This American Life-- that's our producer, Alex Blumberg, and NPR economics correspondent, Adam Davidson-- have this story about him and his playbook.
在《美国生活》中为我们带来经济故事的团队——我们的制片人亚历克斯·布隆伯格（Alex Blumberg）和 NPR 经济记者亚当·戴维森（Adam Davidson）——讲述了关于他和他的剧本的故事。
Keynes published his big theory-- the theory underpinning President Obama's fiscal stimulus-- in 1936.
凯恩斯于 1936 年发表了他的重要理论——支撑奥巴马总统财政刺激的理论。
And many would argue that 73-year-old theory is being tested right now for the very first time.
许多人认为，73 年前的理论现在正在首次接受检验。
And Adam, you've been carrying around Keynes's 1,000 page biography for weeks now getting ready for this story.
亚当，几周来你一直带着凯恩斯的 1000 页传记，现在正在为这个故事做准备。
Yeah, it's the abridged version, I should tell you.
是的，我应该告诉你，这是精简版。
Yeah, it's huge.
是的，它很大。
It's by this guy Lord Robert Skidelsky and it is such a great read because Keynes is totally fascinating.
这是罗伯特·斯基德尔斯基勋爵（Lord Robert Skidelsky）写的，这是一本很棒的书，因为凯恩斯非常迷人。
Every few pages I'm flipping between thinking he's an amazing, charming, genius and then that he's a narrow-minded jerk.
每隔几页，我就会在认为他是一个令人惊叹的、迷人的天才和他是一个心胸狭隘的混蛋之间切换。
I keep thinking that there are at least two movies you could make about Keynes.
我一直在想，至少可以拍两部关于凯恩斯的电影。
In one, you'd see Keynes as the statesman advising presidents and prime ministers and furiously writing up these papers that change the direction of modern intellectual thought.
在其中，你会看到凯恩斯作为政治家为总统和总理提供建议，并疯狂地撰写这些改变现代知识分子思想方向的论文。
The paper writing montage.
论文写作蒙太奇。
Alex Blumberg Yeah, the paper writing montage.
亚历克斯·布隆伯格 是的，论文写作蒙太奇。
It's exciting.
这很令人兴奋。
And then you'd zoom in on him coming up with the plan that some say save the free world from communist takeover after World War II.
然后你会放大他提出的计划，有人说这是二战后拯救自由世界免遭共产主义接管的计划。
So that's one movie you could make.
所以这是你可以拍的一部电影。
Another movie would pretty much be a gay porno.
另一部电影几乎就是同性恋色情片。
Well, why don't you tell us more about that one then.
好吧，那你为什么不告诉我们更多关于这个的事情呢？
He ran with the Bloomsbury Group, you know, like Virginia Woolf and all those painters and poets.
你知道，他与布卢姆斯伯里集团一起运作，就像弗吉尼亚·伍尔夫和所有那些画家和诗人一样。
They were into free love and raunchy language and they used to complain in letters to each other that Keynes was just way too dirty for them.
他们热衷于自由恋爱和粗俗语言，他们常常在信中抱怨凯恩斯对他们来说太肮脏了。
So he was out there.
所以他就在外面。
In the early 1900s, he was an openly gay figure.
1900 年代初，他是一位公开的同性恋人物。
He would take his boyfriends to fancy dinner parties.
他会带他的男朋友去参加豪华的晚宴。
People referred to them as married.
人们称他们为已婚人士。
And then suddenly in 1925, after sleeping with a lot of his students at Cambridge and many other men in the Bloomsbury orbit, he married a woman and was by all accounts quite happy with her and faithful.
1925 年，在与剑桥大学的许多学生以及布鲁姆斯伯里圈子里的许多其他男人睡过之后，他突然娶了一个女人，据说他对她非常满意并且忠诚。
You get this sense of a guy who did and said whatever he wanted.
你会感觉到一个人想做什么就做什么、想说什么就说什么。
And that's just as true in his economics as in his private life.
这不仅体现在他的经济上，也体现在他的私人生活中。
He loved hurling himself on the public stage with all these shocking, outrageous opinions.
他喜欢在公共舞台上发表这些令人震惊、令人愤慨的观点。
And the opinions were all over the place.
