353: The Audacity of Government - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #353 | March 28, 2008 353: The Audacity of Government Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 353 集 | 2008 年 3 月 28 日 353：政府的大胆 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass You probably missed this.
序言 Ira Glass 你可能错过了这个。
It wasn't big news this week.
本周这不是什么大新闻。
Congressman Charles Schumer of New York held a press conference on Monday with the head of the New York City police.
纽约州众议员查尔斯·舒默周一与纽约市警察局长举行了新闻发布会。
Two auxiliary policemen had been shot and killed in the line of duty a year ago while confronting a gunman named David Garvin.
一年前，两名辅警在执行任务时与一名名叫大卫·加文的枪手对峙时被枪杀。
Federal law says that the families of public safety officers, even volunteers like these auxiliary police, should get death benefits when something like that happens.
联邦法律规定，公共安全官员的家属，甚至像这些辅警这样的志愿者，在发生类似情况时都应该获得死亡抚恤金。
But the Justice Department turned them down on a technicality, and on Monday Schumer was mad.
但司法部以技术问题为由拒绝了他们，周一舒默很生气。
The officers, they were in uniform, they had shields.
军官们，他们穿着制服，带着盾牌。
They had gone through four months of the NYPD's basic training course.
他们已经完成了纽约警察局四个月的基础培训课程。
They acted to protect their fellow New Yorkers that night as trained, experienced, NYPD volunteers.
那天晚上，他们作为训练有素、经验丰富的纽约警察局志愿者，采取行动保护纽约同胞。
What more could the Justice Department be asking for?
司法部还能要求什么呢？
Yet they disagree.
但他们不同意。
They don't qualify as officers of the peace through a faulty, narrow interpretation of the law that says because they didn't have the authority to arrest Mr. Garvin, they don't qualify.
由于对法律的错误而狭隘的解释，他们没有资格成为治安官员，因为他们没有权力逮捕加文先生，所以他们没有资格。
Auxiliary officers have the power to detain a suspect, but not to arrest him.
辅助警官有权拘留嫌疑人，但无权逮捕他。
It's as if the bureaucrats in Washington were looking for a way to get out of this responsibility.
华盛顿的官僚们似乎正在寻找一种方法来摆脱这种责任。
And what we have to do is persuade the Justice Department to stop playing these tawdry and really low games.
我们要做的就是说服司法部停止玩这些庸俗且低级的游戏。
Just a couple months ago, the family of volunteer fireman Glenn Winuk finally got the Justice Department to pay his death benefit.
就在几个月前，志愿消防员格伦·威努克的家人终于让司法部支付了他的死亡抚恤金。
He died on September 11, at the World Trade Center, doing rescue work at the south tower.
9月11日，他在世贸中心南塔进行救援工作时去世。
Again, the department had fought the benefit on a technicality, and only paid after five years of fighting, when the federal courts ordered them to.
再次，该部门在技术上与该福利进行了斗争，并且在联邦法院命令他们这样做时，经过五年的斗争才支付。
There is a style to this administration, what Yale Law professor Jack Balkin calls a "lawyering" style, where they fight as hard as they can every battle on all fronts, unrelentingly to get their way.
这届政府有一种风格，耶鲁大学法学教授杰克·巴尔金（Jack Balkin）称之为“律师”风格，他们在各条战线上的每场战斗中都竭尽全力，不屈不挠地以自己的方式行事。
It's been an emphasis on taking extremely hard line positions on executive power and pushing them, really, as far as you can.
它一直强调对行政权力采取极其强硬的立场，并尽可能地推动它们。
Sometimes taking positions that would be seen to be unreasonable in the hopes that, in fact, either you'll get your way, because people will give in, or else, if they push back, they'll push back to a place where you actually get a lot of what you wanted in the first place.
有时采取被认为不合理的立场，实际上是希望要么你能如愿以偿，因为人们会屈服，要么，如果他们反对，他们会退回到一个让你实际上得到很多你一开始想要的东西的地方。
For example, he says, take the way the administration has tried to get around the ban on torture.
他说，以政府试图绕过酷刑禁令的方式为例。
This is an area where the law had been thought to be completely clear.
这是一个法律被认为是完全明确的领域。
There are lots of statutes, there are treaties, that all made torture illegal in the United States.
在美国，有很多法规和条约都将酷刑定为非法。
But the administration had several strategies to get around these.
但政府有几种策略来解决这些问题。
One strategy was simply to define the word torture, or cruel, inhuman, degrading treatment, in such a narrow way that they didn't capture a lot of what ordinary citizens would think of as being torture.
一种策略是简单地定义“酷刑”或残忍、不人道、有辱人格的待遇这个词，其定义非常狭隘，以至于没有涵盖很多普通公民认为的酷刑。
So what it is is just very narrow construction, unreasonable construction.
所以这就是非常狭隘的建设、不合理的建设。
But the most interesting argument, the most innovative argument, the Bush administration made was this.
但布什政府提出的最有趣、最具创新性的论点是这个。
That if push came to shove, and somebody were to claim that the president was in violation of the anti-torture statute, and the War Crimes Act, and all these other things, well these laws are simply unconstitutional as applied to the president when the president acts as commander-in-chief.
如果到了紧要关头，有人声称总统违反了反酷刑法、战争罪法以及所有其他法律，那么当总统担任总司令时，这些法律适用于总统，那么这些法律就是违宪的。
Now that claim, the last claim, which was the president can't be bound by Congress when he acts in his capacity as commander-in-chief was, in fact, the most radical of all of the claims.
现在，最后一个主张，即总统在以总司令身份行事时不受国会约束，实际上是所有主张中最激进的。
It was close to the idea of the president as dictator.
这与总统作为独裁者的想法很接近。
Since the president, when he acts in his capacity as commander-in-chief, can basically rule by decree.
由于总统以总司令的身份行事时，基本上可以通过法令进行统治。
And he can't be bound by laws to the contrary.
他不能受到相反的法律约束。
There are really two things about this that are new.
这确实有两件事是新的。
First is the sheer inventiveness with which the president's men go about asserting the president's powers.
首先是总统的手下在维护总统权力时所表现出的十足的创造力。
They're using tactics and arguments that other presidents have not used, or used rarely.
他们使用的策略和论点是其他总统没有使用过或很少使用的。
Second, and more important, the president is claiming that he has all kinds of powers the previous presidents have not claimed.
其次，更重要的是，总统声称他拥有前任总统未曾声称的各种权力。
The president's men say that everything the executive branch does-- and, picture, that is a lot of things.
总统的手下说，行政部门所做的一切——而且，图片上，有很多事情。
These are the federal agencies that oversee the environment, and immigration, and education and energy policy.
这些联邦机构负责监督环境、移民、教育和能源政策。
And especially when it comes to the job of commander-in-chief of the armed forces, they say nobody, no law, even a law passed by Congress and signed by the president himself, no law can tell the president what to do or how to do it.
特别是当谈到武装部队总司令的工作时，他们说没有人，没有法律，即使是国会通过并由总统亲自签署的法律，也没有法律可以告诉总统该做什么或如何做。
They say it's unconstitutional.
他们说这是违宪的。
This is such a radically new idea that even some conservatives have trouble with it.
这是一个全新的想法，甚至一些保守派也对此感到困惑。
When the president was ignoring a law called the FISA law-- the FISA law says that if the president wants to spy on Americans' phone calls and emails, he can do that, but first he has to get permission from a special secret court to do it.
当总统无视一项名为《外国情报监视法》的法律时，《外国情报监视法》规定，如果总统想要监视美国人的电话和电子邮件，他可以这样做，但首先他必须获得特别秘密法庭的许可才能这样做。
When the president declared that he could just ignore that law, that law that is specifically targeted at his behavior, George Will said that this was a monarchical doctrine that was quote "refuted by the plain text of the Constitution." Grover Norquist said quote "There is no excuse for violating the law." Paul Weyrich wondered, what if a president he didn't like decided he could ignore any law.
当总统宣布他可以无视这项法律，这项专门针对他的行为的法律时，乔治·威尔说，这是一项君主制学说，被引用“被宪法的明文驳斥”。格罗弗·诺奎斯特说：“没有任何借口可以违反法律。”保罗·韦里奇想知道，如果一位他不喜欢的总统决定他可以无视任何法律怎么办？
He worried, what would a president Hillary do with these same powers?
他担心，希拉里总统会用同样的权力做什么？
Today we're going to talk about this lawyering style, this unrelenting style that the administration has.
今天我们要讨论的是这种律师风格，政府的这种不屈不挠的风格。
It's a style that kind of makes sense, when you're dealing with issues of national security and keeping the country safe-- with big stuff.
当你用大东西处理国家安全问题并维护国家安全时，这种风格是有意义的。
But this style has become a habit.
但这种风格已经成为一种习惯。
It seems to be applied to almost anything, even death benefits for firemen and police.
它似乎适用于几乎所有事情，甚至包括消防员和警察的死亡抚恤金。
Well from WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life , distributed by Public Radio International, I'm Ira Glass.
这是 WBEZ 芝加哥的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行，我是 Ira Glass。
Our show today, The Audacity of Government.
我们今天的节目是《政府的大胆》。
We're going to talk about this style the administration has.
我们将讨论政府的这种风格。
This unrelenting style.
这种不屈不挠的风格。
We have two stories for you.
我们有两个故事给你听。
Not about big things, not about big government policies.
不是关于大事情，不是关于大政府政策。
These are tiny examples.
这些都是小例子。
Two of the thousands of little things that the federal government does that most of us never, ever hear about.
联邦政府所做的数千件小事中有两件是我们大多数人从未听说过的。
Things so small that it is hard to understand why the administration is putting up such a fight about them in the first place.
事情是如此之小，以至于很难理解为什么政府一开始就对它们进行如此激烈的斗争。
We look for answers.
我们寻找答案。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act one, The Commish versus the Prez.
第一幕，康米什与总统。
OK, let's stop and think for a second, and try to imagine the least controversial thing our government does when it comes to foreign policy.
好吧，让我们停下来想一想，试着想象一下我们的政府在外交政策方面所做的最没有争议的事情。
And I'm sure that there's some job out there stamping custom forms at the airports, or something like that, that is very, very, very, very uncontroversial.
我确信在机场有一些工作在定制表格上盖章，或者类似的东西，这是非常非常非常没有争议的。
But, certainly, right up alongside that vital but boring task is the task of keeping crap off the border with Canada.
但是，当然，除了这项重要但无聊的任务之外，还有一项任务是阻止垃圾进入加拿大边境。
That's right.
这是正确的。
For 10 feet on either side of our Canadian border, in what is called the 20 foot swath, or the border vista, nobody is supposed to build any buildings, or plant any trees, or erect any fences or do anything that would block the view.
在加拿大边境两侧 10 英尺的范围内，也就是所谓的 20 英尺带或边境远景，任何人都不得建造任何建筑物、种植任何树木、竖起任何栅栏或做任何遮挡视线的事情。
It's impossible to patrol the border if we can't actually see it and monitor it with security cameras and move freely along it.
如果我们不能真正看到边界并用安全摄像头监控边界并沿着边界自由移动，就不可能巡逻边界。
And so 10 feet on either side of the border is always kept clear, for the security of both countries.
因此，为了两国的安全，边界两侧 10 英尺的距离始终保持畅通。
Since the year 1908, this important job has been done by a special international commission run by two guys-- one from Canada, one from the US.
自 1908 年以来，这项重要工作一直由一个特别国际委员会完成，该委员会由两个人领导——一个来自加拿大，一个来自美国。
They make the official map of the border, they put up little markers indicating where the border is.
