368: Who Do You Think You Are? - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #368 | November 7, 2008 368: Who Do You Think You Are?
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 368 集 | 2008 年 11 月 7 日 368：你认为你是谁？
Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass I want to play you this moment that happened to get captured on tape.
序言 Ira Glass 我想扮演你这个恰巧被记录在磁带上的时刻。
But to fully appreciate this moment, you need a little background.
但要充分欣赏这一刻，您需要一些背景知识。
This was recorded in Hoboken, New Jersey.
这是在新泽西州霍博肯录制的。
And Hoboken is this old city on the water with these tiny, narrow streets.
霍博肯是一座古老的水上城市，街道又小又窄。
And because of the way the streets are laid out, parking is just a huge issue there.
由于街道的布局方式，停车是一个大问题。
It is always impossible to find a parking space.
总是找不到停车位。
And they'll ticket you if you go just an inch or two into a no parking zone.
如果你进入禁止停车区一两英寸，他们就会给你开罚单。
Very strict, that is, for most people.
非常严格，也就是说，对于大多数人来说。
Some people, apparently, never get tickets.
显然，有些人永远买不到票。
And a couple years ago, this started to bother a woman named Kathy Mallow.
几年前，这开始困扰一位名叫凯西·马洛的女士。
She was outside on the sidewalk a lot walking her dogs.
她经常在外面的人行道上遛狗。
And she kept seeing this car belonging to this B-list character actor who's in the movies.
她一直看到这辆车属于电影中的二线演员。
And this car would always be parked in front of this one Italian restaurant, blatantly illegal, over and over.
这辆车总是一遍又一遍地停在这家意大利餐厅前面，公然违法。
And when she would go to the cops about this, they did nothing, which was, of course, infuriating, and seemed so unfair.
当她向警察报告此事时，他们什么也没做，这当然令人愤怒，而且看起来很不公平。
And not really knowing what else to do, she started photographing the actor's car.
由于不知道还能做什么，她开始拍摄演员的汽车。
So she all of these photos taken over the course of months-- this car sitting there, illegal, no ticket.
所以她在几个月的时间里拍摄了所有这些照片——这辆车停在那里，非法的，没有罚单。
She became, really, kind of obsessed.
她真的有点着迷了。
Her nickname now in Hoboken is the Hoboken Hall Monitor.
她现在在霍博肯的绰号是“霍博肯大厅监视器”。
It's really at a point where she worries sometimes that she comes off as a crazy person.
有时她确实担心自己看起来像个疯子。
OK, that's the setup.
好的，这就是设置。
That brings us to this tape.
这让我们看到了这盘磁带。
Hey, Ron.
嘿，罗恩。
How are you?
你好吗？
Ron Good, how are you?
罗恩·古德，你好吗？
How's everything?
一切怎么样？
How's the cat?
猫怎么样了？
Kathy is walking down the street.
凯西正走在街上。
And she's the kind of person who knows everybody she passes on the street.
她是那种认识街上遇到的每个人的人。
Hi, Tessa.
嗨，泰莎。
Ira Glass And she's with her neighbor, Tracy.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 她和她的邻居特蕾西在一起。
Tracy Roland is a reporter.
特雷西·罗兰是一名记者。
And Tracy is rolling tape because she is asking Kathy to explain about the movie actor's car.
特蕾西正在播放磁带，因为她要求凯西解释一下电影演员的汽车。
I would see it every day at the same time because-- oh here's a parking utility guy.
我每天都会在同一时间看到它，因为——哦，这是一个停车公用事业人员。
What's he doing?
他在做什么？
What he's doing is parking his black city SUV.
他正在做的事情是停放他的黑色城市SUV。
This is an official vehicle, marked Hoboken Parking Utility-- that's the Hoboken parking police-- in an unmistakable no-parking yellow zone, on the Northeast corner of 1st and Bloomfield.
这是一辆官方车辆，标有 Hoboken Parking Utility（即霍博肯停车警察局），位于 1 号街和 Bloomfield 的东北角一个明显的禁止停车黄色区域内。
And then, the guy, who is in uniform with a badge, gets out and walks to a bar.
然后，那个穿着制服、佩戴徽章的家伙下车，走向一家酒吧。
He's leaving his illegally-parked vehicle.
他正在离开非法停放的车辆。
Yeah.
是的。
OK.
好的。
Kathy Mallow Hi.
凯西·马洛 嗨。
Do you mind answering a question about your car?
你介意回答一个关于你的车的问题吗？
I'm sorry.
对不起。
I can't.
我不能。
Tracy Roland Do you want to tell us--
特蕾西·罗兰 你想告诉我们吗——
Why is your parking utility van parked so illegally, including into the pedestrian crosswalk?
为什么您的停车车如此非法停放，包括停在人行横道上？
I'm running in there.
我正跑进去。
I'm going to tell my friend something.
我要告诉我朋友一件事。
Is that all right with you?
你可以吗？
Oh, OK.
哦，好吧。
Going into Buskers to talk to a friend.
去街头艺人那里和朋友聊天。
Nice.
好的。
Yeah, to talk to my friend.
是的，和我的朋友说话。
Tracy Roland Great.
特雷西·罗兰 太棒了。
We were just wondering why the parking authority is parking illegally.
我们只是想知道停车管理局为什么非法停车。
I didn't do nothing wrong.
我没有做错什么。
Kathy Mallow Oh, you don't think that's wrong to have your vehicle parked illegally like that?
凯西·马洛 哦，你不认为你的车这样违章停放是错误的吗？
Not at all.
一点也不。
It's fine.
没关系。
Kathy Mallow Your vehicle is fine?
凯西·马洛 你的车还好吗？
Your vehicle is into the pedestrian crosswalk, and your vehicle--
您的车辆驶入人行横道，并且您的车辆——
No, it's not.
不，不是。
No, it's not.
不，不是。
If you go over there and look, you're going to see it's not in the pedestrian crosswalk.
如果你过去看看，你会发现它不在人行横道上。
It's fine, though.
不过没关系。
Is it blocking the crosswalk, though?
但它会挡住人行横道吗？
You think so.
你这么认为。
So go walk right over there and I bet you won't get [UNINTELLIGIBLE].
所以直接走到那边，我打赌你不会得到[无法理解]。
OK, thanks a lot.
好的，非常感谢。
Thanks a lot for taking on really conscientious responsible behavior.
非常感谢您采取真正认真负责的行为。
I really like paying your salary.
我真的很喜欢支付你的薪水。
You're very sarcastic, ma'am.
女士，你真是太讽刺了。
Kathy Mallow I really like paying your salary.
凯西·马洛 我真的很喜欢支付你的薪水。
You really have problems with yourself.
你自己确实有问题。
Get a life.
获得生活。
No, I think you have problems taking responsibility.
不，我认为你在承担责任方面有问题。
Get a life.
获得生活。
Ira Glass I hope you could hear that last part.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）我希望你能听到最后一部分。
After she says, I really like paying your salary, he says, get a life.
当她说“我真的很喜欢付你的薪水”后，他说“好好生活吧”。
See?
看？
He completely denied that he was parked illegally.
他完全否认自己违章停车。
Imagine that--
想象一下——
Well, you know-- Kathy Mallow --over and over and over again.
好吧，你知道——凯西·马洛——一遍又一遍。
And then, that is the same thing that I get when I've addressed it before-- get a life.
然后，这与我之前解决这个问题时得到的结果是一样的——获得生活。
Like somehow, if you notice this sort of thing and you want the rules to be enforced correctly, you're somehow supposed to get a life.
不知何故，如果你注意到这种事情并且你希望规则得到正确执行，你就应该以某种方式获得生命。
And you're just not supposed to question the sense of entitlement.
而且你不应该质疑权利感。
Yes, it's just parking.
是的，这只是停车位。
But what kills Kathy is how blatant it is.
但真正让凯西丧命的是它的明目张胆。
Right there on the street, this daily proof that everybody does not have to obey the same rules.
就在街上，这每天都证明每个人不必遵守相同的规则。
Who do they think they are?
他们以为自己是谁？
Well, today on our radio show, it is an unfair world.
好吧，今天在我们的广播节目中，这是一个不公平的世界。
And sometimes it makes you crazy, the things that people above you get away with.
有时，你的上级却能侥幸逃脱，这会让你发疯。
And then, something happens like, for example, a black man becomes president of the United States, just to choose an example at random.
然后，就会发生一些事情，例如，一个黑人成为美国总统，只是随机选择一个例子。
And really, you would have to have a heart of stone not to feel hopeful.
事实上，只有铁石心肠才能不抱有希望。
And so today, in this historic week, we have stories of insiders and outsiders, the haves and the have nots, and people staring across the divide between the two groups, trying to figure it out.
因此，今天，在这个历史性的一周，我们看到了内部人士和外部人士、富人和穷人的故事，以及人们盯着这两个群体之间的鸿沟，试图找出答案。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life , distributed by Public Radio International.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Our show today in three acts.
我们今天的演出分三幕。
Act One, Hard Times, we have voices from our country's past when lots of haves got turned into have nots.
第一幕，艰难时期，我们听到了来自我们国家过去的声音，当时许多富人变成了穷人。
Act Two, we talk a little about Tuesday.
第二幕，我们谈论一下星期二。
Act Three, Putting the Cart Before the Porsche.
第三幕，把购物车放在保时捷之前。
In that act, reflections on a life at the top from a teenager who was there.
在那一幕中，一位在场的青少年对巅峰生活的反思。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Hard Times.
第一幕，艰难时期。
A week ago, Studs Terkel died.
一周前，斯塔兹·特克尔去世。
He was 96.
他96岁了。
Oral histories were around before Studs started doing them, but he pretty much redefined them and did them so amazingly well that anybody who comes after can't help but be influenced.
在斯塔兹开始创作口述历史之前，口述历史就已经存在了，但他几乎重新定义了它们，并且做得非常好，以至于任何后来者都会情不自禁地受到影响。
When Studs did an interview, it was history, and it was character study, and it was dramatic storytelling, and it was entertainment all rolled up into one.
当 Studs 接受采访时，它是历史，是人物研究，是戏剧性的故事讲述，也是娱乐，一切都融为一体。
We all stand in his shadow, all of us who pull out tape recorders and talk to people who aren't famous or powerful or newsworthy in the normal sense.