意见无处不在。
Sometimes he's almost a socialist, then he's fanatically defending free markets.
有时他几乎是一个社会主义者，有时他又狂热地捍卫自由市场。
Reading Keynes is kind of like reading the Bible.
阅读凯恩斯有点像阅读圣经。
You could probably find a passage written sometime that justifies just about any position.
你可能会发现某个时候写的一段话可以证明任何立场的合理性。
But there is this common thread in what he wrote.
但他所写的内容中有一个共同点。
Yes, he generally felt that almost any problem could be solved by getting together a bunch of young men who had gone to Cambridge and asking them to run things.
是的，他普遍认为，几乎任何问题都可以通过召集一群上过剑桥的年轻人并让他们来管理来解决。
Every once in awhile, he might be OK with an Oxford man, but really Cambridge was best.
偶尔，他可能会接受牛津大学的人，但实际上剑桥人是最好的。
He even wanted Cambridge men to run America.
他甚至希望剑桥人来管理美国。
He didn't think anyone in the US was smart enough.
他认为美国没有人足够聪明。
He also, by the way, didn't like Jews, the French, the working class.
顺便说一句，他也不喜欢犹太人、法国人和工人阶级。
Yeah, and he had the sense that these Cambridge-led government boards should sort of run everything from individual companies to determining how many babies should be born and, he wrote cryptically, of what quality.
是的，他有一种感觉，这些由剑桥领导的政府委员会应该管理一切事务，从个别公司到确定应该出生多少婴儿，以及他神秘地写道，婴儿的质量如何。
He was, after all, on the board of directors of the British Eugenics Society.
毕竟，他是英国优生学协会的董事会成员。
So here we are in modern day America, millions of working men and women in peril, and this is the guy we're turning to?
那么，我们现在身处现代美国，数以百万计的工人男女处于危险之中，而这就是我们要求助的人？
A bigoted Americaphobe who hates working men and women?
一个讨厌美国工人的顽固的美国恐惧者？
Well, yes, and it's all because of this book he wrote in the 1930s.
嗯，是的，这都是因为他在 20 世纪 30 年代写的这本书。
His prescription for how to get out of the global depression.
他为如何摆脱全球萧条开出了处方。
It was his masterpiece, published in 1936, The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money.
这是他的代表作，发表于 1936 年，《就业、利息和货币通论》。
I've read The General Theory about five times, I would guess.
我猜我已经读过《通论》大约五遍了。
I think the first time I read it I was maybe 18.
我想我第一次读这本书的时候我大概18岁。
Tyler Cowen is an economist at George Mason University and he's been very publicly reading Keynes's masterwork again, this time writing notes and conducting a discussion on his blog, Marginal Revolution.
泰勒·考恩 (Tyler Cowen) 是乔治梅森大学的经济学家，他再次公开阅读凯恩斯的杰作，这次在他的博客《边际革命》上写下笔记并进行讨论。
He says it's no easier the sixth time around.
他说第六次并不容易。
Here is a sample sentence.
这是一个例句。
"But it is a grave objection to this definition for such a purpose that the community's output of goods and services is a non-homogeneous complex which cannot be measured, strictly speaking, except in certain special cases as, for example, when all the items of one output are included in the same proportions in another output." And that's without looking.
“但严重反对这一定义，因为社区的商品和服务的产出是一个非同质的综合体，严格来说，它无法测量，除非在某些特殊情况下，例如，当一种产出的所有项目都以相同的比例包含在另一种产出中时。”那是不看的。
That was a purely random passage.
那是一段纯粹随机的段落。
And that was like page what?
那就像页面什么？
Tyler Cowen That was page 38.
泰勒·考恩 那是第 38 页。
Yeah, so it's hard to imagine too many people getting to page 39.
是的，所以很难想象有太多人会读到第 39 页。
If you do make it through The General Theory, you learn that Keynes was correcting what he saw as a fundamental error in the economics that had come before.
如果你确实读完了《通论》，你就会发现凯恩斯正在纠正他所认为的经济学中的一个根本性错误。
Under classical economics, if there's a downturn, the economy will sort itself out.
根据古典经济学，如果出现经济衰退，经济就会自行解决。
If people aren't buying enough, prices will drop to where people start spending.