他们制作了边界的官方地图，并放置了一些小标记来指示边界在哪里。
And occasionally, just a couple times a year, they have to tell somebody not to build 10 feet from the border.
有时，一年只有几次，他们不得不告诉别人不要在距离边境 10 英尺的地方建造建筑。
So you're looking right into Canada is what you're doing right now.
所以你现在正在做的就是关注加拿大。
And you can just barely see the mountains today, just barely.
今天你几乎看不到山脉，只是勉强看到。
But they really are, they're magnificent.
但他们确实如此，他们很伟大。
And that's what we wanted.
这就是我们想要的。
We wanted something that was peaceful and quiet.
我们想要一些平和安静的东西。
72-year-old retiree Shirley Leu, and her husband Herbert, moved here to Blaine, Washington.
72 岁的退休人员雪莉·卢 (Shirley Leu) 和她的丈夫赫伯特 (Herbert) 搬到了华盛顿州布莱恩市。
To a piece of land right on the border, in 2003.
2003年，到了边境上的一块土地。
It is not entirely peaceful and quiet.
它并不完全和平与安静。
They're just up the road from the third busiest border crossing between the United States and Canada.
他们就在美国和加拿大之间第三繁忙的过境点的路上。
There are helicopters and border patrol and sensors in the ground and from her backyard you can see a watch tower.
地面上有直升机、边境巡逻队和传感器，从她的后院你可以看到一座了望塔。
People are illegally crossing all the time.
人们一直在非法穿越。
The border itself is a ditch at the back end of her land.
边界本身是她土地后端的一条沟渠。
And the Leus accidentally started an international incident, one that may lead to the dismantling of a hundred year old treaty, and a redefinition of the president's powers.
留斯号无意中引发了一场国际事件，这可能会导致一百年前的条约被废除，并重新定义总统的权力。
And they did it by building a wall.
他们通过建造一堵墙来做到这一点。
A wall near the edge of their property.
他们财产边缘附近的一堵墙。
A wall.
一堵墙。
That lots of people seem to hate.
很多人似乎都讨厌这一点。
A wall--
一堵墙——
That everybody takes pictures of when they stop their cars, and shake their heads.
每个人停车时都会拍照并摇头。
[HORN HONKING] Shirley Leu See what I mean?
[喇叭喇叭] Shirley Leu 明白我的意思吗？
They beep horns.
他们鸣响喇叭。
They moon us.
他们月亮我们。
They threw garbage at our wall.
他们向我们的墙壁扔垃圾。
The wall is four feet high, maybe 85 feet long and it's solid, concrete with rebar inside.
这堵墙高 4 英尺，长约 85 英尺，是坚固的混凝土墙，里面有钢筋。
Designed to keep Shirley's land from eroding into the ditch at the border.
旨在防止雪莉的土地被边界的沟渠侵蚀。
And, she said in the past, to hold the show dogs that she raises.
而且，她过去说过，要抱住她养的表演犬。
Pomeranians, and poodles.
博美犬和贵宾犬。
It's inside our property line.
它在我们的地产范围内。
And when we bought the land there was nothing on our deed, or nothing on any of the old records, saying that there was a 20 foot swath there.
当我们购买这块土地时，我们的契约上或任何旧记录上都没有任何内容表明那里有 20 英尺的狭带。
No restrictions on where you could put anything.
对于放置任何东西的位置没有任何限制。
No restrictions at all, on any of our papers.
我们的任何论文都没有任何限制。
And when my contractor went down to the city and county of Blaine, they didn't have any restrictions on it.
当我的承包商去布莱恩市和县时，他们对此没有任何限制。
You basically showed them, here's what we're going to build.
您基本上向他们展示了，这就是我们要构建的内容。
You showed them plans, drawing of the--
你向他们展示了计划、图纸——
We took down a plan.
我们记下了一个计划。
Ira Glass And the drawing of the lot.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）和抽签。
Hm-mmm.
嗯嗯。
Ira Glass And they looked at it, they said fine.
Ira Glass 他们看了之后说很好。
Yep.
是的。
They said it was perfectly OK, go ahead and build it.
他们说完全没问题，继续建造吧。
So how did you hear that your wall had become the matter of an international dispute?
那么你是怎么听说你的隔离墙已经成为国际争端的问题的呢？
A guy came to the door, and knocked on the door, and handed me a pamphlet, and said I broke the treaty.
一个人来到门口，敲了敲门，递给我一本小册子，说我违反了条约。
No, I just stood there with my mouth wide open and looked at him.
没有，我只是站在那里张大嘴巴看着他。
And I said, I don't understand, I broke a treaty?
我说，我不明白，我违反了条约？
What treaty?
什么条约？
Surprisingly, it's relatively rare.
令人惊讶的是，这种情况相对罕见。
We maybe get one or two instances per year.
我们每年可能会遇到一到两个实例。
But most people that live along the boundary know about the boundary.
但大多数居住在边界沿线的人都知道边界。
They know about the restriction on building permanent obstructions within 10 feet of the boundary line.
他们知道在边界线 10 英尺范围内禁止修建永久性障碍物。
This is Dennis Schornack, he was the US Representative to the International Boundary Commission at the time.
这是丹尼斯·肖纳克，他当时是美国驻国际边界委员会的代表。
And if all of this sounds like a lot of fuss over a three foot encroachment to our 5,500 mile border with Canada, you have to understand that the two boundary commissioners see themselves as custodians of a 100 year old trust.
如果这一切听起来像是对我们与加拿大 5,500 英里边境三英尺的侵占而大惊小怪，那么你必须明白，两位边界专员将自己视为一个有 100 年历史的信托基金的保管人。
To keep the border clear in a fair, evenhanded way, with no favoritism to either side.
以公平、公正的方式保持边界畅通，不偏袒任何一方。
With that in mind, they send out crews every summer to chop down trees.
考虑到这一点，他们每年夏天都会派出工作人员去砍伐树木。
They have bulldozed buildings.
他们推平了建筑物。
A couple years ago, Commissioner Schornack and his Canadian counterpart had to visit 40 Canadian homeowners, and give them the news that they gave the Leus.
几年前，Schornack 专员和加拿大同行必须拜访 40 名加拿大房主，并向他们传达他们给予 Leus 的消息。
Which is why didn't cut the Leus any slack.
这就是为什么 Leus 没有松懈。
They want to treat everybody-- Canadians and Americans-- exactly the same.
他们希望对每个人——加拿大人和美国人——一视同仁。
There was one exception granted back in the 70s, and it was always referred to by staff and in documents as quote "The mistake." But there are no other exceptions that I'm aware of all along this 5,525 mile boundary.
早在 70 年代就有一个例外，工作人员和文件中总是将其称为“错误”。但据我所知，在这条 5,525 英里的边界上没有其他例外。
But then, on April 6, 2007, Shirley Leu and her husband did something that no American citizen had ever done in 100 years.
但随后，2007 年 4 月 6 日，雪莉·刘 (Shirley Leu) 和她的丈夫做了一件美国公民 100 年来从未做过的事情。
They sued the Boundaries Commission saying that they have the right to build this wall on their own land.
他们起诉边界委员会，称他们有权在自己的土地上修建这堵墙。
It's my property, I paid for it.
这是我的财产，我付了钱。
I pay taxes on it.
我为此纳税。
It belongs to me.
它属于我。
It doesn't belong to the United States.
它不属于美国。
It doesn't belong to Canada.
它不属于加拿大。
It belongs to me.
它属于我。
I paid for it.
我付了钱。
And, at that point, this stopped being a story about some retirees and the wall they built, and it became something much, much bigger.
到那时，这不再是一个关于一些退休人员和他们建造的隔离墙的故事，而是变得更加宏大。
The Pacific Legal Foundation, a conservative watchdog group for property rights issues, and the oldest one, and one of the best known in the country, took the Leus' case for free.
太平洋法律基金会是一个负责产权问题的保守派监督组织，也是该国历史最悠久、最著名的组织之一，它免费受理了刘易斯的案件。
The Boundary commissioners were very worried about what kind of precedent this lawsuit might set.
边界专员非常担心这起诉讼可能会开创什么样的先例。
So they went to the State Department for advice.
于是他们向国务院寻求建议。
But officials there said, we can't actually help you, because you are not part of the United States government.
但那里的官员说，我们实际上无法帮助你，因为你不是美国政府的一部分。
You are an international body.
你们是一个国际机构。
Go hire your own lawyer.
去聘请你自己的律师吧。
So they hooked up with a fancy private attorney who handles these kinds of big international cases.
因此，他们联系了一位处理此类大型国际案件的高级私人律师。
A guy named Dr. Elliot Feldman.
一个名叫埃利奥特·费尔德曼博士的人。
When Canadian lumber barons, or Australian wheat gluten magnates need to hire some guy to deal with their tariffs, or their import quota problems, they call Elliot.
当加拿大木材大亨或澳大利亚小麦麸质巨头需要雇用一些人来处理关税或进口配额问题时，他们会打电话给埃利奥特。
He's that guy.
他就是那个人。
And Elliot Feldman did a little research.
埃利奥特·费尔德曼做了一些研究。
And as best as he could tell, the commissioner did seem to have a pretty solid case.
据他所知，专员似乎确实有相当充分的理由。
He wasn't doing anything different from previous commissioners.
他并没有做任何与前任委员不同的事情。
He was probably right in doing what he was doing.
他所做的事情可能是正确的。
The international treaty that gave him that power had been ratified by the Senate and, according to the Constitution, any treaty that goes through that process becomes the supreme law of the United States.
赋予他这一权力的国际条约已经得到参议院批准，根据宪法，任何经过这一程序的条约都将成为美国的最高法律。
All very straightforward.
一切都非常简单。
But then, the US government did a very strange about-face.
但随后，美国政府却做出了一个非常奇怪的转变。
Remember, the State Department had originally suggested that the Commission hire its own lawyer.
请记住，国务院最初建议委员会聘请自己的律师。
But then, commissioner Schornack found himself on the phone with a senior official from the Department of Justice named Ron Tempas, who seemed to think otherwise.
但随后，肖纳克专员发现自己正在与司法部一位名叫罗恩·坦帕斯 (Ron Tempas) 的高级官员通电话，后者似乎不这么认为。
He was rather brittle and rather harsh, and declared that I had to fire Dr. Feldman and turn total control of the case over to the Department of Justice.
他相当脆弱，也相当严厉，并宣称我必须解雇费尔德曼博士，并将案件的全部控制权移交给司法部。
It was very threatening, quite frankly.
坦率地说，这非常具有威胁性。
And he said that I, personally, risked exposure under criminal laws if I continued to retain and pay Dr. Feldman.
他说，就我个人而言，如果我继续聘用费尔德曼博士并为其支付报酬，我将面临触犯刑法的风险。
He refused to discuss the law or their approach to the case, other than to note that with respect to the Pacific Legal Fund, he said, "We know them, and they know us.
他拒绝讨论法律或他们处理此案的方法，只是指出有关太平洋法律基金的问题，他说：“我们了解他们，他们也了解我们。
I'm sure we can work something out."
我确信我们可以解决一些问题。”
That actually sounded alarming to the commissioner.
这实际上让专员感到震惊。
Like Mr. Tempas might actually agree with the Leus, and the Pacific Legal Foundation.
就像坦帕斯先生实际上可能同意 Leus 和太平洋法律基金会的观点一样。
And about a week later I was summoned to his office, along with my deputy commissioner.
大约一周后，我和我的副专员一起被叫到他的办公室。
And at my insistence I took along Dr. Feldman.