我们都站在他的阴影下，我们所有人都拿出录音机，与那些通常意义上不知名、不有权势、不具有新闻价值的人交谈。
Around the country, if you've heard of Studs, it's because of his books-- Division Street, The Good War, Working.
在全国各地，如果您听说过 Studs，那是因为他的书——《Division Street》、《The Good War》、《Working》。
But he was a radio man.
但他是一名广播员。
In Chicago, you could hear him on the radio for most of his career at WMFT, and in the last decade, at the radio station our show comes from, WBEZ.
在芝加哥，您可以在 WMFT 职业生涯的大部分时间里在广播中听到他的声音，而在过去的十年里，我们的节目来自 WBEZ 广播电台。
Today, in remembrance, we bring you some of the interviews that he collected for his book about the Great Depression, Hard Times.
今天，为了纪念，我们为您带来了他为他的有关大萧条，艰难时期的书收集的一些采访。
This historic week, when another Chicagoan made some news, it has really been a pleasure to listen to these voices from the past talking about the sweep of change that this country has gone through.
在这个历史性的一周，当另一位芝加哥人发布了一些新闻时，我们真的很高兴听到这些来自过去的声音谈论这个国家所经历的巨大变革。
These were first broadcast as a 12-part series back in 1971, though Studs had been gathering these interviews for years, preparing for his book.
这些内容早在 1971 年就以 12 集系列的形式首次播出，尽管 Studs 多年来一直在收集这些采访内容，为他的书做准备。
Anyway, here he is.
无论如何，他来了。
In recalling an epoch some 30, 40 years ago, my colleagues experienced pain in some instances, acceleration in others.
回顾三十、四十年前的一个时代，我的同事们经历了一些痛苦，另一些加速。
And often, it was a fusing of both.
通常，这是两者的融合。
A hesitancy at first was followed by a flow of memories, long ago hurts and small triumphs, honors and humiliations.
起初的犹豫之后，随之而来的是记忆的流动，很久以前的伤害和小小的胜利、荣誉和耻辱。
And there was an occasional laughter, too.
偶尔还传来一阵笑声。
Are they telling the truth, these oral historians?
这些口述历史学家说的是实话吗？
The question is as academic as the day Pontius Pilate asked it, his philosophy not quite washing out his guilt.
这个问题就像本丢·彼拉多问这个问题的那天一样学术性，他的哲学并没有完全洗清他的罪恶感。
It's the question Pa Joad asked of Preacher Casy, when the ragged man, in a tranchant camp poured out his California agony in the novel Grapes of Wrath.
这是帕·乔德在小说《愤怒的葡萄》中向传教士凯西提出的问题，当时这个衣衫褴褛的人在一个特兰特营地里倾诉了他在加州的痛苦。
Pa said, "Suppose he's telling the truth, that fellow?" The preacher answered, "He's telling the truth, all right.
爸爸说：“那家伙，假设他说的是真话呢？”牧师回答说：“他说的是实话，好吧。
The truth for him.
对他来说真相。
He wasn't making nothing up." "How about us?" Tom Joad demanded.
他没有编造任何事情。” “那我们呢？”汤姆·乔德问道。
"Is that the truth for us?" "I don't know," said Casy.
“这对我们来说是事实吗？” “我不知道，”凯西说。
"I suspect the preacher spoke for those whose voices you hear, in their rememberings are their truths.
“我怀疑传教士是为那些你听到的人说话的，他们的记忆中就是他们的真理。
The precise fact, or the precise date, is of small consequence.
确切的事实或确切的日期并不重要。
It's simply an attempt to get the story of a holocaust, known as the Great Depression, from an improvised battalion of survivors."
这只是试图从一个临时组成的幸存者营中了解一场被称为大萧条的大屠杀的故事。”
Oh, this suggests struggle.
哦，这暗示着斗争。
This suggests struggle for survival, survival just to be warm.
这暗示着为生存而奋斗，生存只是为了取暖。
To have bread and Karo syrup was a treat.
吃面包和卡罗糖浆真是一种享受。
Anything you brought in the house that was food, [SPEAKING CROATIAN] did it cost a lot?
你带进屋里的任何东西都是食物，[说克罗地亚语] 花费很多吗？
Was that a Croatian phrase?
这是克罗地亚语吗？
Jane Yoder Yes.
简·约德 是的。
No matter what you brought in, if you brought bread and eggs and Karo syrup.
无论你带什么进来，只要你带了面包、鸡蛋和卡罗糖浆。
I don't remember so much my going to the store and buying food.
我不太记得去商店买食物的事了。
I must have been terribly proud, and felt I can't do it.
我一定非常自豪，觉得自己做不到。
But how early we all stayed away from going to the store.
但我们都多久没有去商店了。
Because we sensed that my father didn't have the money.
因为我们感觉到我父亲没有钱。
And so we stayed hungry.
所以我们一直保持饥饿状态。
And then I can think of when the WPA, the Workman's Project Administration, came in.
然后我就想到了 WPA（工人项目管理局）何时介入。
And my father immediately got employed on the WPA.
我父亲立即在 WPA 找到了工作。
And I remember how stark it was for me to come into training and have girls-- one of them, who lived across the hall from me at Patton Memorial, whose father was a doctor in Michigan-- I can think of people and how it struck me of their impression of the WPA.
我还记得参加训练和养育女孩对我来说是多么严峻——其中一个就住在巴顿纪念馆大厅对面，她的父亲是密歇根州的一名医生——我能想到人们以及他们对 WPA 的印象是如何给我留下深刻印象的。
Because before I could ever say my father was employed on the WPA, discussions and bull sessions in our rooms immediately was, these lazy people that don't do a thing, the shovel-leaners.
因为在我还没来得及说我父亲受雇于 WPA 之前，我们房间里的讨论和公牛会议立即就变成了这些懒惰的人，什么都不做，铲子倾斜者。
And I'd just sit there and listen to them.
我只是坐在那里听他们说话。
And then I'd look around, and I realized, sure, your father's a doctor in St. Joe, Michigan.
然后我环顾四周，我意识到，当然，你父亲是密歇根州圣乔的一名医生。
Well, how nice.
嗯，多好啊。
In my family, there was no respectable employment.
在我的家庭里，没有什么体面的工作。
There was no-- until I thought, you don't know what it's like.
没有——直到我想，你不知道那是什么样子。
My father had a restaurant.
我父亲有一家餐馆。
Studs Terkel This was where?
Studs Terkel 这是哪里？
This was in Arkansas.
这是在阿肯色州。
And when I knew the Depression had really hit with full impact, the electric lights went off.
当我知道大萧条确实带来了全面的影响时，电灯就灭了。
Parents could no longer pay the $1 electric bill, which had amounted to, maybe for a month or two months, $1.80 at the most.
父母无法再支付 1 美元的电费，一两个月最多可达 1.80 美元。
And kerosene lamps went up in the home and in the business.
家里和公司里都点上了煤油灯。
Over each individual table in the restaurant, there was a kerosene lamp.
餐厅里的每张桌子上都放着一盏煤油灯。
This did something to me.
这对我做了一些事情。
Because it let me know that my father wasn't the greatest cat in the world, and I had always thought he was, you know.
因为它让我知道我的父亲不是世界上最伟大的猫，而我一直认为他是，你知道的。
But it also let me know that he could adjust to any situation.
但这也让我知道他可以适应任何情况。
And he taught us how to adjust to situations.
他教我们如何适应情况。
Now, we were fortunate compared to the situation of other people.
现在，与其他人的情况相比，我们是幸运的。
We always had food.
我们总是有食物。
There was never any money, but who needed money then?
从来没有钱，但那时谁需要钱呢？
The restaurant went right through the Depression.
这家餐厅正好经历了大萧条。
We were selling hamburgers for a nickel, Studs.
我们以五分钱的价格出售汉堡包，Studs。
My father would have a meal ticket.
我父亲会有一张餐券。
You could get a full-course meal-- that is, meat and three vegetables-- for $0.25.
你可以花 0.25 美元吃一顿全餐，即肉和三种蔬菜。
I remember distinctly feeding little snotty-nosed white kids.
我清楚地记得喂养流鼻涕的白人小孩子。
My father and mother just did this out of the goodness of their heart.
我的父亲和母亲这样做只是出于他们的善心。
I guess there must have been 10 white families within 50 feet of us.
我猜想我们周围 50 英尺范围内肯定有 10 个白人家庭。
And I remember feeding them.
我记得喂它们。
I remember my parents feeding little black kids.
我记得我的父母喂养黑人小孩子。
I remember when the times got so hard, the sheriff pawned a radio to my father for $10.
我记得当日子变得如此艰难时，治安官以 10 美元的价格向我父亲典当了一台收音机。
This was a white sheriff, a white official, who had to come to a black man to get $10.
这是一个白人警长，一个白人官员，他必须去找黑人才能拿到10美元。
The reason he needed the $10, he had some people out of town.
他之所以需要这 10 美元，是因为他有人出城了。
He wanted to bring them there to eat some chicken.
他想带他们去那里吃鸡肉。
Do you think a Depression of that intensity could come again?
您认为如此严重的大萧条会再次出现吗？
I think it could come again.
我想它可能会再来一次。
But I think it would behoove the federal government not to let it come.
但我认为联邦政府应该不让它发生。
Because you're dealing with a different breed of cattle now.
因为你现在面对的是不同品种的牛。
See, now, if they really want anarchy, let a depression come now.
现在看，如果他们真的想要无政府状态，那就让萧条来吧。
My 16-year-old son is not the person I was when I was 16.
我16岁的儿子已经不是我16岁时的样子了。
He's an adult at 16.
16岁就成年了。
He's working in a department store and going to school, too.
他在一家百货公司工作，也在上学。
So he has manly responsibilities.
所以他有男子气概的责任。
And he doesn't want any [BLEEP].
他不想要任何[BLEEP]。
These kids now do not want it.
这些孩子现在不想要它。
When I was 16, I wasn't afraid to die.
当我16岁的时候，我并不害怕死亡。
But the key at 16 now is not afraid to kill.