如果人们没有购买足够的东西，价格就会下降到人们开始消费的水平。
Keynes's radical insight was to look out the window in the 1930s and see that sometimes things don't right themselves.
凯恩斯的激进洞察力是在 20 世纪 30 年代望向窗外，发现有时事情并不会自行好转。
And the economy goes into a downward spiral.
经济陷入螺旋式下降。
Everything just gets worse and worse.
一切都变得越来越糟。
And it looked, in the 1930s, as if that's what was happening.
20 世纪 30 年代，情况似乎就是这样发生的。
And to some extent, it was.
在某种程度上，确实如此。
A failure of effective demand, he called it.
他称之为有效需求的失败。
This is another economist, Alan Blinder at Princeton, who was an economic adviser to President Clinton.
这是另一位经济学家，普林斯顿大学的艾伦·布林德，他是克林顿总统的经济顾问。
A failure of effective demand, he says, is basically that people aren't spending enough money.
他说，有效需求的失败基本上是因为人们没有花足够的钱。
Maybe they don't have any or they got laid off or they're afraid they're going to get laid off.
也许他们没有，或者他们被解雇了，或者他们担心自己会被解雇。
And if people aren't spending enough money, there's no way for the economy to automatically adjust.
如果人们没有花足够的钱，经济就无法自动调整。
And in the 1930s, nobody else had figured out how to get people spending again.
在 20 世纪 30 年代，没有人知道如何让人们再次消费。
The Keynesian prescription is if all else fails, the government can spend the money.
凯恩斯主义的处方是，如果其他方法都失败了，政府可以花钱。
So normally we don't say in a free market economy, well, the government.
所以通常我们在自由市场经济中不会说政府。
We say, well, people and businesses should do it, but Keynes's idea, which was revolutionary at the time, is if the private sector won't do it, then the public sector can do it as a fill-in, a stop gap.
我们说，好吧，个人和企业应该这样做，但凯恩斯的想法在当时是革命性的，那就是如果私营部门不这样做，那么公共部门可以作为补充和权宜之计。
Blinder, like lots of Keynesians says that's basically what happened.
正如许多凯恩斯主义者所说，布林德基本上就是这样说的。
Government spending got us out of the depression, but not in the way we learned in school.
政府支出让我们摆脱了萧条，但不是以我们在学校学到的方式。
You know, I learned that FDR, inspired by Keynes, spent his way out of the depression.
你知道，我了解到罗斯福在凯恩斯的启发下，用自己的方式摆脱了萧条。
FDR did expand the government spending.
罗斯福确实扩大了政府支出。
He started the WPA and the Tennessee Valley Authority and a whole alphabet soup of other programs, but he never spent as much money as Keynes said he should have.
他发起了 WPA 和田纳西河谷管理局以及其他一系列的字母汤项目，但他从来没有像凯恩斯所说的那样花那么多钱。
And he did all sorts of things that Keynes opposed, like raising taxes and trying to balance the budget, which Keynes said would just cancel out any positive effect from the spending.
他做了凯恩斯反对的各种事情，比如提高税收和试图平衡预算，凯恩斯说这只会抵消支出的任何积极影响。
FDR sort of drove Keynes crazy, actually, and prompted at least one scolding letter.
事实上，罗斯福有点让凯恩斯发疯，并引发了至少一封责骂信。
But then geopolitical events took over and forced FDR to spend as much money as Keynes wanted.
但随后地缘政治事件接踵而至，迫使罗斯福按照凯恩斯的意愿花钱。
The huge dose of massive Keynesian stimulus came in the buildup to World War II.
大规模凯恩斯主义刺激措施是在第二次世界大战前夕进行的。
We started spending titanic amounts of money.
我们开始花费巨额资金。
And was the way we ended the depression Keynesian?
我们结束萧条的方式是凯恩斯主义的吗？
Was it--
难道是——
Yeah, it was Keynesian, but it was not for that reason.
是的，这是凯恩斯主义，但不是因为这个原因。
I mean, it was to fight Hitler and to fight Tojo, but it was Keynesian.
我的意思是，这是为了对抗希特勒和东条，但这是凯恩斯主义的。
Keynes had a heart attack and died in early 1946, which left economists to basically fight over his ideas right through today.