在我的坚持下，我带上了费尔德曼博士。
And we were met there, at the Justice Department, by, literally, a phalanx of nine attorneys.
我们在司法部见到了，毫不夸张地说，是由九名律师组成的方阵。
And Mr. Tempas opened the meeting by declaring quote "There's no question that the IBC is an agency of the United States government."
坦帕斯先生在会议开始时说道：“毫无疑问，IBC 是美国政府的一个机构。”
This may sound like nothing to you and me, but to Commissioner Schornack, this was pretty much the worst thing that Tempas could have said.
这对你我来说可能没什么，但对肖纳克专员来说，这几乎是坦帕斯能说的最糟糕的话。
The IBC, the International Boundary Commission, Mr. Schornack's commission, had managed the border for 100 years independently, without interference, as an international organization.
IBC，即国际边界委员会，肖纳克先生的委员会，作为一个国际组织，独立管理边界已有 100 年，不受干涉。
Here they were saying, you may think it's an international organization, but we're not going to treat it as an international organization.
他们在这里说，你可能认为这是一个国际组织，但我们不会把它当作一个国际组织。
We're going to treat it as subject to the authority of the president.
我们将把它视为服从总统的权威。
Again, that's Elliot Feldman, the commissioner's lawyer.
这又是专员的律师埃利奥特·费尔德曼 (Elliot Feldman)。
He says this was basically a power grab.
他说这基本上是一种权力争夺。
The president's men at the Justice Department included some strong supporters of private property rights.
总统在司法部的手下包括一些私有财产权的坚定支持者。
They'd given speeches, they'd litigated on behalf of those rights in the past.
他们过去曾发表演讲，为这些权利提起过诉讼。
And at this meeting they indicated a certain sympathy for the Leus' property rights claims.
在这次会议上，他们对 Leus 的产权主张表示了一定的同情。
Ron Tempas said, according to the commissioner, don't you agree they have a Fifth Amendment right to their private property?
罗恩·坦帕斯说，根据专员的说法，你不同意他们对自己的私有财产拥有第五修正案的权利吗？
A lawyer from the State Department said he agreed with the Leus' point of view.
美国国务院的一名律师表示，他同意列斯的观点。
Don't you agree, he asked the commissioner.
你不同意吗？他问专员。
The commissioner did not.
专员没有。
He and his Canadian counterpart wanted the wall to come down.
他和加拿大同行希望柏林墙能够倒塌。
And Elliot Feldman said the whole point of the 1908 treaty which created the commission was to keep politicians from doing exactly what the Justice Department lawyers were doing right then.
埃利奥特·费尔德曼 (Elliot Feldman) 表示，1908 年成立该委员会的条约的全部目的是阻止政客们做司法部律师当时正在做的事情。
Interfering with what happens on the border.
干扰边境发生的事情。
The treaties came about because there'd been over 100 years of armed conflict along our border with Canada.
这些条约的签订是因为我们与加拿大边境沿线已经发生了 100 多年的武装冲突。
Americans don't remember any of that, perhaps.
也许美国人根本不记得这些。
But Teddy Roosevelt, at the beginning of the century, undertook a series of treaties to try to pacify all kinds of questions.
但泰迪·罗斯福在本世纪初签署了一系列条约，试图解决各种问题。
And this treaty, the 1908 treaty, and the boundary waters treaty of 1909, was all part of that general movement to say, these kinds of things we don't have wars about anymore.
这项条约，即 1908 年的条约和 1909 年的边界水域条约，都是这一总体运动的一部分，即我们不再为此类事情发生战争。
We don't want any more violence about this.
我们不希望再有任何暴力事件发生。
We're going to settle it.
我们要解决它。
And the way to settle it is the depoliticize it, turn it over to technicians.
解决这个问题的方法就是将其去政治化，将其交给技术人员。
Let them sort out the border.
让他们解决边界问题。
So the treaty has words in it, like, "expert" and "surveyor" and "geographer"-- it's, if you like, I like to think of it is as one of the first technocratic treaties.
因此，该条约中有一些词，例如“专家”、“测量员”和“地理学家”——如果你愿意的话，我喜欢将其视为第一个技术官僚条约之一。
Where you cede power to technocrats, and you say to them, scientifically, you figure out exactly where the border is.
当你把权力让给技术官僚时，你对他们说，科学地，你准确地弄清楚了边界在哪里。
You mark it and maintain it.
您标记它并维护它。
We won't interfere.
我们不会干涉。
The two countries have to do everything jointly.
两国必须共同做一切事情。
The two commissioners are required to act by consensus only.
两位委员必须仅在协商一致的情况下采取行动。
And they're not to be interfered with.
并且他们不应该受到干扰。
And that way we don't have a border conflict.
这样我们就不会发生边界冲突。
That was the old way of viewing the commission.
这是看待委员会的旧方式。
And for 100 years, it worked.
一百年来，它一直有效。
The border's been peaceful.
边境一直很平静。
But in this meeting of the Justice Department, the Assistant Attorney General, Ron Tempas, outlined a new way of seeing it.
但在司法部的这次会议上，助理司法部长罗恩·坦帕斯概述了一种新的看待这一问题的方式。
Commissioner Schornack should see himself as serving the president, and doing what the president wants.
肖纳克专员应该将自己视为为总统服务，并做总统想要做的事情。
The commissioner was, after all, appointed to this job by President Bush.
毕竟，该专员是由布什总统任命的。
The Justice Department lawyers told him that sometimes the interest of the commission would be subordinate to other US interests.
司法部律师告诉他，有时该委员会的利益会服从于美国的其他利益。
And, of course, most important of all, he was told that the commission itself is not independent.
当然，最重要的是，他被告知该委员会本身并不是独立的。
It is not one Canadian and one American commissioner, deciding everything together.
这不是一位加拿大专员和一位美国专员一起决定一切。
It is just another agency of the US government, taking its orders from the president.
它只是美国政府的另一个机构，听从总统的命令。
Here's Dennis Schornack.
请听丹尼斯·肖纳克的报道。
Dennis Schornack I was literally floored by that because for-- well, this is an old organization.
丹尼斯·肖纳克（Dennis Schornack）确实对此感到震惊，因为——嗯，这是一个古老的组织。
We have archives full of memoranda and documents.
我们有充满备忘录和文件的档案。
Including some from the Department of Justice itself, clearly stating that we were an independent treaty organization.
包括司法部本身的一些，明确表示我们是一个独立的条约组织。
Well, if they thought that you were part of the United States, what did they think that your co-commissioner, who was Canadian-- what did they make of his existence?
好吧，如果他们认为你是美国的一部分，那么他们如何看待你的加拿大人联合专员——他们如何看待他的存在？
I mean he existed as your co-partner in running the thing.
我的意思是，他是你经营这件事的合作伙伴。
Well, I think you'd have to ask them that.
嗯，我想你必须问他们这个问题。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I can't speak for them.
我不能代表他们说话。
Now, in this meeting did they tell you you better watch out or this could cost you your jobs?
现在，在这次会议上他们有没有告诉你最好小心，否则这可能会让你丢掉工作？
Were they as direct as that?
他们有这么直接吗？
Yeah.
是的。
They were.
他们是。
It was rather blunt at times.
有时相当直率。
They couched it in terms like, "we'll take this to a higher authority" but it was very obvious to me what was at stake.
他们的措辞类似于“我们会将此事提交给更高的权威机构”，但对我来说，这很明显有什么利害关系。
That, to me, was very plainly a threat to his job.
对我来说，这显然是对他工作的威胁。
And in the course of the meeting, they had also made reference to-- they would see to it that we, the lawyers, would never be paid.
在会议过程中，他们还提到——他们将确保我们这些律师永远不会得到报酬。
And so we were being threatened, you'll never be paid.
所以我们受到威胁，你永远不会得到报酬。
He was being threatened, you'll lose your job.
他受到威胁，你会丢掉工作。
And those were what I think they believed to be the principal levers to get what they wanted.
我认为这些是他们认为是获得他们想要的东西的主要杠杆。
Justice Department officials, including Ron Tempas, declined the chance to be interviewed for this story.
包括罗恩·坦帕斯在内的司法部官员拒绝就本文接受采访。
A spokesman sent this email.
一位发言人发送了这封电子邮件。
"We believe that we have a duty not to discuss deliberations that are protected by attorney-client privilege.
“我们认为，我们有责任不讨论受律师-委托人特权保护的审议。
In addition, the district court judge has cautioned the parties regarding their comments to the press." But in court documents and transcripts from the Leus' lawsuit, the Justice Department explains their prospective.
此外，地区法院法官还警告双方不要向媒体发表评论。”但在法庭文件和 Leus 诉讼的笔录中，司法部解释了他们的前景。
There's actually an interesting moment in the oral arguments were Assistant Attorney General Brian Kipnis tells judge Marsha Pechman how hard it was for the State Department, and various parts of the justice Department and Homeland Security to even figure out where they stood in the issues in this case.
实际上，口头辩论中有一个有趣的时刻，助理司法部长布莱恩·基普尼斯（Brian Kipnis）告诉法官玛莎·佩奇曼（Marsha Pechman），对于国务院、司法部和国土安全部的各个部门来说，要弄清楚他们在本案问题上的立场是多么困难。
This is the first lawsuit ever against the commission by an American.
这是有史以来第一起由美国人针对该委员会提起的诉讼。
And the relevant 1908 and 1925 treaties doen't say much about how the commissioners should be doing their jobs, and about what kind of entity the commission is.
1908年和1925年的相关条约并没有过多规定委员们应该如何开展工作，以及委员会是什么样的实体。
Assistant Attorney General Brian Kipnis says to the judge at one point, "What I was trying to convey to you is the fact that this isn't about politics.
助理司法部长布莱恩·基普尼斯（Brian Kipnis）有一次对法官说：“我试图向您传达的事实是，这与政治无关。
This isn't about ideology.
这与意识形态无关。
This is about trying to get it right.
这是关于努力把事情做好。
This is about dealing with a lawsuit which involves issues that are, to be generous, murky."
这是关于处理一场诉讼，其中涉及的问题，说实话，是模糊的。”
Judge Pechman of the Ninth Circuit is skeptical.
第九巡回法院的佩奇曼法官对此表示怀疑。
"Mr. Kipnis," she says, "You say this isn't about politics, but there's a lot in this case the kind of looks like politics.
“基普尼斯先生，”她说，“你说这与政治无关，但这个案子有很多看起来像政治的东西。
It smells like politics.
这闻起来像政治。
It talks like politics.
它像政治一样谈论。
What about this case isn't about politics?
那这个案子与政治无关呢？
It certainly isn't about a Pomeranian dog run."
这当然不是关于博美犬的跑步。”
And then Brian Kipnis says something that gets to the heart of the government's case.
然后布莱恩·基普尼斯说了一些触及政府案件核心的内容。
He says, "If there's one thing that presents great problems for us, it would be where somebody who is a US commissioner, who represents the US in international relations, takes positions in lawsuits that are not consistent with the Department of Justice.
他说：“如果有一件事给我们带来了很大的问题，那就是在国际关系中代表美国的美国专员在诉讼中所采取的立场与司法部不一致。
To have a US commissioner that is not under our control, taking positions we do not agree with.
有一个不受我们控制的美国专员，采取我们不同意的立场。
That is the government's view."
这是政府的观点。”
Then Dennis Schornack's lawyer says, that's actually the point of this treaty.
然后丹尼斯·肖纳克的律师说，这实际上就是该条约的要点。
To cut the president and his men out of the equation.
将总统和他的部下排除在外。
And this case is the very case that the treaties were written to prevent.
