357: The Truth Will Out - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #357 | June 13, 2008 357: The Truth Will Out Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 357 集 | 2008 年 6 月 13 日 357：真相终将大白 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life , distributed by Public Radio International.
序言 Ira Glass 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥，这就是美国生活，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
I lie, probably, every weekend to my mom.
我可能每个周末都对妈妈撒谎。
Mostly drinking and what time I get home.
主要是喝酒，什么时候回家。
Where I am.
我在哪里。
Who I'm with.
我和谁在一起。
This girl is a high school senior.
这个女孩是一名高中生。
And let's just identify her as living somewhere in North America.
And let's just identify her as living somewhere in North America.
And, probably, the biggest lie she perpetrated against her mom was an ongoing deception that lasted two years, starting when she was 14, a freshman.
而且，她对妈妈犯下的最大的谎言可能是从她 14 岁一年级时开始的持续两年的欺骗。
She would stay out till midnight in the park with her friends, drinking, most Friday and Saturday nights, which her mom definitely would not allow.
大多数周五和周六晚上，她都会和朋友们在公园里喝酒直到午夜，而她妈妈绝对不会允许。
So she told her mom that they were at a Chinese restaurant every weekend for two years.
于是她告诉妈妈，两年来他们每个周末都去一家中餐馆。
She'd come home drunk and convince her mom she was sober.
She'd come home drunk and convince her mom she was sober.
What I'm doing, she never normally, really finds out.
我在做什么，她通常不会真正发现。
Like, I think she has no idea that I hung out in a park for two years of my life.
就像，我想她不知道我在公园里闲逛了两年。
I think she'd just be really upset, because she really thinks she knows exactly what's going on in my life, and she really has no idea.
我认为她会非常沮丧，因为她真的认为她清楚地知道我的生活中发生了什么，而她真的不知道。
I think that would just hurt her.
我认为这只会伤害她。
Oh, she thinks you guys are really close.
哦，她认为你们真的很亲密。
Yeah, she thinks we are really close.
是的，她认为我们真的很亲密。
And, yeah, she thinks she knows everything I do, and she doesn't.
是的，她认为她知道我所做的一切，但她不知道。
But now, they're both at a turning point.
但现在，他们都处于转折点。
Graduation is next week, which makes this girl just old enough that she's starting to wonder if, someday, she should let her mom know the truth about all of it.
下周就要毕业了，这使得这个女孩已经足够大了，她开始怀疑是否有一天她应该让她妈妈知道这一切的真相。
In the past when she thought about telling her mom the truth, it was actually more of a revenge kind of thing.
以前她想过告诉妈妈真相，其实更多的是一种报复的感觉。
There have been points where, I really just want my mom to feel kind of stupid and let down.
有些时候，我真的只是想让我妈妈感到有点愚蠢和失望。
Has been points when, I've been really mad at her, we haven't been getting along, that's been like, I want to make you feel like you really don't know what you're talking about.
有时候，我真的很生她的气，我们相处得不好，就像，我想让你觉得你真的不知道自己在说什么。
Because every time she's always like, you know I'll always catch you.
因为每次她总是说，你知道我总会抓住你的。
You know I always know what you're doing.
你知道我总是知道你在做什么。
And there's been points where I just want to be like, listen mom, you really don't know what's going on.
有些时候我只想说，听着妈妈，你真的不知道发生了什么。
This is what's happened for the past four years of my life.
这就是我生命中过去四年所发生的事情。
You really haven't known much.
你确实了解不多。
It would just be like a really big power trip for me.
对我来说这就像一次真正的权力之旅。
And now with school ending and college so soon, already her mom is loosening up the reins and not checking up on her so much.
现在，学校即将结束，大学即将毕业，她的妈妈已经放松了控制，不再过多地检查她。
She could see that maybe it would be best for everybody, her and her mom, if the truth never came out.
她明白，如果真相永远不会真相大白，也许这对每个人来说都是最好的，包括她和她的妈妈。
And if it did come out, she'd want it to be for a good reason.
如果它真的出来了，她希望它有一个充分的理由。
I mean, I might not never tell her, might not ever tell her about the park.
我的意思是，我可能永远不会告诉她，可能永远不会告诉她有关公园的事情。
I'll see.
我会看看。
I've actually thought about it.
我其实也想过。
I've had serious thoughts about telling her the truth, once I'm in college.
当我上大学时，我曾认真考虑过要告诉她真相。
I really do want to become close to my mom again.
我真的很想再次亲近我的妈妈。
We had a really big falling out, especially, when she started going out with her boyfriend.
我们发生了很大的争吵，尤其是当她开始和男朋友约会时。
And we have gotten a lot closer since we started talking again, and like we told each other how we feel and stuff.
自从我们再次开始交谈以来，我们的关系变得更加亲密，就像我们告诉对方我们的感受和事情一样。
And it's just-- I have a lot of older friends who have had some troubles with their parents in the past and like, once they were in college, got really close to them again.
只是——我有很多年长的朋友，他们过去和父母有过一些麻烦，一旦他们上了大学，就又和他们变得非常亲近了。
And I really want that.
我真的很想要那个。
Like, I want to be closer with my mom.
比如，我想和妈妈更亲近。
I want to be able to tell her everything and tell her the truth.
我希望能够告诉她一切，告诉她真相。
And so I think that is the main reason that I would tell her at this point.
所以我认为这是我此时告诉她的主要原因。
I don't really need her to be feeling stupid anymore like, now it'd just be to get close.
我真的不需要她再感到愚蠢了，现在只是为了靠近。
I think one of the least accurate truisms, or if it's a folk wisdom, is the idea, the truth will come out.
我认为最不准确的真理之一，或者如果这是一种民间智慧，就是这个想法，真相将会大白。
Of course, it doesn't come out.
当然，它不会出来。
So many lies are so small, they're not even worth exposing.
很多谎言是如此之小，甚至不值得揭穿。
And then any lie that matters, has somebody invested in keeping it a lie.
然后，任何重要的谎言，都会有人投入精力让它成为谎言。
In a way it's remarkably rare for the truth to come out at all.
从某种程度上来说，真相大白的情况非常罕见。
It takes ingenuity, and effort, and cunning, and a decision.
这需要聪明才智、努力、狡猾和决定。
Today we have three stories of lies, finally exposed, each under very dramatic circumstances.
今天我们要讲的三个谎言故事最终被揭穿，每个故事都是在非常戏剧性的情况下发生的。
Act one, "Lieland" in which we bring you a cheerfully and surprisingly unrepentant story about lying.
第一幕“利兰德”，我们为您带来一个关于谎言的令人愉快且令人惊讶的不悔改的故事。
Act two, "The Spy Who Bugged Me," journalist Lawrence Wright tries to uncover some basic truths about whether his phone is being tapped and by whom.
第二幕“窃听我的间谍”中，记者劳伦斯·赖特试图揭开一些关于他的电话是否被窃听以及被窃听者的基本事实。
And when he finds the whom behind it, they are also surprisingly unrepentant.
而当他找到幕后黑手时，他们也出奇的不思悔改。
Act three, "Rosa In The Study With the ATM Card," A woman tries to get to the bottom of a domestic mystery in her father's house.
第三幕“罗莎在拿着 ATM 卡的书房”，一名妇女试图查清她父亲家里的一个家庭谜团。
And the suspect, one of the butlers, kind of.
嫌疑人是管家之一。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act one, "Lieland," we start with this story about lying from Etgar Keret, who has been on our show before.
第一幕“Lieland”，我们从 Etgar Keret 讲述的关于撒谎的故事开始，他以前曾出现在我们的节目中。
He is an Israeli writer.
他是一位以色列作家。
This story was read for us by actor Dermot Mulroney.
这个故事是由演员德莫特·莫罗尼为我们朗读的。
Robbie was seven when he told his first lie.
罗比七岁时第一次撒谎。
His mother had given him a wrinkled, old, 10 lira bill and asked him to go buy a pack of king-sized Kents at the grocery store.
他的母亲给了他一张又皱又旧的 10 里拉钞票，并让他去杂货店买一包特大号肯特啤酒。
Robbie bought an ice cream cone instead.
罗比买了一个蛋卷冰淇淋。
He took the change and hid the coins under a white rock in the backyard of their apartment building.
他接过零钱，把硬币藏在公寓楼后院的一块白色岩石下。
And when mother asked him what had happened, he told her that a giant red-headed kid, with a front-tooth missing, tackled him in the street, slapped him, and took the money.
当母亲问他发生了什么事时，他告诉她，一个门牙不见了的红发大孩子在街上撞倒了他，打了他一巴掌，然后拿走了钱。
Mother believed him.
母亲相信了他。
And Robbie hadn't stopped lying since.
从那以后罗比就没有停止过撒谎。
When he was in high school, he spent the better part of an entire week vegging out on the beach in Eilat, after selling the student counselor a story about his aunt from Beersheba, who discovered she had cancer.
当他上高中时，他向学生辅导员讲述了他来自贝尔谢巴的阿姨发现自己患有癌症的故事，之后整整一周的大部分时间都在埃拉特的海滩上闲逛。
When he was in the army, this imaginary aunt went blind and saved his ass big-time for going AWOL-- no detention, not even confined to barracks, nothing.
当他在军队的时候，这个想象中的阿姨双目失明，这让他免于擅离职守——没有拘留，甚至没有被限制在军营里，什么都没有。
Once, he justified being two hours late to work with a lie about a German shepherd he'd found lying beside the road.
有一次，他谎称自己发现一只德国牧羊犬躺在路边，以此为自己上班迟到两个小时辩护。
The dog had been run over, and Robbie had taken it to the vet.
那只狗被碾过，罗比把它带到了兽医那里。
In this lie, the dog remained paralyzed in two of its legs.
在这个谎言中，狗的两条腿仍然瘫痪。
Those legs did the trick.
那双腿成功了。
There were a lot of lies along the way in Robbie's life: lies without arms, and lies that were ill, lies that do harm, and lies that could kill, lies with legs, lies on wheels, lies in tuxedos, lies that steal, lies he made up in a flash and just as soon forgot about.