但现在16岁的关键是不怕杀人。
Jerome Zerbe From 1935 to 1939, I worked at El Morocco.
Jerome Zerbe 从 1935 年到 1939 年，我在摩洛哥工作。
And I invented a thing which has become a pain in the neck to most people.
我发明了一个让大多数人都头疼的东西。
I took photographs of the fashionable people and sent them to the papers.
我给时尚人士拍了照片并发送给报纸。
These were the women who dressed the best.
这些都是穿得最好的女人。
These were the women who had the most beautiful of all jewels.
这些女人拥有最美丽的珠宝。
These were the dream people that we all looked up to and hoped that we, or our friends, could sometimes know and be like.
这些是我们都尊敬的梦想中的人，并希望我们或我们的朋友有时能够认识并成为他们的榜样。
Do you ever talk about what happened outside?
你有没有谈论过外面发生的事情？
There were breadlines.
有人排队领取面包。
There were various other things occurring, not too nice, you know.
还有其他各种各样的事情发生，你知道，不太好。
As I remember, I don't think they ever mentioned them.
据我所知，我认为他们从未提到过它们。
Never, socially.
从来没有，社交上。
Because-- I've always had a theory.
因为——我一直有一个理论。
When you're out with friends, out socially, everything must be charming.
当你和朋友出去社交时，一切都必须是迷人的。
And you don't allow the ugly.
而且你不允许丑陋。
We don't even discuss the Negro question.
我们甚至不讨论黑人问题。
What was happening around the city?
城市周围发生了什么？
Do you remember the people talk of breadlines, or Hoovervilles, or apple sellers?
你还记得人们谈论过排队领面包、胡佛村或苹果小贩吗？
No, there were none of those.
不，这些都没有。
Studs Terkel No.
螺柱 Terkel No.
Not in New York.
不在纽约。
Never, never.
从来没有，从来没有。
There were a few beggars.
那里有几个乞丐。
New deal.
新政。
Jerome Zerbe New deal?
杰罗姆·泽布 新政？
Well, that was an invention of Franklin Roosevelt's that meant absolutely nothing except higher taxation.
嗯，这是富兰克林·罗斯福的一项发明，除了提高税收之外毫无任何意义。
And that he did.
他确实做到了。
Well, I lived off friends.
嗯，我靠朋友过活。
I had a very good friend who cashed in all his Bonus Bonds to pay his rent.
我有一个非常好的朋友，他兑现了所有的红利债券来支付房租。
And he had an extra bed, so he let me sleep there.
而且他还有一张加床，所以他让我睡在那里。
I finally went on relief, which was an experience I wouldn't want anybody else ever to go through in New York City.
我终于得到了缓解，这是我不希望任何人在纽约经历的经历。
A single man going on relief, at that particular time, was just-- well, it comes as close to crucifixion as you can do it, without the actual mechanical details.
在那个特定的时间，一个正在救济的单身男子只是——好吧，这已经是你能做到的最接近受难的事情了，但没有实际的机械细节。
Well, it was '35 or '36, in that area.
嗯，那个地区是 35 或 36 年。
It was after I lost my job with the publishing house.
那是在我失去出版社的工作之后。
And I needed whatever money I could get anywhere.
我需要任何我能从任何地方弄到的钱。
The interview was, to me, utterly ridiculous and mortifying.
对我来说，这次采访完全是荒谬和令人羞愧的。
But it was questions like, well, what have you been living on?
但问题是，你靠什么生活？
Well, I borrowed some money.
嗯，我借了一些钱。
Who'd you borrow it from?
你跟谁借的？
Friends.
朋友们。
Who are your friends?
谁是你的朋友？
Where have you been living?
你一直住在哪里？
I've been living with friends.
我一直和朋友住在一起。
Well, I wish I could recall the whole thing.
好吧，我希望我能回忆起整件事。
This went on for a half an hour or something.
这种情况持续了半个小时左右。
I finally turned to the young man who was interviewing me and said, I've been talking about friends.
我最后转向采访我的年轻人说，我一直在谈论朋友。
Do you happen to know what a friend is?
你知道什么是朋友吗？
And a little after that, I got my-- at least the interview was over.
过了一会儿，我得到了——至少采访结束了。
I did get certified some time later.
一段时间后我确实获得了认证。
I've been trying to remember how much they paid.
我一直在努力记住他们付了多少钱。
It seems to me it was $9 a month.
在我看来，每月是 9 美元。
$9 a month.
每月 9 美元。
But the thing you remember is this humiliating experience.
但你记得的就是这段屈辱的经历。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Well, I suppose there's some reason in the back of it.
嗯，我想这背后有一些原因。
I'm a single man who was white.
我是一个单身白人。
Why didn't I have a family?
为什么我没有家庭？
And I had sent my family West to Ohio, where they could live simply.
我把我的家人送到了西部的俄亥俄州，在那里他们可以过着简单的生活。
But they asked, then, all these personal questions.
但他们随后提出了所有这些个人问题。
It was-- well, I don't know.
这是——好吧，我不知道。
I came away feeling like I hadn't any business even living any longer.
离开时我感觉自己已经没有活下去的必要了。
I was imposing on somebody's great society, or something like that.
我是在强加于某人的伟大社会，或者类似的东西。
And now we come to the voice of Elsa Ponselle, who recalls her young womanhood as a schoolteacher during the Depression.
现在我们来听艾尔莎·庞塞尔的声音，她回忆起自己在大萧条时期担任教师的年轻女性时代。
My nephew, not so long ago, said to me-- in regards to the Negro problem-- ah, if they want a job, they can get it.
我的侄子不久前对我说——关于黑人问题——啊，如果他们想要一份工作，他们就能得到它。
I said, if you ever say that again, I don't care if you are damn near 40 years old, I'll slap you.
我说，你再这么说，我管你是不是快四十岁了，我就打你一巴掌。
I said, your father couldn't get a job during the Depression.
我说，你父亲在大萧条时期找不到工作。
And he wanted one.
他想要一个。
Well, of course he's forgotten.
嗯，他当然忘记了。
I mean, he never even knew.
我的意思是，他根本不知道。
But I mean, I felt all that old rage coming back.
但我的意思是，我感觉到以前的愤怒又回来了。
I mean, like, when I was in my 20s.
我的意思是，就像我20多岁的时候一样。
And somebody said, oh, if they want a job.
有人说，哦，如果他们想要一份工作。
If they really want to work, they can get it.
如果他们真的想工作，他们就能得到它。
And so the Depression was a way of life to me.
所以大萧条对我来说是一种生活方式。
I mean, consider that from the time I was 20 to the time I was 30, I lived in a Depression-oriented universe.
我的意思是，考虑一下从我 20 岁到 30 岁，我生活在一个以抑郁症为导向的宇宙中。
And I thought, unconsciously, that that was the way it was going to be forever and ever and ever, that people would have trouble getting jobs, that they would be living in fear of losing their jobs.
我无意识地认为，这将是永远、永远、永远的样子，人们将很难找到工作，他们将生活在失去工作的恐惧之中。
You know, that fear of losing their jobs.
你知道，他们害怕失去工作。
During the Depression, when you were poor, you weren't looking around and seeing, here is a society in which everybody has something except me.
在大萧条时期，当你很穷的时候，你不会环顾四周并看到，在这个社会里，除了我之外，每个人都拥有一些东西。
And by God, I'm going to get some.
上帝啊，我一定会得到一些。
I mean, I can't blame people for feeling-- they read the papers and they watch television and everybody is so rich and has everything-- why not me?
我的意思是，我不能责怪人们的感觉——他们读报纸，看电视，每个人都很富有，拥有一切——为什么不是我呢？
You see, that was the difference in the Depression.
你看，这就是大萧条时期的差异。
It wasn't only not me, but it was not you, and it was not my friends, and everybody else.
不仅不是我，也不是你，也不是我的朋友，也不是其他所有人。
And the rich had the instinct of self-preservation.
富人有自我保护的本能。
They didn't throw the fact that they had money around, if you'll remember.
如果你还记得的话，他们并没有抛出他们有钱的事实。
We heard about how they didn't have the fancy debutante parties, because after all, it was not the thing to do.
我们听说他们没有举办华丽的初次亮相派对，因为毕竟这不是该做的事情。
Indeed.
的确。
They were so God damn scared they'd have a revolution.
他们非常害怕会发生一场革命。
They damn near did, too, didn't they?
他们也差点就这么做了，不是吗？
You felt that?
你感觉到了吗？
You felt they were scared?
你觉得他们害怕吗？
Oh, were they scared!
哦，他们害怕了吗！
What's more scary than $1 million?
还有什么比100万美元更可怕的呢？
Which you can send over to the Swiss banks, and they're still sending it over to the Swiss banks.
你可以将其发送到瑞士银行，他们仍然将其发送到瑞士银行。
Well, this leads to several questions.
嗯，这引出了几个问题。
Then, the question of status did not make itself felt, then?
那么，地位问题并没有被感觉到，那么？
Because your neighbor, everybody you knew was like you.
因为你的邻居，你认识的每个人都像你一样。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Your neighbor was losing his house.
你的邻居失去了他的房子。
Somebody else was having their furniture taken away.
其他人的家具被拿走了。
And everybody was in the same boat.
每个人都在同一条船上。
And in fact, I think people who were not in that boat were a little apologetic because they weren't suffering.
事实上，我认为那些不在船上的人会有点歉意，因为他们没有受苦。
And then, of course, the war came.
然后，当然，战争来了。
And the Depression was cured by a war, which was one hell of a note.
一场战争治愈了大萧条，这是一件了不起的事情。
And all these kids that I had had, who were growing up, disappeared.
我所有这些正在长大的孩子都消失了。
And it was very, very quiet.
而且非常非常安静。
The young were gone.
年轻人都走了。
And some of them came back, and some of them didn't.
他们中有的人回来了，有的人没有回来。
In Jefferson county, about 4/5 of the people were on relief.
在杰斐逊县，大约 4/5 的人正在接受救济。
And there was no government relief.
而且政府也没有提供任何救济。
So this meant that they had just this $2.50 a week that the Red Cross provided them, and what they could beg, borrow, or steal.