而这种情况正是条约旨在防止的情况。
That is, here's a president saying to a commissioner, I don't want you to do something you think you're supposed to do on the border.
也就是说，一位总统对一位专员说，我不希望你在边境做你认为应该做的事情。
And the commissioner is saying, Mr. President, I have to do it.
专员说，总统先生，我必须这样做。
I'm sworn to the treaty.
我已宣誓遵守该条约。
This is my obligation.
这是我的义务。
And the president says, if you don't do what I'm telling you to do at the border, I'll fire you.
总统说，如果你不按照我在边境的指示行事，我就会解雇你。
And the treaties were designed to say, he can't do that because there's to be no political interference.
这些条约的目的是说，他不能这样做，因为不能有政治干预。
Feldman says this action on the 1908 treaty is typical of the way this particular administration deals with treaties.
费尔德曼表示，针对 1908 年条约的这一行动是本届政府处理条约的典型方式。
"We are routinely lawless," he says.
“我们经常无法无天，”他说。
There's big stuff that's been in the news, like the president unilaterally declaring that treaties, like the Geneva Convention, don't apply to certain kinds of prisoners.
新闻中出现了一些重大事件，比如总统单方面宣布《日内瓦公约》等条约不适用于某些类型的囚犯。
A reinterpretation that presidents haven't done before this way.
这是总统们以前从未做过的重新解释。
But there's also small stuff that most of us haven't heard of.
但也有一些我们大多数人都没有听说过的小东西。
During one of our interviews, something popped up on Feldman's computer screen about a World Trade Organization case he's been following.
在我们的一次采访中，费尔德曼的电脑屏幕上弹出了一些关于他一直在关注的世界贸易组织案件的信息。
And the news story that popped up on my screen was that the United States has refused to comply with the WTO ruling.
我的屏幕上出现的新闻报道是美国拒绝遵守世贸组织的裁决。
And the United States does this routinely.
美国经常这样做。
It routinely refuses to comply with WTO rulings, and complains that the WTO isn't being fair to the United States.
它经常拒绝遵守世贸组织的裁决，并抱怨世贸组织对美国不公平。
The United States is a very sore loser.
美国是一个非常痛苦的失败者。
And when it loses, it simply doesn't do what it's supposed to do.
当它失败时，它根本就没有做它应该做的事情。
And how can we do that?
我们怎样才能做到这一点？
I am not sure I understand.
我不确定我是否理解。
If it's a treaty that we've signed, isn't it exactly the same as US law?
如果是我们签的条约，那不是和美国的法律一模一样吗？
Aren't all the people deciding not to do it, aren't they basically breaking the law?
不是所有的人都决定不做，那不是基本违法了吗？
Yeah.
是的。
But there are no enforcement mechanisms.
但没有执行机制。
The UN can't enforce anything, neither can the WTO.
联合国不能强制执行任何事情，世贸组织也不能。
Boston Globe reporter Charlie Savage has followed the way the Bush administration has dealt with international treaties.
《波士顿环球报》记者查理·萨维奇追踪了布什政府处理国际条约的方式。
The administration has taken a very aggressive view that the president is not bound by treaties that have been ratified by Congress, by the Senate, across a range of issues.
政府采取了非常激进的观点，认为总统不受国会和参议院在一系列问题上批准的条约的约束。
Or that the president, alternatively, has the power to reinterpret for himself what those treaties mean.
或者，总统有权自行重新解释这些条约的含义。
He says the change really started on December 13, 2001, when President Bush, on his own, pulled the US out of the the anti-ballistic missile treaty.
他说，这一变化真正开始于2001年12月13日，当时布什总统独自让美国退出反弹道导弹条约。
Before this it hadn't been clear if a president could do that.
在此之前，尚不清楚总统是否可以做到这一点。
This is just a huge defense treaty.
这只是一个庞大的防御条约。
He doesn't go to Congress, he doesn't go to the Senate to see if they want to de-ratify it.
他不会去国会，也不会去参议院看看他们是否想要取消批准。
He just does it on his own.
他只是自己做。
And that locks down, now, into precedent, the idea that a president, in fact, has that authority.
现在，这锁定了先例，即总统实际上拥有这种权力。
Because Congress went home.
因为国会回家了。
They didn't challenge him on it.
他们没有就此挑战他。
There was people at the time, saying, well, wait a minute.
当时有人说，好吧，等一下。
Is that really how it's supposed to work?
这真的是它应该如何工作的吗？
What if some future president goes crazy and wants to pull us out of the United Nations?
如果某个未来的总统发疯并想把我们从联合国中拉出来怎么办？
Or pull us out of NATO?
或者让我们退出北约？
Because of the Bush precedent now, a President Obama or President Clinton could simply declare, we're out of NAFTA, without going to Congress.
由于现在布什的先例，奥巴马总统或克林顿总统可以简单地宣布，我们退出北美自由贸易协定，而无需去国会。
That would be an example where conservatives would probably not be very happy about the fact that this policy decision had been made without any even consultation of Congress.
这将是一个例子，保守派可能会对这一政策决定是在没有与国会进行任何协商的情况下做出的这一事实感到非常高兴。
For two weeks after their meeting at the Justice Department, Dennis Schornack and Elliot Feldman tried to get higher level officials to step in and take their side in this dispute.
在司法部会面两周后，丹尼斯·肖纳克和埃利奥特·费尔德曼试图让更高级别的官员介入并在这场争端中站在他们一边。
But no luck.
但没有运气。
Finally, Dennis Schornack got a call from a White House official in the personnel office.
最后，丹尼斯·肖纳克接到了白宫人事办公室官员的电话。
And after some brief pleasantries, he proceeded to explain, once again, to me the nature of unitary government.
在简短的寒暄之后，他再次向我解释了单一政府的本质。
He said, we all work for the president and we serve at his pleasure.
他说，我们都为总统工作，我们为他高兴服务。
And that I had until 3 o'clock that day to fire Dr. Feldman, and turn everything over to the Justice Department or else that pleasure would run out.
我必须在那天下午 3 点之前解雇费尔德曼博士，并将所有事情移交给司法部，否则这种乐趣就会消失。
He went on to ask me if I was a Republican.
他接着问我是否是共和党人。
He questioned my patriotism.
他质疑我的爱国精神。
And so at 3 o'clock, I called him back and said that the commission would not fire Dr. Feldman and that what he was asking me to do was, in my view, to breach my oath to the treaty, and I just wouldn't do that.
于是在下午 3 点，我给他回了电话，说委员会不会解雇费尔德曼博士，而且在我看来，他要求我做的事违反了我对条约的誓言，而我就是不会这么做。
What'd he say?
他说什么？
Dennis Schornack "Fine." And he hung up.
丹尼斯·肖纳克“好吧。”然后他挂断了电话。
Now, do you agree that you serve at the pleasure of the president?
现在，你同意你为总统服务吗？
Well, no. Not as boundary commissioner.
嗯，不。不是边界专员。
I believe I serve under the instrument of the treaty.
我相信我是根据该条约服务的。
And the treaty is very clear that a president can only fill vacancies.
而且条约非常明确，总统只能填补空缺。
So I believe, and my lawyer advises me, I'm still commissioner.
所以我相信，而且我的律师也建议我，我仍然是专员。
But I'm here in East Lansing, and not in Washington DC.
但我在东兰辛，而不是在华盛顿特区。
And then, if I understand right, the White House appointed somebody else to be the commissioner.
然后，如果我理解正确的话，白宫任命了其他人担任专员。
They did.
他们做到了。
There was a gentleman by the name of David Bernhardt.
有一位绅士，名叫大卫·伯恩哈特。
He came in one day and took that day to, I guess, go through all my email or something, and also to send a letter to Dr. Feldman asking him to do no more work on the case.
有一天他进来了，我想，那天他浏览了我所有的电子邮件或其他什么东西，还给费尔德曼博士发了一封信，要求他不要再做这个案子的工作。
And it's my understanding, because I still talk with my staff in Washington, that he essentially hasn't been in the office since.
据我了解，因为我仍在与华盛顿的工作人员交谈，所以从那以后他基本上就没有去过办公室了。
Schornack, and his lawyer Feldman, both continue to say that they have not been fired.
肖纳克和他的律师费尔德曼都继续表示他们没有被解雇。
Boundary commissioner is one of those positions, like International Trade commissioner and Head of the Securities and Exchange Commission, where the president can appoint you, but he cannot fire you.
边境专员是其中之一，就像国际贸易专员和证券交易委员会主席一样，总统可以任命你，但不能解雇你。
Which meant that what followed were several months of very odd legal wrangling, with two sets of lawyers-- the Justice Department and Elliot Feldman's team-- each claiming to represent the Boundary Commission.
这意味着接下来的几个月是非常奇怪的法律争论，两批律师——司法部和埃利奥特·费尔德曼的团队——每人都声称代表边界委员会。
And two commissioners, each claiming he was the real commissioner.
还有两个专员，每个专员都声称自己是真正的专员。
At one point the Leus' attorneys from the Pacific Legal Foundation filed a motion pleading with the court quote, "Before this case proceeds any further, this mess needs to be sorted out.
有一次，来自太平洋法律基金会的路易斯夫妇的律师提出了一份动议，恳求法庭引用的内容：“在本案进一步审理之前，需要解决这个混乱的问题。
The Leus are entitled to know which of the two defense teams represents the defendants."
路易斯家族有权知道两个辩护团队中哪一个代表被告。”
Canada, by the way, stayed out of this.
顺便说一句，加拿大没有插手此事。
Saying it was up to the US to figure out.
说这要由美国来解决。
Finally, in October, Judge Pechman, in the US District Court in the Ninth Circuit, ruled that the president did, in fact, have the power to fire Commissioner Schornack.
最后，十月，美国第九巡回法院地方法院的佩奇曼法官裁定，总统实际上有权解雇肖纳克专员。
Judge Pechman didn't disagree with the arguments that Schornack's lawyer made about the treaty, and how it intended to set up a Boundary Commission that would act independently, insulated from the president's power.
佩奇曼法官并不反对肖纳克的律师就该条约提出的论点，以及该条约打算如何设立一个独立运作、不受总统权力影响的边界委员会。
But she said there are a whole other set of rules and precedents regarding who the president can fire that took priority in this case.
但她表示，关于总统可以解雇谁，还有一整套其他规则和先例，在本案中优先考虑。
Dennis Schornack is appealing the judge's decision.
丹尼斯·肖纳克正在对法官的决定提出上诉。
Now, you were a supporter of President Bush.
现在，您是布什总统的支持者。
I was, yes.
我是，是的。
Ira Glass Did you campaign for him?
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）你为他竞选吗？
I did.
我做到了。
Worked quite hard on both of his campaigns.
他在两次竞选活动中都非常努力。
Well, you know, I'm extraordinarily disappointed.
嗯，你知道，我非常失望。
I mean, I think this is just a terrible thing.
我的意思是，我认为这是一件可怕的事情。
And it's one reason I wrote that I'm talking to you, because I believe the president and his men here must be stopped.
这是我写信与你们交谈的原因之一，因为我相信总统和他的手下必须被阻止。
I'm shocked and stunned at this seeming desire to push this very narrow property rights agenda over all of those other considerations.
我对这种将这个非常狭隘的产权议程凌驾于所有其他考虑之上的看似愿望感到震惊和震惊。
If Dennis Schornack loses his very last appeal, than the Leus will finally get their day in court with somebody.
如果丹尼斯·肖纳克（Dennis Schornack）最后一次上诉失败，那么路易斯家族最终将在法庭上与某人打官司。
And it will be the Justice Department representing the Commission.