罗比的一生中充满了谎言：没有手臂的谎言，生病的谎言，造成伤害的谎言，可能杀人的谎言，有腿的谎言，车轮上的谎言，穿着燕尾服的谎言，偷窃的谎言，他一闪而过的谎言，很快就忘记了。
It all started with a dream, a short, fuzzy dream about his dead mother.
这一切都始于一个梦，一个关于他死去的母亲的短暂而模糊的梦。
In this dream, the two of them are sitting on a straw mat in the middle of a clear, white surface, devoid of all detail, that seemed to have no beginning and no end.
在这个梦里，两人坐在一张草席上，地面正中央一片清白，没有任何细节，似乎没有开始，也没有结束。
Next to them on this infinite, white surface was a gumball machine with a bubble top, the old fashioned kind where you put a coin in the slot, turn the handle and out comes a gumball.
在他们旁边，在这个无限的白色表面上有一个带有气泡顶的口香糖球机，这是一种老式的机器，你将一枚硬币放入投币口，转动手柄，就会出来一个口香糖球。
And in his dream, Robbie's mother told him that the afterworld was driving her up the wall.
在他的梦中，罗比的母亲告诉他，来世正在把她逼到绝境。
Because the people there were OK, but there were no cigarettes-- not just no cigarettes, no coffee or talk shows, nothing.
因为那里的人都很好，但是没有香烟——不仅仅是没有香烟，没有咖啡或脱口秀，什么都没有。
"You've got to help me Robbie," she said.
“你必须帮助我，罗比，”她说。
"You've got to buy me a gumball.
“你得给我买一个口香糖。
I raised you.
我养育了你。
All these years, I gave you everything and asked for nothing, but now it's time to give something back to your mom.
这些年来，我给了你一切，不求任何回报，但现在是时候回馈你的妈妈了。
Get me a gum ball, a red one if you can, but blue is OK, too."
给我一个口香糖球，如果可以的话，红色的，但蓝色的也可以。”
And in his dream, Robbie rummaged through his pockets, over and over, trying to find some change.
在梦中，罗比一遍又一遍地翻遍口袋，试图找到零钱。
Nothing.
没有什么。
"I haven't got any, Mom," he said, the tears welling in his eyes.
“我没有，妈妈，”他说，泪水在眼里打转。
"I haven't got any change.
“我没有任何零钱。
I've gone through all my pockets."
我已经翻遍了我所有的口袋。”
Considering that he never cried when he was awake, it was strange to be crying in his dream.
考虑到他醒着的时候从来没有哭过，所以在梦里哭就显得很奇怪了。
"Did you look under the rock?" his mother asked, and clasped his hands in her own.
“你看过岩石下面吗？”他母亲问道，并握住他的双手。
"Maybe the coins are still there."
“也许硬币还在那里。”
Then he woke up.
然后他醒了。
It was 5:00 AM on a Saturday, still dark out.
那是周六凌晨 5:00，外面天还黑着。
Robbie found himself getting into the car and driving to the place where he had grown up.
罗比发现自己上了车，开往他长大的地方。
On a Saturday morning with no traffic on the road, it took less than 20 minutes to get there.
周六早上，路上没什么车流，不到20分钟就到了。
On the ground floor of the building, where Plisken's grocery store had been, there was a dollar store.
在大楼的底层，也就是普利斯肯杂货店所在的地方，有一家一元店。
And next to it, instead of the shoe-repair guy, there was a cell phone outlet offering upgrades like there was no tomorrow.
旁边没有修鞋店，而是一个提供升级服务的手机店，就像没有明天一样。
But the building itself hadn't changed.
但建筑本身并没有改变。
More than 20 years had gone by since they moved out, and it hadn't even been painted.
搬出去已经20多年了，房子还没刷过漆。
The yard was still the same too, a few flowers, a spigot, a rusty water-meter, and weeds.
院子还是老样子，几朵花，一个水龙头，一个生锈的水表，还有杂草。
And in the corner, next to the clotheslines, was the white rock, waiting.
角落里，晾衣绳旁边，有一块白色的岩石，正在等待着。
There he stood in the backyard of the building where he'd grown up, wearing his parka, holding a big, plastic flashlight, and feeling strange, like some kind of thief-- no, not a thief, a nutjob.
他站在他长大的那栋大楼的后院，穿着派克大衣，拿着一个大塑料手电筒，感觉很奇怪，就像某种小偷——不，不是小偷，而是一个疯子。
5:15 AM on a Saturday, if a neighbor were to show up, what would tell him?
星期六凌晨 5:15，如果邻居出现，他会告诉他什么？
My dead mother appeared in my dream and asked me to buy her a gumball, so I came here to look for change?
死去的妈妈出现在我的梦里，让我给她买口香糖，所以我来这里找零钱？
It seemed strange that the rock would still be there after all those years.
奇怪的是，这么多年过去了，这块岩石仍然在那里。
Then again, if you thought about it, it wasn't really as strange as all that.
话又说回来，如果你仔细想想，你会发现事情并没有那么奇怪。
It's not as if rocks just get up and walk away.
这并不是说岩石会站起来走开。
Half-afraid, he picked it up gingerly, as if there might be a scorpion hiding underneath.
他有些害怕，小心翼翼地把它捡起来，仿佛下面可能藏着一只蝎子。
But there was no scorpion, and no snake, either, and no coins, just a hole the width of his arm, and a light shining out of it.
但没有蝎子，也没有蛇，也没有硬币，只有一个手臂宽的洞，里面有光亮。
Robbie tried to peek into the hole, but the light was dazzling.
罗比试图往洞里看，但光线刺眼。
He hesitated a second, then reached in.
他犹豫了一秒，然后伸手进去。
Lying on the ground, he extended his entire arm, all the way to shoulder, trying to touch something at the bottom.
他趴在地上，伸出整条手臂，一直到肩膀，想要触碰底部的什么东西。
But there was no bottom.
但没有底。
And the only thing he could reach was made of cold metal and felt like a handle, the handle of a gumball machine.
他唯一能触及的东西是冰冷的金属制成的，摸起来就像一个手柄，口香糖球机的手柄。
Robbie turned it as hard as he could and felt the handle respond to his touch.
罗比用尽全力转动它，感觉到手柄对他的触摸做出了反应。
This was exactly the moment where the gumball should have rolled out.
这正是口香糖球应该推出的时刻。
This was exactly when it should have come all the way out of the innards of the machine, right into the hand of the little boy who was waiting impatiently for it to emerge.
正是在这个时候，它应该从机器的内部完全出来，直接到达那个不耐烦地等待它出现的小男孩的手中。
This was exactly the point when all that was supposed to happen.
这正是所有事情应该发生的时刻。
But it didn't.
但事实并非如此。
And as soon as Robbie finished turning the handle of the machine, he showed up here.
而罗比刚转动完机器的手柄，就出现在了这里。
Here was a different place but a familiar one too.
这是一个不同的地方，但也是一个熟悉的地方。
It was the place from his mother's dream: stark white, no walls, no floor, no ceiling, no sunshine, just whiteness and a gumball machine-- a gumball machine, and a sweaty, ugly, red-headed boy.
这是他母亲梦想中的地方：纯白，没有墙壁，没有地板，没有天花板，没有阳光，只有白色和一台口香糖机——一台口香糖机，还有一个满身是汗、丑陋的红发男孩。
And before Robbie had a chance to smile at the boy or say anything at all, the red-head gave him a kick in the shins as hard as he could.
罗比还没来得及对男孩微笑或说什么，红发男孩就用尽全力踢了他的小腿。
And Robbie dropped to the ground, writhing.
罗比倒在地上，扭动着。
Now, with Robbie down on his knees, he and the kid were the same height.
现在，罗比跪下，他和孩子一样高。
The kid looked Robbie in the eye.
那孩子看着罗比的眼睛。
And even though Robbie knew they'd never me, there was something familiar about him.
尽管罗比知道他们永远不会是我，但他身上还是有一些熟悉的东西。
"Who are you?" he asked the kid, who was standing up close, glaring at him.
“你是谁？”他问那个站在附近瞪着他的孩子。
"Me?" the boy answered, showing a mean smile with a front-tooth missing.
“我？”男孩回答道，露出一个缺了门牙的刻薄笑容。
"I'm your first lie."
“我是你的第一个谎言。”
Robbie struggled to his feet.
罗比挣扎着站起来。
His leg, where the kid had kicked him, hurt like hell.
他的腿，就是那孩子踢他的地方，疼得要命。
The kid himself was long gone.
孩子本人早已不在了。
Robbie studied the gumball machine.
罗比研究了口香糖球机。
In between the round gumballs, there were those translucent, plastic balls with trinkets inside.
圆形的口香糖球之间，是那些半透明的塑料球，里面装满了小饰品。
He rummaged through his pocket for some change, but then remembered that the kid had grabbed his wallet before he split.
他在口袋里翻找零钱，但随即想起那孩子在他分开之前抢走了他的钱包。
Robbie limped off in no particular direction.
罗比一瘸一拐地朝没有特定方向的方向走去。
Since there was nothing to go by on the white surface except the gumball machine, the only thing left for him to do is to try to move away from it.
由于白色的表面上除了口香糖球机之外没有任何东西可走，他唯一能做的就是设法远离它。
Every few steps, he turned around to make sure the machine really was becoming smaller.
每隔几步，他就回头看看机器是否真的变小了。
At one point, he turned, and he discovered a German shepherd, with a leash dragging behind it, next to a skinny, old man with a glass eye and no hands.
有一次，他转过身来，发现一只德国牧羊犬，身后拖着一条皮带，旁边是一位瘦弱的老人，眼睛是玻璃的，没有手。
The dog he recognized at once, by the way it half crawled forward, its two forelegs struggling to pull its paralyzed pelvis.
他立刻认出了那条狗，从它半向前爬行的样子来看，它的两条前腿正在努力拉动瘫痪的骨盆。
It was the run-over dog from one of the lies he'd told at work.
这是他在工作中撒谎时被碾死的狗。
The dog panting with effort and excitement, wagged its tail.
狗气喘吁吁，兴奋地摇着尾巴。
He licked Robbie's hand and looked at him intently, with glistening eyes.