因此，这意味着他们每周只能得到红十字会提供的 2.5 美元，以及他们可以乞讨、借用或偷窃的东西。
But the thing that also struck me as being so terrible was that, just the way my mother and father had this terrible feeling of shame and guilt, and there was that failure that lost all their property, these people had the same feeling of shame and guilt when they lost their jobs.
但同样让我感到如此可怕的是，就像我的父母有这种可怕的羞耻和内疚感，以及失去所有财产的失败一样，这些人在失业时也有同样的羞耻和内疚感。
And they didn't blame the Republic Steel Company or the United States Steel.
他们并没有责怪共和钢铁公司或美国钢铁公司。
They didn't blame the capitalist system.
他们没有指责资本主义制度。
They just blamed themselves.
他们只是责怪自己。
And they thought-- well, they would say in the most apologetic way, well, you know if we hadn't bought that radio, if we hadn't bought that old secondhand car, if we'd saved our money and-- you know, they really blamed themselves.
他们想——好吧，他们会以最抱歉的方式说，好吧，你知道，如果我们没有买那台收音机，如果我们没有买那辆旧二手车，如果我们省了钱——你知道，他们真的很自责。
And it was this terrible feeling they had of shame that they were on relief.
正是这种可怕的羞耻感让他们松了口气。
We just drifted back and forth.
我们只是来回漂流。
He was discontented everywhere.
他处处不满。
And then, we went back to Oklahoma the last time in January of 1929.
然后，我们最后一次回到俄克拉荷马州是在 1929 年 1 月。
And I had three children born there.
我在那里出生了三个孩子。
You remember situations of how they got the families around there, too?
你还记得他们是如何把家人带到那里的吗？
Oh, yes.
哦是的。
I remember several families there that lost their homes and everything they had-- their bank account and everything they had-- and had to leave there in covered wagons, for instance.
我记得那里有几个家庭失去了家园和他们拥有的一切——他们的银行账户和他们拥有的一切——例如，不得不乘坐有篷马车离开那里。
Covered wagons?
有盖货车？
Mary Owsley Covered wagons, absolutely they went out of there in covered wagons, in the '30s.
玛丽·奥斯利（Mary Owsley） 有盖马车，绝对是他们在 30 年代开着有盖马车离开那里的。
Do you remember people taking part in demonstrations of any sort?
您还记得人们参加过任何形式的示威活动吗？
Your husband did?
你丈夫做的吗？
Mary Owsley Well, indeed he did.
玛丽·奥斯利 嗯，他确实做到了。
He marched with that group that went to Washington.
他与前往华盛顿的那支队伍一起游行。
Let's see, what year was that, Peggy?
让我们看看，那是哪一年，佩吉？
The Bonus Marchers?
奖金游行者？
Mary Owsley Oh, yes, sir.
玛丽·奥斯利 噢，是的，先生。
Oh, yes, sir.
哦，是的，先生。
He was a hellraiser.
他是一个地狱使者。
You know he was in World War I.
你知道他参加过第一次世界大战。
he was a machine gunner in World War I.
他在第一次世界大战中是一名机枪手。
And he felt like that the men that fought in the war should have their bonus, especially at a time like it was then-- and then, without employment and with families to support.
他觉得那些参加战争的人应该得到他们的奖金，尤其是在当时这样的时候——然后，没有工作，还要养家糊口。
Mama, don't you remember when Daddy used to say, the God damn Germans gassed me.
妈妈，你不记得爸爸常说，该死的德国人用毒气杀了我。
And I come home, and my own God damn government gassed me.
当我回到家时，我自己的该死的政府用毒气毒死了我。
Yes, he said that, too.
是的，他也这么说。
Studs Terkel Oh--
螺柱特克尔哦——
He was a machine gunner.
他是一名机枪手。
And the God damn Germans gassed him in Germany.
该死的德国人在德国用毒气毒死了他。
And he came home, and his own government stooges gassed him and run him off the country up there with water hose, half-drowned him.
当他回到家时，他自己的政府傀儡用毒气毒死了他，并用水管把他从乡下赶了出去，把他淹死了。
He was very bitter.
他心里很苦。
Because he was an intelligent man.
因为他是一个聪明人。
And he couldn't see why, as wealthy a country as this is-- that there was any sense in so many people practically starving to death, and living in such dire poverty, when so much of it was-- wheat and everything else-- was being poured in the ocean.
他不明白为什么，作为一个如此富裕的国家，这么多人几乎饿死，生活在如此赤贫中，而其中的大部分——小麦和其他一切——却被倒入海洋，这有什么意义。
And many, many things that were happening, that was taking food out of people's mouths and homes.
很多很多事情正在发生，人们的嘴里和家里的食物都被夺走了。
He was very bitter.
他心里很苦。
Peggy, when were you aware of the Depression?
佩吉，你什么时候意识到大萧条的？
I believe, when I first started noticing the difference was when we'd come home from school in the evening, my mother'd send us to the soup line.
我相信，当我第一次开始注意到差异时，我们晚上放学回家时，我妈妈会把我们送到喝汤的地方。
And we were never allowed to cuss.
我们从来不被允许骂人。
But after we'd been going to the soup line for about a month, we'd go down there, and if you happened to be one of the first ones in line, you didn't get anything but water that was on top.
但是，在我们去排队喝汤大约一个月之后，我们就会去那里，如果你碰巧是第一批排队的人之一，你除了上面的水之外什么也得不到。
So we'd ask the guy that was ladling out the soup into the buckets-- everybody had to bring their own bucket to get the soup.
所以我们会问那个把汤舀到桶里的人——每个人都必须带自己的桶来喝汤。
And he'd dip the greasy, watery stuff off the top.
他会把上面油腻的、水状的东西沾掉。
And so we'd ask him to please dip down so we could get some meat and potatoes from the bottom of the kettle.
所以我们请他浸入水中，以便我们可以从水壶底部取出一些肉和土豆。
And he wouldn't do it.
但他不会这么做。
So then we learned a cuss, and we'd say dip down, God damn it!
然后我们就学会了骂人，我们会说“趴下”，该死的！
And then we'd go across the street.
然后我们就过马路。
And one place had bread, large loaves of bread.
其中一个地方有面包，大块的面包。
And then, down the road, just a little piece, was a big shed.
然后，沿着路走一小段，就有一个大棚子。
And they gave milk.
他们还给了牛奶。
And my sister and me would take two buckets each.
我和姐姐每人会拿两桶。
And we'd bring one back full of soup, and one back full of milk, and two loaves of bread each.
我们会带一箱汤回来，一箱牛奶回来，每人带两条面包。
And that's what we lived on for the longest time.
这就是我们最长的生活。
And I can remember-- one time, we didn't have anything to eat.
我记得——有一次，我们没有东西吃。
And I don't know if this was before the soup line.
我不知道这是否是在汤线之前。
But I remember the only thing in the house to eat was mustard.
但我记得家里唯一吃的就是芥末。
And my sister and me put so much mustard on biscuits that we got sick.
我和姐姐在饼干上放了太多芥末，结果我们生病了。
And we can't stand mustard right today.
今天我们不能忍受芥末。
You didn't feel at that time-- you and your little friends, your young friends-- a sense of shame?
你当时——你和你的小朋友、你的小伙伴们——没有感到羞耻吗？
No. I remember it was fun.
不，我记得那很有趣。
It was fun going to the soup line, because we all went down the road, and we laughed, and we played.
去排队喝汤很有趣，因为我们都沿着路走，我们笑，我们玩。
The only thing that we felt was we were hungry, and we were going to get food.
我们唯一感到的是我们饿了，我们要去买食物。
And nobody made us feel ashamed.
没有人让我们感到羞耻。
There just wasn't any of that.
根本就没有这些。
Back then, I'm not sure how the rich felt.
那时，我不知道富人的感受如何。
I think the rich were as contemptuous of the poor then as they are now.
我认为当时的富人对穷人的蔑视和现在一样。
But at least among the people that I knew and came in contact with, we all had a sense of understanding that it wasn't our fault, that it was something that had happened to the machinery.
但至少在我认识和接触过的人中，我们都有一种理解，这不是我们的错，这是机器发生的事情。
And in fact, most people blamed Hoover.
事实上，大多数人都指责胡佛。
I mean, they'd cuss him up one side and down the other-- it was all his fault.
我的意思是，他们会一边骂他一边骂他——这都是他的错。
Well, I'm not saying he's blameless, but I'm not saying either that it was all his fault.
好吧，我并不是说他无可指责，但我也不是说这都是他的错。
Because our system doesn't run just by one man, and it doesn't fall just by one man either.
因为我们的系统不是由一个人来运行的，也不是由一个人来运作的。
Sixth grade.
六年级。
Studs Terkel You had sixth grade, and then you went to work?
Studs Terkel 你读了六年级，然后就去工作了？
Yeah.
是的。
Studs Terkel Then what did you do after sixth grade?
Studs Terkel 那么六年级之后你做了什么？
You got married at 15.
你15岁就结婚了。
Yes.
是的。
Well, my husband and me start traveling around.
好吧，我和丈夫开始四处旅行。
That was just kind of our background.
这就是我们的背景。
And we just kind of continued it.
我们只是继续这样做。
We went down in the valley of Texas, where it's very beautiful.
我们去了德克萨斯州的山谷，那里非常美丽。
We were migrant workers down there.
我们是那里的农民工。
We picked oranges and grapefruits and lemons and limes in the Rio Grande Valley.
我们在里奥格兰德河谷采摘了橙子、葡萄柚、柠檬和酸橙。
It's really a good life if you're poor and you manage to move around.
如果你很穷并且能够四处走动，那真是一种美好的生活。
Well, how did you and your husband get around?
嗯，你和你丈夫是怎么相处的？
What means of transportation?
乘坐什么交通工具？
We hitchhiked.
我们搭便车。
I was pregnant when we first started hitchhiking.
我们第一次搭便车时我怀孕了。
And people were really very nice to us.
人们对我们真的很好。
Sometimes they would feed us, and then sometimes we would-- I remember, the one time we slept in a haystack.
有时他们会喂我们，有时我们会——我记得，有一次我们睡在干草堆里。
And the lady of the house came out and found us.
房子的女主人出来找到了我们。
And she says, well, this is really very bad for you, because you're going to have a baby.