代表该委员会的是司法部。
If the Justice Department decides to come to a settlement, if they decide that it is OK for the Leus to keep their wall, Dennis Schornack fears that it will be impossible for the Commission to stop anybody else from building along the border.
如果司法部决定达成和解，如果他们认为留斯人可以保留他们的隔离墙，丹尼斯·肖纳克担心委员会将不可能阻止其他任何人沿着边境修建隔离墙。
The commission would be eviscerated.
该委员会将被掏空。
It would no longer have any authority to do its job.
它将不再有任何权力来完成其工作。
The United States not only is pushing the commission around on this case, but they've fallen behind in funding for the commission as well.
美国不仅在该案上对委员会施压，而且在为该委员会提供资金方面也落后了。
It's supposed to be a 50/50 deal according to the treaty.
根据条约，这应该是 50/50 的交易。
But for the last three years, 2/3 of the resources have come from Canada.
但过去三年，2/3的资源来自加拿大。
And what would the rationale for that be?
这样做的理由是什么？
It seems like this commission is doing the least controversial thing possible, which is maintaining the border with a country that we're entirely at peace at.
看起来这个委员会正在做尽可能没有争议的事情，那就是维持与我们完全和平相处的国家的边界。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
It astounds me.
这让我很惊讶。
I don't understand it.
我不明白。
Recently, he says, the Department of Homeland Security came to the commission, and asked it to clear trees and brush for 10 miles of the border in New York State, so it could test its new electronic fence.
他说，最近，国土安全部来到该委员会，要求其清理纽约州边界 10 英里的树木和灌木，以便测试其新的电子围栏。
Now if the commission were actually a US government agency doing that job, they would have to pay homeowners for the foliage they were tearing down under the Takings Clause of the Constitution.
现在，如果该委员会实际上是从事这项工作的美国政府机构，他们将必须根据宪法征用条款向房主支付拆除树叶的费用。
The federal government can't do stuff like that without paying you back.
联邦政府不能在不给你钱的情况下做这样的事情。
But because the commission is an international agency, and not the US government, the Boundaries Commission doesn't pay anybody back.
但由于该委员会是一个国际机构，而不是美国政府，因此边界委员会不会向任何人付款。
Which leads to this interesting thought, this whole lawsuit could lead to a very counter-intuitive and undesirable result for the government.
这引发了这个有趣的想法，整个诉讼可能会给政府带来非常违反直觉和不良的结果。
If the administration chooses to let the Leus have their wall, if they prevail in their argument that the Boundary Commission is actually an agency of the United States government, then the short term result is going to be that it'll be a lot harder, and a lot more expensive, to keep the US, Canadian border clear and secure.
如果政府选择让留斯人修建隔离墙，如果他们在边界委员会实际上是美国政府的一个机构的论点上占上风，那么短期结果将是，保持美国和加拿大边境的畅通和安全将变得更加困难，成本也更高。
Coming up.
即将到来。
What could be harsher than playing hardball with volunteer firemen who died on 9/11?
还有什么比对 9/11 事件中死去的志愿消防员采取强硬态度更严厉的呢？
OK, maybe nothing.
好吧，也许什么也没有。
But something that's just as harsh.
但这同样严酷。
In a minute, from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life , I'm Ira Glass.
这就是美国生活，我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on the show we choose a theme, bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
每周节目我们都会选择一个主题，为您带来有关该主题的各种不同类型的故事。
Today's show: The Audacity of Government.
今天的节目：政府的大胆。
Stories of the Bush administration's lawyering, unrelenting style, where they're inventing new ways to be unrelenting, even on tiny matters that most of us have never even heard of.
布什政府律师的故事，不屈不挠的风格，他们发明了不屈不挠的新方法，即使是在我们大多数人从未听说过的小问题上。
We've arrived at Act two of our show.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act two, This American Wife.
第二幕，这个美国妻子。
We have this story, from Jack Hitt.
我们有这样一个故事，来自杰克·希特。
Who doesn't love a good love story?
谁不喜欢美好的爱情故事？
Think about that moment when you first saw that girl, or that guy over there, and then, like the big bang, they expanded into everything.
想想当你第一次看到那个女孩或那个家伙的那一刻，然后，就像大爆炸一样，他们扩展到一切。
Even when these stories are about people we don't know, you feel a thrill and then a little jealousy, that it's not you.
即使这些故事是关于我们不认识的人，你也会感到兴奋，然后有点嫉妒，因为那不是你。
Like this one, about Raquel and Derek.
就像这个关于拉奎尔和德里克的故事。
Raquel is from Brazil, and came to Florida to see America and learn to be a nurse.
Raquel 来自巴西，来到佛罗里达州参观美国并学习成为一名护士。
And then she met Derek one night on the way home from a party at a gas station.
然后有一天晚上，她在加油站参加完聚会回家的路上遇到了德里克。
They talked, but it was getting late and she had to work the next day.
他们聊了聊，但时间已经很晚了，她第二天还要上班。
Well, let Raquel tell it.
好吧，让拉奎尔来说吧。
And then we exchanged telephone numbers.
然后我们交换了电话号码。
I went home.
我回家了。
He said, what time are you going to be back tomorrow from work?
他说，你明天几点下班回来？
And I said, I'll be home around 5 o'clock.
我说，我会在 5 点左右回家。
And 5 o'clock, the telephones rings.
5点钟，电话响了。
And I was like, wow, how are you doing?
我当时想，哇，你好吗？
I didn't expect you to call me exactly at 5:00.
我没想到你会在 5:00 准时给我打电话。
5:03 or something.
5:03 或者什么的。
I just walked in the house.
我刚走进屋子。
He didn't give any chance to breathe.
不给他任何喘息的机会。
A year later, Raquel and Derek got married.
一年后，拉奎尔和德里克结婚了。
And for her to stay in the US as his wife, she had to become a legal resident.
为了让她作为他的妻子留在美国，她必须成为合法居民。
So here's how this is supposed to work: you apply for a green card.
所以这就是它应该如何运作的：您申请绿卡。
And then, sometime in the first two years, you have to go through a personal interview to prove the marriage is real.
然后，在头两年的某个时候，你必须通过个人面试来证明婚姻是真实的。
Soon enough, Raquel and Derek had some pretty solid proof.
很快，拉奎尔和德里克就得到了一些相当可靠的证据。
We were actually on our, supposedly, honeymoon on New Orleans.
我们实际上是在新奥尔良度蜜月。
And I went to the cafe, the Cafe Du Monde, on the corner right there.
我去了拐角处的杜梦咖啡馆。
And had some beignets, with cafe latte.
还吃了一些贝奈特饼和拿铁咖啡。
And then I just had some upset stomach right after that.
然后我就感到胃部不适。
So that clicked in my head that, hmm, something must be.
于是我的脑海里突然闪过一个念头：嗯，一定有什么事情。
And I told him and he said, oh, baby, you got to get the test or something.
我告诉他，他说，哦，宝贝，你必须接受测试什么的。
So when we get back, I got the test and it was positive.
所以当我们回来时，我做了测试，结果呈阳性。
And we're like, oh my gosh.
我们就像，天哪。
Oh my gosh.
天哪。
I can't believe it, I'm pregnant.
我简直不敢相信，我怀孕了。
This personal interview they were waiting for is conducted by the immigration service, known as the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services, or USCIS.
他们等待的个人面试是由移民服务机构（即美国公民及移民服务局，简称 USCIS）进行的。
You know this interview, it's practically part of American legend.
你知道这次采访，它实际上是美国传奇的一部分。
It's where some immigration officer grills a couple with intimate questions about the color of their wallpaper, or whether the husband sleeps in pajamas.
一些移民官员在这里盘问一对夫妇，询问他们壁纸的颜色，或者丈夫是否穿着睡衣睡觉。
Sometimes getting the interview scheduled can take a few months, sometimes dozens of months.
有时安排面试可能需要几个月，有时需要几十个月。
It just depends on when USCIS gets around to it.
这仅取决于移民局何时开始处理。
And typically it's no big deal.
通常这没什么大不了的。
Nothing interferes with the process going forward, with one exception.
除了一个例外，没有任何事情会干扰这一进程的进展。
One devastating exception.
一个毁灭性的例外。
18 months into their marriage, Raquel woke up to find Derek, who'd been complaining of insomnia in the living room.
结婚 18 个月后，拉奎尔醒来发现德里克一直在客厅抱怨失眠。
When I looked at him on the couch, I could tell that something, something, was going on.
当我看着沙发上的他时，我知道有什么事情正在发生。
Something was wrong.
出了点问题。
Then I got closer, and, like, baby?
然后我靠近了，就像，宝贝？
And call him.
并打电话给他。
I just could see that he's not breathing.
我只能看到他没有呼吸。
And I jumped and I did everything I could, CPR, whatever.
我跳了起来，做了我能做的一切，心肺复苏，等等。
And then I jumped on the phone and get the phone and just started desperately saying, I need somebody here to help me, please.
然后我跳上电话，拿起电话，开始拼命地说，我需要有人帮助我，拜托。
It was tough.
这很艰难。
Ugh.
啊。
The worst day in my life.
我一生中最糟糕的一天。
Derek had suffered from sleep apnea, and that night he died of heart failure, leaving Raquel a widow.
德里克患有睡眠呼吸暂停症，当晚他因心力衰竭去世，留下拉克尔成为寡妇。
She moved in with her in-laws.
她搬去和她的公婆住在一起。
And, after a few weeks, worked up enough energy to go tell immigration what had happened.
几周后，我鼓起足够的精力去告诉移民局发生了什么事。
She wanted to find out how best to finish up the application for residency, so she could get on with the business of raising their son, Ian.
她想知道如何最好地完成居留申请，这样她就可以继续抚养他们的儿子伊恩。
I've made appointment, went there.
我已经预约了，就去了。
I gave Derek's death certificate.
我给了德里克的死亡证明
And they said, oh, your case is going to be denied.
他们说，哦，你的案子将被拒绝。
You're going to have to go back to Brazil.
你将不得不返回巴西。
You going to have a letter from us, because you guys were not two years married.
你会收到我们的一封信，因为你们结婚还不到两年。
And I said, but what?
我说，但是什么？
Wait a minute.
等一下。
I have my son here with me.
我有我的儿子和我在一起。
He's American citizen.
他是美国公民。
They say, yes ma'am, but you can go, he can stay.
他们说，是的，女士，但你可以走，他可以留下。
Just like that.
就这样。
Wow.
哇。
I mean was there-- how did you react to that?
我的意思是，你对此有何反应？
I just said, uh huh.
我只是说，嗯嗯。
That doesn't make any sense.
这没有任何意义。
Of course, my son's going to go wherever I go.
当然，我走到哪儿，我儿子就跟到哪儿。
So at this point, did you just leave the immigration office?
那么此时您刚刚离开移民局吗？
I left.
我离开了。
Exactly.
确切地。
I think I'm just going to go out of that door right then.
我想我马上就要走出那扇门了。
And then I actually got the letter that our case was denied.
然后我真的收到了我们的案件被拒绝的信。
Right.
正确的。
Brent Renison And then what did you do?
布伦特·雷尼森 然后你做了什么？
We start thinking, contact lawyers, to see what we could do.
我们开始思考，联系律师，看看我们能做些什么。
Because right there and then, I'm illegal.
因为当时我就是非法的。
There is no rule saying automatic denial.
没有规定说自动拒绝。
There is no law passed by Congress mandating automatic denial.
国会没有通过任何法律强制自动拒绝。
They just made the law up.
他们刚刚制定了法律。
That's Brent Renison, the lawyer who finally took Raquel's case.