他舔了舔罗比的手，专注地看着他，眼睛闪闪发亮。
The man held out the hook attached to the stump of his right arm, for what passed as a handshake.
那人伸出右臂残肢上的钩子，看似握手。
Robbie couldn't place him.
罗比无法确定他的位置。
"I'm Robbie," he said.
“我是罗比，”他说。
"I am Igor," the old man introduced himself and gave Robbie a pat with one of his hooks.
“我是伊戈尔。”老人自我介绍道，并用钩子拍了拍罗比。
"Do we know each other?" Robbie asked, after a few seconds' awkward silence.
“我们认识吗？”尴尬的沉默了几秒后，罗比问道。
"No," Igor said, lifting the leash with one of his hooks.
“不，”伊戈尔说，用他的一个钩子提起皮带。
"I am only here because of him.
“我只是因为他才来到这里。
He sniffed you from miles away and got worked up.
他从几英里之外就闻到了你的味道，然后变得很兴奋。
He wanted us to come."
他希望我们来。”
"So, there's no connection between us?" Robbie asked.
“这么说来，我们之间没有任何关系了？”罗比问道。
He felt a sense of relief as he said this.
说这话的时候，他有一种如释重负的感觉。
"Between us?
“我们之间？
No, no connection.
不，没有联系。
I'm somebody else's lie."
我是别人的谎言。”
Robbie almost asked whose lie he was, but he didn't know whether the question was considered polite around here.
罗比几乎要问他是谁的谎言，但他不知道这个问题在这里是否被认为是礼貌的。
For that matter, he'd have liked to ask what this place was exactly.
就此而言，他很想问一下这个地方到底是什么。
And whether there were a lot more people there, or lies, or whatever they call themselves.
以及那里是否有更多的人，或者谎言，或者无论他们如何称呼自己。
But he thought that this also might be a sensitive topic, and that he shouldn't bring it up just yet.
但他觉得这也可能是个敏感话题，暂时不宜提出来。
For the moment, he patted Igor's handicapped dog.
此刻，他拍了拍伊戈尔的残疾狗。
He was a nice dog and seemed happy to have met Robbie, who felt bad that he couldn't have gone and made up a lie with a little less pain and suffering in it.
它是一只好狗，似乎很高兴见到罗比，罗比感到很难过，因为他不能去编造一个谎言，少一点痛苦和折磨。
"The gumball machine," he asked Igor, when a few minutes had passed.
“口香糖球机，”几分钟过去后，他问伊戈尔。
"What coins does it take?"
“需要什么硬币？”
"Liras," the old man said.
“里拉，”老人说。
"If you don't have any--"
“如果你没有——”
"There was a kid here, just now," Robbie said, "he took my wallet.
“刚才有一个孩子在这里，”罗比说，“他拿走了我的钱包。
But even if he hadn't, there wouldn't be any liras in it."
但即使他没有，里面也不会有里拉。”
"A kid with a tooth missing?" Igor asked.
“孩子缺了一颗牙？”伊戈尔问道。
"That little scum steals from everyone.
“那个小人渣偷了所有人的钱。
He even eats the dog's kennel ration.
他甚至吃狗舍的口粮。
Where I come from in Russia, they take a kid like that and they'd stick him out in the snow.
我来自俄罗斯，他们会带着这样的孩子把他放在雪地里。
And they wouldn't let him back in the house until his whole body turned blue." With one of his hooks, Igor pointed to his back pocket.
直到他全身变蓝之前，他们不会让他回到屋里。”伊戈尔用他的一个钩子指着他后面的口袋。
"In there, I got some liras.
“在那里，我有一些里拉。
Help yourself, it's on "
帮帮自己吧，就在“
Robbie hesitated, but he took the lira out of Igor's pocket.
罗比犹豫了一下，但还是从伊戈尔的口袋里掏出了里拉。
And after thanking him, Robbie offered to give him his Swatch in return.
在感谢他之后，罗比提出将他的斯沃琪作为回报。
"Thanks," Igor nodded.
“谢谢，”伊戈尔点点头。
"But the last thing I need is a watch, especially a plastic one.
“但我最不需要的就是手表，尤其是塑料手表。
I'm in no hurry to get anywhere anyway." When he saw Robbie looking around for something else to give him, Igor stopped him and said, "I owed you.
反正我也不急着去任何地方。”当他看到罗比四处寻找其他东西可以给他时，伊戈尔阻止了他，说：“我欠你的。
If you hadn't made up that lie about the dog, I'd be here completely on my own.
如果你没有编造关于那条狗的谎言，我现在就只能孤身一人在这里了。
We're even."
我们扯平了。”
Robbie hobbled back in the direction of the gumball machine.
罗比一瘸一拐地朝口香糖球机的方向走去。
He was still smarting from the red-head's kick, but much less now.
他仍然因为红发人的一脚而感到疼痛，但现在已经少多了。
He dropped the lira into the slot, took a deep breath, closed his eyes, and twisted the handle quickly.
他将里拉投入投币口，深吸一口气，闭上眼睛，快速转动把手。
When he made one full turn, he found himself stretched on the ground in the yard of their old building.
当他转了一圈后，他发现自己躺在他们旧楼院子里的地上。
The dawn light was painting the sky dark shades of blue.
黎明的阳光把天空涂成了深蓝色。
Robbie pulled his arm out of the hole in the ground.
罗比把他的手臂从地上的洞里拉出来。
When he opened his fist, there was a red gumball inside.
当他张开拳头时，里面有一个红色的口香糖球。
Before he left, he replaced the rock where it had been.
离开之前，他把石头放回原来的位置。
He didn't ask himself what had happened there in the hole.
他没有问自己洞里发生了什么。
He just got in the car, backed up, and drove away.
他刚上车，倒车，就开走了。
The red gumball, he put under his pillow for his mother, in case she came back in his dream.
他把红色的口香糖放在枕头底下，送给妈妈，以防她回到他的梦中。
But she never did.
但她从来没有这样做过。
And he never went back to their old yard.
他再也没有回到过他们的老院子。
He thought about it all the time at first, about that place, about the dog, about Igor, about other lies he'd told and how lucky he was not to have met them too.
一开始他一直在想这件事，关于那个地方，关于狗，关于伊戈尔，关于他说过的其他谎言，以及他没有遇见他们是多么幸运。
He kept lying at first.
起初他一直在撒谎。
But the lies he told were sort-of positive, the kind of lie where no one beats anyone up, and no one's crippled or dies of cancer.
但他说的谎言是积极的，没有人殴打任何人，也没有人致残或死于癌症。
He couldn't make it, because he had to water the plants in some aunt's apartment while she was visiting her successful son abroad.
他没能成功，因为当一位阿姨去国外探望她成功的儿子时，他不得不给她公寓里的植物浇水。
He was late, because a cat just had kittens practically on his stoop, and he had to take care of the litter, stuff like that.
他迟到了，因为一只猫几乎在他的门廊上生了小猫，他必须照顾垃圾之类的事情。
The trouble with all these positive lies was how much more complicated they were to think up, at least if you wanted them to sound plausible.
所有这些积极的谎言的问题在于，它们的构思要复杂得多，至少如果你想让它们听起来合理的话。
In general, if you tell people something bad, they buy right into it, because it strikes them as normal.
一般来说，如果你告诉人们一些不好的事情，他们会立即接受，因为这对他们来说很正常。
But when you make-up good things, they get suspicious.
但当你编造美好的事物时，他们就会产生怀疑。
And so, very gradually, Robbie found himself tapering off with the lies.
因此，渐渐地，罗比发现自己的谎言逐渐减少。
And to make sure he did less lying, he did less talking too.
为了确保他少撒谎，他也少说话。
And to do that, he met less with people, which was supposed to leave him more time to think about life, and about the lies, and about the hole in the corner of the yard next to clotheslines.
为了做到这一点，他减少了与人的接触，这应该让他有更多的时间思考生活，思考谎言，思考院子角落里晾衣绳旁边的洞。
But he didn't.
但他没有。
At least, not until the morning when he overheard Natasha, from accounting, talking in the hallway with the boss.
至少，直到早上他无意中听到会计部门的娜塔莎在走廊里和老板谈话。
Her uncle Igor had had a heart attack, and she needed some time off.
她的叔叔伊戈尔心脏病发作，她需要休息一段时间。
Poor guy, a widower-- lost both hands in an accident a few years ago, and now his heart.
可怜的家伙，一个鳏夫——几年前在一次事故中失去了双手，现在又失去了心脏。
He was so alone, so helpless.
他是那么孤独，那么无助。
The head of accounting granted her time-off right away, no questions asked.
会计主管立即准许她休假，没有提出任何问题。
She went to her office, took her bag, and left the building.
她去了办公室，拿上包，离开了大楼。
Robbie followed her to her car, then approached her.
罗比跟着她走到她的车前，然后走近她。
"You work in requisitions, don't you?" she asked, turning to face him.
“你是从事采购工作的，不是吗？”她转身面对他问道。
"Securities assistant?"
“证券助理？”
"Yeah, my name's Robbie." "Cool, Robbie," Natasha said, with a nervous Russian smile.
“是的，我叫罗比。” “酷，罗比，”娜塔莎说道，脸上带着紧张的俄罗斯微笑。
"So, what's up Robbie, need something?"
“那么，罗比，有什么需要吗？”
"It's about the lie you told earlier to the head of accounting," Robbie stammered.
“这是关于你之前对会计主管撒的谎，”罗比结结巴巴地说。
"I know him."
“我认识他。”
"You follow me all the way to my car just to accuse me of being a liar?"
“你一路尾随我到我的车前，就是为了指责我是骗子吗？”
"No," said Robbie.
“不，”罗比说。
"I didn't mean to accuse you.
“我并不是有意指责你。
Really, your being a liar is cool.
真的，你当骗子很酷。
I'm a liar, too.
我也是个骗子。
But this Igor from your lie, I met him.
但这个来自你谎言的伊戈尔，我遇见了他。
He's a good guy.
他是个好人。
And you, if you don't mind me saying so, you've made things pretty hard for him as it is.
而你，如果你不介意我这么说的话，你已经让他的处境变得非常困难了。
So, I just wanted to say--"
所以，我只想说——”
"Would you get out of my way," Natasha said.