凯恩斯因心脏病发作于 1946 年初去世，这使得经济学家直到今天基本上都在争论他的观点。
One of the first fights, did Keynes get us out of the depression?
最早的战斗之一，凯恩斯让我们摆脱了萧条吗？
On one side, people like Alan Blinder, who still believes that a Keynesian dose of massive military spending did the job.
一方面，像艾伦·布林德这样的人仍然相信凯恩斯主义的大规模军费开支起到了作用。
On the other side, folks like Tyler Cowen.
另一方面，像泰勒·考恩这样的人。
I don't agree with that at all.
我完全不同意这一点。
World War II was a time of economic misery.
第二次世界大战是一段经济困难时期。
There was low consumption.
消费低迷。
There was rationing.
有配给。
Times were tough.
日子过得很艰难。
It was a continuation of the Great Depression.
这是大萧条的延续。
The numbers for GDP were high because we were making tanks, but it didn't make people better off.
GDP 的数字很高，因为我们制造了坦克，但这并没有让人们的生活变得更好。
And unemployment was low because people were fighting a war.
由于人们正在进行战争，失业率很低。
But they were being killed.
但他们正在被杀。
It was terrible.
太可怕了。
So the numbers are, in a way, phony, even though they look good.
因此，从某种程度上来说，这些数字是假的，尽管它们看起来不错。
So in that sense, the war made the depression worse.
所以从这个意义上说，战争加剧了萧条。
Back in the 1940s, nobody was listening to that argument.
早在 20 世纪 40 年代，没有人在听这种争论。
For about 30 years after World War II, Keynesianism was mainstream economic theory, but during that time Keynes's theory morphed into something that Keynes himself wouldn't have recognized.
二战后大约30年里，凯恩斯主义是主流经济理论，但在那段时间凯恩斯的理论演变成凯恩斯本人都不会认识到的东西。
Keynes's mantra was always uncertainty, what he once called the dark forces of time and ignorance which envelop our future.
凯恩斯的口头禅始终是不确定性，他曾将其称为笼罩我们未来的时间和无知的黑暗力量。
But his disciples came to believe that his theories could be used in a much more precise way to control the economy than Keynes ever believed.
但他的弟子们开始相信，他的理论可以以比凯恩斯所认为的更精确的方式来控制经济。
So Keynes's disciples thought if the economy needs a little boost, you cut just enough taxes and increase just enough spending.
因此，凯恩斯的信徒认为，如果经济需要一点提振，就可以削减足够的税收并增加足够的支出。
If the economy is heating up, you do the opposite.
如果经济正在升温，你就会做相反的事情。
You raise taxes by a couple of percentage points and cut government spending.
您将税收提高几个百分点并削减政府支出。
Alan Blinder, the Keynesian economist at Princeton, says that there was a triumphant sense among Keynesians, that by carefully tweaking taxes and spending this way, they could overcome booms and busts.
普林斯顿大学凯恩斯主义经济学家艾伦·布林德 (Alan Blinder) 表示，凯恩斯主义者有一种胜利感，认为通过仔细调整税收和支出，他们可以克服繁荣和萧条。
They could permanently eliminate recessions.
它们可以永久消除经济衰退。
There was a view that developed in the 1960s-- and developed excessively, one must admit in retrospect-- that we could steer the national economy pretty well.
20 世纪 60 年代出现了一种观点——人们必须承认，现在回想起来，这种观点已经过度发展了——我们可以很好地驾驭国民经济。
Not perfectly, but pretty well.
不完美，但相当不错。
If you pick up Walter Heller's book that was written in the 1960s-- Walter Heller was the head of the Council of Economic Advisers for Kennedy.
如果你翻阅 Walter Heller 在 20 世纪 60 年代写的书，就会发现 Walter Heller 是肯尼迪经济顾问委员会的主席。
The amount of optimism exuded there seems almost laughable.
那里所流露出的乐观情绪似乎近乎可笑。
This was a watch we were repairing.
这是我们正在修理的一块手表。
One way the economy is not like a watch, when you repair a watch, politicians aren't involved.
一方面，经济不像手表，当你修理手表时，政治家不参与其中。
Politicians took the Keynesian message that government spending can be good and they kind of went nuts.