那就是布伦特·雷尼森（Brent Renison），最终接手拉克尔案的律师。
In his regular job, his paying job, he's a corporate lawyer.
在他的常规工作中，他的薪酬工作是一名公司律师。
Mostly for Nike and some other companies.
主要针对耐克和其他一些公司。
And he specializes in employee immigration issues.
他专门研究员工移民问题。
He's become, possibly, our nation's leading expert in cases like Raquel's, entirely by accident.
他可能成为我们国家处理拉克尔案件的顶尖专家，这完全是出于偶然。
Six years ago, a woman found him in the yellow pages.
六年前，一位女士在黄页上找到了他。
It was an odd little case of signed, sealed, but not delivered.
这是一个奇怪的小箱子，签了字，盖章，但没有交付。
A woman had filed all her papers to become a resident, and very close to the two year mark, her husband died of cancer.
一名妇女提交了所有文件以成为居民，临近两年时，她的丈夫因癌症去世。
So the government turned her down.
所以政府拒绝了她。
Really, I thought that would be the one strange case on this that I'd ever have.
真的，我认为这将是我遇到过的唯一一个奇怪的案例。
And then Carla Freeman came into my office and it happened all over again.
然后卡拉·弗里曼走进我的办公室，一切又发生了。
Carla had that same kind of situation.
卡拉也有同样的情况。
Bob Freeman was heading to work-- actually on his day off-- and a Pepsi truck went right across the center lane, into his lane, and collided with his car head on, killing him instantly.
鲍勃·弗里曼 (Bob Freeman) 正要去上班——实际上是在休息日——一辆百事可乐卡车直接穿过中央车道，进入他的车道，与他的车正面相撞，当场死亡。
And that's when I met her.
就在那时我遇见了她。
I went with her to her immigration interview.
我和她一起去参加她的移民面试。
And we went into the officer's office there and he had her stand and swear to tell the truth.
我们走进那里的警官办公室，他让她站起来并发誓说实话。
And we sat down and started talking about the application.
我们坐下来开始讨论该应用程序。
He said, "There's somebody here to see you." And we turned and looked and in the doorway was an officer.
他说：“有人来看你。”我们转身一看，门口站着一位军官。
He showed her his badge and he said, "Mrs. Freeman I'd like to first offer my condolences on your loss, but I have to ask you to come with me." And she was just terrified.
他向她展示了自己的徽章，然后说道：“弗里曼夫人，我首先对您的去世表示哀悼，但我必须请您跟我一起去。”她只是害怕。
And they took her away.
他们把她带走了。
They shackled her in chains and put her in a holding cell.
他们给她戴上铁链，关进牢房。
Renison ran down the street to the federal court and managed to get an emergency order to get her out.
雷尼森沿着街道跑到联邦法院，并设法获得了紧急命令，将她救了出来。
He couldn't believe it had gotten this far, because it seemed so obvious that an absurd unfairness lie at the heart of these cases.
他不敢相信事情已经发展到这一步，因为很明显这些案件的核心是荒谬的不公平现象。
And here it is: if immigration had scheduled that personal interview before Carla's husband died, Carla would have become a resident.
事情就是这样：如果移民局在卡拉的丈夫去世之前安排了个人面谈，卡拉就会成为居民。
But because there was a delay, and he died before the bureaucracy got around to it, she is subject to what they call "automatic denial." It all depends on the timing of the bureaucracy.
但由于事情耽搁了，而且他在官僚机构有时间处理之前就去世了，所以她受到了他们所谓的“自动否认”的影响。这一切都取决于官僚机构的时机。
Not the facts of the case, or the reality of the marriage.
不是案件的事实，也不是婚姻的现实。
And when Renison did some research into this rule, he found something that seemed impossible.
当雷尼森对这条规则进行一些研究时，他发现了一些看似不可能的事情。
This particular rule had long ago been debunked and discarded by none other than the agency's own Board of Immigration Appeals.
这项特殊规则很久以前就被该机构自己的移民上诉委员会揭穿并废除了。
Yeah, comes from a decision in 1970 which dealt with a woman who had married an American citizen who was in the Navy.
是的，来自 1970 年的一项决定，该决定涉及一名与海军服役的美国公民结婚的女性。
And while out at sea, on duty, he died.
在出海执行任务时，他去世了。
And they denied her, saying she was stripped of the status of a spouse.
他们否认了她，称她被剥夺了配偶身份。
And for years after that, if your spouse died, you'd be denied residency.
在那之后的几年里，如果你的配偶去世了，你将被拒绝居住。
Because they were no longer your spouse.
因为他们不再是你的配偶。
That was in 1970.
那是在1970年。
Then, in 1985, there was a another case, Matter of Sano, that was litigated on the very same issue.
然后，在 1985 年，还有一个名为“佐野事件”的案件，也就同一问题提起了诉讼。
And the same court said, whoa, we made a mistake.
同一个法庭说，哇，我们犯了一个错误。
We had no jurisdiction to rule in that type of case.
我们没有管辖权来裁决此类案件。
We're going to modify that accordingly, and we think that decision was inappropriate.
我们将相应地修改它，我们认为这个决定是不合适的。
I mean, the words inappropriate were used, and they're modifying the decision.
我的意思是，使用了不适当的词，他们正在修改决定。
So understand what happened here.
所以了解这里发生了什么。
In 1985 the immigration court held that it had no business deciding who was a spouse and who wasn't a spouse.
1985年，移民法院裁定，它无权决定谁是配偶、谁不是配偶。
In legal terms, no jurisdiction to decide this matter.
从法律上来说，没有管辖权来决定此事。
But instead of changing the rule, the bureaucracy came up with an interpretation that let them keep doing what they were doing all along.
但官僚机构并没有改变规则，而是提出了一种解释，让他们继续做他们一直在做的事情。
Number one, they said they still had the power to say, you're not a spouse, based on the 1970 case.
第一，他们说，根据 1970 年的案例，他们仍然有权说，你不是配偶。
And, number two, you have no right to appeal.
第二，你无权上诉。
How do they draw the no right to appeal from the second case.
他们如何从第二个案件中获得无上诉权。
Because there's no jurisdiction from the court.
因为法院没有管辖权。
Wow.
哇。
Wow, that's amazing.
哇，太棒了。
Brent Renison Yeah, it is amazing.
布伦特·雷尼森 是的，太棒了。
So they draw these two completely at odds conclusions from these two cases?
那么他们从这两个案例中得出了两个完全不一致的结论？
Right, exactly.
对，完全正确。
Jack Hitt So they can strip you of your status, and you can't review it.
杰克·希特：所以他们可以剥夺你的身份，而且你无法对其进行审查。
Exactly.
确切地。
I'll read to you a portion of the letter that is very much the standard letter here for denial.
我将向您朗读这封信的一部分，这基本上是这里的标准拒绝信。
This particular letter says, "The evidence of record indicates that your husband passed away on June 2, 2005.
这封特别的信写道：“记录证据显示，你的丈夫于 2005 年 6 月 2 日去世。
You are no longer the spouse of a citizen, and therefore not entitled to the status as immediate relative.
您不再是公民的配偶，因此不再享有直系亲属的身份。
There is no appeal to this decision."
对此决定不得上诉。”
And that's right from one of the denials.
其中一项否认就是如此。
And they all have a little different flavor.
它们都有一点不同的味道。
Some say I'm sorry for your loss, or please accept our condolences for your loss.
有人说我对你的损失感到抱歉，或者请接受我们对你的损失的哀悼。
But, you know, you're denied and you have no appeal.
但是，你知道，你被拒绝了，而且你没有上诉的机会。
It's very Kafka-esque.
这非常卡夫卡式的。
Renison became obsessed with these cases.
雷尼森对这些案件非常着迷。
And as word got out about him, more and more widows and widowers showed up at his door.
随着有关他的消息传开，越来越多的寡妇和鳏夫出现在他家门口。
When I talked to him in, he had 134 clients.
当我和他交谈时，他有 134 个客户。
In 2006, he wound up in the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals with Carla Freeman, the client he saw put in shackles.
2006 年，他与卡拉·弗里曼 (Carla Freeman) 一起在第九巡回上诉法院受审，他亲眼目睹卡拉·弗里曼 (Carla Freeman) 被戴上镣铐。
And the court ruled expansively in his favor, saying, a spouse is a spouse.
法院做出了对他有利的判决，称配偶就是配偶。
Here's precisely what they said.
这正是他们所说的。
Quote, "Congress clearly intended an alien widow, whose citizen spouse had filed the necessary forms, to be and to remain an immediate relative, a spouse, even if the citizen spouse dies within two years of the marriage," end quote.
引用，“国会明确希望外籍寡妇，其公民配偶已提交必要的表格，成为并保持直系亲属，配偶，即使公民配偶在结婚后两年内去世，”引用结束。
Case closed, right?
案子已经结案了吧？
Exactly.
确切地。
With one exception.
但有一个例外。
One devastating exception.
一个毁灭性的例外。
After she won her court case, they decided to find some other reason to deny her.
在她胜诉后，他们决定寻找其他理由拒绝她。
And this is directly quoted from their denial.
这是直接引自他们的否认。
"Since your late husband is deceased, denial of your admission will not have any legally cognizable effect on him." And the word legally cognizable, that's a legal term, but I think it just means that he's not going to know what's going on with your case, and so why should we care?
“由于你已故的丈夫已经去世，拒绝你入境不会对他产生任何法律上可认定的影响。”法律上可识别这个词，这是一个法律术语，但我认为这只是意味着他不会知道你的案件发生了什么，所以我们为什么要关心呢？
In other words, even though she won her case, they found other grounds to throw her out, and fought this Ninth Circuit ruling in every possible way.
换句话说，即使她赢了官司，他们还是找到了其他理由将她驱逐出去，并以各种可能的方式对抗第九巡回法院的裁决。
They didn't obey it outside the Ninth Circuit.
他们在第九巡回赛之外没有遵守它。
In fact, in three other circuits around the country, widows have won similar arguments and every case is being appealed by the Immigration Service.
事实上，在全国其他三个巡回法庭中，寡妇也赢得了类似的诉讼，并且每个案件都在向移民局提出上诉。
Inside the Ninth Circuit itself, they've dragged their feet.
在第九巡回赛内部，他们却拖拖拉拉。
And finally, when forced to reply to a class action lawsuit brought by Renison, the government issued a memo two days before the deadline that said they'd abide by the Freeman ruling, but only in the Ninth Circuit, and only if the spouse met some tough conditions.
最后，当被迫回应雷尼森提起的集体诉讼时，政府在截止日期前两天发布了一份备忘录，表示他们将遵守弗里曼的裁决，但仅限于第九巡回法院，而且只有在配偶满足一些严格条件的情况下。
Among them, spouses have to prove they need to stay in the United States for humanitarian reasons, because of dangerous conditions in their home countries, and they have nowhere else to go.
其中，配偶必须证明，由于本国局势危险，出于人道主义原因，他们需要留在美国，而且他们无处可去。
And if some widow managed somehow to jump through all these hoops, the government can do to her what they did to Carla Freeman.
如果某个寡妇设法克服了所有这些困难，政府就可以像对待卡拉·弗里曼那样对待她。
To expel her from the country, they used a terrorism law.
为了将她驱逐出境，他们使用了恐怖主义法。
The Real ID Act of 2005 contains a clause that boosts Immigration's power.
2005 年《真实身份法案》包含一项增强移民权力的条款。
Not only can they reject any immigrant at their discretion, for any reason they want, now that don't have to tell anyone what that reason is.