她说，好吧，这对你来说真的非常糟糕，因为你要生孩子了。
And she says, you need a lot of milk.
她说，你需要大量的牛奶。
So she took us up to the house.
于是她带我们去了房子。
And she had a lot of rugs hanging on the clothesline.
她的晾衣绳上挂着很多地毯。
She was doing her house cleaning.
她正在打扫房子。
And we told her we'd beat the rugs for her giving us the food.
我们告诉她我们会为她给我们食物而竭尽全力。
And she said, no, she didn't expect that, that she just wanted to feed us.
她说，不，她没想到会这样，她只是想养活我们。
And we said, no, that we couldn't take it unless we worked for it.
我们说，不，除非我们为之努力，否则我们无法接受它。
So she let us beat her rugs.
所以她让我们敲打她的地毯。
And I think she had a million rugs.
我想她有一百万块地毯。
And we cleaned them.
我们清理了它们。
And then we went in.
然后我们进去了。
And she had a beautiful table, just all full of all kind of food and milk.
她有一张漂亮的桌子，上面摆满了各种各样的食物和牛奶。
And then when we left, she filled a gallon bucket full of milk.
然后当我们离开时，她装满了一加仑牛奶。
And we took it with us.
我们把它带走了。
And you don't find that now.
而你现在找不到了。
I think maybe if you did that now, you'd get arrested.
我想也许如果你现在这样做，你就会被捕。
I think somebody'd call the police.
我想有人会报警。
I think maybe the atmosphere since the end of the second war, because all kind of propaganda has been going on.
我想也许是自第二次世界大战结束以来的气氛，因为各种宣传一直在进行。
It just seems like the minute the war ended, the propaganda started-- and making people hate each other, not just hate Russians and Chinese and Germans.
战争似乎一结束，宣传就开始了——让人们互相仇恨，而不仅仅是仇恨俄罗斯人、中国人和德国人。
It was to make us hate each other, I think.
我想这是为了让我们互相憎恨。
I know one thing that people have to get over-- is they have to quit hating black people.
我知道人们必须克服的一件事是他们必须停止仇恨黑人。
That's the first thing.
这是第一件事。
Because you always see yourself as something you're not.
因为你总是把自己看作不是你的东西。
You see yourself as better than other human beings.
你认为自己比其他人更好。
As long as you can hate black people, and as long as you can say, I'm better than they are, then there's somebody below you you can kick.
只要你可以恨黑人，只要你可以说，我比他们好，那么你下面的人你就可以踢。
But once you get over that, you see and you begin to understand that you're not any better off than they are.
但一旦你克服了这个问题，你就会发现并开始明白你并不比他们好多少。
In fact, you're worse off because you're believing a lie.
事实上，你的处境会更糟，因为你相信了谎言。
And in that way, they're smarter than we are, because we couldn't see that.
从这个角度来说，他们比我们更聪明，因为我们看不到这一点。
And it was right in front of us.
它就在我们面前。
We'd be out in a cotton field chopping cotton.
我们会在棉田里砍棉花。
And we'd see the black people over in the next field.
我们会在下一个场地看到黑人。
But never once did it occur to me that we had anything in common.
但我从来没有想到我们有什么共同点。
Because they were black and I was white.
因为他们是黑人，我是白人。
And that made it different.
这使得事情变得不同。
You had that feeling of being superior then?
那时你有那种优越感吗？
Oh, yes.
哦是的。
Studs Terkel Your husband did, too?
Studs Terkel 你的丈夫也这么做了？
Yes.
是的。
Studs Terkel Down in Texas, these are Mexican people?
得克萨斯州的 Studs Terkel Down，这些是墨西哥人吗？
Oh, yes.
哦是的。
But I didn't feel any identification with them either.
但我对他们也没有任何认同感。
The men and the women, they were just spics.
男人和女人，他们只是香料。
And they should be sent back to Mexico, because they shouldn't be over here in the first place.
他们应该被送回墨西哥，因为他们一开始就不应该在这里。
That was the way I felt at that time.
这就是我当时的感受。
Now, since then, I found out that that very state, we took away from them in the first place.
现在，从那时起，我发现正是这种状态，我们首先从他们身上夺走了。
So I feel pretty bad about that.
所以我对此感觉很不好。
And then, when did this other insight come to you?
那么，您什么时候想到了这种另一种见解？
Any idea when?
知道什么时候吗？
That feeling you have now.
你现在就有的那种感觉。
I think maybe it started in Montgomery, because we were living there when the bus boycott started.
我想也许是从蒙哥马利开始的，因为抵制公交车开始时我们就住在那里。
They hired a bunch of real tough guys to make the Negroes ride the buses.
他们雇了一群真正的硬汉来让黑人乘坐公共汽车。
And I saw them pick those women up and throw them on the bus.
我看到他们把那些女人抱起来扔到公共汽车上。
And a couple of times, I was on the bus myself.
有几次，我自己也在公交车上。
And they'd wait until the bus stopped at the corner, and they'd throw those women on the bus.
他们会等到公共汽车停在拐角处，然后把那些女人扔到公共汽车上。
And the women'd just stand there.
而女人们只是站在那里。
They wouldn't move.
他们不会动。
And then when the bus got to the next corner, they'd get off and they'd walk.
然后当公共汽车到达下一个拐角时，他们就会下车然后步行。
They would not stay on that bus.
他们不会留在那辆公共汽车上。
And then my husband got in jail in Montgomery.
然后我丈夫在蒙哥马利进了监狱。
And I went down to the jail one day to see him.
有一天我去监狱看他。
And who'd they have out there, but Reverend Martin Luther King down on the sidewalk, beating him up, about 10 guys.
除了马丁·路德·金牧师在人行道上殴打他之外，还有大约 10 个人。
And I felt this was wrong.
我觉得这是错误的。
I don't know why I felt it was wrong.
不知道为什么我就感觉不对劲。
It just bothered me.
这让我很烦恼。
He was just a nigger to me at that point.
那时他对我来说只是一个黑鬼。
But it really bothered me to see a gang beating up on him.
但看到一群人殴打他，我真的很困扰。
And one other thing that I know really touched me was the store where I always went to buy my groceries.
我知道真正触动我的另一件事是我总是去买杂货的商店。
It was a big supermarket.
那是一个很大的超市。
And they had a little, tiny Negro woman.
他们还有一个身材娇小的黑人女人。
She didn't look like she weighed 100 pounds.
她看起来不像有100磅重。
And they had her putting up stock.
他们让她存货。
And this great big white guy came in there and filled the shopping cart full of groceries.
这个白人大个子进来了，把购物车装满了杂货。
And then when he checked them out, she was standing there, dusting the shelves.
然后当他检查它们时，她正站在那里，掸掉架子上的灰尘。
And he says, come here and take these groceries out to my car.
他说，过来，把这些杂货拿到我的车里。
And so she came up there, and she started pushing the cart out the door.
于是她就到了那里，开始将手推车推出门外。
And he went out ahead of her.
他比她先出去了。
And even though she was taking his groceries-- he was a great big able-bodied man-- he let the door slam on her.
尽管她正在拿他的杂货——他是一个体格健壮的大男人——但他还是让门在她身上砰地关上。
He wouldn't even hold the door open for her.
他甚至不会为她开门。
So I went and I held the door open.
于是我就走了，并把门打开。
And even when it was happening, I couldn't hardly believe it was happening.
即使它发生了，我也不敢相信它正在发生。
And then I said to him something about great big he-men.
然后我对他说了一些关于伟大男人的事情。
I don't remember exactly what I said, but it was really nasty, because I felt bad because he did that.
我不记得我到底说了什么，但这真的很令人讨厌，因为我因为他那样做了而感到难过。
It's really hard to talk about at a time like that, because it seems like a different person.
在这种时候真的很难谈论，因为它看起来就像是一个不同的人。
When I remember those times, it's like looking into a world where another person is doing those things.
当我回忆起那些时光时，就像看到另一个人正在做这些事情的世界一样。
And it's just so hard to relate them to myself.
很难将它们与我自己联系起来。
This may sound impossible, but do you know, if there's one thing that started me thinking, it was President Roosevelt's cuff links.
这听起来似乎不可能，但你知道吗，如果有一件事让我开始思考，那就是罗斯福总统的袖扣。
I read in the paper about how many pairs of cuff links he had, and it told that some of them were rubies, and all precious stones.
我在报纸上看到他有多少对袖扣，上面写着其中有一些是红宝石，而且都是宝石。
These were his cuff links.
这是他的袖扣。
And I just wondered, I'll never forget.
我只是想知道，我永远不会忘记。
I was sitting on an old tire out in the front yard.
我坐在前院的一个旧轮胎上。
And we were hungry.
我们很饿。
And I was wondering why it was that one man could have all those cuff links when we couldn't even have enough to eat, when we lived on gravy and biscuits.
我想知道为什么一个人可以拥有那么多袖扣，而我们甚至连饭都吃不饱，靠肉汁和饼干过活。
And I think, maybe, that was my first thought of wondering why.
我想，也许这是我想知道原因的第一个想法。
That's the first thing I remember ever wondering why.
这是我记得的第一件事，就是想知道为什么。
But one thing I did want to say about when my father finally got his bonus-- he bought a secondhand car for us to come back to Kentucky in.
但当我父亲终于拿到奖金时，我确实想说一件事——他买了一辆二手车供我们回到肯塔基州。
And my dad said to us kids, all of you get in the car.
我爸爸对我们孩子们说，你们都上车。
I want to take you and show you something.
我想带你去看一些东西。
And on the way over there, he talked about how rough life had been for us.
在去那里的路上，他谈到我们的生活是多么艰难。
And he said, if you think it's been rough for us, he said, I want you to see people that really had it rough.
他说，如果你认为这对我们来说很艰难，我希望你看到那些真正经历过艰难的人。
This was in Oklahoma City, and he took us to one of the Hoovervilles.
这是在俄克拉荷马城，他带我们去了胡佛村之一。
And that was the most incredible thing.
这是最令人难以置信的事情。
Here were all these people living in old, rusted-out car bodies.
这些人都住在生锈的旧车里。
I mean, that was their home.