政客们接受了凯恩斯主义的观点，即政府支出可以带来好处，但他们有点疯狂。
They paid for the war on poverty, the Vietnam war, they sent a man to the moon, all the time running up the federal deficit, convinced that Keynes gave them a free pass.
他们为反贫困战争、越南战争付出了代价，他们把人送上了月球，联邦赤字一直在增加，他们坚信凯恩斯给了他们一张免费通行证。
For Keynesians this is always a problem.
对于凯恩斯主义者来说，这始终是一个问题。
Prescribing Keynesianism to some politicians is like prescribing crack to a coke addict.
给一些政客开凯恩斯主义处方，就像给可乐成瘾者开强效强效药物一样。
They like it a little too much.
他们有点太喜欢了。
And in the 1970s, the patient hit rock bottom.
在 20 世纪 70 年代，患者跌入谷底。
We had high unemployment and the Keynesian solution stopped working.
我们的失业率很高，凯恩斯主义的解决方案不再奏效。
We spent and spent and unemployment got worse and we got inflation, something Keynesians had no answer for.
我们花啊花，失业率变得更糟，通货膨胀也随之而来，凯恩斯主义者对此无能为力。
After that, it was the Keynesians' turn to walk in the wilderness.
此后，轮到凯恩斯主义者在荒野中行走了。
When I took macroeconomics in the 1980s and early 1990s, the textbooks explained the basic Keynesian system but then spent a few chapters showing why the Keynesian system did not work.
当我在 20 世纪 80 年代和 90 年代初学习宏观经济学时，教科书解释了基本的凯恩斯主义体系，但随后又花了几章来说明为什么凯恩斯主义体系不起作用。
This is economist Chris Edwards with the avowedly anti-Keynesian Cato Institute, a think tank founded in 1977 near Keynesianism's lowest point.
这是经济学家克里斯·爱德华兹 (Chris Edwards)，他所在的卡托研究所 (Cato Institute) 公开反对凯恩斯主义，该研究所成立于 1977 年，当时正值凯恩斯主义的最低点。
I thought the debate was settled in the 80s and I thought we all agreed that Keynesianism doesn't work.
我以为争论在 80 年代就已经解决了，我以为我们都同意凯恩斯主义行不通。
But now with the new stimulus package before Congress all these Keynesians have come out of the woodwork.
但现在，随着新的经济刺激方案摆在国会面前，所有这些凯恩斯主义者都已脱颖而出。
Did you know there were Keynesians around?
你知道周围有凯恩斯主义者吗？
Sure, but I thought the sort of kindergarten Keynesianism, as I call it-- the simple idea that the government could spend more money to grow the economy.
当然可以，但我认为这是一种幼儿园凯恩斯主义，我称之为——政府可以花更多钱来发展经济的简单想法。
I thought that really sort of simple Keynesian idea had died in the 1970s, but I was wrong.
我认为这种简单的凯恩斯主义理念在 20 世纪 70 年代已经消亡，但我错了。
Edwards is part of the school of thought that replaced Keynsianism.
爱德华兹是取代凯恩斯主义的思想流派的一部分。
There are a bunch different groups in this school, the monitorists, the Chicago school, supply side economics.
这个学派里有很多不同的团体，监察主义者、芝加哥学派、供给方经济学。
And they use a different set of tools to steer the economy than the Keynesians.
他们使用一套与凯恩斯主义者不同的工具来引导经济。
The Keynesians, remember, like to use taxes and government deficits.
请记住，凯恩斯主义者喜欢利用税收和政府赤字。
These anti-Keynesians said, never use those tools.
这些反凯恩斯主义者说，永远不要使用这些工具。
All you have to do is have the central bank, the Fed, carefully control interest rates.
你所要做的就是让中央银行美联储仔细控制利率。
If the economy overheats, raise rates.
如果经济过热，就加息。
If it starts to sputter, lower them.
如果它开始溅射，请将其降低。
This is why you've heard so many newscasts in the last two decades about Alan Greenspan or Ben Bernanke raising or lowering interest rates.
这就是为什么您在过去二十年中听到如此多有关艾伦·格林斯潘或本·伯南克提高或降低利率的新闻广播。
The Central Bank raised its federal funds rate by half a point.