“你能别挡我的路吗？”娜塔莎说。
"You're blocking the door of my car."
“你挡住了我的车门。”
"I know this sounds far-fetched, but I can prove it," Robbie said, feeling more and more uneasy.
“我知道这听起来很牵强，但我可以证明这一点，”罗比说，感觉越来越不安。
"This Igor doesn't have an eye.
“这个伊戈尔没有眼睛。
I mean, he has an eye, but only one.
我的意思是，他有一只眼睛，但只有一只。
At one point, you must have made up something about how he'd lost an eye, right?
有一次，你一定编造了一些关于他如何失去一只眼睛的故事，对吧？
See, how would I know that if I hadn't really met him?"
你看，如果我没有真正见过他，我怎么知道这一点呢？”
Natasha had already started to get into her car but stopped, "Well, how do you know that, about the glass eye?
娜塔莎已经准备上车，但停了下来，“好吧，你怎么知道玻璃眼睛的事？
Are you a friend of Slava's?"
你是斯拉瓦的朋友吗？”
"I don't know any Slava." Robbie muttered, "Just Igor, really.
“我不认识任何斯拉瓦。”罗比嘟囔道：“只是伊戈尔，真的。
If you want, I can take you to him."
如果你愿意的话，我可以带你去见他。”
They were standing in the backyard of his building.
他们站在他大楼的后院。
Robbie moved the rock, lay down on the damp soil, and pushed his arm all the way into the hole.
罗比搬开石头，躺在潮湿的土壤上，然后将手臂完全推入洞中。
He kept going till his fingers felt the cold, metal handle.
他继续前进，直到手指感觉到冰冷的金属手柄。
Natasha was standing over him.
娜塔莎站在他身边。
He held out his other arm and said, "hold on tight."
他伸出另一只手，说道：“抓紧一点。”
Natasha looked at the man stretched out at her feet: thirty-something, good looking in an ironed, white shirt, now slightly more wrinkled and soiled.
娜塔莎看着趴在她脚边的男人：三十多岁，穿着熨烫过的白衬衫，看上去很英俊，现在稍微皱了一些，脏了一些。
His one arm was stuck in the hole, his cheek was glued to the ground.
他的一只手臂被卡在洞里，脸颊粘在地上。
"Hold tight," he said.
“抓紧，”他说。
And as she held out her hand to him, she couldn't help wondering how it was she always wound up with the oddballs.
当她向他伸出手时，她不禁想知道自己怎么总是和那些奇怪的人在一起。
When he'd started with that nonsense by the car, she thought maybe it was a cute way of hitting on her.
当他开始在车上胡说八道时，她想也许这是一种可爱的搭讪她的方式。
But now she realized the guy with the soft eyes and the bashful smile, really was a nutcase.
但现在她才发现，这个目光柔和，笑容腼腆的男人，真的是个疯子。
His fingers were clasping hers.
他的手指紧握着她的手指。
They stayed that way, frozen for a minute or so, him on the ground, and her standing over him slightly stooped, looking bewildered.
他们就这样呆着，僵硬了一分钟左右，他躺在地上，她站在他身边，微微弯腰，看上去很困惑。
"OK," Natasha whispered, in a gentle, almost therapeutic voice.
“好吧，”Natasha低声说道，声音温柔得近乎治愈。
"So, we're holding hands.
“所以，我们手牵着手。
Now what?"
现在怎么办？”
"Now," Robbie said, "I'll turn the handle."
“现在，”罗比说，“我转动把手。”
It took them a long time to find Igor.
他们花了很长时间才找到伊戈尔。
Igor was in pretty bad shape.
伊戈尔的状态相当糟糕。
His skin was yellow, and he was sweating heavily.
他的皮肤发黄，大汗淋漓。
But when he saw Natasha, his face lit up.
但当他看到娜塔莎时，他的脸亮了起来。
He was so thrilled that he got up and hugged her, even though he could hardly stand.
他太激动了，尽管他几乎站不起来，但还是站起来拥抱了她。
At that point, Natasha started to cry, and asked him to forgive her.
这时，娜塔莎开始哭泣，请求他原谅她。
Because this Igor wasn't just one of her lies, he was also her uncle, a made-up uncle, but still.
因为这个伊戈尔不仅仅是她的谎言之一，他也是她的叔叔，一个虚构的叔叔，但仍然是。
And Igor told her she shouldn't feel bad.
伊戈尔告诉她，她不应该感到难过。
The life she invented for him may not always have been easy, but he enjoyed every minute.
她为他创造的生活可能并不总是一帆风顺，但他享受每一分钟。
And she had nothing to worry about because, compared to the car crash in Minsk, the stick-up in Odessa, the lightning that struck him in Vladivostok, and the pack of rabid wolves in Siberia, this heart attack was small change.
而且她没有什么可担心的，因为与明斯克的车祸、敖德萨的抢劫、符拉迪沃斯托克的闪电、西伯利亚的狂狼相比，这次心脏病发作只是小事一桩。
And when they got back to the gumball machine, Robbie put in a one lira coin, took Natasha's hand and asked her to turn the handle.
当他们回到口香糖球机前时，罗比投入了一枚一里拉的硬币，拉着娜塔莎的手，让她转动手柄。
And when they were back in the yard, she found herself holding a plastic ball with a trinket inside, an ugly, silvery, heart-shaped charm.
当他们回到院子时，她发现自己拿着一个塑料球，里面有一个小饰品，一个丑陋的银色心形吊饰。
"You know," she said, "I was supposed to be going to Sinai tonight for a few days with a girlfriend, but I think I'm going to call it off and go back tomorrow to take care of Igor.
“你知道，”她说，“我本来今晚应该和女朋友一起去西奈几天，但我想我要取消行程，明天再回去照顾伊戈尔。
Would you like to come?"
你愿意来吗？”
Robbie nodded.
罗比点点头。
He knew he'd have to make something up at the office.
他知道他必须在办公室弥补一些事情。
He wasn't quite sure what it would be.
他不太确定那会是什么。
All he knew was that it would be a happy lie, full of flowers and sunshine, maybe even a baby or two.
他只知道这将是一个幸福的谎言，充满鲜花和阳光，甚至可能有一两个婴儿。
And they'd be smiling.
他们会微笑。
Actor Dermot Mulroney reading a story by Etgar Keret.
演员德蒙特·莫罗尼正在朗读埃特加·凯雷特的故事。
The story was translated from the Hebrew by Miriam Schlesinger.
这个故事由米里亚姆·施莱辛格 (Miriam Schlesinger) 从希伯来语翻译而来。
Etgar has a new book of short stories called The Girl in the Fridge.
埃特加有一本新的短篇小说集，名叫《冰箱里的女孩》。
His movie, Jellyfish , is in a handful of theaters around the country.
他的电影《水母》正在全国各地的几家影院上映。
Coming up, yes, when your parents get old, you have to help them run their lives, deal with doctors, handle emergencies, and of course, do their detective work.
接下来，是的，当你的父母变老时，你必须帮助他们经营生活，与医生打交道，处理紧急情况，当然，还有他们的侦探工作。
That's in a minute.
就在一分钟之内。
From Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续进行时，来自芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台。
This American Life, I'm Ira Glass.
这个美国生活，我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week in our show we choose a theme, bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
我们的节目每周都会选择一个主题，为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's show, "The truth will out," stories of people trying to get that rare thing to happen, for the truth to actually come out.
今天的节目“真相终将大白”，讲述人们试图让罕见的事情发生，让真相真正大白的故事。
We've arrived at act two of our program.
我们已经进入了计划的第二幕。
Act two-- "The spy who bugged me." Lawrence Wright got to the bottom of a mystery in his life by reading a front page article in the New York Times a couple of years ago.
第二幕——“窃听我的间谍。”几年前，劳伦斯·赖特通过阅读《纽约时报》头版文章，揭开了他一生中的一个谜团。
Wright is a reporter for the New Yorker Magazine .
赖特是《纽约客》杂志的记者。
And, most important, for the story you're about to hear, he's an expert on Al Qaeda.
而且，最重要的是，对于您将要听到的故事，他是基地组织方面的专家。
He won the Pulitzer prize for his book called, The Looming Tower: Al Qaeda and the Road to 9/11 , which reconstructed how we got to September 11.
他因著作《迫在眉睫的塔：基地组织与 9/11 之路》而获得普利策奖，该书重建了我们如何到达 9 月 11 日。
He's interviewed hundreds of people with links to jihadist organizations, including relatives of Osama bin Laden.
他采访了数百名与圣战组织有联系的人，其中包括奥萨马·本·拉登的亲属。
I got a call from one of those FBI agents that I had previously spoken with.
我接到了之前与我交谈过的一位联邦调查局特工打来的电话。
And he said that he and another member of the Joint Terrorism Task Force in Austin wanted to come visit me.
他说他和奥斯汀联合恐怖主义特别工作组的另一名成员想来看望我。
And I thought it was the same kind of thing, they were asking for guidance.
我认为这是同一类事情，他们在寻求指导。
But it was pretty clear that this was a more formal kind of interrogation.
但很明显，这是一种更正式的审讯。
He and the other man, who was a member of the Food and Drug Administration, a clerk there, they were asking me questions about telephone calls that had been made from my home office number to a number in England.
他和另一个人是食品和药物管理局的一名成员，也是那里的一名职员，他们向我询问有关从我的家庭办公室号码拨打英国号码的电话的问题。
It was a plus 44207 number, and could I tell them who it is?
这是一个 plus 44207 号码，我可以告诉他们这是谁吗？
And I said, well, you don't know?
我说，好吧，你不知道吗？
I mean, it seemed quite a failure of investigation that they couldn't figure out a London telephone number.
我的意思是，他们无法找出伦敦的电话号码，这似乎是一次彻底的调查失败。
But I said, I'll look on my computer.
但我说，我会在电脑上查看。
And so, I looked up on my Palm.
于是，我抬头看了看我的手掌。
And it belonged to Gareth Peirce, who is a solicitor that-- matter of fact, Emma Thompson played her in a movie called, In the Name of the Father.