我的意思是，那是他们的家。
There were people living in shacks made out of orange crates.
有人住在用橙色板条箱搭建的棚屋里。
One family with a whole lot of kids were living in a piano box.
一个有很多孩子的家庭住在一个钢琴箱里。
And here, this wasn't just a little section.
在这里，这不仅仅是一个小部分。
This was an area maybe 10 miles wide and 10 miles long.
这是一个大约 10 英里宽、10 英里长的区域。
People living in whatever they could jam together.
人们住在任何可以挤在一起的地方。
And when I read Grapes of Wrath , that was like re-living my life, particularly the part in there about where they lived in this government camp.
当我读《愤怒的葡萄》时，就像重新体验了我的生活，尤其是其中关于他们住在政府营地的部分。
Because when we were picking fruit in Texas, we lived in a government place like that, a government-owned place, in Robstown, Texas.
因为当我们在德克萨斯州采摘水果时，我们住在德克萨斯州罗布斯敦那样的政府场所，政府所有的地方。
And they came around and they helped the women make mattresses.
他们过来帮助妇女们制作床垫。
See, we didn't have anything.
你看，我们什么都没有。
And they helped us make-- they showed us how to sew and make dresses.
他们帮助我们制作——他们向我们展示了如何缝纫和制作衣服。
And every Saturday night, we'd have a dance.
每个星期六晚上，我们都会举办舞会。
And when I was reading Grapes of Wrath , this was just like my life.
当我读《愤怒的葡萄》时，这就像我的生活。
And I never was so proud of poor people before as I was after I read that book.
读完那本书后，我从未像以前那样为穷人感到如此自豪。
And just reading that book has made me a better person.
仅仅读那本书就让我成为了一个更好的人。
I think that's the worst thing that our system does to people, is to take away their pride.
我认为我们的制度对人们做的最糟糕的事情就是剥夺他们的自豪感。
And it prevents them from being a human being.
它阻止他们成为人类。
And they're wondering, why the Harlem, and why the Detroit?
他们想知道，为什么是哈林区，为什么是底特律？
And they're talking about troops and law and order.
他们谈论的是军队、法律和秩序。
And you'll get law and order in this country when people are allowed to be decent human beings, and be able to walk in dignity.
当人们被允许成为正派的人并能够有尊严地行走时，这个国家就会有法律和秩序。
Studs Terkel That was A Gathering of Survivors : Voices of the Great American Depression .
Studs Terkel 那是幸存者的聚会：美国大萧条的声音。
The program was produced by Studs Terkel, with Jim Unrath and Lois Baum, of radio station WFMT Chicago.
该节目由 WFMT 芝加哥广播电台的 Studs Terkel 与 Jim Unrath 和 Lois Baum 共同制作。
Coming up, What a Difference an Election Day Makes.
即将到来，选举日会带来多大的不同。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our show, of course, we choose a theme and bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，我们的节目每周都会选择一个主题，并为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today, we have stories of insiders and outsiders, haves and have nots.
今天，我们有内部人士和外部人士、富人和穷人的故事。
And of course, on Tuesday of this past week, an outsider became the biggest inside there is, President of the United States.
当然，在上周二，一位局外人成为了美国总统。
Which brings us to Act Two.
这让我们进入第二幕。
Listening this last week to those old recordings that Studs Terkel made, where people were talking about their view of this country, and of their fellow Americans, and how those views evolved over the decades, I wondered what this election would do, how much it would close the divide between people, particularly between blacks and whites.
上周，听着斯塔兹·特克尔制作的那些旧录音，人们在谈论他们对这个国家和他们的美国同胞的看法，以及这些观点在过去几十年里是如何演变的，我想知道这次选举会产生什么作用，它将在多大程度上缩小人与人之间的分歧，特别是黑人和白人之间的分歧。
And I was especially curious about blacks who had seen this country at its worst, who lived through segregation.
我对那些经历过这个国家最糟糕、经历过种族隔离的黑人特别好奇。
And looking for somebody to talk to about that here on the radio, I eventually got on the phone with Reverend Donald Sharp, who leads a Baptist Church on Chicago's South Side, Faith Tabernacle.
我在广播中寻找可以谈论此事的人，最终与唐纳德·夏普牧师通了电话，他领导着芝加哥南区信仰礼拜堂的浸信会教堂。
And when I called him and asked him what his thoughts were this week, he was already on the same page that I was.
当我打电话给他并询问他这周的想法时，他已经和我达成了共识。
When I asked him about Tuesday, he started immediately talking about things that happened to him back in the '50s, how he's found himself thinking about those things this week, like being taken as a teenager to see the body of Emmett Till, who was a Chicago kid like him, around his age, who was killed while visiting relatives in Mississippi.
当我问他星期二的事时，他立即开始谈论五十年代发生在他身上的事情，本周他如何发现自己在思考这些事情，比如十几岁的时候被带去参观埃米特·蒂尔的尸体，埃米特·蒂尔和他一样是芝加哥孩子，和他年纪相仿，在密西西比州探亲时被杀。
Donald Sharp also had relatives in Mississippi.
唐纳德·夏普在密西西比州也有亲戚。
He told me all kinds of ugly things that happened to him when he was drafted in 1960 and sent to Oklahoma.
他告诉我当他 1960 年被征召入伍并被送到俄克拉荷马州时，发生在他身上的各种丑陋的事情。
How he wasn't served food at a restaurant on the way down, even though he was in uniform.
尽管他穿着制服，但在下山的路上却没有人给他提供食物。
How in Oklahoma, black and white soldiers were sent to separate, but very unequal, USO dances, a nice one for the white soldiers, a USO club that was kind of a dump for the black soldiers.
在俄克拉荷马州，黑人和白人士兵如何被分别送往 USO 舞蹈，但非常不平等，这对白人士兵来说是一个不错的舞蹈，而 USO 俱乐部对黑人士兵来说却是一个垃圾场。
He saw things in Oklahoma he'd never seen in Chicago.
他在俄克拉荷马州看到了在芝加哥从未见过的东西。
And that made him angry.
这让他很生气。
That was-- believe me, believe me, believe me, I wanted to go AWOL.
那是——相信我，相信我，相信我，我想擅离职守。
I felt like, was it really worth it all?
我当时想，这一切真的值得吗？
Was this country really worth dying for?
这个国家真的值得为之献身吗？
I felt as though that I was just a commodity to be used by this country.
我觉得自己只是这个国家所利用的商品。
And my worth to this country has not increased no more than my great-grandfather, who was a slave down in Mississippi.
我对这个国家的价值并没有比我曾祖父（他是密西西比州的一名奴隶）增加更多。
Only thing, I've been permitted to have a little bit more amenities.
唯一的事情是，我被允许拥有更多的便利设施。
So all this is a part of who I am, not being able to eat in the restaurant, or going to a segregated dance.
所以这一切都是我的一部分，不能在餐厅吃饭，也不能参加种族隔离的舞会。
And so this week, when Barack Obama became president, does it make you adjust how you see this country?
那么本周，当巴拉克·奥巴马(Barack Obama)成为总统时，这是否会让您调整对这个国家的看法？
I see it a little bit different, but my guard is not totally down.
我认为情况有些不同，但我并没有完全放松警惕。
I'm being facetious when I say this-- I'm not going to be around, out singing "We Have Overcome." I feel good for him and his family.
当我这么说时，我只是在开玩笑——我不会在外面唱“我们已经克服了”。我对他和他的家人感觉很好。
And I'm hoping-- I'm cautiously optimistic.
我希望——我持谨慎乐观的态度。
I'm happy but, you know--
我很高兴，但是，你知道——
Wait, and what's the but?
等等，但是是什么？
Donald Sharp That's the question.
唐纳德·夏普 这就是问题所在。
The but is my suspicion.
但是是我的怀疑。
See, I still haven't been able to shed my suspicious nature of systemic and institutional racism.
看，我仍然无法摆脱对系统性和制度性种族主义的怀疑本性。
Part of the problem is being black, you're living in these two different worlds, one in which you know you're a permanent citizen of, and the other, you are granted visas, shall I say.
问题的一部分在于作为黑人，你生活在这两个不同的世界中，在一个世界中你知道你是永久公民，而在另一个世界中，你获得了签证，我应该说。
You go back and forth between these worlds.
你在这些世界之间来回穿梭。
And I use the term not in a strict medical sense, but you become schizophrenic in your behavior.
我使用这个词并不是严格的医学意义上的，但你的行为会变得精神分裂。
You're one way over here and you're another way over there.
你在这里是一个方向，在那里你是另一个方向。
And also, at the same time, sometimes you feel like, oh, yeah, things are fine.
而且，与此同时，有时你会觉得，哦，是的，一切都很好。
I'm fine.
我很好。
And other times, you realize, like, oh, no, maybe I'm not fine.
有时，你会意识到，哦，不，也许我不太好。
Exactly.
确切地。
Ira Glass So that feeling of being split, that doesn't end because of one election day.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 因此，这种分裂的感觉并不会因为一个选举日而结束。
No. Goodness gracious, no. Not by any stretch to the imagination.
不，天哪，不。绝非想象所能想象的那样。
And so that's my skepticism.
这就是我的怀疑。
Now, I'm quite certain that my grandchildren see it a little bit different.
现在，我很确定我的孙子们的看法有些不同。
And I hope they would.
我希望他们会的。
They're excited.
他们很兴奋。
They're geeked.
他们很极客。
They're happy.
他们很高兴。
They feel like, boy, it's a new day.
他们感觉，孩子，这是新的一天。
But again, they've not experienced some of the things I've experienced.
但同样，他们没有经历过我经历过的一些事情。
I remember telling my kids, I said, I remember when I would go downtown and we'd change the train in Memphis, I would see two water fountains.
我记得告诉我的孩子们，我说，我记得当我去市中心，我们在孟菲斯换乘火车时，我会看到两个喷泉。
There was a sign that said, one white, one colored.
有一个牌子，上面写着，一种是白色的，一种是彩色的。
And they'd start laughing.
他们会开始大笑。
They'd say, you really saw that?
他们会说，你真的看到了？
That really happened?
那真的发生了吗？
Yes, that really happened.