央行将联邦基金利率上调半个百分点。
The Federal Reserve Board's interest rate setting arm announced a quarter of a percent cut in a key overnight bank lending rate today.
美联储利率制定机构今天宣布将主要隔夜银行贷款利率下调四分之一。
The Federal Reserve raised the short-term interest rate today by a quarter percentage point to 4.75%.
美联储今天将短期利率上调四分之一个百分点至4.75%。
The Keynesians and anti-Keynesians fought some bitter battles through the 1980s, but by the Clinton administration, most economists agreed on the basics.
凯恩斯主义者和反凯恩斯主义者在 20 世纪 80 年代进行了一些激烈的斗争，但到了克林顿政府，大多数经济学家在基本观点上达成了一致。
Some of Keynes's ideas are useful, but we're in a post-Keynesian world.
凯恩斯的一些想法很有用，但我们正处于后凯恩斯主义世界。
The interest rate is the tool we use.
利率是我们使用的工具。
This view held pretty much until exactly one month ago, December 16th, 2008, to be precise.
这种观点几乎一直持续到一个月前，准确地说是2008年12月16日。
There was a surprise move at the Federal Reserve today.
今天美联储采取了令人惊讶的举措。
The Fed was expected to cut interest rates by a half point.
预计美联储将降息半个百分点。
Instead, the Fed cut the key lending rate by as much as a full point to zero.
相反，美联储将关键贷款利率下调了整整一个百分点至零。
That's the lowest federal funds rate on record.
这是有记录以来最低的联邦基金利率。
That's the day the Fed tried to stabilize the economy by lowering interest rates all the way down to 0%.
就在这一天，美联储试图通过将利率一路降至 0% 来稳定经济。
It can't go lower.
已经不能再低了
But the economy kept getting worse.
但经济持续恶化。
Their main tool seemed to have stopped working.
他们的主要工具似乎已经停止工作了。
So economists and policy makers started looking around for some other way to fix things and they found that there's one guy in particular who'd given a lot of thought about how to get out of a situation like this.
因此，经济学家和政策制定者开始寻找其他方法来解决问题，他们发现有一个人对如何摆脱这种情况进行了很多思考。
OK, so here's the way Keynes would have done it.
好的，这就是凯恩斯的做法。
So you measure here output.
所以你在这里测量输出。
We're in Alan Blinder's office at Princeton, which conveniently has a blackboard.
我们在普林斯顿大学艾伦·布林德的办公室，那里有一块黑板，很方便。
And he's up there applying Keynes's formula-- it's pretty straightforward-- for how to get out of a mess like the one we're in.
他在那里应用了凯恩斯的公式——非常简单——来解决如何摆脱像我们这样的混乱局面。
You start with some estimates.
您从一些估计开始。
First, you guess what the economy would be producing if all the people and factories and businesses were working at full capacity.
首先，你猜猜如果所有的人、工厂和企业都满负荷运转，经济会产生什么。
Blinders guess, that's around $15 trillion.
Blinders 猜测，这大约是 15 万亿美元。
And then you look at what the economy is actually producing.
然后你看看经济实际生产了什么。
Let's put that at $14 trillion.
我们假设为 14 万亿美元。
You don't know any of these numbers.
这些数字你都不知道。
You estimate all of them.
你估计所有这些。
So the economy should be producing $15 trillion, but it's only producing $14 trillion.
因此经济应该产生 15 万亿美元，但实际上只产生了 14 万亿美元。
There's $1 trillion shortfall.
缺口达1万亿美元。
So the theory says that if the government spends money, or gives us money to spend through tax cuts, that will increase everybody's spending and get the economy back to where it should be.
因此，该理论认为，如果政府花钱，或者通过减税给我们钱花，这将增加每个人的支出，并使经济回到应有的水平。
The government doesn't have to spend the whole $1 trillion shortfall, though, because of something called the Keynesian multiplier.
不过，由于所谓的凯恩斯乘数，政府不必花掉全部 1 万亿美元的缺口。
Every dollar the government spends produces more than a dollar in spending throughout the economy.
政府支出的每一美元都会在整个经济中产生超过一美元的支出。
If they pay you to build a bridge, you spend your paycheck on rent and food and so on, and then those people have money to spend on other stuff.