它属于加雷斯·皮尔斯（Gareth Peirce），她是一名律师，事实上，艾玛·汤普森（Emma Thompson）在一部名为《以父亲之名》的电影中扮演了她。
At that time, she had been representing IRA people, and now she was representing jihadis that I'd been talking to in London.
当时，她代表爱尔兰共和军人民，现在她代表我在伦敦交谈过的圣战分子。
And so I told them who it was.
所以我告诉他们那人是谁。
And then they said, that we understand the person who initiated the calls is a person named Caroline.
然后他们说，据我们所知，发起电话的人是一个名叫卡罗琳的人。
Somebody by that name in the house?
家里有叫这个名字的人吗？
I said, that's my daughter.
我说那是我女儿。
And they said, well, would her last name be Brown?
他们说，好吧，她姓布朗吗？
I said no, but she just graduated from Brown.
我说不，但她刚从布朗大学毕业。
Caroline's name is not on any of our phones.
我们的任何手机上都没有卡罗琳的名字。
So I don't know how her name would have arisen.
所以我不知道她的名字是怎么来的。
What is your feeling as you're hearing this, is it fear, is it confusion?
当你听到这句话时，你有什么感觉，是恐惧，还是困惑？
Describe your state of mind.
描述一下你的心态。
I would describe it as confusion boiling into anger, as I began to realize what must be going on.
当我开始意识到一定发生了什么时，我会把它描述为困惑沸腾成愤怒。
it suggested, they must have gotten information that they overheard.
这表明，他们一定是得到了无意中听到的信息。
And I had assumed that the laws were such as they were written, that in order to listen to an American citizen's telephone conversations, one needs a warrant.
我原以为法律就是这样写的，为了监听美国公民的电话交谈，需要有搜查令。
It seemed really unlikely to me that there had been probable cause for a warrant for me.
对我来说，似乎不太可能有合理的理由对我发出逮捕令。
And I didn't know at that time, nor did most Americans, that there was a secret program under way called the Terrorist Surveillance Program that superseded this.
当时我不知道，大多数美国人也不知道，有一个名为“恐怖分子监视计划”的秘密计划正在实施，该计划将取代这个计划。
And it had been created by the White House, allowing warrantless wiretaps on an untold number of Americans.
它是由白宫创建的，允许对无数美国人进行未经授权的窃听。
So how'd you figure it out?
那么你是怎么想出来的呢？
Lawrence Wright It was in December 2005, and I'd read the New York Times front page story about warrantless wiretaps.
劳伦斯·赖特 (Lawrence Wright) 那是 2005 年 12 月，我读到了《纽约时报》头版关于未经授权窃听的报道。
And I thought, that happened to me.
我想，这发生在我身上。
It was just immediately a moment of recognition that that's what had gone on.
那一刻我立刻意识到这就是所发生的事情。
At once, I connected the dots.
我立刻把这些点联系起来。
The FBI coming to my house with what, obviously, seemed to be actual information that had come from my telephone call.
联邦调查局来到我家，显然带来了我电话中的真实信息。
All of that, suddenly fell into place.
这一切，突然就发生了。
What had been puzzling me all along, was the law as it was written which forbid this kind of government intrusion.
一直令我困惑的是，法律禁止这种政府干预。
How did they know about these calls that I'd been making to London?
他们怎么知道我给伦敦打的这些电话？
And where did they get the name of my daughter?
他们从哪里得到我女儿的名字？
These things had been on the back of my mind for a couple of years.
这些事情已经在我的脑海里萦绕了几年。
I couldn't figure out how, legally, those things could have happened.
我无法弄清楚这些事情是如何在法律上发生的。
And then suddenly, I saw the New York Times story, and I realized that, well maybe it wasn't legal, but this is how they went about it.
然后突然，我看到了《纽约时报》的报道，我意识到，也许这不合法，但这就是他们的做法。
I see, right.
我明白了，对。
And it's interesting, because, one of the things that people started to think about when that story first broke-- I know the question occurred to me, and I'm sure other people as well-- like, oh, does that mean that they've ever listened to me?
这很有趣，因为，当这个故事第一次爆发时，人们开始思考的一件事——我知道我也想到了这个问题，我相信其他人也一样——就像，哦，这是否意味着他们曾经听过我的意见？
The hard part about that story was there's no way to verify because you don't--
这个故事最困难的部分是无法验证，因为你不——
They're not going to tell you.
他们不会告诉你。
So, it strikes me, that you're one of the few people in the country that actually knew they were being targeted by this program.
所以，令我震惊的是，你是这个国家为数不多的真正知道自己成为该计划目标的人之一。
And you ended up talking to the guy in charge of the program.
最后你和负责该项目的人交谈了。
You wrote a profile of Mike McConnell, he's the top dog in United States intelligence, for the New Yorker Magazine.
您为《纽约客》杂志撰写了迈克·麦康奈尔的简介，他是美国情报界的头号人物。
That's correct.
这是正确的。
Alex Blumberg So again, you're in a completely unique position.
Alex Blumberg 再次强调，您处于一个完全独特的位置。
You're one of the few people who actually knows that you were targeted by this wireless surveillance program.
您是少数真正知道自己成为该无线监视程序目标的人之一。
And now, you're writing a profile of the person who's in charge of that program.
现在，您正在撰写该计划负责人的简介。
When did you first to bring up your own experience with this program, with him?
你什么时候第一次向他提出你自己在这个项目上的经历？
The first we had a conversation was in early July last year.
我们第一次谈话是在去年七月初。
And it was a, kind of, get acquainted meeting.
这是一次熟悉的会议。
And he was talking about the thing that was most on his mind, was for him to have more flexibility in accessing calls between people abroad and American citizens or people who might be in America at that time.
他正在谈论他最关心的事情，就是让他能够更灵活地接听国外人士与美国公民或当时可能在美国的人之间的电话。
And I said, in the interest of full disclosure, I want you to know that I've been monitored.
我说，为了充分披露，我想让你们知道我受到了监视。
He seemed a little surprised and taken aback.
他显得有些惊讶和愕然。
And I told him about the FBI coming to my house.
我告诉他联邦调查局来我家的事。
And we went over this conversation three or four different times in the course of our interviews, because he kept coming back to it.
在采访过程中，我们对这段对话进行了三四次不同的讨论，因为他不断地回到这个话题。
It clearly got under his skin.
这显然是在他的皮肤下。
Because I told him about them getting Caroline's name.
因为我告诉他他们得到了卡罗琳的名字。
It really bugs me, because I don't know how her name could have come up.
这真的让我很烦恼，因为我不知道她的名字怎么会出现。
And so he said, well maybe you mentioned her name.
所以他说，也许你提到了她的名字。
Which is what I think that probably happened, but that obviously implies they are listening to it.
我认为这可能发生了，但这显然意味着他们正在听。
And I said, well that troubles me.
我说，这让我很烦恼。
And his response was, it may be troublesome, it may not be.
而他的回答是，可能麻烦，也可能不麻烦。
You don't know.
你不知道。
And of course, that's exactly the position any American citizen would be in.
当然，这正是任何美国公民都会面临的处境。
Did you ask him, is that something that should be happening?
你有没有问过他，这是应该发生的事情吗？
Should your daughter's name-- should that become information that is now in the hands of the intelligence community?
你女儿的名字是否应该成为现在掌握在情报部门手中的信息？
You know, he didn't seem to be particularly disturbed that my daughter's name would have arisen in it.
你知道，他似乎并没有因为我女儿的名字出现在其中而感到特别不安。
His response, essentially, is that I have to trust the government.
他的回答本质上是我必须信任政府。
But first of all, there were profound misunderstandings involved in our case, in my daughter and myself.
但首先，我们的案件、我女儿和我自己之间存在着深刻的误解。
And secondly, we have a history of a government that exceeds its authority and has often intruded on to people's lives such as-- even McConnell and I talked about it.
其次，我们有一个政府超越其权力并经常侵入人们生活的历史，甚至麦康奈尔和我也谈到过这一点。
When he was young, growing up in South Carolina, there were these big billboards on the side of the highway, impeach Earl Warren, who was Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.
当他年轻的时候，在南卡罗来纳州长大的时候，高速公路边有这些大广告牌，弹劾最高法院首席大法官厄尔·沃伦。
And then, it made quite an impression on him, when he got into the intelligence business to learn that the intelligence community, the FBI had actually been wiretapping the Supreme Court Justice's own telephone and other members of the supreme court and of course, Martin Luther King and civil rights activists.
然后，当他进入情报行业并了解到情报界、联邦调查局实际上一直在窃听最高法院法官自己的电话和最高法院其他成员，当然还有马丁·路德·金和民权活动人士时，这给他留下了深刻的印象。
The history of our government's overreaching into the private lives of American citizens is really profound.
我国政府过度干涉美国公民私人生活的历史确实是深刻的。
It's one thing to give the power to the government to try to prevent terrorists from attacking America.
赋予政府阻止恐怖分子袭击美国的权力是一回事。
I understand the thinking about that, but when you actually see it at work, you realize how flawed and human the operators are behind it.
我理解这种想法，但当你真正看到它在工作中时，你就会意识到背后的操作员是多么的缺陷和人性。
And what kinds of mistakes that they can make.
以及他们可能会犯什么样的错误。
They could be potentially very damaging to people's lives.
它们可能对人们的生活造成潜在的严重损害。
I do remember when the FBI and the FDA clerk came to my office, I had a big whiteboard with names of Al Qaeda members written all over it.
我确实记得当联邦调查局和食品和药物管理局的职员来到我的办公室时，我看到一块大白板，上面写满了基地组织成员的名字。
My book was all laid out.
我的书已经全部放好了。
I had thousands and thousands of note cards with bin Laden and Zawahiri and all the members of Al Qaeda, and dozens and dozens of books and so on.
我有成千上万张有关本·拉登、扎瓦希里以及基地组织所有成员的记事卡，还有几十本书籍等等。
Either I was an avid reporter or I was an insider in Al Qaeda.
我要么是一名狂热的记者，要么是基地组织的内部人士。
From the look on the face of the FDA clerk, it was probably the latter.
从FDA工作人员的表情来看，很可能是后者。
He had a bead of sweat on his upper lip.
他的上唇上有一滴汗珠。
He thought he must have stumbled into some den.