是的，那确实发生了。
So what I'm saying is that they've never experienced that, so they don't see things in the same prism that I see it.
所以我想说的是，他们从未经历过这种情况，所以他们看事物的角度与我不同。
And so certainly they would be a little bit more excited, shall I say.
所以我应该说，他们肯定会更兴奋一点。
But it's interesting what you're saying, because you're saying that you feel like this is one more step.
但你所说的很有趣，因为你说你觉得这又向前迈出了一步。
But when you talk to your grandkids or the young people in your church, you're saying they feel like, OK, the job's done, pretty much.
但当你和你的孙辈或教会里的年轻人交谈时，你会说他们感觉，好吧，工作已经完成了，差不多了。
There's a little tidying up around the edges, but they say we're way further along.
边缘还有一些整理工作，但他们说我们已经走得更远了。
Oh yeah, they-- oh man, this is it.
哦，是的，他们——天哪，就是这样。
He did it.
他做到了。
And the door is wide open.
门是敞开的。
Now, do you think it's possible that they are more right and you are more wrong?
现在，你认为有可能他们更正确而你更错误吗？
I would hope they're more right, I would hope I'm more wrong, but I don't think so.
我希望他们更正确，我希望我更错误，但我不这么认为。
Reverend Donald Sharp of the Faith Tabernacle Baptist Church in Chicago.
芝加哥信仰帐幕浸信会教堂的牧师唐纳德·夏普。
Obama will change the world, Obama will change the world!
奥巴马将改变世界，奥巴马将改变世界！
Obama!
奥巴马！
Obama!
奥巴马！
These little kids on the West Side of Philadelphia on election day near a polling station.
选举日，这些小孩子在费城西区的一个投票站附近。
They made up the song themselves.
这首歌是他们自己创作的。
Obama!
奥巴马！
Obama!
奥巴马！
Obama!
奥巴马！
Act Three: Putting The Cart Before The Porsche Ira Glass Act Three, Putting the Cart Before the Porsche.
第三幕：将手推车放在保时捷 Ira 玻璃前面 第三幕，将手推车放在保时捷面前。
We end our show about have and have nots with this story about how the other half lives, the rich half, that is.
我们以这个关于另一半（即富有的一半）如何生活的故事来结束我们关于富人和穷人的节目。
This was recorded in front of a small, live audience in a theater in New York City.
这是在纽约市一家剧院在一小群现场观众面前录制的。
We are not going to mention the performer's name.
我们不会提及表演者的名字。
And we're actually going to beep out the name of the town she's from to protect the privacy of her family.
实际上，我们会大声说出她所在城镇的名称，以保护她家人的隐私。
It's a pretty honest story.
这是一个非常诚实的故事。
So my dad has this really annoying phrase that he uses as his blanket statement for everything.
所以我爸爸有一个非常烦人的短语，他用它作为所有事情的总括声明。
And that is, it's all about choices.
也就是说，一切都与选择有关。
It's all about choices, Sarah.
一切都与选择有关，莎拉。
You get a bad grade on a test?
你考试成绩不好？
It's all about choices.
这都是关于选择的。
Yeah, maybe I chose to hang out with my friends as opposed to studying for the test.
是的，也许我选择和朋友们一起出去玩，而不是为了考试而学习。
I get it.
我得到它。
You got a point.
你说得有道理。
But he uses it all the time, for everything.
但他一直在使用它，做任何事情。
It's like, Dad, my car got stolen.
就像，爸爸，我的车被偷了。
It's all about choices, Sarah.
一切都与选择有关，莎拉。
I fell and I broke my tailbone.
我摔倒了，尾骨骨折了。
It's all about choices.
这都是关于选择的。
Because, obviously, it's all my fault.
因为，显然，这都是我的错。
I think this phrase-- I actually know this phrase-- was born on a weeknight, during the autumn of 1990.
我认为这个短语——我实际上知道这个短语——诞生于 1990 年秋天的一个工作日晚上。
Now, the first 12 years of my life, I lived in a upscale neighborhood in the suburbs of Virginia.
现在，在我生命的头 12 年里，我住在弗吉尼亚郊区的一个高档社区。
My dad, he's a lawyer with his own practice.
我父亲是一名律师，有自己的执业经历。
He's got a glittery bass fishing boat, which may not mean anything to all of you, but down there, it's a big deal.
他有一艘闪闪发光的鲈鱼渔船，这对你们所有人来说可能没什么意义，但在那里，这是一件大事。
He's got a beautiful housewife and four perfect children.
他有一个美丽的家庭主妇和四个完美的孩子。
Most perfect, right here.
最完美的，就在这里。
And the picture becomes complete because my mom and my dad both have their own Porsche.
这幅画变得完整，因为我的妈妈和爸爸都有自己的保时捷。
But my dad has the classic 911.
但我爸爸有经典的 911。
My mom has the sporty, fierce 928.
我妈妈有一辆运动型、凶猛的 928。
And my mom's license plate, of course, MOMS928.
当然还有我妈妈的车牌，MOMS928。
My mom was not the one to pack your lunch.
我妈妈不是给你打包午餐的人。
She was not the one to show up at your PTA meeting.
她没有出席你们的 PTA 会议。
She would wear her expensive jewelry to the pool.
她会戴着昂贵的珠宝去泳池。
This is how she was.
她本来就是这样的。
But are we going to line up in our Laura Ashley dresses at the Junior Women's Cotillion Holly Ball and the Miller & Rhoads white gloves in party manner and etiquette school?
但是，我们是否要穿着 Laura Ashley 连衣裙参加青少年女子 Cotillion Holly 舞会，戴上 Miller & Rhoads 白手套参加派对礼仪和礼仪学校？
Yes.
是的。
Yes, we are.
是的，我们是。
And we did.
我们做到了。
Now, that was what it looked like on the outside.
现在，这就是外面的样子。
On the inside, it was not an environment of excess, but one of constraint.
从内部来看，这不是一个过度的环境，而是一个约束的环境。
Rules were very important.
规则非常重要。
Etiquette, very important.
礼仪，非常重要。
And my dad's insane temper could be set off by the slightest offense.
而且我父亲的疯狂脾气可能会因最轻微的冒犯而被激怒。
When I heard the Porsche rumble up the driveway every day when he came home, I would run into my room and hide.
每天他回家时，当我听到保时捷在车道上隆隆驶过时，我就会跑进自己的房间躲起来。
Because maybe today would be the day that he found the candy wrapper in the sofa cushion and make my mom spank someone.
因为也许今天就是他在沙发垫里发现糖果包装纸并让我妈妈打某人屁股的那一天。
Or maybe today would be the day that he grabs me by the shoulder and yells at me for language.
或者今天可能是他抓住我的肩膀，对我大喊大叫的日子。
Because language, in my house, was very important.
因为在我家，语言非常重要。
I mean, curse words, in my house, were extreme.
我的意思是，在我家里，脏话是很极端的。
We were not allowed to say gee-- golly gee-- because it sounded like you were about to say Jesus.
我们不被允许说“哎呀”——天哪——因为听起来就像你要说“耶稣”。
Unacceptable, not out of a morality standpoint, but out of a, sort of like, we don't want our kids to be trash.
这是不可接受的，不是出于道德角度，而是出于某种原因，我们不想让我们的孩子成为垃圾。
OK?
好的？
Only trash says, golly gee.
只有垃圾才会说，天哪。
What?
什么？
I don't understand.
我不明白。
But they could be very loving, very fun.
But they could be very loving, very fun.
I know, it's like, what?
我知道，就像，什么？
They could be fun, they could be spontaneous.
They could be fun, they could be spontaneous.
But it was just all about avoiding awakening the bee's nest.
但这只是为了避免惊醒蜂巢。
So it all came to a screeching halt one night in 1990.
就这样，一切在1990年的一个晚上戛然而止。
I was 12 years old.
那年我12岁。
I'm in my room.
我在我的房间里。
I'm rehearsing my lines for the school musical, which is an incarnation of the comic strip, Hagar the Horrible.
我正在为学校音乐剧排练台词，这是漫画《可怕的夏甲》的化身。
I played the pivotal role of Viking Number Three.
我扮演了维京三号的关键角色。
And my mom comes in the room, and her face is ashen.
我妈妈走进房间，脸色铁青。
And she says, we are having a family meeting.
And she says, we are having a family meeting.
Meet in the den.
在书房见面。
Now, we'd never had a family meeting before, OK?
Now, we'd never had a family meeting before, OK?
Family meetings were for kids whose parents were going to get divorced.
家庭会议是为父母即将离婚的孩子举办的。
That's what they were for.
That's what they were for.
I watched enough TV to know.
I watched enough TV to know.
Enough kids at school-- their parents were getting divorced left and right.
学校里的孩子已经够多了——他们的父母正在左右离婚。
And kids whose parents were divorced were like they had some kind of disease.
父母离婚的孩子就像得了某种疾病一样。
I did not want to associate with them.
I did not want to associate with them.
They were clearly-- they smelled funny, they were poor, they had to go live with their mom in [BLEEP] Park, which was the ghetto because the houses were closer together, and you couldn't have your own pool.
他们显然——他们闻起来很奇怪，他们很穷，他们不得不和他们的妈妈一起住在[BLEEP]公园，那是贫民窟，因为房子靠得很近，而且你不能拥有自己的游泳池。
So we go into the den, which is sort of like a men's parlour, with wood paneling and plaid furniture.
于是我们走进了书房，它有点像男士客厅，有木镶板和格子家具。
It's very manly and dark.
It's very manly and dark.
And my sister's in there.
我姐姐也在里面。
She has magically appeared from her college several hours away.
她神奇地出现在几个小时之外的大学里。
So now I'm like, divorce, divorce, divorce, divorce.
所以现在我想，离婚，离婚，离婚，离婚。
My dad looks really bad.
我爸爸看起来真的很糟糕。
Divorce, divorce, divorce, divorce.
Divorce, divorce, divorce, divorce.
My mom speaks first.
我妈妈先说话。
We're not getting a divorce.
我们不会离婚。
Like she knew.
就像她知道的那样。
Whew, yes, I do not have to become a latchkey kid.
哇，是的，我不必成为一个挂钥匙的孩子。
And then she's like, but Dad-- Dad has something he wants to tell you.