如果他们付钱给你建一座桥梁，你就把薪水花在租金和食物等上，然后这些人就有钱花在其他东西上。
So, according to Keynes, there's a clear answer to how much Mr. Obama's administration should spend.
因此，根据凯恩斯的说法，奥巴马政府应该花多少钱有一个明确的答案。
To raise the GDP by $1 trillion.
将GDP增加1万亿美元。
Suppose your multiplier was around one and a half, so that would lead you to conclude that you needed about $650 billion as a stimulus.
假设你的乘数约为 1.5，那么你就会得出结论，你需要大约 6500 亿美元作为刺激措施。
Voila.
瞧。
That's the kind of number they're talking about right now.
这就是他们现在正在谈论的数字。
You see it in the newspapers every day, a number in that range.
你每天都会在报纸上看到这个范围内的数字。
Have you done this more rigorously for yourself?
你是否对自己更严格地做到了这一点？
Right now, a lot of economists are supporting the idea of a stimulus package.
目前，许多经济学家都支持刺激计划的想法。
There are people you'd expect, like Paul Krugman, a proud Keynesian at The New York Times, and there are some surprises like President Reagan's Chief Economic Adviser Martin Feldstein.
有些人是你所期待的，比如保罗·克鲁格曼（Paul Krugman），一位自豪的《纽约时报》凯恩斯主义者，也有一些令人惊讶的人，比如里根总统的首席经济顾问马丁·费尔德斯坦（Martin Feldstein）。
When I talked to economists, I found a lot are in the middle, not convinced it'll work, but in the absence of anything else, they figure let's give it a try.
当我与经济学家交谈时，我发现很多人都处于中间状态，不相信它会起作用，但在没有其他任何东西的情况下，他们认为让我们尝试一下。
But the frightening thing about a stimulus package is that no matter which economists you talk to-- the ones who want the Keynesian stimulus and the ones who think it's the worst idea ever-- are looking at exactly the same data.
但刺激计划的可怕之处在于，无论你与哪位经济学家交谈——那些想要凯恩斯主义刺激的经济学家和那些认为这是有史以来最糟糕想法的经济学家——所看到的都是完全相同的数据。
They're just coming to utterly opposite conclusions about it.
他们只是得出了完全相反的结论。
This, even economists like Alan Blinder will tell you, is the problem with economics.
即使像艾伦·布林德这样的经济学家也会告诉你，这就是经济学的问题。
The biggest problem with learning things in economics is the inability to do controlled experiments.
学习经济学的最大问题是无法进行受控实验。
So we don't have-- unlike what is the case in many but not all sciences-- the definitive experiment.
因此，与许多但并非所有科学的情况不同，我们没有确定的实验。
Right?
正确的？
This experiment they did in the 1920s proved that Einstein was right about the perturbation of mercury.
他们在 20 年代做的这个实验证明了爱因斯坦关于汞扰动的观点是正确的。
It proved it.
事实证明了这一点。
We can never do that in economics.
在经济学中我们永远无法做到这一点。
The best you can have is a really good theory.
你能拥有的最好的就是一个非常好的理论。
The best you can have is a real good theory.
你能拥有的最好的就是一个真正好的理论。
It's not going to work perfectly in a textbook manner all the time.
它不会一直以教科书的方式完美地工作。
For Tyler Cowen, though, this is about as good as it gets for testing Keynes's theory.
不过，对于泰勒·考恩来说，这对于检验凯恩斯的理论来说已经是最好的了。
Remember, he like a lot of anti-Keynesians, doesn't think Keynes got us out of the depression.
请记住，他像许多反凯恩斯主义者一样，认为凯恩斯并没有让我们摆脱萧条。
He doesn't support Barack Obama's stimulus plan.
他不支持巴拉克·奥巴马的经济刺激计划。
He thinks Keynes was probably wrong.
他认为凯恩斯可能是错的。
But if we do the stimulus and the economy quickly recovers--
但如果我们采取刺激措施，经济就会迅速复苏——
That would prove that Blinder is right and I am wrong.
这将证明布林德是对的而我是错的。
Definitively?
确定吗？
Tyler Cowen Well, no test is definitive, but it would be strong evidence.