他想他一定是误入了某个巢穴。
Is your response to try to let him sweat or is your response to try to reassure him as much as possible?
你的反应是试图让他出汗，还是试图尽可能让他放心？
I thought it was the kind of absurd.
我认为这是一种荒唐的行为。
Because it's one of those moments when you begin to see how it might look in another person's eyes.
因为这是你开始看到别人眼中的样子的时刻之一。
He worked for the Food and Drug Administration.
他曾在食品和药物管理局工作。
This is not his main gig.
这不是他的主要演出。
So, suddenly he comes out, and he comes into this room, and it's just filled with Al Qaeda memorabilia and information, and so on.
所以，他突然出来，走进这个房间，里面堆满了基地组织的纪念品和信息，等等。
And I can see through his eyes, suddenly, that he must feel like, this could really be real.
我可以通过他的眼睛看到，突然间，他一定觉得，这可能真的是真的。
I was a little amused by the look in his face, but I also realized it was kind of dangerous.
我对他脸上的表情感到有点好笑，但我也意识到这有点危险。
That level of misinterpretation could get me in trouble.
这种程度的误解可能会给我带来麻烦。
Have you changed your behavior at all now that you know that your phone calls were listened to, and that the government was acting outside the law as you understood it?
既然您知道您的电话被窃听，并且政府的行为违反了您所理解的法律，那么您是否完全改变了自己的行为？
Has it made you change your behavior, in terms of like, what you say on the phone, how you talk to people, what you leave around the house?
它是否让你改变了你的行为，比如你在电话里说的话、你如何与人交谈、你在家里留下了什么？
Alex, I've been talking to other reporters about this.
亚历克斯，我一直在和其他记者谈论这件事。
You know, there's a dilemma.
你知道，这是一个两难的境地。
I was talking to some Times reporters-- they've been advised by one of their intelligence sources that they should get new cell phones.
我正在与《纽约时报》的一些记者交谈——他们的一位情报来源建议他们应该购买新手机。
ABC had a similar kind of discussion about whether we should all change our phones, or whether we should behave like terrorists by getting disposable cell phones, have a conversation and throw it away.
美国广播公司也进行了类似的讨论，讨论我们是否应该全部更换手机，或者我们是否应该像恐怖分子一样购买一次性手机，进行交谈，然后将其扔掉。
That's the way terrorists evade this kind of monitoring.
这就是恐怖分子逃避这种监控的方式。
I, so far, haven't done that.
我，到目前为止，还没有这样做。
And maybe I'm being naive about it, but there are times when, if I come up on a question that might require a really confidential answer, that I've been more interested in doing it in person than on the phone.
也许我对此很天真，但有时，如果我提出一个可能需要真正保密答案的问题，我会更愿意当面做而不是通过电话。
Have you had a situation where you realize that you know more about Al Qaeda than the people who are supposed to be the experts?
您是否遇到过这样的情况：您意识到您对基地组织的了解比那些应该是专家的人还要多？
All the time.
一直以来。
I mean, it's pretty demoralizing when you are talking to people that are on the Al Qaeda Squad, and they can't pronounce the names of these guys.
我的意思是，当你与基地组织小队的人交谈时，他们无法说出这些人的名字，这非常令人沮丧。
When the head of counterterrorism for the FBI testifies under oath that he doesn't know the difference between a Sunni and a Shiite.
当联邦调查局反恐负责人宣誓作证时，他不知道逊尼派和什叶派之间的区别。
and he thinks that's an irrelevant question.
他认为这是一个无关紧要的问题。
I mean, if you don't know the first thing about the enemy you're fighting, you're always going to be handicapped, blindfolded, deaf-and-dumb.
我的意思是，如果你不了解你正在战斗的敌人的第一件事，你就永远会是残疾的，被蒙住眼睛的，又聋又哑的。
And really, that's the situation that you find.
事实上，这就是你发现的情况。
It seems like, in a weird way, that is the most frustrating thing of this whole thing.
以一种奇怪的方式，这似乎是整件事中最令人沮丧的事情。
If it seemed like they had more information than you do, with their heightened ability, than it would maybe make more sense.
如果他们看起来比你拥有更多的信息，而且他们的能力更强，那么这可能会更有意义。
But it seems like they're doing all this, and it's still not putting them ahead of a single reporter with no special access to anybody and just his own reporting skills.
但看起来他们正在做这一切，但这仍然没有让他们领先于一个没有特殊接触任何人、只有他自己的报道技巧的记者。
I mean, is that too strong?
我是说，这也太强了吧？
No, it's not at all.
不，根本不是。
There are some good people involved in this effort.
有一些好人参与了这项工作。
I'm not denigrating them.
我不是在诋毁他们。
But when I wrote my book, one of the heroes in my book was a native Arabic speaking FBI agent who came closer than anybody to stopping 9/11.
但当我写书时，书中的英雄之一是一位母语为阿拉伯语的联邦调查局特工，他比任何人都更接近阻止 9/11。
He was one of eight Arabic speaking agents in the FBI at that time.
他是当时联邦调查局八名讲阿拉伯语的特工之一。
Now, nearly seven years later, there are nine.
现在，将近七年后，有九个。
And I'm picking on the FBI because they are open about their figures.
我之所以指责联邦调查局，是因为他们对自己的数据持开放态度。
It's true all across the intelligence community.
整个情报界都是如此。
They don't have the kind of people that really understand who these people are, where they come from, and what they're fighting for.
他们没有真正了解这些人是谁、他们来自哪里以及他们为何而战的人。
Who's in the FBI, especially in headquarters seventh floor in Washington?
谁在联邦调查局，特别是在华盛顿总部七楼？
Irish and Italian guys.
爱尔兰人和意大利人。
And if you look at the history of that organization, which made its reputation fighting the mafia and, to some extent, the IRA, it's no wonder that they were successful in fighting against those communities.
如果你看看这个组织的历史，它因与黑手党以及某种程度上与爱尔兰共和军的斗争而闻名，那么他们在与这些社区的斗争中取得了成功也就不足为奇了。
They came from the same neighborhoods.
他们来自同一个街区。
They spoke the same languages.
他们说着同样的语言。
They knew the culture.
他们了解这种文化。
They don't know these people.
他们不认识这些人。
And if you have family in the Middle East, essentially, you are not going to be a candidate to be in America's intelligence community.
如果你在中东有家人，基本上，你就不会成为美国情报界的候选人。
And that rules out almost everybody who fluently, natively speaks not just Arabic, but Farsi, Dari, Pashto, all these languages of these communities that we need to understand so vitally.
这就排除了几乎所有流利、母语不仅是阿拉伯语，还有波斯语、达里语、普什图语的人，这些社区的所有这些语言都是我们非常需要理解的。
We've done such a poor job of understanding, much less penetrating and disrupting that organization simply because we don't have the right people.
我们在理解方面做得很差，更不用说渗透和破坏该组织了，仅仅是因为我们没有合适的人。
Lawrence Wright, talking to This American Life producer Alex Blumberg.
劳伦斯·赖特 (Lawrence Wright) 与《美国生活》制片人亚历克斯·布隆伯格 (Alex Blumberg) 交谈。
Wright is the author of the book The Looming Tower .
赖特是《若隐若现的塔》一书的作者。
Just a few weeks ago, he did another story about Al Qaeda for The New Yorker.
就在几周前，他为《纽约客》撰写了另一篇有关基地组织的报道。
You can read that story for free on the magazine's website, newyorker.com where you can find lots of great stories.
您可以在该杂志的网站 newyorker.com 上免费阅读该故事，在那里您可以找到许多精彩的故事。
Act three-- "Rosa in the Study with the ATM Card." We close today's show about uncovering the truth with a story about how difficult it can be to get to what really happened, even when you're looking at what seems like the simplest kind of crime possible.
第三幕——“罗莎在书房里拿着提款卡”。我们用一个故事来结束今天关于揭露真相的节目，讲述即使你面对的是看似最简单的犯罪行为，了解真实发生的事情是多么困难。
To preserve everybody's privacy in this story, we have changed all their names.
为了保护这个故事中每个人的隐私，我们更改了他们的名字。
And the woman in the story, who is going to remain anonymous, has an elderly dad.
故事中的这位不愿透露姓名的女士有一位年迈的父亲。
He's over 80, and he's has gone through a variety of medical emergencies, kidney stones, growth on scalp, heart attack, blood in his urine, hernia surgery.
他已经 80 多岁了，经历过各种医疗紧急情况，肾结石、头皮生长、心脏病、尿血、疝气手术。
And he has several caretakers who come to his house.
他有几个看护人来到他家。
His daughter steps when there's a crisis.
当有危机时，他的女儿挺身而出。
During a recent visit, my father tells me that Lourdes, who cooks his meals, is on the verge of quitting.
在最近的一次访问中，我父亲告诉我，为他做饭的卢尔德正处于戒烟的边缘。
"It is something about Rosa," my father says.
“这与罗莎有关，”我父亲说。
"You mean they sent her from one of the agencies," I remind him.
“你的意思是他们从某个机构派来了她，”我提醒他。
"I guess so.
“我想是这样。
Anyway, can you deal with it?"
无论如何，你能应付得来吗？”
As my father has aged, he's grown proficient at delegating.
随着我父亲年龄的增长，他越来越擅长委派任务。
Some of this stems from his Parkinson's, but some of it is just my dad.
其中一些源于他的帕金森氏症，但也有一些只是我父亲造成的。
Though he grew up working-class in the depression, his passions run more in the line of those of a rich, country squire: opera, fine wine, domestic servants.
尽管他是在大萧条时期的工人阶级中长大的，但他的热情更多的是富有的乡绅的热情：歌剧、美酒、家仆。
Gradually, he's enlisted a growing army of caretakers to minister to his needs.
渐渐地，他招募了越来越多的看护者来满足他的需要。
Lourdes arrives at his house later that afternoon.
卢尔德当天下午晚些时候抵达他家。
I ask her if there is anything she wants to say.
我问她有什么话想说吗？
"Si," she says pivoting towards my father.
“是，”她转向我父亲说道。
"I'm leaving you, Mr. Ken.
“我要离开你了，肯先生。
There are too many people in your business.