然后她说，但是爸爸——爸爸有件事想告诉你。
My dad starts to weep openly.
我父亲开始公开哭泣。
And any elation about the non-divorce has now turned to complete dread.
任何对不离婚的兴高采烈现在都变成了彻底的恐惧。
So he finally gets the words out.
于是他终于把这句话说出来了。
Daddy did something bad.
爸爸做了坏事。
I took money that wasn't mine.
我拿了不属于我的钱。
And tomorrow I'm going to turn myself in.
明天我要去自首。
And I don't know what's going to happen.
我不知道会发生什么。
Boom!
繁荣！
My brother's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
我哥哥就像，哇，哇，哇，哇，哇，哇，哇。
He's like 16.
他好像16岁。
He's an ass [BLEEP].
他是个混蛋[哔]。
Whoa, whoa, back up, back up.
哇哇哇，后退，后退。
You mean-- what do you mean, you took money that wasn't yours?
你的意思是——你拿了不属于你的钱是什么意思？
Like stealing?
喜欢偷东西？
My dad's like, yes, what I did was like stealing.
我爸爸说，是的，我所做的就像偷窃。
Hey, OK, OK, OK.
嘿，好吧，好吧，好吧。
Was it like stealing, or was it stealing, Dad?
这就像偷窃吗，还是真的偷窃，爸爸？
You either stole or you didn't.
你要么偷了，要么没偷。
So they press him.
所以他们向他施压。
My brother presses him for more information.
我哥哥催促他提供更多信息。
So he tells us that when he was first starting out in law, a young couple had a newborn child that was mentally retarded.
他告诉我们，当他刚开始从事法律工作时，一对年轻夫妇生了一个智障的新生儿。
It's just-- I'm sorry.
只是——对不起。
This is, like, so intense for me to even tell you this.
这对我来说是如此强烈，以至于我不得不告诉你这一点。
I've never told anybody this.
我从来没有告诉过任何人这件事。
This newborn child was mentally retarded, and they believed it was the hospital's fault.
这个刚出生的孩子有智障，他们认为这是医院的错。
So my dad took the case pro bono.
所以我父亲无偿接手了这个案子。
And he worked his butt off.
他竭尽全力地工作。
He's like that ad on the subway, like, we fight for injured children.
他就像地铁上的广告一样，我们为受伤的儿童而战。
And there's a little leprechaun with boxing gloves on him.
还有一个戴着拳击手套的小妖精。
That's my dad, all right?
那是我爸爸，好吗？
So he gets it.
所以他明白了。
And his case was so great that the hospitals decided to settle out of court.
由于他的案子太大，医院决定庭外和解。
And a large sum of money was put into a trust fund for said retarded child.
并为这位智障儿童投入了一大笔钱。
When you're the trustee of a trust fund, that means you can write checks out of the trust fund.
当您是信托基金的受托人时，这意味着您可以从信托基金中开出支票。
AKA, you are entrusted with the money.
又名，你被委托保管这笔钱。
OK?
好的？
So many years after this happened, my dad decided, I'm just going to write myself a check out of this trust fund.
这件事发生多年后，我父亲决定，我要用这个信托基金给自己写一张支票。
And at first, it was just a little bit.
起初，只是一点点。
And he thought, I'll put it back.
他想，我会把它放回去。
No one will ever know.
没有人会知道。
But then a little bit became a lot.
但后来一点点变成了很多。
And it got out of control.
而且事情已经失控了。
Because he had to pay for those Porsches and the house that goes on forever.
因为他必须支付那些保时捷和永远存在的房子的费用。
And so he tells us all this, and he ends by saying, and we're going to start over.
所以他告诉了我们这一切，最后他说，我们要重新开始。
We are going to rebuild our lives.
我们将重建我们的生活。
And I'm over here, who gives a [BLEEP]?
我在这里，谁发出[BLEEP]？
What does this have to do with me?
这跟我有什么关系？
And how am I going to help rebuild this family?
我该如何帮助重建这个家庭？
I'm 12.
我12岁了。
All right?
好吧？
So my mom's like, we recommend that you all stay home from school tomorrow, and we can work this out as a family.
所以我妈妈说，我们建议你们明天都呆在家里不上学，我们可以一家人一起解决这个问题。
And I stood up, and I'm like, no. This is just perfect.
我站起来，我想，不。这太完美了。
You always make big announcements before the school play, the night before the school play.
你总是在学校比赛前、学校比赛前一天晚上发布重大公告。
Grandaddy died the night before The Wizard of Oz.
爷爷在《绿野仙踪》的前一天晚上去世了。
Here we go again.
又来了。
This always happens.
这种事总是会发生。
Don't you people get it?
难道你们不明白吗？
When you miss school, you're not allowed to participate in the after-school activities.
当你缺课时，你不能参加课后活动。
I hate you.
我恨你。
I ran off.
我跑掉了。
So basically, what happened, I realized, it kind of was a big deal.
所以基本上，我意识到发生的事情是一件大事。
Everybody at school knows that my dad's a bank robber.
学校里的每个人都知道我爸爸是一名银行抢劫犯。
And they're calling me one.
他们称我为一员。
They think that I am come from a band of thieves and I'm not to be trusted.
他们认为我来自一群盗贼，不值得信任。
My parents lose all their friends.
我的父母失去了所有的朋友。
We have to move to the ghetto in [BLEEP] Park, which actually is a very nice neighborhood.
我们必须搬到[BLEEP]公园的贫民窟，那实际上是一个非常好的社区。
They didn't press charges.
他们没有提出指控。
The family, amazingly, just said, hey, pay it back.
令人惊讶的是，家人只是说，嘿，还钱吧。
[UNINTELLIGIBLE] My dad basically went from a lawyer to being, like, a paralegal.
[难以理解]我父亲基本上从一名律师变成了一名律师助理。
He was disbarred.
他被取消律师资格。
It was terrible.
太可怕了。
My mom started doing odd jobs.
我妈妈开始打零工。
She changed sheets at a nursing home and was the janitor in our Baptist Church.
她在疗养院换床单，也是我们浸信会教堂的看门人。
And it was a free-for-all in my house.
在我家里，这是一场混战。
Like, what was once very controlled was now like, whatever.
就像，曾经非常受控制的事情现在就像，无论如何。
Do what you want, Sarah.
做你想做的事，莎拉。
See you, we're going to go find ourselves.
再见，我们要去寻找自己。
But my dad was instantly better.
但我爸爸立刻就好了。
He was a better person.
他是一个更好的人。
He was happy.
他很高兴。
He chewed gum, which didn't happen before.
他嚼口香糖，这在以前是没有发生过的。
And he wasn't such an a-hole all the time.
而且他也不是一直都是个混蛋。
And Mom, her transformation was amazing.
妈妈，她的转变是惊人的。
She basically, just had this deep need in herself to recognize need and suffering in other people.
基本上，她自己内心深处有一种认识到他人的需要和痛苦的需要。
And one day, she just went downtown and packed some bagged lunches-- that she never packed for me-- and took them to some homeless people living under a bridge, which turned into this huge charity, and she helped thousands of people who needed her help.
有一天，她去市中心打包了一些袋装午餐——她从来没有给我打包过——然后把它们送给住在桥下的一些无家可归的人，这变成了这个巨大的慈善机构，她帮助了成千上万需要她帮助的人。
And she went to Rwanda during the genocide.
她在种族灭绝期间去了卢旺达。
And she even let a homeless guy named Earl live with us once.
她甚至让一个名叫厄尔的无家可归的人曾经和我们住在一起。
He was a fugitive.
他是一名逃犯。
We figured it out later.
我们后来想通了。
But who are we to judge?
但我们该评判谁呢？
I mean, who are we to judge, really?
我的意思是，我们到底该评判谁？
So finally, we never talked about it after that.
所以最后我们再也没有谈论过这件事。
Except once, my mom and I, about a year ago, were driving around, killing some time before her chemo treatment.
除了一次，大约一年前，我和妈妈开车到处走走，在她接受化疗之前消磨了一些时间。
And we went to the house that goes on forever.
我们去了那座永远存在的房子。
We wanted to see it.
我们想看看它。
And it was very sad looking.
而且看起来非常悲伤。
And the grass was dead.
草也死了。
And it was kind of crumbling.
它有点崩溃了。
And we stopped, and I asked her, Mom-- I don't even know why I said it-- Mom, why did Dad turn himself in?
我们停了下来，我问她，妈妈——我什至不知道我为什么这么说——妈妈，爸爸为什么要自首？
And she said, well, your sister wrote him a letter from college that said she loved him and was proud of him and wanted to be a lawyer.
她说，好吧，你姐姐给他写了一封大学信，说她爱他，为他感到骄傲，并想成为一名律师。
And I came home and found him sobbing in the fetal position on the floor.
我回到家，发现他以胎儿的姿势躺在地板上抽泣。
And he said to me, I can't do this anymore.
他对我说，我不能再这样做了。
I've made all the wrong choices.
我做出了所有错误的选择。
And now I'm ready to make a right one.
现在我准备好做一个正确的了。
And then he confessed, and he told us that night.
然后他承认了，那天晚上他告诉了我们。
So my mom told me this, and then we sat there in silence.
所以我妈妈告诉了我这件事，然后我们默默地坐在那里。
And I said, it's all about choices.
我说，这都是关于选择的。
And we laughed.
我们笑了。
Well, our program was produced today by Jane Feltes and myself, with Alex Blumberg, Sarah Koenig, Lisa Pollak, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
好吧，我们今天的节目是由 Jane Feltes 和我本人以及 Alex Blumberg、Sarah Koenig、Lisa Pollak、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 制作的。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Production help from Seth Lind and P.J.
Seth Lind 和 P.J. 的制作帮助
Vogt.
沃格特。
Music help from Jessica Hopper.
杰西卡·霍珀的音乐帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
[致谢]《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight for our program by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia, who described his philosophy of broadcasting this way.
[资金来源] 我们的老板 Torey Malatia 先生对我们的节目进行了 WBEZ 管理监督，他描述了他以这种方式进行广播的理念。
Everything must be charming.
一切都必须是迷人的。
And you don't allow the ugly.
而且你不允许丑陋。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。