泰勒·考恩（Tyler Cowen）：好吧，没有任何测试是确定的，但这将是强有力的证据。
If we spend $700 billion and the economy recovers within a year or a year and a half, I would take that as serious evidence that my view is wrong.
如果我们花费 7000 亿美元，经济在一年或一年半内复苏，我会认为这是我的观点是错误的重要证据。
I don't think it will happen, but I would take it seriously.
我不认为这会发生，但我会认真对待它。
So, this just happens to be-- just the elements that have come together right now have just accidentally created the perfect conditions for this test.
所以，这恰好是——现在聚集在一起的元素无意中为这次测试创造了完美的条件。
Near perfect.
近乎完美。
I view this, if we decide to, as the first test of Keynesian fiscal policy as a formula for getting out of a depression.
如果我们决定的话，我认为这是对凯恩斯主义财政政策作为摆脱萧条公式的第一次考验。
The very first test.
第一次测试。
It's one reason why I don't want to do it, because in my opinion, the idea's untested.
这是我不想这样做的原因之一，因为在我看来，这个想法未经测试。
So to spend, say, $1 trillion on an untested idea, in my view, is a mistake.
因此，在我看来，花费 1 万亿美元在一个未经测试的想法上是一个错误。
There are lots of economists who think a Keynesian stimulus would be a mistake for all sorts of reasons.
许多经济学家出于各种原因认为凯恩斯主义刺激措施是错误的。
Some say you don't need a stimulus to fix the recession because a recession isn't a disease that needs a cure.
有人说，不需要刺激措施来解决经济衰退，因为经济衰退不是一种需要治愈的疾病。
It is the cure.
这是治愈方法。
A recession brings down prices from a falsely inflated high.
经济衰退使价格从虚高的高位回落。
A recession is what makes houses affordable again.
经济衰退使房屋再次变得买得起。
Others say a stimulus package might end the recession but then we'll have worse problems later on: vicious inflation, a bigger, less efficient government, and $1 trillion more in debt to pay off.
其他人则表示，刺激计划可能会结束经济衰退，但随后我们会遇到更严重的问题：恶性通胀、规模更大、效率更低的政府，以及需要偿还的额外 1 万亿美元债务。
The Obama administration is betting that none of this will happen.
奥巴马政府打赌这一切都不会发生。
They're trusting a different theory.
他们相信不同的理论。
They're trusting Keynes.
他们信任凯恩斯。
Alex Blumberg and Adam Davidson.
亚历克斯·布隆伯格和亚当·戴维森。
You can hear them do economics coverage in normal human language several times a week at the Planet Money podcast.
您可以在 Planet Money 播客中每周多次听到他们用正常人类语言进行经济报道。
To find that, google Planet Money.
要找到这一点，请谷歌 Planet Money。
Well, our program was produced today by Sarah Koenig and me with Alex Blumberg, Jane Feltes, Lisa Pollak, Robyn Semien, Alyssa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
好吧，我们今天的节目是由 Sarah Koenig 和我与 Alex Blumberg、Jane Feltes、Lisa Pollak、Robyn Semien、Alyssa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 共同制作的。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Production help from Andrew Dixon.
安德鲁·迪克森 (Andrew Dixon) 提供制作帮助。
Seth Lind is our production manager.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的生产经理。
Music help from Jessica Hopper.
杰西卡·霍珀的音乐帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, www.thisamericanlife.org.
[致谢] 我们的网站 www.thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
WBEZ management oversight of our program by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia, who does not want to be dragged into the credits of our show.
我们的老板 Torey Malatia 先生对我们的节目进行 WBEZ 管理监督，他不想被拖入我们节目的制作人员名单中。
He doesn't want to.
他不想。
He doesn't like it, though he says he might be persuaded.
他不喜欢这样，尽管他说他可能会被说服。
Yes, he might be persuaded one last time.
是的，他可能最后一次被说服。
I told you, I'm out of the game.
我告诉过你，我已经退出游戏了。
What'd you say?
你说什么？
Actually it sounds like it might be kind of fun.
事实上，听起来可能很有趣。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week for more stories of This American Life.
下周回来观看更多《美国生活》的故事。
P R I, Public Radio International.
PR I，国际公共广播电台。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。