你的企业里有太多人。
Yesterday, you couldn't find your cash.
昨天，你找不到现金了。
And I don't know who this Rosa is.
我不知道这个罗莎是谁。
Why does she have your ATM?
为什么她有你的自动提款机？
I ask you two times Mr. Ken, who is this Rosa?"
我问你两次肯先生，这个罗莎是谁？”
"It sounds like you don't trust her," I say to Lourdes.
“听起来你不信任她，”我对卢尔德说。
"No, she is always whispering, giggling, an ass kisser."
“不，她总是窃窃私语，咯咯笑，是个爱亲屁股的人。”
A couple weeks later, I get a message from my dad's bookkeeper, Amy, the general of my father's army of caretakers.
几周后，我收到了一条来自我父亲的簿记员艾米的消息，艾米是我父亲看守军队的将军。
"I'm looking at your dad's books and there's something going on here," she says ominously.
“我正在看你爸爸的书，里面发生了一些事情，”她不祥地说。
"Please, give me a call as soon as it's convenient."
“请您方便时尽快给我打电话。”
Amy tells me she's discovered strange charges on my dad's Visa card, huge ATM withdrawals, and fat checks signed in an unfamiliar handwriting and made out to a woman named Rosa.
艾米告诉我，她发现我父亲的维萨卡上有奇怪的收费，ATM 机上的巨额取款，以及用陌生笔迹签名的大额支票，抬头都是一位名叫罗莎的女士。
"I'm looking at upwards of $6,000 missing from your dad's checking accounts.
“我发现你父亲的支票账户上少了超过 6,000 美元。
And then there's $20,000 that seems to be missing from his investments," she says.
然后他的投资中似乎还少了 20,000 美元，”她说。
"I never heard of this Rosa before.
“我以前从未听说过这个罗莎。
Your dad says you found her."
你爸爸说你找到了她。”
For the rest of the day, my brother and I are on the phone with Amy getting updates on her accounting discoveries.
在这一天剩下的时间里，我和我的兄弟都在打电话给艾米，了解她的会计发现的最新情况。
For a long time, we kids have felt my father is pressing his luck living alone.
很长一段时间以来，我们这些孩子都觉得父亲独自生活在压榨他的运气。
Amy calls to say she has gone over to my father's and confronted him.
艾米打电话说她已经去了我父亲那里并与他对质。
Apparently, he told her it was all easily explained.
显然，他告诉她这一切都很容易解释。
He had lent Rosa money for her mortgage.
他借给罗莎钱作为她的抵押贷款。
Amy says, she asked to see the paperwork for the loan, and he refused.
艾米说，她要求查看贷款文件，但他拒绝了。
Then he said it was a gift.
然后他说这是一份礼物。
Then he said he didn't remember.
然后他说他不记得了。
Amy goes on, "I found these weird charges, like one at Macy's and another Victoria's Secret," she says.
艾米继续说道，“我发现了这些奇怪的收费，就像梅西百货的一项和维多利亚的秘密的另一项，”她说。
"Your father says, he was out with Rosa, and she saw some jewelry, and so he bought it for her.
“你父亲说，他和罗莎出去了，她看到了一些珠宝，所以他给她买了它。
He said it was only $40.
他说只要40美元。
And I said, but Ken, the charge was for almost $100.
我说，但是肯，费用将近 100 美元。
And he said, oh well, maybe that was it." Then she adds, "Lourdes told me she thinks Rosa is a prostitute, because of how she acts and dresses.
他说，哦，好吧，也许就是这样。”然后她补充道，“卢尔德告诉我，她认为罗莎是妓女，因为她的行为和穿着。
She says she thinks your father has fallen in love with her."
她说她认为你父亲已经爱上她了。”
Apparently, Lourdes has told Amy that she's been cleaning up a lot of dinners for two with wine glasses, which she took to be signs that Rosa was visiting him at night.
显然，卢尔德告诉艾米，她一直在用酒杯清理很多两人的晚餐，她认为这是罗莎晚上来拜访他的迹象。
I get this awful feeling.
我有这种可怕的感觉。
Amy tells me she has a plan.
艾米告诉我她有一个计划。
She wants to go to my father's house tomorrow morning when Rosa is scheduled to pick up my father for a dentist appointment.
她想去我父亲家，明天早上罗莎计划去接我父亲去看牙医。
The plan is to confront Rosa and get to the bottom of this.
计划是与罗莎对峙并查出真相。
Amy's husband, who happens to be a high-ranking military officer just home from Iraq, will also help.
艾米的丈夫恰好是一位刚从伊拉克回国的高级军官，他也会提供帮助。
She wants me to be there too.
她希望我也在那里。
The next morning, I drive south through the oaky hills of central California to my father's home.
第二天早上，我开车向南穿过加利福尼亚州中部橡树丛生的山丘，来到我父亲的家。
As I approach, the weedy medians give way to manicured landscaping, roses, carved bushes, and lawns clipped like French velvet.
当我走近时，杂草丛生的中央地带被修剪整齐的景观、玫瑰、雕刻的灌木丛和修剪得像法国天鹅绒的草坪所取代。
My father had once cultivated a similarly refined community of friends, people with multiple homes, colleagues with charitable trusts, but now that's changed.
我父亲曾经培养过一个类似的精致社区，由朋友、拥有多个住房的人、拥有慈善信托基金的同事组成，但现在情况发生了变化。
Though he still lives in the same place, his friends mostly include his caretakers and their families.
虽然他仍然住在同一个地方，但他的朋友主要包括他的看护人和他们的家人。
A lot of them live paycheck to paycheck.
他们中的很多人都是靠工资过日子的。
He hear stories about broken hearts and broken down cars, bouts of depression and unemployment, and tells them to me.
他听到了有关破碎的心、抛锚的汽车、抑郁症和失业的故事，并把它们讲给我听。
When I arrive, my father sits in the monstrous Naugahyde recliner we bought for him, a veritable throne of old age.
当我到达时，父亲坐在我们为他买的巨大的诺加海德躺椅上，那是名副其实的老年王座。
C-SPAN is on, as it often is.
C-SPAN 一如既往地处于开启状态。
When Amy and her husband, Mike, pull up, I meet them outside.
当艾米和她的丈夫迈克停下来时，我在外面遇见了他们。
Mike is wearing crisply ironed fatigues and army boots.
迈克穿着熨烫得干干净净的迷彩服和军靴。
We enter the house, and Amy bends down to my father and hugs him.
我们走进房子，艾米向我父亲弯下腰拥抱他。
She broaches the subject of Rosa's use of his Visa over the weekend, which my father gave her to buy herself some hospital scrubs for a new job.
她谈到罗莎周末使用他的签证的话题，这是我父亲给她的，是为了给自己买一些医院的工作服，以便找到新工作。
"We're looking at nearly $700 spent at Target and Walmart," Amy says.
“我们在塔吉特和沃尔玛花费了近 700 美元，”艾米说。
"If it turns out she's stolen this money, do you agree to press charges?"
“如果事实证明这笔钱是她偷的，你同意提出指控吗？”
My father looks at her, "You haven't met her.
父亲看着她：“你没见过她。”
You can't just accuse someone.
你不能只是指责某人。
You don't even know her."
你根本不认识她。”
"Ken, I don't need to know her.
“肯，我不需要认识她。
I have the evidence right here.
我这里有证据。
What kind of services is she providing to you, Ken?" she asks.
她为你提供什么样的服务，肯？”她问道。
"Nothing." Her face is inches from his.
“没什么。”她的脸距离他的只有几英寸。
"I know this is hard for you to accept that someone you care for is taking advantage of you, but what's going on is just not right."
“我知道你很难接受你所关心的人在利用你，但现在发生的事情是不对的。”
"You shouldn't accuse her.
“你不应该指责她。
You need to talk to her first." My father bangs his hand on the arm of the chair, "God damn it.
你需要先和她谈谈。”我父亲用手敲着椅子的扶手，“该死的。
I've told you everything is all right, and it is.
我已经告诉过你一切都好，确实如此。
If you won't listen to me, you can get out of my house." His hands are shaking, but not the loose trembling that comes from neurological misfiring.
如果你不听我的话，你就可以滚出我的房子。”他的手在颤抖，但不是神经失灵带来的松散的颤抖。
It's concentrated rage.
这是集中的愤怒。
Amy stands, "You want me to leave?
艾米站起来，“你想让我走吗？
I'm leaving." Mike stands, holding Amy's coat for her.
我要走了。”迈克站起来，替艾米抓着外套。
Amy turns to dad, "It won't break my business, losing you as a client, but it will break my heart."
艾米转向爸爸，“失去你这个客户不会影响我的生意，但会让我心碎。”
As she walks towards the door, I look at my father, "Dad, say something."
当她向门口走去时，我看着父亲：“爸爸，说句话。”
My dad relents, "I don't really want you to go," he says.
我爸爸态度软化了，“我真的不想让你走，”他说。
"I just don't want you yelling at this woman."
“我只是不想让你对这个女人大喊大叫。”
We sit and wait.
我们坐下来等待。
Finally, an old-model American car pulls up.
终于，一辆老式美国车停了下来。
We peer through the windows, careful not to tip her off.
我们透过窗户往外看，小心翼翼地不让她知道。
Then Rosa walks in.
然后罗莎走了进来。
She's wearing baggy layers over a heavyset frame.
她在粗壮的身躯上穿着宽松的衣服。
Her hair is cut short.
她的头发剪短了。
She wears no makeup.
她没有化妆。
She bears no resemblance to the Victoria Secret-wearing wine-swilling seductress I had imagined.
她与我想象中的那个穿着维多利亚的秘密、酗酒的诱惑者一点也不像。
She walks into the room and kisses my father on the cheek.
她走进房间，亲吻我父亲的脸颊。
"How are you, Ken?" she asks.
“你怎么样，肯？”她问。
Then she looks around, noticing the strange faces in the room.
然后她环顾四周，注意到房间里有一张张陌生的面孔。
Amy, Mike and I introduce ourselves and shake hands with her.
艾米、迈克和我自我介绍并与她握手。
Mike stand sentry at the door.
迈克在门口站岗。
Amy asks her to sit down and tells her that there's money missing from Ken's accounts.