他们不仅可以自行决定以任何他们想要的理由拒绝任何移民，而且现在不必告诉任何人原因是什么。
And they said those decisions that are made, as long as they're made on discretionary reasons, shall be unreviewable in any court.
他们表示，只要这些决定是出于自由裁量权的原因，就不会在任何法院进行审查。
I'm sorry, isn't this like 1984 or something?
抱歉，这不是 1984 年吗？
Not to push it--
不是为了推动它——
I'd say absurd.
我想说荒谬。
Jack Hitt But it's like, you have this special decision making power, that will be applied only with these special standards.
杰克·希特：但这就像，你有这种特殊的决策权，只有在这些特殊标准下才会应用。
Oh, by the way, no one can know what the standards are.
哦，顺便说一句，没有人知道标准是什么。
Well, you know, why I laugh about this discretionary review, so to speak, and the lack of any appeal on it, it's really nervous laughter because these are people's lives that they're destroying.
好吧，你知道，为什么我会嘲笑这种随意的评论，可以这么说，以及它缺乏任何吸引力，这真的是紧张的笑声，因为这些是他们正在摧毁的人们的生活。
The most puzzling part of this whole story is this, what problem is the government trying to solve?
整个故事中最令人费解的部分是，政府试图解决什么问题？
What threat is worth these hardball tactics?
什么样的威胁值得采取这些强硬策略？
It's not like there's a wave of widows storming our shores.
并不是有一波寡妇席卷了我们的海岸。
These aren't fake marriages, these aren't suspected terrorists.
这些不是假婚姻，也不是恐怖分子嫌疑人。
These cases are rare.
这些案例很少见。
It's not like people are intentionally getting married, having kids, filing their paperwork, and then having their spouses accidentally die as a scheme to get a green card.
人们并不是为了获得绿卡而故意结婚、生子、提交文书，然后让配偶意外死亡。
How much bureaucratic time would it take to just process those 134 cases, as compared to fighting this in all the circuit courts around the country?
与在全国各地的巡回法院进行斗争相比，仅仅处理这 134 起案件需要多少官僚时间？
Well, these people paid all the filing fees, and so there's no additional burden.
嗯，这些人支付了所有的申请费，所以没有额外的负担。
So, I mean, they could hire a couple of clerks, basically, to finish off the paperwork here and be done with this in a couple of weeks practically.
所以，我的意思是，他们基本上可以雇佣几个文员来完成这里的文书工作，并在几周内完成。
No, no, they don't have to hire any clerks.
不，不，他们不需要雇用任何职员。
They do this is as a regular business.
他们这样做是作为一项常规业务。
They adjudicate 30,000 applications for benefits a day.
他们每天审理 30,000 份福利申请。
Wow.
哇。
And this is 134.
这是 134。
And they're going to the mat for the right to automatically deny these 134 widows.
他们将竭尽全力争取自动拒绝这 134 名寡妇的权利。
I'd say, yeah, they're going to the mat.
我会说，是的，他们要去垫子上。
Why?
为什么？
Brent Renison I've been on the mat for a while with them.
布伦特·雷尼森（Brent Renison） 我和他们一起在垫子上呆了一段时间。
Why, do you think?
为什么，你觉得呢？
Why is this such a point of contention for them?
为什么这对他们来说是一个争论点？
Well, I don't know.
嗯，我不知道。
I honestly don't know.
老实说我不知道。
You've reached the office of communications for US Citizenship and Immigration Services.
您已到达美国公民及移民服务局通讯办公室。
If you're a member of the media, please press one now.
如果您是媒体人士，请立即按一个。
Office of Communications.
通讯办公室。
Jack Hitt Chris Ratigan.
杰克·希特克里斯·拉蒂根。
This is Chris.
这是克里斯。
Jack Hitt Hi, Chris, this is Jack Hitt from This American Life .
杰克·希特 嗨，克里斯，我是《美国生活》中的杰克·希特。
Hey, Jack.
嘿，杰克。
Jack Hitt Hi.
杰克·希特嗨。
I'm recording this for broadcast, if that's OK.
如果可以的话，我正在录制这个广播。
Not with my permission.
没有经过我的允许。
Jack Hitt Oh, can we get your permission?
杰克·希特 哦，我们能得到你的许可吗？
No. Jack Hitt That's as much as Immigration would tell me, and it took weeks to hear that.
不。杰克·希特（Jack Hitt） 移民局会告诉我这些，但我花了几周时间才听到这个消息。
I had called Immigration Service, and the Department of Homeland Security, and sent emails, getting either passed on, or sent to a voicemail.
我给移民局和国土安全部打电话，并发送电子邮件，要么被转接，要么被发送到语音信箱。
The main thing I wanted to ask was, why?
我主要想问的是，为什么？
Chris Ratigan wouldn't tell me why.
克里斯·拉蒂根没有告诉我原因。
It's possible the Immigration service sees this as just another part of the crackdown on immigrants that began after September 11, trying to send anybody it can home.
移民局可能认为这只是 9 月 11 日之后开始的移民镇压行动的另一部分，试图将任何可以遣返的人遣送回国。
But, in this case, it seems like it's more about an agency that's doggedly determined to win.
但是，在这种情况下，这似乎更多的是一个顽强地决心获胜的机构。
Just look at the constant barrage of legal talent, and massive expenditures of tax money by the Immigration service in order to toss out these widows.
看看移民局为了赶走这些寡妇而不断涌入的法律人才和巨额税收支出就知道了。
Renison now has a class action suit on behalf of the 134 spouses, and he's adding more spouses every week.
雷尼森现在代表 134 名配偶提起集体诉讼，而且他每周都会增加更多的配偶。
Brent, isn't it likely that you'll just win this case and then they'll just invoke discretionary power in every case after that?
布伦特，你是不是很可能会赢得这个案子，然后他们会在之后的每个案件中调用自由裁量权？
And throw everybody out anyway?
还是把所有人都赶出去？
I really hope not.
我真的希望不会。
Jack Hitt Don't you think that's a very possibility, since it happened in the Ninth Circuit?
杰克·希特：你不认为这种可能性很大吗，因为它发生在第九巡回赛？
Yes.
是的。
I try not to think about that too much, because it's really overwhelming.
我尽量不去想太多，因为这真的让人难以承受。
The power that's been given to the executive branch.
授予行政部门的权力。
And I'd like to take some of that back, but it's not my job to do that.
我想收回其中一些，但这不是我的工作。
It's Congress and it's the courts.
这是国会，也是法院。
I mean, that's how our system works.
我的意思是，我们的系统就是这样运作的。
If Congress and the courts can't keep the executive branch in check, then we're really hurting in this country.
如果国会和法院不能控制行政部门，那么我们这个国家就真的受到了伤害。
What's your greatest fear in all this?
在这一切中你最害怕的是什么？
What's your nightmare outcome?
你的噩梦结果是什么？
I know what it is, but-- Jack Hitt Are you afraid to say it because you think it might come true?
我知道它是什么，但是——杰克·希特（Jack Hitt）你是否害怕说出来，因为你认为它可能会实现？
Oh.
哦。
Well, I don't know if I want to-- I don't know if I, well-- I think my worst fear is that I'll die before this is changed.
好吧，我不知道我是否愿意——我不知道我是否愿意，好吧——我想我最害怕的是在这一切改变之前我会死。
How old are you, Brent?
你几岁了，布伦特？
Brent Renison I'm 39.
布伦特·雷尼森 我今年 39 岁。
Do you think you might be litigating this for the rest of your life, is that what you're saying?
你认为你的余生可能会为此打官司吗？你是这么说的吗？
I will if they don't change this policy.
如果他们不改变这个政策我会的。
If Renison sounds overwhelmed, it's not because he's got 134 clients, but because he's also fighting for the old fashioned justice system.
如果雷尼森听起来不知所措，那不是因为他有 134 个客户，而是因为他也在为老式司法系统而战。
The one where a good argument before a neutral judge could prevail.
中立法官面前的良好论据可以获胜。
Renison can sound over the top when he talks about this stuff, invoking the founding fathers, quoting America's original documents, and saying words like tyranny.
当雷尼森谈论这些事情时，他可能会显得有些过分，援引开国元勋，引用美国的原始文件，并说出诸如暴政之类的词语。
But what kind of language are you supposed to use when you reread the Declaration of Independence, and realize it's just a laundry list of complaints about a unitary executive granting too much power to petty bureaucrats.
但是，当你重读《独立宣言》，并意识到它只是一长串抱怨单一行政机构授予小官僚太多权力时，你应该使用什么样的语言。
What are you supposed to say when you read a sentence like this one?
当你读到这样的句子时，你应该说什么？
"He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people." That old-timey language suddenly doesn't sound so old anymore.
“他设立了许多新办公室，并派出大批官员到这里骚扰我们的人民。”这种古老的语言突然听起来不再那么古老了。
Jack Hitt lives in New Haven.
杰克·希特住在纽黑文。
[MUSIC - "GOODBYE" BY THE POSTMARKS]
[音乐 - 邮戳上的“再见”]
Act three, 44.
第三幕，44。
A big part of the unrelenting style of this president is connected to a particular view of the Presidency, that there are inherent executive powers embedded in the Constitution, between the lines, that the Congress has no right to oversee or regulate anything the president or the executive branch does.
这位总统的无情风格很大程度上与总统的一种特殊观点有关，即宪法中蕴含着固有的行政权力，在字里行间，国会无权监督或监管总统或行政部门所做的任何事情。
So, for example, you may have heard President Bush issuing hundreds and hundreds of signing statements.
例如，您可能听说过布什总统发表了数百份签署声明。
This is when Congress sends him a law to sign that has things in it that he doesn't think that they should be able to force him to do.
这时，国会向他发送了一项法律，要求他签署，其中包含他认为他们不应该强迫他做的事情。
Rather than go back to Congress and fight for a different bill, he simply signs the bill, and then issues a signing statement listing all the parts of the bill that he intends to ignore.
他没有回到国会争取不同的法案，而是简单地签署该法案，然后发布一份签署声明，列出该法案中他打算忽略的所有部分。
Earlier in the show we heard from a reporter, Charlie Savage, who won the Pulitzer Prize for reporting on these issues for the Boston Globe .
在节目的早些时候，我们听到了一位记者查理·萨维奇的发言，他因为《波士顿环球报》报道这些问题而获得了普利策奖。
He's also written a history of all the ways that the president has claimed powers that other presidents haven't claimed.
他还写下了总统以其他方式宣称拥有其他总统未曾拥有的权力的所有方式的历史。
A book called Takeover , it's just about come out in paperback.
一本叫《接管》的书即将出版平装本。
The quotes from George Will and the other conservatives that I read to you from the beginning of the show actually come from his book.
我从节目一开始就读给你们听的乔治·威尔和其他保守派人士的引言实际上来自他的书。
We were wondering what is going to happen next January, to this presidential style.
我们想知道明年一月这种总统风格会发生什么。
This unrelenting style.
这种不屈不挠的风格。
When the 44th president is sworn in.
当第44任总统宣誓就职时。
And Charlie Savage has interviewed the current candidates about where they stand on these questions of presidential power that we've been talking about.
查理·萨维奇采访了现任候选人，了解他们在我们一直在谈论的总统权力问题上的立场。
McCain, Clinton and Obama all had reservations about some of the things that the Bush administration has done.
麦凯恩、克林顿和奥巴马都对布什政府所做的一些事情持保留态度。
Some of the legal claims they've made.
他们提出的一些法律主张。
McCain, Clinton and Obama all seem to suggest that they would take a more restrained view of executive power when it came to the question of whether a president had to obey treaties that might restrict what he or she could do as commander-in-chief, and laws involving surveillance and interrogation.