艾米请她坐下，并告诉她肯的账户上少了钱。
We ask her about getting a loan or a gift from Ken.
我们向她询问有关从肯那里获得贷款或礼物的问题。
She looks baffled and turns to my father, "No, Ken, I earned that money.
她看起来很困惑，转向我父亲，“不，肯，那些钱是我赚的。
Remember, I spent 10 days here, 12 hour shifts." My father nods.
记住，我在这里呆了 10 天，轮班 12 小时。”我父亲点点头。
I explain, "It's that he can't exactly recall how this money has been spent, but he's spending it a lot faster than he has in the past."
我解释道：“他记不清这笔钱是怎么花的，但他花的速度比以前快了很多。”
She looks at me pleadingly, "I'm sorry," she says quietly.
她恳求地看着我，“对不起，”她轻声说道。
"I thought he was alert."
“我以为他很警觉。”
Point by point, Amy goes over his suspicious expenditures.
艾米逐条检查了他的可疑支出。
At every point, Rosa defends herself.
在每一点上，罗莎都在为自己辩护。
All the hours she's been working, neither she nor Ken kept track, but she says they were extensive.
她和肯都没有记录她工作的所有时间，但她说工作时间很长。
The Visa use over the weekend, she bought a lot of scrubs and planned to pay my father back.
周末利用Visa，她买了很多磨砂膏，打算还给我父亲。
Since my father gives out his ATM card to all his caretakers, she can't really be expected to explain all the withdrawals.
由于我父亲把他的 ATM 卡发给了他所有的看护人，所以不能指望她解释所有的取款情况。
She says the checks made out to her name were payment for more work.
她说，以她的名义开出的支票是为了支付更多的工作费用。
I don't know what to think.
我不知道该怎么想。
The relationship between my father and his caretakers is so intimate.
我父亲和他的照顾者之间的关系是如此亲密。
They do stuff for him I won't do, all for a few bucks an hour.
他们为他做一些我不会做的事情，而且都是每小时几块钱。
It hardly seems crazy that my father and Rosa might have had long talks over dinner, that my father would have wanted to repay her kindness, and that Rosa would have wanted to accept.
我父亲和罗莎在晚餐时进行了长时间的交谈，我父亲想要报答她的好意，罗莎也想要接受，这似乎并不疯狂。
Still, I can tell Amy remains unmoved.
尽管如此，我可以看出艾米仍然不为所动。
For her, the numbers tell the whole story.
对她来说，数字说明了整个故事。
If I defend Rosa, dad will lose both Lourdes and Amy, and I still won't know what happened.
如果我捍卫罗莎，爸爸就会失去卢尔德和艾米，而我仍然不知道发生了什么。
With halfhearted logic, I decide she's crossed some professional line Even if she isn't swindling my dad, caretakers shouldn't go shopping for jewelry with their clients or use the client's ATM card to buy hundreds of dollars' worth of clothing.
凭着三心二意的逻辑，我认为她已经跨越了一些职业界限。即使她没有骗我爸爸，看护人也不应该和客户一起去购买珠宝，或者使用客户的 ATM 卡购买价值数百美元的衣服。
When I tell Rosa she can't work for Ken anymore, she looks like she doesn't know what hit her.
当我告诉罗莎她不能再为肯工作时，她看起来似乎不知道是什么打击了她。
I watched her lean over him and whisper in his ear.
我看着她靠在他身上，在他耳边低语。
I realize, if this were a movie, and I were watching this scene, I know one thing for sure.
我意识到，如果这是一部电影，并且我正在观看这个场景，我肯定知道一件事。
I'd hate the daughter.
我会讨厌这个女儿。
After it happened, we really didn't talk about it.
事情发生后，我们真的没有再谈论这件事。
I wondered if he was angry at us, or if he just wanted to forget the whole incident.
我想知道他是否生我们的气，或者他只是想忘记整个事件。
He's 81 and tires easily.
他已经 81 岁了，很容易疲劳。
But I thought that if I could just get him to tell me what he thought happened, I could stop guessing.
但我想，如果我能让他告诉我他认为发生了什么，我就可以停止猜测。
Well, what do you remember?
嗯，你还记得什么？
I mean, do you remember giving her a loan, or do you remember giving her gifts?
我的意思是，你记得给过她贷款，或者你记得给过她礼物吗？
Yes, I gave her $1,000 because she had a $3,000 mortgage.
是的，我给了她 1,000 美元，因为她有 3,000 美元的抵押贷款。
She was divorced.
她离婚了。
She didn't have a lot of money.
她没有很多钱。
She was in transition from one job to another.
她正从一份工作转向另一份工作。
And I helped her out.
我帮助了她。
And did you feel like, did you think at some point that it was a loan or a gift?
您是否觉得，您是否在某个时候认为这是一笔贷款或一份礼物？
I guess originally, I thought of it as a loan, but I think as time went on, I assumed it would be a gift because she just couldn't pay it back in any reasonable time.
我想最初，我认为这是一笔贷款，但我认为随着时间的推移，我认为这将是一份礼物，因为她无法在任何合理的时间内偿还。
And that was fine with me.
这对我来说很好。
It still was helpful to her, and I felt good about it.
这对她还是有帮助的，我对此感觉很好。
So, how did you feel when people started to question your judgment?
那么，当人们开始质疑你的判断力时，你有何感受？
Well, I didn't like it of course, because I felt like it was my own business, what I did with my money.
嗯，我当然不喜欢它，因为我觉得这是我自己的事，我用我的钱做什么。
You know, you might be heir to my money, but you don't control it now, right?
你知道，你可能是我的钱的继承人，但你现在无法控制它，对吧？
Right.
对。
Ken I feel like I've been misrepresented on the situation, that I can't take care of myself.
肯，我觉得我在这种情况下被歪曲了，我无法照顾自己。
And that I somewhat resented it, because I felt like I was in control.
我有点怨恨它，因为我觉得我能控制一切。
You know, I know these things happen, where these older people get taken.
你知道，我知道这些事情会发生，这些老年人被带走。
I just didn't feel like I was one of them.
我只是觉得自己不是他们中的一员。
Even if she had taken me for every dime, it wouldn't be a big deal.
即使她拿走了我的每一毛钱，也没什么大不了的。
It's not a lot of money.
钱不多。
It also made me feel like, you're were kind of feeling a certain kind of sympathy.
这也让我觉得，你感受到了某种同情。
Where you were like, even if she stole several thousand bucks from me, that's not a big deal.
你这样的话，就算她偷了我几千块钱，也没什么大不了的。
She's struggling, she's got little kids.
她很挣扎，她还有小孩。
Right, absolutely.
对，绝对是。
Absolutely, that's part of it.
当然，这是其中的一部分。
From what I understand, she's a good mother.
据我了解，她是一位好母亲。
She just struggles to get along.
她只是努力相处。
Anyway, I'm tired of talking about it.
无论如何，我已经厌倦谈论它了。
OK.
好的。
My father never used to seem like someone who lost sleep over other people's troubles, especially people radically different from him.
我的父亲从来都不像一个因为别人的烦恼而失眠的人，尤其是那些与他截然不同的人。
But now I think he might.
但现在我想他可能会。
Amy the bookkeeper tells me, she's always canceling generous contributions he makes to far flung charities he's seen on late night TV.
簿记员艾米告诉我，她总是取消他在深夜电视上看到的对遥远慈善机构的慷慨捐款。
She thinks these bouts of insomniac philanthropy are a sign he's not looking out for his own best interests.
她认为这些失眠的慈善事业表明他没有考虑自己的最大利益。
But I'm not so sure.
但我不太确定。
What if instead, my father is becoming the person we all want to be, someone who doesn't fixate on the bottom line, but empathizes with people in need.
如果相反，我的父亲正在成为我们都想成为的人，一个不关注底线，而是同情有需要的人的人，该怎么办？
Then again, as I'm getting ready to go home after our interview, I hear my dad talking on the phone, making an appointment, giving out his address.
然而，当我面试结束后准备回家时，我听到我爸爸在打电话，预约，给出他的地址。
When I inquire who it was, he says it was a very nice guy selling reverse mortgages.
当我询问他是谁时，他说这是一个销售反向抵押贷款的非常好的人。
"A telemarketer," I ask, "coming to your home?"
“电话推销员，”我问，“到你家来吗？”
"Don't worry," he says, playing with the remote control.
“别担心，”他一边说，一边摆弄着遥控器。
"I know what I'm doing."
“我知道我在做什么。”
Well our show was produced today by our senior producer, Julie Snyder and myself with Alex Blumberg, Jane Feltes, Sarah Koenig, Lisa Pollak, Robyn Semien, Lisa Shipley, and Nancy Updike.
我们的节目今天由我们的高级制片人朱莉·斯奈德和我与亚历克斯·布伦伯格、简·菲尔特斯、莎拉·科尼格、丽莎·波拉克、罗宾·塞米恩、丽莎·希普利和南希·厄普代克共同制作。
Adrianne Mathiowetz runs our website.
阿德琳娜·马修韦茨 (Adrianne Mathiowetz) 负责运营我们的网站。
Production help Seth Lind, Odette Yousef.
制作助理 Seth Lind、Odette Yousef。
Music help from Jessica Hopper.
杰西卡·霍珀的音乐帮助。
Special thanks to Bob Carlson and Sarah Vowell.
特别感谢鲍勃·卡尔森和莎拉·沃威尔。
Our website-- www.ThisAmericanLife.org.
我们的网站——www.ThisAmericanLife.org。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management are excited for our program by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia, who knocked on my door at 5:00 in the morning today, unshaved and disheveled, looking like hell.
[资金来源] WBEZ 管理层对我们的老板 Torey Malatia 先生的计划感到很兴奋，他今天早上 5:00 敲了我的门，胡子拉碴，头发蓬乱，看上去就像地狱一样。
He explained it this way, "My dead mother appeared in my dream and asked me to buy her gumball.
他是这样解释的：“我死去的母亲出现在我的梦里，让我给她买口香糖。
So I came here to look for change."
所以我来这里是为了寻求改变。”
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
PRI Public Radio International.
PRI 国际公共广播电台。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。