麦凯恩、克林顿和奥巴马似乎都表示，当谈到总统是否必须遵守可能限制他或她作为总司令的行为的条约以及涉及监视和审讯的法律的问题时，他们会对行政权力采取更加克制的看法。
In marked contrast, I should say to, for example, the now defunct candidate Mitt Romney who embraced everything the Bush administration had done.
与此形成鲜明对比的是，我要对现已解散的候选人米特·罗姆尼说，他拥护布什政府所做的一切。
And had he become the republican nominee, I think we would have seen a much starker contrast between whoever the eventual Democrat is and the Republican.
如果他成为共和党候选人，我认为我们会看到最终的民主党人和共和党人之间的鲜明对比。
McCain, more restrained.
麦凯恩则更加克制。
On the other hand, there were some differences.
另一方面，也存在一些差异。
Sometimes in surprising ways.
有时以令人惊讶的方式。
For example, John McCain has said that he, if elected president, will never issue a signing statement.
例如，约翰·麦凯恩曾表示，如果当选总统，他将永远不会发表签署声明。
That he will only sign a bill or veto it.
他只会签署一项法案或否决它。
Period.
时期。
And both Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, while criticizing the Bush administration's rather aggressive use of signing statements, nevertheless say that they will keep using signing statements to reserve a right to bypass provisions of law that they say contradict the Constitution.
巴拉克·奥巴马(Barack Obama)和希拉里·克林顿(Hillary Clinton)虽然批评布什政府相当激进地使用签署声明，但都表示，他们将继续使用签署声明，以保留绕过他们认为与宪法相抵触的法律条款的权利。
Just less aggressively than Bush has done.
只是没有布什那样咄咄逼人。
The three candidates, where do they stand on the power to bypass laws in the way that the Bush administration has done.
这三位候选人的立场如何，他们有权力像布什政府那样绕过法律吗？
For example, the FISA law, which was signed to force the president to authorize any kind of wiretaps with a secret court before he did the wiretaps.
例如，外国情报监视法（FISA）的签署是为了迫使总统在进行窃听之前必须通过秘密法庭授权进行任何类型的窃听。
I asked all three of them whether they thought the president had inherent power, under the Constitution, to conduct surveillance for national security purposes without judicial warrants.
我问他们三人是否认为根据宪法，总统拥有固有权力，可以在没有司法授权的情况下出于国家安全目的进行监视。
Even if a federal statute said a judicial warrant was necessary.
即使联邦法规规定必须有司法令状。
And all three of them said that they did not think a president had that power.
他们三人都表示，他们认为总统没有这种权力。
John McCain said, I don't think the president has the right to disobey any law.
约翰·麦凯恩说，我认为总统没有权利违反任何法律。
Now the problem with these questions is that there's still a lot of unanswered questions embedded in an answer like, I don't think the president has the right to disobey any law.
现在这些问题的问题在于，答案中仍然存在很多未解答的问题，例如，我不认为总统有权违反任何法律。
The Bush administration might say that superficially too, but what they contend is that the statute that restricts the president's actions is not a law at all, because it's unconstitutional insofar as it restricts the president's constitutional powers.
布什政府也许表面上也这么说，但他们主张的是，限制总统行为的法规根本不是法律，因为它限制了总统的宪法权力，因此是违宪的。
And, therefore, is just a bunch of words on a page, but it's not law.
因此，这只是一页纸上的一堆文字，但这不是法律。
What did the candidates say about the power to disobey or ignore treaties that the US has already signed?
候选人对于违反或无视美国已签署条约的权力有何看法？
McCain and Obama and Clinton all indicated that they took a mainstream understanding that a ratified treaty was binding on the executive.
麦凯恩、奥巴马和克林顿都表示，他们的主流观点是批准的条约对行政部门具有约束力。
And the question, of course, will be how does that carry over once they're in office?
当然，问题是，一旦他们上任，这种情况将如何延续？
Once they're not being judged by voters, but are instead being forced to govern in difficult circumstances.
一旦他们不再受到选民的评判，而是被迫在困难的环境下执政。
One of the things that's interesting about this as well is that Senator McCain's campaign legal advisers now are headed up by Ted Olson, who was a key player in the Bush administration's legal team.
有趣的事情之一是，麦凯恩参议员的竞选法律顾问现在由特德·奥尔森领导，他是布什政府法律团队的关键人物。
He was the Solicitor General.
他是副检察长。
Ted Olson has been part of a movement that has adopted a much broader view of a president's power.
特德·奥尔森参与了一场对总统权力采取更广泛看法的运动。
And so it's one thing for a president to say, as a general matter, I think these things are binding.
因此，总统说，总的来说，我认为这些事情具有约束力是一回事。
But a lot of the lifting here happens several layers lower in the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel, in the White House Counsel's office, in day-to-day matters and legal memos that are complicated, and that may never come to the president's attention.
但这里的很多工作都发生在司法部法律顾问办公室、白宫法律顾问办公室的低几层，涉及复杂的日常事务和法律备忘录，这些可能永远不会引起总统的注意。
And so who the president hires, I think, will also have enormous implications for whether these trends continue, or are stabilized, or even are rolled back.
因此，我认为，总统聘用谁也将对这些趋势是否持续、稳定、甚至回落产生巨大影响。
Are there other questions that you asked the candidates?
您还向候选人询问过其他问题吗？
One thing that was interesting is I asked them whether they believed that the Constitution allows a president to imprison a US citizen without trial or charges.
有趣的一件事是我问他们是否相信宪法允许总统未经审判或指控而监禁美国公民。
And what's interesting about that question is that the Supreme Court, in the case of Yaser Hamdi, and the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals in the case of Jose Padilla, have said yes, you can be held perpetually.
这个问题有趣的是，最高法院在亚瑟·哈姆迪案中和第四巡回上诉法院在何塞·帕迪拉案中都表示，是的，你可以被永久关押。
And so when I asked the candidates whether they thought that the Constitution allowed that kind of perpetual, executive detention, McCain pointed to that precedent.
因此，当我问候选人是否认为宪法允许这种永久的行政拘留时，麦凯恩指出了这个先例。
And Obama and Clinton said, no, they didn't think the Constitution allowed that.
奥巴马和克林顿说，不，他们认为宪法不允许这样做。
Which is interesting because now we have courts that have said, yes, it does allow that.
这很有趣，因为现在我们的法院已经表示，是的，它确实允许这样做。
There have been 20 presidential debates on the Democratic side.
民主党方面已经进行了 20 场总统辩论。
And fewer on the Republican side, but still, a lot.
共和党方面的人数较少，但仍然很多。
It's been a year of campaigning.
这是竞选活动的一年。
Do you believe you've seen much discussion of these issues at all?
您相信您已经看到过很多关于这些问题的讨论吗？
There's been virtually no discussion of these constitutional issues.
实际上没有对这些宪法问题进行讨论。
It's something that everyone should be paying attention to.
这是每个人都应该关注的事情。
And the changes over the last seven or eight years have been so dramatic that what the next president does with the legacy they will inherit from the Bush administration will be enormously important.
过去七八年的变化是如此巨大，下一任总统如何利用他们从布什政府继承的遗产将变得非常重要。
If the next president keeps exercising these powers, they will become further embedded in our system, and that will just be how our democracy works going forward.
如果下一任总统继续行使这些权力，它们将进一步融入我们的体系，而这正是我们民主制度未来的运作方式。
Is it your sense that one of the reasons why this is not become a more active issue in the presidential debate is because most people simply don't understand the kinds of powers the president has been claiming for himself?
您是否认为这在总统辩论中没有成为一个更活跃的问题的原因之一是因为大多数人根本不理解总统一直为自己主张的权力类型？
I think that's right.
我认为这是对的。
I think that most people who don't pay attention to this stuff on a day-to-day basis, it's a little bit abstract.
我认为大多数人在日常生活中不关注这些东西，这有点抽象。
In a way, it's a very abstract.
从某种意义上说，这是非常抽象的。
But in a way, I have to say, it's the most basic thing in the world.
但在某种程度上，我不得不说，这是世界上最基本的事情。
It's does the president think he's above the law?
总统认为他凌驾于法律之上吗？
It is.
这是。
It is and it isn't, because, of course, the Bush administration's legal theories is all about what is the law?
是的，也不是，因为，当然，布什政府的法律理论都是关于什么是法律？
They say, of course, the president's not above the law.
他们说，当然，总统不能凌驾于法律之上。
But in their view, the law is not a statute that Congress has passed and that a president had signed.
但在他们看来，该法律并不是国会通过、总统签署的法规。
But the law is this unwritten, sweeping, inherent, undefined, constitutional powers of the president as commander-in-chief to do whatever he or she thinks is necessary in any given moment to protect national security at his or her own discretion.
但法律是总统作为总司令的不成文的、全面的、固有的、未定义的宪法权力，可以在任何特定时刻自行决定采取他或她认为必要的任何行动来保护国家安全。
That's the "law" quote, unquote.
这是“法律”引用，未引用。
The semantics here quickly become easily clouded.
这里的语义很快就变得很容易变得模糊。
It's very easy for a legal team to write a scholarly seeming brief that says the law is not what the law appears to be, the law is whatever the president wants to do at any given moment.
对于一个法律团队来说，写一份看似学术的摘要是很容易的，它说法律并不像法律看起来的那样，法律是总统在任何特定时刻想要做的任何事情。
And here's a bunch of cites, and here's a bunch of pages, and this memo is never going to see the light of day, but now you are cleared, sir, to proceed and do whatever it is you want.
这里有一堆引用，这里有很多页，这份备忘录永远不会见诸天日，但现在你已经被清除了，先生，可以继续做你想做的任何事情。
And no one will ever be prosecuted for it because we've decided it's legal.
没有人会因此受到起诉，因为我们认为这是合法的。
That's certainly what this administration did over and over and over again.
这当然是本届政府一遍又一遍地做的事情。
And there's very little to prevent future administrations of either party from doing that going forward.
几乎没有什么可以阻止任何一方未来的政府继续这样做。
In fact, it's easier now than it was before because of all the precedents that have been established during the past seven or eight years.
事实上，由于过去七八年中已经建立了所有先例，现在比以前更容易。
Charlie Savage, author of the book Takeover .
查理·萨维奇，《接管》一书的作者。
Our program was produced today by Jane Feltes and myself, with Alex Blumber, John Jeter, Sarah Koenig, Lisa Pollak, Robyn Semien, Alyssa Shipp and Nancy Updike.
今天我们的节目由 Jane Feltes 和我本人以及 Alex Blumber、John Jeter、Sarah Koenig、Lisa Pollak、Robyn Semien、Alyssa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 共同制作。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Adrianne Mathiowetz runs our website.
阿德琳娜·马修韦茨 (Adrianne Mathiowetz) 负责运营我们的网站。
Production help from Seth Lind and Emily Youssef Music help from Jessica Hopper
Seth Lind 和 Emily Youssef 提供制作帮助 Jessica Hopper 提供音乐帮助
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, www.thisamericanlife.org.
[致谢] 我们的网站 www.thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight for our program by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia.
[资金来源] 我们的老板 Torey Malatia 先生对 WBEZ 项目进行了管理监督。
He looks out over the pledge room, at the money come in and rubs his hands together like Golem, saying,
他望向承诺室，看到钱进来，像石巨人一样搓着手，说道：
It's my property, I paid for it.
这是我的财产，我付了钱。
It belongs to me.
它属于我。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week, with more stories of This American Life .
下周将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。